#emc | Logs for 2006-12-20

[00:02:10] <jepler> cradek: my pluto no longer gets very warm while running the test hal file
[00:04:10] <jmkasunich> what did you change?
[00:08:21] <jepler> jmkasunich: no idea
[00:09:28] <jepler> cradek said his never did, so it can't be "recompiled the firmware many times"
[01:04:27] <jmkasunich> gawd, sdp/si must be serving their website from a 56K modem
[01:14:40] <ejholmgren> heh
[01:15:45] <ejholmgren> the printed catalogs on my shelf are "faster"
[01:16:22] <jmkasunich> my only printed catalog from them is ancient
[01:16:27] <jmkasunich> and doesn't have proces
[01:16:29] <jmkasunich> prices
[01:16:42] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure if the website has gotten with the program and has pricing or not
[01:17:00] <jmkasunich> it looks like their stuff is too small for what I need anyway
[01:17:19] <ejholmgren> what are you driving?
[01:17:28] <jmkasunich> shoptask lathe spindle
[01:17:44] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom
[01:18:39] <jmkasunich> doesn't look like I can do 4:1 reduction in one stage
[01:22:23] <ejholmgren> oh geez, that site is slooooooowww
[01:23:08] <jmkasunich> didn't believe me didja?
[01:25:01] <ejholmgren> 3/4" L timing belt wouldn't be enough?
[01:25:26] <jmkasunich> marginal I think
[01:25:30] <jmkasunich> 3/4 H would be better
[01:25:36] <jmkasunich> I think
[01:25:48] <jmkasunich> filtering the actual limitations out of the info presented isn't fun
[01:25:52] <ejholmgren> what pitch is H ?
[01:25:56] <jmkasunich> (I'm using some documents from Gates right now)
[01:25:57] <jmkasunich> 0.5
[02:32:30] <A-L-P-H-A> lalala.
[02:32:35] <A-L-P-H-A> sup folks?
[02:33:33] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, timing gears... google, toronto gear works. I think they have their catalogue online
[02:33:51] <jmkasunich> thanks, will do
[02:34:17] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.torontogear.com/specifics.html
[02:34:30] <A-L-P-H-A> ooooooooooh. they wnat your email
[02:34:31] <A-L-P-H-A> sorry dude.
[02:34:41] <A-L-P-H-A> they're local to me... so I order from them direct.
[02:34:44] <A-L-P-H-A> really GOOD prices.
[02:35:05] <A-L-P-H-A> usuall cheaper than I can make it for, if I include my time.
[02:36:00] <A-L-P-H-A> still recommend you giving them your info to get a catalogue.... I have a printed version, otherwise I'd just share
[02:36:20] <A-L-P-H-A> Welcome Guest122
[02:36:40] <Guest122> hi having trubs with the live cd install
[02:36:46] <A-L-P-H-A> such as?
[02:37:15] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni is the maintainer of that... and he won't be around for another few hours... as he's sleeping.
[02:37:31] <Guest122> Well everything installs OK but I never get chance to supply a root password is ther a default
[02:38:19] <A-L-P-H-A> blank?
[02:38:36] <Guest122> no tried that.
[02:38:40] <A-L-P-H-A> ubuntu, you don't log in as root.
[02:38:46] <jmkasunich> sudo is the way
[02:38:57] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd recommend, getting ubuntu 6.06 LTS, and getting EMC via that method.
[02:39:27] <Guest122> yea that was what I was thinking I might do.
[02:39:34] <A-L-P-H-A> that's how I did it.
[02:39:54] <Guest122> even sudo is going to ask for a password isnt it
[02:40:29] <jmkasunich> use your regular user password
[02:40:59] <Guest122> ok thanks for that will go and try that now see you latter
[02:41:07] <Guest122> cheers
[02:58:03] <tom_cnc1> there's this dead mazak sitting outside, palletized, about a block from my shop. i don't need another project, but it's still tempting
[02:58:25] <tom_cnc1> i'd love to have a cnc lathe
[03:02:01] <tom_cnc1> but first... gotta get the mill running. I got a check in the mail today, so I'm going to order my encoders tomorrow from US digital
[03:03:30] <tom_cnc1> I think I'm going to get three Gecko g320 drivers to begin with, then work with skunkworks to get a 45A driver circuit working w/ a Mesa m5i20 board next month
[03:04:19] <tom_cnc1> so initially, I'll be using Mach, but will migrate to EMC in February or so (and I have a fallback if I can't get something to work for some reason)
[03:04:46] <tom_cnc1> heh, i'll repeat that for skunkworks:
[03:04:55] <tom_cnc1> but first... gotta get the mill running. I got a check in the mail today, so I'm going to order my encoders tomorrow from US digital
[03:05:02] <tom_cnc1> I think I'm going to get three Gecko g320 drivers to begin with, then work with skunkworks to get a 45A driver circuit working w/ a Mesa m5i20 board next month
[03:05:09] <tom_cnc1> so initially, I'll be using Mach, but will migrate to EMC in February or so (and I have a fallback if I can't get something to work for some reason)
[03:05:39] <tom_cnc1> *44A driver (not that it matters, will only get 20-30A out unless I use liquid nitrogen for cooling)
[03:05:50] <skunkworks> ok - good
[03:06:06] <skunkworks> ;)
[03:06:23] <tom_cnc1> I have a couple of paying projects so I need to get it up and running soon, which will pay for development of stuff later. :)
[03:06:23] <skunkworks> I was going to say - 44amps is not going to happen
[03:07:06] <tom_cnc1> yeah, .12ohm is pretty high. I have a mosfet on another board that only have .04 ohm equiv, and my does it make a huge difference - don't even need a heat sink on it
[03:07:17] <skunkworks> why use mach - emc will to step and direction just fine.
[03:07:22] <tom_cnc1> 'course, it's a 30V, 3.5A circuit
[03:07:48] <skunkworks> normally - the higher the voltage - the higher the Rds from my limited experience.
[03:08:10] <tom_cnc1> i want to try out mach. for $160, it makes sense to have a choice. if it were $1000 or even $400, I wouldn't, but it only takes a couple of paid hours to pay for the software at $160
[03:08:20] <skunkworks> but remember I am no expert. jmk is the mosfet master. ;)
[03:09:18] <tom_cnc1> yes, i know, and that's one reason I'm not going to rely on your circuit - I'm no master either, and have seen MOSFETs arc due to back EMF before. it's pretty, but seems a good chance that could happen on the first go-around
[03:09:22] <tom_cnc1> y:)
[03:09:51] <tom_cnc1> * tom_cnc1 likes bright flashing lights, even if it does let the smoke out
[03:10:04] <tom_cnc1> tom_cnc1 is now known as tom_aip
[03:11:47] <tom_aip> so I was planning on getting encoders from US Digital, just because I've ordered from there before and they worked. anyone know of another place that's cheaper or better?
[03:12:07] <skunkworks> I need to make a bigger power supply next. I have a 6kva transfomer lined up. playing around with these servos - I almost flipped it on the floor ;)
[03:12:08] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/DSC_0242.JPG
[03:12:23] <skunkworks> automationdirect
[03:12:39] <tom_aip> it's $80 for 1000 cpr. ok, will take a look at them
[03:13:00] <tom_aip> that's quite a motor - i used a clamp to hold down my motor when testing, looks like you'd need a vice
[03:13:35] <skunkworks> :) it will be bolted down for the next testing
[03:13:53] <skunkworks> automation something. trying to find the link
[03:14:01] <tom_aip> light duty, medium duty, or heavy duty - which best describes a cnc machine?
[03:14:13] <tom_aip> (yeah, found automationdirect.com, looks good)
[03:14:24] <tom_aip> (er, the duty refers to an encoder)
[03:14:34] <skunkworks> depends ;) I am cheap and try the 80 dollar ones. and go from there
[03:16:10] <skunkworks> http://web6.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Sensors_-z-_Encoders/Encoders/Light_Duty_Standard_Shaft_(TRD-S_Series)/TRD-S1000-VD
[03:16:30] <tom_aip> they are $80.90 at us digital, $81.50 on automationdirect. I'll save the $1.80 and buy at us digital. :)
[03:16:40] <skunkworks> that is what I want to play with.
[03:16:45] <skunkworks> the same thing?
[03:17:10] <skunkworks> I don't remember finding any shaft style encoders on usdigital for that price
[03:17:47] <tom_aip> http://www.usdigital.com/products/h15s/
[03:18:30] <skunkworks> join emc-devel
[03:18:33] <skunkworks> oops
[03:18:55] <skunkworks> logger_emc bookmark
[03:18:57] <tom_aip> .25" shaft instead of 6mm, too
[03:19:00] <skunkworks> one more time
[03:19:11] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[03:19:11] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-12-20.txt
[03:20:06] <skunkworks> those are plastic cases - the automation direct ones look like they are metal cases
[03:21:20] <tom_aip> yep, diecast aluminum for automation direct. Hmm...
[03:22:34] <tom_aip> the faces of the us digital encoders are anodized aluminum w/SS cleats
[03:22:47] <tom_aip> it's just the body that's plastic
[03:33:19] <tom_aip> I'll go see which is easier to mount tomorrow before ordering, thanks for the suggestion
[04:10:14] <tom_cnc> tom_cnc is now known as aip_tom
[04:10:51] <aip_tom> * aip_tom thinks it's time to register a nick... keep getting booted
[04:13:19] <skunkworks> booted?
[04:14:02] <aip_tom> it forces a re-join if someone else with the same nick is online
[04:14:51] <aip_tom> it told me i was disconnected, and then I re-joined - perhaps there was no message on the channel? i thought there'd be one
[04:15:52] <jtr> i saw a tom_cnc has joined, but nothing showint tom_aip left
[04:16:02] <skunkworks> anyone know what to when the computer shuts down during a update manager (ubuntu) and not it says you cant run 2 instances of it? I was told to delete a lock directory but it still isn't working.
[04:16:05] <skunkworks> same here
[04:16:07] <jtr> s/showint/showing/
[04:16:18] <aip_tom> odd.
[04:16:43] <jepler> skunkworks: like this? E: Could not get lock /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (11 Resource temporarily unavailable)
[04:16:56] <jepler> I assume you'd just 'sudo rm -f /var/lib/apt/lists/lock'
[04:17:29] <jepler> if you want to pastebin the output from 'sudo apt-get update' I'll try to help
[04:17:35] <jtr> tom_aip still showing up in the (user? list) - what's that called, anyway?
[04:17:55] <skunkworks> ok - probably won't happen until tomarrow. Thanks jepler
[04:18:34] <skunkworks> jepler: its past your bed time ;)
[04:18:40] <jepler> skunkworks: I know
[04:19:01] <jepler> did you see that I got the "official pinout" pluto files into CVS?
[04:19:33] <skunkworks> jepler: no - cool. will look at it.
[04:20:49] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/quartus-no-error.png
[04:21:33] <skunkworks> :)
[04:23:52] <skunkworks> jepler: what does the -f do? I didn't do that
[04:28:38] <skunkworks> ok - means force
[04:45:45] <tomp> i have a system that wont boot from flash... not emc, an edm controll, there is no rom, no disk, no cd
[04:46:00] <tomp> it says BOOT FAILURE please insert diskette
[04:46:08] <tomp> any ideas what to try?
[04:46:22] <tomp> it used to work :(
[04:49:11] <jmkasunich> any europeans around?
[04:49:54] <jmkasunich> A metric hub is described as being 35mm bore, with a 10x3.3 keyway
[04:49:59] <jmkasunich> I know what 35mm bore means
[04:50:27] <jmkasunich> and I'm pretty sure that 10mm, is the width of the key, but that seems pretty wide
[04:50:56] <tomp> wide for a 35mm bore fer sure
[04:51:18] <jmkasunich> but this seems to show 10mm as a standard for 35mm
[04:51:19] <jmkasunich> http://www.jwwinco.com/technical/keyway.htm
[04:51:34] <jmkasunich> maybe metric stuff uses wider than normal keys?
