#emc | Logs for 2006-08-17

[00:01:38] <danex> jymmmEMC How goes
[00:04:31] <Jymmm> not too shabby.... been working all day on getting X to export display to my laptop. All this time it was a perms config issue.
[00:05:47] <Jymmm> danex: Now, I can run emc on the dell box, and display it on the laptop without the encryption overhead
[00:12:44] <danex> nice
[00:14:27] <danex> I have been trying to get an enable output to work for an axis brake, no luck yet
[00:16:41] <Jymmm> have you narrowed done where the problem is?
[00:17:54] <danex> The problem is that the brake must be disengaged at movement of the axis,
[00:18:29] <jepler> danex: when would you want the brake to be enabled? There's axis.0.amp-enable-out, for instance. amp-enable-out is FALSE until you turn the machine on in the GUI
[00:18:32] <Jymmm> then reengaged when stationary?
[00:19:00] <jepler> but that signal will stay TRUE after the program has finished running...
[00:19:16] <danex> jymmm, correct
[00:19:40] <Jymmm> jepler: is there a pin that when an axis is in motion goes high?
[00:19:50] <danex> jepler, that is what I run into with that signal
[00:21:03] <Jymmm> danex: wait a sec, is this on a per-axis basis? Like when your running, but X is jogging, Y and Z have to have their brakes enabled?
[00:21:31] <danex> jymmm, yes
[00:22:12] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[00:22:31] <jepler> does there need to be a time before you start moving, when you must disengage the brake?
[00:22:45] <jepler> .. release the brake ..
[00:23:50] <danex> the brake should release at the command of motion on the axis
[00:24:32] <danex> and then brake at end of commanded motion
[00:26:09] <Jymmm> danex: Should there be any delay between the time the brake disengages and motion commenses? like 100ms maybe?
[00:26:24] <jepler> Jymmm: yes, that is what I'm trying to ask
[00:26:55] <Jymmm> jepler: I was just aksing in a different way is all.
[00:27:02] <danex> a 100 ms delay could be used
[00:27:33] <jepler> Jymmm: yes, and thank you
[00:31:15] <danex> I am using axis.0.amp-enable-out for my drives , if my notes are right
[00:31:46] <jepler> you can create an "axis in position" signal by combining ddt and wcomp
[00:32:32] <jepler> but this will not allow you to create a delay before moving an axis to release the brake
[00:33:13] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/core_sim_plus_inpos.hal
[00:33:35] <jepler> this .hal file will add Xinpos, Yinpos and Zinpos signals to the simulator configuration
[00:34:27] <jepler> an axis is "in position" if it is moving at less than 1e-6 units per second
[00:35:31] <jepler> note: that hal file is for the development version, it would require some changes to work with 2.0.3
[00:37:54] <danex> I will print out the file and try to make some changes in the morning.
[00:37:58] <cradek> there's already a realtime motion.motion-inpos from the motion controller
[00:38:14] <jepler> cradek: but it is just one signal for all the axes
[00:38:17] <cradek> it's not per-axis, but it might be enough to run all your brakes
[00:38:36] <cradek> I doubt you want brakes turning on and off during a program run...?
[00:38:58] <danex> It is required on this machine
[00:39:34] <cradek> wow, ok
[00:39:41] <danex> the original design was weak so brakes were added by the OEM
[00:39:56] <cradek> seems problematic because you don't know when to release the brakes without predicting the future
[00:40:14] <cradek> it can't hold its spindle up without overheating or something?
[00:40:50] <danex> most of the movements are predictable, so i can get by that
[00:44:27] <danex> the spindles have to be held at position during the cutting, if not they move and kill the part
[00:45:08] <jepler> danex: this version shows just the deletions and insertions to add the axis 'inpos' signals: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/axis-inpos-patch
[00:47:20] <danex> are there any documents reguarding these functions, I do not recall them in the manual I downloaded?
[00:48:07] <jepler> I used the 'hal documentation', linked from here: http://linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=5&lang=en
[00:48:31] <jepler> it describes both 'ddt' and 'wcomp' in the section called "Blocks"
[00:49:58] <danex> O.K. Printing it now
[00:51:21] <jepler> 'ddt' computes the derivative of the input signal. so, put in the commanded position and you get the velocity. 'wcomp' is a "window comparator", its output is true when the input is between the 'min' and 'max' limits, and false otherwise.
[00:52:18] <jepler> the simulator already finds Xvel Yvel Zvel using ddt, so I just had to use wcomp to make the Xinpos be TRUE when moving less than 1e-6 units per second and FALSE when it is moving at least that much.
[00:57:13] <danex> Looks like I have some reading to do tonight
[00:57:35] <danex> Thank You for the Help
[00:58:20] <danex> Good Night All
[00:58:32] <jepler> goodnight danex
[00:59:11] <Jymmm> jepler: I wasn't trying to step on your feet there, just looking for clarification.
[01:05:26] <jepler> Jymmm: yes, and thank you
[01:09:54] <JymmmEMC> You know what's kinda funny... the sound produced from the steppers standing still is different under emc than under tcnc
[01:11:58] <JymmmEMC> Oh I had a question that I'm not sure who could answer.... be it tkemc, mini, or AXIS, when you are jogging is the the typmatic rate (repeat) what allows the actual jogging?
[01:12:09] <cradek> no
[01:12:24] <cradek> key press = start jog, key release = stop jog
[01:13:11] <JymmmEMC> ok, so if repeat was disba;ed completely, no problem? Is the the same for ALL (and any potential) kybd controls?
[01:13:47] <jepler> I'm not aware of any problems it would cause
[01:13:56] <jepler> I just tried axis after running "xset r off" and it seems to work
[01:14:31] <cradek> iirc keystick may depend on repeats
[01:14:37] <jepler> I bet it does
[01:14:49] <jepler> traditional terminal-based programs can't tell if a key is held down
[01:14:52] <JymmmEMC> Ok, cool. I can get a board that emulates a kybd but allows you to connect switches to it, but doesn't have the reapeat functionality under PS/2
[01:15:09] <cradek> why not use halui?
[01:15:15] <cradek> oh it's ps/2 I see
[01:15:29] <JymmmEMC> this shouls make for a very nice pendant
[01:15:40] <JymmmEMC> what's halui?
[01:16:20] <JymmmEMC> The board is $40 and have to get from UK, so I wanted to make sure in advance.
[02:22:22] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/scope_disp.c: removed debugging message
[02:51:17] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/halcmd.c: remove unused variable, fix error message, fix warning
[02:52:31] <Jymmm> jmkasunich!
[02:52:39] <jmkasunich> Jymmm!
[02:52:48] <Jymmm> jmkasunich How ya doin?
[02:53:45] <jmkasunich> sitting in a hotel
[02:53:57] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Oh that doesn't sound too fun
[02:54:11] <jmkasunich> after being bored to death in statisucks training
[02:54:34] <Jymmm> oh man, that's even worse!
[02:54:37] <cradek> man are you at another one of those damn things?
[02:54:43] <jmkasunich> two more days
[02:54:50] <jmkasunich> and one more week in september
[02:54:57] <cradek> good grief
[02:55:04] <Jymmm> That hotel isn't in Vegas/Reno/Tahoe is it?
[02:55:09] <jmkasunich> no
[02:55:17] <jmkasunich> north of milwaukee
[02:58:02] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Maybe you know.... Can jog speed increments be changed by chance?
[02:58:23] <cradek> that's purely a gui issue
[02:58:27] <jmkasunich> I think thats gui
[02:58:32] <jmkasunich> what he said ;-)
[02:59:03] <cradek> which of course doesn't answer the question
[02:59:28] <JymmmEMC> Well, I thought it was a division of MAX_VELOCITY
[02:59:33] <jmkasunich> but it gets me off the hook ;-)
[02:59:44] <cradek> it depends on the gui
[02:59:58] <jmkasunich> axis has nonlinear increments
[03:00:01] <cradek> I think tkemc changes in 1 unit/minute increments
[03:00:09] <jmkasunich> small when the velocity is low, large when its high
[03:00:11] <cradek> axis has logarithmic increments
[03:00:17] <JymmmEMC> I'm speaking strictly of the slider
[03:00:26] <JymmmEMC> , and .
[03:00:53] <cradek> you're saying you want , and . to move the slider more or less than it does?
[03:01:32] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, less increments. Right now it's about 15 or so, I'd like to set it to like 3 or 4
[03:02:02] <cradek> I agree it would be nice if it were configurable
[03:02:11] <JymmmEMC> Ok, what I would REALLY like is jog_key (slow) and ALT+jog_key (fast)
[03:02:24] <JymmmEMC> or soemthing along those lines.
[03:03:25] <JymmmEMC> cradek: do you think a INCREMENT value might be in the future?
[03:03:44] <JymmmEMC> 0 to MAX_VELOCITY / INCREMENTS
[03:05:50] <JymmmEMC> I feel sorry for you poor bastards that have to travel so much on business like that. Being stuck in a hotel has got to be a pita
[03:08:28] <jmkasunich> the hotel isn't half as bad as the classes
[03:09:06] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: statistic trainging?! I can't even imagine
[03:09:19] <JymmmEMC> why is the better question
[03:10:24] <jmkasunich> cause the consultants sold the concept of "design for six sigma" to the high muckity mucks, who know nothing about engineering
[03:10:44] <JymmmEMC> I'm sorry I asked.
[03:11:15] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC thinks he's glad that he doesn't understand the response too! =)
[03:13:33] <andrewm1973> I wonder how having six mitsubishi-sigmas could make something more reliable (*Maybe australian only joke with a car called a mitsubishi sigma only being available here)
[03:14:24] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:14:29] <jmkasunich> never heard of that car
[03:15:06] <andrewm1973> Oh well - I hope the concept of the joke still at least made it across the ocean.
[03:15:13] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:15:31] <jmkasunich> I take it a sigma is _not_ the finest example of engineering to be found?
[03:16:39] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Is there any OpenGL logging by chance?
[03:17:25] <andrewm1973> Not realy. If Ralph Naider had have been in a different country and 10 years later he may have written "unsafe in any colour".
[03:17:51] <JymmmEMC> lol
[03:18:05] <andrewm1973> But sorry for hijacking the chat - I just can't help making jokes when ever I hear people talking about 6 sigma of TQM or any quality/reliabilty "system" being sold.
[03:19:07] <JymmmEMC> I dont think I've ever heard of any TQM that truly works
[03:19:19] <andrewm1973> I should just stick to lurking (what I do best) till I work out how to get servos running in EMC.
[03:20:00] <andrewm1973> I think that any TQM system is DOOMED unless the people care. And if the people REALY care - you don't need a quality system in the first place.
[03:20:14] <jmkasunich> I think the reason management loves "systems" so much is that the dream of a day when they can pour a system into the heads of fresh college grads and fire all the expensive experienced engineers.... "who needs experience, we have a system!"
[03:20:21] <JymmmEMC> truer words have never been spoken
[03:22:58] <andrewm1973> I know a lot of blokes at the horse-track/dog-track that have "systems" as well. They probably work about as well.
[03:23:43] <JymmmEMC> "double down! double down!" =)
[03:33:19] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/tools.lyx: updated halmeter lyx doc and man page
[03:33:20] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/halmeter.1: updated halmeter lyx doc and man page
[03:39:08] <cradek> jmkasunich: I'm happy to see you emptying the BUGS section of a manpage
[03:40:33] <jmkasunich> I'm happy you emptied the bug itself
[03:41:08] <cradek> heh, it was trivial
[03:41:17] <jmkasunich> I'm trying to scrape up the ambition to accomplish something else
[03:41:26] <jmkasunich> dunno what, maybe more manual stuff
[03:41:30] <cradek> I've had that problem lately too
[03:41:30] <jmkasunich> or maybe just sleep
[03:42:07] <cradek> sadly I lost interest in updating the docs already
[03:42:21] <cradek> I made it through a few I guess.
