#emc | Logs for 2006-10-06

[00:46:29] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/stepper/stepper_inch.ini: proper unit for angles is 'degree', not 'degrees'
[00:52:58] <rayh> now I'm really confused because the config I just downloaded has none of that.
[00:53:04] <jmkasunich> ?
[00:53:27] <rayh> Does your tag file say nothing or does it say head?
[00:53:37] <jmkasunich> tag file?
[00:53:49] <rayh> cvs dir in the emc2 directory
[00:54:13] <jmkasunich> don't have a tag file
[00:54:14] <jmkasunich> john@ke-main-ubuntu:~/emcdev/emc2head$ ls CVS/*
[00:54:14] <jmkasunich> CVS/Entries CVS/Entries.Log CVS/Repository CVS/Root
[00:54:37] <rayh> okay.
[00:54:59] <jmkasunich> alex made the units change on sept 28
[00:55:00] <rayh> I guess I'd better check it out from scratch.
[01:23:02] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/emcglb.h:
[01:23:02] <CIA-8> fix up parsing of unit names so it prints a clear error on the log:
[01:23:02] <CIA-8> invalid inifile value for [TRAJ] ANGULAR_UNITS: degreez
[01:23:03] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/ini/initraj.cc:
[01:23:03] <CIA-8> fix up parsing of unit names so it prints a clear error on the log:
[01:23:03] <CIA-8> invalid inifile value for [TRAJ] ANGULAR_UNITS: degreez
[01:33:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder is anyone using the bleeding edge cvs source on production machines.
[01:34:15] <jmkasunich> that would be less than wize
[01:34:27] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah
[01:34:40] <jmkasunich> with machine control, the 'bleeding' can be literal
[01:35:52] <A-L-P-H-A> besides soldering wick, what's a good way to absorb solder?
[01:36:05] <SWPadnos> through the skin
[01:36:28] <SWPadnos> or a solder sucker / vacuum soldering iron ;)
[01:37:03] <A-L-P-H-A> I just found it... my vacuum soldering iron... couldn't find it for a few months... now I found it again. [wasn't looking hard for it]
[02:14:29] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/common/emc.nml: revert emc.nml change that was needed for 64-bit - it breaks at least some 32-bit systems - investigate later
[03:11:57] <A-L-P-H-A> WOW... d-sub punch is EXPENSIVE
[03:13:01] <A-L-P-H-A> 25pin =- $462... while a 37pin is $500!
[03:14:57] <A-L-P-H-A> wonder hard it would be to make a punch... http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/1753.pdf
[03:15:37] <A-L-P-H-A> dims are here. www.l-com.com/multimedia/tips/tip_greenlee_punch.pdf
[03:23:56] <Rugludallur> Anyone here pretty good at algebra which could lend me a brain for a bit ?
[03:24:10] <cradek> how good is pretty good?
[03:24:19] <A-L-P-H-A> <shrug> I got a B.Sc in Math... [but I'm bad at math]
[03:24:29] <Rugludallur> http://www.mathbin.net/922
[03:24:50] <Rugludallur> I'm trying to figure out how the hell to solve this thing and im a bit stumped
[03:25:42] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... the +/- throws me off a litt.e
[03:25:45] <cradek> it's overspecified isn't it?
[03:25:57] <Rugludallur> +- means it can be anywhere from -5 to +5+
[03:26:06] <A-L-P-H-A> nono... I know that... :)
[03:26:10] <Rugludallur> think about it as a curve passing 3 circular areas
[03:26:14] <A-L-P-H-A> hahah... if I didn't know that, and I'm using machine tools... oh boy.
[03:26:53] <cradek> do you really mean 26^x (26 raised to the X power)?
[03:26:57] <Rugludallur> yes
[03:27:30] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm interested in knowing how to solve this without graphing...
[03:27:39] <Rugludallur> so am I
[03:27:53] <A-L-P-H-A> if these were firm numbers, it's just doing some grade 10 math...
[03:28:29] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... hang on.
[03:28:50] <A-L-P-H-A> 3^x = Y + 1.4 -+0.5 [isolate X's side.
[03:28:51] <A-L-P-H-A> ]
[03:29:42] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[03:30:40] <Rugludallur> if you can figure it out your smarter than the guys at #math, they almost threw me out :P
[03:30:53] <A-L-P-H-A> I was gonna say ask in #math
[03:30:54] <A-L-P-H-A> hahah
[03:31:00] <A-L-P-H-A> #math on efnet is pretty helpful.
[03:31:17] <Rugludallur> might try that :D
[03:31:41] <Rugludallur> I got a bunch of these I got to solve
[03:31:57] <A-L-P-H-A> how's the textbook say to do these?
[03:32:17] <Rugludallur> no textbook, real problems :D
[03:32:38] <A-L-P-H-A> how do you isolatexX from (3^x) again?
[03:32:53] <Rugludallur> log
[03:32:53] <A-L-P-H-A> ahh
[03:33:02] <A-L-P-H-A> log base 2 (x)
[03:33:09] <Rugludallur> yup
[03:33:36] <A-L-P-H-A> err. not base 2
[03:33:37] <A-L-P-H-A> base 3.
[03:33:58] <A-L-P-H-A> so... x = log base 3 (Y + 1.4 +-0.5)
[03:34:44] <A-L-P-H-A> substitute x in 11^(log base 3 (Y + 1.4 +-0.5) = 2 -+0.5... isolate for Y....
[03:34:45] <Rugludallur> sounds about right,
[03:34:58] <A-L-P-H-A> err...
[03:35:13] <A-L-P-H-A> substitute x in 11^(log base 3 (Y + 1.4 +-0.5) - Y = 2 -+0.5... isolate for Y....
[03:35:27] <A-L-P-H-A> test in 26^X - y = 2.8 +-0.5
[03:35:48] <A-L-P-H-A> you got matlab? or maple V?
[03:36:05] <Rugludallur> nope :P
[03:37:04] <Rugludallur> hmm since this is really just a curve, could we just not test for highest and lowest value of +-5 alternate
[03:37:11] <Rugludallur> and get a range ?
[03:38:18] <Rugludallur> if we use +5 -5 +5 and -5 +5 -5 and solve it we should get the upper most values of X and Y for both right ?
[03:39:19] <A-L-P-H-A> <shrug>
[03:42:03] <Rugludallur> bahh I think it is time to brew some coffee and hit wikipedia :D
[03:55:40] <cradek> * cradek kicks CIA-8
[03:56:02] <Rugludallur> * Rugludallur pats CIA-8 on the back, he didn't mean it
[03:56:56] <jmkasunich> "down that path lies madness"
[03:58:01] <cradek> surely you can't say you disagree
[03:58:31] <cradek> there's one remaining problem with step that's caused by bogus motion IDs coming from interp or task somewhere
[03:58:35] <jmkasunich> oh, I agree
[03:58:53] <jmkasunich> seems CIA is always missing when somebody makes an interesting commit message
[03:58:59] <cradek> another nice result of that is when you step, it stops on the corners now
[03:59:11] <cradek> it has never done that, even in emc1; it always went past the corners and then stopped
[03:59:20] <jmkasunich> cool
[04:00:39] <cradek> http://pastebin.ca/192697
[04:00:46] <cradek> here's the remaining bug
[04:01:15] <cradek> notice there are two of move 1007 or 1008
[04:01:19] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:01:28] <jmkasunich> I thought you were seeing the opposite before
[04:01:36] <cradek> so they'll be run together with one step
[04:01:37] <jmkasunich> skipped IDs, not duplicate ones
[04:02:07] <cradek> that's what I just fixed I think
[04:02:13] <cradek> (the madness)
[04:02:25] <cradek> that was on the outgoing side of motion, this is wrong on the incoming side
[04:02:35] <cradek> I think there are/were two bugs
[04:08:02] <Rugludallur> brb, going to check in on efnet :D
[04:10:13] <A-L-P-H-A> hey Jymmm
[04:10:23] <Jymmm> Evening A-L-P-H-A
[04:17:43] <A-L-P-H-A> solved?
[04:17:46] <Rugludallur> more confusion
[04:18:10] <Rugludallur> after reading up I am starting to think this is impossible to solve algebraically
[04:18:24] <Rugludallur> that the only way to solve this is graph
[04:18:46] <Rugludallur> There are apparently some equations which are like that
[04:19:55] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm pretty sure it's solveable...
[04:20:17] <A-L-P-H-A> if I had maple V installed, I'd put it in, and hit solve.
[04:25:58] <ejholmgren> what's the equation again?
[04:26:08] <Jymmm> E=mc@
[04:26:12] <Jymmm> E=mc2
[04:26:15] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.mathbin.net/922
[04:37:52] <ejholmgren> might be time to break out the ti86
[04:40:21] <A-L-P-H-A> what's the command for tar to recurse everythin? "tar -cz filename" is what I got so far...
[04:40:35] <Jymmm> xcz iirc
[04:40:57] <A-L-P-H-A> x is exclude
[04:41:16] <Jymmm> shurg
[04:42:54] <A-L-P-H-A> forget it... I just zip instead.
[04:47:34] <ejholmgren> (.28099... , -.53834...) ?
[04:48:00] <ejholmgren> I only get two curves when I plot all three
[04:48:37] <ejholmgren> does one of those a transformation of another?
[04:48:43] <ejholmgren> is
[04:49:19] <A-L-P-H-A> ejholmgren: you sure it's not just out of scale?
[04:51:29] <Rugludallur> there should only really be 1 curve, passing through 3 points
[04:51:47] <ejholmgren> the 26 one would have a big vert stretch
[04:52:10] <Rugludallur> or rather there should be 1 curve intersecting those 3 lines
[04:52:47] <ejholmgren> they're not lines though ...
[04:53:09] <ejholmgren> look like typical expo functions, right?
[04:53:10] <Rugludallur> well the +- 0,5 can be drawn as vertical lines on the scale
[04:53:36] <Rugludallur> and the curve just has to intersect them anywhere
[04:53:44] <ejholmgren> ah
[04:54:17] <Rugludallur> in fact X and Y should be ranges
[04:55:09] <ejholmgren> x is domain and y is range?
[04:55:15] <ejholmgren> in those 3 functions ...
[04:55:42] <ejholmgren> the the +/- only move the curves up and down on the graph
[04:55:46] <ejholmgren> not side to side
[04:55:49] <Rugludallur> yes
[04:56:29] <Rugludallur> Y is only an offset for the starting point
[04:56:45] <Rugludallur> X is the curve
[04:57:12] <Rugludallur> and those 3 points/lines are areas which the curve must pass through
[04:57:46] <Rugludallur> Y is an offset but for the entire curve, not just the starting point
[04:58:27] <ejholmgren> so the + and - give the curve a vertical "area" ?
[04:58:32] <Rugludallur> yes
[04:58:34] <ejholmgren> ah
[04:58:40] <ejholmgren> only in pre calc right now
[04:58:52] <ejholmgren> just trying to understand wtf you're talking about ;)
[04:59:00] <Rugludallur> :D so am I
[05:03:50] <ejholmgren> geez ... that's an ugly looking shape
[05:04:25] <ejholmgren> is it more of a curved shape with multiple sides than a curve?
[05:04:37] <Rugludallur> I have no idea :D
[05:04:52] <ejholmgren> I think it is
[05:04:54] <Rugludallur> I just have the numbers, Im reverse engineering
[05:04:59] <ejholmgren> and it's ugly and sin ;)
[05:08:32] <ejholmgren> got it graphed I think
[05:09:10] <Rugludallur> hehe
[05:09:30] <Rugludallur> Im trying to find an online graph program that can handle exponents on numbers
[05:09:41] <ejholmgren> and yeah, eww ...
[05:10:13] <ejholmgren> taking pre calc without a ti?
[05:10:28] <Rugludallur> nah this is a real life thing I need to figure out
[05:10:50] <Rugludallur> this is probably the most advanced real life math I have ever had the need for though
[05:11:53] <ejholmgren> got my windows right
[05:12:13] <Rugludallur> ?
[05:12:17] <ejholmgren> from what I can tell, it's a 5 sided shape with curves for each side
[05:12:33] <Rugludallur> hmmf that is wierd :P
[05:13:04] <ejholmgren> maybe the scanner will work with a ti? ... sec
[05:13:10] <Rugludallur> It should not be, it should just be an exponential style curve
[05:14:22] <ejholmgren> the range on the y makes in into an area I think
[05:14:37] <Rugludallur> and there should be a very narrow band for X and Y which should be around 0.3 and 0.2 or so
[05:15:19] <ejholmgren> (.3,.2) does exist inside the shape
[05:15:45] <Rugludallur> X c.a. 0.217 and Y 0.08 would be around what I would have figure
[05:16:00] <Rugludallur> derr X 0.317 and Y 0.08 or so
[05:29:59] <Rugludallur> ahh I now see, found a graphing program and it starts to make sense
[05:33:19] <ejholmgren> figure it out?
[05:33:27] <Rugludallur> thought I had but no donuts
[05:38:43] <Rugludallur> ok the reason why this is causing all these problems is because it can't be drawn
[05:38:55] <Rugludallur> that is an impossible curve to create
[05:39:11] <Rugludallur> you can get very close but it can't be done
[05:39:45] <Rugludallur> the closts possible is x=0,31657 Y=0,06
[05:40:17] <Rugludallur> which means that the curve will miss the middle line by 0.3
[05:40:48] <Rugludallur> could be a third variable which I am missing
[05:46:57] <ejholmgren> bed time
[05:46:59] <ejholmgren> good luck
[05:47:03] <Rugludallur> thanks for your help
[05:47:08] <Rugludallur> been interesting :D
[06:01:16] <Rugludallur> good night ppl
[06:11:04] <A-L-P-H-A> logger_aj: bookmark
[06:11:04] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm feeling lazy .. but here's the log anyways:
[06:12:14] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni: could you like move some of the 2004 stuff into their own '2004' folder? and 2005 as well?
[07:11:40] <K`zan> Night folks, too long a day, splat time...
[07:24:16] <A-L-P-H-A> what's best? optical switches, or proximity switches for home/limit switches?
[07:24:32] <A-L-P-H-A> I assume microswitches aren't good enough
[07:27:35] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: that would break indexing with google :)
[07:31:24] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni: "best home limit switch" doesn't show up much
[07:32:46] <alex_joni> logger_aj: search
[07:32:46] <alex_joni> Try this address for searching the logs:
[07:33:48] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: anyways.. usually proximity are used
[07:33:55] <alex_joni> along with nice bumpers
[07:34:12] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni: is there a reason why prox are used instead of optical
[07:34:24] <alex_joni> I guess there's less sensible to busting
[07:34:28] <alex_joni> e.g. part hits them
[07:34:53] <alex_joni> optics are more precise.. but you don't need precision for limits anyways
[07:34:59] <alex_joni> you just need it to stop when it's there
[07:35:10] <A-L-P-H-A> true...
