#emc | Logs for 2007-02-02

[02:20:36] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/ (halcmd.c halcmd_commands.c halcmd_commands.h): allow more than one pattern for 'list' and 'show' commands
[02:43:11] <Twingy> seen the Pico-ITX?
[03:20:57] <tomp> jepler: pyvcp_vbox has self.expand, but pyvcp_hbox does not, ( just browsed cvs to see it wasnt just my copy), maybe an omission? (both have it in thier add methods )
[03:29:43] <anonimasu> morning
[03:31:51] <jepler> tomp: probably a mistake on my part
[03:34:06] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/pyvcp_widgets.py: make hbox work again
[03:46:53] <anonimasu> ^_^
[05:43:39] <kc6lbj> kc6lbj is now known as pdp-1
[05:43:54] <pdp-1> pdp-1 is now known as kc6lbj
[05:44:15] <kc6lbj> kc6lbj is now known as pdp-1
[05:56:43] <kc6lbj> kc6lbj is now known as notranc
[05:57:35] <notranc> notranc is now known as kc6lbj
[06:09:41] <tomp> .part
[06:31:00] <fenn> fenn is now known as fenn_
[06:31:04] <fenn_> fenn_ is now known as fenn
[06:34:44] <fenn> fenn is now known as fenn_
[06:34:46] <fenn_> fenn_ is now known as fenn
[07:56:25] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wplyCogv3to <- best thing lately
[08:08:46] <Jymmmm> anyone have any ideas in clamping a 4" aluminum oddball shaped block so I cna drill/tap it on end?
[08:09:12] <anonimasu> hm, machine a fixture
[08:09:26] <Jymmmm> lol, it's jusr ONE hole
[08:09:42] <anonimasu> rubber blocks?
[08:09:48] <Jymmmm> anonimasu say what?
[08:10:00] <anonimasu> clamp it between two rubber blocks?
[08:10:15] <anonimasu> make a mark.. hit it with a >
[08:10:20] <Jymmmm> where do you get the rubber blocks from?
[08:10:51] <anonimasu> I dont know, but if it's just one you may not need to clamp it..
[08:11:04] <anonimasu> just when drilling
[08:11:17] <anonimasu> and well if you go in 2 steps or 3.. before final dia..
[08:11:32] <anonimasu> then use the pre tap..
[08:11:42] <Jymmmm> just gonna hit it once on the drill press
[08:12:04] <anonimasu> hm, use a rag or something..
[08:12:15] <anonimasu> to avoid damaging it..
[08:13:06] <Jymmmm> just not sure HOW to clamp it square, or even how to clamp it (I don't have vise, but I could get one I guess)
[08:13:26] <anonimasu> :/
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> +-------------------------------------------------------+
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> | |
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> | |
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> | |
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> | |
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> | |
[08:14:14] <Jymmmm> | |
[08:14:16] <Jymmmm> | /-----------------------------+
[08:14:18] <Jymmmm> | /
[08:14:20] <Jymmmm> +-----------------------/
[08:14:51] <anonimasu> top /side/wht
[08:14:58] <Jymmmm> left side center
[08:15:18] <Jymmmm> 10/32 blind hole
[08:15:33] <anonimasu> what way is that <>
[08:15:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu dosent know l/r
[08:16:45] <Jymmmm> ok, the left side of the ascii art is where the hole begins, and ends 1/2" from the left side
[08:17:09] <anonimasu> what side is that?
[08:17:12] <anonimasu> < - ->
[08:17:14] <anonimasu> ?
[08:17:15] <Jymmmm> yes
[08:17:20] <Jymmmm> Literally as shown
[08:17:26] <anonimasu> yeah but is it <
[08:17:47] <Jymmmm> you see the "Jymmmm"? That's where the hole begins
[08:17:54] <anonimasu> ah
[08:18:04] <anonimasu> ^
[08:18:11] <Jymmmm> and the hole ends 1/2" to the right of "jymmm" =)
[08:18:15] <anonimasu> why not clamt it like that..
[08:18:17] <ds3> why not bar clamps on the table?
[08:18:21] <anonimasu> straight up?
[08:18:26] <Jymmmm> anonimasu yeah
[08:18:37] <anonimasu> with a vise that's dead easy :)
[08:18:56] <Jymmmm> not sure how to square it up though.
[08:19:09] <ds3> indicator in the spindle
[08:19:15] <Jymmmm> we're tlaking cheap vise here
[08:19:14] <anonimasu> use dial gauge
[08:19:17] <anonimasu> :)
[08:20:45] <Jymmmm> I dont' think something like this would really work http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=30999
[08:21:15] <ds3> on a mill or drill press?
[08:21:17] <Jymmmm> dp
[08:21:59] <ds3> should work fine
[08:22:07] <Jymmmm> not really meant to hold a tall object
[08:22:11] <ds3> in that case, dykem it
[08:22:34] <ds3> layout, prick punch, then locate with a wobbler
[08:23:07] <Jymmmm> never used a wobbler
[08:23:28] <ds3> how accurate does the hole location need to be?
[08:24:27] <Jymmmm> Well, the block that I need to tap a hole in is what moves my Y Axis, if I phuk up th eblock, I'm screwed
[08:24:51] <Jymmmm> I need the hole so I can attach energy chain to it.
[08:25:21] <ds3> okay, what is the acceptable positional tolerance? =)
[08:26:10] <Jymmmm> Were talking murphy's law here, not accurance.... it's a one shot deal, and that's what I'm concerned about.
[08:27:03] <ds3> yes but if you have a loose tolerance on the location, just use the top of the drill bit to locate it against the CP/PP point
[08:27:26] <Jymmmm> Like, if I break a tap off because the hole isn't straight, I'm fucked.
[08:27:47] <ds3> how are you going to tap it?
[08:27:59] <ds3> and what size?
[08:28:07] <Jymmmm> mount tap in drill press and turn by hand
[08:28:12] <Jymmmm> 10/32"
[08:28:17] <ds3> (you say 0-80, I will go to bed immediately =))
[08:28:38] <ds3> Oh... that should work fine or use a spring center...
[08:28:48] <Jymmmm> a what?
[08:28:51] <ds3> what kind of tap?
[08:29:01] <Jymmmm> what ever I buy =)
[08:29:14] <Jymmmm> brand new =)
[08:29:15] <ds3> it looks like a live center but spring loaded so it'll have a slight downward push while aligning
[08:29:23] <Jymmmm> ah
[08:29:38] <ds3> I'd get a guntap or a forming tap... very very very good luck with them
[08:29:38] <Jymmmm> well, my Craftsman dp isn't the most accurate thing.
[08:30:04] <ds3> avoid vermont america or the usual 4F/3F ones; they need a lot of backing out
[08:30:18] <ds3> I use a HF quality DP =)
[08:30:20] <Jymmmm> I'll stop by western tool
[08:30:57] <ds3> just in case, I'd spot the hole with a center drill or a spotting drill first, JIC
[08:31:01] <Jymmmm> not sure if I should get 2 or 3 flute
[08:31:09] <ds3> through hole, right?
[08:31:12] <Jymmmm> blind
[08:31:19] <ds3> Oh
[08:31:27] <ds3> I'd get a forming tap then
[08:31:35] <ds3> best thing ever made!
[08:31:45] <Jymmmm> forming tap compared to what?
[08:32:16] <ds3> they have no flutes; you drill a slightly bigger hole (See machinery handbook or ask the guys at WT); they also produce no chips
[08:32:27] <ds3> the tap literally squeezes teh metal into threads
[08:32:37] <ds3> the chips is usually what kills you when tapping
[08:33:03] <Jymmmm> and this can be done by hand?
[08:33:08] <ds3> yep
[08:33:14] <ds3> takes no more force then a normal tap
[08:33:26] <Jymmmm> ok, so the taps at OSH are what kind?
[08:33:47] <ds3> OSH taps are Vermont american cutting 3F or 4F taper taps
[08:33:58] <ds3> made of carbon steel
[08:34:03] <Jymmmm> I've never used a forming tap
[08:34:19] <ds3> at the least I'd get a Hanson brand one from Ace...seems to work better
[08:34:45] <ds3> look up forming taps; think you will like that
[08:34:57] <ds3> just avoid HF taps...I had one that twisted on me ;)
[08:35:10] <Jymmmm> HF as in Harbor Freight?
[08:35:15] <ds3> yeah
[08:35:26] <Jymmmm> Nah, I'm gonna hit WT
[08:35:41] <Jymmmm> http://www.emuge.com/images/news/articles/InnoForm.jpg
[08:35:41] <Jymmmm> that?
[08:36:01] <ds3> maybe
[08:36:25] <ds3> the ones I have don't look like that
[08:36:31] <Jymmmm> http://www.machinerycanada.com/OSG%20taps.jpg
[08:37:15] <ds3> think they are also known as roll taps
[08:38:03] <ds3> look up 308-0268 at www.use-enco.com
[08:38:18] <ds3> should be a cleaveland brand 10-32 bottoming tap
[08:38:32] <Jymmmm> yeah
[08:39:01] <Jymmmm> ok so in the finished product, what is better"
[08:39:01] <Jymmmm> ?
