#emc | Logs for 2006-06-04

[00:20:08] <wholepair> anyone here
[00:20:29] <alex_joni> not really..
[00:23:07] <wholepair> I have a non emc question - now that im useing ubuntu I don't know how to FTP anymore - i used to use filezilla on XP - or I would use IE and the login as option - mozzila wil browse to the the ftp site but I can't login, don't know how... any ideas
[00:27:03] <alex_joni> usually most ftp clients accept addresses as user@ftp.server and then ask for a password
[00:29:12] <wholepair> nice - awsome - it worked -
[00:31:27] <wholepair> but it doesn't let me delete stuff or drag new files into directories. I found this but don't understand it much - http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-104082.htm
[00:41:00] <wholepair> i'll figure it out - see yall
[00:57:03] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A Simone says to ChanServ - "Change me back to the last topic"
[00:57:17] <A-L-P-H-A> A-L-P-H-A has changed the topic to: ...
[00:57:17] <ChanServ> ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - a linux based CNC control. | EMC2.0.0 is out .. | Home: www.linuxcnc.org | wiki up @ wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: www.frappr.com/emc2/
[00:58:51] <alex_joni> Simon says I've compiled too much tonight :(
[01:03:14] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, where's the automake file for EMC2??? :D
[01:03:37] <alex_joni> emc2 is the easy part
[01:04:16] <A-L-P-H-A> what's the hard part?
[01:05:59] <jepler> * jepler spits on automake
[01:06:43] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: kernel, rtai & debs
[01:09:21] <alex_joni> new packages for dapper
[01:10:01] <alex_joni> jepler: did automake upset you?
[01:10:05] <jmkasunich> evening folks
[01:10:10] <alex_joni> howdy jmk
[01:11:32] <cradek> hi jmk
[01:12:02] <jepler> alex_joni: automake caters to broken (e.g., non-gnu) makes, and at the same time encourages the terrible "recursive" style.
[01:14:31] <cradek> against my better judgement I'm downloading dapper
[01:15:03] <cradek> bittorrent sure works great for fresh releases
[01:15:27] <alex_joni> cradek: I've heard stories that dist-upgrade should work perfectly
[01:15:34] <alex_joni> maybe with the stock kernel?
[01:16:02] <cradek> I don't want to mess up my working system - I'll use a new disk, I have lots of them now
[01:16:16] <alex_joni> right.. that's a sane decision :D
[01:16:18] <jmkasunich> anybody know why the commit messages are being held for approval?
[01:16:23] <cradek> no
[01:16:31] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: no, but I think I allowed for a temp fix
[01:16:34] <cradek> according to the site news they are messing with the mailing lists
[01:16:45] <jmkasunich> s/messing with/messing up/
[01:16:56] <alex_joni> the reason I think was that somehow they thought the number of recipients was too grat
[01:16:59] <alex_joni> great
[01:17:07] <alex_joni> and we had a max_nr of 1
[01:17:24] <alex_joni> maybe the new list expands the whole list when doing the calculations?
[01:17:40] <alex_joni> not sure if I'm making any sense at 4:30 am
[01:17:43] <alex_joni> :-/
[01:17:49] <jmkasunich> why are you awake?
[01:17:57] <alex_joni> building packages for dapper
[01:18:05] <cradek> you're our hero
[01:18:12] <cradek> mine anyway
[01:18:17] <alex_joni> don't really want to stop now .. been doing it for too long now
[01:18:19] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:18:29] <jmkasunich> got for it - the all-nighter
[01:18:39] <alex_joni> that's common :)
[01:18:50] <jmkasunich> (I did one of those at the workshop, getting the toolchanger to run)
[01:19:01] <alex_joni> argh.. another fail from rtai
[01:19:03] <jmkasunich> its the first time anybody saw me there in the morning ;-)
[01:24:18] <alex_joni> darn.. always thought the kernel is harder to do than rtai
[01:24:43] <cradek> they're both terrible
[01:24:51] <alex_joni> the kernel worked on the 3rd attempt.. but rtai is up to #15 or so
[01:25:43] <alex_joni> if anybody DARES to say emc2 is hard to compile.. I'll smack him silly with make-kpkg
[01:25:51] <cradek> me too
[01:26:01] <cradek> but you can go first
[01:26:13] <alex_joni> ok, you can take dh_make :)
[01:26:32] <jmkasunich> I just recently closed a bugreport/feature request from somebody who wanted emc RPMs for FC
[01:26:47] <alex_joni> did they send a spec?
[01:27:14] <jmkasunich> I said (in not the exact words) "when you have the RT patched kernel for FC, then we'll think about RPMs"
[01:27:59] <cradek> that part probably would not be too hard, but I've made custom kernel rpms and it's harder still than debian
[01:28:06] <alex_joni> dpkg -i rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma_3.3-1+aj2_i386.deb
[01:28:10] <alex_joni> worked :)
[01:28:13] <cradek> yay
[01:28:23] <jmkasunich> yay!
[01:28:41] <alex_joni> wonder if it works :-?
[01:28:43] <cradek> so should I install dapper now?
[01:28:55] <cradek> you should use dpkg -c to compare the file lists
[01:28:58] <cradek> look for obvious things missing
[01:29:12] <cradek> it's easy to miss whole bunches of files
[01:30:10] <cradek> jmkasunich: I thought you found needle thrust bearings on mcmaster for 1/4" shafts - I can only find smallest 1/2
[01:30:46] <jmkasunich> lemme check
[01:31:03] <alex_joni> RTAI Testsuite - KERNEL latency (all data in nanoseconds)
[01:31:03] <alex_joni> RTH| lat min| ovl min| lat avg| lat max| ovl max| overruns
[01:31:03] <alex_joni> RTD| -1333| -1333| -275| 2830| 2830| 0
[01:31:03] <alex_joni> RTD| -1374| -1374| -291| 2885| 2885| 0
[01:31:03] <alex_joni> RTD| -1351| -1374| -292| 2775| 2885| 0
[01:31:05] <alex_joni> YAY
[01:31:13] <cradek> I thought about using a timken on the front and a needle thrust on the back, but the timken are also too big
[01:31:16] <cradek> alex_joni: YAY!
[01:31:56] <alex_joni> ok, emc2 next :)
[01:34:05] <jmkasunich> strange, now I can't find them either
[01:34:38] <jmkasunich> they have 6 and 7mm, but they're $9.47 instead of a couple bucks
[01:35:25] <cradek> the sucky part is I know there are some small ones around here somewhere, it's just impossible to know where
[01:36:32] <cradek> they have the ball thrust bearings that small, but two of those would add up to too much thickness
[01:36:44] <jmkasunich> ok, I was just about to point those out
[01:37:04] <jmkasunich> there are the $9 ones and cheap ones
[01:37:11] <cradek> yeah
[01:37:19] <jmkasunich> the cheap ones are 0.193 thick, thats too much?
[01:37:52] <cradek> too much if I want two (front and back) plus something springy
[01:38:08] <cradek> not sure what I want
[01:38:13] <jmkasunich> on one side, you have a knob, right?
[01:38:23] <jmkasunich> that side could use a larger diameter bearing I think
[01:38:24] <cradek> currently yes
[01:38:57] <alex_joni> juve@ubuntu:~/emc2/src$ make
[01:38:58] <alex_joni> make: Failed to remake makefile `Makefile'.
[01:39:01] <alex_joni> any idea?
[01:39:16] <alex_joni> gcc=4.0
[01:39:22] <cradek> that's probably the dep generating rule
[01:39:50] <jmkasunich> http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/Worm02.jpg
[01:40:03] <alex_joni> ifeq ($(DEPSTYLE),gcc3) ?
[01:40:07] <jmkasunich> cradek: pic of a bearing significantly larger than the shaft
[01:40:45] <cradek> jmkasunich: I see
[01:40:58] <jmkasunich> dunno if you could do something like that
[01:41:12] <jmkasunich> I just got a purchase order to make two more of those jigs
[01:41:18] <cradek> alex_joni: version>2 gives DEPSTYLE=gcc3
[01:41:26] <jmkasunich> comes under the heading of "mixed feelings"
[01:41:30] <cradek> you'll be busy again
[01:41:33] <cradek> yeah I understand that
[01:41:36] <jmkasunich> nice cash for the jigs, but lots of work
[01:41:57] <cradek> the problem with non-cnc is the subsequent parts don't get much easier
[01:42:03] <cradek> (or faster)
[01:42:16] <jmkasunich> those things wouldn't benefit much from CNC anyway
[01:42:31] <jmkasunich> lots of different parts, lots of different setups
[01:43:24] <alex_joni> cradek: sorry.. had to run a make clean, now it seems to be depending
[01:43:56] <jmkasunich> was the previous make with a differnet compiler?
[01:44:05] <alex_joni> yeah.. different everything
[01:44:21] <alex_joni> kernel, rtai, OS, compiler, hdd
[01:44:40] <alex_joni> only same PC.. as if that would matter
[01:49:19] <alex_joni> whoa!!! emc2 is running :)
[01:49:33] <cradek> YAY
[01:49:39] <cradek> you're a genius to do that in one day
[01:49:44] <alex_joni> I only get one troublesome thing..
[01:49:56] <alex_joni> while compiling emc2:
[01:49:57] <fenn> cradek: just get two angular contact bearings
[01:50:11] <alex_joni> *** Warning: "rt_task_wait_period" [/home/juve/emc2/src/rtapi.ko] undefined!
[01:50:11] <alex_joni> *** Warning: "rt_sem_wait" [/home/juve/emc2/src/rtapi.ko] undefined!
[01:50:11] <alex_joni> *** Warning: "rt_sem_delete" [/home/juve/emc2/src/rtapi.ko] undefined!
[01:50:11] <alex_joni> *** Warning: "rt_task_init_cpuid" [/home/juve/emc2/src/rtapi.ko] undefined!
[01:50:11] <alex_joni> *** Warning: "rt_set_periodic_mode" [/home/juve/emc2/src/rtapi.ko] undefined!
[01:50:22] <fenn> its hardly under any load at all, i bet skate bearings would work fine (its whats on my lathe)
[01:50:31] <jmkasunich> I thought you said it was running?
[01:50:40] <alex_joni> yeah.. it's running nicely
[01:50:50] <alex_joni> but I noticed the warnings while compiling
[01:51:07] <cradek> I had warnings like that too for a while, I wish I could remember what got rid of them
[01:51:07] <alex_joni> hint: only warnings, not errors
[01:51:12] <cradek> the empty Modules.symvers maybe?
[01:51:14] <jmkasunich> duh
[01:51:26] <alex_joni> cradek: proably!?
[01:51:37] <cradek> you don't have that?
[01:52:01] <cradek> fenn: you mean timken roller bearings?
[01:52:09] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: reminds me.. do you know why programmers smoke?
[01:52:13] <alex_joni> cradek: it's there..
[01:52:19] <cradek> hmm
[01:52:30] <jmkasunich> alex_joni, no, why?
[01:52:56] <alex_joni> because on the ciggarette packs there is "warning: causes lung cancer.."
[01:53:09] <alex_joni> if it would say "error: ..." then none would smoke :)
[01:53:10] <fenn> cradek: no, its the same idea, but with ball bearings
[01:53:19] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:53:23] <fenn> cradek: they are usually much cheaper and smaller than timken
[01:53:39] <jmkasunich> smaller anyway
[01:54:09] <fenn> well they ought to be cheaper, i guess its how much you're willing to pay for them though
[01:55:07] <alex_joni> cradek: how do I make a new deb?
[01:55:14] <alex_joni> emc2 deb I mean..
[01:55:43] <cradek> dpkg-buildpackage
[01:56:02] <alex_joni> shouldn't I use 'sudo pbuilder create ...' ?
[01:56:28] <cradek> but there are a couple things I have under debian/ that are not in cvs (the gnome menu entry stuff)
[01:56:40] <cradek> I don't know what pbuilder is
[01:56:48] <alex_joni> jepler put that into the wiki
[01:59:46] <A-L-P-H-A> aj, oh I see.
[01:59:59] <alex_joni> A-L-P-H-A: what do you see?
[02:00:23] <A-L-P-H-A> aj, RTAI, kernal, debs
[02:00:55] <alex_joni> that was 5 rtai's ago :)
[02:01:04] <A-L-P-H-A> whatever makes ubuntu work and do EMC out of the box, I'm happy.
[02:01:10] <alex_joni> wonder if units can convert rtai's to hours..
[02:01:25] <A-L-P-H-A> aj, let me know when a new liveCD comes up for emc.
[02:01:37] <A-L-P-H-A> or should I just use that liveCD, and update it?
[02:01:40] <alex_joni> keep using the old one for a while
[02:01:42] <cradek> "comes up"?
[02:01:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hasn't figured out how dapper works
[02:01:57] <cradek> I'm watering it but it's not working
[02:02:09] <cradek> maybe it's not getting enough sun
[02:02:13] <A-L-P-H-A> cradek. oh. you. are. so. clever.
