#emc | Logs for 2006-08-06

[00:00:20] <davidf> Boy 1/2 hour of this is going to make me buggy. So far, no problems though. Been running about 5 min.
[00:00:42] <alex_joni> davidf: you said last time it ran 10 mins before the problem?
[00:01:07] <davidf> yes, once. But usually within 1 to 3 minutes or so.
[00:01:38] <davidf> I'm going to let it run a looong time or till it stalls.
[00:02:03] <davidf> Man I think I'l change the freq. though.
[00:08:15] <davidf> OK it's now at 3.33 kHz, 1000 RPM. Still going...
[00:08:55] <alex_joni> oh-oh..
[00:09:01] <jmkasunich> ?
[00:09:01] <alex_joni> might be the input afterall
[00:09:29] <jmkasunich> davidf: have you run the rtai latency test?
[00:09:38] <davidf> ratger that than $900.00 worth of drives. :) :) :)
[00:10:03] <davidf> cradek, isnt that what we did the other night?
[00:10:04] <alex_joni> it's still the drives fault
[00:10:12] <alex_joni> they should be more fault tolerant :)
[00:10:31] <davidf> Probably are, just not fool tolerant.
[00:10:55] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/common/ (10 files): moved common lyx and images over, older commit history can be found in the documents module
[00:10:58] <alex_joni> I seriously dount the fool part (after tonights talk :)
[00:11:04] <alex_joni> s/dount/doubt/
[00:11:09] <davidf> There is viscous damping, anti resonance, etc.
[00:11:32] <davidf> gee thanks.
[00:11:39] <davidf> But you're naive.
[00:11:41] <davidf> :)
[00:11:46] <alex_joni> lol, might be so :D
[00:12:08] <cradek> we did run the latency test, and it was fine except when he pressed Break on the keyboard
[00:12:46] <davidf> The one K clock was too fast to start the motor so I had to kludge a freq generator I could take up slowly.
[00:13:00] <alex_joni> davidf: big cap ?
[00:13:08] <jmkasunich> pot I bet
[00:13:17] <davidf> 0.47uF
[00:13:21] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wins
[00:13:27] <davidf> & a couple pots.
[00:13:29] <jmkasunich> :-P
[00:13:31] <alex_joni> :P
[00:13:42] <cradek> it's good that it's going fast enough that accel is required, otherwise it won't actually stall
[00:14:05] <alex_joni> I made a wire feeder once with a 555 driving a gecko
[00:14:58] <davidf> Looks like it-s somethin in the input. But I think it's my rat's nest protoboard. You should see all the crap all over my bench, no shielding either.
[00:15:26] <skunkworks> my board is suspended by the wires - is that wrong?
[00:15:29] <davidf> Oh, and hey, how bout this?
[00:15:53] <davidf> I have old fsioned two conductor wiring in this place.
[00:16:01] <davidf> Ha.
[00:16:11] <cradek> and no isolation on your motor drives
[00:16:21] <jmkasunich> no ground?
[00:16:25] <davidf> Drives have a pin labeled 'EARTH'
[00:16:47] <davidf> That suggests they want real stiff ground wouldn't you say?
[00:17:07] <davidf> In that system the neutral is the ground.
[00:17:37] <davidf> I could run a 12 guage wire from a cold water pipe.
[00:17:39] <jmkasunich> _none_ of your outlets have ground prongs?
[00:17:45] <davidf> Nope.
[00:18:01] <davidf> Very common in 1960-1970 US wiring.
[00:18:06] <jmkasunich> what do you do for the PC and other things with 3 wire cords? lots of cheater plugs?
[00:18:14] <davidf> yep.
[00:18:21] <cradek> you just need one cheater plug at the beginning of the long chain of power strips
[00:18:21] <alex_joni> davidf: what floor are you on?
[00:18:33] <jmkasunich> yeah, I have knob-and-tube here, but I've gradually replaced most of the 2 prong plugs
[00:18:38] <davidf> HA. How'd you know that cradek ?
[00:18:42] <cradek> experience
[00:18:46] <alex_joni> heh
[00:18:50] <davidf> hee
[00:19:07] <jmkasunich> tie the earth pins to the PC case
[00:19:26] <jmkasunich> and then tie the whole mess to the water pipe
[00:19:43] <alex_joni> I'd suggest some galvanized steel earthings around the house
[00:19:53] <alex_joni> 1.5m long, 2m apart (about 5-6 pieces)
[00:19:59] <jmkasunich> the norm here is a copper water pipe
[00:20:00] <davidf> good idea. Y'know, thats a thought Ive had for awhile. Just didn't want it to be true.
[00:20:05] <alex_joni> or water pipe
[00:20:41] <jmkasunich> in many cases, its not so critical that it be connected to "ground" as in dirt
[00:20:53] <jmkasunich> more important that all parts of the system be connected together
[00:20:55] <alex_joni> except for your health
[00:21:04] <davidf> right.
[00:21:17] <alex_joni> or you have a nice steel floor tied to the same mess
[00:21:28] <davidf> Only outlet at the bench is a lamp socket. :)
[00:21:34] <alex_joni> live in a nice faraday cage :D
[00:21:36] <davidf> crazy.
[00:21:54] <cradek> are you guys back to doubting the pc's output?
[00:22:12] <davidf> no. not at all on my part.
[00:22:14] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/config/ (4 files): moved config related lyx and images over, older commit history can be found in the documents module
[00:22:17] <alex_joni> we're doubting earthing issues
[00:22:20] <jmkasunich> ran for quite a while at 2.77 and then 3.3 KHz on a 555
[00:22:40] <davidf> I think It's in my interface or cross talk in the PC par port cable.
[00:22:40] <alex_joni> might be or might not be related
[00:23:14] <cradek> I guess eliminating one thing at a time that might be it is one way to eventually solve the problem
[00:23:43] <davidf> There is a very high frequency signal I cant identify.
[00:23:44] <jmkasunich> intermittents are the worst though, because you change something and it takes such a long time to see if it had any effect
[00:24:03] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/install/installing_emc2.lyx: moved install related lyx and images over, older commit history can be found in the documents module
[00:24:16] <davidf> It looks like a periodic ringing. Not real big though. It looks like computer noise.
[00:24:32] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/Master_HAL.lyx: moved Master_HAL over, older commit history can be found in the documents module
[00:24:39] <davidf> jmkasunich, you sure got that right.
[00:24:56] <cradek> I fought this on my mill for a long time too
[00:24:59] <davidf> Hurry up and wait, then scramble for 2 seconds, then wait.
[00:25:03] <jmkasunich> only thing worse is a destructive intermittent
[00:25:08] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/Master_User.lyx: minor location update
[00:25:10] <davidf> ha
[00:25:17] <cradek> I was able to reproduce it with a program like g0x0 x6 x0 x6 ...
[00:25:25] <davidf> I might become one of those.
[00:25:26] <jmkasunich> wait for it to happen, then rebuild the smoking ruins before you can try again
[00:25:28] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: had a very "nice" problem once
[00:25:45] <cradek> then while it was going back and forth at full speed, I knew it would stall on any glitch
[00:26:03] <cradek> that's how I eventually found the cpu fan thing
[00:26:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: one of the AC motors had a position in which the rotor would touch a winding
[00:26:20] <jmkasunich> oh, fun
[00:26:36] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: and the servos should have been short-circuit proof
[00:26:45] <alex_joni> well.. _should_
[00:26:57] <alex_joni> 2 of them made .. poof
[00:27:55] <davidf> This motor has been happy for about 25 minutes.
[00:28:09] <davidf> I'll let it go on though.
[00:28:11] <alex_joni> that's not a nice thing at 3-4k$/servo
[00:28:25] <alex_joni> davidf: next try to feed it through your board
[00:28:28] <davidf> It's nice to see something work at least.
[00:28:29] <cradek> davidf: are you using all the same cabling?
[00:28:41] <alex_joni> cradek: I think directly to the drive
[00:28:43] <davidf> eh?
[00:28:46] <cradek> ah
[00:29:04] <alex_joni> davidf: the 555 output.. does it go through the same path as the PC output?
[00:29:19] <davidf> yes. I plugged the 555 output into the drive. But that's the next logical step.
[00:29:20] <alex_joni> or did you connect it directly to the drive for testing?
[00:29:21] <cradek> I mean unplug the parport cable from the back of the PC and hook it up right there
[00:29:25] <alex_joni> right
[00:29:45] <davidf> Oh. Through the cable?
[00:29:45] <alex_joni> cradek: can you look at something when you have 10 spare minutes?
[00:29:52] <alex_joni> davidf: all the way
[00:29:53] <cradek> sure
[00:30:03] <alex_joni> cradek: halui (estop_reset pin)
[00:30:19] <cradek> oh no
[00:30:23] <alex_joni> for gawd knows what reason, I need to push it twice on startup for it to work
[00:30:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is really puzzled
[00:30:38] <cradek> ah ok
[00:31:25] <davidf> Think I have a better idea.
[00:31:40] <cradek> wow look at all these docs on my cvs up
[00:32:09] <alex_joni> quite a few eh?
[00:32:10] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: added tool relevant information (tool nr. and length_offset)
[00:32:15] <cradek> looks like a nice structure
[00:32:18] <cradek> good work guys
[00:32:55] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: halui question for you..
[00:33:09] <jmkasunich> for moi?
[00:33:24] <alex_joni> I have feed_override as a jogwheel done (and it seems to work Ok)
[00:33:35] <alex_joni> would it be interesting to have preset bits?
[00:33:37] <cradek> alex_joni: does any message get sent the first push?
[00:33:48] <alex_joni> cradek: not that I can tell
[00:34:03] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: halui.fo.0 .10 .20 etc ?
[00:34:14] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: you mean press a button (set a bit pin true) and the feedrate goes to some specific value?
[00:34:20] <alex_joni> right
[00:34:26] <alex_joni> feed_override
[00:34:33] <jmkasunich> right
[00:34:48] <jmkasunich> I don't like the idea of 0, .1, .2, etc
[00:35:00] <jmkasunich> too many pins, that few people will actually use
[00:35:06] <alex_joni> on my robots pendant there are 3 presets for FO 5%, 50%, 100%
[00:35:22] <alex_joni> I wanted to add up/down
[00:35:23] <jmkasunich> how about 2 or 3 pins, with associated params
[00:35:30] <cradek> all these ifs in check_hal_changes are wrong since they read the pin more than once, expecting it to not have changed
[00:35:34] <alex_joni> that works too
[00:35:45] <alex_joni> cradek: oh-oh
[00:35:53] <jmkasunich> read once, copy to local
[00:36:37] <cradek> I doubt that's the problem with estop_reset, but it's definitely wrong
[00:36:55] <alex_joni> this is going to be a pita to change
[00:37:04] <cradek> use the preprocessor luke
[00:37:15] <cradek> or make a function?
[00:37:19] <alex_joni> if you know how.. I never tried
[00:37:26] <jmkasunich> just declare another struct
[00:37:38] <jmkasunich> you have old_halui_data, make new_halui_data
[00:37:47] <alex_joni> I wondered about something smarter.. but gave up because it complicates things
[00:38:01] <jmkasunich> new_halui_date.foo = *(halui_data->foo);
[00:38:02] <alex_joni> register the pin, along with the function to call on changes
[00:38:13] <cradek> ack, it reads them three times
[00:38:17] <cradek> maybe it IS your bug
[00:38:25] <alex_joni> it might be
[00:38:29] <cradek> because the sendTheMessage() might take a while
[00:38:38] <jmkasunich> if ( new_halui_data.foo != old_halui_data.foo ) { do stuff }
[00:38:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni changes for estop_reset to see
[00:39:11] <cradek> your new feed override is right
[00:40:25] <alex_joni> still the same behaviour
[00:40:34] <cradek> darn
[00:40:35] <alex_joni> but I agree it's wrong to read it more than once
[00:40:41] <cradek> now I have to actually look for the bug
[00:40:48] <alex_joni> :/
[00:42:06] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: is there a sample config that shows the problem?