[08:39:37] <ds3> for nonspringy material, roll taps are suppose to give stronger threads - work hardened + no stress risers due to cuts
[08:39:48] <ds3> but roll taps don't do that well on plastics since they tend to spring back
[08:40:32] <Jymmmm> and in aluminum/brass?
[08:40:44] <ds3> works fine, done both
[08:41:01] <ds3> even used it on steel (12L14 but still...)
[08:41:22] <ds3> only caveat is it needs a different size hole
[08:45:23] <Jymmmm> what needs a different sized hole?
[08:45:34] <Jymmmm> the two different types of taps you mean?
[08:45:55] <ds3> yep
[08:46:00] <Jymmmm> k
[08:46:12] <Jymmmm> have you tried HF drill bits?
[08:46:28] <ds3> got a set of them
[08:46:36] <Jymmmm> what do you think of them?
[08:47:11] <ds3> for me, they work okay.... the NG's suggests otherwise
[08:47:29] <Jymmmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=32928
[08:48:07] <ds3> think that's the one I have
[08:48:29] <ds3> no. mine is 117 not 135
[08:48:49] <ds3> did not pay that much for it though
[08:49:17] <fenn> drill bits work good enough for me.. i dont abuse them though
[08:49:31] <fenn> some of them were ground slightly wrong, needed correcting
[08:49:52] <Jymmmm> fenn well that's scarry
[08:50:10] <fenn> if you use drill bits in brass you will have to re grind them anyway
[08:50:20] <Jymmmm> why?
[08:50:43] <fenn> brass is tough and the drill sucks into the work too quickly
[08:50:54] <Jymmmm> ah
[08:51:07] <fenn> so if you grind the lip to 90 degrees like a spade bit, it doesnt do that
[08:51:26] <Jymmmm> aah, ok
[08:51:34] <fenn> um, helix angle, not point angle
[08:52:03] <ds3> rake angle I think is the term
[08:52:04] <fenn> yes
[08:52:35] <fenn> front rake not side rake
[08:53:33] <fenn> http://yarchive.net/metal/brass_drilling.html
[08:56:18] <ds3> wish HF would carry a cheap set of screw machine length bits
[08:57:15] <fenn> what's the difference between a screw machine bit and a hacked up jobber bit?
[08:57:31] <ds3> time to hack it up?
[08:57:40] <ds3> hmmm more than that
[08:57:47] <fenn> web thickness?
[08:57:52] <ds3> hack up bit would have a much bigger web
[08:57:52] <ds3> yep
[08:58:27] <fenn> seems like thats the sort of thing you'd only use a few different sizes of
[08:58:48] <fenn> i.e. better to buy large quantities of a single size
[08:58:57] <ds3> depends, I can't really use jobber length in my machine due to a lack of Z travel
[08:59:18] <ds3> plus screw machine length lets you get away w/o spotting
[08:59:26] <fenn> get an er collet chuck? :)
[08:59:45] <ds3> won't really help
[09:00:05] <ds3> the spindle only passes 5/16... and the 1/4" chuck is shorter then a ER :(
[09:00:16] <fenn> eww
[09:00:31] <fenn> is it a high speed spindle?
[09:00:39] <ds3> it runs up to 10K
[09:00:46] <ds3> so depends on your def. of high speed
[09:00:53] <fenn> fast enough
[09:05:00] <Vq^> alex_joni: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/romania_microsoft_piracy/
[09:12:50] <alex_joni> Vq^: we have a pretty excentric president
[09:13:00] <Vq^> :)
[09:13:01] <alex_joni> but I like him for that :D
[09:14:51] <Vq^> i believe he surprised the MS people :)
[09:15:08] <alex_joni> I'm glad he did
[09:15:19] <alex_joni> too bad he didn't start spreading word about FOSS
[09:15:22] <alex_joni> :P
[09:16:37] <Vq^> yeah, well, i guess you can't get everything :)
[09:16:53] <alex_joni> he is right though..
[09:18:44] <Vq^> that piracy has helped romania?
[09:18:55] <alex_joni> that it boosted the IT industry
[09:19:19] <fenn> well duh
[09:20:02] <fenn> this article should have said "microsoft indignant that someone in a position of power called their bluff"
[09:20:17] <Jymmmm> Hey, why make somehting illegal if it's not hurting someone and boosting the economy =)
[09:20:37] <fenn> but it's hurting microsoft's profit margins!! :(
[09:20:39] <Jymmmm> I think Mr Bill can afford it =)
[09:20:49] <fenn> noooo...
[09:21:23] <Jymmmm> he can't afford it?
[09:23:13] <fenn> regardless whether they can afford it, they cant afford to admit that they can afford it
[09:23:51] <Jymmmm> lol
[09:24:50] <alex_joni> heh
[09:40:04] <alex_joni> Vq^, fenn: seems it wasn't quite like they describe in that article
[09:40:13] <alex_joni> a friend of mine watched it yesterday live..
[09:40:40] <A-L-P-H-A> damn these torrents I have going are slow as hedgehog with three broken legs.
[10:14:59] <Jymmmm> http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/source/
[10:25:34] <A-L-P-H-A> anyone want a yummy salad recipe? http://southernfood.about.com/od/beansalads/r/bl30212k.htm yellow bean = chick peas.
[10:56:08] <alex_joni> hi plattschnauze
[11:05:35] <A-L-P-H-A> plattschnauze, ignore alex_joni, he's a bot.
[11:05:49] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A pokes alex_joni with a big nerf padded stick.
[11:05:51] <A-L-P-H-A> see...
[11:06:45] <alex_joni> alex_joni has kicked A-L-P-H-A from #emc
[11:06:58] <A-L-P-H-A> silly autoresponse script. :)
[11:07:03] <A-L-P-H-A> hehehe
[11:08:57] <alex_joni> this is an automated message to inform you the next time /kickban iwll be used instead
[11:09:34] <A-L-P-H-A> !q which part will result in a /kickban? the nerf padded stick?
[11:10:03] <alex_joni> this is an automated message to inform you the _next_ time /kickban will be used instead
[11:10:13] <alex_joni> guess you'll find out when it happens
[11:10:18] <A-L-P-H-A> :P
[11:11:14] <A-L-P-H-A> Okay, <mutter>Nicolae Ceausescu</mutter>.
[11:11:46] <alex_joni> ha
[11:17:50] <fenn> egad
[11:17:53] <fenn> "mothers of at least ten children were declared heroine mothers receiving a gold medal, a free car, free transportation on trains, etc."
[11:18:25] <alex_joni> :P
[11:38:33] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn? why was she declared a heroine?
[11:38:49] <fenn> because she helped to raise the birth rate
[11:38:54] <alex_joni> policy
[11:39:27] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn, you're kidding right?
[11:40:02] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: no, it was like that
[11:40:05] <fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceauşescu#The_1966_decree
[11:40:40] <A-L-P-H-A> link didn't work.
[11:40:46] <A-L-P-H-A> can't get that thing....
[11:41:03] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceausescu#The_1966_decree
[11:42:12] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm. :( big aids problem?
[11:42:33] <fenn> * fenn lol's at A-L-P-H-A
[11:42:58] <A-L-P-H-A> fenn... all those women... all those beautiful women... and then you gotta worry about aids. :(
[11:57:13] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A pokes alex_joni in the eye... did you add me yet?
[12:33:19] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: did now :P
[12:34:20] <fenn> "Note that the sky above the rainbow is darker than below. This is the signature of a genuine rainbow"
[12:34:50] <alex_joni> a genuine rainbow has a certificate on it's back
[12:41:45] <A-L-P-H-A> Geunine rainbow advantage software included. :)
[12:42:02] <A-L-P-H-A> nahhaha People who bugged me enough to put their link here:
[12:42:02] <A-L-P-H-A> Lloyd Leung
[12:42:22] <A-L-P-H-A> the links even wrong!
[12:42:23] <A-L-P-H-A> hahahaha
[12:42:27] <A-L-P-H-A> good job AJ.
[12:43:54] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: you didn't seriously expect me to get it right the first time?
[12:44:07] <A-L-P-H-A> umm... how hard is your CMS to use?
[12:44:22] <alex_joni> it's not a CMS
[12:44:22] <A-L-P-H-A> you should try wordpress... so simple.
[12:44:24] <alex_joni> it's a blog software
[12:44:30] <A-L-P-H-A> blog software is CMS.
[12:44:31] <alex_joni> this is even simpler
[12:44:40] <alex_joni> but.. I am terribly busy atm
[12:44:39] <A-L-P-H-A> Content Management system/software.
[12:44:47] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, no worries :)
[12:44:57] <alex_joni> a CMS is usually more than this
[12:45:04] <alex_joni> like wordpress/joomla, etc
[12:45:52] <A-L-P-H-A> wordpress is easy as pie... takes less than 5 minutes... but they say 5. edit a config file for DB access, and then run the setup script. Dirt simple. :)
[12:46:04] <A-L-P-H-A> and tones of pretty themes to boot.
[12:50:30] <A-L-P-H-A> thanks alex_joni.
[14:06:56] <A-L-P-H-A> felicitous marmota monax day
[14:07:23] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPLaptop
[14:07:35] <SWPLaptop> SWPLaptop is now known as SWPadnos_
[14:09:00] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A pokes SWPadnos... tryin to read your geckodrive msgs, but stupid imap is acting up
[14:09:15] <SWPadnos_> bummer
[14:09:28] <SWPadnos_> what was I talking about?
