#emc | Logs for 2007-03-21

[00:01:53] <jepler> a-l-p-h-a: it was pasta with garden tomato sauce and grilled tofu
[00:06:37] <jepler> hm net2hal does a crappy job when running from an arrow-less HAL file
[00:06:44] <a-l-p-h-a> jepler, that sounds yummy.
[00:12:20] <jepler> a-l-p-h-a: it was
[00:19:33] <robin_sz> mmm tofu
[00:22:23] <robin_sz> a-l-p-h-a, you foound the defintion of a circular-mil-foot OK?
[00:22:38] <robin_sz> a wire 0.001" diameter, a foot long
[00:23:34] <cradek> robin_sz: what I'm trying to figure out is if my wire is .0006 dia and it measures 16kohm, about how long is it?
[00:23:41] <cradek> .0006 inch
[00:24:10] <cradek> then the next thing I want to figure out is where to get some #54 wire for less than $9000 a lb
[00:24:35] <robin_sz> well, thats easy
[00:24:44] <cradek> which part?
[00:24:50] <robin_sz> the length
[00:26:34] <robin_sz> 4286 feet, roughly
[00:28:19] <robin_sz> sorry,
[00:28:20] <robin_sz> thats worng
[00:28:22] <cradek> hmm, other information I have says it's actually more like 370 ft
[00:28:30] <cradek> oh good :-)
[00:28:31] <robin_sz> 555.4 feet
[00:28:46] <cradek> aha, more like it
[00:29:19] <robin_sz> csa is 0.36 circular mils
[00:29:54] <robin_sz> so 28.8 ohms per foot
[00:30:09] <robin_sz> 16000 28.8 / p
[00:31:30] <jepler> oh hey -- 'circularmil' is actually in units.dat
[00:31:35] <cradek> sorry, it's .00062 dia, this page says it's .384 cmils
[00:31:37] <cradek> oh!
[00:32:00] <jepler> circularmil 1|4 pi mil^2 # area of one-mil diameter circle
[00:32:00] <robin_sz> yep
[00:32:28] <robin_sz> 27 ohms per foot
[00:32:49] <robin_sz> 592 feet
[00:33:42] <robin_sz> round here, 1 mil means "one millimetre"
[00:33:47] <robin_sz> crazy mercans
[00:34:00] <cradek> won't get any argument from me about that
[00:34:10] <jepler> robin_sz: same here, but the millimeter is 1 inch long ad there are 12 of them in a meter, which is called the foot
[00:34:19] <jepler> er, no, that's not right
[00:34:24] <cradek> jepler: 36 in a meter
[00:34:24] <jepler> there are 4 gallons in a quart
[00:34:27] <jepler> oh forget it
[00:34:46] <robin_sz> how many pecks in a barrel?
[00:35:03] <cradek> when in doubt: guess 4, 12 or 60
[00:35:05] <jepler> cradek: wiregauge is a length (diameter), so wouldn't it be .25 wiregauge(54)^2 = .122 circularmil?
[00:35:05] <ejholmgren> depends on the beak size
[00:35:37] <jepler> barrel / peck = 18.04607
[00:35:40] <cradek> jepler: not according to a wire manufacturer's website
[00:35:40] <jepler> * jepler groans
[00:35:58] <robin_sz> you know how they make wire?
[00:36:07] <jepler> cradek: but they agree it's .00062 inch (diameter?)?
[00:36:10] <robin_sz> pulling it through a diamond die
[00:36:12] <cradek> from bigger wire
[00:36:17] <cradek> jepler: yes
[00:36:29] <robin_sz> now ... you know how they make the diamond die?
[00:36:43] <robin_sz> very very slowly, with a diamond and a needls
[00:36:45] <cradek> piercing it with wire, I suppose
[00:36:45] <robin_sz> needle
[00:36:59] <cradek> yep
[00:37:09] <robin_sz> they wear out many needles, but eventually they get a hole ...
[00:37:12] <ejholmgren> is anyone familiar with the 2:1 rule for linear drives?
[00:37:13] <robin_sz> takes weeks
[00:37:25] <robin_sz> well, USED to take weeks ...
[00:37:43] <cradek> 1 circular mil = 0.000000785398175 sq.in.
[00:37:47] <robin_sz> $ friend visited his die maker recently ... the rows of needle machines had gone ...
[00:37:53] <robin_sz> replaced ...
[00:37:55] <ejholmgren> seems that most don't designs don't take that into consideration
[00:37:56] <cradek> 1 cir. mil = (0.001" ÷ 2) x (0.001" ÷ 2) x 3.1415927
[00:38:08] <robin_sz> by some clever laser machine ...
[00:38:17] <robin_sz> diamond die in $seconds
[00:38:59] <robin_sz> ejholmgren, 2:1 rule?
[00:39:50] <ejholmgren> length between the linear bearings in x and y
[00:39:58] <ejholmgren> in relation to the direction of the driving frce
[00:40:05] <robin_sz> oh that
[00:40:17] <ejholmgren> to reduce binding
[00:40:37] <cradek> jepler: ah, you forgot your pi
[00:41:05] <ejholmgren> it seems that most gantry systems ignore that rule
[00:41:11] <robin_sz> mmm
[00:41:18] <robin_sz> mine dont
[00:42:15] <jepler> cradek: ah, now I get the right answer
[00:42:18] <robin_sz> never more than twice as tall as it is deep
[00:42:45] <ejholmgren> I thought that rule refered to the x y plane
[00:43:20] <robin_sz> it refers to anyh plane
[00:43:32] <robin_sz> 2:1 ratio, spacing to height
[00:43:41] <ejholmgren> ie. the longitudinal distance should be twice the lateral distance
[00:43:47] <robin_sz> nah
[00:43:54] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, you may know... how does one square up a grantry easily on a lathe?
[00:44:12] <robin_sz> a-l-p-h-a, test bar
[00:44:30] <ejholmgren> robin_sz: good to know
[00:44:38] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, umm... like drill rod?
[00:44:57] <robin_sz> a-l-p-h-a, can be ... with a DTI
[00:45:25] <robin_sz> a-l-p-h-a, also do a test bar and turn it with a .003" cut
[00:45:30] <robin_sz> than mic it up
[00:45:44] <robin_sz> needs to be stress relieved steel bar realy
[00:45:54] <a-l-p-h-a> I really really really should buy a micrometer... all I have are calipres, test dial indicators, and a dial indicator.
[00:46:14] <robin_sz> ejholmgren, looking at the SIDE of the gantry .. like an A shape
[00:46:29] <robin_sz> X axis running like this ... ________A______
[00:46:43] <robin_sz> Y is going away from us ..
[00:47:03] <robin_sz> the height of the A should be no more than twice the width of the base
[00:47:52] <robin_sz> a-l-p-h-a, a DTI can be enough with a decent turned bar
[00:48:29] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, thanks. dunno why I had a complete brain fart on how to square it up.
[00:50:35] <robin_sz> remember to aliogn the tialstock to the headstock too :)
[00:50:55] <a-l-p-h-a> there is no adjustments with my tailstock...
[00:51:16] <a-l-p-h-a> oddly enough... schaublin didn't make my tail stock adjustable.
[00:52:35] <robin_sz> sure?
[00:52:41] <robin_sz> * robin_sz doubts it
[00:52:47] <robin_sz> usually shims
[00:54:21] <robin_sz> check if the top of the tailstoc can be removed and shimmed up ...
[00:54:25] <robin_sz> it usuallyucan
[00:54:51] <robin_sz> night ...
[00:55:06] <cradek> thanks for the wire help
[01:27:09] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, nope. there is none... I'd have to shim it from the bottom.
[01:28:36] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.cinematechnic.com/tools/schaublin.html <-- this one does... mine doesn't.
[01:52:16] <toastydeath> all of the mills at school are out of tram
[01:52:24] <toastydeath> looks like i found out what i will be doing for the next couple class periods
[02:34:48] <crepincdotcom> did anyone else time out?
[02:37:03] <unter_e> how about that emc!
[02:37:25] <crepincdotcom> * crepincdotcom is using it as we speak
[02:37:33] <crepincdotcom> well, its running my mill, im over here
[02:39:06] <skunkworks> I think your over there. not over here.
[02:40:09] <wallyGL> hi everyone.. can i ask a simple question.. is it possible to move the spindle while emc is in pause? possibly to clean up the work piece or something...
[02:41:07] <cradek> not really, you have to abort the program
[02:41:24] <crepincdotcom> skunkworks: point taken
[02:41:43] <wallyGL> i see.. thanks cradek..
[02:41:56] <cradek> to restart, you can use 'run from line' though
[02:42:17] <cradek> but you have to be very careful and understand what's going on
[02:44:16] <wallyGL> how do i 'run from line' using axis? i dont see that option
[02:45:08] <cradek> you select the line in the gcode, then 'run from line' in the menu
[03:05:34] <crepincdotcom> cradek: sometimes when i use the Eagle scripts, it puts the holes off center of the pad, even though the holes are centered in eagle. is this something you've obvserved?
[03:14:12] <cradek> are they off center in AXIS (click the Z view)?
[03:16:07] <crepincdotcom> no they aren't. but when i load the drilling file, somehow it either a) forgets where it is and moves about 0.03", or the mill somehow moves...
[03:16:14] <crepincdotcom> its only ever the y'axis that does it though
[03:16:18] <crepincdotcom> which confuses me
[03:16:51] <cradek> your crappy steppers strike again?
[03:16:55] <cradek> you must be losing position
[03:17:36] <crepincdotcom> 1) i dont understand why its just one axis 2) thats like 20-30 full steps
[03:17:48] <crepincdotcom> i mean hey I'll be the first to admiut my setup sucks
[03:18:06] <crepincdotcom> i just want to understand which part is causing this suckage, so i can fix it / not make that mistake in the future
[03:18:47] <unter_e> can you switch drives between axes?
[03:18:58] <SWPadnos> crepincdotcom, when you load the drilling file, do you also change the tool in the spindle (like from a V cutter to a drill)?
[03:19:13] <cradek> mark a zero position on the shafts with a magic marker, see if you get back to the right place after running a long job
[03:19:19] <crepincdotcom> SWPadnos: yes. but i leave the driver on and everything. I just home the z-axis
[03:19:34] <crepincdotcom> cradek: ok, good idea
[03:19:37] <SWPadnos> the spindle or spindle mount may have a problem
[03:19:42] <crepincdotcom> unter_e: not easily
[03:19:42] <unter_e> are they all off the same amount?