[07:35:20] <alex_joni> optics are usually used for homing
[07:35:30] <alex_joni> although not in the form of an optical switch
[07:35:40] <alex_joni> but rather a switch along with an index pulse on the encoder
[07:36:01] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni: could you explain that more?
[07:37:39] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/ini_homing/index.html
[07:37:52] <alex_joni> look at the graphs where USE_INDEX = true
[07:41:04] <A-L-P-H-A> I see the graphs... I don't understand fully what they are exactly... but understand that it's a seq. of events to figure out the exact home location
[07:43:13] <alex_joni> yes
[07:43:18] <alex_joni> look at the last one
[07:43:25] <alex_joni> that's the most complex and most accurate
[07:43:39] <alex_joni> imagine it like this: 1. search for home switch fast
[07:43:51] <alex_joni> when you hit it (because you travel fast) you'll probably overshoot
[07:44:00] <A-L-P-H-A> k
[07:44:04] <alex_joni> so then do 2. go back off the switch, and re-approach with slow speed
[07:44:17] <alex_joni> 3. once the home switch is hit again, look for the next index pulse
[07:44:23] <alex_joni> that's the exact home position
[07:44:37] <A-L-P-H-A> ahhh.
[07:46:19] <A-L-P-H-A> 10mm away, move fast towards switch, switch trigers, but over shoots. move back several mm, travel towards switch again with slow motion. switch triggers, and next pulse I'm at home.
[07:46:30] <A-L-P-H-A> exactly what the diagram shows.
[07:49:16] <alex_joni> indeed :)
[07:49:31] <A-L-P-H-A> however...
[07:50:00] <alex_joni> ??
[07:50:25] <A-L-P-H-A> optical switches don't have a hi/trip states... so what are the values for an optical switch?
[07:52:05] <alex_joni> sure they do
[07:52:13] <A-L-P-H-A> hi=hit
[07:52:19] <alex_joni> from the outside you see them just like a normal switch
[07:52:31] <alex_joni> no hit = 0, hit = 5V/24V
[07:52:41] <alex_joni> or reversed for some models
[07:52:42] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... I thought that meant the arm.
[07:52:47] <A-L-P-H-A> arm of a microswitch
[07:52:56] <A-L-P-H-A> always a hex inverter.
[07:56:53] <alex_joni> same thing actually..
[08:00:43] <A-L-P-H-A> optical switches are much cheaper... I'll probably go with those... something pulled from a mouse... or something.
[08:05:20] <alex_joni> I tend to disagree
[08:05:29] <A-L-P-H-A> ?
[08:05:30] <A-L-P-H-A> why
[08:05:39] <alex_joni> an industrial optical switch is way more expensive than a mechanical one
[08:05:44] <A-L-P-H-A> let me pull the number off the optical switches I have.
[08:07:08] <A-L-P-H-A> omron ee-sb5
[08:11:05] <alex_joni> http://www.mysick.com/partnerPortal/eCat.aspx?c=1&go=Finder&Cat=Row&At=Fa&Cult=English&Category=Produktfinder
[08:11:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I get nothing from that link
[08:17:29] <fenn> nasty website
[08:17:54] <fenn> A-L-P-H-A: optical switches are more sensitive to dirt and dust
[08:18:10] <A-L-P-H-A> Mount them upside down?
[08:18:18] <fenn> nah just get a sealed switch
[08:19:12] <fenn> also, prox sensors have no moving parts
[08:19:19] <alex_joni> Model NameWT2S-P261
[08:19:20] <alex_joni> Part Number1023640
[08:19:27] <alex_joni> http://www.mysick.com/saqqara/thumbnail.aspx?id=im0012094
[08:19:40] <alex_joni> http://www.mysick.com/partnerPortal/ProductCatalog/DataSheetPrint.aspx?ProductID=6450
[08:20:08] <alex_joni> but I'd prefer a mechanical one :)
[08:22:20] <A-L-P-H-A> how about ultrasonic sensors?
[08:25:07] <alex_joni> how about a LIDAR ?
[08:26:25] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIDAR
[08:26:47] <alex_joni> Stanley had 5 of them :)
[08:32:49] <A-L-P-H-A> okay... seems like my sensors are good enough for the job... as long as they're repeatable.
[08:35:23] <A-L-P-H-A> doesn't tell me the response time. http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Omron%20Web%20Data/EE-SB5M,%20SB5MC,%20SB5V,%20SB5VC,%20SB5V-E.pdf
[08:42:41] <A-L-P-H-A> what's this thing do?? http://tool-eye.com/index.html
[08:47:38] <alex_joni> http://tool-eye.com/_wsn/page2.html
[08:51:02] <A-L-P-H-A> still don't know what the unit does
[08:51:20] <A-L-P-H-A> it is a home switch sensor? or what...
[08:51:27] <A-L-P-H-A> a probe?
[08:55:13] <alex_joni> measuring thingie
[08:55:22] <alex_joni> probably to zero tools
[08:55:28] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni: :)
[08:55:59] <A-L-P-H-A> I guess I'd need to know how it would be mounted to do its thing
[08:56:02] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: it probably can measure tool diameter
[08:56:11] <alex_joni> as you can see from that picture
[08:56:30] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[08:56:46] <A-L-P-H-A> kinda stupid if you ask me... as I see no use for it.
[08:57:25] <alex_joni> it can precisely measure tool diameter
[08:57:33] <alex_joni> to cover worn out tools
[08:57:41] <alex_joni> and you can use it for homing..
[08:57:50] <alex_joni> although kinda hard
[09:04:03] <A-L-P-H-A> what happens if I give an stepper motor 22.16x it's rated voltage? Motor is rated 2.8V 2.8A, and giving it around 62V?
[09:04:30] <A-L-P-H-A> other than it'll get really warm.
[09:58:49] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
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[10:10:09] <alex_joni> fscking power grid
[12:57:44] <alex_joni> hmm.. CIA seems to gone
[12:57:47] <alex_joni> to be gone
[12:57:58] <SWPadnos> gone be CIA
[12:58:13] <jepler> oh well
[12:58:21] <jepler> to the secret prison with you
[12:58:30] <alex_joni> hmm.. the page is also down
[12:58:32] <SWPadnos> yes, mr president
[12:58:38] <alex_joni> http://cia.navi.cx/
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[14:57:37] <cradek> the mails to CIA are stuck in the queue with 'no route to host'
[15:09:37] <SWPadnos> as alex pointed out, cia.navi.cx seems to be down
[15:10:12] <cradek> I bet there'll be a little mail waiting for them when they come back
[15:10:30] <SWPadnos> and 37 commit messages to irc ;)
[15:18:52] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/power.JPG
[15:19:00] <skunkworks> getting there
[15:25:28] <fenn> dunno if those traces are fat enough
[15:26:02] <skunkworks> they may not be :)
[15:26:09] <fenn> why bother with the thermals? just use a propane torch to solder :P
[15:26:31] <skunkworks> I am planing on milling it out of a solid billet of copper..
[15:26:33] <Jymmm> maap gas
[15:30:20] <skunkworks> then glue it to some fiberglass board.
[15:31:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[15:38:30] <skunkworks> This one is going to have no current limit. Just to play.
[15:38:40] <skunkworks> (other than the fuse.
[15:38:41] <skunkworks> )
[15:39:43] <anonimasu> skunkworks: why do you need current limits?
[15:39:44] <anonimasu> ^_^
[15:39:50] <anonimasu> *grins*
[15:40:15] <skunkworks> I think they are way over used anyways :)
[15:40:45] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Fuses? We don't need any stinking fuses!
[15:40:57] <anonimasu> fuses are one thing
[15:41:03] <anonimasu> current limit's another ;)
[15:41:19] <anonimasu> though they do limit the current ;D
[15:42:08] <Jymmm> Get some cajones... just want till some 8ga wire begins to melt!
[15:42:45] <Jymmm> * Jymmm remembers to get a 10lb CO2 fire extinguisher
[15:43:04] <skunkworks> na - the fires don't burn very long.
[15:43:21] <Jymmm> skunkworks: No, but MDF does
[15:43:22] <anonimasu> hehe
[15:43:48] <anonimasu> I've got a large co2 out in the shop :)
[15:44:23] <Jymmm> I wanted Halon, but I'm not paying $500 for a 5lb one
[15:44:28] <skunkworks> chemical ones are the best - You get to clean the powder out of stuff for years.
[15:44:42] <anonimasu> hm..
[15:44:45] <Jymmm> skunkworks you mean the corrosive powder
[15:44:46] <anonimasu> yep
[15:44:50] <anonimasu> I've got a halon somewhere..
[15:45:05] <skunkworks> halotron is what I have here at work for my office.
[15:45:23] <Jymmm> FM2200 iirc is the replacement for halon
[15:45:31] <anonimasu> I've got a old tube of halon ;)
[15:45:47] <skunkworks> there goes the ozone ;)
[15:46:01] <anonimasu> oh, im not going to use it..
[15:46:02] <anonimasu> :D
[15:46:20] <Jymmm> The ABC type is filled with monoammonium phosphate, a yellow powder that leaves a sticky residue that may be damaging to electrical appliances such as a computer
[15:46:26] <anonimasu> yep
[15:46:29] <anonimasu> co2 is nice :)
[15:46:44] <anonimasu> but I dunno if it'll stop alu chips from burning
[15:46:50] <anonimasu> once they ignite ;)
[15:47:06] <Jymmm> http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/
[15:47:46] <Jymmm> The problem *I* have is that most extinguishers dont cover A and BC very well equally.
[15:48:08] <Jymmm> and Dry chem is such a pita
[15:49:00] <anonimasu> yep
[15:49:10] <anonimasu> well, the flood coolant should never let alu ignite
[15:49:45] <skunkworks> stupid question.. I didn't know aluminum would burn.
[15:50:03] <skunkworks> I know magnesim will - but aluminum?
[15:51:21] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Yeah, I thought the same thing, but I figured he meant magnesium.
[15:51:43] <Jymmm> NEVER EVER use water on a magnesium fire though.... KABOOM!
[15:51:47] <anonimasu> hehe
[15:51:48] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:52:05] <anonimasu> yeah alu shouldnt burn
[15:52:06] <Jymmm> You have to use a graffiti extinguisher to slow it down.
[15:53:02] <anonimasu> http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/a/aluminum_alloys.htm
[15:53:15] <fenn> aluminum burns if you get it hot enough
[15:53:34] <fenn> if you use it as an electrical conductor and it arcs for instance
[15:53:48] <anonimasu> I doubt you could make chips that hot..
[15:53:52] <anonimasu> without trying
[15:54:46] <anonimasu> :)
[15:54:52] <anonimasu> well
[15:54:53] <anonimasu> brb
[15:54:58] <fenn> i dont think its a self-sustaining reaction
[15:55:20] <fenn> it has to be really finely divided to burn on its own
[16:23:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> magnesium doesn't
[16:24:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've burnt strips of it before (4mmx1mm)
[16:24:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> very bright white light
[16:25:14] <A-L-P-H-A> what happens if I give an stepper motor 22.16x it's rated voltage? Motor is rated 2.8V 2.8A, and giving it around 62V?
[16:25:40] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra: made ferrite yet? :)
[16:26:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you mean iron II oxide / iron III oxide?
[16:26:32] <A-L-P-H-A> yes
[16:26:44] <A-L-P-H-A> err no
[16:26:56] <A-L-P-H-A> iron oxide + aluminium oxide.
[16:27:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[16:27:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> right, nope net yet
[16:27:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> intentionally at least
[16:28:58] <A-L-P-H-A> oops... my bad. it was thermite
[16:29:11] <A-L-P-H-A> not ferrite. :)
[16:29:21] <A-L-P-H-A> bbiab.
[16:30:52] <skunkworks> A-L-P-H-A: as long is it is current limited - it will be fine.
[17:20:10] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/motion.c: fix format string errors
[17:20:10] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/halcmd.c: fix format string errors
[17:20:10] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/rtapi.h: enable gcc warnings about format strings
[17:20:10] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/hal_lib.c: fix format string errors
[17:20:10] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/ (rtai_rtapi.c rtai_ulapi.c): fix format string errors
[17:20:11] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/ (hal_evoreg.c hal_ppmc.c probe_parport.c): fix format string errors
[17:20:14] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/sim_rtapi_app.cc: remove debugging statement
[17:20:16] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/components/ (streamer.c threads.c weighted_sum.c): fix format string errors
[17:20:19] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/classicladder/module_rt.c: fix format string errors
[17:20:23] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/ (Makefile Makefile.inc.in): added 'sampler', a HAL component that captures data from HAL pins at regular intervals and makes it available on stdout
[17:20:26] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/components/ (sampler.c sampler_usr.c Submakefile streamer.c streamer.h): added 'sampler', a HAL component that captures data from HAL pins at regular intervals and makes it available on stdout
[17:20:30] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/sim_rtapi_app.cc: some C++ compilers reject using reinterpret_cast to turn a data pointer into a function pointer. The C-style cast is accepted, however.
[17:20:35] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/sim_rtapi_app.cc: handle string and array parameters, so that sampler can be used
[17:20:38] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/task/emccanon.cc:
[17:20:40] <CIA-8> fix step bug caused by motion IDs on adjacent motions being the same
[17:20:42] <CIA-8> (flushed segment and the segment that caused the flush). This fixes
[17:20:44] <CIA-8> the off-by-one-line problem in the gui while stepping too.
[17:20:46] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/kinematics/tp.c:
[17:20:50] <CIA-8> if we're in the middle of a step (planning to pause at the end of this
[17:20:52] <CIA-8> segment) don't blend with the next one; down that path lies madness.
[17:20:54] <CIA-8> this fixes most of the step problems. The rest of the bug (missing
[17:20:56] <CIA-8> or incorrect motion IDs) must be interp/task.
[17:20:58] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/ (interpl.cc interpl.hh):
[17:21:00] <CIA-8> fix step bug caused by motion IDs on adjacent motions being the same
[17:21:04] <CIA-8> (flushed segment and the segment that caused the flush). This fixes
[17:21:06] <CIA-8> the off-by-one-line problem in the gui while stepping too.
[17:31:54] <dave_1> anyone home?
