#emc | Logs for 2007-03-18

[00:00:39] <skullworks-PGAB> had someone offer like $100 for my set of original Bandit lathe and mill programing training manuals
[00:01:11] <skullworks-PGAB> I should just scan them and post the pdf
[00:02:05] <twice2> i've seemed to have forgotten most of the junkie discrete haliburton controls
[00:03:10] <jepler> twice2: in 2.1.2, axis.N.homing is now a pin instead of a parameter. The intent is that you can add other logic in HAL to ensure that a -lim-sw-in for axis 1 doesn't go TRUE while axis 2 is homing, if that is undesirable for your machine
[00:03:41] <jepler> twice2: but you have to add this additional HAL logic yourself, it won't magically start working just because you upgrade
[00:04:21] <twice2> somebody would fire up a big conventional mill and all the nc controls would scrap parts
[00:06:04] <twice2> hey jeff, i know that. that's why i've been waiting for hal to change somehow ;)
[00:08:27] <jepler> twice2: what more do you need? help figuring out the HAL configuration?
[00:11:10] <twice2> jepler: might, not really sure what the change will look like but maybe
[00:12:00] <twice2> jepler: you mean 2.1.2 should do what i need?
[00:13:22] <asdfq-shop> eh-hehehehe [chagrined] Anyone know the default root password for the ubuntu-emc2 harddrive intall? I just messed up sudoers with some bad syntax
[00:13:32] <jepler> asdfq-shop: there's no default root password.
[00:13:39] <asdfq-shop> Ooookay
[00:13:55] <asdfq-shop> LiveCD to recovery rescue
[00:14:03] <jepler> asdfq-shop: you can do it without a livecd, let me find you some instructions
[00:14:21] <jepler> asdfq-shop: it involves choosing a different option, probably "recovery mode", at the boot prompt.
[00:14:29] <jepler> asdfq-shop: hit ESC when it's counting down from 3 seconds, then choose the second option
[00:14:39] <jepler> I think that takes you to a root prompt, where you can edit sudoers or whatever you need to do
[00:14:51] <asdfq-shop> Thanks, I'll try that
[00:15:32] <jepler> twice2: http://pastebin.ca/399432
[00:15:38] <jepler> twice2: I think the HAL configuration would look something like this
[00:16:04] <jepler> twice2: the master switch input is always connected to the axis.N.home-sw-in for all axes
[00:16:42] <jepler> twice2: the axis.N.xxx-lim-sw-in is more complicated: It's only true when master-input-switch is TRUE, and no axis is homing
[00:17:57] <jepler> asdfq-shop: if you can't get it to work, I have a machine I can reboot to walk you through it..
[00:19:17] <asdfq-shop> jepler: already done
[00:19:31] <jepler> asdfq-shop: great
[00:20:53] <asdfq-shop> if only all user-help questions could go that smooth, eh?
[00:20:58] <jepler> indeed
[00:21:18] <twice2> jepler: thanks for that, i think i see it
[00:32:36] <twice2> ok, almost crashed through my switch, i'm going to have to RTFM :)
[00:33:01] <twice2> dinner time, cya
[01:17:21] <CIA-6> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: add stepgen change to log
[01:25:22] <CIA-6> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/hal/components/stepgen.c: fix stupid bug (mine of course)
[01:31:42] <toastydeath> fff
[01:38:47] <CIA-6> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/stepgen.c: fix missing argument
[01:46:47] <CIA-6> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/hal.h: make the compiler warn when _newf is called with the wrong arguments
[01:50:27] <Twingy> http://www.ignorancia.org/uploads/images/gears/gears-4.jpg
[01:50:28] <Twingy> ^-- cool picture
[01:52:50] <jmkasunich> wow, amazing textures
[01:53:17] <jmkasunich> thought it was a photo with a clever background until I saw the povray down in the corner
[01:53:56] <jmkasunich> now that I look closer, I see that the lathe marks on the hub also go onto the bolt heads.....
[01:55:41] <Twingy> http://darkertechnologies.com/projects/darker_biamp/heatsink/biamp_heatsink-12.jpg
[01:55:44] <Twingy> friend of mine made that in gcam
[01:57:04] <cradek> are the fin cuts 1/16?
[01:57:12] <Twingy> I think so
[01:57:42] <cradek> they are deep - looks precarious to machine
[01:57:45] <Twingy> might be 1/10, don't recall
[01:57:56] <Twingy> I made the stock for him
[01:58:09] <Twingy> in my forge in the back
[01:58:15] <toastydeath> i'd do that with a saw
[01:58:20] <toastydeath> and finish it up with a mill
[01:58:36] <toastydeath> gang mill it
[01:58:41] <cradek> looks like a good casting then
[01:58:52] <Twingy> that's about as much as I can cast
[01:59:01] <Twingy> otherwise I need a larger furnace
[01:59:02] <cradek> 2 lb?
[01:59:03] <toastydeath> that might be a wee bit feisty as a casting
[01:59:06] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: that only works if you don't mind the ends of the slots being tapered
[01:59:15] <toastydeath> uh, being tapered?
[01:59:24] <toastydeath> how would that occur?
[01:59:35] <jmkasunich> you know, depth taper because of the saw
[01:59:43] <jmkasunich> duh "and finish it up with a mill"
[01:59:45] <jmkasunich> never mind
[01:59:49] <toastydeath> no horizontal mill saw i've ever used
[01:59:54] <toastydeath> has had a taper
[02:00:02] <toastydeath> but yeah, finishing it up too
[02:00:06] <toastydeath> since you'd have that slope
[02:00:16] <Twingy> I think it took him about 20 hours to machine it
[02:00:20] <jmkasunich> the saw is round, therefore the ends of the slots are not vertical
[02:00:22] <cradek> wow
[02:00:25] <jmkasunich> thats the taper I meant
[02:00:33] <toastydeath> ohhh, yeah, we are talking about the same thing then
[02:01:05] <jmkasunich> Twingy: what is it for?
[02:01:13] <Twingy> he's making biamps for speakers
[02:01:18] <Twingy> so there will be two
[02:01:54] <Twingy> I just finished pattern tool in gcam
[02:02:03] <jmkasunich> seems to me he could design something easier to build
[02:02:05] <Twingy> so you can make gears and sprockets (among other things) now
[02:02:12] <jmkasunich> like a nice length of extrusion
[02:02:18] <toastydeath> also that would be a bitch to cast
[02:02:19] <toastydeath> those fins
[02:02:29] <Twingy> not if you have the right casting powder
[02:02:33] <jmkasunich> how big is that part?
[02:02:40] <Twingy> 7" x 5" x 7/8"
[02:02:52] <Twingy> nice size chunk of aluminum
[02:03:15] <jmkasunich> do you really save much $ by casting it as opposed to just buying a chunk of 1" plate?
[02:03:24] <toastydeath> you save time
[02:03:29] <toastydeath> a lot of time
[02:03:34] <jmkasunich> how?
[02:03:42] <jmkasunich> only the pockets can be (rough) cast
[02:03:44] <toastydeath> milling takes forrreeeveeer
[02:03:54] <toastydeath> if you changed it up so those things had draft angles
[02:03:55] <jmkasunich> the fins need milled regardless
[02:03:59] <toastydeath> do they?
[02:04:01] <Twingy> jmkasunich, gives me something to do with my empty soda cans
[02:04:04] <toastydeath> you could investement cast them
[02:04:06] <jmkasunich> unless you are die-casting
[02:04:17] <toastydeath> lost foam
[02:04:25] <toastydeath> that's probably what i'd do
[02:04:28] <Twingy> I made the stock with lost foam
[02:04:44] <Twingy> I have a video
[02:04:45] <jmkasunich> I'd design the part so I could use a stock extrusion for the fins ;-)
[02:04:48] <Twingy> of the casting
[02:05:21] <jmkasunich> Twingy: were the fins cast at all? or was the stock just a block in that area?
[02:05:29] <Twingy> just a block
[02:05:51] <jmkasunich> so the only time that was saved was in the pocketing
[02:06:32] <Twingy> http://js.cx/~justin/images/alumiforge2/alumiforge2_movie.mov
[02:06:35] <jmkasunich> (which can be done with a decent sized = stiff end mill in not much time (compared to the fins)
[02:06:41] <Twingy> that's the metal casting for that heat sink
[02:07:13] <jmkasunich> where is the heat applied anyway? on the back face?
[02:08:22] <Twingy> hrm?
[02:08:30] <jmkasunich> its a heatsink, right?
[02:08:36] <jmkasunich> where is the hot stuff attached to it?
[02:09:12] <Twingy> have to ask randy, his project
[02:09:22] <jmkasunich> not that important
[02:09:27] <Twingy> I just wrote gcam and made the aluminum
[02:21:27] <jmkasunich> rebooting, bbs
[02:25:11] <Jymmm> * Jymmm says hi to Jymmm
[02:36:13] <asdfq-shop> * asdfq-shop is watching the channel for the first time in a long time...
[02:36:27] <asdfq-shop> ...and my eye is caught by 'gcam'
[02:36:52] <asdfq-shop> I'm going to check that out *immediately*
[02:53:37] <ds3> can anyone confirm that a wire EDM is a lot like a non-contact scrollsaw/band saw?
[02:56:33] <toastydeath> uh, i guess an analogy could be made
[02:56:42] <toastydeath> depending on how you wanted to look at it
[02:56:51] <toastydeath> it has a lot more maneuverability
[02:56:52] <toastydeath> and is far, far slower
[02:57:01] <toastydeath> it also cuts tremendously hard materials
[02:57:03] <CIA-6> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/index.tmpl: right text for image-to-gcode link
[02:57:18] <CIA-6> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/index.tmpl: merge rev 1.12: link text for image-to-gcode
[02:57:34] <ds3> the sparks are sent out perpendicular to the wire?
[02:57:47] <toastydeath> no, they are sent out wherever the spark gap closes
[02:58:02] <toastydeath> anywhere along the wire, in any angle
[02:58:15] <ds3> I am trying to differentiate between sinker and wire EDM
[02:58:34] <toastydeath> erm.
[02:58:45] <toastydeath> i'm going to venture a guess and say you've got the obvious part figured out
[02:58:51] <toastydeath> and have specific questions?
[02:58:57] <ds3> oh so I am correct?
[02:59:10] <toastydeath> uh, i'm not sure?
[02:59:19] <toastydeath> wire edm uses a wire
[02:59:22] <ds3> okay, then... let me ask this -
[02:59:28] <toastydeath> and sinker users a machined die
[02:59:35] <ds3> can I make a cavity with wire edm?
[02:59:42] <ds3> i.e. a big bowl in a block of hardened steel
[02:59:43] <toastydeath> if the cavity goes all the way through the part
[02:59:46] <toastydeath> no, you cannot
[02:59:55] <ds3> ah okay!
[02:59:56] <toastydeath> wire EDM must pass entirely through the part
[03:00:10] <ds3> that's what I was trying to imply with the bandsaw/scroll saw analogy
[03:00:22] <toastydeath> ah
[03:01:14] <ds3> but I can make the cavity/bowl with a CNC controlled sinker EDM, right? (i.e. if I do not want to machine a negative of the bowl for the electrode)
[03:01:27] <toastydeath> you wouldn't want to
[03:01:31] <toastydeath> but you could.