[00:42:16] <alex_joni> halui_halvcp
[00:42:41] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: but it's overkill for 3 people to hunt it
[00:42:50] <alex_joni> it's not really a major thing
[00:43:20] <jmkasunich> theres no such thing as overkill, theres only "open fire" and "I need to reload"
[00:43:29] <cradek> haha
[00:43:30] <jmkasunich> (random quote that popped into my mind)
[00:44:30] <alex_joni> bit changed 1
[00:44:30] <alex_joni> bit changed 0
[00:44:30] <alex_joni> bit changed 1
[00:44:30] <alex_joni> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_STATE -- (+505,+16, +2, +2,)
[00:44:30] <alex_joni> bit changed 0
[00:44:42] <alex_joni> only the second time something gets sent
[00:44:48] <alex_joni> * alex_joni suspects a NML problem
[00:44:55] <jmkasunich> but both times it gets detected?
[00:44:58] <alex_joni> right
[00:45:03] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich stops looking
[00:45:06] <alex_joni> and sendFOO gets called
[00:45:13] <jmkasunich> you said the magic three letters
[00:45:22] <jmkasunich> N
[00:45:24] <cradek> you're sure sendFOO is called?
[00:45:24] <jmkasunich> M
[00:45:25] <jmkasunich> L
[00:45:28] <alex_joni> * alex_joni makes a mental note
[00:45:39] <alex_joni> cradek: 87.3% sure
[00:45:42] <alex_joni> makeing sure now :D
[00:45:45] <jmkasunich> put a printf in sendFoo
[00:45:49] <cradek> try to get up to at least 92.5%
[00:47:10] <cradek> wonder if it's a first-message problem
[00:47:24] <alex_joni> my hunch is that the NML comm is not up yet
[00:47:31] <alex_joni> and the message gets dropped
[00:47:56] <alex_joni> I had this: I ran it, then configured the debug level from tkemc (which took me a few seconds), after that it worked on the first push
[00:48:37] <cradek> or it could be a serial number problem
[00:48:39] <alex_joni> yup, it gets called alright (100% sure)
[00:48:51] <cradek> I don't understand the SN handling with saveEmcCommandSerialNumber
[00:48:51] <jmkasunich> I waited 15 seconds, still failed
[00:48:55] <jmkasunich> waiting 60 seconds now
[00:49:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: do some other things which cause NML messages
[00:49:12] <jmkasunich> but I don't suspect its time related
[00:49:16] <alex_joni> like set_debug from tkemc
[00:49:36] <jmkasunich> but I don't suspect its time related
[00:49:40] <jmkasunich> oops
[00:50:04] <cradek> is 505 or 16 the serial number in that debug output above?
[00:50:07] <jmkasunich> attempting a mist on makes it work
[00:50:40] <alex_joni> I think 505 is serial
[00:50:44] <alex_joni> and +16 is command
[00:51:08] <cradek> isn't 505 bogus? from my reading of the halui code it should be 1
[00:51:23] <cradek> what's the SN when you send another message (mist on) first?
[00:51:43] <jmkasunich> dunno, I had debug off
[00:51:55] <alex_joni> cradek: the SN is actually the 3rd field
[00:51:57] <jmkasunich> however, I think the SN is actually the 3rd number
[00:51:59] <alex_joni> and that's the problem
[00:51:59] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[00:52:01] <cradek> ah
[00:52:05] <cradek> what's the problem?
[00:52:13] <alex_joni> it starts with 1, but 1 has already been sent by emc starting up
[00:52:14] <jmkasunich> I hit estop a bunch of times and that one incremented
[00:52:23] <alex_joni> so it gets dropped, then halui increases it
[00:52:30] <alex_joni> the next one (2) will be respected
[00:52:52] <jmkasunich> hmm
[00:52:58] <cradek> you have to get the last-used SN from the stat buffer don't you
[00:53:05] <alex_joni> probably so
[00:53:13] <jmkasunich> when I attempt mist on (with machine off) the debug output doesn't show a mist message
[00:53:21] <cradek> without locking that's problematic though
[00:53:30] <jmkasunich> I was about to say that
[00:53:54] <cradek> I'd ask alex, I think he knows how this stuff is supposed to work
[00:53:56] <jmkasunich> its not the serial number
[00:54:34] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_TERM_COND -- (+222,+24, +0, +2,0.000000,)
[00:54:34] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_ORIGIN -- (+224,+60, +0,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,)
[00:54:34] <jmkasunich> emcStatus->motion.traj.mode = 1
[00:54:34] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TRAJ_SET_SCALE -- (+209,+20, +1,1.000000,)
[00:54:34] <jmkasunich> command (EMC_COOLANT_MIST_ON) cannot be executed until the machine is out of E-stop and turned on
[00:54:35] <jmkasunich> Issuing EMC_TASK_SET_STATE -- (+505,+16, +1, +2,)
[00:54:39] <jmkasunich> that worked fine
[00:54:48] <alex_joni> yeah, because it gets rejected
[00:54:52] <alex_joni> the mist on
[00:55:02] <jmkasunich> even tho the message from halui and the set scale message both have the same SN
[00:55:03] <alex_joni> in that case it doesn't get incremented I guess
[00:56:55] <jmkasunich> the "issuing EMC blah blah" debug messages... do those show GUI->task commands
[00:57:00] <jmkasunich> it seems not
[00:58:18] <jmkasunich> hmm, another tidbit of info
[00:58:32] <jmkasunich> hitting the tkemc mist on button results in an error message
[00:58:42] <jmkasunich> hitting the halui mist on button doesn't, the first time
[00:58:45] <jmkasunich> but it does the second time
[00:58:51] <alex_joni> oh
[00:58:54] <jmkasunich> so its not unique to estop
[01:00:02] <alex_joni> I found a hack to make it work
[01:00:06] <alex_joni> but I don't understand it
[01:00:11] <alex_joni> :/(
[01:00:25] <jmkasunich> that sounds like me and all of NML ;-/
[01:01:08] <alex_joni> although I think I do..
[01:01:20] <alex_joni> it's a locking problem
[01:01:36] <alex_joni> on the serial number
[01:01:55] <alex_joni> the emcCommandSerialNumber comes from emcStatus->echo_serial_number
[01:02:08] <alex_joni> and I suspect that gets changed after halui took it's value
[01:02:47] <alex_joni> right, because halui runs before task
[01:03:00] <alex_joni> and before io
[01:03:05] <cradek> I notice we're registering our cmd channel as "xemc" - I bet all the guis use that
[01:03:13] <alex_joni> right
[01:03:14] <cradek> can we make it so we don't share serial numbers?
[01:03:31] <alex_joni> don't think so
[01:03:37] <alex_joni> no
[01:03:47] <cradek> ok
[01:03:53] <cradek> I sure don't know how this works
[01:04:04] <alex_joni> it's still the same channel, and we need the same serial numbers for it to work
[01:04:10] <cradek> ok
[01:04:45] <jmkasunich> shouldn't halui and tkemc be using different channels to talk to task?
[01:05:01] <alex_joni> no, they are equals
[01:05:08] <jmkasunich> in general, if you have N guis running, shouldn't there be N channels for task<->gui comms?
[01:05:17] <alex_joni> no, only one
[01:05:24] <alex_joni> 1 reader, n-1 writers
[01:05:27] <alex_joni> like hal pins :D
[01:05:36] <alex_joni> err..the other way around
[01:05:39] <jmkasunich> not like hal pins ;-)
[01:05:47] <jmkasunich> hal pins have only one writer
[01:05:58] <jmkasunich> if you have 2 guis, then you have 2 writers
[01:06:47] <alex_joni> ok, found a hack I understand :D
[01:07:38] <davidf> Geez guys.
[01:07:44] <alex_joni> davidf: ?
[01:07:47] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: get serial number after update, this way we don't get out of synch() for example if someone else starts up after we do(hint: task)
[01:08:16] <alex_joni> jmkasunich, cradek: can you test if that cures it?
[01:08:25] <davidf> Think I found a bone head error on my part.
[01:08:29] <jmkasunich> updating now
[01:08:32] <alex_joni> davidf: which one?
[01:08:42] <davidf> Just checked the specs for the drive's inputs.
[01:08:56] <davidf> 3.5 V minimum for logic high.
[01:09:19] <davidf> I'm driving it with 7406 invertor gates.
[01:09:39] <davidf> 2.9 volt high on the one I just tested.
[01:09:46] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: works fine now
[01:09:47] <cradek> ??
[01:09:57] <cradek> how can you get such a low high out of ttl?
[01:10:08] <alex_joni> might be LS
[01:10:16] <alex_joni> or worse
[01:10:24] <jmkasunich> or might literally be a 7406 original ttl
[01:10:27] <davidf> So the Parkers are being very nice to me but when any dip in PS due to loading etc occurs, Bam.
[01:10:52] <alex_joni> davidf: sounds like a reason
[01:10:55] <jmkasunich> lemme guess, the LED in the parker optocoupler is on when the input is high?
[01:11:22] <cradek> is 7406 OC??
[01:11:25] <davidf> probably. I'll check that in a sec.
[01:11:50] <davidf> And jmkasunich , you guessed it.
[01:11:57] <davidf> Anchient.
[01:12:10] <davidf> God, my spelling.
[01:12:13] <cradek> 7406 is OC, you can't drive an opto with it
[01:12:24] <alex_joni> davidf: couldn't care less about spelling at this hour
[01:12:27] <jmkasunich> well apparently you can some of the time
[01:12:32] <davidf> 7404.
[01:12:34] <davidf> Sorry.
[01:12:46] <cradek> ohh
[01:12:52] <cradek> big difference :-)
[01:13:01] <davidf> yes of course.
[01:13:01] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: quick question about canonical enc. interf
[01:13:07] <jmkasunich> still, if its 7404, not 74LS04 or HC04 or etc...
[01:13:11] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: where's the docs?
[01:13:14] <jmkasunich> it has pretty weak sourcing ability
[01:13:21] <davidf> So, I'll change that & I'll bet that'l do it.
[01:13:28] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: I'm not sure there are any
[01:13:42] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I think you said you made some ?
[01:13:50] <alex_joni> or should I just look at the homing stuff?
[01:13:57] <davidf> I have the docs. Texas Inntruments TTL manual.
[01:13:57] <alex_joni> err.. encoder module?
[01:14:00] <jmkasunich> all the canonical interfaces are in docs/src/hal/general_ref.lyx
[01:14:10] <jmkasunich> did you look there?
[01:14:22] <alex_joni> of course not
[01:15:04] <alex_joni> so index-enable is the pin (bidirectional)
[01:15:17] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks
[01:15:22] <jmkasunich> but I think so
[01:15:38] <alex_joni> ok, was jsut wondering.. don't bother too much
[01:15:43] <alex_joni> won't start with this tonight
[01:15:49] <alex_joni> screen is half blurry
[01:15:58] <alex_joni> 04:30am here
[01:16:10] <cradek> goodnight alex_joni
[01:16:13] <davidf> Anyway, thanks guys. I'll be surprised if that doesn't fix it.
[01:16:14] <jmkasunich> go to sleep you lunatic!
[01:16:26] <alex_joni> hang on.. wanted to finish something..
[01:16:35] <alex_joni> can't remember what though :D
[01:16:38] <jmkasunich> it did fix it (you're talking about the estop problem?)
[01:16:39] <cradek> heh
[01:16:49] <davidf> You only become a lunatic if you SLEEP in moonlight.
