#emc | Logs for 2007-02-05

[00:07:35] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/scara/ (8 files): scara config
[00:08:08] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: included scara config
[00:08:57] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/scara/.cvsignore: silencing
[00:39:41] <Twingy> tomp, I think I have that other bug fixed now
[00:46:56] <A-L-P-H-A> http://rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_mincing.shtml
[01:10:15] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/kinematics/scarakins.c: documented kins parameters, rewrote and commented code for clarity, and to properly handle tool rotation and tooltip not centered on end-effector
[01:40:26] <ejholmgren> "I don't want one of those systems based on the cellulite processor."
[01:44:16] <Jymmmm> ejholmgren Yes you do!
[02:13:06] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/halcmd_main.c: need to exit if halcmd_startup() fails
[02:18:55] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/extensions/minigl.c: fix cut/paste oversight
[03:15:25] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/vismach.py: scrollywheel
[03:18:13] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/vismach.py: add Sphere primitive, auto-calc near, far, and distance for perspective calcs using 'size' parameter
[03:18:37] <crepincdotcom_> is CIA-8 just a bot to tell whos checking things out in CVS?
[03:18:46] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:18:47] <crepincdotcom_> ahh
[03:18:48] <cradek> no, checkins (changes)
[03:18:57] <crepincdotcom_> ahh ok
[03:19:15] <crepincdotcom_> cradek / jepler : you asked for pics the other day. here's what i've got: http://www.crepinc.com/projects/cnc-mill/
[03:19:27] <crepincdotcom_> sorry the pics are so bad, I don't own a camera so I had to borrow peoples
[03:19:40] <crepincdotcom_> oh shit, I totally need to mention EMC in there
[03:19:44] <crepincdotcom_> (editing now)
[03:19:53] <jepler> ah a 12v battery!
[03:19:57] <crepincdotcom_> :-)
[03:20:06] <crepincdotcom_> thats a SERIOUS leaad acid battery, from a huge UPS
[03:20:27] <jmkasunich> dorm room?
[03:20:30] <crepincdotcom_> but yeah it runs on battery and a laptop, I can carry this thing anywhere
[03:20:35] <crepincdotcom_> jmkasunich: yes
[03:21:08] <crepincdotcom_> I admit my mill is "ghetto", but it works
[03:21:16] <jmkasunich> it works better than mine
[03:21:26] <crepincdotcom_> how can you tell?
[03:21:32] <jmkasunich> mine doesn't work yet
[03:21:37] <crepincdotcom_> hahaha
[03:21:40] <crepincdotcom_> I guess that would do it
[03:21:48] <jmkasunich> (as a cnc - I've used it as a manual for 8? years)
[03:22:01] <crepincdotcom_> I broke a bit today :-( I need to bone up on my machining knowledge
[03:22:01] <cradek> crepincdotcom_: that's really cool
[03:22:06] <crepincdotcom_> jmkasunich: ahh ok
[03:22:07] <crepincdotcom_> thanks cradek
[03:22:14] <crepincdotcom_> wouldnt be possible without you guys :-)
[03:22:24] <cradek> the nameplate engraving looks nice
[03:22:32] <Skullworks> 2nd that
[03:23:05] <crepincdotcom_> oh cradek, I've almost finished a change to truetracer to allow offsets, in the same way you have the scale set up. This way I can truetracer "this" >file; truetracer "that" >>file
[03:23:14] <crepincdotcom_> and just edit the offsets for two words in different places
[03:23:16] <crepincdotcom_> thanks guys
[03:23:19] <jmkasunich> crepincdotcom: I've been planning to CNC my machine ever since I got it, and seriously so since I discovered EMC in 2002/2003
[03:23:28] <jmkasunich> but I only really started making progress a month or so ago
[03:23:30] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/initial-teardown-12-16-06.html
[03:23:45] <crepincdotcom_> and you've been a dev without a machine for a long time, thats funny :-)
[03:23:49] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:24:22] <jepler> first he had to write emc2 nearly singlehanded :-P
[03:24:24] <cradek> crepincdotcom_: you could assemble them by hand too (use g92 for instance)
[03:24:47] <jmkasunich> jepler: don't even say that
[03:24:48] <crepincdotcom_> oh right, I need to learn all these other G codes
[03:25:02] <crepincdotcom_> so are you three the main devs then?
[03:25:14] <jmkasunich> "main" changes over time
[03:25:19] <crepincdotcom_> jmkasunich: thats a serious mill, good luck
[03:25:45] <jepler> you can see some of the common committers shown on the left here: http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/EMC
[03:25:49] <jmkasunich> thats not really a serious mill
[03:26:07] <jmkasunich> this is my other mill (which will remain a manual) http://home.att.net/~JEKasunich/vannorman/VN_Home.htm
[03:26:25] <crepincdotcom_> not compared to big comercial ones (we have huge Haas mills we use for class), but for a home project....
[03:26:30] <jmkasunich> the shoptask is only about 600-700 lbs, the VN is 1800
[03:26:37] <crepincdotcom_> whoa
[03:27:01] <jmkasunich> bridgeports are considered the "standard" vertical mill, they're about 2200
[03:27:03] <crepincdotcom_> jepler: ahh cool
[03:27:14] <crepincdotcom_> yeah I've used a bunch of manual bridgeports
[03:27:31] <jmkasunich> the VN is strictly a 3 seasons mill though - to big to get into the basement, so its in the detached garage
[03:27:49] <crepincdotcom_> i can see that
[03:27:57] <jmkasunich> the temp has been down near 0F for the last day or two, if I touched it, I'd probably freeze to it
[03:28:14] <crepincdotcom_> yeah its been 5-10 here lately too
[03:28:25] <crepincdotcom_> (here == Worcester MA)
[03:28:27] <jmkasunich> where is here? (I'm in cleveland oh)
[03:28:30] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[03:28:33] <crepincdotcom_> :-p
[03:28:52] <cradek> 5831 messages since the first one, 2.4 years ago, for an average of 3.6 hours between messages
[03:29:12] <Skullworks> I'm coming from the other direction - I'm used to running a 22,000lb Mori-Seiki with 1280 IPM rapids...
[03:29:21] <crepincdotcom_> whoooaaa
[03:29:43] <crepincdotcom_> That's about the same rapid on the mills we use in class
[03:29:54] <Skullworks> I look at the Little X3 I'm building and wonder if I'm nuts for such a small toy.
[03:30:04] <crepincdotcom_> damn scary when the head starts heading for the vise at that speed... "OH GOD NO NOT THAT!"
[03:30:19] <crepincdotcom_> Skullworks: ehn mine is tiny, but I find I like it so small
[03:30:32] <crepincdotcom_> I mean hey, if I need it in the shop, I carry it on over there.
[03:30:33] <cradek> crepincdotcom_: what is the large gray cylinder on your couplings?
[03:30:47] <Skullworks> oh yeah - I freak them out all the time with those 3 axis rapid moves
[03:31:06] <crepincdotcom_> cradek: thats a paice of plastic I lathed that goes around the handle of the screws and connects to it with set screws
[03:31:19] <crepincdotcom_> the motors are connected to it by... rubber hose and band clamps
[03:31:20] <cradek> oh the regular handle is still in there?
[03:31:29] <crepincdotcom_> cradek: yes. I couldnt get it off
[03:31:31] <jmkasunich> so you didn't actually remove the old handles or machine the shaft ends - clever
[03:31:37] <crepincdotcom_> right
[03:31:41] <Skullworks> Mine weighs in at about 400lbs before CNC hardware
[03:31:53] <crepincdotcom_> I wanted to change the mill as little as possible, since I still wanted a mill in case I screwed up
[03:32:00] <cradek> rubber hose and hose clamps is actually a pretty good coupling I think - it's a little forgiving, but fairly stiff still
[03:32:02] <crepincdotcom_> Skullworks: ok thats still large
[03:32:16] <Skullworks> hope to build a mobile enclousure for it.
[03:32:22] <jmkasunich> large if you live in a dorm or apartment...
[03:32:28] <crepincdotcom_> true
[03:32:50] <crepincdotcom_> I guess all these terms are relative
[03:32:54] <jmkasunich> yep
[03:32:58] <crepincdotcom_> damn you all with huge basements....
[03:32:59] <cradek> is that a 2 flute or 4 flute tool?
[03:33:12] <crepincdotcom_> on my mill?
[03:33:14] <cradek> yes
[03:33:26] <cradek> it looks you cut fairly deep for no lube
[03:33:33] <crepincdotcom_> its a 1mm ball end 4 flute. its actually a peice of crap dremel tool I got at home depot that I thought i'd try
[03:33:39] <crepincdotcom_> its horrible. never again
[03:33:52] <Skullworks> I'd like to do a micro - a little circuit board router with a simple qwik change tooling.
[03:34:07] <crepincdotcom_> cradek: yeah I learned that lesson today, but a 1mm bit all the way into 1/8" Al
[03:34:16] <crepincdotcom_> *put
[03:34:22] <crepincdotcom_> ==CRACK
[03:34:30] <cradek> yep
[03:34:41] <jmkasunich> thats really annoying
[03:34:45] <crepincdotcom_> I'm going to order some PCB bits tonight if I get time
[03:34:56] <jmkasunich> especially when you bust a tool that you can't easily replace
[03:35:06] <cradek> order plenty. you'll break 'em at first
[03:35:10] <crepincdotcom_> the only thing I'm a little sad about is that I can't get a tool with a shank size larer than 1/8"
[03:35:19] <crepincdotcom_> hm, ill keep that in mind
[03:35:30] <jmkasunich> I had 2 long high-helix 1/2" endmills that would cut like crazy, and I managed to bust them both
[03:35:33] <cradek> I bet you couldn't cut with anything bigger anyway
[03:35:35] <Skullworks> sure you can get larger shanks
[03:35:50] <Skullworks> Mirco 100 makes great tools up to 1/2"
[03:35:58] <crepincdotcom_> jmkasunich: damn
[03:35:59] <cradek> I rarely use anything bigger than 1/8, and my machine is (a little) bigger
[03:36:09] <crepincdotcom_> cradek: point taken
[03:36:24] <crepincdotcom_> it would just be nice to have like a 1/2" face mill
[03:36:38] <jmkasunich> thats not a face mill ;-)
[03:36:44] <crepincdotcom_> lol, you know what i mean
[03:37:00] <crepincdotcom_> we use a 3" in class to clean up every single surface milled
[03:37:00] <cradek> sherline makes a fly cutter... but you couldn't use it with a high speed low power spindle
[03:37:13] <crepincdotcom_> yeah thats what I've got
[03:37:22] <crepincdotcom_> the hig speed low power, that is
[03:37:23] <crepincdotcom_> *high
[03:37:31] <Skullworks> make your own
[03:37:42] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ laughes
[03:37:43] <cradek> yeah you said the other day it's 20k - it's really for engraving
[03:37:55] <crepincdotcom_> that makes sense I guess
[03:37:57] <jmkasunich> my favorite tool for the VN is a 5.5" facemill
[03:37:58] <jmkasunich> http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/Facemil3.jpg
[03:38:01] <crepincdotcom_> oh well, its what I have
[03:38:10] <crepincdotcom_> damn jmkasunich thats large
[03:38:19] <Skullworks> just cut a pocket for a single insert - and cut out enough matl for balance on the far side
[03:38:23] <jmkasunich> the VN is an 1941 machine, low speed and tons of torque
[03:38:32] <jmkasunich> max spindle speed is only a little over 1000 RPM
[03:38:44] <crepincdotcom_> wow
[03:39:16] <Skullworks> love those surplused WW2 machines
[03:39:48] <jmkasunich> I paid $500 for it - and I've earned about 10x that using it
[03:39:58] <crepincdotcom_> what do you do?