[03:19:51] <crepincdotcom> unter_e: yes
[03:20:09] <crepincdotcom> i cant see how the spindle could move in the y-direction, but that is an idea
[03:20:17] <crepincdotcom> because I am applying force to it to tighten the new bit
[03:20:33] <SWPadnos> depends on the setup, but it's possible some nut isn't tight enough or something
[03:21:06] <unter_e> backlash
[03:21:25] <crepincdotcom> the spindle doesnt move in the y so now backlash
[03:21:32] <crepincdotcom> *no
[03:21:47] <tomp> if spindle isnt square to table in ZY, then it would be a function of distance in z
[03:22:39] <tomp> spin an indicator and look for 0 tir on the surface
[03:22:42] <crepincdotcom> tomp: i've checked that the table is normal to Z as best I can. and I found that it is.
[03:23:52] <tomp> then thats not the problem :) try a program that eagle doesnt generate, somethng by hand in a scrap sheet
[03:24:02] <unter_e> heh, I was looking at your website, and I was about to ask if z was out of parallel
[03:24:38] <crepincdotcom> hm this Y-motor appears to have just about had it
[03:24:42] <crepincdotcom> *sigh* thats likely the issue
[03:24:56] <unter_e> nice mouse pad
[03:26:00] <unter_e> what's the wing in the top picture off of?
[03:26:34] <crepincdotcom> my RC plane
[03:26:34] <tomp> and z axis travel is different from spindle centerline ( should be same but not neccesarily the same ) if you spin an indicator on table and on top of 123 block, and both are 0 then its pretty good
[03:26:46] <crepincdotcom> 123 block?
[03:27:02] <tomp> 1" x 2" x 3" a standard tool
[03:27:26] <tomp> ground as well as a precision vise
[03:27:45] <tomp> how did you check this 'normal'
[03:28:41] <unter_e> the problem with normal is that it always gets worse
[03:29:02] <tomp> ;) i think he means the geometric normal to a surface
[03:29:41] <unter_e> I just threw that quote in for our Canadian friends
[03:30:19] <tomp> wait, he's seen something not right in the Y axis drive?
[03:30:29] <unter_e> that's what he just said
[03:30:47] <unter_e> if you look at his steppers ....
[03:31:07] <crepincdotcom> tomp: i checked it to be normal by running a V bit across a board in X and Y and checking width of the line (a function of depth)
[03:31:40] <crepincdotcom> the Y-axis motor gets angry if you run it into the end of the axis... which I end up doing fairly often since the Y axis is only 1.75"
[03:32:10] <unter_e> http://www2.crepinc.com/projects/cnc/y-motormount.jpg
[03:32:58] <unter_e> did you take that thing out of the printer with a hammer?
[03:33:11] <crepincdotcom> no
[03:33:17] <crepincdotcom> its not bent or broken at all
[03:33:19] <crepincdotcom> its just cheap
[03:33:24] <unter_e> nice little mill though
[03:33:32] <unter_e> probably worth finding better steppers
[03:33:43] <unter_e> definitely worth it
[03:33:52] <crepincdotcom> someday
[03:35:59] <tomp> well your technique seems to be finer than the .030" error but i'd tram the head a bit differently.
[03:36:08] <tomp> even without a dial indicator, use a pointed stick. chuck up a piece of coat hangar and bend it so it almost touches the left rear corner of the table.
[03:36:10] <tomp> spin it gently and look at the other 3 corners. ( or slide a known thickness under it at each of the 4 corners while spindle is at ctr of both travels )
[03:36:35] <crepincdotcom> hm ok
[03:37:57] <tomp> the measuring to the extreme corner increases the 'accuracy' of the measurement ( not sure that word can be used here ;) i doubt this will show you are way off from your description, but it may get you closer.
[03:38:21] <crepincdotcom> ok
[03:38:29] <tomp> and precision is really making all the little things right.
[03:38:30] <toastydeath> what is going on here?
[03:39:03] <unter_e> we were talking about you, but I guess that has to stop
[03:39:17] <toastydeath> oh noes
[03:39:18] <tomp> hole centers seen to be .030" off in Y direction.
[03:39:45] <toastydeath> on the top of the surface or on the bottom
[03:39:54] <ejholmgren> holy mini-mill batman
[03:40:05] <tomp> in a thin plate
[03:40:09] <tomp> pcb
[03:40:20] <toastydeath> we'll call that the top then
[03:40:26] <toastydeath> what's the suspect
[03:40:32] <ejholmgren> what oz/inch are those steppers?
[03:40:54] <unter_e> not sure those are the right units
[03:40:58] <tomp> just tried to check if spindle and ram was sqr to table
[03:41:24] <toastydeath> that tends to help
[03:41:39] <toastydeath> what are you using to check squareness
[03:41:47] <crepincdotcom> i was using a v bit
[03:41:53] <crepincdotcom> apperently thats not kosher
[03:41:58] <toastydeath> use a test indicator
[03:42:11] <crepincdotcom> im lacking in that dept
[03:42:16] <tomp> crepincdotcom: i think a simple non-eagle program will help debugging ( he doesnt have indicator )
[03:42:18] <toastydeath> then you're never going to get it square
[03:42:30] <crepincdotcom> tomp: good point
[03:42:37] <crepincdotcom> toastydeath: glad you have faith
[03:42:44] <toastydeath> it's not a matter of faith
[03:42:57] <toastydeath> it's a matter of having experience in truing spindles to tables
[03:42:59] <tomp> hey, ancient egyptians machinists got thiers square
[03:43:10] <unter_e> no they didn't
[03:43:14] <toastydeath> ancient egyptians didn't have machinists
[03:43:21] <toastydeath> and they didn't work to thousandths
[03:43:41] <unter_e> how do you make a right angle with a chisel?
[03:43:43] <ejholmgren> thousands of deaths
[03:44:01] <toastydeath> re: chisel
[03:44:05] <tomp> with a flat thing and another rt angle
[03:44:10] <toastydeath> years of experience
[03:44:21] <toastydeath> yes, but you have to verify your flat thing and right angle
[03:44:30] <unter_e> I always wondered how they do it a Moore tool
[03:44:32] <toastydeath> and still, it's not accurate enough
[03:44:45] <toastydeath> unter_e: ?
[03:44:59] <tomp> thats a masonic 'secret' flat thing is easy, and rt angle requires another and look for daylight over along distance
[03:45:33] <unter_e> flat is easy
[03:45:34] <crepincdotcom> on that note
[03:45:45] <toastydeath> get a test indicator
[03:45:54] <crepincdotcom> this board for my freinds senior thesis is done, and i need to get up early and try to pass some schoolwork
[03:45:59] <toastydeath> for setting up machines, there's no substitute
[03:46:08] <crepincdotcom> i dont have $$ until summer at least
[03:46:15] <crepincdotcom> which is why the servos are crap
[03:46:25] <toastydeath> then my reccomendation to you is program all your holes .030 off on the y axis
[03:46:34] <crepincdotcom> its not a constant
[03:46:37] <crepincdotcom> it wanders
[03:46:44] <crepincdotcom> ill deal with it
[03:46:51] <crepincdotcom> itll just take some time
[03:46:53] <unter_e> not tramming then
[03:47:04] <toastydeath> wandering is a different issue, but tramming it is the first step to resolving that
[03:47:13] <crepincdotcom> what is tramming
[03:47:22] <toastydeath> making the machine square with refrence to itself
[03:47:26] <crepincdotcom> ahh
[03:47:40] <crepincdotcom> its a fairly expensive comercial machine, i think its fairly accurate
[03:47:48] <unter_e> are you an engineer?
[03:47:49] <toastydeath> no machine comes squared.
[03:48:12] <crepincdotcom> unter_e: im an electrical engineer... in school. i do a lot of ME things but i dont have many ME classes
[03:48:21] <toastydeath> you have to set up 300,000 dollar turning centers, you definately have to set up a 5000 dollar desktop mill
[03:48:24] <unter_e> I'm wondering if there is a shop you can use that would have a test indicator
[03:48:25] <toastydeath> *center
[03:48:35] <toastydeath> most schools have a machine shop
[03:48:41] <toastydeath> hidden, usually
[03:48:42] <crepincdotcom> im in one right now
[03:48:44] <toastydeath> but they usually have one
[03:48:55] <toastydeath> ask to borrow a test indicator and a tramming bar
[03:48:56] <crepincdotcom> we have $100000 cnc machines
[03:49:07] <unter_e> but no test indicator?
[03:49:10] <toastydeath> we have about 20 100,000 dollar cnc machines
[03:49:12] <crepincdotcom> they get the company to come once a month and check everything :-/
[03:49:12] <toastydeath> and several test indicators =)
[03:49:15] <crepincdotcom> I will ask around though
[03:49:29] <tomp> crepincdotcom: best of luck, a shorter stroke can increase rigidity ( if thats part of 'wandering' )
[03:49:33] <crepincdotcom> we have 7 large CNC mills and 6 cnc lathres
[03:49:36] <crepincdotcom> *lathes
[03:49:43] <crepincdotcom> tomp: thank you again
[03:49:43] <unter_e> what size are those motors?
[03:49:47] <crepincdotcom> unter_e: in my mill?
[03:49:51] <unter_e> yes
[03:50:03] <toastydeath> is there any backlash
[03:50:03] <unter_e> mounting circle wise
[03:50:06] <crepincdotcom> uh... 2.4" diameter
[03:50:14] <toastydeath> in your screws
[03:50:19] <crepincdotcom> toastydeath: not that i can measure. again its a commercial table
[03:50:24] <toastydeath> push it
[03:50:26] <toastydeath> and pull it
[03:50:28] <toastydeath> see if it slides
[03:50:32] <crepincdotcom> i do
[03:50:37] <crepincdotcom> and i cant feel it slide
[03:50:40] <toastydeath> cool
[03:50:49] <unter_e> it looks like a nice little mill
[03:50:49] <toastydeath> with small motors sometimes the table can wander around
[03:51:00] <toastydeath> and force the ballscrews to turn
[03:51:16] <crepincdotcom> theyre 1mm/rev so the pitch ir pretty high
[03:51:24] <crepincdotcom> i cant turn the screw by hand when they're holding
[03:51:34] <toastydeath> good
[03:51:45] <crepincdotcom> night
[03:51:46] <crepincdotcom> * crepincdotcom &
[03:51:48] <toastydeath> cya
[03:51:58] <tomp> nite
[03:52:15] <unter_e> http://www2.crepinc.com/projects/cnc/whole-setup.jpg
[03:53:02] <unter_e> tramming is going to be a pain
[03:53:20] <toastydeath> ?
[03:53:28] <unter_e> tiny table
[03:53:28] <toastydeath> why?
