#emc | Logs for 2006-05-28

[00:03:49] <fenn> Jymmm: some people are allergic to electricity doncha know
[00:21:42] <giacus> /me ZZzzZZzzzzz
[00:21:50] <giacus> * giacus ZZzzZZzz
[00:23:20] <Jymmm> fenn: No, no, it's not electric, it's a drip coffee maker that fits on your camp stove (with glass decanter)
[00:23:55] <Jymmm> The ONLY glass I ever take camping contains brandy or cognac
[00:24:43] <Jymmm> camp coffee really isnt' that hard at all if you know the trick
[00:24:49] <Jymmm> and damn good too
[00:25:28] <Jymmm> G'night giacus
[00:25:39] <giacus> *_*
[00:25:43] <giacus> I'm here
[00:26:02] <giacus> a goos strong coffe would be nice now
[00:26:09] <giacus> good
[00:27:11] <giacus> I captured some desktop session with vnc2swf
[00:27:40] <giacus> wal looking for a way to convert the swf in avi now ..
[00:27:45] <giacus> was ..
[00:27:55] <giacus> my fingers are tired too :(
[00:31:18] <K4ts> night
[00:31:27] <giacus> night K4ts
[00:45:32] <jepler> are the cheapest amd dual-core CPUs really around $300? (e.g.,
[00:45:38] <jepler> AMD ATHLON 64 X2 3800+ (ADA3800BVBOX) DUAL CORE $297 @ mwave.com)
[00:46:15] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/module_helper/module_helper.c: reorder RTLinux whitelist entries: 'rtl' is a substring of several others, and therefore needs to be after them
[01:11:15] <giacus> WMPhoto, the new JPEG made in Redmond
[01:11:28] <giacus> M$ restart from pictures
[01:11:34] <jepler> yeah I also read about that
[01:11:48] <giacus> will be included in vista
[01:28:12] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/scripts/rtapi.conf.in: add some quoting to avoid a warning from bash on RTLinux systems
[01:31:44] <Jymmm> AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4200+ & ECS K8T890-A Motherboard $329.99
[01:32:04] <Jymmm> AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4400+ & ASUS A8R32-MVP Motherboard $649.99
[01:32:21] <Jymmm> AMD Athlon 64 FX-60 Dual Core Processor & ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe $999.99
[01:33:27] <jepler> Jymmm: yeah those were the kinds of prices I was seeing
[01:33:39] <Jymmm> jepler with mobo?
[01:33:48] <jepler> Jymmm: oh .. I missed that on the first one
[01:33:55] <Jymmm> all three actually
[01:33:55] <jepler> that does improve the deal a bit
[01:34:32] <Jymmm> those price are good till tuesday
[01:34:45] <Jymmm> rices Good Friday, May 26, 2006 Through Tuesday, May 30, 2006
[01:35:31] <jepler> mmm rice
[01:35:36] <jepler> I could do with another thai curry for dinner
[01:35:39] <Jymmm> no rices =)
[01:35:42] <jepler> oh darn
[01:36:12] <Jymmm> jepler though PRICES are from fry's
[01:36:27] <Jymmm> bah those
[01:36:31] <Jymmm> not though
[01:37:18] <Jymmm> Kingston 2GB DDR2 PC4200 Dual SO-DIMM Memory $139.99
[01:37:32] <giacus> G'night
[01:37:41] <Jymmm> g'night giacus
[01:38:31] <Jymmm> jepler any reason you want a amd?
[01:39:01] <jepler> Jymmm: I've consistently been buying AMD over the last 4 desktop systems or so. I'm generally pleased with them.
[01:39:24] <Jymmm> and the dual core?
[01:39:45] <Jymmm> if it was 2mb l2 cache PER core, that I would understand.
[01:39:49] <Jymmm> L2
[01:39:54] <jepler> I am using the fact that emc2 doesn't yet run on dual processor or 64-bit systems in an attempt to justify buying one
[01:40:39] <Jymmm> heh, dual cpu... phooooey
[01:40:39] <jmkasunich> lol
[01:40:59] <jmkasunich> I have two dual CPU boxes here
[01:41:04] <jmkasunich> both P3
[01:41:07] <Jymmm> multiple cpu's dont have very much in respect to raw power
[01:41:26] <Jymmm> the OS and application has to take advantage of that.
[01:41:44] <jmkasunich> for RT stuff they have a significant advantage, IF you can configure the system so the user space code runs on one CPU and leaves the other free for RT code
[01:41:46] <jepler> jmkasunich: I should have asked you to bring one to fest .. but it probably wouldn't have fit in the car
[01:42:06] <jmkasunich> well, the one is only 3.5" high
[01:42:09] <Jymmm> jmkasunich BIG BIG IF =)
[01:42:16] <jmkasunich> (x 19" wide and 24" deep ;-)
[01:42:26] <jepler> hurry! you have less than 15 minutes! http://cgi.ebay.com/Linux-CNC-Computer-Numeric-Control-LinuxCNC-EMC-BOOTCD_W0QQitemZ7245010666QQcategoryZ3771QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[01:42:34] <Jymmm> 2U
[01:43:30] <jmkasunich> heh, thats bdi-live
[01:43:43] <jmkasunich> that guy's been selling it on ebay for at least a year
[01:43:52] <jmkasunich> I remember seeing the pic with the beer bottles
[01:44:18] <Jymmm> someone should copyright violate his ass
[01:44:25] <jepler> http://cgi.ebay.com/LINUX-BOOT-CD-CNC-LINUXCNC-SOFTWARE-MILLING-LATHES-EMC2_W0QQitemZ7243612352QQcategoryZ3771QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[01:44:36] <jepler> LINUXCNC - a bootable CD, based on UBUNTU Linux LiveCD, that let you run the EMC2 software (included) WITHOUT INSTALLING on your PC.
[01:44:44] <jepler> alex_joni: you're *ahem* famous
[01:45:17] <cradek> that was fast
[01:45:25] <jmkasunich> jepler: so are you
[01:45:33] <jmkasunich> the servo-etch
[01:45:47] <Jymmm> jepler blackbeltcd.com
[01:45:51] <jepler> oh yep I didn't actually read the description that far
[01:46:15] <jmkasunich> that is alex's live CD right?
[01:46:26] <Jymmm> Hosted by www.OctagonConsulting.net
[01:46:35] <Jymmm> both are the same guy
[01:47:04] <jepler> jmkasunich: I assume it is .. I don't know what else it would be
[01:47:30] <jmkasunich> I guess selling the CDs is legit, right?
[01:47:50] <jmkasunich> its a service to those who can't download/burn the iso.... (sort of)
[01:47:54] <Jymmm> if he provides the source code upon request it is
[01:48:00] <jepler> yeah, it can be perfectly legit
[01:48:41] <Jymmm> But, if I add acopyrighted image to CVS and he sells the cd, I can bust his ass =)
[01:49:09] <jepler> If you put something in CVS that isn't GPL, we're the ones that are going to bust your ass
[01:49:13] <jepler> (and then remove it)
[01:49:39] <Jymmm> Hey, I can dual license it, and STILL remains copyright
[01:49:40] <jepler> *ahem* sorry
[01:50:03] <Jymmm> gpl if downloaded, commercial if distributed via media
[01:50:07] <asdfqwega> Bollux.
[01:50:46] <asdfqwega> linux-source- from paul won't compile using kernel-package
[01:51:01] <asdfqwega> says it can't find debian/rules
[01:51:06] <jepler> asdfqwega: none of paul's packages seem to build in the normal way
[01:51:38] <jepler> asdfqwega: if it's important to you, please ask on the bdi4emc-help list.
[01:52:06] <asdfqwega> jepler: if you don't mind my asking, what happened between you guys and paul?
[01:52:32] <Jymmm> Heh, that guy selling cd's is about 40 minutes away from me
[01:52:59] <jmkasunich> asdfqwega, thats a long story
[01:54:04] <asdfqwega> Well, if there's going to be glitches like this in all of paul's packages, I'm starting to see I shall need to make my own
[01:54:08] <jepler> asdfqwega: I wish I could explain it, because if I knew what was at the root of this problem with Paul I could try to make peace with him
[01:55:46] <Jymmm> BOTH you guys sound so "stiff" on the mailing list. Yeah, I said... whatcha gonna do about it???
[01:56:13] <jepler> Jymmm: me and paul? In my case, at least, it's because I have to rewrite everything to take out all the obscenities and ad-hominem attacks.
[01:56:53] <jmkasunich> Paul disagreed very strongly with some of the decisions that were made last year at the EMC fest at NIST
[01:57:08] <jmkasunich> in particular he dislikes HAL, and is unhappy that it is included in EMC2
[01:57:16] <jmkasunich> (there are other issues as well)
[01:57:28] <jepler> asdfqwega: fwiw i recently added some notes about rebuilding cradek's realtime kernel and rtai modules on ubuntu. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UbuntuBreezyPackages
[01:57:36] <jmkasunich> so he took the BDI in a direction that he prefers, which he has every right to do
[01:57:50] <jepler> asdfqwega: they can't be far wrong because I did manage to rebuild a kernel with a few tweaks for my laptop (though I didn't rebuild the rtai modules)
[01:58:28] <jepler> asdfqwega: if you're trying to use bdi or debian sarge, though, it may not be too helpful.
[01:58:32] <Jymmm> I like ALL of you bastards (most of the time), I just wish there wasn't all this animosity in the air.
[01:58:36] <cradek> paul doesn't have the right to distribute gpl software in a way that's not in line with the gpl.
[01:59:21] <cradek> that's not simply "taking bdi in a direction"
[01:59:29] <jmkasunich> true
[01:59:39] <jmkasunich> I was trying to be as generous as possible
[02:00:37] <jmkasunich> the fact is that any changes to the BDI version of EMC must meet with Paul's approval, and it is difficult or impossible for someone to get it and do what they wish with it
[02:00:37] <cradek> I understand
[02:00:49] <asdfqwega> Well, the upshot of my "bollux" is that I wanted to use ndiswrapper on a debain stable/testing system, on which I've installed paul's packages
[02:01:00] <Jymmm> you can take any source code, use it as a guideline, and make enough changes that it becomes a new works.
[02:01:21] <asdfqwega> Which I can't do because he uses gcc-2.95 with his kernel, and ndiswrapper needs at least gcc-3.4
[02:01:41] <asdfqwega> trying to proceed with the difference makes modules that won't load
[02:01:42] <jepler> asdfqwega: you could try asking -- he went to some effort to get some wireless chipset working for one user
[02:01:46] <cradek> Jymmm: sorry, but I think you don't know what you're talking about there
[02:03:11] <asdfqwega> Well, it's a long weekend - time for steaks and Royal Crown Special Reserve
[02:03:15] <jepler> asdfqwega: if you don't mind being reduced to begging for what should be your right.
[02:03:22] <jepler> asdfqwega: see you around
[02:03:33] <Jymmm> cradek emc is so spaghetti that if someone took the time to break it down, leanr what everything means (TP iirc) and they could create a new works that wouldn't be under any GPL (as example). Think watercolor Mono Lisa
[02:03:40] <asdfqwega> jepler: I'm too ornery to beg - I'll figure it out
[02:04:12] <jepler> asdfqwega: please put anything you learn on that "ourproject" wiki page
[02:04:18] <SkunkWorks> sorry - where was the rtai latency test?
