#emc | Logs for 2006-09-04

[01:18:23] <davidf> tomp?
[01:43:06] <chinamill> Hello
[01:47:49] <jepler> long time no see, chinamill
[01:49:42] <chinamill> yes, it is true, how is things nowdays ;)
[01:49:58] <chinamill> more modern?
[01:52:42] <jepler> there's something changing in emc every day
[02:03:14] <chinamill> :)
[02:03:51] <chinamill> any intresting stuff?
[02:05:33] <jepler> I've been working on a simple CAM for greyscale images (pixel brightness = height of that spot in the finished item)
[02:05:47] <jepler> it needs somebody to test it now
[02:10:05] <tomp> nite all, thanks
[03:15:01] <jepler> announcing a tool to make writing HAL modules a bit easier: http://axis.unpy.net/index.cgi/01157339338
[03:15:04] <jepler> now, goodnight
[04:25:49] <A-L-P-H-4> A-L-P-H-4 is now known as A-L-P-H-A
[04:26:02] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm!
[04:26:07] <A-L-P-H-A> i've been looking for you.
[04:26:15] <Jymmm> Yeah?
[04:26:18] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[04:26:33] <Jymmm> what's up?
[04:26:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I've been looking to see if you can have some photos of your machine... looking to build a 4'x8' machine, and was wondering how your setup was.
[04:27:38] <Jymmm> Well, mine is 24" x 24" x 6", but photos are here: http://www.k2cnc.com/DuportalPro343Access/Pictures/default.asp?iChannel=3&nChannel=Pictures
[04:29:27] <A-L-P-H-A> is it just extruded channels it's running on?
[04:29:45] <Jymmm> The frame is 80/20
[04:29:53] <A-L-P-H-A> i don't know what that means
[04:29:58] <Jymmm> hold on
[04:30:15] <Jymmm> http://www.8020.net/
[04:30:49] <Jymmm> There are 80/20 "clones" too, but only slightly cheaper.
[04:31:06] <A-L-P-H-A> I see.
[04:31:19] <Jymmm> Now, they do sell remnants on ebay really cheap
[04:31:33] <A-L-P-H-A> i'm actually right there.
[04:32:46] <Jymmm> http://stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale
[04:33:56] <A-L-P-H-A> is it hard to square that stuff up?
[04:34:14] <Jymmm> what do you mean?
[04:34:33] <Jymmm> like at a right angle between two lengths?
[04:34:37] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah
[04:35:06] <Jymmm> You'll need one of thos (what do the call it).... um, abc block? 123 block?
[04:35:12] <A-L-P-H-A> 123 blocks.
[04:35:19] <A-L-P-H-A> or 345 blocks.
[04:35:19] <Jymmm> ok, yeah.
[04:35:26] <Jymmm> nfc =)
[04:35:50] <A-L-P-H-A> so just use that to square, and measure the corner to corner, and get the diags.
[04:35:52] <A-L-P-H-A> 'ight 'ight.
[04:35:56] <A-L-P-H-A> just a matter of setup
[04:36:22] <A-L-P-H-A> set it up on a large MDF board... bolt down.
[04:37:28] <A-L-P-H-A> how's the rollar bearing, on shafts going with that setup?
[04:37:30] <Jymmm> Um, well...
[04:37:32] <A-L-P-H-A> work decent?
[04:37:39] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.k2cnc.com/DuportalPro343Access/Pictures/detail.asp?iData=15&iCat=637&iChannel=3&nChannel=Pictures
[04:38:36] <Jymmm> Oh, I originally had that, lots of damn problems with it. I got them to upgrade me to real channel
[04:38:50] <Jymmm> err real rails
[04:39:14] <Jymmm> and thompson roller bearings too
[04:39:38] <Jymmm> the cheap ones, but still.
[04:39:52] <Jymmm> except on Z, it's acme
[04:40:25] <A-L-P-H-A> linear bearings?
[04:40:37] <Jymmm> The problem with the skate bearings is that it doens't track consistantly across the entrie length of travel.
[04:40:39] <A-L-P-H-A> the plastic stuff? or metal ball bearings?
[04:40:50] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, I wouldn't figure it would properly.
[04:41:19] <Jymmm> Well, it would but everything has to be PERFECT, the problem being is thermal expansions.
[04:41:39] <Jymmm> linear rails at least has some tiny flex in them.
[04:41:41] <A-L-P-H-A> so what's the current setup now?
[04:41:49] <A-L-P-H-A> ball screws? on what type of slides?
[04:42:03] <Jymmm> the sam eone that Les' uses.
[04:42:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm not fimiliar with what les' setup
[04:42:52] <Jymmm> http://www.k2cnc.com/DuportalPro343Access/Pictures/detail.asp?iData=29&iCat=636&iChannel=3&nChannel=Pictures
[04:43:01] <Jymmm> That's the cloestest to mine.
[04:43:05] <Jymmm> cloesest
[04:43:10] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... V style bearings?
[04:43:11] <Jymmm> of fuck it. =)
[04:43:31] <Jymmm> no, they look like a slice of bread
[04:43:43] <A-L-P-H-A> rounded on side?
[04:43:47] <A-L-P-H-A> on one side
[04:44:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I actually kind of like that setup. it's fairly simple.
[04:45:32] <Jymmm> Heh, you'll need a set of parallel bars.
[04:45:47] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[04:45:55] <A-L-P-H-A> just need to find those style of linear slides.
[04:46:04] <Jymmm> I will tell you this, there is a *LOT* of machined parts even using 80/20
[04:46:09] <A-L-P-H-A> and some parallel bars, and an accurate level.
[04:46:26] <A-L-P-H-A> I do have a cnc mill... whichI could make those parts.
[04:47:26] <A-L-P-H-A> I can forsee thermal expansion being a pain in the ass.
[04:47:35] <A-L-P-H-A> especially being 5' x 9' in length.
[04:47:46] <A-L-P-H-A> considering I want to machine 4'x8' sheets
[04:47:53] <Jymmm> That will be some EXPECIVE 80/20
[04:47:56] <Jymmm> EXPENSIVE
[04:48:04] <A-L-P-H-A> my budget is $1500.
[04:48:19] <A-L-P-H-A> just for the frame/machine.
[04:48:20] <Jymmm> excluding motors/electronics/computer?
[04:48:23] <A-L-P-H-A> + electronics.
[04:48:26] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah
[04:48:39] <A-L-P-H-A> $1500 for machine, minus computer, motors, power supply.
[04:48:45] <Jymmm> you'll spend $1500 in raw materials alone
[04:49:04] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll get it priced tomorrow...
[04:49:34] <Jymmm> Use the deflection calculator they have, at 8ft, I think you'll be fucked.
[04:49:53] <A-L-P-H-A> ??
[04:50:04] <A-L-P-H-A> serious?
[04:50:06] <Jymmm> it'll bow at that length
[04:50:09] <Jymmm> I think so.
[04:50:39] <Jymmm> because you'll have to go more like 9 or 10 feet long.
[04:51:06] <Jymmm> MAybe you can give it added support, but that means you'll have to have a level table too.
[04:53:06] <Jymmm> http://www.8020.net/Design-Tools-26.asp
[04:53:16] <A-L-P-H-A> alsready downloading
[04:53:18] <Jymmm> They have a deflection calculator
[04:53:23] <Jymmm> ah, ok =)
[04:53:41] <Jymmm> also remember you'll have a dynamic load, not static.
[04:54:05] <A-L-P-H-A> are you happy with your machine?
[04:56:08] <Jymmm> After it first arrived, it took me about 8 months of calling and getting correct parts made (defective), and even shipped it back to them so they could return it repaired. I still have issues with my steppers stalling on long (2+ hour) runs, but I think the new computer I got will resolve that (hopefully)
[04:56:27] <Jymmm> If not, it's geckos.
[04:57:04] <Jymmm> It will stall if I forget to grease the ball screws too =)
[04:57:40] <Jymmm> I accidentlly threw away my grease gun, so I've been using vaseline =)
[04:58:17] <Jymmm> I need to get a new one, after I move. If I even have a place to set it up.
[04:58:43] <A-L-P-H-A> shibby
[04:58:45] <Jymmm> it's hard finding pet friendly places, plus one with a garage is even harder.
[04:58:56] <A-L-P-H-A> oh you rent.
[04:58:56] <A-L-P-H-A> i own
[04:59:09] <A-L-P-H-A> I could make this in my basement... where thermal expansion is less of an isue.
[04:59:10] <A-L-P-H-A> issue
[04:59:25] <A-L-P-H-A> though my fuck'n pool take will take a dive.
[04:59:31] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... no
[04:59:35] <A-L-P-H-A> no no no... bad idea.
[04:59:40] <A-L-P-H-A> use my pool table as the frame.
[04:59:43] <Jymmm> Yeah, we've been the resident managers for over 18 years. The owner died resently and now they told us (basically) to get out.
[04:59:52] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm not gonna waste $2k on fuck up my pool table.
[05:00:07] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, shit. that sucks.
[05:00:38] <Jymmm> Yeah. We have been looking at a 200 mile radius
[05:00:47] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, move to Canada.
[05:00:48] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[05:01:00] <Jymmm> Salinas to the south, Shasta County to the north.
[05:01:57] <A-L-P-H-A> I saw their 200 ipm cut into wood.
[05:02:05] <A-L-P-H-A> the cutter they were using was ripping chunks out.
[05:02:22] <Jymmm> So, we keep packing and looking for a place and just keep waiting for responses to our emails/faxes that don't seem to be coming, unless it's a REAL shithole (as in mini ghetto)
[05:02:43] <A-L-P-H-A> go for a gated community. :)
[05:02:53] <A-L-P-H-A> but I don't think they'll like the noise from your machines.
[05:03:10] <Jymmm> That's why I haven't been around lately.... I had budgeted to run the business based on the rent discount we got as being managers,
[05:03:11] <A-L-P-H-A> I had no clue why it's soo common in the states to have a gated community
[05:03:34] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, shit man... hope you get things sorted out soon.
[05:03:47] <Jymmm> Now, I need to get a job and run this on the weekends if I find a place I can setup.
[05:03:52] <Jymmm> Thanks, I appreciate it.
[05:04:14] <Jymmm> Thank gawd I dont have to look for a car too.
[05:04:18] <Jymmm> at the same time.
[05:09:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder if i could get in the cabinet making business.
[05:13:08] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, what's your email?
[05:13:11] <jmkasunich> well, thats a new on.... threaded rod with fscked up threads
[05:13:29] <A-L-P-H-A> hi jmkasunich
[05:13:32] <jmkasunich> hi
[05:13:35] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is bummed
[05:13:39] <A-L-P-H-A> what's up?
[05:13:59] <jmkasunich> I was making some parts that are supposed to spin on a piece of 4-40 threaded rod
[05:14:13] <A-L-P-H-A> yuhuh...
[05:14:15] <jmkasunich> pulling my hair out trying to find out why my threads seemed fscked
[05:14:41] <jmkasunich> then I put the threaded rod under a magnifying glass next to a 4-40 screw
[05:14:53] <jmkasunich> damn rod isn't fully threaded!
[05:14:54] <A-L-P-H-A> 'have you fscked your box today?'
[05:15:13] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, recut it, if you need it in a hurry.
[05:15:17] <A-L-P-H-A> like run a die over it.
[05:15:25] <A-L-P-H-A> and/or yell at the supplier.
[05:15:27] <jmkasunich> I don't have a 4-40 die (I don't think)
[05:15:41] <A-L-P-H-A> oh. I've got several.
[05:15:47] <jmkasunich> I already did yell at the supplier (McMaster Carr answers the phone 24/7)
[05:16:00] <jmkasunich> new rod will ship tuesday, I'll have it wednesday
[05:16:05] <A-L-P-H-A> fun.
[05:16:18] <jmkasunich> but I want it _now_ dammit!
[05:16:43] <Jymmm> fedex overnight?
[05:16:51] <A-L-P-H-A> he'd have ot pay extra
[05:16:58] <Jymmm> fedex same day delivery =)
[05:17:39] <Jymmm> old saying "You want it bad, you get it bad. The worse you want it, the worse you get it"
[05:17:50] <jmkasunich> the problem isn't the shipping
[05:18:05] <jmkasunich> I get mcmaster stuff the next day all the time - the warehouse is only 50 miles away
[05:18:13] <Jymmm> jmkasunich you in bfe?
[05:18:26] <jmkasunich> the problem is although they answer the phone 24/7, they only ship 8/5
[05:18:27] <Jymmm> no local tool shops to get a die from?
[05:18:45] <jmkasunich> it's 1:17 in the morning on Labor day
[05:19:01] <Jymmm> oh, you mean you want it *RIGHT NOW*, heh.