[03:53:38] <toastydeath> you can tram it with that
[03:53:55] <unter_e> he said the travel is less than 2"
[03:53:57] <toastydeath> if someone really cares about getting things dead level, you use a test standard
[03:54:01] <tomp> yeh not much to work with, .030 is big for such a small machine ( huge for that machine )
[03:54:12] <toastydeath> and an indicator
[03:54:15] <toastydeath> don't even need to move any axis
[03:54:21] <unter_e> of course, I see no reason to expect it to be square
[03:54:24] <toastydeath> lol
[03:54:31] <toastydeath> i concur
[03:54:57] <unter_e> I thought about buying one of those, but it's the same old problem
[03:55:19] <unter_e> why do you need another mill? the 6000lb monstrosity in the basement doesn't work
[03:55:26] <tomp> never seen that one, little plastic sliding way covers, cute
[03:55:53] <toastydeath> the only way i'd consider a mill that small is if it was a cast iron bridge mill
[03:56:34] <unter_e> a good mill that small would cost almost as much as a full size knee mill
[03:56:55] <toastydeath> and a full size knee mill costs as much as a good full size bed mill
[03:57:05] <toastydeath> THE CYCLE CONTINUES
[03:57:15] <unter_e> we are DOOMED!
[03:58:05] <unter_e> the way my vision is going, I need to work on large projects anyway
[03:58:10] <toastydeath> hahaha
[03:58:39] <toastydeath> i re-trammed a bridgeport at school today
[03:58:45] <toastydeath> someone crashed it pretty hard or something
[03:58:56] <tomp> he does nice stuff with the tools he has. esp if he has to work on his bed!
[03:58:56] <toastydeath> it was .060 out in X
[03:59:02] <toastydeath> and something ridic in Y
[03:59:12] <unter_e> if my mill needs to be re-trammed in the y direction, it's time to pull out the scraper
[03:59:12] <toastydeath> i was like, "why is my face mill cutting twice"
[03:59:26] <ejholmgren> was he using a piece of steel plate as a mousepad? O_o
[03:59:34] <unter_e> aluminum
[03:59:39] <toastydeath> dude that is hardcore
[03:59:40] <toastydeath> i am so doing that
[03:59:52] <unter_e> I complimented him on that back a ways
[03:59:55] <toastydeath> put a nice bevel on it
[04:00:10] <unter_e> I bet it would be perfect for an optical mouse
[04:00:10] <ejholmgren> guess the comforter was out of the question
[04:00:23] <unter_e> the bed would stink as a mouse pad
[04:00:30] <tomp> use a cast iron lapping plate, the cross hatch keeps the mouse alligned
[04:00:34] <toastydeath> and now, "i sleep on a surface plate" ejholmgren
[04:00:49] <unter_e> although at work I use my leg for a mousepad more often that I like
[04:01:03] <ejholmgren> imagine wakinging up screaming in pain when you realize alu chips are embeded all over your body
[04:01:39] <ejholmgren> I hope that vac system works damn well ;)
[04:01:39] <unter_e> I had a friend that only had just enough bed to sleep on
[04:01:48] <unter_e> the rest was covered with computers
[04:02:21] <toastydeath> hey wait
[04:02:28] <toastydeath> did we ask him if he was trying to drill while ON the bed
[04:02:39] <unter_e> I thought about that
[04:02:58] <tomp> i asked him to tram at 2 heights
[04:03:16] <unter_e> does the bed really affect things?
[04:03:56] <tomp> oh, THAT bed
[04:04:03] <toastydeath> yeah, it does
[04:04:11] <tomp> bendy frame
[04:04:18] <toastydeath> how he has the motor hanging off the side
[04:04:33] <unter_e> my assumption was that it is stiff enough to withstand it
[04:04:35] <toastydeath> i bet if the machine shifts on the bed, there's enough jostle to twist the frame a bit
[04:04:49] <unter_e> I thought the same
[04:05:09] <unter_e> problem with those little mills, the motors just dwarf them
[04:05:31] <toastydeath> i would just attach the motor to the frame
[04:05:34] <toastydeath> and use a long leadscrew
[04:05:39] <toastydeath> ballscrew, whatever
[04:06:02] <unter_e> one of them has gotta be hanging off a moving axis
[04:06:08] <toastydeath> nah
[04:06:14] <toastydeath> hanging off, no
[04:06:16] <toastydeath> moving, yes
[04:06:20] <tomp> i dont think he cut on the bed, he's pretty neat/clean.
[04:06:42] <unter_e> he probably was just setting things up there, he was in a lab tonight
[04:07:07] <unter_e> good thing he's on a geeky campus
[04:07:31] <unter_e> hey boy, whatcha got there, a cute little mill?
[04:07:50] <unter_e> penn state cops would have him jacked up before he could say "test indicator"
[04:08:01] <toastydeath> IT'S A BOMB
[04:08:08] <unter_e> it's a hoax device
[04:08:14] <cradek> HE'S A TEARIST
[04:08:22] <tomp> its an ugly cop attractor, sir
[04:08:44] <unter_e> campus cops here work for the state police, really stupid way of doing things
[04:10:18] <unter_e> tramming is a really good idea
[04:10:24] <toastydeath> he should put LEDs of ignignokt and err on the mill
[04:10:26] <toastydeath> blinking
[04:10:45] <unter_e> stick figures strictly banned
[04:14:20] <unter_e> can I listen to internet radio on my milling machine?
[04:15:10] <tomp> yes, xmms will do that, while you mill
[04:15:26] <tomp> i listen to fabcat, ( goon show )
[04:15:37] <unter_e> I'm listening to Pandora
[04:16:28] <tomp> bbc is good, but i use mplayer to get rtsp streams
[04:17:28] <unter_e> I guess once I get more confident I might try it
[04:20:14] <toastydeath> i prefer amarok
[04:20:21] <toastydeath> instead of xmms
[04:20:36] <tomp> try this in a terminal ( it'll take a while to get enuf of the stream loaded before it begins playing ) mplayer rtsp://rmv8.bbc.net.uk/bbc7/0800_mon.ra
[04:21:16] <tomp> goon show is where monty python came from ( imo )
[04:23:46] <unter_e> no mplayer
[04:24:08] <a-l-p-h-a> life of brian
[04:28:43] <unter_e> standard template library can really generate some robust error messages
[04:28:55] <unter_e> I just got an error message that was 15 lines long
[04:30:47] <toastydeath> ever had xorg fail to start?
[04:31:03] <toastydeath> i love how linux errors are all "war and peace"
[04:32:14] <unter_e> xorg is X windows?
[04:32:25] <toastydeath> yeah
[04:32:31] <unter_e> I've had X fail to start on a number of occasions
[04:32:42] <unter_e> used to fail on the font path
[04:32:52] <unter_e> now that was annoying
[04:32:59] <toastydeath> lol
[04:33:10] <unter_e> how does a path change since the last time you used the computer?
[04:33:25] <toastydeath> voodoo linux magic
[04:33:34] <unter_e> those sneaky fonts, always moving
[04:34:08] <unter_e> here's some windows voodoo
[04:34:22] <unter_e> my daughter's computer has a problem, I call gateway support
[04:34:49] <unter_e> we're installing some drivers, and bill gates starts putting up message boxes that ask me to reboot
[04:35:18] <unter_e> I'm having a hard time not screaming at the gateway guy as it is
[04:35:38] <toastydeath> haha.
[04:35:55] <unter_e> "your computer has been upgraded, would you like me to enrage you some more now, or later?"
[04:36:39] <unter_e> don't think I'll be buying any more gateways though
[04:37:27] <unter_e> never had Dell tell me they were going to send a part, and then totally drop it like it never happened
[04:38:42] <toastydeath> i've had problems with every vendor
[04:38:45] <toastydeath> i used to work in IT
[04:39:04] <unter_e> the dells we have been getting are really pieces of junk
[04:39:14] <toastydeath> lol
[04:39:54] <unter_e> I should reserve judgment, the newer ones seem better
[04:40:11] <unter_e> we got some a little over a year ago that are worthless
[04:40:21] <unter_e> high end machines too
[04:40:38] <toastydeath> time to roll your own!
[04:40:41] <unter_e> the low end ones have been stinkers for a while
[04:40:50] <unter_e> that's what I do for myself
[04:40:58] <unter_e> I can't afford to do that at work
[04:41:36] <unter_e> and the daughter had to have a convertible notebook/tablet
[04:41:44] <unter_e> the gateway is the only affordable one
[04:42:39] <toastydeath> you should have told her to die in a fire
[04:42:43] <toastydeath> except using different words
[04:42:53] <toastydeath> different, kinder words
[04:43:18] <unter_e> I like to encourage her artistic side
[04:43:21] <toastydeath> i do not know of any tablets that work very well
[04:43:27] <toastydeath> then again i do not go looking for pain
[04:43:37] <toastydeath> so i am not up on the latest trends in malfunctioning
[04:43:38] <unter_e> she loved it for 2 months
[04:43:43] <unter_e> then the pen started going bad
[04:44:37] <ejholmgren> gah, $2 for a generic 1/2 10 acme nut is highway robery
[04:44:50] <unter_e> they saw you coming
[04:47:42] <unter_e> sheesh, mcmaster has zinc coated ones for $7
[04:48:16] <unter_e> $2 is for plain
[04:51:15] <ejholmgren> enco has them for $1.19
[04:51:18] <ejholmgren> woot
[04:51:39] <unter_e> that's more like it
[04:51:48] <toastydeath> wooooo
[04:51:49] <toastydeath> disconnected with the best of em
[04:52:15] <ejholmgren> mcmaster is like a high class hooker
[04:52:42] <ejholmgren> has _everything_, but you definitely pay
[04:52:43] <unter_e> mcmaster is really wonderful, don't know about high class hookers
[04:53:17] <unter_e> in most places in the U.S., you order from McMaster today and get it tomorrow
[04:53:36] <unter_e> no need to go out to the worthless hardware store that doesn't want your business anyway
[04:54:12] <unter_e> of course, mcmaster will not give you a catalog, but they will take your order
[04:54:13] <ejholmgren> true
[04:54:28] <tomp> hard to getthe cats anymore
[04:54:31] <ejholmgren> their return policy is first class as well
[04:54:47] <ejholmgren> "just mail it back to us"
[04:55:05] <unter_e> they have to know that you need the catalog, then they will give you one
[04:55:20] <unter_e> asking is an indicator that you are not worthy
[04:55:52] <unter_e> I'm sure that policy has cost them millions over the years
[05:06:15] <unter_e> did y'all get kicked off, or did I?