[01:16:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: davidf was talking about his problem
[01:17:05] <alex_joni> * alex_joni remembered it
[01:17:11] <alex_joni> SF release announce
[01:17:13] <jmkasunich> duh
[01:18:00] <alex_joni> and the source up there
[01:18:57] <davidf> I'm pretty sure that's it. Thanks. Didn't mean to barge in. I see you guys are deep into it.
[01:19:11] <jmkasunich> quite all right
[01:19:20] <jmkasunich> I'm glad to hear you found something
[01:19:21] <alex_joni> indeed.. it was a nice exercise :D
[01:19:21] <davidf> I'll let you know how it goes aftyer a rework.
[01:19:21] <cradek> you must let us know if that fixes it
[01:19:45] <davidf> Sure will. You guys are the best.
[01:20:05] <alex_joni> oh, fsck it: Your SourceForge.net password has expired - You must now choose a new password before logging into the site.
[01:20:17] <davidf> Anyone anywhere it's after 4 am, go to bed. Brush your teeth.
[01:20:37] <davidf> G'nite. :)
[01:20:49] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: sourceforge will still be there tomorrow
[01:20:51] <alex_joni> cradek: seems they did have problems with people breaking in
[01:21:01] <cradek> did they finally admit it?
[01:21:06] <alex_joni> not directly
[01:21:13] <alex_joni> but they are making us change it
[01:21:17] <jmkasunich> started expiring passwords
[01:21:28] <jmkasunich> they never did that before, I had the same pw for a couple years
[01:22:01] <alex_joni> same here
[01:22:07] <cradek> mine's not expired
[01:22:58] <cradek> but something must be wrong because even though I turned on "accept donations" I haven't ever received any
[01:23:27] <cradek> so it, um, must not work
[01:23:31] <cradek> :-P
[01:23:47] <alex_joni> lol
[01:23:48] <jmkasunich> gotta turn on "earn donations"
[01:23:51] <alex_joni> try entering admin
[01:23:58] <alex_joni> or any safety relevant parts
[01:24:08] <alex_joni> and you'll get the password expired stuff
[01:26:59] <Jymmm> Bad news: engine light came on.
[01:27:08] <anonimasu> ?
[01:27:16] <alex_joni> service?
[01:27:25] <Jymmm> Good News: Should be covered under exteneded emissions warranty
[01:27:31] <cradek> Jymmm: autozone will read the codes for free
[01:27:47] <cradek> did you check the gas cap?
[01:27:52] <cradek> (seriously)
[01:28:12] <Jymmm> cradek: good to know. My cousin works for Honda, and his friend has a domestic scanner.
[01:28:19] <cradek> ah
[01:28:26] <Jymmm> It was a EGR thingy, and Ford has a TSB on it too.
[01:28:41] <Jymmm> bastidges
[01:29:02] <cradek> their DFPE sensors were crap for a while and all died
[01:29:06] <cradek> DPFE?
[01:29:35] <alex_joni> cradek: when was 2.0.3 released?
[01:29:38] <Jymmm> He has access to the full TSB's. Looks like it's the EGR pressure sensor, not the EGR value itself.
[01:29:38] <cradek> egr flow sensor
[01:29:49] <alex_joni> 04 aug?
[01:29:51] <cradek> yep the valves are fine, but the flow sensors quit
[01:29:59] <cradek> alex_joni: check VERSION's cvs
[01:30:11] <anonimasu> hm, egr's a great way to wear down engines fast :)
[01:30:24] <anonimasu> were before atleast ;)
[01:31:16] <Jymmm> I have a Cruise control recall too; they need to install a fusable link to fix it. Seems that even when engine off was causing engine fires =)
[01:31:48] <cradek> yep the switch on the brake pedal
[01:31:52] <cradek> late 90s bronco?
[01:31:58] <Jymmm> 2001 Expedition
[01:32:07] <cradek> same idea
[01:32:19] <Jymmm> Broncos stopped being made in 1984 I thought.
[01:32:25] <Jymmm> maybe 1994
[01:32:27] <cradek> no, we have a 96
[01:32:38] <cradek> that might have been the end though
[01:33:04] <Jymmm> ah the last rolled off in 1996
[01:33:18] <Jymmm> From its introduction in 1965 until its untimely death in 1996
[01:33:51] <Jymmm> I always wanted a 1960's Bronco
[01:33:53] <cradek> alex_joni: looks like 2.0.3 was on 8/2
[01:34:09] <alex_joni> 03 says cvs ?
[01:34:13] <cradek> Jymmm: they're cool, but the old 3 speeds suck for anything but city driving
[01:34:26] <cradek> alex_joni: early in the day UTC = evening here
[01:34:32] <cradek> doesn't matter if it's off by a day
[01:35:24] <cradek> Jymmm: they just don't cut it anymore with our 75mph highways
[01:35:36] <Jymmm> cradek lol, no doubt
[01:36:00] <Jymmm> I'd rather have auto anyway.
[01:36:08] <cradek> you can gear it up, but god help you if you stop pointing up a hill
[01:36:27] <Jymmm> drop a tranny from an old Torino in it =)
[01:36:36] <cradek> auto is the same three gears, same problem on the highway
[01:36:51] <alex_joni> https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=598738
[01:37:17] <cradek> cool alex_joni
[01:37:31] <jmkasunich> why does it say "2.0.1 holds bugfixes over 2.0.0"?
[01:37:52] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: ?
[01:37:52] <cradek> yeah I think this is an old message
[01:38:05] <cradek> something's not right
[01:38:07] <jmkasunich> first line of text under summary
[01:38:09] <alex_joni> did I write that?
[01:38:11] <alex_joni> argh
[01:38:54] <jmkasunich> go to sleep
[01:38:58] <jmkasunich> I'll see if I can edit it
[01:39:33] <alex_joni> better now?
[01:39:38] <alex_joni> I edited it already
[01:39:39] <jmkasunich> yes
[01:40:03] <alex_joni> one more for www.linuxcnc.org
[01:45:00] <Jymmm> cradek: Ah, didn't realize that. I'd only go "off road" when I had my 1984 SWD F150 and 31 x 10.5 tires on the back end =)
[01:45:09] <Jymmm> 2WD
[01:45:21] <Jymmm> Great is the sand
[01:46:19] <cradek> never really got into that, I drive on pavement most of the time
[01:46:47] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=6
[01:46:49] <Jymmm> I used to live i the High Desert (Victorville area), sand everywhere
[01:47:34] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: well done... now GO TO SLEEP!
[01:47:34] <Jymmm> hell, some streets were just dirt. It's finny to be driving down a dirt road and seeing a metal/reflective corner street sign.
[01:47:44] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: still have one more :D
[01:47:58] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: LOTS of them :D
[01:48:34] <Jymmm> alex_joni jmkasunich is just jealous and will finish the rest of them before you wake up in the morning.
[01:48:45] <jmkasunich> not
[01:48:54] <jmkasunich> I have no idea what he's doing right now
[01:49:18] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I would be happy if someone else did the announcements.. :)
[01:49:40] <cradek> I changed the irc topic...
[01:49:48] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Ok... jmkasunich is being a lazy bastard sitting around and enjoying the weekend with a cooler full of ice cold beer and will delete all the work you've doen to date by the time you wake up in the morning.
[01:49:49] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: a german guy (FritzX) asked me to send a report to http://pro-linux.de/ when it's released
[01:50:04] <alex_joni> Jymmm: not scared with CVS in place :)
[01:50:23] <Jymmm> alex_joni I think you put too much confidense into SF
[01:50:34] <alex_joni> CVS is not at SF's anymore
[01:50:43] <Jymmm> backups?
[01:50:49] <Jymmm> automatic backups?
[01:50:58] <Jymmm> automatic offsite backups?
[01:51:10] <cradek> all of the above
[01:51:17] <Jymmm> cool beans
[01:51:25] <cradek> I check them every day
[01:51:37] <jmkasunich> you check on cvs2?
[01:51:48] <cradek> I check the rsync
[01:51:53] <Jymmm> as many changes as you guys make, every 8 hours seems right.
[01:52:17] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: don't forget, the changes also exist on the PC of the guy who made them
[01:52:33] <jmkasunich> and on the PCs of everyone who has an up-to-date checkout
[01:52:49] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: except the rcs stuff
[01:52:54] <jmkasunich> and on the 5 compile farm PCs (which do a checkout within 5 minutes of any commit)
[01:52:56] <jmkasunich> true
[01:52:58] <Jymmm> jmkasunich But I consider that "oh gawd lets hope everyone has everything they've ever done" sorta thing.
[01:53:15] <cradek> I write everything to tape once in a while
[01:53:27] <jmkasunich> but in terms of actually losing the source code, a crapload of things would have to go wrong
[01:53:37] <alex_joni> quite a crapload
[01:53:37] <cradek> yeah, all at once
[01:53:57] <cradek> in many different cities
[01:54:01] <Jymmm> Hey, from being SysAdmin at a BioMed company, I take the CYA approach.
[01:54:10] <Jymmm> to a whole new level
[01:54:40] <cradek> CYA = if something is big enough to take out the safe deposit boxes, it'll take me too, eliminating any worry
[01:54:57] <jmkasunich> lol
[01:55:30] <Jymmm> cradek in your home or at the bank?
[01:55:47] <jmkasunich> from the lyx manual table of contents: "How do I kill widows and orphans"
[01:56:18] <cradek> the bank
[01:56:59] <Jymmm> cradek: ah, ok. safe deposit boxes not at the bank are only good for guns
[02:00:52] <Jymmm> or maybe, hotels. but that's about it.
[02:04:09] <SWPadnos> hi folks
[02:04:14] <jmkasunich> hi
[02:04:23] <Jymmm> hey SWPadnos!
[02:04:28] <SWPadnos> hi Jymmm
[02:04:38] <SWPadnos> I'm back near your neck of the woods
[02:04:44] <SWPadnos> (at east, nearer than usual)
[02:04:49] <Jymmm> SWPadnos Yeah? where?
[02:04:51] <SWPadnos> err least, not east
[02:04:53] <SWPadnos> LA
[02:04:59] <Jymmm> ah Burbank?
[02:05:07] <SWPadnos> no, LA :)
[02:05:12] <SWPadnos> near LAX, actually
[02:05:20] <Jymmm> SWPadnos Lucky you (NOT)
[02:05:24] <SWPadnos> Culver City, I guess
[02:05:28] <SWPadnos> yeah - NOT!
[02:05:30] <Jymmm> smog must bee REALLY bad there today
[02:05:42] <SWPadnos> it was very noticeable from the plane
[02:06:09] <SWPadnos> I'm a hotel room with AC though, so it's not as bad in here (plus it's Saturday)
[02:07:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[02:07:03] <alex_joni> good night all
[02:07:10] <SWPadnos> see you alex
[02:07:14] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[02:07:22] <SWPadnos> (one of these days)\
[02:07:52] <alex_joni> sun's coming up.. gotta hide
[02:08:04] <SWPadnos> hasn't even considered going down here
[02:42:01] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_away
[04:35:32] <Gene_> Anybody awake?
[04:36:15] <Gene_> Didn't think so.
[04:37:15] <Gene_> FWIW, I had adept upgrade the reguler install of emc, which currently logs in as EMC-2.0.3, but it won't run.
[04:38:09] <Gene_> To be fair, I had not tried the previously installed version, so the config file error that killed it may have previously existsed.
[04:38:27] <danfalck> Gene_, I'm having problems with something, so I'm going to try to do a complete removal and reinstall with Synaptic
[04:38:38] <danfalck> and I will let you know how it goes
[04:39:27] <Gene_> Well, I was just checking in, and will be headed back to bed in 5 or so.
