#emc | Logs for 2006-11-26

[00:04:57] <ChrisSmo> ok, got it, thanks
[00:13:04] <robin_sz> tee hee .. now, this is funny
[00:13:28] <robin_sz> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7087616443084426841
[00:14:43] <anonimasu> woah!
[00:14:44] <anonimasu> nice
[00:20:29] <robin_sz> I bet he didnt expect THAT!
[01:04:22] <Rugludallur> night guys
[01:06:24] <jepler> this fpga stuff ain't so hard
[01:06:50] <SWPadnos> nope - and it's really cool!
[01:06:52] <jepler> jmkasunich: sometime in the future I'll have to have you walk me through the "freqgen" logic so I can write a verilog version
[01:07:55] <jepler> SWPadnos: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi/01164408418
[01:14:02] <SWPadnos> is that really 45 ns to read/write all registers?
[01:14:40] <anonimasu> :)
[01:15:52] <jmkasunich> jepler: ok, be happy to
[01:16:24] <SWPadnos> hmmm - guess I'll be back after doing some stuff with the wife
[01:16:30] <SWPadnos> see you tomorrow probably :)
[01:17:33] <jmkasunich> jepler: wow, you did all that already?
[01:27:25] <jepler> jmkasunich: yeah -- yesterday and today
[01:27:48] <jmkasunich> you been busy
[01:34:03] <jepler> I was a bit single-minded while working on it
[01:35:00] <jmkasunich> can I suggest adding "encoder" to the encoder related hal pins (currently called -1.whatever)
[01:35:49] <jmkasunich> its not really 45nS to update the registers is it?
[01:38:22] <jepler> oops, uS
[01:38:34] <jepler> what pin should I add?
[01:39:04] <jepler> (fixed)
[01:47:00] <ChrisSmo> hmm. i can make the x and y axis move, but not z
[01:52:02] <Ziegler> woah
[01:52:05] <ChrisSmo> weird. sometimes it runs and then sometimes it doesn't, or it starts and stops
[01:52:14] <Ziegler> Hello?
[01:52:59] <ChrisSmo> hi
[01:54:08] <Ziegler> Im looking for some info on getting HAL to genereate the pulses for a 2-phase stepper. Am I at the right place?
[01:54:15] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:54:53] <jmkasunich> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/HAL_Documentation.pdf
[01:55:00] <Ziegler> Ive read through it a bit
[01:55:17] <jmkasunich> page 70
[01:55:23] <Ziegler> great thank you
[01:55:26] <Ziegler> one second
[01:55:30] <jmkasunich> thru 73
[01:55:48] <jmkasunich> has pictures of each of the 14 stepping types that are available
[01:55:54] <jmkasunich> hopefully one of them is what you want
[01:56:26] <Ziegler> Yes I think it is
[01:58:35] <Ziegler> When are the busy times for this chan?
[02:00:12] <jmkasunich> where are you?
[02:00:36] <ChrisSmo> anyone else here have a xylotex driver board?
[02:00:51] <cradek> weekend evening (US) is pretty busy
[02:01:28] <cradek> ChrisSmo: pretty sure Jymmm uses one
[02:01:36] <Ziegler> Im in the US... Illinois to be exact
[02:01:52] <jmkasunich> we have people from Europe, so we start getting activity mid-day US time, and it runs into late evening
[02:02:05] <Ziegler> I see.
[02:02:09] <jmkasunich> IL - you should come to the CNC workshop!
[02:02:15] <Ziegler> Where is it at?
[02:02:25] <jmkasunich> Galesburg IL
[02:02:29] <Ziegler> No kidding?!
[02:02:34] <jmkasunich> nope
[02:02:40] <Ziegler> Im in Rock Island
[02:02:46] <jmkasunich> 8-9 hour drive for me :-(
[02:02:47] <Ziegler> Galesburg is very close
[02:02:55] <Ziegler> bout 45 minutes
[02:03:02] <Ziegler> How often is it?
[02:03:06] <jmkasunich> once a year
[02:03:08] <jepler> cnc workshop will be next spring or early summer .. you'll be able to meet some of us there if you go
[02:03:16] <ChrisSmo> my z axis seemsto be possessed
[02:03:17] <cradek> I think it's very early june this year
[02:03:39] <jmkasunich> http://www.cnc-workshop.com/
[02:03:49] <Ziegler> Well, I am a bit of an EMC newb... so I hope to lerk around and learn a bit from you guys.
[02:03:54] <jepler> ChrisSmo: swap some wires around and find out if it's the motor or something else.
[02:04:49] <ChrisSmo> yep, already swapped the motors, not them
[02:05:48] <ChrisSmo> need tocheck the parallel port outputs with a scope next i guess
[02:06:22] <anonimasu> did you move your wires on the port or did you move a motor?
[02:06:45] <ChrisSmo> i moved the wired to the motor
[02:06:59] <ChrisSmo> moving the wires to the port would be more difficult as i am using a ribbon cable
[02:07:20] <anonimasu> well, so you have no way to determinate if the drive works as supposed?
