#emc | Logs for 2006-11-30

[00:23:56] <skunkworks> cradek: did you figure out what the homing twitch was?
[00:24:05] <skunkworks> on your lathe
[00:24:25] <cradek> skunkworks: nope, but it was within deadband (probably one encoder count) so I'm not worried about it
[00:24:36] <cradek> maybe sometime when jmk has time I'll ask him about it
[00:25:20] <cradek> I wonder if I have my deadband set twice as large as it should be or something
[00:25:36] <skunkworks> sounds good. I need to find a nice 3 phase transformer to get around 150v dc out of. I am sure we have something laying around >:)
[00:25:55] <cradek> 3 phase for what?
[00:26:07] <skunkworks> just get a smoother dc out.
[00:26:11] <cradek> ah
[00:26:37] <cradek> so you have 3 phase in your shop already
[00:26:46] <skunkworks> yes
[00:26:50] <skunkworks> comes in handy
[00:26:51] <cradek> I don't - might be a problem for getting a full size mill
[00:27:15] <skunkworks> we lucked out as the 3 phase lines went through our land.
[00:27:43] <skunkworks> i would be looking at vfd's tehn
[00:27:44] <skunkworks> then
[00:27:45] <Rugludallur> * Rugludallur feels for you guys, over here even suburban homes get 3 phase
[00:27:50] <cradek> I do have 240 in the garage (welder) and barn (kiln), but that's all
[00:28:29] <skunkworks> Rugludallur: where is over here?
[00:28:41] <Rugludallur> iceland, but much of europe is like this, at least scandinavia
[00:28:50] <skunkworks> nice
[00:29:09] <cradek> what are normal wall outlets then? 220 balanced across ground?
[00:29:21] <Rugludallur> 230v to neutral
[00:29:39] <cradek> ah
[00:29:49] <Rugludallur> your mains is 3 phase, 400v phase to phase, gives 230v to neutral
[00:30:02] <cradek> so your breaker box has three sets in it, not two like ours
[00:30:10] <Rugludallur> yup
[00:30:12] <cradek> cool
[00:30:27] <cradek> I think that's very rare (in residential) here
[00:30:33] <skunkworks> very
[00:30:34] <Rugludallur> it's also recommended that you distribute the load on all phases
[00:30:38] <cradek> sure
[00:30:50] <Rugludallur> smallest for a home here is 63A 400v
[00:31:11] <skunkworks> ours are 200a single phase.
[00:31:16] <skunkworks> 220v
[00:31:23] <skunkworks> normally now
[00:31:25] <Rugludallur> 180° phases ?
[00:31:36] <Rugludallur> 2x110 that is ?
[00:31:38] <cradek> yes
[00:32:13] <cradek> a few appliances use the full 220 - any electric stove, clothes dryer, hot tub, that kind of thing
[00:32:48] <cradek> air conditioner
[00:32:55] <Rugludallur> makes sense
[00:34:12] <skunkworks> go to any of the big box stores and you will be hard pressed to find any 3 phase stuff
[00:34:23] <Rugludallur> I think all of europe has now commited to 3 phase Y 230v/400v +-10%
[00:34:35] <Rugludallur> hmm do you guys get delta or Y 3phase ?
[00:34:54] <cradek> don't ask me!
[00:35:00] <skunkworks> Don
[00:35:27] <skunkworks> don't remember. we have the cheapest 3 phase service. it has a wild leg
[00:35:45] <skunkworks> 170+ to ground on one leg
[00:35:54] <skunkworks> (230 3 phase)
[00:36:16] <Rugludallur> delta :P
[00:38:50] <Rugludallur> I wonder if there will ever come a time for a universal mains standard.. .... nah never
[00:40:55] <cradek> or mains frequency? or tv encoding? radio channels? which side of the road to drive on?
[00:41:08] <Rugludallur> inches or metric :P
[00:41:13] <cradek> and when will all you guys learn to use feet and fractional inches!?
[00:41:19] <cradek> haha yeah that
[00:41:26] <Rugludallur> it's a small wonder we all use the same unit for time
[00:41:36] <skunkworks> we do? :)
[00:41:38] <cradek> yeah, it's very surprising
[00:41:59] <Rugludallur> and I think we should be thankfull for it, imagine the pain if there were metric seconds :P
[00:43:00] <Rugludallur> or should I say imagine if we USED metric seconds in europe
[00:44:22] <cradek> metric days would make more sense
[00:44:39] <cradek> eat lunch at around 0.5
[00:44:50] <cradek> easy to add and subtract times etc.
[00:45:13] <cradek> you're pretty much stuck with the crazy year/season/day relationship on earth
[00:45:14] <Rugludallur> if it was already adopted it would make things so much easier but ....
[00:45:36] <skunkworks> I could see that. people would freak out and die though
[00:45:52] <cradek> sure would
[00:46:02] <cradek> I guess it works ok as-is
[00:46:24] <cradek> if you can't have 10 or 100, 60 is a nice number too
[00:46:48] <skunkworks> cradek: not if we pushed the earth a little further out in orbit. make it a 400 day year. little better. maybe help with the global warming.
[00:47:12] <Rugludallur> hmm how about we just eject australia ?
[00:47:15] <Rugludallur> that should fix it
[00:47:37] <cradek> sure, no one goes there anyway
[00:47:54] <Rugludallur> we could call them Moon2
[00:47:58] <cradek> and eastern europe - all those countries that you don't even know where they are
[00:48:19] <Rugludallur> hmm I don't want to loose alex though
[00:48:35] <cradek> yeah he could move first
[00:48:59] <Rugludallur> ill start drawing out the plans ..
[00:49:22] <cradek> Rugludallur: how many hours of daylight do you have now?
[00:50:17] <Rugludallur> getting down to 5
[00:50:29] <cradek> do you get down to 0 or are you not far enough north?
[00:50:37] <cradek> * cradek lets his ignorance show
[00:51:01] <Rugludallur> nahh we go down to 4
[00:51:36] <skunkworks> wow I feel back going to work with the sun coming up - and going homee with the sun going down.
[00:51:42] <skunkworks> bad]
[00:51:52] <cradek> me too
[00:51:54] <skunkworks> really - I am not drinking.
[00:52:10] <jepler> i drink when I feel bad
[00:52:25] <Rugludallur> hey, but come summer we get 20+ hours of daylight
[00:53:39] <Rugludallur> the sun is above the horizon for just over 21 hours during the "longest day" so we make up for all the time spent inside
[00:54:04] <cradek> wow
[00:54:18] <cradek> I definitely like our "long" summer days
[00:55:03] <skunkworks> you guys must be really happy bunch in the summer and really cranky in the winter. sed?
[00:55:48] <skunkworks> seasonal effictive dissorder or something like that
[00:56:13] <Rugludallur> not really, most have developed a sort of immunity
[00:57:00] <Rugludallur> it's a selective breeding thing
[00:57:18] <Rugludallur> :P
[00:57:39] <Rugludallur> people from further south have a way harder time dealing with it
[00:57:58] <Rugludallur> but apparently what bugs them the most is not being able to sleep during summer
[02:33:25] <owhite> hey peeple.
[02:34:18] <cradek> hi
[02:34:36] <skunkworks> Cool - we found a 6kva 3 phase transformer. 440/220 in - 260v out. We will run 220 in the 440 taps to get around 130v out (tons of primary taps to adjust) so it will be around 3kva I think
[02:35:09] <skunkworks> owhite: how is the laser cutting?
[02:35:12] <swamidog> hello
[02:35:35] <owhite> skunkworks: my llaser is cutting great.