[04:39:41] <danfalck> ok
[04:40:37] <Gene_> ATM I'm ssh -X'd into it, and made sure that HEAD from thursday still ran ok, and it did.
[04:41:10] <Gene_> Typical geek, gets up to pee and has to check his email and things before going back to bed :)
[04:41:35] <Gene_> The fact that this geek is 71 hasn't a heck of a lot to do with it.
[04:41:49] <Gene_> Other than getting up more often.
[04:42:52] <Gene_> The machines box will have a history, so I'm outta here for a while.
[08:50:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[09:10:26] <anonimasu> hm. the current draw went down to 5a
[09:14:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> when lowering the voltage?
[09:14:26] <anonimasu> nope
[09:14:30] <anonimasu> when lowering the preload
[09:14:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[09:14:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> right
[09:14:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> still 72V?
[09:14:44] <anonimasu> no at 24v
[09:14:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[09:14:52] <anonimasu> not that bad..
[09:14:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 120W
[09:15:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> not that bad no
[09:15:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what type of speed?
[09:15:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 100ipm?
[09:15:14] <anonimasu> nah
[09:15:14] <anonimasu> slow
[09:15:29] <anonimasu> I'd think about 2000
[09:15:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 1000mm/min slow?
[09:15:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[09:15:37] <anonimasu> 4m min..
[09:15:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's fast enough for most things though
[09:16:01] <anonimasu> yeah, but i'll be milling alu later
[09:16:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[09:16:07] <anonimasu> but I'm replacing the servos perhaps..
[09:16:11] <anonimasu> I'll see about it
[09:16:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[09:16:18] <anonimasu> I could use the larger galilmc motors
[09:16:44] <anonimasu> no biggie :)
[09:16:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[09:16:56] <anonimasu> the current draw goes +2a when pushing people too
[09:17:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[09:17:24] <anonimasu> not that bad :)
[09:19:59] <anonimasu> made me happy
[09:20:20] <anonimasu> but I still havent preloaded the table at all, but I doubt that'll be really nescessary it's very tight anyway
[09:20:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> preloaded with the seconds ballscrew?
[09:20:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or the way?
[09:20:57] <anonimasu> preloaded with the \
[09:20:59] <anonimasu> the ways
[09:21:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[09:21:15] <anonimasu> well I'll see about it later
[09:21:30] <anonimasu> worst thing that happens is that I need better servos(that's pretty bad)
[09:22:46] <anonimasu> going to make the Y axis motor mount today
[09:23:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah, those other servsos you had wern't cheap :(
[09:23:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[09:46:14] <Jymmm> http://www2.rhino3d.com/resources/display.asp?language=&listing=412
[09:46:20] <Jymmm> FreeMill ???
[10:07:59] <alex_joni> morning all
[10:08:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'lo
[10:09:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that actually looks like it may be reasonably good
[10:10:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> full 3d output in any case (not only 2.5d)
[10:12:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Products/images/FreeMillBlown.jpg
[10:13:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> roughing operation seems to be somewhat crude though
[10:13:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> but for that price, not bad
[10:15:22] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: anything else you'd like to see in halui?
[10:15:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm.
[10:16:08] <alex_joni> halui.hmm ?
[10:16:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the only thing that I can think of right now is an override pin for CSS/RPM
[10:16:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> to adjust CSS/RPM speed on the fly with a jogwheel/buttons
[10:16:57] <alex_joni> that needs support by the rest of em cfirst
[10:17:04] <alex_joni> of emc first
[10:17:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[10:17:17] <Bo^Dick> is there an algorithm for milling 2 or 3-dimentional objects?
[10:17:25] <alex_joni> I'd like to have a spindlespeed_override like feed_override
[10:17:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: exactly
[10:17:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: but maybe add for spindle override a min_speed
[10:17:57] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: that should work for mills & lathes
[10:18:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> typically you can't lower that speed under a certain amount (typically 50%)
[10:18:32] <alex_joni> that might be a ini reference
[10:18:48] <Bo^Dick> i'm assuming the machine starts with a big tool and then replaces that with half the size and so on
[10:18:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how do you mean?
[10:19:15] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: usually you tell it what toolyou have available
[10:19:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Bo^Dick: do you mean, an algorithm in EMC?
[10:19:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: the min and max are relative to programmed speed
[10:19:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> assuming you don't exceed the machine max rpm
[10:19:51] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: in percent
[10:19:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: ok
[10:20:00] <Bo^Dick> i'm talking about http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Products/images/FreeMillBlown.jpg
[10:20:02] <alex_joni> just like FO
[10:20:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[10:20:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, if freemill has that?
[10:21:02] <Bo^Dick> can't see an alternative way of making high-resolution 3D objects
[10:21:06] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: usually you tell the CAM what tools you have available, and it generates the path based on that
[10:22:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: that and CSS support would be really good to have
[10:22:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> though CSS is not halui
[10:22:49] <alex_joni> right
[10:22:56] <alex_joni> both are first emc2 requests
[10:23:02] <alex_joni> the halui details are minor
[10:23:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[10:23:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> css seems to be more low-level though
[10:24:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as it's adding new features rather than modifying them
[10:31:06] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc: added emcrsh by Eric H. Johnson (a telnet server for remote control of emc2)
[10:31:50] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/Submakefile: added emcrsh to the buildprocess
[10:33:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how much of EMC1 was reused in EMC2?
[10:33:27] <alex_joni> various parts
[10:33:32] <alex_joni> can't say for real
[10:33:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[10:33:44] <alex_joni> maybe 50% or more
[10:34:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> quite a bit then
[10:34:10] <alex_joni> but 80% was touched / modified
[10:34:16] <alex_joni> of those parts
[10:34:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[10:35:04] <anonimasu> Bo^Dick: cant you specify stepover in that cam program?
[10:35:39] <alex_joni> bbl, going to lunch
[10:39:53] <CIA-12> 03compile-farm 07BDI-2.18 (2.2.18-rtl3.0) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot2_log.txt
[10:41:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :(
[10:48:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I want physical C, Y, and B axis... :D
[10:48:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and a hidden toolchanger
[10:48:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> like here: http://www.javelin-tech.com/cam/products/movie/Twin_Turret_Turning_with_CY&BAxis_Milling.EXE
[10:49:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the toolchange is what I found most amazing
[10:50:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> suddenly my lathe doesn't look as cool anymore ;)
[10:50:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then again, had I had as much $ as that lathe/mill costs, that wouldn't be that bad either
[10:50:54] <anonimasu> lol
[12:13:48] <CIA-12> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10axis/scripts/axis.py:
[12:13:48] <CIA-12> fixes bug 'invalid number format' when running nist-lathe from cvs head, F1 F2
[12:13:48] <CIA-12> x End and then type 1
[12:32:42] <CIA-12> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/emcrsh.cc: fix compiles on farm slot 2
[12:47:15] <CIA-12> 03compile-farm 07BDI-2.18 (2.2.18-rtl3.0) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[12:59:08] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[13:39:57] <robin_sz> how is that German name spely .. "yocken" ... Joachan?
[13:40:08] <robin_sz> Jocken?
[13:41:03] <robin_sz> Jochen?
[15:11:52] <skunkworks> hey ray - how is it going?
[15:15:16] <Gene_> Morning guys (Its still morning here for another half an hour anyway)
[15:16:01] <Gene_> Is it safe to grab a cvs up -dP on HEAD in about an hour?
[15:16:20] <cradek> it's working as far as I know
[15:16:50] <Gene_> Good, I'll go it it asap, thanks
[15:19:35] <Gene_> Thats running, do I need a bew axis 'latest' too?
[15:20:11] <Gene_> darned fingers, don't type what I think...
[15:20:20] <Gene_> s/bew/new
[15:20:24] <cradek> there was a small axis bugfix earlier today in touch-off
[15:20:48] <Gene_> When does that actually become part of emc2?
[15:21:04] <Gene_> so theres only one checkout needed.
[15:21:19] <cradek> whenever/if jeff and I decide to do that
[15:21:41] <alex_joni> Gene_: if you have the CVS under emc2/src/axis you only need to type cvs up once
[15:21:45] <Gene_> it seems mature enough to qualify to me :)
[15:22:01] <alex_joni> it's not a matter of mature
[15:22:21] <Gene_> I don't, its in /home/gene/emc2.head
[15:23:16] <alex_joni> I meant the axis CVS under the emc2 CVS
[15:24:15] <Gene_> ok, if I cd to src, can I do a fresh login and checkout? Need the cli to do that obviously.
[15:24:40] <alex_joni> right
[15:24:49] <alex_joni> or move the checkout folder around
[15:25:21] <Gene_> Nah, leaving it there for the automatic build seems pretty handy
[15:26:13] <alex_joni> that is what I meant
[15:26:33] <Gene_> I thought so. And the command to do that is?
[15:26:51] <alex_joni> first checkout emc2 (normal way)
[15:27:01] <alex_joni> cd emc2/src/ checkout axis (normal way)
[15:27:09] <Gene_> Just did a refresh from HEAD
[15:27:17] <alex_joni> the next time you'll be doing cvs up in emc2/ it will do the cvs up for both
[15:27:53] <Gene_> So I should do another refresh right now?
[15:28:06] <alex_joni> how did you get AXIS ?
[15:28:15] <alex_joni> and where is it located?
[15:28:40] <Gene_> axis.latest.tar.gz, from thursdays latest
[15:28:55] <Gene_> in src
[15:29:02] <alex_joni> delete the folder axis from src
[15:29:06] <alex_joni> then grab one from CVS
[15:29:16] <alex_joni> in the same place
[15:29:51] <alex_joni> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@axis.unpythonic.net:2401/cvsroot co axis
[15:31:11] <Gene_> gone, and it looks like that worked ok while cd'd to src
[15:31:40] <Gene_> Now, the usual build for run in place?
[15:31:46] <alex_joni> right
[15:32:00] <alex_joni> and from now on 'cvs up -dP' in emc2/ && the normal build
[15:33:11] <skunkworks> where could I get a list of the latest functionality of emc2 - everything that is in .3?
[15:33:19] <Gene_> doing it
[15:33:23] <alex_joni> skunkworks: changelog
[15:33:48] <skunkworks> been away to long. alex - where would I find that?
[15:33:58] <alex_joni> skunkworks: searching for a link now
[15:34:04] <skunkworks> thank you
[15:34:46] <alex_joni> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/docs/NEWS?rev=;content-type=text%2Fplain;only_with_tag=RELEASE_2_0_3
[15:34:57] <alex_joni> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/debian/changelog?rev=;content-type=text%2Fplain;only_with_tag=RELEASE_2_0_3
[15:35:41] <skunkworks> thank you alex
[15:35:45] <alex_joni> np
[15:38:04] <Gene_> Thanks, its running. Silly Q though, is there a quick and dirty way to scale the axis view, its rather smallish
[15:38:14] <alex_joni> scroll?
[15:38:25] <skunkworks> can I ask one question. -- When I got lost you guys where looking over the emc1 tp. Was anything integrated or was it decided that the current tp was better?
[15:38:28] <alex_joni> shift-leftclick zoom?
[15:38:32] <Gene_> Using only about 20% of the available window real estate
[15:38:56] <alex_joni> skunkworks: not that I know.. but I was away myself
[15:39:28] <Gene_> ahh, shift scroill wheel in this case, thanks.
[15:40:56] <Gene_> Now, is there a way to scale the grey circle used for bit position?
[15:41:15] <alex_joni> yes, use a bigger tool in your toolfile
[15:41:31] <alex_joni> it uses the actual tool diameter
[15:41:42] <alex_joni> and 4xdiameter for length afaik
[15:41:49] <Gene_> Its about an inch in diameter right now, and there are no tools defined yet, frash install
[15:42:19] <alex_joni> T1M6
[15:42:31] <alex_joni> if you have some tools in the tbl file
[15:44:45] <Gene_> I'll have to look at that .tbl and see if I can figure outto define that tools.