[14:09:40] <A-L-P-H-A> geckomotion over ethernet.
[14:09:50] <SWPadnos_> ah
[14:09:51] <A-L-P-H-A> thought ethernet was a bad idea...
[14:09:59] <A-L-P-H-A> still can't open it... frack'n imap.
[14:10:09] <SWPadnos_> ethernet is fine, but not if you want realtime feedback
[14:10:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I should setup a imap server of my own... poll all my emails, and have them local.
[14:10:24] <SWPadnos_> (at least, until someone writes RTNet-type software for it)
[14:10:29] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, real time was the issue.
[14:10:38] <SWPadnos_> just go to the Yahoo group and search
[14:10:55] <A-L-P-H-A> but it's in my email... :( stupid textdrive.
[14:10:58] <SWPadnos_> heh
[14:23:50] <A-L-P-H-A> hehe... german cars... http://algebraoflife.blogspot.com/2007/02/unlocks-your-car-using-tennis-ball.html pneumatics :)
[14:36:24] <alex_joni> SWPadnos_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wplyCogv3to
[14:37:19] <SWPadnos_> heh - saw that. kinda funny :)
[14:44:44] <A-L-P-H-A> I loved that show... it was funny.
[14:44:54] <A-L-P-H-A> wonder how many actual eps there were...
[14:47:48] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos. finally read that msg
[14:47:52] <A-L-P-H-A> slight bash on rabbit
[14:54:11] <SWPadnos_> I'm not all that happy with the Rabbit
[14:54:44] <SWPadnos_> I'm not a fan of the Z-80 architecture, and I'm also not a fan of processor vendors basically keeping their instruction set a secret
[14:55:10] <SWPadnos_> (it's not totally secret, but you don't get access to it until you buy some devkit or book)
[14:55:36] <A-L-P-H-A> lame.
[14:55:46] <A-L-P-H-A> you have the chip... why not give them the instructions?
[14:55:52] <A-L-P-H-A> atmel... friendly. :)
[14:56:00] <A-L-P-H-A> me <3 atmel
[14:57:12] <SWPadnos_> yeah. they have nice ARM chips that will smoke the rabbit in performance, and are in the same price class
[14:57:39] <SWPadnos_> I still haven't given up on making an ARM replacement for the Rabbit - just haven't gotten to it yet
[14:58:26] <SWPadnos_> hmmm - I'm not sure they even tell you all the new instructions with the devkit. I'd have to look
[14:59:48] <tomp> jepler: small changes to pyvcp_widgets, http://pastebin.ca/337118
[15:05:16] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos? who "wabit"?
[15:07:31] <SWPadnos_> yes, wabbit
[15:11:19] <A-L-P-H-A> wonder what I could do with the 20 or so atmel 90s2313 chips I have.
[15:13:11] <SWPadnos_> not much, in this application space
[15:13:14] <SWPadnos_> you could make a tach :)
[15:13:55] <A-L-P-H-A> hahahhaha
[15:13:56] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[15:14:10] <A-L-P-H-A> I gotta find my code again... :( I know I have it backed up... just gotta find that dvd.
[15:14:55] <alex_joni> SWPadnos_: how about a SMP RTOS for the 90s2313
[15:15:06] <alex_joni> one-two / joint :D
[15:15:08] <SWPadnos_> yeah - d00d!
[15:15:08] <A-L-P-H-A> un... it's got 2k on it.
[15:15:21] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: they had 2k on the moon lander thingie
[15:15:49] <alex_joni> I mean the code for landing was <2k I think
[15:15:52] <A-L-P-H-A> but they had radio support,and trained monkeys to fly it.
[15:15:53] <SWPadnos_> they had a total of 4k for all the computers in Apollo mission control
[15:16:10] <SWPadnos_> or maybe that was a total of 4 MHz. I don't remember
[15:16:19] <SWPadnos_> guess I'll have to take the tour again :)
[15:16:42] <A-L-P-H-A> you know... I may go take that tour, when I have little runts running around...
[15:17:18] <SWPadnos_> do you mean after you have kids, or with all the damned kids they always have on those tours?
[15:18:18] <SWPadnos_> incidentally, the tour I took doesn't allow kids at all
[15:18:23] <SWPadnos_> if a mother is nursing
[15:18:31] <SWPadnos_> ... a small baby - she can't go ...
[15:19:01] <A-L-P-H-A> ?
[15:19:07] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[15:19:11] <A-L-P-H-A> I meant, after I have kids.
[15:19:19] <A-L-P-H-A> and take the kids with me.
[15:19:30] <SWPadnos_> oh. well, don't wait for that to take the "Level 9 tour" at Houston
[15:19:38] <SWPadnos_> since you'll have to wait an extra 12 years or so
[15:19:50] <A-L-P-H-A> hmmmmmm...
[15:19:50] <SWPadnos_> (I don't remember if the age limit was 12 or 16)
[15:20:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I could leave them with the wife then... ;)
[15:20:15] <SWPadnos_> heh -that's the ticket
[15:20:22] <A-L-P-H-A> honey, I gotta go see something... I'll be back in a few umm... hours.
[15:20:58] <SWPadnos_> my wife and I took the expensive tour. you go down to the floor where the astronauts train, you go to the "pool", where they do the space-suit training ...
[15:21:22] <SWPadnos_> you go into Apollo mission control - the other tours are looking at you in there :)
[15:21:31] <SWPadnos_> from behind the glass ...
[15:23:02] <SWPadnos_> ah - the minimum age is 14
[15:23:22] <SWPadnos_> http://www.spacecenter.org/Level9Tour.html
[15:30:12] <alex_joni> yuck
[15:30:23] <alex_joni> you would think spacecenter would run on decent hardware/software
[15:30:52] <alex_joni> "Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager (inetmgr), and search for topics titled Web Site Setup, Common Administrative Tasks, and About Custom Error Messages."
[15:33:37] <SWPadnos_> the whole place is basically a NASA-themed amusement park
[15:33:40] <SWPadnos_> it's kind of sad, really
[15:34:10] <SWPadnos_> "Space Center Houston" is inside the NASA campus, but privately run ...
[15:34:37] <SWPadnos_> hopefully NASA gets a cut ofthe profits
[15:37:48] <xemet> ok, first time here
[15:38:19] <SWPadnos_> welcome, xemet
[15:38:20] <xemet> well, I think the java applet works
[15:38:21] <alex_joni> hi xemet
[15:38:28] <xemet> I'm Manfredi from Italy
[15:38:29] <alex_joni> xemet: I take it it's Manfredo?
[15:38:36] <alex_joni> manfredi :)
[15:38:38] <alex_joni> hi
[15:38:40] <xemet> ye
[15:38:44] <xemet> Hi
[15:39:13] <xemet> uhmm seems like I don't have smiles available here...right?
[15:39:17] <xemet> :)
[15:39:18] <xemet> no
[15:39:26] <xemet> perfect, smiles work
[15:39:29] <alex_joni> we can read smilies like that just fine :P
[15:39:35] <SWPadnos_> o_O
[15:39:42] <alex_joni> xemet: I sent you a private message
[15:39:43] <xemet> ok
[15:39:45] <alex_joni> did you get that?
[15:52:06] <SWPadnos_> well, gotta run. should be back later
[15:52:07] <SWPadnos_> see you
[15:54:57] <tomp> about NASA being run on decent hardware/software, read this free book on hacking http://www.underground-book.com/download.php3, esp the WANK attack at NASA
[15:55:14] <tomp> Worms Agains Nuclear Killers
[15:56:34] <tomp> (its a story not a howto )
[15:56:59] <pier> hi all
[15:58:15] <pier> I finally managed to get emc2 running on this Gentoo vulcano ker
[15:58:32] <A-L-P-H-A> pier, cool.
[15:58:46] <pier> thanks A-L-P-H-A
[15:58:55] <A-L-P-H-A> did you happen to document for other lemmings to follow? :)
[15:59:24] <pier> it is not finished yet
[15:59:34] <pier> I mean...
[15:59:49] <pier> there are things that need to be solved
[16:00:07] <pier> 1) I manage to only run it as root
[16:00:40] <pier> 2) axis doesnt work... just tkemc
[16:00:58] <pier> does
[16:02:23] <tomp> sounds like you got the big stuff worked out, congrats! perms & libs later
[16:02:57] <pier> tomp, are you referring to gentoo installation?
[16:03:13] <tomp> pier: yes, congrats
[16:03:36] <pier> I switched to geento a couple of months ago
[16:03:42] <pier> gentoo
[16:04:28] <tomp> pier: what advantage/feature that wasnt in ubuntu?
[16:04:55] <pier> with slackware emc installation was very easy (in my lab I have still slack/emc installed)
[16:05:08] <pier> I got impressed by the speed of gentoo
[16:05:42] <pier> perhaps because you are asked to compile almost any program
[16:06:04] <pier> on your pc
[16:06:23] <A-L-P-H-A> what do I use to un .tar.tgz something?
[16:06:40] <tomp> tar xzvf blah
[16:06:41] <pier> tar
[16:06:45] <pier> yes
[16:07:06] <pier> It would be great to make an ebuild for emc
[16:07:47] <tomp> pier: ebuild is the tool commonly used o gentoo to build from src?