[04:51:52] <jmkasunich> my problem is that my lathe has a 35mm spindle shaft, to which I want to fit a new pulley
[04:51:59] <jmkasunich> and the key is 6mm wide
[04:52:12] <jmkasunich> so I can't find anything with the right keyway
[04:52:33] <jmkasunich> I don't have a keyway broach, and don't really want to get one for this
[04:52:40] <jmkasunich> they scare me
[04:53:13] <tomp> picutre looks right, so 3.3 might be depth, and you might use a stepped key for your problem ( got 2 keyways already or 1?)
[04:53:25] <jmkasunich> one keyway
[04:53:34] <jmkasunich> about 19mm long, rounded ends
[04:53:39] <jmkasunich> (both ends closed
[04:54:05] <jmkasunich> I suppose a stepped key isn't too insane
[04:54:16] <jmkasunich> 10mm wide, stepped to 6 to go into the shaft keyway
[04:54:37] <tomp> ?consider no keyway... a collet like hub center ( mcmaster carr )
[04:54:49] <jmkasunich> like a QD bushing?
[04:54:54] <tomp> yes
[04:54:55] <jmkasunich> already looking at those
[04:55:05] <jmkasunich> the thing is, there is a bearing in the picture
[04:55:10] <jmkasunich> stackup is:
[04:55:26] <jtr> or the fenner trantorque bushings
[04:55:29] <jmkasunich> inner race of tapered roller bearing
[04:55:33] <jmkasunich> spacer sleeve
[04:55:36] <jmkasunich> pulley
[04:55:41] <jmkasunich> adjusting nut
[04:55:57] <jmkasunich> locking washer (with tabs you're supposed to bend into notches on the nut)
[04:56:00] <jmkasunich> locking nut
[04:56:17] <tomp> on the 3in1 headstock?
[04:56:23] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:56:32] <jmkasunich> the axial force from the nuts is the bearing preload
[04:56:51] <jmkasunich> so a collet type bushing in there, with a positive grip on the shaft, probably isn't a good thing
[04:57:03] <jmkasunich> although maybe it works
[04:57:14] <jmkasunich> those things don't move axially when you tighten them do they?
[04:57:23] <tomp> yes mine did
[04:57:35] <jmkasunich> the QD bushings I mean
[04:58:05] <jmkasunich> install spacer, then pulley with loose bushing
[04:58:16] <jmkasunich> set up bearings with nuts, then tighten bushing
[04:58:38] <tomp> yes, the qd and whatever they are coming to grips with...they move simultaneoulsly in diff directions, guess work to end up at the right level for belts
[04:58:42] <jmkasunich> as long as the bushing only clamps radially on the shaft, and doesn't try to move axially, all is well
[04:59:07] <jmkasunich> yeah, the pulley moves as you tighten it
[04:59:35] <jmkasunich> but the bushing part stays put on the shaft (at least if its clamped between a spacer and a nut it will)
[05:00:00] <tomp> oh,i am wrong... the bush didnt, the pulley did , i didnt know how far it would move ( would the flange seat or not before fully tight)
[05:00:30] <jmkasunich> in my case, I'll let the pulley go where it wants, then adjust the motor pulley to match
[05:00:41] <tomp> handy option
[05:02:06] <jmkasunich> now I gotta decide what kind of belt to use
[05:02:20] <jmkasunich> need lots of torque with no slippage, and smooth quiet operation
[05:02:23] <tomp> gates power belts
[05:02:33] <tomp> 50 mm wide :)
[05:02:44] <jmkasunich> heh, thats a little overkill
[05:03:16] <tomp> 50, 30, 25, and others avaiable (mcmaster carr again )
[05:03:49] <jmkasunich> I think double v-belts would do it, a 10 rib J section multi-v might be ok, or a 1" type H toothbelt, or a 20mm HTD timing belt
[05:04:08] <jmkasunich> McMaster Carr is my bible for things like this
[05:04:13] <jmkasunich> and Gates for tech info
[05:05:31] <jmkasunich> toothbelts have plenty of guts for the job, but I'm worried about noise
[05:05:40] <tomp> if you use the timing belts, you'd change the pulley you have, and might go back to the QD idea
[05:05:58] <tomp> i dont hear this 50mm at 3.3m/min
[05:06:15] <jmkasunich> 3.3m/min? thats very slow
[05:06:28] <jmkasunich> 10 ft/min
[05:06:42] <tomp> fast for edm:)
[05:06:50] <jmkasunich> true
[05:06:59] <jmkasunich> but slow for being able to comment on noise ;-)
[05:08:03] <jmkasunich> V-belt is definitely the cheapest - two-groove 6" pulley is ~$44, plus the bushing for $15
[05:08:38] <jmkasunich> micro-groove 10 rib is $80 plus hub
[05:08:42] <tomp> oh good, my panic fax to taiwan has a reply... in freakin CHINESE!! grfffffff arrrgggh!
[05:09:27] <jmkasunich> type H timing belt: $65 plus hub
[05:09:48] <jmkasunich> HTD timing belt $85 plus hub
[05:09:56] <ejholmgren> jmkasunich: looked here yet? http://www.econobelt.com/
[05:10:36] <ejholmgren> some of the larger metric sizes have a pitch close to .4"
[05:11:00] <jmkasunich> no pricing
[05:11:39] <jmkasunich> duh "click on catalog number to request a quote"
[05:11:45] <ejholmgren> html version of the catalog does
[05:11:50] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich clicks and waits
[05:12:14] <jmkasunich> first time nothing happened, 2nd time got a price
[05:12:15] <jmkasunich> nice
[05:12:38] <ejholmgren> maybe you insulted javascript's mother? :/
[05:13:20] <jmkasunich> not seeing any large (~6" dia) ones at that site
[05:13:43] <ejholmgren> yeah, me either
[05:13:51] <ejholmgren> nothing more than 29-25 teeth
[05:13:55] <ejholmgren> 19-25
[05:14:14] <jmkasunich> and they have MXL, XL, and L, but not H, in the other style of timing belt
[05:14:25] <jmkasunich> seems like a good source for smaller stuff, just not the biggies
[05:14:53] <jmkasunich> definitely bookmarked
[05:14:54] <ejholmgren> have you found a place that can source H yet?
[05:15:13] <jmkasunich> Mcmaster has them
[05:16:02] <jmkasunich> doh - they do have bigger ones
[05:16:20] <jmkasunich> theres a drop-down list at the top of the page that sets a style and tooth count range
[05:16:30] <jmkasunich> the default for HTD8 is 22-48 teeth
[05:17:22] <jmkasunich> definitely cheaper than mcmaster
[05:17:28] <ejholmgren> I thought it was a bit odd that you could barely get a 1:1.5 drive ration with any of those combinations
[05:17:35] <ejholmgren> ratio
[05:18:23] <jmkasunich> HTD8 56 tooth: McMaster $$85, QTC $46
[05:18:55] <jmkasunich> although the McM one accepts a QD bushing that will let me fit it to my 35mm spindle
[05:19:05] <jmkasunich> the QTC one has a 16mm bore
[05:21:25] <ejholmgren> are you going to over or under drive the spindle?
[05:21:32] <jmkasunich> ?
[05:21:40] <jmkasunich> you mean step up or step down speed?
[05:23:11] <ejholmgren> yes
[05:23:18] <jmkasunich> both ;-)
[05:23:28] <jmkasunich> low range needs to be about a 4:1 step down
[05:23:37] <jmkasunich> high range, about a 4:5 step up
[05:24:18] <ejholmgren> just swapping pullies as you see fit then?
[05:24:33] <jmkasunich> hopefully easier than that
[05:24:43] <jmkasunich> relax belt tension, move to another pulley
[05:25:04] <jmkasunich> either step pulleys (only 2 steps), or direct from motor vs. thru a countershaft
[05:25:16] <tomp> snowmobile transmission?
[05:25:28] <tomp> moving cones
[05:26:28] <tomp> like variable speed bridgeports
[05:27:24] <jmkasunich> hadn't really considered that
[05:27:39] <jmkasunich> I'm going go have a VFD, so I really only need high and low
[05:27:44] <jmkasunich> but I should look into it
[05:30:29] <tomp> i like this name of this company (snowmo trans) "hoffco comet" http://www.hoffcocomet.com/comet/aftermarket-torque-converters.asp#20
[05:31:20] <tomp> but i'd likely go to a boneyard for such a transmission ( or see what I can snag in the lak :)
[05:31:50] <jmkasunich> I definitely don't want something that changes ratios automatically like that
[05:31:55] <ejholmgren> maybe you'll even find a fullsize truck or two
[05:32:23] <ejholmgren> spindle
[05:32:26] <ejholmgren> oops
[05:33:06] <tomp> you would want to control the cones directly, yes
[06:37:21] <ejholmgren>
[06:47:01] <ejholmgren> this is another random question ...
[06:47:34] <ejholmgren> can a bezier exist in 3d, or are the control points stricly 2d?
[06:47:48] <jmkasunich> most splines can exist in Nd
[06:48:38] <jmkasunich> in fact the simplest version of a spline is 1d
[06:49:03] <jmkasunich> for multiple dimensions, you just compute multiple splines, the dimensions don't interact
[07:30:17] <ejholmgren> ef ... bedtime, work in 7 hrs
[07:30:20] <ejholmgren> later
[08:17:40] <^eugenics> Hello folks
[09:11:02] <anonimasu> morning
[09:23:14] <Vq^> g'day
[09:29:06] <anonimasu> what's up?
[09:32:59] <Vq^> writing some code
[09:35:07] <anonimasu> nice
[09:35:10] <anonimasu> same with me
[09:40:41] <Vq^> great :)
[09:40:47] <Vq^> what language?
[09:42:39] <anonimasu> IEC61131-3
[09:43:59] <anonimasu> ^_^
[09:47:23] <anonimasu> finished the GPS stuff..
[09:47:28] <anonimasu> for talking to a pc
[09:59:37] <^eugenics> anonimasu: what are you up to, what kind of hardware are you working on?
[09:59:57] <Vq^> special name
[10:01:48] <anonimasu> some plc..
[10:01:50] <anonimasu> www.sigmatek.at
[10:01:59] <^eugenics> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
[10:02:31] <anonimasu> brb lunch
[10:03:07] <^eugenics> bon apetit!
[10:54:41] <anonimasu> thanks :)
[11:05:03] <^eugenics> smakade det bra? ;)
[11:05:33] <^eugenics> anonimasu: Are you getting payed for the work?
[11:34:51] <anonimasu> ^eugenics: what of work?
[11:35:06] <anonimasu> ^eugenics: ofcourse I am :)
[11:35:19] <anonimasu> ^eugenics: the stuff im doing on my mill is my own hobby stuff though
[11:35:30] <anonimasu> the other stuff is for the machines we manufacture
[11:36:40] <anonimasu> ^eugenics: yes it tasted good :)
[11:58:56] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[11:59:02] <anonimasu> why do you get so tired after eating ?
[12:19:49] <^eugenics> anonimasu: Nice for you, Im looking for smaller jobs to do, I have all the paperwork done so it will be legal. So if anyone needs help with something dont hesitate to discuss thqt with me.
[12:21:17] <anonimasu> :/
[12:21:47] <anonimasu> rough
[12:22:30] <^eugenics> I know, its not easy to get clients.
[12:26:30] <anonimasu> im happy that I've got stuff to do
[12:29:18] <anonimasu> now to see if gplot will graph my sensor data :9
[12:29:19] <anonimasu> :)
[12:38:05] <^eugenics> What is the GPS short for in your project? I guess its not a navigation tool :)
[12:41:22] <anonimasu> it's for logging area/distance
[12:42:45] <^eugenics> cool, what is the product sopposed to be used for? Agriculture?
[12:43:40] <anonimasu> ^eugenics: forestry.. or something
[12:44:24] <^eugenics> ok
[12:54:44] <anonimasu> :)
[13:17:31] <skunkworks> jepler: I did the apt-get update again (after deleting the lock directory I thought I could just rerun the update manager - I could not) and this time instead of telling me there was a bunch of locks - it told be there was some bad packages and I needed to run apt-get something -- configure. that seemed to fix it.