[02:35:55] <owhite> friends. I'm here visiting with swamidog, and I have a question about driving lasers.
[02:36:20] <owhite> what we need is to make a PWM circuit to control the power of swami's laser.
[02:36:34] <swamidog> * swamidog waggles laser
[02:36:45] <owhite> so we'd need to generate a squarewave and 25khz, and then vary the duty cycle.
[02:36:48] <owhite> so.
[02:36:53] <owhite> ...the question becomes.
[02:36:59] <owhite> CAN EMC DO IT!?
[02:37:15] <owhite> cradek: do you think that'd be a good application for emc?
[02:37:25] <owhite> (or anyone else)
[02:37:46] <cradek> what controller is he using? just parallel port?
[02:37:54] <owhite> for now, lets say its the parallel.
[02:37:54] <skunkworks> how is the duty cycle set - once at the begining of the program - or is it in relation to velocity or something?
[02:38:04] <cradek> you can generate pwm on the parallel port but the resolution and frequency are limited
[02:38:10] <owhite> no, for now it wouldnt be based on velocity.
[02:38:30] <owhite> right. I think, that we need something around 25khz.
[02:38:35] <cradek> you can get decent resolution out of pdm (pulse density modulation)
[02:38:57] <skunkworks> cradek: how many levels out of true pwm (pwmgen) at 25khz?
[02:38:58] <cradek> how many levels do you need at 25kHz? you could only get a few I think
[02:39:08] <owhite> is that a software thing in the interface?
[02:39:26] <owhite> when you say levels, do you mean like 10% duty cycle, 20% duty, etc?
[02:39:29] <cradek> right
[02:40:00] <owhite> I think that we only need a small number of levels for duty cycle, lets say 5-10.
[02:40:10] <owhite> to be honest, I think we need one. but hey.
[02:40:22] <cradek> how sure are you that you need 25kHz...?
[02:40:33] <owhite> I am very not sure. :-)
[02:41:10] <cradek> to get ten levels of true pwm (constant period) the period will have to be something like 200 usec, which is a frequency of 5kHz
[02:41:11] <owhite> the background is that swami and I both have the same laser, its not the one I use for cutting. I made a circuit to drive it, I'm trying to decide if swami should make his laser driver in software.
[02:41:59] <cradek> you might get a little more out of a very fast machine, but not 25kHz
[02:41:57] <owhite> I'm making the case for "we could do everything in software that I did in a circuit" kind of thing.
[02:42:06] <cradek> I understand
[02:42:18] <owhite> * owhite is showing off, he's a big EMC expert now.
[02:42:36] <cradek> if you switch to hardware that generates the pwm, you can get anything you want of course
[02:42:55] <owhite> yes. I'm thinking about that. we may have to go the hardware route.
[02:42:56] <cradek> but software generation is always a tradeoff - it's much slower
[02:43:28] <skunkworks> jeplers fpga?
[02:43:29] <cradek> I use the pwm for spindle control etc., it needs a lot of levels but you can smooth it with a one second time constant and it's just peachy
[02:44:01] <cradek> if you can use PDM (variable period) you can get a lot of resolution
[02:44:13] <cradek> but you need that long time constant still
[02:44:26] <skunkworks> cradek, jepler and I are all running pdm out of emc to run servos. works great
[02:44:28] <cradek> skunkworks: yes, that might just work
[02:44:47] <cradek> skunkworks: actually I'm using true pwm on mine
[02:45:04] <skunkworks> really - what period and frequency? and how many levels?
[02:45:17] <skunkworks> base period
[02:45:20] <owhite> in fact, I already built one board for controlling the laser with a microcntroller: nilno.com/laser_intro/controller.htm
[02:46:27] <cradek> skunkworks: frequency 8kHz so it must have +- 5 levels only
[02:46:55] <skunkworks> 5 levels to run your servos?
[02:47:01] <cradek> yes
[02:47:11] <skunkworks> that doesn't seem right :)
[02:47:20] <cradek> they're little, remember
[02:47:25] <cradek> owhite: 404
[02:47:30] <skunkworks> is it dithering?
[02:47:41] <cradek> nope
[02:47:55] <skunkworks> wow - I would not thought it would work - impressive.
[02:48:03] <swamidog> cradek: http://nilno.com/laser_intro/controller.html
[02:48:03] <swamidog> +l
[02:48:23] <cradek> wow, looks complicated
[02:49:15] <cradek> skunkworks: I agree it seems unlikely
[02:50:02] <owhite> what the controller is complicated? I dunno. its mostly meant to drive LED displays and crap.
[02:50:04] <cradek> skunkworks: if I turn the pulley by hand, I can feel each of the levels until it FEs
[02:50:23] <skunkworks> cradek: Good test :)
[02:50:45] <skunkworks> why did you decide on using true pwm? just to play?
[02:51:02] <cradek> skunkworks: I tried it because I didn't like the songs it would sing with pdm
[02:51:04] <owhite> okay. so I think the message is that maybe EMC should be driving a little bit of hardware that's handling the PWM.
[02:51:30] <owhite> would anyone want to shout out the circuitry they'd use to handle the hardware part?
[02:51:41] <cradek> owhite: yeah that's what you have to do if the resolution/frequency tradeoff is unacceptable
[02:51:48] <owhite> got it.
[02:52:05] <skunkworks> owhite: depends on what you actually need for levels and how accurite the frequency needs to be
[02:52:28] <owhite> right. levels, dont think we need that much. and the frequency does not need to be accurate.
[02:52:48] <owhite> CO2 lasers are crude that's why we like them.
[02:53:08] <cradek> then are you sure 10 levels at 4-5kHz isn't enough? you could always try it (without building anything)
[02:53:35] <owhite> I can look into it by hooking up the laser to a freq generator and just giving it a shot.
[02:53:41] <owhite> then take it to the software level.
[02:53:46] <cradek> good idea
[02:54:30] <cradek> seems like there are all sorts of choices for the external hardware
[02:54:40] <owhite> how would you handle it if you were going with some circuitry? I'd probably use an AVR board, they're like a $14.
[02:55:17] <owhite> then use my laser to make a box, put a D-connector on it, mail it to swamidog :-)
[02:55:37] <owhite> life is a beautiful thing when you can make your own custom enclosure.
[02:55:38] <swamidog> * swamidog nods
[02:55:55] <cradek> not sure if we have an "A-to-D" hal component (float in, several bits out) but you could write that if not, and hook that to some parport pins
[02:55:56] <swamidog> building tools to make other tools is a beautiful thing
[02:56:26] <cradek> then your AVR would be a counting/incrementing loop that reads those bits, compares, and sets the output
[02:56:31] <owhite> yes. I built a $20,000 laser that saves me the trouble of buying a $30 enclosure.
[02:56:40] <owhite> cradek: right.
[02:57:31] <cradek> you should be able to do 25kHz 255 levels I bet
[02:57:46] <owhite> just one other question. out of curiosity, has anyone heard of EMC driving the galvanometers -- swamidog also uses them to deflect the beam of colored lasers.
[02:57:49] <cradek> you waste 8 parport bits (but parports are cheap)
[02:58:13] <cradek> owhite: I don't even know what that is
[02:58:25] <owhite> swamidog will explain. maybe.
[02:58:37] <swamidog> cradek: think of them as motors with mirrors on the shaft
[02:58:37] <owhite> they are like superfast methods of deflecting mirrors.
[02:58:48] <cradek> ah ok
[02:58:58] <cradek> I've seen some diagrams of the things they use for laser light shows
[02:59:06] <swamidog> cradek: that's right
[02:59:22] <owhite> I think its still a matter of TTL control, using on the order of 8 bits to handle deflection.