[02:04:33] <asdfqwega> night, guys - have a cold one :)
[02:04:36] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: thats true of just about anything - if you take it apart far enough that you completely understand how it works, you can rebuild it from scratch without using any of the old parts
[02:04:41] <jepler> SkunkWorks: on ubuntu, cd /usr/realtime-2.6.12-magma/testsuite/kern/latency/; sudo ./rudo ./run
[02:04:49] <jepler> er, "sudo ./run"
[02:04:53] <cradek> mkdir /dev/rtf; mknod /dev/rtf/3 c 150 3; cd /usr/realtime*/testsuite/kern/latency; ./run
[02:04:58] <jmkasunich> but in the case of EMC, that might well take many man years
[02:04:58] <jepler> oh yeah, mknod
[02:05:09] <Jymmm> jmkasunich Yeha, that's all I was saying in respect to nbeing limited on "gpl rules"
[02:05:10] <jepler> bbl guys
[02:05:11] <Burgundavia> LawrenceG, you around?
[02:05:23] <Jymmm> and distribution
[02:06:17] <SkunkWorks> thanks
[02:07:08] <Jymmm> Man, they are coming down in price finally... $170 (no rebates) 17" LCD (1280x1024)
[02:10:29] <Jymmm> Hmmmm that cd guy on ebay gives a 14 day money back, will even refund shipping too.
[02:13:07] <SkunkWorks> drilling 289 holes in my vac table top. This is going to take a bit ;)
[02:13:28] <Jymmm> SkunkWorks: 47 minutes, tops
[02:14:46] <SkunkWorks> thinking around 30 min
[02:15:21] <Jymmm> took me longer than that
[02:15:45] <Jymmm> let me count
[02:16:20] <Jymmm> 144 1/4" holes in 35 minutes
[02:16:39] <cradek> * cradek wants a vacuum table
[02:16:47] <Jymmm> blind holes peck drilling
[02:17:06] <Jymmm> I'd build a vac table, but no vac pump
[02:17:07] <SkunkWorks> hope to make a circuit board tonight :)
[02:17:32] <SkunkWorks> awfull lot of work just to get to that point. I must be doing something wrong :)
[02:17:39] <Jymmm> has anyone used a venturi pump?
[02:17:54] <cradek> SkunkWorks: that's what I'm trying to do tonight too
[02:17:56] <Jymmm> they're cheap !$15
[02:18:25] <SkunkWorks> waste a lot of compressed air - wouldn't you?
[02:18:46] <Jymmm> I dont know, never used one. was wondering if anyone here has
[02:19:35] <SkunkWorks> don't know either.
[02:20:07] <SkunkWorks> had to take around .025 thousands off the top of the maple plywood to make it flat.
[02:20:53] <SkunkWorks> o-word loop for facing was nice. I am sure there is a canned cycle - but I didn't want to look
[02:21:09] <jepler> cradek: did you hear the suggestion at fest to stick gum in 3 of the 4 slots and suck vacuum out of the 4th .. the perfboard being the pre-drilled vacuum table?
[02:21:32] <jepler> SkunkWorks: there's not a canned cycle for facing
[02:21:37] <cradek> no, but that's interesting
[02:21:48] <jmkasunich> the t-slots you mean?
[02:21:54] <cradek> ideally I'd be able to suck on all 3 of the slots
[02:21:58] <cradek> yeah
[02:22:08] <cradek> actually there's probably tape in the way on mine now
[02:22:14] <cradek> but that could be fixed
[02:22:21] <cradek> hmmmmmmmmm
[02:22:24] <jmkasunich> how's the vacuum gonna get to the parts of the perf that aren't above a slot?
[02:22:33] <cradek> it wouldn't
[02:22:36] <jmkasunich> I think you need a plenum of sorts under the perf
[02:22:37] <Jymmm> what slots?
[02:22:42] <cradek> yeah ideally
[02:22:53] <cradek> t-slots
[02:23:05] <Jymmm> ah
[02:24:21] <Jymmm> I was thinking about having an inner and outer cavities then you can use as much or little vacuum depending on the surface size of the material
[02:32:46] <SkunkWorks> drill started to pull out of the router - oops. Have a small slot where I didn't want it. Oh well
[02:32:50] <SkunkWorks> still will work
[02:38:42] <Jymmm> dont ya hate when that happens?!
[02:39:02] <SkunkWorks> :)
[02:39:33] <Jymmm> I always hate when I forget to rezero the axis' when I shift over
[02:41:49] <Jymmm> This cockatiel won't stay on my shoulder anymore.... HAS to go check out the keyboard all the time... is fasinated with it
[03:12:41] <SkunkWorks> cutting circuit board
[03:13:53] <SkunkWorks> those tinker cutters look nice. no burr that I can see
[03:14:06] <SkunkWorks> don't want to stick my finger in there yet ;)
[03:18:28] <cradek> yes they leave a very nice edge when sharp
[03:19:12] <SkunkWorks> find out if I can register this. I made an cut on the table with the tinker bit - I am going to use as the line up to flip it.
[03:19:25] <SkunkWorks> if that made sense ;)
[03:19:44] <SkunkWorks> using a g55 offset also to the table location - cool
[03:20:16] <cradek> I like to put a parallel against the back of the table to align one edge of the pcb
[03:20:34] <cradek> then when I flip I can put that same edge against it - so there's no rotation problem.
[03:21:15] <SkunkWorks> I should have done that - one strait edge - next time
[04:22:03] <jmkasunich> bedtime
[04:23:50] <SkunkWorks> well - looks like the table is flat enough and the vaccum is strong.
[04:24:29] <SkunkWorks> only went through 2 cutters :o. No comment.
[04:28:14] <SkunkWorks> good first start I guess
[04:37:48] <cradek> so you still have 8 left?
[04:38:29] <cradek> my board (first one I've made in a while) turned out nicely
[04:41:47] <SkunkWorks> nice.
[04:41:54] <SkunkWorks> yes 8
[04:41:59] <SkunkWorks> :)
[04:42:09] <SkunkWorks> what where you making?
[04:51:55] <cradek> the driver for my lathe
[04:52:11] <cradek> two servo drivers and three quadrature (encoder) dividers
[04:53:23] <cradek> with luck I should be able to move motors tomorrow, and then the mechanical parts will come Tuesday
[04:54:12] <SkunkWorks> nice
[04:55:07] <cradek> I hope it works, it's all quite untested
[04:55:19] <cradek> well I prototyped the divider, I'm pretty sure about that part
[04:57:15] <SkunkWorks> what did you use for the divide by?
[04:57:37] <cradek> the circuit can do /4 /8 and /16, it looks like I need /16
[04:58:11] <cradek> the encoders on these motors are pretty high res (not sure exactly but I bet they are 1024 line)
[04:58:55] <SkunkWorks> going to use the psudo pwm out of freqgen?
[04:59:00] <cradek> yes
[04:59:11] <SkunkWorks> cool.
[04:59:24] <cradek> just like I used for the spindle speed on the other lathe
[04:59:46] <SkunkWorks> ok this is for your little laith
[05:00:02] <cradek> yes my small sherline (not the big borrowed one)
[05:00:19] <SkunkWorks> does the board also have control for the spindle?
[05:00:39] <cradek> no, and it's out of outputs, so I'd have to use a second parport
[05:00:44] <SkunkWorks> ah
[05:00:53] <cradek> I had to use the parport in "input" mode so there are only four outputs
[05:02:17] <cradek> wow it's late already, I'm off
[05:02:19] <cradek> goodnight
[05:02:26] <SkunkWorks> night
[05:39:30] <fenn> hmmm.. he's using a 5000 pound k&t mill to make circuit boards?
[05:39:52] <fenn> the ridiculosity of that didnt quite hit me til just now
[06:31:40] <Jymmm> eh, better than nothing I guess.
[08:08:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> mornin'
[08:15:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Submit you Fenn photos so we can complete our copy-n-paste fenn doll
[08:15:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh, what is that all about?
[08:51:03] <fenn> you'd have to ask jymmm i think
[08:58:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh, o
[08:58:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> *ok
[09:01:29] <fenn> think he was referring to the fact that i'm not in this picture: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/cncworkshopemc.JPG
[09:06:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what does that have to do with a "fenn doll"?
[09:07:24] <fenn> well who doesn't want a fenn doll? i could use a couple more of me around
[09:07:37] <fenn> if only as decoys
[09:17:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> point taken
[09:52:45] <chinamill> anyone know where to find that hardware efficiency info on rtai?
[09:53:08] <anonimasu> google
[09:53:12] <chinamill> :)
[09:54:22] <anonimasu> https://www.rtai.org/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=viewDocument&JAS_Document_id=21
[10:00:56] <alex_joni> morning
[10:01:16] <anonimasu> morning
[10:02:33] <chinamill> hello
[10:03:30] <chinamill> thanks anonimasu, you search better than, me... Only one board tested thou, the chipset 0815 is reported to be fine
[10:03:53] <anonimasu> :)
[10:03:58] <anonimasu> there should be more somewhere
[10:06:10] <alex_joni> https://www.rtai.org/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=downloadFile&JAS_File_id=42
[10:07:11] <chinamill> it's the same one.... only one board tested
[10:08:05] <alex_joni> http://issaris.org/rtai/list.php
[10:08:24] <alex_joni> http://issaris.org/rtai/list_distinct_cpus.php
[10:09:30] <alex_joni> http://issaris.org/rtai/summary.php <- best results
[10:09:53] <alex_joni> the best latency result was an P3-1GHz-256MB
[10:10:40] <alex_joni> http://issaris.org/rtai/download.php <- get the liveCd and try out your new hardware before buying..
[10:11:03] <chinamill> that was more intresting, thanks
[10:11:32] <alex_joni> too bad rtai.org was reorganized, which makes it so hard to find ;)
[10:16:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> does anyone here know how to set up steptype 2 (in core stepper.hal and so on)
[10:18:09] <chinamill> what do you mean by "steptype"?
[10:19:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> in the main ini file there is a setting to change the default step/dir to other outputs, among them one that outputs the signal as a ful-step output
[10:29:07] <chinamill> I'm supriced to see the quite big diferences in small hardware changes for the rtai performance
[10:39:22] <chinamill> I'm gonna run a test now, cu
[11:13:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what is maxvel/maxaccel in, units/sec or units/min?
[11:14:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> chinamill: do you know if maxvel/maxaccel is in units/sec or units/min?
[11:16:37] <chinamill> Lerneaen_Hydra: no, sorry I dont know
[11:16:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[11:19:40] <chinamill> max feed rate is often measured in IPM so mm/min could be a possebilety
[11:20:50] <chinamill> for acc I wouldbe surprised if it was not measured with seconds as a base
[11:21:11] <etla> in the ini file they are all /sec
[11:21:29] <etla> either mm/s or in/s depending on what you use
[11:32:38] <giacus> morning
[11:33:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> morning
[11:33:31] <giacus> hi Lerneaen_Hydra
[11:33:37] <giacus> alex_joni: still there ?