[02:07:48] <ChrisSmo> at this point it could be channel z on the drive or it could be the pc/emc
[02:08:07] <ChrisSmo> sometimes the z motor will jerk on it's own, when not being told to move
[02:08:59] <anonimasu> ChrisSmo: well, you need to verify that the drive works first..
[02:10:58] <ChrisSmo> i guess i can connect a function gen to the driver inputs
[02:15:50] <ChrisSmo> seems fine
[02:16:05] <ChrisSmo> software or the peecee then
[02:17:07] <ChrisSmo> i'll double check the printer port cable just in case, but i doubt it
[02:19:14] <ChrisSmo> hahaha
[02:19:45] <jepler> find a problem?
[02:19:54] <ChrisSmo> cable
[02:20:04] <ChrisSmo> corroded pin
[02:20:08] <jepler> that's good news
[02:20:13] <ChrisSmo> badcontact
[02:20:18] <ChrisSmo> doh!
[02:20:21] <jepler> cables are not expensive to replace
[02:20:40] <ChrisSmo> easy to clean also
[02:24:20] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/scope_trig.c: fix a bug that affects non-zero trigger levels on float signals
[02:28:32] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (breezy) non-realtime (2.6.12-10-386) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[02:28:48] <jmkasunich> no, its not _that_ fast... that was a test message
[02:29:03] <jmkasunich> ldconfig did the trick, thanks cradek
[02:30:06] <cradek> welcome
[02:54:25] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10infrastructure/farm-scripts/ (emc2_build_sim README index.shtml): updated index.shtml, added a build script for non-realtime sim, updated README
[03:45:37] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubunu 5.10 (breezy) realtime (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[03:45:59] <cradek> is that a real one?
[03:46:03] <jmkasunich> yep
[03:46:07] <cradek> slick
[03:46:40] <jmkasunich> its working on the 2.0 branch now
[03:47:13] <jmkasunich> took 9 minutes
[03:47:37] <jmkasunich> I dunno if thats because the RT guest is slow running in a VM or if the other VM started doing a build at the same time
[03:47:51] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/VERSION: we now have a 2.1 branch; this is pre-2.2
[03:48:21] <cradek> doubt rt would make any difference since it's not loaded
[03:48:54] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/VERSION: before 2.1.0, let's call it this
[03:49:35] <cradek> it's done
[03:49:40] <jmkasunich> I see
[03:49:41] <jmkasunich> thanks
[03:49:46] <cradek> welcome
[03:49:46] <jmkasunich> I'll add that to the two slots
[03:50:39] <cradek> I'll email -devel
[03:50:53] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubunu 5.10 (breezy) realtime (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2.0branch/: build PASSED
[03:53:57] <cradek> jmkasunich: I tested FF2 - it seems to work great
[03:54:20] <cradek> I had to use tiny tiny numbers, is that right?
[03:54:47] <jmkasunich> hard to say, it depends on how things are scaled
[03:55:02] <SWPadnos> isn't that usually used for torque-mode servos?
[03:55:17] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: yeah
[03:55:31] <jmkasunich> but these are "straight to PWM" mode servos
[03:55:33] <cradek> all I know is it flattened out my FE during accel/decel
[03:55:42] <SWPadnos> oh, well in that case, cool! ;)
[03:55:54] <jmkasunich> no velocity loop in the amps, and no torque/current loop either
[03:56:06] <SWPadnos> straight-to-PWM would be torque mode, less back EMF
[03:56:16] <cradek> I have < .003mm FE at full vel/accel
[03:56:17] <jmkasunich> repends
[03:56:18] <SWPadnos> so non-linear torque mode :)
[03:56:19] <jmkasunich> depends
[03:56:29] <jmkasunich> it could be velocity mode, less IR drop ;-)
[03:56:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:56:47] <cradek> I have no idea what these modes are
[03:56:52] <SWPadnos> .003 mm sounds reasonably good
[03:56:52] <jmkasunich> for big motors with low R (industrial scale) EMF dominates
[03:57:03] <jmkasunich> for hobby size motors, IR drop is probably significant
[03:57:29] <SWPadnos> sure, but that's still torque, since it's directly proportional to I
[03:57:30] <cradek> SWPadnos: the scale is 1/375mm so it can't get much better
[03:57:53] <SWPadnos> ah - the resolution can't tell you anything less, either :)
[03:57:59] <cradek> also true
[03:58:09] <cradek> so it must be perfect :-)
[03:58:14] <SWPadnos> so it's staying within 2 counts then (not quite hitting the second count)
[03:58:29] <SWPadnos> or is it never showing more than 0?
[03:58:51] <cradek> no, it shows ~ +- .003
[03:58:52] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: with a big motor and very little R, if you put 100V on the armature, and the CEMF is not _very_ close to 100V, you are gonna get a shitload of amps, and either something will break, or it will accel until the CEMC approximately matched the applied voltage
[03:59:10] <SWPadnos> ok, so it's +/- (2-delta) counts off ;)
[03:59:17] <cradek> guess so
[03:59:36] <SWPadnos> CEMC?