[03:01:36] <ds3> why would I not want to?
[03:01:40] <toastydeath> because EDM takes hours.
[03:01:58] <toastydeath> it is a very, very long process
[03:02:03] <ds3> but do I have a choice if I started with a block of hardened steel?
[03:02:09] <toastydeath> sure
[03:02:14] <toastydeath> hard machining, or grinding
[03:02:39] <toastydeath> nowdays EDM, both sinker and wire, are being used only in areas where super intricate shapes are necessary
[03:02:45] <toastydeath> hardness isn't a barrier to machining
[03:02:49] <toastydeath> not anymore
[03:02:56] <toastydeath> you can use ceramic inserts, or cBN inserts
[03:03:00] <toastydeath> on an endmill
[03:03:09] <toastydeath> or a cBN grinding wheel
[03:03:20] <ds3> I see
[03:03:26] <toastydeath> do not use diamond.
[03:03:51] <ds3> grinding seems to be just as slow (based on what I read about EDM)... the grinding i have done takes off 0.001 per pass
[03:04:19] <toastydeath> they have grinding processes that are just as fast as traditional machining now
[03:04:25] <toastydeath> same metal removal rates
[03:04:27] <ds3> oh I see
[03:04:28] <toastydeath> same depth of cut
[03:04:50] <toastydeath> but hard grinding, as it were, is pretty much used only as a replacement for grinding
[03:05:04] <toastydeath> if you want to machine a shape, hard milling with carbide or cBN is the way to go
[03:05:14] <toastydeath> the inserts are very expensive, though
[03:05:32] <ds3> will cBN work on carbide?
[03:05:42] <toastydeath> it should
[03:05:48] <ds3> wow
[03:05:53] <toastydeath> i'd try a ceramic insert on carbide first
[03:06:05] <toastydeath> because cBN is really expensive, and weird.
[03:06:16] <toastydeath> ceramic should do it
[03:06:31] <toastydeath> the only place you really see cbn used is tool steels
[03:06:40] <toastydeath> that have been hardened above rockwell 60
[03:06:55] <toastydeath> with carbide, you might be able to just use diamond
[03:06:59] <toastydeath> muuuch less expensive
[03:07:09] <ds3> hmm
[03:07:22] <toastydeath> well, maybe not
[03:07:36] <toastydeath> the question is, do you have a mill that will run a ceramic insert?
[03:07:47] <toastydeath> what's your fastest spindle speed, and what's your maximum IPM
[03:07:59] <CIA-6> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/rtapi/rtai_rtapi.c: merge rev 1.33: enlarge message buffers so that the 'unobtainable step rate' message and 'unexpected realtime delay' messages fit
[03:08:10] <ds3> heh... no equipment to do it; more of trying to figure out yet another machine
[03:08:29] <ds3> my equipment barely keeps up on 1020 steel ;)
[03:08:50] <toastydeath> horsepower is not so much of a requirement on ceramic/cbn/diamond
[03:08:55] <toastydeath> as is speeds
[03:09:03] <jmkasunich> and rigidity
[03:09:17] <ds3> ah rigidity is what I lack most
[03:09:17] <jmkasunich> harbor frieght mini-mills need not apply
[03:09:27] <toastydeath> you're not going to use ceramic on any manual machine
[03:09:31] <ds3> I can do 10K RPM
[03:09:33] <toastydeath> or any small cnc mill
[03:09:38] <toastydeath> good, 10k is good
[03:09:51] <ds3> but this is a desktop
[03:09:55] <toastydeath> not going to happen
[03:09:58] <toastydeath> plus, fire hazard
[03:10:08] <toastydeath> you need to have an enclosed, production sized CNC
[03:10:09] <ds3> *nod*
[03:10:31] <ds3> EDM just seemed like an interesting thing but it isn't well described
[03:10:35] <toastydeath> for hard milling most people crank a 1" to 1 1/2" endmill up to 10k rpm
[03:10:42] <toastydeath> or whatever the machine max is
[03:10:43] <toastydeath> and go for it
[03:10:53] <toastydeath> if molten metal comes off, you're set
[03:11:08] <jmkasunich> ~4000 SFPM
[03:11:12] <toastydeath> yep
[03:11:21] <ds3> this sounds a lot like friction cutting on a band saw
[03:11:27] <toastydeath> it kind of is
[03:11:32] <toastydeath> the insert is not good at taking impact at all
[03:11:44] <toastydeath> so it heats and plasticizes the metal
[03:11:50] <toastydeath> and just squeegees it off
[03:12:06] <toastydeath> the horsepower requirement actually drops
[03:12:31] <ds3> one cool thing to try to do is to make a threaded hole on the shank of a carbide endmill
[03:12:43] <toastydeath> lol
[03:12:56] <ds3> I think that is doable with EDM
[03:13:16] <ds3> use a sinker to drill a hole then stick a way way undersized tap into the hole and let the edm finish
[03:13:37] <toastydeath> lol
[03:13:37] <ds3> either that or ''threadmill'' with the EDM
[03:13:47] <toastydeath> i'm not sure you can threadmill with an edm
[03:13:50] <toastydeath> I could be wrong.
[03:14:09] <ds3> why can't I slowly circular interpolate with a tap as the electrode?
[03:14:23] <ds3> pretty much move; wait til it stops sparking, move again, and repeat
[03:14:24] <jmkasunich> need to use a fluteless tap ;-)
[03:14:30] <toastydeath> you'll need to use a rotary table
[03:14:45] <toastydeath> as I'm not sure there are sinker edm's with a spindle
[03:15:04] <ds3> it doesn't need to spin
[03:15:25] <toastydeath> erm?
[03:15:28] <ds3> the spark, AFAIK, will form where it is closest to the metal
[03:15:46] <jmkasunich> use a 1/4-20 tap to "thread" a 1/2-20 hole
[03:15:47] <ds3> so I just stick the tap inside the hole and let the tops of the thread on the tap spark
[03:15:56] <ds3> yep
[03:15:58] <jmkasunich> by orbiting the tap in a 1/4" dia circle
[03:16:11] <toastydeath> could work
[03:16:14] <toastydeath> you'd need to have the tap made
[03:16:21] <toastydeath> out of the crap they make the electrodes from.
[03:16:45] <jmkasunich> or get a dozen steel ones
[03:17:02] <ds3> it would be a nice April first item for the shop ;)
[03:17:28] <jmkasunich> need a big carbide endmill if you're gonna put a 1/2-20 hole in it
[03:17:41] <jmkasunich> wonder if a 6-32 tap could be used to make a 10-32 hole?
[03:17:59] <jmkasunich> major dia of tap needs to be bigger than minor dia of hole
[03:18:02] <jmkasunich> smaller
[03:18:25] <jmkasunich> lots less metal to remove that way
[03:18:36] <jmkasunich> (10-32 instead of 1/2-20)
[03:18:58] <ds3> .1590 is the drill size for taping 10-32
[03:19:08] <ds3> 6-32 is .1380
[03:19:10] <jmkasunich> .138 is the od of a #6
[03:19:12] <ds3> so, yes
[03:19:41] <jmkasunich> get a dozen 6-32 threadforming taps and have fun
[03:19:49] <jmkasunich> (assuming you own an EDM ;-)
[03:19:50] <ds3> take a 0.1380 brass rode and sink it through
[03:20:03] <Jymmm> yo
[03:20:17] <jmkasunich> heck, don't need taps
[03:20:21] <Jymmm> yo
[03:20:23] <jmkasunich> use 6-32 threaded brass ros
[03:20:25] <jmkasunich> rod
[03:20:31] <ds3> yeah, a 6-32 screw would do also
[03:20:32] <Jymmm> oh there you are
[03:21:47] <ds3> this should be doable with an adaptation of the tap burner from one of the older MEW issues
[03:22:40] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: They didn't have the "mini dust collector" in stock, but got this one for $89 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=31810
[03:23:17] <Jymmm> jmkasunich instead of this one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94029
[03:24:05] <jmkasunich> does it have a universal (brush) motor?
[03:24:12] <jmkasunich> (so you can use the speed control)
[03:24:17] <Jymmm> it has a capacitor
[03:24:25] <jmkasunich> hmm, probably fixed speed then
[03:24:54] <ds3> does EMC have a working probe G-code yet?
[03:25:08] <jmkasunich> that makes it better quality than the other one, but maybe less suitable for what you want
[03:25:43] <Jymmm> sorry, I'm confusing this motor with the one on the sander I bought. I'm not sure, it's iin the car, I'm at work.
[03:27:25] <tom1> here's a free book on motion planning http://planning.cs.uiuc.edu/
[03:28:09] <jmkasunich> tom1: bookmarked - thanks
[03:28:21] <tom1> k
[03:28:43] <Jymmm> jmkasunich Ok, a capacitor on a motor means what now?
[03:28:59] <jmkasunich> means its an induction motor
[03:29:13] <Jymmm> and induction motors can be speed controlled?
[03:29:22] <jmkasunich> pros: efficient, reliable, quiet, no brushes to wear out
[03:29:29] <jmkasunich> cons: not easily speed controlled
[03:29:37] <Jymmm> oh, brushes == speed control
[03:29:40] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:29:47] <ds3> induction cannot be speed controlled for all practical purposes unless it is 3PH
[03:30:05] <Jymmm> damn it's busy tonuight here
[03:30:23] <jmkasunich> right - and even with a 3phase one, you need a VFD, which is a lot more expensive than a simple speed controller that works with a brush motor
[03:30:30] <Jymmm> ok, and whats the purpose of the cap?
[03:30:39] <jmkasunich> to get it started
[03:30:40] <ds3> to generate an unbalanced torque
[03:30:48] <ds3> 1Ph has 0 starting torque
[03:31:00] <jmkasunich> three phase motors inherently generate a rotating magentic field, and that makes the rotor turn
[03:31:13] <jmkasunich> single phase generates a field that flops back and forth instead of rotating
[03:31:22] <jmkasunich> so the motor doesn't know which way to start
[03:31:22] <ds3> actually, I was shown otherwise... apparently you can find cheap VFDs (~$100 range) which is about the same for a comparable PWM controller
[03:31:47] <jmkasunich> the cap generates a rotating field until the motor comes up to speed, then a centrifigual switch takes it out of the circuit
[03:31:48] <Jymmm> and the cap puts some lag on the phase?
[03:31:56] <ds3> yep
[03:32:15] <jmkasunich> ds3: you can get a primitive triac based speed controller for routers and other universal motors for <$20
[03:32:18] <Jymmm> what if it was left in the circuit?
[03:32:33] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: depends
[03:32:43] <jmkasunich> some motors do leave it in - then its called a run cap instead of a start cap
[03:32:46] <jmkasunich> some motors have both
[03:33:04] <jmkasunich> start caps are designed for intermittent use though - leave it in too long and the smoke comes out
[03:33:13] <Jymmm> ah, gotcha
[03:33:27] <Jymmm> due to excessive use (duty rating)???