[11:34:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> etla or giacus do you know how to set the hal config and hal core to use steptype 2 (phaseA/B instead of step/dir)?
[11:35:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and also if any of you know the possible adress range that pci parports can have (I don't recall the range of 3-4 possible places at the moment)
[11:35:59] <giacus> dmesg | grep parport should help
[11:36:06] <anonimasu> lspci
[11:36:10] <anonimasu> :)
[11:36:25] <anonimasu> should give your the base addy for the card
[11:38:52] <etla> look in the HAL documentation, find the stepgen component, it probably has a parameter which sets steptype
[11:39:49] <giacus> check /emc2/configs/common/core_stepper.hal
[11:39:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pastebin.com/742641
[11:40:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> giacus: I've set steptype to 2 and switched all step/dir to PhaseA/PhaseB, but EMC wont start, it says that there is an error in core_stepper.hal
[11:41:20] <giacus> probably wrong sintax ?
[11:41:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> probably
[11:41:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so I need to find someone who knows how to write it...
[11:41:51] <giacus> tray manually loading the module by halcmd
[11:41:56] <giacus> try
[11:42:01] <giacus> in console
[11:42:05] <chinamill> Lerneaen_Hydra: you can du cat /proc/ioports to get your ports
[11:42:22] <giacus> after you get it working, edit the file
[11:43:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> giacus: the thing is, I've got it to work before, with a different config (that is unfortunately gone)
[11:44:58] <giacus> loadrt stepgen step_type=0,0,0
[11:45:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shouldn't that be step_type=2,2,2?
[11:45:19] <giacus> these are the 3 stepgen generator
[11:45:42] <giacus> depend on what you need
[11:46:03] <giacus> what is step type 2 ?
[11:46:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> steptype 2 is fullstepping (grey code)
[11:46:24] <giacus> try it ..
[11:46:27] <giacus> should work
[11:46:42] <giacus> loadrt stepgen step_type=2,2,2
[11:47:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> i've set the config to that but it still dies when loading
[11:48:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> chinamill: that works, thanks
[11:49:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> when starting it says (in the console): hal:error: pin 'stepgen.0.PhaseA' not found
[11:49:33] <giacus> right
[11:50:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've tested both with "PhaseA" and "XPhaseA"
[11:50:27] <giacus> see the documentation and diagram about steps type 2
[11:50:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which documentation?
[11:50:58] <giacus> I think you have to change more things on core_stepper.hal
[11:51:12] <giacus> to get it properly work with steps type 2
[11:51:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I've changed everything I found that had to do with step/dir to PhaseA/B
[11:51:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> could is be a case issue? (PhaseA/phasea/PhAsEa)
[11:52:33] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: hi
[11:52:45] <alex_joni> one piece of advice ;)
[11:52:52] <alex_joni> try it like this:
[11:52:56] <alex_joni> scripts/realtime start
[11:53:16] <alex_joni> bin/emc_module_helper insert stepgen step_type=2,2,2
[11:53:27] <alex_joni> bin/halcmd show pin stepgen
[11:53:33] <alex_joni> and look at the actual names
[11:53:54] <giacus> Type 2: Quadrature (aka Gray/Grey code)
[11:54:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hi alex, ok, I'll test that
[11:54:23] <giacus> Lerneaen_Hydra: take a look to stepgen.c too
[11:54:40] <giacus> alex_joni: hi, check your mailbox
[11:54:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh, that first line, shouldn't that be etc/init.d/something-i-don't-recall realtime start?
[11:54:48] <alex_joni> the proper name is stepgen.0.phase-A
[11:54:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah!
[11:54:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[11:55:08] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: there is a HAL_Introduction.pdf
[11:55:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is it case sensitive?
[11:55:13] <alex_joni> where most components are described
[11:55:34] <alex_joni> for installed systems it's #/etc/init.d/realtime start'
[11:55:38] <alex_joni> for installed systems it's '/etc/init.d/realtime start'
[11:56:38] <alex_joni> giacus: thanks
[11:56:41] <alex_joni> looks great
[11:57:31] <giacus> np
[11:57:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: it loads now, lets jsut hope the signal is correct ;)
[11:57:58] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: do you have any doubts?
[11:58:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> no, not really
[11:58:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it's worked once before, so it should work now
[11:58:29] <alex_joni> ok then ;)
[11:58:47] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: you consider yourself as a beginner with emc2 .. right?
[11:58:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> more or less
[11:59:13] <alex_joni> may I ask you to look over the emc2 documentation and tell me what you think?
[11:59:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I know the basics, and can do the simpler configs
[11:59:24] <alex_joni> if anything is missing, what isn't fully clear, etc..
[11:59:29] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/EMC2_User_Manual.pdf
[11:59:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the wiki documentation or the pdf?
[11:59:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, ok
[11:59:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I don't recall seeing that manual before
[12:00:05] <alex_joni> also.. any help on documentation is GREATLY apreciated
[12:00:24] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: it's a few weeks old, just put it on the linuxcnc.org website under documentation
[12:00:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[12:01:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I won't be able to look at it in detail today but probably later this week
[12:01:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'll read it through completely
[12:01:39] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: no hurries
[12:01:43] <alex_joni> I bet you won't ;)
[12:01:51] <alex_joni> even I didn't..
[12:02:08] <alex_joni> lots of info there, and maybe some parts are not really interesting to you
[12:02:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[12:02:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it looks good so far though (just skimming through)
[12:02:54] <alex_joni> look at the TOC, and you'll see what I mean
[12:03:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> chapter 4 seems to be the main one that is of lesser interest, the others seem to be useful to me
[12:04:04] <alex_joni> then I'm happy ;)
[12:04:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, a side question: is it possible to use the mouse to jog two axes? x/y in the mouse controls x/y on the machine?
[12:05:26] <alex_joni> not that I know..
[12:05:38] <alex_joni> but there is a joystick driver if you like that..
[12:05:45] <alex_joni> it could perhaps be modified for a mouse too
[12:06:44] <chinamill> Would lirc (ir) remote work with adeos/emc?
[12:07:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds good, the idea with the mouse would be that it would be available to everyone and is more flexible than the keys as you can control the speed easily
[12:07:41] <alex_joni> I'm not that sure about easily...
[12:08:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how so? mocing the mouse more quickly would result in a faster motion, wheras a slow movement would result in a slow move
[12:09:42] <alex_joni> yeah, but you can easily move the mouse with your elbow or whatever
[12:09:52] <alex_joni> maybe have an optical one with a run-away issure
[12:10:00] <alex_joni> lots and lots of potential pitfalls
[12:10:01] <chinamill> Lerneaen_Hydra: I think it would be easyer with the joystick driver, and you ca pick one up for a low price
[12:10:29] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: also, you need to specify it to work only for the GUI, not while you drag your favorite game around the window
[12:10:43] <alex_joni> or maybe have a second USB mouse only for jogging, and not register it to X
[12:12:17] <chinamill> is there any info, yet how to set up a joystik for jogging?
[12:13:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: good point
[12:13:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> but the same things apply to a joystick (if you have two mice)
[12:13:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you can knock it and so on
[12:13:45] <chinamill> I guees there are not yet any hal signals to connent the jouystick to?
[12:14:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how do you change the defualt folder for axis to open programs?
[12:15:03] <alex_joni> chinamill: there is a userspace app for a joystick
[12:15:04] <chinamill> Lerneaen_Hydra: if you are talking about g-pgms it is in the ini
[12:15:06] <alex_joni> with proper pins
[12:15:11] <alex_joni> so you can link them
[12:16:15] <chinamill> alex_joni: any documantation?
[12:17:02] <alex_joni> chinamill: mostly in the source code ;)
[12:17:08] <chinamill> :)
[12:17:28] <alex_joni> be controlled by a joystick. It uses standard Linux methods to
[12:17:28] <alex_joni> access the joystick, and should work with any joystick that Linux
[12:17:28] <alex_joni> recognizes. It is a user space program, so there is no hard
[12:17:28] <alex_joni> realtime guarantee, but under all but the worst loading it is
[12:17:28] <alex_joni> quite responsive.
[12:17:31] <alex_joni> */
[12:17:36] <chinamill> alex_joni: do you know in wich source to look?
[12:17:44] <alex_joni> chinamill: actually I do ;)
[12:18:37] <alex_joni> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/src/hal/user_comps/devices/hal_joystick.c?rev=1.2;content-type=text%2Fplain
[12:18:44] <chinamill> thanks
[12:19:54] <alex_joni> np
[12:23:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how do you set (in axis) something that would be "set current position for X as 10"
[12:23:46] <alex_joni> you can always use MDI
[12:24:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what I meant was that the X axis does not move, but it sets position that the X axis is in to a different value
[12:24:58] <alex_joni> or.. by reading page #71 of the User Manual ;)
[12:25:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> like offset except that instead of 0 it's a predefined value
[12:25:05] <K4ts> hi alex_joni
[12:25:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shh! ;)
[12:25:18] <alex_joni> Shift-Home sets a G54 offset for active axis
[12:25:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah!, ok
[12:25:52] <alex_joni> so you probably need to go to 10", then use Shift-Home
[12:26:02] <alex_joni> hi K4ts
[12:26:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, that just zeros it
[12:26:36] <alex_joni> Home zeroes it
[12:26:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is there any way to not have to move the 10"?
[12:26:53] <alex_joni> only if you do a manual MDI code
[12:26:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so that I input the current position
[12:27:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what would that code look like?
[12:27:22] <etla> g92x10
[12:27:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, G92
[12:27:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[12:27:56] <alex_joni> or G10 L2 P1 X10
[12:28:10] <alex_joni> I think..
[12:28:14] <alex_joni> but.. RTFM ;)
[12:28:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra is not used to the RS274 syntax, after having used a Seimens 840D for a long time
[12:28:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is happy to be able to say that: RTFM !!! ;-)
[12:30:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I don't really get the connection between G10 and G92
[12:31:16] <alex_joni> read section 10.6 ,)
[12:31:32] <alex_joni> In the RS274/NGC language view, a machining center has an absolute coordinate system and nine
[12:31:36] <alex_joni> program coordinate systems.
[12:31:38] <alex_joni> You can set the offsets of the nine program coordinate systems using G10 L2 Pn (n is the number
[12:31:41] <alex_joni> of the coordinate system) with values for the axes in terms of the absolute coordinate system. See
[12:31:44] <alex_joni> Section 12.6.
[12:31:47] <alex_joni> You can select one of the nine systems by using G54, G55, G56, G57, G58, G59, G59.1, G59.2, or
[12:31:50] <alex_joni> G59.3 (see Section 12.14). It is not possible to select the absolute coordinate system directly.
[12:31:53] <alex_joni> You can offset the current coordinate system using G92 or G92.3. This offset will then apply to all
[12:31:56] <alex_joni> nine program coordinate systems. This offset may be cancelled with G92.1 or G92.2. See Section
[12:32:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, nine seperate... ok
[12:32:17] <alex_joni> so you can use both..
