#emc | Logs for 2007-02-11

[00:00:13] <lerman> I think so. But it might be harder than that. Is that for the gcode we are interpreting? Does it include the .ini files?
[00:00:16] <cradek> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/interp_read.cc.diff?r1=1.10;r2=1.11
[00:00:17] <erDiZz> it's for a different purpose, not for changing the way g-code files are parsed
[00:00:32] <cradek> this is the change that broke it (using strtod)
[00:00:37] <lerman> (That might be a pain.)
[00:02:05] <cradek> http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/personnel/kramer/pubs/RS274NGC_3.web/RS274NGC_311a.html#999272
[00:02:22] <cradek> this shows that . is to be used for the decimal point in rs274ngc
[00:03:32] <erDiZz> ...so currently it doesn't conform to the docs with certain locale settings
[00:03:42] <cradek> right, it's just a bug
[00:04:16] <lerman> Whew. I don't like the 47 < c or the c < 58. S/B '/' < c ; c < ':' or better yet -- '0' <= c; c<='9'.
[00:04:33] <cradek> lerman: yeah, it was hideous - probably why jepler changed it
[00:04:36] <lerman> But that's the code with the '-'; so it is gone (I hope).
[00:04:45] <cradek> but he surely didn't think about commas
[00:06:37] <lerman> Yup. The language definition says a decimal point is a '.'. But heck, we've messed with the language a lot (well, I have), one more change shouldn't be a big deal.
[00:07:14] <lerman> If the users want the language to allow comma in the gcode where decimal point is, I'll add something to the .ini to allow that it the gcode.
[00:08:03] <lerman> Making the .ini file allow that might be harder (I haven't looked at the code to read it yet -- nor do I plan to).
[00:08:36] <lerman> Changing the gui(s) is a separate issue that is out of scope (for me).
[00:09:04] <cradek> I think allowing comma, whether or not it's optional, is unnecessary
[00:09:07] <lerman> Is that a higher or lower priority than internationalization of the error messages? :-)
[00:09:59] <cradek> they already are - but only AXIS uses them
[00:10:06] <cradek> (I just tried today)
[00:10:31] <lerman> (If god had meant for us to speak all of those funny languages he would have given them nuclear weapons). :-)
[00:10:51] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/german-error.png
[00:11:44] <cradek> hmm, looks like we are missing a few strings in de
[00:11:54] <lerman> Excellent.
[00:11:58] <cradek> I thought it was pretty complete...
[00:12:25] <lerman> As long as the framework is there, the strings will be translated.
[00:13:33] <lerman> That will take care of the canned messages. I've got to do something in the interp, though, to handle the new variable messages I've added.
[00:14:22] <lerman> (Shit. Did I say 'I'. I should have said 'someone').
[00:14:32] <lerman> But it looks like it isn't a big deal.
[00:14:57] <cradek> I assume that today the interp gives english errors and the gui translates them - but it sounds like you've made that scheme not work anymore
[00:15:13] <cradek> haha I try to remember to say "someone" too
[00:16:08] <lerman> No. Yesterday, the interp gave numeric errors with a unique number for each FIXED string. Today it has a number meaning VARIABLE string and
[00:16:51] <cradek> ah, numbers, the international language
[00:17:14] <lerman> gives a string which might have embedded values. So, today we can say 'multiple definition of o200'. Before we had to say 'multiple definition of oword' and let the user figure out which one.
[00:17:52] <lerman> (That's not a good example because the line number is available to see which line it was on).
[00:17:54] <cradek> "on line 200: redefinition of O word"
[00:18:02] <cradek> yep was just thinking that
[00:18:14] <cradek> I mentioned line numbers in my recent email
[00:18:39] <lerman> But 'undefined named parameter' would be a good example. 'undefined named parameter #<foobar>'
[00:18:54] <lerman> There could be multiple usages of named parameter on a line.
[00:19:23] <lerman> Even before named parameters, there could be numeric parameters out of range ##1 is legal.
[00:19:59] <lerman> There is no way for you to find out that #1 contained the value 12345 and that #12345 is out of range. (at least there wasn't in the past).
[00:20:25] <lerman> Today I could add a message saying that #12345 is out of range on line...
[00:21:18] <lerman> NIST was working with a very limited context... slow machines limited memory... etc. That excuses some of the limitations in the implementaiton.
[00:21:41] <cradek> so you are going to have to get the interp to do the translation of those printf format strings now right?
[00:21:56] <cradek> er, someone
[00:22:56] <lerman> Sure. I would just call the proper function to translate the format string from english to the current language. There is a utility to scan the code and find all of the format strings.
[00:23:06] <lerman> Then each of the strings has to be translated.
[00:23:14] <cradek> right
[00:23:24] <lerman> I've never written the code, but it doesn't look too bad.
[00:24:14] <lerman> The translation routines apparently take and english (source language) string as a key to look up the target and return it.
[00:24:42] <cradek> yeah I bet finding the dictionaries at runtime, installing them properly, etc, is the hard part
[00:25:31] <cradek> I don't know much (anything) about i18n
[00:25:46] <lerman> I think not. It uses the locale. There is an init call that tells where they are. And now that I know how to read a .ini file, we can just put the path to those files into the .ini
[00:26:45] <cradek> no, paths do not belong there. configure/make install need to set the paths correctly.
[00:26:58] <erDiZz> I've "ported" g_ascii_strtod from glib 2.12.4 to plain C: http://pastebin.ca/349719
[00:27:06] <cradek> the ini is for configurable options, NOT options that have one correct setting that the program should know
[00:27:18] <erDiZz> maybe too much code, feel free to throw it away :)
[00:27:30] <lerman> I was wondering if you were going to call me on that. :-)
[00:27:45] <lerman> I realized after I said that -- I am wrong.
[00:27:46] <cradek> you betcha
[00:27:49] <cradek> :-)
[00:28:05] <lerman> Probably an environment variable set by the script.
[00:28:10] <cradek> erDiZz: wow! that is a lot of code
[00:28:15] <lerman> Depending on where its installed.
[00:28:39] <cradek> lerman: yeah (without looking) I bet so. or maybe it's compiled in.
[00:28:53] <lerman> man gettext -- does the translation.
[00:29:05] <erDiZz> yeah, that's a lot... even too much to read it and check for validity
[00:29:30] <lerman> Compile in the relative path. .. That would be OK. But you still need something to give the abs. path.
[00:30:13] <cradek> locale_data = localeconv ();
[00:30:13] <cradek> decimal_point = locale_data->decimal_point;
[00:30:13] <cradek> decimal_point_len = strlen (decimal_point);
[00:30:23] <cradek> wow, decimal points can be multiple chars
[00:30:29] <cradek> that's ... amazing
[00:31:15] <erDiZz> were they one char, the'd be represented as a "char"
[00:31:42] <erDiZz> a multi-byte character maybe
[00:33:01] <cradek> gotta run - bbl
[00:33:05] <erDiZz> bye
[00:36:47] <lerman> cradek: just saw your email. Let's take a look at where the interp is giving the wrong line number. If you can make some sample programs, I'll take a look at them.
[00:37:48] <lerman> The easiest thing would be to create a subdir under nc_files called tests. Then generate test programs with errors containing comments with the proper line number.
[00:38:00] <lerman> (Easiest for me, I meant) :-)
[00:38:47] <lerman> That way I would have tests that I could repeat. I'll run them one at a time and fix things.
[00:39:33] <lerman> (I'm not sure that there is no need for traceback -- but I agree that there is a need to have error messages identify the correct line).
[00:40:20] <lerman> Another interest I had is trying to get MDI to be able to call subroutine. I think it would neat to be able to mill a surface by MDI ing.
[00:41:18] <lerman> o_surface call [1][2][3][4] (where 1,2,3,4 are lower left and upper right corners of surface)
[00:42:02] <lerman> In principle, that should be easy to do, but my attempts have all failed due to my lack of real understanding of the interface between the interp and the rest of the world.
[00:43:24] <erDiZz> I'm trying to interface it "to the rest of _my_ world" right now :)
[00:44:26] <erDiZz> I'd say the interface is of a retro kind
[00:44:42] <erDiZz> say, I can't have several instances of the interpreter in one process
[00:45:28] <erDiZz> (at the same time)
[00:46:48] <lerman> Yes (in principle). I'd be surprised if it worked.
[00:47:34] <erDiZz> and is it possible to have a different program source than a file?
[00:47:51] <lerman> When there is an underlying assumption that an object is a singleton, the coders sometimes get sloppy and use statics when they shouldn't.
[00:47:50] <erDiZz> in MDI mode, as I understand, it treats errors differently (and maybe something else differs)
[00:48:00] <lerman> Then things break if you have more than one.
[00:48:23] <erDiZz> say, I'd like to pump a huuge program over a network connection directly into the interpreter
[00:49:13] <lerman> That will NOT work. (Perhaps it used to, but not any more). The interpreter must have an input source that is seekable.
[00:49:29] <erDiZz> ah
[00:49:41] <lerman> When it loops or calls a subroutine, it saves the current position and then seeks back to it as necessary.
[00:49:58] <erDiZz> ok, good to know
[00:50:38] <lerman> But we could make it work. Tell the interpreter to copy its input to a file as it reads it. Then when it seeks, just loop back to the file.
[00:50:51] <lerman> If it is reading past the end of the file, use the actual source.