[03:40:00] <Skullworks> I learned single point on a 1939 Leblond
[03:40:14] <jmkasunich> my day job is an electrical engineer
[03:40:22] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ is doing EE homework as we speak...
[03:40:24] <jmkasunich> but I've done some machining on the side - to finance my hobbies
[03:40:31] <crepincdotcom_> thats sweet
[03:41:47] <Skullworks> * Skullworks studied since before jr high to be a machinist so he could make his own toys, but it seems he makes toys for everyone else.
[03:41:58] <crepincdotcom_> :-(
[03:42:03] <crepincdotcom_> as a job, or just favors?
[03:42:09] <Skullworks> both
[03:42:20] <crepincdotcom_> part of a company, or individually?
[03:42:45] <ejholmgren> crepincdotcom_: where are you going to school at?
[03:42:59] <crepincdotcom_> Worcester Polytechnic Institute
[03:42:59] <crepincdotcom_> wpi.edu
[03:43:00] <Skullworks> day jod is as one of 4 setup leads at a good size mfg plant
[03:43:09] <crepincdotcom_> Skullworks: oh ok
[03:43:22] <crepincdotcom_> ejholmgren: why do you ask?
[03:43:58] <Skullworks> mainly lathe, but I have alot more exp in high speed milling.
[03:44:33] <crepincdotcom_> the only experience I have is the CNC class Im taking this term. it shows... but at least I'm learning quickly
[03:44:57] <Skullworks> go to tool shows
[03:45:00] <ejholmgren> crepincdotcom_: it's a matter of national security
[03:45:05] <crepincdotcom_> lol ejholmgren
[03:45:10] <Skullworks> just watch the machines run
[03:45:13] <ejholmgren> was just wondering
[03:45:21] <ejholmgren> I'm starting EE sometime in the next year
[03:45:23] <crepincdotcom_> Skullworks: that sounds like a great idea actually. I have to look up some around here
[03:45:35] <crepincdotcom_> ejholmgren: ahh cool :-P Im ECE and CS
[03:45:45] <Skullworks> you will learn all sorts of tricks book never bother to detail.
[03:45:56] <crepincdotcom_> sounds awsome
[03:46:00] <ejholmgren> art degree didn't quite pan out monentarily ;)
[03:46:09] <crepincdotcom_> haha it happens
[03:46:15] <crepincdotcom_> where are you looking?
[03:46:35] <ejholmgren> University of Minnesota
[03:47:09] <ejholmgren> just taking calc classes at a community college for the time being though
[03:47:10] <crepincdotcom_> you from around there?
[03:47:14] <ejholmgren> yes
[03:47:16] <crepincdotcom_> ah ok
[03:47:18] <Skullworks> OK got a question for you EE types.
[03:47:31] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ perks up
[03:47:43] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich hides
[03:47:46] <crepincdotcom_> lol
[03:49:05] <Skullworks> if I paralleled 2 L298's using the H-bridges for a servo amp - would I need to put in a current sense resistor
[03:49:20] <Skullworks> most designs I've seen don't have one.
[03:49:46] <crepincdotcom_> well, the one time I used the 298 without the resistor, it didnt work
[03:49:57] <crepincdotcom_> however, I cant tell you whether that was something stupid I did, or otherwise
[03:50:01] <cradek> depends whether you want to sense the current or not
[03:50:20] <crepincdotcom_> are you palnning to use the chopper?
[03:50:30] <crepincdotcom_> (youre linking with a 297 I assume?)
[03:50:43] <Skullworks> so short to ground is OK if your not trying to limit the current?
[03:50:56] <crepincdotcom_> thats what the doc says as I recall
[03:51:00] <crepincdotcom_> its in the app note
[03:51:18] <Skullworks> not a 297 - that would be a stepper controller
[03:51:27] <crepincdotcom_> what are you controlling?
[03:51:52] <Skullworks> I want to use the H-bridge for a servo amp
[03:52:05] <cradek> what are you going to drive it with? pwm from emc2?
[03:52:11] <crepincdotcom_> ah
[03:52:23] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ brb
[03:52:23] <Skullworks> for like a Globe motor #21
[03:52:56] <Skullworks> or a Pittman 14203
[03:53:26] <Skullworks> well I was hoping to try your Pluto driver
[03:54:03] <cradek> ok you don't need current sense then
[03:54:12] <Skullworks> right now I'm toying with many different things
[03:54:44] <Skullworks> I focus on Machine trade and dropped all electric study about 1980
[03:55:16] <Skullworks> have alot of catching up, and even the basics are fuzzy after so long
[03:55:30] <ejholmgren> too much acid?
[03:55:39] <crepincdotcom_> lol
[03:55:42] <Skullworks> to much OT
[03:56:12] <ejholmgren> amen
[03:56:27] <ejholmgren> * ejholmgren pops his blue collar
[03:56:53] <Skullworks> there was a 3 year period from 95-98 where my shortest week was over 100hrs
[03:57:01] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ wants thevenin equivelents to get off his to0do list
[03:57:08] <crepincdotcom_> Skullworks: thats insane
[03:57:29] <Skullworks> thats why I quit the trade for a few years
[03:57:55] <ejholmgren> O_o
[03:58:00] <Skullworks> Took a cushy job at Gateway Comp corp.
[03:58:07] <ejholmgren> how did you not die?
[03:58:22] <Skullworks> then that all went offshore...:{
[03:58:54] <Skullworks> I was a zombie
[03:59:21] <Skullworks> everything was falling apart - so I got out of it.
[03:59:36] <crepincdotcom_> whered you go then?
[04:00:15] <Skullworks> Now I'm back in again - but not doing tool & die work, or job quotes, or much programing.
[04:00:34] <jepler> goodnight all
[04:00:36] <Skullworks> I just do the setups and push the green button
[04:00:47] <crepincdotcom_> night jepler
[04:01:45] <Skullworks> so cradek - is there any write up on the pluto or just the driver?
[04:09:35] <tomp> crepincdotcom: i just looked at your capacitor array spark experiments, thats a hoot!
[04:09:45] <crepincdotcom_> :-)
[04:09:47] <crepincdotcom_> yah it is
[04:10:10] <crepincdotcom_> quick easy fun at least
[04:11:11] <tomp> be careful charging those big arrays, a lot of caps can look like a dead short to a charger
[04:11:29] <crepincdotcom_> yah, we melted 3 power resistors today
[04:11:32] <crepincdotcom_> gotta get some bigger ones
[04:11:43] <crepincdotcom_> its hard finding resistors to handle that kind of power
[04:12:05] <jmkasunich> just use higher value and wait a little longer for the charge
[04:12:26] <crepincdotcom_> we had a 30 ohm... it puts about 2.8kw across the resistor
[04:12:36] <crepincdotcom_> jmkasunich: yeah I know.... but it's boring waiting 20 mintues for it to charge
[04:12:46] <jmkasunich> how many uF do you have?
[04:12:53] <crepincdotcom_> uhh let me count
[04:13:34] <crepincdotcom_> 144000 uF
[04:13:40] <crepincdotcom_> 300v
[04:13:44] <jmkasunich> wow
[04:13:47] <crepincdotcom_> mmhm
[04:13:55] <tomp> Twingy: I'll try to build it again & try now,last nights build wasnt too fun, i couldnt get the simple D shape to work at all ( only had 1 level, tho 5 would fit in the depth )
[04:14:22] <Twingy> the D won't work until the next release
[04:14:30] <Twingy> I fixed that problem on saturday
[04:14:36] <crepincdotcom_> so the resistorts tend to catch fire... one of these days Ill break down and buy a huge aircore resistor
[04:14:56] <tomp> jmkasunich: look at crepincdotcom's vids, lotsa energy
[04:15:03] <crepincdotcom_> :-)
[04:15:11] <tomp> Twingy: cool thanks, will try the demo shapes tonight
[04:15:15] <jmkasunich> 16 * 1500uF = 2400uF, thats the 300 volts ones
[04:15:20] <jmkasunich> the 150s are in series/parallel
[04:15:31] <crepincdotcom_> right, so theres some strange math there
[04:15:50] <jmkasunich> 2 in series at 15000uF = 7500uF per pair, times 4 pairs = 30000uF
[04:15:53] <jmkasunich> total 54000
[04:16:03] <crepincdotcom_> its not a full 300v at 144000uF for charge/discharge
[04:16:13] <crepincdotcom_> ^^ there we go
[04:17:07] <jmkasunich> still pretty good energy
[04:17:12] <crepincdotcom_> yah
[04:17:40] <jmkasunich> for comparison, a 1000 horsepower AC drive uses 32400uF
[04:17:57] <jmkasunich> that is at 800V rated, 650-700V operating though
[04:18:12] <crepincdotcom_> what do you mean uses? you mean the filter caps?
[04:18:11] <jmkasunich> still - you are playing with the big boys ;-)
[04:18:16] <jmkasunich> yes
[04:18:18] <crepincdotcom_> ahh ok
[04:18:30] <crepincdotcom_> yeah, its not something you want to put your tongue on
[04:18:41] <crepincdotcom_> thats how I gauge most objects
[04:18:46] <jmkasunich> lol
[04:18:47] <crepincdotcom_> "would i put my tongue on this?"
[04:18:55] <tomp> what size charging resitors ( ohms, watts )
[04:19:07] <crepincdotcom_> 30 ohm 10 watt... thats what we melted tonight
[04:19:21] <crepincdotcom_> then went to 300 ohm 5 watt, melted the coating off that but it still worked
[04:19:45] <jmkasunich> on that 32400uF 700V drive, we're charging from 3-phase 480V, and we use six 47 ohm 300W resistors, two in parallel per phase
[04:20:17] <jmkasunich> you definitely need bigger resistors ;-)
[04:20:33] <crepincdotcom_> where can I get some that size, and are they resonably priced?
[04:20:37] <tomp> jmkasunich: what about the old light bulb trick? big flood lamps are 100 watt and enuf would get him 30 ohm ( and you can watch the discharge there too )
[04:20:52] <jmkasunich> actually thats an _excellent_ idea
[04:21:00] <crepincdotcom_> tomp: we thought of that tonight, gonna test it tomorrow.