[12:32:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then that explains the existance of the two different ones
[12:32:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> G92 seems to be the simplest if you only need one coord system
[12:32:50] <alex_joni> right
[12:39:30] <Evert> hi there!
[12:39:32] <K4ts> alex you see la boheme?
[12:39:49] <alex_joni> K4ts: not recently
[12:39:50] <Evert> quick question
[12:39:52] <alex_joni> hi Evert
[12:40:03] <K4ts> giacomo diglielo
[12:40:06] <K4ts> che c 'è l ho
[12:40:11] <K4ts> se la vuole
[12:40:17] <K4ts> anche otello e aida
[12:40:26] <Evert> I'm reading the lyx files from wiki
[12:40:38] <alex_joni> Evert: from the wiki?
[12:40:55] <K4ts> I go byeeeeeeeeeeeee
[12:41:01] <Evert> alex_joni: yes... am I not supposed to do that?
[12:41:07] <alex_joni> not sure .. :)
[12:41:15] <alex_joni> I always thought the lyx files are in CVS
[12:41:37] <Evert> ai sorry, that's what I meant... I'm not really here yet ;)
[12:41:44] <alex_joni> Evert: no problem ;)
[12:41:45] <Evert> so, from cvs
[12:41:48] <alex_joni> right..
[12:42:11] <Evert> well. i'm new to lyx... where can I find the pictures?
[12:42:24] <alex_joni> they are in documents/images
[12:42:33] <alex_joni> but if you checkout the whole module, then you should be set
[12:43:08] <alex_joni> cvs -z5 -d:ext:anon@cvs.linuxcnc.org:/cvs co documents
[12:43:38] <Evert> alright! that's what I'm looking for. I'm trying...
[12:43:42] <alex_joni> that way you'll get all of it..
[12:51:58] <alex_joni> Evert: I think you had a question about NML and remote setups the other day?
[12:52:44] <Evert> ... giving this doc thing up. I'm trying from my homecomputer (windows). seems the windows cvs version doesn't work the same way. I'll try again tomorrow from work. thanks though!
[12:53:08] <Evert> privmsg
[12:53:30] <Evert> alright, then no private msg :-)
[12:53:55] <Evert> anyway, yes, I do have some questions for remote NML stuff
[12:54:41] <Evert> but right now I can't test anything, emc is running at work and we've shut the stuf down so I can't get to it right now
[12:56:18] <Evert> short summary would be: we eventually want to couple two emc2's together through NML. first step is to get a UI running remote, so we can find out the ins and outs of how the stuff works
[12:56:19] <alex_joni> you can use /msg for private messages
[12:56:28] <alex_joni> that's pretty easy
[12:56:56] <alex_joni> if you're ok with tkemc for now.. then you can use a windows GUI right now
[12:57:06] <Evert> we couldn't get it to work properly though...
[12:57:10] <Evert> alright, lets try
[12:57:21] <alex_joni> what didn't work?
[12:58:27] <alex_joni> what's the long term plan?
[12:58:36] <alex_joni> why do you want 2 emc2 working together?
[12:59:32] <Evert> well, we have two machines running EMC2, one connected to a milling machine through a motenc interface. in the ini file of the server we specified to use the server nml file, and start the server. on the client side we specify client.nml in the motenc ini file and try to start tkemc.tcl -ini configs/motenc/motenc.ini
[12:59:44] <Evert> press enter, and nothing happens
[12:59:52] <alex_joni> you need to run emcsh
[13:00:02] <alex_joni> emcsh tkemc.tcl ...
[13:00:12] <Evert> tried that too
[13:00:22] <Evert> says emctk.tcl has an error
[13:00:33] <alex_joni> tkemc.tcl..
[13:00:40] <Evert> sorry, that's it
[13:00:42] <alex_joni> can you do that once when you're at the machine?
[13:00:47] <alex_joni> so I can see the actual error?
[13:00:51] <alex_joni> or maybe mail it to me?
[13:01:02] <Evert> yes, for sure, first thing tomorrow
[13:01:14] <alex_joni> ok.. I see you are in .hu.. right?
[13:01:25] <Evert> yes
[13:01:26] <alex_joni> so only one timezone away..
[13:01:39] <Evert> yep! not to far away actually
[13:01:46] <alex_joni> where exactly?
[13:01:53] <Evert> in budapest right now
[13:02:02] <alex_joni> oh, cool.. that's 4h or less
[13:02:07] <alex_joni> driving I mean
[13:02:31] <Evert> where are you right now?
[13:02:36] <alex_joni> temesvar
[13:02:48] <alex_joni> ~90km from szeged
[13:02:52] <Evert> isn't that a hungarian part of romania?
[13:03:14] <Evert> that is pretty close
[13:03:16] <alex_joni> it used to belong to austria-hungary
[13:03:26] <Evert> so do you speak any hungarian?
[13:03:37] <alex_joni> not as much as I should..
[13:03:48] <alex_joni> actually almost none at all.. :/
[13:03:56] <alex_joni> I'm 25% hungarian though ;)
[13:04:05] <Evert> :-) me niether... I've been here for almost two years, and still can't have a normal level conversation
[13:04:28] <alex_joni> where from?
[13:04:39] <Evert> holland
[13:05:00] <alex_joni> cool, but I don't speak any hollandisch either :/
[13:05:31] <Evert> :) well, that makes us even... my romanian couls use some work too
[13:05:46] <Evert> although, i guess ciao works for you guys? :-)
[13:06:00] <alex_joni> it kidna does ;)
[13:06:05] <alex_joni> most italian is very similar
[13:07:13] <Evert> i know a couple of romanian girls, they tell me they can talk to and understand italians
[13:07:34] <alex_joni> I bet you do :-)
[13:08:00] <Evert> no temesvar on map24
[13:08:31] <alex_joni> timisoara
[13:08:39] <alex_joni> temesvar is the hungarian name for it
[13:08:47] <alex_joni> temeswar the german one
[13:08:48] <Evert> alright, lets see
[13:09:18] <Evert> you're spotted :)
[13:09:54] <Evert> actually, i also work in belgrade... that's a lot closer even
[13:10:14] <alex_joni> yup, 1.5h or so
[13:10:50] <Evert> i hear there's a really cool festival somewhere near novi sad, amazing artists, good music... have you ever heard about this? I'd love to check that out..
[13:11:09] <alex_joni> nope.. never heard
[13:17:51] <Evert> now i'm here anyway, do you mind giving some advice on what we're trying to do by coupling two emc2s?
[13:18:41] <alex_joni> no problem..
[13:18:51] <alex_joni> but do you really want to couple 2 emc2s?
[13:18:55] <alex_joni> or just use 2 gui's ?
[13:19:10] <Evert> yes, two emc2's, one UI
[13:19:17] <alex_joni> emc2+local gui & remote gui
[13:19:23] <alex_joni> oh.. I see
[13:19:40] <alex_joni> it will be a bit hard to do.. why not have 2 guis remotely?
[13:19:46] <alex_joni> one for each machine?
[13:20:03] <Evert> two emc's on two computers controlling two machines, one remote GUI
[13:20:25] <alex_joni> that's what I mean.. but having 2 remote GUIs, one for each machine
[13:21:20] <Evert> well, that's a matter of implementation, but the matter is that the movement of one machine needs to be based on the movement and sensor feedback from the other machine
[13:21:23] <alex_joni> if you have only one central GUI, then you need to figure out how to load files on each machine, etc
[13:21:40] <alex_joni> oh.. then it's a bit harder
[13:21:47] <alex_joni> what timing restraints do you have?
[13:22:15] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is afraid NML won't be fast enough
[13:22:16] <Evert> it needs to be pretty tight, but we have no exact numbers yet
[13:22:28] <alex_joni> no need for RT?
[13:22:35] <Evert> that's my concern too
[13:22:44] <Evert> yes, definately need for rt
[13:22:52] <alex_joni> the alternative is to make some aditional HAL modules
[13:23:03] <alex_joni> maybe something like a HAL-HAL link over RT-Ethernet
[13:23:12] <Evert> how can we get communication going then?
[13:23:31] <alex_joni> this is only for certain signals (liek sensor feedback, etc)
[13:23:45] <alex_joni> but RT-Ethernet is not very trivial
[13:23:53] <Evert> we were thinking we could couple two motion controllers
[13:24:01] <Evert> through nml
[13:24:05] <alex_joni> you would need another interface for the normal ethernet and remote GUI
[13:24:55] <alex_joni> hm... I'm afraid I'd need more details to be able to advice you..
[13:25:01] <alex_joni> not sure if you can provide those ;)
[13:27:46] <chinamill> Evert: Wow, what kind of mashine are you planning to run?
[13:30:38] <chinamill> is it 2 mills or another coblination of machines?
[13:36:46] <chinamill> Evert: if the computers that run the machines are close togeather, you could set up an extra par port on both mashined to exchange signals. (I don't know if that is easyer than using RTethernet.
[13:44:00] <alex_joni> chinamill: sounds like a good idea
[13:44:08] <alex_joni> or maybe some analog signals from the motend
[13:44:11] <alex_joni> motenc
[13:45:24] <chinamill> alex_joni: how would you transfer a analog signal? (sound card d/a ehh?)
[13:45:30] <alex_joni> no.. motnec
[13:45:33] <alex_joni> motenc
[13:45:41] <alex_joni> that's a card with DAC's on it
[13:45:58] <chinamill> ahh, sorry misunderstod... I'm with you
[13:47:36] <chinamill> how many axis can EMC2 handle? more than 8?
[13:48:51] <alex_joni> not right now
[13:48:57] <alex_joni> the motion controller could do 8
[13:49:03] <alex_joni> and the g-code interface only 6
[13:49:13] <chinamill> ok
[13:49:22] <alex_joni> but it could be extended if needed
[13:55:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> those limits are semi-arbitrary i take it?
[13:56:05] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: code limits
[13:56:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> code limits?
[13:56:41] <alex_joni> at least the motion controller (rewritten a few years ago) has some nice #define's for that
[13:56:53] <alex_joni> so simply change a few locations and you should have more than 8 axes
[13:58:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, how many axes are needed to stress the RT system? (it's dependant on hardware and so on, yes, but would something like 50 axes be even remotely possible?)
[13:58:15] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: depends on the method of control
[13:58:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Not that I can think of a use for 50 axes, but nevertheless ;)
[13:58:22] <alex_joni> step/dir axes probably not
[13:58:40] <alex_joni> servo axes (with something like 1msec servo rate might be probable)
[13:58:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> memory overflow/overallocation?
[13:59:01] <alex_joni> not really an issue these days with multi gig ram
[13:59:15] <alex_joni> although RT over 1GB ram doesn't work ;)
[13:59:20] <alex_joni> but that should be plenty
[13:59:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> doesn't work?
[13:59:57] <alex_joni> no, it gets into the way of kernel handling the memory
[14:00:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh..