[00:52:00] <lerman> Right now, the seeks and tells are in a variety of places. But most of it (maybe all) is in the file interp_o_word.cc
[00:52:01] <erDiZz> I've imagined some special kind of a file, when it doesn't return EOF until explicitly told so
[00:52:28] <lerman> Sure. A fifo or a pipe will do that.
[00:52:38] <erDiZz> but they' re not seekable
[00:52:53] <lerman> Even a serial terminal will do that. (Correct. Not seekable.)
[00:54:03] <lerman> But any file could look like that. I'm not sure what happens if you try to read off the end of a file in non-blocking mode.
[00:54:49] <lerman> We can make it work if we need to.
[00:55:29] <erDiZz> well, this setup would do: a proxy character device which redirects all read requests to a user-space daemon, which receives the program over the network, writes it to a temporary file, and waits for the data if the request is beyond what's already received
[00:55:44] <erDiZz> simple enough, and no changes to EMC at all
[00:56:06] <lerman> Works for me.
[00:56:57] <tomp> how do i search for user groups on freenode ( looking for which linux to try on old laptop toshiba 730cdt pentium 150 )
[00:57:50] <erDiZz> guess I saw a web site with irc channel search
[00:58:16] <erDiZz> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode
[00:58:28] <tomp> thank you :)
[01:35:00] <erDiZz> woo :) http://mync.sourceforge.net/gncedit.png
[01:35:08] <erDiZz> it works
[01:42:18] <jtr> Argh! I just tried to use the scroll buttons on a screen capture. Again.
[01:47:24] <jtr> erDiZz: Just realized - gncedit shows you the tool path as you write the code. Cool!
[01:48:09] <erDiZz> it is supposed to. Currently that "refresh" button has to be pressed each time
[01:48:18] <erDiZz> that's a matter of a couple of lines though
[01:49:34] <erDiZz> well, I'm off
[01:57:43] <ejholmgren_> ooh an original pentium?
[03:26:53] <bytecolor> what distro does BDI use now?
[03:47:58] <anonimasu> ubuntu
[03:48:06] <anonimasu> well, BDI uses debian I think..
[03:48:15] <anonimasu> though the livecd is ubuntu
[04:28:30] <bytecolor> ok
[04:28:52] <jmkasunich> ok?
[04:28:54] <cradek> BDI is its own distro but it uses mostly debian packages
[04:29:37] <jmkasunich> the emc2 livecd has nothing to do with BDI
[04:29:43] <jmkasunich> however at one point, there was a BDI-Live
[04:30:18] <bytecolor> seems like It was Knoppix at one time? <shrug>
[04:30:31] <jmkasunich> yeah, BDI-Live was knoppix
[04:30:43] <bytecolor> been a while
[04:30:56] <jmkasunich> before that it was RH7 (BDI-TNG) and before that it was RH6 (BDI-2.xx)
[04:31:38] <cradek> I have bad memories of rh6...
[04:31:51] <bytecolor> 6.2 was the last time I used it
[04:36:33] <Jymmm> yo
[04:40:22] <ejholmgren_> yo
[08:27:25] <lerneaen_hydra> 'morning all
[09:20:29] <a-l-p-h-a> ohla
[11:01:43] <alex_joni> bye guys, I'll be back on friday
[11:45:35] <robin_sz> meep?
[12:00:56] <lerneaen_hydra> alex_joni; back on friday?
[12:01:04] <lerneaen_hydra> I wonder where he's off to
[12:57:18] <erDiZz> say I want to perform linear motion in XY plane, and move by an arc in UV plane at the same time, like "G1 X.. Y.. G102 X.. Y.." in a single frame
[12:57:32] <erDiZz> any way of doing this with EMC? :|
[13:01:11] <erDiZz> ...or move by two different arcs in two planes, to be more general
[13:05:10] <anonimasu> helical interpolation?
[13:06:22] <erDiZz> XY and UV are parallel
[13:08:26] <anonimasu> robin_sz: there?
[13:08:37] <erDiZz> If I understand correctly, there was a "VGER" version of the interpreter
[13:08:48] <erDiZz> but EMC comes with NGC version
[13:09:16] <anonimasu> vger?
[13:09:43] <erDiZz> http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/documents/kramer/RS274VGER_11.pdf
[13:10:09] <erDiZz> ...by T. Kramer
[13:11:23] <anonimasu> hm yeah..
[13:12:07] <anonimasu> erit's a limited subset of the normal interpreter..
[13:19:40] <anonimasu> *yawn*
[13:21:34] <robin_sz> anonimasu, here
[13:22:42] <anonimasu> what's up?
[13:24:53] <anonimasu> http://imagebin.org/7252
[13:29:25] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu; don't tell me that you did it manually
[13:30:38] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: haha, no I didnt
[13:31:14] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu; how'd you do it? a plugin?
[13:36:44] <anonimasu> erDiZz: that interpreter is a limited rs274 interpreter
[13:38:27] <anonimasu> erDiZz: I dont know why you would want to run it or what ir provides over the standard interpreter
[13:41:19] <erDiZz> I do have an interpreter that parses G1xx functions, and there is appropriate code for trajectory planning
[13:41:37] <erDiZz> I'll just keep it for certain kind of machines
[13:43:07] <anonimasu> why dosent the normal interpreter work?
[13:44:05] <erDiZz> cus it doesn't do to different arcs simultaneously
[13:44:13] <erDiZz> s/to/two/
[13:44:22] <anonimasu> isnt that a trajectory planner limit+
[13:44:24] <anonimasu> ?
[13:44:34] <erDiZz> I don't know
[13:44:37] <erDiZz> all I need is an interpreter
[13:44:46] <erDiZz> I use my own trajectory planner
[13:46:44] <anonimasu> ah well..
[13:46:45] <anonimasu> im off.
[14:03:04] <lerneaen_hydra> heh, gotta love a standard temp-check i2c chip that powers down the system when probed :/
[14:04:36] <anonimasu> lol
[14:06:47] <lerneaen_hydra> sounds like a smart design moce
[14:06:48] <lerneaen_hydra> *move
[14:19:28] <CIA-19> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/command.c: "linear move in MDI out of range" is a much more helpful error message than the old one.
[16:46:48] <robin_sz> ooh, very exciting news posting on tuxcnc.org ... no news since november and then some rivettign read about err, well, somethig to do with applying patches for something to do with an AMD64 and err, well, whatever, I'm sure its really important
[17:11:35] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/command.c: make a few of these errors clearer still
[17:13:31] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/command.c: backport better error messages
[17:21:25] <Roguish> good morning all. question? how can i increase the number of samples that halscope captures?
[17:21:47] <Roguish> change a variable and recompile?
[17:43:33] <tomp> SWPadnos: there's a bit of interest in the apt programming system, and i added a link to it in the emc wiki. I gather that this is your's and Steve Stalling's host, and dont want to fill it up with stuff thats off topic ( tho it makes gcode for emc ). I'd like you to let me/us know your thoughts. I been prepping a couple tutorials and wondered about loading them onto the wiki. Thanks
[17:59:28] <tomp> after i run halcmd and get the parallel port to blink leds and read buttons (ala owhite's experiments) i try to clean up so i can run emc, but have no luck. how do i clean up after creating pins and threads, and functions? (scripts/realtime stop --> ERROR: Module rtapi is in use by threads,hal_parport,hal_lib etc )
[18:00:40] <fenn> halcmd unload all
[18:00:57] <tomp> ah! thanks
[18:14:52] <jmkasunich> Roguish: I believe there is an arg you can pass when loading the RT part of halscope
[18:15:30] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks
[18:16:23] <Roguish> i've been getting used to halscope. getting better pictures now. but think i have discovered a BUG in emc2.1.0
[18:16:48] <jmkasunich> loadrt scope_rt num_samples=<somenumber>
[18:16:53] <jmkasunich> the default is 16000
[18:17:03] <jmkasunich> whats the bug?
[18:17:05] <Roguish> taking notes again.
[18:17:29] <Roguish> well. kinda interesting. let me attempt to explain what's happening.
[18:18:33] <Roguish> got my system tuned much better. f-error is -5 -6 or so now. good. except when i go above 35 ipm. then the f-error just increases.
[18:19:15] <jmkasunich> background: steppers, servos? what hardware device (if any), or is it software stepping?
[18:19:26] <Roguish> really increases.. very fast to really big numbers. i have tried different tunings, different accel and vel maxes.
[18:19:51] <Roguish> servos. m5i20 with yaskawa ac drives and matching motors.
[18:20:15] <Roguish> pretty stock emc2.1.0
[18:20:35] <jmkasunich> analog to the drives?
[18:21:19] <Roguish> yes. i am using a mesa 7i33 out of the 5i20
[18:21:36] <jmkasunich> are the drives running in velocity mode? (ie: 0V tells the drive "stand still", +10V tells the drive "go right at XXX inches/min"?
[18:21:57] <jmkasunich> or torque mode = 0V tells the drives "make zero torque", and +10V says "make full torque"?
[18:22:16] <Roguish> yes. the drives and motors are tuned seperately with 'simawin' a yaskawa gui setup program.
[18:22:29] <Roguish> sigmawin
[18:22:30] <tomp> tomp listens cuz hes got exactly same hdwr mesa m5i20 7i33 yaskawa motors and amps
[18:22:43] <jmkasunich> so, velocity or torque mode?
[18:22:52] <Roguish> velocity
[18:22:59] <jmkasunich> and what is the velocity scaling?