[03:33:41] <ds3> jmkaunich: but those overgrown light dimmers have poor low speed torque
[03:33:42] <jmkasunich> yeah - internal heating boils the cap juice
[03:33:53] <Jymmm> Mmmmm cap juice =)
[03:34:03] <jmkasunich> I didn't say they were GOOD speed controls
[03:34:14] <jmkasunich> but for turning down a blower from full speed to half speed, they'd work fine
[03:34:15] <ds3> you can't compare a light dimmer with a VFD =)
[03:34:19] <Jymmm> Well, I HOPE the $10 I saved and the added 30 lbs weight difference is a good thing.
[03:34:21] <ds3> *nod*
[03:34:26] <jmkasunich> not much low speed torque needed for a fan ;-)
[03:34:47] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: if its 30 lbs heavier, its probably better ;-)
[03:35:03] <jmkasunich> but if its induction, you won't be able to slow it down
[03:35:41] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'll look at lunch or when things slow down here a bit.
[03:35:47] <jmkasunich> looking at the pics - if the inlet pipe is 4".....
[03:36:11] <jmkasunich> the blower on the "mini" one is at most 8" dia
[03:36:19] <jmkasunich> the blower on the other one is much larger
[03:36:25] <jmkasunich> 12-16" maybe?
[03:36:41] <Jymmm> yeah, on the green one
[03:37:04] <jmkasunich> to get the same flow and pressure, the mini one has to spin like a howling banshee - thats why it has a universal motor (basically a router motor) on it
[03:37:16] <jmkasunich> the green one can spin much slower - less noise, longer life
[03:38:23] <Jymmm> i notice the CFM difference too
[03:38:39] <Jymmm> 660 vs 914
[03:38:54] <jmkasunich> I bet harbor frieght CFM are like Sears horsepower....
[03:39:09] <Jymmm> pulled out of theri ass?
[03:39:15] <jmkasunich> but you'll be fine with 100-200, so I wouldn't worry about it
[03:39:33] <jmkasunich> measured under the most optimistic conditions possible
[03:39:48] <jmkasunich> for example, they might measure CFM with the bag removed, to reduce back pressure
[03:39:57] <Jymmm> I'd much rather have the variab;e speed option though, quieter and less reettting of circuit breakers
[03:40:20] <jmkasunich> less resetting maybe
[03:40:21] <Jymmm> the exhaust is plastic where the bag connects
[03:40:24] <jmkasunich> quieter I doubt it
[03:40:43] <jmkasunich> the mini one is probably louder at half speed than the green one is at full speed
[03:41:17] <Jymmm> heh
[03:41:51] <jmkasunich> so you mess around with overclocking and such?
[03:42:16] <tom1> universal motor http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/real_motors/large_images/DSC00082.jpg , mmmmm the smell of ozone in the morning (noisy too)
[03:42:21] <Jymmm> Me? Nope, I like stable systems. Everyone else around here does though.
[03:42:39] <Jymmm> they're all gamers, including th eboss
[03:42:47] <jmkasunich> consider the difference between a 60mm fan going 5000 RPM, and a 120mm fan at 1500 rpm
[03:42:58] <jmkasunich> the 120mm is loads quieter and probably moves more air
[03:43:12] <jmkasunich> that is the difference between the mini dust collector and the green one ;-)
[03:43:50] <Jymmm> That's why I didn't sorta mind buying the heavier one, I figured it was either cheaper fan, or higher rpms meaning less torque
[03:44:33] <jmkasunich> I think you made the right choice
[03:44:35] <Jymmm> I just hope that I can still speed control it.
[03:44:54] <jmkasunich> ?
[03:45:07] <Jymmm> circuit breaker
[03:45:15] <jmkasunich> ds3 and I just spent the last 10 minutes telling you you can't speed control it
[03:45:28] <Jymmm> I don't remember if it has a cap or not.
[03:45:42] <Jymmm> I confused the cap on the sander I bought
[03:45:57] <jmkasunich> understood - but I bet you its an induction motor
[03:46:26] <Jymmm> can an induction motor NOT have an ext cap?
[03:46:26] <jmkasunich> most dust collectors are - that "mini" thing is the only one I've ever seen with a universal motor
[03:46:34] <jmkasunich> three phase ones don't
[03:46:45] <Jymmm> 120VAC
[03:46:58] <jmkasunich> and there are others that don't - split phase I think they call them
[03:47:14] <Jymmm> how do I tell for sure?
[03:47:18] <jmkasunich> the cap is just one way to tell that you have an induction motor
[03:47:34] <jmkasunich> look for 1) brushes - if you got them, its universal
[03:47:45] <jmkasunich> 2) caps - if you got them, its induction
[03:47:56] <Jymmm> do all universal have brushes?
[03:47:58] <jmkasunich> 3) speed - if its over 3600 rpm, its universal
[03:48:00] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:48:23] <jmkasunich> 4) speed - if its between 3400 and 3600, or between 1700 and 1800, its induction
[03:48:33] <Jymmm> why those speeds?
[03:48:44] <jmkasunich> 60Hz = 3600 cycles per minute
[03:49:09] <jmkasunich> the flopping/rotating magentic field is what drags the rotor around in an induction motor
[03:49:22] <jmkasunich> it lags behind a little, so the actual speed is less than 3600
[03:49:43] <jmkasunich> an 1800 rpm motor is half the speed, because it has more electrical poles
[03:49:53] <Jymmm> ah
[03:49:55] <jmkasunich> so one cycle is only half a revolution
[03:50:17] <jmkasunich> you can't change the speed unless you change the frequency of the power
[03:51:02] <Jymmm> ah
[04:00:33] <tom1> info on ac motors... use this free electronics library at ibibliio http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/index.htm goto volume II, goto chapter 13, goto AC commutator motors,, goto universal motor ( wasnt that a Donovan song? )
[04:04:07] <Jymmm> I might have bought the "better one", but like you said, useless for the intended purpose.
[04:04:22] <Jymmm> if not variable
[04:04:40] <ds3> speaking of HP and horse powers... a 1.5HP chain saw has a nameplate draw of 8A, a 3.0HP one has a name plate draw of 12A!
[04:07:49] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: it would be interesting to see that actual load current demanded by the blower, and by the router
[04:07:58] <jmkasunich> both are probably less than the nameplate values
[04:08:11] <jmkasunich> you might still get away with it
[04:08:25] <jmkasunich> you probalby don't have an ammeter suitable for measuring ac line current do you?
[04:08:41] <Jymmm> I have this...
[04:09:05] <Jymmm> http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html
[04:09:09] <ds3> the 3.0HP one apparently generates a full horse power out of the ether ;)
[04:09:28] <ds3> 12A * 125V = 1500; 1HP =~ 750W
[04:09:51] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: that will work fine
[04:10:16] <jmkasunich> measure the current for the blower alone
[04:10:19] <ds3> make you think... is the whole green movement refering to the consumers
[04:10:24] <Jymmm> Heh, and when you draw more than 15A they STIIIIIIIIIIIINK! LOL
[04:11:36] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: how far from the house to the garage?
[04:11:54] <Jymmm> attached
[04:12:23] <jmkasunich> run an extension cord then
[04:13:12] <Jymmm> Can't do that, the garage ciruit is shared with the lifing room. But...
[04:13:59] <ds3> pull a new circuit
[04:14:12] <jmkasunich> ds3: he rents
[04:14:14] <Jymmm> The non existant garbage disposal has a dedicated circuit, and if I get some romex I should be able to run a circuit to the garage that's 20'
[04:14:28] <Jymmm> if I get in the crawl space
[04:14:38] <ds3> oh
[04:15:21] <Jymmm> ds3 If I owned, the garage would have it's own 100A panel =)
[04:15:52] <Jymmm> Not because I'll need it, but becasue I can =)
[04:16:00] <Jymmm> and you never know
[04:16:14] <ds3> heh
[04:18:10] <unter_e> your router looks good Jymmmm
[04:18:31] <Jymmm> unter_e thanks, I bought it from K2
[04:18:48] <unter_e> is it stock?
[04:19:09] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[04:19:19] <Jymmm> Um, no.
[04:19:39] <unter_e> I thought I woulda recognized a k2
[04:19:55] <Jymmm> unter_e I added the energy chain
[04:20:16] <Jymmm> unter_e and the rails it has are not whet they use on the 24" x 24" model.
[04:27:54] <CIA-6> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/hal/components/stepgen.c: fix step type 1
[04:28:04] <Jymmm> bbiab... going for food
[04:46:18] <CIA-6> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/stepgen.c: addition to stepgen - supports the former freqgen functionality without duplicating all that code - just set 'ctrl_type' to 'v' instead of 'p'
[05:13:07] <CIA-6> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/.cvsignore: new manpage
[05:14:59] <toastydeath> just as a general question
[05:15:08] <toastydeath> why does the bot post cvs commit stuff
[05:15:15] <toastydeath> if there is a emc-devel channel
[05:15:50] <cradek> good question - I have mixed feelings about where the messages should go
[05:16:14] <toastydeath> it's uh. kind of aggrivating, but I'm new, so I thought there might be a reason for it.
[05:16:23] <cradek> I think some users like to see what's going on, others don't
[05:16:31] <toastydeath> that is what ignore is for, i guess
[05:16:40] <toastydeath> does cia-6 ever say anything important, or just commits
[05:16:50] <cradek> it's just a commit bot
[05:16:55] <toastydeath> hey a+
[05:17:09] <toastydeath> epic ignored maneuver
[05:17:22] <cradek> a perfect solution
[05:18:53] <jmkasunich> commits ARE important! ;-)
[05:19:10] <toastydeath> yes they are!
[05:19:19] <toastydeath> but since there's a channel just for devel stuff
[05:19:21] <toastydeath> why is it here?
[05:19:32] <toastydeath> isn't a commit devel stuff?
[05:19:35] <jmkasunich> well, it was here before there was a -devel channel
[05:19:39] <toastydeath> aha!
[05:20:08] <jmkasunich> and nobody has been sufficiently motivated to move it
[05:20:20] <jmkasunich> (which involves contacting the folks at CIA I think)
[05:20:45] <toastydeath> lulz
[05:21:02] <jmkasunich> lulz?
[05:21:34] <cradek> 6390 messages since the first one, 2.51 years ago, for an average of 3.44 hours between messages
[05:21:51] <jmkasunich> we're busy little beavers
[05:24:26] <toastydeath> lulz
[05:24:33] <toastydeath> it's like lol, but more "internetized"
[05:25:00] <toastydeath> it means "i acknowledge your statements as humor, but did not, in fact, laugh out loud"
[05:25:10] <toastydeath> it's like a chortle.
[05:27:22] <jmkasunich> ok
[05:27:28] <jmkasunich> whatever you say
[05:28:45] <ds3> hmm did I miss the response regarding EMC and probing?
[05:28:57] <jmkasunich> I think probing works
[05:29:15] <cradek> I should try it sometime
[05:29:17] <ds3> cool.... few more operations and my home made probe is ready for testing
[05:29:19] <jmkasunich> but I've never used it and don't know the g-code format for it, or how you get the data out
[05:29:42] <cradek> that's all in the manual
[05:30:21] <ds3> the way I understand it is, you give it an a coordinate and it will try to move there like a G00 but the difference is it expect to either get there or have the limit switch input triggered; if the input is triggered, the location it is triggered at is written to a file
[05:31:03] <ds3> oops, like G01 I mean
[05:31:10] <cradek> yes that's about right
[05:31:15] <cradek> but not a limit switch input - the probe input
[05:31:25] <ds3> oh
[05:31:42] <ds3> Hmmm maybe I should test with turbocnc then :S
[05:31:55] <cradek> ?