[04:21:02] <jmkasunich> use three 120V bulbs in series for 300V
[04:21:13] <crepincdotcom_> yah, should work well
[04:21:33] <crepincdotcom_> those can handle the wattage?
[04:21:36] <jmkasunich> even better, as it charges and the lights get dimmer, the resistance drops and the last bit of charging goes faster
[04:21:37] <tomp> thats an old cheap edm machine idea from popular science circa 1960
[04:21:45] <crepincdotcom_> sweet
[04:22:10] <Skullworks> also a safe way to reform capacitors
[04:22:17] <crepincdotcom_> reform?
[04:22:24] <jmkasunich> crepincdotcom: yeah, they can handle the wattage - they are rated for 120V, so as long as the voltage across them is 120 or less, they will never allow more current thru than they can handle
[04:22:50] <Skullworks> never heard of reforming caps?
[04:22:58] <crepincdotcom_> jmkasunich: ah right
[04:23:00] <crepincdotcom_> Skullworks: nope i havent
[04:23:26] <jmkasunich> just be careful with that thing....
[04:23:33] <Skullworks> its a must do when using new old stock units up towards there upper limit
[04:24:02] <crepincdotcom_> it just conditions the caps?
[04:24:21] <Skullworks> the electrolite disovles the Aluminum oxide in the caps
[04:24:24] <jmkasunich> our drives use low inductance laminated bus for the caps - basically sheets of 1/8" copper with thin insulation between the two plates
[04:24:44] <crepincdotcom_> wow
[04:24:55] <jmkasunich> I've seen ones that had insulation failure - it looks like the 1/8" copper plate was shot with a 20mm cannon - hole blasted clean thru it
[04:25:06] <crepincdotcom_> thats insane
[04:25:17] <Skullworks> you need to raise the voltage slowly and it causes the Al oxide to build up again without causing a short
[04:25:22] <jmkasunich> thats about the same stored energy as you are working with - so be carefull
[04:25:34] <crepincdotcom_> yah, we try to
[04:25:40] <tomp> hey, try some old tv flyback coils if you want cheap sparks :) ( and holes thru your thumb nails, beware! )
[04:25:44] <crepincdotcom_> though we DO do more stupid things then you guys, at least probably...
[04:25:54] <crepincdotcom_> lol tomp
[04:26:18] <Skullworks> it the cap shorts during reform - instead of exploding - the energy gets dumped in the lightbulb
[04:26:38] <crepincdotcom_> thats helpful
[04:26:45] <tomp> yes, it worked that way in edm, kind of a safety circuit
[04:27:53] <jmkasunich> crepincdotcom: this is the kind of laminated bus I was talking about: http://www.eldre.com/power/igbt%20ex.asp
[04:28:32] <crepincdotcom_> oh wow
[04:28:34] <crepincdotcom_> thats big
[04:30:17] <tomp> don lancaster, of ttl cookbook fame, wrote up the light bulb edm spark generator http://www.tinaja.com/glib/hack63.pdf ( actually famous for 'the idiot bastard son of cmos cookbook' )
[04:30:35] <crepincdotcom_> TTL ftw :-)
[04:31:02] <Skullworks> here is a little write up on cap reforming - http://www.vmars.org.uk/capacitor_reforming.htm
[04:31:06] <crepincdotcom_> ahh thanks
[04:31:39] <Skullworks> and a second one - http://home.insightbb.com/~stephenwmoore/Electronics/Reform.htm
[04:32:21] <crepincdotcom_> k
[04:38:48] <A-L-P-H-A> tomp, haven't looked hard at the article you just posted... just wondering if that could be wired up to some wire?
[04:39:42] <A-L-P-H-A> wire-edm.
[04:40:25] <tomp> yeh, thats the easy part, keeping it at exactly the right distance from the stock as the stock goes away is the difficult part, an error of .0002" when the gap is .002" is enuf to destroy the process
[04:45:39] <A-L-P-H-A> i see.
[04:51:11] <Skullworks> Would love to build a wire Edm... but thats a long way down the road.
[04:52:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I think of it, as... if I really need something done to that precision, I'd go pay for it. everything else is a hobby to me. :)
[04:54:05] <tomp> jmkasunich: last nite i was looking at chopper drive for electric bike motors, and came across this. which is cheaper than the parts i could find for 450 watts any opinion ? http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200321345_200321345
[04:54:28] <tomp> A-L-P-H-A: cheap wedm is 45$/hr
[04:54:39] <A-L-P-H-A> that is actually fairly cheap.
[04:54:52] <jmkasunich> tomp: no clue
[04:54:59] <tomp> k
[04:55:02] <Skullworks> $45 is a bargan
[04:56:14] <tomp> tomp thinks about going into biz with www.cheap-wedm.com
[04:58:33] <A-L-P-H-A> tomp... hurry register that domain. ;)
[04:58:43] <A-L-P-H-A> make millions of monopoly money. :)
[04:59:45] <Skullworks> ever price out what about 3 palet loads of wire cost?
[05:00:57] <Skullworks> lucky it gets a good scrap price after use.
[05:01:55] <tomp> clean brass sells back well
[05:02:25] <tomp> it's like renting it :)
[05:03:49] <tomp> you guys ever use emachineshop.com? that's like the cheap-wedm idea but they give a cool cad system for free
[05:05:12] <tomp> use thier cad system, tell them how many, they quote you in a few minutes.. they job out all the work but have a big network of shops they farm out to
[05:09:32] <Skullworks> I'm familure with it.
[05:09:40] <Skullworks> pricey
[05:10:24] <tomp> at 20 or 30 pcs not bad, at 1 to 4... expensive
[05:10:37] <Skullworks> but if you need a proto done good and fast they have great options to be able to get it done on time.
[05:11:04] <tomp> right
[05:12:28] <tomp> you can spec which machines does what detail, and fiddling from a mill to a drill press is a good trick to lower cost ( tho you get another setup charge ), also lathe is cheaper than mill...
[05:18:53] <K`zan> Shame it does't put out a file you can use in EMC :-).
[05:19:13] <K`zan> And, of course, it has to be run under wincrap :-/.
[05:20:13] <Skullworks> Someday there will be a good CAD/CAM option under linux, but it won't be soon.
[05:20:48] <Skullworks> though I do have an idea in that area
[05:29:37] <tomp> Twingy: i use the hex demo in the tutorial, but the output gcode is... barely 12 lines, not the path seen on gcam screen. http://imagebin.org/7166
[05:30:29] <Twingy> tomp, I just posted another release
[05:30:36] <Twingy> tomp, go download and try your tests
[05:30:52] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/scaragui.py: 3D simulation model for SCARA robots
[05:31:03] <Twingy> tomp, manual is out of date, it will be updated over next week or two
[05:31:24] <tomp> k will do now, thanks
[05:31:26] <Twingy> there's even a disclaimer on the manual page
[05:33:02] <tomp> Twingy: I make a flame detector for edm, i got a hell of a disclaimer, i claim it wont work and cant be trusted :) ( i cant afford lawyers)
[05:33:11] <K`zan> Skullworks: THat is what keeps me from all this, running wincrap is just too offensive anymore :-(.
[05:33:23] <K`zan> Night all, long day and I'm gonna splat :-).
[05:33:32] <tomp> nite
[05:39:03] <Skullworks> there is some obsolete DOS CAD/CAM sourcecode in C
[05:39:24] <Skullworks> circa 92 or so
[05:39:48] <Skullworks> I'm thinking of making an offere to buy it
[05:40:30] <tomp> Twingy: thats for windows! i just wiped 20070202 of my system to prepare a new dir & i see its for windows, sorry cant test it :(
[05:40:52] <tomp> i wondered why it was a zip file :(
[05:41:06] <Skullworks> problem is it used a graphics package that it got a license for
[05:41:41] <tomp> the old cadcam engine from software toolworks ?
[05:41:49] <Skullworks> so likely have to write our own display driver
[05:41:57] <tomp> it was a nice library
[05:42:00] <Skullworks> yeah
[05:42:12] <Skullworks> not toolworks
[05:42:43] <Skullworks> but a nice little DOS package
[05:42:48] <Skullworks> in C
[05:43:21] <Skullworks> think it would port nicely if a graphics or OpenGL driver can be adapted
[05:44:56] <Skullworks> once ported - many of the DOS limits that caused its abandondment in favor of a WinBlozs rewrite could be easily fixed.
[05:45:15] <tomp> Twingy: i found the src tarball, i can build that, sorry i freaked
[05:46:22] <tomp> what did it use, the old borland c graphics?
[05:48:06] <Skullworks> don't recall exactly - except that they licensed some graphics driver that gave true 640x480x16color graphics in DOS.
[05:48:32] <Skullworks> and that module was compiled into the .exe
[05:48:50] <Skullworks> thats would be the problem
[05:49:08] <crepincdotcom_> night all, i gotta get to sleep.... I have to be able to keep the chuck OUT of the vise tomorrow morning at 9 ;-)
[05:49:14] <jmkasunich> good idea
[05:49:17] <Skullworks> seperate the graphics from the app
[05:49:29] <jmkasunich> I was up till 6:30 this morning - I'm too old for that crap
[05:49:38] <crepincdotcom_> haha
[05:49:55] <jmkasunich> goodnight all
[05:50:00] <crepincdotcom_> im too YOUNG for that.... thinking and mornings dont go well for me
[05:50:02] <Skullworks> nite
[05:50:01] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ &
[05:50:03] <tomp> nite
[05:51:05] <Skullworks> anyway - if I can get the source released for the app - then there are others that can build on it
[05:53:11] <tomp> Skullworks: is it a big investment?
[05:53:52] <Skullworks> I'm still trying to hook up with the original owner.
[05:53:57] <LawrenceG> crepincdotcom: are you still looking for high powere resistors?
[05:54:20] <Skullworks> but I do have someone who will do the introduction at some point
[05:54:45] <Skullworks> I have not made an offer yet.
[05:55:43] <Skullworks> don't know if he cares to sell - but it is a stale product which has not been on the market for 12 years
[05:56:12] <Skullworks> so I can't see why he would not take an offer
[05:56:19] <tomp> cool, i met the guy who wrote APT an early cad system, and he's trying to sell it again, it was very powerful. we used to rent time on big systems and use teletypes as terminals, not gui at all
[05:56:48] <Skullworks> its not making him money as is
[05:56:54] <Skullworks> I know of APT
[05:57:29] <Skullworks> most early CAD/CAM was a false front for an APT backend
[05:57:33] <DanielFalck> check this out for open source version:
[05:57:34] <DanielFalck> http://sourceforge.net/projects/aptos
[05:57:44] <Skullworks> yes, very powerful
[05:58:01] <tomp> right, yes, there's not been any files for aptos yet
[05:58:28] <Skullworks> APT been public domain for years, since it was funded via USAF
[05:58:36] <DanielFalck> I talked the author into letting me try it out last year
[05:59:02] <tomp> really? pd ? where's the source luke :)
[05:59:18] <DanielFalck> browse CVS
[05:59:35] <DanielFalck> http://aptos.cvs.sourceforge.net/aptos/
[06:00:14] <DanielFalck> he gave me a tarball and I had to do a lot of tweaking to get it to work
[06:00:37] <tomp> DanielFalck: thanks, (the last remark was for Skullworks, sorry for the crosstalk )
[06:00:58] <tomp> wow!