[05:19:28] <Jymmm> we have home depot here open 24/7
[05:19:47] <jmkasunich> yeah, as in "I was working on this project, anticipating how its gonna look when its all together, and poof, stopped in my tracks
[05:19:49] <Jymmm> you want a water heater at 3am, no problem!
[05:20:01] <A-L-P-H-A> hahah. that's so dumb.
[05:20:19] <jmkasunich> I wonder if home desperate has 4-40 dies?
[05:20:22] <A-L-P-H-A> 6 sharpies for $5.99,or 12 for $12.96. You pick. :)
[05:20:25] <Jymmm> Not really, some contractors shop that early for a job at 6am
[05:20:29] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, probably do.
[05:20:33] <A-L-P-H-A> but you probably have to buy a set.
[05:20:43] <jmkasunich> not gonna do that
[05:20:51] <jmkasunich> I almost _never_ have occaision to use a die
[05:21:07] <A-L-P-H-A> want to recut manually on your lathe?
[05:21:21] <jmkasunich> 4-40? 2" long? in stainless?
[05:21:26] <jmkasunich> I don't think so
[05:21:57] <jmkasunich> maybe home desperate has some 2" long 4-40 screws
[05:22:02] <jmkasunich> doubt it, thats pretty long
[05:22:07] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchResults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@1586963455.1157347278@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccggaddikfkgfgicgelceffdfgidgll.0&MID=9876
[05:22:38] <jmkasunich> huh?
[05:24:23] <Jymmm> they do have individual dies, but I could only find a 4-40 tap online
[05:24:37] <jmkasunich> I'm not gonna buy a die
[05:24:39] <Jymmm> the smallest die I found online is 6-32
[05:24:45] <jmkasunich> a couple long screws maybe
[05:25:07] <Jymmm> they dont list hw online
[05:25:14] <Jymmm> nor lumber
[05:25:31] <Jymmm> jmkasunich what city you in?
[05:25:43] <jmkasunich> I only need two, Cleveland OH
[05:25:52] <jmkasunich> (suburbs actually)
[05:26:07] <jmkasunich> the HD is only a 5 minute driive, no sense looking online
[05:26:25] <Jymmm> is it open 24/7 ?
[05:26:29] <jmkasunich> no
[05:26:43] <jmkasunich> but it is open tomorrow
[05:26:48] <Jymmm> k
[05:26:51] <jmkasunich> later today that is
[05:27:31] <Jymmm> heh
[05:27:56] <Jymmm> good luck. I find that HD has crap for speciality HW
[05:28:22] <Jymmm> I even spoke with the HW rep once.
[05:28:28] <Jymmm> Crown Bolt.
[05:28:39] <Jymmm> (at least for this area that is)
[05:30:41] <Jymmm> How much you wanna bet that even THIS place has a "no pets" policy?! (not that I would even let a animal live in this area) http://candyfred.tripod.com/
[05:31:57] <A-L-P-H-A> looks ghetto
[05:32:15] <Jymmm> ya think?
[05:37:52] <A-L-P-H-A> I used to work in the ghetto... but it's a cleaner looking ghetto.
[05:37:57] <A-L-P-H-A> what pets do you have?
[05:38:03] <A-L-P-H-A> i think turtles, and fish are okay
[05:38:10] <A-L-P-H-A> maybe even a hamster style pet
[05:38:12] <Jymmm> 18 cockatiels and 3 Sun Conure parrots.
[05:38:30] <A-L-P-H-A> no, seriousyl... what do youhave?
[05:39:12] <Jymmm> We've been playing on ppl's ignorance.... if they allow cats, we ask if birds are ok. usually they say yes =)
[05:39:27] <Jymmm> The problem is pets destory apartments.
[05:39:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate the smell of pets.
[05:39:38] <Jymmm> that's why 90% of places don't allow them.
[05:39:42] <A-L-P-H-A> but I like pets...
[05:39:57] <A-L-P-H-A> just not the smell... it grosses me out... makes ti feel unclean.
[05:40:17] <A-L-P-H-A> my eyes were dying at my friends place... and his golden retriever.
[05:40:37] <A-L-P-H-A> and they need to trim his claws... as it jabbed me on my foot a few times.
[05:40:43] <Jymmm> you just have allergies is sounds like.
[05:40:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I do.
[05:40:53] <A-L-P-H-A> and contacts.
[05:41:17] <Jymmm> try with 21 birds are preening themselves...lots of dander.
[05:41:22] <Jymmm> a/are/all/
[05:41:38] <A-L-P-H-A> why do you have so many birds?
[05:41:53] <A-L-P-H-A> are they food for another animal?
[05:42:26] <Jymmm> two reaosns.... 1) we will take in rescues and 2) can't keep them from humping =)
[05:42:41] <A-L-P-H-A> separate cages.
[05:42:57] <A-L-P-H-A> or all males in one, all females in aonther? [unless they fight]
[05:43:22] <Jymmm> When someone comes to your door with a bird in a paper bag, it's very difficult to say no, considering they will either toss it in the trash can or just set it free.
[05:43:43] <A-L-P-H-A> free is good... at least nature takes it couse...
[05:43:44] <jmkasunich> I guess you can't spay birds?
[05:43:59] <A-L-P-H-A> feed them hormones...
[05:44:00] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A they cant survive in the wild...
[05:44:10] <jmkasunich> duh, you don't have to spay birds, just take the eggs and make omlets
[05:44:22] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, but they'll complete the cycle of life for them... as in feed another animal(s)
[05:44:37] <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich. ohoh... FRESH eggs... yumm
[05:44:51] <A-L-P-H-A> I hear ostrage (sp) are supposed to be the BEST
[05:45:54] <A-L-P-H-A> all I'm saying is... and being serious about it... some animals shouldn't be saved... it's how evolution and nature works...
[05:46:21] <A-L-P-H-A> but if it were an oil spill, then yeah... TRY and save the animals
[05:46:38] <A-L-P-H-A> but if it got hit by a car, no...
[05:49:11] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[05:49:23] <A-L-P-H-A> nite
[07:41:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[07:42:07] <alex_joni> 'lo
[08:47:07] <A-L-P-H-A> hey alex_joni, and Lerneaen_Hydra
[08:55:42] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. A few minutes ago, we experienced a network outage on a main rotation server. We've removed it from the main rotation and are in conversation with the sponsor now to determine an explanation for the outage.
[08:56:12] <lilo> [Global Notice] Apologies for the inconvenience, and we appreciate your patience. Thank you for using freenode and have a good morning!
[09:25:19] <simon78> Is there any easy way to test out image-to-gcode without upgrading the entire emc to cvs? (i.e. checkout needed files and move to the right location)
[09:28:14] <renesis> http://darkertechnologies.com/image/bush_ocp.png
[09:33:30] <simon78> I have 2.0.3 now.
[09:33:38] <alex_joni> simon78: hardly
[09:33:57] <alex_joni> there was an older image-to-gcode version, but the latest functionality is only in CVS HEAD
[09:36:24] <simon78> OK.
[09:38:34] <simon78> Is there any major (known) bugs or such in CVS or is it (somewhat) stable?
[09:58:00] <alex_joni> simon78: it should be somewhat stable
[09:58:27] <alex_joni> simon78: but I would recommend to install the CVS version in place
[09:58:33] <alex_joni> and use it for testing & such
[09:58:42] <alex_joni> and keep the 2.0.3 version for the serious machining
[10:50:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra looks away whistling idly
[10:51:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've only used head for serious machining, though as I use emc for a lathe it's semi-excusable
[11:04:34] <A-L-P-H-A> renesis, OCP, as in Robocop, futuristic corperation that runs New Detroit?
[11:05:17] <renesis> omni consumer products
[11:05:18] <renesis> jes
[11:05:32] <A-L-P-H-A> hey! at least i got the reference.
[11:06:09] <renesis> there was a drum n bass set i had on my mp3 thingy on vacation
[11:06:38] <renesis> was like, svary bush quotes, and a sample of the executive being blown away by ed209 in the boardroom
[11:06:54] <renesis> s/svary/scary
[11:07:05] <renesis> heh, i couldnt help it
[11:07:15] <A-L-P-H-A> there wasn't that much hate towards Bill Clinton was there?
[11:07:22] <simon78> Do i need to us a specific version of GCC or will the default do (4.0.3)
[11:07:36] <simon78> to build CVS that is
[11:07:53] <renesis> you can find tons of reasons
[11:08:08] <renesis> but clinton appealed to real people
[11:08:28] <renesis> im not sure bush does, eheh
[11:38:36] <alex_joni> simon78: you need to use the same gcc as the kernel was built
[11:38:43] <alex_joni> 4.0. something ;)
[11:38:50] <alex_joni> just use : apt-get build-dep emc2
[11:39:15] <alex_joni> it will get you most of the needed stuff
[11:48:26] <A-L-P-H-A> ordered a new printer. :)
[11:48:34] <A-L-P-H-A> Canon Pixma mp530
[11:48:39] <A-L-P-H-A> 35 page auto document scanner. :)
[11:48:50] <A-L-P-H-A> ~$220CDN
[12:45:25] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: color laser?
[12:51:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo again
[12:51:51] <alex_joni> hi LH
[12:52:23] <alex_joni> no more crocodile hunter :/
[12:53:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I heard... :(
[12:54:39] <ValarQ> crocodile hunter?
[12:55:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> steve irwin (sp?)
[12:55:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> erwin
[12:55:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, either irwin or erwin
[12:56:06] <ValarQ> oh, that nut
[12:56:34] <ValarQ> i'm surprised he made it this far
[13:03:39] <alex_joni> ValarQ: some fish got him :)
[13:04:45] <ValarQ> yeah, i just looked it up on /. :)
[13:53:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> hello?
[13:53:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> anyone here?
[13:53:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> alex_joni?
[13:53:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I have a running instance of EMC with a bug active
[13:53:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> in this case the FO wheel doesn't work
[13:54:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> but X/Z wheels do work
[13:54:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> this has happened once before
[13:54:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> at that time it worked again after restard
[13:54:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> restart
[13:54:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> and also, I've been running this instance of EMC for quite a while, and to begin with the FO wheel did work
[13:54:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> so it just died mid-program
[13:56:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> anyone here?
[13:56:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> logger_aj: bookmark
[13:56:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> See
[13:59:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> alex_joni: you sure you're not there?
[13:59:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> jepler maybe
[13:59:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> * Lerneaen_Hydra2 looks around
[13:59:58] <SWPadnos> nobody home ;)
[14:00:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> oh noes!
[14:00:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> SWPadnos: any idea of what to test/run?
[14:00:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> while that instance is open
[14:00:46] <SWPadnos> can you put a halmeter or halscope on the jogwheel inputs, and the count output?
[14:01:17] <SWPadnos> (ie, the A & B phase bit inputs, and the numerical count output)
[14:02:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> phase and counts works as expected
[14:02:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> or well
[14:02:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> works as it should
[14:02:58] <SWPadnos> ok. can you post the .hal files on pastebin? (or are they already somewhere on the net?)
[14:03:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> halui.feed.override counts works as well
[14:03:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[14:03:38] <SWPadnos> is halui running? (ie, not stopped)
[14:03:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> where do I check that?
[14:04:10] <SWPadnos> err - top and/or ps
[14:04:20] <SWPadnos> I don't remember the state codes for ps though
[14:05:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> oh it's a thread?
[14:05:12] <SWPadnos> no, halui is a userspace application
[14:05:24] <SWPadnos> so you can use the normal Linux tools to see what it's doing
[14:05:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> hmm nope don't see halui there
[14:06:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> maybe it died or something
[14:06:28] <SWPadnos> that was my thought
[14:06:48] <SWPadnos> the Y/Z wheels go straight to motion, I think the F.
[14:06:53] <SWPadnos> - "the F"
[14:07:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> which bit of the .hal would be relevant?
[14:07:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> the jogwheel bit or the standard bit?
[14:07:49] <SWPadnos> unfrotunately, I'm not sure. I haven't looked at much that has to do with halui
[14:07:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[14:08:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I'll just pastebin the lot then
[14:10:01] <jepler> if there's no 'halui' process that explains why halui.feed.override doesn't work
[14:10:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> http://pastebin.ca/160574
[14:10:10] <jepler> so the question is why it crashed
[14:10:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> yeah
[14:10:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> exactly
[14:10:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> that's the basic setup I run
[14:10:35] <jepler> 08:55:10 <Lerneaen_Hydra2> and also, I've been running this instance of EMC for quite a while, and to begin with the FO wheel did work
[14:10:41] <jepler> do you mean that during this session, the FO wheel never worked?
[14:10:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> AFAIR all the other files are unchanged
[14:11:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I mean that during this session FO worked, then died suddenly
[14:11:09] <jepler> ok
[14:11:30] <jepler> I read that several times, but it only now started saying "did work" instead of "didn't work"
[14:11:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> haha
[14:11:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I do that sometimes too
[14:12:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> do you have any bash-vodoo?