[17:31:57] <dave_1> awake?
[17:32:08] <SWPadnos> no
[17:32:20] <dave_1> ah! a victim!
[17:32:38] <SWPadnos> damn
[17:32:39] <dave_1> good time to be napping or whatever
[17:32:42] <SWPadnos> err - hi
[17:32:50] <dave_1> hi swp
[17:32:59] <dave_1> need a bit of help.
[17:33:14] <dave_1> tried to download pure_sim cvs....
[17:33:24] <SWPadnos> sorry - you're already beyond me ;)
[17:33:38] <dave_1> and the directions given on the wiki require a password.
[17:33:46] <SWPadnos> (I don't have an EMC development machine at the moment, so I haven't even downloaded the sim code)
[17:33:49] <dave_1> yeah! right!
[17:34:32] <dave_1> so either I need a password or need to convert the download to anon
[17:35:09] <SWPadnos> wait, so you have a source download already, but you can't download a new tagged revision?
[17:35:14] <fenn> cvs -z9 -d:ext:anon@cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs co -d emc2-puresim emc2
[17:35:28] <fenn> you may continue with your regularly scheduled program
[17:35:49] <dave_1> ok ... suspected that might work but then I stumble over all sorts of things.
[17:35:58] <dave_1> hi fenn
[17:36:10] <SWPadnos> yeah, that or the instructions in the wiki should work if you have your ssh keys properly stored in your .ssh directory
[17:36:47] <dave_1> guess I'm going to have to fumble thru that one of these days.
[17:36:51] <SWPadnos> if you've never done a "named" checkout, then anonymous is the easiest
[17:37:30] <dave_1> right now I need to build some analog stuff for controlling the edm.
[17:38:11] <dave_1> thanks ... I'll go give it a try.
[17:46:50] <dave_1> thanks fenn dowload went well.
[17:47:02] <alex_joni> dave_1: what system is this?
[17:47:13] <dave_1> Hi Alex
[17:47:23] <alex_joni> hi dave_1
[17:47:36] <dave_1> my system is FC 5
[17:47:53] <dave_1> needs tk support to configure
[17:48:03] <alex_joni> tcl & tk
[17:48:29] <dave_1> libs, everything
[17:48:53] <dave_1> what version do I go for?
[17:49:00] <alex_joni> 8.4 usually
[17:49:29] <dave_1> OK
[17:49:43] <dave_1> we'll see how that goes.
[17:49:50] <dave_1> bbl
[17:54:53] <skunkworks> alex_joni: Think I will burn these traces off? :)
[17:54:57] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/power.JPG
[17:56:20] <alex_joni> skunkworks: might not :)
[17:56:33] <alex_joni> even if you do.. put some wires and lots of solder
[17:57:19] <skunkworks> thats plan B.
[18:00:24] <skunkworks> what hal module was cradek using to control his spindle on the lathe?
[18:00:37] <skunkworks> pwm out.. C
[18:03:38] <skunkworks> * skunkworks wanders out to car to get hal manual
[18:05:29] <SWPadnos> freqgen, I think
[18:06:45] <alex_joni> freqgen it is
[18:06:59] <alex_joni> freqgen with step_type=1
[18:13:24] <alex_joni> skunkworks: isn't that board a bit bare?
[18:13:34] <alex_joni> where's the power connection?
[18:13:55] <skunkworks> can you do an accelleration with that (think spindle speed)? -- Ok let me explain my self.. I am not going to have an encoder this weekend to test the pid loop - but I will probably have the circuit done. I was thinking about playing with one of the servos set up as a spindle.
[18:14:17] <alex_joni> you can still put a pid on it
[18:14:26] <skunkworks> alex_joni: still working on it... wanted to do the power traces first
[18:14:27] <alex_joni> but as feedback get the speed from freqgen
[18:14:45] <SWPadnos> err - how cn you do the power traces without having the power input there?
[18:14:49] <SWPadnos> s/cn/can/
[18:15:02] <alex_joni> the power input is there
[18:15:09] <alex_joni> the motor connection isn't :)
[18:15:13] <SWPadnos> is that PAD1 and PAD2
[18:15:14] <SWPadnos> ok then ;)
[18:15:33] <skunkworks> its not all there yet. Jeez - give me some time :)
[18:16:04] <skunkworks> had not decided where I was going to put the pads for the motor yet... wanted to get all the chips in the center first.
[18:16:11] <SWPadnos> ther is no time left. we must have this driver finished yesterday, or our entire marketing plan is fubar'ed
[18:16:49] <skunkworks> I am just getting to the point that I am semi comfortable with eagle.
[18:16:53] <alex_joni> http://www.peters-cnc-ecke.de/forumupload/uploadFiles/11086_115674027908_roboter3001.jpg
[18:16:59] <alex_joni> do you guys see that?
[18:17:00] <SWPadnos> skunkworks, I'm sorry ;)
[18:17:36] <SWPadnos> that looks like a lot of hardware for some unknown purpose ;)
[18:17:40] <skunkworks> I did find out that either I am doing someting wrong or eagle can't do a pour on a pour and figure out where the edges should be.
[18:17:50] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: an german guy building a bot
[18:17:52] <alex_joni> puma typed
[18:17:59] <alex_joni> will probably work with emc2 one day
[18:18:04] <alex_joni> that's joints 4,5,6
[18:18:10] <SWPadnos> seems like a lot of motors for the only degree of freedom I see ;)
[18:18:20] <skunkworks> rube goldburg?
[18:18:33] <alex_joni> http://www.peters-cnc-ecke.de/forumupload/uploadFiles/11086_115674027908_roboter3002.jpg
[18:18:47] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: the stuff to the left are 3 tubes one inside the other I think
[18:18:51] <SWPadnos> OK. I see that the two center boxes could be made to turn, and the shaft on each also made to turn independently
[18:19:45] <skunkworks> ooh - joint. But plastic gear?
[18:19:51] <skunkworks> testing I suppose
[18:23:12] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: and he used some differentials to keep 5 & 6 in the same place while 4 is turning
[18:23:41] <skunkworks> so this is trying to make a arm with the motors at the base?
[18:23:54] <skunkworks> all the motors
[18:30:42] <alex_joni> no, those are only 3 motors
[18:30:46] <alex_joni> there will be other 3
[18:31:01] <alex_joni> skunkworks: usually the motors for 4,5 & 6 are in the same place :)
[18:31:56] <skunkworks> shows you how much I know.
[18:32:30] <skunkworks> * skunkworks shows it every day :)
[18:33:09] <skunkworks> alex_joni: is that how your welding bots are?
[18:35:19] <alex_joni> skunkworks: almost
[18:35:32] <alex_joni> on my bots it's only slightly different
[18:35:40] <alex_joni> the motors for 5 & 6 are in a cage
[18:35:49] <alex_joni> and they turn together with joint 4
[18:36:00] <alex_joni> I mean the cage is fixed to joint 4
[18:59:52] <skunkworks> All I really see from those pictures is a lot of backlash :)
[19:00:47] <alex_joni> well.. my bots don't use belts :D
[19:01:10] <skunkworks> lots of preloaded gears?
[19:01:25] <alex_joni> not that many.. 2 stages / joint
[19:01:30] <alex_joni> so 4 gears
[19:01:41] <alex_joni> but adjustable
[19:01:46] <skunkworks> how often do they need to be re-tightened?
[19:01:53] <alex_joni> well.. for a while at least :D
[19:02:00] <alex_joni> once every 5000h I need to check them
[19:02:40] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/task/emctaskmain.cc: fix bug where a step while already stepping would cause a resume.
[19:02:40] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/command.c: fix bug where a step while already stepping would cause a resume.
[19:02:50] <alex_joni> yay
[19:03:54] <skunkworks> Nice work
[19:04:46] <cradek> now if I hold down T (step) it stops briefly at every corner, and when I release T it stops
[19:08:19] <jepler> welcome back cia
[19:08:36] <skunkworks> cradek: I don't see your stepper threading config in 2.0 - Is it in head?
[19:09:11] <alex_joni> it is
[19:09:16] <cradek> I don't remember - 'max' might have some threading stuff
[19:09:22] <cradek> in 2.0 I mean
[19:09:27] <cradek> I think nist-lathe is in head
[19:10:53] <skunkworks> Might need some help this weekend if I can't figure it out.. I want do the spindle control.
[19:11:13] <skunkworks> to test this circuit
[19:15:04] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/command.c: shouldn't happen, but it can't hurt to report an error anyways
[19:16:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: is css and/or feed in units/rev on the todo list?
[19:17:02] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: sure.. but that's a long list
[19:17:10] <alex_joni> so no-one's keeping exact track
[19:17:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: that's what I was thinking
[19:17:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[19:18:57] <cradek> to be honest I think my priority right now is getting ready for a 2.1 branch - not starting new features
[19:19:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: by 2.1 you mean a stable branch?
[19:19:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I didn't really mean priority as much as "yes that's something that we would like to have later on"
[19:19:35] <cradek> yes
[19:19:51] <cradek> oh everyone agrees we'd like to have it :-)
[19:20:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :) that's good. pretty much the only thing I seem to find missing from lathe-stuff (except for sub-routines, but that's a completely different matter)
[19:21:21] <cradek> subroutines? we definitely have that
[19:21:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'm thinking roughing cycles and canned threading and so on
[19:21:45] <alex_joni> canned cycles too
[19:21:51] <alex_joni> some
[19:21:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh? cool
[19:22:21] <cradek> there's a basic threading cycle in head
[19:22:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, is that new? I didn't notice that
[19:22:55] <cradek> a few months old?
[19:23:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, that must have slipped by
[19:23:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I do most stuff in cad/cam anyway (elipses don't play nice with rs-274)
[20:09:29] <K`zan> Just wondering what folks here pay for, say, a 3/8" shank 3/8" end mill?
[20:09:47] <K`zan> Probably aluminum cutting?
[20:11:00] <fenn> "too much"?
[20:11:28] <fenn> actually i got a deal on a box of endmills at a used tool store
[20:11:42] <jmkasunich> K`zan: prices range from a dollar or two to fifty or more
[20:11:54] <anonimasu> depends on quality/brand
[20:12:59] <jmkasunich> HSS or carbide, coated or uncoated, two flute, three, four?
[20:13:05] <jmkasunich> high helix?
[20:13:09] <jmkasunich> extra long?
[20:13:09] <anonimasu> lol
[20:13:22] <SWPadnos> USA made or import ...
[20:13:32] <SWPadnos> (that's about an order of magnitude change)
[20:13:35] <alex_joni> made while importing?
[20:13:41] <SWPadnos> imported toolmakers
[20:14:09] <jmkasunich> should be "USA, china/india import, other import"
[20:14:41] <jmkasunich> other import can be every bit as good as US
[20:14:41] <jmkasunich> A
[20:15:13] <fenn> K`zan: get HSS not carbidee
[20:15:28] <SWPadnos> depends on what you're cutting
[20:15:34] <anonimasu> hm, and on your mill?
[20:15:37] <anonimasu> err
[20:15:37] <anonimasu> .
[20:15:39] <SWPadnos> cobalt is quite good, but carbide is brittle (IIRC)
[20:15:53] <jmkasunich> for a home-shop sized mill, I
[20:16:00] <jmkasunich> I'd have to agree with fenn - HSS
[20:16:22] <SWPadnos> even if your home-shop mill is a Bridgeport? ;)
[20:16:37] <jmkasunich> for 90% of home shop work, yes
[20:16:40] <anonimasu> haha
[20:16:56] <SWPadnos> heh - I suppose I'd have to upgrade the Shop-Vac if I wanted to do real production
[20:17:03] <jmkasunich> carbide is all about maximum metal removal per hour and per doller
[20:17:16] <jmkasunich> you rarely push a home machine that hard, even if it is a bport
[20:17:36] <jmkasunich> and running light cuts with carbide doesn't give all that good results
[20:17:41] <anonimasu> *grins*
[20:17:48] <anonimasu> good point
[20:17:51] <skunkworks> although if your spindle is router speeds - carbide might be the way to go.
[20:18:03] <jmkasunich> yeah, router speed is different
[20:18:21] <jmkasunich> but we're talking 3/8" diameter in aluminum here
[20:18:39] <jmkasunich> and unless you have flood coolant, you won't be able to use carbide anywhere near its capability
[20:18:53] <anonimasu> that goes the same with hss..
[20:19:39] <jmkasunich> but HSS is more forgiving of running at less than ideal chip loads
[20:19:58] <skunkworks> good point - depends on the router - ours has a 1/2 collet/
[20:20:15] <jmkasunich> carbide is often (not always) less "sharp", and relies more on brute force and strength to take a heavy chip
[20:20:30] <jmkasunich> they rely on the chip carrying away the heat generated from very high surface speed
[20:20:55] <jmkasunich> otoh, a razor sharp HSS cutter will do OK taking light chips if you need to clean up that last half-thou
[20:21:19] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/power.JPG
[20:21:52] <jmkasunich> saw that
[20:22:06] <jmkasunich> where is your cap?
[20:22:12] <alex_joni> skunkworks: nothing new?
[20:22:17] <skunkworks> nope
[20:22:19] <alex_joni> what did you do in the last 2 hours?
[20:22:21] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/scripts/halrun.in: return a useful exit code
[20:22:23] <skunkworks> it isn
[20:22:42] <skunkworks> it isn't finished yet.. just wanted to get the power traces down
[20:22:56] <skunkworks> sorry - Actually at work :)
[20:23:07] <jmkasunich> the cap is an important part of the power circuit
[20:23:12] <jmkasunich> caps I should say
[20:23:19] <fenn> hey jmk know anything about switched reluctance motors?
[20:23:33] <jmkasunich> only a little
[20:23:35] <skunkworks> are we talking the the powersupply caps or the bootstrap caps?
[20:23:36] <fenn> in particular what the difference is betwen them and a variable reluctance stepper
[20:23:46] <jmkasunich> I saw a 400HP one once, does that count?
[20:23:58] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: power supply caps
[20:24:06] <skunkworks> ah - they will be external.
[20:24:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: hmm.. probably bigger than a stepper
[20:24:15] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: wrong answer
[20:24:17] <alex_joni> wonder what the biggest stepper is :)
[20:24:51] <fenn> srm's have a smaller number of poles
[20:24:52] <jmkasunich> fenn: VR steppers have a lot in common with SR motors
[20:24:57] <jmkasunich> just the pole count
[20:25:01] <fenn> is that all?
