#emc | Logs for 2007-02-12

[00:01:54] <anonimasu> yep
[02:40:19] <ejholmgren_> get a dell dude
[04:13:26] <skunkworks> ok - I have figured out swpadnos looks a bit like the lead singer of the red hot chilli peppers. (without tattoos)
[04:13:36] <ejholmgren_> hah
[04:13:52] <ejholmgren_> does he have long hair?
[04:14:50] <skunkworks> 4th from the right
[04:14:51] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/cncworkshop/cncworkshopemc.jpg
[04:17:08] <ejholmgren_> AH!
[04:17:10] <ejholmgren_> too many beards
[04:17:22] <skunkworks> linux people. it is required
[04:17:28] <Skullworks> was that from the most recent gathering?
[04:17:33] <skunkworks> yes
[04:17:50] <ejholmgren_> I was actually looking for beard wax at the store today ...
[04:17:55] <ejholmgren_> the goatee is getting out of control
[04:18:16] <Skullworks> OK - I see Jon to the left of him - who are the others
[04:18:28] <SWPLinux> from the left:
[04:18:57] <SWPLinux> Steve Stallings, Matt Shaver, John Kasunich, Raty Henry, Jon Elson, Me, Dave engvall (I think), Scott Hamilton, Chris Radek
[04:19:15] <SWPLinux> - the t in Ray's name :)
[04:19:31] <skunkworks> sounds right to me. we should really have a named photo.
[04:20:10] <skunkworks> you forgot jeff epler
[04:20:20] <SWPLinux> oh - whoops
[04:20:32] <SWPLinux> just after John K
[04:20:38] <Skullworks> I'd love to attend some of these, but its easier to get a root canal done than to get a week off work it seems.
[04:20:39] <skunkworks> :)
[04:20:43] <SWPLinux> big typo there :)
[04:20:57] <SWPLinux> tell them you're getting a root canal
[04:21:16] <ejholmgren_> fall terminally ill
[04:21:19] <ejholmgren_> and then get better
[04:24:00] <Skullworks> They allready consumed all my PTO with a plant closure from Dec 21 - Jan 2... Trying to earn it back...but its slow going.
[04:24:50] <skunkworks> ok - what does pto stand for?
[04:25:17] <skunkworks> paid time off?
[04:26:14] <Skullworks> yep - combined vacation & sick time
[04:26:45] <Skullworks> the just call it PTO, pre-excused or not
[04:28:08] <ejholmgren_> hrmmnnn...
[04:28:25] <ejholmgren_> * ejholmgren_ contemplates bronze bearings running on drill rod
[04:28:30] <Skullworks> get sick without PTO then its a writeup unless you have written doctors orders or hospital recipts
[04:28:33] <ejholmgren_> I must be a cheap-ass
[04:29:01] <Skullworks> Skate bearings...
[04:29:16] <Skullworks> cheaper in lots of 100
[04:31:01] <jmkasunich> in a dirty environment, bronze is better than bearings
[04:31:25] <jmkasunich> bronze pushes crud aside, bearings roll over it (and roll it into the rail if its hard)
[04:33:26] <Skullworks> I have a Seig X3 / Grizzley I'm retrofitting.
[04:34:21] <Skullworks> I was thinking about just using precision acme lead screws with anti-backlash nuts.
[04:34:32] <ejholmgren_> jmk: will flanged bronze bearings work for linear motion as well?
[04:35:24] <ejholmgren_> only see references to radial and thrust
[04:35:57] <jmkasunich> you mean round bearings on round rods?
[04:36:05] <jmkasunich> sure they'll work
[04:36:17] <jmkasunich> its just a matter of details
[04:36:48] <jmkasunich> round rods have limited stiffness - gotta choose a diameter that meets your needs
[04:37:14] <jmkasunich> and round bearings must have some non-zero clearance to slide on the rods, which could allow some shifting
[04:37:26] <jmkasunich> gotta quantify that and decide what is "good enough"
[04:37:26] <ejholmgren_> ok
[04:37:38] <ejholmgren_> this is my first machine
[04:37:44] <ejholmgren_> so anything is good enough
[04:38:00] <jmkasunich> if you are going for very long travel, round rods suck, because with only end support they have to be huge to avoid bending
[04:38:27] <jmkasunich> most other forms of linear guide can be supported all along their length
[04:38:34] <ejholmgren_> length will be ~16" or so
[04:38:41] <ejholmgren_> using 1/2" diameter
[04:38:44] <jmkasunich> travel, or length?
[04:39:00] <ejholmgren_> length
[04:39:01] <jmkasunich> an 8" long table on a 16" rod will have less than 8" of travel
[04:39:18] <jmkasunich> what do you intend to cut?
[04:39:24] <ejholmgren_> wood
[04:39:35] <ejholmgren_> pine and ply
[04:40:10] <ejholmgren_> and maybe some pcbs
[04:40:29] <jmkasunich> 1/2" seems a bit thin
[04:40:31] <jmkasunich> but that can be calculated
[04:40:53] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich googles
[04:40:58] <ejholmgren_> I've considered doubling up on each side of the x axis
[04:41:13] <jmkasunich> go fatter, not more
[04:41:17] <ejholmgren_> o
[04:41:22] <ejholmgren_> ok
[04:41:30] <jmkasunich> stiffness goes as the square of diameter
[04:41:41] <jmkasunich> a 3/4" bar is as strong as two 1/2" bars
[04:41:51] <ejholmgren_> good to know
[04:42:04] <jmkasunich> aligninment is tricky with two rails, you _don't_ want four
[04:42:34] <jmkasunich> (the rails have to be exactly the same distance apart at both ends, and both sets of bearings need to be exactly the same distance apart too
[04:43:00] <jmkasunich> (I'm assuming two rods, each with two bearings/bushings sliding on it)
[04:43:09] <ejholmgren_> yes
[04:43:13] <ejholmgren_> gantry type
[04:44:25] <ejholmgren_> pier_port>ejholmgren_: thanks... removing APIC from kernel did the trick...
[04:44:34] <ejholmgren_> yay, I acutally helped someone for once
[04:45:50] <ejholmgren_> I saw a post where someone used linear ball bearings and they immediately scored the fsck out of the drill rod
[04:46:08] <ejholmgren_> bronze should be quite a bit softer than the steel, right?
[04:46:28] <jmkasunich> yes, bronze is softer
[04:47:34] <Roguish> jmkasunich: thanks again. got it all tuned again and it's quite snappy now without f-errors. [f-errors about .0005 at .10 jogs at 50ipm]
[04:47:50] <Skullworks> They also make some nice delrin bearings for this - think the name ins Thompson Drylin or some such.
[04:49:16] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/CIM-before-final-assy.jpg
[04:49:29] <jmkasunich> that is a round bar slide I made
[04:49:41] <jmkasunich> 3/4" bar, about 2" travel
[04:49:59] <Skullworks> Also - there is a material called CPO - Chromed Polished ground bar - its sold for hydrolic cylinder rod.
[04:50:06] <jmkasunich> but designed for a load of 1000 lbs (it was a lab test jig to stretch things)
[04:50:27] <jmkasunich> I used 1045 TGP (turned ground polished) rod, not very expensive
[04:50:39] <jmkasunich> bronze bushings
[04:50:49] <Skullworks> cost is close to drill rod, but its half hard and available in 10ft lengths
[04:51:11] <Skullworks> yep - thats the stuff
[04:58:37] <jmkasunich> if I did the math right, a 20 lb load in the middle of a 16" long x 1/2" diameter steel rod that is supported at the ends will deflect it by 0.019 inches
[04:59:28] <jmkasunich> same load on a 1" rod will deflect it about 0.0012"
[05:00:26] <jmkasunich> fatter is definitely better
[05:01:14] <ejholmgren> http://imagebin.org/7271
[05:01:18] <jmkasunich> darn
[05:01:25] <ejholmgren> drives are hooked up
[05:01:32] <ejholmgren> minus the one I accidentally smoked
[05:01:35] <jmkasunich> did you get disconnected?
[05:01:55] <ejholmgren> the other one is on the mac
[05:02:01] <jmkasunich> ok
[05:02:07] <jmkasunich> so you saw the calcs for 1/2" rod?
[05:02:15] <ejholmgren_> kvm for the win
[05:02:20] <ejholmgren_> yeah
[05:02:47] <ejholmgren_> almost 1/32"
[05:02:58] <ejholmgren_> not too bad for what I'll be doing
[05:03:00] <jmkasunich> stiffness for a bar goes as the fourth power of the diameter
[05:03:09] <jmkasunich> 1/32 = horrible
[05:03:15] <jmkasunich> even if you are doing wood
[05:04:12] <ejholmgren_> it's for flat relief woodblock prints
[05:04:54] <jmkasunich> at least go with 3/4"
[05:05:10] <jmkasunich> that will give you 0.0038 deflection with 20 lbs load
[05:06:35] <ejholmgren> fine, I give
[05:06:41] <ejholmgren> 3/4" it is
[05:06:41] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[05:06:46] <ejholmgren> http://imagebin.org/7272
[05:07:02] <jmkasunich> trust me - the additional cost and weight will be worth it in avoided vibration
[05:07:18] <ejholmgren> http://imagebin.org/7273
[05:07:21] <jmkasunich> what are all the outlets for?
[05:07:30] <ejholmgren> relay box is getting wired up for classic ladder
[05:13:16] <ejholmgren> outlets: so I can control _normal_ things ;)
[05:13:45] <jmkasunich> router (spindle) and shopvac for dust?
[05:14:06] <jmkasunich> or normal like non-CNC things?
[05:14:13] <ejholmgren> non-cnc
[05:14:20] <ejholmgren> evironmental control
[05:15:06] <ejholmgren> although stepper-driven dampers would be badass
[05:29:33] <K`zan> Night folks
[05:29:53] <Skullworks> nite
[05:39:41] <fenn> ejholmgren: even 1" pipe wobbles a lot.. i couldnt cut plastic even
[05:40:20] <fenn> this was something like 30"x20" travel
[05:41:15] <fenn> you can use EMT it might be cheaper, they sell big stuff at most building supplies
[05:41:21] <fenn> fill the tubes with sand
[05:42:02] <fenn> and skate bearings.. i dont really think dust is a huge issue if you're only doing wood
[05:42:52] <fenn> EMT== metal electrical conduit
[05:46:07] <ejholmgren> fenn: pipe or rod?