[14:00:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's too bad
[14:00:23] <alex_joni> the RT stuff accesses memory directly
[14:00:31] <alex_joni> kernel does some memory management
[14:00:44] <alex_joni> and the over 1G memory stuff is handled somehow strangely in linux
[14:01:02] <alex_joni> the memory over the 1G will be first relocated into sub 1G space, then addressed
[14:01:20] <alex_joni> and if that happens, and the RT code writes to the same locations it will alter who-knows what
[14:01:25] <alex_joni> and the whole stuff will crumble
[14:02:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds nasty
[14:03:00] <alex_joni> it is..
[14:17:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: at the bottom of page 104, shouldn't it be G20, G21 instead of G21, G21
[14:17:42] <alex_joni> oh.. let me check..
[14:18:00] <alex_joni> yeap.. you're right
[14:18:04] <alex_joni> thanks
[14:22:38] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/gcode.lyx: typo discovered by Lerneaen_Hydra
[14:23:51] <chinamill> Lerneaen_Hydra: Your now famous!
[14:24:07] <alex_joni> world famous.. the CIA knows about you..
[14:25:28] <etla> anyone want to see the worlds ugliest AC servodrive ?
[14:25:36] <etla> ;)
[14:26:37] <chinamill> why ont :)
[14:26:41] <chinamill> not
[14:26:56] <etla> http://electronics.physics.helsinki.fi/personal/awallin/pic2.jpg
[14:27:06] <etla> here you see the motor and the powersupplies also
[14:27:15] <etla> http://electronics.physics.helsinki.fi/personal/awallin/pic1.jpg
[14:27:19] <chinamill> Hardcore!
[14:27:23] <etla> got the motor spinning for the first time today
[14:27:43] <etla> the rpm is not exactly adjustable yet, but at least it spins
[14:28:02] <etla> the powerstage will need lots of cooling, gets quite hot while running the motor <1 min
[14:28:04] <chinamill> looks like a microcontroller there.. what are you using?
[14:28:12] <etla> dsPIC 30F3011
[14:28:52] <chinamill> It a nice prototype!
[14:29:11] <chinamill> Have you concidered to buy a breadbord?
[14:29:19] <etla> yeah, when this works acceptably I need to build a proto v.2
[14:29:24] <chinamill> breadboard?
[14:29:30] <chinamill> :)
[14:29:36] <etla> yeah I got those also but this works too...
[14:29:55] <chinamill> sure... a more permanent way
[14:30:18] <chinamill> have you connected it to emc yet?
[14:30:34] <etla> nope, several different options how to hook it up
[14:30:39] <etla> don't know which one to use yet
[14:30:50] <etla> I'm getting a mesa 5i20 card for the mill
[14:31:23] <chinamill> ok
[14:31:38] <etla> hopefully 16-bit digital speed commands
[14:31:46] <chinamill> how much power kan you put threw this one?
[14:32:16] <etla> there are powerstages for 6A, 10A, 16A and 20A
[14:32:46] <chinamill> :) some power then...
[14:33:04] <etla> so up to something like 2kW with a decent DC voltage
[14:33:08] <chinamill> did you make the powerstage yourself too?
[14:33:13] <etla> however it needs lots and lots of cooling
[14:33:35] <etla> the powerstage is an IRF IRAMS module
[14:35:06] <jepler> etla: that's what's on the right-side board?
[14:36:26] <etla> yes
[14:36:36] <etla> the long thin black thing
[14:36:46] <chinamill> maby you can find a nice aluprofile to use as a heatsink and ad a fan
[14:37:38] <etla> http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irams10up60a.pdf
[14:38:31] <robin_sz> etla: image URL?
[14:38:40] <etla> http://electronics.physics.helsinki.fi/personal/awallin/pic2.jpg
[14:38:42] <etla> and pic1.jpg
[14:39:36] <etla> iirc the heat dissipation was like a good sized light-bulb, max 100W or so, so it should be manageable with a heatsink and a fan
[14:40:03] <robin_sz> 100W is actually a lot ...
[14:40:26] <etla> its not in the datasheet, some app note or tip, I'll try to find it...
[14:41:19] <robin_sz> you'll need to do the calcs .... do you have the value of theta J ?
[14:41:23] <etla> oh... ca 30W per phase dissipation, says so on the front page
[14:42:15] <robin_sz> assume its 100W then, so a 1 deg c / watt heatsink would be at 100 degrees ...
[14:42:32] <etla> that is at Tc=25C, is Tc case temp ?
[14:42:44] <robin_sz> think so
[14:42:51] <robin_sz> Ta is ambient
[14:43:07] <robin_sz> so you need to keep the case at 25C then ...
[14:43:25] <robin_sz> heatsink at maybe 20 then
[14:43:50] <robin_sz> assuming you drp 5 degrees across the case/heatsink junction
[14:44:37] <robin_sz> its just like current flow and ohms law ...
[14:45:01] <robin_sz> you have values of thets for each junction between say, the case and the heatsink
[14:45:10] <etla> the absolute maximum graphs in the datasheet are drawn for Tc=100C
[14:45:19] <robin_sz> the internal device and the case etc
[14:46:00] <etla> maybe around 50-70C would be an OK max for the case, according to the graph on p12 of the datasheet
[14:46:19] <robin_sz> if you know roughly what values of theta you have, you can work out how big a sink you need to keep the junctions below meltdown ...
[14:47:11] <robin_sz> the most important theta is of course the heatsink to air one ... sounds like about 0.2 degrees per watt maybe .. thats a BIG sink
[14:47:39] <etla> J-C thermal resistance is around 5C/W according to the datasheet
[14:48:01] <robin_sz> well, you can see the technique now ... right?
[14:48:10] <chinamill> etla: what is your pwm freq?
[14:48:13] <etla> yeah.
[14:48:28] <etla> now I have it at 16 kHz, I think that is maximum for the IRAMS
[14:48:44] <etla> well 20kHz is maximum
[14:49:02] <etla> higher pwm freq increases dissipation a little bit
[14:53:21] <chinamill> do you use adaptive decay?
[14:53:30] <etla> meaning ?
[14:54:12] <chinamill> a technik to follow a current curve
[14:54:56] <etla> now there is just one pid loop to control speed measured with the hall sensors
[14:55:14] <etla> I have current sensing on two phases but currently the sw does nothing with that
[14:56:53] <chinamill> hall sensoring is nice..
[14:57:26] <etla> the dspic has an encoder interface also, so the idea is to move to that
[14:57:38] <etla> the motors have 2000cpr encoders so 8000 transitions per rev
[15:01:19] <etla> it has an anlog pot to control speed but I can't seem to get it to work...
[15:01:51] <etla> the demo code is for a 10-pole motor but I think this one is only 2 or 4, so my hall timing values are much higher than in the app note...
[15:19:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni yawns
[15:34:54] <alex_joni> fresh stuff on bash.org ;) lol
[15:34:58] <alex_joni> http://www.bash.org/?642195
[15:37:30] <jepler> there are too many words there
[15:38:19] <jmkasunich> alex finds some weird stuff
[15:41:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: wasn't me..
[15:41:26] <alex_joni> but it sure IS weird
[15:41:30] <jmkasunich> you posted it
[15:41:31] <alex_joni> morning guys
[15:41:37] <alex_joni> passed it along ;)
[15:41:46] <alex_joni> imagine #emc looking like that
[15:41:56] <jmkasunich> shudder
[15:41:56] <alex_joni> not that it's very far away now ;)
[15:42:36] <jmkasunich> saw an interesting conversation about a guy wanting to run two machines
[15:42:40] <alex_joni> yes
[15:42:47] <jmkasunich> he didn't really say what he wanted to do tho
[15:42:56] <alex_joni> two synchronized machines
[15:43:01] <alex_joni> one holds the part, one the tool
[15:43:12] <jmkasunich> oh
[15:43:28] <jmkasunich> not ordinary mills I guess
[15:43:29] <jmkasunich> robots?
[15:43:36] <alex_joni> mills for now I think
[15:44:35] <jmkasunich> bummer, still no bids on my KVM (3 watchers tho)
[15:45:31] <alex_joni> what do you want for it?
[15:45:40] <jmkasunich> $10
[15:45:45] <jmkasunich> (starting bid)
[15:47:11] <alex_joni> I'll get it if you don't sell it on ebay ;)
[15:47:25] <jmkasunich> heh, shipping might be a pain
[15:47:54] <alex_joni> right ;)
[15:53:17] <alex_joni> morning matt
[15:53:29] <mshaver> hiya alex!
[15:54:06] <jmkasunich> hi matt
[15:54:16] <mshaver> head you guys over in .ro are having bird flu adventures
[15:54:23] <alex_joni> heh, did you?
[15:54:31] <mshaver> hey john
[15:54:33] <alex_joni> this part is still pretty silent
[15:55:11] <mshaver> yep, on the news, quarantines & free chicken dinners for everybody ;)
[15:57:13] <alex_joni> I'm not sure what to think of that..
[15:57:30] <mshaver> some public officials interviewed were trying to play down the fact that folks were upset at having to stay in their immediate area for 48 hours at a time
[15:58:06] <mshaver> seems a fairly reasonable thing though - I guess they're just being careful
[15:58:29] <alex_joni> yeah, certain areas are quarantined
[15:58:33] <mshaver> just thought I'd bring it up next time I was on IRC with you - small world...
[15:58:42] <alex_joni> indeed.. and getting smaller
[15:59:17] <mshaver> you gotta come over here next year for the CNC workshop!
[16:00:05] <mshaver> we'll put a paypal donation jar on the homepage of linuxcnc.org - "Alex's Plane Fare Fund"
[16:00:46] <mshaver> if were lucky, we might even be able to afford a round trip ;)
[16:00:55] <alex_joni> what for? ;-)
[16:01:13] <dan_falck> alex probably wouldn't mind living in Illinois
[16:01:29] <alex_joni> dan_falck: actually I have no idea how it's there..
[16:01:33] <alex_joni> but I'm pretty adaptable ;)
[16:01:49] <mshaver> it's flat
[16:01:54] <dan_falck> lots of corn
[16:02:48] <alex_joni> mmm, not that interesting ;)
[16:03:09] <alex_joni> lol.. http://www.bash.org/?639797
[16:03:59] <jmkasunich> another one?
[16:04:03] <dan_falck> haiku?
[16:05:30] <dan_falck> so threading on the lathe is fully operational. Matt- do you have a Hardinge that is threading yet?
[16:06:47] <mshaver> not yet, but soon once I update the software, mount the spindle encoder, get moving generally
[16:07:19] <chinamill> Evert: One mill and what is the other machice?
[16:07:33] <dan_falck> I've got a few lathes to retrofit here too
[16:13:19] <mshaver> alex_joni: check your e-mail when you get a chance
[16:15:12] <Evert> chinamill: sorry, send a private message but didn't get through, apparently you need to be registere dto be able to send those
[16:15:38] <Evert> I said: we're testing on only one mill now. other machine is not sure, we might use a robot for tests but the machines we will use need to be determined still
[16:16:02] <chinamill> ok
[16:16:17] <jmkasunich> do you need to use two PCs to control the two machines?
[16:16:46] <chinamill> That's the plan, I think.