[20:25:16] <fenn> does that simplify control (and reducing torque ripple)
[20:25:19] <jmkasunich> sorry: "just the pole count is the main difference"
[20:25:29] <fenn> or is it just easier to manufacture with less poles
[20:26:07] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: I will have 2 supplies - one for the logic and one for the power. logic will have the caps on board. The power will be external. (but really really close). did that make sense or am I still just wrong :)
[20:26:12] <fenn> they look so basic i'm thinking about making one just for the fun of it
[20:26:15] <jmkasunich> high pole count: allows open loop position control, increases the torque ripple frequency allowing inertia to filter the ripple
[20:26:46] <jmkasunich> low pole count: easier to make, don't need outrageous output frequencies
[20:27:06] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: sorry, two conversations at once sucks
[20:27:23] <jmkasunich> the key for any switching power circuit is low inductance in the switch loop
[20:27:47] <jmkasunich> for a totem pole (half of an H-bridge) the loop is from top of PS cap, thru high switch, thru low switch, to bottom of PS cap
[20:27:59] <jmkasunich> every time you switch, the current in that loop changes state
[20:28:08] <jmkasunich> and you get L*dI/dT voltage spikes
[20:29:13] <jmkasunich> I'd put 2 or 3 moderate size electrolytic cans on each totem pole
[20:29:38] <jmkasunich> for example, the top one - put on can below U$1, one below PAD1, and one below U$2
[20:29:54] <jmkasunich> all in parallel, using the heavy + and - traces that are already right there
[20:30:05] <jmkasunich> result is a very compact low inductance loop
[20:30:12] <jmkasunich> same on the bottom totem pole
[20:30:48] <jmkasunich> if the diameter of each cap is somewhat less the the width of the diodes/fets, you still have a fair space in the middle for the control electronics
[20:31:18] <fenn> logger_aj: bookmark
[20:31:18] <fenn> I'm feeling lazy .. but here's the log anyways:
[20:32:28] <jmkasunich> fenn: regarding steppers - VR steppers are conceptually similar to SR motors, and normal steppers are conceptually similar to brushless DC motors (or AC servomotors)
[20:32:32] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: thank you - as always very informative. What size are we talking here 10000uf?
[20:32:46] <jmkasunich> no
[20:32:53] <jmkasunich> they're not for 120HZ ripple
[20:32:57] <jmkasunich> they're for switching transients
[20:33:00] <skunkworks> ah
[20:33:08] <K`zan> jmkasunich: you buy $50 endmills?!??
[20:33:11] <jmkasunich> dozens to hundreds of uF
[20:33:18] <jmkasunich> K`zan: no, I don't do production
[20:33:26] <skunkworks> that is very doable- thanks
[20:33:50] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/ (motion.c motion.h usrmotintf.cc usrmotintf.h):
[20:33:50] <CIA-8> removed alter.
[20:33:50] <CIA-8> this was a leftover from emc1 supposed to add an offset to the motor position on each joint.
[20:33:50] <CIA-8> nowadays we can do all this and much more directly in HAL (hint: simple adder...).
[20:33:50] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/ (emc.cc emc.hh):
[20:33:51] <CIA-8> removed alter.
[20:33:53] <CIA-8> this was a leftover from emc1 supposed to add an offset to the motor position on each joint.
[20:33:55] <jmkasunich> basically, see what is available in a 10-12mm case of the appropriate voltage
[20:33:57] <CIA-8> nowadays we can do all this and much more directly in HAL (hint: simple adder...).
[20:33:57] <K`zan> fenn: That is what I got, I ended up with a chipped fluke and can't figure out why, someone suggested it was a cheap endmill ($5 on sale from Enco).
[20:33:59] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/task/ (emctaskmain.cc taskintf.cc):
[20:34:01] <CIA-8> removed alter.
[20:34:03] <CIA-8> this was a leftover from emc1 supposed to add an offset to the motor position on each joint.
[20:34:03] <alex_joni> fenn: where's that pdf you've been studying ?
[20:34:05] <CIA-8> nowadays we can do all this and much more directly in HAL (hint: simple adder...).
[20:34:07] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/ (emcsh.cc halui.cc usrmot.c):
[20:34:11] <CIA-8> removed alter.
[20:34:13] <CIA-8> this was a leftover from emc1 supposed to add an offset to the motor position on each joint.
[20:34:14] <fenn> alex_joni: er.. pdf?
[20:34:15] <CIA-8> nowadays we can do all this and much more directly in HAL (hint: simple adder...).
[20:34:17] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/extensions/emcmodule.cc:
[20:34:19] <CIA-8> removed alter.
[20:34:21] <CIA-8> this was a leftover from emc1 supposed to add an offset to the motor position on each joint.
[20:34:25] <CIA-8> nowadays we can do all this and much more directly in HAL (hint: simple adder...).
[20:34:38] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich stifles CIA
[20:34:44] <alex_joni> fenn: that thingie to replace batteries
[20:34:49] <fenn> oh..
[20:34:54] <alex_joni> bet jmkasunich would like that
[20:35:02] <jmkasunich> K`zan: was the chipped endmill carbide?
[20:35:06] <SWPadnos> you mean the high voltage ceramic battery?
[20:35:12] <alex_joni> yeah.. that one
[20:35:12] <jmkasunich> HSS is less likely to chip, unless you really abuse it
[20:35:17] <K`zan> jmkasunich: HSS
[20:35:19] <fenn> here's the patent:
[20:35:20] <fenn> http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7033406.pdf
[20:35:44] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that's a nice Cap (32F @ 3500V)
[20:35:46] <K`zan> jmkasunich: I don't think I was abusing it, not with the micro-mill :-).
[20:35:56] <jmkasunich> K`zan: did it chip while cutting, or ?
[20:35:57] <fenn> fits in a grocery bag
[20:36:10] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/halcmd.c:
[20:36:10] <CIA-8> add HAL command "setexact_for_test_suite_only" which acts as though the exact
[20:36:10] <CIA-8> requested base period was obtained.
[20:36:10] <CIA-8> Additional printf-format warning fixes
[20:36:10] <CIA-8> VS: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[20:36:10] <jmkasunich> zoiks!
[20:36:11] <K`zan> jmkasunich: I'm not sure, I *think* so...
[20:36:12] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/ (hal_lib.c hal_priv.h):
[20:36:14] <CIA-8> add HAL command "setexact_for_test_suite_only" which acts as though the exact
[20:36:16] <CIA-8> requested base period was obtained.
[20:36:18] <CIA-8> Additional printf-format warning fixes
[20:36:20] <CIA-8> VS: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[20:36:22] <jepler> argh oops
[20:36:31] <alex_joni> removed a C ?
[20:36:32] <alex_joni> ;-)
[20:36:52] <jepler> yeah apparently
[20:36:55] <SWPadnos> heh - I was thinking it was a vi command or something ;)
[20:36:56] <jmkasunich> 196 megajoules!
[20:37:05] <SWPadnos> it's beefy
[20:37:11] <K`zan> 0.013Watts :).
[20:37:15] <SWPadnos> 52.soemthing KWh
[20:37:19] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: it's CVS: --- without the C in front :)
[20:37:22] <SWPadnos> right
[20:37:51] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: for how long?
[20:38:02] <jmkasunich> why is it that really high energy caps are either very low voltage or very high voltage?
[20:38:06] <K`zan> Anywau, I was just wondering what other folks were spending on end mills, there is quite a range in price on those things.
[20:38:18] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: size?
[20:38:20] <fenn> supposedly production is stalled until they work out some 'safety and practicality issues'
[20:38:25] <jmkasunich> super caps are about 2.5V, and you have to stack a bazillion in series to get 600V or so
[20:38:38] <SWPadnos> they're using high voltage to get more energy density
[20:38:47] <jmkasunich> and this thing apparently has an individual cell voltage of 3500 V, they're stacking them in parallel
[20:39:11] <fenn> because the dielectric is 0.01mm vs your usual 0.00001mm
[20:39:18] <SWPadnos> you don't have to cahrge it to 3500V, its just that you get higher energy density if you do, and the dielectric can stand it so whynot?
[20:39:57] <jmkasunich> yeah, but its far more effective if you use it at or near rated volts
[20:39:59] <fenn> well, you do have to charge it to 3500 to get enough to run a car any significant distance
[20:40:15] <jmkasunich> charge to 600V and you only get 1/36 the energy
[20:40:19] <SWPadnos> sure
[20:40:27] <fenn> since E = 0.5*CV^2
[20:40:50] <fenn> bet you'll see a lot of hot-rodders finding the caps that dont explode when they charge them to 5000V
[20:41:17] <fenn> or whatever happens when they short
[20:41:20] <alex_joni> now you scared theatro
[20:41:25] <SWPadnos> you melt the cables, I think
[20:41:34] <fenn> he's designing a little robot
[20:41:43] <jmkasunich> nah, its over before they have time to melt
[20:41:46] <fenn> heh DanF_DrC we're just talking about eestor
[20:41:47] <SWPadnos> they specifically point out that there are no explosive/flammable components in the cell
[20:41:59] <DanF_DrC> nice
[20:42:09] <jmkasunich> just 196 megajoules..... who needs flammable components
[20:42:10] <DanF_DrC> did you post the CNN news then?
[20:42:16] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: of course.. buzzwords :D
[20:42:16] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:42:21] <fenn> nah just the patent
[20:42:26] <fenn> everything else is speculation and hogwashery
[20:42:29] <DanF_DrC> tsk tsk tsk
[20:42:36] <DanF_DrC> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE01yUYq0_M
[20:42:37] <DanF_DrC> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qDZOBQs60w
[20:42:37] <DanF_DrC> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExpEl0_5-Y
[20:42:44] <DanF_DrC> http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/technology/disruptors_eestor.biz2/index.htm
[20:42:49] <SWPadnos> lots of clean hogs with the election coming up ;)
[20:42:51] <fenn> what is all the youtube stuff?
[20:42:52] <A-L-P-H-A> logger_aj, bookmark
[20:42:52] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm feeling lazy .. but here's the log anyways:
[20:43:01] <jmkasunich> something a little less speculative: http://www.oshkoshtruckcorporation.com/about/tech_innovations~propulse.cfm
[20:43:05] <jmkasunich> ultracaps in there
[20:43:07] <DanF_DrC> worth watching
[20:43:36] <DanF_DrC> it's past speculation now. just so good people have a hard time believing it
[20:44:04] <DanF_DrC> hybrid is a distant second to pure electric
[20:44:08] <fenn> i have a hard time believing it
[20:44:14] <DanF_DrC> I said that
[20:44:49] <A-L-P-H-A> wth is this? http://www.peters-cnc-ecke.de/forumupload/uploadFiles/11086_115674027908_roboter3001.jpg
[20:45:10] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: a guy building a puma
[20:45:16] <alex_joni> puma-typed robot
[20:45:19] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: are you talking about that 32F 3500V cap?
[20:45:20] <A-L-P-H-A> why's it need so many robots?
[20:45:27] <A-L-P-H-A> robots = motors
[20:45:34] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: only 3 there
[20:45:37] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, yes
[20:45:45] <jmkasunich> how much does it weigh?
[20:45:49] <DanF_DrC> the cnn link is about it
[20:45:56] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: 300+ lbs
[20:45:58] <DanF_DrC> weighs around 400bls
[20:46:07] <DanF_DrC> some say 336lbs
[20:46:10] <jmkasunich> and it holds 52KWh
[20:46:15] <alex_joni> the patent says that
[20:46:19] <DanF_DrC> yes. size of a 14" tv
[20:46:20] <alex_joni> 336lbs
[20:46:25] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: bear with me... One end of the caps will be all tied togather - the other end will be hooked to the + power, motor out left and motor out right?
[20:46:46] <jmkasunich> so that works out to 0.34 KWh per kG
[20:46:46] <skunkworks> boy that was poor wording
[20:46:53] <DanF_DrC> the cnn link is about it. I contacted Feel Good Cars and they confirmed both the deal and the technology
[20:46:54] <jmkasunich> gasoline is 12.7 kW/kg
[20:47:09] <DanF_DrC> they visited EESTOR in texas and came back smiling
[20:47:11] <jmkasunich> which is why the all electric vehicle _isn't_ going to win against hybrid anytime soon
[20:47:27] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: no
[20:47:31] <DanF_DrC> I assure you with EESTOR the gas car will die rapidly
[20:47:34] <A-L-P-H-A> skunkworks, http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/power.JPG are you using schematics for this? or just just using the board?
[20:47:37] <jmkasunich> caps go between + and - power
[20:47:59] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: you sound like a marketing guy now
[20:48:20] <DanF_DrC> not my fault you hear it like that
[20:48:45] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: it sounds like that
[20:49:05] <DanF_DrC> I take it you didn't watch the links then
[20:49:11] <jmkasunich> splain to me how 0.34 kWh/kg can beat 12.7kWh/kg
[20:49:23] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: I read the pdf
[20:49:32] <alex_joni> and skimmed over the cnn report
[20:50:00] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, see... in a distorted reality, called upsidedown land... there once was a fairy that made things all tipsy tovy... by
[20:50:00] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: I'm not in the habit of gathering technical information from CNN
[20:50:01] <A-L-P-H-A> ...
[20:50:03] <skunkworks> A-L-P-H-A: drawing a schematic. Although I am just winging it here as you can see.
[20:50:38] <A-L-P-H-A> skunkworks, yeah... I was wondering about that... if you were etching that, you'd probably want to draw a perimeter GND signal...
[20:50:48] <DanF_DrC> simple. 4x less energy use, vastly simpler design, engine will weigh less than 70lbs and the engine compartment will be completely empty as well as the gas tank leaving plenty of weight advantage to compensate for a 150kg battery
[20:50:57] <A-L-P-H-A> skunkworks, less work the chemicals have to do, and more useful life outta the etchant.
[20:51:03] <jmkasunich> what "engine"
[20:51:09] <jmkasunich> you mean an electric motor, right?
[20:51:17] <DanF_DrC> the electric motor yes
[20:51:27] <jmkasunich> how do you figure 4x less energy use?
[20:51:36] <alex_joni> 4x less weight :D
[20:51:45] <fenn> jmkasunich: (technical question) can igbt's handle switching 3500V and is this something that would be cheap enough to do in a passenger car?
[20:51:49] <alex_joni> so that's a 300kg car
[20:51:56] <DanF_DrC> a combustion engine is around 25% efficient if things go well
[20:52:08] <DanF_DrC> larger engines are even worse
[20:52:12] <A-L-P-H-A> DanF_DrC, uh... usually far less.