[06:01:07] <tomp> on cvs now...
[06:01:24] <DanielFalck> original APT code is there
[06:01:44] <DanielFalck> fortran
[06:02:17] <DanielFalck> it's pretty amazing stuff
[06:02:46] <tomp> DanielFalck: i see a lot moved into cpp, and did you met mr Crochet?
[06:02:52] <Skullworks> In the early 2x editions of Machinery's Handbook there were huge writeup on APT
[06:03:22] <DanielFalck> I have his email on another computer in the garage
[06:03:54] <DanielFalck> is it on sourceforge (his email)?
[06:04:09] <DanielFalck> if it is, tell him you're interested
[06:04:23] <tomp> right: we used MDSI (an APT server in michigan ) on teletypes, and sometimes flexiwriters, all apt no crt
[06:04:41] <DanielFalck> I was able to get some simple milling programs written with it
[06:04:50] <Skullworks> oooo old school
[06:05:09] <DanielFalck> but I think he was working on pocketing last time I heard
[06:05:22] <tomp> DanielFalck: i'm just interested, but not ready to do business, or bother him, thanks
[06:05:28] <Skullworks> nothing like using a Sperry Univac over a 300 baud modem on a teltype.
[06:06:10] <DanielFalck> time to go. talk to you guys later
[06:06:13] <Skullworks> nite
[06:06:23] <tomp> nite, thanks
[06:09:35] <tomp> there was work being done on aptos in Sept 2006! i thought it was just gathering dust. apt is a very logical way to describe geometry. i still have 'personal apt' for dos, oughta try that on wine, it has some gui to it.( line circle circle , choose intersection above,left... )
[06:13:02] <tomp> aptos has graphics! http://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=85596 this is slicker than personal apt!
[06:14:00] <tomp> sorry, the grfx was a rendering of the output in qcad.... still pretty workable, we could use axis as the 'plotter'
[06:14:12] <crepincdotcom> LawrenceG: yes
[06:14:35] <crepincdotcom> why do you ask?
[06:16:07] <LawrenceG> crepincdotcom: well... one thing I have used is the electric range elements. They are basically 240volt resistors up to about 2800watts depending on big or small element...
[06:16:21] <crepincdotcom> ahh good idea
[06:16:27] <crepincdotcom> have to find an old stove to nab some from
[06:16:28] <LawrenceG> cheap... they are laying all over the dump
[06:16:33] <crepincdotcom> good point
[06:16:48] <crepincdotcom> others suggested lightbulbs which is also a great idea
[06:16:50] <crepincdotcom> thanks a lot
[06:17:21] <crepincdotcom> ok i gotta sleep so that i dont break a $20k mill tomorrow morning
[06:17:22] <crepincdotcom> night all
[06:17:26] <LawrenceG> they have easy connections.... if you find an old stove, grab the socket with the element and garb a few feet of high temp wire
[06:17:31] <Skullworks> nite
[06:17:34] <tomp> nite
[06:17:42] <LawrenceG> nitey night
[06:17:56] <tomp> LawrenceG: gonna save that idea, thanks
[06:18:19] <LawrenceG> cheers...
[06:18:25] <LawrenceG> cheers
[06:22:46] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.51 ( * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[06:24:44] <tomp> re aptos, some of the postprocessors are in python! a post is the tool that translates generic cnc information into what a specific machine tool requires
[06:51:12] <tomp> Twingy: new version does lots more that 2 days ago, you been working hard!
[06:56:23] <tomp> ok, for anyone interested in this aptos srcs... step 1
[06:57:02] <tomp> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@aptos.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aptos login when asked for pswd, just press enter
[06:57:26] <tomp> step2 cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@aptos.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aptos co -P aptos
[06:57:47] <tomp> step3 cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@aptos.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aptos co -P apt360
[06:58:11] <tomp> step4 cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@aptos.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/aptos co -P postp
[06:59:48] <tomp> step5: figger out what it's all about & coax it into compiling, goto library and get dusty old books on BCL to APT , then jazz it up with mouse driven interface & build a set of emc2 posts
[07:01:10] <tomp> good nite all, thanks again
[07:35:41] <Skullworks> time to z out here
[07:52:05] <anonimasu> hm
[08:19:39] <Dallur> hmmf just found an interesting article in the january linux journal about real-time multithreaded programming on linux, interesting read
[08:30:16] <Jymmm> Don't you believe everythign you rea din that magazine =)
[09:04:59] <anonimasu> morning
[09:14:08] <anonimasu> chinamill: http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/showgallery.php/ppuser/1117/cat/500
[09:46:42] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: awake?
[09:47:22] <alex_joni> anonimasu: long asleep
[09:47:43] <anonimasu> hm
[09:47:50] <anonimasu> im curious on the puma stuff
[09:48:13] <anonimasu> does it work?
[09:50:47] <anonimasu> hey robin
[09:54:32] <alex_joni> anonimasu: puma.. not 100%
[09:54:36] <alex_joni> but scara works great
[09:55:00] <anonimasu> 3hm ok
[09:55:11] <alex_joni> puma has a problem with the inverse kins
[09:55:23] <anonimasu> ok
[09:55:28] <anonimasu> I guess it'll be worked out soon right?
[09:55:34] <alex_joni> forward works great though
[09:55:40] <alex_joni> so you can jog joints :P
[09:55:44] <anonimasu> heeh
[09:56:00] <anonimasu> im thinking about a project for later on
[09:56:00] <alex_joni> guess you can do that even without kins.. but at least you get a nice display :P
[10:02:07] <anonimasu> 3http://www.mines.edu/academic/courses/math_cs/macs370/FinalReports02/Robot2/Client%20Report.html
[10:10:21] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/scaragui.py: fix? refresh problem
[10:11:04] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/Submakefile: install scaragui.py
[10:12:01] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/bin/.cvsignore: ignore built scaragui
[10:12:46] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/scara/scara_sim_4.hal: load scaragui, and link it to the joints
[10:17:01] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/scaragui.py: not what I meant..
[10:28:00] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/scara/scara.ini: some decent joint limits for scara
[11:07:14] <paragon36> Morning
[11:10:10] <paragon36> Could some tell me what the version name of the Ubuntu EMC2 Live cd is? ie Dapper, Edgy, Feisty ... etc etc The /etc/debian_version shows > "testing/unstable"
[11:12:04] <alex_joni> dapper
[11:12:41] <alex_joni> check /etc/lsb-release
[11:12:53] <alex_joni> DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu
[11:12:53] <alex_joni> DISTRIB_RELEASE=6.06
[11:12:53] <alex_joni> DISTRIB_CODENAME=dapper
[11:12:53] <alex_joni> DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 6.06.1 LTS"
[11:13:59] <paragon36> Lovely ... Thanks Alex!
[11:15:26] <alex_joni> I think /etc/lsb-release is a linux standard, /etc/debian_version is debian specific
[11:15:39] <alex_joni> and Ubuntu is based on some testing debian
[11:18:24] <paragon36> Yes I think your right Alex. I have never needed to find the name before now. I mostly prefer Redhat / Fedora or at least thats what I used more often.. /etc/redhat-release
[12:35:27] <fenn> alex_joni: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2006/08/30/seamlessdisplay_triplemonitor/
[12:42:48] <alex_joni> fenn: oooh
[12:46:00] <alex_joni> fenn: too bad it's so fscking expensive
[12:47:01] <fenn> you can get the same effect with multiple projectors on a curved screen
[12:47:12] <fenn> but that's a little unwieldy
[12:47:14] <alex_joni> http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2007/02/02/romania_gates_piracy_good/ <- this seems to increase every day in negativeness
[12:54:43] <anonimasu> wrnog place
[12:56:35] <paragon36> Hello All
[12:57:37] <paragon36> I have an off topic question regarding impedance can I ask away?
[12:59:35] <alex_joni> sure
[13:00:04] <jepler> hi all
[13:00:24] <alex_joni> hi jeff
[13:00:39] <paragon36> could explain to me how to find the impedance of a half-bridge inverter. Additionaly if anyone could assist in explaining how to calculated the inductance required for an l-match network that would help also : Here is what I am trying to achieve ... http://richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html
[13:00:50] <paragon36> Hi jepler
[13:02:13] <paragon36> Sorry :- http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html
[13:03:40] <alex_joni> same one
[13:04:37] <paragon36> Yes it is I was not sure if the first one worked as I typed it in by hand and forgot www.
[13:05:51] <jepler> that question's beyond me. I know that the on resistance (Rds_on) is on datasheets, but I don't believe that's what you're looking for
[13:06:36] <tomp> Supersize Your TV for $300: Build Your Own XGA Projector http://www.geardigest.com/2004/11/13/supersize_your_tv_for_/
[13:07:42] <A-L-P-H-A> freak'n -26°C outside. :( http://theweathernetwork.ca/weather/cities/can/Pages/CAON0538.htm
[13:08:03] <tomp> rip the lcd off old notebook, or desktop lcd, mount on optical overhead projector, pretty good results
[13:08:21] <paragon36> I am trying to match the inverter impedance to the load (parallel tuned circuit LC) via a series inductor (used to match the impendance).
[13:10:04] <paragon36> tomp: I like it :-)
[13:12:00] <tomp> A-L-P-H-A: much warmer here west of Chicago, -23 C ( -10 F), gotta go coax the old honda to wake up
[13:12:22] <A-L-P-H-A> it sucks.
[13:12:34] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm kinda dreading dinner tomorrow night with the gf... so cold.
[13:12:47] <A-L-P-H-A> i'd rather stay home, and watch a movie and have pizza delivered. hehe
[13:14:30] <erDiZz> last winter we had two weeks below -30 in Moscow
[13:14:46] <erDiZz> and then they talk about the Global Warming
[13:14:58] <A-L-P-H-A> erDiZz, that was a few weeks ago here in Toronto
[13:16:33] <erDiZz> That's pretty uncommon here. They told it was the coldest winter for several decades.
[13:17:51] <alex_joni> I don't think global warming is correct
[13:18:07] <alex_joni> but weather is getting more extreme
[13:18:11] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni... you are kidding me right?
[13:18:20] <alex_joni> warm season is getting warmer, cold season is getting colder
[13:18:23] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: not kidding
[13:18:44] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll give you the extremes.
[13:18:44] <alex_joni> it's also very fast switching from warm to cold.. (we had drops of 30C in 2 days)
[13:18:57] <erDiZz> maybe. But this time we had _no snow_ for the new year's day! :)
[13:19:13] <A-L-P-H-A> but the data shows clearly, that global warming is occuring as a whole planet.