[13:17:47] <skunkworks> thansl
[13:17:53] <skunkworks> thanks
[13:40:48] <alex_joni> * alex_joni mumbles something bad about xp
[13:47:03] <skunkworks> morning alex
[13:48:27] <skunkworks> I got ndiswrapper installed - now I need to figure out if I can get this wireless card to work ;)
[13:49:11] <alex_joni> :)
[13:51:12] <skunkworks> * skunkworks still haven't run a latency test on it.
[13:51:18] <skunkworks> hasn't
[13:56:29] <alex_joni> bbl
[14:02:52] <anonimasu> :)
[14:10:43] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: hwo was the flight
[14:10:46] <skunkworks> how
[14:10:56] <SWPadnos> long but relatively uneventful
[14:11:03] <skunkworks> thats good
[14:11:11] <SWPadnos> yes indeed
[14:11:35] <skunkworks> well the latency test ran for a bit and instantly had 5 over-runs
[14:12:03] <skunkworks> and there is nothing in the bios about frequency scaling or power saving.
[14:12:06] <skunkworks> oh well
[14:12:29] <SWPadnos> on a laptop, mini-ITX machine, quad-processor server? what?
[14:12:31] <skunkworks> still works for playing with emc2 and ubuntu
[14:12:42] <skunkworks> portable dell
[14:13:03] <skunkworks> 1.7ghz pentium m
[14:13:26] <SWPadnos> ah - the M shoudl clue you in ...
[14:13:28] <SWPadnos> should
[14:13:40] <skunkworks> :)
[14:16:25] <^eugenics> skunkworks: I wish you good luck, I had some stability problems with ndiswrapper before
[14:16:43] <skunkworks> I have read about it.
[14:17:14] <skunkworks> sounds like I need to copie the .sys files that xp uses to ubuntu and give it a try
[14:17:40] <skunkworks> ^eugenics: whae did you end up using?
[14:17:43] <skunkworks> what
[14:18:07] <^eugenics> I changed card to use a native driver
[14:18:12] <skunkworks> or did you end up buying a wireless card that linux could see
[14:18:16] <^eugenics> madwifi is my favorite
[14:18:17] <skunkworks> ah
[14:25:44] <jepler> SWPadnos: welcome back to the world
[14:25:52] <SWPadnos> thanks jepler
[14:26:31] <SWPadnos> I would have been around more, but the hotel in the UK charged £15 / day for internet access
[14:26:44] <SWPadnos> ( O_O )
[14:27:30] <jepler> I'd have trouble paying that too
[14:27:35] <jepler> just to talk to people like me
[14:27:41] <SWPadnos> yeah, considering it's the monthly fee for DSL at home ...
[14:27:52] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - I hadn't even considered that point ;)
[14:31:16] <skunkworks> you guys
[14:31:29] <aip_tom> i get about 100 kbps through my treo via sprint and PdaNet. i haven't paid a wireless fee in two years (admittedly, only in populated areas or along highways)
[14:32:11] <SWPadnos> I'm relatively sure that wouldn't work in the UK, without exceedingly high fees (unless you're in the UK already, in which case it wouldn't work in the US ...)
[14:32:49] <aip_tom> it's $15/mo, unlimited. then again, it's only twice as fast as a 56k modem, so I only use it when I have to
[14:33:14] <aip_tom> yeah, probably not a solution offered in the UK. I think things are bad here in the US, then I look at the UK and think that things could be worse, in some ways. :)
[14:33:55] <SWPadnos> well, it's cheap and effective for them, but not for us traveling there
[14:34:30] <SWPadnos> I rented a phone (for $30 or so), and bought a SIM card to use there. it was 5p/minute to call the US
[14:34:38] <SWPadnos> (and 15p/min to call UK numbers :) )
[14:35:00] <SWPadnos> crap - I need to send that out today - good thing I reminded myself
[14:35:41] <aip_tom> heh
[14:38:37] <aip_tom> hey, is it too late to get in on the group buy at Mesa?
[14:38:46] <SWPadnos> not too late
[14:39:35] <SWPadnos> in fact, I'm surprised cradek hasn't signed up yet (wink wink, nudge nudge)
[14:39:38] <aip_tom> cool, I'd like to get one of the m5i20's and a 7i37
[14:40:03] <aip_tom> yeah, it's a really cool solution. offloading all the work to the FPGA just makes lots of sense
[14:40:07] <SWPadnos> ok. can you email me and jmk with your address?
[14:40:19] <SWPadnos> at least the fast stuff - floating point in an FPGA isn't really that great
[14:40:50] <aip_tom> sure, i'm actually just a few miles from Mesa in Berkeley
[14:40:51] <SWPadnos> though it would be interesting to make an FPGA config that does the PIDFF internally, and see if we need more gates
[14:41:14] <SWPadnos> ok. I'll have to see how we
[14:41:28] <SWPadnos> ok. I'll have to see how we'll be paying for the stuff
[14:41:55] <SWPadnos> the sales person did ask about California residents, since they need to charge tax for the locals
[14:42:02] <SWPadnos> (you'd be the first, I think)
[14:42:34] <skunkworks> jymmm isn't getting one? another wink wink - nudge nudge
[14:42:42] <SWPadnos> no - he's a cheapskate
[14:42:48] <SWPadnos> er - I mean, he has steppers ;)
[14:42:49] <skunkworks> more than me?
[14:42:56] <aip_tom> ah, yeah. funny how it doesn't make sense for someone local to pick it up and mail them out
[14:42:56] <SWPadnos> doubly more than you
[14:43:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:44:27] <jepler> SWPadnos: how soon do I have to decide if I want to add a 7i30 to my order?
[14:44:48] <SWPadnos> I'd like to place the order on Friday, I think
[14:44:52] <aip_tom> i'm hoping enough of the work can be offloaded such that a low-cost embedded system - like a Mesa 4c81 - would be able to drive the whole machine
[14:44:53] <SWPadnos> so any time before then
[14:45:07] <SWPadnos> actually, before Friday afternoon
[14:45:29] <SWPadnos> aip_tom, that's one of their PC-104 cards?
[14:45:46] <aip_tom> yes, with an integrated 200k or 400k FPGAs
[14:45:53] <SWPadnos> ah - cool
[14:45:58] <aip_tom> http://www.mesanet.com/cpucardinfo.html
[14:46:26] <aip_tom> $284 in q1 with the fpga
[14:46:44] <jepler> aip_tom: nobody's currently using emc2 on anything but x86 PCs
[14:46:54] <SWPadnos> yeah - the ARM is an issue
[14:47:02] <aip_tom> would make for a really really cheap retrofit package
[14:47:07] <SWPadnos> also, there are only 36 I/Os available on that card
[14:47:10] <aip_tom> why's that? linux runs on arm
[14:47:17] <SWPadnos> RTAI ...
[14:47:28] <aip_tom> hmm.
[14:47:39] <SWPadnos> you still need realtime, even if it doesn't need to be 20-uS interrupts
[14:48:39] <aip_tom> oh well. even with an x86, it still makes for a cheap retrofit package
[14:48:49] <SWPadnos> heh, yep :)
[14:49:07] <aip_tom> i got quoted 15k from one vendor and 12k from another vendor for my Shizuoka an-s
[14:49:31] <SWPadnos> yeah - "professional" CNC is amazingly expensive
[14:50:02] <aip_tom> that didn't even include cad/cam or the tool changer integration, just motors & controls
[14:50:25] <aip_tom> kinda makes me want to start a business based on emc
[14:50:30] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:50:32] <^eugenics> anyone know a single board computer with a pci bus with the smallest side aboute 50mm thats easy to get hold of without paying 2000 us for a dev kit?
[14:50:49] <SWPadnos> not really
[14:51:03] <SWPadnos> 50mm is pretty small, when you want a PCI connector onboard
[14:51:10] <aip_tom> the 4c81 is an SBC with PCI bus
[14:51:23] <SWPadnos> and 2x 50mm in a side ...
[14:51:27] <SWPadnos> s/in/on/
[14:51:38] <^eugenics> but the smallest side is bigger than 50mm
[14:52:11] <SWPadnos> are you looking for a board that is a PCI card, or one that has a PCI slot?
[14:52:33] <^eugenics> something like http://de.kontron.com/index.php?id=82&cat=33
[14:53:02] <^eugenics> It needs a pci bus
[14:53:09] <SWPadnos> and non-x86 is OK?
[14:53:16] <^eugenics> ofcourse
[14:53:27] <^eugenics> arm for example
[14:53:55] <aip_tom> hmm, you're probably not going to find much smaller than the pc/104 standard, which is 3.6 x 3.8 inches (96mm x 90mm)
[14:54:09] <aip_tom> * aip_tom figures that's why ^eugenics is asking
[14:54:18] <SWPadnos> there are a bunch of "DIMM PCs", but I'm not sure I've ever run across one that has PCI
[14:55:14] <^eugenics> aip_tom: http://de.kontron.com/index.php?id=82&cat=33 is small enough but I cqnt get one unless I pay for a devkit wich is too expensive
[14:55:48] <^eugenics> usually they cost around 50usd when you buy 1k units
[14:57:49] <aip_tom> hmm, might find a microcontroller with an FPGA and use the opencores PCI module (assuming you don't need too much data throughput)
[14:58:18] <aip_tom> just a thought, i don't know how realistic that is
[14:58:28] <^eugenics> ok
[15:00:56] <aip_tom> swpadnos: what's your email? i found jmk's email, but not yours
[15:01:07] <SWPadnos> spadnos at sover.net
[15:01:17] <aip_tom> tx, will email
[15:01:21] <SWPadnos> ok. thanks
[15:01:34] <^eugenics> aip_tom: so to connect a wireless mini pci card would be tough then or?
[15:02:35] <aip_tom> i don't know. i haven't used fpga's, nor opencores, I just know that it's theoretically possible without having to write your own core. the ease of integration is completely unknown to me
[15:06:01] <aip_tom> oh, and anyone know why emc docs call it the m5i20, and Mesa calls the board just 5i20?
[15:08:24] <^eugenics> aip_tom: at first look at the dev boards, they all look to big
[15:08:28] <anonimasu> hm
[15:08:44] <anonimasu> mesa 5i20
[15:08:50] <SWPadnos> the emc driver is for the m(esa)5i20 card ...
[15:09:33] <SWPadnos> emc calls the motenc lite / motenc-100 driver "motenc", but obviously they don't ;)
[15:09:43] <SWPadnos> (err - that's not the model of their hardware)
[15:30:48] <wb9mjn> Back...had some computer maintenance to do...
[15:41:11] <skunkworks> wb9mjn: How is the tuning going?
[15:41:20] <skunkworks> tuning/setup
[15:42:32] <wb9mjn> tuning all done...
[15:42:50] <wb9mjn> Ordered some tooling yesterday...Tormach and Enco...
[15:43:18] <wb9mjn> Thinking about trying out probing...
[15:43:35] <skunkworks> nice
[15:43:38] <wb9mjn> Have a one page list of things to do on vacation here....
[15:43:39] <tomp-tag> hello
[15:44:05] <wb9mjn> Hi Tomp, I am Don near Chicago...with a servo-mill using Motenc-100...
[15:44:10] <skunkworks> stupid question. what can I use to edit a file in ubuntu? (a system file)
[15:44:20] <SWPadnos> sudoedit
[15:44:30] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: thanks
[15:44:39] <SWPadnos> it runs nano, I think
[15:44:47] <wb9mjn> the servo-mill has 7 by 6 by 7.5 inch travels...
[15:45:28] <tomp-tag> hi wb... wait a minute i keep findin myself on here 2x ??? looking for othe running app on other computer
[15:45:45] <wb9mjn> Still need to get some t-slot tooling. the table I have is one of those Din standard tslots...
[15:46:28] <wb9mjn> There was a company in Wi that made the DIN tslot tooling....have to try and refind that...