[03:59:42] <jmkasunich> CEMF, sorry
[03:59:54] <jmkasunich> back emf, counter emf, same thing
[03:59:54] <SWPadnos> ok - I was just about to make something up for that :)
[04:00:12] <SWPadnos> (Counter-Electro-Mechanical-Current)
[04:01:12] <cradek> has ziegler-nichols really worked for anyone?
[04:01:21] <SWPadnos> Siegler and Nichols, I imagine ;)
[04:01:24] <SWPadnos> Ziegler, also
[04:01:32] <cradek> hmm
[04:01:33] <Ziegler> Hello
[04:01:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:01:55] <Ziegler> Worked for anyone?
[04:01:59] <SWPadnos> sorry - must have the wrong Ziegler :)
[04:02:03] <cradek> haha
[04:02:13] <cradek> color me confused
[04:02:29] <Ziegler> no problem
[04:02:32] <SWPadnos> Ziegler, it's a mathematical method of tuning PID loops
[04:02:37] <Ziegler> ahh
[04:02:55] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_tuning
[04:03:01] <SWPadnos> http://www.chem.mtu.edu/~tbco/cm416/zn.html
[04:04:20] <SWPadnos> interesting - the Tyreus-Luyben chart may be better for machine applications
[04:05:14] <SWPadnos> "These values tend to reduce oscillatory effects and improves robustness."
[04:05:57] <cradek> the Z-N formulae are different between those two URLs
[04:06:15] <SWPadnos> indeed
[04:06:29] <cradek> (not just in the constants)
[04:06:32] <SWPadnos> I wonder who's right - the .edu page or the wikipedia page ;)
[04:06:45] <cradek> they're probably both right for a particular pid system
[04:07:02] <cradek> I don't know enough about this to even guess
[04:07:26] <SWPadnos> heh - I should have learned something while watching them tune the megawatt power supplies
[04:07:35] <SWPadnos> (or in some control theory class way back when)
[04:08:05] <tomp> error inserting '/home/tomp/emc2-head/rtlib/threads.ko' unknown symbol in module ( after bin/halcmd loadrt threads name1=test-thread period=1000000)... what did i do wrong?
[04:08:21] <cradek> I think the problem with Z-N on my lathe is that the oscillation doesn't move the table - it's all within the backlash
[04:08:28] <cradek> so the period is way off
[04:08:40] <SWPadnos> ah - you should be looking at the output with a scope
[04:08:48] <cradek> tomp: check dmesg
[04:08:53] <cradek> SWPadnos: ?
[04:08:54] <tomp> thanks
[04:09:01] <SWPadnos> possibly halscope will work (since the output period is intrinsic in HAL)
[04:09:03] <cradek> I can measure the period exactly with halscope
[04:09:23] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:09:29] <cradek> but I meant most of the mass isn't oscillating, which seems like it will grossly screw up the period
[04:09:38] <SWPadnos> yep, and the loop
[04:10:13] <tomp> start with much slower oscillation but stil max amplitude of amp, stay outta backlash area
[04:13:19] <tomp> cradek: i get 'unknown parameter 'period' ' (cvs head checked out on 10-23 (ish) )
[04:13:32] <SWPadnos> period1, period2, period2 ...
[04:13:38] <SWPadnos> err - period3
[04:14:02] <jmkasunich> right - periods and names go to gether
[04:14:07] <jmkasunich> name1 and period1, etc
[04:14:37] <SWPadnos> so that should have been 'bin/halcmd loadrt threads name1=test-thread period1=1000000'
[04:16:13] <tomp> oh, sorry, my bad.
[04:16:45] <tomp> yep... works fine
[04:18:31] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubunu 5.10 (breezy) realtime (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2.1branch/: build PASSED
[04:19:46] <cradek> on wikipedia the I term comes from dividing by period (which made I huge for me); on mtu.edu it doesn't
[04:19:53] <cradek> there must be something I don't get
[04:20:08] <jmkasunich> they are probably making assumptions about the implementation
[04:20:30] <cradek> how can we tell which is right for hal's pid?
[04:20:40] <jmkasunich> wait - is period the sampling period of the loop, or the period of some oscillation?
[04:20:55] <cradek> period of the sustained oscillation
[04:20:56] <SWPadnos> the oscillation period at "critical gain"
[04:20:58] <jmkasunich> oh
[04:21:03] <jmkasunich> then never mind what I said
[04:21:17] <SWPadnos> the method is dependent on the type of system, not really on the PID implementation in HAL
[04:21:57] <SWPadnos> damned if I know which is more appropriate for machines though :)
[04:22:57] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10infrastructure/farm-scripts/ (README index.shtml): added version 2.1 to the farm
[04:25:20] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (breezy) non-realtime (2.6.12-10-386) * 10emc2.1branch/: build PASSED
[04:25:52] <jmkasunich> done - all new and shiny: http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/
[04:26:22] <SWPadnos> oooooh -spiffy
[04:26:48] <cradek> lookie at all them green marks
[04:27:32] <jmkasunich> you know, I could add version 2.1 to the BDI-4.20 slot very easily
[04:27:48] <jmkasunich> sort of a bridge until I have a VM running BDI-4.50
[04:28:41] <cradek> typo: Ubunu 5.10 (breezy) realtime
[04:28:50] <jmkasunich> oops
[04:30:12] <jmkasunich> fixed (on the slot)
[04:30:20] <jmkasunich> the page will update after it builds again
[04:30:49] <jmkasunich> those server side includes make managing this thing a lot easier
[04:31:08] <SWPadnos> good deal
[04:31:08] <tomp> maybe of interest to the tuning discussion http://www.danahermotion.com/education/learn_about_mc/servohandbook/resources/1999_03_bode_plots.pdf ( we used bode plots and oscillation excitation)
[04:31:27] <SWPadnos> oooohhh - frequency domain analysis
[04:31:32] <SWPadnos> much more scientific :)
[04:31:40] <tomp> standard
[04:33:06] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: would we be allowed to run a VM on dreamhost?