[13:19:13] <erDiZz> can't remember such a case for all my life
[13:21:31] <A-L-P-H-A> wow... in 1840, toronto had no raid for like 4 months straight. wow.
[13:21:43] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/climate_normals/results_e.html?Province=ALL&StationName=toronto&SearchType=BeginsWith&LocateBy=Province&Proximity=25&ProximityFrom=City&StationNumber=&IDType=MSC&CityName=&ParkName=&LatitudeDegrees=&LatitudeMinutes=&LongitudeDegrees=&LongitudeMinutes=&NormalsClass=A&SelNormals=&StnId=5051&
[13:22:06] <erDiZz> the link shows they're trying to hide this :)
[13:47:03] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: make scarakins link on non-build systems including sim
[14:28:10] <lerman> alex_joni: Have you seen my latest screed? (on the developers list)
[14:39:00] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/kinematics/scarakins.c: make inverse kins work: calculations on D6 were wrong
[14:39:01] <fenn> paragon36: i think you are wanting to know the stray inductance and capacitance of the inverter circuit? which mostly has to be measured
[14:39:49] <fenn> because it comes from the physical circuit arrangement
[15:01:23] <jtr> Does anyone know if the Motenc driver supports the encoder index pulse?
[15:03:36] <jtr> I would assume it does, but that's not always safe...
[15:03:41] <cradek> yes it does in EMC2.1
[15:05:24] <jtr> Ok, thanks. Trying to help out Javier.
[15:06:53] <jepler> what do you mean, not always safe?
[15:20:29] <alex_joni> jepler: assuming is not safe.. I think he meant
[15:33:14] <jtr> what alex_joni said.
[15:47:06] <jepler> oh I understand now
[15:58:08] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz. top gear is back on!!! :D
[15:58:50] <A-L-P-H-A> Where you producing when, Hammond and May were on?
[16:11:12] <paragon36> fenn: Just seen your reply. Not to sure what you mean, Sorry. According to the article at http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html it mentions that the inverter impedance needs to match the load impedance and an L-Match network is used to accomplish this. I am having issues where the current drawn through the inverter is to high for a given voltage. I need to limit the current drawn so as...
[16:11:13] <paragon36> ...to max of approx 7 amp at 360V gives about 2.5KW power.
[16:12:35] <paragon36> That 360Vdc switched.
[16:15:46] <fenn> so you just want to increase the inductance of the heating coil?
[16:15:56] <crepincdotcom_> ok, who can suggest a good site to get small endmills. I need several, max shaft diameter 1/8"
[16:16:09] <fenn> crepincdotcom: harborfreight.com
[16:16:18] <crepincdotcom_> thanks
[16:16:30] <fenn> if you are cheap like me
[16:16:50] <crepincdotcom_> ;-)
[16:16:56] <fenn> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34640
[16:17:12] <crepincdotcom_> aha
[16:17:15] <crepincdotcom_> thats sweet
[16:17:36] <fenn> no ball end mills though
[16:17:45] <cradek> are those end mills or drills?
[16:17:46] <crepincdotcom_> are they all square end?
[16:18:03] <fenn> mostly drills actually, but there are some endmills too
[16:18:15] <fenn> they're all square end yes
[16:18:20] <crepincdotcom_> thanks
[16:18:28] <cradek> maybe they are used resharpened PCB drills
[16:18:45] <crepincdotcom_> for $13 I'm willing to try them
[16:18:57] <paragon36> Fenn: I cant change the eating coil as it has an inductance value for the tuned circuit to resonate at 150khz. I think I need to find a value for the l-match inductor to present the same impendance as the inverter.
[16:19:28] <fenn> whenever people start talking about impedance matching i get confused
[16:20:09] <fenn> what happens if you dont match the two?
[16:20:37] <paragon36> Yeah me two :-) Not to worry I have posted question to sci.electronics.design ... plus this is off topic ;-)
[16:20:49] <SWPadnos> the most efficient power transfer occurs when the source and load impedances are matched
[16:21:01] <paragon36> Yes ...
[16:21:05] <SWPadnos> other than that, I get a headache as well ;)
[16:21:08] <fenn> where does it go otherwise?
[16:21:16] <SWPadnos> some gets reflected back to the source
[16:21:41] <paragon36> And it blows the fets etc etc
[16:22:25] <SWPadnos> it's the same thing as the DC experiment where you have a battery + source resistance driving a load resistance. the best you can do is get 1/2 the power into the load, and that happens when the two resistances are the same
[16:23:59] <SWPadnos> (but don't listen to me - I didn't like the classes on AC systems and power transmission, so I usually didn't listen (or even show up) )
[16:26:31] <paragon36> I think the parallel tuned circuit presents a low impedance to the inverter at its tuned resonance which looks like a short so current goes through the roof. According to Richie Burnett his inverter is around 10 ohms but I do not know how he got to that figure. The L-match network presents the tuned heating cap/coil (LC) as a 10 ohm load to the inverter so it is impedance matched. Well thats...
[16:26:33] <paragon36> ...what I think anyway ;-)
[16:26:59] <SWPadnos> you go guy!
[16:27:50] <paragon36> lol
[16:33:36] <crepincdotcom_> whats a good source of bits for PCB milling?
[16:33:52] <crepincdotcom_> I need bits down to like 5 mils of possible
[16:33:55] <crepincdotcom_> *if
[16:34:25] <SWPadnos> thinktink.com seems to have them down to 0.006
[16:34:37] <crepincdotcom_> Im looking on that site now
[16:34:59] <crepincdotcom_> under which category are those? smallest in the "chip breaker" type is 0.05
[16:35:06] <SWPadnos> http://www.precisebits.com/
[16:35:15] <crepincdotcom_> ahh
[16:35:40] <SWPadnos> ah yes - down to 0.003
[16:37:35] <A-L-P-H-A> something interesting... http://photos1.blogger.com/photoInclude/blogger/6858/1116/1600/1198gottfred_table.gif take it with a grain of salt.
[16:41:13] <skunkworks> I get a consistant .007 isolation with the thinktink bits. they are very nice.
[16:41:22] <skunkworks> without really trying
[16:41:42] <crepincdotcom_> LOL at precisebits.com
[16:41:50] <crepincdotcom_> "move cursor to stop annoying tumbling"
[16:52:49] <jepler> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/pcb
[16:53:00] <jepler> "The outlines around the traces are cut with a 60 degree carbide V tool"
[16:54:36] <jepler> http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/mechmill.htm
[16:54:43] <jepler> ^^^ these are the bits cradek uses
[16:55:37] <cradek> those tiny end mills are just an expensive way to make a little snapping noise
[17:01:17] <lerman> paragon36: Are you building an induction heater? I could use a small one for some brass fittings I currently solder in a convection oven.
[17:06:03] <paragon36> lerman: Im trying to ;-) I have managed to heat a piece of steel 1" in dia to aprox 500C thus far but am having trouble with zero switching the fets and current draw. I am employing a PLL to lock onto the tuned resonant tank freq with the hope that it will follow the res freq as it changes due to heat and the currie efect. The PLL drives an H-bridge (inverter) the idea being is to drive the...
[17:06:06] <paragon36> ...tank circuit at its resonant frequency.
[17:06:52] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/drivers.lyx: fix and clarify parport example and use true double quotes instead of smart quotes in examples
[17:07:17] <lerman> When you get it working, I might be interested in copying your design. :-)
[17:07:33] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/drivers.lyx: merge rev clarify parport example and use true double quotes instead of smart quotes in examples
[17:08:29] <paragon36> No problem ... Don't hold your breath though, we'll hate to loose you ;-)
[17:10:11] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/debian/changelog: scara robot config, visualization
[17:47:58] <cradek> lerman: when you start a new thread/topic, please don't reply to an existing message in another thread - it can be baffling to those of us who use threading mailreaders
[17:48:31] <lerman> sorry. I should have edited the headers.
[17:48:43] <cradek> no problem
[17:48:57] <cradek> several people do it all the time, but you're the only one here to complain to :-)
[17:49:45] <lerman> And... now you're supposed to address some of my issues....
[17:50:00] <cradek> we all have issues!
[17:50:32] <lerman> I think error message handling in the interp is a big one. Right now, they are canned text and can provide no context.
[17:51:25] <lerman> Doesn't it drive you crazy when you get a message that says limit on axis 0 exceeded? I would sure like to be told what the limit is and what value I had attempted.
[17:51:25] <cradek> I would like us to always get the line number right - seems like it's often +-1
[17:52:20] <cradek> "linear move -27 out of range" is a bit baffling
[17:52:23] <lerman> That we can probably fix. Although right now, I think the messages say something like, "near line 28".
[17:52:43] <cradek> AXIS does say that, sadly enough
[17:53:04] <lerman> Does it have access to the X, Y, Z values?
[17:53:05] <cradek> I'm not sure the other guis even give a line number, do you know?
[17:53:13] <cradek> no
[17:53:14] <lerman> I don't know.
[17:53:45] <lerman> My changes will also require transferring the file name so that the gui can display it.
[17:54:09] <cradek> the file name is already in the stat buffer
[17:54:31] <lerman> Is that the current file or the file that was "loaded"?
[17:54:38] <jepler> yes
[17:54:57] <lerman> What structure is the "stat buffer"?
[17:54:59] <jepler> (there's no difference now)
[17:55:19] <SWPadnos> too big to describe here :)
[17:55:33] <cradek> in AXIS Machine/Show EMC Status will show you (most of) the things in stat
[17:55:38] <SWPadnos> it's called emcstatus or some variant on that theme
[17:55:42] <lerman> I know there is no difference *now*. Give me a pointer to it. (what file).
[17:56:34] <lerman> What is the "flow" of the stat buffer? How is data put into it (by what program)? and how is it accessed (by what programs)?
[17:57:09] <cradek> in general, motion writes to it, the guis read it
[17:58:28] <SWPadnos> lerman, look in src/emc/nml_intf
[17:58:56] <cradek> src/emc/motion/motion.h, emcmot_status_t
[17:58:58] <cradek> bbl
[19:27:36] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/kinematics/scarakins.c: avoid going to nan when the requested position is outside the machine's reach
[19:28:00] <skunkworks> nan?
[19:28:16] <cradek> not-a-number
[19:28:22] <skunkworks> ah
[19:29:40] <jepler> in the case of scara, it computes the inverse cosine (acos()) of a value. if you ask for a spot the machine can't reach, it takes asin(x) where x is bigger than 1
[19:29:54] <jepler> the result is called "nan" because there is no such number
[19:30:29] <jepler> I changed it so that if the number for acos() is clamped at -1 and 1, which has the effect of going to the nearest position that is within reach
[19:30:48] <jepler> er, "so that the number for acos() is clamped"
[19:33:14] <jepler> I don't understand why it doesn't give a following error in cartesian mode when I jog out of the work envelope
[19:34:27] <skunkworks> makes sense
[19:34:38] <SWPadnos> following error is per joint, isn't it?