[20:52:14] <jmkasunich> the highest voltage IGBTs I'm aware of are 3300V (rating), usable at about 2400V
[20:52:23] <DanF_DrC> A-L-P-H-A, only makes my point even more
[20:52:26] <bill20r3> eestor?
[20:52:37] <bill20r3> so what's thier technology based on?
[20:52:43] <DanF_DrC> any other questions?
[20:52:54] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: didn't say your point..
[20:52:54] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: more like 30%, but ok, I'll grant you that - the 12.7kWh is thermal energy, electrical energy is a better form
[20:52:57] <DanF_DrC> bill20r3, a capacitor with barium titanate as dielectric
[20:53:01] <fenn> bill20r3: a way to precipitate barium titanate grains of a uniform small size
[20:53:02] <cradek> what's this have to do with emc?
[20:53:06] <fenn> nothing
[20:53:06] <bill20r3> like a super-supercap?
[20:53:11] <fenn> * fenn blames alex_joni
[20:53:16] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, did you watch the links?
[20:53:19] <alex_joni> * alex_joni blames the weatherman
[20:53:20] <SWPadnos> there must be higher voltage electronic switches, because I've seen power supplies that go up to 4000V or more
[20:53:20] <jmkasunich> no
[20:53:25] <bill20r3> I have a few of those cooper aerogel supercaps, they're pretty impressive.
[20:53:36] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, maybe that would help you see how I'm right
[20:53:39] <DanF_DrC> just mabye
[20:53:40] <jmkasunich> I don't watch TV, I'm an engineer dammit! I read the documentation and do the math
[20:53:50] <DanF_DrC> hardly
[20:53:56] <DanF_DrC> watch the damn clips
[20:54:01] <alex_joni> hardly?
[20:54:02] <K`zan> * K`zan loves the 84 Caddy :)
[20:54:03] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: gate controlled thyristors will handle higher voltage
[20:54:34] <DanF_DrC> they will blow your mind and clean of a lot of misconceptions
[20:54:34] <jmkasunich> when I was in canada last month I saw them building 4160V AC drives
[20:54:41] <SWPadnos> ah yes - the panels do have labels like "thyristor failure" - thanks
[20:54:55] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: I don't have an audio card on this PC
[20:54:56] <DanF_DrC> -of
[20:54:59] <SWPadnos> or my favorite: "THY OVERTEMP"
[20:55:17] <DanF_DrC> unbelievable
[20:55:18] <jmkasunich> and if the video is targeted at CNN's audience, I don't see how you expect it to change my mind
[20:55:31] <DanF_DrC> wow you're obtuse
[20:55:37] <jmkasunich> no
[20:55:41] <DanF_DrC> any excuse to stay that way
[20:55:47] <jmkasunich> you can accuse me of being a snob if you want, but not obtuse
[20:56:04] <DanF_DrC> they are not by CNN you moron
[20:56:04] <fenn> * fenn sighs
[20:56:22] <fenn> DanF_DrC: if you're here because of me i'm asking you to leave
[20:56:24] <DanF_DrC> cnn is a news item. the youtubes are videoclips
[20:56:29] <jmkasunich> the utube ones?
[20:56:43] <K`zan> CNN is generally bullshit, what is the point?
[20:56:56] <jmkasunich> I'm watching the utube now
[20:57:03] <DanF_DrC> excellent
[20:57:08] <K`zan> Only what they decide not to censor...
[20:57:10] <jmkasunich> I see some guys driving around in a kitcar
[20:57:13] <jmkasunich> so what?
[20:57:47] <DanF_DrC> could you perhaps extend your attention span beyond that of a fly on fire
[20:57:52] <SWPadnos> the implication is that an electric car can have better performance than a gasoline powered car
[20:57:57] <jmkasunich> I assume its electric, and I assume the performance is impressive
[20:57:59] <jmkasunich> but so what
[20:58:07] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, exactly. will have and easily
[20:58:27] <jmkasunich> how far can it go on a charge, and how long does it take to charge, and how many street corners across the country can you charge it at?
[20:58:42] <SWPadnos> DanF_DrC, you should perhaps be more polite here - you're talking to people who are electrical engineers, and who have significant experience with motors and power systems, some very large ones
[20:58:46] <jmkasunich> those factors are what will keep it from taking over
[20:58:46] <K`zan> jmkasunich: I see you have reseached this issue..
[20:58:50] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: the time to charge is claimed to be 6 to 8 minutes
[20:58:58] <jmkasunich> peak performance is _not_ the problem for electric cars
[20:59:01] <alex_joni> for the 186 megajoule bombe
[20:59:04] <bill20r3> did everyone see that hub-motor driven mini cooper? 0-60 in 4 seconds.
[20:59:08] <A-L-P-H-A> back
[20:59:22] <SWPadnos> and I'd say that nobody here is a moron
[20:59:23] <fenn> the mini cooper is pretty lame as far as things go
[20:59:32] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: http://www.oshkoshtruckcorporation.com/about/tech_innovations~propulse.cfm
[20:59:44] <A-L-P-H-A> so... are we using EMC now to drive an electric hybrid for kicks? Cause if EMC crashes, litteral crash ensues?
[20:59:59] <SWPadnos> sure - I'd use HAL on that ;)
[21:00:02] <DanF_DrC> with the EESTOR or similar product, small standard cars will not only outperform ferraris but they will be many times more efficient and than any gas car could ever be, cheaper to build than the cheapest gas cars and can be 'refuled' in the same time as normal refueling. not to mention no polution. it will be superior to gas cars on all points
[21:00:03] <jmkasunich> I worked a little on that project, and a co-worker worked at LOT on it
[21:00:17] <DanF_DrC> -and
[21:00:28] <fenn> jmkasunich: what kind of efficiency do they get on the regenerative braking?
[21:01:06] <DanF_DrC> hybrid is crap compared to pure electric
[21:01:27] <alex_joni> lol, talk about narrowminded
[21:01:31] <SWPadnos> DanF_DrC, you have to take into account the distribution systems as well. Electrical power transmission is only about 70% efficient (IIRC), and that's after the inefficiencies of actually vgenerating power (which incidentally uses combustion engines of various types, in most cases)
[21:01:31] <A-L-P-H-A> DanF_DrC, but some places you can't get electricity, but can get gas... [mid west in some places, I would guess]
[21:02:00] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: just camp for a couple of months with a big solar panel
[21:02:04] <bill20r3> heh
[21:02:07] <DanF_DrC> hehe no electricity in the mid west? but supply might initially be a problem but easily solveable
[21:02:13] <bill20r3> "Honey, I'm going to be late, by 3 weeks"
[21:02:24] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni... oh... good idea! if I dig deep enough, I could get geo thermal energy as well!
[21:02:26] <SWPadnos> the eestor idea is to use local generation (wind, solar, geothermal) and low-current grid power (night chartging) to charge a large rack of their cells, from which cars are "refeled" in the daytime
[21:02:33] <skunkworks> A-L-P-H-A: I can't get electricity here in the mid west ? ;)
[21:02:39] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: sure.. 3 weeks should be enough to dig a deep hole
[21:02:57] <fenn> SWPadnos: i really think the charge time is a red herring
[21:03:09] <fenn> if it goes all day, who cares how long it takes to charge?
[21:03:12] <SWPadnos> do you mean impossible, or not of concern?
[21:03:16] <jmkasunich> the eestor technology is very interesting, and probably has lots of applications
[21:03:22] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, no. the eestor can be charged very rapidly as well and it's a vital advantage of it since it can then be used as a gas tank and can be refueled on the road
[21:03:29] <A-L-P-H-A> skunkworks, no. no you can't. you're not allowed. GWB said so.
[21:03:29] <SWPadnos> well, if I'm driving cross sountry, it's delaying me
[21:03:49] <jmkasunich> but to jump from there to "electric cars are going to replace hybrid and gasoline in the near future" is a bit over the top
[21:03:50] <fenn> * fenn mumbles and splutters
[21:04:04] <fenn> DanF_DrC: how exactly did you know we were talking about eestor btw?
[21:04:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders how you want to feed 186 megajoules in 6 minutes
[21:04:15] <jmkasunich> with fat wires
[21:04:27] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: how fat? quick calcs?
[21:04:28] <SWPadnos> I understand that the cell can be charged rapidly, but there's a practical limit in that you need to dump hundreds to thousands of amps into the unit to charge it that fast
[21:04:37] <fenn> 1 inch or so
[21:04:37] <DanF_DrC> fenn, I didn't. you mentioned the channel and talked about high power electrics and I took a look
[21:04:39] <jmkasunich> 52kWh in 6 mins (0.1 hours) = 520 kW
[21:04:39] <alex_joni> my guts say something like 2 feet, water cooled
[21:04:45] <jmkasunich> not that bad
[21:04:46] <fenn> nah
[21:04:48] <alex_joni> oh, smaller
[21:04:49] <fenn> its at 3500V
[21:04:50] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, but didn't you hear? oil is running out tomorrow, and the sky is falling, the only people to be saved are GWBs friends. And you're going to annex Alberta so you can harvest the oil sands for yourselves.
[21:04:55] <bill20r3> how long does it take to fill a gas tank? 5 minutes?
[21:05:03] <jmkasunich> or less
[21:05:13] <A-L-P-H-A> bill20r3, bought there.
[21:05:14] <alex_joni> bill20r3: it takes 2 minutes on mine
[21:05:16] <jmkasunich> 6 minute charge for this thing is 520kW
[21:05:17] <A-L-P-H-A> about
[21:05:22] <SWPadnos> A-L-P-H-A, we don't need no steenking oil sands - we have the Colorado shale oil deposits
[21:05:24] <alex_joni> but it's 45 liters :D
[21:05:27] <alex_joni> diesel too
[21:05:28] <bill20r3> heh
[21:05:30] <jmkasunich> my house has 100A 220V service, or 22kW
[21:05:39] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, is it being harvested?
[21:05:40] <DanF_DrC> impressive
[21:05:57] <dave_1> jmk... is that all?
[21:05:57] <SWPadnos> I guess you only need 150A or so at 3500V
[21:06:08] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich? how'd you get the electric company to wire that for you?
[21:06:12] <SWPadnos> A-L-P-H-A, nope, not until oil is really expensive - say, after the elections ;)
[21:06:27] <jmkasunich> so, the eestor "gas station" needs an electrical feed equivalent to 23 of my house
[21:06:36] <DanF_DrC> when you are home you won't need that much charging power. 'gas'stations will need a lot. ironically they can have EESTORs for quick supply
[21:06:40] <jmkasunich> granted, a lot of homes these days have 200A service
[21:06:56] <DanF_DrC> EESTOR claims to have cycled the product a million times which means ultra rapid charging
[21:06:59] <fenn> you lose a lot of power when transferring at such a high charge rate
[21:07:00] <jmkasunich> right - when at home I can charge overnight
[21:07:11] <skunkworks> * skunkworks has a 200amp service at home.
[21:07:14] <jmkasunich> but the gas station will have many customers
[21:07:15] <dave_1> and 400 A is not unheard of.
[21:07:17] <A-L-P-H-A> okay... everyone... I want to see the USA do realllllly well... go elect child molesting gay senetors, and go vote for say... Jeb Bush! or Neil Bush!...
[21:07:21] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/scripts/runtests: add the beginnings of a test suite
[21:07:21] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/tests/README: add the beginnings of a test suite
[21:07:21] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/tests/basic/ (README expected test.hal): add the beginnings of a test suite
[21:07:22] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/tests/stepgen.2/ (README checkresult test.hal): add the beginnings of a test suite
[21:07:22] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/tests/stepgen.1/ (expected test.hal): add the beginnings of a test suite
[21:07:24] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/tests/stepgen.0/ (expected test.hal): add the beginnings of a test suite
[21:07:25] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, obviously
[21:07:29] <SWPadnos> I have 200A service as well (used to have electric heat as backup)
[21:07:30] <A-L-P-H-A> write ins count don't they?
[21:07:41] <skunkworks> why does this emc stuff keep interupting us?
[21:07:47] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[21:07:48] <alex_joni> skunkworks: lol
[21:08:01] <alex_joni> jepler: stop working.. start wasting time with us
[21:08:07] <jepler> Runtest: 4 tests run, 4 successful, 0 failed
[21:08:10] <alex_joni> oh.. forgot, he's at work now :)
[21:08:12] <DanF_DrC> saving the world is hardly wasting time
[21:08:29] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, as you and I aren't american'ts. If you were, who would you vote for?
[21:08:34] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: oh, excuse me.. that's what we're doing here?
[21:08:40] <fenn> arrgggg
[21:08:41] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: EESTOR definately
[21:08:48] <cradek> fenn: haha
[21:08:51] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC convinced me
[21:08:54] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: if you think I'm some "kill the animals, drill for oil, pollute the env" person you are sadly mistaken - I am all in favor of clean energy sources
[21:08:57] <bill20r3> and here I thought we were just arguing pointlessly on the interwebs.
[21:09:05] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, that's what I'm doing, informing the masses to easy the transition
[21:09:07] <jepler> int main(void) { errno=-EESTOR; perror("wtf?"); return 1; }
[21:09:10] <DanF_DrC> ease*
[21:09:15] <jmkasunich> but people who don't do the math and have unrealistic expectations (and try to push them on others) aren't doing that cause any good
[21:09:18] <alex_joni> jepler: ROFLMAO
[21:09:28] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, you need to create a wikipedia entry for "EESTOR '08"
[21:09:31] <bill20r3> Dan, I don't think this crowd is exactly "the masses".
[21:09:54] <alex_joni> it is some masses, just not the right one to take that crap :D
[21:10:02] <alex_joni> err.. didn't mean to say that
[21:10:03] <alex_joni> :D
[21:10:09] <bill20r3> hah
[21:10:25] <alex_joni> s/crap/advertising/
[21:10:41] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: is there a prototype somewhere on the web?
[21:10:50] <DanF_DrC> bill20r3, if not masses what then. certainly not elitely informed although things changed a lot in the last few minutes
[21:11:30] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, I haven't seen any. I have inquired from Feel Good Cars if they have one but so far no answer
[21:11:33] <jmkasunich> the unfortunate physical facts are that storing and transporting energy in chemical form (gasoline) is far, far more practical than storing and transporting it in electrical form
[21:11:53] <bill20r3> I'm just saying that you dont need to convince me that electric is more efficient end-to-end.