[15:45:28] <Gene_> Its 1/8 shank, and tapers its cutting edges down to about a 1/16" ballnose, a dremel toolbit.
[15:47:57] <Gene_> Humm, sitting here watching it, the cutting trace is not centered on the dot, but moves around in an offcenter fashion that does NOT center on the center of the bit.
[15:48:11] <Gene_> axis prob?
[15:48:29] <alex_joni> sounds like you have some tool compensation turned on
[15:48:29] <Gene_> or lack of a defined tool type
[15:48:45] <Gene_> where would I look?
[15:48:46] <alex_joni> it should go with the side of the tool aligned to the toolpath
[15:48:52] <alex_joni> G<something>
[15:49:38] <Gene_> Oh, no, thats the outut of truetype-tracer, massaged only for speeds and scaling.
[15:50:47] <Gene_> so all commands in the running gcode file are G01.
[15:51:12] <Gene_> G00 being too fast, give following errors
[15:53:15] <Gene_> Suggestion for axis. It needs a green or blue dot at the cutting point, leaving it red when it has moved on.
[15:53:36] <Gene_> this would improve the visibility of that cutting point, a lot.
[15:54:26] <Gene_> Humm, would that carry over from the initial axis-1.4a0 displays code?
[15:54:42] <Gene_> Humm, would that apparent carry over from the initial axis-1.4a0 displays code?
[15:54:56] <Gene_> Humm, would that apparent offset carry over from the initial axis-1.4a0 displays code?
[15:55:13] <Gene_> I'll get it right eventually...
[16:01:43] <Gene_> Heres another interesting observation. I was looking at the Z style display, in the 3d display the point of the grey cone matches the cut exactly.
[16:02:19] <Gene_> Is this an overhead parallax artifact when looking at the Z display?
[16:03:17] <Gene_> I note that the size of the grey circle changes quite a bit, larger when the bit rises that .150" between cuts.
[16:04:26] <Gene_> Thanks Alex, back later, got grass to cut before the heat gets out of hand completely.
[16:04:42] <alex_joni> ok
[16:10:13] <robin_sz> oops. damn ebay
[16:10:28] <robin_sz> I think I just bought a car.
[16:11:03] <robin_sz> ah well, it will make a good replacemnet for the wifes rotting BMW estate
[16:19:25] <danfalck> cradek, I am trying to do a cvs co of axis and I was able to download all the source
[16:20:16] <danfalck> cradek, I am looking 'For EMC2, EMCROOT is the absolute path to the "emc" directory'
[16:20:35] <danfalck> cradek, on Ubuntu
[16:20:49] <danfalck> which one is it?
[16:20:53] <cradek> danfalck: just move the axis directory inside emc2/src and it will build automatically when you build emc2
[16:21:08] <cradek> so you will have emc2/src/axis/...
[16:21:25] <danfalck> I wasn't able to build full emc2 from source yet
[16:21:30] <renesis> the dapper emc2 package is just scripted compile, no?
[16:21:39] <renesis> its not just a binary drop?
[16:21:39] <danfalck> breezy badger
[16:21:49] <jmkasunich> its binary
[16:21:51] <renesis> there a dapper one too now, no?
[16:21:52] <jmkasunich> debs are precompiled
[16:21:55] <jmkasunich> yes
[16:21:58] <renesis> really, no compiling?
[16:22:02] <renesis> neeeat
[16:22:04] <jmkasunich> really
[16:22:19] <danfalck> axis that I installed from synaptic is about 3 months old
[16:22:21] <renesis> ima try full daper install on the 200mhz amd
[16:22:33] <renesis> prob take all day
[16:22:37] <renesis> * renesis kicks box
[16:22:56] <renesis> er
[16:23:05] <renesis> maybe i should try badger
[16:23:25] <renesis> i dont think that kernel reset looped my box like the dapper server kernel
[16:52:00] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[17:20:46] <alex_joni> anyone cares for some pictures from sicily? http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/blog/index.cgi/photography/01154884743
[17:30:43] <renesis> k burninating teh ubuntu 5.1
[17:33:52] <skunkworks> alex_joni: nice pictures
[17:33:57] <alex_joni> ty
[17:46:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Um, random thing, DTG is just one value
[17:46:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that doesn't seem right
[17:47:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shouldn't there be a DTG X = sdf and DTG Z = abc and if a mill also DTG Y = xyz
[17:47:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what does the current DTG show if doing a 45° chamfer? sqrt(2)*length?
[17:49:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra pokes cradek
[17:49:15] <alex_joni> I think he's away for a while
[17:49:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[17:49:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra pokes alex_joni instead
[17:49:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ;)
[17:49:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is immune to poking
[17:49:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh?
[17:49:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how did that immunity arise?
[17:50:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> lots of poking in the past?
[18:02:49] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: I think that's what it does.
[18:03:50] <jepler> so a radius-1 arc will start out with dtg approx. 2*pi
[18:06:28] <jepler> what should an X-Y-Z DTG show at the start of a radius-1 arc?
[18:07:35] <jepler> dan_falck: To build AXIS to go with the emc2 package, install emc2-dev and I think use EMCROOT=/usr
[18:14:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler: a DTG with XYZ would behave like this:
[18:14:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> G code DTG at start
[18:14:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g0 x0 y0 z0 n/a
[18:14:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g1 x10 x10 y&z n/a
[18:14:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g3 x 20 y10 r10 x10 y10 z n/a
[18:14:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g3 x10 y20 r10 x-10 y10 z n/a
[18:14:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g1 z10 z10 x&y n/a
[18:14:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> basically it shows the distance to go between the current position and the end position for each axis
[18:14:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I
[18:14:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'm not sure which behavior is best though
[18:15:03] <alex_joni> I like path distance better
[18:15:07] <alex_joni> easier to overview
[18:15:17] <tomp> hello all
[18:15:20] <alex_joni> hi tom
[18:15:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> in some cases I need xyz though, for instance if I'm doing a radius near the chuck/clamp and I need to see if there is enough clearance
[18:16:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> equations in touch off is really nice! :D
[18:17:25] <jepler> thanks
[18:20:14] <tomp> 'scusa, where are the logs available?
[18:20:24] <jepler> logger_aj: bookmark
[18:20:24] <jepler> See
[18:20:37] <tomp> thanks
[18:30:08] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: export only [TRAJ]AXES axes from halui (the others can't be used anyways, and only clutter the pinlist)
[18:31:57] <jepler> cradek was talking about a feature that might be a good complement to DTG: click on any line in the preview plot, and get its dimensions, just like it's done for the whole program right now
[18:32:03] <jepler> he hasn't gotten around to writing it, though
[18:33:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, that would be good
[18:33:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> though my original problem isn't solved by that
[18:34:20] <jepler> yeah
[18:47:57] <etla> so the docs are now moved to /src
[18:48:16] <alex_joni> etla: right
[18:48:43] <etla> it's only the emc docs or ? (user + hal guides ?)
[18:48:48] <etla> eh... emc2 docs
[18:52:43] <alex_joni> user + hal guides so far
[18:52:56] <alex_joni> we'll want integrator & dev too some day though
[18:53:44] <etla> right. I'm blogging from winxp now but I'll switch to ubuntu and take a look soon (wish I could have both OSs running at the same time:)
[18:54:08] <alex_joni> you can
[18:54:14] <alex_joni> vmware server allows that
[18:54:18] <alex_joni> and it seems free
[18:54:33] <etla> and the performance is ?
[18:54:40] <alex_joni> pretty good on a decent puter
[18:54:48] <alex_joni> I'd say 20% slower than native
[18:55:08] <alex_joni> I'm running a 1.4GHz Centrino here (512 MB ram), seems fine
[18:55:39] <etla> wow, maybe I have to look into that - well it's not _that_ important...
[18:56:02] <alex_joni> I use it now and then
[18:56:41] <etla> I saw you added the halui feed override stuff
[18:56:43] <etla> great.
[18:56:53] <etla> I'll have to test it someday soon
[18:57:39] <etla> any thoughts on how to do spindle speed override ?
[18:58:32] <alex_joni> for now, or for good?
[18:58:57] <etla> in the near future, I guess the mechanics of our mill will be ready during the fall
[18:59:12] <alex_joni> I plan to add a spindle_speed_override to emc2
[18:59:27] <alex_joni> kinda like FO, but with 2 ini settings (min & max)
[18:59:29] <etla> that would be an iocontrol pin ?
[18:59:39] <alex_joni> then add it to halui at least, and the other guis
[18:59:45] <alex_joni> etla: no, a GUI thing
[19:00:05] <alex_joni> a slider in tkemc
[19:00:26] <etla> right.
[19:00:30] <alex_joni> and axis
[19:00:35] <alex_joni> and mini.. I guess
[19:00:53] <etla> was there talk about rapid override also (a similar percentage for G0) ?
[19:01:17] <alex_joni> sure.. lots of talk :D
[19:01:46] <etla> rapid override seems "standard" on commercial controls
[19:02:33] <alex_joni> etla: how about adding a feature request?
[19:02:42] <etla> sure.
[19:03:04] <etla> btw I think I filed a bug report about the missing feed override in halui - that can be deleted now :)
[19:03:07] <alex_joni> actually 2 (one for spindle_speed_override - assign it to me)
[19:03:20] <alex_joni> etla: I think I deleted it right away
[19:03:24] <alex_joni> it wasn't a bug :D
[19:03:32] <alex_joni> halui is a work in progress :D
[19:04:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: what do you mean by rapid override?
[19:04:28] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: different FO's for G1 and G0
[19:04:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla: makes all movements at maxvel, no cooling or rotation of spindle?
[19:04:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: oh. uh.
[19:04:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm
[19:04:51] <etla> L_H: that G0 is moved at less than the maxvel
[19:05:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I take it that lowering G0 temporarily wont affect g1 at all?
[19:05:26] <etla> no
[19:05:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nor will it affect the behavior of a jogwheel (other than limiting the maxvel during g0)
[19:05:37] <etla> normal feed override would affect both though
[19:05:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, right
[19:05:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds good
[19:06:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> typically that would be via buttons and not a wheel, right?
[19:06:54] <etla> on commercial controls I think they have a separate wheel or a knob. EMC could do whatever the integrator wants ;)
[19:07:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[19:07:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> of course ;)
[19:07:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how does emc control RPM currently?
[19:07:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pwm signal on an output?
[19:08:02] <etla> from iocontrol there is a pin that will tell you the spindle rpm
[19:08:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 0-5V where 5V signifies max rpm?
[19:08:13] <etla> again, you can do whatever you want in HAL with that value
[19:08:16] <alex_joni> etla: not anymore
[19:08:31] <alex_joni> etla: spindle is in motion, not iocontrol
[19:08:40] <alex_joni> RT control, because of future CSS
[19:08:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> woo!
[19:09:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how do most people let emc control rpm?
[19:09:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pwm on a parport pin or something else?
[19:09:35] <alex_joni> analog I suspect
[19:09:54] <alex_joni> analog -> VFD
[19:10:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> vfd?
[19:10:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can only think of vacuum flourescent display
[19:10:41] <etla> variable frequency drive
[19:10:42] <jmkasunich> variable frequency drive
[19:10:45] <etla> for ac induction motors
[19:11:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, right
[19:11:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> frekvensomvandlare for us borkborkborks
[19:11:35] <etla> nånting sånt ja
[19:12:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ! that spooked me
[19:13:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I seem to be forgetting how many people are borkborkborkers here
[19:13:29] <etla> well if you have followed the lists you might know my real name and then it shouldnt spook you
[19:13:52] <etla> I'm from finland anyway...