[05:46:21] <fenn> pipe.. rod is wasted metal and too expensive to get a proper diameter
[05:46:32] <fenn> check the prices on 3" drill rod?
[05:46:43] <ejholmgren> heh
[05:47:02] <fenn> stiffness is the same
[05:47:05] <ejholmgren> I only need about 1/3 of that travel
[05:49:07] <Skullworks> EMT is too thin until you get over 1.5"
[05:49:15] <Skullworks> even then...
[05:50:05] <fenn> ok, gas pipe then
[05:50:45] <Skullworks> not me
[05:51:20] <Skullworks> but I agree on the skate earing idea
[05:52:00] <Skullworks> but I agree on the skate bearing idea
[05:52:37] <Skullworks> just not on black (gas) pipe
[05:53:15] <fenn> yes, black pipe, all the galvanized crap makes it uneven
[05:54:46] <Skullworks> ugh - I'd shell out the cash for DOM tubing before using black pipe.
[05:55:35] <fenn> how then? drill rod bolted to a support structure?
[05:56:19] <Skullworks> 1 sec
[05:57:11] <ejholmgren_> thread the ends
[05:58:21] <fenn> ejholmgren: i mean bolted down every 5 inches or so
[06:00:46] <ejholmgren_> bottom supports with open bearings?
[06:01:07] <fenn> yes
[06:05:49] <jmkasunich> pipe?
[06:05:56] <jmkasunich> have you ever looked at the tolerances on pipe?
[06:06:00] <jmkasunich> sheesh
[06:06:12] <fenn> oh hush
[06:06:16] <fenn> it's wood
[06:06:21] <fenn> will bend 20% when you unclamp it
[06:08:24] <jmkasunich> part tolerances are only part of the picture
[06:09:08] <jmkasunich> how can you get smooth and wobble free travel when your rail isn't neccessarily the same size over its length?
[06:09:30] <ds3> machine the pipe
[06:10:00] <Skullworks> THAT - is much easier said than done!
[06:10:26] <ds3> how long is it? (sorry, missed the beginning)
[06:10:46] <jmkasunich> 16" or so
[06:11:25] <ds3> shouldn't be hard... sign up for a class at a JC and use their lathes...seems to be pretty common for JCs to have a lathe with >30inches
[06:11:26] <Skullworks> don't really matter much - more than 8" your going to have all sorts of taper/finish issues
[06:11:39] <ds3> follower rest
[06:11:52] <jmkasunich> two pieces of 3/4" 1045 TGP rod are $15.58 from metal express
[06:11:56] <jmkasunich> thats not each, thats total
[06:12:03] <Skullworks> follower is the best option
[06:12:21] <jmkasunich> fscking cheapskates using crappy pipe to save a nickel or two
[06:12:36] <fenn> fscking cheapskates with no money
[06:12:38] <Skullworks> unless you could just start off with gound stock to begin with.
[06:12:46] <fenn> lets just make it out of solid diamond
[06:12:49] <ds3> 3/4" W2 isn't that expensive... think it was ~$10 when I got it
[06:12:55] <jmkasunich> TGP is turned, ground, and polished
[06:13:24] <ds3> enco + free shipping on the drill rod
[06:13:51] <Skullworks> yep - buy the good stuff, you will have enough other details to sweat over.
[06:14:16] <jmkasunich> there are plenty of places where you can save $5 or $10 without making life hard for yourself
[06:14:33] <fenn> jmkasunich: what scale machine are you talking about?
[06:14:48] <ds3> 16" might be available as rems
[06:14:53] <jmkasunich> I'm not, ejholmgren is
[06:16:16] <fenn> way i see it, using pipe allows you to mess with the material properties like damping coefficient
[06:16:28] <fenn> or tubing
[06:16:44] <fenn> preload that sucker
[06:17:01] <jmkasunich> if you can find a source of tubing with an _accurate_ and smooth OD, then more power to you
[06:17:20] <jmkasunich> I have nothing against the rods being hollow, I do have something against the outside being crap
[06:17:23] <Skullworks> I have 4x 25# bags of lead shot if I want damping...
[06:17:47] <ds3> is lead better then sand for damping?
[06:18:00] <Skullworks> mass is mass
[06:18:21] <fenn> if you soak the sand in heavy oil you get some viscous damping too.. but mass is more effective
[06:18:22] <jmkasunich> mass alone isn't the answer
[06:18:36] <Skullworks> true
[06:18:40] <jmkasunich> damping is good, mass can help, but nothing replaces stiffness
[06:18:56] <Skullworks> you could just have a heavy bell
[06:18:57] <ds3> hmmm 16".... tried looking at paper towel racks at stores?
[06:19:03] <fenn> sand + lead + oil == toxic waste
[06:19:54] <jmkasunich> also - a good fitting sleeve bearing with an oil film (bronze bushings on TGP bar) has incredibly more damping than point contact (skate bearings on anything)
[06:20:05] <Skullworks> * Skullworks wonders how he knew my lead ingots all have the term "TOXIC WASTE" cast into them.
[06:20:40] <jmkasunich> skate bearings have only one advantage - they can be open, allowing support along the rail
[06:20:50] <jmkasunich> if the machine is long enough, that is a huge factor
[06:20:56] <jmkasunich> 16" is not that long
[06:21:20] <fenn> 8" of travel is mighty small
[06:21:55] <jmkasunich> agreed, but not my spec
[06:22:12] <jmkasunich> sherlines have about that on x, less on y and z
[06:23:40] <fenn> jmkasunich: if you were to cut a thread for a leadscrew in a pipe.. what would you use for raw material?
[06:23:59] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't be so insane
[06:24:03] <fenn> dammit
[06:24:14] <fenn> is this in the realm of grinding?
[06:24:16] <jmkasunich> most pipe is crappy steel
[06:24:27] <fenn> well, tubing of some sort
[06:24:35] <fenn> something mostly hollow
[06:24:55] <ds3> I'd sooner use allthread
[06:25:00] <fenn> say about 3" dia
[06:25:02] <jmkasunich> you are assuming that time has absolutely no value at all, including time on machines that the average person doesn't even have access to, to save a few bucks
[06:25:09] <jmkasunich> 3"?
[06:25:14] <jmkasunich> why so big?
[06:25:18] <fenn> er..
[06:25:25] <fenn> it's top secret :P
[06:25:30] <jmkasunich> friction is gonna kill you
[06:25:35] <fenn> nah i'm using roller screws
[06:25:40] <ejholmgren_> hmrrnnn ... metalexpress even has stock on 'burb away from me
[06:26:10] <jmkasunich> fenn: I don't think I want to know
[06:26:22] <jmkasunich> a good roller screw needs extreme precision, and very hard steel
[06:26:41] <jmkasunich> if its soft enough to machine, its too soft to make a proper roller screw
[06:27:05] <jmkasunich> you could get hard stuff and grind it, but you are talking about hundreds of dollars worth of grinder time
[06:28:00] <jmkasunich> roller screws, ballscrews, rolling element linear bearings, and skate wheels on pipe all involve point or at best line contact, not area contact
[06:28:12] <fenn> yeah
[06:28:15] <jmkasunich> so you get _extremely_ high contact pressure, even at moderate loads
[06:28:27] <fenn> roller screws have less contact pressure than ballscrews
[06:28:39] <jmkasunich> and unless you are using good steel with good heat-treating, you will have fatigue and wear
[06:28:51] <jmkasunich> line vs. point - yes, roller is better
[06:29:10] <jmkasunich> still can't use soft steel and expect long life or accuracy
[06:29:25] <fenn> hence why i'm asking your opinion
[06:29:48] <jmkasunich> acme with bronze is easier to build, cheaper, and if sized right can have reasonable friction
[06:30:24] <fenn> is there such a thing as a hydrostatic leadscrew?
[06:30:28] <jmkasunich> I don't get the desire to use exotic technologies without the corresponding exotic materials and techniques, on what are fundamentally simple machines
[06:30:52] <jmkasunich> hydrostatic?
[06:31:09] <jmkasunich> I understand that to mean oil pumped under pressure into the bearing/nut
[06:31:13] <fenn> ok, hydrostatic bearings are exotic technology, sure, but roller screws really aren't
[06:31:25] <fenn> yes
[06:31:51] <jmkasunich> roller screws need at least two or three rollers, made of hardened steel, with precise tolerances
[06:32:05] <jmkasunich> an outer shell, and a screw, also hardened, and also precise
[06:32:31] <jmkasunich> backlash in the assembly is gonna be on the same order as the tolerances of the parts, if not worse
[06:32:54] <fenn> you can make anti-backlash nuts
[06:33:16] <jmkasunich> anti-backlash roller nuts?
[06:33:19] <fenn> yeah why not?
[06:33:37] <jmkasunich> why not make antibacklash acme nuts in 1/10th the time and 1/50th the cost
[06:34:32] <Skullworks> * Skullworks thats my plan...
[06:34:34] <fenn> well, i'd still have to make the leadscrew.. unless they make hollow large diameter acme screws
[06:34:52] <jmkasunich> you need big and hollow for some other reason?
[06:35:11] <jmkasunich> spindle thru the middle or something?
[06:35:19] <ejholmgren> is it sexual?
[06:35:28] <Skullworks> why the obsession with hollow? - You going to carry this on your back?
[06:35:38] <fenn> big for stiffness with misalignment, hollow to save mass and to fit a viscoelastic shear layer
[06:35:45] <fenn> yes i'm going to carry it on my back
[06:35:50] <fenn> or close enough
[06:36:14] <jmkasunich> have you done the math, or did you pick 3" out of the air?