[18:23:27] <jmkasunich> 10V tells the amp to go XXX inches/min... what is XXX?
[18:23:27] <Roguish> +-10 v = 4500 rmp
[18:24:00] <jmkasunich> which is how many ipm?
[18:24:03] <Roguish> scaling : 416153.6
[18:24:19] <tomp> ( thats the sigmawin viewof things, not the emc view )
[18:24:21] <Roguish> i have a 10:1 gear head
[18:24:20] <jmkasunich> thats counts per inch?
[18:24:49] <jmkasunich> that numbers seems crazy high, lets go thru the math
[18:24:57] <jmkasunich> leadscrew pitch?
[18:25:12] <Roguish> yes. counts per inch. it is scaled pretty good. only off about .016 in 1.00 inches by dial indicator
[18:25:23] <Roguish> 5mm per rev.
[18:25:34] <anonimasu> eh only off?
[18:25:37] <jmkasunich> 0.016 in an inch is not good
[18:25:42] <anonimasu> Roguish:thta's a shitload..
[18:25:50] <anonimasu> especially with servos..
[18:25:51] <jmkasunich> 0.00016 might be considered good
[18:26:06] <anonimasu> eh
[18:26:12] <anonimasu> that's 0.004064
[18:26:17] <anonimasu> that's lots also
[18:26:33] <jmkasunich> ok, we have screw pitch (5mm) and gear ratio (10:1)
[18:26:37] <Roguish> yes
[18:26:40] <jmkasunich> we need counts per rev
[18:26:51] <jmkasunich> what is the encoder resolution?
[18:27:13] <jmkasunich> (are you the one with resolvers that are converted to simulated encoders by the drives?)
[18:27:15] <Roguish> 2048
[18:27:24] <Roguish> no resolvers
[18:27:30] <jmkasunich> ok
[18:27:42] <jmkasunich> and your machine units (ini file units) are inches?
[18:27:49] <Roguish> inches all the way
[18:27:52] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[18:28:06] <jmkasunich> ok, 5mm screws means 25.4 / 5.0 = 5.1 turns per inch
[18:28:24] <jmkasunich> the gearbox means 5.1 * 10 = 51 motor turns per inch
[18:28:33] <tomp> ( the yaskawa can scale what it reports to outside world, it has a 'pass thru encoder, but can scale the output, so the specific resolution may be misleading, butting out now)
[18:28:47] <jmkasunich> the encoder means 51 * 2048 = 104448 counts per inch
[18:29:02] <Roguish> please don't leave yet. i'm not proud....
[18:29:36] <jmkasunich> if the 2048 is actually cycles per rev, not counts per rev, throw another x4 in there
[18:29:48] <jmkasunich> 104448 x 4 = 417792
[18:29:56] <jmkasunich> that is the proper scale value I believe
[18:30:30] <jmkasunich> which is 1.00393 times the value you have
[18:30:40] <jmkasunich> that would account for 0.00393 inches per inch error
[18:30:45] <jmkasunich> dunno where the rest is coming from
[18:30:52] <jmkasunich> how did you get the number you used?>
[18:31:38] <Roguish> i cant recall the math at present,
[18:31:58] <jmkasunich> ok, don't worry about it for now
[18:32:13] <jmkasunich> your value is in the right ballpark anyway
[18:32:18] <Roguish> but why would the f-error go crazy at a particular feedrate?
[18:32:30] <jmkasunich> nearly a half-million counts per inch is a lot but it seems to be correct
[18:32:48] <jmkasunich> not sure yet, I'm working my way throught the troubleshooting process
[18:32:51] <Roguish> that's the gearhead effect.
[18:33:10] <anonimasu> 3how large are your servos?
[18:33:16] <jmkasunich> ok, lets figure max speed....
[18:33:29] <jmkasunich> we have 51 motor revs per inch, and 4500 rpm max motor speed
[18:33:43] <anonimasu> 4500/51
[18:33:46] <jmkasunich> 4500/51 = 88.2 ipm max speed
[18:33:55] <Roguish> 200 w motors with 400w drives on a small, new test x-y stage with 10' x 10' travel.
[18:33:59] <anonimasu> ok
[18:34:09] <jmkasunich> 10 feet?
[18:34:15] <Roguish> 10" x 10"
[18:34:18] <jmkasunich> whew
[18:34:29] <jmkasunich> 88ipm on a 10 foot machine would suck
[18:34:36] <anonimasu> yrah
[18:34:43] <Roguish> last machine i made was 30' x 12' x 8 '
[18:34:43] <anonimasu> 880 woulf be sane..:)
[18:35:00] <Roguish> anyway.
[18:35:13] <jmkasunich> ok, do you know for a fact that the motor/drive combo will actually do 4500 RPM when commanded with 10V?
[18:35:28] <Roguish> that is the max speed i figured also.
[18:35:38] <jmkasunich> 35 ipm * 51 revs/in = 1785 rpm
[18:35:56] <jmkasunich> if something is making the motors top out at that speed, then you'll get following errors if you try to go faster
[18:36:16] <Roguish> yes. but i am depending on the sigmawin program to tell me so. i will jog the motor to 4500 and they really scream.
[18:36:53] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: brb
[18:36:53] <anonimasu> err
[18:36:54] <anonimasu> brb..
[18:36:57] <anonimasu> not to jmk specifically
[18:36:58] <anonimasu> :D
[18:37:11] <tomp> jog in sigmawin can go faster than limits prescribed in other params, which are in effect at runtime
[18:37:15] <Roguish> the break point for the f-error to start increasing is about 35 ipm
[18:38:32] <jmkasunich> how difficult is it to decouple the motors from the screws?
[18:38:41] <jmkasunich> either before or after the gearbox, doesn't matter
[18:38:58] <Roguish> not too hard after the gearhead.
[18:39:03] <jmkasunich> (I want to be able to spin the motors without running the table into a stop)
[18:39:07] <Roguish> ok
[18:39:39] <jmkasunich> we can use halcmd interactively to send whatever voltage we want to the motors
[18:39:49] <jmkasunich> and verify the resulting speed
[18:40:18] <jmkasunich> are you able to do things now? or is the machine somewhere else?
[18:41:07] <Roguish> ok, got a motor off.
[18:42:02] <jmkasunich> ok, I'm starting the m5i20 config of emc here so I can walk you thru things
[18:42:10] <Roguish> ok
[18:42:24] <jmkasunich> go ahead and start yours
[18:42:32] <jmkasunich> and open another shell
[18:43:09] <Roguish> it's running.
[18:43:19] <jmkasunich> which axis did you disconnect?
[18:43:24] <Roguish> y
[18:43:38] <Roguish> #2
[18:43:51] <jmkasunich> ok, start halcmd with -kf
[18:44:07] <jmkasunich> if you are running an installed version, its just "halcmd -kf"
[18:44:17] <jmkasunich> if you have run-in-place its a little different
[18:44:24] <Roguish> got it
[18:44:33] <jmkasunich> type "show sig Y"
[18:44:47] <jmkasunich> it should list about 7-8 items
[18:44:54] <jmkasunich> Yenable Yfault Yhome, etc
[18:45:01] <Roguish> it does
[18:45:26] <jmkasunich> this one is the connection from the PID loop to the DAC:
[18:45:26] <jmkasunich> float 0 Youtput
[18:45:26] <jmkasunich> ==> m5i20.0.dac-01-value
[18:45:26] <jmkasunich> <== pid.1.output
[18:45:39] <jmkasunich> we're gonna disconnect the dac so we can drive it manually
[18:45:57] <Roguish> ok
[18:46:39] <jmkasunich> "unlinkp m5i20.0.dac-01-value"
[18:46:42] <jmkasunich> don
[18:46:48] <jmkasunich> don't type the " "
[18:47:00] <jmkasunich> I'm using that do distinguish commands from me talking
[18:47:15] <Roguish> got it
[18:47:28] <jmkasunich> if you do "show sig Y" again, the Youtput signal should look differnet now
[18:47:35] <jmkasunich> float 0 Youtput
[18:47:38] <jmkasunich> <== pid.1.output
[18:47:50] <jmkasunich> the pid output is still driving the signal, but its not driving the dac
[18:48:36] <jmkasunich> now we have to fake EMC out so it won't throw a following error when we move the axis
[18:49:07] <jmkasunich> "unlinkp axis.1.motor-pos-fb"
[18:49:17] <jmkasunich> that disconnects emc's position feedback
[18:49:46] <jmkasunich> "linkps axis.1.motor-pos-fb Ypos-cmd"
[18:49:56] <jmkasunich> that connects the feedback to the command
[18:50:23] <jmkasunich> "show sig Y" should now include this:
[18:50:24] <jmkasunich> float 0 Ypos-cmd
[18:50:24] <jmkasunich> <== axis.1.motor-pos-cmd
[18:50:24] <jmkasunich> ==> axis.1.motor-pos-fb
[18:50:24] <jmkasunich> ==> pid.1.command
[18:51:03] <jmkasunich> now you can bring EMC out of estop
[18:51:06] <jmkasunich> and do "machine on"
[18:51:27] <Roguish> ok
[18:51:54] <jmkasunich> if you jog Y in emc, the display should change, but the motor should do nothing
[18:52:13] <Roguish> correct
[18:52:21] <jmkasunich> (we've disconnected the motor from EMC, and we are lying to EMC and telling it the motor is doing exactly what EMC tells it to do)
[18:52:32] <jmkasunich> ok, now we can make Y move manually
[18:52:34] <Roguish> i follow.