[19:13:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> strange, I should have noticed
[19:14:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, right!
[19:15:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> anyway, so the most common output is pwm?
[19:16:01] <etla> I don't think it's very common to have emc control the spindle on hobby machines
[19:16:18] <etla> we have done just fine 2-3 years without it, just a manual pot to the vfd
[19:16:27] <jmkasunich> and on bigger machines with analog servos, you'd use a DAC to control it
[19:16:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[19:16:35] <etla> without a tool changer it's not so interesting
[19:16:51] <jmkasunich> cradek did use PWM output (filtered) to control a sherline spindle drive
[19:16:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I have a pot currently, but with CSS coming up I'll need emc to control it
[19:17:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> going from pwm to a simulated pot isn't hard
[19:18:13] <alex_joni> not at all
[19:22:19] <etla> will the spindle output from motion feature acceleration/jerk limits? or will it be bang-bang like the iocontrol pin was ?
[19:23:00] <jmkasunich> my choice would be for the spindle speed command from motion to instantly go to whatever the S word tells it to do
[19:23:26] <jmkasunich> then you can run it thru a limit2 block to apply minspeed, maxspeed, and accel rate limits to it
[19:23:34] <jmkasunich> or not, if your VFD already has ramp rate limits
[19:23:35] <etla> but then emc would not worry too much about spindle following error
[19:24:05] <jmkasunich> we might want a "spindle at speed" input to EMC
[19:24:19] <jmkasunich> that would make it pause while the spindle accelerates or decels
[19:24:27] <jmkasunich> simple systems would just tie that pin true
[19:24:32] <alex_joni> that needs some tolerance I think
[19:24:44] <jepler> or use ladder logic to enforce a dumb delay
[19:24:55] <jmkasunich> right, theres lots of ways to handle it
[19:25:02] <jmkasunich> many VFDs have an at speed output
[19:25:11] <jmkasunich> (the one on the cnc workshop mazak does)
[19:25:13] <alex_joni> don't want emc2 pause in the cut, only because "spindle at speed" is not set
[19:25:23] <jmkasunich> or you can use a comparator looking at spindle speed feedback and command
[19:25:26] <jmkasunich> or a delay
[19:25:42] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: it depends
[19:25:55] <jmkasunich> on the very first part we cut at the workshop, we almost broke a tool
[19:26:07] <jmkasunich> because the program started the spindle and immedately began moving into the cut
[19:26:16] <jmkasunich> the spindle was still speeding up when it started cutting
[19:26:34] <jmkasunich> if we were a little closer to the part it would have been going very slow ( and thus a very heavy chip load )
[19:26:52] <alex_joni> I can understand the benefit
[19:27:04] <alex_joni> but I imagine it's a bit of a pita to set up corectly
[19:27:14] <alex_joni> and it depends on the material that you're cutting
[19:27:18] <alex_joni> and tool type, etc
[19:27:20] <jmkasunich> for milling you don't change speeds while cutting (usually) and pause for accel/decel is probably good
[19:27:29] <jmkasunich> for a lathe that uses CSS, not so good
[19:27:40] <etla> an e-stop on spindle "choke" would be nice also
[19:28:01] <anonimasu> hm, why not rig cl to do that for you?
[19:28:21] <jmkasunich> thats what we did on the mazak
[19:28:31] <etla> yeah, I guess that can be done as it is now
[19:28:31] <jmkasunich> used the adaptive feed input, connected it to a mux
[19:28:41] <jmkasunich> one input 1.0, the other 0.0, at-speed switches the mux
[19:29:02] <jmkasunich> so if the spindle isn't at speed, it sets adaptive-feed to zero - feedhold
[19:30:15] <danfalck> jepler, thanks. I got axis to install from source
[19:30:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: why not set adaptive feed = spindlespeed/spindleset ?
[19:30:41] <jmkasunich> too complicated
[19:30:48] <alex_joni> that would assure constant chip load
[19:30:52] <jmkasunich> and divide by zero when you command zero speed
[19:31:00] <danfalck> jepler, now I get an error - invalid command name "set_slider_min"
[19:31:13] <jmkasunich> I'd rather just not cut while the spindle is coming up to speed
[19:31:16] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that can be tweaked
[19:31:21] <danfalck> jepler, do I need to install another package?
[19:31:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> if you have feedrate in units/turn you don't have this problem
[19:31:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> with not up to speed
[19:31:39] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I was more thinking about during the cut (at full spindle speed)
[19:31:57] <alex_joni> replacing the 1.0 above in your example
[19:32:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'course you'd need an index for the spindle, which isn't common for a mill
[19:32:31] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: if its up to speed, then why bother with the math?
[19:32:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> though I think that you'd want a closed loop system for spindle speed
[19:32:48] <jmkasunich> if its not up to speed, I'd rather not cut at all
[19:32:48] <alex_joni> because it might not be constant for some reason
[19:33:04] <alex_joni> not sure how well the VFD sets the speed
[19:33:21] <alex_joni> coupled with chipload during the actual cut
[19:33:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you'd need a min_speed_to_start
[19:33:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as a % of nominal speed
[19:33:40] <jmkasunich> you can do all kinds of complex things, IF you have actual speed feedback
[19:33:43] <jepler> danfalck: no, that should come from the installed file 'axis.tcl'. Is the file /usr/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl the same as the file tcl/axis.tcl in the source tree?
[19:33:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then only check that parameter at start of cut
[19:33:57] <jepler> (you're trying to install a new AXIS for the packaged version of emc2, right?)
[19:33:58] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: right
[19:34:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: you have to have feedback somewhere in the loop, right?
[19:34:27] <jmkasunich> many machines don't
[19:34:38] <jepler> danfalck: if they're different, then it's because the files from the emc2-axis package and the ones you installed are mixed up. Remove the emc2-axis package and then run 'setup.py install --force' to copy all the files regardless of timestamps.
[19:34:41] <jmkasunich> send a speed command to the VFD
[19:34:52] <jmkasunich> the VFD generates an output frequency proportional to the command
[19:35:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the VFD must at least be able to passivly sense if the current is too high
[19:35:08] <jmkasunich> and the motor runs at that speed (or a little less, depending on torque load)
[19:35:27] <jmkasunich> most VFDs have current limit, and will lower voltage and frequency if overloaded
[19:35:45] <jmkasunich> (and they would turn off their "at speed" output in that case)
[19:35:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm. do they output a signal that says it's overloaded?
[19:36:00] <jmkasunich> depends on the drive
[19:36:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> well then it's not completely open loop at least
[19:36:26] <jmkasunich> at-speed is more common than overload (and more versatile, because it covers other reasons for not being at speed)
[19:36:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, then what is the issue?
[19:36:55] <jmkasunich> damned if I know
[19:36:57] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[19:37:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> why can't emc wait for the at_speed signal after changing the speed, and only start cutting after that?
[19:37:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha :D
[19:37:31] <jmkasunich> thats exactly what I first meant
[19:37:52] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich we might want a "spindle at speed" input to EMC
[19:37:53] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich that would make it pause while the spindle accelerates or decels
[19:37:53] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich simple systems would just tie that pin true
[19:37:59] <jmkasunich> 13 mins ago ;-)
[19:38:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[19:38:04] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: did you get my plan earlier? to add a spindle_speed_override ? (just like FO, but with 2 ini references: min & max)
[19:38:14] <alex_joni> this would be in the GUI's
[19:38:37] <jmkasunich> it would be a multiply applied to the S words?
[19:38:41] <alex_joni> right
[19:39:10] <jmkasunich> and the min and max would be something like 0.3 and 1.2 (min and max multipliers)? or min and max RPM?
[19:39:19] <alex_joni> min and max multipliers
[19:39:30] <alex_joni> don't go lower than 30%
[19:39:35] <jmkasunich> spindle speed command now comes out of motmod, right?
[19:39:39] <alex_joni> right
[19:40:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you need a max_rpm too
[19:40:19] <jmkasunich> we'll have to define how spindle override works when you're doing constant surface speed
[19:40:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> for each gear as well.. :/
[19:40:31] <alex_joni> maybe not at all
[19:40:50] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra: good point
[19:41:03] <jmkasunich> emc proper currently isn't aware of gears
[19:41:19] <jmkasunich> it just sets a speed, and CL plus HAL handle things like gearshifting
[19:41:42] <jmkasunich> but if the speed command is going to vary during a cut, it can't be allowed to vary over the threshold that causes a gearshift
[19:42:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then you'l also have the issue of what CSS does when desired RPM<min/>max
[19:42:29] <jmkasunich> things like that make me want to make "min-spindle-rpm" and "max-spindle-rpm" be HAL pins
[19:42:51] <jmkasunich> so the external gearshift logic can set the limits on the fly when it shifts
[19:42:54] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: no reason against that
[19:43:24] <jmkasunich> except...
[19:43:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> when using CSS though reaching RPM limits isn't awful, as typically you have feedrate as unit/turn
[19:43:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so it's somewhat forgiving
[19:43:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> rather than units/time
[19:44:23] <jmkasunich> suppose you are in low range, min is 100, max is 1000, and you get an S2000
[19:44:43] <jmkasunich> if it obeys the limits, it will never command more than 1000, so the gearshift will never happen
[19:45:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so EMC has to decide when a gearshift is acceptable and when it isn't :/
[19:45:46] <jmkasunich> yeah
[19:46:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the simplest is I assume that when you explicitly set RPM, it asks for gearshift
[19:46:17] <jmkasunich> S word you mean?
[19:46:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes
[19:46:51] <CIA-12> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10axis/extensions/halmodule.cc: make it possible to create parameters as well as pins in python hal components
[19:46:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and in the event of a CSS activation, somehow it determines the optimum gear and asks for it
[19:47:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and between that CSS start and the next S word stays in that gear
[19:47:31] <jmkasunich> I don't even know how speed is specified in CSS mode
[19:47:39] <jepler> we don't have a CSS mode yet
[19:47:44] <jepler> so, who knows...
[19:47:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> its perifrial speed
[19:47:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err, sp
[19:48:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> typically in meters/feet minute
[19:48:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> speed for the tooltip
[19:48:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so as the diameter lessens the speed increases, and inversely as the diameter increases
[19:49:26] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: you scared etla away
[19:49:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> looks like that :(
[19:49:44] <alex_joni> kidding
[19:50:09] <jmkasunich> I suppose if you know the diameter when you turn on CSS mode, we can pretend that you issued an S word at that time, with the value being whatever makes the specified surface speed at the current diameter
[19:50:20] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: fix the way HAL pins get checked
[19:50:38] <jmkasunich> let the external logic shift as needed (and set the limits), then begin CSS operation observing the limits
[19:51:09] <jmkasunich> I dunno, I don't want to talk about this anymore, its a distraction
[19:51:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> turning on CSS *always* entails entering an S word
[19:51:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as does turning it off
[19:51:32] <jmkasunich> but the S word is in surface speed instead fo RPM?
[19:51:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes
[19:52:39] <jmkasunich> how about: when in CSS mode, emc obeys the spindle speed limits set by a couple HAL pins, when in normal mode it doesn't (or there are separate limits)
[19:53:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm
[19:53:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and that way emc doesn't have to know about gears?
[19:53:20] <jmkasunich> for CSS work, you first (while cutting air) give an S word that puts you in the desired gear range (and the external logic shifts gears if needed)
[19:53:46] <jmkasunich> then you turn on CSS and give speed in surface units
[19:53:56] <danfalck> jepler, thanks, yes axis.tcl files are different.
[19:53:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you don't need to be doing anything in particular when starting CSS
[19:54:03] <jmkasunich> the external logic tells EMC the min and max speeds allowed for that particular gear
[19:54:09] <jmkasunich> and CSS stays in that range
[19:54:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, right
[19:54:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how does the external logic determine the correct gear?
