#emc | Logs for 2006-05-05

[02:11:56] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcboard.JPG
[02:13:27] <cradek> hey that looks pretty successful
[02:14:22] <skunkworks> so far so good.
[02:14:31] <cradek> is this one of your homemade engraving tools?
[02:14:37] <skunkworks> yes.
[02:14:40] <cradek> cool
[02:15:41] <skunkworks> I have a crappy video of a drill breaking also :) drilled about 10 holes then broke. Wondering if the collet is out of round.
[02:16:18] <skunkworks> kind of a crappy holder
[02:17:05] <cradek> carbide?
[02:17:23] <skunkworks> right
[02:17:34] <cradek> huh
[02:17:35] <skunkworks> .034 dia
[02:17:44] <cradek> what rpm, feed, depth?
[02:18:42] <skunkworks> about .01 further than the board thickness - around .07
[02:18:52] <skunkworks> 25k rpm and 3 ipm
[02:19:20] <jmkasunich> feed seems slow
[02:19:26] <cradek> yeah
[02:19:32] <skunkworks> it seemed to do it at the bottom - there is a second delay - do you delay at the bottom of the hole?
[02:19:33] <jmkasunich> 0.00012" per rev
[02:19:38] <cradek> try more like 10-12
[02:19:43] <skunkworks> ok
[02:19:53] <cradek> yes but a second is WAY too long
[02:20:05] <SWPadnos> in the words of Buster Poindexter: "Hot Hot Hot!"
[02:20:11] <cradek> yep
[02:20:40] <cradek> at such high rpm you probably don't need any dwell
[02:20:41] <skunkworks> Remember the gcode generator had a 10 second delay :) but it was probably for a differnt flavor of gcode
[02:20:49] <jmkasunich> anybody here use the m5i20 board?
[02:20:52] <cradek> yeah probably 10 ms
[02:20:57] <cradek> ray is
[02:21:09] <skunkworks> almost there :)
[02:21:25] <skunkworks> pads are pretty much big enough now for my tastes
[02:21:28] <SWPadnos> I have one, if you need some test run
[02:21:58] <jmkasunich> I'm writing the doc chapter for it
[02:22:11] <jmkasunich> and I realize I have no clue what many of the hal pins do
[02:22:16] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:22:19] <jmkasunich> are you gonna bring your board to fest?
[02:22:23] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:22:34] <jmkasunich> I want to revise the driver to use the canonical encoder interface
[02:22:40] <SWPadnos> in fact, we can see what happens when you load both the m5i20 and the ppmc driver at once
[02:22:54] <cradek> skunkworks: http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/eagle/ulp/singlesided.gpar?rev=1.3
[02:23:02] <SWPadnos> plus an extra parport or 3 (and cl, for even more pins ;) )
[02:23:24] <cradek> skunkworks: this is with my 16-18? krpm spindle
[02:23:27] <jmkasunich> eventually you'll run out of hal shared memory
[02:23:37] <cradek> I think these are the numbers I used most recently
[02:23:41] <SWPadnos> I wonder when that happens?
[02:23:55] <jmkasunich> when it gets full ;-)
[02:24:01] <SWPadnos> oh. thanks
[02:24:08] <jmkasunich> halcmd stat will tell you what you have
[02:24:22] <jmkasunich> the most I've seen is about 2/3 full (with a very complex config)
[02:24:32] <SWPadnos> usually it's pretty empty
[02:24:42] <skunkworks> Cradek: Thanks
[02:25:13] <cradek> welcome
[02:25:38] <cradek> I guess I'm conservative on the drilling too
[02:25:45] <cradek> never had any problem
[02:27:09] <jmkasunich> SWP: any idea what dac-<chan>-interlaced means?
[02:27:23] <SWPadnos> nope
[02:27:43] <SWPadnos> the DACs are actually PWM, so it could have to do with the timing of the PWM pulses
[02:28:17] <SWPadnos> hmm - a near-default univstep config has 39538/65500 bytes used
[02:28:26] <jmkasunich> big
[02:28:26] <SWPadnos> no cl
[02:28:44] <SWPadnos> I loaded m5i20, and it's up to 55093/65500
[02:29:05] <jmkasunich> :-(
[02:29:11] <jmkasunich> damn metadata
[02:29:27] <SWPadnos> parport adds 3.5k
[02:29:44] <jmkasunich> the damn names are stored in shared memory, and they just eat it up
[02:30:00] <jmkasunich> especially since they were increased from 31 to 41 chars a few months back
[02:30:04] <SWPadnos> any magic with 64k? this is a 32-bit system after all
[02:30:35] <jmkasunich> maybe superstition, but I think there were problems with getting large blocks of shmem from the RTOS
[02:30:46] <SWPadnos> ok.