[04:33:08] <SWPadnos> there was an interesting article some years back about using frequency analysis to detect worn bearings and such
[04:33:18] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, nope, I don't think so
[04:33:19] <jmkasunich> (or is linuxcnc.org already a VM)
[04:33:39] <SWPadnos> not quite a VM
[04:33:43] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking about cvs2, our backup CVS server
[04:33:50] <SWPadnos> just a virtual host, using some apache trickery
[04:34:10] <jmkasunich> its running in the same rack as the old compile farm slots, but when I finally get all the new VM slots running, I'd like to power down that rack
[04:34:22] <SWPadnos> yeah - I was thinking that DH would be a good place for that, but I think we decided that there are problems with the idea (like no anonymous access, for one)
[04:34:29] <jmkasunich> right
[04:34:39] <jmkasunich> a VM would let us duplicate the setup we have now
[04:34:41] <cradek> we only need to do two things: put the machine's backups on dreamhost and mirror the cvs changes regularly
[04:34:58] <cradek> well it depends what our goals are I guess
[04:35:25] <cradek> that lets you guys recover from a disaster that takes out me and my cvs server both
[04:35:32] <jmkasunich> one goal of cvs2 was that if a meteor hit lincoln we could recover
[04:35:37] <cradek> right
[04:35:51] <SWPadnos> actually, a small VM disk with the base OS would be a good thing to create - that way any one of us with VMWare could put up a new CVS server any time
[04:36:03] <SWPadnos> the base OC/cvs server install, of course
[04:36:05] <jmkasunich> at present, cvs2 is not meeting that goal, because I doubt anybody else knows how to make it become the primary
[04:36:08] <SWPadnos> garrrhhh - OS, not OC
[04:36:58] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: agreed
[04:37:23] <cradek> in the unlikely event of a meteor hit, anyone with a copy of the cvs tree could figure something out, even if it's to send it to sourceforge
[04:37:45] <SWPadnos> there's a sourceforge VM available from VMWare ;)
[04:38:02] <jmkasunich> yeah - complete loss of data is pretty low risk, since we have distributed developers and everyone has a checkout
[04:38:12] <SWPadnos> that would still lose history
[04:38:30] <cradek> I mean the cvs tree itself, not a checkout
[04:38:30] <jmkasunich> and the nice cvsweb setup
[04:38:36] <Ziegler> night all... see you again!
[04:38:41] <SWPadnos> see you later
[04:38:51] <Ziegler> (hehe I will be back with more hal questions)
[04:38:57] <jmkasunich> and who all has a complete cvs tree?
[04:39:02] <cradek> yes cvsweb/lxr/accounts/ssh keys/email setup is all time consuming
[04:39:04] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks around
[04:39:06] <cradek> probably you and me
[04:39:18] <jmkasunich> s/you/cvs2/
[04:39:41] <jmkasunich> which will be going offline soon
[04:40:21] <jmkasunich> its a shame we didn't think of VMs before - all that setup could be done once, then saved on the VM and moved where needed
[04:40:39] <cradek> fwiw jepler and I talked about that
[04:40:59] <cradek> (not sure there was gratis vmware yet)
[04:41:04] <SWPadnos> not so easy on a laptop, when VMWare allocates all memory for a VM at "power-on"
[04:41:06] <cradek> and qemu is way too slow
[04:41:27] <jmkasunich> I'm not second guessing what we did - it was the right decision at the time
[04:41:32] <cradek> there's nothing stopping us (me?) from restoring a backup of cvs.l.o into a vmware
[04:41:59] <tomp> 'scuse me, i searched wiki for 'weave' looking for how siggen was cnxd to a joint position ( some welding application),, cant find, any clues where to look?
[04:42:04] <SWPadnos> how big do you suppose it would be?
[04:42:09] <jmkasunich> that works even if the vmware "hardware" is different than the existing hw?
[04:42:19] <cradek> jmkasunich: more or less I bet
[04:42:44] <cradek> tomp: I thought it was there too
[04:43:01] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it was there
[04:43:15] <tomp> another buzzword?
[04:44:57] <jmkasunich> cradek: how do you back up cvs1 now?
[04:45:11] <cradek> amanda over ssh to a local tape drive
[04:46:08] <jmkasunich> is cvs2 keeping current?