[06:36:21] <fenn> i picked 3" out of the air
[06:36:31] <jmkasunich> there is a fourth power rule for stiffness vs diameter
[06:36:53] <jmkasunich> so unless you are doing insane things with this, there is no fscking way you need 3"
[06:37:18] <jmkasunich> 3" is 256 times stiffer than 3/4"
[06:37:41] <fenn> i look at it in terms of overall proportions
[06:37:52] <fenn> if it doesnt work in a scale model it wont work on a large version
[06:38:14] <fenn> is that wrong?
[06:38:23] <jmkasunich> yes
[06:38:28] <jmkasunich> not everything scales the same
[06:38:56] <jmkasunich> some stuff is proportional to size, some to size squared, some to size cubed, some to size^4
[06:41:16] <jmkasunich> I don't understand what you are actually trying to do, and its 1:40 in the morning, so it doesn't make sense to even talk about it
[06:41:31] <Skullworks> scale up a bugs exoskeleton... after a point it can't support its own weight
[06:41:31] <fenn> heh thanks for trying anyway
[06:41:54] <fenn> yes eventually you get a spherical planet
[06:43:08] <jmkasunich> speaking of viscoelastic damping - you get that for free with acme screws and bronze sleeve bearings
[06:43:15] <fenn> i know
[06:43:17] <jmkasunich> the oil film has great damping properties
[06:43:57] <ds3> totally unrelated thought -- does the rules of electrostatics allow me to connect a stick to a terminal of a 20KV battery and suck powder out of a metal cup connected to the other terminal of the battery?
[06:44:20] <fenn> yes
[06:44:29] <fenn> it takes current to perform the transfer though
[06:44:33] <jmkasunich> stick = conductive I assume
[06:44:38] <Skullworks> Wiley E. coyote had it right, ALWAYS USE ACME!
[06:44:46] <ds3> stick as in a brass rod
[06:45:14] <ds3> I see. how does one research this? (tried looking up electrostatics and powder and got no where)
[06:45:47] <fenn> hmm.. maybe send a mail to pete gruendeman
[06:45:58] <fenn> he used to do stuff like that
[06:46:50] <ds3> hmmmmm
[06:47:24] <jmkasunich> finally got my geckos mounted to the heatsink
[06:47:33] <jmkasunich> gawd I hate heatsink grease
[06:47:35] <ds3> as in the fellow mentioned in this page? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ElectricalDischargeMachining
[06:47:40] <fenn> yeah
[06:48:32] <fenn> greundeman at att.net
[06:49:10] <ds3> just att.net? got a hit for world.att.net instead
[06:49:16] <ds3> worldnet I mean
[06:49:25] <fenn> shrug.. try both i guess
[06:49:39] <jmkasunich> worldnet.att.net and att.net mail goes to the same place
[06:49:46] <ds3> 'k thanks. as foolish as I will sound, I'll give that a try
[06:49:52] <ds3> ah.
[06:50:07] <jmkasunich> (I have that ISP too... you can use jmkasunich at worldnet.att.net if you want extra typing, but att.net works and it what I tell people to use
[06:50:58] <ds3> seem to remember at one point Bell Labs wanted to use that as their internal addresses
[06:51:25] <fenn> http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/02/pcmaclinux-thumb.jpg
[07:05:01] <Skullworks> nite
[08:31:20] <a-l-p-h-a_> a-l-p-h-a_ is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[08:57:45] <tray> Anyone know the path to bin/hal_parport?
[08:58:10] <tray> using ubuntu
[13:44:13] <jepler> "The timer was a hall effect probe near a multi pole spinning magnet, and pulse rate could be adjusted by controlling motor speed,"
[13:44:18] <jepler> wow what a bizarre way to build a timer "circuit"
[14:13:18] <a-l-p-h-a> can python interface with a IO port (serial, or parallel?)
[14:20:30] <cradek> there's a nice serial module
[14:20:55] <a-l-p-h-a> reading django tutorial.
[14:44:55] <cradek> import serial
[14:44:57] <cradek> s = serial.Serial("/dev/phone", 115200, rtscts=1)
[14:45:16] <cradek> ^^ from a little program that reads out my phone's contact list
[14:45:35] <cradek> pyserial is very simple to use
[14:47:41] <jepler> apparently using the PC speaker is a cause of overruns in rtai, on at least some machines
[14:47:52] <jepler> (according to posts to the rtai mailing list in the last 24 hours)
[14:48:00] <cradek> bizarre
[14:49:01] <cradek> I finally unsubscribed
[14:53:03] <jepler> the docs that went with 2.0 still referred to bin/hal_parport even though it wasn't being built then .. but it looks like that's finally gone from the 2.1 and TRUNK manuals
[14:53:30] <cradek> oops
[15:04:52] <Guest917> hello friends
[15:05:01] <Guest917> i have one problem wit emc
[15:05:09] <Guest917> in terminal windows..
[15:05:14] <Guest917> returns it:
[15:06:33] <Guest917> cant´find "fuser",used to verify that it is safe to shutdown realtime
[15:07:31] <Guest917> i compiled emc 2.0.5 in slackware 10.0
[15:08:05] <cradek> that message is very descriptive - you will have to fix it
[15:08:49] <Guest917> you can help-me?
[15:09:37] <Guest443> hello friends..
[15:10:11] <Guest443> i compiled emc 2.0.5 in slackware, but in terminal returns it:
[15:10:38] <Guest443> can´t find "fuser"
[15:11:18] <Guest443> used to verify that it is safe to shutdown realtime
[15:11:36] <cradek> we know, you said that 4 minutes ago
[15:11:36] <Guest443> somebody help-me^?
[15:11:49] <Guest443> ?
[15:12:10] <cradek> if you can't fix that kind of simple problem you should use ubuntu, which the emc2 team supports
[15:13:44] <Guest443> i use ubuntu
[15:14:01] <Guest443> but i like slakcware
[15:14:38] <Guest443> you know about this message?
[15:32:33] <Guest443> ok
[15:32:41] <Guest443> how uninstall emc?
[15:35:10] <Guest443> i compiled it and i want unistall
[15:35:17] <Guest443> how make it?
[15:41:38] <rafa> hi friends!
[15:44:35] <SWPadnos> hello
[15:48:38] <rafa> taurus and wottan is a company whre we a introduct emc
[15:49:18] <rafa> Wottan is a company made cnc, taurus gun
[15:49:36] <rafa> for this i need one help
[15:49:50] <rafa> how unistall emc
[15:50:00] <rafa> i compiled
[15:50:22] <rafa> and y try re-compiled
[15:50:39] <rafa> how uninstall emc?
[15:51:57] <xemet> uhm...are you using Ubuntu?
[15:52:12] <rafa> no
[15:52:22] <rafa> a try in slack
[15:52:29] <SWPadnos> Well, there's no "make uninstall" option, so it isn't that simple
[15:52:40] <xemet> ok...sorry but I'm not an expert...
[15:52:58] <rafa> make unistall
[15:53:09] <rafa> make unistall?
[15:53:11] <SWPadnos> you can just delete the files that were installed
[15:53:17] <rafa> no
[15:53:35] <rafa> i enter in directory and make uninstall?
[15:53:41] <SWPadnos> you may have a harder time removing the realtime kernel (if you don't need it)
[15:53:52] <SWPadnos> no. I said there is no make uninstall option, so you have to do it manually
[15:54:26] <rafa> manualy, i delet files?
[15:54:31] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:54:39] <rafa> in make
[15:54:43] <rafa> i ..
[15:55:05] <rafa> no compiled for local folder
[15:55:16] <rafa> make an make install
[15:55:26] <rafa> no make run in place
[15:55:52] <rafa> friend thi program is ok
[15:56:04] <rafa> but terminal returns..
[15:56:08] <rafa> no fuser
[15:56:17] <rafa> watt this?
[15:56:30] <SWPadnos> fuser is a standard unix/linux program. I don't know why it's not there
[15:56:58] <rafa> i input fuser on terminal..
[15:57:03] <rafa> this ok ins slack
[15:57:24] <rafa> because no ok?
[15:57:42] <rafa> emc alone in ubuntu?
[15:57:54] <SWPadnos> in that case, something is wrong with the realtime system, which may be EMC or RTAI
[15:58:18] <SWPadnos> (or it's just a path problem with the emc script)
[15:58:20] <rafa> i compiled one kernel witt rtai
[15:59:10] <rafa> reinstall emc
[15:59:15] <rafa> reinstall emc?
[15:59:45] <SWPadnos> I don't know how to fix the problem - I only know about fuser from google :)
[16:00:07] <rafa> ok
[16:00:13] <rafa> i try
[16:00:19] <rafa> very thanks
[16:00:23] <xemet> anyone could help me? I've a question...
[16:00:26] <SWPadnos> you're welcome
[16:00:45] <xemet> I'm learning to use hal
[16:00:53] <xemet> so i'm not very good yet
[16:00:57] <rafa> and..
[16:01:29] <xemet> I'm trying to use hal_joystick to jog my cnc with a USB joypad
[16:01:59] <xemet> everything went well, the hal file work, there is only one pronlem, the jog-scale
[16:02:42] <rafa> Usb joypad works ok?
[16:02:45] <xemet> if I set it from the .hal file using setp axis.0.jog-scale 0.1
[16:02:56] <SWPadnos> the problem being that you can't change it from the joypad?
[16:03:09] <xemet> no
[16:03:25] <xemet> at this moment...for experiment
[16:03:35] <xemet> I would like to set the scale from the .hal file
[16:04:01] <xemet> but, when I set it, and start EMC2, if I look with halmeter at the jog-scale pin
[16:04:25] <xemet> its value is 0 even if in the hal file it was setted to 0.1
[16:04:44] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[16:04:49] <cradek> are you talking about axis.N.jog-scale?
[16:04:49] <xemet> now if I change this value using "show hal configuration" where I can execute a command
[16:04:55] <xemet> yes
[16:05:07] <xemet> for example axis.0.jog-scale
[16:05:19] <cradek> how are you going to generate counts for axis.N.jog-counts using the joystick?