[15:47:00] <tomp-tag> t-nuts, DIN try mcmaster carr (www.mcmastercarr.com, fast delivery in chicago area, next morning on your doorstep
[15:47:28] <tomp-tag> not exactly DIN, but listed as 'metric'
[15:47:59] <tomp-tag> Deutsche Industrie Standard?
[15:48:27] <wb9mjn> Yea, familiar with McMaster, I have an account,and could will call it and have it by noon, hi...
[15:48:54] <wb9mjn> Yea, the table, when I bought it off Eaby was listed as a specific DIN number for the slots...
[15:49:45] <tomp-tag> whothef is tomp, thats my tag
[15:50:51] <wb9mjn> Have to go remeasure my slots....
[15:52:09] <skunkworks> god I suck at linux. Trying to add ndiswrapper to the modules file in the etc directory. I can edit it but when I try to save over it errors.
[15:52:24] <skunkworks> using sudoedit
[15:52:28] <tomp-tag> tomp-tag is Thomas J Powderly
[15:54:56] <wb9mjn> J.W. Winco is the company...
[15:55:16] <wb9mjn> Proably what McMaster sells...
[15:57:42] <jtr> tomp-tag: whois on tomp says that's you...
[15:58:12] <skunkworks> never mind - it does if for you duh
[15:58:54] <skunkworks> was reading too far into it
[15:58:54] <tomp-tag> yeh, but why a zombie me? i check netstat -route & yes thats me but only 1 client open,, going down now
[16:12:47] <tomp> fixed now :)
[16:13:32] <jtr> cool! what was it?
[16:16:19] <tomp> stupidity.. gnome hides tabbed terminals and i didnt use top
[16:20:27] <jtr> Ahh, ok. What client are you using? I'm only familiar with ksirc and gaim so far.
[16:26:54] <tomp> xirc, the problem is the apps on the tabbed terminal ( the one on the not focussed terminal ) are not visible to stupid people :)
[16:27:40] <jtr> probably not good for me then ;)
[16:27:47] <tomp> fwiw: i found adlink has 50 pin breakout boards, no idea of price part #DIN-50P comes with 1.5 meter flatband
[16:28:26] <SWPadnos> there are a couple of sellers on eBay that sell National Instruments boards (or kits) with the cable for $30 or less
[16:28:43] <SWPadnos> at least there were a week or so ago ;)
[16:31:30] <jtr> anyone care to make a guess about the capabilities of this stepper?
[16:31:45] <jtr> http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16235+MS
[16:34:16] <SWPadnos> that could actually be fairly powerful. the current is ~7A/phase, and it is one of the square designs which usually have higher torque for their size
[16:35:03] <cradek_> low voltage and bipolar are both good signs
[16:35:16] <jtr> looking to put it on a Taig lathe
[16:35:27] <SWPadnos> it's only ~20W though
[16:36:00] <cradek_> I can't tell how big it is
[16:36:23] <SWPadnos> 205/8" long, 2-3/8" square, 2 pounds (or kgs??)
[16:36:28] <SWPadnos> err - 2-5/8
[16:36:33] <cradek_> are you planning on direct drive?
[16:36:49] <cradek_> oh, look, measurements
[16:37:24] <SWPadnos> motors would be another nice thing to arrange a group buy for (but only if the manufacturer will direct-ship, or the discounts are mind-bogglingly big)
[16:37:50] <jtr> well, 1:1 would give me .0003 for full steps. 16tpi leadscrew
[16:38:25] <jtr> 2 lbs
[16:38:33] <SWPadnos> with a leadscrew, that motor may be underpowered
[16:38:48] <SWPadnos> since 1/2 of the energy goes into friction
[16:40:24] <jtr> looking at this leadscrew http://www.herbach.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HAR&Product_Code=TM94MEC2601
[16:40:32] <skunkworks> can't get my damn power light to turn on. (pc network card).. Think it is time to post on ubuntu forum.
[16:41:07] <cradek_> jtr: do you think that's acme?
[16:42:17] <jtr> think so. threads look too defined in the pic to be V.
[16:42:42] <jtr> wondered if it might be Kerk
[16:42:48] <skunkworks> cradek: do you think the motors are bigger than what is on your maxnc?
[16:43:04] <cradek_> skunkworks: no, pretty sure mine are bigger
[16:44:03] <tomp> www.adlinktech.com lotsa hdwr (like NI) linux drivers PCIS-DASK/X D2K-DASK/X, WD-DASK/X ( free dload, closed src & very specific to distro)
[16:44:20] <tomp> none rt
[16:45:06] <jtr> cradek: what size were the steppers on the first lathe you did threading on?
[16:45:29] <jtr> you've done two now, right?
[16:45:35] <cradek_> I think they're the ones sherline sells
[16:46:50] <wb9mjn> Found it...DIN 508 standard...
[16:48:07] <cradek_> http://sherline.com/stepspec.pdf
[16:48:17] <cradek_> I think this is what was on that first lathe
[16:50:05] <cradek_> 9.7 kg-cm is 135 oz-in
[16:50:40] <cradek_> what will you drive these with?
[16:51:49] <cradek_> I think the motors you found are probably substantially more powerful than what sherline sells
[16:52:16] <jtr> I had been thinking pminmo l297/298 , but that won't do the 7 A these would take.
[16:52:47] <cradek_> I think you won't need all of that.
[16:55:37] <jtr> Seems like most of the inexpensive drivers are limited to about 2 or 3 A.
[16:55:46] <cradek_> yep
[16:55:57] <cradek_> and fairly low voltages
[16:56:07] <cradek_> although the L298 will do 40+ v
[16:56:14] <skunkworks> keep an eye on ebay and find some oem650 drives (compumotor)
[16:56:19] <skunkworks> they are 6 amp per phase
[16:56:33] <skunkworks> I would think you could get them for under 50 dollars
[17:00:45] <jtr> wonder if it makes sense to spend more on steppers, and use less expensive drives?
[17:02:07] <jtr> or use 2:1 ratio and lower curent drives
[17:02:19] <wb9mjn> Nope...the drives make steppers even practical...without a good drive, Servos are useless for machining...
[17:02:24] <wb9mjn> steppers that is...
[17:03:05] <wb9mjn> The micro-stepping, is more than just a way to get finer resolution, its a way to control the steppers motion more
[17:03:17] <wb9mjn> accurately, and tune out the nasty resonances they have...
[17:04:00] <wb9mjn> single and half step stepper drives only work well at one speed with a specific load...
[17:04:03] <cradek_> on a small machine half stepping is just fine. it's not a high performance application.
[17:04:35] <wb9mjn> If you have varying loads, and need rapids that are, well rapid, you need the micro-stepping...
[17:04:39] <cradek_> (when I tried full stepping it barely worked at all)
[17:05:15] <wb9mjn> Figuring this stuff out was the thing that made B.C. Kuo famous, besides his control text books...
[17:05:25] <cradek_> * cradek_ shrugs
[17:05:42] <cradek_> on a machine that can only move 4" rapids aren't very important, and you can machine all sorts of things with half stepping.
[17:06:23] <cradek_> steppers on big machines are a completely different story I'm sure.
[17:07:11] <wb9mjn> There is control dynmics in steppers that is only addressed with micro-stepping drives...
[17:07:45] <wb9mjn> Besides, Gecko's are like what $125 ? saves that much in time
[17:08:20] <cradek_> sure - I don't want to argue - but I have cut many, many parts on a half-step (small) machine. That's the application jtr is asking about.
[17:08:52] <wb9mjn> I have the Geckos on the 150 mm Proxon machine here, glad I did that!
[17:08:54] <jtr> Well, the Xylotex offers 1/8 stepping on 3 axis for $125
[17:09:22] <cradek_> yes, I think lots of people use xylotex
[17:09:25] <wb9mjn> Micro-stepping is the key....
[17:09:31] <wb9mjn> Might work just fine...
[17:09:50] <cradek_> for my motors the 24v limit would be too low, I run my L298 drivers at ~ 42v
[17:10:01] <jtr> but it's still only a few amps. I do understand the concern about resonance.
[17:10:17] <wb9mjn> I m runing 24 v 8 inch floppy ps on my Proxon...
[17:10:35] <wb9mjn> Yea, the higher voltage gives better LR waveform...
[17:11:21] <eholmgren> cradek: what drives are you running?
[17:11:44] <wb9mjn> The steppers are 7.5 volt, .8 am ...
[17:11:53] <cradek_> eholmgren: pminmo L298
[17:12:11] <wb9mjn> Would not reduce voltage much below that 24/7.5 volt ratio...
[17:13:56] <wb9mjn> When a stepper goes from one step to the next, it osillates about the new step, and finally damps to rest...
[17:14:37] <wb9mjn> If the next step is commanded at some non-advantgeous portion of that resonance cycle, the step can skip, or double...
[17:14:50] <jtr> I would be happy to get it running with the L298 and then try different drivers to see what it could really do.
[17:15:45] <wb9mjn> The resonances are hardware related, and totally randomly phase with respect to the drive currents...
[17:15:59] <wb9mjn> So the missed, or doubled steps occur randomly...
[17:16:04] <cradek_> sherline runs theirs with those small motors and a unipolar drive. it works if you keep the top speed down to where it still has enough power not to stall.
[17:16:32] <jtr> wb9mjn: so I just have to figure out what the resonant frequency is and stay below it.
[17:16:55] <wb9mjn> Well, typically rapids are above, and cutting is below...
[17:17:41] <jtr> X travel is probably 8 inches if I remove the tailstock...
[17:17:42] <wb9mjn> Staying below all the time is horendously slow, but it depends allot on the resolution you need (screw pitch, force)...
[17:18:19] <wb9mjn> So, the systems that use half and full stepping, shoot through the resonance quick, under low load...
[17:18:39] <wb9mjn> But, its a constant headache in operation...Micro-stepping drives solve all this...
[17:19:51] <wb9mjn> Typically, 8 inches with a .0001 inch resolution system is going to be 1 1/2 to 3 minutes with steppers...
[17:20:16] <cradek_> 3 minutes to what?
[17:20:50] <skunkworks> I can run 300 ipm with my setup ;) (steppers)
[17:21:05] <wb9mjn> move the 8 inch distance...What is your resolution ?
[17:21:20] <jtr> brb - lunch calls
[17:21:21] <cradek_> oh that's bull.
[17:22:21] <cradek_> my resolution is 6400 halfsteps per inch and it rapids at 34ipm
[17:22:57] <cradek_> it's 100% reliable, it cuts for hours
[17:23:19] <wb9mjn> Hmm...just never got that to work here...until I went to the Geckos...
[17:23:37] <cradek_> you must have been doing something wrong.
[17:23:53] <wb9mjn> Could be, my motors are little small things...
[17:24:02] <wb9mjn> NEMA 23, single stack....
[17:24:17] <wb9mjn> But, that is what would fit on the machine...its small too...
[17:24:18] <cradek_> what drives were you trying to use?
[17:24:32] <wb9mjn> Local company made some, so I tried em....
[17:24:46] <wb9mjn> They were chopping single/half step drivers...
[17:24:48] <skunkworks> pwm current limit?
[17:24:53] <wb9mjn> Yes...
[17:25:01] <cradek_> so bipolar configuration?
[17:25:17] <wb9mjn> The steppers are 4 wire - bipolar configuration...
[17:25:29] <cradek_> I'm surprised it didn't work better then
[17:25:59] <skunkworks> lo
[17:26:00] <wb9mjn> This machine has high friction nuts delrin (?) nuts...
[17:26:09] <wb9mjn> Could be the reason...
[17:26:13] <cradek_> mine does too, zero backlash delrin on acme screws
[17:26:41] <wb9mjn> These are european trapezoidal cross section motion screws....
[17:27:07] <wb9mjn> 1 mm pitch...
[17:27:16] <wb9mjn> 200 steps per rev...
[17:27:37] <cradek_> wow 1mm trapezoidal?
[17:27:56] <wb9mjn> Yea, that is what Proxon put on it...
[17:28:15] <cradek_> I have never seen trapezoidal/acme that fine
[17:28:29] <wb9mjn> 2000 steps / mm ....