[19:54:42] <jmkasunich> thats up to the guy who designes the external logic (machine builder)
[19:54:53] <jmkasunich> for a two speed machine, a simple comparator looking at speed command
[19:55:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds like something emc should determine, after all, it's emc that knows the toolpath
[19:55:10] <jmkasunich> if greater than some threshold, gear 1, if lower, gear 2
[19:55:40] <jmkasunich> right now, EMC doesn't understand anything at all about gears
[19:55:46] <jmkasunich> nor does it have enough lookahead
[19:55:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[19:55:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that complicates matters
[19:56:13] <jmkasunich> suppose a CSS move starts with a 1mm chamfer on the OD of a 300mm disk, then faces toward the center
[19:56:31] <jmkasunich> the first CSS move thinks the diameter is going to go from 300mm to 298mm
[19:56:46] <jmkasunich> it doesn't know the next move is going to change the diameter from 298mm to 0mm
[19:56:56] <jmkasunich> so it can't possibly guess which gear to use
[19:56:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so emc can't read ahead and see that?
[19:57:15] <jmkasunich> not today, and I haven't a clue how to go about doing that
[19:57:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm. ok
[19:58:33] <jmkasunich> also, even if EMC knew the diameter range needed, it doesn't know about gears, it doesn't know the min and max speeds for each gear
[19:58:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the ideal thing would be for emc to look ahead at all G1/2/3 moves prior to the next S word, and then calculate the best gear based on the time it takes
[19:59:02] <jmkasunich> ?
[19:59:04] <jmkasunich> on the time?
[19:59:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so for that you would need to know about gears and lookahead
[19:59:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the determining factor for choosing a certain gear over another is the production time
[19:59:41] <jmkasunich> seems the best gear is the one that keeps the actual surface speed as close as possible to the commanded surface speed for as much of the cut as possible
[19:59:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm
[19:59:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> right
[20:00:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra neds slep
[20:00:11] <danfalck> jepler, thanks! got it installed (axis 1.4a0)
[20:00:35] <jmkasunich> if the diameter range is too wide to handle, one case might be to allow the surface speed at the center to be less than desired (good for tools that can't take excessive speed)
[20:00:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> indeed
[20:00:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> lower speed is often better than higher
[20:01:04] <jmkasunich> another approach migh be to allow the surf speed at the outside to be higher than desired (good for some carbides, maybe)
[20:01:15] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: go back to docs ;)
[20:01:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you wear them out faster
[20:01:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> anyway, the simplest thing for now if one were to test getting CSS to work would be to display a "choose correct gear" on all CSS S words
[20:01:41] <jmkasunich> third approach is to cut part, stop feed and retract tool, change gears, and cut the rest
[20:01:47] <jepler> danfalck: good
[20:02:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: then EMC has to know where "safe" is and how to get there
[20:02:26] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra: I wasn't thinking of EMC being that smart
[20:02:39] <jmkasunich> the part programmer would decide to make the cut in two passes with a gearchange in the middle
[20:02:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and after manually choosing the gear emc stays within the rpm limits
[20:02:46] <jmkasunich> no computer can be that smart
[20:02:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[20:02:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> right
[20:03:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> unless it's controller+cam in one thing
[20:03:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> but I digress ;)
[20:03:22] <jmkasunich> and really smart cam two, knowing the materials and the cutting speed limits and the tradeoffs
[20:03:26] <alex_joni> throw cad in there.. and it should soon replace a human completely
[20:03:40] <alex_joni> just show it a part, and it will duplicate it :D
[20:04:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> perfect
[20:06:33] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/ (configure configure.in): added tests for LyX and associated stuff to configure. next step is to use that info to build pdf documentation
[20:20:23] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: added feed-override increase/decrease buttons
[20:21:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: those "buttons" are they normal pins?
[20:22:07] <alex_joni> yes
[20:22:15] <alex_joni> err.. I meant pins :(
[20:23:42] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/halui_halvcp/ (halui.vcp halvcp.hal): feed-override increase/decrease
[20:24:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha, ok. so it's interfaced in the same was as FO?
[20:24:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> same format with a FO wheel
[20:29:12] <alex_joni> it's supposed to be operated by two buttons
[20:29:14] <alex_joni> up/down
[20:29:42] <alex_joni> the other way is to add a jogwheel and scroll it, this is for simpler control
[20:38:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, there's already support for counters
[20:39:28] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: cleaning up
[20:40:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni says halui is finished for now..
[20:40:11] <alex_joni> let the rest be feature requests
[20:40:31] <jepler> alex_joni: congrats and thanks for your work
[20:40:39] <renesis> ...
[20:41:06] <renesis> ubuntu pkg install/config went from 67% to 61%
[20:41:15] <renesis> then it said configuring bicyclerepair
[20:41:18] <renesis> WTF??
[20:43:54] <alex_joni> renesis: lacking a bicycle ?
[20:44:12] <renesis> okay lets not getting into my real life bike
[20:44:17] <renesis> cuz its better than yours
[20:44:25] <alex_joni> renesis: :-P
[20:44:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> emc needs a bicycle attached to the com port to get various parameters
[20:44:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or something
[20:44:36] <renesis> this is like, debian packaged bicycle repair?
[20:44:49] <renesis> will a robinson work?
[20:45:00] <renesis> i know robinsons are somewhat obsolete in a sense
[20:45:13] <renesis> also its a non standard footprint (24" cruiser BMX)
[20:46:02] <renesis> ..
[20:46:30] <renesis> you guys are mean why wont you help me =(
[20:47:17] <alex_joni> what's a robinson?
[20:47:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I certainly don
[20:47:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 't know what that package is
[20:47:32] <renesis> high end racing GT
[20:47:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> argh why is ' close to <enter>
[20:48:15] <renesis> like, dyno was the low end GT, robinson was the high end GT
[20:48:40] <renesis> they stopped making them tho, and 24" BMX is kinda rare regardless
[20:48:59] <renesis> i had to watch my friends pitbull pups like 10 times to earn that bike
[20:49:38] <renesis> heh, prob put close to 2000mi on it
[20:50:09] <renesis> needs new crank sprocket, and rear wheel straightened, poor thing
[20:50:31] <renesis> still hella quick tho
[20:51:20] <renesis> great, my NC box will be able stream mp3 on top of fixing bicyles
[20:51:36] <renesis> * renesis stabs ubuntu default install
[20:52:36] <renesis> http://bicyclerepair.sourceforge.net/
[20:52:40] <renesis> * renesis shrug
[20:53:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> possibly that and axis are fighting
[20:53:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler may know more
[20:53:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra pokes jepler
[20:53:59] <alex_joni> YAY .. Monty Pyton
[20:54:04] <alex_joni> Python ;)
[20:54:34] <alex_joni> "The Bicycle Repair Man was a superhero in a Monty Python skit, his special power was repairing bicycles. The Python Refactoring Browser is supposed to be good at only one thing as well."
[20:57:03] <jepler> axis uses python but I doubt it has anything to do with why bicycle repair is being configured or why the progress bar is no good
[21:16:53] <renesis> 77%...
[21:17:31] <renesis> its being installed because its just part of ubuntu default pkg set
[21:17:45] <renesis> prob doesnt have shit to do with emc
[21:18:07] <alex_joni> renesis: of course it doesn't
[21:18:28] <renesis> i didnt emc man, i dunno
[21:18:49] <renesis> it could be based on libflowers_and_coke.h for all i know
[21:20:52] <Mhel> hello
[21:21:43] <alex_joni> hi Mhel
[21:23:12] <Mhel> hi alex_joni, I made some progress, I had to recompile slack kernel to disable parport now I'm getting movement, now playing with ini
[21:23:25] <alex_joni> cool
[21:25:22] <Mhel> what would be the ideal setting for a Gecko201 10 microstep? (got them as gift)
[21:27:07] <Mhel> BTW the docs for EMC2.03 is great
[21:29:34] <alex_joni> Mhel: what do you mean ideal setting for the g201 ?
[21:29:49] <alex_joni> you set the settings based on the motors, not the drives
[21:30:06] <alex_joni> the G201 is very nice, it will mostly take anything that comes out of emc2
[21:31:23] <Mhel> I'm a bit confuse with max velocity, if I increase it in th TRAJ section I can see the effect, what about per axis velocity?
[21:31:48] <Mhel> per axis velocity settings I mean.
[21:32:25] <alex_joni> the max vel of an axis will be min(traj, axis)
[21:34:03] <Mhel> do you mean the min of traj velocity settings is the max of axis?
[21:34:19] <alex_joni> no, I mean that whichever is lower will make the axis go only that fast
[21:34:33] <Mhel> oh, ok
[21:36:36] <Mhel> is there another way to tune my settings while emc is running or just the edit ini and restart?
[21:54:33] <dave_e> cradek...you awake?
[21:56:01] <dave_e> ok, I guess I don't get to pick on chris.
[21:56:19] <dave_e> any victim will do ;-)
[21:56:45] <dave_e> I can't make sense out of the move command in usrmot
[21:57:09] <dave_e> syntax would help!
[22:03:03] <alex_joni> usrmot?
[22:03:05] <alex_joni> eek
[22:03:26] <dave_e> a mouse chased by cat?
[22:04:09] <dave_e> I can get abort , etc to work and moves work but not the axis I want.
[22:04:59] <dave_e> help says <x> <y> <z> but no | yet it wants 2 numbers
[22:05:34] <dave_e> and axis number followed by target pos or reversed doesn't seem to give me what I want
[22:07:37] <dave_e> alex is thinking... or probably reading code
[22:07:46] <alex_joni> sleepy at most ;)
[22:07:53] <alex_joni> did you turn machine on?
[22:08:14] <dave_e> yes it getting on where you are
[22:08:47] <dave_e> Oh, it moves just not the axis I want or necessarily the position
[22:08:51] <alex_joni> any reason to use usrmot?
[22:09:01] <alex_joni> why not keystick ?
[22:09:35] <dave_e> I would expect 0 3 to give me a x move to 3.0 instead it moves y
[22:09:43] <alex_joni> is jogging Ok ? or do you want it to move?
[22:10:08] <dave_e> I want a move to an explicit location
[22:10:21] <dave_e> I'm not sure I got jog to work....different command
[22:10:27] <alex_joni> 0 3 0 (moves to x=0 y=3 z=0)
[22:10:30] <alex_joni> I think
[22:10:35] <alex_joni> try 2 0 0
[22:10:52] <dave_e> I wants 2 numbers and complains about anything else
[22:11:16] <dave_e> brb
[22:12:26] <dave_e> yep... I tried 0 0 2 and got back "need 2 numbers"
[22:13:46] <dave_e> if I need to punt what will keystick do for me... and does it run under emc2?
[22:14:22] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/ (.cvsignore Hal_Introduction.pdf): build system can now make PDF documentation from LyX files: new targets 'make doc' and 'make docclean'
[22:14:25] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/ (Makefile Makefile.inc.in configure configure.in): build system can now make PDF documentation from LyX files: new targets 'make doc' and 'make docclean'
[22:14:25] <CIA-12> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/Submakefile: build system can now make PDF documentation from LyX files: new targets 'make doc' and 'make docclean'
[22:14:38] <alex_joni> keystick is like tkemc, but without the need of X
[22:14:45] <alex_joni> and yes, it runs for emc2
[22:15:20] <dave_e> is there a help file
[22:15:28] <alex_joni> don't think so
[22:15:50] <dave_e> I've tried keystick in the past and haven't gotten past the syntax so I could enter something
[22:16:17] <dave_e> guess I could try tho
[22:16:39] <dave_e> I'll go play and see
[22:16:40] <dave_e> tnx
[22:17:07] <dave_e> going going gone
[22:32:26] <robin_sz> I spy ...