[02:02:19] <alex_joni> it seems the dapper cd is a live cd from which you can install too
[02:02:24] <cradek> thanks, that's what my mom used to say too
[02:02:28] <alex_joni> but it doesn't use udeb anymore
[02:02:35] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, yeah, I now... I installed it on my laptop last night
[02:02:46] <alex_joni> h_movefiles: debian/tmp/usr/share/applications/emc2.desktop not found (supposed to put it in emc2)
[02:02:48] <A-L-P-H-A> cradek, when she packed you your lunch, and sent you on the short bus.
[02:02:49] <alex_joni> dh_movefiles: debian/tmp/usr/share/pixmaps/emc2icon.png not found (supposed to put it in emc2)
[02:02:52] <alex_joni> dh_movefiles: debian/tmp/etc/udev/rules.d/emc2.rules not found (supposed to put it in emc2)
[02:03:01] <cradek> alex_joni: just a sec
[02:03:23] <alex_joni> getting the source now..
[02:03:29] <alex_joni> it should be there.. right?
[02:03:39] <cradek> yeah true
[02:03:40] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/extras.tar.gz
[02:03:45] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, I like ubuntu a lot.
[02:03:45] <cradek> or untar this in debian/
[02:03:53] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm thinking of installing it on my workstation now.
[02:03:58] <A-L-P-H-A> <yikes>
[02:09:18] <alex_joni> dh_movefiles: debian/tmp/usr/realtime-2.6.12-magma/modules/emc2/timedelay.ko not found (supposed to put it in emc2)
[02:10:01] <cradek> uh-oh
[02:10:08] <alex_joni> duh.. 12 not 15
[02:10:15] <alex_joni> need to update the emc2.files
[02:10:23] <cradek> oh!
[02:11:40] <alex_joni> I've been meaning to ask you.. how do you set up ccache ?
[02:11:52] <cradek> apt-get install ccache
[02:11:59] <alex_joni> did that
[02:12:07] <cradek> then make symlinks in your path gcc -> ccache, gcc-4.0 -> ccache etc.
[02:12:16] <alex_joni> aha
[02:12:35] <cradek> any command used to invoke a compiler should point to ccache
[02:12:49] <cradek> of course you have to put that in your path first
[02:13:12] <cradek> aha look at /usr/lib/ccache
[02:13:47] <cradek> just put that in your path first
[02:13:52] <alex_joni> right
[02:14:08] <alex_joni> export PATH=/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH ?
[02:14:22] <cradek> yes
[02:14:52] <alex_joni> -rw-r--r-- 1 juve juve 362 2006-06-04 05:14 emc2_2.0.0.dsc
[02:15:01] <alex_joni> -rw-r--r-- 1 juve juve 1647398 2006-06-04 05:17 emc2_2.0.0_i386.deb
[02:15:13] <cradek> yay!
[02:15:14] <alex_joni> -rw-r--r-- 1 juve juve 3865440 2006-06-04 05:14 emc2_2.0.0.tar.gz
[02:15:24] <alex_joni> -rw-r--r-- 1 juve juve 144712 2006-06-04 05:17 emc2-dev_2.0.0_i386.deb
[02:15:37] <cradek> the tar looks too big - maybe it's not cleaned (has objects inside)
[02:18:27] <alex_joni> yup.. seems like that
[02:21:03] <alex_joni> but.. may I tell you a alittle secret?
[02:21:27] <alex_joni> seems that yours are just as big :)
[02:21:28] <cradek> sure, but it won't be a secret anymore
[02:21:35] <cradek> haha
[02:21:53] <cradek> hmm
[02:22:00] <cradek> well it rebuilds ok :-)
[02:22:07] <alex_joni> quite consistently
[02:22:27] <cradek> the gpl says the user has to be able to rebuild it, not that it has to be free of unnecessary things
[02:22:38] <alex_joni> lol
[02:22:38] <alex_joni> right
[02:22:45] <cradek> I could have sworn I fixed that though
[02:22:59] <alex_joni> I wasw wondering.. did you sign the kernel packages ?
[02:23:20] <cradek> I quit signing the individual packages because it doesn't seem to be used for anything
[02:23:25] <cradek> I do sign the whole repository though
[02:23:33] <alex_joni> oh, so only the rep..
[02:23:43] <cradek> it will complain to the user otherwise
[02:23:53] <Jymmm> anyone remember the link to the robot arm that was a roller coaster ride?
[02:30:00] <A-L-P-H-A> you know I think my eye sight has been getting better since I stopped going to school, and using a CRT monitor.
[02:34:50] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A I thought you had 3 LCD's ?
[02:35:18] <alex_joni> * alex_joni finally goes to bed
[02:35:24] <alex_joni> night all
[02:35:28] <Jymmm> alex_joni wheres that video?
[02:35:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I stopped using the CRTS
[02:35:46] <A-L-P-H-A> I guess there shouldn't be that comma
[02:35:52] <A-L-P-H-A> what video?
[02:35:58] <Jymmm> the robot ride
[02:36:34] <Jymmm> they had a ride at a convention that was really a robot but acted like a roller coaster.
[02:36:49] <alex_joni> oh.. robocoaster
[02:36:53] <Jymmm> yeah
[02:37:03] <alex_joni> I think it was ABB.. google it :)
[02:37:45] <Jymmm> ty, G'night alex_joni
[02:40:23] <asdf23r> asdf23r is now known as A-L-P-H-A
[03:03:09] <a-l-p-h-a-2> ahhhh.
[03:03:17] <a-l-p-h-a-2> so nice to be in here again... on the ubuntu laptop
[03:04:59] <a-l-p-h-a-2> who's on ubuntu? what's the easiest/safest way to get gaim 2.0b3?
[03:06:14] <Jymmm> apt-get install ???
[03:06:55] <A-L-P-H-A> not 2.0b3
[03:16:23] <A-L-P-H-A> autopackage... :D
[03:35:11] <A-L-P-H-A-3> oh... I'm 3 now
[03:35:12] <A-L-P-H-A-3> hmm.
[03:39:16] <asdfqwega> man, do I ever have a sick, twisted, love affair with linux
[03:39:38] <asdfqwega> Now, I'm learning about using kernel logs
[03:40:26] <asdfqwega> why? because I want to be able to use the USBFS_SNOOP capability to reverse-engineer a USB-wifi adapter
[03:41:30] <asdfqwega> AND I'm still trying to find information on making kernel-module packages in debian
[03:42:25] <asdfqwega> I *was* hoping to find something in documentation, but it looks like I'm going to have to dissect a debian module source package to find out
[03:42:57] <asdfqwega> It's too bad I don't get paid for this :(
[03:52:33] <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega... heh.
[03:52:46] <A-L-P-H-A> i just started to really look at linux again, after years apart from it
[03:52:52] <A-L-P-H-A> ubuntu is so clean.
[04:14:22] <asdfqwega> [sighs] dang it
[04:14:28] <asdfqwega> I can make a kernel package
[04:14:38] <asdfqwega> I can make a ndiswrappers package
[04:14:56] <asdfqwega> I *want* to make a rtai-modules package
[04:17:55] <Jymmm> Awe fuck...
[04:18:31] <Jymmm> My gf HAD to ask to look at the mouse traps I bought... now she's upset.
[04:19:10] <Jymmm> I've been regreting this day for a week now.
[04:19:57] <asdfqwega> Traps full of dead rats?
[04:20:05] <asdfqwega> ...rotting dead rats?
[04:20:19] <Jymmm> No, I just bought them today.
[04:20:36] <asdfqwega> What, they're not 'humane' enough?
[04:20:58] <Jymmm> it's no the humane part, it's the taking of a life part.
[04:21:17] <asdfqwega> O-kay...
[04:21:22] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm... poison is worse.
[04:21:28] <A-L-P-H-A> at least this way it's self contained.
[04:21:32] <A-L-P-H-A> or get yourself a FAST cat.
[04:21:46] <Jymmm> wouldn't matter how it was done, just that' it's being done.
[04:21:48] <A-L-P-H-A> where it'd be out and about, leaving your nice dead rat presents as gifts.
[04:21:51] <asdfqwega> I'm more in favor of the 're-used neon sign transformer' approach, myself
[04:22:11] <A-L-P-H-A> ever seen a cat in action killing mice.
[04:22:18] <Jymmm> She'd prefer catch and release in the woods somewhere approach
[04:22:20] <A-L-P-H-A> they're fast, and they play with the mouse if they're bored.
[04:22:31] <A-L-P-H-A> I can understand that for mice.
[04:22:33] <A-L-P-H-A> but not rats
[04:22:33] <asdfqwega> I'd be shopping for a new girlfriend
[04:22:36] <Jymmm> cats are good for one thing, dog food.
[04:22:47] <A-L-P-H-A> I prefer fish.
[04:22:54] <A-L-P-H-A> nice an easy...
[04:23:02] <A-L-P-H-A> or a plant.
[04:23:08] <Jymmm> asdfqwega signle huh?
[04:23:15] <asdfqwega> Yes
[04:23:18] <A-L-P-H-A> cactii
[04:23:48] <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega go to HK... www.best161.com I think is the website
[04:24:15] <asdfqwega> And why am I still single? Because most women (and people in general) are noodle-brains that think like your GF
[04:24:38] <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega, "noodle-brains"?
[04:24:41] <A-L-P-H-A> what's that mean?
[04:27:38] <asdfqwega> Huh...I tried googling 'noodle-brain' to see if it would come up with something synonymous with stupid - it seems someone made a song titled 'Noodle-brain'
[04:27:51] <A-L-P-H-A> i see.
[04:28:30] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm... how about, if she likes the rats lives so much, you'll go get a humane trap, and get her to release them.
[04:29:51] <asdfqwega> Let her reach in bare-handed to get them out of the trap
[04:30:10] <A-L-P-H-A> you reach in from the tail end, to pull them out by the tail.
[04:30:26] <A-L-P-H-A> if they're mice, you could just hold them by the tail, and neck, and pull.
[04:30:33] <A-L-P-H-A> kills them by breaking their necks.
[04:30:38] <A-L-P-H-A> I dont know about rats though.
[04:36:32] <asdfqwega> best161 - server not found
[04:36:49] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[04:37:49] <A-L-P-H-A> 161sex.com instead...
[04:37:54] <asdfqwega> Is it a mail-oder bride site?
[04:37:59] <A-L-P-H-A> it's just listing of prostitutes in HK.
[04:38:24] <asdfqwega> Well, that does me little good here in the middle of OHIO :/
[04:39:08] <asdfqwega> I live a little bit further into the middle of nowhere than anyone really wants to be
[04:39:23] <A-L-P-H-A> you have corn. :)
[04:39:26] <A-L-P-H-A> and wheat.
[04:39:45] <asdfqwega> The RABBITS carry backpacks
[04:40:34] <A-L-P-H-A> man. I definitely should not go to HK.
[04:40:48] <asdfqwega> Why is that?
[04:41:14] <A-L-P-H-A> there's atleast a whore in every building essentially.
[04:42:35] <asdfqwega> That's not new - the town nearest me is that same way - but they're not professional
[04:43:11] <A-L-P-H-A> you know this cause?
[04:43:13] <A-L-P-H-A> ;)
[04:44:20] <asdfqwega> I learn vicariously from the mistakes of others - and on rare occasions do a bit of people-watching
[04:44:53] <A-L-P-H-A> so what you're saying is that you're freaky, and like to watch people, a voyeur?
[04:45:15] <asdfqwega> No - I'm an amateur anthopologist
[04:45:34] <A-L-P-H-A> there's an "R" in that word. :)
[04:46:21] <asdfqwega> It's late, my eyes are losing focua - and I've got x-chat configured to that my test is gray on black
[04:46:53] <A-L-P-H-A> You'll go blind if you continue. :)
[04:47:10] <A-L-P-H-A> Is ohio flat?
[04:47:11] <asdfqwega> Sifting through documentation is hard work
[04:47:15] <asdfqwega> No
[04:48:08] <asdfqwega> Some is flat, then there's the terminal moraine
[04:50:03] <A-L-P-H-A> ?
[04:50:10] <A-L-P-H-A> terminal moraine?
[04:50:56] <asdfqwega> hm, wrong spelling?
[04:51:18] <asdfqwega> morrain, can't remember which
[04:52:42] <asdfqwega> it's been years since I've used that term
[04:53:13] <A-L-P-H-A> I see. http://www.google.ca/search?q=define%3A+terminal+moraine&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
[05:27:20] <dmessier> oh well they are married now.... not my fault
[05:53:18] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier... what's up?
[07:11:37] <lester_> Anybody awake? I am just having a look at EMC2 and trying to work out what the maximum pulse rate is for a simple parallel port stepper motor connection?