[16:05:32] <xemet> with the sim-encoder
[16:05:40] <xemet> and the encoder modules
[16:05:46] <cradek> ah interesting
[16:06:09] <xemet> if I change the scale value from 0 to 0.1 the system works
[16:06:31] <xemet> yes it is interesting because a usb joypad is very inexpensive
[16:06:52] <cradek> do you have a signal hooked to that pin, or are you changing it with setp?
[16:06:57] <xemet> I've puchased mine 5$...so it is good to experiment and learn something about hal
[16:07:17] <xemet> I've setted it with setp in the hal file
[16:07:21] <xemet> for example:
[16:07:29] <xemet> setp axis.0.jog-scale 0.1
[16:08:40] <xemet> but hwen EMC2 starts...it resets the value to 0
[16:08:50] <xemet> and jogging doesn't work...
[16:09:24] <SWPadnos> hmmm. how do you set axis.N.jog-scale before EMC2 has started?
[16:09:50] <SWPadnos> it sounds like you're saying that you can set the parameter, but then when you start EMC, it gets reset
[16:10:00] <xemet> exactly
[16:10:01] <SWPadnos> but those parameters should only exist after EMC has started
[16:10:18] <cradek> those come from the motion controller (loadrt emcmot)
[16:10:30] <cradek> I tried estop, switching modes, etc, but mine stays at 0.1
[16:10:41] <xemet> I set it in the .hal file that is used when I start EMC2
[16:10:45] <cradek> can you pastebin your hal file? maybe we're missing something
[16:11:18] <xemet> hold on few seconds, I've to tranfer it from my USB pen
[16:12:52] <xemet> well I've the file here
[16:12:59] <cradek> I put that in my startup hal file, and it stays set for me
[16:13:00] <xemet> where can I paste it?
[16:13:04] <SWPadnos> http://pastebin.ca/
[16:13:24] <cradek> brb
[16:13:42] <xemet> never used it...can you explain what have I to do?
[16:14:10] <xemet> just copy the file and paste in the website where it says "paste below"?
[16:14:19] <SWPadnos> copy the text and paste it into the text entry area, then optionally write a description and set an expiration time
[16:14:42] <SWPadnos> once you hit "submit", you'll get a URL you can paste here, and your browser will be redirected to that URL in a few seconds
[16:15:09] <xemet> http://www.pastebin.ca/352092
[16:15:20] <xemet> interesting! useful service!
[16:15:33] <SWPadnos> heh - yep. there's one for images as well
[16:16:15] <xemet> sorry, but I can't see the part of the file where I set the scale...
[16:16:23] <apedro> i have appear this error: emc/iotask/ioControl.cc 846: can't load tool table.
[16:16:28] <apedro> i can solv this problem ?
[16:16:48] <xemet> hold on I check if I took the wrong file...
[16:17:17] <SWPadnos> xemet, I was just going to ask how this file is loaded - is it done with a HALFILE line in the ini?
[16:20:53] <xemet> yes
[16:21:01] <cradek> I see you are making new threads - you should use the threads that the motion controller is already running
[16:21:37] <xemet> http://www.pastebin.ca/352099
[16:21:45] <cradek> the fast one is "base-thread" and the slow one is "servo-thread"
[16:21:46] <xemet> here is the right file
[16:21:53] <xemet> ah ok!
[16:22:45] <cradek> cool, you have a joystick with three axes?
[16:23:01] <xemet> actually four...it is one of those joypad
[16:23:11] <xemet> with two little joystick in the middle
[16:23:15] <cradek> neat
[16:23:32] <xemet> and TEN buttons!
[16:23:35] <cradek> haha
[16:23:50] <cradek> does hal_joystick read the buttons?
[16:23:56] <xemet> all Tens!
[16:24:04] <cradek> wow
[16:24:11] <xemet> I control almost everything!
[16:24:37] <xemet> about the threads...
[16:25:03] <xemet> but, if I create new threads like I have done what is the problem?
[16:25:27] <xemet> I ask because after changing the scale value, the system works
[16:25:30] <cradek> no particular problem, it's just more threads than you need
[16:25:38] <xemet> ah ok
[16:25:42] <cradek> yeah I still don't see what might cause that value to be lost
[16:26:16] <xemet> uhm...don't ask to me...I started to use hal today for the first time in my life!
[16:26:31] <cradek> it looks like you have an excellent grasp of it already
[16:26:53] <xemet> well, I've read the manual...
[16:26:55] <cradek> using the encoder modules to get counts from an analog input is creative
[16:27:31] <xemet> I would like to build a jogwheel using an optical encoder
[16:27:42] <cradek> I have one of those - it really works great
[16:27:58] <xemet> so I looked at the manual pages where encoders modules was described
[16:28:24] <xemet> and when I've seen that there was an sncoder module and a sim-encoder...
[16:28:49] <cradek> try using a "constant" block to supply 0.1 to a signal, and hook that signal to those scale pins
[16:29:10] <SWPadnos> is it called "constant" or "supply"?
[16:29:12] <cradek> I bet that will fix it, but I don't know why you are having this problem
[16:29:17] <cradek> 32780 float OUT 0 constant.0.out
[16:29:29] <SWPadnos> ok - I think it was "supply" as part of blocks
[16:29:54] <xemet> how I load the constant module, just I type "loadrt constant"?
[16:29:58] <cradek> yes
[16:30:15] <cradek> it has a param "value" and a pin "out" that it sets to that value
[16:30:22] <xemet> yes ok
[16:30:25] <xemet> now I will try
[16:30:58] <cradek> you'll have to add it to a thread with floating point (like servo-thread)
[16:31:38] <xemet> I would like to let you know that in the hal_joystick documentation is written that joystick should be in /dev/js0
[16:32:05] <xemet> while I've discovered that min is in /dev/input/js0
[16:32:25] <cradek> -d device use device as the joystick device (default is /dev/js0).
[16:32:40] <cradek> it must have been /dev/js0 on jmkasunich's machine, hmm
[16:32:54] <SWPadnos> I think he wrote it before he had an Ubuntu install
[16:33:18] <SWPadnos> maybe it should change to match Ubuntu by default
[16:33:20] <xemet> I don't know...at the beginning I was throwing my joypad in the trash...
[16:33:35] <xemet> because I thought it was broken...
[16:33:40] <xemet> for 5$...
[16:34:07] <cradek> xemet: did you have to do anything special in linux to get the joystick driver to work? or did you just plug it into usb and that's all?
[16:34:20] <xemet> I just plugged the usb joypad...
[16:34:40] <cradek> yeah, I think we should change the default then
[16:35:23] <xemet> the device manager see it as generic joystick
[16:36:08] <SWPadnos> that's why it works - the HAL joystick driver uses the device file provided by the system joystick driver
[16:36:29] <SWPadnos> it expects to get "events", it doesn't communicate directly with the hardware
[16:37:33] <cradek> xemet: are you using ubuntu dapper 6.06?
[16:37:59] <xemet> yes
[16:38:08] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/hal_joystick.1: xemet reports /dev/input/js0 is the default on ubuntu 6.06
[16:38:09] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/devices/hal_joystick.c: xemet reports /dev/input/js0 is the default on ubuntu 6.06
[16:38:21] <xemet> me stupid
[16:38:39] <xemet> now it works...
[16:38:40] <xemet> sorry
[16:38:44] <cradek> ?
[16:38:46] <tomp> ?
[16:38:51] <SWPadnos> ?
[16:38:53] <cradek> what was wrong?
[16:39:06] <xemet> I was editing a the hal file in another directory...
[16:39:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:39:19] <cradek> haha
[16:39:24] <cradek> none of us have ever done that
[16:39:29] <xemet> forgetting that I had to copy it in the emc2/configs
[16:39:41] <SWPadnos> nope. I never have Kate open with 27 files
[16:39:48] <SWPadnos> 6 of which have the same name ... :)
[16:39:55] <cradek> I never forget to compile my changes either
[16:40:04] <tomp> xemet: nice work!
[16:40:13] <xemet> well it works very well now!
[16:40:26] <xemet> maybe I've to adjust scale value for encoders module
[16:40:32] <jepler> I only have 24 terminals open at the moment, but that's because I close most of them before I go home on friday and I haven't opened many yet
[16:40:44] <xemet> but it works...
[16:40:48] <cradek> yay
[16:40:55] <xemet> 24 terminals!!
[16:40:59] <tomp> i got a joystick i bought years ago, an xbox, gotta dig it out :)
[16:41:25] <SWPadnos> maybe I'll fiddle with my force feedback joystick sometime :)
[16:41:34] <xemet> I've only two computers in my room and I get mad going from one to another
[16:41:44] <tomp> and how to hack xbox to usb, there's web sites for it ( has headset too :)
[16:41:47] <SWPadnos> make a crossover patch cable
[16:41:48] <xemet> ah! mine 5$ joypad had forse feedback
[16:42:10] <SWPadnos> a joypad with force feedback? never heard of such a beast
[16:42:13] <tomp> 'Z'
[16:42:27] <xemet> it vibrates
[16:42:39] <tomp> "zzzzzz"
[16:42:54] <xemet> but i don't know how to control it...I think there is no way in hal_joystick...
[16:43:06] <SWPadnos> ah. a little different from the Logitech Wingman :)
[16:43:09] <cradek> xemet: I think it would be cool if you would follow up to the list and say what you've done
[16:43:11] <xemet> i could get it vibrate when I reach the area limit!
[16:43:28] <cradek> heh
[16:43:32] <xemet> of course I will do it,
[16:43:46] <xemet> now that it works I will report all I've done in the mailing-list
[16:43:54] <tomp> or the wiki?
[16:44:22] <cradek> maybe both (a summary on the list, hal code on the wiki)
[16:44:25] <xemet> well...if someone tells me how to enter informations in the wiki...
[16:44:42] <xemet> never done it before
[16:44:58] <xemet> ah! I've to ask you a thing
[16:45:11] <cradek> xemet: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[16:45:15] <cradek> this is instructions for creating pages
[16:45:47] <xemet> ok, I've bookmarked it
[16:45:49] <xemet> I will read
[16:46:30] <rafa> friend
[16:46:43] <rafa> y have sucess witt slack!