[14:12:21] <jepler> did you exit that emc session yet?
[14:12:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> nope
[14:12:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I thought it would be good to save
[14:12:39] <jepler> does 'halcmd show comp' (make sure you run the right halcmd!) show a 'halui' component?
[14:13:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> run the right halcmd?
[14:13:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> oh, like emc2/bin/halcmd
[14:13:15] <jepler> yeah
[14:13:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> for my runinplace
[14:13:24] <jepler> it's a common mistake to run the 2.0.x one
[14:13:32] <jepler> when working with HEAD
[14:13:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> haha, yeah
[14:13:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I only have head though
[14:13:46] <jepler> ok
[14:14:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> it has halui
[14:14:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> 04 User halui 4787 ready
[14:14:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> oops
[14:14:32] <jepler> but there's no process 4787
[14:14:38] <jepler> 'ps 4787'
[14:15:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND
[14:15:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> 4787 ? SL 0:04 /home/cnc-lathe/emc2/bin/halui -ini /home/cnc-lathe/e
[14:15:12] <jepler> OK, so halui *is* still running
[14:15:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> strange
[14:15:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> spindle on/off is dead too
[14:16:15] <jepler> gdb /home/cnc-lathe/emc2/bin/halui 4787
[14:16:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> and then?
[14:16:45] <jepler> at the (gdb) prompt, type 'where 5'
[14:16:55] <jepler> and pastebin the result
[14:17:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> http://pastebin.ca/160588
[14:18:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> the FO died when it was set to 25%
[14:18:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> or rather
[14:18:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> when it died it was set to 25%
[14:18:52] <jepler> frame 3
[14:18:53] <jepler> print end
[14:19:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> do I type print end?
[14:19:38] <jepler> yes
[14:20:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> http://pastebin.ca/160591
[14:20:58] <jepler> print emcTimeout = 1.0
[14:21:02] <jepler> continue
[14:22:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> currently it says continue
[14:22:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> and just sits there
[14:22:11] <jepler> has halui come unstuck now?
[14:22:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> continueing
[14:22:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ooh
[14:22:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> yeah
[14:22:23] <jepler> does FO work?
[14:22:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> it is
[14:22:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:22:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> yes
[14:22:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> spindle on/off too
[14:23:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> emcTimeout = 1.0 gave $2=1
[14:23:07] <jepler> the function emcCommandWaitReceived will wait forever until the condition (emcStatus->echo_serial_number == serial_number) is satisfied.
[14:23:23] <jepler> this is intended to make sure that emc has received the command (like feed override) before it sends the next command
[14:23:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> hmm
[14:24:01] <jepler> but in this case it didn't work, for reasons that are unclear
[14:24:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> anything else to test?
[14:24:13] <alex_joni> hello
[14:24:14] <jepler> setting emcTimeout to a positive number means it will wait that many seconds, instead of forever
[14:24:15] <alex_joni> * alex_joni got back
[14:24:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> hi alex
[14:24:30] <alex_joni> jepler: thanks for getting it that far
[14:24:36] <jepler> alex_joni: you're welcome
[14:24:44] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: were you jogging it while it happened?
[14:24:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> nope
[14:24:53] <alex_joni> * alex_joni thinks of something
[14:24:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> running a program
[14:24:57] <SWPadnos> I knew if I stalled long enough, someone who can actually help would show up ;)
[14:24:59] <SWPadnos> thanks jepler
[14:25:00] <alex_joni> or otherwise running the gui?
[14:25:01] <jepler> alex_joni: I'll let you handle it from here ..
[14:25:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I'm not sure if it died right when I ran it
[14:25:11] <alex_joni> jepler: I suspect it's a NML problem
[14:25:19] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: go to manual mode
[14:25:24] <alex_joni> and try to stress it
[14:25:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> stress it?
[14:25:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> do lots of stuff?
[14:25:36] <alex_joni> keep turning the wheel with one hand, jog the GUI with the keyboard
[14:25:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> hmm
[14:25:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[14:25:48] <jepler> alex_joni: yeah, I've always been unsure how it worked to have multiple GUIs sending commands
[14:26:12] <alex_joni> jepler: the odd thing is that they all use the same command number
[14:26:13] <jepler> alex_joni: you may want to have Lerneaen_Hydra2 restart to get the "forever" timeout to see if that triggers the problem...
[14:26:20] <jepler> bbl
[14:26:28] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: like jepler said..
[14:26:33] <alex_joni> stop emc, and run again
[14:26:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> hmm it makes a fractal-esque toolpath but not more than that
[14:27:01] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: stop emc, and run it again
[14:27:03] <alex_joni> then do that
[14:27:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> stop emc?
[14:27:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> restart?
[14:27:09] <alex_joni> yes
[14:27:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> then do jogwheel + kb?
[14:27:27] <alex_joni> jepler already figured out where it hanged.. so no use to keep it alive any longer
[14:27:32] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: yes
[14:27:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[14:29:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> well well well
[14:29:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> it died
[14:29:53] <alex_joni> well?
[14:30:04] <alex_joni> ok.. so it died when you were doing both?
[14:30:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> yes kb and jogwheels
[14:30:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I was pressing all kb buttons randomly
[14:30:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> and spinning all wheels randomly
[14:30:44] <anonimasu> lol
[14:30:59] <anonimasu> see, it protected you from jogging into the spindle.
[14:31:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> X/Z jog works, but not FO
[14:31:10] <anonimasu> isnt that actually a good ting ^_^
[14:31:16] <anonimasu> just kidding
[14:31:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> nor does spindle on/off
[14:31:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> haha
[14:31:25] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: isn't X/Z jogs connected directly to the motion controller?
[14:31:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> I don't recall
[14:31:38] <alex_joni> the rest goes to halui which sits in a loop waiting for something
[14:31:40] <alex_joni> I think so
[14:31:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> http://pastebin.ca/160574
[14:32:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> that's all my modified hal files and .ini
[14:32:37] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: can you change something and recompile?
[14:32:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> sure
[14:32:49] <alex_joni> I am still at work, no emc2 machine around to test
[14:32:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> oh, ok
[14:32:58] <alex_joni> open emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc
[14:33:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> at least this bug is easy to reproduce
[14:33:37] <alex_joni> now.. once opened find these 5 lines:
[14:33:42] <alex_joni> static enum {
[14:33:43] <alex_joni> EMC_WAIT_NONE = 1,
[14:33:43] <alex_joni> EMC_WAIT_RECEIVED,
[14:33:43] <alex_joni> EMC_WAIT_DONE
[14:33:43] <alex_joni> } emcWaitType = EMC_WAIT_RECEIVED;
[14:33:52] <alex_joni> change the last one to read:
[14:33:58] <alex_joni> } emcWaitType = EMC_WAIT_NONE;
[14:34:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[14:34:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> then ./configure make && sudo makesetuid?
[14:34:50] <alex_joni> only make
[14:35:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[14:35:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> so no need to reconfig?
[14:35:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> nice
[14:35:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> uh, where do I run make again?
[14:35:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> in src, right?
[14:36:33] <alex_joni> right
[14:36:37] <alex_joni> emc2/src
[14:36:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> that was fast
[14:36:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> did it only redo the parts it needed?
[14:37:00] <alex_joni> right
[14:37:03] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[14:37:05] <alex_joni> only one file in this case
[14:37:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> then start emc again?
[14:37:11] <alex_joni> it even reruns configure if needed
[14:37:18] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: yup, and stress it again
[14:37:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> nice
[14:37:22] <alex_joni> first check if it still runs
[14:37:39] <alex_joni> runs = does the same things as before..
[14:38:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> yeah
[14:38:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> it doesn't die now
[14:38:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> so...
[14:38:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> is it "safe" to run this compile I have now?
[14:39:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> or does bad stuff happen now that I've set that function to a different value
[14:40:28] <alex_joni> it will probably bitch a bit when I'll commit that change ;)
[14:40:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> haha
[14:41:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> uh, whats going to happen to the function I disabled now
[14:41:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> is something else better going to replace it?
[14:41:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> or is it just going to be removed?
[14:43:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> uh, can I run iron with this compile?
[14:45:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> * Lerneaen_Hydra2 pokes alex_joni
[14:51:09] <pier> hi all!
[14:53:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi
[14:53:30] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: I think it should be sage
[14:53:32] <alex_joni> safe even
[14:53:44] <alex_joni> the only difference is that halui doesn't wait for a command to be sent
[14:53:57] <alex_joni> so in the case it gets lost, it doesn't crap out, but just disregards it
[14:54:08] <alex_joni> usually you probably notice it and push the button again
[14:54:16] <alex_joni> or keep turning the jogwheel
[14:57:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> oh
[14:57:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> right
[14:57:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> in FO wheel's case that'r probably not even noticable
[14:57:38] <alex_joni> I expect you not to notice it
[14:57:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> so what behavior will EMC have when this is fixed?
[14:58:10] <alex_joni> I think the one you're seeing right now
[14:59:07] <alex_joni> I need to think/read about this a bit
[14:59:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ok
[15:01:05] <alex_joni> right now I'm thinking about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O_5ef49N5I
[15:03:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> uh, another "bug" I noticed just now
[15:03:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> when loading a file that doesn't explicitly set an initial X and Z coord
[15:03:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> for example g0 x10
[15:03:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> g0 z10
[15:03:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> g1 <work>
[15:04:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> axis draws a non-existant g0 line from z0 x0 to z0 x10
[15:04:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> then to z10
[15:04:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> and then the rest as it should
[15:04:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> which is a bit misleading
[15:06:00] <alex_joni> what happens if you only have g0 x10 z10 ?
[15:06:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> it looks as it should
[15:06:52] <dmessier> Hi all.. l )
[15:07:19] <alex_joni> bon jour mess
[15:07:34] <dmessier> programming woes??
[15:07:42] <alex_joni> jus'que un peux
[15:07:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> more like nitpicky users
[15:07:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> ;)
[15:08:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> well, the halui isn't really nitpicking
[15:08:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> this latter thing is though
[15:08:37] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra2: thanks for catching that one
[15:09:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> which?
[15:09:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> halui?
[15:09:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> or axis?
[15:09:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> or both? :D
[15:10:10] <alex_joni> halui
[15:10:11] <alex_joni> :D
[15:11:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra2> it's a rather obvious bug so it's hard to miss when it happens ;)
[15:20:47] <pier> I'd like to ask a question about loading threads in the tutorial..
[15:22:10] <pier> I get an error when giving the fp1=0 option (page 34 in the emc2 manual)
[15:23:00] <alex_joni> pier: can you give the complete line?
[15:23:58] <pier> yes
[15:24:12] <pier> pier@casa:~/emc2$ sudo scripts/realtime start
[15:24:13] <pier> pier@casa:~/emc2$ sudo bin/halcmd loadrt threads name1=fast fp1=0 period1=50000
[15:24:13] <pier> insmod: error inserting '/home/pier/emc2/rtlib/threads.ko': -1 Unknown symbol in module
[15:24:13] <pier> HAL:0: ERROR: insmod failed, returned 1
[15:24:13] <pier> pier@casa:~/emc2$ sudo bin/halcmd loadrt threads name1=fast period1=50000
[15:24:13] <pier> pier@casa:~/emc2$
[15:25:15] <alex_joni> can you check dmesg ?
[15:25:24] <alex_joni> there should be some additional info there
[15:25:53] <pier> going to paste bin it
[15:26:08] <alex_joni> only the last few lines
[15:26:11] <alex_joni> 10-20
[15:28:43] <jepler> pier: it is not the cause of your problem, but if you have properly built emc2 then 'sudo' should not be necessary when running scripts/realtime, scripts/emc, or bin/halcmd
[15:29:10] <pier> http://pastebin.ca/160638
[15:29:59] <pier> I know but have to get sudoers matter sorted out...
[15:30:13] <jepler> it appears that 'fp1' is only supported in CVS, not emc 2.0.1.
[15:30:17] <alex_joni> threads: Unknown parameter `fp1'
[15:30:22] <alex_joni> that's teh actual problem
[15:30:34] <alex_joni> emc2.0.x didn't probably have that
[15:30:59] <alex_joni> I think you used period and fp_period there
[15:31:31] <jepler> no, I think that all threads created by the 'threads' component are marked as using fp in 2.0.x.
[15:31:59] <jepler> $ grep hal_create_thread threads.c
[15:31:59] <jepler> retval = hal_create_thread(name1, period1, 1);
[15:32:12] <pier> jepler: you mean it is not compulsory to declare floating point?
[15:32:47] <pier> when loading a thread?
[15:33:13] <jepler> right
[15:33:23] <jepler> in fact, in 2.0.x you can't declare that a thread doesn't use floating point
[15:33:41] <jepler> (well, when using the 'threads' component to create them)
[15:33:55] <alex_joni> jepler: right.. I was thinking of other components
[15:34:31] <pier> ok... I was just following the exact command lines in the June 17th 2006 manual..