[05:32:27] <ds3> less things to worry about; turbocnc assumes the limit input (so does Mach3 IIRC)
[05:32:43] <ds3> trying to see if my probe works; don't need other complications
[05:33:05] <cradek> how do you know if you hit the probe (successful outcome) or a limit (error outcome)?
[05:33:25] <ds3> you don't
[05:33:52] <cradek> that seems a little nutty
[05:33:59] <ds3> the EMC method is the, IMO, proper way... but the turbocnc method is the more idiot proof way
[05:34:22] <cradek> well, we don't assume our users are idiots :-)
[05:34:46] <ds3> when troubleshooting a new project, first assumption is it was built by an idiot until proven otherwise =)
[05:46:58] <Jymmm> double shit.... induction motor -AND- something is grinding and sparks are coming out of the exhaust port
[05:57:16] <jmkasunich> well, I guess you won't have trouble getting them to take it back
[05:57:26] <jmkasunich> obviously defective
[05:59:33] <jmkasunich> dang - 2am
[05:59:36] <jmkasunich> goodnight everybody
[06:00:39] <Jymmm> night jmkasunich
[06:32:19] <CIA-6> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/html/gcode.html: These optionally take a D word
[06:33:09] <CIA-6> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/html/gcode.html: These optionally take a D word
[06:46:33] <CIA-6> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: some fixes I forgot to document along the way
[06:51:06] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Took apart the blower.... the motor is so heavy (32 lbs - I weight it), that it's bending the thin walled plate that it's attached to.
[07:18:50] <ds3> Hmmm maybe EMC would be a better scan software with its support of the joystick port inputs
[07:34:42] <Jymmm> scan software???
[08:18:56] <ds3> yeah
[08:19:05] <ds3> for a digitizing probe
[09:03:21] <Jymmm> but a probe only really needs is one input
[09:07:52] <ds3> yes and the joystick port is prefect for that as it has +5V for the pull ups
[13:53:27] <jepler> ds3: hal_joystick and hal_input are not realtime
[13:53:55] <jepler> the "probe switch closed" will arrive 5ms after the event actually happens if you're lucky, and 100 or 1000ms if you're unlucky
[14:17:50] <anonimasu> ouch
[14:17:58] <anonimasu> jepler: well, that's a very dangerous thing
[14:18:14] <anonimasu> jepler: do we have a realtime input for probing?
[14:23:40] <jtr> anonimasu: I would think that any of the parport input pins could be used for probing.
[14:25:24] <anonimasu> jtr: yeah, but is that in realtime?
[14:28:33] <jepler> anonimasu: yes, the parallel port is read from a realtime thread
[14:28:40] <jtr> anonimasu: I was assuming that if you are using the parport outputs to drive steppers (realtime), then the inputs would be also.
[14:29:00] <anonimasu> yeah, but is the probe handled in realtime?
[14:29:07] <anonimasu> probing..
[14:29:09] <jepler> but hal_joystick and hal_input (which use regular linux kernel drivers and userspace programs to function) are not suitable for this
[14:29:21] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[14:29:35] <jepler> anonimasu: yes, the code that reacts to the probe input is realtime code
[14:29:44] <anonimasu> I figure breaking a $5k probe isnt nice at all..
[14:29:51] <anonimasu> :)
[14:29:55] <anonimasu> jepler: ok, just wondering
[15:00:02] <Rugludallur> Does anyone know if the "net" syntax is functional in head ?
[15:01:10] <Rugludallur> Can't seem to find much documentation but it could really help reduce the size of my config files
[15:01:27] <jepler> Rugludallur: yes it is, and the syntax is given in 'man halcmd'
[15:01:41] <jepler> net signame pinname ...
[15:01:42] <jepler> Create signname to match the type of pinname if it does not yet
[15:01:42] <jepler> exist. Then, link signame to each pinname in turn. Arrows may
[15:01:42] <jepler> be used as in linkps.
[15:02:39] <Rugludallur> jepler: great, thanks for the info :D
[15:14:53] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[15:29:54] <Rugludallur> jepler: Do you know if the net syntax can handle more than 2 pins ?, for example: net LimitX parport.0.pin-11-in-not => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in axis.0.home-sw-in
[15:36:53] <Rugludallur> jepler: it's not clear from the man page but I don't really see a point to have a net command if it only accepts two pins since linkpp could be used in that case
[15:38:08] <jepler> Rugludallur: more than two pins are supported
[15:38:18] <jepler> I don't know the limit, it's probably more than 10 but less than 100
[15:38:22] <tomp> Rugludallur: i spoke with JMKasunich a few days ago about this in particular: the syntax for many is: net singnal pin pin pin ... pin Dont know how many are allowed
[15:38:55] <tomp> singal is first , the arrow tokes is not needed
[15:39:13] <tomp> signal, token
[15:39:29] <Rugludallur> thanks guys, i have been rewriting my config from scratch with better documentation, trying to make it human readable
[15:40:52] <Rugludallur> net just makes sense, cuts 5 lines down to 1 :D
[15:42:33] <tomp> whats the general name for the type of graphs that Matt Shaver was making? I found some automation tools under the term 'dependancy graphs'. These produce small files that are interpreted, rather than monster bitmaps.
[16:16:17] <tomp> mshaver: maybe this is of interest http://www.graphviz.org/ (the svg/svgz outputs are small and viewable/zoom-able/pan-able in firefox web browser with .xpi extension from http://www.treebuilder.de/zoomAndPan/index.htm) (hi matt!)
[17:07:19] <skullworks-PGAB> time for a crazy wish list entry
[17:09:55] <skullworks-PGAB> I wish there was a way via MDI to tell a specific axis to move +|- 1 rotation (or less) @ F and stop when the index pulse is seen.
[17:10:40] <skullworks-PGAB> Maybe define it as a M code used for tuning limit / home switches.
[17:15:13] <skullworks-PGAB> actually that M code could be even simpler.
[17:16:01] <jepler> except that you want to have the machine stop on various different signals, this sounds like G38.2 straight probe
[17:16:59] <skullworks-PGAB> just a "stop on index" and you use a g1g91x(value of one screw pitch)fm
[17:17:30] <skullworks-PGAB> only issue might be encoders with multible index channles
[17:18:26] <jmkasunich> skullworks-PGAB: what is the reason for this wish?
[17:19:16] <skullworks-PGAB> but then you would know how many degrees apart they were, and could adjust the move amount to go to the next channel
[17:19:41] <skullworks-PGAB> setting up limit switches shared as home
[17:21:12] <CIA-27> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/halui.lyx: make documentation match implementation (problem reported by Artur Kozubski)
[17:21:36] <CIA-27> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/halui.lyx: merge rev 1.5: make documentation match implementation
[17:23:35] <skullworks-PGAB> with power off to servos, crank the axis to the end of travel and pick a mounting setting (for limit) that offeres a safe gap before hitting a hard limit
[17:24:38] <jmkasunich> skullworks-PGAB: so its a one time thing, while setting up the machine?
[17:25:15] <skullworks-PGAB> yeah most likely
[17:25:34] <jmkasunich> granted, I'm abnormal (cause I use HAL for everything), but here's how I'd do that
[17:26:02] <jmkasunich> start HAL (halrun), load the encoder counter, put a halmeter on the encoder position and another one in the index enable pin
[17:26:09] <jmkasunich> setp the index enable pin true
[17:26:19] <skullworks-PGAB> I don't see any use for having a "stop on next index channel seen" command in normal program operation.
[17:26:27] <jmkasunich> turn the screw (by hand) until the halmeter on index-enable goes false - thats where the index is
[17:26:55] <skullworks-PGAB> thats the issue
[17:27:38] <skullworks-PGAB> the index channel is so narrow on high rez encoders by hand always overshoots
[17:28:17] <jmkasunich> the counter will reset when you hit the encoder, so the other halmeter will tell you exactly how far you overshoot
[17:28:23] <skullworks-PGAB> thats why I was hoping there was a seek and stop solution
[17:28:51] <skullworks-PGAB> plus the servo would attemp to hold there
[17:29:23] <skullworks-PGAB> (depending on how far allong you were in the tuning)
[17:31:09] <skullworks-PGAB> could I create a HAL pin linked to a M coe to do this, or am I chasing my tail?
[17:31:23] <anonimasu> hm, cant you re-link the probe input?
[17:32:05] <skullworks-PGAB> Index channel to probe input?
[17:32:21] <cradek> after you do what jmk says, you can watch the count and turn the screw right to 0, since 0 is now the index location
[17:33:20] <skullworks-PGAB> I guess I'm trying to do this backwards
[17:36:04] <anonimasu> skullworks-PGAB: so you are trying to tune your PID loops?
[17:36:19] <skullworks-PGAB> home pos.
[18:24:23] <anonimasu> ok
[18:39:33] <CIA-27> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/VERSION: 2.1.3 release
[18:41:19] <skullworks-PGAB> 2.1.3 allready!
[18:42:11] <CIA-27> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/VERSION: bump after release
[18:42:29] <ds3> that sucks.... hal_joystick being non RT :(
[18:42:50] <cradek> it's usb, there's no choice
[18:43:06] <cradek> besides, anything that a human pokes doesn't have to be realtime :-)
[18:45:20] <twice2> jepler: might be a cleaner way but this works fine http://pastebin.ca/400489
[18:46:01] <jepler> twice2: I'm glad you were able to get it to work
[18:48:09] <ds3> huh?
[18:48:19] <ds3> my joystick port is not on USB
[18:48:40] <ds3> it is just another IO port you can read with an x86 in instruction
[18:48:50] <twice2> jepler: me too, although i'm not sure what had to change in the source to allow it
[18:49:12] <cradek> twice2: axis.N.homing output pins
[18:49:52] <twice2> ah, thanks
[18:50:25] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[18:52:35] <ds3> io port 0x201 reads 8 bits of input
[18:53:14] <ds3> see: http://www.qzx.com/pc-gpe/joystick.txt
[18:58:32] <jepler> ds3: hal_joystick is for "any linux-recognized joystick device". A realtime HAL driver that just reads port 0x201 into 8 bits would be fairly easy to write if that's what you need
[19:05:13] <ds3> Oh I see
[19:05:29] <ds3> so the 0x201 reading driver is not available today?
[19:05:36] <cradek> cradek has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.1.3 | http://www.linuxcnc.org | http://wiki.linuxcnc.org
[19:06:13] <ds3> the joystick port would be perfect for connecting a raw encoder to use as a pendant and other misc. inputs... +5V on the same DB-15 for the pull up
[19:06:16] <ds3> less mess then a parallel port
[19:06:21] <jmkasunich> the -x2-1 joystick port is one of many joystick interfaces that exist and are supported by normal Linux drivers (non-realtime)
[19:06:32] <jmkasunich> the 0x201 port is just the oldest and simplest of those interfaces
[19:06:48] <jmkasunich> most modern joysticks use usb because you can put more features on the stick that way
[19:07:00] <ds3> for a 4axis machine, I think a parallel port is completely used up :(
[19:07:28] <cradek> I have 4 axis with spindle on/off and jogwheel
[19:07:43] <ds3> do you have limit switches on all 4axis?