[16:07:54] <A-L-P-H-A> hmmmmm... under windows right now... ssh time
[16:08:21] <pier> tomp, yes
[16:08:28] <pier> it is a script
[16:08:30] <tomp> pier: how does gentoo handle dependancies ( why i like apt )
[16:08:50] <pier> piece of cake
[16:08:58] <pier> emerge is the tool
[16:09:03] <pier> eg
[16:09:11] <pier> emerge emc2
[16:09:24] <pier> would emerge emc2 and all the dependencies
[16:09:37] <pier> and compile them in the right order
[16:10:09] <pier> download the last stable version from the site reported in the ebuild file
[16:10:31] <pier> compile it
[16:10:36] <pier> and install it
[16:10:49] <pier> keeping up to date the portage
[16:11:06] <tomp> pier: did you find the files for emc played nice with those tools? ( like emc2.1 ? )
[16:11:28] <pier> portage is a kind of data base of applications installed
[16:11:50] <pier> I downloaded the emc source and compiled locally
[16:12:44] <pier> I used emerge just to retrieve wbwidget
[16:14:12] <tomp> i bet the wiki could use some of this info, tho as a mostlu ubuntu/debian group we'd always be hesitant to suggest how to approach stuff in foreign environments (thus the use of the wiki as a bulletin board )
[16:14:18] <pier> keeping portage sync-ed with the mirror site allows you to keep your pc and all the applications updated till the last release and compiled according exactly to your hardware
[16:14:20] <A-L-P-H-A> okay... ssh helped.
[16:14:43] <A-L-P-H-A> Anyone know how to sync my linux box's time with some atomic time server? [via the command line?]
[16:15:12] <tomp> hmmm, time.us.gov & some perl?
[16:15:21] <pier> there is a bsd script utility for that
[16:15:22] <A-L-P-H-A> nm... it's actually doing it automatically already
[16:15:58] <pier> A-L-P-H-A, I would need that too...
[16:16:27] <A-L-P-H-A> pier... I dunno why... but it's set correctly right now... and I didn't do it.
[16:17:25] <tomp> ubuntu does it at boot
[16:17:39] <A-L-P-H-A> :) oh.
[16:17:41] <A-L-P-H-A> that's why then.
[16:18:32] <pier> ok... switching back to user privileges and display...
[16:20:53] <pier> it's a pity I can't run axis...
[16:27:28] <alex_joni> pier: why not?
[16:27:34] <pier> hi alex_joni
[16:27:44] <pier> don't know
[16:27:51] <pier> now I am trying
[16:28:07] <pier> but it always pop up tkemc
[16:28:17] <alex_joni> heh.. you need to change your ini file
[16:28:21] <pier> even though I change
[16:28:22] <alex_joni> DISPLAY = tkemc
[16:28:22] <pier> the ini file
[16:28:26] <alex_joni> DISPLAY = axis
[16:28:29] <pier> done
[16:28:35] <alex_joni> pier: wanna bet you changed the wron gfile?
[16:28:44] <pier> .... tell me
[16:29:08] <alex_joni> I mean you changed the wrong ini file, not the one you are running from the config picker
[16:29:25] <pier> changing the time of the popup gif I see it is the right one
[16:29:45] <tomp> A-L-P-H-A: i cant find what sets the clock in my logs, but i suspect you had a lan hookup at boot time. if you pull the cat5 before next boot, the system will pause for a while trying to connect to the time server, and the terminal screen will tip you off how it works
[16:29:50] <pier> at least I see that....
[16:30:05] <alex_joni> pier: can you pastebin the whole ini file?
[16:30:16] <A-L-P-H-A> tomp, it's a headless machine... dunno what's in there. :) I could check the dmesg
[16:30:20] <alex_joni> and the messages from emc as it starts up? (if you run from a terminal you get them)
[16:30:37] <pier> I just changed the DISPLAY variable...
[16:30:39] <pier> ok
[16:39:05] <pier> * pier struggling with pastebin
[16:40:39] <alex_joni> www.pastebin.ca
[16:40:42] <alex_joni> .com works like crap
[16:44:05] <pier> alex_joni: http://www.pastebin.ca/337210
[16:45:42] <alex_joni> pier: looks good to me
[16:45:51] <alex_joni> are you sure this is the file that gets used?
[16:46:09] <pier> I tried to vary the time of the popup image
[16:46:16] <pier> and it varies....
[16:46:23] <pier> when loaded
[16:46:58] <tomp> pier: what do you see happen when you set the ini to use axis
[16:47:15] <alex_joni> pier: in that file I see emc2.gif as the initial image
[16:47:17] <pier> nothing
[16:47:27] <alex_joni> so I still think it's the wrong file
[16:47:30] <pier> it turns on tkemn window
[16:47:42] <pier> tkemc
[16:47:49] <tomp> rename file to fred for a test
[16:47:56] <pier> despite the change in ini file
[16:48:19] <A-L-P-H-A> I should be eating lunch.
[16:48:45] <tomp> if it still runs, it aint running fred, and the contents of fred isnt where the cmds come from
[16:49:08] <pier> ok tomp
[16:50:16] <pier> didn't run this time
[16:50:34] <pier> Traceback (most recent call last):
[16:50:34] <pier> File "/home/pier/Programmi/emc2/bin/axis", line 34, in ?
[16:50:34] <pier> import Tkinter
[16:50:34] <pier> ImportError: No module named Tkinter
[16:51:26] <tomp> hmmm, its TRYING to run axis now, but doesnt have the right libs (or know where they are )
[16:52:04] <martin_lundstrom> have the directory for custom M code scripts changed? (I cant get my custom shell script to be executed, TkEmc sais "unknown m code used")
[16:52:13] <alex_joni> pier: sudo apt-get build-dep emc2-axis
[16:52:42] <martin_lundstrom> any ideas anyone?
[16:53:10] <tomp> in a terminal type 'python' then you get a prompt '>>>', then type import Tkinter , if that fails, then you no have the lib,, use ^D to quit python shell (do like alex sez :)
[16:53:27] <cradek> I think it looks for those in your default gcode directory, which is specified with PROGRAM_PREFIX in the ini file
[16:53:56] <martin_lundstrom> ok, ill have a look
[16:54:29] <tomp> pier: alex: i dunno if pier's gentoo has apt-get
[16:54:39] <pier> no
[16:55:12] <pier> no Tkinter
[16:55:23] <pier> ImportError: No module named Tkinter
[16:55:46] <tomp> this is where we dont know the other linux's turf, and dont give good advise, other than, you need to use your tools to get all the needed stuff
[16:58:04] <tomp> alex_joni: how would we ask apt what was contained in the list for 'build-dep emc2-axis' so pier could use that list with his gentoo(ls) to get them ?
[16:58:17] <cradek> apt-get showsrc emc2
[16:58:25] <cradek> then look at the Build-Depends line
[16:58:25] <tomp> wow hes fast
[16:58:43] <tomp> pier: waitaminut for a list
[16:58:58] <alex_joni> Build-Depends: debhelper (>> 4.0.0),@KERNEL_DEPENDS@,@KERNEL_HEADERS@,g++,make,libc6-dev,tcl8.4-dev,tk8.4-dev,libgtk2.0-dev,pciutils-dev,libncurses-dev,gettext,libxaw7-dev,libreadline5-dev,lyx-qt,python,tetex-bin,latex2html,python2.4-dev,libglu1-mesa-dev,libgl1-mesa-dev,libgnomeprint2.2-dev,groff,bwidget,tetex-extra
[16:59:32] <jepler> for Tkinter on ubuntu, the dependency is python2.4-tk which is in the Depends: line, not the Build-Depends: line
[17:00:01] <jepler> but tomp is right, if you don't use the package method of installation you have to take responsibility for installing the required packages.
[17:01:41] <tomp> pier: makes sense? you need the list alex_joni pasted plus the the vrsn of python jepler said, and you got to do it with your tools ( we're not familiar with them )
[17:01:45] <pier> ok thanks.... I'll show up later
[17:02:02] <tomp> pier: cool, let us know
[17:02:10] <pier> ok
[17:02:11] <pier> thanks
[17:02:28] <martin_lundstrom> cradek, you where correct, thanks
[17:02:50] <cradek> welcome
[17:03:20] <pier> * pier is away: Gone out for Deutsch Stunde
[17:03:34] <tomp> cradek: apt-get showsrc emc2 sez invalid op ?? how did you guys make it work
[17:03:45] <jepler> tomp: I think he meant apt-cache
[17:03:49] <tomp> k
[17:03:50] <cradek> uh, yeah
[17:04:03] <cradek> fast but wrong
[17:04:13] <tomp> mobetta
[17:04:49] <jepler> pier: you may have to rebuild your python package, tkinter is built (or not) at python's compile time, though distros like debian have chosen to break it out into a separate package these days
[17:05:38] <tomp> jepler: from what he said about gentoo, everything is built, nothing is binary.... (crosses fingers)
[17:06:41] <jepler> tomp: yep, that's my understanding of gentoo
[17:19:50] <alex_joni> bbl guys
[17:36:40] <tomp> jepler: changes to pyvcp_widget (last had wrong data for new method 'boxside') http://pastebin.ca/337242
[17:38:55] <jepler> tomp: do you think it makes sense to change the 'side' of a hbox? I didn't, that's why I didn't have a class to change 'side'
[17:39:42] <jepler> tomp: by the way, for showing changes, the output of "cvs diff -u filename" is more useful than showing a cut & paste of the part of the file that was changed.