[17:29:07] <wb9mjn> This thing was intended for electronics tech, to do modifications to boards, and prototype little stuff...
[17:29:08] <cradek_> 50800 steps per inch? you sure can't do much with software step generation
[17:29:22] <cradek_> you weren't using software step gen were you?
[17:30:21] <wb9mjn> Yep...but it needs the PCI Parallel port, and the 800 MHz Pc....Originally had a 100 MHz PI on it, and it was slow...
[17:30:22] <eholmgren> cripes, 1mm pitch?
[17:30:41] <wb9mjn> But, with the 800 MHz PIII I could max out the rapids, and get the motors to stall...
[17:31:09] <skunkworks> what where you using for control software?
[17:31:24] <wb9mjn> That is why I am looking at that Advantch computer....as the 800 MHz PIII is on the servo mill now...
[17:31:36] <wb9mjn> EMC1 BDI 2.2 originally...
[17:33:03] <wb9mjn> Yea, but the microsteps were there just to keep the servos happy...not for any real accuracy...
[17:33:21] <wb9mjn> Microsteps vary in actual angular position by quite allot ...
[17:34:19] <wb9mjn> It has 128 mm X travel, 46 mm Y travel and 57 mm Z travel, after modification to CNC...
[17:34:28] <wb9mjn> I did it more to learn....
[17:35:02] <wb9mjn> It was $250 ....I bought the first one sold in the US, it was actually shipped from the Proxon warehouse, by the
[17:35:34] <wb9mjn> couple that moved over from Germany to run the warehouse....when Proxon started selling stuff in the USA...
[17:36:44] <wb9mjn> I ve done lots of aluminum bits and pieces on it, and some hardened steel very very slow using the AlTiN solid carbide at 15K RPM...
[17:37:11] <wb9mjn> I made all the parts for the conversion on it, and a small drill press...
[17:38:07] <wb9mjn> They emailed me from Germany, saying they would ship when they landed in the USA and opened the warehouse...hi..
[17:38:51] <wb9mjn> I retrofitted the table with RC car ball bearings, rather than the original sleeve bearings, as the sleaves were
[17:39:00] <wb9mjn> getting jamed up with cuttings all the time...
[17:39:23] <wb9mjn> The ways do as well, if you do not protect them....as the cuttings are very fine...
[17:40:01] <wb9mjn> table screw bearings, with ball bearings...
[17:40:40] <wb9mjn> Burned out the spindle motor doing somthing dumb, and retrofitted it with a Foredom motor...
[17:41:00] <wb9mjn> Overloads the Z nut, and need to make a metal one....
[17:41:16] <wb9mjn> Anyway...probably boring you guys on this by now...
[17:42:04] <wb9mjn> It sings quite nicely when its doing rapids....
[17:42:14] <jtr> Part of your system's need for microstepping might be the 7.5V 0.8A motor/24V PS. You've got a lot of L there to overcome.
[17:42:26] <wb9mjn> Yep....
[17:42:41] <jtr> and not a lot ov V to work with.
[17:42:50] <jtr> s/ov/of/
[17:42:59] <wb9mjn> But this was an economy effort, and the 8 inch floppy drives were getting scrapped for the metal, and the ps was
[17:43:03] <wb9mjn> left over....hi...
[17:43:04] <cradek_> I understand it's best if you have 10-15x the steady state voltage on the choppers
[17:43:51] <cradek_> so jtr's 3v motors on 30-40v with L298 would probably work great.
[17:44:00] <wb9mjn> It works as it is, and NEVER misses a step....
[17:44:12] <wb9mjn> I have confirmed that on many many occasions....
[17:44:22] <eholmgren> it would be hard to tell with 1mm pitch ;)
[17:44:58] <wb9mjn> There are some good reference surfaces, and I can measure with a caliper head on those....using a dial
[17:45:12] <wb9mjn> caliper, one can see if the needle moves at all...
[17:45:24] <cradek_> dual shaft motors with handwheels are nice for that.
[17:45:48] <cradek_> just don't get in the way of the little handle sticking out
[17:46:04] <wb9mjn> These motors are dual shaft, with large radio knobs, and white markings....
[17:46:26] <jtr> It's working - no need to change. It was just a likely explanation for the varying experiences.
[17:46:38] <wb9mjn> So, can see the white markings / and/ or / knob pointer come right back onto the reference marks...
[17:48:54] <jtr> Gotta run, all. Thanks for the input.
[17:49:03] <wb9mjn> Basically, it was a junkbox project, except for the motors, shaft couplers, geckos and the Proxon...
[17:49:43] <wb9mjn> Everthing else was junk box...enclosure is an old fax machine stand turned upside down....lube spray is an old
[17:50:39] <wb9mjn> reading light corrugated metal thing, with a hobby torch spray nose....
[17:51:31] <wb9mjn> Oh, and the waterproof tubing and connectors were bought from DigiKey...about $150 worth of stuf...
[17:51:50] <wb9mjn> Not lube....coulant...
[17:51:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo all
[17:52:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo skunkworks
[17:53:04] <wb9mjn> The coolant pump is an air pump from an old vacuum bagging setup , that presurizes a gatoraid bottle, and
[17:53:15] <wb9mjn> forces the coolant through tubing to the nozzle....
[17:55:13] <wb9mjn> Coolant drains into a 5 gallon paint pail (garbage picked)...and use a car siphon pump to recharge the gatoraid
[17:55:15] <wb9mjn> bottle....
[17:55:21] <wb9mjn> Loads of fun, hi...
[17:56:05] <eholmgren> hi?!!?11
[17:56:11] <wb9mjn> Hi...
[17:56:38] <wb9mjn> Off to make lunch...will bring it back to computer in a few minutes....
[18:11:57] <etla> hi all
[18:12:24] <alex_joni> hi etla
[18:13:02] <etla> just took most of the ac servos to the post office...
[18:13:56] <alex_joni> good deals?
[18:14:24] <etla> OK I guess, I got 350eur for three 400W servos
[18:14:36] <etla> the 1kW went for 110eur which was maybe a bit low
[18:14:40] <alex_joni> is that more than what you paid?
[18:14:50] <etla> sure it's more than I paid
[18:14:56] <alex_joni> that's ok then
[18:15:01] <etla> but ofcourse if you compare to what they cost new ;)
[18:15:03] <alex_joni> and you got to play with them :P
[18:15:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni knows what they cost
[18:15:15] <alex_joni> so I try not to compare :P
[18:15:49] <etla> hopefully the dc servos will be here soon, and Jon Elson said he should have some amps ready for me also in a few days
[18:15:50] <alex_joni> I need to replace a very small mechanical switch, and it's 50 EUR
[18:16:09] <colin_> hello
[18:16:10] <etla> how small
[18:16:14] <etla> hi colin
[18:16:30] <colin_> found this place from the linux cnc website
[18:16:34] <alex_joni> something like a pushbutton, round, 9mm diameter, 15mm high, 5mm travel
[18:16:39] <alex_joni> colin_: hi
[18:16:57] <alex_joni> colin_: good thing, hope it wasn't hard to find :)
[18:16:59] <etla> 50eur seems a bit steep for that
[18:17:02] <colin_> was looking at converting an old cnc mill using mach 3 software
[18:17:19] <colin_> but seeing theres a linux program id like to give that a go first
[18:17:23] <alex_joni> colin_: if you like to work on things, emc2 might be the free alternative :)
[18:17:42] <alex_joni> functionality is matched if not way beyond mach3
[18:17:44] <colin_> how does emc2 work on larger machinery ?
[18:17:52] <alex_joni> pretty well
[18:17:58] <alex_joni> depends what is large for you :)
[18:18:04] <etla> colin: or, if you want to do closed-loop servos, the emc is the _only_ option
[18:18:08] <colin_> hurco mc2 mill
[18:18:28] <alex_joni> http://users.pandora.be/engineering/index_files/page0001.html
[18:18:31] <colin_> and a plasma cutting table
[18:18:34] <alex_joni> does that count as large?
[18:19:17] <colin_> yeah thats quite big
[18:19:17] <etla> naah, largish. 10x4x4 m work envelope is large
[18:19:49] <colin_> whats the recomended cam program for emc ?
[18:20:13] <colin_> i have access to delcam powermill and feature cam aswell as mastercam x
[18:20:18] <etla> you can use any cam program
[18:20:26] <etla> as long as it produces "standard" g-code
[18:20:43] <colin_> does emc have full 5 axis support ?
[18:20:47] <alex_joni> colin_: http://www.dallur.com/index.php?id=130
[18:20:52] <alex_joni> colin_: 6 axes
[18:20:59] <colin_> i know the mach software struggled with it coz of kinematics
[18:21:15] <alex_joni> yeah, that works way better in emc2, although it can be improved
[18:21:32] <etla> how do your 4th and 5th axes work ?
[18:21:42] <alex_joni> the thing with emc2 is that when someone comes with a problem along, people (developers) usually jump in and help out :)
[18:21:55] <colin_> i dont have 4 or 5th axis im just being curious at the mo :)
[18:22:02] <etla> right ;)
[18:22:58] <colin_> what sorta output systems does emc support at the moment ?
[18:23:15] <colin_> does it do the grex that mach is working on at the moment
[18:23:36] <colin_> i apoligise if its in the documentation im still working through it
[18:24:21] <etla> there's no grex driver (yet?)
[18:24:31] <etla> simple systems use the parallell port
[18:24:48] <etla> more advanced systems usually use a dedicated pci card for I/O
[18:24:54] <alex_joni> or isa :)
[18:25:11] <alex_joni> but you don't find many motherboards these days that take those
[18:25:25] <colin_> what sorta hardware control is recomended ?
[18:25:37] <etla> depends on what you need
[18:25:46] <colin_> i dont mind paying for extra if it means i can run probing and tool change ect
[18:26:08] <etla> for a closed-loop system you will need dedicated hardware (encoder counters, DACs)
[18:26:22] <etla> then it depends on what kind of servo drives you are going to use
[18:26:26] <alex_joni> and also DC (or AC) motors, and encoders
[18:26:37] <alex_joni> so it depends on your need/budget
[18:26:44] <alex_joni> lower cost: steppers + parport
[18:27:07] <alex_joni> slightly more advanced: steppers + USC (board that plugs into parport, but outputs pulses)
[18:27:41] <alex_joni> middle cost: parport + Gecko 340 + servos (DC max 20A @ 80V), loop is closed in the external driver
[18:28:00] <alex_joni> higher end: motion control board + servo amps + servo motors + encoders
[18:28:16] <colin_> ok
[18:28:19] <etla> I'm just in the process of converting from parport+gecko/steppers to control board (m5i20) + pwm servo amps + dc servos
[18:28:42] <etla> I've had enough parts ruined by lost steps with the stepper system
[18:28:59] <etla> and the ability to always monitor the following error just seems cool
[18:29:09] <colin_> that is cool
[18:29:11] <alex_joni> m5i20 is a pretty cheap motion control board, but it doesn't have DAC's or ADC's on it (it's all digital)
[18:29:14] <etla> + I envision rigid tapping in the future
[18:29:20] <jmkasunich> ok, I have a challenging problem for the #emc brain-trust
[18:29:21] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/stickout-12-20-06.html
[18:29:31] <jmkasunich> any suggestions?
[18:30:30] <alex_joni> 403 - Forbidden
[18:30:33] <colin_> got a good website for pricing up servos and controllers ?
[18:30:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: when I try to load the bigger pics
[18:30:45] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: the 5i20 does have "dacs", they generate a high frequency and filter it
[18:30:48] <jmkasunich> try again
[18:30:48] <colin_> im getting an old 1980's machine so there probably stepper motors
[18:31:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: wrt the mill you have, before you modified it how well could it cut steel?
[18:31:05] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: the 5i20 does have "dacs", they generate a high frequency PWM and filter it
[18:31:22] <alex_joni> colin_: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[18:31:28] <alex_joni> some reference numbers
[18:32:16] <etla> L_H: it's a small machine, dont count on taking heavy cuts in steel. However if you go slower than in aluminium it will cut steel.