[16:17:20] <jmkasunich> I understand that is the plan, but is it because they want to, or because right now you can only run one instance of emc on a PC
[16:17:48] <Evert> yes, we kind of have to. we expect a huge amount of data from material and holders sensors... processing that will take a lot of resources
[16:18:02] <chinamill> Evert: You might want to set up an extra par port on both pc:s and by these get the diferent HAL:s to interact
[16:18:13] <Evert> but really, that's just a matter of implementation
[16:18:36] <jmkasunich> the reason I ask is that hard RT comms between differnet PCs makes things more complex
[16:18:39] <chinamill> (if the pc:s are clode enough)
[16:18:41] <jmkasunich> NML is _not_ hard realtime
[16:18:48] <Evert> chinamill: thanks, that's the type of tip i got from alex... i will definately look into that, seems like a good solution
[16:19:49] <chinamill> It is probable easyer than setting up RT ethernet..
[16:19:58] <Evert> jon: i know. we don't yet know the timing constraints we have to work with, but there are a number of solutions that could make hard rt between two pc's possible
[16:20:09] <Evert> chinamill: i think so
[16:20:30] <jmkasunich> the parport thing is probably easier for some small amount of data between machines
[16:20:41] <jmkasunich> if you need a lot, rt ethernet would be better
[16:20:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> chinamill: woohoo!
[16:21:31] <chinamill> Lerneaen_Hydra: ?
[16:21:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> a while back you said I was famous
[16:22:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I was AFK untill now
[16:52:34] <Evert> Evert is now known as EvertL
[16:58:50] <SkunkWorks> mshaver: It was nice to meet you at the end of the workshop. I was wondering who you were - every time I walked by you seemed to be so focused in programming :)
[17:02:50] <alex_joni> mshaver: thanks a lot for the pics matt
[17:03:05] <jmkasunich> pics of the workshop?
[17:04:02] <alex_joni> SkunkWorks: he's one of the pioneers
[17:04:07] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: the flatland ;)
[17:04:26] <jmkasunich> ah
[17:04:36] <alex_joni> to get myself an idea of the scenery
[17:04:38] <jmkasunich> did you see Skunkworks pic of the emc gang?
[17:04:41] <alex_joni> but it's just like here
[17:04:43] <alex_joni> yeah, I did
[17:04:48] <alex_joni> handsome bunch of guys ;)
[17:04:54] <alex_joni> to quote cradek's saying
[17:04:58] <jmkasunich> heh
[17:05:39] <SkunkWorks> I had no clue who he was. (rayh explained who he was and what role he had played)
[17:06:12] <SkunkWorks> jmk lightened it - it looks a lot better :)
[17:06:21] <alex_joni> SkunkWorks: where are your pictures again?
[17:06:28] <SkunkWorks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/cncworkshop/cncworkshopemc.jpg
[17:06:29] <alex_joni> SkunkWorks: I did that too..
[17:07:29] <SkunkWorks> I should say - I had known who matt shaver was - just didn't know he was at the workshop. :)
[17:07:59] <alex_joni> SkunkWorks: all look kinda orange there...
[17:08:47] <SkunkWorks> looks good to me but I am very color blind :)
[17:09:28] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/emc/cncworkshopemc.JPG <- isn't this a bit better?
[17:10:19] <alex_joni> it's a bit grainy, but I think it's a tiny bit easier to see..
[17:10:46] <SkunkWorks> nice also
[17:13:20] <SkunkWorks> side question - I homing suposed to reset modal godes (after I home g0 isn't active anymore)
[17:13:30] <alex_joni> g0 ?
[17:14:02] <alex_joni> how can G0 be active when the machine is not moving?
[17:15:21] <SkunkWorks> if had been running the machine - (mdi using g0xand y whatever) then I home it - if I go back into mdi - and do a x10 without a the g0 I get an error
[17:15:33] <SkunkWorks> not that it is a big deal - just threw me off. :)
[17:16:16] <SkunkWorks> biab
[17:17:13] <alex_joni> oh.. well, there is a sync() after homing
[17:17:19] <alex_joni> which probably clears stuff like this
[17:17:32] <alex_joni> but I think it's better that it's like this ;)
[17:24:55] <SkunkWorks> ok - just getting used to it.
[17:25:17] <SkunkWorks> home switches are working great
[17:25:56] <alex_joni> http://www.bash.org/?6205 - lol
[17:34:00] <alex_joni> brb
[17:40:52] <cradek> hi all
[17:40:59] <jmkasunich> hi
[17:41:07] <SkunkWorks> soldering?
[17:43:22] <cradek> ?
[17:45:01] <SkunkWorks> your circuit board.
[17:45:08] <cradek> oh not quite yet
[17:45:10] <cradek> but close
[17:45:16] <cradek> just got home from grocery shopping etc
[17:45:19] <cradek> you know, boring stuff
[17:47:01] <cradek> had to stand in line behind 1000 idiots buying bud lite, hamburger buns, and pork-n-beans
[17:47:52] <SkunkWorks> big party weekend
[17:48:14] <cradek> yep
[17:50:22] <SkunkWorks> so after sleeping on it - I can just drill 4 1/8 inch holes 2 to register the bottom edge and the other 2 to register left(botom) and right(top).. Then I just need the 2 offsets to run the top and bottom board.
[17:51:03] <SkunkWorks> alex lightened up the emc photo also http://www.robcon.ro/emc/cncworkshopemc.JPG
[17:51:28] <jmkasunich> heh, I wonder how many other folks we can get to gimp that pic
[17:51:40] <jmkasunich> got to admit the color is better
[17:51:45] <jmkasunich> did he start with the original
[17:51:48] <jmkasunich> ?
[17:51:52] <SkunkWorks> as far as I know.
[17:52:23] <alex_joni> yup
[17:52:25] <alex_joni> I did
[17:52:45] <SkunkWorks> battle of the gimpies
[17:52:49] <alex_joni> lol
[17:52:52] <cradek> hey
[17:53:18] <cradek> oh I thought you meant the contents of the photo, not editing it
[17:53:19] <cradek> haha
[17:53:39] <alex_joni> lol
[17:53:43] <alex_joni> hi chris
[17:53:47] <cradek> hi alex
[17:54:15] <cradek> someone's asking me about my image-to-gcode program, he wants to add tool shape compensation, but I think he wants me to tell him how to do it
[17:54:28] <alex_joni> sounds familiar :)
[17:54:33] <SkunkWorks> well - how do you do it?
[17:54:36] <cradek> I don't know what to tell him except SMOP
[17:54:37] <SkunkWorks> :)
[17:54:56] <alex_joni> he should use emc's tool shape comp.
[17:54:57] <jmkasunich> for some value of S
[17:55:31] <cradek> alex_joni: I'm sure he means for contouring over the image's height map
[17:55:53] <alex_joni> didn't quite get that
[17:56:08] <cradek> imagine a height map (that comes from the image colors)
[17:56:12] <alex_joni> right
[17:56:17] <cradek> there's a deep hole in it that's smaller than the tool radius
[17:56:22] <cradek> you should skip over the top of that hole
[17:56:32] <alex_joni> oh.. I see
[17:56:34] <cradek> because the tool doesn't fit
[17:56:46] <alex_joni> but this means you need the whole tool shape
[17:56:47] <cradek> so you have to know the size/shape of the tool
[17:56:50] <cradek> right
[17:56:55] <cradek> I think that's what he's asking about
[17:57:00] <alex_joni> even if it wears down after a while..
[17:57:03] <alex_joni> sounds tricky :)
[17:57:16] <cradek> not really, I wrote that in 'toolpath'
[17:57:43] <alex_joni> what's 'toolpath'?
[17:58:05] <cradek> my 80%-done program that generates tool paths over 3d models
[17:58:13] <cradek> I meant to show it at workshop but never did
[17:58:15] <alex_joni> oh,., that one
[18:00:56] <cradek> basement workshops are nice when it's hot
[18:01:08] <jmkasunich> yeah
[18:01:14] <alex_joni> we had some very weird temperatures here lately
[18:01:18] <jmkasunich> its 86F here
[18:01:32] <alex_joni> 36C one day, 18C the next, 32C the next one
[18:01:35] <cradek> we had 100F yesterday
[18:01:44] <jmkasunich> wow
[18:01:51] <cradek> =38C
[18:02:07] <cradek> it was very windy so didn't even seem hot
[18:02:13] <cradek> but I did get out the motorcycle now
[18:02:19] <alex_joni> nice
[18:04:04] <alex_joni> how do you use units to convert from C to F ?
[18:04:42] <jmkasunich> I don't think it can
[18:04:52] <jmkasunich> units handles scales just fine, but not offsets
[18:05:01] <jmkasunich> (or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about)
[18:06:41] <jmkasunich> http://www.bash.org/?370
[18:07:04] <alex_joni> LOL
[18:07:12] <alex_joni> I see you are truly hooked to it now :D
[18:07:58] <ValarQ> oh, mr Kasunich is taking a bash.org tour :)
[18:08:30] <ValarQ> alex_joni: listened to the 5:th lesson yet?
[18:08:42] <alex_joni> ValarQ: not yet captain
[18:08:49] <ValarQ> aw :(
[18:09:13] <ValarQ> you'll learn to say "Cool ball car for father went by a lighthouse and sheep too fast" in swedish!
[18:09:28] <alex_joni> ValarQ: have you ever smelled moth balls?
[18:09:44] <ValarQ> whats moth?
[18:09:56] <alex_joni> ah, forget it
[18:10:07] <jmkasunich> lol
[18:10:13] <jmkasunich> foiled
[18:10:15] <jepler> $ units "tempF(80)" "tempC"
[18:10:15] <jepler> 26.666667
[18:10:19] <ValarQ> * ValarQ checks it up on wikipedia
[18:10:22] <alex_joni> argh.. tempC
[18:10:48] <ValarQ> alex_joni: nope, never smelled mothballs
[18:10:52] <jepler> 100F ~= 38C
[18:11:09] <ValarQ> alex_joni: i don't believe they are very common in sweden
[18:11:12] <alex_joni> moth balls are actually some white balls which keep moths away
[18:11:14] <jmkasunich> ValarQ, I think he was trying a joke about insect testicles
[18:11:19] <alex_joni> indeed
[18:11:42] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: ok, i guess that escaped me
[18:13:19] <jmkasunich> we're all so serious in here right now
[18:13:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is actually reading about readline
[18:14:09] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: trying to push the swedish lessons can't be very serius...
[18:14:19] <ValarQ> s/serius/serious/
[18:56:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ja men alex_joni, du bör lära dig mera svenska, det kan vara till nytta någon gång i framtiden
[18:57:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni breaks down in tears
[18:58:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nej men alex_joni, det är väl onödigt?
[19:05:36] <alex_joni> should I start guessing and stop waiting for a translation?
[19:05:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh, possibly ;)
[19:06:00] <alex_joni> nah.. too tired to do that
[19:06:03] <jepler> alex_joni: I think he said something nasty about your mother .. unless it's about the way your father dresses.
[19:06:15] <alex_joni> maybe it's the same person?
[19:07:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the first was: now now alex_joni, you should learn more swedish, it may be useful for you some time in the futre, and the second was "now alex_joni, isn't that a bit unnececery"
[19:07:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> more or less, the feeling is hard to translate
[19:07:41] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: probably so..