[16:47:05] <rafa> i edit /etc/init.d/realtime
[16:47:16] <rafa> and ok
[16:47:53] <xemet> look at this: http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/3a1d.php
[16:48:25] <xemet> it is a low cost (55$) 3d navigator device
[16:48:37] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/hal_joystick.1: backport: xemet reports /dev/input/js0 is the default on ubuntu 6.06
[16:48:39] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/devices/hal_joystick.c: backport: xemet reports /dev/input/js0 is the default on ubuntu 6.06
[16:49:18] <xemet> any possibility of using it to move a cnc machine?
[16:49:29] <cradek> 140 Megabytes free disk space for driver and plug-in installation
[16:49:36] <cradek> (wow)
[16:50:19] <cradek> xemet: that's hard to guess unless you can find tech/programming information about it
[16:51:21] <xemet> I can say only that 3dconnexion are developing a driver for linux
[16:51:34] <cradek> maybe it plugs in and appears just like a joystick, or maybe it is something totally different
[16:51:46] <xemet> because the 55$ device at the moment runs only on XP and mac
[16:52:20] <rafa> friend see it:
[16:52:23] <xemet> ah...I've read about people that have patched the kernel to use this device...but this is over my capabilities
[16:52:32] <rafa> i install emc in slack!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[16:52:33] <xemet> I don't know how to patch the kernel etc...
[16:52:36] <jepler> if they release programming information or provide a library, it would be possible to write a HAL driver for it
[16:52:40] <rafa> and run!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[16:52:45] <rafa> okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!
[16:52:48] <jepler> but that's not the same as a guarantee that someone will write the driver
[16:53:04] <xemet> of course...
[16:53:07] <rafa> i instaled emc in slack nad run ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[16:53:18] <SWPadnos> excellent
[16:53:34] <jepler> '"...the hours have just been flying by while I rediscover Google Earth with a level of control that is completely addictive. I need to remind myself to eat." - Stefan Geens, editor Ogle Earth Blog'
[16:53:43] <jepler> um yeah right whatever
[16:55:21] <rafa> you know about emc not runs in slack?
[16:55:43] <rafa> because in /etc/init.d/realtime
[16:55:49] <rafa> line85:
[16:56:22] <rafa> line is /sbin/fuser
[16:56:50] <rafa> owerwrite this for /usr/bin/fuser
[16:57:15] <SWPadnos> interesting
[16:57:25] <rafa> i made package of kernel patch
[16:57:45] <rafa> and make one tutorial about install in slack
[16:57:53] <rafa> is possible?
[16:58:03] <SWPadnos> can you put it on the wiki?
[16:58:10] <rafa> is possible?
[16:59:05] <xemet> well...people I'm here to learn, what is slack (i think it is a linux distribution...) and why it is better than ubuntu?
[16:59:53] <jepler> xemet: it's just a different linux distribution. Usually the reason to prefer one distribution over another is personal
[17:00:19] <xemet> ok thank
[17:00:42] <jepler> xemet: if you want to use emc2, but don't feel you are able to patch a kernel, then Ubuntu is a good choice because we provide a realtime kernel that works on many systems.
[17:01:01] <xemet> yes...it is my case... :)
[17:01:15] <jepler> new HAL component candidate: deadzone. http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/deadzone.png http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/deadzone2.png
[17:01:19] <jepler> input on the bottom, output on the top
[17:01:24] <rafa> slack is good because is light
[17:01:48] <rafa> and turns in 486, mmx
[17:01:57] <xemet> wow!
[17:02:03] <jepler> the center and size of the deadzone is configurable
[17:02:12] <rafa> no in 386 because rati no in 386
[17:02:24] <rafa> no in 386 because rtai no on in 386
[17:02:50] <rafa> :)
[17:02:54] <jepler> talk about joysticks reminded me of this, because typically an analog stick does not stay exactly at a center position, and if you're using it to control an axis you will get spurious movement if you do not implement a deadzone
[17:03:09] <rafa> thanks
[17:03:21] <xemet> I've thought that before trying
[17:03:22] <xemet> but
[17:03:35] <rafa> you know florianopolis?
[17:03:42] <xemet> automagically, at the center, the value reported by the hal axis pin is always 0
[17:03:57] <jepler> maybe today's analog sticks are better than the ones I'm familiar with
[17:04:25] <jepler> I bet my newest one is at least 7 years old
[17:04:35] <xemet> or maybe the driver report round the value to 0 at the center
[17:04:41] <xemet> even if it is not precisely 0
[17:05:00] <xemet> what is florianopolis?
[17:05:36] <jepler> a city in south america? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian%C3%B3polis
[17:05:40] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: changes to remember
[17:05:41] <skunkworks> That is cool.. emc2 is so powerful.
[17:05:42] <rafa> ok
[17:05:49] <rafa> i am is hear
[17:06:04] <rafa> of florianopolis
[17:07:32] <xemet> I've a project...but at the moment is still at the beginning...I would like to ask you something
[17:07:56] <xemet> I would like to machine complex curves or surfaces using EMC2
[17:08:20] <xemet> like NURBS or Spline, bezer etc.
[17:08:26] <xemet> the problem is
[17:09:11] <xemet> I've tried to interpolate a NURBS using the G0
[17:09:41] <xemet> so the nurbs is interpolated using small segments
[17:10:18] <cradek> xemet: if you have lots of small segments, be sure to use G64 P- to set a path following tolerance
[17:11:01] <cradek> also be sure your axis accels are set as high as possible so the machine doesn't have to slow down to make every corner
[17:11:39] <xemet> you've centered the problem!
[17:12:11] <cradek> how long are the segments?
[17:12:56] <xemet> well...I don't know...they are variable
[17:13:18] <cradek> ok
[17:13:22] <xemet> I would like to know if there was a way to command the movements without using G-code...
[17:13:44] <xemet> I know it could result in a very complex problem
[17:14:24] <xemet> At the moment the thing is very simple. I've programmed a small graphic interface in python
[17:14:31] <cradek> not really, there is (gcode) but it will work exactly the same as using all G1 commands in a gcode file
[17:14:42] <cradek> err there is (usrmot)
[17:14:49] <xemet> that draw curves,
[17:15:09] <xemet> now that program simply calcs the points
[17:15:22] <xemet> and at the end it send at the output the G-Code
[17:15:38] <xemet> using G01 to link the points with segments
[17:15:48] <xemet> the only problem is that the movement is not smooth
[17:16:06] <jepler> normally in emc, the realtime 'motion' module sends position commands to another component such as stepgen to control the position of the motors.
[17:16:39] <xemet> ok, let me understand the chain
[17:16:56] <xemet> one instruction is read in the program in the G-code form
[17:16:57] <jepler> you could create your own HAL component that produces position commands, and basically use only the motor control portions of emc
[17:17:22] <xemet> the interpreter translate the G-code in?
[17:17:53] <jepler> but this would require a substantial amount of programming -- you would have to do the work of generating a position every 1ms, and ensuring that the successive positions do not have greater acceleration or velocity than your machine can handle
[17:18:01] <jepler> it would also mean that the existing GUIs would not be very useful to you
[17:18:17] <xemet> uhm...
[17:18:35] <xemet> well, I imagine...the problem is very complex
[17:20:04] <tomp> xemet: you said " I've tried to interpolate a NURBS using the G0" , did you mean G00 or Gxx?
[17:20:05] <xemet> At the moment I've not the programming skills needed to do a thing like that...
[17:20:11] <xemet> sorry...
[17:20:14] <xemet> G01
[17:20:17] <tomp> k
[17:21:07] <xemet> the problem is that when I've a lot of G01 that interpolate the curve, the max feedrate decreases
[17:21:29] <cradek> xemet: I think I interrupted you before - you never said exactly what the problem is (when using G1) that you want to solve
[17:21:43] <xemet> I think because there are a lot of accelerations and decelerations
[17:21:46] <jepler> in the emc trajectory planner, each individual segment should be long enough for the machine to go from dead stop, to the requested speed, to dead stop, within the length of the segment.
[17:22:21] <jepler> this is because emc plans each segment so that it can come to a stop exactly at the end of the segment
[17:22:26] <cradek> yes, otherwise it will go slower than requested
[17:22:34] <xemet> Well I explain the problem:
[17:22:37] <xemet> for example
[17:22:58] <xemet> if I interpolate a circle using G01 and a lot of segments
[17:22:58] <jepler> you can reduce this length by increasing the permitted acceleration
[17:23:40] <xemet> the result is probably ok, but the max feedrate decresases and the movement is not smooth
[17:24:05] <xemet> if I use the G02, the result is ok and the feedrate is ok, and the movemente is smooth
[17:24:11] <xemet> now, what I would need...
[17:24:44] <xemet> I would need a new G-code where I specifies the curve parameters (for example control points)
[17:25:04] <xemet> just like I specify the center and radius for arc interpolation
[17:25:15] <jepler> we would accept such a feature if it was contributed, but right now nobody's working on it
[17:25:26] <xemet> I know
[17:25:30] <cradek> that would be great
[17:25:43] <xemet> but...at the moment
[17:26:04] <xemet> I don't know what EMC2 does when it encounter a G02 code
[17:26:20] <xemet> in order to get the smooth movement
[17:26:45] <cradek> it moves in a circular/helical path - it does not split it up into straight moves
[17:26:50] <xemet> well...
[17:26:52] <xemet> but
[17:27:11] <xemet> in my mind, there smallest movement is always a line...
[17:27:19] <xemet> because if I've stepper motors
[17:27:38] <xemet> even if I'm going through an arc
[17:27:49] <cradek> at each servo cycle it sets the new requested position along the circle as permitted by machine constraints and requested feed rate
[17:27:49] <xemet> I will do it step by step
[17:27:53] <Bo^Dick> i should start worrying about how i should get a cnc table somehow
[17:28:05] <jepler> For both circles and lines there are functions 'f' which give the location of the point which is a distance d into the curve: x,y,z = f(d)
[17:28:34] <xemet> ok
[17:29:13] <rafa> hey friends!