[17:40:00] <tomp> k
[17:40:08] <tomp> on phone rb
[18:08:24] <eholmgren> 'lo
[18:20:30] <eholmgren> the CIA is everywhere!
[18:20:43] <eholmgren> they're even infiltrated #ghostscript
[18:31:06] <tomp> jepler: i didnt know if i'd ever need to set side ( like 1 widgt left & 1 widgt right), so i added it. I still cant layout stuff well, some of that is pack, and some is hboxes make children 'lefty' and vboxes make 'em 'toppy', and some is becuz I'm new to tickle/tkinter. Also will use diif from now on.
[18:31:44] <tomp> and thanks :)
[19:20:53] <alex_joni> http://sanlab.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/HAL/indexE.html
[19:25:18] <jepler> tomp: tk's "pack" is pretty confusing. That's one reason I prefer hiding it behind "vbox" and "hbox", because almost all sensible uses of 'pack' have the same 'side' for all contained widgets
[19:25:24] <nima> hello
[19:25:30] <jepler> welcome nima
[19:25:37] <Vq^> hello nima
[19:25:43] <nima> I am really new to writing machine code
[19:26:08] <tomp> jepler: i got that, nice idea
[19:26:14] <nima> so I will thank all of you ahead of time for your help and patience
[19:26:27] <jepler> tomp: I am pretty sure that was awallin's idea
[19:26:37] <jepler> nima: if you have some questions, please go ahead and ask them.
[19:26:42] <nima> thanks
[19:27:04] <nima> so I am using a CNC set up that isn't for machining parts
[19:27:31] <nima> so I have questions for machine codes that may sound stupid
[19:27:34] <jepler> what's it for?
[19:27:36] <nima> but necessary
[19:27:44] <nima> well, the long and short of it is this:
[19:27:58] <nima> I am tappering fiber optics for a physics lab that I work in
[19:28:35] <nima> we have two stages facing each other that clap down the fiber while another one is next to them that has a micro torche that heats up the fiber
[19:28:59] <nima> as the fiber is heated we stretch it with the two that it is clamped to
[19:29:06] <nima> so the code should be easy
[19:29:32] <nima> however I want to move two stages( x and y say) in opposite directions at a slow rate
[19:29:35] <nima> that is easy enough
[19:29:57] <jepler> yes, it should be easy to move them both together based on the passage of time
[19:29:58] <nima> but at the same time I wanna have the z axis to move back and fourth at a fast rate
[19:30:28] <tomp> the torch is on z?
[19:30:31] <nima> I can't put two f commands on the same line so I don't know if I have to group them or how to go about that
[19:30:32] <nima> yeah
[19:30:36] <nima> z is tourch
[19:30:38] <nima> torch
[19:30:55] <jepler> if you move x y and z together, the move is "coordinated", so that it reaches the final x, the final y, and the final z at the same time
[19:31:11] <nima> oh
[19:31:21] <nima> is that on the same line
[19:31:27] <nima> you mean
[19:31:52] <jepler> yes, when they're on the same line
[19:32:40] <nima> so can I run the x and y modal
[19:32:45] <jepler> if you start at (0,0,0) and write 'g1 x3 y4 f5' it will take about 1 minute total, and x will arrive at 3 at the same time y arrives at 5
[19:33:03] <jepler> (because the total cartesian distance moved is sqrt(3*3 + 4*4) = 5)
[19:33:12] <tomp> well, emc can move axis without 'machine codes' , without 'f', but with lower level control, like in a plc control thru 'hal' or thru 'classic-ladder'. trying to do this is 'machine codes' may not be the approach you want.
[19:34:25] <tomp> jepler: tell me if i'm wring, but i think we can move without gcode already, right?
[19:34:48] <jepler> so maybe you want to write a kind of "zigzag" pattern, each time moving x and y a small part of the distance. Like the following, but split into lines at each "/": g0x0y0z0 / f10 / g1x.1y.1z1 / g1x.2y.2z0 / g1x.3y.3z1 / m2
[19:35:01] <nima> so my stages aren't mounted so, jepler, would it really travel the hyp. of a triangle
[19:35:56] <nima> ohh that might work
[19:36:38] <jepler> nima: emc uses cartesian distance for XYZ moves, even if your machine isn't really put together that way
[19:36:52] <nima> ok
[19:37:17] <nima> I haven't looked into hal really
[19:37:34] <nima> maybe I should take a look at that if jepler's advice won't owrk
[19:37:35] <nima> work
[19:37:46] <tomp> jepler: this sounds like the welding thing done last year where a sinus generator was fed into one axis, while another moved, letting a tool of some sort wiggle along the path
[19:38:01] <tomp> none of that was gcode
[19:38:07] <jepler> nima: there's another feature of g-code that might be helpful for you. It's called "inverse time feed mode".
[19:38:22] <jepler> tomp: yeah that's true
[19:39:15] <jepler> nima: inverse time feed mode makes F5 mean "this motion should take 1/5 of a minute" instead of "this motion should go at 5 distance units per minute"
[19:40:07] <jepler> nima: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/gcode/main/#sub:G93_-G94:-Set
[19:41:03] <nima> thanks
[19:41:32] <nima> so I am going to read through hal and see if that can help if the easy method doesn't suffice
[19:41:51] <nima> I really appreciate the help and I will be back for more I am certain of that
[19:41:53] <nima> good day
[19:41:58] <jepler> nima: good luck
[19:41:58] <tomp> nima: look at jepler's idea. esp if you can come up with a constant dx dy dz
[19:42:00] <jepler> nima: come back any time
[19:42:55] <nima> yeah I will I think it could do the trick
[19:43:20] <nima> what I am doing is super simple compared to what could really be done with all of this hardware
[19:43:45] <nima> maybe I will set up some pics on a website when I get a chance and you can check it out
[19:44:59] <tomp> great! love to see it. i always thought you had to cut'em clean & polish the ends, this sounds better
[19:47:42] <nima> well we are only melting a mid section so we don't affect the in/out coupling
[19:47:54] <nima> it is a new techinic
[19:49:11] <nima> let me see if I can find something: this is another group at Cal TECH that uses tappered fibers to couple to mircotoroids
[19:49:17] <nima> http://www.vahala.caltech.edu/
[19:49:28] <nima> we will couple to microspheres
[19:50:18] <nima> the fig. in the bottom right is a really image and at the bottom is a fiber tappered to a few microns
[19:50:30] <Guest368> I need some help with tool radius compensation, i've read the manual and understand small bits but when I try I fail badly really appreciate some pointers
[19:50:36] <nima> bye all
[19:50:48] <tomp> bye nima
[19:51:41] <cradek> Guest368: that can be challenging to get right! what problem are you having?
[19:53:22] <jepler> that "vahala" stuff looks neat but I can hardly understand any of the words
[19:53:25] <Guest368> well basically I have entered the data for different tool radius in to the table but am ensure were in the code one put the command G41 or G42 to execute the compensation if that makes any sense
[19:54:29] <cradek> you have to program the entry move carefully - I'm trying to find the right documentation, one moment
[19:54:47] <Guest368> thanks
[19:57:20] <jepler> the old tool radius compensation doc is here: http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/RS274NGC_3/RS274NGC_38a.html#999268
[19:57:45] <cradek> thanks, that's what I was trying to find
[19:57:47] <Guest368> thanks alot i'll check it out
[19:58:42] <cradek> look especially at B.3.1, Entry moves
[19:59:28] <cradek> if you have a convex corner, the B.3.1.2 entry move is simpler to use
[19:59:44] <cradek> but if you don't (like in Figure 3) you need to program an arc like it shows
[19:59:55] <tomp> re tool comp, the pic on B.3.1.1 has an extra entry line between the linear offsetting and the tangennt entry arc that will be confusing, theres only a line and an arc to the entry ( where 2 dots are very close together )
[20:00:41] <cradek> tomp: you program the two moves C->B and B->A, but the interpreter DOES generate three compensated moves as shown
[20:01:03] <tomp> really? 3? whats the tiny one for?
[20:01:05] <cradek> the tiny one you see there is actually a small arc.
[20:02:18] <cradek> it goes "around" B to keep the tool from gouging into the B->A arc
[20:02:18] <pier> * pier is back (gone 02:59:02)
[20:02:36] <cradek> imagine C is to the left some more, the middle arc becomes more important
[20:03:03] <pier> hi all
[20:03:10] <pier> jepler: done
[20:03:14] <pier> that worked
[20:03:30] <pier> emc axis alive and kicking
[20:03:34] <pier> on gentoo
[20:03:55] <jepler> pier: my guess about rebuilding python was right?