[02:59:39] <owhite> but they are freaking fast -- swami: do you know a hertz they operate at?
[02:59:42] <swamidog> i have a nice little unit that can display 30K points per second at 7 degrees of deflection
[02:59:48] <skunkworks> sounds like a job for kins :)
[02:59:58] <swamidog> that's pretty freaking fast
[03:00:04] <owhite> skunkworks: kins?
[03:00:15] <swamidog> for big money, you can to 45-50K pps
[03:00:27] <swamidog> to==do
[03:01:00] <cradek> swamidog: are those closed loop (encoders?) with pid control?
[03:01:11] <swamidog> let me dig up a url for you
[03:01:31] <cradek> the ones I saw had something that looked like encoders on them
[03:01:41] <swamidog> http://www.lasershs.com/laser_scan_engine.htm
[03:01:45] <cradek> (I bet otherwise you could only draw circles or sine waves)
[03:02:22] <cradek> yep closed-loop
[03:02:28] <swamidog> i use them to laser project rude words onto buildings
[03:02:29] <cradek> cool
[03:02:44] <skunkworks> kids these days :)
[03:02:47] <cradek> a good use for $2k worth of hardware (plus a laser)
[03:02:47] <swamidog> ;)
[03:02:56] <swamidog> exactly!
[03:03:01] <cradek> and it says it's low cost!
[03:03:06] <owhite> * owhite wonders what the mean age of the people on #emc is.
[03:03:16] <swamidog> i'm also a photographer, so i've done some nice work laser projecting onto nudes
[03:03:16] <skunkworks> I would guess 35
[03:03:26] <cradek> skunkworks: don't forget to count ray :-)
[03:03:28] <skunkworks> but ray skews it a bit ;)
[03:03:32] <swamidog> not using the co2 laser!
[03:03:34] <cradek> haha
[03:03:40] <owhite> :-)
[03:04:29] <cradek> everyone but one I've met in person is >30 so the mean may be over 35
[03:04:37] <owhite> so what's the deal with closed loop? isnt all servo driving closed loop?
[03:04:46] <cradek> but there are a lot of us in the 30-40 range I think
[03:04:52] <owhite> <--- 44.
[03:04:58] <cradek> but there are a lot of us in the 30-45 range I think
[03:04:59] <swamidog> 38
[03:05:00] <owhite> in dog years.
[03:06:27] <swamidog> laser projection on nude: http://www.monkeyhands.com/images/messy-swap/messy3.jpg
[03:06:47] <owhite> hey hey. #emc is getting all artsey.
[03:06:59] <skunkworks> KINEMATICS would allow you to say have your 2 axis control - how ever the mechenism works - act how ever you want. ok that is confusing and I may not understant it compleatly.
[03:07:32] <skunkworks> hope that is a low wattage laser ;)
[03:07:52] <swamidog> i was using about 50mw
[03:08:06] <cradek> say for your two deflection mirrors you want to use something like spherical coordinates - kinematics is what does the translation to/from orthogonal (which is all you can do with gcode)
[03:09:39] <swamidog> projection onto a building: http://www.monkeyhands.com/images/photos/laser-graf.jpg
[03:15:15] <A-L-P-H-A> swamidog, who's camera is that? there looks to be a few dead pixels on that camera.
[03:15:35] <swamidog> alpha: that was a crappy old nikon coolpix
[03:15:41] <cradek> dark doesn't help any
[03:31:25] <owhite> hey people. just a silly thing. I noticed I put the wrong web page on my laser controller/PWM board. the site is this: http://www.nilno.com/laser_driver/intro.htm
[03:31:55] <owhite> no wonder cradek said "looks complicated."
[03:32:11] <cradek> ahh
[03:32:54] <owhite> a minor thing. the other board was for my laser that does all kind of stuff. this is a just for pushing pwm to the laser, with a digital readout.
[03:33:33] <owhite> okay. see everyone later.
[03:34:16] <swamidog> cradek: no. i was shooting film back then, but needed immediate gratification
[04:48:09] <tomp> hello
[04:50:07] <tomp> i'm feeding a +/- 10V signal into stgII card, and have both a real meter and a halmeter connected to stg.0.adc-value
[04:50:57] <tomp> the real meter shows I can vary the input from -10 to 0 to +10V, but halmeter shows 0 to +20, bothe meters connected to same 2 pins.
[04:51:19] <tomp> (real meter used as monitor)
[04:52:18] <cradek> tomp: set stg.x.dac-offset?
[04:53:04] <tomp> ok, can try... is offset necc for a bipolar signal?
[04:53:18] <cradek> necc?
[04:53:32] <tomp> neccesary
[04:53:37] <cradek> volts = (*(stg->dac_value[i]) - stg->dac_offset[i]) * stg->dac_gain[i];
[04:54:06] <tomp> ok
[04:54:07] <cradek> errr adc-offset sorry
[04:54:17] <cradek> duh
[04:55:07] <cradek> volts = 10.0 - (ncounts * 20.0 / 0x1FFF);
[04:55:07] <cradek> *(stg->adc_value[i]) = volts * stg->adc_gain[i] - stg->adc_offset[i];
[04:55:18] <cradek> huh, in head it seems like you should get -10 to 10
[04:56:45] <tomp> well adc offset made it read correctly...
[04:57:04] <cradek> what did you set it to?
[04:57:17] <tomp> 10 (no sign)
[04:59:23] <tomp> hmm, seems upside down, meter shows +9.32, halmeter shows -9.46.... wiring seems correct (sgl to P2-1, and ref to P2-2
[04:59:56] <cradek> setp stg.x.adc-gain -1
[05:00:10] <tomp> oooh...
[05:00:26] <cradek> wonder if there's a stg2 bug, maybe this is only well tested on stg1
[05:01:31] <tomp> with stg.0.adc-gain -1 , now have -10 to -30 :-o
[05:01:37] <cradek> haha
[05:01:40] <cradek> you'll get it
[05:02:39] <cradek> offset 20? -20? 30? something like that
[05:02:56] <cradek> maybe the intent is to make it easy to scale to 0...1
[05:02:58] <tomp> ok, got it... gain -1, offset -10 (is this neccesary, i see it works but it seems like i'm working around a problem )
[05:03:20] <cradek> you might mention it to alex when he gets back
[05:03:39] <tomp> hokay, thanks for the help
[05:03:43] <cradek> welcome
[05:05:23] <tomp> this is a simulation, i plan to use a circuit to evaluate an EDM process to +/- 10V ( an error signal : the diff between what I want & what I got )
[05:05:43] <cradek> for adaptive feed?
[05:06:29] <tomp> yep, this is how most edms work... the process drives the motion, and lag/speed are irrelevant... but...
[05:07:07] <tomp> i'll send this signal right to an amp ( single axis edm ), and monitor the position with Hal ( this is all quuite outside emc proper)
[05:07:25] <cradek> ah
[05:07:30] <tomp> monitor means I'll do something when a number is reached
[05:07:43] <cradek> if you do it in emc, it would stop at the right place
[05:08:03] <cradek> plus you'd get to try out the new adaptive feed
[05:08:07] <tomp> like halt motion and wait for the process to fizzle out ( spark out)
[05:08:33] <cradek> well you could have it stop, or withdraw, or whatever with the gcode
[05:08:38] <tomp> sorry adaptive feed is only adaptive slow down, never reverse, and this signal will go fwd & bwd
[05:08:47] <cradek> ah I see
[05:09:16] <tomp> it will 'hover' and will jump back on short, all 'naturally' no gcode needed
[05:09:56] <cradek> sounds like a nice simple solution for one axis
[05:11:18] <tomp> like old analog computers & circuits, oughtta be able to do circles too... divide the signal across n amps, proportioned according to slope/arc.