[18:53:16] <jmkasunich> "setp m5i20.0.dac-01-value 0.1"
[18:53:28] <Roguish> we're seperating emc from the drve to see where the problem might lie.
[18:53:58] <jmkasunich> right
[18:54:25] <jmkasunich> did that setp command make the motor start to move?
[18:54:45] <Roguish> yes
[18:55:15] <jmkasunich> that command should be putting 0.1 volts on the DAC output (I think)
[18:55:23] <jmkasunich> depends on dac scaling
[18:55:33] <jmkasunich> so the motor shouldn't be going that fast
[18:55:54] <jmkasunich> 0.1v out of a 10v full scale is only 1%, or 45 rpm at the motor
[18:55:55] <Roguish> it's not
[18:56:01] <jmkasunich> 4.5 rpm at the gearbox output
[18:56:15] <jmkasunich> does it look like thats what its doing?
[18:56:57] <Roguish> yes, pretty slow
[18:57:19] <jmkasunich> can you verify with any accuracy the actual speed?
[18:57:35] <jmkasunich> count how many times the coupling setscrew goes by in a minute, etc
[18:57:55] <lerneaen_hydra> random question: are most spindle controls linear with voltage/rpm, or exponential? IMO it sounds more sane to have an exp. control
[18:57:58] <jmkasunich> 4.5 rpm = one rev every 13.33 seconds
[18:58:01] <lerneaen_hydra> though more difficult
[18:58:14] <jmkasunich> lerneaen_hydra: I suspect most are linear
[18:59:05] <Roguish> more like 30 secs
[18:59:38] <jmkasunich> ok, that means the motor is running only about 44% of the commanded speed
[18:59:59] <jmkasunich> and that means it will top out around 2000 rpm, not 4500
[19:00:13] <jmkasunich> "setp m5i20.0.dac-01-value 1"
[19:00:19] <jmkasunich> that should make it go 10 times faster
[19:00:31] <jmkasunich> it should be 450 rpm at the motor, and 45 at the screw
[19:00:45] <Roguish> ok, i gave a dac value of 0 and i show .001 v on a meter.
[19:00:46] <jmkasunich> but I bet you'll see 200 at the motor and 20 at the screw
[19:01:10] <jmkasunich> a millivolt of offset isn't terribly bad
[19:01:38] <jmkasunich> it can be corrected for if needed (the dac has an offset parameter) but its not the cause of the problem we're seeing
[19:01:40] <jmkasunich> try 1volt
[19:01:54] <Roguish> dac =1.0 meter shows .386
[19:02:00] <jmkasunich> hmm
[19:02:27] <jmkasunich> "show param m5i20.0.dac-01"
[19:02:50] <jmkasunich> Parameters:
[19:02:50] <jmkasunich> Owner Type Dir Value Name
[19:02:50] <jmkasunich> 07 float RW 1 m5i20.0.dac-01-gain
[19:02:50] <jmkasunich> 07 bit RW TRUE m5i20.0.dac-01-interlaced
[19:02:50] <jmkasunich> 07 float RW 0 m5i20.0.dac-01-offset
[19:02:58] <jmkasunich> you get something like this?
[19:03:17] <Roguish> yes, but gain=.3937
[19:03:36] <jmkasunich> ok, thats why you're not getting the expected voltage
[19:03:52] <jmkasunich> something in your config must be setting that
[19:04:04] <Roguish> ya, that's the output scale.
[19:04:15] <Roguish> wrong?
[19:04:33] <tomp> mm/inch .3937 is 1cm
[19:05:17] <jmkasunich> Roguish: wrong is in the eye of the beholder - there are different ways to look at scaling
[19:05:27] <jmkasunich> but you need to pick one and stick with it
[19:05:39] <jmkasunich> I think you might have a mix of two different approaches
[19:05:57] <jmkasunich> (which isn't surprising, because we don't document that well at all)
[19:06:43] <Roguish> ok, .....?
[19:07:08] <jmkasunich> you managed to get the PID tuned pretty well with the output scale set as it is, right?
[19:07:31] <Roguish> i'm trying to read all the current docs as i am a firm believer in RTFM.
[19:07:48] <Roguish> yes, i think it's tuned pretty well.
[19:07:53] <jmkasunich> well, tuning and scaling for servos isn't in the manual, so its not your fault ;-)
[19:08:23] <jmkasunich> "show param pid.1"
[19:08:40] <jmkasunich> that should give you a fairly long list
[19:08:56] <jmkasunich> with all your gain values
[19:09:06] <Roguish> ya
[19:09:17] <jmkasunich> "show param pid." will give you an even longer list (all three axis, not just Y)
[19:09:45] <jmkasunich> can you pastebin the result of "show param pid" ?
[19:10:11] <Roguish> sure, give me the link to pastbin
[19:10:27] <a-l-p-h-a> oro? alex_joni is not here??
[19:10:38] <jmkasunich> http://pastebin.ca/
[19:10:49] <jmkasunich> a-l-p-h-a: alex is traveling I think
[19:10:55] <a-l-p-h-a> oooh...
[19:12:17] <Roguish> http://pastebin.ca/350816
[19:12:52] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah he said he was going to be back friday
[19:14:15] <a-l-p-h-a> cool
[19:14:20] <a-l-p-h-a> lerneaen_hydra,? sup?
[19:14:33] <a-l-p-h-a> got any ideas for a valentines gift?
[19:16:31] <lerneaen_hydra> not much, coding some java stuff
[19:16:45] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, serious or one-off (the receiver)
[19:16:51] <SWPadnos> IGain of 1 million looks high to me
[19:19:30] <Roguish> SWPadnos: it has a very wide range, up to 2 mil, down to 100k.
[19:20:00] <SWPadnos> is that the range you've experimented with?
[19:20:20] <Roguish> P goes unstable at about 11000.
[19:20:40] <SWPadnos> I suspect that most people have no gains over ~1000 or so
[19:20:42] <Roguish> yes, i've tried several tuning approaches.
[19:20:45] <SWPadnos> 11000 is huge
[19:21:12] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos? got a server with java running anywhere?
[19:21:25] <SWPadnos> a-l-p-h-a, only dreamhost
[19:21:44] <Roguish> i have found it works best to keep the drive/motor tuning fairly soft. and increas the emc tuning.
[19:22:04] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[19:22:38] <SWPadnos> it's unusually difficult to tune a PID inside another PID
[19:22:46] <Roguish> yes it is
[19:22:47] <SWPadnos> which is what you're doing
[19:23:02] <Roguish> took awhile to figure out.
[19:23:56] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, so no java there...
[19:24:38] <SWPadnos> a-l-p-h-a, dunno. there may be. other than some local workstations, those are the only "servers" I have access to
[19:24:55] <a-l-p-h-a> okie doke... was looking for a place to dump a whiteboard.
[19:25:10] <a-l-p-h-a> my hosting doesn't have java
[19:25:14] <tomp> you may want to choose torque/current mode to remove the loop inside a loop ( both yaskawa and emc are trying to control velocity ) ( thus the softening trick works when both are velocity )
[19:25:17] <a-l-p-h-a> maybe not until solaris is up and running there.
[19:27:10] <SWPadnos> a-l-p-h-a, what's the whiteboard app? (is it generally availale, or did you write it?)
[19:27:14] <SWPadnos> available
[19:29:24] <jmkasunich> fsck - got disconnected
[19:29:39] <jmkasunich> Roguish: you still there?
[19:29:41] <SWPadnos> did you get the pastebin address?
[19:29:43] <Roguish> totally.
[19:29:45] <jmkasunich> nope
[19:29:50] <SWPadnos> http://pastebin.ca/350816
[19:30:13] <SWPadnos> I mentioned that the I gain looks very high
[19:30:16] <jmkasunich> ok, you have two choices
[19:30:39] <Roguish> yeah?
[19:30:45] <SWPadnos> you also missed the fact that there's a PID loop in the drive thats tuned "soft" ...
[19:30:46] <jmkasunich> it does seem high, but I'm no tuning expert - if it works it works
[19:31:04] <jmkasunich> anyway, lets deal with the scaling issue first
[19:31:16] <Roguish> listening.
[19:31:29] <jmkasunich> the easy way is to change [AXIS_N]MAX_OUTPUT in the ini file to 25.4
[19:31:58] <jmkasunich> that will allow the PID output to go to 25.4, and the OUTPUT_SCALE of 0.393 will knock that down to 10V
[19:32:08] <jmkasunich> but that means that the PID output is in arbitrary units
[19:32:22] <jmkasunich> the (not much) harder way is to change OUTPUT_SCALE to 1.0
[19:32:41] <jmkasunich> that way, the PID output is in volts, and when it goes to 10 (the current limit) the DAC will put out 10V
[19:32:51] <jmkasunich> the reason its harder is that changing output scale also changes the gains
[19:33:04] <jmkasunich> you will need to multiply your existing gains by 0.393
[19:33:24] <jmkasunich> dgain, igain, and pgain
[19:33:34] <jmkasunich> like I said, its not much harder
[19:34:25] <jmkasunich> as it is right now, the PID output is limited to 10 units by MAX_OUTPUT, and the OUTPUT_SCALE of 0.393 means that 10 units = 3.93 volts
[19:34:59] <SWPadnos> which yields 1768.5 rpm, or 35 IPM ...