[17:29:24] <jepler> so each 1ms, emc calculates how far into the current segment it is, and then gets the coordinate on the curve for that distance
[17:29:26] <rafa> how install axis interface?
[17:29:48] <Bo^Dick> wonder if i should try to build it or buy it all
[17:30:03] <Bo^Dick> (i've heard such "precision" part are pretty overpriced)
[17:30:08] <jepler> there is not a simple calculation to give the length of a spline, as there is for a line or a circular arc
[17:30:20] <jepler> that is one of the major barriers to adding spline interpolation to emc
[17:30:20] <rafa> i compiled emc, but axis no
[17:30:21] <xemet> yes
[17:30:29] <xemet> I understand the problem
[17:30:31] <rafa> how install axis interface?
[17:30:46] <rafa> how compilel axis interface?
[17:30:47] <cradek> also the velocity and acceleration along the spline is hard to calculate/cap
[17:31:14] <xemet> so the only way I can explore is the one I'm just trying...using an external interface to generate curve points, and send G0 commands to axis
[17:31:20] <cradek> (it's not constant like for arc)
[17:31:27] <tomp> because the tangent varies ( direction )?
[17:31:34] <jepler> right -- at another step you need to find the acceleration "used up" by following the curve itself, because that lowers the available acceleration for starting and stopping
[17:32:24] <xemet> well...quite impossible for my poor mind I think :)!
[17:33:21] <xemet> I've read somewhere in interet in an article there was one of the developers of the original EMC that add a G-code for spline...
[17:33:38] <xemet> So I thinked it was possible to do a thing like that
[17:33:55] <cradek> it's definitely possible
[17:33:58] <xemet> sorry...phone...
[17:34:01] <tomp> that code was a stub, not possible, desired
[17:34:11] <tomp> (but not impossible)
[17:36:32] <apedro> howto change the polarity of xdir pin ? i can invert this signal !
[17:36:56] <cradek> apedro: to reverse the direction of an axis, make INPUT_SCALE negative in your ini
[17:37:43] <xemet> here
[17:38:16] <xemet> yes, nothing is impossible...but I recognize my limits! :)
[17:38:34] <xemet> it was not impossible to develop EMC2...
[17:38:47] <Bo^Dick> wish i had the gear to mess around with software
[17:39:01] <apedro> cradek thanks , it is work fine !
[17:39:14] <cradek> welcome
[17:39:36] <tomp> xemet: if i understand, it actually works right now, just slower than you'd like, not as smooth as you like
[17:39:46] <xemet> exactly!
[17:39:50] <tomp> k
[17:39:59] <tomp> (lower you expectations :)
[17:40:14] <cradek> no, try our suggestions for improving it
[17:40:19] <xemet> but at the moment it could be ok
[17:40:26] <xemet> ao
[17:40:28] <xemet> so
[17:40:40] <cradek> raise acceleration if you can, and use tolerance mode
[17:40:42] <xemet> I've to increase che max acc value?
[17:40:46] <xemet> ok
[17:40:53] <xemet> I will try of course
[17:41:17] <xemet> now I would also try to add some functionality to the joypad...
[17:41:25] <xemet> just to experiment with HAL
[17:41:38] <rafa> how compile axis interface?
[17:41:47] <rafa> please
[17:41:54] <slundell> Does anyone have a clever idea on how to solve homing in an XYYZ (4 motors and drivers, 3 axes)?
[17:42:00] <xemet> for example, I could use two or three buttons to change the jog-scale value
[17:42:03] <rafa> how compile axis interface?
[17:42:09] <rafa> please
[17:42:23] <rafa> :)
[17:42:58] <xemet> rafa, sorry I cannot help you...
[17:43:09] <xemet> I don't know how to do that
[17:43:13] <rafa> ok
[17:43:38] <rafa> somebody for love of good can help-me :)
[17:43:58] <rafa> i see photos of carnival of brazil
[17:44:03] <rafa> and is hoot!!!!!!!!
[17:44:23] <SWPadnos> axis will compile when you compile emc2, if you have all the requrements (python and friends)
[17:44:30] <tomp> how did you build emc2 w/o axis? "On August 8, 2006, AXIS became a part of emc2. There is no need for a separate CVS checkout. " http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[17:45:04] <rafa> i download emc for sourceforge
[17:45:10] <jepler> slundell: there is some discussion of gantry homing on this page: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1075625&group_id=6744&atid=356744
[17:45:12] <rafa> and in sources no axis
[17:45:22] <tomp> you cvs or download?
[17:45:31] <rafa> download
[17:45:34] <tomp> use cvs
[17:45:46] <rafa> in 2.1 witt axis?
[17:46:01] <jepler> there wasn't much (any?) response to my proposal, so the only thing in 2.1 is the homing sequence, not gantry kinematics or the homing extensions proposed.
[17:46:11] <rafa> ?
[17:46:31] <tomp> yes, i think so
[17:47:08] <rafa> but i compiled
[17:47:23] <rafa> i have unistall 2.0.5 and install 2.1
[17:47:24] <rafa> or no?
[17:47:53] <jepler> * jepler goes to lunch
[17:47:54] <rafa> no necessary unistall 2.0.5 for install 2.1?
[17:48:07] <tomp> slowly
[17:48:24] <rafa> slowly?
[17:48:48] <tomp> 1st you can make a new emc2 without disturbing other emc's on your computer
[17:49:01] <tomp> so dont worry about old stuff
[17:49:06] <tomp> ok?
[17:49:25] <rafa> ok
[17:49:30] <rafa> +-
[17:50:04] <tomp> do you want to try this: build and use emc2.1 in a new directory?
[17:52:12] <xemet> question...
[17:52:32] <xemet> how to set a pin status with the joystick button?
[17:52:39] <xemet> I explain.
[17:52:40] <slundell> jepler: Is there any documentation on this homing sequence? I am currently copy-pasting dallurs config (i.e. connecting the same step/dir signals to multiple pins).
[17:53:10] <xemet> The button has a false state when released, and a true state when I press it
[17:53:49] <xemet> So, if I want for example use a button to command the spindle on and off
[17:57:33] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, I don't think there's a spindle toggle input anywhere, though Halui could have one
[17:57:56] <SWPadnos> you may want to look at halui - it's meant for interfacing buttons and things to EMC functions
[17:58:07] <xemet> ok, lets go the spindle
[17:58:14] <xemet> take for example flood
[17:58:33] <SWPadnos> again, I'm not sure there is a "toggle" input for that
[17:58:45] <SWPadnos> there are separate "coolant-on" and "coolant-off" inputs
[17:59:16] <xemet> I see in the manual there is a pin iocontrol.0.coolant-flood
[17:59:21] <xemet> it says:
[17:59:33] <SWPadnos> that's an output
[17:59:45] <xemet> TRUE when flood coolant is requested
[17:59:46] <xemet> ah ok
[18:00:12] <xemet> but...how are they controlled by Axis?
[18:00:13] <SWPadnos> ok - you may be able to use a flipflop to get what you want
[18:00:31] <SWPadnos> M<something> turns coolant on or off
[18:00:40] <xemet> ok, I don't know what is a flipflop... :)
[18:00:54] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:01:11] <xemet> sorry...I'm still learning everything
[18:02:01] <SWPadnos> hmm. that won't work alone
[18:02:42] <SWPadnos> you will need to use halui, so I'd take a look at what it provides
[18:03:16] <SWPadnos> you don't want to directly connect spindle or coolant to your joypad, since you'll want emc to be able to control them as well
[18:03:31] <xemet> yes...
[18:03:42] <SWPadnos> so you need some way of telling emc what to do when you use the joypad. halui is the way to do that
[18:04:03] <xemet> I would like to have some buttons in the joypad that act just like the buttons in Axis interface
[18:04:15] <SWPadnos> that's what halui is for
[18:04:24] <xemet> well! Wonderful
[18:04:30] <xemet> how to use it?
[18:04:51] <SWPadnos> you add HALUI=halui to the ini file. I don't remember which section
[18:05:56] <xemet> I'm here
[18:06:04] <SWPadnos> you add HALUI=halui to the ini file. I don't remember which section
[18:06:09] <xemet> sorry, it was disconnected
[18:06:14] <xemet> ok
[18:06:15] <SWPadnos> no problem
[18:06:20] <xemet> after I add Halui...
[18:06:36] <SWPadnos> yuo'll have about 100 more HAL pins to play with :)
[18:06:44] <xemet> !!!!
[18:06:50] <SWPadnos> maybe more
[18:06:52] <xemet> that's great!
[18:07:22] <xemet> I add HALUI=halui in the HAL section?
[18:07:48] <SWPadnos> it
[18:08:03] <SWPadnos> it's either in HAL or DISPLAY - I'm not sure which
[18:08:41] <SWPadnos> HAL
[18:09:15] <xemet> ok found it in the wiki!
[18:09:32] <SWPadnos> grat
[18:09:37] <SWPadnos> great
[18:10:07] <xemet> so I just add it in the .ini
[18:10:35] <xemet> And i can use the new pins in the .hal joypad file
[18:10:37] <SWPadnos> I bet there's an example in one of the configs. I don't know which one(s) though :)
[18:11:39] <xemet> well I will find it don't worry
[18:12:05] <xemet> another idea...but now I think it is more complex
[18:12:30] <xemet> If I want for example use two buttons to set the jog scale...
[18:12:59] <xemet> think, for example: I press the button A and the scale gets set to 0.1
[18:13:11] <xemet> press the button B and the scale is set to 0.01
[18:13:45] <tomp> dbl click it to chg scale by 10 , modifier dbl click it to chg by 1/10
[18:14:08] <SWPadnos> I don't know what provisions halui has for that, but that's pretty easy to do with some HAL components
[18:14:15] <SWPadnos> tomp, this is a joystick, not a mouse
[18:14:23] <tomp> you can dbl clk any btn
[18:14:26] <SWPadnos> I don't think there is a double-click event
[18:14:34] <tomp> k
[18:14:38] <xemet> and
[18:14:45] <xemet> what modules could I use for that?