[07:35:38] <asdfqwega> HOLY SMOKES
[07:35:58] <asdfqwega> I've just successfully made a rtai-modules .deb file
[07:36:14] <asdfqwega> I....I think I'm gonna cry
[07:38:26] <asdfqwega> For those viewers at home, what I did was this:
[07:38:46] <asdfqwega> Paul's rtai-source wouldn't work for me
[07:42:21] <asdfqwega> and I copied the 'debian' subdir from paul's rtai-source over the the 'magma' dir
[07:42:51] <asdfqwega> erased the old /usr/src/modules/rtai, and renamed 'magma' to 'rtai'
[07:44:23] <asdfqwega> Reason for this? Paul's rtai-source was updated from the rtai-3.3 tarball - and apparently it had some errors, AND it doesn't seem to like gcc > 2.95 - although I couldn't get it to compile with that, either
[07:45:33] <asdfqwega> The rtai-magma from CVS has at least been updated recently, and I briefly saw a mention on freshmeat.net that rtai would now work with gcc 4.0
[07:46:26] <asdfqwega> Paul's debian/rules has a little hack to make everything install into debian standard directories - which I still need to tweak
[07:47:29] <asdfqwega> but at least now I can, in /usr/src/linux: make-kpkg --revision 0.0.1 modules_image --added-modules rtai
[07:47:50] <asdfqwega> and bingo! it makes a .deb
[07:48:11] <asdfqwega> I'm still tweaking the debian/rules
[07:49:07] <asdfqwega> so once I get that right, we'll see if I can install it on my cnc-machine, and the modules will work
[07:53:15] <asdfqwee> grumblegrumble IRC can't stay connected...
[07:57:48] <asdfqwee> if I could afford it, I'd get one of the new 4x4 AMD systems - dual socket dual-cores, with the low-wattage Opterons, just for compiling kernels
[07:59:59] <asdfqwee> as it is, I may be able to put three AMD XP systems up using distcc...
[09:42:28] <robin_sz> meep!
[09:45:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi
[10:04:47] <robin_sz> hmmm
[10:05:02] <robin_sz> connection to the net via GPRS does sucketh so
[11:16:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi again
[11:58:19] <les_w> morning
[12:18:00] <etla> hi
[12:19:08] <etla> -
[14:50:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> active day today eh?
[15:00:05] <giacus> sad day :(
[15:00:24] <giacus> everybody got back to home
[15:02:20] <A-L-P-H-A-2> I have a duplicate entry in my Applications -> Internet menu... how do I remove one of the extra entries?
[15:02:50] <giacus> hi A-L-P-H-A-2
[15:04:07] <giacus> A-L-P-H-A-2: what distro and wm ?
[15:04:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> got back t home?
[15:04:27] <giacus> debian use update-menu for some wm
[15:04:38] <giacus> ubuntu maybe to ..
[15:05:04] <giacus> menu - provides update-menus functions for some applications
[15:05:17] <giacus> Lerneaen_Hydra: :)
[15:05:56] <giacus> A-L-P-H-A-2: usually is not a good idea to manually edit menu entries
[15:06:24] <A-L-P-H-A-2> giacus: ubuntu, gnome
[15:06:24] <giacus> if you don't want to do it forever*
[15:06:32] <giacus> try that
[15:06:48] <giacus> I write up ..
[15:07:21] <A-L-P-H-A-2> what's the command?
[15:07:29] <giacus> apt-cache search menu
[15:07:34] <giacus> apt-get install menu
[15:07:39] <giacus> menu-updates
[15:07:53] <giacus> don't know if work for sure for all WM
[15:07:57] <giacus> it should
[15:08:15] <A-L-P-H-A-2> thanks
[15:08:46] <giacus> sorry :
[15:08:49] <giacus> was update-menus
[15:08:56] <giacus> the right command
[15:09:03] <giacus> I do not use it in Ion3
[15:09:10] <A-L-P-H-A-2> no... but I found it in the menus
[15:09:15] <A-L-P-H-A-2> alacarte menu editor
[15:09:28] <giacus> I just press F-key menu then use tab completation
[15:09:43] <giacus> A-L-P-H-A-2: that should work manually ..
[15:10:02] <A-L-P-H-A-2> one was are /usr/bin/gaim, and the other command was just "gaim".
[15:10:02] <giacus> update-menu should be better I guess
[15:10:06] <A-L-P-H-A-2> odd.
[15:10:37] <giacus> consider to switch to a cool WM ..
[15:10:48] <A-L-P-H-A-2> giacus: thanks.
[15:10:56] <giacus> Fluxbox, Ion3 , Evilwm,
[15:11:04] <A-L-P-H-A-2> got screenshots of them?
[15:11:19] <giacus> every of that has is website
[15:11:32] <giacus> fluxbox should be good to start
[15:11:34] <giacus> and cool
[15:11:56] <giacus> http://fluxbox.sourceforge.net/
[15:12:16] <giacus> http://fluxbox.sourceforge.net/screenshots-dev.php
[15:12:57] <giacus> it is also light and good for older pc
[15:13:14] <giacus> the most advanced I found is Ion3
[15:13:24] <giacus> but difficult to learn
[15:13:48] <giacus> improving keyboard at 100%
[15:14:02] <A-L-P-H-A-2> I just said ion3
[15:14:47] <giacus> http://www.giacus.org/files/shot3.png
[15:15:23] <giacus> you can install it by apt
[15:15:36] <giacus> brb
[15:17:27] <fenn> zealot
[15:17:31] <A-L-P-H-A-2> fluxbox I like
[15:17:57] <A-L-P-H-A-2> very mac like
[15:17:59] <A-L-P-H-A-2> :/
[15:18:41] <fenn> i have 6 virtual desktops crammed full of like 30 windows each
[15:19:11] <A-L-P-H-A-2> aj had the command to install it last time
[15:25:19] <A-L-P-H-A-2> hey got and idea
[15:25:23] <A-L-P-H-A-2> oops wrong chan
[15:25:28] <A-L-P-H-A-2> but I'll type it in here anyways
[15:26:00] <A-L-P-H-A-2> is there a way to put a splice into a wall transformer to the device, to supply it with a brownout/blackout protection for a few seconds at least...
[15:26:11] <A-L-P-H-A-2> I want to put a small UPS to my cablemodem and router.
[15:26:18] <fenn> yes its called a "battery"
[15:27:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which voltage does the device run at? is it DC or AC?
[15:27:31] <A-L-P-H-A-2> fenn: yeah... but I don't want it to run on the battery when there is normal power
[15:27:33] <A-L-P-H-A-2> DC
[15:27:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how much power does the wall trans. give and how much does the appliance take?
[15:28:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (how much headroom)
[15:28:17] <A-L-P-H-A-2> transformer... <1amp... I don't know how much the device takes.
[15:28:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you could have a supercap
[15:28:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it would give a few ms at least
[15:29:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or rather, 100-s of ms
[15:29:15] <A-L-P-H-A-2> hmm... I was hoping for a few seconds, till power goes back one...
[15:29:17] <fenn> a supercap would be ugly at startup
[15:29:21] <A-L-P-H-A-2> like in lightning strikes, or something
[15:29:28] <fenn> i guess you only really have to worry about that once though
[15:29:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> fenn: you'd need a resistor/current limiter (big inductor) or something
[15:29:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hence my question of the headroom ;)
[15:30:34] <jmkasunich> diode and resistor solves the startup thing
[15:31:15] <jmkasunich> diode lets the supercap discharge into the device, but not charge... the resistor bypasses the diode to slowly charge the cap
[15:32:05] <jmkasunich> use a schottky diode to minimize the voltage drop
[15:36:36] <jepler> like this? http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/capacitor-backup.png
[15:37:16] <jmkasunich> yeah (I assume the arrow pointing up is "from supply")
[15:37:31] <jepler> yes (it's the "V+" symbol of eagle)
[15:37:43] <A-L-P-H-A-2> looking
[15:38:00] <A-L-P-H-A-2> oh
[15:38:13] <jmkasunich> this assumes that the wall-wart doesn't become a load when unpowered
[15:38:43] <jmkasunich> if its just an unregulated supply, (ransformer, diodes, cap) then it will be fine
[15:39:02] <jmkasunich> if its regulated, you have a couple potential problems
[15:39:08] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[15:39:14] <A-L-P-H-A> so probably best to just buy a UPS.
[15:39:17] <jmkasunich> 1) if its regulated, the diode drop is more likely to cause problems
[15:39:17] <A-L-P-H-A> when they're on sale.
[15:39:46] <jmkasunich> the smallest UPS you can buy is probably about 10-50 times bigger than is needed for a router
[15:40:15] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah... I know... hence why I was hoping to be able to build one out of two AA with a DCDC voltage upper.
[15:40:46] <jmkasunich> what is the actual voltage going from the wart to the device?
[15:40:55] <jmkasunich> (probably printed on the wart or device or both)
[15:40:55] <A-L-P-H-A> let me go look and write them down.
[15:42:41] <A-L-P-H-A> well, the warts where these
[15:43:00] <A-L-P-H-A> 9Vdc / 1amp (router). Cablemodem was 12VDC / 750ma
[15:44:22] <jmkasunich> the router is probably unregulated, with an internal regulator that makes 5V from it
[15:45:14] <jmkasunich> cablemodem is harder to tell, might be regulated 12 used by some of the modem circuits, and stepped down to 5 for the rest, or might just be unregulated
[15:45:44] <jmkasunich> if its unregulated thats good, because your backup doesn't need to supply the exact voltage
[15:45:55] <jmkasunich> of course, 2 different voltages complicates things
[15:49:27] <jepler> the typical "supercap" voltage rating is <=5V, so that's a complication too
[15:49:39] <jmkasunich> yeah, you'd need multiple ones in series
[15:50:07] <jmkasunich> a stack of rechargable batteries in series might be cheaper
[15:50:36] <jmkasunich> size the resistor to provide a trickle charge only (probably a mA or less) so you don't overcharge them
[15:53:08] <jepler> seems like it'll take a long time to charge a modern NiMH cell that way -- the AAs are 2000+ mAh
[15:53:25] <jmkasunich> charge them conventionally first
[15:53:42] <jmkasunich> the trickle is just to overcome self-discharge
[15:54:17] <jmkasunich> I don't know what the self discharge rate is, maybe its more like a several mA
[15:56:46] <alex_joni> morning
[15:56:58] <jmkasunich> hi aledx
[15:57:01] <jmkasunich> hi alex
[15:57:02] <alex_joni> hi john
[16:00:27] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is having some issues
[16:00:37] <jmkasunich> dapper issues?
[16:00:44] <alex_joni> emc2 on dapper .. yeah
[16:00:56] <jmkasunich> alex_joni is a brave man
[16:01:11] <alex_joni> I think emc_module_helper issues
[16:01:26] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: emc2 from CVS (run-in-place) works perfectly
[16:01:39] <jmkasunich> but installed doesn't?
[16:02:53] <alex_joni> not really..
[16:03:05] <alex_joni> trying to figure out what to paste here :)
[16:03:48] <alex_joni> + echo 'Loading Real Time OS, RTAPI, and HAL_LIB modules'
[16:03:48] <alex_joni> + /etc/init.d/realtime start
[16:03:48] <alex_joni> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_hal.ko': -1 File exists
[16:03:51] <alex_joni> /usr/bin/emc_module_helper: Invalid usage with args: insert /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_sched.ko
[16:03:55] <alex_joni> Usage: /usr/bin/emc_module_helper insert /path/to/module.ext [param1=value1 ...]
[16:04:34] <alex_joni> oh.. I think I see.. rtai_sched is not part of emc_module_helper's list?
[16:04:40] <jmkasunich> does rtai_sched appear in the whitelist?
[16:05:26] <jepler> I have rtai_sched in my whitelist
[16:05:38] <alex_joni> same message on removal:
[16:05:41] <alex_joni> /usr/bin/emc_module_helper: Invalid usage with args: remove rtai_sched
[16:05:45] <alex_joni> jepler: on 2.0.0 ?
[16:05:53] <alex_joni> I built the release for debs
[16:05:57] <jepler> oh, I don't know about 2.0.0
[16:06:02] <jepler> who uses that old thing anymore?
[16:06:21] <jmkasunich> is 2.0.1 out yet?
[16:06:27] <alex_joni> not yet
[16:06:31] <alex_joni> jepler: I see it in the list
[16:08:26] <alex_joni> the odd thing is I get an Invalid usage with args
[16:09:20] <jmkasunich> what about the path?
[16:09:40] <jmkasunich> module-helper prints out a long error message describing exactly what it expects to see
[16:09:46] <jmkasunich> compare that to the arg printed
[16:11:13] <alex_joni> juve@ubuntu:~$ /usr/bin/emc_module_helper insert /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_sched.ko
[16:11:16] <alex_joni> /usr/bin/emc_module_helper: Invalid usage with args: insert /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_sched.ko
[16:11:50] <alex_joni> I see NO reason for that to fail
[16:11:55] <alex_joni> or to give that error message
[16:12:27] <jepler> so the path is listed under "the path starts with one of", and the module name is listed under "where module is one of"?
[16:13:55] <alex_joni> the module is not listed in the message, but I see it in the whitelist int he source (I think you or cradek recently increased the printed list)
[16:14:33] <jmkasunich> are you sure you are looking at the same version you are running?
[16:14:46] <jmkasunich> the printed list is generated directly from the whitelist
[16:14:56] <jmkasunich> if its in the source it should be in the error message
[16:15:21] <alex_joni> hmm.. this might be something..