[19:34:57] <jepler> SWPadnos: yeah that was just dawning on me too
[19:35:03] <SWPadnos> so if you clamp the requested and actual values to some range, you may never getan error
[19:36:08] <SWPadnos> maybe the thing to do is make "out of range" be equivalent to some sort of "soft limit" error
[19:36:19] <SWPadnos> I dunno if there's access to that in the kins though ...
[19:39:13] <jepler> I think it may be doing that when it runs a program -- I can get "linear move X out of range", anyway
[19:39:21] <jepler> but maybe it's comparing to some completely bogus work envelope
[19:46:42] <SWPadnos> I wonder if the way following error is calculated is wrong enough to correct
[19:48:17] <jepler> maybe it *should* be calculated on axis positions, not joint
[19:48:51] <SWPadnos> definitely. consider the Puma robot, where two joints may have additive (or subtractive) errors
[19:48:52] <jepler> soft limits seem to work by making sure the endpoint of the requested move is within the soft limits for each joint
[19:49:16] <jepler> so a move that passes through the central unreachable area is not noticed as out of limits before the move starts
[19:49:16] <SWPadnos> yeah. soft limits are another can of worms
[19:58:12] <davidma> hi. i've noticed the version of EMC I have (1-2 years old, don't recall the number) sometimes starts the next movement before the current one has completed
[19:58:23] <davidma> like it 'chops the corners' a bit.
[19:59:37] <davidma> i'll get that version number and check back.
[20:00:24] <crepincdotcom_> wow
[20:00:30] <crepincdotcom_> tinkntinker just called me
[20:01:03] <crepincdotcom_> they were out of a bit I ordered, but looked at my site, found the Mill I built, and determined that they had a better bit anyway
[20:01:14] <cradek> haha wow
[20:01:12] <crepincdotcom_> That's some good support
[20:01:39] <crepincdotcom_> what is "runout"?
[20:01:51] <crepincdotcom_> he said my mill would probably break a 30-mil bit
[20:01:53] <crepincdotcom_> due to runout
[20:02:10] <cradek> runout is the extent to which the tool's axis and the axis of rotation are offset from one another
[20:02:34] <crepincdotcom_> im sorry, I dont follow
[20:02:38] <cradek> like wobble, but different
[20:02:45] <crepincdotcom_> the tools axis... isnt that the direction its spinning?
[20:02:55] <crepincdotcom_> ohhh i get it
[20:02:55] <cradek> ummmm
[20:02:58] <cradek> having trouble explaining
[20:03:02] <crepincdotcom_> and he's saying that my mill has a large offset
[20:03:03] <crepincdotcom_> ?
[20:03:22] <cradek> imagine the tool is off center in the spindle. if you watch the edge of it while it turns, it will appear to move back and forth
[20:03:29] <crepincdotcom_> ok
[20:03:35] <cradek> that distance it moves is the runout
[20:03:45] <crepincdotcom_> due to bad bearings and motor? i mean it's brand new...
[20:04:00] <cradek> sloppy bearings or collets
[20:04:05] <crepincdotcom_> hm
[20:04:07] <cradek> or the spindle bore itself
[20:04:20] <crepincdotcom_> I guess no PCBs for me *sniff*
[20:04:23] <cradek> the collets are probably the worst of the problem on your machine (just guessing)
[20:04:32] <crepincdotcom_> or at least they have to be designed with bigger traces
[20:04:43] <crepincdotcom_> well theres nothing i can do about that
[20:04:47] <cradek> you're not trying to mill PCBs with tiny end mills are you?
[20:04:56] <cradek> you should use the V tools made for that
[20:05:09] <crepincdotcom_> well i *was* going to...
[20:05:10] <cradek> I thought jepler said that earlier when you were talking about it
[20:05:18] <cradek> don't -- they'll just break
[20:05:26] <crepincdotcom_> the smallest bit I could find that they specifically said was for PCB was like 80 mil
[20:05:39] <crepincdotcom_> maybe I'm just a finding-things noob
[20:05:56] <cradek> http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/mechmill.htm
[20:06:03] <crepincdotcom_> looking...
[20:06:12] <cradek> they call it "mechanical etching"
[20:06:25] <cradek> these tools are FOR that and they work great
[20:06:31] <crepincdotcom_> ahh... i read "esigned specifically for use on mechanical etching systems manufactured by LPKF and T-Tech" and decided that was bad
[20:06:32] <crepincdotcom_> ok thanks
[20:06:34] <crepincdotcom_> ill call them backl
[20:06:45] <cradek> these are hard to break
[20:07:48] <ds3> there is a guy selling PCB etch bits for $4-$5
[20:10:04] <cradek> where?
[20:10:13] <cradek> (these are only $8.71 qty 1)
[20:10:26] <ds3> looking in my bookmarks....
[20:10:55] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/pcb
[20:11:08] <cradek> did you see this?
[20:11:17] <cradek> I guess I don't have a link to the exact tool ... probably should
[20:14:44] <crepincdotcom_> cradek: when I run the Eagle scripts for the PCB --> NC code generation, it fails with error "Cannot find file /tmp/something". I'm probably an idiot for running this on windows but my linux box is fairly bogged down at the moment
[20:14:55] <crepincdotcom_> have you seen that error before?
[20:15:14] <cradek> I don't use windows, but it does write to /tmp, which probably doesn't exist on a windows machine
[20:15:35] <crepincdotcom_> so if I replace the path with something useable it should be fine then
[20:15:36] <crepincdotcom_> ok thanks
[20:15:36] <cradek> you ought to be able to coerce it to do whatever is right for windows
[20:15:57] <crepincdotcom_> ok
[20:17:43] <ds3> hmmm went up in price
[20:17:46] <ds3> http://www.flickr.com/photos/16019611@N00/
[20:18:10] <ds3> up to 7.50 each, when he was giving out samples it was around 4-5 :/
[20:18:13] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ goes to get aluminium scraps from the school shop
[20:18:32] <ds3> cradek: what do people do to protect their ways from the PCB milling chips?
[20:19:02] <cradek> vacuum works really well since the "chips" are just dust
[20:19:59] <ds3> is that sufficient to avoid lapping the ways if it gets on the oil?
[20:20:21] <cradek> ds3: I don't know :-/
[20:20:32] <anonimasu> probably after enough use
[20:20:33] <ds3> cradek: have you tried it on your own mill?
[20:20:49] <cradek> yeah I've cut lots and lots of boards
[20:20:57] <SWPadnos> the chips shouldn't be as hard as what you get when milling things like aliminum
[20:21:00] <SWPadnos> I think
[20:21:10] <SWPadnos> aluminum, that was supposed to be
[20:21:14] <ds3> cradek: and your ways still reasonably straight?
[20:21:27] <cradek> my mill is anodized Al on anodized Al, it was never reasonable straight :-)
[20:21:35] <ds3> SWPadnos: problem is the fiberglass in the FR4...
[20:21:40] <ds3> hahahah
[20:21:55] <SWPadnos> that should still be softer than AlO2
[20:21:56] <ds3> cradek: okay, is it still useable for other accurate work as it was new?
[20:22:04] <pier__> cradek: looking at realize... did you manage to get acad working on wine or something like that on linux?
[20:22:11] <cradek> yeah it's as good as ever
[20:22:14] <ds3> SWPadnos: sure SiO2 is softer then AlO2?
[20:22:21] <cradek> pier__: I use autocad R12/dos under freedos in qemu
[20:22:28] <ds3> cradek: and all you used is a regular vaccum next to the bit?
[20:22:46] <SWPadnos> I think so. good emery paper is made with Aluminum oxide (and that's what you get when you anodize as well)
[20:22:49] <cradek> ds3: yes, or often not, the dust doesn't go very far, it mostly sits on the board
[20:23:19] <cradek> I just try to not dump a lot of the dust on the ways/screws, I vacuum it at the end of the job
[20:23:40] <ds3> hmmm, guess I'll give it a try... rapid way wear is what I was afraid of
[20:23:57] <SWPadnos> http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/mohs_hardness_abrasive_grit.html
[20:24:12] <ds3> (was thinking of constructing an elaborate dish/cover to do this under a pool of oil or water)
[20:24:27] <SWPadnos> AlO2 = 0, Quartz/Silica sand = 6-7 on Mohs' scale
[20:24:34] <SWPadnos> err - that was 9, not 0 :)
[20:24:45] <SWPadnos> (darned opposite keys next to each other)
[20:25:15] <pier__> cradek: thanks...
[20:25:22] <ds3> cool...thanks
[20:25:41] <ds3> so in theory the HA should be fine
[20:26:01] <SWPadnos> "Hard Anodizing"?
[20:26:02] <cradek> pier__: it would be faster in vmware, but I've been using it in qemu since before vmware was free (as in beer)
[20:26:06] <jepler> Another advantage of the 1103 is its ability to work well with virtually any input-output medium -- magnetic tape, punched cards, line printer, electric typewriter, oscilloscope, and a wide variety of sensing devices. Adding to its very high speed is an exceptionally fast memory-reference system which keeps the system's 17,408 internal storage registers directly accessible. http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/02/05/ad-designed-for-science/
[20:26:12] <ds3> yeah, the table and parts of my mill are HA'ed
[20:26:13] <jepler> I love old computer ads
[20:26:41] <SWPadnos> wow - more than 16k O_O
[20:27:21] <ds3> jepler: that could be a modern ad if it fit'ed on a thumb nail and those 16K of registers are directly addressed like ram on a PIC or the internal memory on an 8051 ;)
[20:27:24] <pier__> cradek: never got down to seriously install vmware on my pc... it sounds a bit too tricky
[20:27:38] <cradek> qemu is much (MUCH) simpler
[20:27:56] <jepler> but not as fast
[20:27:58] <cradek> and much slower, but it's real free software
[20:29:07] <ds3> with the kqemu stuff, it gets close to vmware (supposely, hangs my x86_64 system :()
[20:29:26] <pier__> sad that with qcad is hard to deal with z
[20:30:32] <pier__> unless one fumbles a bit with layers and colors
[20:30:48] <cradek> I've tried twice and never seen kqemu improve the situation
[20:31:35] <alex_joni> cradek: ever tred initramfs ? (a 2.6 thing)
[20:32:02] <cradek> don't think so
[20:32:13] <cradek> is that different from the usual boot method?
[20:32:24] <alex_joni> it builds a cpio that it includes in the kernel
[20:32:34] <alex_joni> so you can pack an entire / into the kernel
[20:32:49] <cradek> yeah that's the normal boot method
[20:32:57] <cradek> gets replaced later
[20:33:00] <cradek> / gets replaced later
[20:33:18] <alex_joni> yeah, except if there's an /init in the initramfs it won't even try
[20:33:27] <alex_joni> so root=... doesn't matter in that case
[20:42:50] <pier__> cradek: can perform an installation of r12 from floppies with qemu?
[20:42:58] <pier__> can one
[20:44:59] <alex_joni> should be able to
[20:45:08] <alex_joni> pier__: hi.. you're from italy.. right?
[20:45:14] <pier__> yes
[20:45:32] <alex_joni> can you check if www.linuxcnc.org is ok?