[19:35:09] <jmkasunich> so the DAC will never put out more than 3.93 volts, the motors will never go faster than about 1800 rpm, and therefore you get following errors if you try to go faster
[19:35:43] <Roguish> doh!!!!
[19:35:59] <lerneaen_hydra> won't EMC complain if requested speed > maximum speed?
[19:36:10] <jmkasunich> no
[19:36:20] <lerneaen_hydra> not even a graphical thingy in axis?
[19:36:30] <jmkasunich> the only maximum speed it knows about is the speeds in the ini file
[19:36:30] <SWPadnos> it's up to the integrator to tell emc what the maximum speed is
[19:36:45] <jmkasunich> it doesn't know about motor limitations, dac scaling, etc
[19:37:01] <jmkasunich> its the integrator's job to figure that stuff out and tell EMC in the ini file
[19:37:15] <Roguish> i would like MAX_OUTPUT=10 to give 10v.
[19:37:27] <jmkasunich> output scale is not well documented, and in this case, using something other than 1.0 is what caused the problem
[19:37:36] <lerneaen_hydra> jmkasunich; the max speed I meant was the maxvel in the ini
[19:37:41] <jmkasunich> Roguish: I think thats the right way to go
[19:37:49] <jmkasunich> so set OUTPUT_SCALE to 1.0
[19:37:59] <lerneaen_hydra> if the speed in the gcode is > maxvel it should issue an error, right?
[19:38:06] <jmkasunich> and multiply your PID gains by 0.393
[19:38:24] <jmkasunich> lerneaen_hydra: I dunno if it issues an error, or just runs at the lower speed
[19:38:31] <Roguish> can do, will try immediately.
[19:38:37] <lerneaen_hydra> well, it doesn't result in a following error at least
[19:38:56] <SWPadnos> it just limits the requests to the ini maxvel
[19:38:58] <jmkasunich> no, it doesn't
[19:39:02] <SWPadnos> but that's a different problem
[19:39:06] <jmkasunich> (result in a following error)
[19:39:13] <lerneaen_hydra> ok, good
[19:39:42] <SWPadnos> the problem in this case is that the ini maxvel doesn't accurately describe the actual maximum attainable from the motor (+ driver, DAC, ...)
[19:39:55] <jmkasunich> exactly
[19:40:07] <lerneaen_hydra> that's true
[19:40:29] <jmkasunich> dang - there is an omission in the G202 datasheet
[19:40:33] <lerneaen_hydra> the actual maxvel could be less if cutting or something
[19:40:42] <jmkasunich> it shows the overall dims, but not the mounting hole pattern dims
[19:40:51] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[19:41:01] <SWPadnos> is that one of the ones with the built-in capacitor?
[19:41:10] <SWPadnos> or are those the G21x?
[19:41:11] <jmkasunich> yeah
[19:41:35] <SWPadnos> I thought he left the hole pattern the same, but I could definitely be wrong about that
[19:41:43] <jmkasunich> I can measure the dims, but I was hoping to get the actual numbers from the datasheet
[19:41:50] <jmkasunich> it probably is the same
[19:41:58] <jmkasunich> but do any of the other datasheets spec the pattern?
[19:42:22] <lerneaen_hydra> http://loadingreadyrun.com/videos/view/49/How+to+Talk+like+a+Pirate
[19:42:34] <SWPadnos> I think they do - lemme check
[19:43:02] <jmkasunich> the 201 does
[19:43:19] <SWPadnos> yep - 2-3/8 x 1-3/4
[19:43:52] <Roguish> jmkasunich: you are a HERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[19:44:01] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[19:44:06] <jmkasunich> glad I could help
[19:44:19] <jmkasunich> halcmd in interactive mode is usefull for digging into problems
[19:45:08] <Roguish> i know you guys a bustin butt coding and developing and all, but please, please don't forget to do some documenting.
[19:45:19] <Roguish> ONCE, AGAIN, THANKS TO ALL.
[19:45:41] <jmkasunich> Roguish: the default value of OUTPUT_SCALE in that config was 1.0
[19:45:56] <Roguish> SWPadnos, jmkasunich, tomp, et. al.
[19:46:08] <jmkasunich> if there was some doc that prompted you to change it, point at it and I'll try to fix it
[19:46:16] <SWPadnos> oh sure - list me first when aksing or documentation :)
[19:46:20] <SWPadnos> s/or/for/
[19:46:27] <Roguish> no that was for thanks.
[19:46:30] <jmkasunich> aksing?
[19:46:44] <SWPadnos> yeah - that too :)
[19:46:51] <SWPadnos> don't axe me fer it
[19:47:12] <Roguish> you guys making fun of my typing?
[19:47:22] <jmkasunich> no, SWP's typing
[19:47:42] <SWPadnos> yeah -mine. it's all mine :)
[19:52:25] <Roguish> jmkasunich: where should i put the loadrt to increase halscope samples? i don't see it loaded in any of the config .hal files.
[19:53:24] <SWPadnos> you can add a HALCMD line to the [HAL] section of the ini file
[20:05:03] <jmkasunich> Roguish: turns out its easier than that
[20:05:05] <jmkasunich> no loadrt needed
[20:05:20] <jmkasunich> you can just add the number of samples to the halscope command line
[20:05:31] <Roguish> ?
[20:05:54] <jmkasunich> when you start halscope:
[20:05:58] <Roguish> i start halscope from inside axis, but i can do it via command line.
[20:06:03] <jmkasunich> halscope 30000
[20:06:20] <jmkasunich> would give you 30000 samples instead of the default 16000
[20:06:52] <jmkasunich> if you are doing it from within axis, then the loadrt approach is the way to go
[20:07:07] <jmkasunich> background (if you care):
[20:07:21] <jmkasunich> the realtime part of halscope that does the sampling is called scope_rt
[20:07:30] <Roguish> what would the exact command in the ini file be?
[20:07:38] <jmkasunich> you can load it with "loadrt scope_rt num_samples=blah"
[20:08:02] <jmkasunich> once its loaded, when you start the user space portion, it will use the number of samples reserved by the realtime part
[20:08:14] <Roguish> did that, didn't seem to work.
[20:08:17] <jmkasunich> if the realtime part isn't running when you start the user space portion, then the user part startrs it
[20:08:37] <jmkasunich> hang on
[20:09:13] <jmkasunich> in the [HAL| section of the ini file...
[20:09:24] <jmkasunich> you'll see:
[20:09:25] <jmkasunich> # list of halcmd commands to execute
[20:09:25] <jmkasunich> # commands are executed in order, HALCMD1 to HALCMD<HALCMDMAX>
[20:09:25] <jmkasunich> #HALCMD = save neta
[20:10:10] <Roguish> yes along with 3 HALFILE lines
[20:10:25] <jmkasunich> add HALCMD = loadrt scope_rt num_samples=30000 (or whatever you want)
[20:14:09] <Roguish> emc crashes with that command.
[20:14:27] <Roguish> fails to start.
[20:14:31] <jmkasunich> stand by
[20:16:40] <jmkasunich> works fine here
[20:16:45] <jmkasunich> "HALCMD = loadrt scope_rt num_samples=30000"
[20:16:57] <jmkasunich> you added that exactly, to your ini file, right after the line that reads:
[20:17:01] <jmkasunich> #HALCMD = save neta
[20:17:03] <jmkasunich> ?
[20:17:22] <Roguish> yes
[20:17:48] <Roguish> set it to 32000
[20:17:52] <jmkasunich> what error message did you get?
[20:18:30] <jmkasunich> works here with 32000 too
[20:20:43] <Roguish> HAL:0: ERROR systemv failed, returned 1
[20:21:15] <Roguish> HAL:0: ERROR: insmod failed, returned -1
[20:21:17] <jmkasunich> ok, need more info
[20:21:23] <jmkasunich> do "sudo dmesg -c"
[20:21:27] <jmkasunich> then try again
[20:21:38] <jmkasunich> and pastebin all output from emc, as well as the output from "dmesg"
[20:21:59] <jmkasunich> (run dmesg after you try, and pastebin that output, not the dmesg -c output)
[20:22:50] <Roguish> you want the full debug info?
[20:22:57] <jmkasunich> yeah
[20:25:45] <Roguish> http://pastebin.ca/350874
[20:27:15] <jmkasunich> ok, I lied
[20:27:30] <jmkasunich> the ability to change the number of samples is a post-2.1 feature
[20:27:33] <jmkasunich> sorry
[20:27:50] <jmkasunich> (I was testing here with a CVS version)
[20:28:08] <Roguish> jmkasunich, i gotta run. thanks for the help. i can use the terminal halscope.
[20:28:08] <jmkasunich> for some reason I thought that was in 2.1, but its not
[20:28:14] <Roguish> good future feature. i like it.
[20:28:50] <Roguish> ttfn
[20:28:55] <jmkasunich> bye
[20:30:16] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/demo_mazak/demo_mazak.ini: remove out-of-date comments
[20:30:17] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/m5i20/m5i20.ini: remove out-of-date comments
[20:30:17] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/motenc/motenc.ini: remove out-of-date comments
[20:30:49] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/configs/demo_mazak/demo_mazak.ini: backport: remove out-of-date comments
[20:30:48] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/configs/m5i20/m5i20.ini: backport: remove out-of-date comments
[20:30:49] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/configs/motenc/motenc.ini: backport: remove out-of-date comments
[20:33:12] <jmkasunich> lunchtime
[20:34:01] <Skullworks> is that a rt command?