[21:12:13] <jmkasunich> the eestore cap may be 50 times better than anything previously found (I don't think its that good, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt), but its still 50 times worse than gasoline
[21:12:38] <DanF_DrC> bill20r3, some of you grasp small parts of it but as you can see jmkasunich reverted to his previous state of ignorance
[21:13:13] <SWPadnos> DanF_DrC, you're acting like a real jerk, and I'm not to partial to that
[21:13:14] <bill20r3> danF, you're being pretty condescending, I'm not suprised people are alienated.
[21:13:22] <jepler> I've ignored DanF_DrC and I ask all of you to consider doing the same.
[21:13:22] <jmkasunich> so far, you are the one making unsupported statements, and I'm the one that has done the math and showed you the numbers
[21:13:24] <DanF_DrC> a not obtuse person would look at the small ford smart killing the ferrari and know something was up
[21:13:40] <bill20r3> your message is unimportant if people hate you.
[21:13:52] <jmkasunich> electric has better peak power than gasoline - I don't doubt that
[21:13:54] <DanF_DrC> bill20r3, I am being very frank yes
[21:13:58] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is off to find some 200-500v 22uf caps. ;)
[21:14:13] <jmkasunich> re: the oshkosh truck that I worked on climbing a 60 degree grade
[21:14:15] <SWPadnos> the message is unimportant anyway - it's what people wo with the possibilities that matters
[21:14:16] <alex_joni> skunkworks: that's the spirit
[21:14:26] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/Makefile: the quoting I removed prevented 'CC=distcc gcc' from working properly.
[21:14:31] <alex_joni> skunkworks: build one yourself
[21:14:36] <bill20r3> call it what you will.
[21:14:43] <SWPadnos> s/wo/do/
[21:14:43] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, what could they do with it without the message
[21:14:46] <skunkworks> I may be cheap - but I am not that cheap.
[21:14:56] <DanF_DrC> I assure you that information is more powerful than you can imagine
[21:14:57] <skunkworks> suprisingly
[21:14:58] <alex_joni> skunkworks: ;-)
[21:15:05] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/sim_common.h: rtapi messages should go to stderr, otherwise they interfere with the test suite
[21:15:12] <SWPadnos> we can do nothing with it, because we're not in a position to design cars or other devices with the technology
[21:15:22] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/sim_rtapi.c: duh, use rtapi_print_msg, not printf
[21:16:22] <SWPadnos> and even if the technology exists and is all that they claim (which I certainly hope for), the way the world (and especially the US) works won't reward good products or good intentions if the powers that be don't want it to happen
[21:16:32] <cradek> jepler: what's the command for ignoring a user in irssi?
[21:16:34] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: now don't go there
[21:16:40] <jepler> cradek: /ignore DanF_DrC
[21:16:45] <cradek> oh, duh
[21:16:49] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:16:49] <jmkasunich> the "its great, but the powers that be are suppressing it"
[21:16:54] <alex_joni> hmm.. there was another nicer command
[21:17:13] <jmkasunich> money will out - if there is a way to make a car that is less expensive to build/operate, it _will_ happen
[21:17:14] <SWPadnos> I'm just pointing out that there is little we can do if that comes to pass, so we just need to wait and see what happens
[21:17:16] <cradek> wish irssi could tell what else is part of the conversation
[21:17:23] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, also wrong. you could inform various people in power of your desire for this technology. evil in the white house only thrive if the populace sleep. also you can buy them now and thus support the development enormously. small shops do conversions for relatively affordable prices. kits from 8k$
[21:17:30] <jmkasunich> the reason it hasn;t happened yet is that it isn't possible yet
[21:17:58] <jmkasunich> the company I work for spent a pile of money working on a drive that was intended for pure electric and/or hybrid cars
[21:18:14] <jmkasunich> but no takers - because the cars just can't deliver what people want at a price they can afford
[21:18:31] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, that's untrue. I have seen designs of more efficient gasoline engines (easier to produce as well), which have stagnated, not due to the economics of their designs
[21:18:52] <jmkasunich> barrier to entry?
[21:18:57] <SWPadnos> could be
[21:19:05] <alex_joni> "By 2000, the co-founders were ready to build a prototype. It's difficult to say how far EEStor's ultracap technology has evolved since, but sources close to the firm say a working prototype has been built and a production line is now creating prototypes on a batch basis, in preparation for volume production."
[21:19:11] <alex_joni> heh.. only 6 years later :)
[21:19:14] <cradek> SWPadnos: I wanted to buy a diesel volkswagen for the added fuel economy, but couldn't find one
[21:19:20] <DanF_DrC> the documentary 'who killed the electric car' will show you the error of that view as well jmkasunich. it's available on thepiratebay.org btw
[21:19:35] <alex_joni> cradek: eek.. no diesel?
[21:19:38] <alex_joni> come to europe :)
[21:19:45] <cradek> I know; they're rare here
[21:20:13] <skunkworks> we just bought a corola - 41mpg
[21:20:14] <SWPadnos> but a gasoline engine with 8 parts, that's more efficient than a standard engine, should have been embraced by the industry (unless it didn't end up working all that well, which also could be - I haven't heard about it since it was in Popular Mechanics in the early '80s)
[21:20:36] <jmkasunich> seems like the real market for eestore is stationary - enterprise scale UPS and such like htat
[21:20:37] <jmkasunich> that
[21:20:49] <jmkasunich> I shudder at the thought of a medium voltage system in a car
[21:21:09] <jmkasunich> PM liked the wankel too
[21:21:09] <DanF_DrC> skunkworks, electrics are well past 100MPG equivalent
[21:21:19] <SWPadnos> well, electric has the advantage of being compatible with many forms of generation, unlike gasoline (or other chemical transportation/storage means)
[21:21:32] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: how do you compute "MPG equivalent"?
[21:21:43] <SWPadnos> $/mile, no doubt
[21:21:56] <jmkasunich> burn the gasoline at a powerplant at maybe 40% efficiency, then send it to an electric car
[21:22:12] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/scripts/realtime.in: improvements for simulator-mode
[21:22:22] <jmkasunich> I admit it will beat burning it in an internal combustion engine at 25%, but not 100mpg
[21:22:41] <SWPadnos> that was my earlier point - if you generate electricity via combustion, then lose another 30% or more in transmission, it doesn't matter how efficient your storage or motor are, you're not winning
[21:22:47] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, you gotta wonder how they achieve 1cent/mile then
[21:22:48] <fenn> er.. but we dont burn gasoline in power plants
[21:22:50] <jepler> now go ye forth and write some tests
[21:23:01] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: easy, they don't calculate all the hidden costs ;-)
[21:23:10] <SWPadnos> ain't that the truth
[21:23:25] <alex_joni> fenn: what else?
[21:23:34] <jmkasunich> fenn: he started throwing around "MPG equivalent", so I asked for a definition of that term
[21:23:38] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, try to avoid joking about your ignorance. pretty sure the electric company will get all the hidden costs on your electric bill
[21:23:54] <SWPadnos> man, you really are an idiot, aren't you
[21:24:18] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: shh... that was supposed to be a secret
[21:24:21] <SWPadnos> and no, I'm not talking to jmkasunich
[21:24:24] <fenn> he just has a poorly calibrated medulla oblongata
[21:24:24] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:24:25] <cradek> ok everyone, why not take jepler's advice?
[21:24:38] <SWPadnos> indeed. let's see if it works in chatzilla
[21:24:41] <DanF_DrC> I'm frank and curt if that's what you mean
[21:24:42] <jmkasunich> because we're stupid
[21:24:52] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is still waiting for the 300mpg carberator that the big oil companies quieted.
[21:24:55] <jmkasunich> so, how many miles does that car go on one charge?
[21:24:59] <SWPadnos> 500
[21:25:04] <cradek> well quit being stupid
[21:25:15] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, which one?
[21:25:19] <SWPadnos> heh - sometimes a debate can be refreshing also ;)
[21:25:34] <jmkasunich> the one that uses the eestor thing
[21:25:47] <DanF_DrC> the tesla does 250miles per charge. the EESTOR promised to make 500mile range affordable
[21:25:54] <DanF_DrC> promises*
[21:25:57] <SWPadnos> 500 miles on a $9 charge, from the article I read
[21:26:06] <DanF_DrC> no car uses EESTOR yet
[21:26:21] <jmkasunich> so the car in the videos has nothing to do with eestor?
[21:26:31] <DanF_DrC> those with longest range use lithium ion
[21:26:33] <skunkworks> bbl have fun :)
[21:26:34] <jmkasunich> yet looking at the video is supposed to make me a true believer
[21:26:44] <DanF_DrC> sigh
[21:26:56] <jmkasunich> ok, lets talk li-ion then
[21:27:04] <jmkasunich> what is the price of the battery pack?
[21:27:12] <DanF_DrC> the EESTOR have longer range, more power, lower weight and vastly cheaper than the ones in the video clips
[21:27:26] <jmkasunich> divide that by the number of charges - thats one of the hidden costs
[21:27:29] <DanF_DrC> li ion is very expensive
[21:27:29] <SWPadnos> I think the religion here is that electric is better than gasoline or hybrid, which nobody has objected to on technical grounds
[21:27:30] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: then come back with EESTOR videoclips
[21:27:47] <DanF_DrC> sigh
[21:27:49] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: you hit it on the nose
[21:27:52] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: no objection to that..
[21:28:08] <jmkasunich> religion - things that we believe with no ability to either prove or disprove
[21:28:24] <jmkasunich> and that we often try to convince others to believe as well, much to their annoyance
[21:28:25] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, then wtf is jmkasunich doing if not objecting
[21:28:46] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: beeing realistic?
[21:28:53] <alex_joni> and he didn't object to electricity
[21:28:58] <SWPadnos> well, you've got to admit that there are advantages to running an electric motor: exceedingly high torque at all speed ranges, high efficiency, and also the ability to do regenerative braking
[21:29:07] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, bs and a lie
[21:29:35] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: how so?
[21:29:54] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, how about simple design avoiding almost all of the drive components of a gas car and all their maintenance
[21:30:01] <SWPadnos> he's not objecting to the concept of electrics being good, he's pointing out that there are (a) hidden costs to energy generation and transmission, and (b) economic realities of electric power distribution for cars
[21:30:16] <jmkasunich> I do admit that electric motors have advantages over gas engines - full torque at zero speed, wide power band, higher efficiency (assuming you've already converted "raw" energy into electricity)
[21:30:39] <SWPadnos> also (c) economic realities with economies of scale, etc. in making electric car usage widespread
[21:30:55] <DanF_DrC> the advantages are fantastic and once we have something like EESTOR and 'gasstations' there is not a single disadvantage anymore
[21:31:05] <jmkasunich> I work for a company that makes electric motors and drives, and there is nothing they would like more than to be able to sell millions of motors and drives in cars
[21:31:07] <alex_joni> the key there beeing "once"
[21:31:12] <SWPadnos> actually, you're better off with a trasnmission even with an electric car (or more than one motor)
[21:31:16] <jmkasunich> the potential size of that market makes everything else we do look tiny
[21:31:38] <jmkasunich> don't you think their greed for that market has them looking at every possibility?
[21:32:16] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: the electric garbage truck I'm involved in right now has a two speed gearbox
[21:32:23] <SWPadnos> on a side note, this is a funny excerpt from my ISP: "A number of servers unfortunately were under water and severely damaged."
[21:32:37] <jmkasunich> low for stop-n-go making pickups, high for the highway to the landfill
[21:32:43] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, then tell them to get ready because they will have the chance. but they will have to be a lot less mentally stagnant than you have been here today or they will certainly miss out completely. the world is filled with 'we've done this mindlessly for 50 years and there is not way our mindlessness can be beaten'
[21:33:05] <DanF_DrC> no*
[21:33:11] <jmkasunich> why are you accusing me of being mindless - I'm the one who has done the math
[21:33:20] <SWPadnos> well, you also need to think about wire gauge and inertia - efficient high speed operation and high torque are somewhat incompatible
[21:33:20] <jmkasunich> when the math works out, I'll be the first in line
[21:33:28] <DanF_DrC> gag
[21:33:38] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: I really suggest to try to abstain from pointless insults while in here
[21:33:57] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: we're doing a _lot_ of work on getting a very wide constant power range from the motor
[21:34:04] <anonimasu> jmk you design inverters right?
[21:34:07] <anonimasu> you ought to know ;)
[21:34:15] <jmkasunich> 160HP motor, rated power from 3000 to 12000 rpm
[21:34:28] <SWPadnos> well, just the fact that you need heavier gauge wire for high torque, but you also need high voltage for high speed, makes it a challenge
[21:34:36] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, I'm trying to give some of you a chance despite violent obtuseness. if you know of a better way to reach people do tell
[21:34:47] <SWPadnos> unless you dynamically switch coils around
[21:34:53] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: you are assuming constant flux
[21:35:09] <jmkasunich> if you weaken the flux at high speed, its kind of like a transmission
[21:35:10] <SWPadnos> I suppose I am
[21:35:13] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: maybe you talked with the wrong kind of people before. in here only solid arguments can make someone change his mind
[21:35:23] <SWPadnos> ok, so a variable field kind of thing?
[21:35:29] <jmkasunich> yes
[21:35:33] <SWPadnos> ah
[21:35:43] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, I have talked to many and that's not even close to true
[21:35:51] <alex_joni> many in here?
[21:35:53] <jmkasunich> thats the tricky part - getting a variable field from a permanent magnet motor
[21:35:57] <alex_joni> I somehow doubt that
[21:35:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:36:13] <jmkasunich> basically the drive generates a field that opposes the magnet field at high speeds
[21:36:14] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, no the people talking here now. many elsewhere
[21:36:35] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: somehow we don't quite resemble people in #jesus and ##ufo
[21:36:51] <DanF_DrC> I wouldn't have guessed
[21:37:18] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: so far I have heard not a single cold hard number from you
[21:37:21] <DanF_DrC> and your rationality neglected mentioning the other channels right
[21:37:33] <SWPadnos> DanF_DrC, let me say this: I'm really excited about the eestore device, and I hope it lives up to the hype. If it does, then it may skew the economics of electric vehicles vs. gasoline. There are other issues to contend with, such as "where does the electricity come from in the first place", and "how do I get it into my car"
[21:37:43] <jmkasunich> my immediate reaction to _any_ claim is to question it
[21:37:47] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: bet you got kicked from the others at one point in time
[21:37:48] <fenn> the guys in #ai are more religious than the ones in #jesus i bet
[21:37:56] <jmkasunich> and the person making the claim has the burden of proving it
[21:38:22] <alex_joni> fenn: point taken.. it is so :)
[21:38:23] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, I have been banned from more than one channel before. never for being wrong though
[21:38:31] <jmkasunich> lol
[21:38:36] <fenn> just for being annoying
[21:38:40] <alex_joni> lol
[21:39:04] <SWPadnos> then you have to go beyond those primary questions to secondary issues: is the total efficiency and environmental impact of the proposed energy distribution system significantly better than the gasoline economy we have now?