[05:08:07] <toastydeath> i certainly got booted
[05:08:56] <unter_e> more than once
[05:09:42] <unter_e> I decided to try the proximity switches for homing
[05:10:24] <unter_e> I tested them, and if nothing else, they have pretty lights that light up when they are close to a piece of metal
[05:10:28] <toastydeath> hahahah
[05:10:48] <unter_e> blinky lights, gotta have them
[05:11:41] <toastydeath> i know
[05:11:45] <toastydeath> at work, we're going to install disco balls
[05:11:52] <toastydeath> because out controllers are just not flashy enough
[05:12:01] <toastydeath> boom tsh boom tsh boom tsh
[05:12:03] <unter_e> Haas has the right idea
[05:12:11] <toastydeath> hahaha with the little blinky led post?
[05:12:14] <unter_e> yeah
[05:12:42] <unter_e> If I ever see one of those on Ebay, I'll have to put it on the mill
[05:13:22] <unter_e> then have it flash to the beat of whatever music I'm listening to
[05:13:22] <toastydeath> hahah.
[05:15:28] <toastydeath> have the spindle start and stop, too
[05:15:38] <toastydeath> table move
[05:15:45] <toastydeath> dancing mill!
[05:15:50] <toastydeath> assign it an M code
[05:16:15] <unter_e> have you seen the brushless controllers they have on model airplanes?
[05:16:24] <unter_e> they play music on startup
[05:16:34] <unter_e> mine are currently set to jingle bells
[05:17:05] <unter_e> AB is missing out, gotta tell JMK
[05:17:33] <toastydeath> lol
[05:20:21] <unter_e> apparently this is well known for a long time, and some company that sold stepper controls had a demo mode that would play a song
[05:21:09] <unter_e> the model airplane music is quite striking, most people are very surprised that a motor works so well as a speaker
[05:25:39] <tomp> a renault v10 tuned so well it plays 'we are the champions' http://www.renaultf1.com/en/binaries/RS25_WeAreTheChampion_tcm3-41644.mp3
[05:27:19] <unter_e> I'm listening to country music, how will I tell when the mp3 starts playing
[05:28:30] <tomp> if your system will play both at same time, you'll know when a motor starts screaming like freddy mercury ;)
[05:29:59] <unter_e> your link just redirects me back to the home page
[05:30:35] <tomp> try from here and look for the link http://www.autoblog.com/2005/10/23/from-the-renault-v10-a-real-swan-song/
[05:31:36] <tomp> tomp humms (i aint as good as i once was, but i'm as good once as i ever was)
[05:31:54] <tomp> i listen to cw sometimes too
[05:32:23] <unter_e> pandora lets you set up stations based on an artist, this one is based on Neko Case
[05:33:25] <unter_e> I believe that technically makes it alternative country
[05:34:41] <tomp> make that alternating country ( AC haha )
[06:12:50] <ds3> has anyone asked for a danger zone avoidance feature in EMC?
[06:13:00] <toastydeath> that sounds awesome whatever it is
[06:13:07] <toastydeath> DANGER ZONE
[06:13:10] <tomp> fences
[06:13:27] <tomp> stay outta here, keep off the grass
[06:14:30] <ds3> just defineable zones that any G0/G01/G03/G02 moves into will fault
[06:14:37] <ds3> so you can't crash into a clamp, vise, etc
[06:15:16] <ds3> can't easily crash, that is
[06:15:55] <toastydeath> oh, trust me
[06:15:56] <toastydeath> i can
[06:16:22] <toastydeath> i will crash it like a geriatric into the front of a Rite-Aid
[06:17:47] <ds3> it would have been less nerve wrecking then tonight when I ran a CAM post for the first time with a part clamped in with bolts; wasn't sure if it would cut into the bolts or not
[06:18:30] <tomp> theres some way to ask for a feature, and this is a good one
[06:19:00] <toastydeath> please and thank you?
[06:19:12] <ds3> haas has a variant of it on the lathe where you can't go too close to the tail stock
[06:19:56] <toastydeath> crashing into the tailstock is for REAL MEN
[06:20:04] <ds3> =)
[06:20:26] <ds3> it will happily send a boring bar straight into chuck jaws!
[06:20:33] <toastydeath> i totally toolchanged while still in a part the other day
[06:20:40] <toastydeath> whap
[06:20:57] <ds3> on the lathe?
[06:21:00] <toastydeath> yep
[06:21:01] <toastydeath> haas
[06:21:54] <ds3> you might be able to turn polygons if you time it right ;)
[06:22:09] <toastydeath> or i might be able to cause a turret fault
[06:22:23] <toastydeath> gg toasty
[06:22:36] <ds3> ignore the fault and use the turret as "live" tooling!
[06:22:50] <toastydeath> do you know they actually make lathes that do that?
[06:22:55] <toastydeath> 80 toolholders, two turrets
[06:22:57] <toastydeath> use them like a saw.
[06:23:07] <toastydeath> that's how crankshafts are made en masse
[06:23:12] <ds3> the big ones
[06:23:13] <toastydeath> nah
[06:23:16] <toastydeath> car sized ones
[06:23:24] <ds3> like the size of an SL20?
[06:23:35] <toastydeath> oh, you're talking the lahte
[06:23:35] <toastydeath> *lathe
[06:23:40] <toastydeath> yeah, bigger than the teeny ones
[06:23:44] <toastydeath> they're much larger
[06:24:21] <ds3> hmmm
[06:25:10] <ds3> even the VF0's use a umbrella changer
[06:25:22] <ds3> and that's about car sized
[06:25:34] <toastydeath> but that's mill
[06:25:37] <toastydeath> lathes
[06:25:48] <toastydeath> also umbrella changers suck
[06:26:03] <toastydeath> * toastydeath distributes unnecessary opinions
[06:26:06] <ds3> never seen anything other then umbrellas in a mill
[06:26:27] <toastydeath> tool libraries
[06:26:40] <toastydeath> like, the step up
[06:26:47] <toastydeath> is a changer than has "random access" to tools
[06:26:55] <toastydeath> you initiate the toolachange way before you need it
[06:26:57] <toastydeath> and it gets it ready
[06:27:06] <toastydeath> *toolchange
[06:27:19] <ds3> so you get look ahead faults like when using tool diameter comp?
[06:27:33] <toastydeath> no, because you haven't actually changed the tool
[06:27:40] <toastydeath> that's why there's T codes and M6
[06:27:45] <ds3> no
[06:27:59] <toastydeath> no what?
[06:28:09] <ds3> let say the tool changer only has 50 positions and I call out T80M06 in block N2000
[06:28:16] <toastydeath> you don't call m06
[06:28:18] <toastydeath> just T80
[06:28:18] <ds3> will I see a fault when it gets to block N1998
[06:28:28] <ds3> Hmmm
[06:28:33] <toastydeath> also, yes, you would
[06:28:38] <toastydeath> since there isn't an 80th tool
[06:28:59] <toastydeath> T-- tells the changer to get ready
[06:29:03] <ds3> that is annoying like in cutter comp when a fault can be a few lines ahead
[06:29:05] <toastydeath> in an umbrella, there's nothign to do
[06:29:13] <ds3> Ohhhhh I see what you mean
[06:29:17] <toastydeath> but T-- will get the changer moving on a bigger machine
[06:29:26] <toastydeath> prep the tool, and make M06 real damn fast
[06:29:57] <ds3> so I can do something like Txx M05; G28 M09; M06 to overlap operations?
[06:30:08] <toastydeath> nah, close but not quite
[06:30:15] <toastydeath> for your very first tool, you do this:
[06:30:18] <toastydeath> T01 M06;
[06:30:20] <toastydeath> T02;
[06:30:27] <toastydeath> then you write your contours or whatever
[06:30:40] <toastydeath> then, when you want the next tool
[06:30:41] <ds3> so you prime it very early
[06:30:42] <toastydeath> you just issue M6;
[06:31:13] <toastydeath> yeah
[06:31:49] <ds3> how big of a machine has this kind of feature?
[06:31:59] <toastydeath> i think you can order a haas vf0 with it
[06:32:05] <toastydeath> i forget what haas calls it
[06:32:39] <ds3> is this then thing that looks like a super large bandilier (the ammo belts on a gun)?
[06:33:11] <ds3> s/then/the/
[06:33:55] <toastydeath> yep
[06:35:05] <toastydeath> the changer is like
[06:35:10] <toastydeath> i mean the thing that actually does the changing
[06:35:14] <toastydeath> is an arm
[06:35:23] <toastydeath> holds the new tool on one side, the old tool on the other, and just spins
[06:35:41] <tomp> heres the change arm on the mazak we retrofitted with emc http://fenn.freeshell.org/retrofest/dcp_0371.jpg
[06:35:53] <toastydeath> yeah. that's it
[06:37:03] <ds3> hmmm
[06:37:46] <tomp> this used a big drum, no belt, i had more pix but... this was 2 years ago...
[06:37:55] <tomp> well, good nite all
[06:51:20] <toastydeath> also
[06:51:22] <toastydeath> there are tool hives
[06:51:28] <toastydeath> seperate toolchangers that store 200+ tools
[06:51:37] <toastydeath> and can serve multiple machines
[07:24:43] <ds3> that's all nice, but at the moment, I will settle for ANY automatic changer on my desktop machine
[08:40:08] <anonimasu> ds3: agreed
[12:17:33] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[12:42:06] <skunkworks> good morning
[12:43:03] <mdynac> good morning, all....
[12:44:54] <mdynac> what RTAI version must i use to build emc2.1.3 on a non ubuntu system?
[12:51:16] <jepler> mdynac: we use rtai 3.3 on ubuntu.
[12:51:45] <mdynac> thanks
[13:01:01] <skunkworks> mdynac: how is the edm working.
[13:03:03] <mdynac> it's pretty much removed off the machine and the old original generator is put back on
[13:04:57] <mdynac> the politics of business has prevailed, and i lost.....
[13:08:40] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/share/axis/images/tool_rotate.gif:
[13:08:41] <CIA-18> add a new "rotate" toolbar toggle button. When the button is pressed in, the
[13:08:41] <CIA-18> unmodified left button rotates instead of translating (panning)
[13:08:43] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl:
[13:08:43] <CIA-18> add a new "rotate" toolbar toggle button. When the button is pressed in, the
[13:08:43] <CIA-18> unmodified left button rotates instead of translating (panning)
[13:08:46] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py:
[13:08:48] <CIA-18> add a new "rotate" toolbar toggle button. When the button is pressed in, the
[13:08:50] <CIA-18> unmodified left button rotates instead of translating (panning)
[13:41:16] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/common/axis.png: update axis screenshot
[13:43:14] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: the new rotate mode button doesn't belong on the lathe toolbar
[13:48:13] <skunkworks> after doing a cvs -z5 update -Pd what needs to be done? can you just do a 'make' or do you need to do the configure first?
[13:48:43] <skunkworks> (doesn't say on the wiki unless I missed it)
[13:49:10] <skunkworks> (from the src directory)
[13:50:52] <jepler> you should always "cvs up" from the top directory
[13:50:52] <rayh> Your old config should persist.