[15:34:44] <pier> V2.0
[15:35:57] <alex_joni> pier: manuals are 87.3% accurate
[15:36:01] <pier> do I have to erase the fp1=0 parameter in the manual?
[15:36:08] <pier> ok np
[15:36:15] <alex_joni> if you can.. go ahead :D
[15:36:26] <pier> thanks
[15:39:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler: what do you think of that AXIS behavior?
[15:41:50] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: I haven't been paying attention
[15:41:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh
[15:42:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if the first move in a file doesn't have movement in both axes
[15:42:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then the non-mentioned axes start from 0 in the axis display
[15:42:52] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: yes, that's what it does
[15:43:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so
[15:43:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g0 x10
[15:43:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g0 z10
[15:43:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g1 <work>
[15:43:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shows a g0 line from z0 to z10 that doesn't happen
[15:43:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is that the best behavoir?
[15:44:23] <jepler> it's the behavior you get
[15:44:38] <jepler> it's not easy to change
[15:44:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[15:44:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[15:45:02] <jepler> it has to assume you start from somewhere .. it always assumes you start from the machine origin
[15:45:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm I see
[15:45:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> starting from current tool position would be hard to do?
[15:45:41] <jepler> yes, unless you want to reload the file anytime you jog
[15:47:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, nasty
[15:48:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe that line could be in another color?
[15:48:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or something else to differentiate it?
[15:51:10] <jepler> I'm sure there is some improvement that could be made, but I haven't thought about it
[15:54:34] <jepler> see you later .. time to spend the day in the country, sneezing the whole time
[15:55:11] <pier> curse on hayfever!!
[15:56:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> sounds nice
[15:56:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> later
[15:57:48] <alex_joni> bbl
[15:58:17] <dmessier> later as well
[15:59:32] <danex> * danex is away: Away at the moment
[16:01:02] <tomp> good morning all
[16:03:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'l
[16:03:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[16:53:42] <pier> does halscope take long to run through all the logging process?
[16:55:18] <pier> cause it is taking a lot of time on my pc...
[17:15:41] <jmkasunich> ?
[17:16:08] <pier> no way to select a channel source
[17:16:32] <jmkasunich> click on a numbered channel button
[17:16:48] <pier> a sec
[17:16:48] <jmkasunich> if there is no source for that channel, a dialog will pop up
[17:17:03] <pier> god... thanks
[17:17:12] <jmkasunich> if there is already a source, the large button under the numbered ones will display the current source, and you can click there to change it
[18:05:17] <alex_joni> hello
[18:05:46] <ValarQ> hiya
[18:07:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: nice post:)
[18:10:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi
[18:10:48] <jmkasunich> hi
[18:11:11] <jmkasunich> I'm writing a pair of new hal componnnts
[18:11:16] <jmkasunich> streamer and sampler
[18:11:17] <alex_joni> coo
[18:11:32] <jmkasunich> streamer will take data from stdin and put it on hal pins
[18:11:47] <jmkasunich> sampler will take data from hal pins and output it on stdout
[18:12:06] <SWPadnos> I wonder if Jeff's python thing would make the RT component easier for Greg Petit's thing
[18:12:11] <SWPadnos> thing thing thing
[18:13:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds useful
[18:14:14] <jmkasunich> although less convenient to use than halscope, the sampler basically gives you a scope with record depth = hard disk size
[18:14:32] <SWPadnos> and not RT
[18:14:40] <jmkasunich> but it is
[18:14:48] <SWPadnos> oh. RT and stdin?
[18:14:52] <jmkasunich> sampler and streamer both consist of two parts
[18:14:59] <SWPadnos> ok - like halscope
[18:15:14] <tomp> jmk, this morning a guy asked EMC USERS group about streaming traj coordinates thru HAL, Greg Pettit, sounds like what you new stuff is, (gotta go bye bye)
[18:15:14] <jmkasunich> sampler for example: RT part captures data to a fifo, user part reads the fifo and prints to stdout
[18:15:31] <SWPadnos> I guess he missed your reply ;)
[18:15:35] <jmkasunich> you can start and stop the user part at will (ctrl-c to stop it)
[18:15:43] <jmkasunich> guess so
[18:16:17] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking for sampler the user part will echo a single blank line if an overrun happens (if the fifo gets full for any reason)
[18:16:40] <jmkasunich> streamer also has two parts, RT is constantly reading the fifo, user dumps data into it
[18:16:47] <SWPadnos> or just prepend a * to the next line or something
[18:17:08] <jmkasunich> when the data runs out, the pins will hold their previous value
[18:17:14] <jmkasunich> I thought about the *
[18:17:19] <SWPadnos> there should also be a mode to run in ring buffer mode, though that's a little trickier, since the writer has to update both the head and tail indices
[18:17:26] <jmkasunich> a blank line impises less burden on whatever is parsing the lines
[18:17:51] <jmkasunich> you mean for the streamer, to play back over and over the same stuff?
[18:17:51] <SWPadnos> depends on what they're using to parse, I guess
[18:18:06] <SWPadnos> actually, I was thinking of the other direction, but yes - that would also be cool
[18:18:10] <SWPadnos> function generator like
[18:18:30] <jmkasunich> I guess I don't understand ring buffer mode for the sampler
[18:18:31] <SWPadnos> start and stop indices, and the RT part loops through them continuously
[18:18:49] <SWPadnos> oldest sample gets thrown away instead of the most recent
[18:19:00] <jmkasunich> oh, I was gonna do that
[18:19:02] <SWPadnos> it's still an overrun, but you always have the most recent N samples in the buffer
[18:19:04] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:19:22] <jmkasunich> the idea is that you must load the RT part first anyway
[18:19:29] <SWPadnos> you have a litte bit of a race condition, since the writer and reader have to change "out"
[18:19:40] <SWPadnos> (in the nomenclature of your email)
[18:19:41] <jmkasunich> so when you start the user part, you will get one fifo full of the most recent data, and then it will keep coming
[18:19:47] <SWPadnos> right
[18:19:55] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: I have a somehow different fix to the problem you had..
[18:20:02] <alex_joni> I'll commit now, can you test?
[18:20:02] <jmkasunich> if I discarded new on an overrun, you'd get one fifo full of ancient data, then an overrun marker, then current data
[18:20:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[18:20:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh, ok
[18:20:31] <alex_joni> better remove the local halui.cc
[18:20:33] <SWPadnos> right - that's how the system in your email would work, and that's what I assumed you were doing
[18:20:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:20:38] <alex_joni> that way you'll get the fresh one
[18:20:40] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: yeah, I'll do that best I can there
[18:20:42] <SWPadnos> but you're thinking about it, which is good ;)
[18:20:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yep
[18:21:20] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: use a default timeout value, seems that's the way other GUI's are handling it
[18:21:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's changes with the fix?
[18:21:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> changed
[18:21:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> compared to "my" fix
[18:21:52] <SWPadnos> instead of infinite wait (how it was) or no wait (what you changed it to), it's a "predetermined wait time"
[18:21:52] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: there's a timeout for unanswered commands to fail
[18:21:54] <jmkasunich> if it turns out to be impossible to avoid races, maybe I'll have the user space progam discard the ancient data, and just start printing after the overrun mark
[18:22:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[18:22:05] <alex_joni> what SWPadnos put so nicely :)
[18:22:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is the wait in the range of µs, ms, or S?
[18:22:25] <alex_joni> 1 sec. I think
[18:22:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's quite a long wait IMO
[18:22:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> isn't halui RT-land?
[18:23:01] <SWPadnos> you can possibly use two "out" indexes, and an overrun flag. if (overrun
[18:23:05] <alex_joni> no, userspace
[18:23:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[18:23:20] <SWPadnos> you can possibly use two "out" indexes, and an overrun flag. if (overrun) consumer out = producer out;
[18:23:33] <SWPadnos> then there's a race resetting the flag though ;)
[18:23:35] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: you can probably decrease the value if it feels.. odd
[18:23:40] <alex_joni> just test and tell me too :)
[18:23:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[18:23:47] <SWPadnos> make it a halui parameter ;)
[18:23:58] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I'd rather not complicate the ini even more
[18:24:07] <alex_joni> at least not with parameters people won't ever change
[18:24:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is there anything that changes that 1S delay if it hits the timeout often?
[18:24:18] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - I was going to suggest that the overrun reporting use a parameter to choose the threshold
[18:24:25] <SWPadnos> (in motion)
[18:24:31] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: I don't suspect that you get it very often
[18:24:43] <SWPadnos> I'd do it, but I have no Linux machines running ATM :(
[18:24:44] <pier> hi everybody... just to have some feedback on this file ... thanks
[18:24:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> well I could get it easily when jogging with kb and wheels
[18:24:47] <pier> http://pastebin.ca/160788
[18:25:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and some other time when only using KB and then wheels
[18:25:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, another thing I noticed, there's lots of latency when KB jogging, around 250ms up to 2S
[18:25:58] <alex_joni> that's because of the GUI
[18:26:04] <alex_joni> but 2s seems like way too much
[18:26:07] <alex_joni> what GUI are you using?
[18:26:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> axis
[18:26:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> base period of 20µs
[18:26:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 800mhz
[18:26:35] <alex_joni> is the system somehow sluggish ?
[18:26:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> axis tool updates twice per second or so
[18:26:46] <alex_joni> if you drag the window around?
[18:26:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> well, definetly more slugglish when running EMC than when not running it
[18:27:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if I start emc and run other apps
[18:27:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the other apps are around 2-3 times as slow
[18:27:46] <alex_joni> then probably you're pretty much at the limit
[18:27:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[18:28:07] <alex_joni> maybe then there's no surprise that it's slow sometimes
[18:28:11] <pier> and this one http://pastebin.ca/160794 thanks for any advice
[18:28:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe I should set base_period to around 30-40µs then?
[18:28:30] <alex_joni> if you don't need that high pulse output..
[18:28:34] <alex_joni> maybe 25-30
[18:28:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm
[18:28:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> highest pulse I/O is spindle encoder
[18:29:01] <alex_joni> sometimes even 22 is way better than 20 ;)
[18:29:11] <alex_joni> but you know what they say..
[18:29:18] <alex_joni> if it ain't broken.. don't fix it
[18:29:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> IIRC it's only high for 25µs when running at 3200 rpm (not like I could do threads at 3200rpm with a 600mm/min lathe...)
[18:31:05] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra: you can calculate the max spindkle speed during threading as a function of thread pitch
[18:31:23] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: got your threaded rod?
[18:31:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:31:40] <jmkasunich> then figure out the finest thread you might make, calc the max spindle speed, and set base_period to so you can count at that speed, with 15-25% margin
[18:31:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's trivial really. I can't imagine doing threads tighter than 0.1mm
[18:31:49] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: not yet
[18:31:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is 15-25 enough?
[18:32:12] <jmkasunich> 600mm /min at 0.1mm pitch is 6000 rpm :-(
[18:32:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[18:32:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I see
[18:32:39] <alex_joni> .1mm pitch??
[18:32:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> mostly though I don't do stuff tighter than 0.7 or so
[18:32:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah insane tight
[18:32:58] <jmkasunich> thats better, about 1000 rpm
[18:33:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:33:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can't help but imagine that there would be aliasing errors with only 15-25% margin compared to 100%+ margin
[18:33:41] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: got around to test?
[18:33:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err, not yet >.<
[18:33:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> just a sec
[18:34:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni grins
[18:35:57] <robin_sz> meep?
[18:37:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> meep
[18:38:26] <robin_sz> so, going well?
[18:38:48] <robin_sz> today was crap.
[18:39:00] <robin_sz> several timewaster jobs .. wasted time made almost nothing
[18:39:11] <robin_sz> remind me to say no to wasters occasionally
[18:39:42] <alex_joni> robin_sz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O_5ef49N5I
[18:39:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: so what do I test?
[18:39:52] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: keep stressing it
[18:40:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and do what?
[18:40:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> see if it stops responding?
[18:40:19] <alex_joni> see how long it stops responding
[18:40:44] <alex_joni> and if you're comfortable with it :)
[18:40:59] <robin_sz> alex_joni, ugh .. they seem to have changed something on youtube .. its complaining about flash version
[18:41:07] <alex_joni> robin_sz: oopsy..
[18:41:30] <alex_joni> "You have version 8,0,22,0 installed"
[18:41:38] <alex_joni> robin_sz: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/about/
[18:45:51] <robin_sz> hmmm
[18:45:53] <robin_sz> 3/10
[18:45:56] <robin_sz> must try harder
[18:46:18] <robin_sz> I presume its based on some song or other that is popular?
[18:46:32] <alex_joni> indeed
[18:46:38] <robin_sz> right.