[03:42:32] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:42:47] <cradek> it takes a real hero to do that
[03:43:22] <jmkasunich> I was reading the developer doc - a lot of the info about the motion controller is blank because it needs more knowledge of the TP than I had/have
[03:43:28] <jmkasunich> (hint, hint ;-)
[03:43:53] <cradek> it's all documented, but the documentation is written in C
[03:44:01] <cradek> (and some comments even)
[03:44:47] <jmkasunich> :-P
[03:44:59] <cradek> I'm not sure I believe in developer docs
[03:45:11] <cradek> maybe for overview-type things
[03:45:27] <cradek> but for anything specific it'll just be out of date, and we can all read C at least as well as english
[03:46:01] <jmkasunich> reading C is fine for low level stuff
[03:46:18] <jmkasunich> but it sucks at higher levels
[03:48:15] <jmkasunich> take a look at section 3.3.anything in the developer manual
[03:48:43] <cradek> * cradek looks for the developer manual
[03:48:49] <jmkasunich> and tell me the code documents it as well as that does
[03:49:06] <slagdustmachine> Greetings - Has anybody seen or have thoughts on the Geckodrive G100 / G-REX 6 axis motion controller?
[03:49:06] <jmkasunich> emc2/docs/EMC2_Developer_Manual.pdf
[03:49:12] <jmkasunich> (in a head checkout)
[03:49:24] <jmkasunich> slagdustmachine, seen it, and have thoughts
[03:49:30] <jmkasunich> I actually have one
[03:49:41] <jmkasunich> I just don't have the time or energy to make it work with emc
[03:50:07] <jmkasunich> my thoughts are a little differnet than mariss's
[03:50:09] <slagdustmachine> would it be worth investing such time and energy?
[03:50:44] <jmkasunich> he sees it as a complete motion controller, I see it as a peripherial device, a step generator
[03:51:05] <jmkasunich> depends on how much time and energy you have
[03:51:06] <slagdustmachine> or is offloading that control overhead not really worth so much?
[03:51:22] <jmkasunich> to work with emc, it will need significant effort on both the PC side and the Rabbit side
[03:51:43] <slagdustmachine> and the LPT port works just fine anyway
[03:52:12] <jmkasunich> the g100 can generate much faster/smoother step pulses
[03:52:24] <jmkasunich> (as can some other hardware approaches)
[03:52:49] <slagdustmachine> I was thinking about the analog input as well for monitoring arc voltage for a plasma system
[03:53:14] <slagdustmachine> and generating an appropriate feedback loop to control torch height
[03:53:38] <cradek> have you seen Dallur's torch height control work?
[03:54:09] <slagdustmachine> no - I have this miserable hunk of crap with a basic STAMP glued to it that somebody sold to my partner while I was away for 2 months
[03:54:12] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?Torch_Height_Control
[03:55:34] <cradek> (I don't know anything about this)
[03:56:36] <slagdustmachine> Wow - looks like dallur did some major ass kicking - it looks great
[03:56:44] <cradek> if a basic stamp is doing it now, I bet you want a more basic solution... :-)
[03:57:18] <slagdustmachine> that stamp is a piece of crap. it could have been done with 2 OP amps and a 555
[03:57:29] <slagdustmachine> and it would have worked better
[04:00:48] <cradek> looks like he is using all digital IO (two PCI parallel ports)
[04:01:33] <slagdustmachine> and inductive proximity switches are DIRT cheap on ebay
[04:02:13] <slagdustmachine> OK Dallur..... I'm going to bed happy now. Thanks fellas
[04:02:41] <cradek> heh
[04:02:54] <cradek> I haven't seen Dallur around for a while
[04:02:59] <cradek> maybe he's happily cutting stuff
[04:05:49] <Jymmm> nor Jacky
[04:14:39] <CIA-12> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/mdi.py:
[04:14:39] <CIA-12> allow the mdi command to be specified on the commandline, e.g.,
[04:14:39] <CIA-12> bin/mdi configs/sim/emc.nml g0 x0
[04:19:04] <jmkasunich> time for sleep... goodnight all
[04:21:52] <Jymmm> I just noticed that AXIS has comflicitng keystrokes... 1 and 2 are for selecting axis and for selecting speed
[08:08:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[08:11:20] <Jymmm> ol
[08:19:00] <alex_joni> lol
[08:22:16] <Jymmm> Does anyone know if there's a tool for cutting allthread without damaging the threads?
[08:29:09] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I usually cut it with a bandsaw, then sharpen the end
[08:29:15] <alex_joni> sharpen like a pencil
[08:29:24] <alex_joni> not pointy.. but you get the idea
[08:29:40] <Jymmm> like on a grinder?
[08:29:45] <alex_joni> yes
[08:30:03] <alex_joni> and remember to leave 1-2 nuts on the allthread before you cut it
[08:30:18] <alex_joni> then after you've cut it you can unscrew them out, and they will sort out the thread
[08:30:18] <Jymmm> Well, that's the problem....
[08:30:38] <alex_joni> you can use a file...
[08:30:54] <Jymmm> I need to cut up a LOT of allthread, so I would need at least 4 nuts and they would have to be threaded on a 10 foot piece
[08:31:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> usually if you cut it nicely with the bandsaw and file/grind carefully you can get a nut on it without too much fiiddling
[08:31:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how large thread is it?
[08:31:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> small/big?
[08:31:23] <Jymmm> 1/4-20
[08:32:12] <alex_joni> in real units?
[08:32:24] <Jymmm> Have you ever tried just threading a nut on a 10 foot length?! Even attached to a drill it take sforever
[08:33:01] <Jymmm> alex_joni what is a real unit?
[08:33:05] <alex_joni> mm?
[08:33:17] <Jymmm> 1/4" 20 TPI
[08:33:18] <alex_joni> 1/4-20 is not a real unit
[08:33:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> around 6mm then
[08:33:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah 10 feet would take a while
[08:34:02] <alex_joni> Jymmm: do you need to cut it in half?
[08:34:23] <Jymmm> I wish.... 18" and 24" lengths
[08:34:49] <alex_joni> I see.. :)
[08:34:53] <alex_joni> well.. good luck
[08:34:58] <Jymmm> lol
[08:35:03] <alex_joni> if you cut clean you can get away without problems
[08:35:52] <Jymmm> Is there a way to "re-form" the threads?
[08:36:07] <Jymmm> without threading a die on the other end
[08:36:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> file carefully
[08:36:35] <Jymmm> ha!
[08:36:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> usually you can force a nut on it from the short direction
[08:36:39] <alex_joni> Jymmm: sharp thingie
[08:36:48] <Jymmm> lol @ alex_joni
[08:36:51] <alex_joni> then nut
[08:37:01] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I'm serious.. something like a carpet cutter
[08:37:13] <Jymmm> I was thinking something more along the lines of a clam-sheel
[08:37:15] <Jymmm> shell
[08:38:15] <Jymmm> Like a pair of vice-grips that have a clam shell of a 1/4-20 thread on it, welded to each sode of the jaws
[08:39:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that would work
[08:39:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> lining it up would be quite easy too
[08:39:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> just clamp it on the all thread
[08:39:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then weld
[08:39:50] <Jymmm> or even take a die, weld it on, then cut it in half
[08:41:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or just a normal nut
[08:41:05] <Jymmm> Not sure how to compensate for the kerf on that though.
[08:41:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> welded then cut in half with angle grinder
[08:42:45] <Jymmm> too bad I have never welded! lol
[08:43:02] <alex_joni> I suggest you don't weld near the allthread then
[08:43:03] <alex_joni> :D
[08:43:41] <Jymmm> Oh, there REALLY is such a thing as a "split die"
[08:43:54] <Jymmm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ThreadingDies.jpg
[08:44:07] <Jymmm> top left
[08:45:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh, why do those have a split section near one end?
[08:45:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the diameter won't be constant when you mount it
[08:45:52] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: to take multiple passes?
[08:46:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how do you clamp the diamter to the final size?
[08:46:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> accuratly
[08:49:23] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has no idea
[08:49:37] <Jymmm> one of those screws is an adj one
[08:49:44] <Jymmm>
[08:49:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, ok. all the ones I've seem at least are completely solid
[08:50:00] <alex_joni> center: a one piece die with side adjusting screw (barely visible on the full image)
[08:50:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh! there's a screw in the gap?
[08:50:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> still, how do you know when it's correctly tightend?
[08:51:44] <alex_joni> it's adjustable from what they say
[08:51:49] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taps_and_dies
[08:52:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, I'll have to look into that
[08:52:11] <Jymmm> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2250780&PMT4NO=10766461
[08:52:23] <Jymmm> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2250778&PMT4NO=10766461
[08:52:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> those are blanks though
[08:52:36] <Jymmm> Though, I'm not sure what's different between those too
[08:52:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you'll have to thread them
[08:52:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> different collet
[08:53:00] <Jymmm> it says 1/4-20
[08:53:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Jymmm: I think the easiest thing to do by far is take a nut, weld it to a visegrip, and then cut it in two
[08:55:10] <Jymmm> I might have to reform the thread. Using just a nut, even a rod coupler can be a BITCH to get off of a damaged thread, even using wrenches.
[08:56:26] <Jymmm> you have to lock two nuts againest each other so you have something to turn againest, then another wrench on try and get the other nut past the fuberd threads
[08:58:22] <Jymmm> But, since I dont have a welder, and these are split, I could put them on the clean thread and spin off.
[09:14:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh. nasty
[09:15:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it's FUBAR'ed ;)
[09:15:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Jymmm: those are blank though, you'll need to thread them first
[09:16:29] <Jymmm> why do you say they are blanks?
[09:25:59] <alex_joni> they don't have bullets in them .. do they?
[09:31:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if you look at the area were there should be a thread it's solid
[09:35:33] <Jymmm> I can't find a website for greenfield
[09:41:24] <alex_joni> who cares for a nice radio?
[09:41:26] <alex_joni> http://stations.loudcity.com/784/page7.html
[09:45:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I get timeout on both items in playlist
[09:49:48] <Jymmm> G'night folks
[09:50:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night
[10:22:18] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra:
[10:22:32] <alex_joni> but you need AAC+ support on the player
[10:22:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, strange
[10:23:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> currently I have winamp 5.x something
[10:23:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> IIRC it has aac support built in
[10:23:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> V 5.21
[10:25:03] <alex_joni> yeah, it should work
[10:25:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> funny
[10:25:25] <alex_joni> 5.24 here though
[10:25:44] <alex_joni> Ctrl-L (play location), paste:
[10:27:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> huh, strange
[10:27:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> timeout
[10:27:19] <alex_joni> probably a bad route from your location :D
[10:27:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can ping that IP though
[10:27:47] <alex_joni> what times do you get?
[10:27:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> latency is a bit high, but not awful, 150ms
[10:27:54] <alex_joni> oh
[10:28:14] <alex_joni> 136ms here
[10:29:11] <alex_joni> odd delay on my side..
[10:29:35] <alex_joni> 7 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms xr01.amsterdam.rdsnet.ro []
[10:29:35] <alex_joni> 8 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms j1.ams.sc.net []
[10:29:35] <alex_joni> 9 136 ms 136 ms 136 ms ge3-2-0.605.j1.ord.scnet.net []
[10:29:35] <alex_joni> 10 136 ms 136 ms 136 ms unknown.scnet.net []
[10:29:35] <alex_joni> 11 136 ms 137 ms 136 ms unknown.ord.scnet.net []
[10:29:37] <alex_joni> 12 136 ms 136 ms 136 ms 64-202-98-132.streamguys.net []
[10:29:47] <alex_joni> it's exactly 136 ms
[10:30:33] <alex_joni> I forgot how nice a FO is..
[10:30:44] <alex_joni> ping times don't vary at all
[10:30:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> strange
[10:30:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> FO?
[10:30:56] <alex_joni> fiber optics
[10:30:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[10:31:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice :D
[10:31:12] <alex_joni> low bandwith though ..