[16:15:42] <alex_joni> I was looking at the version that I checked out with -rRELEASE_2_0_0
[16:16:04] <giacus> hi all
[16:16:08] <alex_joni> duh.. no I wasn't
[16:16:14] <alex_joni> sorry :)
[16:16:24] <jepler> I hate stupid users who can't read the screen
[16:16:37] <alex_joni> sod off .. had a long night
[16:17:04] <jepler> sorry. t'was a joke
[16:17:48] <alex_joni> should /usr/realtime catch on /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma ?
[16:18:05] <jepler> yes
[16:18:28] <alex_joni> it doesn't..
[16:19:32] <jepler> the printed message says "/usr/realtime" on my system, and the actual directory is /usr/realtime-2.6.12-magma
[16:20:13] <jmkasunich> isn't /usr/realtime supposed to be a symlink to /usr/realtime-`uname -r` ?
[16:20:32] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: not that I know
[16:20:47] <alex_joni> jepler: odd.. wonder why it's not working..
[16:21:13] <A-L-P-H-A> sooo hungry
[16:21:17] <jepler> jmkasunich: I don't have that symlink on my system
[16:22:00] <giacus> talking about a .deb package ?
[16:22:35] <jmkasunich> nor do I, I was confused
[16:24:09] <alex_joni> giacus: dapper packages
[16:26:21] <alex_joni> odd.. I'll look later.. busy for a while :/
[16:26:45] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: cradek made a dapper repository with the packages I made
[16:26:58] <alex_joni> bbl
[16:36:32] <alex_joni> jepler: still there?
[16:36:49] <alex_joni> I see it's failing just after the first check_whitelist() check
[16:37:19] <alex_joni> never gets to the second one, nor the third one (which is the path checking)
[16:39:14] <A-L-P-H-A> crazy. http://www.dansdata.com/diyups.htm
[16:43:15] <A-L-P-H-A> http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/emergencypowersources/ht/ht_aqups.htm hmm
[16:43:24] <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder if I still have my old old old UPS.
[16:45:59] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/ (scope_disp.c scope_usr.h):
[16:45:59] <CIA-8> use a different color for each trace, and brighten it to show the selected trace
[16:45:59] <CIA-8> draw a "baseline" which shows where 0 is on the selected trace
[16:45:59] <CIA-8> when available, double-buffer the trace display
[16:46:27] <jmkasunich> jepler, THANK YOU!
[16:46:53] <jmkasunich> that has been on my "would be nice" list for years
[16:47:00] <jepler> jmkasunich: the "double buffering"?
[16:47:03] <jepler> jmkasunich: that was easy
[16:47:07] <jmkasunich> the colors
[16:47:24] <jepler> jmkasunich: oh, well, they're poorly-chosen colors, but at least they're different from one another
[16:47:26] <jmkasunich> you probably even saw some stub code in there that was intended for colors
[16:48:45] <jmkasunich> what does double buffering mean from a user persepective?
[16:49:03] <jmkasunich> I thought the old traces remained on-screen until the new are available anyway?
[16:49:05] <jepler> jmkasunich: you know how the display flickers when you move a trace up/down? It no longer flickers.
[16:49:16] <jmkasunich> oh, ok
[16:49:19] <jepler> jmkasunich: (that part only works when compiling with gtk2)
[16:49:50] <jepler> alex_joni: can you put the whole output of emc_module_helper insert ... in pastebin or something?
[16:52:00] <jepler> alex_joni: make sure you added "rtai_sched" before "rtai"
[16:52:11] <jmkasunich> ah, that...
[16:52:28] <jmkasunich> that warning should be in a comment
[16:54:00] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/module_helper/module_helper.c: warn of a common error made when expanding the list
[16:55:03] <jmkasunich> has anyone gotten emc-users or emc-dev list mail since yesterday?
[16:55:58] <giacus> yeah
[16:56:39] <jepler> From: "mac" <michaelc127@excite.com>
[16:56:39] <jepler> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 11:56:45 -0400 (EDT)
[16:56:39] <jepler> Subject: [Emc-users] CVS_HEAD and MotencLite problem...
[16:56:39] <jmkasunich> my last email from the lists was from "mac", subject "CVS_HEAD and MotencLite problem..."
[16:56:43] <jepler> this is the last one I got
[16:56:55] <jmkasunich> I replied to it yesterday, and the reply never showed up
[16:57:12] <jmkasunich> not in the archives either
[16:57:14] <jepler> while we're waiting for sourceforge to fix the lists, maybe you should send a copy direct to him
[16:57:30] <jmkasunich> I did
[16:57:41] <jmkasunich> I also re-sent to the list an hour or so ago
[16:58:00] <jmkasunich> it's not being held for moderation, I checked
[16:58:27] <jmkasunich> duh
[16:58:34] <jmkasunich> ( 2006-05-30 04:10:06 - Mailing List Service ) As of 2006-05-26 the migration of Mailing Lists to the new infrastructure has begun. Until complete (we'll update the site status when it is), list creation may be disabled and temporary downtimes may occur, and are anticipated. Mail, however, won't be lost.
[17:00:24] <jmkasunich> SF seems to have the reverse Midas touch latelky
[17:00:27] <jmkasunich> lately
[17:00:33] <jmkasunich> everything they touch turns to shit
[17:06:24] <jepler> jmkasunich: if I make halscope (user interface portion) use posemath, will you blow a gasket?
[17:06:34] <jmkasunich> yeah
[17:06:48] <jepler> jmkasunich: I want to add "click on a trace"
[17:06:50] <jmkasunich> I would like HAL to be stand-alonw
[17:07:01] <jmkasunich> how does posemath help that?
[17:07:10] <jepler> which involves computing whether the distance from the clicked point is within a threshhold of one of the lines for the trace
[17:07:17] <jepler> I've written it once in terms of posemath
[17:07:49] <jepler> dot product and magnitude, so it's easy to write without it
[17:08:41] <jmkasunich> s/blow a gasket/be less than thrilled/
[17:09:11] <jmkasunich> s/blow a gasket/be inclined to take the subset of posemath that is used and embedded it somewhere in halscope/
[17:09:21] <jepler> I'll just write dot() and mag() myself
[17:10:09] <jmkasunich> if using posemath is easier for you, go ahead, I'm thrilled that you are adding features to halscope, and not about to complain about details
[17:10:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's bad about posemath? more dependancies?
[17:11:27] <jmkasunich> yeah
[17:11:38] <jmkasunich> posemath is (incorrectly imo) part of libnml
[17:11:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and currently hal doesn't need anything else?
[17:12:07] <jmkasunich> I believe that HAL has applications beyond EMC itself, and would like it to be possible to build HAL without building EMC
[17:32:32] <K4ts> hello giacus
[17:38:13] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/scope_disp.c: scope traces can now be selected by clicking near them
[18:00:22] <robin_sz> coo.
[18:00:32] <jmkasunich> .ooc
[18:00:53] <robin_sz> would you believe it ... connected to the 'net via my linux laptop and a Nokia phone
[18:01:14] <jmkasunich> dern new-fangled contraptions
[18:01:31] <robin_sz> just plug it in, generated the right pppd and chat scripts
[18:01:52] <robin_sz> the USB hotplug thing just found it and sorted it
[18:02:30] <robin_sz> hey, I found someone with a toy you'd like
[18:03:10] <jmkasunich> ?
[18:03:24] <robin_sz> a "pistol" chambered in 30-06
[18:03:34] <jmkasunich> heh, no thanks
[18:03:38] <robin_sz> good to 1000yds
[18:03:58] <jmkasunich> I've read of a "pistol" chambered in .50 BMG
[18:04:03] <jmkasunich> dunno if it actually exists
[18:04:11] <robin_sz> yikes
[18:04:25] <jmkasunich> "for sale cheap, only fired once"
[18:04:30] <robin_sz> I know AMI do one .50 but its not BMG
[18:05:12] <jmkasunich> the indoor range I go to has a .50 pistol rental, $30 for rental and range time, and 5 rounds I think
[18:05:23] <jmkasunich> its a gimmick for people who want to say they've fired one
[18:05:40] <jmkasunich> dunno what the pistol is, .50 desert eagle or some big ass revolver
[18:05:44] <robin_sz> if its a AMI desert eagle, id say its worth a go ...
[18:05:50] <robin_sz> yeah
[18:06:01] <jmkasunich> I'm not into that kind of macho
[18:06:11] <robin_sz> friend had one in .44, I couldnt even cock the thing
[18:06:15] <robin_sz> nice engineering though
[18:06:29] <robin_sz> proper rotating lock bolt
[18:06:29] <jmkasunich> in fact, while I enjoy shooting the 1911A1, I prefer the ruger .22
[18:06:39] <robin_sz> :)
[18:06:56] <robin_sz> time to get a real .22 then .. nice Hammerli or Unique
[18:07:07] <jmkasunich> nah, this one will do fine
[18:07:22] <jmkasunich> put 500 rds thru it yesterday
[18:07:32] <robin_sz> yikes
[18:07:36] <robin_sz> 500?
[18:07:45] <jmkasunich> they're cheep
[18:07:49] <robin_sz> sounds like the bug has bitten you then :)
[18:08:13] <jmkasunich> actually I bought the brick intending to shoot a couple hundred and save the rest for the outdoor range
[18:08:20] <robin_sz> heh
[18:08:50] <jmkasunich> but it turned out they weren't good for the gun (low velocity loads, didn't cycle it reliably) so I decided to use them up
[18:08:50] <robin_sz> you can get away with quite cheap rounds in a pistol
[18:09:00] <robin_sz> right
[18:09:20] <robin_sz> around about 1050fps is reckoned to be "best"
[18:09:27] <jmkasunich> using a sandbag I was regularly putting 10 rounds in a 1.5cm or so circle
[18:09:32] <jmkasunich> at 50 feet
[18:09:37] <robin_sz> coo
[18:09:45] <robin_sz> sounds like you have the hang of that
[18:09:57] <jmkasunich> not so good freehand
[18:10:04] <jmkasunich> a little shakyness
[18:10:23] <robin_sz> do they run postal comps out your way? Im sure they do
[18:10:31] <jmkasunich> not sure
[18:11:00] <jmkasunich> proper bullseye comps are one handed
[18:11:07] <jmkasunich> doing that I tend to spray them around
[18:11:09] <robin_sz> they can be quite fun, shoot a pair of targets every week and send them off
[18:12:10] <robin_sz> shrug ... they usually have classes from "expert" to "failed to hit the barn door" ... you shoot a couple of cards to determine your class and then off you go
[18:12:35] <robin_sz> nice to have some sort of objective thats all
[18:12:53] <jmkasunich> my objective is to enjoy myself
[18:13:00] <robin_sz> fairy nuff
[18:13:10] <jmkasunich> I sometimes go twice in a week, other times its a month or more between trips
[18:13:13] <jmkasunich> depends on my mood
[18:13:23] <jmkasunich> anything more organized might take the fun out of it
[18:13:46] <robin_sz> do they do "silhoutte" at your range?
[18:13:51] <jmkasunich> no
[18:14:05] <jmkasunich> thats unfortunate, its more fun when you can see a hit
[18:14:48] <jmkasunich> hard to see a .22 hole much beyond 20 feet away
[18:15:52] <jmkasunich> did I tell you about shooting the 45 at 100 yards?
[18:16:09] <jmkasunich> bang! wait, wait, wait, wait, puff of dust
[18:19:55] <jmkasunich> I was designing a target as I drove home - steel circles, from 1cm to maybe 5cm in diameter, suspended so when hit they spin around and settle back down again (like pendulums, axis parallel to the firing line, perpendicular to the bullet path)
[18:20:13] <jmkasunich> doubt they'd allow them at the range though
[18:28:58] <dmessier> we put thru 500 rounds last summer in 1 day after prairie dogs...
[18:29:21] <dmessier> the .22 is still a little slow for them
[18:29:43] <jmkasunich> they see it coming and duck? ;-)
[18:30:15] <dmessier> .22 hornet or .222 works better but the ammo is more $$$
[18:30:59] <dmessier> they do duck after hearing the shot
[18:31:01] <jmkasunich> seems like anything supersonic is gonna get there before they hear it
[18:31:35] <dmessier> ok so maybe the smell it i dunno... but you miss alot of good shots
[18:32:30] <jmkasunich> dmessier, maybe the god of prairie dogs is up there looking out for them ;-)
[18:32:47] <dmessier> i had 1 dog piss me off.. i finally hauled out the 30:06 and whacked him
[18:33:11] <dmessier> he was making a game of being shot at
[18:33:20] <dmessier> i won
[18:33:30] <jmkasunich> kind of a one-sided game
[18:33:33] <etla> any of you got any [emc-users] messages today ? seems to me that the list is very slow...
[18:33:51] <jmkasunich> etla: sourceforge has the lists shut down for some kind of maintainence
[18:34:03] <etla> ok
[18:37:32] <jepler> fenn: did you get tooltips working in classicladder? I can't figure them out for halscope, and I don't see much tip-related code in CL
[18:40:01] <jmkasunich> jepler: I have a GTK book with several pages covering tooltips
[18:40:18] <jmkasunich> any specific things I can look up?