[13:50:57] <jepler> then "make" from src
[13:51:21] <jepler> you should put options you use every time in ~/.cvsrc
[13:52:23] <cradek> % cat .cvsrc
[13:52:22] <cradek> diff -u
[13:52:22] <cradek> cvs -q -z5
[13:52:22] <cradek> update -dP
[13:53:58] <skunkworks> I did the cvs up from the top directory - what I was wonder is what I need to do after that.
[13:54:19] <skunkworks> I will give it a try
[13:55:48] <skunkworks> and what cradek said went over my head ;)
[13:56:03] <CIA-18> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl: remove debug output
[13:56:42] <rayh> here's what I do
[13:57:04] <rayh> go to emc2-head ->cvs up -dP
[13:57:23] <rayh> cd src -> make clean and make
[13:57:40] <rayh> sudo make setuid
[13:57:47] <rayh> cd ..
[13:57:50] <rayh> run
[13:58:01] <jepler> I have striven to make "make clean" necessary as little of the time as possible
[13:58:42] <jepler> if you prefer to always "make clean", then installing the 'ccache' package and setting it up properly will really cut your compile time
[14:00:47] <rayh> I've just been bitten by it several times over the years.
[14:01:42] <skunkwork1> http://pastebin.ca/405048
[14:01:47] <skunkwork1> this is at the end of the make
[14:02:35] <skunkworks> make clean? ;)
[14:04:35] <rayh> make clean clears out the old compiled stuff.
[14:11:13] <alex_joni> skunkworks: did you touch that file? (e.g. change it in any way?)
[14:11:36] <skunkworks> oh - yah. Jepler gave me a patch
[14:11:45] <skunkworks> oops
[14:11:49] <alex_joni> then I guess something is borked in there
[14:11:55] <skunkworks> how do I fix that?
[14:12:04] <skunkworks> for velocity.
[14:12:07] <alex_joni> do you still have the patch?
[14:12:21] <skunkworks> I would think so - have to look
[14:12:31] <skunkworks> just un-patch it?
[14:12:42] <alex_joni> skunkworks: no, move it aside and cvs up again
[14:12:48] <skunkworks> ok
[14:14:18] <alex_joni> then you need to check if it compiles, then apply the patch and compile again
[14:14:42] <skunkworks> oh - the patch should be part of head now. should not be an issue.
[14:15:11] <skunkworks> actually it has been in a few of the releases.
[14:18:41] <alex_joni> skunkworks: then simply remove the file and update
[14:18:54] <alex_joni> you should get a fresh one instead
[14:18:58] <skunkworks> in proccess
[14:19:00] <skunkworks> :)
[14:19:01] <skunkworks> thanks
[14:21:23] <skunkworks> alex_joni: that worked - thanks again.
[14:21:43] <skunkworks> jepler: the button works great :)
[14:25:23] <jepler> skunkworks: you like it?
[14:26:46] <jepler> skunkworks: beware that if you're using the TRUNK development version, I changed the pluto pin names. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UpdatingConfigurationsForDevelopmentVersions
[14:26:54] <skunkworks> Ok - thank
[14:26:55] <jepler> "Most pins and parameters on pluto-servo were changed to use dots instead of dashes, in accordance with the HAL canonical naming conventions. For example, 'pluto-servo.encoder-0-velocity' has been renamed to 'pluto-servo.encoder.0.velocity' and 'pluto-servo.dout-00-invert' has been renamed to 'pluto-servo.dout.00-invert'."
[14:27:38] <skunkworks> jepler: it is nice on my portable because It is only 2 buttons and it is a pain trying to click both at once to get it to spin.
[14:27:47] <skunkworks> or shift
[14:29:30] <jepler> now if only there was a good keystroke shortcut left to toggle "rotate mode" on and off
[14:30:06] <skunkworks> ctrl-alt-r-m ? ;)
[14:30:39] <SWPadnos> how about "d" for
[14:30:41] <SWPadnos> "drag mode"
[14:38:55] <xemet> hi
[14:39:51] <xemet> question: the debian package emc2_2.1.3_i386.deb is good only for update ot it will install the complete system (included Real Time)?
[14:40:24] <jepler> xemet: when installing emc2 for the first time on a standard ubuntu system, you need many other .deb files
[14:40:40] <xemet> ah ok
[14:40:52] <jepler> xemet: using emc2-install.sh will get all of them, but that assumes you are connected to a network
[14:41:01] <xemet> so if one doesn't have internet in that PC...
[14:41:17] <alex_joni> xemet: you can probably use the LiveCD to install from that
[14:41:22] <alex_joni> apt-cdrom add
[14:41:26] <alex_joni> sudo apt-get install emc2
[14:41:35] <jepler> I didn't know apt-cdrom add worked
[14:41:37] <jepler> for the livecd
[14:41:41] <alex_joni> jepler: it should
[14:41:47] <xemet> so...
[14:41:49] <alex_joni> I think I read that somewhere
[14:42:24] <cradek> is this a machine that's already installed with something you need to keep? If not, you can just install from the livecd itself
[14:43:00] <xemet> I've a PC with ubuntu 6.06 working, not connected to internet, took the liveCD with EMC2, put in the drive, open a terminal type apt-cdrom add and after sudo apt-get install emc2 ?
[14:43:13] <xemet> is the right procedure?
[14:43:41] <cradek> alex says so - but I don't think he's right
[14:44:00] <jepler> the live CD doesn't have .deb files on it, which is what a CD for use with "apt-cdrom" must have
[14:44:02] <cradek> I think you'd have to install from it
[14:44:10] <cradek> right
[14:44:54] <xemet> ok...really I don't have a
[14:44:57] <xemet> PC like that
[14:45:15] <xemet> I'm writing a guide in italian and was thinking at this case...
[14:45:25] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl:
[14:45:25] <CIA-18> - add a key to toggle the pan/rotate mode
[14:45:25] <CIA-18> - update Quick Reference help
[14:45:25] <CIA-18> - add pop-up help for the new button
[14:45:25] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py:
[14:45:26] <CIA-18> - add a key to toggle the pan/rotate mode
[14:45:28] <CIA-18> - update Quick Reference help
[14:45:30] <CIA-18> - add pop-up help for the new button
[14:45:45] <xemet> So, the best thing is to install it from the Live Cd and make updates using .deb packages
[14:46:03] <jepler> xemet: yes. We will try very hard to make sure that for all 2.1.x versions, the only file you need to update is one .deb
[14:46:49] <jepler> long ago someone wrote this for the wiki but it is now very out of date: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Installing_and_upgrading_off_line
[14:47:09] <jepler> the general idea is correct, but the package lists are now very out of date
[14:47:15] <xemet> ok
[14:48:07] <jepler> there are various ideas offered for getting updates with apt when there's not a fast internet connection available. these ideas would all apply to emc2 on dapper. e.g., http://jidanni.org/comp/debian/apt-offline/index_en.html
[14:49:46] <xemet> yes...using Ubuntu , sometimes I think it would be impossible to use it without a decent internet connection...or without an internet connection at all...I download updates almost every day...
[14:50:23] <cradek> the updates are usually security fixes that are irrelevant anyway if you're not networked
[14:50:41] <cradek> (the exception lately was the timezone fix)
[14:51:44] <alex_joni> that wasn't a problem here :)
[14:52:07] <xemet> uhm...I get a lot of updates of softwares installed too...
[14:54:41] <skunkworks> alex_joni: no daylight saving time over there?
[14:54:41] <xemet> cradek, alex: any news about the jogwheel problem?
[14:55:42] <cradek> fixed in the next release
[14:55:57] <xemet> cadek: ok, thanks
[14:58:56] <xemet> I'm preparing a website in Italian regarding EMC2, I would like to include guides on how install, how configurate it etc...this beacuse I always get a lot of questions on italian forums from people who don't know english and want help to run EMC2
[14:59:38] <alex_joni> skunkworks: sure, but it hasn't changed in the last 10 or 20 years
[15:00:08] <skunkworks> ah - I see.
[15:02:09] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=266085&postcount=12
[15:02:18] <skunkworks> boy - that seems a bit biased.
[15:02:29] <skunkworks> even though he sells servo drives.
[15:02:56] <skunkworks> I would trust encoders a bit more than a stepper ;)
[15:04:55] <jepler> you can lose position with a traditional stepper for two reasons: insufficient power for the velocity or acceleration requested (stepper stalls), or electrical noise (lost or phantom steps). You can lose position in a servo due to electrical noise (lost or phantom quadrature pulses) but not due to insufficient power
[15:05:39] <xemet> right.
[15:06:19] <alex_joni> jepler: do you have a LiveCD handy?
[15:06:24] <jepler> alex_joni: no
[15:06:27] <alex_joni> on my dapper box the CDROM just died
[15:06:35] <jepler> oh no
[15:06:44] <alex_joni> jepler: not that important
[15:06:50] <alex_joni> I don't really use it nowadays
[15:06:58] <jepler> alex_joni: I probably have an .iso image but not a physical CD
[15:07:15] <alex_joni> hmm.. I can get that too
[15:07:23] <jepler> do you want me to look inside it for something?
[15:07:36] <alex_joni> I was looking at the livecd (I have a 6.06.1 here, no emc2 on it), and there are debs on it
[15:07:53] <alex_joni> pool/main/...
[15:07:52] <cradek> just a few
[15:08:08] <cradek> and I may have removed them all on the emc cd
[15:08:13] <alex_joni> heh :)
[15:08:25] <cradek> they weren't particularly useful
[15:09:00] <jepler> I have a CD called emc2-ubuntu6.06-desktop-i386.iso .. it has 35 .deb files on them, none are emc related
[15:09:23] <jepler> looks like there's enough stuff there to compile kernel modules, maybe
[15:09:38] <jepler> maybe everything in build-essential
[15:09:47] <jepler> ./pool/main/b/build-essential/build-essential_11.1_i386.deb
[15:10:01] <jepler> ./pool/main/l/linux-source-2.6.15/linux-headers-2.6.15-23_2.6.15-23.39_i386.deb
[15:12:04] <jepler> I'm not sure whether this is an emc 2.0 or 2.1 disc
[15:13:44] <alex_joni> jepler: that's the stock ubuntu kernel package
[15:14:22] <jepler> er yes I guess it is
[15:14:32] <skunkworks> I have a pretty recent copy on my keychain drive.