[04:46:37] <cradek> I think it does not have lxr, but it does get the cvs tree, ssh keys, and accounts nightly
[04:46:40] <jmkasunich> I have a 10Mbs ethernet link between CVS2 and my current box, could easily grab a copy, then create a VM
[04:47:06] <cradek> no, I should do it, it would even be a bit of a challenge for me
[04:47:13] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:47:36] <jmkasunich> its probably a medium probability
[04:47:43] <cradek> ?
[04:48:09] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna try to have the new farm finished in a few more days, but if I need to keep the rack running until after the first of the year thats OK
[04:49:05] <jmkasunich> I wonder if there's a market for used Cubix racks/cards/parts ;-)
[04:50:10] <SWPadnos> it may have appreciated in value, but I wouldn't bank on that ;)
[04:51:15] <jmkasunich> nope
[04:51:39] <jmkasunich> searching ebay completed auctions - 17 items, only 2 sold
[04:52:04] <jmkasunich> both much newer generation stuff
[04:53:08] <SWPadnos> well, you'll profit by not having as much noise or power usage
[04:53:34] <jmkasunich> yep
[04:53:43] <jmkasunich> and 50 lbs of steel for the scrap metal dealer
[04:54:04] <SWPadnos> and several 2G hard drives
[04:54:08] <SWPadnos> oh - nevermind ;)
[04:54:24] <jmkasunich> well, maybe 25 lbs steel, 10 lbs of aluminum (HD cases), and 15 lbs of misc (PC boards and wires and ....)
[04:54:45] <SWPadnos> copper would be agreat thing to be able to extract, actually
[04:54:59] <jmkasunich> not economical
[04:55:13] <jmkasunich> wire harnesses do have some value
[04:55:23] <SWPadnos> err - it would be grat to be able to economically extract the copper :)
[04:55:25] <SWPadnos> grat
[04:55:26] <jmkasunich> PC boards have negative value because of the lead solder
[04:55:28] <SWPadnos> great
[04:55:32] <SWPadnos> true enough
[04:55:48] <jmkasunich> when I strip stuff down I save the boards
[04:56:00] <jmkasunich> take em into work and throw them in the "pcb recycle" bin
[04:56:11] <jmkasunich> considering that most of my stuff came from that bin in the first place...
[04:56:16] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:56:20] <SWPadnos> ashes to ashes
[04:56:28] <SWPadnos> and trash to trash
[04:56:39] <jmkasunich> at least when I throw it in its just the board - work throws in the entire system
[04:56:50] <jmkasunich> I dunno if anybody ever separates out the ingredients or not
[04:57:16] <jmkasunich> we (our department) used to strip down scrap drives, save the aluminum
[04:57:21] <SWPadnos> it probably goes to a technical reclamation center, and gets at least somewhat sorted
[04:57:27] <jmkasunich> we'd recycle 1000 lbs or more every year or two
[04:57:58] <jmkasunich> when we moved into the new facility they said we couldn't do that anymore - pitch it all in the bin and ship it out
[04:58:01] <granville> hi guys, i've got a cnc machine i built a few years ago using the plans from machinetoolcamp.com, and never really got it going right. Their plans used a deskwinnc board and software to drive 3 stepper drivers (dir/step). I've got emc2 installed, wired up to the encoders and working for the most part. I'm trying to get things moving faster (a), and I'm occasionally missing steps on the x axis.
[04:58:39] <jmkasunich> "wired up to the encoders" ? did you mean wired up to the steppers, or do you really have encoders?
[04:59:26] <granville> they are wired to the stepper drivers, looks like gecko stepper drivers but have machine tool camp stickers on them.
[05:00:51] <granville> I adjusted the scale numbers and have things moving the right distances on the right axis, and I made a cut a few angels out for my wife on it today, so i've got things close to right.
[05:01:15] <jmkasunich> is it running as fast as it ran with the original control?
[05:02:16] <granville> Each cutting pass was about 1/8" off on the x-axis.
[05:02:53] <tomp> better slower?
[05:03:27] <granville> somewhat, but it doesn't seem like things are moving very fast anyway.
[05:04:20] <jmkasunich> how fast is it going? (inches per minute, or mm/minute if you prefer)
[05:05:34] <granville> I'm using the base stepper_inch config and adjusted mainly the scale values. This is running on a P3-933. The screen says 40, but I'd say maybe a thenth of that, i guess i need to try to measure that.
[05:06:12] <tomp> maybe the speed error is more important than the missed steps...
[05:06:33] <SWPadnos> I assume that you have the DeskCNC board revision 1, since you bought it a few years ago?
[05:06:58] <granville> i think so, i wasn't able to get it to go with their current software.
[05:07:20] <jmkasunich> how can the speed be off by a factor of 10?
[05:07:37] <SWPadnos> 10x microstepping?
[05:07:40] <granville> one nice thing though, that old board had a db-25 connected to a db-25 breakout that i was able to quickly rewire for the parallel port.
[05:07:42] <SWPadnos> the drives are Geckos
[05:07:54] <jmkasunich> yeah, but he said he had the scaling working correctly
[05:08:06] <SWPadnos> indeed
[05:08:28] <granville> does emc need to be adjusted for the processor speed?