[10:31:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> my ping varies a few ms, 152-156 in this case
[10:31:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :(
[10:31:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I have 8/1
[10:31:22] <alex_joni> that's OK
[10:31:30] <alex_joni> I have .256 out
[10:31:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I would much rather have 4/4
[10:31:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or something like that
[10:31:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nasty
[10:31:38] <alex_joni> and .256 in
[10:31:39] <alex_joni> :D
[10:31:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> argh
[10:31:49] <alex_joni> except MAN
[10:31:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nearly modem
[10:31:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> man?
[10:32:01] <alex_joni> Metropolitan Area Network
[10:32:08] <alex_joni> local stuff, not on the internet
[10:32:16] <alex_joni> like the local college, and various local sites
[10:32:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[10:32:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, I see
[10:32:33] <alex_joni> I get up to 7MByte/sec up/down on that
[10:32:58] <alex_joni> so I guess a VPN saves the day on long downloads D:
[10:32:59] <alex_joni> :D
[10:34:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[10:34:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, strange. it clearly supports AAC
[10:34:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yet still can't connect
[10:34:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe the server has blacklisted an IP range
[10:34:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> like 83.227.*.*
[10:35:39] <alex_joni> maybe
[10:36:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cvs/svn, anything better with svn?
[10:37:32] <alex_joni> some things
[10:38:15] <alex_joni> but in the case of emc2 not enough to be worth the trouble changing
[10:38:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[10:38:25] <alex_joni> users need to learn new ways, etc
[10:38:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so nothing earth shattering
[10:38:34] <alex_joni> you can move files around easier
[10:38:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[10:38:45] <alex_joni> and stuff like that.. but nothing really interesting :D
[10:39:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so more like changing existing behavior
[10:39:09] <alex_joni> probably git is a "more intelligent" alternative
[10:39:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[10:39:31] <alex_joni> svn offers some advantages over cvs when you don't have access on the repo
[10:39:36] <alex_joni> like the case was back on SF
[10:39:50] <alex_joni> but now we have full control on the repository, and some stuff can be done manually
[10:40:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[11:13:08] <alex_joni> yay.. my system works OK
[11:13:29] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A gives alex_joni a cookie
[11:13:44] <alex_joni> yummy
[11:14:44] <A-L-P-H-A> scum of the earth... telemarketers, spammers, virus writers.
[11:15:00] <alex_joni> indeed so
[11:15:20] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to find a bottle of oil, with a long thin neck to deliver some oil to the fan in the back of my amp.
[11:16:13] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate taking out the 20 or so screws, to ge to it... I'll do it onces more, to punch a 1/2" hole with a hole punch, and never have to undo those screws again
[11:20:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra wants a cookie too
[11:20:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> amp=
[11:20:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> s/=/?
[11:20:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> amplifier?
[11:34:24] <A-L-P-H-A> amp, yeah, amplifier/sub/surround sound receiver.
[11:35:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you have a fan in it?
[11:35:19] <A-L-P-H-A> yup
[11:35:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's not particularly nice
[11:35:24] <A-L-P-H-A> nope
[11:35:28] <A-L-P-H-A> didn't know when I bought it.
[11:35:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> small heatsinks?
[11:35:34] <A-L-P-H-A> but I got it for a pretty good price
[11:36:00] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, not that small...
[11:36:15] <A-L-P-H-A> no clue, designed to have a heat sink + fan... I'll keep the heatsink and fan. :)
[11:37:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> good idea
[11:37:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> does the fan run at 100% all the time?
[11:37:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or does it have a thermistor and control circuit?
[11:38:51] <A-L-P-H-A> 100% think
[11:40:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, you could add a control circuit of it's annoying
[11:42:01] <A-L-P-H-A> it's near silent when oiled.
[11:42:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[11:56:38] <alex_joni> if it started squeeking, and needs oiling it's best to leave it running
[11:56:52] <alex_joni> it only degrades faster if you turn it on/off a lot
[11:57:13] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: of course a ball-bearing fan would save you all the trouble..
[12:59:40] <anonimasu> hello
[13:00:35] <alex_joni> hey anders
[13:09:25] <anonimasu> got a good idea about servodrives?
[13:09:27] <anonimasu> 0-10v ones
[15:33:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: oh I need to add limit switches too
[15:34:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> right now I've got poor mans limit switches: pencil marks on the side
[15:36:24] <cradek> that works pretty well considering the low cost
[15:36:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[15:36:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> actually works surprisingly well
[15:36:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> one good thing is the stepper motors sound different the last mm
[15:37:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> more strain on them no doubt
[15:37:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and it's made to be able to take hitting the edge
[15:37:22] <cradek> oh you do mean limits, I assumed you meant the pencil marks were home "switches"
[15:37:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, no
[15:37:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> just eyeballed things
[16:07:08] <rayh> I seem to remember issues with some dapper installs and power management.
[16:07:21] <rayh> Can't get my install to work.
[16:07:29] <rayh> with the real time kernel
[16:23:51] <rayh> "this program can not start until you start the dbus system service"
[16:24:36] <rayh> "It is strongly recommended you reboot your computer after starting messagebuss\."
[16:24:56] <SWPadnos> power management is generally incompatible with RT kernels, without lots of work
[16:25:12] <SWPadnos> (and even with lots of work, in many cases)
[16:34:30] <davidf> Hi
[16:38:50] <davidf> Got a general milling question for someone...
[16:39:16] <davidf> I want to make a mold for pressing glass...
[16:39:36] <davidf> An oval shape, like a cabochon.
[16:39:55] <davidf> Don't know if I spelled that right.
[16:40:51] <davidf> It needs surface curvature in X and Y, basically a domed oval shape.
[16:40:52] <A-L-P-H-A> what'a cabochon?
[16:40:53] <Jymmm> http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Acabochon&sourceid=mozilla&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial
[16:41:12] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[16:41:15] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf... okay... what about making it?
[16:41:19] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[16:41:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> wouldn't you need curvature in X, Y and Z?
[16:41:31] <davidf> Like the stones you commonly see mounted in say turquoise bracelets.
[16:41:42] <davidf> Yes, of course.
[16:42:14] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf... sec. I got an aswesome video with that shape somewhere.
[16:42:24] <davidf> Picture a 1/8 inch slice off the side of a hard boiled egg, but symetrical oval.
[16:42:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so a generic round gemstone?
[16:42:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err, oval
[16:42:59] <davidf> thats it.
[16:43:27] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, check out the videos. http://www.freemansupply.com/video-prepare.htm it's one of them.
[16:44:06] <Jymmm> davidf ok, what was your question now =)
[16:45:27] <davidf> How to cut it omn a milling machine.
[16:45:49] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, with a small, round endmill, in a predefined pattern.
[16:45:58] <davidf> A-L-P-H-A, I cant get that video. Should I install Quick time player plugin?
[16:46:01] <A-L-P-H-A> usually generated in a CAM program.
[16:46:10] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, what distro are you using?
[16:46:17] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, ubuntu?
[16:46:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> something simple like that could probably be done with O-words though
[16:46:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> similar to the spherical o-word program
[16:46:38] <davidf> O-words?
[16:46:44] <A-L-P-H-A> never heard of o-words
[16:46:50] <davidf> me either.
[16:46:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it's a way of doing basic math in a g-code file
[16:47:16] <Jymmm> cradek has a dome gcode somewhere
[16:47:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the wiki seems to be down though
[16:47:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Jymmm: that's the one I was thinking of
[16:47:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> with some math you should be able to do what you want without cad/cam
[16:48:46] <A-L-P-H-A> oh cool... so, take an ellipse function, and add a 3rd dimension for height. :)
[16:49:08] <davidf> I was thinking that using a ball end mill might take a really long time to get a smooth surface, going round & round with ovals decreaseing by a couple thou on each pass.
[16:49:27] <Jymmm> http://timeguy.com/cradek/01117920075
[16:49:30] <Jymmm> there it is
[16:50:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> davidf: yes that's true
[16:50:22] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, yup... using a small, like a 1/2", move to a 1/8", then you should be smooth enough... you could always polish it as well.
[16:50:24] <Jymmm> davidf how big? how deep ?
[16:50:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> though a bigger radius will do it faster
[16:51:35] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, or http://www.freemansupply.com/video/preparing/machiningqt500.htm
[16:51:42] <davidf> Several sizes, but biggest probably 1.5 on major axis, 1.0 on minor, 1/8th inch thick.
[16:51:53] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, if you're in linux, get like some codecs. :)
[16:52:00] <Jymmm> 1.0 feet ? mm? inches?
[16:52:00] <A-L-P-H-A> anyone know if ubuntu will run emc 2.0.3?
[16:52:07] <davidf> inches.
[16:52:10] <davidf> sorry.
[16:52:13] <Jymmm> =)
[16:52:33] <Jymmm> davidf how many sizes do you need?
[16:52:35] <davidf> feet might be a bit much for jewelry. :)
[16:52:35] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, don't be... you mentioned inch, at the end. An intelligent person would have just assumed inch throughout the entire statement.
[16:52:56] <davidf> now,now. =)
[16:53:05] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, what are you attempting to cast with?
[16:53:24] <davidf> I work hot glass for jewelry.
[16:53:41] <davidf> This would be a press mold. for glass
[16:54:26] <davidf> Not melted / cast, but semi-liquid state, then pressed in to form the shape. then fire polished in the torch.
[16:54:31] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, hmm... machine a wax positive mold -> plaster -> melt glass?
[16:54:39] <Jymmm> davidf Like vacuum forming
[16:54:48] <davidf> Yes, could be done.
[16:54:59] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, yes to whom?
[16:55:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's the best mold material?
[16:55:26] <davidf> A more common method is aluminum press mold, or traditionally, wet cherry wood.
[16:55:30] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, depends on your method to manfucture what.
[16:55:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> well, in this case semi-liquid glass
[16:55:54] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, is this for a production run? or just a one off?
[16:55:55] <Jymmm> davidf what kind of temp do you have to get the glass so it'll form?
[16:56:11] <davidf> semi production.
[16:56:19] <davidf> 1100 F.
[16:56:48] <davidf> Thats no problem, I've been working glass a long time. Just never cut any molds before.
[16:57:20] <davidf> My website: www.artintheround.com
[16:57:21] <Jymmm> davidf and you need boths halfs I'd suspect
[16:57:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> eek, 600°
[16:57:33] <A-L-P-H-A> alu won't be good... as it melts way below that
[16:57:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's rather warm
[16:57:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yep
[16:57:40] <davidf> No, just one.
[16:57:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> plaster maybe, like someone else said?
[16:58:06] <davidf> No, aluminum works fine. It only hits the glass for a few seconds.
[16:58:17] <Jymmm> davidf you did say press fit; dont you have to press the glass in and on something?
[16:58:39] <davidf> The glass is hot and plastic, the mold is cold. Press. Done.
[16:58:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> davidf: oh, so the rest acts as thermal mass?
[16:58:55] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, best bet, is to either machine a block of cherry wood to make a reverse mold, and press in. Just keep the machine code around, as you'll probably need to make a few.
[16:59:32] <Jymmm> drywall mud... cheap and plentiful
[16:59:47] <Jymmm> even comes premixed
[17:00:43] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf... my sister would love you, cause you make glass beads. She's into this whole artisan stuff.
[17:01:03] <davidf> Brass or aluminum is fine. Cherry wood soaked lasts a long time. It forms a steam jacket & keeps the wood from burning, and gives a nice finish to the glass.
[17:01:54] <davidf> I don't really need the help on the methods or materials. Just wanted input on the cutting.
[17:01:54] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, k, my suggestion is to just machine it from a block of cherrywood. But now you need the code. :)
[17:02:07] <A-L-P-H-A> yup, thought so. hehehe
[17:02:13] <Jymmm> davidf did you look at the link I gave?
[17:02:26] <Jymmm> davidf: http://timeguy.com/cradek/01117920075
[17:02:34] <davidf> I need a sharper drop-off at the edge, and then a smooth dome shape extending to the middle.