[18:46:50] <robin_sz> I guess being familiar with the song would make it funnier then
[18:47:41] <alex_joni> 'tis this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aHdBEcBJHo&search=my%20cubicle%20office%20prank%20james%20blunt%20beautiful%20parody%20singapore%20canon%2020D%20judhi%20indi
[18:48:40] <robin_sz> James Blunt?
[18:48:45] <alex_joni> yeah..
[18:48:47] <alex_joni> know him?
[18:48:54] <robin_sz> never heard of him
[18:49:24] <robin_sz> I think I got left behind in music terms when I threw the TV away
[18:49:50] <alex_joni> no radio?
[18:50:08] <alex_joni> long string tied to your teeth ?
[18:50:09] <robin_sz> mmmm ... yeah, I have one in the car
[18:50:27] <robin_sz> but i listen only to BBC Radio 4
[18:50:55] <robin_sz> its a bit like a UK version on the BBC World Service ...
[18:51:20] <alex_joni> oh.. funny
[18:52:25] <robin_sz> I tend to listen to stuff like Metallica, Nirvana, Linkin Park, Led Zeppelin, Alice Cooper, Iron Maiden etc etc
[18:52:51] <robin_sz> Rush, AC/DC
[18:53:05] <alex_joni> ever tried stratovarius?
[18:53:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: 1 S is IMO a bit much
[18:53:15] <robin_sz> nope
[18:53:20] <alex_joni> robin_sz: do it
[18:53:27] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: ok, so you get to feel it?
[18:53:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I found them a bit too much electric guitar + speed drummy
[18:53:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[18:53:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> any reason not to have ~250ms?
[18:53:57] <alex_joni> robin_sz: they have some nice songs involving orchestras
[18:53:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or something like that
[18:54:02] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: I can think of one :)
[18:54:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ooh, nice
[18:54:14] <alex_joni> remote GUI's over crappy lines ..
[18:54:23] <alex_joni> you get easily 250msec latency
[18:54:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: you don't know of anything similar to kamelot perhaps?
[18:54:33] <alex_joni> kamelot?
[18:54:41] <alex_joni> no.. but I like Komödia :D
[18:54:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> power/symphonic metal band
[18:57:44] <robin_sz> hmmm ... "Forever" was a bit limp
[18:58:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> forever from?
[18:58:31] <robin_sz> stratovarious that alex recommended
[18:58:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, right
[18:59:00] <robin_sz> lets try "hammerfall" see if thats any better ...
[18:59:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh noes
[18:59:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I have bad assosiations with that since they spammed swedish radios with a really (IMO) crappy song called hearts on fire
[19:02:02] <robin_sz> hmm "balck diamond" is quite good ...
[19:02:06] <robin_sz> black
[19:02:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> check out kamelot too while you're at it
[19:03:47] <alex_joni> robin_sz: try 4000 rainy nights
[19:03:52] <alex_joni> kinda like a slow song
[19:03:58] <alex_joni> but nice
[19:04:04] <alex_joni> or even "stratovarius"
[19:04:11] <alex_joni> or "hunting high and low"
[19:04:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that one's nice
[19:05:58] <robin_sz> hmm ... not bad
[19:06:56] <robin_sz> ive been making the children watch Lordi a lot recently ;)
[19:07:04] <robin_sz> good for them ... gives them nightmares
[19:07:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if you like that then check out the domimoin -> karma albums from kamelot
[19:10:51] <robin_sz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSxApgUBMJ8
[19:16:41] <robin_sz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpyHtNRB0Ew
[19:26:41] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, inkjet
[19:26:44] <A-L-P-H-A> http://carlos.negativetaco.com/images/pwnd.jpg
[19:29:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[19:31:55] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: I can't read that..
[19:32:02] <jmkasunich> liar
[19:33:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi jmk
[19:34:02] <jmkasunich> hi
[19:34:49] <simon78> I am having troubles getting axis started in CVS. I have checked out HEAD according to the instructions on the wiki, and compiled in-place according to README. I then changed the DISPLAY to axis in stepper_mm.ini.
[19:35:22] <alex_joni> simon78: what's the error?
[19:35:30] <simon78> wait...
[19:35:48] <simon78> im trying to copy/paste between vnc and here...
[19:38:20] <simon78> Can't execute DISPLAY program /home/simon/emc-cvs/emc2/bin/axis
[19:38:20] <simon78> Shutting down and cleaning up EMC...
[19:38:20] <simon78> /home/simon/emc-cvs/emc2/scripts/emc: line 315: axis-remote: kommando
[19:38:20] <simon78> hittades inte
[19:38:40] <simon78> kommando hittades inte == command not found
[19:39:22] <simon78> i first thought that /home/simon/emc-cvs/emc2/bin/axis did exist but it does not
[19:39:38] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni... uhuh... sure sure
[19:40:14] <A-L-P-H-A> free food next door... ciao y'all
[19:40:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ooh, looks like we've got us another bork bork bork person here
[19:40:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> tjena simon78
[19:40:34] <A-L-P-H-A> PORK chops on the bbq. :)
[19:40:48] <simon78> tjenixen
[19:42:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bt6K521o3Y <-- this is very suspicious
[19:43:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it doesn't look faked
[19:43:13] <alex_joni> simon78: are you sure you have all python stuff needed to build axis ?
[19:43:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the limbs move and all
[19:43:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> movement is erratic though
[19:44:36] <jmkasunich> feed the fish a small steel ball, put powerfull magnets underneath
[19:45:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah that would work
[19:45:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shallow water too, so they're "stuck" to the bottom
[19:45:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> easier yet, glue magnets to the bottom
[19:45:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe their stomache isn't low-down
[19:46:19] <jmkasunich> true
[19:46:45] <robin_sz> coo.
[19:46:52] <jmkasunich> but glued magnets would be visible from the side (not from that camera angle tho)
[19:46:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[19:47:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if you look around 0:44 though it looks like they did stir up the water
[19:47:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> when turning around
[19:47:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that might be hard to emulate with magnets
[19:47:37] <robin_sz> hmmm
[19:47:56] <jmkasunich> they stay in formation too well to be free-swimming
[19:48:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[19:48:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's what I was thinking
[19:48:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> they must be live fish though
[19:49:19] <jmkasunich> no doubt about that
[19:51:59] <robin_sz> seen the criss angel stuff?
[19:52:11] <robin_sz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekj0LkSod6k
[19:54:25] <robin_sz> some of his stuff is pretty weird
[19:57:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> strange
[19:57:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> still with all the zooming they were doing it's trivial to cut the clip
[19:58:48] <alex_joni> there is no zooming after he stepped out
[19:59:28] <jmkasunich> no camera angles that show the view straight up either
[19:59:41] <jmkasunich> (show the crane that is suspending him)
[19:59:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> huh?
[19:59:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which of them?
[20:00:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the walk bulind
[20:00:16] <jmkasunich> oops
[20:00:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err
[20:00:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> building
[20:00:46] <jmkasunich> I didn't look at the criss angel one, but someone posted one before where "floats" between two buildings
[20:00:56] <jmkasunich> I assumed this was the same one
[20:01:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[20:01:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nope
[20:09:31] <alex_joni> Chris: I hate the way flash slows browsers down
[20:09:31] <alex_joni> Steve: Try java, that slows it down much better
[20:11:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night
[20:15:15] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
[20:15:15] <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
[20:18:16] <robin_sz> here .. try and explain this one then ...
[20:18:32] <robin_sz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MLPS9Zq2nM
[20:18:45] <robin_sz> its not in english ... but you can guess most of it ..
[20:19:10] <jmkasunich> I don't have audio anyway, so that's not an issue
[20:20:53] <alex_joni> darn... need to make a presentation :(
[20:24:19] <alex_joni> robin_sz: not that hard
[20:24:48] <alex_joni> 2 coins, you can see he holds one in his right hand (after he made it go through the glass)
[20:26:55] <robin_sz> ok ... and the salt pot?
[20:27:01] <alex_joni> probably a magnet
[20:27:16] <alex_joni> oh.. didn't see he got it through ;)
[20:27:23] <robin_sz> yip
[20:47:41] <alex_joni> robin_sz: http://www.ulixes.de/media/vid/lw-hi.mpg
[20:51:04] <jmkasunich> slick
[20:51:20] <alex_joni> probably know this one: http://www.wtec.org/robotics/workshop/MOV/quro_fandance.wmv
[20:52:09] <alex_joni> this one's also cool: http://wwwrobot.gmc.ulaval.ca/films/MARS.mpg
[20:53:33] <jmkasunich> bummer, VLC won't play the wmv one
[20:54:05] <alex_joni> you need w32codecs
[20:54:09] <alex_joni> it's in multiverse
[20:54:38] <alex_joni> 4 humanoid robots doing a synchronized dance..
[20:54:43] <alex_joni> not sure you wanna see that :D
[20:55:50] <jmkasunich> I'll pass
[20:55:53] <jmkasunich> the hand one is coo tho
[20:56:34] <jmkasunich> cool even
[21:01:21] <alex_joni> coo is british
[21:01:31] <jmkasunich> coo is a typo
[21:01:45] <alex_joni> I think it's also a word :D
[21:03:55] <alex_joni> I read some older english book lately
[21:03:59] <alex_joni> and they used "coo" a lot
[21:04:10] <alex_joni> and this way way before internet & typos :D
[21:04:18] <jmkasunich> heh
[21:05:44] <alex_joni> coo and cor iirc
[21:06:02] <jmkasunich> cor blimey!
[21:06:25] <jmkasunich> "God blind me!"
[21:06:59] <alex_joni> cor blimey! [contr God blind me!] intj :
[21:07:00] <alex_joni> [the quintessential Cockney exclamation] syn. jeeze!
[21:13:57] <tomp> good evening all
[21:17:29] <alex_joni> hi tomp
[21:20:24] <robin_sz> alex_joni, neat bot. does it get bored of all those sausages?
[21:22:46] <alex_joni> those are veggy sausages
[21:29:31] <jmkasunich> so it gets bored sooner
[21:30:53] <davidf> hi
[21:31:47] <davidf> My mill is finally working right. :)
[21:32:22] <jmkasunich> yay!
[21:32:30] <jmkasunich> got a different computer?
[21:32:35] <davidf> :) Yes.
[21:32:46] <davidf> A Pii 450 MHz
[21:33:03] <davidf> slow but works fine for my mini mill.
[21:33:34] <davidf> Just cut my test file 10 times. 70 minutes continuous running, no errors.
[21:34:00] <alex_joni> great
[21:34:19] <davidf> Bet you guys are gladder than me maybe. You get a vacation. :)
[21:34:28] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[21:34:46] <robin_sz> congrats davidf, sounds like you have a worker ...
[21:35:11] <robin_sz> sometimes its not simply getting a faster machine .. its getting a more suitable machine ..
[21:35:40] <robin_sz> a "classic" architecture Pii is oftne more stable than a "on board everything" celery.
[21:35:53] <davidf> right.
[21:36:35] <jmkasunich> soon we're gonna have to start hoarding older PCs
[21:36:51] <davidf> I still can get 45 in / minute according to the numbers but I'm running at 30 which is plenty fast on this little mill.
[21:38:20] <davidf> This install of Breezy wont let a regular user mount the floppy drive though. I have to do a sudo mount / umount. That's a pain but it works.
[21:38:46] <jmkasunich> you should be able to fix that with an incantation in /etc/fstab
[21:38:51] <robin_sz> is there a "floppy" group?
[21:38:58] <davidf> I think there must be a script that runs on bootup that gives group permission for that in the regular install.
[21:39:07] <robin_sz> maybe adding the user to the floppy group ? shrug
[21:39:20] <davidf> Any idea where that script would be so I can have a look?
[21:39:27] <robin_sz> in Ubuntu?
[21:39:31] <robin_sz> no clue.
[21:40:06] <jmkasunich> it works here (or would, if I had a floppy in the drive)
[21:40:10] <jmkasunich> the line:
[21:40:18] <jmkasunich> /dev/fd0 /media/floppy0 auto rw,user,noauto 0 0
[21:40:20] <davidf> jmkasunich, I thought so, but the files on both machines are identical, so there is something else.
[21:40:35] <jmkasunich> in /etc/fstab says "a user can mount the floppy"
[21:40:44] <jmkasunich> using "mount /dev/fd0"
[21:41:20] <davidf> ok, I'll do it that way I guess. Believe it or not I actually figgered that much out myself already. Aren't you proud of me :)
[21:41:38] <jmkasunich> what other way is there?
[21:42:10] <davidf> just read what you have to say.
[21:42:25] <davidf> & bug the hell out of you.