[18:42:15] <jmkasunich> seems like you create an (invisible) tooltips widget with gtk_tooltips_new
[18:42:22] <jepler> jmkasunich: I can't formulate the question yet, beyond "it don't work none"
[18:42:52] <jepler> I should look for a tutorial
[18:43:06] <jepler>
[18:43:06] <jepler> snprintf(tip, sizeof(tip),
[18:43:06] <jepler> "Signal %-20s\nt=%-8.5f v=%-8.3f", chan->name, t, v);
[18:43:14] <jepler> gtk_tooltips_set_tip(disp->tip, disp->drawing, tip, tip);
[18:43:14] <jepler> gtk_tooltips_enable(disp->tip);
[18:43:14] <jepler> gtk_tooltips_force_window(disp->tip);
[18:43:19] <jmkasunich> then you assign mappings between other widgets and text using gtk_tooltips_set_tip(the_tooltips_widget, the_widget_that_the_text_maps_to, the_text)
[18:43:21] <jepler> this is basically what I'm doing
[18:44:07] <jmkasunich> you're trying to pop up info about a trace when they point at the trace?
[18:44:34] <jepler> right
[18:44:58] <jmkasunich> my book doesn't mention tooltips_force_window at all
[18:45:13] <jmkasunich> you might try the more conventional application, help for a button, first
[18:45:15] <jepler> it's in the online documentation; I tried adding it when it didn't work
[18:45:30] <SWPadnos> you probably have to do more work when the tooltip needs to change during the program run
[18:45:34] <jmkasunich> if that works, then you know it something unique to the drawing widget
[18:45:45] <SWPadnos> vs. having static text like "stops the machine"
[18:46:27] <jmkasunich> would a right click be a better way to get the "scope cursor" functionality you are looking for?
[18:47:33] <jmkasunich> that code snippet you pasted... when are you executing it?
[18:47:40] <jepler> every time there is a motion event seen
[18:47:44] <jmkasunich> seems like you won't know t and v until they move the mouse
[18:47:48] <jepler> (I know the code is being executed, because it also prints tip)
[18:48:06] <jepler> Signal Ypos
[18:48:06] <jepler> t=-1.28863 v=-0.668
[18:48:11] <jmkasunich> I get the impression that tooltips are meant to be set up in advance (shortly after the widgets they link to are created)
[18:50:06] <jmkasunich> you could draw vertical and horizontal dashed lines based on the mouse position (cursors) and display the numerical values elsewhere on the screen (gotta find a place onscreen tho)
[18:51:08] <jmkasunich> originally I intended the space to the right of the channel name button (where fenn put the logging button) to be used for a cursor display
[19:05:30] <jmkasunich> in hindsight, the idea of making halscope look like a real scope front panel (controls for everything always visible) instead of using menus for some things was probably a mistake
[19:05:31] <cradek> the values could follow the cursor/lines on the screen
[19:05:59] <jmkasunich> I just haven't been able to work up the energy to add a menu system to it
[19:06:14] <jmkasunich> it should certainly have a file menu for logging, and for saving configs
[19:06:56] <cradek> that's sure true
[19:07:14] <cradek> I like that it saves, but I don't like its .halscope droppings everywhere
[19:07:31] <cradek> and I'd definitely like to save more than one setup
[19:07:32] <jmkasunich> it sticks them in the current directory doesn't it
[19:07:40] <cradek> yes
[19:07:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> goodnight
[19:08:04] <jmkasunich> guess that could be in ~/.halscoperc or something
[19:08:06] <cradek> jmkasunich: so if you're running a sample config, it can't save
[19:08:21] <cradek> (I think)
[19:08:58] <jmkasunich> not sure if 'pwd' when running EMC is the configs dir, or the dir you were in when you started it
[19:09:18] <cradek> I'm pretty sure it's the config dir
[19:09:33] <jmkasunich> so then storing the setup there is clearly bad
[19:09:52] <cradek> yeah
[19:10:15] <cradek> but separating it from the config is also bad - the signal names may be totally different in different configs
[19:10:20] <cradek> so I don't know what the answer is
[19:10:21] <jmkasunich> right
[19:10:38] <cradek> like you say, let the user control it manually, I guess
[19:11:07] <jmkasunich> once you have File->SaveConfig and File->LoadConfig, you could discard the autosave and autorestore completely
[19:11:20] <jmkasunich> although it is convenient
[19:11:48] <jmkasunich> seems to be suffering some bitrot at the moment, I'm using it, and it doesn't seem to restore the sampling thread
[19:11:57] <jmkasunich> once I get the PWM component fixed I'll look into that
[19:12:00] <cradek> restore?
[19:12:15] <jmkasunich> I have threads "fast" and "slow"
[19:12:20] <jmkasunich> I shut down, then restart
[19:12:42] <jmkasunich> instead of attaching the sample function to thread "fast" like it was before shutdown...
[19:12:47] <cradek> oh strange, that recently rotted then
[19:12:48] <jmkasunich> it says it can't find the thread
[19:13:05] <cradek> you must have bogons about
[19:13:30] <jmkasunich> could be
[19:15:58] <jmkasunich> ok, if I explicitly loadrt scope_rt before invoking halscope, it works
[19:16:01] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/ (scope_disp.c scope_usr.h scope_vert.c): make click-to-switch-channels work better. add a tooltip with the time and value near the pointer (needs work)
[19:16:13] <jmkasunich> but if I don't (and halscope loads scope_rt itself) it doesn't
[19:22:17] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot7_log.txt
[19:22:53] <jmkasunich> hmm
[19:22:54] <cradek> oops
[19:23:10] <jmkasunich> that is my main system, which uses GTK 1.2
[19:23:12] <cradek> checking for GTK version... 1.2
[19:23:16] <alex_joni> hello
[19:23:18] <jmkasunich> I bet jepler tested on 2.0
[19:23:23] <cradek> hi alex
[19:23:41] <alex_joni> cradek: seen my messages from earlier?
[19:23:44] <cradek> umm
[19:24:04] <cradek> you just said you'll try later?
[19:24:24] <alex_joni> short summary: the emc2.0.0 package fails to start, because module helper doesn't want to insert rtai_sched.ko
[19:25:02] <alex_joni> rtai_sched.ko isn't in the list of that version of emc_module_helper, but it should match /usr/realtime.. and it doesn't
[19:25:05] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot3_log.txt
[19:26:07] <alex_joni> hmm.. did I come back at a bad time? :-)
[19:26:43] <cradek> have you done any troubleshooting yet?
[19:27:24] <alex_joni> yeah, seems module_helper is the problem
[19:27:25] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build FAILED ; see http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/emc2head_slot5_log.txt
[19:28:01] <cradek> wonder if it has a bug, or it's compiled with the wrong flags or something
[19:28:17] <alex_joni> I see the HEAD version is improved (1. it has rtai_sched in the whitelist, 2. it has some cleaner checks for whitelist)
[19:28:50] <cradek> I bet the rtlib directory is wrong in your rtai config (configure doesn't figure out the path?)
[19:29:21] <alex_joni> cradek: the 2.0.0 version of module_helper has 3 tests for whitelists, the last one is the one that checks against /usr/realtime, but the error (and bailing out) happens on the first check
[19:31:15] <alex_joni> cradek: the rtai_sched was added only lateron to the list (Revision
[19:31:48] <cradek> oh so something is just missing from the whitelist?
[19:32:15] <alex_joni> that is one aspect, and the other one I think is a bug
[19:32:24] <cradek> maybe you/we should make a 2.0.1 package
[19:32:31] <alex_joni> it should have allowed modules starting with /usr/realtime
[19:32:51] <alex_joni> in my case /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/..
[19:32:55] <cradek> no that's only one requirement
[19:32:59] <alex_joni> I think 2.0.1 is the best choice
[19:33:01] <giacus> alex_joni: it do so for kernel 2.6.16 and latest rtai patch
[19:33:13] <alex_joni> giacus: it's a matter of rtai I think
[19:33:25] <alex_joni> I used the latest magma
[19:34:34] <giacus> emc was unable to start loading modules for me
[19:34:56] <giacus> what kernel you used ?
[19:35:07] <alex_joni> check a few lines above :D
[19:35:14] <alex_joni> 22:41 < alex_joni> in my case /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/..
[19:35:34] <giacus> well, the issue could be with the kernel maybe
[19:35:42] <giacus> it work fine for me in 2.6.16
[19:35:43] <alex_joni> giacus: no kernel issue
[19:35:54] <alex_joni> it works ok for me too, just not using 2.0.0
[19:36:04] <giacus> oh.. ok
[19:36:06] <alex_joni> cradek: I think I should package the pre-2.0.1
[19:36:10] <alex_joni> and test for a while
[19:36:16] <alex_joni> then if it's ok we release ?
[19:36:34] <jmkasunich> are you talking about packages for breezy, dapper, or both?
[19:36:41] <alex_joni> dapper only
[19:36:59] <jmkasunich> are there breezy packages for 2.0.1 yet?
[19:37:04] <alex_joni> maybe we should move TESTING ?
[19:37:07] <alex_joni> there is no 2.0.1 yet
[19:37:15] <alex_joni> only pre-2.0.1 CVS
[19:37:19] <jmkasunich> then don't worry about the dapper packages
[19:37:29] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: the 2.0.0 doesn't run on dapper
[19:37:41] <jmkasunich> as far as I'm concerned, dapper support can wait for 2.1.0
[19:37:47] <jmkasunich> or 2.0.2
[19:38:01] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: ok, I have no problem with that
[19:38:10] <jmkasunich> only a few bleeding edge people are going to be asking for dapper packages
[19:38:16] <alex_joni> that's why I suggested I'll package a pre-2.0.1 and see if it works
[19:38:33] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: had 2 new users who installed dapper (because our page says install ubuntu)
[19:38:34] <cradek> jmkasunich: I suspect a lot of people will be asking
[19:38:47] <jmkasunich> we need to decide if dapper is a requirement for 2.0.1 or not
[19:38:49] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that's only 3 days after the release..
[19:39:07] <jmkasunich> if no, then release the 2.0.1 breezy packages (and source tarball, etc) now
[19:39:08] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: it's basicly a small bugfix in 2.0.0 which allows 2.0.1 to work on dapper
[19:39:20] <jepler> * jepler wanders back and looks at the complaints from the farm
[19:39:21] <jepler> doh!
[19:39:34] <alex_joni> jepler: glad someone does some actual work..
[19:39:40] <jmkasunich> if so, don't make/release anything until it works on both breezy and dapper
[19:39:53] <jmkasunich> (and, we need a volunteer to host a dapper compile farm slot)
[19:41:20] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/scope_disp.c: remove gtk-style cast that doesn't work on old gtk
[19:44:45] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[19:45:31] <cradek> yay
[19:47:36] <jepler> that wasn't the broken one
[19:47:51] <cradek> oh I withdraw my yay then
[19:48:13] <jmkasunich> it was too (one of) the broken ones
[19:48:23] <jmkasunich> so, yay
[19:48:55] <cradek> ok yay
[19:48:58] <alex_joni> yay
[20:00:13] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[20:04:05] <CIA-8> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[20:04:18] <SWPadnos> yay
[20:06:29] <jmkasunich> green board! (as the sub folks would say)
[20:06:35] <SWPadnos> he
[20:06:37] <SWPadnos> h
[20:06:49] <jmkasunich> we're gonna want a Ubuntu 6.06 slot soon
[20:06:58] <SWPadnos> I may be able to help there
[20:07:07] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: not sure I can host an always on 6.06
[20:07:25] <SWPadnos> yeah - that's the issue
[20:07:28] <SWPadnos> always on
[20:07:38] <jmkasunich> I could try a server install of 6.06 on a farm slot
[20:07:48] <jmkasunich> but ubuntu is getting a little fat for those machines
[20:07:57] <SWPadnos> maybe I can change my wife's computer over to Ubuntu, and see if she notices ;)
[20:08:09] <alex_joni> ROFL
[20:08:18] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: seen Xubuntu ?
[20:08:24] <SWPadnos> (from Windows 98)
[20:08:32] <SWPadnos> nope. I've seen kubuntu though
[20:08:43] <SWPadnos> Xubuntu is a lighter weight one, right - no Gnome or KDE?