[22:32:32] <robin_sz> with my little eye ..
[22:32:39] <robin_sz> something beginning with ...
[22:32:58] <dave_1> I'm back... ;-(
[22:33:40] <dave_1> alex .... keystick is in the Submakefile but doesn't appear to build
[22:33:53] <alex_joni> dave_1: you need to have ncurses for it to build
[22:34:01] <alex_joni> ncurses-dev iirc
[22:34:10] <alex_joni> sudo apt-get install ncurses-dev
[22:34:17] <alex_joni> afterwards run configure again
[22:34:20] <dave_1> and breezy badger doesn't come with it?
[22:34:29] <alex_joni> not by default
[22:34:41] <dave_1> OK that answers that one ... tnx
[22:35:47] <dave_1> apt-get is running... :-)
[22:35:50] <alex_joni> great
[22:36:03] <alex_joni> dave_1: I'm puzzled that keystick wants only 2 values
[22:36:15] <alex_joni> been reading the code a bit..
[22:36:23] <dave_1> bug??
[22:36:46] <dave_1> usrmot ... only wants two values
[22:36:58] <alex_joni> I meant usrmot
[22:37:04] <alex_joni> sorry.. 2am over here
[22:37:21] <alex_joni> did you enable all 3 axes?
[22:37:34] <dave_1> it's OK I can't function in the middle of the day.
[22:37:44] <dave_1> well all three will move
[22:38:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> robin_sz: something beginning with...?
[22:38:12] <dave_1> I just don't see a pattern for the response related to the input
[22:38:30] <alex_joni> printf("<x> <y> <z>\tput motion on queue\n");
[22:38:36] <alex_joni> that's as close as it gets for me
[22:39:08] <dave_1> so 0 0 0 should get one all axes at zero
[22:39:47] <dave_1> except that it won't take three numbers
[22:40:39] <alex_joni> there is a check for how many numbers to read
[22:40:49] <dave_1> apparently
[22:40:49] <alex_joni> and the number gets set by the first read I think
[22:41:07] <alex_joni> so if you start up, and issue 0 0 0 it should check for 3 from now on I think
[22:41:15] <dave_1> I'll try
[22:41:25] <dave_1> brb
[22:42:44] <robin_sz> Lerneaen_Hydra, I was hoping to find the ascii char for thorn or diaresis or some such, but the poxy version of xchat doesnt have the ascii pad extentension
[22:42:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[22:43:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :(
[22:43:35] <dave_1> ah ... issue 0 0 0 as first command and it then takes all three.
[22:44:06] <dave_1> just a 3 sends x to 3.000 and restricts on to one axis
[22:44:33] <dave_1> thanks ... now I can go play.
[22:44:39] <robin_sz> keystick is almost useful
[22:44:53] <dave_1> but only after I get it built
[22:45:14] <robin_sz> I said almost ;)
[22:45:15] <dave_1> I'll also try that ... the help is much apprecitated
[22:45:45] <dave_1> well maybe I can get usrmot to do what I want.
[22:45:53] <dave_1> I'm also lazy
[22:46:02] <robin_sz> just found a nice linear axis for the X axis on my tube laser project :)
[22:46:15] <dave_1> and sometime SLOW
[22:46:29] <robin_sz> perfect ... well, the leadscrew is 20mm pitch, could be smaller
[22:46:35] <A-L-P-H-A> too freak'n tired to cook.
[22:46:39] <A-L-P-H-A> even though I slept all day
[22:46:42] <A-L-P-H-A> overslept.
[22:46:59] <robin_sz> heh, get married, then you dont't have to cook ;)
[22:47:10] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waits for a slap off his wife
[22:47:13] <A-L-P-H-A> what a perfect plan.
[22:47:13] <dave_1> go out and run a few miles ... then at least you have and excuse ;-)
[22:47:31] <renesis> everything ubuntu installs default...
[22:47:33] <dave_1> an excuse
[22:47:35] <renesis> it doesnt install gpm
[22:47:37] <renesis> WTF
[22:47:38] <dave_1> can't type either
[22:47:50] <renesis> * renesis stab
[22:48:02] <dave_1> gone for now...thanks everyone
[22:48:06] <robin_sz> use debian .. it works nicer and is lighter
[22:48:17] <renesis> i cant do the sexy /dev/gpmdata trick =(
[22:48:34] <renesis> i cant be playin around and compiling shit to wedge it in on that box
[22:48:41] <renesis> is only 200mhz
[22:49:00] <renesis> if emc2 pkg dont drop right into this install, this box gets no more emc chances
[22:49:02] <alex_joni> renesis: then why don't you use debian?
[22:49:22] <renesis> you really wanna have this discussion?
[22:49:27] <renesis> im a die hard gentoo user
[22:49:35] <robin_sz> oh, OK,
[22:49:36] <renesis> dcan i just leave it at that?
[22:50:00] <robin_sz> wait a minute while I go and fetch some wood and a big pole
[22:50:13] <renesis> have fun
[22:50:37] <renesis> ill be here configuring default emc dev environment on a 200mhz machine, joy
[22:51:15] <alex_joni> why not use gentoo then?
[22:52:06] <robin_sz> you'd have to do all that emerging thing ...
[22:52:07] <alex_joni> vmware server sucks sooo hard
[22:53:33] <alex_joni> it supposed to be free, but it just expired
[22:53:45] <alex_joni> and I can't find any updates (unlike the software suggests)
[22:53:48] <robin_sz> gentoo always seemed liek a really painful way of installing stuff ... it can take weeks to emerge on a slow box, I tried ot once on an old 66mhz machine, it never completed, I lost interet days before it got as far as working
[22:54:12] <alex_joni> emerge does the compile too.. right?
[22:54:20] <robin_sz> right
[22:55:03] <robin_sz> in theory it compile it just right for theproc youhave ... squeezing the last ounce of performance out of your slow old box
[22:55:21] <robin_sz> of course, compiling X on a 66mhz proc is slower than slow
[22:56:00] <robin_sz> conversely, its quick on a 2.8ghz box, but that doesnt need the extra benefit of a custom compile in the first place ...
[22:57:02] <renesis> 15:59 < alex_joni> why not use gentoo then?
[22:57:06] <renesis> 200mhz machine
[22:57:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> bah. I'm off to bed
[22:57:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 'night all
[22:57:18] <robin_sz> bah
[22:57:44] <renesis> im not even gonna try and compile anymore kernels on this machine
[22:58:13] <renesis> this shit works or no emc on that machine for nc
[22:58:15] <robin_sz> just install debian, and dpkg -i the debs for emc2 and be done
[22:58:17] <alex_joni> I can see why
[22:58:33] <alex_joni> robin_sz: and the kernel.. that might cause problems
[22:58:42] <renesis> i dont like debian
[22:58:47] <robin_sz> why/ there is a kernel deb, right?
[22:58:49] <renesis> i can stand ubuntu a bit more
[22:58:53] <alex_joni> renesis: there is
[22:58:57] <alex_joni> robin_sz: there is
[22:59:11] <alex_joni> robin_sz: but an Ubuntu deb
[22:59:16] <robin_sz> right, so its just dpkg -i <all this stuff>
[22:59:23] <alex_joni> alternatively there is paul's sargebased deb
[22:59:37] <robin_sz> oh, ubuntu ... I aint going there
[22:59:37] <alex_joni> robin_sz: the ubuntu people have lots of patches in the kernel
[22:59:44] <renesis> deb is too far from vanilla, i really dont like it
[22:59:46] <alex_joni> which might make it go borkbork :)
[22:59:53] <robin_sz> indeed.
[23:00:45] <renesis> reason they need like 4 different system branches is cuz all of them are hax0red to shit
[23:00:47] <robin_sz> I am not even going to look at ubuntu ... the #debian chanel is full of ubuntu users crying about their installs being broken and #debian users teling them to go complain on #ubuntu
[23:01:08] <renesis> ubuntu is a debian frontend
[23:01:16] <robin_sz> not really
[23:01:23] <robin_sz> its "based on" debain ...
[23:01:30] <renesis> simplistically speaking
[23:01:42] <alex_joni> it was at some point derived from debian
[23:01:55] <renesis> its apt based
[23:02:01] <robin_sz> it doesnt have the build quality of debain
[23:02:06] <renesis> debian almost is the apt system
[23:02:16] <alex_joni> build quality?
[23:02:22] <renesis> heh
[23:02:32] <robin_sz> checking of packages to make sure they actually work
[23:02:39] <renesis> yeah its not haxored as much to work well with the haxored packages in its branch of debian
[23:02:44] <robin_sz> the ubuntu guys play fast and loose with deployment
[23:03:20] <rayh> uh we grabbing at straws now?
[23:03:42] <robin_sz> no, just stating personal preferences
[23:03:48] <renesis> pretty much
[23:03:54] <rayh> okay.
[23:04:04] <alex_joni> wb ray
[23:04:30] <rayh> I've run ubuntu for quite a while now on a lot of machines and find it more stable than most.
[23:04:39] <robin_sz> alex_joni, is paul distributing source for his packages yet?
[23:04:51] <alex_joni> robin_sz: most of the sources
[23:05:17] <robin_sz> most?
[23:05:18] <renesis> wtf
[23:05:29] <renesis> it cant find the linux kernel modules dir
[23:05:32] <alex_joni> robin_sz: not quite all there should be
[23:05:35] <renesis> wont apt-get update
[23:05:47] <robin_sz> right
[23:05:51] <renesis> because it cant load the 8139too module
[23:06:12] <robin_sz> so, apt-get source emc* isnt going to work then?
[23:06:31] <alex_joni> robin_sz: it will work
[23:06:37] <renesis> completely default install
[23:06:45] <renesis> and its bork
[23:06:53] <alex_joni> but you won't be able to build another deb from it
[23:07:04] <renesis> thank god im not n00b cuz id HATE lunix cuz of this shit
[23:07:06] <robin_sz> ahh, why is that?
[23:07:25] <alex_joni> debian/ folder missing
[23:07:30] <alex_joni> or some parts of it
[23:07:33] <renesis> ima troll the fuck outta #ubuntu
[23:07:42] <robin_sz> handy
[23:07:50] <renesis> wait first ima check /etc/apt/sources
[23:07:55] <alex_joni> renesis: try keeping a nicer language in here :)
[23:07:57] <renesis> then ima troll the fuck outta #ubuntu
[23:08:03] <renesis> ah, fine
[23:08:24] <renesis> tho if you wanna call lilo on me for old times sake go right ahead
[23:08:41] <robin_sz> renesis, just remember all this is logged and appears in a digest, could be read by a wider audience ...
[23:09:08] <robin_sz> small children,
[23:09:11] <robin_sz> nuns,
[23:09:13] <robin_sz> etc
[23:09:18] <renesis> * renesis shrug
[23:09:20] <alex_joni> small nuns
[23:09:27] <alex_joni> small nuns with children
[23:09:27] <renesis> if they cant hang they shouldnt be reading IRC logs
[23:09:40] <alex_joni> small nuns with small children
[23:10:07] <renesis> why you gotta be predjudice against fat nuns?
[23:13:43] <alex_joni> robin_sz: what about those stamps?
[23:13:52] <alex_joni> gave that up for good?
[23:14:26] <robin_sz> no, still going on .. selling the java stuff to other companies
[23:14:38] <alex_joni> I see
[23:15:18] <robin_sz> one day I ma bashing metal, the next, talking to auction comapnaies about bidding systems ...
[23:15:47] <alex_joni> heh
[23:19:37] <CIA-12> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/docs/src/Submakefile: as there are more than one file, I assume make docs sounds better than make doc
[23:20:01] <alex_joni> I'm off to bed y'all
[23:20:05] <alex_joni> g'night