[21:43:55] <tomp> jmk, could you send me the reply you made to gpettit about streaming traj posns ?( i just deleted it :-( & it was very interesting )
[21:45:13] <jmkasunich> thats why we have archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=30462935&forum_id=33140
[21:45:21] <tomp> thanks
[21:45:43] <jmkasunich> what I'm proposing for him is very much _not_ suitable for any g-code machine
[21:45:59] <jmkasunich> there is no EMC at all in my proposal
[21:46:12] <jmkasunich> its more of a motion playback machine only
[21:46:53] <jmkasunich> btw, I'm in the process of writing the stdin to hal pin streamer that I described in the mail, in a more general form
[21:47:06] <jmkasunich> it will be part of the standard HAL when I'm done
[21:49:01] <davidf> jmkasunich, I misunderstood your question. The other way is something about giving permissions with a script at bootup, that involves group permissions. It was over my head though, so I thought I'd try to find any scripts that run at boot in the install that works, on the old machine, that's all.
[21:49:33] <jmkasunich> if you specify "user" in the fstab line, no permissions are needed
[21:49:44] <jmkasunich> much simpler
[21:49:53] <davidf> I thought you meant what other way was there ti figure it out besides by myself. :)
[21:49:59] <jmkasunich> oh
[21:50:05] <davidf> OK. Sounds like it. Thanks.
[21:50:25] <davidf> That's why I said just bug you is the other way. ;)
[21:53:03] <davidf> 'Thanks' sounds pretty lame to try to tell you guys how much I appreciate so much help. But I surely do.
[21:53:10] <jmkasunich> no problem
[21:56:09] <tomp> jmk, i read the post about traj streaming, and understand there is just playback. i saw the 2 func's fifo_write & fifo_read, but
[21:56:39] <tomp> is there a way to abort the last command and get a new one in the que ( stop what you were doing and do this instead? )
[21:56:53] <jmkasunich> no
[21:57:04] <jmkasunich> there _is_ no command
[21:57:07] <tomp> :-(
[21:57:27] <alex_joni> tomp: unless you design it from the beginning to be smarter
[21:57:38] <alex_joni> but it's not something you'd want for EDM
[21:57:44] <jmkasunich> each entry in that scheme is just a position, where the machine should be 1/500 second from the previous position
[21:57:59] <jmkasunich> if that position is too far to reach in 1/500 of a second, too bad
[21:58:19] <jmkasunich> there is no traj planning at all
[21:58:27] <jmkasunich> in fact, its the exact opposite of what you want
[21:58:38] <tomp> if i wanted to generate the correct posns >now< and continuously stream them, that'd be edm ( posn delta < .010")
[21:58:55] <jmkasunich> emc has g-code, which describes a path in high level terms - then the TP generates the moment by moment position
[21:59:06] <jmkasunich> and there is _some_ ability to tweak it (feed override, etc)
[21:59:10] <jmkasunich> you want _more_ ability
[21:59:28] <jmkasunich> while greg wants to run a pre-planned trajectory with no changes at all
[22:00:21] <tomp> i was thinking of non-g-code, and interpolationg outside emc, streaming poses like greg, not pre planned, calc'd every 2mS.
[22:00:59] <jmkasunich> you are talking about sinker?
[22:01:03] <tomp> yes
[22:01:37] <jmkasunich> sinker doesn't use g-code at all does it?
[22:02:06] <tomp> doesnt need gcode, there were other hi-level langs, but we're talking about lo lvel, immediate posn requests
[22:02:28] <tomp> (some used gcode, some didnt)
[22:02:56] <jmkasunich> what would you use g-code (or any high level language) for - there is no toolpath to describe, is there?
[22:03:02] <jmkasunich> other than "go down"
[22:03:31] <jmkasunich> I know about orbiting and such, but thats not a path in the normal sense, it kind of gets made up as you go along
[22:03:40] <jmkasunich> doesn't it?
[22:04:58] <tomp> there can be paths, there can be patterns, but the immediate pose desired can be determined despite the language of Gcode, CL , etc
[22:05:24] <tomp> I'd like to ask emc to go here now, then say go here now, every 2 ms
[22:05:38] <tomp> or less
[22:06:20] <jmkasunich> right now, the higher level user space code (interp + gui) tells the motion controller "go there, at this speed, following this path (arc or line)"
[22:06:48] <jmkasunich> then the motion controller takes that and outputs a set of position commands every 1mS
[22:06:56] <jmkasunich> HAL takes those and makes the motors go there
[22:07:14] <jmkasunich> it sounds like you want to replace the first two steps?
[22:07:38] <tomp> yes ( still considering all aspects, but yes)
[22:07:56] <tomp> i want to take control of where i should be >now<
[22:08:28] <jmkasunich> are you replacing the motion controller?
[22:08:34] <jmkasunich> thats is reasonably easy
[22:08:54] <jmkasunich> but keeping it, then kicking it in the teeth and saying "no, don't go where I told you, go here", that gets ugly
[22:09:48] <tomp> still learning what the motion controller is and where it's edges are, but i have no need for FE, speed loops, just immediate posn along a 3d vector.
[22:10:38] <tomp> at time1 i might be 90% into the vector (a tiny fragment of the path), at time 2 70%, at time 3 back to 90
[22:10:44] <jmkasunich> are you comfortable with halcmd?
[22:10:57] <tomp> not yet, but am studying
[22:11:01] <jmkasunich> ok
[22:11:17] <jmkasunich> for finding edges, especially at the lower levels, its a good tool
[22:11:25] <jmkasunich> halcmd show can tell you alot
[22:11:39] <jmkasunich> anyway, back to the motion controller
[22:12:04] <tomp> but the idea, can i give a new request if the last request wasnt finished/satisfied?
[22:12:22] <jmkasunich> the controller we have is designed to take a sequence of possibly long vectors and travel along the path they define
[22:12:29] <jmkasunich> blending corners and otherwise modifying them
[22:12:33] <jmkasunich> and never backing up
[22:13:03] <jmkasunich> if you tell it to move in a line from point A to point B, your options before it arrives at B are limited to:
[22:13:13] <jmkasunich> 1) wait for it to get there
[22:13:26] <jmkasunich> 2) tell it to abort, which stops all motion and does other stuff you don't want
[22:13:58] <tomp> this is the limitation of the current motion controller, not the lower level execution-er??
[22:13:59] <jmkasunich> so no, you can't give a new request if the last wasn't finished
[22:14:16] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I was thinking about one thing.. how about allowing the adaptive feed override to go negative?
[22:14:28] <alex_joni> then fix the TP to go backwards (which will be the hard part)
[22:14:29] <jmkasunich> the TP can't handle that
[22:14:56] <jmkasunich> you _might_ be able to fix the TP to go backwards for the length of a single line or arc
[22:15:02] <jmkasunich> but you can't back up farther than that
[22:15:03] <alex_joni> tomp: not much lower than motion controller
[22:15:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: not sure it's needed
[22:15:12] <jmkasunich> and with blending, even that much is a mess
[22:15:28] <jmkasunich> tomp needs a _different_ motion controller
[22:15:30] <tomp> edm velocites dont need much blending
[22:15:33] <alex_joni> I know of a million examples where it's not enough.. I agree
[22:15:55] <jmkasunich> right - blending at those speeds is irrelevant
[22:16:12] <jmkasunich> but there is a ton of extremely complex code in there to do it anyway
[22:16:31] <jmkasunich> making an already complex TP back up is just about impossiblethat
[22:16:33] <jmkasunich> oops
[22:16:38] <jmkasunich> s/that//
[22:17:02] <robin_sz> I can think of one way ...
[22:17:08] <jmkasunich> but if your motion requirements are simpler, then maybe a _simple_ TP that can back up is reasonable
[22:17:25] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: ?
[22:17:35] <robin_sz> could we not just stuff segments into memory as we spit them out of the tp ...
[22:17:48] <robin_sz> then just walk back up them?
[22:17:50] <jmkasunich> out the tp?
[22:17:58] <jmkasunich> the tp spits out positions, not segments
[22:18:01] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: positions
[22:18:04] <robin_sz> sure ..
[22:18:07] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:18:18] <robin_sz> but its still only 20K a second right?
[22:18:26] <tomp> i suggest i determine where to be now , outside of emc. it is not back up, it is just a new target posn every nMsecs ( no tp )
[22:18:29] <alex_joni> less
[22:18:38] <alex_joni> you have about 1k / second positions
[22:18:38] <robin_sz> I doubt an edm needs more than 5 seconds worht of backtrack
[22:19:03] <jmkasunich> tomp: I (and I suspect everyone else in here) have no idea what you mean when you say "I determine where to be now outside of emc"
[22:19:23] <jmkasunich> what piece of code is "I"
[22:19:30] <alex_joni> some external code
[22:19:46] <alex_joni> I think he wants to switch off the motion controller/tp, and take over
[22:19:51] <tomp> i look at where i amd, and the current gap volatge and calc the new posn ( closer or further or stay put ) I determine it and feed it to the motion
[22:19:53] <jmkasunich> realtime code I assume, or else the concept of "now" is silly
[22:20:14] <robin_sz> hmmm
[22:20:22] <jmkasunich> but how do you know what direction is "closer"?
[22:20:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: probing different directions :D
[22:20:40] <jmkasunich> is ti always -Z?
[22:20:47] <jmkasunich> s/ti/it/
[22:20:48] <alex_joni> * alex_joni stops kidding
[22:21:01] <jmkasunich> this is bad enough without kidding to confuse it
[22:21:05] <robin_sz> this is "nervous motion" style EDM right?
[22:21:31] <tomp> I ( the ecternal app) knows the path,, I know the vector in space, I know the posn where i am 'now' I calc the new posn and somehow get that posn executed
[22:21:42] <jmkasunich> here we go again
[22:21:45] <jmkasunich> what external app?
[22:21:51] <jmkasunich> is it reading the g-code to know the path
[22:22:08] <jmkasunich> is emc reading the g-code and the external app somehow following along?
[22:22:22] <jmkasunich> or is the path described in some totally different way?
[22:22:24] <alex_joni> is it some part of emc ?
[22:22:38] <robin_sz> sounds like you dont actually need emc at all then ... if you can parse code, plan trajectories and provide feedback all from your app, emc is pretty much irrelevant
[22:22:41] <tomp> hypothetical external app, no need to write what cannot be done. I ask if an immediate posn can be done. gcode is irrelevant. not part of emc
[22:23:35] <alex_joni> tomp: I think this is just a matter of moving the problem around
[22:23:41] <jmkasunich> if you have _any_ app that can produce a desired position every 1mS, HAL can make motors go there
[22:23:50] <jmkasunich> and you _don't_ need any other part of EMC
[22:24:09] <tomp> and can HAL ignore the unfinisihed part of the motion?
[22:24:20] <alex_joni> tomp: you feed positions to HAL
[22:24:23] <jmkasunich> HAL don't know shite about unfinished stuff
[22:24:29] <jmkasunich> it lives for the moment
[22:24:31] <alex_joni> if you keep feeding the same position, it'll just stop
[22:24:55] <tomp> thank you very very much, now I can see where to study & test
[22:25:27] <alex_joni> tomp: however, I suspect it will be _really_ hard to write an app that feeds positions every 1msec
[22:25:38] <jmkasunich> exactly!
[22:25:40] <alex_joni> not the timing I'm concearned
[22:25:49] <jmkasunich> when it comes down to it, thats what EMC _is_
[22:26:03] <jmkasunich> an app that takes a high level description of a motion, and generates positions every 1mS
[22:26:08] <alex_joni> but it's a lot of work, getting the data from userspace (file), then interpret it, plan it, divide in pieces, etc
[22:26:14] <jmkasunich> and it took many man years to get there
[22:26:31] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: and it's a tiny bit bloated :D
[22:26:37] <tomp> I've written interpolators ( not real time ) and interpretors for machinist languages ( not gcode) not an expert, but I've made stuff move & work
[22:26:41] <jmkasunich> well, it tries to be all things to all people
[22:26:50] <jmkasunich> I suspect tomp's needs are more narrowly defined
[22:27:15] <alex_joni> right, and starting with his definitions I suspect it's probable to redo in under one year
[22:27:25] <alex_joni> one man year
[22:27:29] <robin_sz> wasn;t someone else looking at EDM?
[22:27:42] <jmkasunich> there were wire edm folks at the workshop
[22:27:48] <jmkasunich> we came up with adaptive feed for them
[22:27:52] <robin_sz> right
[22:27:59] <tomp> Dave E , Mac, ... RayH
[22:28:08] <jmkasunich> the ability to set feedrate from 0.0 to 1.0 in realtime, but not negative
[22:28:14] <robin_sz> right
[22:28:27] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ElectricalDischargeMachining
[22:28:36] <robin_sz> I presume you have heard of "nervous motion" style edm?
[22:28:48] <jmkasunich> tomp: this vector you keep talking about? is that the vector tangent to the programmed toolpath at any moment in time?