[18:33:04] <colin_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[18:33:05] <etla> jmk: are you using a servo motor to drive the spindle ?
[18:33:04] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: only way I see if you turn that table around (have the motor in the front)
[18:33:08] <colin_> oops
[18:33:09] <colin_> sorry
[18:33:14] <jmkasunich> etla: will be eventually
[18:34:05] <colin_> the mesa looks quite reasonable
[18:34:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: oh, so say 6mm endmill, 1mm deep and 100-150mm/min?
[18:34:56] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: did you get/understand what I meant?
[18:35:07] <etla> L_H: maybe... with lots of flood coolant and a good endmill
[18:35:07] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yeah
[18:35:22] <alex_joni> not the prettiest thing though :/
[18:35:26] <jmkasunich> 2nd to last paragraph, I already though about turning it around
[18:35:35] <alex_joni> oh.. missed that :)
[18:35:51] <jmkasunich> I'm hoping somebody has a brainstorm ;-)
[18:35:55] <etla> jmk: that one has a vertical spindle too ?
[18:36:03] <jmkasunich> yeah, a milling head
[18:36:08] <jmkasunich> (removed at the moment
[18:36:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: ok, what is the surface finish that you can get if you have a good mill and don't really care about machining time?
[18:36:38] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: vertical motor (implies some gearing)
[18:37:00] <jmkasunich> gearing implies backlash unfortunately
[18:37:23] <alex_joni> you can probably get gears which are adjustable till backlash free
[18:37:29] <alex_joni> = expensive
[18:37:42] <jmkasunich> I should probably investigate that before I just rule it out
[18:37:47] <etla> L_H: it's hard to say. In the beginning (2003 or so) we were quite unskilled, didn't use flood coolant correctly - so we did not get great results. Now that we changed the spindle (new bearings etc.) it's quite good in aluminium
[18:37:53] <alex_joni> I see you can still move the machine forward quite a bit
[18:38:04] <etla> is there something like pastebin for pictures, I could show you some small parts
[18:38:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: imageshack.us maybe?
[18:38:24] <jmkasunich> turning the motor would get me 4"
[18:38:30] <etla> L_H: I'll try
[18:38:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> otherwise you can upload them to my ftp server
[18:38:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> whichever is easiest
[18:39:46] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yes, I could move it forward, maybe 6-8"
[18:40:00] <etla> unbelievable the adverts that come up on imageschak...
[18:40:09] <jmkasunich> would start to get crowded in the operating position if I went any more than that
[18:40:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> huh?
[18:40:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I don't notice them as I have adblock
[18:40:23] <etla> http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=puomihelaosafu1.jpg
[18:40:39] <jmkasunich> and that would still mean a really awkwardly designed guard in the back
[18:40:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hey, not bad
[18:40:56] <etla> the bigger hole is 3mm, and the outer diameter around that is 7mm. the smaller hole is 2mm
[18:41:01] <jmkasunich> nice parts
[18:41:12] <alex_joni> 8" forward, means 2" in the back?
[18:41:15] <jmkasunich> how did you fixture them while milling the outside
[18:41:36] <etla> first most of the machining is done from the top
[18:41:50] <etla> then you turn the stock around, and it fits in a jig
[18:41:55] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: do you mean "move the entire bench forward" (what I thought) or "move the machine forward on the bench" ?
[18:42:09] <alex_joni> move the machine on the bench
[18:42:09] <etla> and then you cut away the unneccessary stock with a face-mill
[18:42:20] <etla> the hole at 90degrees needs to be done separately later
[18:42:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, that reminds me, how large a facemill is usuable in the mill?
[18:42:45] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: 5" would put the machine right at the front edge of the bench
[18:43:04] <alex_joni> ok, so 5" in the back
[18:43:11] <etla> we have a 40mm, but even with the modded 750W induction motor we would like to have more torque
[18:43:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, ok
[18:43:26] <jmkasunich> I really don't want to do that - weight distribution on the bench, loss of that little front space where I put tools and such
[18:43:27] <alex_joni> that's not that much (in my understandings of imperial measurements) :)
[18:43:32] <jmkasunich> 125mm
[18:43:37] <etla> now it takes 0,25 or 0,5mm deep cuts in aluminium OK if we run the spindle at 3000rpm
[18:43:45] <jmkasunich> I need to keep an open mind though
[18:43:48] <etla> would probably need a vector VFD to run at any lower rpm
[18:44:17] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: put a sheet of metal under it (extends the bench with 5" in the front)
[18:44:29] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[18:44:50] <etla> you can compare the finish on those, to some earlier parts with the old spindle: http://www.anderswallin.net/2006/11/cnc-machined-tiller-arms/
[18:45:14] <etla> but remember that we have run the old spindle down quite bad, it won't be that bad on a new BF20 spindle
[18:45:29] <etla> my blog post also shows how we do that kind of small parts
[18:45:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: ooh, nice
[18:45:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[18:46:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> was this done on the acme screws or ballscrews?
[18:47:28] <etla> we're kind of half way in the conversion, so the Z-axis has linear guides and a ballscrew, X and Y are the stock dovetail ways and stock acme screws
[18:47:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, and they work well enough for simple stuff?
[18:47:59] <jmkasunich> etla: didn't know you did RC sailboats
[18:48:21] <jmkasunich> I made one a long time ago (~20 yrs) when I still lived in an apartment
[18:48:22] <etla> jmk: now you know ;)
[18:48:55] <jmkasunich> how big is a noux?
[18:50:24] <etla> It's an IOM, or international one metre, so the hull is 1000mm maximum. the keel depth max is 420mm and the tallest rig is about 1600mm high. minimum weight 4kg of which 2.5kg in the keel
[18:51:30] <jmkasunich> I didn't know much when I did mine - I made it only 600mm long, so its very tender (displacement and ability to carry ballast goes as the cube of length)
[18:52:19] <jmkasunich> scaled the lines from a drawing of a fullsized boat in a book, so the hull shape isn't that good for scale either
[18:52:22] <etla> yes, but the trend internationally over the years has been for smaller and smaller boats. I guess people want to fit them into their homes and cars comfortably
[18:52:39] <etla> model boats usually have much deeper keels and bigger rudders
[18:52:46] <jmkasunich> yes
[18:53:00] <jmkasunich> mine is scale, until you get to the keel
[18:53:11] <jmkasunich> then a big fin with a bulb on the bottom
[18:54:14] <etla> we got some bulb moulds cnc milled for us a few years back...
[18:54:39] <etla> now with the BF20 upgrade we should get 500mm of X movement which means we can do fin and bulb moulds in aluminium
[18:55:11] <etla> here's some bulb stuff: http://www.anderswallin.net/2003/05/making-a-bulb/
[18:55:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: oh, you don't have the long version of the bf20?
[18:55:40] <etla> L_H: the long one is a quite recent model, it wasn't available when we bougt
[18:55:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, ok
[18:58:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: was it hard to make the Z axis stepper controlled?
[18:58:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is there lots of deadplay (?) in it?
[18:58:47] <etla> when we had the acme screw we just replaced the handle with the motor
[18:59:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, just a motor powerful enough
[18:59:03] <etla> yeah, backlash probably up to 0,5mm
[18:59:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nasty
[18:59:26] <etla> with the ballscrew we have it direct drive, i.e. the motor is at the end of the ballscrew
[18:59:40] <etla> there's probably an old pic on my blog, wait...
[18:59:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> does it jump around when milling (glapp) or was it just backlash?
[19:00:42] <etla> here's a pic of the original setup http://www.anderswallin.net/2004/11/cnc-milling-of-mdf-plug/
[19:01:01] <etla> it probably doesn't jump around if you take reasonable cuts
[19:01:22] <etla> Note the Z-counterweight, it's absolutely essential if you use small/medium steppers
[19:01:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:01:33] <etla> I think ours are 280Ncm holding torque
[19:01:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> where'd you get them?
[19:02:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> farnell/elfa+
[19:02:34] <etla> the steppers were from a local company www.oem.fi I think, the are made by MAE
[19:02:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:02:58] <jmkasunich> etla: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/sailboat-model.html
[19:03:29] <jmkasunich> dammit, I keep forgetting to set permissions
[19:03:36] <jmkasunich> there
[19:03:44] <etla> jmk: nice, does look like quite a small boat.
[19:03:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, I get denied
[19:03:55] <etla> 403 - forbidden
[19:03:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> for the large images
[19:04:06] <jmkasunich> try again, just fixed it
[19:04:09] <etla> now it's ok
[19:04:36] <etla> so is jmkasunich.dyndns.org up all the time ? the url sounds a bit suspicious ?
[19:04:42] <alex_joni> where's the motor?
[19:05:03] <alex_joni> etla: dyndns is a service for users with non-static ip addresses
[19:05:09] <jmkasunich> dyndys is a service that does DNS for folks like me whose ISP doesn't provide a static IP
[19:05:12] <etla> alex: believe it or not that's a common question when people come to see our races !
[19:05:21] <jmkasunich> when my dsl IP changes, dyndys updates within 20 mins or so
[19:05:24] <alex_joni> etla: I was kidding :)
[19:05:34] <etla> jmk: right. so I might add a link from my blog to yours :)
[19:05:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: what happened to the rudder?
[19:05:48] <jmkasunich> it got broken off
[19:05:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or do you adjust the saiö's COF instead?
[19:05:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, that's not that fun
[19:06:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> *sail's
[19:06:08] <jmkasunich> no
[19:06:14] <jmkasunich> thats when the boat got retired
[19:06:51] <jmkasunich> I had fun making the rigging, the cleats and such
[19:07:23] <jmkasunich> in the deck view you can see the rudder pushrod and rudderhead
[19:07:53] <jmkasunich> dang, its very dusty - I should clean more often ;-)
[19:08:13] <jmkasunich> the deck is mahogany (can't tell from the pics, but its very pretty)
[19:08:40] <etla> there's a guy in finland who has made wooden IOMs, let me get you a link
[19:09:31] <etla> http://picasaweb.google.com/kai.martonen/BuildingAnTripleCrownIOM
[19:10:18] <jmkasunich> wow, beautiful
[19:10:44] <etla> yeah, a lot of hours go into those
[19:11:21] <jmkasunich> carbon fiber rudder ;-)
[19:12:36] <jmkasunich> when I built mine, I was single, bored, and had no internet
[19:12:46] <etla> carbon is allowed for the fin and the rudder
[19:12:58] <jmkasunich> I think it took about 4-5 months, working 3-5 hours most evenings
[19:13:23] <etla> no way to make a 5 or 6mm thick fin that is 400mm long and can support a 2.4kg bulb from plywood or similar
[19:13:34] <jmkasunich> no
[19:14:34] <etla> hey one emc related question while we are chatting OT ;)
[19:15:00] <jmkasunich> IIRC, my fin has maybe 6mm square basswood spar, some smaller spars fwd and aft, filled in with balse, then skinned with 1/64" (~0.4mm) ply
[19:15:11] <etla> I recently installed vmware under windows and ran ubuntu and emc2 on it - that was fun and will enable me to develop bits and pieces on my laptop
[19:15:17] <jmkasunich> or maybe the main spar is brass tube, set into the lead
[19:15:20] <jmkasunich> don't remember now
[19:15:53] <etla> in the shop with the mill computer it would be nice the other way around: run ubuntu for most of the time, but run vmware and windows under that in order to run the CAM programs
[19:15:57] <etla> anyone tried that ?
[19:16:04] <jmkasunich> not specifically
[19:16:10] <alex_joni> etla: it works
[19:16:14] <jmkasunich> I have a win95 VM under ubuntu to run easycad
[19:16:19] <jmkasunich> but haven't tried newer doze
[19:16:25] <alex_joni> etla: but you still need a license for the doze inside the VM
[19:16:26] <jmkasunich> (and won't, because of licensing)
[19:16:40] <alex_joni> and the newer vista doesn't allow running inside a VM
[19:16:48] <alex_joni> unless you get the real expensive version
[19:17:04] <cradek_> win 2000 still has sane licensing - I'd go with that if I needed a modernish winders
[19:17:16] <etla> XP would probably be fine
[19:17:18] <alex_joni> not sure you can still get that
[19:17:24] <alex_joni> cradek_: win2k that is
[19:17:29] <cradek_> nope XP calls home for activation
[19:17:47] <cradek_> alex_joni: yeah, not new...