[18:14:49] <xemet> do you have an idea?
[18:14:56] <xemet> so I will study them later...
[18:15:02] <SWPadnos> flipflop + not + mux
[18:15:08] <SWPadnos> there may be an easier way though :)
[18:15:50] <xemet> basically I would need a module that receive a True status and set a parameter to a value
[18:16:41] <SWPadnos> what you'd probably do is use a selector (mux) that has the two scales set as parameters, then set up a flipflop and a not as a toggle, and run the output to halui
[18:16:57] <SWPadnos> but this conversation tells me that a simpler way should be implemented :)
[18:17:50] <xemet> I will try...I don't know what is the flipflop and the mux...bu I will search for them
[18:19:01] <xemet> are there documentations about these modules?
[18:19:10] <SWPadnos> if you try "loadrt flipflop" and / or "loadrt mux2", you'll see the pins they provide
[18:19:14] <SWPadnos> there should be
[18:19:24] <SWPadnos> try man flipflop
[18:21:34] <xemet> found but... there are only the pins
[18:21:59] <tomp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics) scroll down to d flops
[18:23:58] <tomp> hmm, not classic dflop with set & reset is it?, look more at jk flop
[18:24:24] <xemet> ok...maybe I understand something
[18:24:42] <SWPadnos> it's a S/R flipflop, actually
[18:24:46] <SWPadnos> but no /Q output
[18:24:55] <xemet> fo example
[18:25:07] <xemet> I have data in true
[18:25:22] <xemet> no...
[18:25:38] <xemet> I do not really understand unitl I will try it...
[18:25:43] <SWPadnos> you need to look over the halui documentation - it will be more complex doing this in HAL
[18:25:51] <anonimasu> hmm
[18:26:16] <SWPadnos> you should also know that there are certain ways that emc works that may seem strange
[18:26:57] <SWPadnos> for example, there is no provision for having a switch that directly controls coolant (or spindle ...)
[18:27:06] <xemet> yes I see
[18:27:14] <SWPadnos> you can only ask that coolant be turned on or off, but not set the state directly
[18:27:50] <SWPadnos> in general, toggle switches (pressing the same button to turn something on or off, depending on its state) are not a good idea
[18:28:27] <SWPadnos> two reasons: first is noise - what happens if you get several toggles when you press the button, due to noise
[18:28:29] <xemet> yes infact I see in halui there is always a On pin and a Off pin
[18:28:56] <SWPadnos> second: what if something else turns the spindle off just as you're about to do that? you toggle it back on, which is unexpected
[18:29:01] <SWPadnos> yep - I was noticing that as well
[18:29:11] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: that's kind of odd..
[18:29:12] <SWPadnos> so you can just have a spindle on and separate spindle off button
[18:29:22] <SWPadnos> anonimasu, why?
[18:29:28] <xemet> ok that's not a problem...
[18:29:33] <anonimasu> commercial controls do have a coolant button.. that always works..
[18:29:41] <xemet> I've ten buttons in the joypad and I will try o use all of them!
[18:29:44] <anonimasu> even if you are running a part on full auto..
[18:30:32] <SWPadnos> anonimasu, you can have a coolant button, but there should be separate "on" and "off" buttons
[18:31:03] <SWPadnos> a single momentary switch can cause problems due to noise (among other things)
[18:31:14] <anonimasu> yeah, but you need debounced switches..
[18:31:20] <SWPadnos> sure
[18:31:26] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: well, I can just imagine the panel for a machine doing that..
[18:31:27] <tomp> that btn may be hdwr, and not in software ( it may report what it did, but control is hardware, hardwire ) ( on off can be done with 1 puspush btn )
[18:31:37] <anonimasu> for spindle I can understand it.
[18:31:48] <SWPadnos> yeah - coolant is less dangerous :)
[18:32:03] <anonimasu> the one at work forces you to select a direction for the spindle..
[18:32:07] <anonimasu> then push the on button..
[18:32:12] <SWPadnos> a single button that toggles is fine in many cases, but you have to know that you may get unexpected results sometimes
[18:32:12] <anonimasu> otherwise the spindle wont start
[18:32:32] <SWPadnos> "on the count of 3, turn your key to the right" :)
[18:33:00] <anonimasu> it's hard to turn on the spindle unintentionally as it should be :)
[18:34:18] <xemet> so in the flip flop...there are only five pins, anyone could explain me what they do?
[18:34:30] <xemet> data input
[18:34:41] <xemet> clock, rising edge writes data to out
[18:35:10] <xemet> set, when true, force out true
[18:35:26] <xemet> reset when true, force out false; overrides set
[18:35:35] <xemet> output
[18:36:02] <SWPadnos> any time you write a 1 to "reset", the output will be 0. if reset is not 1 and set is 1, then the output will be 1. if both set and reset are 0, then the output will be set to whatever "data" is whenever clock changes from 0 to 1
[18:36:30] <tomp> on the wikipedia page, a nice timing diagram and state diagram
[18:36:55] <SWPadnos> it's pretty easy to follow how it works from the source: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/components/flipflop.comp?rev=1.2
[18:37:21] <xemet> but how can this help me to select a scale value using a button?
[18:37:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:38:12] <SWPadnos> mux2 has two float inputs and one output. there's also a bit input that decides which of the two inputs to output
[18:38:32] <xemet> ok
[18:38:54] <SWPadnos> and you need a not on the output of the flipflop, which you run back into the data input. that way, whenever you clock the flipflop, it changes state
[18:39:04] <SWPadnos> the output also goes to the mux2
[18:39:11] <SWPadnos> and selects one of the scales
[18:39:23] <xemet> I begin to understand... :)
[18:39:34] <xemet> but I think I've to try it...
[18:39:46] <xemet> basically the problem is that the button has not a fixed state
[18:39:49] <SWPadnos> play - you can't hurt anything unless you have a machine attached ;)
[18:40:30] <xemet> I press it and it became true, it sets the scale, now I release it, but the scale must remain the one selected
[18:41:08] <SWPadnos> flipflop should only respond to the press, not the release (unless there's noise)
[18:41:33] <xemet> AH! hese was the missing point :)
[18:41:42] <tomp> changes on rising edge, ignore level, ignores falling edge
[18:42:24] <xemet> many thanks, I think now is more clear in my mind
[18:42:33] <SWPadnos> great. have fun :)
[18:42:41] <xemet> Thank!
[18:42:56] <xemet> now I go
[18:43:02] <xemet> thank you all people!
[18:43:15] <xemet> your advices are always precious
[18:43:17] <tomp> the sr fllipflop http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SR_%28Clocked%29_Flip-flop_Diagram.svg
[18:44:17] <xemet> I will let you know my results with this 5$ joypad!
[18:44:48] <SWPadnos> great
[18:45:01] <xemet> see you, thanks
[18:45:10] <xemet> :)
[18:47:22] <tomp> asian flipflop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flipflops.jpg
[19:08:11] <SWPadnos> you know - very high res monitors are very cool: http://www.cncgear.com/images/bigscreenshot.png
[19:09:04] <SWPadnos> the "large text" is actually normal size (about 12 point) on the high-res monitor
[19:14:06] <jepler> * jepler is surprised to see that most of the hits for this search term are related to basketball: arc three-point convert
[19:14:28] <tomp> 3pt :)
[19:15:18] <erDiZz> yeah, if those "large" are actually "normal", then what are those "normal" actually?
[19:18:47] <CIA-19> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/deadzone.comp: new component: deadzone
[19:19:18] <CIA-19> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/deadzone.comp: GPL license
[19:19:43] <CIA-19> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/tristate_float.comp: new component: trisatte_float
[19:21:17] <CIA-19> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/tristate_float.comp: oops, fix it to compile
[19:26:39] <CIA-19> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/debian/changelog: new items
[19:29:14] <apedro> the gcode coordenates is expressed on mm or inch ?
[19:29:28] <apedro> X1.0 is 1 mm or 1 inch ?
[19:29:28] <jepler> apedro: specify G21 to use mm, or G20 to use inch
[19:30:22] <apedro> jepler ok i have understand, thanks !
[20:09:41] <tomp> if i have run-in-place, and want to experiment with hal, then do i use scripts/halrun -I ? (i've always used individual bin/halcmd blah commands for every step, this halrun sounds convenient)
[20:10:29] <SWPadnos> yes, halrun works with run-in-place
[20:11:45] <tomp> thanks, it's nice , less opportunities for me to spell wrong
[20:12:27] <tomp> its got tab completion too
[20:12:53] <SWPadnos> yeah - halcmd is quite nice these days, with completion and stuff
[20:13:03] <SWPadnos> up-arrow as well, I believe
[20:13:14] <tomp> history cool
[20:19:19] <tomp> thanks
[20:19:33] <SWPadnos> it's not my fault. japler did it :)
[20:19:40] <SWPadnos> jepler, that is
[20:21:51] <skunkworks> the secondary posision offer on the house was signed... so far so good. :)
[20:22:33] <tomp> tomp crosses fingers, good luck
[20:29:48] <tomp> re halcmd, i can put cmds into a file like myfile.ini, the exec halrun -I -f myfile.ini and all the btns and lights respond immediately... and i have interactive halcmd too, next how to get a gui on top of that (fun! sanook di! )
[20:30:49] <SWPadnos> actually, you'd put commands into a .hal file (which is run by halrun). the ini file is there in case you want to put constructs like pid.0.PGain=[AXIS_0]P
[20:31:33] <SWPadnos> but comands in the [HAL] section of the ini file won't get executed ...
[20:33:22] <tomp> ok, so ren myfile.ini to myfile.hal then issue halrun -I -f myfile.hal ( i had no sections in the 'ini' file, just a text file http://pastebin.ca/352431 )
[20:33:57] <tomp> like a script/ bat file
[20:34:12] <SWPadnos> well, you may want both a .hal file and an ini file, but in this case, you just use -f (I guess - I'm not looking at halrun)
[20:35:42] <tomp> i think i messed up by saying it was an ini, its just a file, i need to read on what ini and hal are intended for
[20:35:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:36:17] <SWPadnos> the ini flag is only needed by halcmd so it can look up values from the ini file
[20:36:31] <SWPadnos> if you aren't using an ini, then don't worry about it
[21:09:34] <robin_sz> sigh .. eBay .. why do I always get carried away ...