[05:08:32] <SWPadnos> and following errors would happen in input_scale != output_scale
[05:08:36] <jmkasunich> not typically
[05:08:37] <SWPadnos> s/in/if/
[05:08:42] <jmkasunich> your computer should be fine
[05:08:53] <jmkasunich> P3-933 is a good one for EMC2
[05:09:08] <jmkasunich> (unless you have latency issues or something)
[05:09:08] <granville> i didn't think output_scale came into play with steppers?
[05:09:18] <SWPadnos> note that the original system had a serially-connected external step generator board
[05:09:27] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: understood
[05:09:34] <SWPadnos> (in case anyone doesn't know about DeskCNC :) )
[05:09:40] <jmkasunich> but since the original system never worked right anyway, its not very relevant
[05:09:50] <SWPadnos> heh - just defining the baseline
[05:10:04] <jmkasunich> the drives are geckos, or clones
[05:10:14] <jmkasunich> those should be able to move the motor pretty darned well
[05:10:28] <tomp> please confirm 1" cmd moves 1" in X at slowish rate
[05:10:31] <SWPadnos> the "system box" photo actually shows geckodrives
[05:10:53] <granville> what slowish rate should i try?
[05:11:00] <jmkasunich> 1 inch per minute
[05:11:13] <jmkasunich> G0 X0 Y0 Z0
[05:11:15] <jmkasunich> F1
[05:11:18] <jmkasunich> G1 X1
[05:11:26] <granville> one more thing, i don't have internet at the shop, so i can't try anything realtime.
[05:11:34] <jmkasunich> the third line should make it move 1 inch
[05:11:51] <jmkasunich> and it should take one minute to do so
[05:12:07] <jmkasunich> enter the lines one at a time in MDI mode
[05:12:12] <granville> one more thing to add, the diagnal cuts today seemed more on-track than verticle.
[05:12:34] <jmkasunich> you made parts? are they the right size?
[05:13:46] <granville> well, for the angels i was cutting out the size didn't matter, so i didn't measure. They looked about right other than the x being off on each pass.
[05:14:19] <tomp> sounds like staggering between angels?
[05:14:25] <jmkasunich> well, at one point in this conversation you said it looked like it was going at one tenth of the proper speed
[05:14:42] <ejholmgren> 63333333333333333;2.
[05:14:54] <ejholmgren> sorry ... farging cat
[05:15:07] <granville> when trying to increase the speed, i've received axis following errors.
[05:15:14] <jmkasunich> I can't imagine any way it could do that unless its making angels that are one tenth of the proper size- and I think you would notice that
[05:15:35] <tomp> yes, look atthe simplest problem/symptom first, the other problems will resolve
[05:16:38] <granville> ok, so at this point, my todo list is to run the above code and time it, if that turns out right, what next?
[05:16:52] <tomp> dunno till you tell us the result
[05:17:20] <tomp> sorry, else we guess
[05:17:22] <cradek> it would be best if you could copy your entire config (the directory) somewhere we can see it
[05:18:45] <granville> ok, I'll grab that directory too.
[05:19:26] <cradek> woo
[05:19:33] <tomp> wow, is he running emc2 on a mac?
[05:19:42] <cradek> different machine
[05:19:45] <SWPadnos> no - he has no internet access in the shop
[05:25:35] <granville> thanks guys, i don't know if your still getting this my irc client is acting funny.
[05:25:43] <SWPadnos> yep
[05:25:52] <tomp> granville: its ok, we see your dropping out a bit
[05:26:10] <SWPadnos> at least - that came through. nothing else did except for a connect/disconnect or two
[05:26:49] <granville> what limits my top speed?
[05:26:51] <tomp> where/how does he show us the cfg files?
[05:27:25] <tomp> granville: parms in config, and the physics of your machine
[05:27:27] <SWPadnos> for a software generated step system, there are several limits
[05:27:55] <SWPadnos> the main one will be BASE_PERIOD in the ini file
[05:28:03] <ejholmgren> apple completely closed the source for the mach kernel, didn't they?
[05:28:36] <SWPadnos> that determines the maximum step rate you can generate from software (and it's likely that you can reduce that number from the default, to get a faster step rate)
[05:29:02] <SWPadnos> ejholmgren, the NeXT Mach kernel was never open source, I believe
[05:29:19] <granville> if you adjust that number does emc adjust everyting else, or do you have to make other adjustments as well?
[05:29:54] <SWPadnos> there are multiple things you can (and probably should) adjust to match the capabilities of your machine
[05:29:56] <tomp> granville: going faster right now isnt a good thing to try... ;-)
[05:30:14] <SWPadnos> as tomp said, the machine determines the limits (usually ;) )
[05:30:44] <granville> ok, i'll try to sneak out there in a few minutes and grab the config files and run the test.
[05:32:20] <SWPadnos> ok.