[17:02:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm
[17:02:58] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, got mastercam? artcam? somethingCam?
[17:03:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if you can code python you can probably adapt that script
[17:03:15] <davidf> yes. Thanks. I've done that with math and Visual Basic before.
[17:03:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> an elipse is relatively easy to define mathmatically
[17:03:57] <davidf> But the oval shape is more complex due to my last input above.
[17:04:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> there is one really hac-job method I can think of now, that will go quickly
[17:04:39] <davidf> Yes. OK. Here's one way I thought of previously.
[17:04:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> won't be pretty though
[17:04:57] <davidf> Take a ball end mill, cut the outer circumference,
[17:05:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://timeguy.com/cradek/image-to-gcode <-- you make a grayscale image, black low white high (or the opposite, I don't remember which) and it will machine that image
[17:05:29] <davidf> move in a little, go a bit deeper, repeat.
[17:05:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> very innefective code though
[17:05:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> davidf: you'd really want cam to be able to do that easily
[17:06:03] <davidf> The ball radius will give the srarper drop off at the edge, then the rest is dependent on Z.
[17:06:18] <davidf> I have Cad Cam software.
[17:06:22] <davidf> No prob.
[17:06:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> wouldn't the ball radius do the opposite?
[17:06:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, then what's the problem?
[17:07:03] <davidf> Gosh a picture really is wotrh a thousand words. Were almost there already =)
[17:07:28] <davidf> Back to my original question...
[17:07:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[17:08:00] <davidf> How many passes does anyone think it would trake to not see lines in the surface?
[17:08:06] <davidf> ie,
[17:08:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[17:08:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which ball radius?
[17:08:35] <davidf> how much x/y change in 'diameter' per pass?
[17:08:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and not even be able to see lines?
[17:09:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> can't you take some fine sandpaper and gently sand it afterwards?
[17:09:02] <davidf> Ball end mill. The radius of the end of the bit.
[17:09:18] <davidf> Yeah, I guess.
[17:09:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the step is going to have to be very very small if it's going to be perfect from the mill
[17:10:04] <davidf> Like how small would you think? .001? .005?
[17:10:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I had 0.1mm step on a 10mm bit (1%) and the lines were a bit big to sand
[17:10:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or no
[17:10:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> wait
[17:10:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 1mm step
[17:10:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 10%
[17:10:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and it was too much to sand nicely
[17:10:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 1% is probably more than enough
[17:10:42] <davidf> I can imagine.
[17:10:48] <davidf> 1% of what?
[17:10:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 2-3% probably good for sanding
[17:10:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> diameter
[17:11:00] <davidf> Bit width?
[17:11:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes
[17:11:06] <davidf> ok.
[17:11:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's purely subjective though
[17:11:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 1% should give very little to sand
[17:11:44] <davidf> That seems about right. 1/4 inch bit 1% = .0025
[17:11:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if it doesn't take too long that's what I would do
[17:12:18] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, that's also dependant on the matterial...
[17:12:28] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, so you'll just have to experiment.
[17:13:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how does the material affect? springback?
[17:13:03] <A-L-P-H-A> but a 0.002 movement over sounds about right... to rough it out, then with a 1/8"ball nose, go do the passes.
[17:13:11] <davidf> Right. I just have never even cut metal on my mill yet.
[17:13:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, I se
[17:13:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is it stable enough?
[17:13:34] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, grain, springback, give, flex of stuff.
[17:13:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, grain, right
[17:13:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I
[17:13:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've never milled in wood
[17:13:53] <davidf> Oh yes. It's a Taig mini mill. Pretty solid.
[17:13:58] <davidf> Made for metal.
[17:14:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> why is ' so close to <enter>
[17:14:04] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, stick with cherrywood. :) [but not for any particular reason]
[17:14:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, sounds promising
[17:14:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've never done that becuase I've been afraid of the chips fouling the ways & ballscrews
[17:14:36] <A-L-P-H-A> whos the heck is lerman... keeps interferring with my nick complete.
[17:15:03] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, activate a nick notice for lh, or "LH,"
[17:15:21] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, way covers?
[17:15:24] <SWPadnos> he's nobody. just the guy that added loops and conditionals to the interpreter ;)
[17:15:26] <davidf> Not a problem for me. I cut MDF all the time. I do have way covers though.
[17:15:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> A-L-P-H-A: nick notice?
[17:15:47] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos... well, make him go away. hehehe.
[17:15:49] <SWPadnos> stalk words
[17:15:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah
[17:15:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[17:16:04] <SWPadnos> in chatzilla, /stalk LH lh (I think)
[17:16:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yep
[17:16:10] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, nick notice, nick highlighting.
[17:16:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> works
[17:16:15] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, test
[17:16:16] <SWPadnos> lh LH yay!
[17:16:17] <A-L-P-H-A> HL, test.
[17:16:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> works nicley
[17:16:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that doesn't though
[17:16:24] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[17:16:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ;)
[17:16:41] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, is #1 working.
[17:16:44] <A-L-P-H-A> LH, is #2 working?
[17:16:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes
[17:16:56] <A-L-P-H-A> to...?
[17:16:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> case insensitive apparently
[17:16:59] <A-L-P-H-A> okie.
[17:17:01] <SWPadnos> don't forget "ell haitch"
[17:17:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[17:17:14] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, much better.
[17:17:17] <A-L-P-H-A> easier to type.
[17:17:22] <A-L-P-H-A> lerman, you can stay now. ;)
[17:17:31] <A-L-P-H-A> hehehehe.
[17:17:51] <A-L-P-H-A> shit, hungry... I think I'll get a pizza. or a slice or something.
[17:17:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> mmkay
[17:18:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> good idea
[17:18:12] <davidf> So, the verdict is ball end mill, multiple passes, eh?
[17:18:14] <A-L-P-H-A> time is 1:19... so I should go eat.
[17:18:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> davidf: I would think so
[17:18:37] <davidf> A-L-P-H-A, thanks.
[17:18:38] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, yes. rough it first, then do a dense overlay finishing pass.
[17:19:07] <davidf> dense overlay meaning small increments I assume?
[17:19:11] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, so like 1/4", and then go over with a 1/8" ball nose
[17:19:13] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, yes
[17:19:43] <SWPadnos> two passes, if the absolute dimensions of the part are important
[17:19:59] <davidf> I'd have thought small increments with the larger bit would be smoother. Larger radius, less grooving.
[17:20:17] <SWPadnos> one with a slightly larger cutter compensation than the cutter should need, then adjust cutter comp based on measuring the part
[17:20:33] <SWPadnos> that's true, geometrically speaking
[17:20:41] <davidf> Not critical, just needs to be very smooth.
[17:21:00] <SWPadnos> but of course the maximum feature size (or max curvature) is also that much larger
[17:21:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I don't think that really matters in this case
[17:21:23] <davidf> Cutter comp. is a real pain for me. I've just been doing it in the CAD
[17:21:34] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, with the 0.002" overlay, and a 3 step buffing compound, you'll come out crystal. :)
[17:21:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> A-L-P-H-A: why switch to a smaller cutter?
[17:21:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> davidf: surely the cam app has cutter comp?
[17:21:55] <SWPadnos> actually - you may need to , since emc doesn't take the tool shape into account (so it's less useful for 3D contouring applications)
[17:22:22] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, umm... just always been shown that method? So I just parrot it.
[17:22:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> emc can't do ballnose comp, as it doesn't know where on the nose it's cutting
[17:22:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> A-L-P-H-A: hmmm, ok
[17:22:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the only reason I can think of is a lessened cuttting force
[17:23:13] <SWPadnos> it may have to do with surface speed - a small cutter has less of a speed difference between the center and outside of the cutter
[17:23:23] <davidf> Here's an interesting idea I had... Use a 3 or 4 inch cutoof wheel at right a right angle to the work, Start at small end of the oval,
[17:23:34] <A-L-P-H-A> that's probably why... but usually I use different cutters, one roughing, and one finishing.
[17:24:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cutoof wheel?
[17:24:05] <A-L-P-H-A> cut off wheel
[17:24:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's that
[17:24:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I hda to read that twice to understand... but yeah, that'd work.
[17:24:19] <davidf> and then increase depth moving towards center, then decrease towards opposite end.
[17:24:21] <davidf> cut off.
[17:24:32] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, a thin grinding wheel.
[17:24:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, right
[17:24:55] <davidf> Only problem is it gives a sharp edge. No lip at the edge.
[17:25:14] <davidf> Like the ball end woulfd give.
[17:25:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> indeed
[17:25:57] <A-L-P-H-A> veal sandwich, or a pizza slice.
[17:26:00] <A-L-P-H-A> hmmmmmm.
[17:26:09] <A-L-P-H-A> veal sandwich it is.
[17:26:19] <davidf> Life's greatest challenge.
[17:26:27] <A-L-P-H-A> exactly.
[17:27:03] <davidf> veal is easier. No anchovy decisions.
[17:27:23] <A-L-P-H-A> ordered it.
[17:27:23] <davidf> K.I.S.S.
[17:27:27] <A-L-P-H-A> forgot how long it takes.
[17:27:48] <A-L-P-H-A> hung up, before I got the ETA.
[17:27:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll walk over there.
[17:28:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> also, no anchovies and you won't have to fight him: http://people.bu.edu/palantir/Bob%20P/Pictures/zoidhat.JPG
[17:29:15] <davidf> Heavens.
[17:29:45] <davidf> Now one more small prob.
[17:29:59] <davidf> I don't have any ball end mills. =)
[17:30:09] <davidf> Suggestions?
[17:30:19] <davidf> Enco?
[17:30:21] <SWPadnos> ebay, MSC, or Mcmaster would be a solution for that problem
[17:30:32] <davidf> sure.
[17:31:04] <davidf> Do you think I could do any good with a flat end & contouring ?
[17:31:18] <davidf> Oh, yeah. The middle would be flat.
[17:31:24] <davidf> Forgot that.
[17:32:12] <davidf> OK, guess I'll have to order a couple and wait.
[17:33:52] <davidf> By the way if you guys remember all the troble I was having a week or so ago, I'm pretty sure it was just that the female 25 pin PP coonectors on my controllers were too loose.
[17:34:28] <davidf> Probably due to the previous owner trying to use nails or the like to connect.
[17:35:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :|
[17:35:09] <davidf> So whenever the mill was a little rough at certain speeds, the connection would be bad from the vibration.
[17:35:32] <Jymmm> lucky you didn't blow out the drives
[17:35:33] <davidf> That's why it acted like resonance, but only intermittently
[17:35:45] <davidf> They're opto-isolated.
[17:35:54] <davidf> NP there.
[17:36:02] <Jymmm> geckos?
[17:36:25] <davidf> But what a dumb ass problem for all that head scratching!
[17:36:29] <davidf> Parker-Hanifins.
[17:36:37] <Jymmm> ah
[17:36:44] <davidf> member?
[17:37:20] <davidf> we all were going nuts trying to diagnose it? Frequency generator, etc?
[17:38:11] <davidf> Anyway, I found a cool way to fix that. Might be helpful to know sometime...
[17:38:17] <Jymmm> OT: 110VAC ---> DIMMER ---> XFMR ---> LOAD will the load voltage be the secondary voltage?
[17:38:56] <SWPadnos> 110VAC -> DIMMER -> XFMR is a bad plan
[17:39:04] <davidf> Right.
[17:39:21] <Jymmm> SWPadnos Yeah, I know it'll burn out the dimmer prematuraly, but they're cheap enough.
[17:39:33] <davidf> Inductive kick due to sharp waveform cutoff.
[17:39:35] <SWPadnos> the way dimmer switches work is to cut off part of the sinewave, so they introduce lots of higher frequency noise
[17:39:50] <davidf> Yes, and...