[21:11:40] <jepler> robin_sz: uh oh
[21:12:06] <robin_sz> I start off with a sensible idea about what I want to pay and then ...
[21:12:24] <anonimasu> robin_sz: did you get thoose servos?
[21:12:30] <anonimasu> logger_emc: bookmark
[21:12:30] <anonimasu> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-02-12.txt
[21:12:39] <robin_sz> yeah .... but had to pay loads and loads ...
[21:12:55] <robin_sz> still, they do come with matching gearboxes
[21:13:01] <anonimasu> how much is loads?
[21:13:07] <robin_sz> I suppose that makes it not *too* bad ...
[21:13:15] <robin_sz> oh, lots.
[21:13:34] <anonimasu> that's not a figure..
[21:13:55] <robin_sz> sigh ,... well, it was close to 50 eur
[21:14:05] <anonimasu> bah..
[21:14:15] <anonimasu> 38.50£
[21:14:16] <eholmgren> no more beer for this month
[21:14:24] <eholmgren> tsk tsk
[21:14:25] <anonimasu> heh
[21:14:30] <anonimasu> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320078627767
[21:14:43] <anonimasu> robin_sz: well, that's almost free
[21:14:46] <robin_sz> :0
[21:14:49] <robin_sz> )
[21:15:05] <robin_sz> I expect the new price is a *bit* more than that
[21:16:11] <eholmgren> make sure they wipe the uk off of them before they're put in the mail
[21:17:16] <robin_sz> I'll collect, its like 30km from here
[21:18:02] <anonimasu> neat
[21:22:27] <jepler> "wipe the UK off of them"?
[21:23:05] <Anastasia> Anastasia is now known as K`zan
[21:23:36] <robin_sz> jepler, no, i didnt undrstand that either ...
[21:27:34] <jepler> haha "
[21:27:34] <jepler> haha "the early enc28j60 parts needed the spi interface to be run at 8meg at least, because
[21:27:37] <jepler> the designers had one hand inside their pants when they designed them and managed to score
[21:27:42] <jepler> a 14-chapter errata."
[21:27:48] <jepler> wow, blogger, tell us what you really think of this part
[22:08:46] <maddash> i wrote a module that approximates **2D** nurbs with arcs...anyone interested?
[22:09:01] <maddash> for emc, i mean
[22:45:46] <crepincdotcom> aloha all
[22:51:34] <tomp> linear slide pot input device, very designer high tech i saw something like this on a new logitech keyboard, looked like Bang&Olefsun designed it http://www.qprox.com/products/qslide_qt411.php
[22:53:34] <robin_sz> wow ... now ... I'm impressed. I've seen some really evil bastard marketing schemes, but the Solidworks one is so evil it has horns ....
[22:53:45] <tomp> maddash: sorry i missed that, of course we're interested, sometimes we are away. i think we need a way to handle these news flashes that occur while gone.
[22:54:57] <robin_sz> their big competitor is Autocad, so they have made a drawign viewer, a plugin that allows your current old version of autocad to load even the very latest version of autocad files (no need to upgrade autocad anymore) and a autocad lookalike CAD package
[22:55:00] <robin_sz> and then ..
[22:55:03] <robin_sz> they give them away for free
[22:55:37] <robin_sz> talk about chopping the competition off at the knees
[22:55:43] <anonimasu> robin_sz: solidworks?
[22:55:44] <anonimasu> heh
[22:56:28] <robin_sz> I mean, the only reason you ever upgrade autocad is because people keep mailing you files in averison you cant open
[22:56:47] <robin_sz> with an "open anything" plugin, that kills their slaes model
[22:56:49] <robin_sz> sales
[22:57:12] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:57:19] <anonimasu> well it's not like autocad can compare anyway..
[22:57:23] <robin_sz> quite
[22:58:12] <robin_sz> so by giving a really good 2d package away fro free, they dont even harm their own market
[22:58:36] <robin_sz> its nto like autocad can fight back by releasing a free 3D solidworks lookalike is it?
[22:58:40] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:58:43] <anonimasu> nope
[22:58:46] <anonimasu> alibre can.
[22:58:50] <robin_sz> evil bastards ..
[22:58:53] <robin_sz> I like it :)
[22:58:56] <anonimasu> if thoose bastards just got a good snap.
[22:59:05] <robin_sz> alibre?
[22:59:05] <anonimasu> and a sane way to enter lengths on line creation
[22:59:12] <robin_sz> oh, there is ...
[22:59:21] <anonimasu> 4there is?
[22:59:22] <K`zan> I really need to figure out how to install acad13 here, forgotten how and I really do not want to have to make up 23 floppies, not sure I even have that many anymore :-).
[22:59:36] <anonimasu> if you commence a dimension after creation..
[22:59:39] <anonimasu> or ente rit numerically
[22:59:42] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:59:44] <robin_sz> or ..
[22:59:45] <anonimasu> that you need to do every time.
[22:59:49] <robin_sz> you can snap it to a point
[22:59:50] <anonimasu> open the window for it..
[23:00:29] <robin_sz> I rarley define line lenghts anyway
[23:00:47] <robin_sz> so its not a big deal for me
[23:00:47] <anonimasu> hm, how do you actually draw real things?
[23:00:56] <robin_sz> relationships?
[23:01:17] <anonimasu> well, that's a pain in the ass haing to add a dimension for all lines after you've created them..
[23:01:25] <robin_sz> thats the point
[23:01:25] <robin_sz> I dont
[23:01:48] <anonimasu> well, you cant be drawing anything that needs to match the real world..
[23:02:02] <robin_sz> no ... I think you havent understood solidworks :)
[23:02:10] <robin_sz> let me give you an example ...
[23:02:23] <K`zan> LOL
[23:02:23] <robin_sz> oh, well then I cant help
[23:02:43] <anonimasu> I'm talking about alibre.
[23:02:46] <robin_sz> right
[23:02:52] <robin_sz> never seen/tried it
[23:02:56] <anonimasu> it's a damn good solidworks competitor, that's 1/5 of the price..
[23:03:03] <anonimasu> parametric, but it's a bit more painful to work with.
[23:03:12] <anonimasu> they have a free version that just limits the parts in a assembly..
[23:03:21] <robin_sz> oh, coo.
[23:03:48] <anonimasu> but, as I said, adding dimensions in it is a bit of a pain..
[23:03:54] <robin_sz> so .. how does their dimensioning differ from SW then?
[23:04:04] <anonimasu> it dosent..
[23:04:08] <robin_sz> oh,
[23:04:19] <anonimasu> but creating lines with a specific length needs some more work.. a few clicks..
[23:04:35] <robin_sz> as I said, its not that often yo need to do that
[23:04:51] <anonimasu> you need something to relate to.
[23:05:07] <robin_sz> yeah, usually some base dimension ..
[23:05:15] <robin_sz> let me give you an example ...
[23:05:15] <anonimasu> and I dont know where you are pulling that out without something to measure aginst..(construction lines..)
[23:05:24] <anonimasu> robin_sz: you dont have to..
[23:05:31] <robin_sz> but I want to :)
[23:05:51] <robin_sz> I designed a bullet-proof door last week ...
[23:06:21] <robin_sz> there is a sketch for the wall opening size, a rectangle with two dimensiosn added
[23:06:53] <robin_sz> there is probably ... what, 10 maybe dimensions added in total to the rest of the 20 or so parts that go to make up the rest of the door
[23:07:34] <anonimasu> I know how that works, but it's not as nice as solidworks.. :D
[23:07:47] <robin_sz> that was solidowrks btw
[23:08:00] <anonimasu> yeah, I know
[23:08:04] <anonimasu> alibre does the same..
[23:08:36] <robin_sz> the customer was VERY impressed by the way I produced a set of flat-pattern drawings for the laser from the parts
[23:09:00] <robin_sz> and then just changed the base rectangle size and the whole desing chnaged in an instant to match it
[23:09:06] <skunkworks> join emc-devel
[23:09:07] <skunkworks> oops
[23:09:10] <robin_sz> they *lurv* that
[23:10:06] <robin_sz> I did notice a REALLY bad solidowrks fsck up the other day though ...
[23:10:29] <robin_sz> you have an assembly open with a part called 'foo' ...
[23:10:42] <robin_sz> and someoen asks you to look at another desing ...
[23:10:49] <robin_sz> and that has a part called foo.
[23:11:06] <robin_sz> and it seems to be able to tell the difference ...
[23:11:22] <anonimasu> I'd punch them in the face, and when they would have recovered I'd punch them again.
[23:11:26] <anonimasu> TWICE
[23:11:33] <robin_sz> but when the parts are on a network drive, it seems to get confused
[23:11:56] <robin_sz> and then you sudenly find weird bits appearing in the other model ...
[23:12:10] <robin_sz> at which point, I think what you suggested sounds a good idea :)
[23:12:38] <anonimasu> only idiots name their parts foo
[23:12:46] <robin_sz> well, not foo then
[23:12:53] <robin_sz> DoorOuterSkin
[23:13:01] <anonimasu> I usually name mind as NAME(manufacturer number)
[23:13:16] <robin_sz> coo
[23:13:18] <anonimasu> if working with real models motors/sensors and stuff...
[23:13:34] <robin_sz> I usally add partnumbers as a property
[23:13:39] <anonimasu> so I can just look at the assembly or print it when ordering stuff..
[23:13:42] <robin_sz> so it shows up in the drawing
[23:14:08] <robin_sz> file->properties->blah
[23:14:38] <robin_sz> I wonder if there is a solidworks irc channel?
[23:15:02] <anonimasu> if you find one tell me
[23:15:10] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:15:20] <robin_sz> it *would* be useful to be able to ask questions
[23:15:39] <robin_sz> I used to use the SW forums, but they are very heavily censored I found
[23:16:07] <robin_sz> even worse than #debian ;)