[21:39:15] <jmkasunich> exactly
[21:39:19] <DanF_DrC> usually for offending sensitivities of the willfully obtuse. annoyance is often the mindless excuse word used yes
[21:39:21] <jmkasunich> back to those hidden costs I was talking about
[21:39:47] <SWPadnos> there are related topics regarding manufacture and disposal of these things
[21:40:01] <jmkasunich> the 3500V issue is also a complication
[21:40:03] <SWPadnos> I suggest you read the book "Cradle to Cradle" (actually, everyone should read it)
[21:40:14] <jmkasunich> something in the 600V range would be more practical
[21:40:15] <fenn> barium titanate isnt exactly toxic
[21:40:46] <jmkasunich> although the firemen that need to pry people out of crashed cars aren't even very happy about hybrids with their 300V electrical systems
[21:40:47] <DanF_DrC> precisely. but anything to avoid admission
[21:40:53] <DanF_DrC> fenn
[21:41:05] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: exactly what the fsck do you want me to admit?
[21:41:18] <DanF_DrC> how did you know I meant you
[21:41:25] <SWPadnos> so, what you have here is a bunch of people who (for the most part) like the idea, but are skeptical, as any good scientific mind should be
[21:41:28] <fenn> * fenn has been wondering the same thing
[21:41:35] <fenn> you're right DanF_DrC
[21:41:38] <jmkasunich> because a significant fraction of your insults have been aimed at me
[21:41:38] <fenn> you're right
[21:42:03] <DanF_DrC> simply pause for a second and see that on all counts the electric is now winning. EESTOR being the last disadvantage
[21:42:27] <SWPadnos> if you think it's the last disadvantage, you need to do more research into power generation and transmission
[21:42:29] <jmkasunich> tell you what - come back in N years, where N is your choice (as long as its less than 10)
[21:42:30] <DanF_DrC> fenn, do you mean that?
[21:42:39] <DanF_DrC> or is it some sarcasm
[21:43:07] <jmkasunich> if more than 20% of the cars on the road are pure electric, I'll bow in your general direction and admit that I'm a closed minded idiot
[21:43:21] <DanF_DrC> SWPadnos, the fact that we need infrastructure to match the new power demand is not a disadvantage
[21:43:34] <jmkasunich> its not?
[21:43:35] <DanF_DrC> it can happen as electric car happen
[21:43:38] <DanF_DrC> no it's not
[21:43:42] <DanF_DrC> cars
[21:44:13] <fenn> i dont really think electric cars would be such a huge drain on the grid
[21:44:20] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, so logged. but I thought you had done the math
[21:44:28] <SWPadnos> no, it can't. to be viable in the marketplace (which has nothing to do with physics), there needs to be a widespread distribution system compatible with the cars or they're not useful
[21:44:53] <fenn> my space heater uses 33kWh
[21:44:56] <fenn> per day
[21:45:01] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: I did do the math, which is why I'm not very worried about having to keep that promise
[21:45:06] <DanF_DrC> fenn, they will. energy use in cars is 4 times that of the electric grid at least here in denmark. reduction by a factor of 4 wil help but still a doubling of power use
[21:45:20] <DanF_DrC> fenn, WOOT :)
[21:45:27] <DanF_DrC> 33kWh per day. dang
[21:45:36] <fenn> yep they are nasty things
[21:45:43] <fenn> i bet the hot water heater uses twice that
[21:45:51] <jmkasunich> doubling of the electrical usage? and you don't see that as a big obstacle?
[21:46:07] <alex_joni> heh.. you should go out more
[21:46:24] <DanF_DrC> it won't happen over night so no jmkasunich. it will be slow because of willfull obtuseness like what you have chosen so far
[21:46:24] <alex_joni> did you guys know how sever the electric system is limited in italy?
[21:46:55] <jmkasunich> you continue to insult me, and I still talk to you... I guess I am an idiot
[21:46:57] <alex_joni> they run it about 80%+ right now.. so it's quite a problem there
[21:47:01] <jmkasunich> just not for the reasons you think
[21:47:06] <DanF_DrC> :)
[21:48:03] <jmkasunich> someday the gas car _will_ be replaced by something better
[21:48:22] <DanF_DrC> it will happen so rapidly that even you can remember how you erred today
[21:48:23] <jmkasunich> but in the near term (less than 20 years), I'd be more inclined to bet on hybrid, or fuel cell
[21:49:03] <fenn> ok well this convo's about petered out
[21:49:13] <DanF_DrC> should EESTOR be 'intercepted' it will happen slower. if EESTOR comes to pass in 2007 it will be very very rapid
[21:49:15] <fenn> everyone go have a beer or lemonade
[21:49:17] <jmkasunich> IF the operating voltage of the EESTOR can be reduced to 600V or so, I bet it will play a big role in either hybrid or fuel cell cars, by handling peak loads and keeping the prime mover small
[21:49:27] <DanF_DrC> I'd say more than 50% of cars by 2016
[21:49:48] <DanF_DrC> fuel cells will never come to be
[21:49:50] <jmkasunich> 50% on the road? or 50% of new car sales?
[21:49:59] <DanF_DrC> on the road
[21:50:01] <anonimasu> DanF_DrC: how can you be so sure?
[21:50:15] <jmkasunich> never - no technology takes over that fast
[21:50:39] <DanF_DrC> the fact that we are running out of gas will not hurt the speed
[21:50:50] <jmkasunich> why do you say pure electric will win over fuel cells? (please, facts only)
[21:50:57] <bill20r3> * bill20r3 cant believen someone hasn't been kicked yet.
[21:51:10] <jmkasunich> we are rather civil here, even to people who aren't
[21:51:20] <bill20r3> quite.
[21:51:56] <jmkasunich> fuel cell vs pure electric:
[21:52:00] <jmkasunich> motor and drive: identical
[21:52:05] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: because electric is c00l3r
[21:52:12] <DanF_DrC> fuel cells cannot be bought today. the documentary 'who killed the electric car' has interview with a toyota fuel cell representative stating in no uncertain terms that fuel cells are many years out and even then hydrogen would have unsurmountable obstacles remaining
[21:52:30] <DanF_DrC> electric cars have been used since 1996 despite GM's best effort to kill it
[21:52:45] <jmkasunich> eestor cannot be bought today either
[21:52:59] <DanF_DrC> the docu is available on thepiratebay.org as a bittorrent should any of you want to be informed
[21:53:27] <jmkasunich> I have a question: why is all of your supporting documentation in the form of television?
[21:53:28] <anonimasu> DanF_DrC: discovery says that they are close to perfecting fuel cell tech within the nearest 2 years..
[21:53:42] <anonimasu> DanF_DrC: so, what is right and what is wrong?
[21:53:50] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, true but electric cars still exist as you should know. EESTOR is just the last hurdle at which point the electric beats all
[21:54:25] <jmkasunich> hybrids outnumber pure electrics by 100:1 or so right now, and gas outnumbers hybrids by about the same amount
[21:54:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> don't underestimate the layman who will be fscking stupid and not accept anything under 250bhp
[21:54:42] <bill20r3> probablly more.
[21:54:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> at least untill gas is prohibitivly expensive
[21:55:04] <jmkasunich> the fact that pure electrics exist in tiny quantities now is meaningless when you are claiming 50% adoption in 10 years
[21:55:09] <bill20r3> I think the fuel cell is a ruse and it's just a fancy battery.
[21:55:15] <bill20r3> but that's just IMO
[21:55:23] <DanF_DrC> anonimasu, only you can answer that by looking. I'm certain. hydrogen has 4 other killer problems beside that 1. storage, price, availability of fuel and I forget the other
[21:55:27] <jmkasunich> bill20r3: fuel cells have much higher density than batteries
[21:55:43] <bill20r3> that's the "fancy" part. :-)
[21:55:46] <DanF_DrC> wrong. hydrogen sucks to store
[21:55:46] <anonimasu> DanF_DrC: they were talking about generating it off some plants..
[21:55:49] <jmkasunich> because the energy is in the fuel, not the battery
[21:56:00] <DanF_DrC> anonimasu, I'm sure they were
[21:56:07] <jmkasunich> DanF_DrC: hydrogen isn't the only fuel that fuel cells can use
[21:56:24] <DanF_DrC> hydrogen is the only fuel they have even come close to using
[21:56:25] <jmkasunich> I've seen firsthand fuel cells that run on methane (natural gas)
[21:56:33] <alex_joni> hydrogen has a problem with availability?
[21:56:42] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, yes
[21:56:55] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, super high temperature that extracts the hydrogen?
[21:56:56] <jmkasunich> 300kW and 1.2MW stationary fuel cell power plants, available and operating today
[21:57:10] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, what efficiency and how applicable to cars?
[21:57:16] <DanF_DrC> nuff said
[21:57:30] <jmkasunich> http://www.fce.com/
[21:57:33] <jmkasunich> not cars
[21:57:43] <DanF_DrC> hydrogen is a switch and bait lie sold to you to keep sleeing while running gas
[21:57:51] <alex_joni> hmm.. frappr changed from google maps to yahoo maps
[21:57:51] <DanF_DrC> sleeping*
[21:58:12] <DanF_DrC> electric. electric
[21:58:17] <alex_joni> I thought hydrogen is a gas?
[21:58:23] <alex_joni> so many things I learn today
[21:58:36] <jmkasunich> electric, electric - someday
[21:58:36] <DanF_DrC> doesn't look like it from here
[21:59:01] <jmkasunich> seriously tho, the eestore folks need to get the voltage down
[21:59:09] <DanF_DrC> wrong again
[21:59:31] <bill20r3> Dan, not your day to make new friends, huh?
[21:59:32] <jmkasunich> tell me, where are you gonna get a 3500V motor that fits in a car?
[21:59:54] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: you'll get 20 motors.. and run them series
[22:00:11] <DanF_DrC> bill20r3, I'm not here to blow you guys. I'm here with a cold shower to clean your minds. a lot needs to be done so forgive me for not bedding you down first
[22:00:14] <fenn> alex_joni: that's the best idea i've heard all year
[22:00:44] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: you're set to change the world aren't you?
[22:00:49] <DanF_DrC> very
[22:00:54] <alex_joni> not much different than a japanese kamikaze
[22:01:01] <jmkasunich> yet he can't answer a simple technical question
[22:01:04] <jmkasunich> tell me, where are you gonna get a 3500V motor that fits in a car?
[22:01:08] <alex_joni> lots of smoke / dust .. no difference
[22:01:24] <bill20r3> DanF, that works fine if you have a captive audience.
[22:01:31] <jmkasunich> and a gullible one
[22:02:05] <bill20r3> well, if people dont have to listen, first you have to convince them to listen, the actual message is irrelevant until that happens.
[22:02:06] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, I don't have to. I leave that to the few competent people working on it
[22:02:16] <alex_joni> and as usual yahoo's way of doing things is worse than google's .. so much for i18n : K&ouml;nigshofen im Grabfeld,
[22:02:25] <jmkasunich> do you have _any_ technical knowledge in this field?
[22:02:30] <jmkasunich> or are you strictly a preacher?
[22:03:12] <cradek> haha
[22:03:13] <DanF_DrC> I'm not exactly a dummy which allows me to observe simple facts like a ford smart creaming a ferrari
[22:03:25] <jmkasunich> I make my living working with motors and drives in approximately the power range needed for cars - I know the tradeoffs, and 3500V is _not_ a good voltage for power systems at that level for many reasons
[22:03:29] <cradek> * cradek resists the urge to unignore him to ask him to recite ohm's law
[22:03:39] <alex_joni> cradek: lol
[22:03:40] <jmkasunich> the same power density at 600V and we'd be jumping on it in an instant
[22:03:40] <DanF_DrC> I seek info and I retell it. very high quality info too
[22:03:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: ohms model! ( ;) )
[22:03:53] <alex_joni> yeah.. CNN .. goody :)
[22:04:03] <DanF_DrC> the effect of which is not underestimated by me
[22:04:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (sorry, we have a prof. at school that is very picky with that)
[22:04:12] <DanF_DrC> the world is changed by the few
[22:04:15] <jmkasunich> that oshkosh truck that I posted before uses a whole crapload of ultracaps, and a eestore at 600V or so would be _incredibly_ attractive to us
[22:04:26] <cradek> you guys have now fed the troll for 1.5 hours
[22:04:27] <bill20r3> * bill20r3 buys cooper stock.
[22:04:33] <bill20r3> no kidding cradek.
[22:04:53] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, are you saying you are very excited by the obviously super cool EESTOR?
[22:04:58] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: this might come as a shocking surprise to you, as harsh as it sounds, you won't be one of those few changing the world
[22:05:03] <jmkasunich> not at 3500V I'm not
[22:05:10] <DanF_DrC> alex_joni, how would you know
[22:05:35] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: it's written in my genes
[22:05:38] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, doesn't electronics exist to power 3500v motors?
[22:05:59] <jmkasunich> yes, but it is very expensive
[22:06:05] <DanF_DrC> or perhaps harness 3500v for a 350v motor
[22:06:14] <jmkasunich> usually you don't go to that voltage until you are at 1000HP or more
[22:06:20] <alex_joni> heh.. yeah .. use a transforme :)
[22:06:24] <alex_joni> transformer
[22:06:27] <jmkasunich> its also very bulky
[22:06:35] <jmkasunich> transformers work on AC, the eestor is DC
[22:06:36] <alex_joni> 10:1 DC transformer :D
[22:06:45] <jmkasunich> so you need some power electronics to convert the DC to AC
[22:06:49] <jmkasunich> which _can_ be done
[22:07:02] <jmkasunich> but the high voltage makes it expensive and large
[22:07:08] <alex_joni> yeah, but you probably want sine-wave to have less transformer losses
[22:07:17] <alex_joni> so that makes it even more problematic
[22:07:27] <jmkasunich> nah, use square wave - its just a big switching power supply
[22:07:35] <DanF_DrC> oh ye of little faith
[22:07:49] <jmkasunich> if the transformer runs at several KHz it will be a lot smaller than at 60Hz
[22:07:59] <jmkasunich> faith doesn't solve engineering problems
[22:08:08] <jmkasunich> and I think that is the key problem in this conversation
[22:08:35] <DanF_DrC> yeah couldn't be irrational naysayers
[22:08:55] <DanF_DrC> that would a novel concept and all
[22:09:15] <DanF_DrC> Lord Kelvin once said heavier than air flight is impossible
[22:09:34] <DanF_DrC> obtuseness is by choice and very popular
[22:09:37] <DanF_DrC> bbl
[22:09:41] <jmkasunich> let me get this straight - you don't actually understand any of the technological problems here (or you are simply unwilling to discuss them rationally)
[22:09:53] <jmkasunich> and you are calling _us_ irrational?