[02:31:00] <jmkasunich> could be expanded, but would need to test on all the compile farm slots (at least)
[02:31:01] <SWPadnos> how does one load cl? just loadrt classicladder?
[02:31:16] <SWPadnos> you'd have to run it, I think - not just compile
[02:31:29] <jmkasunich> it gets a bunch of insmod params to set max rungs, etc
[02:31:38] <jmkasunich> yes, actually run on the farm to test
[02:31:49] <jmkasunich> see demo-mazak config for loading CL
[02:32:25] <rayh> servo-thread ( 50975, 74636 ) here.
[02:32:43] <jmkasunich> re the memory thing... I want to get names and other metadata out of shared memory someday
[02:33:47] <SWPadnos> I'd think they have to be shared, since the name is the ID for each "resource"
[02:34:11] <SWPadnos> HAL memory status
[02:34:13] <SWPadnos> used/total shared memory: 63449/65500
[02:34:14] <SWPadnos> active/recycled components: 10/0
[02:34:16] <SWPadnos> active/recycled pins: 422/0
[02:34:18] <SWPadnos> active/recycled parameters: 380/0
[02:34:19] <SWPadnos> active/recycled signals: 42/0
[02:34:21] <SWPadnos> active/recycled functions: 23/0
[02:34:23] <SWPadnos> active/recycled threads: 2/0
[02:34:34] <SWPadnos> univstep + m5i20 + one extra parport + cl_rt module
[02:34:47] <jmkasunich> so about 870 objects
[02:34:47] <SWPadnos> no ladder loaded
[02:35:07] <jmkasunich> 73 bytes per object
[02:35:08] <SWPadnos> looks that way
[02:35:14] <SWPadnos> 900 is about the limit, I guess
[02:35:15] <jmkasunich> 41 (IIRC) of that is the name
[02:35:39] <jmkasunich> more than half
[02:35:48] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:36:02] <jmkasunich> theres a lot of other metadata too, type, links for various lists, etc
[02:36:39] <SWPadnos> I haven't added anything else to the threads either - that would take some space, right?
[02:36:47] <jmkasunich> a little
[02:36:57] <jmkasunich> struct funct_entry
[02:37:09] <jmkasunich> those are small tho, cause they don't contain the name, just a few pointers
[02:37:23] <SWPadnos> of course, now that I've loaded this stuff, even if I unload the extra modules, I'll still be stuck with this split for pins / signals / etc.
[02:37:38] <SWPadnos> until I run out of shmem
[02:37:40] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:37:55] <SWPadnos> let's add that to the discussion list at Fest ;)
[02:37:58] <jmkasunich> the core architecture needs a major rework
[02:38:19] <jmkasunich> but that is (hopefully) invisible to users, and therefore very low on the priority list
[02:39:05] <jmkasunich> very few people will give a shit (depressing, but true)
[02:39:57] <SWPadnos> isn't Fest about the code?
[02:40:06] <jmkasunich> it depends on who you ask
[02:40:11] <jmkasunich> its also about the users
[02:40:18] <jmkasunich> and the projects
[02:40:53] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'd say it's about the code, and the "user experience"
[02:41:09] <jmkasunich> the hal restructuring will definitely need a branch, thats not a one week job
[02:41:26] <SWPadnos> nope
[02:41:49] <SWPadnos> I think there's enough to talk about, that we need to concentrate a fair amount of time on making a list of TODOs, and a plan
[02:41:59] <SWPadnos> other time for coding, other time for teaching, etc.
[02:42:14] <jmkasunich> very little time for sleeping
[02:42:29] <jmkasunich> "sleep? what's that?"
[02:43:10] <SWPadnos> I'm sorry - I didn't understand the question
[02:47:11] <jmkasunich> damn, I don't know much about the m5i20
[02:47:40] <jmkasunich> lots of pins with "duh, I dunno what it does"
[02:48:02] <SWPadnos> I can look at the FPGA code, but I'm not sure it would help ;)
[02:48:20] <jmkasunich> not real high on my list right now
[02:48:27] <jmkasunich> I just want to get the lists in the doc
[02:48:32] <jmkasunich> they're gonna change anyway
[02:48:35] <SWPadnos> to find out what the pins / params do
[02:48:38] <SWPadnos> true
[02:51:44] <jmkasunich> wonder what "led-view" does?
[02:52:08] <SWPadnos> I think it lets you put some of the I/O on the onboard LEDs
[02:52:18] <SWPadnos> you select which byte to stick there or something
[02:56:44] <SWPadnos> nope - it's an 8-bit pattern that gets output to the LEDs
[02:57:29] <SWPadnos> technically, I suppose that should be 8 HAL_BITs
[02:57:46] <jmkasunich> its a U16, not U8
[02:57:48] <jmkasunich> I wonder why?