[05:12:10] <tomp> but single axis for now...
[05:16:13] <tomp> thanks again, good nite
[09:38:40] <anonimasu> jm
[09:38:46] <A-L-P-H-A> hi
[09:38:48] <A-L-P-H-A> but jm works.
[13:44:35] <skunkworks> morning ray!
[13:47:50] <rayh> How you doing down there?
[14:01:36] <skunkworks> cold
[14:01:58] <skunkworks> not used to it yet
[14:03:38] <skunkworks> the only good part is the ski hill is starting to make snow.
[14:12:16] <rayh> 10f here this morning.
[14:13:18] <skunkworks> up until yesterday it hasn't really dipped below 45
[14:14:15] <rayh> started at 45 yesterday by night it was 30
[14:50:18] <skunkworks> cradek: what do you use the kiln for?
[14:50:48] <CIA-8> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/Master_User.lyx: Fix center in config section
[15:04:26] <cradek> skunkworks: holding down the ground, mostly
[15:05:03] <cradek> skunkworks: I've slumped some glass in it
[15:13:58] <skunkworks> I had visions of you making your own pottery. :)
[15:14:30] <skunkworks> wait - did you buy it off of ebay?
[15:14:49] <skunkworks> :)
[15:30:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[15:49:04] <cradek> skunkworks: no, I have no artistic talent
[15:55:21] <skunkworks> same here
[15:55:37] <jepler> skunkworks: are you going to build a version of your servo drive with a current limit?
[15:55:54] <skunkworks> at some point. I will probably try to destroy this one first
[15:56:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> logger_emc: bookmark
[15:56:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-11-30.txt
[15:56:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> throwing pots is fun :D
[15:56:51] <skunkworks> I have a transformer now that will output 130+v at 3kva - so I should be able to ;)
[15:58:51] <jepler> go for it
[15:59:09] <skunkworks> I will give it my best shot :)
[16:05:37] <skunkworks> anyone know a good source for .01ohm resister at 15w-20w
[16:07:21] <cradek> a piece of 12 ga wire?
[16:07:40] <skunkworks> :)
[16:08:02] <skunkworks> low inductive
[16:08:36] <alex_jon1> hi all
[16:08:37] <skunkworks> I do have a .03 (I think) aluminum cased resister -
[16:08:42] <skunkworks> I alex
[16:08:46] <skunkworks> hi alex
[16:08:47] <alex_jon1> hi sam
[16:08:56] <alex_jon1> alex_jon1 is now known as alex_joni
[16:09:18] <skunkworks> back?
[16:09:28] <alex_joni> yeah, finally
[16:09:40] <alex_joni> was getting problems from the internet lack :D
[16:11:58] <alex_joni> so.. what's happening?
[16:12:05] <alex_joni> except flooding my emc- inbox :D
[16:12:21] <skunkworks> jepler how knows how to program fpga's :)
[16:13:02] <alex_joni> nice ;)
[16:15:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi alex
[16:20:02] <jepler> alex_joni: yeah -- so far I've worked on a 4xPWM, 4xQuadrature counter firmware -- basically, a poor man's PPMC
[16:20:33] <jepler> skunkworks is going to be one of my betatesters, he bravely purchased one of these boards I'm using
[16:20:41] <jepler> skunkworks: they're what, 70$ shipped?
[16:24:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shipped to US or shipped worldwide?
[16:24:27] <jepler> to US I think
[16:25:12] <jepler> no, apparently he ships worldwide
[16:25:20] <jepler> http://www.knjn.com/ShopInfo.html
[16:27:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> coo, no extra charge
[16:41:01] <Dallur> lol, the last message in my inbox is from "Alex" where he states that distributing emc with ubuntu is not the way to go, that it is to hard for a novice user like him, For a split second there I thought Alex_Joni had snapped ..
[16:41:30] <SWPadnos> he
[16:41:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:58:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah, I did that too when he posted the first message
[17:04:20] <alex_joni> Dallur: I got that a lot
[17:04:41] <alex_joni> jepler: very nice
[17:05:04] <alex_joni> 70$ + hassle sure seems like a deal to me
[17:05:51] <jepler> + hassle?
[17:05:59] <jepler> which hassle do you mean?
[17:06:07] <alex_joni> first time setting up
[17:06:10] <jepler> (for me, it's the way the dev tools have to run on windows)
[17:06:14] <alex_joni> the work you are doing
[17:10:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex, do you know of something better?
[17:11:49] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: better?
[17:11:54] <alex_joni> no, not at all
[17:12:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> than $70 and making a driver
[17:12:11] <alex_joni> and if jeff is doing the hard work, and shares it afterwards .. it's just GREAT
[17:12:22] <alex_joni> maybe not for Jon Elson and other board suppliers :D
[17:13:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, I think I misunderstood what you said, you "sounded" rather sarcastic IMO
[17:13:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you still need to amplify the signal
[17:13:27] <jepler> this is stricktly hobbyist-level stuff. For instance, there's no optoisolation, no multiple boards supported, max 4PWM and 4 quadrature...
[17:13:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and stuff
[17:13:32] <alex_joni> oh, didn't mean to sound that at all
[17:13:35] <jepler> strictly
[17:13:59] <alex_joni> jepler: might it not be possible to add additional boards lateron?
[17:14:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how fast can you drive optocouplers/some other method of isolator? (1:1 transformer?)
[17:14:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> at least for high-speed signals
[17:14:14] <alex_joni> or is the pci interface crippled?
[17:14:31] <jepler> alex_joni: this is a parport board, not PCI.
[17:14:40] <alex_joni> oops :D
[17:14:45] <alex_joni> serves me well not looking up stuff ;)
[17:14:53] <alex_joni> bbl
[17:15:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler: is there anything that would stop you from using several, and having several parports?
[17:15:00] <jepler> alex_joni: fpga4fun does have a PCI board but it's much more expensive
[17:15:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> with 8 I and 8 O you can do lots
[17:17:26] <jepler> I don't think I'll personally need multiple modules, so I am not likely to add that feature
[17:17:54] <jepler> both multiple modules per parport bus and multiple parport buses would be possible in theory; one module per bus, multiple buses would be easiest to add
[17:19:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's what I was thinking, one fpga per pci add-on card, you could easily get 3-4 units in a box
[17:19:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> needing 16 IOs is not very likely though ;)
[17:20:49] <jepler> depends on the machine
[17:22:04] <SWPadnos> 16 I/Os is small potatoes :)
[17:22:10] <jepler> the mazak needs a motenc-lite (servos and some digital I/O), an ax5214 (32I/16O), and the parport
[17:22:27] <SWPadnos> especially if you want any external pendants/buttons
[17:23:55] <jepler> if you just want I/Os that you can toggle or check at the servo rate then the 72 I/O point PCI-8255 looks nice -- I have been offered a board and will write a driver for it soon
[17:24:39] <SWPadnos> aren't those PCI boards more expensive than the Pluto?
[17:25:45] <jepler> you need several pluto-p modules to get 72 I/O points
[17:25:55] <SWPadnos> that's true
[17:25:57] <jepler> a PCI-8255 is less expensive than 2 pluto-p
[17:26:11] <SWPadnos> aren't they in the $129 range?
[17:26:17] <SWPadnos> err - $99 range?