[20:45:34] <erDiZz> pier__, if there is a lot of installation floppies, you can at least use the host floppy (/dev/fd0)
[20:46:27] <cradek> pier__: probably - I don't remember how I installed it
[20:46:30] <pier__> alex_joni: ok looking at it
[20:47:07] <pier__> erDiZz: I have an old floppy set of 20-ish floppies
[20:49:29] <alex_joni> pier__: is it any good?
[20:49:37] <alex_joni> pier__: the italian translation I mean :)
[20:51:25] <pier__> alex_joni: yes I got it :)
[20:51:40] <pier__> alex_joni: it looks very good to me
[20:51:52] <alex_joni> pier__: do you have your browser set to request italian pages?
[20:51:55] <pier__> apart from some slight imperfection in grammar
[20:52:01] <alex_joni> default language or whatever it's called
[20:52:06] <pier__> no
[20:52:13] <alex_joni> ah, ok..
[20:52:38] <alex_joni> I think it works to just go to www.linuxcnc.org and get an italian page that way
[20:54:16] <pier__> I noticed that something else needs translation
[20:54:28] <alex_joni> there are a few things not yet translated
[20:54:44] <alex_joni> bbl
[21:02:39] <pier__> nite all
[21:04:52] <anonimasu> :)
[21:20:15] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ teaches himself eagle...
[21:23:20] <cradek> we feel sorry for you
[21:23:29] <crepincdotcom_> ;-) I doubt it
[21:23:33] <alex_joni> we do..
[21:23:38] <crepincdotcom_> why is that?
[21:23:40] <skunkworks> good luck ;)
[21:23:45] <cradek> it's otherworldly
[21:23:50] <skunkworks> a bit counter intuitive
[21:24:00] <cradek> use net, not wire, to connect things
[21:24:00] <skunkworks> but it works
[21:24:08] <crepincdotcom_> so I've noticed.... I'm glad it's not just me being of sub-par intelligence
[21:24:08] <cradek> that's the first thing people screw up
[21:24:19] <crepincdotcom_> thanks cradek
[21:24:33] <cradek> were you using wire?
[21:24:45] <crepincdotcom_> at this point I'm just trying to get parts on the window....
[21:24:58] <crepincdotcom_> hm, so I connect things where they need to go
[21:25:05] <crepincdotcom_> but the lines are all over the place
[21:25:13] <crepincdotcom_> how can I now tell them to like, lay down and let me route them
[21:25:14] <lerneaen_hydra> can someone test e0k.shacknet.nu and see how the speed is?
[21:25:18] <cradek> there's a tutorial (I think it's on their website)
[21:25:29] <crepincdotcom_> lerneaen_hydra: fast
[21:25:34] <lerneaen_hydra> just click a few links and stuff
[21:25:34] <cradek> you ought to go through it - it's very hard to learn otherwise
[21:25:46] <crepincdotcom_> cradek: yeah I'm looking for it
[21:25:50] <cradek> are you drawing the schematic first? it's really not geared toward drawing boards directly
[21:26:04] <lerneaen_hydra> crepincdotcom_; thanks
[21:26:15] <crepincdotcom_> to tell you the truth I can't tell which of those I'm drawing at the moment
[21:26:26] <cradek> heh
[21:26:32] <crepincdotcom_> if I draw a schematic, isn't it a lot of work to then place all the compnents?
[21:26:34] <cradek> remember, it's not you :-)
[21:26:49] <crepincdotcom_> haha
[21:29:06] <lerneaen_hydra> crepincdotcom_; I take it you voted for cowboy neal?
[21:29:38] <SWPadnos> that was me :)
[21:29:44] <crepincdotcom_> I havent been on slashdot in quite a while :-p
[21:29:45] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, excelent
[21:29:47] <crepincdotcom_> whats going on over there?
[21:29:53] <lerneaen_hydra> the same basically
[21:29:58] <crepincdotcom_> ah
[21:30:03] <SWPadnos> it seems pretty fast here as well, though it's as though there's a short pause before any transfer starts
[21:30:23] <lerneaen_hydra> you've still got your 25% linux trolls, 25% microsoft bashers, 25% general FUD, and 25% good stuff
[21:30:26] <SWPadnos> click - pause - fasttransfer
[21:30:42] <SWPadnos> do you think it's as high as 25% good stuff these days?
[21:30:44] <crepincdotcom_> hahaha
[21:35:15] <lerneaen_hydra> SWPadnos; well, of the stuff that gets moderated up ;)
[21:35:24] <lerneaen_hydra> I browse at +4 or +5
[21:38:03] <lerneaen_hydra> the funny thing is that I don't think more than one or two people will get the slashdot reference
[21:40:56] <crepincdotcom_> well making schamatics in eagle is easy so far
[21:41:05] <crepincdotcom_> lets see about turning this into a board
[21:44:02] <crepincdotcom_> OH MY GOD
[21:44:05] <crepincdotcom_> AUTOROUTING
[21:44:08] <crepincdotcom_> THAT IS SO COOL
[21:44:13] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ loves eagle now
[21:54:33] <crepincdotcom_> * crepincdotcom_ goes to eat dinner
[22:21:50] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:34:47] <Nicolas35LA> Hello, If one uses hardware pulse generation (similar to the Pico systems board), how large a base period can be used. Can it be as large as the servo period, around 1ms?
[22:46:27] <cradek> Nicolas35LA: yes, you don't actually need that thread for anything then
[22:47:59] <Nicolas35LA> thanks
[22:48:46] <cradek> in the univstep sample config, I see it makes a base thread, but doesn't hook anything to it
[22:48:56] <Nicolas35LA> what is the minimum acceptable RTAI latency for the 1ms thread to function well
[22:49:19] <cradek> in the rtai test, you shouldn't get any overruns
[22:49:30] <Nicolas35LA> I don't
[22:49:31] <cradek> I don't know exactly what number that corresponds to
[22:49:38] <cradek> then it's fine
[22:49:48] <Nicolas35LA> but I have no clue how to interpret the latency test output
[22:50:11] <cradek> if overruns stays at 0 no matter what you do, it's fine
[22:50:19] <Nicolas35LA> other than I don't get overruns
[22:50:23] <cradek> try starting applications, moving windows, etc
[22:50:28] <Nicolas35LA> ok
[22:51:30] <cradek> RTH| lat min| ovl min| lat avg| lat max| ovl max| overruns
[22:51:31] <cradek> RTD| -1589| -1589| 3015| 9976| 9976| 0
[22:51:39] <cradek> this is what my machine gives
[22:52:30] <Nicolas35LA> ok
[22:52:52] <Nicolas35LA> nime is not as good. I am considering porting EMC2 to our ARM 200MHZ based board
[22:52:53] <cradek> 'ovl max' is the important one - it will go up to about 30000 I think
[22:53:00] <Nicolas35LA> but I don't get overruns
[22:53:28] <cradek> cool
[22:54:13] <cradek> we'd like to integrate any fixes you would make - I think you're not the only one interested in ARM
[22:54:24] <crepincdotcom_> uh..... I just did "g0 z20" in AXIS mdi and walked away, I came back a few seconds later and the z-axis was stalling, pushing up against its end and axis had it at about 600 and still going.....
[22:54:31] <crepincdotcom_> any idea why that might be?
[22:54:53] <anonimasu> crepincdotcom_: any offsets or so activated?
[22:55:05] <crepincdotcom_> no, they were all inactive
[22:55:08] <cradek> maybe you were in inch mode, but your machine is metric - you commanded 20 inches
[22:55:09] <crepincdotcom_> I had just opened axis
[22:55:20] <crepincdotcom_> it was in metric, the numbers were in metric as well
[22:55:23] <cradek> does it show G20 or G21 in active modes?
[22:55:42] <crepincdotcom_> g20
[22:55:45] <cradek> that's inch
[22:56:03] <crepincdotcom> how would it have changed?
[22:56:07] <Nicolas35LA> If I get it running on ARM I will post my experience
[22:56:18] <cradek> either MDI g20, or running a program with g20 in it
[22:56:23] <cradek> Nicolas35LA: great
[22:56:30] <crepincdotcom> the only commands I've run since start are g0 z20
[22:56:36] <crepincdotcom> oh well... I must have done something stupid
[22:56:38] <crepincdotcom> thanks guys
[22:56:52] <anonimasu> crepincdotcom_: still, that's when you need home swithes..
[22:57:01] <anonimasu> and working limits
[22:57:08] <cradek> crepincdotcom: restart emc and see if it starts in inch - maybe you have something bogus in your ini
[22:57:14] <crepincdotcom> anonimasu: that will be quite a project.... for another time
[22:57:16] <anonimasu> * anonimasu just realizes how important they are
[22:57:19] <anonimasu> realized..
[22:57:49] <crepincdotcom> cradek: restarted and working normally in metric
[22:58:05] <cradek> try that command again
[22:58:15] <crepincdotcom> just did, and it worked as expected
[22:58:19] <cradek> hmmmm
[22:58:29] <crepincdotcom> :-/ must have done something without realizing it
[22:58:33] <cradek> g0 z20 is similar to g20 ...?
[22:58:50] <crepincdotcom> i thought that too, but I looked in the history and it definatly was g0 z20
[22:58:57] <ds3> Nicolas35LA: are you the one talking about RT Linux on the gumstix list?
[22:59:00] <cradek> I'm stumped then
[22:59:16] <crepincdotcom> my fault I guess
[22:59:23] <Nicolas35LA> no
[22:59:26] <Nicolas35LA> RTAI on ARM
[22:59:27] <cradek> crepincdotcom: if you see it again, let me know
[22:59:33] <Nicolas35LA> RTA is supported on ARM
[22:59:33] <crepincdotcom> lol I don't have any stock so I'm milling my name into an aluminium heatsink now...
[22:59:36] <crepincdotcom> cradek: ok
[22:59:49] <ds3> Nicolas35LA: what kind of ARM board are you using?
[23:00:01] <Nicolas35LA> our own
[23:00:12] <ds3> may I ask what processor?
[23:00:13] <Nicolas35LA> based on Cirrus
[23:00:20] <Nicolas35LA> EP9302
[23:00:28] <ds3> ah
[23:00:48] <Nicolas35LA> the tricky part is the MaverickCrunch FP
[23:01:01] <Nicolas35LA> that will give me some work I am sure
[23:01:03] <ds3> that's a stock ARM core isn't it? (i.e. not Xscale like the PXA255)
[23:01:09] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:01:50] <Nicolas35LA> So far RTAI seem sfine
[23:01:55] <ds3> is there a general effort somewhere to get EMC running on ARM?
[23:02:07] <Nicolas35LA> Not that I know
[23:02:24] <ds3> I'd love to get it running on the gumstix; lot smaller then even a PC104
[23:02:26] <Nicolas35LA> it only makes sens with hardware step generation I think
[23:02:33] <Nicolas35LA> We do step gen in hardware
[23:02:37] <ds3> FPGA?