[22:29:51] <tomp> the vector is the linear path segment, a simplified bit of the contour for a tiny bit of time, no tangent, in line
[22:30:10] <jmkasunich> tangent means parallel to, aka in lin
[22:30:12] <jmkasunich> line
[22:30:16] <tomp> dx dy dz da db dc
[22:30:21] <jmkasunich> right
[22:30:24] <alex_joni> it is tangent, if you take into account the path is not linear
[22:30:26] <jmkasunich> thats exactlywhat I said
[22:30:37] <jmkasunich> ok, so we are on the same page
[22:30:53] <jmkasunich> segment and vector are two different things tho
[22:31:17] <tomp> a segment is a len along a vector
[22:31:33] <jmkasunich> right - a segment goes from some place to some other place
[22:31:45] <tomp> a tiny task i request
[22:31:46] <jmkasunich> a vector goes off in some direction, but for no particular distance
[22:31:59] <robin_sz> I think I understand ... basically, imagen say the X axis, its trying to move along as fast as it can, but is limited by say,. maintianing a flashover voltage .. if the voltage get too low, it slows down or even backs up .. if you watch the servos on one of these style edms, they apear "nervous" ... erratically going forward or evne backing up
[22:32:38] <tomp> yes, a vector is often thought as infinite, yes nervous
[22:32:38] <robin_sz> its easy to imagine for one axis ... just apply that to 2D space
[22:33:13] <tomp> 6 analog volktages proportionate to the components of the vector/segment
[22:33:15] <robin_sz> you dont set a feed rate on one of these style machines you just set say an arc voltage and it goes as fast as it can
[22:33:49] <jmkasunich> it sounds like you _do_ need to keep the g-code and the TP, to avoid re-inventing the wheel
[22:34:13] <jmkasunich> then you need to tap the internals, to get the "velocity" vector (thats the vector tomp's been talking about)
[22:35:14] <jmkasunich> one difficulty will be that the vector becomes undefined when feed override or adaptive feed goes to zero
[22:35:22] <tomp> i think velocity is determined by process, and mererly governed ( capped/truncated) by program.
[22:35:22] <jmkasunich> but you can remember the previous vector
[22:35:32] <jmkasunich> no
[22:35:37] <jmkasunich> speed is determined by process
[22:35:54] <tomp> speed diff from velocity?
[22:35:58] <jmkasunich> speed is scalar - a single number describing how fast you move along the vector
[22:35:59] <robin_sz> uh huh
[22:36:04] <jmkasunich> velocity is the vector, six components
[22:36:16] <jmkasunich> direction + speed = velocity
[22:36:32] <jmkasunich> what you really want is direction from the g-code, and speed from the arc voltage
[22:36:33] <tomp> yes a signed value
[22:36:52] <tomp> i want position along the path determined by 'arc' volatge\
[22:37:17] <jmkasunich> that path determined by arc voltage?
[22:37:23] <robin_sz> I can see how that could be used to back up on linear segments ...
[22:37:33] <tomp> the voltage 'now' vs the voltage prescribed = a signed value
[22:37:43] <jmkasunich> I thought the path was determined by g-code? only the position along the path is from the voltage
[22:38:22] <robin_sz> but what about arcs? and what if it needed to back up past a segment end point?
[22:38:27] <jmkasunich> right
[22:38:34] <tomp> i dont back up
[22:38:38] <robin_sz> oh
[22:38:43] <tomp> i run away to a safe place off path
[22:38:52] <tomp> i return to the path
[22:38:52] <robin_sz> !!
[22:39:06] <robin_sz> you cant!
[22:39:23] <robin_sz> the ONLY safe place is back along the path
[22:39:31] <jmkasunich> we're not talking about wire
[22:39:43] <robin_sz> oh, just plain sinker edm?
[22:39:50] <tomp> if i can ask for any pose >now< then 'reverse is a perspective invisible to the controller, and i only speak of sink
[22:39:52] <jmkasunich> sinker: suppose you are orbiting the electrode in a circle - the center of the circle is the safe stop
[22:39:55] <jmkasunich> spot
[22:40:04] <robin_sz> umm is it?
[22:40:14] <tomp> the top of a cone is the safe orbit pose
[22:40:22] <robin_sz> you have to know internl hoel external cut right?
[22:40:24] <tomp> its away from all wall stock
[22:40:39] <tomp> and floor
[22:40:42] <jmkasunich> unless the electrode has a hole in it and a little pillar of metal sticking up into the hole
[22:40:55] <robin_sz> I suppose G41/42 could offer some hint as to which way is safe
[22:41:10] <tomp> there is no goced
[22:41:14] <tomp> g code
[22:41:25] <jmkasunich> but I think electrodes with little pillars fo metal comes under the heading of "don't do that"
[22:41:40] <robin_sz> what about cutting in a slot?
[22:42:05] <tomp> the little pillars go away, the slot is no problem either
[22:42:21] <jmkasunich> cutting a 2mm by 10mm slot using a 1mm x 9mm electrode and a +/- 0.5mm orbit, center is still safe
[22:42:23] <robin_sz> well, you are going down a slot
[22:42:32] <robin_sz> you told me alreadyt you dotn back up
[22:42:49] <robin_sz> wo which is the "safe" direction?
[22:42:59] <robin_sz> hmmm ...
[22:43:13] <tomp> away from the stock
[22:43:18] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich gives up - the communication barriers are too high
[22:43:25] <tomp> you know where that is cuz you came from there
[22:43:26] <jmkasunich> back to coding for me
[22:43:38] <tomp> thanks john
[22:44:04] <robin_sz> I'm still dubious that you can determine "safe" direction at any point that is anyting other than "back where I came from" ie backing up
[22:45:03] <tomp> backing up infers along the path, safe place is just away, there is room to move an electrode ( again this is not wire ) besides backwards
[22:45:35] <alex_joni> there might be room, but I think it involves further calculations or information
[22:45:42] <alex_joni> and it's just a needless complication
[22:46:00] <robin_sz> sure, its just a question of can that be determined just from the information you have, ie position and current velocity
[22:46:04] <tomp> very simply 2 statuc position, no calc needed
[22:46:10] <tomp> static
[22:46:34] <tomp> where i began the rough , and where i began the orbit.
[22:46:39] <tomp> static
[22:46:54] <robin_sz> with knowledge of the part, and geometry yeah, you can work out where safe is ...
[22:47:11] <tomp> without knowledge of the part
[22:48:00] <robin_sz> from just position and velocity?
[22:48:24] <tomp> from just position.
[22:48:34] <robin_sz> ok ... lets try it ...
[22:48:45] <robin_sz> im at X3, Y0 ...
[22:49:11] <robin_sz> please tell me the safe position
[22:49:23] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[22:49:25] <tomp> x3 Y0 cux you didnt move
[22:49:32] <jmkasunich> no!
[22:49:36] <tomp> and you were there already
[22:49:47] <tomp> it must be safe
[22:49:52] <jmkasunich> you said _just_ position
[22:50:00] <robin_sz> nope
[22:50:06] <tomp> did i say anthing besides posn?
[22:50:20] <jmkasunich> you _only_ know where he _is_ not where he _was_ thus you don't know that he didn't mvoe
[22:50:21] <jmkasunich> move
[22:50:43] <robin_sz> and even then just because im here doesnt mean its safe ...
[22:50:48] <tomp> is and was are an identity in his descriprion
[22:50:57] <jmkasunich> to know that he didn't move, you need to know the position from some time ago, and the position now
[22:51:06] <jmkasunich> nope, they aren't
[22:51:16] <jmkasunich> he said "I'm at X3 Y0"
[22:51:23] <jmkasunich> not a word about where he was before
[22:51:53] <robin_sz> Im at X3, Y0 and my arc voltage is way too low .. help me ...!!
[22:51:57] <tomp> ok if we disagree? becus if here is not safe before i begin, then it was (an ugly word )
[22:51:59] <jmkasunich> imagine that "he" is a bit of code trying to do the right thing
[22:52:11] <jmkasunich> you need to explicitly state _any_ information that code needs
[22:52:19] <tomp> if arcV is 0 and i cant run away, then... i cant run away, tell the user
[22:52:29] <robin_sz> no 0
[22:52:41] <tomp> i must have a beginning position that is safe, else I abort.
[22:52:46] <jmkasunich> in reality, he _did_ get to X3 Y0 from somewhere
[22:52:51] <jmkasunich> but that is additional information
[22:52:55] <robin_sz> its just too low ... a bit of crud fell into the gap as is does many times a minute during a cut
[22:52:57] <jmkasunich> so - you need that information
[22:53:16] <robin_sz> right ..
[22:53:21] <robin_sz> and that is baking up
[22:53:31] <robin_sz> backing
[22:53:35] <jmkasunich> or it is a human specifying the safe place
[22:53:40] <tomp> he got to X3 Y0 in a mode that should not achive X3 Y0 if there was a short, it was impossible to chagne to EDM mode from rapid mode
[22:53:54] <robin_sz> no I was in EDM mode
[22:54:03] <robin_sz> had been for a while ...
[22:54:07] <tomp> then you didnt begin at X3 Y0
[22:54:17] <jmkasunich> would saying he is at X3.123134 Y0.1232345 help
[22:54:27] <jmkasunich> that is neither the beginning or ending of any line or arc in the g-code
[22:54:33] <jmkasunich> its just a position in space
[22:54:37] <robin_sz> right ...
[22:54:41] <jmkasunich> where he is at this very moment
[22:54:43] <robin_sz> its just where I am now
[22:55:11] <jmkasunich> he doesn't know where he came from, he doesn't know where he's going
[22:55:28] <robin_sz> too true. :)
[22:55:46] <jmkasunich> if it is neccessary to know one or more of those things in order to do the right thing, then we need to spell out exactly what information is needed
[22:56:06] <robin_sz> and ... even if I knew which direction I came from .. I cant easily figure out which side of the path is safe
[22:56:31] <robin_sz> ok, try this ...
[22:56:40] <robin_sz> im heading "up" the X axis
[22:56:40] <tomp> i think I could know where i came from, I think I could tell where I'm going. I think I didnt follow your example because I thought you gave me the initial condition, not an intermediate value
[22:56:53] <robin_sz> im cutting on my left side ...
[22:56:55] <tomp> where did you begin?
[22:57:02] <robin_sz> I began at X0
[22:57:06] <robin_sz> Y0
[22:57:06] <jmkasunich> no, he gave you a pair of numbers that he considered to be the immediate value
[22:57:12] <jmkasunich> they just happened to be round numbers
[22:57:17] <robin_sz> im now at X1 Y0
[22:57:21] <tomp> he considered to be intermediate, not I
[22:57:30] <tomp> ok
[22:57:34] <jmkasunich> you made an assumption
[22:57:34] <robin_sz> and I have additional info, I know my cut is in my left side ...
[22:57:47] <tomp> i raed all that was given me
[22:57:49] <robin_sz> now, voltage is low, which direction shoudl I move?
[22:58:39] <tomp> (again not wire) the safe posn during the rought cut ( what you describe here is backwards) the safe posn during orbit is to top of cone
[22:58:54] <alex_joni> * alex_joni moves in direction of his bed
[22:58:57] <alex_joni> night y'all
[22:58:59] <tomp> nite alex
[22:59:34] <tomp> away is more flexible than backwards, one is subset
[22:59:37] <robin_sz> top of cone? Im deep along one side of a vertical wall on my left side that I am cutting .. what cone?
[22:59:43] <robin_sz> away?
[22:59:49] <robin_sz> I dont knwo where that is ...
[22:59:54] <robin_sz> cut is on my left ...
[23:00:02] <robin_sz> help me voltage is lower now ...
[23:00:24] <robin_sz> should I move right?
[23:00:28] <robin_sz> right and up?
[23:00:28] <jmkasunich> not sure what you mean by "ut is on my left"
[23:00:33] <jmkasunich> cut even
[23:00:36] <tomp> away is towards the pose where the power was turned on. that is sometimes backwards, sometimes 'away' from all the walls surrounding me
[23:00:53] <jmkasunich> by power you mean arc, I hope?
[23:01:02] <jmkasunich> not machine power - that position would be home or something
[23:01:08] <robin_sz> "away from all the walls surrounding me" ... right .. so I need full knowledge of the part geometry
[23:01:15] <tomp> edm cutting power, the pulses that spark ( arc is avoided in edm )
[23:01:29] <jmkasunich> ok spark power
[23:01:47] <jmkasunich> when you talk to computer people about "power turned on", we think "when the computer woke up"
[23:01:52] <tomp> robin, familiar with orbiting?
[23:02:27] <tomp> thats why i speak of cone
[23:02:50] <tomp> thats why there is more room after rough cut, more places to run away
[23:02:55] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, imagine you are the cutting tool .. walking along the X axis, a steep wall on your left side that you are cutting ... behind you is where you came from ahead is .. yet to be seen,
[23:03:06] <jmkasunich> sinkers don't work like that
[23:03:17] <robin_sz> quite,
[23:03:23] <robin_sz> they CAN, on some cuts
[23:03:26] <jmkasunich> if you want a square hole, you plunge a square electrode into the stock
[23:04:11] <robin_sz> moulds can be done that way ...