[20:45:40] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, it causes a RT hang for up to 162000 seconds (45 minutes or so)
[20:53:14] <a-l-p-h-a> I can't find a freak'n box to box my gift in... anyone got any good ideas on making a box?
[20:53:40] <lerneaen_hydra> cubical?
[20:53:44] <a-l-p-h-a> cardboard, alu angle stock, sheet...
[20:53:48] <lerneaen_hydra> what's it supposed to look like?
[20:53:59] <a-l-p-h-a> lerneaen_hydra, dunno... need inspiration.
[20:54:03] <lerneaen_hydra> an origami box could look cool
[20:54:16] <lerneaen_hydra> very simple to fold
[20:54:20] <a-l-p-h-a> lerneaen_hydra, I'm asian... origami is for white people now... so not asian to do something like.
[20:54:38] <lerneaen_hydra> you're asain?
[20:54:43] <lerneaen_hydra> where from?
[20:54:44] <a-l-p-h-a> I'm Canadian born Chinese.
[20:54:48] <lerneaen_hydra> cool
[20:54:57] <a-l-p-h-a> with a UK citizenship...
[20:55:01] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, origami isn't a good idea then
[20:55:02] <lerneaen_hydra> HAHA!
[20:55:27] <a-l-p-h-a> also, it's gonna hold candy too... and I want to fit an ipod in there.
[20:55:33] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm
[20:55:45] <a-l-p-h-a> the ipod box is, something like6"x6"x1.5"
[20:56:09] <lerneaen_hydra> is this the valentines day box?
[20:56:16] <a-l-p-h-a> something like that.
[20:56:19] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, ok
[20:56:55] <lerneaen_hydra> I was about to say that if it was for a (guy) friend then you could weld together a 3mm steel box around it and let them open it best they can....
[20:56:57] <lerneaen_hydra> I did that once
[20:57:00] <lerneaen_hydra> damn fun
[20:57:14] <lerneaen_hydra> took a while to open
[20:57:17] <a-l-p-h-a> hmmmm... I'm thinking right now. of alu, with black plexi glass as walls.
[20:57:25] <Skullworks> I did that too
[20:57:37] <a-l-p-h-a> lerneaen_hydra, I don't think the GF would appreciate that.
[20:57:46] <lerneaen_hydra> nope
[20:57:48] <lerneaen_hydra> probably not
[20:58:03] <a-l-p-h-a> hmmmmmmmmmmm.... just thought of an idea.
[20:58:03] <Skullworks> except I put an access cover on one side held on by 32 #4-40 screws
[20:58:12] <a-l-p-h-a> 32?!?!
[20:58:21] <a-l-p-h-a> damn... the tapping would be such a pain in the ass.
[20:58:36] <Skullworks> CNC dude... I'm lazy
[20:58:42] <a-l-p-h-a> red plexi glass, with a alu frame.
[20:58:51] <lerneaen_hydra> Skullworks; oh, that's cheating
[20:58:53] <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks, I don't have an tapping attachment...
[20:59:01] <Skullworks> used a air-butterfly to put them in...
[20:59:18] <lerneaen_hydra> the real way involves welding everything shut so you have to use an angle grinder or similar to open it
[21:00:27] <Skullworks> yeah then open with a plasma cutter and hope the static don't hurt the iPod
[21:01:01] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah :D
[21:01:16] <lerneaen_hydra> or just use lots and lots of ablative sheilding
[21:01:22] <lerneaen_hydra> several inches
[21:03:44] <a-l-p-h-a> the ipod box was gonna be surrounded by cinnamin herats.
[21:03:46] <a-l-p-h-a> hearts
[21:03:49] <a-l-p-h-a> thinking of making a box...
[21:04:17] <a-l-p-h-a> alu... would need something like 12-16 little cubes of alu...
[21:04:23] <a-l-p-h-a> gonna draw it in cad now.
[21:04:29] <Skullworks> need to make one of those boxes that if you slide the proper part out the whole thing comes apart like a puzzle
[21:05:19] <Skullworks> used to see them sold in novelty shops made of wood
[21:05:34] <a-l-p-h-a> yeah... those are cool
[21:05:38] <Skullworks> had a few when I was young
[21:05:39] <a-l-p-h-a> saw on that was made of stainless...
[21:05:47] <a-l-p-h-a> one key piece, the rest puzzle pieces.
[21:05:54] <a-l-p-h-a> was pretty cool... let me see if I cant find it.
[21:06:07] <lerneaen_hydra> huh?
[21:06:17] <lerneaen_hydra> what's this?
[21:06:35] <Skullworks> maybe there is some page out there... fire up ggogle
[21:06:48] <Skullworks> giggle
[21:07:39] <pier_> hi all... does anyone know how to use rtai_ulldiv?
[21:09:07] <fenn> oo i like the velocity display in axis
[21:09:11] <a-l-p-h-a> can't find it now.
[21:09:25] <a-l-p-h-a> it was on cnc zone
[21:10:06] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20640&d=1154742127
[21:10:06] <a-l-p-h-a> found it
[21:10:22] <tomp> re: rtai_ulldiv , not me, very few are that deep, that they are familiar with the rtai calls, i suggest asking cradek/jepler/joni/jmk
[21:10:42] <a-l-p-h-a> this was the thread... http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167235 it's about me!!! :D
[21:10:47] <a-l-p-h-a> or at least my work heh
[21:11:56] <a-l-p-h-a> that's some fun... machining that sucker.
[21:12:27] <a-l-p-h-a> trying to get it aligned properly and stuff... not fun unless you have a rotary table I would assume
[21:12:55] <pier_> tomp: thanks
[21:13:18] <tomp> maybe the rtai or comedi ppl ?
[21:14:31] <pier_> I found a mail talking about that and the guy who asked managed to get it done, but did't explain how
[21:14:57] <pier_> I'd like just to be able to perform a division
[21:15:27] <tomp> is that unsigned long divide?
[21:15:35] <pier_> beetween RTIME values
[21:15:41] <pier_> yes
[21:18:14] <tomp> not familiar, just kinda guessed
[21:18:47] <pier_> np
[21:23:15] <slundell> I have a question about dallurs config. I see he is not here, but maybe someone else can help me.
[21:24:44] <slundell> in dallur-advanced.hal, in the section "connect all limit signals to relevant axes". What is the logic of "pos" and "neg" there?
[21:46:47] <anonimasu> ^_^
[22:27:54] <robin_sz> sigh ... how I hate cnczone
[22:28:41] <robin_sz> you have to scroll down a whole page before you are clear of the adverts ... theres another entire pages worth at the bottom ... sigh
[22:28:45] <anonimasu> :)
[22:29:35] <Skullworks> someone has to pay for the bandwidth
[22:30:15] <Skullworks> atleast thats cheaper these days
[22:33:33] <robin_sz> thats only part of the problem ...
[22:33:44] <robin_sz> the other two parts are:
[22:34:17] <robin_sz> 1) avergae IQ of the users is in single figures ... a few brighter ones on there now, but it does tend to attract pondlife
[22:34:58] <Skullworks> floatsom...
[22:35:00] <robin_sz> 2) censorship. try responding to a question about someoen askign if something is worth buying .. .it happens to be crap and you say so,
[22:35:13] <robin_sz> no problem ...
[22:35:31] <robin_sz> unless the stuff is advertised on there ...
[22:36:17] <robin_sz> there were some really REALLY bad stepper drives a guy was advertising, and I took the trouble to explain to someone why they were not worth having .. it "disappeared"
[22:37:07] <cradek> environments where you can't say anything negative about anything breed idiocy
[22:37:10] <Skullworks> name of said drive?
[22:37:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz forgets
[22:37:36] <robin_sz> basically, it was 4/8 fets ... and a 3V supply ...
[22:37:43] <Skullworks> since there are no edit nazis here
[22:37:58] <robin_sz> the performance one was a 5V supply and some big resistors in series with the fets ...
[22:38:13] <robin_sz> no chopping, just ... clunk, clunk, clunk
[22:38:34] <Skullworks> ah - high tech ( if you were living on the 70's still).
[22:38:39] <robin_sz> ?
[22:38:51] <anonimasu> :)
[22:38:53] <cradek> my mill used to run like that (half stepping) - a pretty naive drive system
[22:38:55] <robin_sz> my 60s Bridgeport had saturable inductors in series with the coils ...
[22:39:04] <robin_sz> no, no no ...
[22:39:11] <robin_sz> cradek: no ... not half stepping
[22:39:35] <robin_sz> you misunderstand .. 3V PSU ... just switched across the coils ...
[22:39:41] <robin_sz> right?
[22:39:46] <cradek> well you could half step with that setup
[22:39:52] <robin_sz> that wasnt the issue
[22:39:53] <cradek> depends how you drive the transistors
[22:40:03] <robin_sz> it was the 3V and total lack of current control
[22:40:13] <cradek> sure I understand
[22:40:24] <Skullworks> coil saturation times - max step...
[22:40:24] <robin_sz> people complained it didnt go very fast ...