[22:10:23] <bill20r3> Dan, I know a book that will help you with this, let me find a link.
[22:10:31] <jmkasunich> I'm perfectly willing to talk in any level of detail about what is needed to convert 3500V to 300V
[22:11:12] <bill20r3> DanF: http://tinyurl.com/pmeek
[22:11:36] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: how expensive would be such a car motor (presuming it works at 600V, and all the rest is resolved?)
[22:11:54] <alex_joni> I'd need about 90 HP or equivalent
[22:11:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmk: how much of a PITA is it to go 3500 -> 300-ish?
[22:12:25] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: prices is the one thing I'm least qualified to talk about
[22:12:43] <jmkasunich> it depends on how special it is, and how many you want to buy
[22:12:51] <alex_joni> hmm.. 90 HP is about 67 kW .. right?
[22:12:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 90hp?
[22:13:06] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: yeah, a common car over here
[22:13:13] <jmkasunich> a vanilla 100HP 480V 50/60Hz 3phase motor is probably under $1000
[22:13:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you woudln't *need* that much in reality
[22:13:22] <fenn> wow
[22:13:23] <jmkasunich> maybe well under
[22:13:42] <fenn> alex_joni: you only need like 20kW continuous
[22:13:49] <jmkasunich> thats an industrial motor, designed to deliver 100HP 24/7/365 for years
[22:13:50] <alex_joni> hmm.. the motors we use on robots, are 3.2kW, 600V
[22:13:59] <alex_joni> priced at 2-3kEUR
[22:14:06] <fenn> unless you are towing trailers up mountains
[22:14:08] <jmkasunich> a special purpose car motor would have a much lower continuous rating, but 100HP or better peak
[22:14:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[22:14:28] <fenn> this iis why i was asking about switched reluctance motors
[22:14:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe around 10-15kW contin?
[22:14:47] <jmkasunich> it would be higher tech for low weight and wide speed range, so the $/lb would be higher
[22:14:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if you actually do make it aerodynamic
[22:14:53] <jmkasunich> but the actual size would be lower
[22:15:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and not leave the bottom for example extremely rough
[22:15:23] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: not fair comparing vanilla 50/60Hz motors with servo motors
[22:15:54] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: would a vanilla motor be suitable to drive a car?
[22:15:58] <jmkasunich> no
[22:16:01] <jmkasunich> too heavy
[22:16:15] <alex_joni> then I guess something more servolike is needed :)
[22:16:20] <alex_joni> low inertia
[22:16:20] <jmkasunich> no more than a 2:1 or 3:1 constant power range
[22:16:54] <jmkasunich> the trash truck motor I was talking about is physically about the size of a vanilla 30-40HP
[22:17:09] <jmkasunich> but it can deliver 160HP, over a 4:1 speed range (tops out at 12000RPM)
[22:17:27] <DanF_DrC> jmkasunich, how heavy is such a vanilla motor?
[22:17:41] <jmkasunich> lot more expensive than a vanilla motor tho - permanent magnet rotor, high speed bearings with oil mist lube and a circulating oil system, etc
[22:18:05] <jmkasunich> 30-40HP?
[22:18:15] <jmkasunich> maybe 300 lbs?
[22:18:20] <DanF_DrC> the 100HP 480v motor you mentioned
[22:18:25] <DanF_DrC> damn
[22:18:36] <jmkasunich> industrial motors are build like brick shithouses
[22:18:44] <DanF_DrC> the tesla 170kW is 70lbs
[22:18:52] <jmkasunich> high speed probably
[22:18:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> bah, enough troll for today. 'night folks
[22:19:19] <alex_joni> night LH
[22:19:24] <jmkasunich> speed * torque = power, and size/weight mostly is determined by torque
[22:19:25] <bill20r3> night.
[22:20:02] <jmkasunich> so a 30HP 1800 RPM motor and a 300HP 18000 RPM motor are the same torque, and _approximately_ the same size, assuming similar technology
[22:20:37] <jmkasunich> the 1800 RPM one will last longer though ;-)
[22:20:58] <DanF_DrC> some are cast iron. some are better
[22:21:06] <jmkasunich> industrial are cast iron
[22:21:10] <jmkasunich> better is in the eye of the beholder
[22:21:16] <jmkasunich> in a car, weight is bad
[22:21:22] <DanF_DrC> certainly
[22:21:22] <jmkasunich> in an industrial plant, its not
[22:21:46] <jmkasunich> cast iron industrial induction motors are heavy, rugged, and inexpensive
[22:21:47] <DanF_DrC> I think it is. people just get used to the klumsy design and miss out of hte advantages of improvement
[22:22:10] <DanF_DrC> 'inexpensive'
[22:22:38] <DanF_DrC> doing it right often pays off quite quickly. stagnation does not
[22:23:17] <jmkasunich> industrial motor: http://www.reliance.com/Products_motors/calibre.html
[22:23:44] <bill20r3> perhaps The Illuminati are killing electric cars.
[22:23:52] <jmkasunich> that must be it
[22:23:55] <DanF_DrC> no good. let me see if I can find a picture of the motor used in the tesla
[22:24:19] <jmkasunich> I know thats no good for a car - never said it was
[22:24:25] <DanF_DrC> I'll also find the link for the docu who killed the electric car
[22:24:29] <jmkasunich> just letting you know what an industrial motor looks like
[22:24:33] <bill20r3> it whas the Illuminati
[22:24:36] <bill20r3> 'was'
[22:24:56] <DanF_DrC> http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3525899/Who.Killed.The.Electric.Car.FS.DVD.SCREENER.LIMITED.XViD-PUKKA
[22:25:47] <alex_joni> http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/performance.php
[22:27:05] <alex_joni> "3-phase, 4-pole electric motor, 248hp peak (185kW), redline 13,500 rpm, regenerative "engine braking""
[22:27:11] <alex_joni> all they say about the motor
[22:27:46] <alex_joni> oh, and don't forget the Tesla is on sale this week
[22:27:46] <DanF_DrC> http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=c860df3ccf66c83fb61bb2ffd934330b.889183
[22:27:53] <alex_joni> $100.000 / piece
[22:28:00] <alex_joni> but they're selling out quick
[22:28:20] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC: no offence, don't you ever read stuff?
[22:28:42] <DanF_DrC> the price is mostly due to lithium ion cost
[22:28:59] <fenn> lol "We have checked your operating system: It does not meet our minimum requirements. If you are having difficulties, please upgrade or switch your operating system.
[22:28:59] <fenn> "
[22:29:02] <jmkasunich> those motor specs are only slightly higher (peak HP) than the garbage truck motor
[22:29:06] <DanF_DrC> I try to choose the most efficient communication medium. video is great. I read if I have to
[22:29:29] <DanF_DrC> fenn, sound advice
[22:29:55] <alex_joni> what? Mac OSX not good enough?
[22:30:07] <fenn> if they'd just give me the damn file it would play fine
[22:30:07] <DanF_DrC> no but I think he runs even worse
[22:30:23] <alex_joni> worse?
[22:30:24] <fenn> its fedora 3
[22:30:29] <alex_joni> oh, phew..
[22:30:32] <fenn> i'll admit it's pretty bad
[22:30:38] <alex_joni> thought you touched the m$ shit
[22:31:20] <dave_1> OK... I think I got a good build...
[22:31:25] <DanF_DrC> I'm all for free software though. but I do use windows to avoid all these 'I can't because I need a new disto bla bla bla' endless excuses
[22:31:29] <alex_joni> dave_1: good
[22:31:31] <DanF_DrC> distro*
[22:31:45] <dave_1> Compiling realtime emc/motion/emcmotglb.c
[22:31:46] <dave_1> Compiling realtime emc/motion/emcmotutil.c
[22:31:46] <dave_1> Compiling realtime libnml/posemath/_posemath.c
[22:31:46] <dave_1> Compiling realtime libnml/posemath/sincos.c
[22:31:46] <dave_1> Linking ../rtlib/motmod.so
[22:32:24] <dave_1> that last line IS the last line from make
[22:32:41] <dave_1> now how do I start the sim?
[22:33:02] <jmkasunich> is this a non-realtime system?
[22:33:06] <dave_1> yes
[22:33:22] <alex_joni> dave_1: the normal way
[22:33:27] <alex_joni> dave_1: scripts/emc
[22:33:33] <dave_1> OK
[22:33:37] <dave_1> brb
[22:33:46] <alex_joni> dave_1: don't forget to select a sim/ config
[22:34:01] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: sorry I wasted your time :(
[22:34:09] <jmkasunich> ?
[22:34:10] <alex_joni> shouldn't have started the topic
[22:34:27] <jmkasunich> ah well, I could have stopped at any time
[22:34:37] <jmkasunich> hey, I know - lets get robin to talk to him!
[22:34:42] <alex_joni> yeah
[22:34:57] <robin_z> meep?
[22:35:00] <alex_joni> robin_z: meep :)
[22:35:04] <robin_z> talk to whom?
[22:35:07] <alex_joni> robin_z: you need a new car
[22:35:14] <robin_z> I do?
[22:35:20] <alex_joni> DanF_DrC here wants to convince you to buy an electric car
[22:35:25] <alex_joni> powered by EESTOR
[22:35:39] <robin_z> oh, a friend just but a lexus 4wd hybrid ..
[22:35:44] <robin_z> impressive it is too
[22:35:50] <alex_joni> no.. repeat after me
[22:35:50] <jmkasunich> no, not a hybrid - pure electric
[22:35:54] <robin_z> ick
[22:35:57] <robin_z> no thanks
[22:35:58] <bill20r3> without eestor it's crap, apparently.
[22:36:00] <alex_joni> hybrid is bad, pure electric is good
[22:36:09] <jmkasunich> hybrids are trash and pure electric will replace them in less than 10 years
[22:36:13] <robin_z> turbo diesel please.
[22:36:19] <bill20r3> also, I will keep saying it until you want to punch me in the face.
[22:36:39] <bill20r3> heh
[22:36:49] <robin_z> I still cant see why electric is better
[22:37:00] <jmkasunich> heh, its not
[22:37:01] <robin_z> chepaer maybe , but better?
[22:37:09] <alex_joni> apparantly after you watch a few videos you'll be convinced :)
[22:37:11] <jmkasunich> but don't tell DanF_DrC that
[22:37:17] <robin_z> heh
[22:37:30] <robin_z> saving fuel is not an advantage imho
[22:37:34] <alex_joni> http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=c860df3ccf66c83fb61bb2ffd934330b.889183
[22:37:39] <bill20r3> then he'll call you obtuse, and then wonder why you're not immediatly convinced.
[22:37:42] <dave_1> hybrids are cute and a stop-gap... not necessarily cost effective
[22:38:11] <robin_z> like saving it for what exactly? we'll just use all the oil until its gone ...
[22:38:29] <alex_joni> and then some
[22:38:37] <dave_1> well it emc tried SCOPE_RT: installed sample function
[22:38:37] <dave_1> emc/usr_intf/emcsh.cc 5152: can't connect to emc
[22:38:37] <dave_1> Shutting down and cleaning up EMC2...
[22:39:02] <alex_joni> dave_1: when did you checkout?
[22:39:09] <alex_joni> and what config are you trying to run?
[22:39:10] <dave_1> 2 hours ago
[22:39:49] <dave_1> sim tkemc
[22:40:00] <dave_1> pure-sim that is
[22:40:57] <dave_1> tried using axis and it complained I need Tkinter
[22:41:11] <alex_joni> how about sim/tkemc .. same probelsm?
[22:41:50] <alex_joni> problems
[22:42:20] <dave_1> I just gave you part of the output from an attempt at pure-sim tkemc
[22:43:08] <alex_joni> dave_1: there is a config called sim/tkemc.ini and one called sim/puresim.ini
[22:43:17] <alex_joni> can you give the full output?
[22:43:28] <dave_1> sure ... brb
[22:43:36] <alex_joni> put it on www.pastebin.ca
[22:43:41] <jepler> alex_joni: the tkemc.ini still has base period 50us
[22:43:53] <jepler> alex_joni: I thought one of us changed it, but it looks like not
[22:44:39] <alex_joni> hmm.. I thought I changed it ?
[22:44:54] <alex_joni> jepler: can you please? my devel box is down right now
[22:46:05] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/sim/tkemc.ini: for simulator
[22:46:33] <jepler> done .. a "cvs up" should fix tkemc.ini
[22:47:18] <dave_1> 193531 is the pastebin reference
[22:49:19] <alex_joni> dave_1: update your CVS :)
[22:50:02] <dave_1> ok.... remember I did a anon... do I need to wait or is it almost concurrent these days?
[22:51:02] <dave_1> is the only change the base-period?
[22:51:07] <jmkasunich> it _is_ concurrent these days
[22:51:15] <jmkasunich> one of the benefits of the new cvs server
[22:51:21] <dave_1> indeed.
[22:51:46] <bill20r3> home.
[22:57:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[22:57:22] <alex_joni> running out of electrical power on my laptop :D
[22:57:43] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[22:57:49] <jmkasunich> time for dinner here I think
[22:58:16] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I'll work some more on the comp userspace stuff
[22:58:31] <jmkasunich> ok
[22:58:46] <alex_joni> but I'm lost on the RT part :)
[22:58:55] <jmkasunich> I might get a chance to work on that this weekend
[23:03:41] <dave_1> sim-axis output is at pastebin 193537
[23:04:26] <dave_1> but the sim-tkemc worked nicely... I got a white backround rather than the blue.... think I like it. :-)
[23:07:20] <jepler> dave_1: ImportError: No module named Tkinter
[23:07:49] <jepler> if you're using a debian-based system, the package name will be similar to python2.4-tk
[23:08:16] <jepler> if you're using a redhat/fedora based system, the package name will be similar to tkinter
[23:08:38] <dave_1> This is on a FC 5 system... so what do I look for.
[23:08:53] <dave_1> Oh... just read the rest
[23:16:35] <dave_1> Bingo ... both tkemc and axis working under sim :):)
[23:16:46] <dave_1> THANKS!