[15:14:36] <alex_joni> so it's not really usefull in this case
[15:15:10] <skunkworks> installed on the keychain drive (live cd bootable)
[15:15:22] <alex_joni> nice
[15:15:39] <skunkworks> meaning I could look for something if you wanted :)
[15:22:55] <jepler> it would be interesting to have emc notice when the index pulse occurs "in the wrong place", which would allow it to notice when encoder counts were lost and signal a following error
[15:24:21] <jepler> e.g., you have a 1000-line encoder and the first index pulse is seen at count 300. If an index pulses is seen somewhere other than 300 + 4000*k +- 10, you lost encoder counts
[15:24:32] <jepler> s/pulses is/pulse is/
[15:25:06] <cradek> that would be neat
[15:25:12] <skunkworks> neat.
[15:26:03] <alex_joni> jepler: people who have index pulses usually home using that
[15:26:18] <alex_joni> so you can assume the output of the driver beeing 0 in the zero position
[15:26:50] <alex_joni> I think it can be written in HAL what you said above (although the 4000*k) is a bit hard to do
[15:33:32] <CIA-18> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_stg.c: bugfix for ADC (wasn't tested before) provided by Xuecheng Xi
[15:36:32] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (breezy) realtime (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot2_log.txt
[15:37:07] <alex_joni> wtf?
[15:38:14] <SWPadnos> bork bork bork
[15:38:46] <CIA-18> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_stg.c: argh .. where did that ')' come from
[15:38:58] <alex_joni> I even compiled it here :(
[15:39:03] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 ( * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot6_log.txt
[15:39:12] <SWPadnos> weird
[15:39:21] <alex_joni> must have tyoped it afterwards
[15:39:26] <SWPadnos> cuold be
[15:39:28] <alex_joni> can't even spell typo
[15:39:38] <SWPadnos> oh - I thought that was on purpose :)
[15:40:09] <alex_joni> :/
[15:40:20] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (dapper) realtime (2.6.15-magma) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot7_log.txt
[15:42:44] <alex_joni> "Mode went way wrong." <- anyone knows what that referrs to?
[15:43:18] <SWPadnos> not out of context like that
[15:43:28] <SWPadnos> (and probably not in context either)
[15:43:33] <alex_joni> halconfig.tcl:927
[15:43:44] <alex_joni> halshow.tcl:441
[15:43:55] <SWPadnos> hmm - one sec
[15:45:27] <alex_joni> * alex_joni runs home
[15:45:31] <jepler> alex_joni: it means $workmode got set to an impossible value
[15:46:06] <jepler> (program bug)
[15:46:13] <alex_joni> will ponder on the way home how to translate that
[15:46:19] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (dapper) realtime (2.6.15-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[15:46:36] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (breezy) realtime (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[15:46:44] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 ( * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[15:47:06] <CIA-18> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/po/ro.po: some more translations (not fully done yet)
[15:47:36] <jepler> I'd un-mark it for translation and put a note that since it's an impossible message it should not be translated
[15:47:48] <jepler> (it's useful only to a developer, who needs to know that the message was triggered)
[15:48:19] <jepler> even properly translated, I don't believe the translated message would not help a user take corrective action
[16:32:33] <Bo^Dick> are you guys good at programming avr's?
[16:35:29] <SWPadnos> yes
[16:41:05] <jepler> I think that ##microcontrollers is a channel where that kind of discussion is on-topic.
[17:17:01] <lerneaen_hydra> 'lo
[17:21:00] <xemet> could anyone explain me the manual tool change?
[17:21:16] <xemet> when I change a tool, for Example with M6 T2
[17:21:40] <xemet> I select the tool n.2 in my tbl file, this tool has for example a lenght of 10
[17:22:09] <xemet> How I let the software to know that the new tool has a lenght of 10?
[17:23:54] <xemet> If I've zeroed a tool at the beginning and after I change with another tool with different lenght recorded in the tbl file, should the software automatically recognize the new lenght and modify the offset?
[17:24:48] <plattschnauze> normaly yes, with no garanties
[17:26:47] <plattschnauze> if i understud it right, the manuel tool change had to be quit , the new variable will take place, and the programm "restart"
[17:28:14] <xemet> What I have to qui?
[17:28:17] <xemet> quit
[17:28:27] <plattschnauze> i would try it "dry" ( no tool , no part , just look)
[17:28:39] <xemet> If I have a manual tool change in the middle of a g-code program
[17:29:52] <xemet> and I change the tool with a new one with a different lenght, the software should continue the program adjusting the Z in order to use the new tool with a different lenght...
[17:29:55] <xemet> maybe...
[17:32:07] <plattschnauze> i think "he" stops spindle, goes to a define place and wait for the ready signal, idont know if you could quit it on your keyboard, but there is a Pin to use.
[17:32:47] <plattschnauze> the offsets should take place automaticly
[17:33:02] <xemet> He go to a defined place -> ok
[17:33:08] <xemet> stops spindle-> ok
[17:33:27] <xemet> goes in pause and ask me to insert the new tool ->ok
[17:33:51] <xemet> I insert the tool, toggle the pause and it continue the program...
[17:34:34] <xemet> but what about the new tool lenght? If he doesn't recognize them automatically, all the Z in the code will be interpreted wrong...
[17:35:50] <plattschnauze> The "binding" tooloffset should take place automaticly , if its defined right
[17:37:02] <plattschnauze> i have just tryed the pins for toolchange, but never tested with a real machine, because i use emc only on my robot know
[17:37:03] <xemet> what is the "binding" tool offset? I've the tool offset in the tbl file...and it is loaded correctly because Axis shows me "tool 1, offset 10 etc etc...!
[17:37:29] <plattschnauze> then it should work
[17:37:55] <plattschnauze> changes the offset after toolchange ?
[17:38:07] <xemet> I've not tried with a real G-code program...but with manual commands it doesn't seem to work...or I'm doing something wrong...
[17:38:48] <tomp> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ToolTable yes, its important that the 'length' is actually 'difference of length' from some 'master tool'
[17:39:11] <Jymmmm> what SWPadnos said
[17:39:15] <tomp> see EMC2_User_Manual.pdf section 12.4
[17:39:37] <xemet> If I set to zero a tool, then change to another tool and after I type for example G1 Z0, it returns to the previous position but the tool is 20 instead of 10...
[17:40:31] <lerneaen_hydra> is jmk around here now?
[17:40:41] <plattschnauze> does anybody know if EMC recognice that 0° is the same as 360° on a ratation-axis ?
[17:40:53] <xemet> i mean that the tip of the tool is below the previous 0 of 10...
[17:40:54] <tomp> it wont return to the same position. the Z readout will say the same number BUT the end of the tool will be at same level, the tool holder will be higher
[17:41:26] <xemet> no...the tool holder is at the same level...I've it right in front of my eyes...
[17:41:38] <Jymmmm> lerneaen_hydra : Nah, we stuffed him in a crate and shipped him off to madagascar
[17:41:42] <xemet> so I think I'm making something worng...
[17:41:50] <tomp> then (if TLO is significant ) it is not working right
[17:42:02] <tomp> else you would see it
[17:42:07] <xemet> what's TL0
[17:42:14] <xemet> ?
[17:42:22] <tomp> Tool Length Offset ( from the tool table )
[17:42:25] <xemet> ah
[17:42:35] <xemet> yes...it is 10 for the first tool and 20 for the second...
[17:43:00] <xemet> so the tool holder should be higher of 10 after the change...
[17:43:13] <tomp> right
[17:43:23] <xemet> well...it isn't :(
[17:43:41] <tomp> do you use G43 or G49?
[17:43:56] <xemet> I've not used them
[17:44:00] <Jymmmm> BINGO!
[17:44:04] <xemet> G43 requires H
[17:44:18] <Jymmmm> Oh sorry... wrong game
[17:44:20] <tomp> section 14.12 of the same book
[17:44:20] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmmm; hmm, did you give him enough bubble-wrap to tide him over?
[17:45:06] <Jymmmm> lerneaen_hydra: No way, he'll just eat it. But we did toss wrap in R30 fiberglass insulation to keep him warm.
[17:45:08] <tomp> G43 would use the TLO from the table for it's H value. i thought, like xemet, that was automatic when we asked for a tool that was in the table.
[17:45:55] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmmm; oh, I see, so he's taken a likening to bubble-wrap as a food, pity, I've heard it causes a bit of indigestion
[17:46:04] <xemet> ...if I type G43 without H he says need H...
[17:46:12] <lerneaen_hydra> the fiberglass was thoughtfull though
[17:46:31] <Jymmmm> lerneaen_hydra Wait till he starts eating lemers - fatty and tough.
[17:46:35] <lerneaen_hydra> though I'm not sure how needed it is in madascar
[17:46:36] <tomp> xemet: right. I'd like a way for the program to access the tool tbale values if we have to manually insert them into the G43 code
[17:47:43] <tomp> xemet: i think that is NOT the case, tho. i just cant find how we should use it, and what to expect.
[17:48:00] <plattschnauze> does anybody know if EMC recognice that 0° is the same as 360° on a ratation-axis ? also 180 and -180 etc.
[17:48:46] <lerneaen_hydra> plattschnauze; I can't seem to recall, cradek would know, and it should be in the spec
[17:49:21] <xemet> anyway, please tell me: if I use G43 H10 before a G1 movement, return to the previous position, type G43 H20, retype the G1 movement, the tool holder should end 10 higher than the first movement...right?
[17:49:49] <tomp> xemet: yes, i'd expect that to be correct, please try
[17:50:16] <tomp> because the machine always tells us the truth :)
[17:50:27] <Jymmmm> liar
[17:50:39] <Jymmmm> ;)
[17:50:46] <tomp> vas ist ist .
[17:51:36] <xemet> tomp: well...I've tried right now and the tool holder returns exactly to the same position...
[17:51:51] <plattschnauze> will alex be there, or is he traveling again ?
[17:52:02] <Jymmmm> xemet not to be funny, but are you sure the tool table is set correctly?
[17:52:14] <xemet> I can send it
[17:52:51] <Jymmmm> but I couldn't read it =) I just mean can you check the numbers and make sure it says the difference is 10
[17:53:03] <xemet> wait a moment...no, I'm absolutely not sure...it is the first time I'm trying tool changes and this is the reason I'm here to ask...
[17:53:08] <Jymmmm> and not 1.0 or -10 or anything like that
[17:53:09] <tomp> Jymmmm: his last test ignores the table by directly commanding tool offsets ( he doesnt need to change tools, the one in the chuck would shift by the offset )
[17:53:34] <tomp> like he magicly made the same tool grow
[17:54:14] <tomp> the table wont work if the underlyng offset doesnt work ( like automating a mistake :)
[17:54:50] <tomp> maybe i can try in sim axis
[17:54:54] <tomp> mdi
[17:56:33] <xemet_> here my tool table http://www.pastebin.ca/405341, but as tomp said, my last try should ignore the tool table...