[20:09:30] <SWPadnos> by the way - I have a copy of Ubuntu 6.06 on cncgear.com, if people want to download it from there
[20:09:42] <SWPadnos> http://www.cncgear.com/Files/
[20:09:51] <SWPadnos> (the obvious one ;) )
[20:10:11] <alex_joni> Xubuntu = Ubuntu + XFCE4
[20:10:23] <jepler> I have more machines but I don't want more always-on machines
[20:10:23] <SWPadnos> right - just found the wiki page
[20:10:29] <jmkasunich> I put xubuntu on a laptop a while back
[20:10:42] <alex_joni> but changing from one to another is basicly very easy
[20:10:50] <alex_joni> apt-get install ubuntu-dekstop
[20:10:50] <jmkasunich> the compile farm is probably the best bet for always on boxes
[20:10:54] <alex_joni> apt-get install kubuntu-dekstop
[20:10:57] <alex_joni> apt-get install xubuntu-dekstop
[20:10:58] <SWPadnos> I'm reading through the slashdot thread right now ;)
[20:11:01] <SWPadnos> looks pretty simple
[20:11:07] <jmkasunich> either that or I need a blazing fast box with qemu to run the farm
[20:11:26] <SWPadnos> I expect to have a server set up sometime soon, which will be always-on
[20:11:34] <SWPadnos> but I'm not sure how long that'll take me to get to
[20:11:45] <jmkasunich> what distro do you expect to run on it?
[20:11:48] <alex_joni> sounds like a job for 6.06 server
[20:11:48] <alex_joni> :D
[20:11:59] <jepler> "Offering VMware Server for free will bring VMware's proven virtualization technology to a wider audience, [...]"
[20:12:04] <SWPadnos> I may just go with ubuntu for the ease of maintenance
[20:12:13] <SWPadnos> having all the Linux systems the same caqn't make things any harder
[20:12:21] <alex_joni> jepler: where have you seen that?
[20:12:29] <jepler> maybe the gratis vmware would be better than qemu
[20:12:35] <jepler> alex_joni: http://www.vmware.com/products/server/
[20:13:37] <jmkasunich> what do the vmware folks mean by "server" and "player"
[20:14:23] <jepler> jmkasunich: "player" provides no facility for creating & configurating the "containers" for the hosted OS
[20:14:32] <jepler> I don't know what "server" is; it's apparently a beta of something
[20:14:52] <SWPadnos> they have a product that's like an app server, for thin-ish clients
[20:14:55] <SWPadnos> that may be what it is
[20:15:26] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: bugfix changes from during/since cnc workshop
[20:16:03] <alex_joni> 23:04 < zul> meh...xen does patch cleanly to edgy kernel tree
[20:16:03] <alex_joni> 23:23 < BenC> yeah, it will likely get integrated for edgy
[20:16:21] <cradek> edgy?
[20:16:31] <alex_joni> dapper++
[20:16:34] <SWPadnos> Edgy Egret or whatever is coming after Dapper
[20:16:37] <cradek> interesting
[20:16:49] <alex_joni> cradek: it will make our life miserable :D
[20:16:58] <jepler> personally, I'm waiting for Feisty Ferret
[20:17:04] <jmkasunich> its also supposed to be a couple years down the road
[20:17:10] <alex_joni> not sure you can patch RTAI over Xen..
[20:17:10] <jmkasunich> (instead of just 6 months)
[20:17:19] <jmkasunich> Xen as in Xenomai?
[20:17:21] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that's why dapper is the LTS
[20:17:24] <cradek> gelatinous gazelle?
[20:17:29] <alex_joni> Xen is the GL enabled X server
[20:17:31] <jepler> Loquatious Lemur?
[20:17:55] <jepler> if it refers to X server technology, why do they say there's a kernel patch?
[20:18:05] <cradek> if everyone has to use nvidia, we're possibly going to be screwed
[20:18:06] <SWPadnos> Xen is a virtualization system as well
[20:18:18] <SWPadnos> isn't the X thing called XGL?
[20:18:27] <alex_joni> oh.. might have remembered it wrong..
[20:18:40] <cradek> I wonder how much longer realtime on PCs is going to work
[20:18:56] <alex_joni> rtai seems to be going weird ways
[20:18:57] <SWPadnos> I guess it depends on what "layer" you write your code for
[20:19:02] <jmkasunich> as long as the CPUs that it runs on are available
[20:19:32] <jmkasunich> people were (are?) running BDI-2 5+ years after it was released
[20:19:43] <SWPadnos> until those computers break
[20:19:49] <jepler> I think what cradek means is "how long will rtai run on most new commodity hardware"
[20:19:53] <jmkasunich> we may find ourselves running emc on dapper 5+ years from now
[20:20:04] <SWPadnos> it's a matter of the hardware, I think
[20:20:19] <SWPadnos> as long as yesterday's and to a certain extent today's hardware work, we're fine
[20:20:43] <SWPadnos> but things are definitely moving away from simple low level interfaces
[20:20:51] <SWPadnos> (like HT, PCI-E, USB, FireWire, etc)
[20:21:00] <SWPadnos> the good old port pin is going away
[20:21:18] <jmkasunich> yet you can still buy parport cards
[20:21:43] <SWPadnos> yes, but they aren't necessarily going to be available or useful for RT work soon
[20:21:44] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: hopefully one day motion control cards might be cheaper than parport cards
[20:21:53] <SWPadnos> a PCI-E parport card will probably have abysmal latency
[20:22:04] <jmkasunich> those who live on the leading edge sometime forget that the PC world has a very long tail
[20:22:05] <SWPadnos> a PCI-E MEsa card would be nice though ;)
[20:22:06] <jepler> the next thing will be to run the realtime stuff on a "gumstix"-like device
[20:22:27] <jepler> something big enough to run linux but not a PC
[20:22:35] <alex_joni> uclinux anyone?
[20:22:45] <SWPadnos> the issue is when "commodity" hardware will no longer work
[20:23:22] <jepler> lots of "commodity" hardware already doesn't work (integrated video, laptops, etc)
[20:23:29] <SWPadnos> right
[20:23:29] <jmkasunich> true
[20:23:43] <jmkasunich> but you can still go into just about any computer store and buy brand new hardware that will work
[20:24:04] <jepler> and if not, it works after adding a $5 video card
[20:24:11] <jmkasunich> the problem will only get serious when the average computer store no longer stocks motherboards that have PCI slots or parports
[20:24:31] <SWPadnos> sure, and that 's a few years out
[20:24:46] <jepler> why would the latency of a pci-e parport be worse than a pci one?
[20:24:48] <alex_joni> eh.. who knows what happens by then..
[20:24:54] <alex_joni> jepler: serial ?
[20:25:03] <fenn> jepler: no i havent finished putting tooltips in classicladder
[20:25:13] <skunkworks> the last batch of dells we got in only had 1 pci slot and only usb
[20:25:35] <skunkworks> ok - also a nic
[20:25:42] <fenn> jepler: i need to make an 'event box' for each rung element, which is an invisible widget that triggers the tooltip
[20:25:45] <jmkasunich> dells aren't PCs anymore
[20:26:23] <fenn> jepler: also i think hal needs some function to give you a name back, i dont really remember right now though
[20:26:31] <SWPadnos> jepler, PCI-E is a multi-channel serial link, so there are setup, packetization, and buffering issues that may adversely affect latency
[20:26:56] <SWPadnos> I don't have specific experience with it though - just a possibility
[20:27:58] <alex_joni> we'll see...
[20:28:06] <jmkasunich> I think software stepgen is going to be the first victim, but realtime good enough for the servo thread (1mS thread, 100uS or so latency) will be viable for quite a while
[20:28:12] <alex_joni> maybe rtai won't drag their feet and make dual cores work GREAT
[20:28:29] <fenn> software stepgen is a dumb idea anyway
[20:28:52] <jmkasunich> the work by the kernel folks for better premption and such may eventually get us to a stock kernel that can manage the servo thread without RT patches
[20:29:04] <SWPadnos> without reasonable realtime, MP3's, video, and networking don't work all that well, so I agree the 1ms level will be viable for a long time ;)
[20:29:17] <jmkasunich> software stepgen isn't dumb
[20:29:31] <jmkasunich> it is a very smart solution for a certain class of applications
[20:29:41] <fenn> ok
[20:29:50] <jmkasunich> (ones driven by cost and easy implementation)
[20:29:54] <fenn> i retract my statement
[20:30:13] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/scope_disp.c: remove debugging cruft
[20:30:14] <jmkasunich> its dumb for other applications
[20:30:21] <jmkasunich> like $100K machining centers
[20:30:24] <fenn> its just, not as good as most people originally assume
[20:30:54] <cradek> I bet it runs 90% of the machine hooked to emc
[20:30:57] <cradek> machines
[20:31:01] <fenn> yeah
[20:31:10] <fenn> and 99% of the pc retrofits
[20:31:22] <cradek> so it's good while it lasts (it might become unworkable with pc "progress")
[20:32:01] <fenn> do you know anything about hacking commodity embedded computers?
[20:32:06] <fenn> like nslu2 and wrt54g
[20:32:19] <Bo^Dick> i've tried this concept for programming a PIC18F452, http://www.dontronics.com/dtait/parpic.gif
[20:32:33] <cradek> but with the upcoming "trusted computing" we may be unable to run free software on new commodity hardware anyway; it's useless to try to predict too far into the future
[20:32:57] <Bo^Dick> has anyone tried "in circuit programming" of a pic?
[20:33:11] <fenn> Bo^Dick: no but i've heard its unreliable
[20:33:11] <cradek> no but I use that all the time with avrs
[20:33:12] <SWPadnos> Bo^Dick, many times, as well as AVRs
[20:33:33] <jmkasunich> cradek: exactly
[20:33:56] <jmkasunich> the greed of RIAA and the movie companies may doom the "personal" computer as we know it
[20:33:57] <SWPadnos> ISP works fine for both chip families, but the PIC tends to be a bit more finicky about the pulse timing
[20:34:08] <Bo^Dick> i've tried that very circuit and the software for it but the software claims that the hardware isn't connected
[20:34:09] <SWPadnos> though the F parts aren't as bad as the older i6C parts
[20:34:13] <cradek> yep
[20:34:25] <cradek> always remember to not throw out your old hardware
[20:34:29] <SWPadnos> oops - 16C
[20:34:49] <fenn> reduce, reuse, store in basement for eternity
[20:35:10] <cradek> bbl
[20:35:41] <Bo^Dick> is there anything special that i should think of when trying to program the pic this way?
[20:35:58] <fenn> noise on the lines
[20:36:00] <SWPadnos> don't use very long cables
[20:36:01] <jmkasunich> on the bright side, when the sheeple start buying their "trusted" home entertainment appliances, there will be millions of good old open computers for free on the treelawns everywhere
[20:36:34] <SWPadnos> also, make sure the MCLR line switches all the way from ~0 to ~13.5V
[20:36:44] <SWPadnos> (I think you still need 13-14V for programming the flash parts)
[20:36:54] <fenn> jmkasunich: or inside locked dumpsters and compactors
[20:37:07] <jmkasunich> nah
[20:37:08] <Bo^Dick> this pic features low voltage programming
[20:37:21] <jmkasunich> Joe Sheeple isn't going to go to all that trouble
[20:37:29] <SWPadnos> I think you still need the high voltage to put it into programming mode, but I could be wrong
[20:37:44] <Bo^Dick> the software features a debug mode and when i'm measuring on the circuit it seems like the voltage is slightly over 3 volts instead of 5 volts. wonder if my parallel-port plays a joke on me
[20:37:49] <SWPadnos> I switched to AVR as soon as they were released, and I haven't looked back once
[20:37:52] <fenn> i went to the recycling center to try to get some electronic stuff, they wouldnt let me have any computer parts because it might have data on it, or any cellphone parts because i might electrocute myself :)
[20:37:52] <jepler> "treelawns"?
[20:38:24] <SWPadnos> you couldcreate a terrorist cancer gun with enough cellphones, you know
[20:38:26] <jmkasunich> what, you ain't got treelawns out in the sticks?
[20:38:33] <SWPadnos> forests?
[20:38:42] <fenn> um, lawns? whats that?
[20:39:06] <fenn> you mean people spend hundreds of man hours CUTTING GRASS?
[20:39:08] <jmkasunich> treelawn: the strip of grass between sidewalk and street in the burbs, where everybody puts their trash on trash day
[20:39:23] <SWPadnos> lawn, (n): The thing you end up mowing when your wife says "Honey - can you help me with the mower for a minute?"
[20:39:27] <jepler> I've never heard it called that
[20:39:35] <jmkasunich> maybe its a local term
[20:39:41] <jmkasunich> what do you call it?
[20:39:51] <jepler> the "parking strip"
[20:39:51] <SWPadnos> must be - Google doesn't seem to know what it is
[20:40:06] <SWPadnos> "the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the road" ;)
[20:40:21] <jmkasunich> try "tree lawn"
[20:40:44] <SWPadnos> ah, indeed. Google did suggest that as wemm
[20:40:46] <SWPadnos> well
[20:41:14] <jmkasunich> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_lawn
[20:42:01] <SWPadnos> heh: excerpted from yourdictionary.com:
[20:42:04] <jmkasunich> the trees that line the street are in the tree lawn, and as such its the city, not the homeowner, who is responsible for maintainence, trimming, etc of the trees
[20:42:21] <SWPadnos> Regional Note: To the majority of Americans, the grassy strip between the sidewalk and the street is called simply 'the grassy strip between the sidewalk and the street'.