[19:09:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> why are you interested in learning swedish?
[19:09:18] <alex_joni> who said I am ..
[19:09:21] <alex_joni> ??
[19:09:22] <ValarQ> i did
[19:09:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> IIRC you were interested in that
[19:09:33] <alex_joni> lol.. well, I'm not really interested
[19:09:39] <ValarQ> ok then
[19:09:48] <alex_joni> any other language might come in handy some day
[19:09:59] <alex_joni> but it's not that crucial that I would like to start learning it now
[19:10:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok. It's just the swedish seems like a rather obscure language, compared to something like german/english/french
[19:10:41] <ValarQ> you might want to learn Skånska instead :)
[19:10:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> HAHA!
[19:11:01] <alex_joni> I do speak those (german, english & a bit of french)
[19:11:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it certainly sounds like a different language at times
[19:11:10] <alex_joni> do it does seem rather strange
[19:11:11] <etla> mandarin
[19:11:22] <alex_joni> but it reads like missspelled german & english :)
[19:11:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what does?
[19:11:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> swedish?
[19:11:46] <alex_joni> yeah.. some words
[19:11:53] <alex_joni> if you don't mind the special characters
[19:12:05] <alex_joni> Skånska does..
[19:12:54] <ValarQ> Skånska is more Danish than Swedish
[19:13:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ValarQ was kind of joking IRT that, skånska is a dialect that many hate
[19:13:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or well, don't like
[19:13:26] <ValarQ> i don't say i don't like it
[19:13:30] <alex_joni> I was in skåaneland or whatever you call it
[19:13:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I find it rather garish and gutteral (at least the strange pronounciation)
[19:14:06] <ValarQ> it's just that i live in Småland and im having easier understanding Norrländska than Skånska
[19:14:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> there shouldn't be much of a difference between skåne and the rest of sweden
[19:15:10] <ValarQ> http://www.spelcenter.com/gbs/index.php <- Dig skåne away!
[19:15:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha, sounnds great!
[19:16:21] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/src/module_helper/module_helper.c: added rtlinux modules to module_helper whitelist, now EMC-2.0.1 should run on BDI-2.xx
[19:20:00] <etla> anyone know a lot about motor control ?
[19:22:19] <etla> apparently not...
[19:22:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> in EMC or in general=
[19:23:08] <alex_joni> etla: bug jmkasunich
[19:23:17] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich hides
[19:23:25] <alex_joni> lol.. couldn't help it :)
[19:23:36] <etla> in general, I'm wondering about the benefits of having a torque-control loop within a speed-control loop in a servodrive
[19:23:38] <alex_joni> etla: bug jmkasunich during his working hours
[19:24:03] <jmkasunich> torque control = current control?
[19:24:36] <etla> jmka: yes
[19:25:04] <jmkasunich> most of the high performance drives I've worked with use a current loop inside the speed loop
[19:25:58] <etla> and how does the current-loop improve overall performance ?
[19:26:27] <jmkasunich> hard to say, since I have next to no experience with drives that don't have a current loop
[19:26:30] <jmkasunich> no way to compare
[19:26:41] <Jymmm> Jymmm has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - a linux based CNC control. | EMC2.0.0 is out .. | Home: www.linuxcnc.org | wiki up @ wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: www.frappr.com/emc2/
[19:26:42] <jmkasunich> keep in mind that I work with industrial size drives, not servo drives
[19:27:17] <etla> ok. I have lot's to do to get the speed loop right, so maybe when it works well I will look at the current loop
[19:27:31] <jmkasunich> they interact
[19:27:49] <jmkasunich> its not as simple as saying "I'll get the speed loop right, the add a current loop"
[19:28:03] <jmkasunich> with a current loop, the speed loop will be different (and probably simpler)
[19:28:25] <etla> well, right now the speed reference input doesn't work, and the speed measurement doesn't work...
[19:28:32] <jmkasunich> are you talking about AC or DC drive?
[19:28:38] <etla> AC
[19:28:48] <jmkasunich> oh, fun :-/
[19:29:00] <etla> did you see the pic of the proto ?
[19:29:08] <jmkasunich> yeah
[19:29:21] <jmkasunich> there are so many differnet ways to control AC motors
[19:29:29] <jmkasunich> V/Hz, vector, sensorless vector, etc
[19:29:52] <etla> well, this is an permanent magnet ac servo
[19:29:56] <jmkasunich> I don't fully understand most of the control anyway, I just make the power modules pump out amps
[19:30:12] <jmkasunich> PM control is something I knoiw even less about
[19:30:13] <etla> with both halls and an encoder
[19:30:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: (or if anyone else knows), is there a chance of constant surface speed (changing RPM in accordance with a changing diameter) and feedrate as mm/turn (instead of mm/min) will be added to the lathe functionality?
[19:30:31] <jmkasunich> my day job is almost entirely induction motors
[19:30:49] <jmkasunich> we have a PhD locked up in the corner to work on PM control algorithms
[19:31:16] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra, the latter (constant feed/rev) is already doable with G33
[19:31:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: sounds like a desirable job description ;)
[19:31:26] <etla> ok, I hope to have something working by fall...
[19:31:37] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Not much of a PhD if s/he can't come up with an algo to escape =)
[19:31:49] <jmkasunich> they pay him to stay locked up
[19:31:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: hmm, that's true, but rather cumbersome. and doing things like g02/g03 is not easy
[19:32:01] <Jymmm> lol
[19:32:12] <jmkasunich> besides, PhDs like to be locked in corners with hard theoritical problems
[19:32:27] <jmkasunich> the trouble starts when you let them out and they start working with real stuff in the lab
[19:32:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what I would mean is something like writing G97 and then F0.1 would give 0.1 units/turn
[19:32:35] <jmkasunich> then you have to protect them from them selves
[19:32:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: no practial experience?
[19:32:51] <jmkasunich> he reached in and almost touched a shaft turning at 12,000 RPM once
[19:33:05] <jmkasunich> lucky he still has his fingers - somebody grabbed his arm just in time
[19:33:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :|
[19:33:22] <Jymmm> When I was a SysAdmin... I'd just want a dark corner, two computers and a very fast connection... I could perform miracles =)
[19:33:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> well, if the shaft was very smooth (small diameter too) and spinning the right direction, not much would have happened...
[19:33:59] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra, G33 is used for threading, you specify the thread pitch... for constant feed/rev, just specify the feed/turn instead of the pitch
[19:34:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> however if he put his fingers in it in the wrong dir.... *shudders*
[19:34:21] <jmkasunich> after all, a turned OD is just a very fine thread cut with a blunt nosed tool
[19:34:47] <jmkasunich> shaft was about 1-1/2" dia, coupling more like 5" dia, motor a couple hundred HP
[19:35:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes, but still, it's a rahter roundabout way of doing that. and things like g02/g03 is not possible, which is needed if one wants to use it for anything useful
[19:35:49] <jmkasunich> just telling you what we have right now
[19:36:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, yes, I know that there isn't any G97-esque thing now, but is there any plan to add it later?
[19:36:22] <jmkasunich> dunno
[19:36:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I guess I should bug cradek about that?
[19:36:43] <jmkasunich> plans don't mean much, what is needed is a person who knows how and is motivated to do it
[19:45:38] <Jymmm> our we talkin 12pk of beer type motivation or like cold hard cash motivation or whine of to deaath type motivation?
[19:46:25] <alex_joni> I think chris paused from doing any more work on that because of the lack of a clear way to do it
[19:46:50] <alex_joni> all the documentation out there (from various manufacturers) is very contradictory
[19:46:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> lack of a clear way to do it?
[19:46:58] <alex_joni> e.g. there's no common standard
[19:47:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the actual code should be easy to do
[19:47:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> do you mena the Gcode?
[19:47:19] <alex_joni> it is, but deciding how to do it, what g-code to use, etc
[19:47:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and the interpreter?
[19:47:23] <jmkasunich> things like how to specify the feed, what to do in the event of an abort, etc
[19:47:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:47:29] <cradek> I keep asking for a spec, nobody writes it for me
[19:47:43] <cradek> same for threading
[19:47:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can write one, can't guarantee it will be particularly consistant with teh rest though ;)
[19:48:05] <jmkasunich> for example, during threading (G33), if an abort happens during the move, the move is finished - if you were to stop the tool while the spindle is still turning it would dig in
[19:48:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> even with a estop?
[19:48:29] <jmkasunich> but for a feed/rev move, abort should probably just stop the move immediately
[19:48:37] <cradek> I'm more interested in canned cycles for threading before constant surface speed
[19:48:44] <jmkasunich> estop stops the spindle, and the tool tracks as the spindle slows down
[19:48:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so an estop will abort the move?
[19:49:08] <jmkasunich> when the spindle stops
[19:49:23] <alex_joni> and generally yes
[19:50:00] <jmkasunich> these kinds of issues are what a spec is all about
[19:50:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes indeed
[19:50:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> let me know if you want my own spec ;)
[19:50:27] <jmkasunich> there is no decent spec for feed/rev, therefore there will be no code for it ;-)
[19:50:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's so hard with feed/rev?
[19:51:04] <jmkasunich> post a spec on the dev list
[19:51:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> where would a different rule apply to feed/rev compared to feed/min other that the spindle speed?
[19:51:44] <jmkasunich> one that thinks thru all the weird stuff like what to do on abort, what to do on estop, how to specify the feed, etc, etc
[19:51:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> shouldn't the behavior be exactly the same?
[19:51:58] <jmkasunich> I dunno
[19:52:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> except that the feedrate is dependant on the rpm, so a lower rpm would lower the feedrate
[19:53:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> well, not adding the functionality becuase there is no spec seems like a bad reason not to include it at all. If need be then make a spec of your own, is what I would think
[19:53:38] <jmkasunich> if its so fscking easy you add it
[19:54:01] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: that sounds like a good plan..
[19:54:58] <alex_joni> write a spec (but that's possible only if you know a bit of emc's internal or emc's treating of g-code) that doesn't only say do it like feed/min
[19:55:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: firstly I hope i havn't had a conscending tone, if so then that has been unintentional, and I apologize. and from what I understood cradek is able to add that code, assuming that he gets a spec of how it should act
[19:55:28] <jmkasunich> its just a matter of making the time
[19:55:33] <jmkasunich> all of us are busy
[19:55:41] <jmkasunich> nothing is ever as simple as you would like it to be
[19:55:51] <alex_joni> and caring enough to take the time spending on a spec, which could be used for soemthing else
[19:56:02] <alex_joni> especially since a spec could be written even by non-programmers
[19:56:26] <cradek> I think the spec needs to be written by someone who is experienced with the commercial cnc lathes
[19:56:34] <cradek> this is probably NOT a programmer
[19:56:46] <alex_joni> probably a g-code programmer :)
[19:56:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I have been using a commercial CNC lahte for quite some time
[19:56:53] <cradek> like I said, I want to do threading canned cycles before CSS
[19:57:05] <cradek> I want someone to figure out which gcodes we want to use for that
[19:57:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and done both g-code programming and cad/cam
[19:57:17] <cradek> it should probably be compatible with some commercial system
[19:57:20] <cradek> I have no idea which one
[19:57:29] <alex_joni> and tool-shape compensation
[19:57:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can describe the way that they act with feedrate/min
[19:57:36] <cradek> one that's as simple as possible and will tend to work with common cam output
[19:57:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and with toolshape compensation
[19:57:56] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: if you do.. please send it to emc-devel
[19:58:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the weblist?