[20:04:05] <pier> jepler: yes
[20:04:12] <pier> thanks
[20:04:29] <pier> I had to re-emerge python
[20:04:43] <pier> USE="tk" emerge python
[20:07:34] <pier> tk is a flag to tell the compiler to include tkinter
[20:10:53] <cradek> tomp: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/comp311.png
[20:11:59] <cradek> the highlighted move is the two entry arcs that are generated from the arc on line 18
[20:13:04] <tomp> cradek: thanks been looking at that, could not see neccesity if arc ba was tangential, and the motion during the 'extra' motion is far away from the path, so i didnt get the idea of a scar ( oh yeah i'm looking at the axis plot )
[20:13:32] <tomp> axis again is a nice debugging tool :)
[20:13:43] <erDiZz> I don't get it
[20:13:50] <erDiZz> what's that small arc for?
[20:14:00] <tomp> hey thats my question
[20:14:07] <cradek> erDiZz: to go around, instead of through, the entry arc's endpoint
[20:15:42] <erDiZz> cradek, I see, but the way I implemented compensation it would move by a straight line from the start to the end of that small arc
[20:16:12] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/comp311-2.png
[20:16:15] <awallin> cradek, tomp: what is the picture about?
[20:16:15] <erDiZz> so there'll be a corner between _one_ line and _one_ arc (the larger arc on your screenshot)
[20:16:23] <cradek> you can see much better here
[20:16:42] <erDiZz> cradek, that's a different case
[20:16:46] <cradek> ok, but if you do that the tool will cut through part of the second (programmed) arc
[20:16:51] <tomp> ok, i see the offset is full before the tool gets to the beginning of arc BA
[20:16:54] <cradek> no it's actually not
[20:17:02] <cradek> it just shows it better
[20:17:23] <erDiZz> cradek, no, the last case is just as I do
[20:17:49] <cradek> maybe I don't understand what you're saying
[20:18:11] <erDiZz> cradek, I'm trying to formulate it now, but my English isn't strong enogh :(
[20:18:13] <erDiZz> *enough
[20:18:15] <cradek> in both of these pictures if you eliminate the middle compensated arc, the tool will cut into programmed arc BA
[20:18:53] <erDiZz> cradek, In the first case the angle between the line and the arc is 180
[20:19:15] <erDiZz> if the angle is <=180 I do not generate a transition arc
[20:19:34] <cradek> then you are cutting into programmed arc BA
[20:19:41] <erDiZz> and in the second case it is > 180, and I do generate an arc (or two extra lines as an option)
[20:20:12] <erDiZz> hm
[20:20:18] <cradek> in order to not cut into programmed arc BA, C would have to make 180 degrees with the *compensated* arc, not the programmed arc
[20:20:54] <tomp> the xtra arc makes sure comp is full before the entry arc ( >just< before )
[20:21:04] <cradek> right tomp
[20:21:12] <erDiZz> cradek, I got it now
[20:21:13] <erDiZz> thanks
[20:21:21] <cradek> sure :-)
[20:21:52] <tomp> clever, AGie used to use a 'worm' a small pattern before the entry, now after 30 yrs, i get it :)
[20:24:31] <erDiZz> so maybe you could point me somewhere
[20:24:39] <erDiZz> imagine 4-axis wire EDM machine
[20:24:49] <tomp> yah
[20:25:03] <erDiZz> when XY and UV are at different points, the tool's plane is elliptic
[20:25:12] <tomp> yah
[20:25:17] <erDiZz> it there an agreed way of compensating that?
[20:25:29] <erDiZz> *is?
[20:25:36] <tomp> you know its pretty small!
[20:25:52] <erDiZz> tomp, negligible, you mean?
[20:26:17] <tomp> 5 degree tip of a .25 mm diameter is pretty small, and negligible is determined by your needs
[20:26:37] <tomp> i just meant its damn small :)
[20:26:41] <erDiZz> well, I've *heard from those who *heard that some swiss machines do the compensation :)
[20:27:02] <tomp> yeh, them swiss , pretty picky guys :)
[20:27:11] <erDiZz> yeah :)
[20:27:11] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/nc_files/comp311.ngc: example Fig.3 from handbook section B.3.1.1 - radius compensation entry move
[20:28:47] <tomp> erDiZz: i dont know of any papers on it, there's 2 main sources for such info tho, lemme get the titles, one's swiss & ones japanese...
[20:29:54] <cradek> I think we scared away Guest368
[20:30:52] <pier> now just remain the problem of being able to run emc as user.....
[20:30:54] <erDiZz> tomp, I did some calculations personally, and the solutions I have come up with are a bit limited... the limit is that the angle between two linear frames should not exceed, say, 15 degrees
[20:31:25] <erDiZz> It is bad in the sense that this breaks conventional compensation as well
[20:32:38] <erDiZz> I said "exceed", I ment "not smaller than"
[20:32:41] <cradek> erDiZz: how does your program handle concave corners?
[20:32:49] <pier> * pier is away: Out to the pub
[20:33:11] <cradek> erDiZz: cutting inside concave corners I mean
[20:33:34] <robin_sz> hmm
[20:33:55] <erDiZz> cradek, it finds a transition point
[20:34:03] <erDiZz> and goes to that point
[20:34:24] <cradek> so it leaves a fillet in the corner and doesn't error?
[20:34:34] <alex_joni> robin_sz: dude
[20:34:39] <robin_sz> although the tool is elliptic when viewed in Z, sureley, when tipped at say 5 degrees, the effective motion is now tilted too?
[20:34:52] <robin_sz> and viewed normal to that, its still a circle?
[20:35:03] <erDiZz> cradek, I think so, if I understand you right
[20:35:08] <cradek> EMC gives an error in that case - you have to program an arc >= the radius of the tool
[20:35:12] <cradek> interesting
[20:35:14] <robin_sz> alex_joni, dude! .. you might be right by the way Mr Joni ...
[20:35:26] <alex_joni> robin_sz: about what?
[20:35:28] <cradek> I've considered making EMC do that
[20:35:34] <erDiZz> cradek, the point is that if there is a concave corner with compensation then it's on purpose
[20:35:46] <robin_sz> well, we bought that Lorch machine
[20:35:50] <tomp> erDiZz: the ISEM and the JSEM both fairly expensive but very good sources, try to find a uni that does edm studies for industry ( Stuttgart does a some )
[20:36:10] <alex_joni> robin_sz: nice
[20:36:12] <alex_joni> I guess :)
[20:36:16] <cradek> the EMC folks decided that was an error, because the programmed shape cannot be cut with the tool - I really don't know if I agree or not
[20:36:20] <robin_sz> alex_joni, and two days later it went "pop" :(
[20:36:21] <erDiZz> tomp, thanks
[20:36:28] <alex_joni> robin_sz: oh. bonkers
[20:36:29] <robin_sz> heh
[20:36:47] <robin_sz> alex_joni, I put it down to bad luck, and they sent a new one out within a few hours
[20:36:56] <alex_joni> it happens sometimes
[20:36:57] <erDiZz> cradek, I wouldn be too picky about that, but
[20:37:01] <erDiZz> oh
[20:37:19] <robin_sz> alex_joni, yeah, if it going to go, its going to be early in the lifecycle ...
[20:37:20] <erDiZz> cradek, I wouldn't be too picky about that, but I don't have enough experience to state something
[20:37:21] <alex_joni> robin_sz: the new one better?
[20:37:33] <robin_sz> alex_joni, but if this one pops, well, then I'll worry
[20:37:46] <alex_joni> heh, I can undestand why :)
[20:37:50] <robin_sz> alex_joni, its the same as the last one right now .. working perfectly ... but ...
[20:37:53] <cradek> erDiZz: I think either approach can be argued perfectly sanely - I just wondered which you chose
[20:38:39] <tomp> erDiZz:: you can get indivifdual repreints from EDM Technology Transfer edmtt.com, and before i forget, i found some unique edm history http://www.aldrovandi.ch/erodieren_prinzip_agie.htm
[20:39:57] <erDiZz> tomp, looks interesting. will try to drop translate.google.com onto it...
[20:42:53] <erDiZz> cradek, let me stress you a bit. Did you mean the case when a concave corner is so small that the transition point in the usual sense it far-far away?
[20:43:09] <erDiZz> s/it/is/ (again)
[20:43:26] <cradek> not necessarily, but that's a particularly troubling case
[20:43:43] <tomp> erDiZz: this is great too, sorry but german is the language of EDM http://erosion.de/Wissenswertes/wissenswertes.html
[20:44:05] <erDiZz> cradek, yes, this "particulary troubling case" is a bad story for my planner, I haven't implemented it yet
[20:44:29] <erDiZz> just didn't want to pretend that mync does what it actually doesn't
[20:44:42] <cradek> any concave corner is trouble
[20:45:16] <cradek> if you have a square peg and you program a square hole for it to go in, then cut that hole leaving those fillets, the peg won't fit in it
[20:45:24] <awallin> tomp: are there any guides for DIY-EDM ? I'd be interested in cutting small parts in steel or titanium plates, maybe 1-2 mm thick
[20:45:30] <erDiZz> cradek, as I said, I take them as they are (and if they are too small - then it's a TODO, and I'm planning to report an error for that)
[20:45:59] <tomp> awallin: wire,sink,grind, or hole edm?
[20:46:00] <cradek> interesting, thanks
[20:46:53] <awallin> tomp: don't know, I just want to make parts :) something that could cut 1-2mm plates with a "cutter size/width" of sub-1 mm
[20:46:53] <erDiZz> tomp, do you speak German?