[19:07:51] <cradek> nope, no switches
[19:08:18] <cradek> is your joystick port on a soundcard?
[19:08:35] <ds3> yeah but I think it responds to 0x201, I can verify that with a simple program
[19:08:40] <skullworks-PGAB> extra PCI LPT ports are a easy and cheap way out.
[19:09:00] <cradek> very true
[19:09:04] <jmkasunich> ds3 likes the +5V pin on the old-school joystick port
[19:09:19] <ds3> but extra LPT ports don't really address the need for +5V for a pull up (yes, I can steal powerfrom the other lines but...)
[19:09:21] <cradek> EMC 2.1.3 is released
[19:09:40] <skullworks-PGAB> steal power from USB
[19:09:40] <twice2> thank you
[19:09:53] <skullworks-PGAB> thanks also
[19:10:02] <ds3> I can steal power from a lot of things but that's another cable stub and connector
[19:10:20] <ds3> Congrats and thanks (re 2.1.3)
[19:10:23] <skullworks-PGAB> USB port allows up to 500ma max
[19:10:31] <skullworks-PGAB> @ 5vdc
[19:10:36] <ds3> 100mA if I don't enumerate
[19:11:35] <ds3> the KB port has more power to steal from
[19:13:07] <Rugludallur> Anyone with gantrykins experience willing to take a quick look at this config and perhaps help me figure out why Y and A don't move in sync? http://pastebin.ca/400523 / http://pastebin.ca/400525
[19:14:02] <Rugludallur> ds3: Many USB implementations aren't that picky, some will let you draw 500 right from the start
[19:14:09] <ds3> hmmm hal_parport looks convinceable
[19:14:26] <ds3> Rugludallur: *nod*
[21:23:59] <Jymmmm> I'm working on the belt/disc sander I got from HF yesterday. when I place a steel rule across the disc, I can see the outside is higher than the inside. I've been trying to sand down the high spots to get it flat, but it seems that nothing is happening at all, but I KNOW it's removing material (60grit, 320grit). Even if the platen is warped, shouldn't I still be able to flaten it?
[21:25:04] <toastydeath> after many hours
[21:26:03] <Jymmmm> I got the "raised circles" down easily (almost fuzzy mirror like now), and even with 60 grit, I'd think it remove a lot.
[21:26:12] <Jymmmm> ^would
[21:27:04] <toastydeath> so this thing is conical?
[21:27:15] <toastydeath> like, the platten for the disc is a cone shape
[21:27:22] <Jymmmm> \______/
[21:27:38] <Jymmmm> the outside is higher than the middle
[21:27:38] <toastydeath> get adhesive backed sandpaper and attach it to a surface plate
[21:27:45] <toastydeath> do not attempt to do it by hand
[21:28:07] <toastydeath> put a dykem line across the diameter
[21:28:17] <toastydeath> when you hit the center, you got it.
[21:28:17] <Jymmmm> I'm letting it spin at 2200 rpm then placing a piece of 60 grit sandpaper againest it
[21:28:39] <toastydeath> what's the difference in height
[21:28:47] <toastydeath> have you measured it
[21:29:16] <Jymmmm> nope, maybe ~.015
[21:29:31] <Jymmmm> "
[21:29:31] <toastydeath> dunno dude.
[21:29:38] <toastydeath> it will take awhile
[21:29:46] <toastydeath> and i'd flatten it my way, personally
[21:29:52] <toastydeath> but then again, it is my way =)
[21:30:04] <toastydeath> or you could take a long bar
[21:30:11] <toastydeath> and attach sandpaper to that.
[21:30:29] <toastydeath> basically you want to make sure you're really flattening and not doing some weird thing
[21:30:56] <xemet> hi
[21:30:56] <toastydeath> power drill and a sandpapered surface plate
[21:31:01] <toastydeath> are a really good way to ensure flatness
[21:31:17] <toastydeath> attach the platten to the drill and go.
[21:31:42] <Jymmmm> why would I want to do that? It is on a spinngin shaft already?
[21:32:16] <toastydeath> because the shaft is rigid
[21:32:31] <toastydeath> you want to spin it and allow it to automatically align itself
[21:32:42] <Jymmmm> Which I am already doing.
[21:32:54] <xemet> downloaded 2.1.3 but problem with joypad remains...
[21:33:01] <toastydeath> well, if you're right, and you only have 15 thou
[21:33:06] <toastydeath> something isn't going the way you think it is
[21:33:26] <toastydeath> but again, this is just how i would do it, knowing what i know about generating flat surfaces
[21:33:43] <toastydeath> not being able to see what you are doing, you might be totally right
[21:33:50] <toastydeath> and something else entirely is going wrong
[21:42:31] <alex_joni> xemet: what problem?
[21:43:43] <xemet> when I updated to 2.1.2
[21:43:54] <xemet> the joypad moves axes very slowly
[21:44:04] <xemet> (max 5 mm/min...)
[21:44:21] <xemet> cradek said it was a bug and he had fixed it in the 2.1.3 version
[21:44:31] <xemet> but seems that the problem remain
[21:44:38] <xemet> at least in my case...
[21:46:10] <dave_1> wow, quiet ... of course the temp 70 or so here and I should be outside. ;-(
[21:46:36] <dave_1> anyone know the code to move to the tool change position?
[21:46:59] <toastydeath> ?
[21:47:51] <alex_joni> dave_1: any issues?
[21:48:06] <alex_joni> dave_1: I know enough to locate it if needed
[21:48:48] <dave_1> I know to set the TOOL_CHANGE_POSITION in emcio section of ini but what activates it?
[21:49:35] <xemet> M6?
[21:49:47] <xemet> select a tool with Txx
[21:50:02] <dave_1> I don't think so ... that initiates the tool change
[21:50:06] <xemet> and after M6 will move to the tool change position
[21:50:20] <dave_1> OK ... I can try it.
[21:50:24] <xemet> at least with manual tool change
[21:50:35] <jmkasunich> dave_1: moving to the tool change pos is the first step of the change - you can't "activated" is separately
[21:50:36] <dave_1> guess I'll find out
[21:50:38] <xemet> you have to include axis_manualtoolchange.hal in your configuration
[21:50:50] <alex_joni> xemet: not necessarely
[21:50:54] <xemet> ok
[21:51:04] <alex_joni> it will still go to the location
[21:51:06] <alex_joni> but not stop there..
[21:51:21] <xemet> understood
[21:51:22] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, you about?
[21:51:27] <robin_sz> alex_joni, dude!
[21:51:33] <dave_1> tnx JMK
[21:51:37] <dave_1> gone
[21:51:42] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: no
[21:52:01] <robin_sz> heh
[21:52:23] <robin_sz> can I tap your high-current brain for a moment ...
[21:52:37] <jmkasunich> you can try
[21:52:44] <robin_sz> I have a spot welder ...
[21:52:49] <jmkasunich> see if anything usefull comes out
[21:52:57] <robin_sz> bit of a beast ... 90KVA rated ...
[21:53:12] <jmkasunich> not a portable ;-)
[21:53:23] <robin_sz> not really, no
[21:53:38] <xemet> alex: what could I try for the joypad problem?
[21:54:04] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, anyway ... the thing draws lots of amps for 20 cycles
[21:54:28] <robin_sz> lights dim .. neighbours complain
[21:54:45] <jmkasunich> heh
[21:55:10] <robin_sz> so .. Iwas thinking of a smallish (say, 5 to 10 KVA motor) and a generator
[21:55:25] <robin_sz> and a big flywheel
[21:55:39] <robin_sz> or is there some simpler plan?
[21:55:50] <jmkasunich> not sure
[21:56:00] <jmkasunich> you'll need a rather large generator
[21:56:11] <robin_sz> average power is low
[21:56:17] <jmkasunich> maybe 50% of the welder kva rating
[21:56:21] <robin_sz> its like one weld every 10 seconds
[21:56:41] <robin_sz> and we dont turn it up high anyway
[21:56:55] <jmkasunich> thermally you could probably get away with a lot less, but if you think the welder makes the line voltage droop, thats nothing compared to what it will do to the generator output
[21:57:08] <robin_sz> true true
[21:57:13] <jmkasunich> generator has a lot higher impedance than the line
[21:57:17] <robin_sz> its single phase to the welder ...
[21:57:26] <robin_sz> as youd expect
[21:57:51] <jmkasunich> yuck - getting a good single phase generator is probably even harder than getting a three phase one
[21:57:58] <robin_sz> well, yeah
[21:58:00] <alex_joni> xemet: remind me.. how do you have it hooked up?
[21:58:22] <alex_joni> is it connected to halui?
[21:58:31] <xemet> I've it in two way
[21:58:38] <robin_sz> it runs strapped across two phases of the three phase ... so its got 415 V on it already
[21:58:40] <xemet> one with sim-encoder and encoder
[21:58:41] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: do you know the power factor of the welder?
[21:58:54] <alex_joni> joypad?
[21:58:53] <robin_sz> nope ...
[21:58:56] <xemet> alex: that one is described in the wiki
[21:59:06] <alex_joni> xemet: hang on, reading
[21:59:14] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, I suspect its crap ... Ihave a 'scope ... i could estimate
[21:59:15] <jmkasunich> (I'm guessing its quite low - 90KVA does not mean 90KW delivered to the metal
[21:59:20] <xemet> alex: joypad output is hooked to the sim-encoder speed
[21:59:33] <xemet> alex: and the sim encoder is hooked to the encoder
[21:59:48] <xemet> alex: encoder conts go to the axis-jog counts
[21:59:51] <jmkasunich> if it turns out to be really low, maybe if you compensated the inductive portion of the current with some caps the line dip would be much less
[22:00:07] <xemet> alex: other way is with a simple component
[22:00:07] <alex_joni> xemet: why do you do that?
[22:00:15] <jmkasunich> you'd need to switch the caps at the same time as the welder, so its not overcompensated the rest of the time
[22:00:17] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, when you say "some" caps?
[22:00:18] <alex_joni> xemet: the joypad has analog pins.. right?
[22:00:24] <xemet> alex: because I was a beginner
[22:00:33] <alex_joni> xemet: simply connect those to halui
[22:00:47] <jmkasunich> measure the phase relationship between the current and voltage at the line terminals during a weld
[22:01:00] <jmkasunich> the current probably lags the voltage, maybe by a lot
[22:01:24] <xemet> alex: (i'm still a beginner)...
[22:01:26] <jmkasunich> decompose that current at some lagging angle less than 90 degrees into two components (trig)
[22:01:40] <jmkasunich> one in phase with voltage (real current, kW) and one 90 degrees lagging (kvar)
[22:01:55] <robin_sz> jmkasunich yeah I can do PF ... I suspect I'll just lissajou it on a scope
[22:01:59] <xemet> alex: where in halui??