[17:26:35] <jepler> $65+S&H http://futurlec.com/PCI8255.shtml
[17:26:40] <jepler> maybe you have a different board in mind
[17:26:42] <SWPadnos> oh - that's not bad then
[17:26:52] <jepler> of course there's no opto or anything
[17:26:59] <SWPadnos> I usually eliminate the non-protected boards from consideration
[17:27:00] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:27:25] <jepler> a hobbyist doesn't mind if a fault in his servo drive roasts his $2000 PC
[17:27:39] <SWPadnos> of course not
[17:27:40] <jepler> that's my definition of "hobbyist" anyway
[17:28:09] <SWPadnos> "one who takes risks because they won't get sued or miss deadlines if something fails"
[17:28:14] <SWPadnos> how's that for a definition ;)
[17:28:58] <Dallur> As long as you are not running plasma, High Freq. + No Opto Isolation is a very very very very bad idea
[17:30:11] <Dallur> * Dallur has killed a partport or two
[17:31:12] <skunkworks> I suprisingly have not killed a single printer port _yet_
[17:31:14] <jepler> surprisingly, I haven't yet
[17:31:27] <skunkworks> And I have done a lot to try ;)
[17:31:41] <jepler> even on the day that I accidentally put 12V across my parport, backwards
[17:32:49] <flyer> help with stepper
[17:33:39] <jepler> flyer: sure, what's your question?
[17:33:48] <skunkworks> wow IE 7 just closed without even a hickup
[17:34:05] <jepler> skunkworks: IE 7? What's wrong with you?
[17:34:20] <flyer> emc works good but g0 will skip steps
[17:34:32] <skunkworks> :) I am not getting into that argument
[17:35:37] <jepler> flyer: if your motors lose position, then you must lower the acceleration or velocity specified in the inifile until it no longer happens.
[17:36:06] <flyer> ok
[17:36:21] <flyer> both or one at a time
[17:36:23] <jepler> flyer: first, set your acceleration low, and using long "G1" moves find the velocity that your motors can go
[17:36:51] <jepler> for instance: run G1 F10 X10 / X0
[17:37:06] <jepler> to go at 10 inches per minute to X10, and then go back to X0
[17:37:28] <jepler> F is in inches per minute, but the velocity in the ini file is in inches per second (or millimeters, if you are using metric units)
[17:37:54] <flyer> it will do that but f20 over shoots
[17:38:11] <jepler> once you've found the top speed that never loses steps or stalls, then set that in the inifile, and now you can find your maximum acceleration.
[17:38:35] <jepler> unfortunately, it's necessary to restart emc every time you want to try a different acceleration value
[17:38:40] <jepler> acceleration is in units/second^2
[17:39:17] <flyer> ok thanks I will try that
[17:40:31] <flyer> also z only goes half what i put in have pully on that one axis
[17:41:37] <jepler> in that case, change your INPUT_SCALE for that axis
[17:44:11] <flyer> one last thing some g code was put in and the x0 and y0 will home but zaxis when home sets to .024
[17:46:06] <jepler> you may have created a G92 or G54 offset.
[17:46:14] <jepler> Which GUI are you using? Tkemc? AXIS?
[17:46:25] <flyer> axis
[17:47:16] <anonimasu> I wish axis would indicate that you have a offset somewhere, more chearly then in the modal codes box.. :)
[17:48:30] <flyer> how can I take the offset out
[17:50:01] <jepler> just a second -- it's a little bit different in the axis for emc 2.0.4 than in the development version, and I want to make sure I give you the right instruction
[17:50:20] <flyer> ok
[17:50:51] <jepler> right after you have homed Z, you want to use the Offset button (it may be marked "Touch Off", I'm not sure). If it prompts you for a number, enter 0
[17:51:31] <flyer> ok thanks very much for your help
[17:52:07] <jepler> did that work?
[17:52:31] <flyer> dont know need to go to the shop
[17:53:01] <jepler> you can also cancel the g54 offset by typing this in MDI: G10L2P1X0Y0Z0
[17:53:23] <flyer> I was thinking if I put in a gcode in mdi
[17:53:33] <flyer> you red my mind
[17:53:53] <jepler> if that doesn't do it, then try this in MDI: G92.1
[17:54:10] <flyer> ok
[17:54:11] <jepler> AXIS uses a g54 offset when you use the Offset or Touch Off button, while tkemc and mini use a g92 offset
[17:54:50] <jepler> It's my lunchtime, but I'll be around later .. others here may also be able to help you out
[17:54:57] <flyer> ok thanks
[17:57:34] <Guest705> Guest705 is now known as skunkworks
[17:58:26] <skunkworks> I figure on a lot of opto22's for isolation
[17:58:59] <skunkworks> (for controlling hydraulic solinoids and such)
[18:01:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> standard optocoupler?
[18:02:27] <skunkworks> sort of an industrial optocoupler
[18:04:57] <skunkworks> http://www.opto22.com/site/pr_cat_sc.aspx?qs=100310071001
[18:10:01] <eholmgren> haven't blown a parport yet ...
[18:10:18] <eholmgren> but I managed to smoke one of my centent drives the other evening
[18:10:49] <SWPadnos> I'm sure Mariss will be pleased
[18:11:01] <eholmgren> phases abcd on pins 3456 ... was looking at an angle and hooked the motor up to 4567
[18:11:11] <SWPadnos> urk
[18:11:18] <eholmgren> I blame the brandy
[18:11:20] <eholmgren> ;)
[18:11:21] <eholmgren> and the late hour of the night
[18:11:24] <SWPadnos> that's bad for the disable input
[18:11:45] <eholmgren> it was a CN0142
[18:11:55] <eholmgren> I think pin 7 isn't used on that one
[18:12:20] <SWPadnos> oh - that's not too bad then, until the drive tries to push the A and B coils in opposite directions ;)
[18:12:38] <eholmgren> that drive makes my PSU squeal whenever I try and use it now though
[18:13:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 5ms on/off time! really bad!
[18:13:19] <eholmgren> it makes for a nice paper weight now
[18:13:49] <eholmgren> just glad I didn;t do that to one of the CN0162's
[18:14:02] <eholmgren> those go up to 7A and the 142 is only 3A
[18:14:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> iirc standard optocouplers (at least the ones I have) go on in 100µS or so, and off at the same speed (somewhere around there)
[18:14:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> at least that's what I measured with my osciliscope
[18:17:20] <SWPadnos> LH: what are you looking at?
[18:17:28] <SWPadnos> for the 5ms time
[18:17:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:17:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the page you send
[18:17:52] <SWPadnos> the opto22 page?
[18:17:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the top left one
[18:17:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:18:14] <SWPadnos> that's an AC input module - kind of a weird beastie
[18:18:30] <skunkworks> I don't need speed for the big stuff (solinoids and such) just power.
[18:18:31] <SWPadnos> and has 15V DC logic levels
[18:18:43] <skunkworks> they have 5 volt logic ones
[18:18:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, I see
[18:19:16] <SWPadnos> the output modules are zero-crossing, so they take an average of 1/2 cycle to turn on/off
[18:19:28] <SWPadnos> err - up to 1/2 cycle
[18:19:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, 50µS for DC DC
[18:19:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's better
[18:19:54] <SWPadnos> yes - the ODC5 is the module of choice :)
[18:20:06] <SWPadnos> I've got a bunch of those - anybody need some?