[17:39:57] <SWPadnos> the transformer won't work the same, since the spectrum won't be as expected
[17:40:06] <SWPadnos> (ie, pure 60 Hz)
[17:40:14] <Jymmm> the load is pure resistive
[17:40:33] <SWPadnos> this is aprimary side issue, not a load issue
[17:40:35] <davidf> right.
[17:41:07] <davidf> The way the dimmers work is a little like a PWM.
[17:41:17] <Jymmm> It does work; I've tried it.
[17:41:45] <SWPadnos> it'll work (visually at least), but it may not last, and it's a bad design anyway :)
[17:41:52] <SWPadnos> you can always put the dimmer on the load side though
[17:42:18] <Jymmm> Doesn't work on the load side... they're rated for 110, not 24
[17:42:20] <davidf> Yes it will work, but the triac will likely burn out.
[17:43:28] <davidf> The trigger happens when the RC charge reaches aboput 35 volts, the break-down voltage of a diac.
[17:43:37] <davidf> That trips the triac.
[17:43:52] <Jymmm> and the secondary is only 24vac
[17:43:54] <davidf> So V<35 wont ever trip the diac.
[17:43:58] <SWPadnos> ah
[17:44:31] <davidf> But you could open the unit and put in a lower voltage diac, I think.
[17:45:00] <Jymmm> they're either riveted or all solder together, either way a PITA
[17:45:00] <SWPadnos> yeah - a dimmer is just a triac and a variable resistor (plus a couple of other resistors, I think)
[17:45:06] <davidf> BTW, I found a cute way to opto couple those things.
[17:45:16] <Jymmm> davidf how?
[17:45:38] <davidf> You can replace the R in there with a CDS photocell. driven by an LED.
[17:45:45] <davidf> WQorks great.
[17:45:49] <davidf> +)
[17:46:27] <Jymmm> Sorry, I was thinking isolation. Why would you opto couple them?
[17:46:35] <davidf> So 5V to the led, Voila. 120 AC out.
[17:46:42] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[17:46:48] <Jymmm> low voltage controller
[17:47:13] <Jymmm> sorta like a SSR
[17:47:30] <davidf> Any time you need a 120 volt opto isolated switch, with variable RMS out.
[17:47:50] <davidf> (ie, you can still also use the dimmer knob in that config.)
[17:48:07] <davidf> SSR but with dimmer capability too.
[17:48:39] <Jymmm> cool, might try it out
[17:49:35] <Jymmm> ok, make to my original question.... would the load voltage be 24vac if the secondary is rated for 24vac ?
[17:49:38] <davidf> I put a CDS cell facing an LED into a Heat-shrink tube, & shrunk it.
[17:50:10] <Jymmm> davidf good idea.
[17:50:39] <davidf> The primary will filter the waveform. So the output voltage will vary non-linearly with duty cycle.
[17:51:06] <Jymmm> I'm just trying to determine if the secondary will be 24vac and perform like PWM
[17:51:32] <alex_joni> hi guys
[17:51:35] <davidf> The way those things work, is well, say you have it set somewhere around mid range...
[17:51:41] <davidf> Hey alex_joni .
[17:51:41] <Jymmm> hi alex
[17:51:50] <Jymmm> davidf k
[17:52:00] <davidf> Anyway, say ypou set it that way,
[17:52:18] <davidf> the dimmer output stays flat (0V)...
[17:52:31] <davidf> until the diac sees 35 V...
[17:53:05] <davidf> Then it goes fully on, and the output jumps straight up to the line voltage at that point in the cycle.
[17:53:25] <davidf> so you get a series of pulses, sort of...
[17:53:37] <Jymmm> ok
[17:53:43] <davidf> but instaed of hving a flat top,
[17:54:18] <davidf> the steps will look like vertical sides, with a sine wave shaped arch at the top.
[17:54:54] <davidf> So actually at the lowest setting, you are putting out 170 V peak short duration spikes.
[17:55:04] <alex_joni> Jymmm: imagine the diac as an AND-gate .. you feed a PWM (rectangular on/off) and the mains sine-wave. the output will be the sine-wave, but only when the pwm is on
[17:55:11] <davidf> The opposite of what one might intuitively expect.
[17:55:36] <davidf> That's why it's hard on the system with large inductive loads,
[17:55:55] <alex_joni> davidf: that's why I hate it when I drive my halogen lamps :D
[17:55:55] <davidf> & hard to theorize the outcome at any given setting.
[17:56:15] <A-L-P-H-A> what a freak'n AWESOME veal sandwich
[17:56:23] <alex_joni> especially because they are the type with a 220:12V transformer
[17:56:25] <A-L-P-H-A> with mushrooms, and green peppers.
[17:56:27] <davidf> +)
[17:56:43] <A-L-P-H-A> +) is that a cyclops happyface?
[17:57:04] <davidf> That's a cyclops happy typo.
[17:57:04] <Jymmm> alex_joni they have 110vac halgen replacement bulbs now that retrofit the 12v ones
[17:57:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> looks more like a dead cyclops happy face
[17:57:24] <A-L-P-H-A> btw... futurama is renewed! http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/06/22/new-episodes-of-futurama-coming-to-comedy-central-for-real/
[17:57:26] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I know.. but I have one of those 2-bar lamps, where you place spots on them
[17:57:26] <davidf> LOL
[17:57:28] <A-L-P-H-A> at least for one season.
[17:57:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni ah, ok.
[17:57:38] <alex_joni> Jymmm: wouldn't wanna drive mains through them for anyone to touch that
[17:57:51] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, machined the mould yet?
[17:57:51] <Jymmm> alex_joni but but but why not?!
[17:57:53] <A-L-P-H-A> ;)
[17:58:08] <alex_joni> Jymmm: because it's on the ceiling and they won't likely touch it
[17:58:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni just thinkg of it like this: a convient power source across your ceiling
[17:58:45] <davidf> A-L-P-H-A, not yet. I don't have any ball end mills, sadly.
[17:59:13] <alex_joni> Jymmm: enough sockes around the room.. thank you
[17:59:48] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, suppliers are open at this time? :) aren't they?
[18:00:03] <Jymmm> alex_joni What you dont like Christmas Tree tinsel flying up when the door opens on a windy day ?
[18:00:13] <davidf> Jymmm, what were you wanting to do with the dimmer?
[18:00:16] <A-L-P-H-A> you're in CST... your suppliers are open!
[18:00:24] <A-L-P-H-A> it's only 1pm... they'd all be back from lunch now. :)
[18:00:29] <Jymmm> davidf cheap hot wire controller
[18:00:43] <davidf> No local ones here for that kind of thing I think.
[18:00:43] <alex_joni> might work
[18:00:52] <Jymmm> davidf the xfmr is primarily for isolation
[18:01:38] <davidf> So you need a AC or DC (either) 0 - 24 volt or ther-abouts, fairly high current?
[18:01:44] <cradek> you need a variac
[18:02:07] <davidf> that would do it.
[18:02:14] <Jymmm> * Jymmm notes... when you make a hot wire cutter that plugs in DIRECTLY to 120VAC, be sure to peel off the metalic backing on the meterial
[18:02:38] <Jymmm> a variac wouldn't provide the isoltaion would it?
[18:03:04] <davidf> yes, if it's what I think.
[18:03:15] <davidf> A variable Xfrmr
[18:03:34] <Jymmm> oh, THAT variac.... I did say CHEAP
[18:04:12] <Jymmm> davidf cradek wrote that hemisphere program btw
[18:04:28] <davidf> OK, do you know your wattage range and preferred voltage range? Or current - voltage range?
[18:04:47] <davidf> it's nice.
[18:05:11] <Jymmm> davidf max? about 24v @ 4A
[18:05:22] <cradek> an old radio repair trick (if you don't need it to be continuously variable) is to put a light bulb socket in series with the transformer primary and use different wattage light bulbs.
[18:05:26] <davidf> ok.
[18:05:41] <Jymmm> cradek heh, I saw that =)
[18:06:11] <davidf> Wattage is really all you need to worry about so you're pretty free to go up/down on V*A=W
[18:06:46] <davidf> Yes. cheap power resistors.
[18:06:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> moo
[18:06:51] <cradek> true, power is the measure of the heat
[18:07:14] <davidf> You can also add bulbs in series to reduce or // to increase current.
[18:07:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (I felt a need to add to the conversation)
[18:07:31] <davidf> moo?
[18:07:43] <davidf> oink.
[18:07:47] <davidf> =)
[18:08:04] <Jymmm> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Bacon!
[18:08:14] <A-L-P-H-A> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Moron!
[18:08:22] <davidf> How about a lawn tractor 12 V battery.
[18:08:24] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, why do I like picking on you so much?
[18:08:49] <davidf> What type of wire are you using to cut with?
[18:08:54] <Jymmm> davidf It's gotta be 110vac source.
[18:09:03] <davidf> How come?
[18:09:11] <Jymmm> davidf NiChrome
[18:09:21] <davidf> Why AC?
[18:09:28] <Jymmm> davidf because ppl dont have car batteries in their home
[18:09:40] <davidf> Ah. For sale eh?
[18:09:57] <Jymmm> =)
[18:10:07] <davidf> OK, NiCr has a fair amt of R.
[18:10:32] <davidf> Just vary the length using your 24V Xfrmr
[18:11:07] <davidf> Wrap up the excess wire on a ceramic core, and put it in a box to shield the heat from the user.
[18:11:36] <davidf> (ie, make your own power resistor on the low volt side.
[18:12:00] <Jymmm> The idea of the dimmer is to make it user adjustable
[18:12:23] <Jymmm> they're cheap and easy to come by
[18:12:28] <davidf> You can wrap the wire on a round form with spacing between the coils and wipe it with a movable contact.
[18:12:43] <Jymmm> not user friendly
[18:12:55] <davidf> Or just buy a power potentiometer.
[18:12:59] <cradek> or just get a real wirewound rheostat for the secondary side
[18:13:05] <davidf> yes.
[18:13:16] <Jymmm> cradek such as?
[18:13:31] <cradek> calculate the necessary resistance and power, and order it
[18:13:34] <davidf> digi-key
[18:13:49] <Jymmm> how much are they (ball park) ?
[18:14:04] <cradek> depends greatly on the power, but not too bad
[18:14:15] <davidf> Jymmm, Here's what I'd do. experiment with various lengths of NiCr and voltage.
[18:14:23] <Jymmm> A dimmer is $2 at the hw store
[18:14:27] <davidf> Find the V / R range you need,
[18:14:37] <cradek> and that's $2 + time wasted when it blows up.
[18:15:10] <davidf> Measure the R of the wire at the max / min R and then figure you're actual length of cutter.
[18:15:24] <Jymmm> davidf the length will vary
[18:15:36] <davidf> Subtract that R of the cutter itself from the tolal. That's your Pot range.
[18:15:40] <davidf> Then Buy it.
[18:16:07] <A-L-P-H-A> if you've played video games... you should watch this... http://youtube.com/watch?v=GxSdKF5Fd38
[18:16:08] <Jymmm> Yeah, $67
[18:16:16] <Jymmm> from digikey
[18:16:18] <davidf> That's ok, You sould be able to get a Pot that will cover the range.
[18:16:18] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't neccessarily agree with the picks, but they're pretty goo
[18:16:20] <A-L-P-H-A> good
[18:16:41] <davidf> Oh... $67.00 is not good.
[18:17:01] <A-L-P-H-A> what are we buying?
[18:17:04] <A-L-P-H-A> or want to buy?
[18:17:21] <cradek> what wattage is $67?
[18:17:24] <Jymmm> I've already gone over this months ago, including having specially designed xfmr would for my and using a rotary switch.
[18:17:31] <Jymmm> 7.5W
[18:17:37] <davidf> OK, part of the design process is a give and take, a trade-off of capability vs cost & complexity.
[18:18:02] <davidf> So, figure your max length and min you're going to allow, & go from there.
[18:18:43] <davidf> Then you can use a bank of NiCr lengths in a box, with switches.
[18:19:04] <davidf> That's simple and cheap, if not elegant.