[20:42:27] <jmkasunich> handy when a branch falls on someone, you don't get sued
[20:42:45] <jmkasunich> not so handy when the city decides to cut down a perfectly good tree in front of your house and not replace it
[20:42:58] <jmkasunich> (or replace it with a 1/2" diameter sprout)
[20:43:43] <jmkasunich> I bet its a dying term anyway
[20:44:08] <jmkasunich> as the days of streets lined with majestic 50-100 year old oaks and such are fading fast
[20:44:25] <SWPadnos> yeah
[20:46:55] <jepler> vmware server doesn't seem to like the 2.6.12-magma kernel (as host). It immediately locked up when I tried to run it.
[20:47:31] <jmkasunich> maybe the emulation doesn't go low enough to handle the RT
[21:02:26] <jepler> and, great, running vmware-uninstall.pl hangs, leaving unkillable processes
[21:02:53] <giacus> jepler: I'm going to try with vmware wkstation 5, I'll tell you what happen later
[21:03:08] <jmkasunich> this is why I let other people try new things out first
[21:04:24] <giacus> jepler: cpu and ram ?
[21:06:48] <jepler> giacus: Pentium-M, 768M, ubuntu "breezy" with host kernel 2.6.12-magma
[21:07:36] <giacus> ok, I'll try with a P4, 3gzh, 1gb ram, debian k. 2.6.16,
[21:08:09] <giacus> I have to check cradek config file for the kernel yet..
[21:08:20] <giacus> unpacking the deb now
[21:10:28] <jepler> this is with VMware-server-1.0.0-24927.tar.gz
[21:10:42] <giacus> I know.. free version I suppose
[21:11:54] <giacus> hi K4ts
[21:13:25] <K4ts> hi giacus
[21:14:02] <giacus> wonder if is possible to transfer the entire vmware partition to a real machine using some tool
[21:15:13] <jepler> some versions of qemu-img can use vmware-format "vmdk" files
[21:16:15] <jepler> so maybe this would work: qemu-img convert example.vmdk -O raw /tmp/hda
[21:16:25] <jepler> and then dd /tmp/hda onto a real disk of the appropriate size
[21:36:59] <alex_joni> jepler: wonder if that would work the other way around too.. ?
[21:42:11] <alex_joni> take any running distro, and make a vmdk out of it.. then all you need is the free vm player
[21:43:57] <jmkasunich> alex: I suspect you'd have problems because "any running distro" is unlikely to have the same hardware that the emulator provides
[21:44:12] <alex_joni> well, not quite any.. but you get the point
[21:44:35] <SWPadnos> it's unlikely that any physical computer has a "vmware network adapter" in it ;)
[21:44:48] <SWPadnos> though they do emulate an NE2000, I think
[21:45:11] <jmkasunich> imagine installing something on my 200MHz compile farm slot, packing that up into a vmdk, then unpacking it onto SWP's dual Athon box ;-)
[21:45:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:45:34] <SWPadnos> it's not Athlon, it's Opteron! ;)
[21:45:51] <jmkasunich> <foo>on
[21:45:52] <SWPadnos> (he's everywhere, he's everywhere)
[21:45:53] <K4ts> alex for holiday you take a decision?
[21:46:02] <alex_joni> K4ts: paying on monday
[21:46:05] <SWPadnos> ($foo)on
[21:46:11] <K4ts> ah
[21:46:11] <alex_joni> YAY .. pre-2.0.1 runs on dapper
[21:47:16] <SWPadnos> yay
[21:47:39] <alex_joni> now.. if only cradek were around
[21:51:13] <giacus> SWPadnos: http://www.giacus.org/files/shot5.png
[21:51:29] <giacus> on the right window the real HW
[21:52:02] <giacus> window on right side*
[21:54:10] <giacus> vmtools should improve performace, I didnt istall it yet
[22:00:05] <alex_joni> jepler: you around?
[22:05:55] <alex_joni> giacus: any progress on the movie?
[22:07:08] <giacus> looking for some pan and zoom effect
[22:07:37] <giacus> I found one in lives, but I want the inverse effect of that
[22:07:55] <giacus> kino crash, using right that
[22:08:14] <giacus> and cinelerra do not have pan and zoom
[22:08:47] <giacus> I'll update it soon
[22:10:42] <giacus> have to work tomorrow a couple of hours on it
[22:14:17] <alex_joni> wow.. Xen sounds pretty crazy
[22:14:29] <alex_joni> "Xen virtual machines can be "live migrated" between physical hosts without stopping them. During this procedure, the memory of the virtual machine is iteratively copied to the destination without stopping its execution. A very brief stoppage of around 60.300 ms is required to perform final synchronisation before the virtual machine begins executing at its final destination, providing an illusion of seamless migration. Similar technology is used to suspend
[22:14:39] <SWPadnos> ok - the VMWare machine has an AMD PCNet32 device
[22:15:27] <SWPadnos> probably an easier to program interface than the (originally ISA) NE2000
[22:18:46] <giacus> I had to enable some extra scsi module in the kernel to get it running, for the HD
[22:18:57] <SWPadnos> sbp2?
[22:20:36] <giacus> mptscsih
[22:20:43] <SWPadnos> hmm. weird
[22:20:50] <SWPadnos> did you create the VM with SCSI or IDE?
[22:21:03] <giacus> I used default preferences
[22:21:07] <SWPadnos> (and was that the host or guest that needed it?)
[22:21:10] <giacus> so, I think SCSI
[22:21:24] <SWPadnos> default is IDE
[22:21:37] <SWPadnos> err - wait. I may have that backwards - it's been a while
[22:22:09] <SWPadnos> right. SCSI is default - I remember that I couldn't install BDI onto the first VM I created
[22:22:16] <giacus> it was going in kernel panic..
[22:22:59] <SWPadnos> well, that's no fun
[22:26:17] <alex_joni> heh.. http://kororaa.org/index.php
[22:36:49] <fenn> * fenn groans
[22:37:05] <fenn> i wish people wouldnt complicate things like that
[22:37:44] <alex_joni> you mean the GPL stuff?
[22:37:57] <fenn> yes.. why should kernel modules be any different?
[22:38:40] <giacus> there's a battle on the way for that I guess
[22:38:48] <fenn> obviously they are derivative works because you need to look at the kernel source to know what functions to call
[22:39:24] <jmkasunich> what if a module calls no kernel functions?
[22:39:37] <fenn> then why is it a kernel module?
[22:39:45] <jmkasunich> IOW, the kernel module mechanism is just a way to load code into kernel space
[22:40:08] <jmkasunich> because the code needs to run in kernel space for some reason (like being RT)
[22:40:12] <fenn> you still need hooks to use the kernel module mechanism
[22:40:23] <fenn> if that's lgpl then it would be fine
[22:40:30] <jmkasunich> you never call the kernel, it calls you
[22:40:41] <fenn> heh only in soviet russia :)
[22:40:46] <jmkasunich> you must provide init_module() and cleanup_module()
[22:41:01] <giacus> listen fro these calls ?
[22:41:04] <jmkasunich> thats it (if you don't intend to use kernel resources)
[22:41:25] <jmkasunich> I don't want to get into this discussion.....
[22:41:39] <giacus> why not :)
[22:41:41] <giacus> hehe
[22:41:54] <fenn> well i dont know what i'm talking about so it would be pretty pointless
[22:41:56] <giacus> it was interesting
[22:42:10] <fenn> giacus: go talk about it on #gnu then >:)
[22:42:17] <jmkasunich> nothing rules out running a non-free program on Linux
[22:42:32] <jmkasunich> _unless_ that program has parts implemented in kernel space
[22:42:38] <giacus> fenn: no.. the kernel I meant, not the gpl
[22:42:48] <jmkasunich> then people say its a violation of the gpl, even if it never calls the kernel
[22:43:16] <fenn> i dont understand what "kernel space" really means
[22:43:25] <fenn> its just an area of memory right?
[22:43:40] <fenn> or does it have to do with permissions?
[22:43:41] <alex_joni> fenn: no, it's also about priority, and control ..
[22:43:42] <jmkasunich> and privliges
[22:43:56] <SWPadnos> and actual processor execution modes
[22:44:22] <jmkasunich> if you do an outb() in user space, the outb() doesn't actually get executed, it causes a trap and transfers control to the kernel which then decides if you are "worthy" of writing to the output port
[22:44:38] <jmkasunich> if you do an outb() in kernel space, you write to the damned port right now!
[22:44:48] <alex_joni> !
[22:44:51] <SWPadnos> !!
[22:44:58] <fenn> ...
[22:45:01] <giacus> O_O
[22:45:26] <giacus> jmkasunich: cool
[22:45:28] <jmkasunich> as an embedded programmer who is accustomed to having full control of the system, I like the kernel space approach better
[22:46:21] <SWPadnos> almost makes the PC look like a big microcontroller
[22:46:32] <K4ts> gnu?
[22:46:45] <SWPadnos> no, kernel-mode execution ;)
[22:46:48] <fenn> gnu's not unix!
[22:46:54] <giacus> K4ts: gnu's not unix
[22:46:58] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos, exactly
[22:47:01] <giacus> haha
[22:47:48] <alex_joni> g'night all
[22:47:52] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[22:47:54] <K4ts> ciao alex
[22:47:57] <SWPadnos> see ya Alex
[22:48:08] <giacus> G'Night alex_joni
[22:49:19] <giacus> K4ts: you should know what gnu is !
[22:49:25] <K4ts> yes
[22:49:26] <giacus> damn it ..
[22:49:49] <giacus> you forget that ? :)
[22:50:35] <giacus> oh.. true, you was sleeping at the conference
[22:50:40] <giacus> :D
[22:53:53] <asdfqwega> Hoo-wah...now we're cookin' with gas
[22:55:22] <K4ts> The GNU operating system is a complete free software system, upward-compatible with Unix. GNU stands for ``GNU's Not Unix''. Richard Stallman made the Initial Announcement of the GNU Project in September 1983. A longer version called the GNU Manifesto was published in September 1985. It has been translated into several other languages.
[22:55:24] <K4ts> ahah
[22:55:26] <K4ts> giacus
[22:55:47] <asdfqwega> An unfortunate side effect of using debian/testing: Even when using an apt-cacher setup, it still has to get the latest Packages, even if my last update was five minutes ago :(
[22:56:35] <K4ts> http://www.giacus.org/photo/eventi/stallman/img007.jpeg.html
[22:57:02] <giacus> asdfqwega: how is possible ?
[22:57:39] <asdfqwega> Is stallman in the lower left corner?
[22:57:42] <giacus> if you're using the apt-conf you shoud check the cache limit I think
[22:58:05] <jmkasunich> he looks stoned
[22:58:16] <giacus> asdfqwega: yeah, and the woman is K4ts :P
[22:58:46] <giacus> K4ts: I'm happy you learn what gnu is :)
[22:58:51] <K4ts> head of gnu and its fans
[22:59:40] <K4ts> asdfqwega: lookkkkkkkk
[22:59:56] <giacus> asdfqwega: sorry was apt.conf
[23:00:13] <asdfqwega> k4ts: What? Where?
[23:00:25] <K4ts> t watches and it wishes!
[23:01:17] <asdfqwega> Um...lemmee consult my k4ts decoder ring...
[23:02:29] <K4ts> asdfqwega: my translate is little reliable
[23:03:18] <K4ts> excused if it mistakes
[23:03:31] <Jymmm> I don't knwo if any cares or not, but... Radio Shack has a 1,000,000 cp rechargable spotlight on sale for $4.99 and includes AC and Cigarette lighter adapters. (Note: it can NOT operate off of 12V, only able to recharge from 12V) but for $5 who cares!!!
[23:03:36] <Jymmm> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2118033&cp
[23:03:50] <fenn> * fenn yawns
[23:04:12] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega stares off into space
[23:04:51] <asdfqwega> logger_aj, bookmark
[23:04:51] <asdfqwega> See
[23:05:26] <fenn> if i take a nap now, i probably wont wake up until tomorrow
[23:05:55] <giacus> fenn: what time is it there ?
[23:06:13] <Jymmm> fenn wire your alarm clock to a step up transformer, you'll wake up =)
[23:06:50] <giacus> or die :(
[23:07:03] <giacus> depende on voltage
[23:07:11] <Jymmm> no no that THAT big a step up xfmr
[23:07:19] <fenn> sorry i swore to myself i'd never use an alarm clock
[23:07:29] <giacus> uh, dont know what it is
[23:07:38] <les_w> hi folks
[23:07:39] <Jymmm> fenn: Ok, setup a job on your cnc to end in 2 hours
[23:07:44] <Jymmm> hey les_w
[23:07:44] <giacus> hello les_w
[23:07:52] <K4ts> hey les
[23:08:09] <les_w> another day of work in the yard
[23:08:12] <jmkasunich> fenn: thats a nice way to live, see how long you can keep it up
[23:08:14] <fenn> * fenn goes back to reading about timer hardware
[23:08:16] <les_w> planting flowers
[23:08:20] <les_w> moving logs
[23:08:25] <Jymmm> fenn you might want to get that spotlight... add extra light for when your taking photos - it has a tripod mount on the bottom (1/4-20)
[23:08:40] <fenn> nah i'll just keep taking dim photos i think
[23:08:47] <Jymmm> bastard!