[18:20:17] <SWPadnos> (unless I sold them at CNC workshop and forgot)
[18:20:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'd like some, but shipping is a PITA
[18:20:37] <SWPadnos> yes - though these came from Bulgaria via eBay ;)
[18:20:49] <SWPadnos> they don't quite fit in my USC :(
[18:20:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha, you should send them to alex;)
[18:20:52] <skunkworks> that is where we have been looking
[18:20:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> almost round trip
[18:20:59] <skunkworks> have some
[18:21:20] <SWPadnos> yeah - you can get populated relay racks for $cheap on eBay if you look around
[18:21:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cool
[18:22:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> btw, what is the usual mechanical life of a relay? (no current) 10^4 cycles? 10^5?
[18:22:37] <SWPadnos> I bet it varies widely
[18:22:43] <SWPadnos> by orders of magnitude
[18:22:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> mechanical life too?
[18:22:56] <SWPadnos> yes
[19:14:47] <jepler> if those AC optocouplers are triacs with zero-crossing, that would explain the 5ms figure -- that's a quarter cycle at 50Hz, the average time to a zero-crossing.
[19:29:26] <lerman> Re: the mechanical life of a relay... I'm using pneumatic valves that have a specified life of 2*10*9 operations. I would think that a relay should last that long, too. The right relay under the right conditions, of course.
[19:31:04] <SWPadnos> if you remove current capacity as a factor, then maybe. if it carries current then the contacts would likely erode long before that
[19:39:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah, I was just wondering with no/miniscule current
[19:39:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 10^9, that's quite a lot
[19:42:09] <SWPadnos> man - days like today make me wish I had a hot tub on the back porch
[19:42:39] <eholmgren> does that mean it's warm or cold out?
[19:42:45] <SWPadnos> warm
[19:42:50] <SWPadnos> 63 degrees - a new record high
[19:43:16] <eholmgren> my parent's had one on the back deck that was pretty neat to sit in during a snowstorm
[19:43:38] <SWPadnos> that can be fun too :)
[19:44:01] <eholmgren> polar bear rolls in the snow, jump back in, etc
[19:44:22] <SWPadnos> the health club we used to use has one in a glassed-in room (with timber framing) - it was always fun to sit in there when there was 3 feet of snow piled up against the glass ;)
[20:24:24] <jepler> what the hell is *this*, aside from a way to fleece self-named audiophiles who have too much money (or is saying that redundant?): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829102009
[20:25:02] <SWPadnos> not quite as good as this: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C
[20:25:02] <jepler> Pros: So far so good. There is a notable difference in the sound quality and it boosts the volume significantly. The sound is fuller will less distortion at higher volumes.
[20:25:04] <jepler> Cons: The documentation and instructions are lacking. I have no idea what this unit is doing and I can't tell what X-Fi crystallization is nor can I tell what X-Fi CMSS-3D is. I'm assuming the latter has to do with the surround sound but who really knows.
[20:25:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:25:27] <jepler> SWPadnos: by "good", do you mean "expensive"?
[20:25:45] <anonimasu> jepler: well, that _mp3_ thing is really useless..
[20:25:49] <jepler> http://images.creative.com/iss/images/inline/products/xmod/fe_an_experience.gif
[20:25:49] <anonimasu> :D
[20:25:54] <jepler> hahah what a great graph
[20:25:55] <SWPadnos> good = "a way to fleece self-named audiophiles who have too much money" ;)
[20:26:10] <anonimasu> mp3's kill frequencies, thats it :)
[20:26:27] <SWPadnos> hi, I'd like to buy an experience meter ...
[20:26:36] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:26:37] <anonimasu> heh
[20:26:44] <anonimasu> audiophiles are in general retarded..
[20:27:02] <SWPadnos> hey - watch what you say around here
[20:27:20] <SWPadnos> I'm an audiophile, but I don't spend $kbucks on wires or knobs ;)
[20:27:33] <cradek> that's a nice looking knob
[20:27:33] <jepler> then you're no "audiophile"
[20:27:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:27:46] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: oh, while good sound is nice, there's a limit to where it just stops being nice and goes to being stupid..
[20:28:01] <SWPadnos> absolutely
[20:28:02] <cradek> wood with a metal insert is nice
[20:28:21] <SWPadnos> I see an audiophile as "one who appreciates high quality sound reproduction"
[20:28:44] <cradek> however "The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation" seems a little farfetched
[20:28:48] <SWPadnos> I see a stupid person with too much money as an audiophile who thinks a wooden knob will significantl;y change the perceived quality of audio
[20:29:01] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: lots of audiophiles are like that..
[20:29:08] <SWPadnos> true enough
[20:29:10] <SWPadnos> computerphiles as well ;)
[20:29:27] <SWPadnos> $500 for the Killer NIC! w00t!
[20:29:34] <anonimasu> yep
[20:29:48] <cradek> How can this make a difference??? Well, hearing is believing as we always say. The sound becomes much more open and free flowing with a nice improvement in resolution. Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved.
[20:29:53] <cradek> haha
[20:29:59] <cradek> you need a naturalness meter too I guess
[20:30:04] <anonimasu> cradek: are you considering buying one?
[20:30:08] <SWPadnos> and autophiles - "4 inch pipes on my civic - damn cool!"
[20:30:10] <anonimasu> cradek: imagine the improvement
[20:30:18] <anonimasu> :D
[20:30:23] <cradek> anonimasu: two of course, for my car radio
[20:30:26] <SWPadnos> I think it only helps on their receivers
[20:30:30] <anonimasu> I wonder if I should mail them and ask them for a frequency graph.
[20:30:41] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure the motorized knob on my stereo would be helped ;)
[20:30:49] <anonimasu> :D
[20:30:56] <anonimasu> I'd make knobs in aerogel :D
[20:31:10] <SWPadnos> err - their amplifiers. of course no *true* audiophile would ever even consider using a receiver
[20:32:14] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:32:15] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:33:12] <SWPadnos> http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SLVR_RCK_SGNTR&Category_Code=VOLUME&Product_Count=1
[20:33:18] <SWPadnos> nice "potentiometer"
[20:34:16] <anonimasu> Transformer with 24 logarithmically set up secondary windings
[20:35:00] <anonimasu> _tranformer_
[20:35:40] <anonimasu> Bandwidth: enough to get much more music than with any other device, and still get ridd off plenty of RF! A -3dB point at 65 KHz will help you to get ridd of RF interference
[20:35:43] <anonimasu> gotta love that
[20:36:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nothing like snake oil
[20:36:13] <SWPadnos> I
[20:36:20] <SWPadnos> I'd rather buy a car
[20:36:35] <SWPadnos> than their amplifier, potentiometer, and matching knobs ;)
[20:37:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'd rather uy pretty much anything that retails for that price
[20:37:33] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:38:11] <cradek> Distorsion: almost unmeasurable at all frequencies
[20:38:23] <cradek> distorsion?
[20:38:30] <cradek> all frequencies?
[20:38:49] <SWPadnos> maybe they meant "all audio frequencies"
[20:38:57] <cradek> but what's distorsion?
[20:38:58] <skunkworks> my coworker is an 'audiophile' His speaker wires are like welding cables - they are spaced off the floor because of the 'induced magnetic field in the nails and metal in the wood floor'
[20:39:05] <skunkworks> I try not to make too much fun.
[20:39:07] <SWPadnos> misspelled distortion?
[20:40:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> rule 1: there are always idiots to buy things, if you get it right rich idiots
[20:48:06] <skunkworks> I think 'alex' isn't burning the iso correctly.