[22:02:08] <jmkasunich> the choose caps that would draw the same amount of current as the 90 deg lagging component when connected across the line
[22:02:12] <xemet> alex: ah ok, in jog speed
[22:02:16] <robin_sz> hmmm
[22:02:18] <jmkasunich> but since they're caps, they'll draw leading current
[22:02:28] <alex_joni> xemet: net jogX joypad.axis.0 halui.jog.0.analog
[22:02:31] <jmkasunich> which cancels out the lagging that the welder draws
[22:02:36] <xemet> alex: well I did not know that at the time I wrote that page
[22:02:37] <robin_sz> well, I suspect it draws close to 150A ....
[22:02:52] <jmkasunich> I didn't say it would be cheap
[22:02:54] <alex_joni> xemet: I'm not sure it is in 2.1.x, is that a problem?
[22:02:56] <xemet> alex: the question is: why before the 2.1.2 it worked and after not?
[22:02:59] <robin_sz> :)
[22:03:10] <robin_sz> the expense will be the rent I guess
[22:03:23] <jmkasunich> "power factor correction capacitors" are a commercially available item (but usually 3 phase I think)
[22:03:31] <alex_joni> xemet: maybe some scaling changed?
[22:03:42] <jmkasunich> I think 100KVAR of caps costs a couple thousand US$
[22:03:51] <robin_sz> oh, not too bad
[22:03:51] <xemet> alex: not I tried to change scale
[22:04:07] <alex_joni> xemet: didn't say you tried
[22:04:19] <xemet> alex: nothing happened I used a scale ten times greater
[22:04:31] <xemet> alex: and the speed was unchanged
[22:05:02] <alex_joni> which scale?
[22:05:09] <alex_joni> I see at least 2-3 places for scaling
[22:05:38] <alex_joni> setp encoder.0.position-scale 1
[22:05:44] <alex_joni> setp encoder.0.x4-mode TRUE
[22:05:51] <alex_joni> setp sim-encoder.0.ppr 00000064
[22:05:51] <alex_joni> setp sim-encoder.0.scale 1
[22:05:56] <xemet> alex: jog scale
[22:06:01] <alex_joni> all those can influence scaling
[22:06:10] <alex_joni> and speed
[22:06:28] <xemet> alex: all those can influence, but if I change one and nothing happens, the problem should not be there
[22:06:49] <alex_joni> and there must be an additional parameter for joypad.axis.0
[22:06:59] <SWPadnos> xemet, if you change any of those and nothing happens, there is a problem
[22:07:00] <alex_joni> which isn't in your description
[22:07:09] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees with SWPadnos
[22:07:22] <xemet> alex: hold on a moment
[22:08:12] <alex_joni> * alex_joni tries to hold the moment
[22:09:09] <xemet> http://www.pastebin.ca/400772
[22:09:24] <xemet> that was said friday
[22:09:52] <twice2> my axis display and mouse lag with big file ~180k lines, 750MHz P3. I that to be expected?
[22:10:11] <robin_sz> sigh ... there are some complete idiots in the world!
[22:10:36] <alex_joni> xemet: it's fixed better now.. maybe it was wrong before 2.1.2 :P
[22:10:41] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, you should see this .. on a company site that makes PF correction equipment ::
[22:10:55] <alex_joni> xemet: I suggest you start doing some math
[22:10:58] <robin_sz> Why improve my Power Factor ?
[22:10:58] <robin_sz> Improving a systems power factor will reduce the total power consumed by an electrical installation and will provide the following benefits:
[22:10:58] <robin_sz> Financial saving - By reducing power consumed electricity costs are reduced.
[22:11:05] <jmkasunich> liers
[22:11:10] <alex_joni> tilt the joystick all the way, and check the joystick.axis.0 value
[22:11:11] <robin_sz> idiots ...
[22:11:17] <robin_sz> possibly liars as well
[22:11:24] <robin_sz> amazing huh?
[22:11:29] <xemet> alex: 0 to 1
[22:11:34] <xemet> 0 to -1
[22:11:45] <alex_joni> ok.. so your max jogging speed is 1 rps
[22:11:49] <xemet> yes
[22:12:01] <alex_joni> the sim-encoder has 64 impulses / rotation
[22:12:05] <xemet> yes
[22:12:10] <alex_joni> so you can't go any faster than 64 pulses / second
[22:12:14] <alex_joni> what's your scale?
[22:12:19] <alex_joni> INPUT_SCALE in the ini
[22:12:24] <xemet> 200
[22:12:37] <alex_joni> ok, then you have a max jogging speed of 64/200 mm/sec
[22:12:47] <alex_joni> 0,32 mm/sec
[22:12:55] <alex_joni> which is probably what you are getting ;)
[22:13:02] <xemet> 19 mm/min?
[22:13:03] <xemet> no
[22:13:13] <xemet> I get 4
[22:13:26] <alex_joni> 4 mm/sec?
[22:13:29] <xemet> min
[22:13:33] <xemet> 4 mm/min
[22:13:34] <alex_joni> hmm
[22:13:49] <alex_joni> maybe because of quadrature
[22:14:17] <xemet> alex: what is the axis-jog-scale?
[22:14:33] <alex_joni> xemet: sorry?
[22:14:59] <xemet> I mean, if I change the axis jog scale, what should happen?
[22:15:24] <alex_joni> I'm not sure what axis jog scale is
[22:15:34] <xemet> ah ok
[22:16:15] <xemet> http://www.pastebin.ca/400772
[22:16:18] <xemet> sorry
[22:16:20] <alex_joni> xemet: what's the exact name?
[22:16:36] <xemet> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMCMOT_And_EMCIO_HAL_Interface
[22:17:08] <alex_joni> that's the scaling of the jogging you're using
[22:17:15] <xemet> bit??
[22:17:17] <alex_joni> that should also influence the speed
[22:17:26] <alex_joni> bet it's wrong there
[22:17:38] <xemet> ah
[22:17:43] <alex_joni> rtapi_snprintf(buf, HAL_NAME_LEN, "axis.%d.jog-scale", num);
[22:17:43] <alex_joni> retval = hal_pin_float_new(buf, HAL_IN, &(addr->jog_scale), mot_comp_id);
[22:17:51] <alex_joni> it's float all right
[22:17:54] <xemet> so If I change the jog scale...
[22:18:03] <xemet> the speed should change...
[22:18:04] <xemet> right?
[22:18:04] <alex_joni> yes
[22:18:17] <xemet> that happened beofre the 2.1.2
[22:18:30] <xemet> nof if I change
[22:18:33] <xemet> the scale
[22:18:37] <alex_joni> what did? please try to use complete sentences
[22:18:41] <xemet> the speed remains the same
[22:20:02] <xemet> Example: scale 0.1 -> max speed was 1800 mm/min, scale 0.01 max speed was 180 mm/min
[22:20:38] <alex_joni> xemet: try this
[22:20:54] <alex_joni> set your keyboard jogging speed very high, and jog with the keyboard
[22:21:02] <alex_joni> see if that works at the speed it should
[22:21:15] <xemet> Now: scale 0.1 -> max speed 4 mm/min, scale -> 0.01 max speed is 4 mm/min, scale 11000000 -> max speed is 4 mm/min
[22:21:16] <alex_joni> after that try jogging with the joystick
[22:21:24] <xemet> with keyboard it works...
[22:21:33] <alex_joni> please do as I say
[22:22:38] <xemet> done
[22:22:46] <alex_joni> no change?
[22:22:47] <xemet> with keyboard I go at 1800 mm/min
[22:22:58] <xemet> no, with joypad after I go at 4 mm/min
[22:23:20] <alex_joni> ok.. can you do a halcmd show sig while keeping the joystick tilted to max?
[22:23:32] <alex_joni> and pastebin that?
[22:23:51] <xemet> hold
[22:26:03] <robin_sz> ooh, sneaky .... brilliant idea ...
[22:26:16] <alex_joni> robin_sz: ?
[22:26:22] <robin_sz> now .. thats a simple but effective engineering idea ... for spot welders
[22:26:51] <robin_sz> say you have a welder that draws 100A ... you need a nominal 100A supply right ...??
[22:27:05] <robin_sz> spot welder that is ...
[22:27:05] <alex_joni> unless you use big caps
[22:27:19] <robin_sz> and ... what if you have 10 of em?
[22:27:29] <alex_joni> cascade them :P
[22:27:33] <jmkasunich> make darned sure all 10 don
[22:27:39] <jmkasunich> don't run at once
[22:27:40] <robin_sz> yeah,
[22:27:53] <robin_sz> theres people doing spot welder interlock systems ...
[22:28:00] <robin_sz> clever solution
[22:28:14] <alex_joni> robin_sz: most of the time it's also a process requirement
[22:28:22] <robin_sz> ??
[22:28:40] <alex_joni> secondary currents & all that crap
[22:28:42] <unter_e> anyone using proximity switches for homing?
[22:29:21] <xemet_> alex: http://www.pastebin.ca/400804
[22:29:57] <robin_sz> unter_e, doubtful
[22:30:26] <robin_sz> unter_e, repeatability can be a bit poor
[22:30:29] <alex_joni> xemet: hmm.. seems ok
[22:30:39] <xemet_> alex: anyway this encoder-decoder method is really stupid so I try to hook joypad directly to halui
[22:30:38] <alex_joni> how about countX?
[22:30:50] <unter_e> I was thinking about using them in combination with encoder index
[22:30:58] <alex_joni> xemet: yeah, but those are only in TRUNK, not in 2.1.3
[22:31:12] <alex_joni> the halui.jog.X.analog pins I mean
[22:31:20] <xemet_> alek: ah ok
[22:31:31] <robin_sz> unter_e, they can work if you are using servos with an index pulse, so the proximity switch gets you close, the index pulse is the accurate one
[22:31:37] <xemet_> so countX are the encoder counter
[22:31:42] <alex_joni> right
[22:31:42] <xemet_> for the X axis
[22:31:53] <alex_joni> xemet_: open a HalMeter
[22:31:54] <unter_e> but I guess the repeatability could kill me on that too
[22:31:56] <alex_joni> and watch them while jogging
[22:32:05] <unter_e> guess I'll have to set up a test
[22:32:05] <alex_joni> it should increase by ~60/second
[22:32:07] <xemet_> alex: I've the other way to do it, without encoders
[22:32:16] <xemet_> it is also described in the wiki
[22:33:08] <xemet_> alex: I try, but my computer is slow...
[22:33:07] <unter_e> the "Bob Campbell" breakout board manual talks about proximity switches for some purpose, I'll have to track that one down
[22:33:59] <alex_joni> xemet_: or just increase the sim-encoder resolution
[22:34:07] <alex_joni> from 64 to something else
[22:34:17] <alex_joni> make it 640 and see if it moves 10 times faster
[22:34:38] <xemet_> alex: looked with hal meter
[22:35:02] <xemet_> alex: it increase *at least* 60 times per second
[22:35:02] <alex_joni> xemet_: and?
[22:35:07] <jmkasunich> do I understand this correctly? some control is being used to tell sim-encoder to make pulses that encoder then counts, and the counts are being used to do jogging?
[22:35:14] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: yeah ..
[22:35:19] <jmkasunich> why?