[19:17:54] <alex_joni> cradek_: so what? you're allowed to activate it from the VM
[19:18:16] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[19:18:44] <etla> we really need an opensource CAM program ;)
[19:18:48] <cradek> because I don't want to do that
[19:18:59] <cradek> I think it's a bogus requirement
[19:19:01] <alex_joni> cradek: weeell.. there are workarounds
[19:19:11] <cradek> yeah, use free software
[19:19:13] <alex_joni> get an XP with SP1
[19:19:27] <alex_joni> and upgrade via internet, there are certain steps to follow so that it won't do that
[19:19:37] <cradek> huh
[19:19:42] <cradek> glad I don't need it :-)
[19:19:53] <jmkasunich> same here
[19:20:01] <alex_joni> oh wait, that's for the authenticity testing
[19:20:05] <alex_joni> not for activation
[19:20:35] <alex_joni> anyways, m$ is going in a very good direction
[19:20:54] <alex_joni> each version is worse then the predecessor, licenses get worse, people get more and more upset
[19:21:12] <cradek> they keep buying it...
[19:22:13] <alex_joni> partly
[19:22:28] <alex_joni> most big companies won't upgrade to vista
[19:24:25] <cradek> they will when they start getting office 2008 documents in email and office 2008 only runs on vista
[19:25:28] <alex_joni> heh.. actually office 97 (very wide spread) doesn't run on vista anymore
[19:25:42] <alex_joni> and they simply pop up a dialog and say: go buy a newer one
[19:25:45] <cradek> my office still uses office 97 and I'm starting to get complaints
[19:26:13] <cradek> I'm going to try switching to openoffice before buying dozens of new office licenses
[19:26:19] <alex_joni> yeah..
[19:26:30] <alex_joni> the only problem I have with OO is that it's way slower
[19:26:35] <alex_joni> on the same box I mean
[19:26:41] <cradek> I don't care - I don't use it :-)
[19:26:51] <alex_joni> you don't.. but your users will whine
[19:27:01] <cradek> they whine anyway
[19:27:11] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/emc/IMG_9342.JPG
[19:27:12] <cradek> you only have to get used to it once
[19:27:26] <cradek> oops is that a trade secret? :-)
[19:27:31] <alex_joni> lol
[19:28:08] <cradek> what are the irregular shapes?
[19:28:29] <alex_joni> they are regular :P
[19:28:36] <alex_joni> the irregular part are shadows
[19:28:54] <cradek> oh cones?
[19:29:12] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/emc/IMG_9346.JPG
[19:29:29] <jmkasunich> what for?
[19:29:35] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: cutting
[19:29:41] <skunkworks> roboplasma?
[19:29:45] <alex_joni> skunkworks: yeah
[19:29:53] <skunkworks> cool
[19:30:43] <skunkworks> how are you progrmaming that?
[19:30:57] <alex_joni> skunkworks: teach in
[19:31:11] <alex_joni> or writing offsets from the first point teached
[19:31:16] <alex_joni> or offline programming
[19:31:33] <skunkworks> I think you should convert it to emc and use kins ;)
[19:32:18] <alex_joni> skunkworks: http://www.robcon.ro/emc/IMG_9350.JPG
[19:32:26] <alex_joni> skunkworks: one day :)
[19:33:01] <alex_joni> skunkworks: see that teach pendant?
[19:33:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: http://www.robcon.ro/emc/IMG_9353.JPG
[19:33:53] <skunkworks> cool
[19:34:03] <alex_joni> skunkworks: wouldn't wanna build that :D
[19:34:30] <alex_joni> the servos are CAN based, with interpolation in the drive
[19:34:31] <jmkasunich> noce table
[19:34:34] <jmkasunich> nice
[19:34:35] <skunkworks> I am a little upset your torching on those tables
[19:34:41] <skunkworks> :)
[19:34:55] <alex_joni> skunkworks: there's a 1mm thick aluminum plate on the table
[19:34:58] <alex_joni> for protection
[19:35:05] <alex_joni> you can see it in the last picture
[19:35:17] <alex_joni> that one is easily replaceable
[19:37:52] <skunkworks> was the holder what you drew up in alibre?
[19:37:59] <skunkworks> torch head holder
[19:41:09] <alex_joni> yeah
[19:41:13] <alex_joni> same for the pins :)
[19:47:21] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, can you swap the motor to the other side of the saddle but leave the machine in the same orientation?
[19:47:31] <SWPadnos> err - table, not saddle
[19:47:45] <jmkasunich> you mean put the motor in the front?
[19:47:49] <SWPadnos> yep
[19:48:01] <SWPadnos> but leave the spindle motor accessible
[19:48:20] <jmkasunich> then it will stick out into the belly of the machine operator
[19:48:47] <SWPadnos> same as rotating the machine 180, but this leaves the spindle/drawbar stuff accessib;e
[19:48:55] <SWPadnos> s/;/l/
[19:49:00] <SWPadnos> :)
[19:49:29] <jmkasunich> motor on the front would stick out 4" beyond the bench with the table all the way back, and 15" with the table all the way forward
[19:49:40] <jmkasunich> plus it would block front access to the T-slots
[19:49:48] <SWPadnos> ah
[19:50:15] <jmkasunich> I actually found a source of spiral bevel gears, 2:1 ratio would cost about $75 for the set
[19:50:23] <SWPadnos> another option, which would limit the saddle travel (with the tailstock attached) is to mount the motor parallel to the table, instead of sticking out from it
[19:50:29] <jmkasunich> not sure how accurate they'd be, probably add backlash and other errors
[19:51:03] <jmkasunich> you mean so the motor comes between table and tailstock?
[19:51:08] <SWPadnos> yes
[19:51:25] <SWPadnos> like the elrod machine "space saver" mount for BP-alikes
[19:51:40] <jmkasunich> can't do that - there have been times when even the axis lock handle (maybe 1") has been too much - can't get close enough to the tailstock end of the part to do the work
[19:52:14] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[19:52:25] <jmkasunich> that is a problem in general with this kind of machine - a real lathe has a narrower cross-slide and a tailstock that exends farther
[19:52:25] <SWPadnos> well, unless you change the motor mounting, the total envelope of the machine won't change
[19:52:44] <jmkasunich> right - I was looking for ideas for changing the motor mounting
[19:53:11] <jmkasunich> the bevel gear approach would make the motor parallel to the spindle, pointing at (but behind) the tailstock
[19:54:00] <SWPadnos> change it to a linear 3-phase motor? ;)
[19:54:14] <jmkasunich> heh, I used to have one of those
[19:54:21] <SWPadnos> two, IIRC
[19:54:27] <jmkasunich> yep
[19:54:33] <SWPadnos> a bit big though, from what I remember
[19:54:35] <jmkasunich> but they were more for pic-n-place
[19:54:42] <jmkasunich> maybe 30-40 lbs force tops
[19:54:45] <SWPadnos> ah
[19:54:53] <jmkasunich> fast rather than strong
[19:55:12] <SWPadnos> right. sigh - always a tradeoff
[19:56:31] <jmkasunich> direct drive could save about 2.5", at the expense of resolution
[19:56:49] <SWPadnos> and torque
[19:56:53] <SWPadnos> unless it's a 1:1 drive
[19:57:11] <jmkasunich> with the existing 10 tpi acme screws, I have 40000 micro-steps per inch, but when I change to ballscrews (5tpi) it will be only 20000 usteps per inch
[19:57:28] <jmkasunich> and since a ustep isn't "real" (reliable increment of motion) I don't want to lose any more
[19:57:42] <SWPadnos> are you willing to lose machining envelope?
[19:57:45] <jmkasunich> this axis is the most critical IMO, because diameters are the most critical things you do on a lathe
[19:57:51] <jmkasunich> depends how much
[19:58:01] <SWPadnos> one step motor length ...
[19:58:08] <SWPadnos> mount the motor under the table
[19:58:12] <jmkasunich> that sounds like a lot
[19:58:15] <SWPadnos> yeah
[19:58:46] <SWPadnos> get a shorter motor?
[19:58:53] <cradek> I missed it - what's wrong with sticking out the back?
[19:59:05] <SWPadnos> the table has to be pulled out from the wall
[19:59:17] <jmkasunich> thats a lot - the travel is only 11"
[19:59:19] <SWPadnos> and the shield to protect everything behind it has to be that much bigger
[19:59:28] <SWPadnos> ah
[19:59:31] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: it's already out from the wall
[19:59:35] <cradek> oh, that seems minor compared to these other sacrifices
[19:59:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:59:44] <jmkasunich> the problem is hanging a guard out 10" behind the back of the bench
[20:00:01] <jmkasunich> that motor isn't the real one, lemme get a URL for the one I intend to get
[20:00:54] <jmkasunich> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL34H295-43-8B.pdf
[20:01:19] <jmkasunich> about the same overall length as the one I have on there now
[20:01:24] <SWPadnos> that back shaft won't help much
[20:01:29] <jmkasunich> no
[20:02:13] <jmkasunich> could cut it off
[20:02:28] <jmkasunich> they list a single shaft one with the same torque rating, but no electrical specs
[20:02:45] <jmkasunich> I chose that one because it is low voltage and low inductance, should have good high speed performance
[20:02:59] <jmkasunich> if the single shaft one is the same I could use it
[20:03:39] <jmkasunich> maybe I should just find a 10" deep box for my electrical stuff, and mount the guard to the top of the box
[20:04:12] <jmkasunich> I was thinking about a run to HGR today to look for a box, but I spend too much time farting around
[20:04:16] <jmkasunich> have to go tomorrow
[20:04:30] <jmkasunich> I need to be sure I understand what size I need before I go anyway
[20:05:05] <jmkasunich> lots of crap has to go in that box
[20:05:17] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I guess I should get this email off to Pete W soon
[20:06:08] <jmkasunich> PC mobo, hard disk, mesa board and interface cards, geckos, gecko power supply, spindle drive (eventually), contactors to connect either mill or lathe motor to spindle drive, ....
[20:06:44] <SWPadnos> I fired up Corel Draw (you might use EasyCAD) to lay out the cabinet design
[20:06:56] <jmkasunich> yeah, will do that
[20:07:01] <SWPadnos> just draw circles and rectangles of the right size, and play with it
[20:07:12] <SWPadnos> I have a 30 x 24 x 10 cabinet, and I
[20:07:12] <jmkasunich> but forst I gotta figure out how big the pieces are
[20:07:20] <SWPadnos> I have a 30 x 24 x 10 cabinet, and I'm not sure it's big enough
[20:07:28] <jmkasunich> this is for your bport?
[20:07:30] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:07:46] <jmkasunich> I'll probably put some things on the cabinet door
[20:07:50] <SWPadnos> and I'm not planning on putting the computer or VFD in it
[20:07:56] <jmkasunich> getting heat out of the box is an issue too
[20:08:00] <SWPadnos> yes
[20:08:17] <jmkasunich> I should go to work and bring home my current best candidate for the VFD power stage
[20:08:20] <SWPadnos> and keeping particulates out of the cabinet while still letting heat out is even harder
[20:08:48] <jmkasunich> right - I'm aiming for sealed, with most heatsources other than the PC mounted on heatsinks with fins outside the box
[20:09:33] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:10:10] <SWPadnos> and you may be able to get a low power PC motherboard that will still be able to do RT (not sure though)
[20:10:14] <jmkasunich> darn, too small: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=01-899-422&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0
[20:10:36] <jmkasunich> holy crap, enclosures are relatively cheap surplus
[20:10:51] <jmkasunich> 48x48x12 two door hoffman for $99
[20:11:14] <jmkasunich> 30x36x11 for $50
[20:12:33] <SWPadnos> hmmm - maybe that second one would be good for me ...