[18:19:39] <cradek> you can make a dac by making each wire twice the length of the previous
[18:19:40] <SWPadnos> a dimmer is also simple and cheap, if not elegant ;)
[18:19:59] <Jymmm> I am using a dimmer and xfmr, it's the cheapest solution that provides isolationfor the end user
[18:19:59] <cradek> that will give you the minimum number of switches
[18:20:26] <davidf> SWPadnos, but he doesnt want 120 V AC on the cutter.
[18:20:28] <cradek> um, if you had already decided why did you ask for advice?
[18:20:40] <Jymmm> Why I asked about the output voltage is becasue I wanted to add a secondary safety device in there
[18:21:11] <Jymmm> and I needed to know if the o/p voltage will be 24 or would it go below a certain point.
[18:21:15] <SWPadnos> what kind of power are you looking at?
[18:22:00] <Jymmm> ! 24v @ 4a
[18:22:03] <Jymmm> ~
[18:22:14] <SWPadnos> 100W then
[18:22:23] <Jymmm> yeah, about that
[18:22:30] <Jymmm> MAX
[18:22:42] <SWPadnos> a variable transformer is the ideal solution, from all aspects except price
[18:23:14] <Jymmm> Ok, do you guys know how you can take a relay and latch it like an alarm?
[18:23:24] <Jymmm> That's what I want to do on the load
[18:23:34] <SWPadnos> yes, if you have two outputs
[18:23:38] <Jymmm> so there's a START button that latches the relay,
[18:23:54] <Jymmm> Then if the load (hotwire) breaks, disengage the relay
[18:23:54] <davidf> The output voltage could actually go higher. Remember waht happens with coils and sharply rising/falling waveforms.
[18:24:24] <Jymmm> instead of just having two wires dangling in the air
[18:24:38] <Jymmm> two LIVE wires that is
[18:24:39] <SWPadnos> look at the second to last image on this page: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_4/chpt_10/2.html
[18:25:06] <Jymmm> But, I need to keep the relay engaged even when at it's lowest setting
[18:25:09] <SWPadnos> the chain with CR1, start, stop, and CR1 (circle) is a latching relay with start/stop
[18:25:33] <SWPadnos> you may get chatter with a dimmer or variac in the loop
[18:25:44] <Jymmm> SWPadnos I know how to do it, I was asking so they would under what I'm trying to accomplish.
[18:25:44] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure how to (inexpensively) correct that
[18:25:51] <SWPadnos> I see :)
[18:25:55] <Jymmm> =)
[18:26:40] <Jymmm> But, if I use a 12v relay, and the dimmer goes below a certain level, the relay will disengage
[18:26:52] <Jymmm> er 24v relay I meant
[18:27:18] <Jymmm> that's why I was asking if the o/p will be 24v, but just PWM
[18:28:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos in that diagram, I want the hotwire to be the "stop" button
[18:28:45] <SWPadnos> right - that's the problem. :)
[18:29:02] <Jymmm> exactly, and why I asked in the first place =)
[18:29:10] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, the relay won't disengage, if the pulses are shorter than the release time of the relay...
[18:29:16] <SWPadnos> it may work, as long as you turn it on with nearly full voltage, then ramp down. the holding voltage on most relays is significantly lower than the "operating voltage
[18:29:28] <SWPadnos> "
[18:29:29] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, that's how they're able to dim flourescent tubes.
[18:29:58] <Jymmm> but a 5v to 24v is a big swing
[18:30:04] <Jymmm> s/a//
[18:30:13] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, charge the ions, and before the ions completely discharge, pulse it again... this is about 44K hz or something like that... but it's better than a continuous charge. Saves a ton of energy actually... like 55% savings.
[18:32:26] <Jymmm> You know what, if I use davidf's opto coupler idea, and have an led+100K resistor tapped off the load, I could use the CDS as the STOP button
[18:32:44] <Jymmm> or a photoresistor
[18:33:19] <Jymmm> I really just need to know if the hotwire broke.
[18:33:19] <davidf> Jymmm, clrify this for mee...
[18:33:34] <davidf> You want to shut down power if the wire breaks?
[18:33:43] <A-L-P-H-A> fuse?
[18:33:44] <Jymmm> yeah
[18:33:48] <davidf> OK.
[18:34:05] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A fuse only works on a short, not open
[18:34:11] <davidf> How 'bout this?
[18:34:36] <davidf> Say you have a 500 ohm relay coil. That about right?
[18:34:58] <davidf> 120 VAC relay?
[18:35:20] <Jymmm> no 24v (on the secondary side)
[18:35:24] <davidf> no.. 24 I guess.
[18:35:29] <davidf> ok.
[18:36:35] <davidf> How 'bout you connect the relay across the cutting wire, with a series restance in line with the coil...
[18:36:50] <Jymmm> the load goes up too
[18:37:17] <Jymmm> 100Watts
[18:37:17] <davidf> I think you could work it out so that the cutting wire shunts the current away from the coil so long as it is intact...
[18:37:46] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, when you're done this... [as this is convo seems useful and important] got more photos of your work?
[18:37:48] <davidf> And the relay will pull in if the wire breaks, removing the semi-short across the coil.
[18:38:27] <davidf> Then you'd have an active - on protective circuit.
[18:38:46] <davidf> Yes, but not on-line.
[18:39:04] <davidf> I'll get you some links when I can get to it.
[18:39:18] <davidf> Jymmm, get the drift?
[18:39:20] <Jymmm> davidf I'd prefer a fail-safe (open) method instead. But I understand what you're saying.
[18:39:37] <davidf> Right, me too. But, consider...
[18:39:50] <Jymmm> You know what I need, one of those lil "your headlight is burned out" things
[18:40:05] <Jymmm> I'll have to look that up agian.
[18:40:34] <Jymmm> I think it might be what you just mentioned
[18:40:49] <davidf> We don't want the thing to fail with power on, but unless the relay malfunctions or something, the other main problem with active circuits is if the power fails, but in that case there's no juice there anyway.
[18:41:53] <davidf> I still think you should be able to use low voltage high current some way.
[18:43:02] <davidf> Do you have any data on range of wattage you need? It's hard to design a ckt till you've defined the problem fairly well, so there's some numbers to work with.
[18:44:10] <davidf> like what minimum current? If you're using AC and you're goingh down to zero, that's a tough one.
[18:44:56] <Jymmm> If I parelled a led and resistor and used a photo diode, Then I could tell if any voltage is going across the wire (shorted) or if it broke (open)
[18:45:35] <davidf> You'll get pulses on the LED, not DC.
[18:45:39] <Jymmm> then make the photo diode the STOP button in the doagram SWPadnos gave
[18:46:01] <davidf> Wait I don't understand I think.
[18:46:08] <Jymmm> davidf wouldn't matter too much, just toss in a cap to hold the relay closed
[18:46:37] <davidf> If you filter the waveform, you'll have a delay from the RC filter.
[18:46:54] <Jymmm> davidf All I need to know is if there is a complete ciruit or if it's open.
[18:47:24] <Jymmm> if theres any voltage across the load at all, it's a complete circuit.
[18:47:34] <davidf> Right. But it's the high voltage there that make it a bit tricky to just detect a connection.
[18:47:49] <davidf> Hmm...
[18:48:15] <Jymmm> (if I knew how to make an induction current thingy, I'd be happy)
[18:48:35] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, have you fixed your ati driver issues?
[18:48:55] <SWPadnos> nope - haven't tried lately
[18:49:01] <Jymmm> like a clamp on amp meter
[18:49:16] <davidf> You could maybe bypass the AC ahead of your detector circuit with an RC filter.
[18:50:05] <Jymmm> what about an scr? could that maintain it's latch using AC ?
[18:50:30] <Jymmm> and use the scr as the STOP button?
[18:51:00] <davidf> An SCR will stay on till you remove the voltage.
[18:51:15] <Jymmm> but I thought SCR was primarily a DC device
[18:51:19] <davidf> But with AC that means 120 times/second.
[18:51:56] <Jymmm> and then toss in the dimmer, and it can be even more, correct?
[18:52:05] <davidf> Yes, it's primarily used for DC.
[18:52:27] <Jymmm> SCR and a cap?
[18:52:45] <davidf> Yes, double that.
[18:53:22] <davidf> Jymmm, I really think you should go for the low-voltage design. Much safer.
[18:54:10] <davidf> With say 12V high current you don't really need anything for protection if the wire breaks right?
[18:54:23] <Jymmm> davidf Well the OPEN deteor is an added bonus, not a absolute.
[18:54:53] <davidf> You can still do that with low voltage though.
[18:55:12] <Jymmm> sure, but I lose the variable abaility
[18:55:38] <Jymmm> aka no adjutement knob
[18:56:54] <davidf> No, I don't think you'd have to give that up.
[18:58:13] <davidf> Let me give it some thought for a while. You should be able to use a 120 volt dimmer on the low side with a different diac that has a lower breakdown voltage.
[18:58:28] <davidf> Let me check something on line for a sec.
[18:58:35] <Jymmm> k
[18:58:37] <alex_joni> night all
[18:58:43] <Jymmm> night alex
[19:02:00] <davidf> nite alex_joni
[19:02:29] <davidf> OK, the lowest break-over voltage diac on digikey is 27V
[19:03:35] <davidf> But, two Zener diodes back to back might do it. I'll need awhile to ponder that, but I'm pretty sure you can make a low voltage dimmer without much fuss or cost.
[19:04:22] <davidf> I'll try to rig something up here if I have the parts on hand & get back to you on that.
[19:04:52] <davidf> A regular dimmer with that substitution should work.
[19:05:12] <Jymmm> davidf np, Appreciate the effort, but dont go to all that trouble. I'm probably gonna use the 110vac route.
[19:06:24] <Jymmm> btw... (replace fuse with hotwire) Blown fuses can be detected using an LED (including series resistor) in parallel with the fuse. When the fuse is open, the LED lights up.
[19:07:39] <davidf> Yes, thats the basic active fail safe thing.
[19:08:36] <davidf> Digikey SSR ($23.00 though) http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=285596&Row=351475&Site=US
[19:10:14] <davidf> I really really would advise you not to make a 120 volt system for commercial sale. It's just an unnecessary risk, IMO.
[19:12:22] <Jymmm> they are already out in the market. just w/o the "broken wire" detector.
[19:12:42] <davidf> And, driving a transformer primary from a dimmer is pretty sure bet for circuit failure.
[19:13:03] <Jymmm> they are using the ceiling fan type dimmers
[19:13:23] <Jymmm> aka inductive load
[19:14:03] <davidf> Just because they are out there doesn't mean it's a robust or safe design though. Anyway, that's my take on it for what it's worth.
[19:14:18] <davidf> Oh, ok. I feel better about that then.
[19:14:25] <davidf> But at what cost?
[19:14:35] <Jymmm> $100
[19:14:45] <davidf> uh huh.
[19:14:48] <davidf> =)
[19:15:18] <Jymmm> but *I* have consider assembly time too
[19:15:28] <davidf> sure...
[19:15:29] <Jymmm> and of course logistics
[19:16:02] <Jymmm> if I have to order 400 every time, to get a good price, I'm screwed as a new product.
[19:16:36] <Jymmm> Logistics has always been my downfall it seems.
[19:16:45] <davidf> Electric stove controls use a bi-metal strip to open and close based on the average current through them. They are cheap.
[19:17:15] <davidf> It might be possible to use one on the low side. I don't know.
[19:18:12] <Jymmm> that makes three of us =)
[19:20:24] <Jymmm> davidf: btw... broken link when clicking on the image.... http://www.artintheround.com/page3.html
[19:20:36] <davidf> A low mass wire may heat up to fast for effective control of ripple in the temperature plot though. That'd be my guess. Average temperature, but too high & too low between cycles I think.
[19:21:17] <davidf> hmm... I got there ok.
[19:21:31] <Jymmm> click on the image
[19:21:43] <Jymmm> the teardrop shaped one
[19:22:04] <Jymmm> (c) 2004
[19:22:12] <davidf> Oh. I see. Right.