[23:09:00] <fenn> maybe you can send me a better camera :)
[23:09:04] <les_w> I keep a tripod handy in the shop
[23:09:17] <les_w> I have to take pictures monday
[23:09:21] <Jymmm> a better camera isn't gonna help if you dont have any light in that cave of yours
[23:09:32] <fenn> no, i really do have plenty of lights
[23:09:35] <Jymmm> fenn it's only $5
[23:09:38] <fenn> a flashlight isnt gonna help
[23:09:46] <giacus> oh .. les, some video of your cnc at work ? :)
[23:09:50] <fenn> even if it is "a million candle power"
[23:10:19] <Jymmm> fenn oh, go take a nap or something!
[23:10:42] <fenn> * fenn rolls around in a pile of datasheets
[23:11:05] <Jymmm> oh, hi jmkasunich
[23:11:18] <Jymmm> I was too busy bitching at fenn when you popped in
[23:11:23] <giacus> les_w: if you can, please take a video of cnc working, few minuts are enough, to insert them in our own emc videoclip
[23:11:34] <les_w> ok
[23:11:42] <jmkasunich> popped in? been here all afternoon ;-)
[23:11:53] <Jymmm> ok, popped up. how's that?
[23:12:37] <les_w> it will be a while though...preparing for the visit of binks and devilbiss engineering staff this week
[23:12:47] <les_w> all of them are coming I think
[23:12:51] <les_w> big party?
[23:12:53] <robin_sz> coo
[23:12:58] <les_w> ho robin
[23:13:02] <robin_sz> hi
[23:13:44] <Jymmm> Ok folks, just wanted to mention that sale if anyone was interested. I've got some stuff todo, so I'm outta here. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
[23:14:24] <robin_sz> looks like I have to go to Geneva again on Tueday for a week .. sigh
[23:14:31] <les_w> hey robin I got my $44,000 Agilent impedance analyzer
[23:14:44] <les_w> it's neat, but not $44,000 neat.
[23:15:02] <les_w> ITW had it shipped in.
[23:15:43] <robin_sz> coo
[23:15:56] <robin_sz> this is for the hv gen right?
[23:15:57] <les_w> geneva huh...life is rough.
[23:15:59] <les_w> hahaha
[23:16:08] <robin_sz> doe it draw Smith charts?
[23:16:14] <les_w> yeah for the "finger burner"
[23:16:24] <les_w> it does draw smith charts
[23:16:32] <robin_sz> nice :)
[23:16:36] <SWPadnos> it probably goes to frequencies ~100,000 times what you need
[23:16:38] <les_w> makes eqivalent circuit diagrams too
[23:16:43] <K4ts> http://bluedahlia.splinder.com/
[23:16:46] <robin_sz> heh, too easy
[23:16:59] <les_w> right swp....goes to 100 megahertz
[23:17:04] <SWPadnos> and transfers them to the computer or printer via ethernet as well ;)
[23:17:15] <les_w> yup it does that
[23:17:26] <SWPadnos> only 100 Mz. I suppose the 10 GHz ones are closer to $200k
[23:17:32] <les_w> ha
[23:17:36] <les_w> I guess
[23:17:58] <les_w> It's a sin for me to be using the thing at 40 kHz
[23:18:04] <SWPadnos> true.
[23:18:11] <SWPadnos> I'll trade you for my Radio Shack multimeter ;)
[23:18:14] <les_w> or a 10 Hz servo loop
[23:18:27] <K4ts> sorry wrong window
[23:18:31] <les_w> The thing is huge...weighs 70 lbs
[23:18:39] <robin_sz> I spent a happy weekend with a 5.7 ghz trcvr I was designing and a HP S-parameter test set once ... sorted out months of stuff in a few hours
[23:18:41] <SWPadnos> normal for RF equipment
[23:18:59] <robin_sz> gear like that is too useful
[23:19:03] <les_w> managed to get it on a Tek scope cart with some shhopmade brackets
[23:19:42] <SWPadnos> $44k and they wouldn't spring for the Rackmount ears? cheapskates ;)
[23:19:53] <les_w> Really easy to use...I did not have to read the manual much
[23:20:15] <robin_sz> thats handy ... you'll be able to test one vital item of the spec with that ... the "survivability of a 1m drop onto concrete" :)
[23:20:17] <K4ts> night all
[23:20:25] <K4ts> hi giacus
[23:20:26] <les_w> night anna
[23:20:26] <SWPadnos> see you K4ts
[23:20:31] <giacus> goodnight K4ts
[23:21:43] <les_w> I just wonder why the thing is so big and heavy
[23:21:51] <les_w> what could be in it?
[23:21:51] <SWPadnos> lots of shielding inside
[23:21:58] <SWPadnos> thick metal
[23:22:06] <les_w> it's just a pc and a fast flash converter...
[23:22:23] <giacus> les_w: thinking to hack it ? :P
[23:22:28] <SWPadnos> the spectrum analyzer we used to use is probably 70-80 punds as well (used to use = 5 years ago, not in the '60s)
[23:22:29] <les_w> haha
[23:22:30] <les_w> nah
[23:23:10] <les_w> Awfully powerful tool is my first impression anyway
[23:23:18] <SWPadnos> the source has to be very stable, and well shielded. it may even be in an oven (not sure)
[23:23:40] <les_w> probably is
[23:23:56] <SWPadnos> if you open it up, you'll probably find a large metal block with many SMA connectors on it (or metal-sheathed lines going directly in)
[23:24:26] <SWPadnos> though 100 MHz is close to audio for a spectrum analyzer / impedance analyzer
[23:24:28] <les_w> this is it:
[23:25:27] <SWPadnos> 4294A?
[23:25:34] <les_w> http://www.home.agilent.com/USeng/nav/-11885.536879654/pd.html
[23:26:08] <SWPadnos> yep - that's what I thought
[23:26:24] <SWPadnos> the "precision" in the name makes it a lot more expensive (to build and to buy)
[23:27:05] <les_w> I guess. Just the little Kelvin klip lead set for it cost $3500
[23:27:19] <robin_sz> coo.
[23:27:30] <jmkasunich> s/cost/sells for/
[23:27:41] <robin_sz> real analyzers have APC7 connectors :)
[23:27:48] <les_w> At least I can stop guessing with this acoustics stuff.
[23:28:36] <robin_sz> when do you first get to see some results from it?
[23:29:20] <SWPadnos> note that the measurement time per sample will be ~5- 200 ms at 100 KHz
[23:30:00] <les_w> Well I have played with it for half a day. Got good results. I have to stay away from it for a day or two to write a report on the uv sanitizing of our kitchen equipment....then back to the lab
[23:30:19] <robin_sz> blink
[23:30:20] <les_w> If I start playing with it I won't finish the report
[23:30:40] <robin_sz> uv sanitizing of ...
[23:30:43] <robin_sz> sigh ...
[23:30:47] <robin_sz> dull huh?
[23:31:02] <les_w> It's money...a lot.
[23:31:13] <robin_sz> guess so
[23:31:18] <les_w> Using 185/254 nanometer Uv
[23:31:27] <les_w> to pull something very sneaky
[23:31:33] <robin_sz> when did you become a bacteriologist then?
[23:32:19] <les_w> A division asked me to develop self sanitizing commercial food processing equipment
[23:32:24] <les_w> another project
[23:32:56] <les_w> creating a thymine-thymine covalent bond disrupting DNA
[23:32:57] <robin_sz> so a 400W uv discharge lamp ...
[23:33:02] <robin_sz> zap them bugs
[23:33:09] <robin_sz> coo
[23:33:10] <les_w> nah 20 watts will do
[23:33:33] <robin_sz> off-the-shelf bulb or special?
[23:34:03] <les_w> we have to run tests. I need to know transmissibility of fatty acids and fatty acid esters at the 254 mercury line.
[23:34:23] <les_w> the equipment will likely be coated with thin films of grease
[23:34:41] <les_w> I googled a whole day and found nothing
[23:34:58] <robin_sz> surely you just coat it with grease, let it festrer for a few days, zap it, scrape bits off into petri dishes?
[23:34:59] <les_w> lots of stuff with UVA and UVB though.
[23:35:17] <les_w> We will be doing cultures yes
[23:35:45] <les_w> agar agar and all that rot.
[23:36:12] <robin_sz> at the end of the day, the theory doesnt matter much, you just need to see if it zaps the bugs hard enough
[23:36:25] <les_w> yup
[23:37:02] <les_w> t's sanitizing...not sterilizing...just reducing flora/fauna populations
[23:37:08] <les_w> like a refrigerator
[23:37:09] <robin_sz> right
[23:37:41] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:37:52] <les_w> but I am going to pull a big trick
[23:37:58] <fenn> lots of nasty bugs dont grow in agar
[23:38:00] <les_w> can't discuss of course
[23:38:01] <robin_sz> just strap a nice cobalt-60 source in the top
[23:38:15] <les_w> yeah!!!
[23:38:19] <SWPadnos> nukularize dem bugs
[23:38:42] <fenn> i guess you only care about e.coli tho
[23:39:09] <les_w> e.coli is big, but some coliform too
[23:39:10] <robin_sz> infact .. nice big box, ... big source at the top, who needs a fridge?
[23:39:29] <les_w> funny thing is UV works best on Viri
[23:39:44] <les_w> good marketing when chicken flu hits
[23:40:02] <robin_sz> * robin_sz throws out his fridge and stores his food around a 2kg block of cobalt
[23:40:03] <les_w> the bigger the bug, the harder to kill with UV
[23:40:13] <fenn> depends on a lot of stuff
[23:40:27] <fenn> mostly whether they are adapted to live in the open or not
[23:40:56] <les_w> Oh, I have all the lethal doses for various bugs
[23:40:57] <robin_sz> coo. suppose so.
[23:41:00] <fenn> so p. aeruginosa for example is a lot harder to kill
[23:41:03] <robin_sz> dangerous to geeks then?
[23:41:06] <les_w> at UVC 254
[23:41:23] <les_w> actually the thymine thyminr dimer needs 264
[23:41:52] <fenn> so shouldnt you be measuring at 264?
[23:42:31] <les_w> but covalent bonds of cytosine and guianine happen too at similar energies
[23:43:24] <les_w> Fenn I use 254 because that is a mercury emission line. It is higher energy than the dna activation energy, but the rest will be dissipated as heat
[23:44:09] <fenn> but what wavelength does the dna actually absorb at?
[23:45:18] <les_w> Normally the bases are paired by weak hydrogen bonds to the ribose ladder...but 260 ish breks that and creats a covalent bond from base to base
[23:45:54] <les_w> and in so doing majorly fscks up the dna.
[23:46:07] <fenn> no, the base is covalently bonded to the ribose
[23:46:11] <les_w> pity I can't type
[23:46:13] <les_w> hahaha
[23:46:59] <les_w> hydrdrogen bond as I have read fenn
[23:47:14] <fenn> the hydrogen bonds are between the bases
[23:47:15] <les_w> but in any case that bond is broken
[23:47:36] <les_w> and base dimers are formed
[23:47:43] <les_w> really messes things up
[23:47:54] <les_w> usually kills the organism
[23:47:58] <les_w> if it's small
[23:48:00] <fenn> yay
[23:48:25] <fenn> maybe i'm weird but i dont enjoy killing bacteria
[23:48:52] <fenn> just seems like we must be doing something wrong
[23:49:22] <robin_sz> les_w, sounds like it shoudl mess up the DNA a treat .. keep it up and it will either die, or mutuate into somethng 15 feet tall with jaws.
[23:49:36] <les_w> Well, the microbiology is well known. I just have to develop the hardware.
[23:49:52] <les_w> And pull a big engineering/marketing trick.
[23:50:12] <robin_sz> sounds easy ... just a uv bulb and a supply ... how hard is that?
[23:50:14] <jmkasunich> fortunately the possible permutations of DNA that yeild 15 foot tall monsters is greatly outnumbered by the permutations that are non-viable
[23:50:27] <les_w> haha yup
[23:50:45] <robin_sz> jmkasunich, true, but .. given an infinite number of monkeys and typewriters ...
[23:51:17] <les_w> Really this is a marketing gig more than anything.....but it will be much more than a cost engineered low pressure mercury vapor lamp and a ballast
[23:51:33] <robin_sz> if you say so ;)
[23:51:54] <robin_sz> actually, I got a order fro 500 sets of metalwork for some UV lamps this week
[23:52:13] <les_w> I'm paid to make magic tricks....not source light bulbs
[23:52:19] <les_w> haha
[23:52:42] <jmkasunich> maybe you're paid to make sourcing light bulbs look like a magic trick?
[23:52:59] <les_w> uh....hmmm...yeah jmk
[23:53:06] <les_w> hahaha
[23:55:29] <les_w> I am dying to talk about the magic trick but cannot
[23:55:40] <les_w> one disadvantage of working alone
[23:57:39] <les_w> I'm hoping it's something the likes of Ron Popiel would be proud of