[19:58:14] <jmkasunich> the mailing list
[19:58:17] <alex_joni> mailing list
[19:58:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and which behaviour, the toolshape compensation, or inc/turn?
[19:58:53] <jmkasunich> anything and everything you can think of about lathe specific functionality
[19:59:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which level of compensation are we talking about here, the userland stuff (g-code programmer), or how the math works?
[19:59:22] <jmkasunich> then the programmers can look at it, ask more questions about parts they don't understand, etcv
[19:59:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (by math I mean the compensation entirly)
[19:59:34] <jmkasunich> both
[20:00:09] <jmkasunich> to be honest, I don't think any of the current EMC coders have any idea what is needed for lathe toolshape compensation
[20:00:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> sure, I can do that. Although I'll only be able to descibe how you set all that up and how it then behaves when running programs
[20:00:26] <jmkasunich> if folks who have used commercial CNC lathes can tell us how they do it that would be great
[20:00:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds like simple sin/cos/tan operation
[20:00:44] <jmkasunich> how do you tell the control the tool shape?
[20:01:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you tell it the cutting position (where the tool radius is, and where the virutal cutting point is) and the radius
[20:01:19] <jmkasunich> suppose you have a triangular insert? or a long skinny diamond (what do they call that?)
[20:01:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can make an illustration of that later
[20:01:42] <jmkasunich> ok
[20:02:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> could someone make a list of things that you want to know about the behaviour?
[20:02:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so that I know what to write about?
[20:02:37] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking of cases like a square insert at 45 degrees - for turning the front corner cuts, for facing the side corner cuts, and if you cut an arc at some point it switches from one corner to the other
[20:03:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, AFAIK commercial lathes don't have support for that.
[20:03:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you'd have to do the switch manually
[20:03:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> from one tool value to the other when you need to switch
[20:06:32] <alex_joni> odd weather.. 57F outside
[20:07:18] <Jymmm> alex_joni is that hot for you?
[20:09:32] <alex_joni> not really.. we had like 80 earlier today
[20:10:16] <Jymmm> ah
[20:10:40] <alex_joni> or more..
[20:11:05] <alex_joni> err.. 90 :)
[20:48:56] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/rtapi/rtapi_math_i386.h: just include inlines for the functions we use, and don't hide them inside #ifdefs
[20:57:32] <roltek> hi alex what where you talking about threading
[20:57:45] <alex_joni> who me?
[20:57:52] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hides
[20:57:54] <roltek> yes
[20:58:04] <alex_joni> roltek: kidding.. I know very little about threading
[20:58:41] <roltek> where they talking something about feed per min
[20:58:56] <alex_joni> yeah, CSS
[20:59:11] <alex_joni> but before that we should have working canned cycles for threading
[20:59:27] <alex_joni> unfortunately we're stuck at not knowing what the industry usual is
[20:59:32] <roltek> a comerical lathe always run in rpm
[21:00:24] <alex_joni> roltek: how do you mean that?
[21:00:39] <K4ts> helo
[21:00:42] <K4ts> hello
[21:00:48] <roltek> feed per revolution on lathe
[21:01:01] <alex_joni> hi K4ts
[21:01:04] <roltek> for turning treading or whatever
[21:01:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> in all programs I've written for the lathe (I and everyone else that I know) write programs with feed as units/turn, and not units/min
[21:01:08] <alex_joni> roltek: always?
[21:01:16] <K4ts> hi alex_joni
[21:01:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or well, nearly always, except for driven tools like endmills and so on
[21:01:37] <anonimasu> constant feedrate contouring right?
[21:01:45] <anonimasu> speed/feed..
[21:01:48] <anonimasu> or whatever they call it
[21:01:57] <roltek> do you program in an rpm at the start of a new tool
[21:02:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you can, but it's prefferable to set it to have CSS
[21:02:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> better for tool lifespan and so on
[21:02:28] <anonimasu> css?
[21:02:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> constant suface speed
[21:02:40] <alex_joni> constant surface speed
[21:02:43] <anonimasu> ah yeah
[21:03:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> changes the rpm so that the perifrial speed is constant (up to a upper max)
[21:03:16] <roltek> depends on what material you atr working on
[21:03:31] <alex_joni> or the other way around.. changes peripheral speed to keep up with the spindle speed
[21:03:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: what do you mena by that?
[21:04:01] <roltek> what if your lathe has a maxium of 2500 rpm and you are working on allimun
[21:04:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> then it will hit the max rpm roof, and stay there
[21:04:27] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: if your lathe starts to go from 2000 to 1900 then 2100
[21:04:41] <roltek> if i am working on steel i am always progmamming in css
[21:04:43] <alex_joni> in order to keep CSS, you have the tool tip motion go faster and slower
[21:04:57] <alex_joni> roltek: how does that look like?
[21:05:01] <alex_joni> the programming I mean..
[21:05:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: I'm not following you
[21:05:29] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: nm.. it's late.. I can't express myself clearly
[21:05:47] <alex_joni> similar to threading I meant
[21:06:14] <roltek> sometimes you can not program alluminum fast enough because of rpm limitations and tools you use
[21:06:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> for CSS I write:
[21:06:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> T1D1 (tool number and tool data)
[21:06:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> G96 S200 F0.1 M4 M8 (CSS, 200m/min, 0.1mm/turn, spindle backwards, coolant on)
[21:06:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> G0
[21:06:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> G1
[21:06:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ...
[21:07:01] <roltek> wher is your g50
[21:07:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, yes the feedrate changes as you get a changed diameter if you have mm/turn, as a smaller diameter gives a higher rpm, and that in turn increases the feedrate speed (in mm/min)
[21:07:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> roltek: that was just a code snippet
[21:08:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and I don't use/know what G50 is, I probably use a different code
[21:08:36] <roltek> allex do you still have the web site for css
[21:08:47] <alex_joni> I'm not sure I ever had ?
[21:09:17] <roltek> g50 is for max rpm so your part doesn,t fly out of chuck
[21:09:51] <roltek> when ever css is used there is a max limit
[21:09:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, I use G26 2500 or LIMS=2500 to set max
[21:10:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ( I use a siemens 840D)
[21:10:31] <roltek> different controls might use different max for g-code
[21:10:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> no doubt, as with everthing else
[21:10:47] <alex_joni> roltek: that's why it's hard to add to emc
[21:11:05] <roltek> i am using all fanucs
[21:11:05] <alex_joni> what's more common out there? US people would say fanuc, eu people siemens
[21:11:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I have used mainly siemens, and some fanuc
[21:12:18] <roltek> control does not matter as long as there is g-c for it
[21:12:29] <roltek> g-code
[21:12:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> EMC needs a spec though
[21:12:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> whcih it doesn't have ATM
[21:13:06] <roltek> they are all good controls just depends what you are use to
[21:13:28] <alex_joni> if you guys come up with a spec.. then emc will be a good control too
[21:13:54] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what is the adress for the emc-devel mailing list?
[21:14:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and what do you want to know?
[21:14:15] <roltek> if you are looking for g-code hass list all of there's
[21:14:30] <roltek> haas
[21:15:26] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: actually I'd like to know what you'd expect emc to do in a perfect world
[21:15:35] <alex_joni> check www.linuxcnc.org -> Contact Us
[21:15:58] <alex_joni> it's someting like emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net (from memory..)
[21:16:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh... uh, CSS, feed in mm/rev, canned roughing cycle, nose radius compensation, a good GUI for lathes and probably some more stuff
[21:16:59] <alex_joni> ok, sounds like a good TOC
[21:17:05] <alex_joni> TOC=Table Of Contents
[21:17:33] <alex_joni> now, if you expand each topic with ideas and code snippets.. then it'll be perfect :D
[21:18:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> sure, I can't do that today (sleepytime soon), but I'll be happy to add samples of the way I would expect EMC to behave with things like that
[21:18:41] <roltek> most cam system's program in tool nose radius
[21:19:14] <alex_joni> roltek: everyone is invited to join in on specs
[21:19:26] <alex_joni> your guys experience on this stuff is _needed_
[21:19:56] <Lerneaen_Hydra> roltek: yes, and as I use cam I won't need it much, but many people still program by hand, and it's sometimes useful to hand program, so I would find it useful to have, although not very important (at least not as important as CSS and mm/rev
[21:21:36] <roltek> spec's are already done if you use a control that is being used already and then you don't have to worry about not having a post proscesserr
[21:22:07] <alex_joni> roltek: not sure they are free to distribute
[21:22:31] <jmkasunich> and the kind of specs that a commercial control makes available to users aren't sufficient to write code from
[21:22:35] <roltek> you can use anybody's g-code
[21:23:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> gnight all
[21:23:41] <roltek> if you have programming manual it tell's you exactly how it is suppose to work
[21:26:12] <alex_joni> well.. I don't have one ;)
[21:26:20] <alex_joni> so.. I'm going to bed for now
[21:26:28] <alex_joni> maybe I'll dream about one
[21:26:33] <alex_joni> g'night all
[21:26:42] <Jymmm> alex_joni liar... no you won't! =)
[21:27:03] <jmkasunich> he said maybe
[21:27:05] <roltek> have a good night alex
[21:28:18] <roltek> jmkasunich would you like me to get you one
[21:28:32] <jmkasunich> no, I have too many other things on my mind right now
[21:28:49] <Jymmm> =)
[21:28:55] <jmkasunich> are you talking about paper or electronic?
[21:29:25] <roltek> paper
[21:29:45] <jmkasunich> I guess it doesn't matter anyway, either one is going to be copyrighted
[21:30:46] <roltek> see you latter
[21:31:58] <Jymmm> haas manual?
[21:43:50] <giacus> hello
[21:46:19] <giacus> wanna ear the #emc topic ?
[21:46:36] <giacus> http://www.giacus.org/files/sint.wav
[21:46:48] <giacus> :D
[21:49:04] <K4ts> ma non si vede nulla
[21:49:08] <K4ts> ?
[21:49:26] <giacus> of course ..
[21:49:42] <giacus> what you want to see ?? its an audio file
[21:50:12] <giacus> would you see me dancing on the topic ?
[21:50:14] <giacus> :D
[21:50:34] <giacus> K4ts: ! kidding ];P
[21:51:14] <K4ts> eh?
[21:51:35] <K4ts> non si sente nemmeno
[21:51:38] <K4ts> ahah
[21:52:10] <giacus> K4ts: your media player codecs are broken
[21:52:19] <K4ts> real player
[21:52:36] <K4ts> con quello sento però
[23:19:05] <Guest409> logger_aj: bookmark
[23:19:05] <Guest409> See
[23:25:06] <Guest409> Guest409 is now known as SkunkWrks
[23:25:16] <SkunkWrks> cradek: how is the tuning going?
[23:34:45] <K4ts> night