[22:40:32] <cradek> duh
[22:40:51] <Skullworks> and hot too I would guess
[22:41:10] <robin_sz> even my 196x bridgeport ran 70V to the motors and had a saturable inductor thing to limit the current
[22:41:46] <cradek> still kept your shop warm I bet
[22:42:13] <cradek> (I've seen the fins on those old stepper motors)
[22:42:26] <Skullworks> 1st CNC I was trained on was a Bridgeport with a Bandit series 2 CNC.
[22:43:03] <Skullworks> still have the paper tapes...
[22:43:32] <Skullworks> no radius comp
[22:43:43] <Skullworks> such a joy!
[22:46:46] <robin_sz> http://www.cnczone.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/385/cat/9/date/1140378910
[22:46:55] <robin_sz> there you go ... theres the shite drives :)
[22:50:58] <robin_sz> and for the ultimate fun .. http://www.stepperworld.com/FET3dynamo.htm#4 ... oh yes, this is the top of the line system with a 5V PSU ...
[22:51:44] <robin_sz> Skullworks, ours had a BOSS 5 control ... up until we ripped it off and put a Baldor and some Geckos on it :)
[22:52:28] <robin_sz> we've run some tricky 20 hour plus contouring programs on it and its not missed a beat
[22:59:09] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, what's a baldor?
[22:59:24] <robin_sz> motion controller
[22:59:30] <a-l-p-h-a> okie.
[23:00:01] <a-l-p-h-a> wonder can I get these sourced locally. W0QQitemZ190026120528QQihZ009QQcategoryZ41403QQcmdZViewItem or http://cgi.ebay.com/4-C1375Z-Large-ATA-Flight-Case-Trunk-Ball-Corner_W0QQitemZ190079961578QQihZ009QQcategoryZ41403QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[23:00:01] <robin_sz> USB on one end, 8 axis of step output or servos and encoders or whatever on the other
[23:00:15] <a-l-p-h-a> oops. first link was http://cgi.ebay.com/Lots-of-8-C1180Z-Mini-Flat-Flight-Case-Trunk-Corners_W0QQitemZ190026120528QQihZ009QQcategoryZ41403QQcmdZViewItem
[23:00:23] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, sounds like a GREX almost
[23:01:02] <robin_sz> a-l-p-h-a, yeah like that, but with real servo capability ratehr than just step pulses ...
[23:01:19] <robin_sz> the GREX will be able to do servos eventually, but not just yet
[23:01:42] <robin_sz> thos ball corners are very very common
[23:01:45] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, as opposed to the mesa, which does have real servo already
[23:01:50] <a-l-p-h-a> I'm confused...
[23:02:01] <a-l-p-h-a> how does the mesa connect to servo geckos?
[23:02:02] <robin_sz> I didnt know MESA did a stand alone controller?
[23:02:09] <a-l-p-h-a> thought the servo geckos are step/dir
[23:02:14] <robin_sz> they are
[23:02:19] <anonimasu> yep
[23:02:37] <a-l-p-h-a> so... the mesa + gecko 3xx series doesn't play nice with each other then?
[23:02:42] <robin_sz> no clue
[23:02:59] <a-l-p-h-a> jmkasunich, or SWPadnos would be able to answer my Qs then.
[23:03:08] <robin_sz> the mesa is encoders in, +-10V out right?
[23:03:21] <a-l-p-h-a> shit... just put away the groceries, and now I'm hungry... wasn't when I was putting them away
[23:03:29] <robin_sz> and it doesnt have a motion controller on board
[23:03:41] <robin_sz> you need emc or some such to make it work
[23:04:00] <robin_sz> the Baldor and GREX have the motion control on board
[23:04:26] <robin_sz> well, to be accurate, the GREX has emcs motion controller on board :)
[23:05:00] <SWPadnos> the G-REX has a highly modified EMC controller on it, and that in only one of the configurations
[23:05:12] <robin_sz> true
[23:05:16] <SWPadnos> not the generally used one (with Mach), or the GeckoMotion one
[23:05:27] <robin_sz> true
[23:05:39] <robin_sz> the ones I have have it on anyway
[23:05:42] <SWPadnos> There is a Linux client for it though (out of date, I think)
[23:05:54] <robin_sz> mmm ... "out of date" ?
[23:05:55] <SWPadnos> are you using it with custom software?
[23:06:04] <SWPadnos> or with Mach?
[23:06:14] <robin_sz> no, the linux/win front end and the emc-like software
[23:06:28] <robin_sz> the frontend seems to work just fine on linux or windows
[23:06:55] <SWPadnos> I mean out of date in that those clients haven't been updated in a while, AFAIK
[23:07:03] <SWPadnos> not that they suck
[23:07:24] <robin_sz> I compiled one only a month or so ago ...
[23:07:31] <robin_sz> but yes,
[23:07:40] <robin_sz> steve hardy hasn't released anyting recently
[23:07:52] <SWPadnos> right - I haven't noticed anything anyway
[23:07:58] <SWPadnos> not that I've been looking though
[23:08:01] <robin_sz> ive not tried the Mach4 thing .. dont enjoy that much pain
[23:08:10] <SWPadnos> nope
[23:08:57] <robin_sz> the baldor stuff is good, but pricey
[23:09:08] <robin_sz> $700 for the USB box thing
[23:09:14] <SWPadnos> I have Baldor motors, but I can't afford any of their stuff new
[23:09:18] <robin_sz> right
[23:09:30] <robin_sz> I buy the odd servo drive when I see one cheap
[23:09:38] <SWPadnos> well, the problem with the G-Rex is that it isn't designed for industrial safety standards
[23:09:42] <robin_sz> we have a full baldor rig on the DIY laser
[23:09:50] <robin_sz> ?
[23:09:50] <SWPadnos> it's just a nice step generator, with extra stuff
[23:10:17] <SWPadnos> well, it winks current instead of sourcing, there is no isolation for the digital outputs or the analog I/O
[23:10:29] <robin_sz> eh?
[23:10:31] <SWPadnos> until the second revision, the startup state was random
[23:10:58] <robin_sz> isolation should always be done with optos, off baord
[23:11:07] <robin_sz> rev2 was better yes
[23:11:08] <SWPadnos> the outputs sink to a common ground
[23:11:22] <robin_sz> use optos
[23:11:45] <SWPadnos> of course
[23:11:59] <SWPadnos> but I'd imagine the Baldor has some of that stuff built in ...
[23:12:05] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:12:33] <robin_sz> but the Baldor is closed source
[23:12:36] <SWPadnos> so the $700 price tag isn't as bad when you add in all the little "bits and bobs" you need with the G-Rex
[23:12:51] <robin_sz> probably not
[23:13:10] <robin_sz> for the avergae user, a GREX is fine though as the geckos have the optos in em
[23:13:28] <SWPadnos> yep
[23:13:31] <robin_sz> you just need an opto or relay or something for the additional outputs
[23:13:51] <robin_sz> and lets face it, most hobbyists dont even have their spindles on/off under cnc control
[23:13:52] <SWPadnos> sure. too bad the average user doesn't know the meaning of "closed loop control"
[23:13:59] <robin_sz> ?
[23:13:59] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:14:08] <robin_sz> the grex can be closed loop
[23:14:25] <anonimasu> yeah, but 95% of the users have no clue why they would want it
[23:14:27] <robin_sz> true
[23:14:40] <SWPadnos> it can be, but what percentage of people do you think use it with anything other than the Mach firmware?
[23:14:52] <SWPadnos> (which is not closed loop)
[23:14:57] <robin_sz> mmm .. zero
[23:15:02] <robin_sz> well small
[23:15:16] <SWPadnos> yeah - zero enough for our putposes :)
[23:15:21] <SWPadnos> purposes, too
[23:15:33] <robin_sz> which is a shame
[23:15:42] <robin_sz> in reallity though
[23:15:58] <robin_sz> the average small stepper powered router gets away witout it
[23:16:11] <robin_sz> infact, plenty of commercial stuff is open loop
[23:16:21] <robin_sz> smal sign routers up to 48"
[23:16:33] <SWPadnos> yep. I see posts on the CCED and Gecko lists talking about Mach being closed loop because someone wrote a plug-in that will stop the machine if the error gets too high
[23:16:52] <SWPadnos> (using encoder input on the parport, counted in software)
[23:16:56] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:17:04] <SWPadnos> that's a moving limit switch, not closed loop control
[23:17:12] <robin_sz> at least ow they shold be able to count on the grex
[23:17:13] <SWPadnos> they got annoyed with me when I pointed that out :)
[23:17:31] <anonimasu> gah
[23:17:52] <robin_sz> wait ... did I show yo the servos I spotted on eBay?
[23:18:05] <anonimasu> I wonder how good mach really is compared to emc2 ;) how a compairsion would look
[23:18:18] <anonimasu> emc2 running with a full setup
[23:18:23] <anonimasu> and mach with one..
[23:18:27] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:19:06] <robin_sz> mmm ... dont go there :)
[23:19:09] <SWPadnos> I was thinking of just such a comparison
[23:19:27] <robin_sz> as ever, performance wise EMC would kock spots off it
[23:19:31] <SWPadnos> I also think it would be cool to write a converter so EMC could load their XML files (at least the port pinout and tuning stuff)
[23:19:38] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:19:54] <robin_sz> and we are catching up fast on config/interface
[23:19:58] <SWPadnos> but I don't think the format is documented, and there was so much crap in there, iI can't tell what's important
[23:20:04] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[23:20:12] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: post a video..