[22:35:22] <alex_joni> hal_joystick actually
[22:35:31] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders why too
[22:35:44] <xemet_> alex: I don't use this anymore...
[22:35:53] <alex_joni> xemet_: it's an itneresting concept though
[22:35:58] <alex_joni> xemet_: one question..
[22:36:09] <alex_joni> after you release the joystick.. does it keep jogging for a while?
[22:36:27] <xemet_> alex: now I use a single component that converts the float to a counts
[22:36:38] <xemet_> alex: nut the problem is exactly the same
[22:36:44] <xemet_> but...
[22:36:52] <alex_joni> after you release the joystick.. does it keep jogging for a while?
[22:37:04] <xemet_> alex: no
[22:37:11] <xemet_> alex: it stops
[22:37:16] <alex_joni> so it stops imediately?
[22:37:24] <alex_joni> then it's going at the requested speed
[22:37:26] <xemet_> alex: imediatly
[22:37:41] <alex_joni> and the problem is before the motion controller
[22:37:57] <alex_joni> the motion controller does jogging by setting a position request
[22:38:14] <alex_joni> if it can't get there fast enough, it would keep moving to there after you release the joystick
[22:38:33] <xemet_> alex:...not the case
[22:38:45] <alex_joni> in that case I think it's before motion
[22:39:01] <xemet_> alex: I've tried that before the 2.1.2
[22:39:01] <alex_joni> so somewhere in the counts generation
[22:39:23] <xemet_> alex: if I set a too high scale it did keep moving
[22:39:33] <xemet_> alex: counts generation is ok
[22:39:51] <xemet_> alex: I've looked at counts with halmeter 1 min ago...
[22:41:22] <alex_joni> xemet_: increase the axis.jog-scale for a bit
[22:41:43] <xemet_> alex: at what value? 10000000000000?
[22:41:50] <alex_joni> no.. 1
[22:41:56] <alex_joni> or a bit above
[22:42:02] <alex_joni> you have 0.1 now.. right?
[22:42:07] <xemet_> yes
[22:42:10] <alex_joni> make it 1
[22:42:15] <xemet_> set it to 1
[22:42:16] <xemet_> ok
[22:43:21] <xemet_> alex: the same.
[22:43:46] <alex_joni> xemet_: increase it until it keeps moving for a bit
[22:43:50] <alex_joni> maybe 2 or so
[22:43:59] <xemet_> alex: it never happens...
[22:44:09] <xemet_> alex: that is the problem...
[22:44:17] <xemet_> alex: speed *doesn't change*
[22:44:29] <alex_joni> xemet_: I understand that
[22:45:48] <xemet_> alex: lucky you :) , I not
[22:46:07] <alex_joni> are you certain you increased the right thing?
[22:46:30] <alex_joni> make it 10
[22:46:59] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I know it's crazy to do jogging like this, but it might prove some problem with the jogwheel jogging
[22:47:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wishes cradek was around
[22:47:49] <xemet_> alex: maybe a new thing...
[22:47:56] <alex_joni> xemet_: ?
[22:47:59] <xemet_> alex: is axis jog scale a parameter?
[22:48:04] <alex_joni> xemet_: yes
[22:48:16] <alex_joni> but I think it's a pin now.. let me check
[22:48:30] <alex_joni> it's a pin
[22:48:32] <xemet_> alex: and why I don't see it with show param
[22:48:34] <xemet_> alex: ah ok
[22:49:37] <xemet_> 05 float IN 2 axis.0.jog-scale <== jogscale
[22:49:44] <xemet_> alex: correctly setted
[22:50:17] <xemet_> jogging like jmkasunich: I know it's crazy to do this, but it might prove some problem with the jogwheel jogging
[22:50:28] <xemet_> yes infact I have to use it with a jogwheel now
[22:50:40] <xemet_> and if the problem is with encoder
[22:50:53] <xemet_> I think it will remain because it has nothing to do with joypad...
[22:51:06] <xemet_> that was only an experiment to learn hal
[22:52:42] <alex_joni> xemet_: jogwheel jogging is about position
[22:52:51] <alex_joni> not about speed.. it's a different thing :D
[22:53:23] <xemet_> ok
[22:53:31] <xemet_> so I will not have problems
[22:54:26] <xemet_> I send phase A and phase B to encoder component, it generates counts I send counts to axis jog counts and everything will work
[22:54:34] <alex_joni> right
[22:55:15] <xemet_> ok...so I don't see why sending phase A and phase B with a sim-encoder doesn't work...
[22:55:29] <xemet_> but I'm not a developer it is not my job
[22:55:38] <xemet_> so I can't understand that
[22:56:04] <alex_joni> xemet_: I don't understand what's wrong with your setup
[22:57:22] <xemet_> alex: I know...it worked and now it doesn't work...I've not changed anything, so something has benn changed in the software, but I can't know what was changed because I'm not a developer
[22:58:44] <xemet_> alex: so I asked because I thought that maybe someone knows what is changed and why now it doesn't work...
[22:58:47] <alex_joni> xemet_: it might have been something that worked incorrectly before
[22:59:10] <alex_joni> the jogging related stuff was changed by me & cradek
[22:59:13] <xemet_> alex: no, it worked exactly as it was expected to work...
[22:59:35] <xemet_> alex; now it doesn't because the setup is crazy ok, but very simple
[22:59:55] <alex_joni> xemet_: I'm still not sure what was the expected you talk about
[22:59:59] <alex_joni> you mean the 16mm/min ?
[23:00:23] <xemet_> alex: alex, if it generates 60 counts per sec
[23:01:14] <xemet_> alex: the *expected* is that if I change the jog scale the jog speed has to change
[23:01:26] <alex_joni> not necessarely
[23:01:44] <alex_joni> if you are limited by axis speed, it will not change the speed
[23:01:53] <alex_joni> but somehow I assume that's not the case
[23:02:01] <xemet_> alex: the limit speed is 1800 mm/min in my configuration
[23:02:13] <alex_joni> (if you hit the axis limit, it will keep moving after you release the joystick)
[23:02:31] <xemet_> alex: and before the 2.1.2 I had tuned it to go exactly at 1800 mm/min
[23:02:44] <xemet_> alex: changing the scale
[23:03:19] <xemet_> alex: when I tried to increase it anymore, it did keep moving
[23:03:49] <alex_joni> xemet_: and 2.1.3 doesn't keep moving no matter how large you make scale?
[23:04:00] <xemet_> alex: *not*
[23:04:12] <xemet_> alex:.......I said to you I set the scale to 100000000000000000000000000
[23:04:15] <alex_joni> hmm
[23:04:19] <xemet_> alex: I was not joking
[23:04:31] <alex_joni> well.. you can't set it to 100000000000000000000000000
[23:04:36] <xemet_> alex: the speed remains 5 mm/min, it sops imediately
[23:04:56] <xemet_> alex: ok it was an example value to say that I tried to set it high
[23:05:14] <xemet_> alex: I tried 1, 2, 10,20, 100, 1000
[23:05:40] <xemet_> alex: i tried 0.01, 0.00001 , 0.0000001
[23:05:45] <alex_joni> I see
[23:05:48] <xemet_> alex: and nothing changed
[23:06:07] <xemet_> alex: so the *expected* (in my opinion) is not meet
[23:07:18] <alex_joni> xemet_: I don't have a jogwheel to test, but cradek has one..
[23:07:51] <xemet_> alex: my intention was not to say that the work has been done bad
[23:08:06] <CIA-27> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/ (freqgen.9 stepgen.9): revised man pages for freqgen and stepgen
[23:08:06] <CIA-27> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/stepgen.c: revised man pages for freqgen and stepgen
[23:08:15] <jmkasunich> is there anything I can do to help figure out what is going on?
[23:08:19] <xemet_> alex: I really appreciate your work, and I really like emc community
[23:08:27] <jmkasunich> or would that just mean explaining everything all over again?
[23:08:52] <xemet_> jmkasunich: I'm going to bed...00.19 AM here...
[23:09:05] <jmkasunich> ok
[23:09:48] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: the problem is the following: it seems axis.X.jog-scale has no influence on the jogwheel jogging
[23:10:01] <alex_joni> which I find rather odd .. by reading the code
[23:10:01] <xemet_> alex: just I thought that maybe there could be a problem so I thought it would be interesting for a developer to know it
[23:10:26] <jmkasunich> ok, I should be able to test that
[23:11:21] <jmkasunich> the sim-encoder -> encoder -> axis.N.jog-counts config shows this?
[23:11:49] <jmkasunich> that should be easy enough for anybody to test
[23:11:55] <alex_joni> he's driving sim-encoder with the same speed
[23:12:12] <jmkasunich> right - constant speed to sim encoder = constant "wheel" speed
[23:12:12] <xemet_> jmkasunich: I know it is crazy...it was only an experiment to learn hal
[23:12:16] <alex_joni> and changing axis.N.jog-scale doesn't make any difference
[23:12:25] <jmkasunich> and you saw that too?
[23:12:31] <alex_joni> my machine is down atm
[23:12:35] <jmkasunich> oh
[23:12:43] <jmkasunich> ok. I'll try to reproduce it
[23:13:02] <xemet_> jmkasunich: however it is very simple configuration and should work...
[23:13:09] <jmkasunich> of course I'm going to use nice american inch configs, so my scalings will be differnt than your euro stuff
[23:13:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: to noisy to fire up at 1am
[23:13:12] <jmkasunich> funny mm things
[23:14:03] <xemet_> well, inch or mm shouldn't make the difference :)
[23:14:15] <jmkasunich> it changes some of the numbers is all
[23:14:26] <xemet_> no problems with numbers
[23:14:52] <jmkasunich> actually, I can start with stepper-mm config.....
[23:15:09] <alex_joni> xemet_: before you go
[23:15:13] <xemet_> people, I need to sleep...
[23:15:17] <xemet_> alex: yes
[23:15:17] <alex_joni> can you put your config somewhere online?
[23:15:26] <xemet_> what you need?
[23:15:38] <jmkasunich> ini and hal files mostly
[23:16:29] <xemet_> wait a moment
[23:16:30] <alex_joni> maybe pastebin is enough
[23:17:10] <xemet_> http://www.pastebin.ca/400855
[23:17:12] <xemet_> ini file
[23:18:38] <xemet_> http://www.pastebin.ca/400858
[23:18:50] <xemet_> joypad.hal (it is in the wiki too)
[23:19:00] <xemet_> do you need other?
[23:19:52] <jmkasunich> hard to say
[23:20:08] <xemet_> pinout?
[23:20:32] <jmkasunich> I'm sim-encoder->encoder->axis.0.jogstuff to an existing config manually (just using halcmd)
[23:20:48] <jmkasunich> I'm _adding_ sim-encoder....
[23:22:01] <xemet_> pinout (I don't think it is needed...) http://www.pastebin.ca/400860
[23:22:04] <jmkasunich> encoder position scale does not need to be in your hal file
[23:22:11] <jmkasunich> because counts doesn't use scaling
[23:22:32] <jmkasunich> also, I think encoder x4 defaults to true, so it doesn't need to be there either
[23:22:41] <xemet_> jmkasunich: it was put there when I saved the hal configuration from halcmd
[23:22:49] <jmkasunich> oh
[23:22:55] <xemet_> i used save all
[23:23:01] <xemet_> and everything was put there...