[17:57:45] <cradek> G43 does not cause any motion
[17:57:51] <tomp> i got a zombie emc... will take a while to drive a spike into it's brain/vein
[17:57:53] <cradek> it adds compensation for subsequent moves
[17:58:18] <tomp> but if we move 1 mm after, can we see the offset? view machine coordinates?
[17:58:19] <cradek> I can't tell if that's your question or not though
[17:58:20] <xemet_> it should...
[17:58:43] <cradek> tomp: yes, the next move will put the tool tip at the specified spot
[17:59:28] <tomp> cradek: so he should see the tool holder position vary by the tool length offset ( which he is making large for debug purposes )
[17:59:32] <cradek> and I'm ready to argue this is not only the behavior in the spec, but it's also exactly what you want
[18:00:09] <cradek> I don't understand the test
[18:00:17] <cradek> g0 z0; g43 h[...]; g0 z0
[18:00:35] <cradek> this will cause motion if the length of that tool is different than the previous one
[18:00:56] <tomp> cardek: first, xemet had 2 tools in the tool table, and expected the G43 Hxx to be automatic ( H from the table )
[18:00:57] <xemet_> cradek, please tell me if this sequence is right: G1 Z10 ; G43 H10 ; G1 Z0; G1 Z10 ; G43 H20 ; G1 Z0
[18:01:37] <xemet_> The last G1 Z0, should leave the tool holder 10 above the first G1 Z0
[18:01:49] <xemet_> or not?
[18:01:56] <cradek> you realize H is a tool number, not a length, right?
[18:02:07] <xemet_> no ;)
[18:02:06] <tomp> no, thanks
[18:02:07] <cradek> the lengths are in the tool table
[18:02:13] <xemet_> ok
[18:02:19] <tomp> gotcha
[18:02:20] <xemet_> now I try again
[18:02:54] <cradek> try H1 vs H2
[18:03:06] <xemet_> ok
[18:03:09] <xemet_> now it works
[18:03:15] <tomp> cradek: we are used to D & H being offset not index
[18:03:46] <cradek> here's how to find that: pull up applications/cnc/gcode quick reference
[18:03:52] <cradek> in there, click on G43
[18:04:01] <xemet_> ok, now we can think about the manual tool change sequence...
[18:04:01] <cradek> that takes you to the right spot in the ngc gcode spec
[18:04:19] <cradek> the first sentence is "To use a tool length offset, program G43 H-, where the H number is the desired index in the tool table."
[18:04:37] <xemet_> cradek that's ok
[18:05:25] <xemet_> when I use the manual tool change, should the new offset be set in automatic or not?
[18:05:50] <cradek> length offset has to be enabled with G43 H-
[18:06:06] <xemet_> every tool change?
[18:06:26] <cradek> yes because you have to use the new H number
[18:06:51] <xemet_> but if the offset is in the tool table, why if a use the manual tool change program it doesn't recognize (and change) the new offset?
[18:07:26] <cradek> that's a good question and I'm not sure the spec answers it
[18:08:26] <xemet_> Axis shows me the tool offset when I load a tool, so it reads it from tool table...would be useful if it set the new offset in automatic
[18:08:50] <xemet_> So the G-code would be machine independent
[18:09:13] <cradek> I'm afraid that change would break current ngc programs
[18:10:04] <xemet_> why? it should be: if G43 is present, G43 overrides all other automatic changes, if not auotmatic changes take place
[18:10:24] <xemet_> anyway, I was thinking th code is always machine independent...because H is the tool index
[18:10:56] <xemet_> so if you use M6 T2 you have to use G43 H2...and H2 is always corresponding to T2
[18:11:32] <cradek> yes they will usually match
[18:11:32] <tomp> cradek: and D is tool number also for G41 G42, ok ( sorry about name mangling ) ok, it's uniform
[18:11:57] <cradek> sort of. D is optional and does the sane thing (uses the loaded tool if not specified)
[18:12:07] <cradek> H doesn't act that way, but maybe it should
[18:14:02] <tomp> i couldnt find where the quick ref was ( i could easily click on the menu item, but it showed up under a pile of stuff on another desktop) maybe the name could say 'open in browser...' :)
[18:15:25] <cradek> it does open in the browser
[18:15:30] <tomp> great: another lesson learned :) good one for a little demo program wiki page
[18:15:48] <cradek> yeah I use that quick ref all the time - it's a great summary
[18:17:05] <xemet> ok
[18:17:24] <xemet> I've learned how tool lenght offset work, thank you very much!
[18:17:31] <cradek> welcome
[18:18:02] <tomp> thanks ( i even learned how it didnt work ;)
[18:18:38] <xemet> now I go, see you!
[18:21:47] <lerneaen_hydra> 'lo cradek
[18:22:40] <cradek> hi
[18:22:57] <lerneaen_hydra> how's life?
[18:23:25] <cradek> each day is about the same as the last I guess
[18:23:36] <lerneaen_hydra> haha, I see
[18:23:51] <cradek> if I decide whether that's good or bad, I'll let you know
[18:23:52] <lerneaen_hydra> let's just hope emc isn't :p
[18:24:11] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, that would be wonderous
[18:26:18] <lerneaen_hydra> some person a while back was wondering if rotary axes wrap around after 359 degrees, how's the current behaviour?
[18:26:54] <cradek> current behavior is that 0 and 360 are separated by one turn
[18:27:43] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, what happens if you have a spiral with a very, very large number of turns?
[18:27:58] <cradek> that lets you (for instance) cut a 1mm pitch thread with g1x-10a-3600
[18:28:01] <lerneaen_hydra> would the number of turns have to be nearly insane before you get an overflow
[18:28:15] <tomp> he asked plattschnauze: does anybody know if EMC recognice that 0° is the same as 360° on a ratation-axis ? also 180 and -180 etc.
[18:28:28] <lerneaen_hydra> the answer would be no in his case
[18:28:31] <cradek> overflow wouldn't be any problem
[18:28:52] <cradek> not sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is no
[18:29:07] <cradek> if you program 0 and 360, the axis WILL be in the same location
[18:29:14] <cradek> so it depends what he means by "the same as"
[18:29:20] <lerneaen_hydra> err, huh?
[18:29:32] <cradek> but to go from 0 to 360 it turns one rotation
[18:29:37] <lerneaen_hydra> if you program g1 a0 <lf> g1 a350
[18:29:42] <lerneaen_hydra> err, 360
[18:30:12] <cradek> well after each of those lines the position is the same
[18:30:24] <lerneaen_hydra> first it would rotate to 0 (so an unknown number of turns depending on what position it was at before) and then it turns one turn
[18:30:31] <cradek> right
[18:30:37] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, but it would rotate once first
[18:30:50] <cradek> right, it would turn between your two lines
[18:31:18] <lerneaen_hydra> what type of variables are the values for position stored as? really-large floating-point numbers?
[18:31:33] <cradek> floats I think
[18:31:36] <lerneaen_hydra> 32-bit or so?
[18:31:43] <lerneaen_hydra> ie. insanely big
[18:32:47] <jepler> some parts of emc use 32-bit floats (24-bit mantissa), while others use 64-bit floats (53-bit mantissa)
[18:32:50] <jepler> HAL only has 32-bit floats
[18:33:18] <cradek> a different kind of rotary axis (one that is used just for indexing) would ideally work differently - it would move to the new location % 360 in which direction is fastest
[18:33:19] <lerneaen_hydra> 64bit? how large is the performance penalty when working on numbers larger than the cpu's size?
[18:33:42] <cradek> but that would make it useless for coordinated machining
[18:33:44] <jepler> a 32-bit float has enough precision to store the difference between 16 meters and 16 meters plus 1 micrometer
[18:34:38] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: the reason 32-bit floats are used is not for performance. It is necessary for all values in HAL to be stored atomically, so that another realtime thread can either see the old value, or the new value, but not a partially modified value.
[18:34:49] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, I take it the rotary position is a 64-bit number?
[18:34:56] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[18:35:06] <lerneaen_hydra> that could get very nasty otherwise
[18:35:07] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: because jmk was not 100% confident that in all cases a 64-bit float is stored atomically, he chose to do only 32 bit floats
[18:35:19] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, ok
[18:35:32] <jepler> (you'd have to know a lot about gcc and about the details of all CPU types you wanted to support)
[18:35:59] <lerneaen_hydra> couldn't a 32bit rotation float overflow relatively easily? (ie only slightly insane)
[18:36:42] <cradek> another interesting question is what's the meaning of the soft limits for a rotary axis, and why can't we turn them off
[18:36:57] <lerneaen_hydra> say you have an axis with 1µm accuracy and a 100mm workpeice, rotate it 70-ish times and you'll have an overflow
[18:40:54] <tomp> ? .001 >degree< accuracy ? diameter woulodnt matter, height width wouldnt matter, but total counts of degrees may not fit inside the number format with enough revolutions
[18:43:21] <jepler> tomp: suppose you want to hit within 1 micrometer of the desired spot on a 100mm diameter circle. In angular terms, you have to hit within 20 microradians
[18:43:42] <tomp> on Fanuc & Heidenhain, we had spindles that could also be used as axis ( .001 resultion and 0 to XXXX rpm as spindles ). we'd set the soft limits to +999999.999, -999999.999. this was never a problem when the 'axis' was in 'spindle mode', but could be a gotcha when in 'axis' mode in a looping program
[18:44:53] <jepler> you'll run into two kinds of problems: first, step or encoder counts being stored as 32-bit integers. second, positions being stored as 32-bit floats (24 bit mantissa)
[18:45:32] <jepler> if 1 count is 10 microradians, then you can store about 3400 full revolutions before you overflow a 32-bit signed integer
[18:47:09] <jepler> but when you store 3400 full revolutions in a float (21362.83... radians), the difference between adjancent representable values is about (21362 radians / 2^24) or 1900 microradians
[18:47:27] <jepler> er, 1300 microradians
[18:47:52] <Jymmmm> jepler QUICK what is 2+2
[18:47:57] <jepler> Jymmmm: 3.9998
[18:48:12] <Jymmmm> Don Pardo, Tell him what he's won!!!
[18:48:23] <Jymmmm> A BRAND NEW CAR!!!!!
[18:48:24] <jepler> .98 trips to Hawaii!
[18:49:48] <Jymmmm> jepler: Got Floatation Device?
[18:52:28] <tomp> jepler: i think see the idea, by microradians, you mean .000001's of a radian? a millionth of 360/(2*pi)
[18:52:56] <jepler> tomp: yes, 10^-6 radians
[18:54:18] <Jymmmm> how many snicker doodles is that?