[23:04:48] <robin_sz> they use a electrode rather like a ball mill and just etch away ...
[23:06:02] <tomp> the ball mill could move towards the center top of the mould
[23:06:12] <tomp> after removing some stock
[23:06:18] <jmkasunich> what if the mold is for a donut
[23:06:21] <jmkasunich> the center is solid
[23:06:26] <tomp> but at first it could only retreat
[23:06:56] <tomp> the donut electrode cuts straight down then wiggles a bit, if a prob, cnetering and up is ok
[23:07:23] <robin_sz> but you need knowledge of the part geometry
[23:07:25] <tomp> the donut hole gives you center posn clearance
[23:07:51] <robin_sz> "back along the path" is the only cetainty
[23:08:06] <tomp> not really, the method of undersizing the tool is 'wrapped into the electrode' . the cutting unwraps that in a suitable way
[23:08:22] <tomp> sphericly undersized electrodes are cut with sperical orbits...
[23:08:24] <robin_sz> ok, so you still have not answered my simple problem ...
[23:08:55] <robin_sz> here I am .. cutting along ... my left side has a steep vertical wall I am cutting
[23:09:02] <robin_sz> ahead of me is material to cut ..
[23:09:15] <robin_sz> behind me is here I came from
[23:09:24] <tomp> yes
[23:09:26] <robin_sz> I say thats the only safe place to go
[23:09:38] <robin_sz> you say there is other solution .. so .. wher is it?
[23:09:54] <tomp> no, the ball mill idea tells you you could go other places,
[23:10:13] <robin_sz> well... here I am .. stuck ... Im waiting ...
[23:10:31] <tomp> can you picture your story with the ball mill, the tiny thing in the big hole?
[23:10:45] <tomp> you can move lots of ways
[23:11:14] <tomp> and some you've been to before ( like where you began the plunge and where you began to refine the form)
[23:11:18] <robin_sz> I know not of the hole .. I only know of the material on my left, and more material infront of me
[23:12:14] <robin_sz> sigh ...
[23:12:29] <robin_sz> so .. now you agree, the only safe way is back, right?
[23:12:52] <tomp> nope, i must agreee i didnt explain things to you very well
[23:13:08] <tomp> and you must agreee that the ball mil has other places to move
[23:13:17] <robin_sz> well, no I dont
[23:13:20] <tomp> (stirke the must)
[23:13:41] <tomp> well i can imageing how to move the ball mill so it isnt rubbing
[23:13:49] <robin_sz> IFF yo have knowledge of the part geomtry, yes, there MIGHT be other safe places
[23:14:28] <tomp> i have knowledge of history. 2 poses that were accomplished. 1 the starting pose, 2 the pose where orbiting began.
[23:14:41] <tomp> that is what i didnt explain correctly
[23:14:51] <robin_sz> but without that knowledge, you cannot determine from your position where that safe place might be ..
[23:15:21] <tomp> correct, i need those 2 poses and wether i have accomplished them correct you are right
[23:15:28] <robin_sz> orbitting is the progressive following of an external contour, starting far out and getting closer in?
[23:15:55] <robin_sz> eating away a bit all the time
[23:16:02] <tomp> i consider it differntly ( excursion from center, not following external contour ) but yes
[23:16:14] <robin_sz> well, OK, so ..
[23:16:23] <robin_sz> here we are going round some complex path
[23:16:35] <tomp> we are sinking
[23:16:44] <tomp> not contouring
[23:17:03] <tomp> but we can dicuss contouring, a differnt idea tho
[23:17:10] <robin_sz> I dont understnad
[23:17:20] <robin_sz> sinking is just straight down
[23:17:30] <robin_sz> contouring is following a contour ...
[23:17:40] <robin_sz> so we are just going straight down right?
[23:17:43] <tomp> sinking is sticking a gi joe into mud and wiggling it about, looking at the hole you make. contouring is die work
[23:17:54] <robin_sz> hole.
[23:17:58] <robin_sz> define hole.
[23:18:02] <robin_sz> square?
[23:18:02] <tomp> depression
[23:18:05] <robin_sz> round?
[23:18:07] <robin_sz> eleiptical
[23:18:15] <robin_sz> eliptical?
[23:18:44] <tomp> formed like the sinking electrode we are imagining, any plastic part in your house that was molded
[23:19:04] <robin_sz> right ...
[23:19:10] <tomp> gi joe lastic action figure
[23:19:15] <tomp> plastic
[23:19:31] <robin_sz> so, die sinking?
[23:19:39] <tomp> yes sinking
[23:19:46] <tomp> not wire
[23:19:52] <robin_sz> take a carbon electrode of the thing you want and push it down
[23:20:06] <tomp> yes
[23:20:10] <robin_sz> then UP is always a safe option
[23:20:13] <tomp> make it smaller
[23:20:28] <robin_sz> but thats NOT the only sort of non-wire edm
[23:20:39] <tomp> up is ok for gi joe, not for frisbee
[23:21:07] <robin_sz> up is OK for ANY shape doen this way
[23:21:09] <tomp> one at a time, well go onto hole, grinding, and wire later
[23:21:34] <tomp> not ok for undercut rings ( sucker rings or threads on pop bottle )
[23:21:46] <robin_sz> true
[23:22:05] <robin_sz> well,
[23:22:14] <robin_sz> hmm. depends
[23:22:30] <tomp> ? pull on a tap!
[23:22:36] <tomp> :-)
[23:22:47] <robin_sz> so .. sinker EDM, non CNC .. just plain old push it down and pull it up if it shorts out
[23:22:58] <tomp> no, cnc
[23:23:10] <tomp> the wiggle is very special
[23:23:18] <robin_sz> I was thinking of 3 axis sinker edm as used in proper mold making
[23:23:18] <tomp> the wiggle is very cnc
[23:23:25] <tomp> so was i
[23:23:48] <tomp> my living is cnc edm, cobersions and mods
[23:23:57] <robin_sz> round elecrode, to make horse shaped hole
[23:23:59] <tomp> conversions ( see my living is not spelling )
[23:24:42] <tomp> no gi joe shape to make gi joe, but at 12 diff power settings that require moving 12 tiny sperical paths
[23:25:14] <robin_sz> right .. well, as I said, UP will always be safe
[23:25:26] <robin_sz> but thats only because I have knowledge of the part :)
[23:25:28] <tomp> only for joe
[23:25:34] <robin_sz> exactly
[23:25:45] <robin_sz> at last we agree
[23:25:46] <tomp> and yes you know, justy like you know you had a tap or a reamer
[23:26:16] <tomp> i think i dotn explain myself well ( or type well or both )
[23:26:35] <tomp> very graphic
[23:26:47] <robin_sz> well, I still stand by what I said.
[23:27:13] <tomp> ok\
[23:27:14] <robin_sz> the only place you GUATRANTEE to be safem always for any tool at any time is ...
[23:27:22] <robin_sz> back along the path
[23:28:30] <tomp> i dont need the path to determine those 2 posns, tho they did exist on the path. I just would rather remeber 2 structs rather than reams of positions
[23:29:50] <tomp> you're right that the safe place is someplace you've been already
[23:30:07] <robin_sz> right
[23:30:13] <robin_sz> and there MAY be others
[23:30:31] <robin_sz> but not possible to calculate fromt he info we have in ALL situations
[23:30:43] <tomp> dont calc, remember
[23:30:52] <tomp> you been there just record
[23:30:58] <robin_sz> exactly!
[23:31:18] <robin_sz> this is wahat I said ages ago .. record your moves in a buffer
[23:32:04] <tomp> i wrote a lot of this on the wiki, you'd be a great critique for it. I may be able to express it better. ( i record 2 poses only, no buffer)
[23:32:26] <robin_sz> well, with only 2 posns, you are screwed
[23:33:08] <tomp> 1 is where we began all motion from, ther other is where we beagn all orbiting, not screweed, totaly secure, i use it in many machines, they work
[23:33:24] <tomp> why screwed
[23:33:47] <robin_sz> if you limit yourself to very limited sets of motion, that might be OK
[23:34:00] <robin_sz> and very limite part geometry
[23:34:31] <tomp> i cut wasjhong machne agitators, threads, splines, turbines.... not very limited in my estimation
[23:34:42] <tomp> washing machine agitators
[23:34:52] <robin_sz> sigh
[23:35:13] <robin_sz> so ... the die ...
[23:35:26] <robin_sz> lets says it has some vertical part on it for some reason
[23:35:34] <robin_sz> and we are going in ...
[23:36:05] <robin_sz> what is the ONLY safe way to retract with a vertical piece on the part?
[23:36:10] <robin_sz> UP, right?
[23:36:31] <tomp> the pictuer isnt clear yet, gimme time to imagine what you describe
[23:37:12] <tomp> this is very visual, i think 'has some vertical part' is a unclear
[23:37:33] <tomp> i think we can exchnage pictures easier, can you get my email?
[23:37:45] <tomp> i have many photos and examples
[23:37:46] <robin_sz> do you understand the mold making term "draft angle" ?
[23:37:57] <tomp> i was a mold maker for many years
[23:38:01] <robin_sz> do you understand the mold making term "draft angle" ?
[23:39:52] <robin_sz> by vertical I mean some part of the tool has a draft angle of zero
[23:39:55] <tomp> yes robin, did you mean to repeat the question, yes I know and have a DME calculator here
[23:40:38] <robin_sz> so, given that at least some part of the tool has a draft angle of zero
[23:40:53] <tomp> yes
[23:40:56] <robin_sz> the only safe direction to retract is up
[23:41:20] <tomp> during the rough cut, if you know what the mold making term rough cut is
[23:42:27] <robin_sz> yes
[23:42:43] <tomp> and durinf the orbit it is up and center IF you cut the cavity down, but lots of edm is not 'down' we are getting ( i am ) a bit testicular
[23:43:35] <tomp> and for a slide face that needs to be cut ( a moving molded surface that needs to move open early in ejection) up is not good
[23:44:13] <robin_sz> * robin_sz bangs his head on the wall
[23:44:19] <robin_sz> exactly! ...
[23:44:23] <robin_sz> so ...
[23:44:24] <tomp> so i used the word away to generalize, not to confuse
[23:45:14] <robin_sz> I think the only safe way out is back the way I came
[23:45:27] <robin_sz> you think it can be stored as two points in some way
[23:45:31] <tomp> correct, we say the same thing in differnet ways you are correct
[23:45:36] <robin_sz> right ...
[23:45:55] <robin_sz> but those two points only apply to a limited set of motions
[23:46:08] <robin_sz> and require part geometry knowledge
[23:47:26] <robin_sz> ie IFF you are working down a conical surface
[23:47:36] <tomp> i think... not limited and tool manufacture ( how the undersize was accomplised) not part geometry... my opinion
[23:47:47] <robin_sz> sigh
[23:47:59] <robin_sz> by "limited" I mean the mathematical term
[23:49:07] <robin_sz> ie limited to motions based on the surface of a cone
[23:49:09] <tomp> is the math def like 'fewer than many?' cuz i got many, sigh? me too , thanks for your opinion, could you review the wiki so i can explain it better?
[23:49:40] <robin_sz> not including decreasing radius spirals
[23:49:44] <tomp> you type faster than i, but yes few in motion patterns
[23:49:48] <robin_sz> for example
[23:49:51] <robin_sz> right
[23:50:06] <robin_sz> so for a lmited set of moves
[23:50:31] <tomp> i use suare & circular 2d orbits, then conical and pryrimidic and hemispherical obits for 3d
[23:50:36] <tomp> square
[23:50:37] <robin_sz> then yes, you can store safe position quite simply
[23:50:48] <robin_sz> right, a very limited set of motions
[23:50:51] <tomp> yes, as i said, i didnt explain well
[23:51:31] <tomp> a limited set of motions, i think they cover more than 95% of works in sink edm
[23:51:43] <tomp> i have others less commonly used
[23:52:22] <tomp> thanks again, could you have at the wiki tho?
[23:52:49] <robin_sz> right. I was consdierign the general solution, yours is more specific
[23:53:35] <robin_sz> my solution always works at any time for any tool, but is somplex. your solution works, so long a the motion ois restrictred to a particualr set of movess
[23:53:49] <robin_sz> URL of th ebit of wiki you had in mind?
[23:54:14] <tomp> i cant get emc to do either yet & have been advised that my limited idea is simpler to implement
[23:54:25] <tomp> coming up
[23:54:52] <robin_sz> not sure which one will be more complex toimplement
[23:55:10] <tomp> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?ElectricalDischargeMachining
[23:55:38] <tomp> you seem familair with mold making, beenn on the bench?
[23:55:50] <robin_sz> nope
[23:57:53] <tomp> thanks for the discussion, and thanks if you can review the wiki
[23:58:58] <robin_sz> yeah ... will do.
[23:59:02] <robin_sz> goodnight ...