[20:49:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night all
[20:49:18] <skunkworks> night
[20:49:24] <SWPadnos> if the Ubuntu install started, then the ISO is correctly burned
[20:49:34] <SWPadnos> but may still have errors
[20:50:22] <skunkworks> I have used breezy, dapper and the livecd. I have had some issues but nothing that was major and normaly my hardware. (video card not letting ubuntu boot)
[20:50:56] <cradek> I've had cdrom errors on install, and the install halts and doesn't tell you much (but you can see them in the dmesg)
[20:51:33] <cradek> I told him to try burning a new disc, maybe slower, and to run the mediacheck, but he ignored that and said the install is "too hard"
[20:51:45] <SWPadnos> sure. but with the liveCD, he said it worked fine, but he couldn't install. That points to (a) an installer problem, (b) an error on the CD, or (c) a hardware issue
[20:51:48] <SWPadnos> not necessarily in that order
[20:52:02] <SWPadnos> yeah - coolCNC is easy but Ubuntu is hard???
[20:52:15] <cradek> an error on the CD is the most likely I think
[20:52:43] <cradek> in all seriousness I think ubuntu (when installed with the default choices) is the easiest OS install I've seen
[20:52:59] <SWPadnos> yep - though it can depend on hardware support
[20:52:59] <cradek> if you want to manually partition, not so much, but it's not much worse than anything else
[20:53:46] <rayh> Have any experience with ubuntu livecd and a dual core processor?
[20:54:04] <SWPadnos> how about dual dual-core? :)
[20:54:18] <cradek> rayh: it will only use one core
[20:54:24] <cradek> rayh: (but it will work fine)
[20:54:48] <SWPadnos> I think that's the next thing to look at (as far as the distribution is concerned)
[20:54:49] <skunkworks> I have it installed on a hyperthreading machine.
[20:54:56] <rayh> Okay. Thanks. RolandF wants me to install it at his place next week.
[20:55:03] <cradek> SWPadnos: you have my blessing
[20:55:07] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:55:09] <jepler> 64 bit kernels and SMP both
[20:55:16] <SWPadnos> aaaaahhh - I'm blind!
[20:55:37] <SWPadnos> yeah - 64/SMP is getting more and more common
[20:55:41] <jepler> step 1: get a smp realtime kernel to actually boot on a 64-bit machine
[20:55:47] <jepler> step 2: fix a few word-size issues
[20:55:47] <cradek> I could not get rtai smp to boot
[20:55:48] <jepler> step 3: profit
[20:55:59] <SWPadnos> hey - step 2 is supposed to be ???
[20:56:28] <jepler> how about: step 1. buy jeff a 64-bit smp machine
[20:56:30] <jepler> step 2. ???
[20:56:32] <jepler> step 3: profit
[20:56:44] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[20:56:49] <jepler> christmas is coming up, after all
[20:56:58] <SWPadnos> maybe you can get your work to buy one of those Tyan machines
[20:57:11] <SWPadnos> it's only 8 CPUs, but what the hey
[20:57:19] <cradek> when his work buys new hardware, I get to play with it, not him
[20:57:24] <SWPadnos> bastid
[20:57:27] <alex_joni> hi guys
[20:57:32] <SWPadnos> hi Alex
[20:57:36] <cradek> welcome back alex
[20:57:40] <alex_joni> thanks chris
[20:57:41] <jepler> alex_joni: what's this about you being unable to install umbuntu?
[20:57:42] <jepler> :-P
[20:57:43] <alex_joni> hi stephen
[20:57:49] <alex_joni> jepler: :-P
[20:57:58] <alex_joni> umbuntu is jut too complecatid
[20:58:01] <cradek> ummmbento
[20:58:30] <jepler> I want to install obento. http://images.google.com/images?q=obento
[20:59:00] <alex_joni> hmm.. I did try to install edgy the other night and failed..
[20:59:04] <alex_joni> does that count?
[20:59:33] <alex_joni> but I had a factory dvd, so burning is not an issue :D
[20:59:43] <SWPadnos> I tried to install zimbabwe, but I don't understand Lithuanian
[20:59:48] <jepler> there are pressed dvds of edgy?
[20:59:56] <SWPadnos> can u hlp?
[21:00:00] <alex_joni> jepler: this was one distributed with c't
[21:00:06] <alex_joni> a german HW magazine
[21:00:14] <jepler> oh I see
[21:00:17] <alex_joni> double sided custom dvd
[21:00:23] <alex_joni> one side edgy, one side stuff
[21:00:55] <alex_joni> but my problem was that my linux partition on this laptop is 1.6Gb, not enough for edgy :/
[21:01:22] <jepler> huh -- I thought dapper was a lot smaller than that -- is edgy bigger?
[21:01:45] <alex_joni> it needs at least 2G for install size + swap partition
[21:03:02] <alex_joni> I think a server or alternate install + hand picked software will make it work
[21:03:15] <eholmgren> there should be a slackware based emc live cd
[21:03:22] <eholmgren> with no foof
[21:03:38] <alex_joni> why not LFS?
[21:03:52] <eholmgren> or that
[21:04:34] <eholmgren> lfs would be nice as well
[21:04:49] <eholmgren> ubuntu runs my dumpster box into the ground
[21:04:59] <alex_joni> get xubuntu :)
[21:05:16] <SWPadnos> perhaps the next liveCD should be based on xubuntu?
[21:05:27] <SWPadnos> unless we need some gnome or KDE specific features
[21:05:30] <SWPadnos> (which I doubt)
[21:05:48] <rayh> what you mean we paleface?
[21:06:04] <alex_joni> hi ray
[21:06:06] <SWPadnos> ok - maybe you should make an xubuntu liveCD ;)
[21:06:25] <rayh> I need all the help I can get!
[21:06:31] <eholmgren> maybe it's actually just KDE slowing everything down
[21:06:35] <eholmgren> I should try xfce
[21:06:45] <SWPadnos> KDE and Gnome are pretty well known to be resource hogs
[21:07:53] <eholmgren> I've been using slackware since 3.5
[21:08:04] <eholmgren> so I like being handled roughly and tossed blindly into the dark
[21:08:16] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:08:36] <eholmgren> all this package management and pretty stuff doesn't seem as much like UNIX to me
[21:09:14] <SWPadnos> I think package management is one of the more important features of Ubuntu
[21:09:19] <skunkworks> I don't complain :)
[21:09:22] <SWPadnos> (and any modern distribution)
[21:12:06] <eholmgren> I suppose that's true
[21:12:31] <eholmgren> and much more efficient that compiling everything from source
[21:13:07] <SWPadnos> yep. though Gentoo is pretty cool as a concept (and may be viable on high end machines now), it's not really an ideal use of power or time
[21:15:53] <eholmgren> I saw that someone mentioned it earlier ...
[21:16:02] <SWPadnos> that was probably me
[21:16:10] <eholmgren> but wtf is this $250 network card I see on newegg?
[21:16:16] <SWPadnos> the Killer NIC!!!
[21:16:34] <SWPadnos> decrease you ping times!!!
[21:16:39] <SWPadnos> frag better!!!
[21:16:43] <eholmgren> kill your pocketbook!!!
[21:16:48] <SWPadnos> (had enough? ;) )
[21:16:59] <alex_joni> MMTB
[21:17:04] <eholmgren> ZOMG ROFL WAFFLES
[21:17:03] <SWPadnos> assert your manhood, for less than a Hummer E3 !!!
[21:17:11] <SWPadnos> err - H3!!!!
[21:17:38] <SWPadnos> less than a tank of gas for a Hummer H3!!!!
[21:17:46] <eholmgren> so it's like a TCP offload engine built into a nic?
[21:17:57] <SWPadnos> other than being dumb, yes, that's it :)
[21:18:10] <SWPadnos> actually, there's a processor running a version of Linux
[21:22:16] <eholmgren> "Bigfoot Networks is pleased to announce LagMeter, a powerful new software application that finally gives you the ability to not only measure the Lag you are living with in your games, but also to understand where your Lag is coming from"
[21:22:30] <cradek> I think the desktop environment is important to most of our users and leaving it out to save a few people $50 worth of ram would be a bad idea
[21:22:36] <eholmgren> maybe me lag is coming from behind the couch!