[23:20:18] <SWPadnos> and I have to reboot my machine every time I run it, since it screws up the timers so badly
[23:20:18] <anonimasu> :D
[23:20:19] <anonimasu> lol
[23:20:25] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:20:29] <anonimasu> probably the mach users would shit themselves...
[23:21:05] <robin_sz> I do still like the ability to create your own displays/layout in a drag'n'drop way
[23:21:15] <SWPadnos> yeah yeah ;)
[23:21:25] <robin_sz> the py widgets will soon be there though
[23:21:38] <robin_sz> thats coming on very fast now ...
[23:22:07] <robin_sz> of course, its all wasted effort
[23:22:48] <SWPadnos> of course
[23:22:51] <SWPadnos> why?
[23:23:22] <robin_sz> I expect paul_c to be releasing his tuxcnc ting anytime now and emc2 will just be so poor in comparison ... ;)
[23:23:44] <anonimasu> tuxcnc?
[23:23:55] <robin_sz> www.tuxcnc.org
[23:23:57] <SWPadnos> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
[23:24:16] <SWPadnos> just remember to tell me the sloccounts when he does :)
[23:24:22] <anonimasu> robin_sz: http://www.tuxcnc.org/pivot/entry.php?id=7#body
[23:24:26] <robin_sz> read the mm .. 3rd article down where he umm "evaluates" emc2
[23:24:43] <anonimasu> HAH
[23:24:54] <robin_sz> thats the one
[23:25:02] <anonimasu> I'd like to see tuxcnc and the trajectory control and stuff.
[23:25:24] <robin_sz> well, yeah .. its just emc oldstyle
[23:25:32] <anonimasu> heh..
[23:25:33] <SWPadnos> well, tuxcnc is an emc offshoot, so I wouldn't expect it to be all that bad
[23:25:50] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: already forgot about how the old planner behaved?
[23:25:52] <SWPadnos> and Paul is a smart guy - he may have made some nice improvements somewhere
[23:26:04] <SWPadnos> no, I haven't
[23:26:09] <robin_sz> too stuck with the old stuff though
[23:26:13] <anonimasu> it was damn bad.
[23:26:18] <SWPadnos> but the solution we have probably isn't the only one out there
[23:26:37] <SWPadnos> and there's no reason why Paul can't use the emc2 planner - it is GPL, after all
[23:26:47] <robin_sz> true
[23:27:00] <robin_sz> andmaybe we can pick up on some of his bits
[23:27:09] <robin_sz> should we ever see the source ;)
[23:27:13] <anonimasu> heh
[23:27:19] <anonimasu> as he's hellbent on GPL issues..
[23:27:20] <anonimasu> yeah..
[23:27:21] <anonimasu> we will
[23:27:28] <robin_sz> ummm
[23:27:42] <anonimasu> if he ever releases anything :D
[23:27:44] <robin_sz> liek we ever saw the source packages for his .debs?
[23:28:03] <anonimasu> http://www.tuxcnc.org/pivot/entry.php?id=11#body
[23:28:23] <jtr> Three CNC seminars at Cabin Fever this year - one mentioned only Mach, the speaker for another was a Mach developer - the third I missed.
[23:28:59] <anonimasu> d. Anyone contemplating using the code for any other purpose other than personal use needs to conduct a full audit and read the user/developer mail archives (would be wise to consider the commit logs also).
[23:29:02] <jtr> Sherline was there runnig their CNC machines - BDI, I think?
[23:30:04] <SWPadnos> back in a bit - just got the 2-minute warning for dinner :)
[23:30:17] <anonimasu> ok
[23:30:33] <robin_sz> anonimasu, yeah, that bit REALLY wound me up ... if he thinks theres a copyright issue, he should say where, file, line and version
[23:30:44] <robin_sz> put up, or shut up
[23:30:52] <anonimasu> well, he did in the mailing list..
[23:30:53] <anonimasu> :D
[23:30:57] <anonimasu> several times..
[23:31:04] <robin_sz> oh,
[23:31:07] <anonimasu> that there are ones..
[23:31:09] <anonimasu> :D
[23:31:19] <robin_sz> and what was the bits of code he identified?
[23:31:40] <robin_sz> not smallmath again?
[23:31:50] <anonimasu> nope, I dont think he talked about that..
[23:31:53] <anonimasu> he just complained about it..
[23:32:30] <robin_sz> well, I'll pay more attention whe nhe releases the source packages to the ,debs for BDI
[23:33:07] <jmkasunich> that copyright stuff is nothing more than FUD
[23:33:13] <anonimasu> I just wish he would stop being so concerned over something he's so interested in pointing out that it sucks..
[23:33:25] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: I wish there was a way to make him stfu.
[23:34:03] <anonimasu> :D
[23:34:09] <jmkasunich> well lately he hasn't said anything on list
[23:34:16] <jmkasunich> probably because he knows we'll call him on it
[23:34:21] <robin_sz> heh
[23:34:38] <robin_sz> isnt he working part time for some american outfit these days?
[23:34:43] <jmkasunich> no idea
[23:34:44] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:35:37] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[23:35:54] <robin_sz> so .. these servos I spotted on eBay ...
[23:36:32] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320078627767
[23:36:41] <robin_sz> and he has another pallet of 5
[23:36:53] <robin_sz> they're JMK sized servos they are :)
[23:37:22] <anonimasu> nice!
[23:37:39] <robin_sz> I want them, but have no clue what for :)
[23:37:38] <jmkasunich> purty
[23:37:49] <anonimasu> robin_sz: build a mill
[23:38:00] <robin_sz> anonimasu, you saw how big they are?
[23:38:03] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:38:03] <anonimasu> :D
[23:38:14] <robin_sz> 13kw ... 20hp
[23:38:21] <jmkasunich> big ole gantry mill, toothbelt drive on both sides
[23:38:29] <anonimasu> :)
[23:38:45] <robin_sz> so .. 40hp of X axis ...
[23:38:51] <robin_sz> wait, not a mill ....
[23:38:59] <robin_sz> a planer!
[23:38:58] <anonimasu> spindle.
[23:39:25] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:39:44] <robin_sz> thought it might make a nice lift motor for my sheet feeder
[23:40:04] <robin_sz> needs a 1000kg lift
[23:40:55] <robin_sz> I presume they do servo drives that big?
[23:41:08] <anonimasu> ofcourse..
[23:41:19] <robin_sz> oh good
[23:41:51] <anonimasu> how do you think they position machinetool spindles?
[23:41:53] <anonimasu> :D
[23:41:57] <anonimasu> err mill spindles?
[23:42:02] <jmkasunich> of course they make them, but you better be sitting down when you read the price
[23:42:08] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:42:08] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:42:16] <robin_sz> I'll wait for one cheap on ebay :)
[23:42:31] <anonimasu> I guess you can forget about it
[23:42:47] <robin_sz> no chance?
[23:43:24] <anonimasu> 13.2Kw!
[23:43:39] <robin_sz> I bought a 15A 300V servo drive on there recently for ... £50
[23:43:44] <robin_sz> baldor
[23:43:55] <robin_sz> not played with it yet
[23:44:08] <anonimasu> yay laptop backed up.
[23:44:09] <anonimasu> :D
[23:44:41] <robin_sz> what are these "backups" of which you speak? are they a custom amongst your people?
[23:44:48] <anonimasu> heh, recovery.
[23:45:03] <anonimasu> I dropped my lappy 5 cm into my bag with the power on, and windows ate something
[23:45:14] <robin_sz> thats one of my favourite snowclones
[23:45:33] <robin_sz> dont run windows on laptops?
[23:45:44] <anonimasu> I need it for work.,..
[23:45:47] <robin_sz> ahh
[23:45:59] <anonimasu> it's my work laptop
[23:46:07] <robin_sz> to be fair, I'm just about to order a win laptop
[23:46:14] <anonimasu> so I were getting ready to kill myself.. :D
[23:46:23] <robin_sz> dell precision M90 :)
[23:46:26] <anonimasu> "no no no no! GIVE ME MY FILES!"
[23:46:45] <anonimasu> are the the smallest ones they have+
[23:46:52] <robin_sz> nop
[23:46:53] <robin_sz> e
[23:46:55] <anonimasu> ok
[23:46:59] <robin_sz> 17" screen
[23:47:07] <robin_sz> OpenGL graphics
[23:47:13] <robin_sz> SW certified
[23:47:27] <robin_sz> price tag like a small house
[23:47:31] <anonimasu> heh..
[23:47:40] <robin_sz> but, it has to be done
[23:47:47] <anonimasu> not 1399eur..
[23:47:49] <anonimasu> that's cheap..
[23:47:52] <robin_sz> no,
[23:47:57] <robin_sz> more like 3k eur
[23:48:18] <anonimasu> well, it's not insane :)
[23:48:22] <robin_sz> no
[23:48:26] <robin_sz> but I am
[23:48:34] <robin_sz> vartch vartch
[23:48:49] <anonimasu> ?
[23:48:53] <robin_sz> stapling machine mrs polansky
[23:49:04] <anonimasu> 390eur is what the cheapest dell costs now
[23:49:06] <anonimasu> :D
[23:49:09] <anonimasu> holy crap
[23:49:15] <robin_sz> laptops?
[23:49:23] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:49:28] <robin_sz> not bad
[23:49:49] <robin_sz> they do a basic desktop for 120 GBP
[23:50:25] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, you around?
[23:50:55] <robin_sz> no monitor, but what, less than 200 eur for a new desktop machine?