[05:32:36] <SWPadnos> it's getting to be bedtime for use East Coast people. see you tomorrow
[05:32:41] <SWPadnos> err - later today ;)
[05:33:02] <ejholmgren> later
[05:33:53] <tomp> nite
[05:45:12] <jmkasunich> bedtime for me too
[05:45:39] <tomp> bye john... hope he rtns soons w data
[05:49:53] <tomp> granville: i may doze off here... your tests will show if your scaling is correct.. try to measure well ( as well as you'd like your machine to be precise)
[05:50:32] <tomp> granville: if the scaling is off, the motion will be off. of the motion(distance traversed) is off, the speed will be off
[05:51:11] <tomp> granville: i know that you see other things, but you need the simple things to be correct for the more complex things to be correct
[05:53:14] <tomp> granville: tell us if you heard anything odd ( you should hear steps distinctly at 1ipm ), or feel anything odd
[05:54:29] <granville> OK, I'm back, the time is off by 5 seconds, but the distance is right. So it took 55 seconds to move 1 inch at f1 or 1min 50 sec for 2 inches at f1.
[05:56:22] <tomp> ok, how big is angel ( i want to know how it relates to the 1" , how 1/8" relates to 1" being ok)
[05:57:51] <tomp> oh, i really want to know about how much travel is in angel for the x axis ( your best guess )
[05:58:28] <granville> looks like 35" is the maxx and about 15" on y.
[05:59:33] <tomp> so in 35" of x you got near .125" error? could the 1" test be off by .125"/35??
[06:00:17] <granville> maybe, that would be hard to see1
[06:00:25] <granville> to see.
[06:00:58] <tomp> yes, but easy to see when multiplied by 35... i think you have a small scaling problem, and it's hard to measure with a short motion
[06:01:24] <tomp> now, that small error may even account for the 5/60 time error
[06:01:25] <granville> what about the time issue, is that the same issue?
[06:01:39] <tomp> i think so
[06:01:56] <tomp> the 2 are interelated
[06:02:42] <tomp> how to fix?? math rather than 'adjusting' or... more trial and error
[06:03:16] <granville> i have the input_scale set at -2378.324, now how i came up with that is going to be hard for me to remember.
[06:04:03] <tomp> i'm not good at that.. i cant suss how it could be negativem tho it seems to work pretty well :-o
[06:04:33] <ejholmgren> why are you guessing at the scaling value? ...
[06:04:40] <granville> I started with the machine tool camp provided config file, and calculated the above number.
[06:05:27] <tomp> it should be related to motor step angle, transmission gearing, and screw pitch
[06:05:27] <ejholmgren> leadscrew tpi, steps per rev, etc not known?
[06:05:52] <ejholmgren> ah
[06:09:02] <granville> their number was mm/step and i think emc is steps/in, i've go to go to another computer to grab that data, but the math came out to 2378.324, i plugged that into emc and it moved what i measured to be an inch, so i figured my calculations were right. I put the negative in because it was moving in the wrong directions on every axis. deep digging, actually reading emc 1 manual i read to change that to negative, this wasn't in the emc2 manual thoug
[22:28:32] <Ziegler> hmmm
[22:29:03] <alex_joni> Ziegler: you need a thread
[22:29:18] <alex_joni> and to add the parport.0.write and .read functions to it
[22:30:06] <Ziegler> ok so like: loadrt threads name1=Test1 period1=1000000
[22:31:36] <tomp> yep, that gets the thread created ( i do bin/halcmd loadrt threads... )
[22:32:15] <tomp> but, did you already 'start', i think you want to spec all threads before 'start'ing
[22:32:23] <alex_joni> then addf
[22:32:33] <Ziegler> addf parport.0.write Test1
[22:32:36] <Ziegler> ?
[22:33:00] <alex_joni> something like that
[22:33:04] <alex_joni> I trust you figure it out :)
[22:33:08] <alex_joni> gotta run now
[22:33:14] <Ziegler> thank you for the help
[22:33:38] <alex_joni> no problem, others still around if you need further assistance ;)
[22:39:20] <Ziegler> Alright.... Have a thread with parport read and write addf'ed to it
[22:40:00] <tomp> now start
[22:40:12] <Ziegler> alright
[22:40:56] <tomp> got emc running too? maybe tkemc?
[22:41:27] <Ziegler> how do I load the specific hal file that I just created?
[22:41:50] <tomp> hmm, you edited a file, not issued cmds?
[22:42:07] <Ziegler> no I issued commands from a terminal
[22:42:24] <Ziegler> then did a halcmd save > step5.hal
[22:43:26] <tomp> oh,,, i had no luck with resinstating a hal file.. the docs say the format is bin/halcmd -f yourhalfilename.hal
[22:44:04] <tomp> i just finsihed making a list of all the neccesary instructions to get my environment back:-(
[22:44:43] <Ziegler> hmm ok
[22:44:46] <tomp> but for now, your file is agood set of notes, and you can continue
[22:44:52] <Ziegler> well that broght it back
[22:45:24] <Ziegler> so what do I do to start emc now?
[22:47:20] <tomp> you need to get some data spit out the parport, and emc likelly is a way to do that... but i'm not sure it wont collide with what you're trying... guru around?