[23:23:06] <jmkasunich> hmm... thats a bug
[23:23:18] <jmkasunich> save (or show) of a u32 number prints it in hex
[23:23:32] <jmkasunich> 00000064 is hex for 100
[23:23:56] <jmkasunich> but if you read back the save commands, it will be interpreted as 64 decimal
[23:24:04] <jmkasunich> yet another reason to stop printing in hex
[23:24:28] <xemet_> jmkasunich: I don't know, it saved the file and I leaved those parameters there
[23:24:47] <jmkasunich> doesn't matter - its not related to the problem we're investigating
[23:24:50] <jmkasunich> just an observation
[23:24:59] <xemet_> jmkasunich: ok
[23:25:26] <jmkasunich> oh, there is one problem in your hal file
[23:25:28] <jmkasunich> dammit
[23:25:32] <xemet_> tell me
[23:25:41] <jmkasunich> oh, you didn't leave...
[23:25:46] <xemet_> I'm here
[23:25:46] <jmkasunich> lines 93-95 in the pastebin
[23:25:53] <xemet_> only I turned off one of two pc
[23:26:00] <jmkasunich> you are using the same signal name in 3 net commands
[23:26:20] <jmkasunich> do you want the same signal to go to all three places?
[23:27:11] <xemet_> jmkasunich: uhm I think yes
[23:27:23] <jmkasunich> if so, I would write it "net jogscale mux2.0.out => axis.0.jog-scale axis.1.jog-scale axis.2.jog-scale"
[23:27:28] <xemet_> jmkasunich: I want only one scale for the three axes
[23:27:45] <xemet_> jmkasunich: ok, thanks!
[23:28:02] <xemet_> jmkasunich: did not know that
[23:28:14] <jmkasunich> I suspect that "net" does the right thing when the signal already exists, but...
[23:28:36] <xemet_> jmkasunich: it worked...
[23:28:56] <xemet_> jmkasunich: so it surely does the right thing
[23:29:02] <jmkasunich> ok
[23:29:09] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich goes back to halcmd
[23:30:24] <jmkasunich> ok, got 400 counts per second
[23:30:32] <jmkasunich> (from the encoder
[23:31:50] <xemet_> jmkasunich: just I want to say...in the "hal side" in my configuration everything work
[23:32:04] <xemet_> if I look at signals with halmeter
[23:32:07] <jmkasunich> ok
[23:32:08] <xemet_> everything is right
[23:32:16] <xemet_> counts per second are ok
[23:32:36] <xemet_> the problem is when I use it in emc2
[23:33:05] <jmkasunich> it seems to work for me (but I'm just estimating the jog rate by looking at the numbers on the screen)
[23:33:18] <jmkasunich> lemme add a ddt to the x position, and halmeter the velocity
[23:33:58] <xemet_> jmkasunich: it works "stand alone"...the problem is when I use it for the task it is made for
[23:34:11] <jmkasunich> I understand
[23:34:16] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: use AXIS.. it has a vel readout
[23:34:25] <jmkasunich> I am running emc, and the position I intend to ddt is the output of EMC
[23:34:33] <jmkasunich> too late, I've started with tkemc
[23:34:53] <xemet_> I use axis...don't know if it could make the difference...
[23:39:25] <xemet_> news?
[23:39:39] <jmkasunich> not yet
[23:41:57] <jmkasunich> what range of numbers have you used for jog-scale?
[23:42:13] <xemet_> original was 0.1 and 0.01
[23:42:22] <jmkasunich> that is 0.1 and 0.01 mm per count?
[23:42:32] <xemet_> I think so...
[23:42:42] <jmkasunich> and what rate were you sending counts at?
[23:42:50] <jmkasunich> 64 ppr on the sim encoder, right>?
[23:42:54] <xemet_> but now I've tried from 0.0001 to 100000
[23:43:04] <xemet_> yes I think
[23:43:04] <jmkasunich> well 100000 is just insand
[23:43:07] <jmkasunich> insane
[23:43:11] <xemet_> I think :)
[23:43:20] <xemet_> anyway...nothing happened
[23:43:30] <xemet_> speed was always the same
[23:43:34] <jmkasunich> what about if you set jog-scale to zero?
[23:43:42] <xemet_> not tried...
[23:44:08] <xemet_> do I try?
[23:44:12] <alex_joni> xemet_: sure
[23:44:12] <jmkasunich> sure
[23:44:28] <Jymmmm> I'm working on the belt/disc sander I got from HF yesterday. when I place a steel rule across the disc, I can see the outside is higher than the inside. I've been trying to sand down the high spots to get it flat, but it seems that nothing is happening at all, but I KNOW it's removing material (60grit, 320grit, and even a file). Even if the platen is warped, shouldn't I still be able to flaten it?
[23:44:38] <alex_joni> xemet_: usually we don't ask question just to ask..
[23:45:03] <alex_joni> xemet_: this time jmkasunich is wondering if the position goal is updated properly (delta * scale)
[23:45:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: right?
[23:45:19] <jmkasunich> no, I'm just wondering if it stops when the scale is zero
[23:45:23] <jmkasunich> (it does here)
[23:45:35] <alex_joni> it's the same in different words :)
[23:46:32] <xemet_> it would be difficult for me to understand jmkasunich goal in a normal situation...but at 1 AM it is really impossible
[23:46:46] <alex_joni> xemet_: don't dispair.. it's close to 2am here ;)
[23:46:57] <alex_joni> and I bet there are places where it's 3AM
[23:47:00] <toastydeath> are you guys in the UK?
[23:47:10] <jmkasunich> set axis.whatever.jog-scale to zero
[23:47:18] <jmkasunich> and see if the axis moves (at all) when you try to jog it
[23:47:20] <alex_joni> toastydeath: europe, .ro here
[23:47:23] <xemet_> alex: i'm not interested in plaece where are 3 AM...I'm tired
[23:47:28] <xemet_> anyway
[23:47:31] <xemet_> with zero
[23:47:38] <xemet_> everything doesn't move
[23:47:55] <jmkasunich> good
[23:48:10] <xemet_> I'm happy :)
[23:48:13] <jmkasunich> ok, here I set the sim encoder ppr to 1, and the speed to 0.25
[23:48:20] <jmkasunich> that makes one count per second
[23:49:10] <xemet_> the speed cames from joypad...
[23:49:22] <jmkasunich> for you maybe....
[23:49:28] <xemet_> of course
[23:49:28] <jmkasunich> for me it comes from setp
[23:49:31] <alex_joni> xemet_: your speed is 1 from joypad (the max one)
[23:49:32] <xemet_> for me
[23:49:32] <jmkasunich> much easier to control ;-)
[23:49:55] <xemet_> my speed is variable... from 0 to 1 at max
[23:50:09] <xemet_> so it is difficult for me to keep it at 0.25...
[23:50:14] <alex_joni> xemet_: do you see any speed change while going form 0 to 1 ?
[23:50:14] <jmkasunich> understood
[23:50:28] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: something funky is definitely going on
[23:50:30] <xemet_> alex: yes
[23:50:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: at your end too?
[23:50:42] <jmkasunich> with one count per second, the increments on the display should be exactly the same as jog-scale
[23:50:52] <jmkasunich> for jog-scale = 0.0001, it matches
[23:51:14] <jmkasunich> for jog-scale = 0.001, I only get about 0.0005 for each count
[23:51:33] <jmkasunich> and the same for jog-scale = 0.01
[23:51:58] <alex_joni> /* calculate distance to jog */
[23:51:58] <alex_joni> distance = delta * *(axis_data->jog_scale);
[23:52:00] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks at the code
[23:52:07] <alex_joni> control.c
[23:52:25] <xemet_> so maybe there is a problem
[23:52:35] <xemet_> anyway, I go to sleep
[23:52:41] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[23:52:43] <xemet_> I need
[23:52:51] <alex_joni> xemet_: good night
[23:52:55] <xemet_> night all, thank you very much for helping
[23:53:36] <jmkasunich> xemet
[23:53:41] <jmkasunich> one last question
[23:53:43] <xemet_> ok
[23:53:45] <jmkasunich> did this ever work?
[23:53:46] <xemet_> the last
[23:53:56] <xemet_> before 2.1.2
[23:53:57] <jmkasunich> and when did it stop working>
[23:53:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: he said it worked before 2.1.2
[23:54:03] <jmkasunich> sorry, thats two questiions ;-)
[23:54:05] <alex_joni> stopped working with 2.1.2
[23:54:07] <xemet_> used every day before 2,1,2
[23:54:09] <jmkasunich> ok, thank you
[23:54:12] <xemet_> in a lot of places
[23:54:28] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: when did you add all this FREE_TP_SOURCE stuff?
[23:54:35] <alex_joni> 2.1.3
[23:54:35] <xemet_> night
[23:54:58] <jmkasunich> not 2.1.2?
[23:55:12] <alex_joni> no, cradek had another "fix" for 2.1.2
[23:55:18] <alex_joni> but that wasn't the right one
[23:55:35] <jmkasunich> so people have been mucking about in this area recently....
[23:55:56] <jmkasunich> ha! I found the problem
[23:56:08] <jmkasunich> /* did the wheel move? */
[23:56:08] <jmkasunich> if ( delta == 0 ) {
[23:56:08] <jmkasunich> /* no, nothing to do, except clear the JOGWHEEL souce flag */
[23:56:08] <jmkasunich> if (joint->free_tp_source == FREE_TP_SOURCE_JOGWHEEL) {
[23:56:08] <jmkasunich> joint->free_tp_enable = 0;
[23:56:09] <jmkasunich> joint->free_tp_source = FREE_TP_SOURCE_NONE;
[23:56:09] <jmkasunich> }
[23:56:11] <jmkasunich> continue;
[23:56:15] <jmkasunich> }
[23:56:30] <jmkasunich> just because the wheel didn't move does NOT mean that the jog from a previous wheel movement is finished
[23:56:37] <alex_joni> ahh.. right
[23:56:40] <jmkasunich> you can't turn off free_tp_enable
[23:56:43] <alex_joni> joint->free_tp_active
[23:56:50] <alex_joni> right
[23:57:07] <jmkasunich> this free tp source stuff is messed up
[23:57:12] <jmkasunich> there has got to be a better way
[23:57:25] <alex_joni> why do you say that?
[23:57:33] <jmkasunich> because its a mess
[23:57:50] <sent> small and silly question (I am total newbie, fun times ahead :) - could I run EMC2 from a laptop (1GHz Athlon), or I'd be better off with 'normal' desktop computer?
[23:58:05] <alex_joni> sent: usually there are laptops with RT issues
[23:58:17] <alex_joni> sent: you can get lucky though and it works without problems
[23:58:23] <jmkasunich> sometimes the power management and such in a laptop causes problems
[23:58:33] <jmkasunich> sometimes laptop parallel ports are only 3.3V and that causes problems
[23:58:36] <alex_joni> sent: but generally speaking a laptop is less likely to work OK than a desktop
[23:58:39] <jmkasunich> sometimes it works ok