[20:47:19] <tomp> awallin: most people think wire edm ( the bandsaw like process ) and tools are near .25mm dia
[20:47:46] <tomp> erDiZz: i read a lot of prints, thats all ich nicht sprecehn zie deutche
[20:47:56] <erDiZz> tomp, cool :) wish I could
[20:48:21] <tomp> prints are easy, you got a picture next to the word :)
[20:49:01] <erDiZz> well... I'd call translate.google's output "acceptable". At least words have a meaning for me now
[20:49:09] <tomp> awallin: google 'indoor flyer' for DIY wedm
[20:49:12] <awallin> tomp: ok, but the wire needs to be fed continuously. that sounds complicated. I was hoping for something simple. Has anyone built a water-jet DIY ?
[20:49:55] <tomp> awallin: and there's a set of plans for <50$ too... lemme go find stuff
[20:51:00] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php?lang=it
[20:51:14] <tomp> awallin: dont use edm when you can do it any other way ( basic premise, its damn slow, but can do stuff other machining methods cant )
[20:51:36] <alex_joni> tomp: surely it's faster than using a spoon?
[20:52:01] <tomp> alex_joni: we got italian now :), and faster than spoon... only sometimes
[20:52:14] <alex_joni> probably lots of spoons :D
[20:52:38] <tomp> grazia mille, mille tante
[20:53:21] <awallin> tomp: maybe the water-jet stuff would be better then... for cutting parts in plates. but the pressures involved would be a bit dangerous for hobbyists I imagine
[20:53:23] <alex_joni> prego
[20:54:23] <tomp> water jet uses pressure amplifiers, big money
[20:54:42] <alex_joni> and nozzles are expensive as hell
[20:55:51] <tomp> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDMHomeBuilders
[20:57:27] <awallin> hrm... what would be a nice way of cutting plates then ? 1-2mm steel/titanium at first, but maybe thicker stuff later.
[20:58:27] <robin_sz> 1-2mm steel, laser
[20:58:37] <robin_sz> 1-2mm Ti, water jet
[20:58:41] <tomp> tolerance? (file or wedm ) quantity? ( die & punch or 1 off )
[20:59:24] <tomp> diy wedm http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10374.html
[20:59:24] <robin_sz> the really big lasers can manage 4mm Ti
[20:59:45] <robin_sz> * robin_sz doesnt bother to look
[21:00:02] <awallin> tomp: mostly small parts, they would maybe be 1-2mm across, so tolerance would be nice if it were about 0,1mm. This is a hobby for me, so quantity is low <100 per year
[21:00:52] <robin_sz> ah
[21:00:55] <robin_sz> wire edm then
[21:01:18] <robin_sz> 1-2mm across ans 1-2mm deep?
[21:01:22] <awallin> robin_sz: but that sounds so complicated to build...
[21:01:26] <tomp> sink edm, with ben flemings design, single slide, copper tools .1 smaller than final size, cheap
[21:01:48] <tomp> in a bucket of kerosene :)
[21:01:51] <awallin> robin_sz: yes, 1-2mm across, 1-2mm deep and maybe up to 50mm long, different kind of rectanges, circles, hooks etc
[21:01:57] <robin_sz> yeah, sinker might work , depending on the part sahpes
[21:02:09] <robin_sz> awallin, clocks?
[21:02:33] <awallin> robin_sz: right now it would be parts for model yachts, but all kinds of fine-mechanical stuff is interesting!
[21:02:58] <robin_sz> oh, so tolerance is not a problem
[21:03:18] <awallin> well, at least 0.1mm would be nice
[21:03:44] <awallin> I could probably mill some stuff like this, but with a 2mm endmill it would be slow and would waste material
[21:04:03] <robin_sz> faster than a wire edm or a sinker
[21:04:23] <tomp> http://www.timgoldstein.com/cnc/wedm.asp
[21:04:29] <robin_sz> with a wire, you can stack parts and cut several at once
[21:05:30] <awallin> robin_sz: wow, I did not know that. how big is the wire diam typically? I imagine the cut is as wide as the wire
[21:05:41] <robin_sz> .25?
[21:05:50] <tomp> i dunno how far graham got on his wedm project http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/edmwiki.htm
[21:07:10] <tomp> a .25 wire cuts a .3 slot ( extremely approximate ) bigger when faster, smaller when slower... remember this affects min corner radii
[21:07:28] <robin_sz> inner corner radii
[21:07:36] <robin_sz> outers are still perfect
[21:07:40] <tomp> right
[21:08:11] <robin_sz> and you need plenty of coolant
[21:08:29] <tomp> but thats water for cheapo wedm machines, not even di water
[21:08:39] <robin_sz> well yeah
[21:08:43] <robin_sz> di is easy anyway
[21:08:59] <robin_sz> just filter the crap out of it and then through a gel pack
[21:09:18] <tomp> add a pinch of salt to go faster :)
[21:09:33] <anonimasu> hi
[21:10:25] <awallin> tomp: robin_sz: thanks for the explanations, I need to read a bit on how it's done. certainly sounds interesting, and the parts made with the micro-wedm look really nice (3mm diam gears etc)
[21:10:33] <robin_sz> impressivel looking machien, considering it uses drawer runners for slides
[21:10:53] <tomp> awallin: take a look at tim goldstein's diy wedm, fromthe looks of the stuff on your website, you do nice work
[21:11:35] <tomp> so it wont be a problem for you
[21:12:57] <tomp> and, dymac (?) has made wedm work with emc, using rayh's adaptive feed idea, you're halfway there already
[21:13:45] <awallin> sounds good, I would just need some more time for hobby than I have right now :) didn't understand how the wire is fed in these designs yet...
[21:14:44] <tomp> ah here is Thomas Doerpinghaus... http://www.drahterosion.com/german/frames_d.htm
[21:16:07] <awallin> I'll be in austria next week, so by the end of the week I'll be reading and speaking german fluently...
[21:16:28] <alex_joni> awallin: cool, where?
[21:16:48] <awallin> Obergurgl, if that says anything to you
[21:17:08] <alex_joni> well.. I know what it means, and it makes me laugh..
[21:17:13] <alex_joni> but I have no idea where it is :D
[21:17:22] <alex_joni> how long are you staying ?
[21:17:37] <tomp> i have text2speech on my system you should have heard it say Obergurgl
[21:17:44] <awallin> http://www.esf.org/conferences/07220
[21:18:06] <alex_joni> that's very near to italy
[21:18:23] <awallin> going home on friday 9.2 no extra time there after the conference I'm afraid
[21:18:24] <alex_joni> I'll be driving through austria the next monday :)
[21:18:29] <alex_joni> 11.2
[21:18:44] <alex_joni> too bad :)
[21:19:45] <awallin> yeah, a missed chance for emc-euro-fest
[21:22:18] <awallin> damn, it's 23:20 and I'm still in the lab, need to go home... back later maybe
[21:25:17] <tomp> alex_joni: did that Japanese professor really need a robotic exoskeleton to pick up 3 bags of rice? ( makes me think he just made a pretty mockup, not for real )
[21:26:24] <anonimasu> hmm
[21:26:38] <alex_joni> tomp: he used the exoskeleton on people with disabilities
[21:26:55] <alex_joni> during rehab periods for example
[21:27:10] <alex_joni> and he very abruptly refused any cooperation with the military :D
[21:27:19] <tomp> oh, good idea, good for him, yes like an assisted motion
[21:28:14] <alex_joni> yup..
[21:30:39] <Jymmmm> I'm trying to mount energy chain to my machine, but the plug for the spindle is too large to feed thru the chain. If I cut the cord close to the spindle, anyone know of a good pair of connectors I could use that aren't heavy/bulky?
[21:34:11] <alex_joni> Jymmmm: the energy chains I worked with could be disassembled
[21:34:35] <Jymmmm> alex_joni these don't open like that
[21:34:49] <alex_joni> can't you just disassemble the plug?
[21:34:50] <Jymmmm> alex_joni and the opening is too small
[21:35:27] <Jymmmm> alex_joni: Once in a while I still use the router motor as a hand router.
[21:36:12] <alex_joni> get another cable for that?
[21:36:17] <fjungclaus___> fjungclaus___ is now known as fjungclaus
[21:36:37] <alex_joni> Jymmmm: can't help you with US plug types/names
[21:36:39] <Jymmmm> Even if I cut off the plug, string the wire thru the chain, then attach an replacement plug, I'd have to disassemble the plug each time I wanted to remove the spindle.
[21:38:10] <Jymmmm> alex_joni All you Romainians are all alike... No idea on US plugs, I only use metric, I want my M-TV , etc =)
[21:38:22] <alex_joni> hah
[21:38:42] <Jymmmm> alex_joni thought you'ld like that one =)
[21:41:12] <Jymmmm> I GUESS I coudl cut off the molded plug. I always HATE doing that, it looks so purrrty.
[21:42:58] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed..
[21:43:03] <Jymmmm> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
[21:43:10] <alex_joni> ' been a long week
[21:43:16] <Jymmmm> G'Night Alex
[21:43:16] <tomp> nite alex
[21:43:18] <alex_joni> night Jymmmm
[21:43:49] <alex_joni> night guys
[21:44:22] <anonimasu> night alex
[21:48:08] <Jymmmm> anonimasu how goes it?!