[21:23:19] <SWPadnos> I suspect that one of the other environments like WindowMaker, XFCE, Fluxbox, or even GnuStep would be just fine for users
[21:23:57] <eholmgren> I've used XFCE a few times on slower machines and it seemed to run alot better
[21:24:18] <eholmgren> even more "simple" looking etc than KDE/Gnome
[21:24:33] <eholmgren> unless a particular user has a mouse phobia
[21:24:39] <eholmgren> *eek*
[21:24:49] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:24:52] <rayh> I had xfce on redhat 5.0
[21:25:34] <SWPadnos> I wish we had NextStep for UI programming
[21:25:52] <SWPadnos> maybe GnuStep has gotten close enough to be usable
[21:26:40] <jepler> I seldom stick with gnome on my ubuntu machines, but I believe it's what we should install by default from our live CD. One reason is because the Gnome desktop is the one that gets the most attention from Ubuntu, so it's likely to be the most polished and more documentation will refer to the gnome tools for a particular activity. (not to say that kubuntu and xubuntu aren't nice too)
[21:27:14] <jepler> people who have a desktop environment *preference* are the kind of power users who will be able to install it themselves, without our help
[21:27:22] <SWPadnos> yeah - the support issue is the one that really matters, I guess
[21:27:45] <SWPadnos> though the idea that the install should be "snappy" is also relatively important
[21:27:59] <SWPadnos> who was it that couldn't open an editor while EMC was running
[21:28:01] <SWPadnos> ?
[21:28:14] <cradek> someone with a misconfigured machine probably
[21:28:18] <jepler> (that's not to say I'd be displeased to see someone contribute an xubuntu+emc2 live cd!)
[21:28:27] <SWPadnos> I don't know if an alternate desktop (or fewer "services") would have helped there
[21:28:43] <cradek> probably not
[21:28:57] <cradek> a wrong base period can make it really slow. that won't be solved by switching window managers.
[21:29:44] <SWPadnos> well, I thought he said that the UI was OK with EMC running, but it took minutes to launch an editor (if it would ever open at all)
[21:29:53] <SWPadnos> that sounds more like swap/disk thrashing to me
[21:30:02] <alex_joni> sounds like bogus to me
[21:30:07] <SWPadnos> (of course, I could be misremembering the situation)
[21:30:37] <cradek> either way I think targeting the LCD of hardware at the cost of (important!) features is a bad idea
[21:30:47] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:30:56] <cradek> a new user should be able to configure his preferences, network, etc - in the gui
[21:31:06] <cradek> if we're using ubuntu, that probably means gnome
[21:31:40] <cradek> a suitably advanced user with a low powered machine can certainly leave that stuff out
[21:32:08] <SWPadnos> I think a lot of the utilities are relatively environment-agnostic (or there are non-gnome/KDE versions available)
[21:32:25] <cradek> I guess I don't know about that
[21:32:30] <SWPadnos> it's surprising that things like the update manager are environment-specific though
[21:32:48] <cradek> sometimes I think you end up running most of gnome anyway when you start one of those programs
[21:32:58] <SWPadnos> well, it's certainly possible that I'm wrong :)
[21:33:06] <SWPadnos> that's true
[21:34:44] <SWPadnos> hmmm - time to tale a walk with my wife, before we lose light
[21:34:57] <SWPadnos> and before the temperature goes back down to "seasonal" :)
[21:35:06] <SWPadnos> bbl
[21:35:08] <cradek> bye
[21:49:37] <skunkworks> hmm - during an estop - both of my lower mosfets turn on causing a short across the windings.. which was decided was ok. So I should not get any backdriving of the transformer (as with cradeks lathe - if the servo isn't slowing down fast enough the pid loop will reverse the current to the servo.)
[21:51:36] <alex_joni> skunkworks: the common thing to do is to short it and put the extra voltage/power into a power resistor
[21:51:56] <skunkworks> right - by my h-bridge doesn't do that
[21:52:07] <skunkworks> the way it is designed
[21:52:34] <skunkworks> jmk thought it would not be an issue
[21:53:24] <alex_joni> that way you don't stress the fets too much
[21:53:35] <alex_joni> if they can handle what the motor brings back, it's ok
[21:53:42] <skunkworks> that is the question :)
[21:53:55] <alex_joni> although I remember a kinda simplist way of doing that
[21:54:06] <alex_joni> mariss had a schematic what to add to a PSU to enable that
[21:54:11] <eholmgren> I know that an xterm lags horribly on my PII when emc2 is running
[21:56:31] <skunkworks> alex_joni: I would have to use a ir2whatever that would allow me to control both high and low mosfets. (not that it is a big deal)
[21:56:47] <skunkworks> the ir2111 only has one input.
[21:58:27] <alex_joni> I think you might be fine though
[21:58:46] <cradek> eholmgren: make sure your BASE_PERIOD is no shorter than necessary
[21:59:09] <skunkworks> Time will tell :)
[21:59:47] <eholmgren> it's set at whatever the default is
[22:00:05] <cradek> same advice :-)
[22:00:39] <eholmgren> I need to find a better PIII or something in the pile of crap down in my basement
[22:00:46] <eholmgren> but I'm too lazy at the moment
[22:01:03] <eholmgren> and I don't have all three axis hooked up yet anyways
[22:01:08] <cradek> yes, a fastish PIII is a great emc2 machine
[22:02:04] <eholmgren> think I have a 667, 866, 933, and maybe even a 1ghz tucked away somewhere
[22:02:56] <skunkworks> I have a pentum III 600 running a (I think) 20us period pretty well
[22:03:03] <cradek> if you can scrape up 512MB of PC133 you're set then
[22:03:16] <eholmgren> we just moved into a new place though, and there's literally a mountain of boxes full of computer crap in the basement
[22:03:33] <cradek> heck I have that without a move
[22:03:45] <cradek> you have boxes??
[22:03:46] <cradek> haha
[22:03:57] <eholmgren> I did before ... just can't find anything now ;)
[22:04:06] <eholmgren> oh, there's straight up piles too
[22:04:24] <eholmgren> I can't see the surface of my 4'x8' workbench at the moment either
[22:04:59] <skunkworks> I can never see the surface of any of my work spaces :)
[22:05:34] <eholmgren> good to know I'm consorting with like minded individuals
[22:07:54] <eholmgren> now I just need to find a channel with other people who have hydroponic orchid gardens in their basements as well
[22:08:12] <skunkworks> yah - orkhids - riiight
[22:08:21] <skunkworks> orchids
[22:11:56] <eholmgren> * eholmgren is told that he lives in a police state
[22:12:42] <eholmgren> trust me, they're acutally orchids
[22:13:05] <eholmgren> I'd rather grow things that won't land me in jail for 20 years
[22:13:08] <eholmgren> tis not worth it
[22:22:12] <skunkworks> :)
[22:22:52] <skunkworks> sounds like something a canadian would say ;)
[22:31:19] <eholmgren> I live in the midwest though
[22:31:31] <eholmgren> not out in hippy-crap california
[22:31:47] <eholmgren> ;)
[22:32:04] <skunkworks> I am not that far from you.
[22:33:44] <alex_joni> well guys, I'm off to bed
[22:33:50] <alex_joni> still catching up :)
[22:34:20] <skunkworks> night
[22:34:22] <skunkworks> bbl