[18:54:28] <jepler> Jymmmm: as many as there are in the vending machine
[18:54:34] <tomp> eleventy-four
[18:54:50] <Jymmmm> heh
[18:58:00] <tomp> 10 uRadians = 0.00057296 degrees, a pretty good encoder and mechanism , not out of realistic tho, i had .001 degree guaranteed by some manufacturers, im sure aerotech could be as fine as 1 uRadian in thier laser adjusters.
[18:58:34] <jepler> tomp: you'll want a few more counts than you want guaranteed resolution
[18:58:43] <tomp> i had to see it in units that i can handle... right
[18:59:47] <jepler> the basic thing to understand about floating-point numbers is the same as decimal numbers with scientific notation
[18:59:59] <tomp> yeh, count unit < measured unit
[19:00:12] <jepler> if you write all numbers as X.XX x 10^Z, the closest representable values are farther apart the bigger the number is
[19:00:39] <jepler> * jepler wanders off
[19:06:38] <tomp> jepler: i know your gone, but yes ( too a while to grok that one) yes there's nothing in between 2 consecutive representations and the distance between them can be very big.
[19:14:50] <ds3> couldn't this be worked around with G91?
[19:38:02] <slundell> image-to-gcode does not seem to work here. It exits with the error: Typerror: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument "spindle_speed"
[19:41:15] <cradek> slundell: thank you - we've got that fixed already - it will be fixed in the upcoming release
[19:41:40] <cradek> if you need to use it right now, you could downgrade to emc 2.1.2
[19:51:07] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/tcl/emc.tcl.in: make pickconfig and most of the python GUI programs obey the gnome DPI setting for font resolution. 96 DPI (the standard gnome setting) gives the same font size as before.
[19:51:07] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/tcl/bin/pickconfig.tcl: make pickconfig and most of the python GUI programs obey the gnome DPI setting for font resolution. 96 DPI (the standard gnome setting) gives the same font size as before.
[19:51:07] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/rs274/options.py: make pickconfig and most of the python GUI programs obey the gnome DPI setting for font resolution. 96 DPI (the standard gnome setting) gives the same font size as before.
[19:53:25] <cradek> does this fix the russian appearance?
[19:54:25] <jepler> no, I don't think so
[19:54:53] <jepler> but it will fix people like SWPadnos with 150DPI or 200DPI monitors
[19:55:19] <jepler> as well as people who choose 75dpi because they have small monitors
[19:55:50] <cradek> neat
[19:56:15] <cradek> does it still use the nice bitmap fonts?
[19:56:49] <jepler> yes, at least at 75dpi and 96dpi
[19:56:56] <jepler> the 150dpi font is a bit ugly and "bold"ish
[19:57:06] <jepler> but maybe it looks OK if the screen is really 150dpi
[19:57:44] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/emctop.py: use gnome-dpi-based fonts
[19:59:37] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/axis-200dpi.png http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/axis-75dpi.png
[20:02:26] <alex_joni> hi guys
[20:02:45] <alex_joni> cradek: the problem plattschnauze is seeing is in the output from the puma kins
[20:03:05] <cradek> jepler: those fonts are a little smaller than what I have in 2.1 but they look great
[20:03:05] <alex_joni> at some point the math decides to quickly move one of the joints from 0 to 360
[20:03:14] <cradek> (the big ones look good to me too)
[20:03:29] <cradek> alex_joni: yuck, that's no good
[20:03:36] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/tcl/emc.tcl.in: {courier} looks better than {courier 10 pitch} at these pixel sizes
[20:03:48] <alex_joni> cradek: yuck indeed
[20:04:10] <cradek> alex_joni: doesn't sound too bad to fix though
[20:04:23] <alex_joni> maybe..
[20:13:24] <alex_joni> yay http://news.com.com/French+parliament+picks+Ubuntu+for+Linux+switch/2100-7344_3-6166347.html
[20:14:18] <slundell> cradek: thanks! will try 2.1.2
[20:14:33] <cradek> slundell: sudo apt-get install emc2=1:2.1.2
[20:14:45] <cradek> I think that's the incantation
[20:15:03] <alex_joni> * alex_joni confirms
[20:16:00] <cradek> slundell: 2.1.4 will be out this weekend at the latest
[20:33:13] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek; what's happened to 2.1.3?
[20:33:30] <lerneaen_hydra> or does emc follow an even/odd numbering for the LSD?
[20:34:01] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: there is 2.1.3 out there
[20:34:05] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[20:34:11] <alex_joni> but slundell needs something that's in 2.1.2 :P
[20:34:23] <lerneaen_hydra> ah
[20:47:05] <slundell> is there any reason why image-to-gcode pops up each time i hit "touch-off"?
[20:48:18] <cradek> hmm, let me try here
[20:48:31] <alex_joni> slundell: with 2.1.2?
[20:48:32] <slundell> on 2.1.2. that is
[20:48:35] <slundell> right
[20:48:57] <alex_joni> slundell: you loaded a bitmap?
[20:49:26] <alex_joni> e.g. had image-to-gcode create the program?
[20:49:42] <slundell> alex_joni: I have loaded a gif, and entered all the parameters and the resulting program is shown in axis
[20:49:47] <alex_joni> it might be that AXIS reloads the program when you touch-off ? in order to redraw it
[20:50:14] <cradek> yeah I get that behavior too - we'll have to do something about it, it sucks
[20:50:13] <alex_joni> reloading a generating program means generating it again (e.g. calling i2g again)
[20:50:19] <anonimasu> http://imagebin.org/7763
[20:50:20] <anonimasu> part of today
[20:51:19] <jepler> argh, I thought that worked right (only reloaded the g-code, didn't re-run the filter)
[20:51:39] <cradek> thanks for finding it before the next release
[20:52:01] <slundell> np :-)
[20:53:56] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night all
[21:02:08] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: touch-off should not call filter program again -- it may be time-consuming or require interaction. reported by slundell
[21:02:22] <jepler> cradek: will you test for me before and after I back-port this change?
[21:02:39] <cradek> yes
[21:02:45] <jepler> thank you
[21:04:14] <cradek> works
[21:04:46] <jepler> Merging differences between 1.62 and 1.63 into axis.py
[21:04:47] <jepler> rcsmerge: warning: conflicts during merge
[21:05:17] <jepler> darn
[21:05:24] <alex_joni> whoa: http://www.isnichwahr.de/redirect23792.html
[21:05:24] <jepler> I like it better when it's automatic
[21:07:27] <anonimasu> nice!
[21:10:57] <jepler> * jepler twiddles his thumbs while emc2.1 builds
[21:12:00] <bytecolor> is the AXIS overlay text (Vel, DTG) generated from system fonts or did you guys create them?
[21:12:13] <cradek> X fonts
[21:12:28] <cradek> the dimensions are generated by us (modeled after the Hershey vector fonts)
[21:13:04] <bytecolor> ah, have to look at your code, I've only used glutBitmapCharacter()
[21:13:22] <jepler> 'glXUseXFont' is useful for using any X bitmap font in an opengl program
[21:13:43] <jepler> but probably not if you're using glut
[21:14:16] <bytecolor> cool, I'll check that out. I'm wanting to get away from glut. my app uses it for windowing functions, but I'm starting to move to Tkinter
[21:15:03] <bytecolor> was going to use wx, but I cant find code that works (sizing problems with repaint)
[21:15:11] <jepler> unfortunately Tkinter doesn't look native anywhere, and I don't think that the widely-available pyopengl package has a working Togl widget
[21:15:15] <twice2> emc won't startup anymore, delay check, here is dmesg http://pastebin.ca/405626
[21:15:36] <jepler> (emc2 has its own copy of the togl widget and its own opengl wrapper subset instead of pyopengl)
[21:15:43] <jepler> twice2: what did you change?
[21:15:56] <bytecolor> hrm, I've subclassed the RawOpengl class for starters
[21:16:24] <bytecolor> makes a nice rendering context without too much builtin stuff to get in the way
[21:17:03] <bytecolor> jepler, I noticed that :)
[21:17:38] <alex_joni> twice2: I bet it starts up.. but it reports the realtime error
[21:17:46] <alex_joni> twice2: did you upgrade the emc2 version?
[21:18:02] <cradek> I see it ran for 20 seconds...?
[21:18:40] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: merge rev 1.63: don't re-run filter when you touch-off
[21:19:03] <twice2> well, i started getting spurious limit switch and following errors, so i put a cap across the brushes and filter on pwr sup
[21:19:12] <bytecolor> jepler, cradek, is that axis tab widget part of Tkinter?
[21:19:12] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[21:19:31] <jepler> bytecolor: no. It's a part of bwidget, which is an add-on to Tk written in pure tcl
[21:19:37] <twice2> but somehow me thinks network is envolve
[21:19:39] <jepler> bytecolor: there's a half-assed wrapper of bwidget for python, also included with emc2
[21:19:40] <bytecolor> ah
[21:20:19] <bytecolor> yeah, I didn't think I'd seen that style of notebook in other Tkinter proggies
[21:22:09] <cradek> twice2: some clues about fixing that error here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
[21:22:52] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[21:22:56] <jepler> we haven't seen a lot of reports that network cards cause realtime overruns, but I wouldn't rule it out. particularly if it's a network card whose driver is not a standard part of linux.
[21:24:10] <jepler> (e.g., if it's "ndiswrapper" or other binary-only driver, then it might contain interrupt-disabling instructions that are not permitted in the linux when you're running a real-time)
[21:24:11] <twice2> jepler: if i unplug the network my steppers know it
[21:24:54] <twice2> tulip driver
[21:25:01] <cradek> you hear them glitch?
[21:25:07] <twice2> yup
[21:25:32] <cradek> make sure all power saving stuff is off in the system bios (wake on lan pops to mind)
[21:25:32] <jepler> how interesting
[21:25:41] <cradek> if that doesn't do it, definitely try a different network card
[21:26:02] <cradek> this is a new one on us :-)
[21:26:05] <jepler> you might add a note to the wiki, nobody's mentioned this as a cause of realtime overruns before now
[21:26:13] <twice2> ok, just started outa the blue
[21:26:14] <cradek> yes please
[21:26:26] <jepler> to modify a page, follow the BasicSteps: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[21:26:50] <jepler> cradek: please test that back-port of reload-filter if you didn't already
[21:28:01] <twice2> me, add to wiki?
[21:35:41] <maur1> hi
[21:35:52] <alex_joni> hi
[21:36:12] <maur1> test gaim :-)
[21:41:44] <maur1> .
[22:10:34] <alex_joni> night all
[22:23:09] <skunkworks> well - internet is hooked up at the new house. wrong speed but hey - it seems to work.
[22:30:57] <skunkworks> I wonder how much more for a static IP.
[22:31:06] <skunkworks> have to ask tomorrow