[21:48:18] <anonimasu> nicely
[21:48:19] <anonimasu> made parts all day
[21:48:41] <Jymmmm> anonimasu alumininuminuim or blue foam?
[21:49:07] <tomp> cvs diff -u lib/python/pyvcp_widgets.py > pwpydiff.txt is giving me a lot (13183bytes) of stuff thats mostly white space , any way around that?
[21:49:35] <anonimasu> Jymmmm: iron
[21:49:48] <Jymmmm> anonimasu" Ah, cool. What for?
[21:50:03] <anonimasu> work
[21:50:04] <anonimasu> :)
[21:50:14] <cradek> tomp: try -u -w
[21:50:21] <tomp> thanks
[21:50:24] <cradek> tomp: and be careful not to disturb whitespace in the future
[21:50:42] <jepler> tomp: if your editor changes the whitespace just by loading and saving a file, you should select a different editor
[21:50:46] <cradek> that's right
[21:51:13] <tomp> ah! and the if i ask what you use will i hear vi? ;)
[21:51:17] <cradek> actually you should set your editor on fire and run screaming
[21:51:24] <tomp> lol
[21:51:30] <cradek> lots of editors are sane and don't do that
[21:51:54] <anonimasu> there are still operations left on the blocks, but it's more a matter of changing 20 parts..
[21:53:20] <cradek> tomp: does your editor really reformat whitespace that you didn't touch? what editor is it?
[21:53:58] <tomp> kate, and a lot of the white space is in the cvs ( empty line with 5 or 6 spaces )
[21:54:32] <cradek> ok but I'm asking if it changed the whitespace on lines you didn't edit
[21:55:13] <cradek> I think I remember something about jmk having that problem with kate, and there was a setting somewhere ...???
[21:55:28] <tomp> hmmm, i'd need to compare 2 of my files to see that, an opened & and unopened version
[21:55:55] <tomp> will try that and compare with diff
[21:56:03] <cradek> it would be nice to know for sure that's what happens (because I think there's a setting to fix it)
[21:56:48] <jepler> I installed kate on an ubuntu 5 system and it doesn't seem to be fouling up the whitespace just by scrolling to the end and inserting a few characters
[21:56:54] <jepler> (breezy, that is)
[21:57:07] <cradek> ok, that's good
[21:57:40] <tomp> jepler: i didnt want to send you a diff full of white space
[21:57:47] <jepler> tomp: I appreciate that
[21:58:07] <jepler> In Settings > Configure Kate > Editor > Indentation there are a lot of options available
[21:58:24] <Jymmmm> * Jymmmm DCC's jepler a 10MB secret whitespace message
[21:58:40] <jepler> in ... > Editor > Open/Save there are two items called "Automatic Cleanup son Save"
[21:58:43] <jepler> you probably want to make sure they're both OFF
[21:58:50] <tomp> k
[21:58:57] <jepler> "Replace tabs with spaces" and "Remove trailing spaces"
[21:59:29] <cradek> http://diveintomark.org/public/2006/07/you-make-bunny-cry.jpg
[21:59:29] <Jymmmm> "Remove trailing spaces" really sucks for ascii art diagrams!
[21:59:30] <tomp> yeh, i wrote 'strippers' years ago, is this a setting in kate options?
[21:59:30] <jepler> As an experiment I turned those *on* and it gave me a 739-line diff
[22:00:17] <tomp> ok, that was what those 2 options did,,, doing that now
[22:04:01] <tomp> only 1 option Automatic Cleanups on load/save : remove trailing spaces was & is unchecked
[22:04:39] <tomp> but i used spaces instead of tabs to indent, isnt that the clean way? no inviso characters except EOL
[22:06:03] <jepler> If I get to set the Python coding standard for emc2, it's 4 spaces, never any tabs
[22:06:34] <tomp> right ( tho i might lean to 2 spaces, i'm cheap )
[22:07:52] <jepler> In my editor I press tab and get moved to the next multiple-of-4 -- I guess I assume everyone's editor can be configured to do this
[22:08:01] <jepler> It would be annoying to have to hit SPACE SPACE SPACE SPACE all the time
[22:09:42] <awallin> gediit, which comes with ubuntu works just like that. I also agree on 4 spaces.
[22:13:36] <anonimasu> ^_^
[22:16:47] <jepler> I agree with most things in pep 8 but I'm sure I often violate the rules http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
[22:24:25] <pier> * pier is back (gone 01:51:36)
[22:24:50] <cradek> pier: can you turn off your auto-away feature? it's silly
[22:25:01] <pier> sorry
[22:25:25] <cradek> no big deal, thanks
[22:25:32] <pier> done
[22:27:38] <eholmgren> silly how ... like a clown?
[22:45:28] <owad> I went to Radio Shack and bought a 2-pack of 1K 1W resistors for the unregulated linear power supply for my stepper drives. At 34V and 1K resistance, I should have had at least 1.1W, but RS didn't have anything better. I tried wiring hooking up one of the 1K 1W resistors, and the circuit worked, but I did get just a whiff that made me thinking I was pushing it a bit too far. So I turned the power supply off and let the caps drain, th
[22:52:09] <awallin> owad: what were the resistors for?
[22:52:15] <owad> bleed
[22:52:27] <awallin> oh, just to drain the caps faster
[22:52:34] <owad> right
[22:53:15] <owad> but after whatever I did, it now hums even with the resistors off
[22:55:18] <tomp> jepler: http://pastebin.ca/337671 finally got the whitespace out ( but the hard way )
[22:56:20] <tomp> owad: the transformer hums?
[22:57:05] <owad> I think so. I'm not sure how a cap would, but everything's so close, I really can't tell.
[22:57:16] <tomp> you can feel
[22:57:24] <tomp> carefully :)
[22:57:44] <owad> yeah… Last time I leaned in for a smell, a capacitor blew up in my face. :-)
[22:58:22] <owad> I guess I could disconnect the caps, and see if it still does it
[22:58:58] <tomp> ok, msr before touching, the cap may still be charged
[23:05:20] <robin_sz> at 1W dissipation, expect it to get at least warm
[23:05:29] <robin_sz> if not hot
[23:05:40] <robin_sz> it might get up to 100+ degrees c
[23:06:02] <robin_sz> so, yeah, you might even smell it
[23:22:11] <CIA-8> 03flo-h 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/po/Submakefile: xgettext needs an extra parameter to extraxt strings from C
[23:22:30] <CIA-8> 03flo-h 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/po/Submakefile: xgettext needs an extra parameter to extraxt strings from C
[23:43:51] <crepincdotcom> what CAM software do you guys tend to use? I've used Esprit in school but 1) it's windows and 2) I can't make it run for the life of me
[23:45:53] <cradek> I don't have any - I write gcode by hand or generate it with simple homemade programs
[23:46:04] <anonimasu> well, both mastercam and visualmill works very well with emc
[23:46:19] <crepincdotcom> ahh. i dont mind doing that, except I was hoping to do some engraving. and I obviously cant write nc code by hand to do fonts
[23:46:26] <crepincdotcom> anonimasu: ok thanks
[23:46:30] <cradek> it looks like gcam is coming along nicely, but I haven't tried to use it yet
[23:46:45] <crepincdotcom> ill look into it
[23:46:47] <cradek> crepincdotcom: for that, use truetype-tracer
[23:47:05] <cradek> it's in the emc2 repository, or you can get it at timeguy.com
[23:47:21] <crepincdotcom> cradek: does it work well? i tend to take small OS projects with a grain of salt.... spend all night getting the dependencies and then find out its broken
[23:47:27] <crepincdotcom> ok ill work on that
[23:47:32] <cradek> if you installed with the emc2 livecd, you already have it
[23:47:42] <crepincdotcom> aha, i did
[23:48:09] <cradek> sorry you feel that way about programs people give you for free
[23:48:24] <crepincdotcom> hey hey hey, im not dissing them by any means
[23:48:59] <cradek> sorry
[23:49:08] <crepincdotcom> i'v working on a bunch of OS projects, and know how broken my own things can be at times
[23:49:58] <crepincdotcom> *worked
[23:50:51] <cradek> truetype-tracer "it's free" >free.ngc
[23:51:12] <cradek> (that's what made the AXIS splash screen)
[23:51:15] <crepincdotcom> are there docs i can read?
[23:51:20] <crepincdotcom> oh sweet
[23:51:21] <cradek> man truetype-tracer
[23:51:30] <crepincdotcom> ah man pages, k
[23:53:30] <crepincdotcom> the man page doesnt address sizeing, is there a nc-code way to scale all of the values?
[23:53:35] <jepler> yep
[23:53:38] <jepler> look near the top of the generated code
[23:53:51] <crepincdotcom> that would be a good idea, wouldnt it :-p
[23:54:02] <jepler> you can define several important things, one is a scale factor
[23:54:32] <crepincdotcom> ah great
[23:54:43] <crepincdotcom> so z0 is the surface of the part then?
[23:55:28] <jepler> yes
[23:55:32] <crepincdotcom> ok
[23:58:02] <jepler> you can use "touch off" in axis to move z0 to the surface of the part
[23:59:27] <crepincdotcom> "touch off"?
[23:59:38] <jepler> it's a button in the AXIS gui
[23:59:42] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xozBwNbrqI&mode=related&search=