[19:22:17] <Jymmm> =)
[19:22:32] <davidf> OK thanks. I actually didn't want any link there at all.
[19:22:36] <davidf> +)
[19:23:01] <davidf> there's that cyclops again.
[19:23:20] <Jymmm> davidf is respect to the marble in your logo... what are easier, larger ones or smaller ones?
[19:24:14] <davidf> Smaller usually.
[19:24:33] <davidf> My torch can only go up to about an inch diameter.
[19:24:43] <Jymmm> what diameter is the marble?
[19:24:53] <davidf> That on is about 7/8 inch
[19:24:53] <Jymmm> (nothing to ref it againest)
[19:24:58] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[19:25:18] <davidf> I've seen 3 inch marbles on ebay go for $500.00
[19:25:30] <davidf> Not mine though. =)
[19:26:01] <Jymmm> http://www.artintheround.com/beadpage.html the largest bead in the necklace, could that be put into clear glass marble easily?
[19:26:47] <davidf> sure.
[19:27:21] <Jymmm> how much would something like that go for (ballpark) ?
[19:27:47] <davidf> You mean clear instaed of brown background, or the whole thing encased in clear?
[19:27:55] <Jymmm> encased
[19:28:35] <davidf> Maybe $35.00 - $40.00 or so.
[19:29:16] <davidf> Maybe farr less on ebay at auction. Depends on who's bidding at the moment, & what you'd start it at.
[19:29:27] <davidf> Why, want one?
[19:29:42] <Jymmm> davidf: Ok, I have an idea for something, but I need to takes some pics first.
[19:29:49] <davidf> k
[19:29:50] <Jymmm> takes?! lol
[19:30:17] <davidf> you pays your nickle and you takes your chances.
[19:30:28] <davidf> nickel.
[19:30:50] <davidf> Don't know what that means, but it sounds profound.
[19:30:52] <Jymmm> lol, I know where you live, I'll come hunt you down like the glass crafter you are! =)
[19:31:16] <davidf> ???
[19:31:22] <Jymmm> Actualyl it's embedding multiple items in clear marble
[19:31:49] <davidf> Clear glass you mean?
[19:32:03] <Jymmm> that was my retort to your "...you take your chances" comment =)
[19:32:04] <davidf> not stone marble.
[19:32:09] <les_w> hi david and jymmm
[19:32:10] <Jymmm> correct
[19:32:11] <davidf> ah.
[19:32:13] <Jymmm> hey les
[19:32:33] <Jymmm> hold on let me see if I can find a pic....
[19:33:31] <davidf> No, that was just something I heard once. Didn't mean it as a retort. =)
[19:33:34] <davidf> k
[19:33:38] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, how to prevent air bubbles in the glass?
[19:34:38] <davidf> Slow pace adding, not too hot on the torch. So the glass doesn't boil. Add glass carefully so as not to entrap air.
[19:35:10] <A-L-P-H-A> and if air does get there? can you take it out?
[19:35:12] <davidf> Takes a lot of patience and practice.
[19:35:19] <A-L-P-H-A> how does a freak'n marble cost $500??
[19:35:20] <davidf> And failures.
[19:35:22] <davidf> =)
[19:35:36] <A-L-P-H-A> like the round marbles,I used to play with when I was a kid?
[19:35:40] <davidf> Collector's item from a well known maker.
[19:35:45] <A-L-P-H-A> I remember oilers, catseyes, stuff.
[19:36:02] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, are you well known yet? How about a freebie sample? ;)
[19:36:10] <davidf> How does a pet rock cost $6.00?
[19:36:21] <Jymmm> great marketing
[19:36:33] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, yo call in Jymmm, and you use whiteout to paint eyes on it.
[19:36:48] <A-L-P-H-A> you call it
[19:36:50] <davidf> A-L-P-H-A, yes, but gorgeous and huge. (3 inches dia.)
[19:36:59] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, photos?
[19:37:06] <davidf> ha.
[19:37:11] <A-L-P-H-A> that's a big ass marble.
[19:37:15] <davidf> of the marble?
[19:37:23] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah. the marble.
[19:37:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't want pictures of jymmm... it'd break my monitors, not to mention the high probablity of going blind.
[19:37:47] <davidf> Long since gone off ebay. That was a couple years ago... Hold on a sec...
[19:37:53] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A enough.
[19:37:59] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm... :P
[19:38:42] <Bo^Dick> why are decoupling caps between the VCC and GND pins on ttl circuits?
[19:39:55] <Jymmm> davidf something sorta like this, encased in a clear marble http://www.parrotjewelry.com/images/smallsunconurependant.jpg or http://www.parrotjewelry.com/images/jendaysundangles.jpg
[19:40:06] <davidf> http://cgi.ebay.com/Oil-Realism-Glass-Marble-Jeff-Cohen-Listed-eMOMA_W0QQitemZ120017860304QQihZ002QQcategoryZ20135QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:40:15] <SWPadnos> Bo^Dick, so that high frequency noise can be shunted to ground through the cap, rather than the device it's protecting
[19:40:41] <Bo^Dick> ok, what value is typical for them?
[19:40:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err, excuse my impudence but what's so special about that marble?
[19:41:17] <SWPadnos> depends on the noise you're trying to filter, but I think something in the 0.1 uF range is common
[19:41:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> OH!, its a painting
[19:41:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I thought it was a marble
[19:42:50] <davidf> I've not done much sculptural work Jymmm . That would be a challenge but maybe I'll have a go at it just to see what I can do with it.
[19:43:29] <Jymmm> davidf: ah, ok.
[19:43:49] <davidf> Lerneaen_Hydra, the marble is in the ebay link above.
[19:43:54] <A-L-P-H-A> damn pretty. http://cgi.ebay.com/Marbles-glass-marble-Coupal-latticinio-core-1-5-2006_W0QQitemZ330014799387QQihZ014QQcategoryZ236QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:44:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, now that's more like it :D
[19:44:30] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, your oil realism glass marble is a painting.
[19:44:30] <A-L-P-H-A> :P
[19:44:58] <davidf> hmm... thanks I think?
[19:45:18] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, you're welcome. :P
[19:45:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'm not entirely sure though, uh, the first link was a painting
[19:45:29] <davidf> The oil realism glass marble on ebay is not mine.
[19:45:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the second a physical marble
[19:45:33] <A-L-P-H-A> can you make a marble like that? http://cgi.ebay.com/Marbles-glass-marble-Coupal-latticinio-core-1-5-2006_W0QQitemZ330014799387QQihZ014QQcategoryZ236QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:45:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, that's what I though
[19:46:04] <A-L-P-H-A> kind of reminds me of the AT&T logo
[19:47:21] <A-L-P-H-A> uhhh... am I the onlysick one? http://cgi.ebay.com/Marbles-glass-art-marble-cane-Maslach-2006-3-75-x-1_W0QQitemZ330016303576QQihZ014QQcategoryZ236QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem does that look like some adult playtoy
[19:47:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :|
[19:47:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> indeed it does
[19:47:58] <cradek> aside from that it's very cool
[19:48:06] <A-L-P-H-A> now, this is beautiful. http://cgi.ebay.com/Paperweight-glass-marble-artist-Cathy-Richardson-4-25_W0QQitemZ330017120990QQihZ014QQcategoryZ236QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:48:12] <cradek> I can't imagine how to make such a thing
[19:48:14] <A-L-P-H-A> must be super hard to make that.
[19:48:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> gah!
[19:48:22] <davidf> A-L-P-H-A, I don't really make many marbles. But the techniques are pretty standard for that. Latticino is done by striping a clear rod with colored stringers of glass, then encasing in more clear, then twisting .
[19:48:50] <robin_sz> I note the listing finishes with: "Satisfaction Guaranteed!!!!" ;)
[19:48:55] <A-L-P-H-A> cradek, vertical stripes, bonded to a single shaft, with coating of clear around it... heated up, and twisted.
[19:48:58] <davidf> I could make a smaller version, but I'm limited to about one inch with my small torch.
[19:49:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> davidf: how do you grip the marble and twist it without deforming it?
[19:49:11] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf. :)
[19:49:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> also, how do you get the twist evenly distributed, not just near the poles?
[19:49:42] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf. I know how to get the twisting in threory... but not the bulge in the centre.
[19:50:00] <davidf> First you make a cylindrical rod, as A-L-P-H-A said.
[19:50:10] <A-L-P-H-A> Lerneaen_Hydra, just like iron working... heating a specific section only.
[19:50:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:50:31] <davidf> Then you begin forming the marble by melting it into an essentially round shape.
[19:50:48] <davidf> The surface tension tends to make it ball up.
[19:51:23] <davidf> At this point, you're holding the marble with the glass rod connected to it.
[19:51:24] <A-L-P-H-A> there's a glass blowing class not too far from me.
[19:51:45] <A-L-P-H-A> only if I had a need to make pipes, dildos, or marbles.
[19:51:49] <davidf> Then you spin and roll the marble in a graphite cup.
[19:52:25] <davidf> After it's round, then you use a 'punty' rod to hold the other end.
[19:52:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, so the graphite acts as resistance?
[19:52:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so you get an even twist?
[19:52:47] <davidf> That's just a glass rod lightly tacked to the marble.
[19:53:30] <davidf> Then you repair your original attachment point by flame polishing and smoothing in the cup, etc.
[19:53:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:54:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the cup is spherical I assume
[19:54:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so one cup per marble size?
[19:54:25] <davidf> Finally you burn off your punty rob and finish up by holding the slightly cooled solidified marble with a cup shaped tongs.
[19:54:34] <davidf> end of glass 101.
[19:54:37] <davidf> =)
[19:54:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice :)
[19:54:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how long does it take to make a simple one?
[19:54:53] <A-L-P-H-A> lerman, probably not... you're spinning it inside the cup.
[19:55:23] <davidf> No, if the thing is properly cooled, you can hold a 2 inch marble with a 1/2 inch cup.
[19:55:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra gets the feeling lerman is goint to have lots of false pointers
[19:56:30] <davidf> The trick is getting all tool marks and punty marks out, while keeping the glass hot enough to work, and cool enough to not make more marks,
[19:56:45] <davidf> without letting it cool so much it cracks!
[19:57:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm so used to typing three characters, then then tab.
[19:57:26] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, sorry
[19:58:01] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, if it cracks, does it just split, or shatters?
[19:58:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err, sorry?
[19:58:19] <A-L-P-H-A> lh, nice triggering
[19:58:21] <A-L-P-H-A> nick
[19:58:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[19:58:51] <davidf> time to make just a plain clear marble for me on my torch is maybe 15 min. for a 3/4 inch marble. But probably more like 1/2 hour since I don't do many marbles and I'm not super good at it.
[19:59:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:59:56] <davidf> Thermal shock can often just make a tiny 'tink' you can barely hear, and an internal crack/.
[20:00:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> not fun
[20:00:17] <lerman> My ears are ringing. Did someone ring my bell? :-)
[20:00:26] <davidf> Anything from that to litterally hundreds of tiny pieces flying everywhere.
[20:01:57] <davidf> The first thing you learn aboput glass is patience and being prepared to see 2 hours work go tink at the last minute.
[20:02:25] <davidf> I have a can full of frit to prove it. =)
[20:03:39] <A-L-P-H-A> Anita Bell!
[20:04:25] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, at least the glass is recyclable. :)
[20:05:05] <davidf> Not much consolation I'm afraid.
[20:05:18] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A not if the colored glass is already mixed together
[20:05:30] <davidf> Jymmm, you still there?
[20:05:40] <davidf> Oh you are.
[20:05:46] <Jymmm> davidf: No, leave a msg at the beeeeeep =)
[20:06:00] <A-L-P-H-A> okay... back to my question, no one answered earlier.
[20:06:02] <davidf> Did you mean you wanted that actual piece inside a marble?