[22:47:49] <tomp> you can try 'scripts/emc' keeping fingers clear of machine tool/motor
[22:48:08] <tomp> wait
[22:48:12] <Ziegler> hehe
[22:48:15] <Ziegler> waiting
[22:48:45] <SWPadnos> err - what are you trying to do? integrate the step type 9 HAL connections into an emc config?
[22:49:05] <Ziegler> step 5 but yes
[22:49:15] <Ziegler> actually I havent even edited a config yet
[22:49:24] <Ziegler> only hal
[22:49:31] <SWPadnos> ok. there's a wiki page on copying configs and modifying them on Ubuntu
[22:49:41] <Ziegler> let me go look
[22:49:46] <Ziegler> (thank you)
[22:50:04] <SWPadnos> you should follow those instructions, then copy in the part of your hal save file that deals with signals going to your parallel port (from stepgen)
[22:50:18] <Ziegler> ok
[22:50:22] <Ziegler> cool
[22:50:35] <SWPadnos> I think the file to change is core_stepper.hal, but I'm not positive (that also assumes that you copy one of the stepper-based configs, which would probably make sense)
[22:53:55] <jmkasunich> you'll want to copy the stepper config
[22:54:25] <Ziegler> here is the link if others were interested: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CustomizingConfigsOnUbuntu
[22:55:14] <jmkasunich> Ziegler: in "core_stepper.hal", where you find a comment line that says:
[22:55:24] <jmkasunich> # connect signals to step pulse generator outputs
[22:55:32] <Ziegler> yes?
[22:55:51] <jmkasunich> thats where you would replace Xstep, etc, with XbitA, or whatever you called them
[22:56:01] <Ziegler> ok cool
[22:56:03] <jmkasunich> the newsig and linkps lines that immediately follow that comment
[22:56:31] <jmkasunich> then in standard_pinout.hal, after the comment that saysL
[22:56:38] <jmkasunich> # finally connect physical pins to the signals
[22:56:49] <jmkasunich> you'd put your new signals instead of Xstep
[22:56:51] <jmkasunich> etc
[22:58:45] <Ziegler> ok let me dig into it a bit.. I know im going to have questions
[23:02:29] <tomp> so by using emc, stepgen gets wired into the chain, downstream of stepgen are signals and pins, upstream is tp and mdi/auto
[23:10:23] <Ziegler> alright
[23:10:38] <Ziegler> how do I get it to apear in the menu when I startup emc?
[23:12:59] <skunkworks> where did you copy your config files? they should be in /home/<your name>/emc2/configs
[23:13:07] <skunkworks> for them to show up in the pick list
[23:13:13] <Ziegler> ahh forgot the configs layer
[23:19:58] <Ziegler> hmmm
[23:20:03] <Ziegler> it opened
[23:20:34] <Ziegler> halshow wont come up
[23:25:47] <Ziegler> ok halshow work now
[23:26:11] <Ziegler> when I look at parport.0.pin-03-out
[23:26:31] <Ziegler> and move the x axis manually in Tkemc it changes from true to false
[23:26:51] <Ziegler> did this mean singal is going to my parallel port?
[23:28:10] <jmkasunich> should be
[23:28:28] <Ziegler> hmmm
[23:28:34] <jmkasunich> true false true false, etc
[23:28:37] <jmkasunich> as it moves
[23:28:38] <Ziegler> yup
[23:28:51] <Ziegler> and parport pinms 1234 all do that
[23:28:59] <jmkasunich> cool
[23:29:13] <Ziegler> so.. guess its a problem with my circuit!
[23:29:25] <jmkasunich> oh, nothing is happening outside the computer?
[23:29:39] <jmkasunich> can you put a meter on the parport pins and see if they are changing?
[23:29:58] <Ziegler> yeah let me try that
[23:33:26] <Ziegler> stuck an led in it
[23:33:31] <Ziegler> thats working
[23:34:11] <skunkworks> then the question is - what is your circuit?
[23:34:49] <Ziegler> heh... an optocouple and some darlington pairs
[23:34:49] <tomp> enabled amp?
[23:34:57] <tomp> oh no enable
[23:35:04] <Ziegler> I threw it together quick... I have no suprise that its not working
[23:35:31] <Ziegler> I need to check my transitors to see if I get them connected right
[23:36:01] <tomp> well, with 4 leds, you do have a working opto-stepper :-)
[23:36:06] <Ziegler> lol
[23:36:14] <Ziegler> maybe thats what I will do
[23:36:26] <Ziegler> strip off the darlingtons and fire though the opto
[23:36:56] <Ziegler> or... is that newbish
[23:36:59] <Ziegler> ;-)
[23:37:05] <Ziegler> hey guys be back in a little while
[23:37:15] <Ziegler> (thank you!)
[23:44:01] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10infrastructure/farm-scripts/ (README run_farm): added support for ntpdate to the farm scripts
[23:55:33] <owhite> hey people. what're your strategies for converting splines into g-codes?
[23:55:52] <SWPadnos> CAM software ;)
[23:55:54] <owhite> *ponders the "what're your" sentance construction*
[23:56:42] <owhite> yeah. I wrote a converter for dxf->gcode
[23:56:46] <owhite> in perl.
[23:57:07] <owhite> *braces for "you should write in python comments*