[23:02:47] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:03:10] <ds3> what kind of motor are you driving? steppers or servo
[23:03:29] <Nicolas35LA> well if we port EMC we could do both
[23:03:51] <Nicolas35LA> at the moment the board does steppers but has enough FPGA free gates to do servos
[23:03:59] <ds3> yes but it goes back to needing hardware step generator; steppers may be able to get away with software
[23:04:11] <ds3> Hm
[23:04:18] <Nicolas35LA> The ARM effort is an avenue we are considering at this point
[23:04:43] <ds3> how big of an FPGA so far? Xilinx spartan/coolrunner level?
[23:04:59] <Nicolas35LA> Base don the RTAI test I have seen software steps with EMC on ARM would be quite poor
[23:05:13] <Nicolas35LA> Spartan 3E on the current board
[23:05:18] <Nicolas35LA> you can see it at atelierrobin.net
[23:05:28] <jepler> ds3: SWPadnos bought an arm+fpga board recently, so he may be interested in an ARM port as well
[23:06:06] <ds3> jepler: cool... it'd be a good alternative to the rapid changes with following x86
[23:06:48] <ds3> this is the ARCNC100?
[23:06:55] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:07:06] <Nicolas35LA> but the Cirrus board is sandwitched to it
[23:07:33] <Nicolas35LA> We would make a simpler version of this baord
[23:07:47] <Nicolas35LA> since the CPU board has Ethernet and USB already
[23:08:13] <ds3> the Cirrus chip has a host controller? is it available in nonBGA packages?
[23:08:54] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:09:10] <Nicolas35LA> it has a ethernet MAC
[23:09:19] <Nicolas35LA> available is QFP
[23:09:46] <ds3> ethernet is common; a while ago I was looking for ARM chips that have a host controller and available in nonBGA...seems like Atmel wasthe only one
[23:10:17] <Nicolas35LA> brb
[23:16:05] <Nicolas35LA> They market it as a system on chip kind of
[23:16:33] <Nicolas35LA> A 32 bit CPU with MMU plus thing normaly found in microcontrollers
[23:18:07] <ds3> yes... the problem is not everyone is equipped to handle the packing/volume they want so a lot of the availability is not really there
[23:18:55] <ds3> how are you handing the 2.x volt interface with the outside world?
[23:20:26] <Nicolas35LA> the FPGA is the one interfacing to the outside
[23:20:42] <Nicolas35LA> thru buffers
[23:21:16] <Nicolas35LA> If you run a large FPGA you need 3 voltages plus 5V on the board anyway
[23:21:26] <Nicolas35LA> it is a 6 layer board
[23:24:39] <ds3> so you just run 5V and expect the servo amp to provide the isolation?
[23:25:15] <Nicolas35LA> ok, I see your question
[23:25:42] <Nicolas35LA> we have not designed the board that interfaces to servos yet
[23:26:11] <Nicolas35LA> we do have analog outs but they are not isolated
[23:26:27] <Nicolas35LA> and not really used to run servos at this time
[23:26:45] <ds3> even steppers could use isolation
[23:26:53] <Nicolas35LA> at this point we concentrate on getting the engine working.
[23:27:05] <ds3> the 1.x volt logic on the CPU is probally not going to like spikes coming in
[23:27:06] <Nicolas35LA> I know
[23:27:07] <ds3> gotcha
[23:27:19] <Nicolas35LA> this is minor desig issues in the big picture
[23:27:30] <Nicolas35LA> we need to get the engine to the level we want first
[23:27:47] <ds3> wonder if there is people interested in this to make a concerted effort
[23:28:19] <Nicolas35LA> We made the baord so other companies can easily make aux boards for it
[23:28:31] <Nicolas35LA> we concentrate on the engine board first
[23:28:54] <Nicolas35LA> there are many companies out there that are good at providing aux boards
[23:29:14] <ds3> not to belittle or insult your efforts, but why did you choose to layout your own design instead of using something like a gumstix?
[23:29:33] <Nicolas35LA> gunstix is bite but has major cost problems
[23:29:41] <Nicolas35LA> is cute
[23:29:45] <Nicolas35LA> bot bite
[23:29:47] <ds3> in what way?
[23:30:01] <Nicolas35LA> a complete system means more than one stick
[23:30:07] <Nicolas35LA> cost is not good
[23:30:10] <ds3> for low volume, they are way cheaper then doing a board
[23:30:10] <Nicolas35LA> over priced
[23:30:25] <Nicolas35LA> we are not low volume
[23:30:43] <ds3> Hmmm. intersting... I put together a design around an Atmel RM9200 and fab'ing the boards is more expensive then a gumstix :(
[23:30:48] <ds3> ah gotcha
[23:31:53] <Nicolas35LA> we already have the manufacturing issues streamlined
[23:32:07] <Nicolas35LA> cost is not that large for 250-500 batches
[23:32:31] <Nicolas35LA> the Cirrus chip is $9
[23:32:56] <ds3> I found making a multilayer board is the most expensive item
[23:33:04] <Nicolas35LA> not for us
[23:33:08] <Nicolas35LA> assembly is by far the most
[23:33:22] <Nicolas35LA> PCD is quite cheap
[23:33:24] <Nicolas35LA> PCB
[23:34:05] <ds3> you doing the assembly inhouse?
[23:34:36] <Nicolas35LA> no. Impossible for the ARCNC100
[23:34:46] <Nicolas35LA> you need very expensive machines
[23:35:03] <Nicolas35LA> We do simpler boards
[23:35:06] <Nicolas35LA> but not this one
[23:35:28] <Nicolas35LA> you mainly need large machines, space and a tech to operate the machine
[23:35:35] <Nicolas35LA> not worth it for us
[23:35:38] <Nicolas35LA> we contract ti
[23:35:40] <Nicolas35LA> it
[23:36:16] <ds3> what part requires the machines?
[23:36:38] <Nicolas35LA> For 250-500 productions? Pretty mush all ;)
[23:36:51] <Nicolas35LA> seriously, the FPGA, RAM and CPU are a pain
[23:36:55] <ds3> in that sense
[23:39:21] <ds3> isn't 8M of SDRAM going to be a problem?
[23:39:37] <Nicolas35LA> the CPU board has from 64 to 128 (optional)
[23:39:46] <Nicolas35LA> SD card up to 4GB
[23:40:03] <ds3> oh so that block diagram is not for the CPU board?
[23:40:08] <Nicolas35LA> no
[23:40:17] <Nicolas35LA> it is for the current incarnation of the ARCNC100
[23:40:32] <ds3> ohhh.. so the Cirrus board is the NG?
[23:40:52] <Nicolas35LA> the current ARCNC100 has a CPU on the FPGA itself and runs proprietary motion control code
[23:41:14] <Nicolas35LA> NG?
[23:41:21] <ds3> next generation
[23:41:25] <Nicolas35LA> in a sens
[23:41:40] <Nicolas35LA> of first generation
[23:41:42] <Nicolas35LA> or
[23:41:59] <Nicolas35LA> since we have not deployed the ARCNC100 at large yet.
[23:42:02] <ds3> does the Cirrus part have an LCD controller on it?
[23:42:05] <Nicolas35LA> it is a small production
[23:42:14] <ds3> oh
[23:42:20] <Nicolas35LA> our other product is large production
[23:42:28] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:43:08] <ds3> nice so a little box shaped thing to go with a Taig complete with touch screen LCD?
[23:43:38] <Nicolas35LA> actualy the arcnc100 DRIVES A standard NTSC monitor
[23:43:46] <Nicolas35LA> sorry for the caps
[23:43:58] <ds3> cool
[23:43:59] <Nicolas35LA> and uses a PS2 kayboard
[23:44:02] <Nicolas35LA> key
[23:44:13] <ds3> hey that sounds like the one used on the WebPal boards
[23:44:23] <Nicolas35LA> not familiar
[23:45:04] <ds3> PS7500FE Cirrus ARM chip
[23:45:09] <Nicolas35LA> ok
[23:45:51] <ds3> the WebPal was a 2000 era set top box that can be hacked to run Linux (they were surplaced at about $10 each; NTSC out, PS/2 KB, Parallel port, VGA out)
[23:45:56] <ds3> surplused
[23:46:15] <Nicolas35LA> ok
[23:46:39] <Nicolas35LA> NTSC is simple to imlpement in FPGA
[23:46:47] <Nicolas35LA> PS2 also
[23:47:06] <ds3> really? how do you do the different analog levels? a fast DAC?
[23:47:29] <Nicolas35LA> don't need a fast dac for a few colors
[23:47:44] <Nicolas35LA> we are not doing 24 bit graphics
[23:47:46] <Nicolas35LA> just menus
[23:48:03] <Nicolas35LA> on the ARCNC100 it is actualy black and white
[23:48:04] <ds3> by fast, I mean one that can go faster then 1MHz =)
[23:48:11] <Nicolas35LA> we want to keep the cost low on this card
[23:48:56] <Nicolas35LA> for B/W a resistor network does the job
[23:49:21] <ds3> that trick I know about; the PIC folks use it for a Pong game
[23:49:27] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:49:40] <Nicolas35LA> it is used alot
[23:49:42] <ds3> what resolution are you getting on your NTSC?
[23:49:57] <Nicolas35LA> depends on the quality of the screen
[23:49:59] <Nicolas35LA> we could go high
[23:50:10] <ds3> so you are not speed constraint like the PIC
[23:50:10] <Nicolas35LA> but so far we haven't decided what to cap it at
[23:50:17] <Nicolas35LA> no
[23:50:23] <Nicolas35LA> this is a FPGA implementation
[23:50:33] <Nicolas35LA> we can run at pretty much any speed
[23:50:54] <Nicolas35LA> the videos on the web site show a 256 pixel wide screen
[23:50:58] <ds3> sounds like a fine board.... now if only EMC had a HAAS mode in there interperter....*hint* *hint* ;)
[23:51:16] <Nicolas35LA> but we could double it but some cheap monitors may have difficulties
[23:51:46] <ds3> think the Atari 8 bits had a 320 wide mode and it was using color artifacts
[23:52:05] <Nicolas35LA> some one in Circuit Cellar did it at 512 and seems to run fine on the monitors they tested
[23:52:38] <ds3> that's 512 visible dots (i.e. not counting the overscans on either side)?
[23:52:51] <Nicolas35LA> but for hppy CNC people may decide to use cheap $100 LCD screen for cars and those are fuzzy
[23:53:14] <ds3> hey....100 is an expensive screen! I want to use my $30 LCD NTSC screens!
[23:53:22] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:53:37] <Nicolas35LA> We have a collection here all under $30
[23:53:54] <Nicolas35LA> they all work fine
[23:53:56] <ds3> heh... the ones made for video game systems?
[23:54:08] <Nicolas35LA> some of those are very very poor
[23:54:14] <Nicolas35LA> but still usable
[23:54:21] <Nicolas35LA> yes
[23:54:41] <ds3> is too bad there isn't any cheap touch screen overlays available