[20:06:08] <A-L-P-H-A> does EMC work with dapper drake now?
[20:06:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes
[20:06:18] <Jymmm> davidf: Yes. actually three of them.
[20:06:22] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A yes
[20:06:30] <davidf> What material is it?
[20:06:31] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, as of...?
[20:06:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you need to switch the breezy references in the install script for dapper
[20:06:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as of... weeks ago
[20:06:54] <Jymmm> davidf Those are polymer clay, but I've seen them in glass too
[20:06:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> maybe a month
[20:07:07] <A-L-P-H-A> okie
[20:07:09] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A look at the website
[20:07:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I use it on my lathe
[20:07:18] <davidf> OK, so I could make the parrot in glass and encase it right?
[20:07:19] <Jymmm> there's a seperate install script for 6
[20:07:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> works fine
[20:07:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, they've done that?
[20:07:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice
[20:08:01] <Jymmm> davidf Sure, but I meant I was looking at three parrots in one marble
[20:08:09] <davidf> Geez.
[20:08:13] <Jymmm> lol
[20:08:31] <davidf> Can't you think of something more difficult? =)
[20:08:49] <davidf> That's probably beyond me.
[20:08:59] <Jymmm> davidf Actually, can you make 18 cockatiels in a 1" marble?
[20:09:27] <davidf> It's hard to keep everything hot and happy without melting anything, and the more complex, the harder it is.
[20:09:43] <Jymmm> davidf I figured, that's why I asked
[20:09:46] <davidf> There is a method I don't do, that would allow that though.
[20:10:08] <davidf> It's the way complex paper weights etc are made.
[20:10:16] <Jymmm> ah
[20:10:29] <A-L-P-H-A> ooooooooooh. something I think would be cool... that spiral latticinio, rounded, with the outside instead of a marble, a CUBE! I think that would be really neat looking.
[20:10:31] <davidf> You make the thing to be inserted off hand.
[20:10:39] <davidf> (ie, on a glass rod.
[20:10:51] <A-L-P-H-A> you'd have to cut and polish... but the end result would be outstanding I think.
[20:11:30] <davidf> Then you put it in a special little crucible, and force melted glass over it using a vacuum pump, and cast the whole thing.
[20:12:27] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, sure. :) however it'd be made doesn't matter... the end result matters only. So sacrafice as many small puppies as needed to accomplish the goals.
[20:12:48] <A-L-P-H-A> just try to make the deaths as quick and painless as possible.
[20:13:09] <A-L-P-H-A> I try and be random... but sometimes I just surprise myself.
[20:13:11] <robin_sz> or, if they are lingering deaths ...
[20:13:18] <robin_sz> video them
[20:13:29] <A-L-P-H-A> and send them to PITA, or the local SPCA.
[20:13:32] <davidf> you guys are all sick.
[20:13:35] <davidf> =)
[20:13:54] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf... fine... kittens, or small children... whatever floats your boat.
[20:14:12] <robin_sz> when you put a puppy in a mincer, do you kow why you shoudl always put it in tail first?
[20:14:26] <A-L-P-H-A> so you can
[20:14:30] <A-L-P-H-A> see the expression on it's face
[20:14:36] <robin_sz> exactly :)
[20:14:44] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.dead-baby-joke.com/dbj_001.htm
[20:14:50] <A-L-P-H-A> I read them all two days ago.
[20:14:50] <davidf> OK now I'm going to puke. Back in a sec...
[20:14:53] <A-L-P-H-A> only 22 pages
[20:14:57] <robin_sz> heh
[20:15:25] <A-L-P-H-A> what's the difference between 10 dead babies, and a ferrari?
[20:15:33] <robin_sz> mmm? go on.
[20:15:36] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't have a ferrari in my garage.
[20:15:41] <robin_sz> heh
[20:15:57] <A-L-P-H-A> Why are test tube babies the most beautiful ones?
[20:15:58] <A-L-P-H-A> Because they're hand made.
[20:16:11] <robin_sz> yowl.
[20:16:15] <A-L-P-H-A> How do you stop a baby crawling round in circles ?
[20:16:15] <A-L-P-H-A> Nail its other hand to the floor.
[20:16:31] <robin_sz> you doing htes from memory>
[20:16:33] <robin_sz> ?
[20:16:43] <A-L-P-H-A> No
[20:16:55] <davidf> Probably inventing as he goes.
[20:17:06] <A-L-P-H-A> well... the first two, but the other ones are posts from the dead-bab-joke.com site
[20:17:19] <A-L-P-H-A> How do you stop a baby falling down a manhole?
[20:17:19] <A-L-P-H-A> Stick a javelin through it's head.
[20:17:39] <A-L-P-H-A> How do you keep a baby from turning a corner in the hall?
[20:17:44] <A-L-P-H-A> keep that javelin in.
[20:17:56] <A-L-P-H-A> How many babies does it take to paint a house?
[20:17:56] <A-L-P-H-A> Depends how hard you throw them.
[20:18:06] <davidf> How do you make A-L-P-H-A stop making sick jokes?
[20:18:20] <davidf> You don't I'll wager.
[20:18:37] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf... oh common. it's funny if just accept it's disguisting, and just humour.
[20:18:44] <A-L-P-H-A> but I'll stop.
[20:18:49] <robin_sz> awwww.
[20:18:55] <davidf> Just kidding A-L-P-H-A
[20:20:54] <davidf> A-L-P-H-A, have you ever read the Darwin awards?
[20:21:00] <A-L-P-H-A> davidf, yup
[20:21:58] <davidf> Ever read the one about the guy that had a block & tackle up a tree or something and ended up going up & down like three times
[20:22:19] <davidf> Can't remember the whole thing, just that I LMAO
[20:22:20] <A-L-P-H-A> that was shown on myth busters.
[20:22:43] <davidf> With thge bushel basket gfull of tools, etc?
[20:22:55] <robin_sz> its an old joke that one
[20:23:02] <robin_sz> usually done by an irish man
[20:23:06] <A-L-P-H-A> the guy is supposed to unload a bucket full of bricks...
[20:23:17] <davidf> Yeah, it was like ten years ago I read that one.
[20:23:18] <A-L-P-H-A> bucket falls off scafolding, and throws him up in the air.
[20:23:30] <davidf> right.
[20:23:32] <A-L-P-H-A> bucket crashes, empties the load, causing him to fall
[20:23:48] <A-L-P-H-A> and then the buck comes back down, and kills him.
[20:23:57] <A-L-P-H-A> something like that
[20:24:23] <davidf> Right. But he wasn't killed, just massively injured.
[20:24:51] <davidf> What I read was supposed to be his explanation to his insurance adjuster.
[20:25:05] <davidf> Or something like that.
[20:27:04] <davidf> Gotta go guys. Back to work.
[20:27:35] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.darwinawards.com/
[20:28:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> bye
[20:30:06] <danex> hello all
[20:30:35] <davidf> Yeah A-L-P-H-A the one were were talking about is the Brick Layer - rt side of home page.
[20:30:55] <davidf> Thanks for the link.
[20:31:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi danex
[20:31:52] <davidf> Bye...
[20:39:15] <danex> I am trying to add blocks to my hal file and get message "unknown symbol in module" any ideas why?
[20:41:39] <rayh> What version of emc are you using?
[20:42:35] <danex> It apears in both 2.0.1 and 2.0.3
[20:43:26] <rayh> Which config are you starting before you try to add blocks?
[20:43:51] <danex> Motenc
[20:44:33] <rayh> Okay. What command are you using to attempt to add blocks.
[20:45:39] <danex> loadrt blocks ddt=6 hypot=2 wcomp=3
[20:46:08] <rayh> Let me try that here.
[20:49:43] <rayh> ddt works the others fail on my 2.0.3
[20:51:16] <danex> I have not tried ddt alone
[20:52:47] <danex> The message makes a reference to a file blocks.ko
[20:53:02] <rayh> hypot is the problem.
[20:53:34] <rayh> loadrt blocks ddt=6 wcomp=3
[20:53:38] <rayh> works for me here.
[20:55:22] <rayh> ah I don't see a hypot in the manual for blocks.
[20:55:37] <danex> I am getting out my documents on hal
[20:57:48] <cradek> hypot is pretty new, jepler and I put it there for testing some stuff
[20:59:05] <rayh> I was looking at the doc generated on tuesday.
[20:59:27] <danex> jepler sent me some test files last night
[21:00:05] <cradek> you're trying to get a in-motion to run your brakes right?
[21:00:17] <danex> that is where the hypot info was from
[21:00:35] <danex> cradek yes
[21:00:54] <cradek> instead of using hypot, you could just sum the three axes's motion, it'll be close enough for your purposes I think
[21:01:26] <cradek> it's not really the tangential velocity anymore, but it does go to zero when you stop just the same
[21:01:38] <cradek> no, that won't work
[21:01:54] <cradek> you would need to add the absolute values of those velocities
[21:02:18] <cradek> or the squares
[21:03:08] <danex> would that allow individual brakes to operate while keeping others engaged
[21:03:46] <cradek> no, I forgot what you were doing I guess
[21:03:58] <cradek> what was he using hypot for?
[21:06:01] <danex> I did not ask about the individual items, just about documentation, the documentation does not include hypot as yet
[21:06:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> random q. hypot is sqrt(a^2+b^2)?
[21:06:40] <cradek> yes
[21:07:00] <cradek> danex: the hypot isn't even used for the inpos stuff, just take it out
[21:07:15] <danex> Ok
[21:07:42] <danex> I will test it in the morning
[21:08:21] <robin_sz> dang ... my mate just got a great ebay baragin!
[21:08:47] <robin_sz> full 3 axis motion system, including gantry etc, 1m x 1m area
[21:08:53] <danex> A question about updates, they be done when ubuntu reports available?
[21:08:58] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz. nice.
[21:09:00] <A-L-P-H-A> cost?
[21:09:06] <robin_sz> £200 ... including drives for the motors ...
[21:09:15] <robin_sz> and a motion card
[21:09:35] <robin_sz> and the motors are 600N linear motors
[21:09:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nice...
[21:09:46] <robin_sz> with rennishaw encoders on the axes
[21:09:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how sturdy?
[21:10:04] <robin_sz> looks good.
[21:10:11] <robin_sz> wait, I find it.
[21:11:18] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/XYZ-Automation-Machine-Linear-Motors-Control-Systems_W0QQitemZ110021408611QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42899QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[21:12:24] <robin_sz> frame is 80mm box section
[21:14:22] <robin_sz> jealous yet>
[21:14:25] <robin_sz> ??
[21:15:58] <danex> cradek and rayh, thank you for the help
[21:17:19] <robin_sz> http://www.porkolt.com/other/jet/gokart/jet-propelled-gokart-4863.html
[21:17:25] <robin_sz> tee hee, thats kewl :)
[21:51:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> robin_sz: !! I want that rig!
[21:51:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> indeed I am
[22:03:35] <dmessier> hi all ; )
[22:04:57] <Jymmm> hi dmessier
[22:05:11] <dmessier> 'sup
[22:15:47] <A-L-P-H-A> soup
[22:42:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night people
[23:01:26] <dmessier> got the retirement plan up to 8 spindles and many dollars... but friends and ppl in the know say GO for IT
[23:02:54] <Jymmm> They'll always say that, not their money.
[23:25:38] <dmessier> nor mine... ; )
[23:26:08] <dmessier> BUT i have the WORK...
[23:26:41] <Jymmm> lol
[23:27:03] <dmessier> i'm looking at subing some of it out to local friends who have spindles waiting
[23:27:54] <dmessier> i wanna set up for a few major parts and pull it in as its set up
[23:27:54] <Jymmm> lil trolls of spindles huh?
[23:28:34] <dmessier> they're EVERYWHERE they're EVERYWHERE
[23:29:27] <dmessier> her in southern ontario stuffs goin bump up every day... theres an auction
[23:30:15] <dmessier> gotta survive to stay alive...
[23:39:49] <Jymmm> you know it