[20:12:47] <jmkasunich> the 4'x4'x12"?
[20:12:50] <SWPadnos> that's about what I paid for mine as well, including the backplate
[20:12:55] <jmkasunich> shipping would suck
[20:12:59] <SWPadnos> 2.5x3x0.83 ;)
[20:13:07] <SWPadnos> yes
[20:13:14] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: the kerney and trecker has 2 right angle bevel gears to get power to the axis. One on the z and y axis. (we are hoping to be able to remove them)
[20:13:15] <SWPadnos> I think it was only $10 for this one, from AZ
[20:13:37] <SWPadnos> (shipping, that is)
[20:13:47] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: the more I think about bevel gears the less I like them
[20:13:59] <SWPadnos> backlash city, I think
[20:14:03] <jmkasunich> yeah
[20:14:18] <jmkasunich> the motor is 3.4" wide, and about 4" long
[20:14:42] <jmkasunich> the mount currently adds 2.5" to the length, but that could be reduced with some creativity to maybe 1.5"
[20:14:59] <jmkasunich> so bevel gears reduce 5.5 to 3.4
[20:15:10] <jmkasunich> not enough of a gain to be worth the money and loss of accuracy
[20:15:16] <SWPadnos> nope
[20:18:35] <jmkasunich> oh. HGR is open until 5, I thought they closed at 4
[20:18:38] <jmkasunich> I should go today
[20:19:01] <SWPadnos> if only there were any industrial surplus within 100 miles of me... sigh
[20:19:05] <jmkasunich> I had been thinking of "how small (cheap) of a box can I fit all my stuff in"
[20:19:25] <jmkasunich> I should be thinking "how big of a box can I mount on the back of the bench" ;-)
[20:19:35] <SWPadnos> go for the depth - you can mount things "vertically" from the backplate (like power supplies and stuff)
[20:19:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:19:51] <jmkasunich> except I need access
[20:20:12] <jmkasunich> I have 31" from the back of the bench to the shelves, etc
[20:20:17] <SWPadnos> sure, but a toroid can be a medium-sized rectangle instead of a big circle ...
[20:20:22] <SWPadnos> ah
[20:20:27] <jmkasunich> cabinet depth subtracts from that
[20:20:35] <jmkasunich> and I gotta be able to open the door(s)
[20:20:48] <jmkasunich> unless I put nothing on the doors, and make sure they're removable
[20:20:50] <SWPadnos> but the motor hangs out 10", so that's "free"
[20:20:55] <jmkasunich> right
[20:21:22] <jmkasunich> the ideal box is 10" deep, with double doors (so they're not huge)
[20:22:25] <jmkasunich> I could move the whole machine 4-6" forward if I absolutely have to (groan)
[20:26:36] <jmkasunich> 26x30x10 plastic? $39
[20:26:42] <SWPadnos> ick
[20:27:03] <SWPadnos> no specific reason, just ick :)
[20:27:03] <jmkasunich> its sturdy plastic, NEMA 12 by the look of it
[20:27:07] <jmkasunich> but I agree
[20:27:15] <jmkasunich> I like the grounding and shielding of metal
[20:27:26] <SWPadnos> yeah, and hot chips and stuff
[20:27:47] <SWPadnos> plastic is also better at holding in heat (but doesn't handle it as well)
[20:28:09] <jmkasunich> right - wouldn't like hot chips much
[20:32:03] <jmkasunich> ok, I'm off
[20:32:10] <SWPadnos> see ya
[20:35:55] <alex_joni> hi SWPadnos
[20:36:02] <SWPadnos> hi alex_joni
[20:36:04] <alex_joni> still in the uk?
[20:36:10] <SWPadnos> nope, in the US now
[20:36:15] <alex_joni> nice.. back home?
[20:36:18] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:36:25] <SWPadnos> got in last night
[20:36:37] <alex_joni> still in jet-lag?
[20:37:24] <SWPadnos> not too bad, actually
[20:37:34] <SWPadnos> I went to bed early (like 11:00 or so)
[20:40:39] <SWPadnos> only 95 more emails to go through ...
[20:40:56] <alex_joni> heh .. that's almost nothing :)
[20:41:30] <SWPadnos> 95 left - there were 600+ this morning
[20:41:46] <SWPadnos> only 300 or so were spam, too
[20:41:53] <alex_joni> that sounds like the way it should be :/
[20:42:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:42:51] <alex_joni> s/should/would/
[21:12:15] <robin_sz> if I ever have the chnace to meet mr Epson, I would shake hime warmly by the hand
[21:12:52] <robin_sz> at least that way I have hold of him when I give him a well-deserved kicking :)
[21:13:30] <robin_sz> poxy printer has gone off because the internal counters have decided the waste ink pads are full
[21:13:33] <robin_sz> they arent.
[21:13:55] <anonimasu> lol
[21:14:08] <robin_sz> worse, the only way to reset them is with some service software thats only given to approved service centres
[21:14:38] <robin_sz> obviously I foounbd it on the net
[21:15:33] <alex_joni> so you're an approved service center now?
[21:15:41] <robin_sz> now I just need to find a DOS based PC to make it happen :(
[21:15:53] <alex_joni> freedos
[21:16:02] <robin_sz> hahahaha
[21:16:09] <robin_sz> you are so funny :)
[21:16:15] <alex_joni> what?
[21:16:23] <robin_sz> that free-dos thing
[21:16:29] <alex_joni> why?
[21:16:52] <robin_sz> well, it doesnt actually work does it
[21:16:58] <alex_joni> it should
[21:17:04] <robin_sz> probably yes
[21:17:06] <cradek> I run autocad on freedos
[21:17:37] <robin_sz> I wasted a few days setting up a box with freedos a while ago
[21:18:47] <robin_sz> networking seemed too hard for it ... and it refused to do the graphics and talking to the serial port well, no it refused to do that too
[21:19:06] <alex_joni> I don't think you need network for a printer
[21:19:20] <robin_sz> no .. that was for something else
[21:19:26] <cradek> dos doesn't do graphics or serial. typically apps talk directly to the hardware.
[21:19:48] <cradek> I do networking in freedos just fine (using the old ms lanman client)
[21:20:24] <cradek> I think you just don't remember how bad dos is :-)
[21:20:27] <robin_sz> well, the program kept whining about not being able to find some dos graphics thing if I remember
[21:21:06] <cradek> it's unlikely that was a problem specific to freedos, but I'd try to help if you have more details
[21:21:06] <robin_sz> neither of these seem to work under the winxp dos window thing
[21:21:32] <cradek> winxp blocks that kind of hardware access - few old dos apps will actually run
[21:21:44] <robin_sz> they do work fine under Win95 dos thing though .. .like I have a win95 box anymore :(
[21:21:52] <robin_sz> or is that :) ...
[21:22:00] <cradek> yes win95 pretty much let that stuff work
[21:22:27] <alex_joni> same for 98 and me
[21:22:46] <robin_sz> suprised there isnt some sort of hardware emulator for XP for dos based old crap
[21:22:59] <cradek> there is - it's vmware
[21:23:02] <alex_joni> what good would that do?
[21:23:15] <alex_joni> robin_sz: there are things you can install to allow for port access
[21:23:21] <robin_sz> really?
[21:23:22] <skunkworks> woo whooo - fwcutter works - ndiswrapper didn't
[21:23:23] <robin_sz> coo.
[21:23:28] <cradek> vmware might actually be able to give them access to serial ports etc.
[21:25:45] <A-L-P-H-A> anyone know of a app to help with roaming WPA wifi?
[21:27:33] <robin_sz> alex_joni, youre right!!! ther are things to let it talk to the port!!
[21:27:51] <robin_sz> http://www.beyondlogic.org/porttalk/porttalk.htm
[21:28:29] <alex_joni> yeah, that's what I was about to paste
[21:28:41] <alex_joni> I remember working with some sys and dll's to make it work
[21:28:59] <alex_joni> had a version of EMC that worked on the parport from XP at one point (way ago)
[21:29:20] <robin_sz> back in the days when windows seemed like a good idea?
[21:30:16] <robin_sz> I wonder if I ought to try freedos again ?
[21:31:23] <robin_sz> if I remember, the biggest pain was installing the thing
[21:31:33] <alex_joni> http://www.logix4u.net/inpout32.htm
[21:31:37] <alex_joni> that's what I used
[21:32:27] <cradek> robin_sz: ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/BusSys/Clients/LANMAN/
[21:33:04] <cradek> hmm, that doesn't work
[21:33:51] <cradek> robin_sz: http://oldfiles.org.uk/powerload/msdos.htm
[21:34:03] <cradek> search for Microsoft Network Client Version 3.0 for MS-DOS
[21:34:08] <cradek> makes two floppies
[21:34:30] <cradek> of course you need a supported network card (pretty much anything from the right era works)
[21:37:27] <robin_sz> it says there is a LiveCD version of DOS soemwhere
[21:38:00] <cradek> that seems a little hard to believe, but maybe it's possible
[21:38:23] <cradek> I used to netboot dos (using a netboot eprom on an isa network card)
[21:38:44] <cradek> actually used to run the maxnc mill that way!
[21:40:34] <robin_sz> coo
[21:40:44] <robin_sz> netboot dos or netboot freedos?
[21:41:07] <cradek> it was real ms dos at the time (years ago)
[21:41:24] <robin_sz> presumably I just need a eprom programmer to do that?
[21:41:30] <robin_sz> or can you buy eproms?
[21:41:41] <cradek> if you know what you're doing (and I doubt I still do) you could netboot freedos
[21:41:56] <cradek> I burned my own...
[21:42:09] <cradek> modern network cards don't even have sockets anymore, doubt anyone sells them
[21:42:21] <cradek> used to be ALL network cards had boot rom sockets
[21:43:59] <robin_sz> I dont think I have a prom balster anymore
[21:44:01] <cradek> I think I netbooted linux too, but linux could never swap over the network, so it's little use
[21:44:36] <robin_sz> so .. back to freedos then
[21:47:28] <robin_sz> sigh .. children refusing to go to bed ... I should beat them more often ;)
[21:47:54] <robin_sz> now, wheres my electric cattle prod ...
[21:57:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night
[22:06:04] <jtr> jmkasunich: That's easy -just move the bench 10" closer to the drill press.
[22:06:10] <jtr> * jtr cuts and runs
[22:08:13] <jtr> oops - didn't realize the conversation had gone past the shoptask table motor discussion.
[22:08:37] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is back from HGR
[22:08:45] <cradek> what did you bring us?
[22:08:57] <jmkasunich> on the way back, I was behind a car with the license plate "BFG 9K" ;-)
[22:09:08] <cradek> heh
[22:09:09] <jmkasunich> scored nicely, pics and details in a few mins
[22:25:59] <anonimasu> hm
[22:26:32] <anonimasu> cradek: they do sell cards with boot rom sockets..
[22:30:30] <jmkasunich> the score: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom
[22:33:29] <cradek> nice, especially the breakout
[22:34:35] <jmkasunich> if I have a space crunch in the big box, I can mount the little one either beside it near the tailstock end of the machien, or on the end of the bench under the headstock, and cram some more stuff in there
[22:35:07] <cradek> looks plenty big unless you end up with a huge motherboard
[22:35:20] <jmkasunich> I'm not so sure
[22:35:33] <jmkasunich> the PC is the tip of the iceberg
[22:36:36] <jmkasunich> geckos (small), gecko power supply (not small), spindle VFD (not small at all), contactors to connect either lathe or mill motor to the VFD, other contactors and relays for estop, etc, plus wiring (which takes space if you want it to be neat and easily serviced)
[22:37:55] <jmkasunich> I want to maintain separation between 120/240V wiring, especially the PWM wiring to the motors, and the signal/PC stuff too
[22:38:50] <jmkasunich> I had my eyes on a 36x36 box, which would just barely fit under the stepper with the bottom 1" from the ground, but decided that not being able to open the door all the way would suck
[22:39:05] <jmkasunich> this one _almost_ opens all the way, I have to move the bench an inch or two forward