[02:58:01] <SWPadnos> 16-bit register?
[02:58:06] <SWPadnos> even though only 8 are used
[02:58:22] <jmkasunich> could be, but the hal should be based on what is used
[02:58:30] <jmkasunich> I agree, it should probably be 8 bits
[02:58:38] <jmkasunich> led-0 thru led-7
[02:58:45] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:59:51] <SWPadnos> led.0 - led.7, actually ;)
[03:00:05] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:00:23] <jmkasunich> well, this board is so far from any convention that it doesn't matter
[03:00:38] <SWPadnos> true. but petev likes it ;)
[03:01:14] <jmkasunich> I hope he doesn't like it so much that he gets made when we revise it
[03:01:26] <SWPadnos> I have the FPGA code for an 8-encoder version, which also fixes a bug in the current version
[03:01:34] <SWPadnos> I haven't had time to check it though
[03:01:49] <jmkasunich> hmm, according to the comments in the driver, it _is_ an 8 encoder version
[03:01:55] <jmkasunich> still only four dacs tho
[03:01:58] <SWPadnos> (from pete W, via petev)
[03:02:06] <SWPadnos> hmmm - lemme check that email
[03:02:17] <jmkasunich> haven't checked the #define of M5I20_NUM_ENCODER_CHANNELS, maybe the comment is wrong
[03:02:46] <SWPadnos> apparently the secondary encoders wouldn't have worked, due to the bug
[03:03:20] <SWPadnos> or at least some of them wouldn't have worked
[03:09:50] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/drilling.ASF <really crappy video
[03:17:25] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/hal_drivers.lyx: added info for the m5i20 card, lots of details are still missing (I don't have a card)
[03:17:55] <jmkasunich> SWP: would you mind looking that over, add/verify some of the details?
[03:18:31] <SWPadnos> I can try, but I
[03:18:42] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure how much good it will do
[03:19:05] <SWPadnos> everything I know about the m5i20, I know by looking at the source
[03:19:08] <jmkasunich> the real facts will have to wait for fest I think
[03:19:11] <SWPadnos> ye
[03:19:13] <SWPadnos> p
[03:21:59] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich starts on the motenc board
[03:23:25] <jmkasunich> too many damn boards
[03:52:41] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/hal_drivers.lyx: added info for the motenc cards, still need one or two details, but most if it is correct
[03:53:01] <jmkasunich> still need info for the ppmc, but not tonight
[03:53:04] <jmkasunich> goodnight all
[04:04:54] <Jymmmm> Use the source SWPadnos!
[04:11:03] <Jymmmm> SWPadnos: Have you used the 5120 card yet?
[04:13:27] <Jymmmm> Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm
[06:20:28] <alex_joni> morning
[07:54:26] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[07:54:26] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[08:06:42] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymm
[08:25:42] <Bo^Dick> is it possible to select two objects in the eagle board layout and type a command that displays the ratsnest for those two only?
[08:52:45] <Bo^Dick> mention an expensive cad-software that can autoplace, auto gateswap, autorotate and autoroute a design
[08:54:37] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: why not autodesign the schematic aswell
[08:54:47] <alex_joni> oh, and maybe build it too
[08:59:40] <Bo^Dick> well the schematic isn't as critical as the layout
[09:51:22] <giacus> morning
[12:45:22] <fenn> i made a... thing. seems to have turned out a bit better than my last spirograph attempt: http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/camera/DCP_0637.JPG
[12:46:49] <SWPadnos> cool ... thing
[12:47:27] <jepler> nice ... thing
[12:47:43] <fenn> code here if anyone's interested: http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/3dspiro5.py
[12:48:08] <fenn> based on jepler's spiro.py
[12:48:19] <jepler> awww I am so famous
[12:48:48] <SWPadnos> world famous in #emc
[12:52:03] <jepler> that'll do I suppose
[12:52:08] <alex_joni> morning
[12:52:14] <SWPadnos> hi Ale
[12:52:15] <SWPadnos> x
[12:52:23] <SWPadnos> coffee time, I guess
[12:52:51] <jepler> at one point I thought AXIS was getting 1000s of source downloads each month .. then I realized it was mostly due to a few people who downloaded *all* of the source snapshots ever released.
[12:53:02] <jepler> bbl
[12:59:08] <alex_joni> jepler: what's the purpose of that?
[12:59:36] <fenn> robots
[12:59:56] <fenn> like webcrawlers or stupid page-archiving software
[13:01:32] <alex_joni> I would have thought those are somehow at least pre-intelligent
[13:04:00] <rayh> Hi guys
[13:04:05] <alex_joni> hi ray
[13:04:08] <SWPadnos> hi Ray
[13:05:28] <rayh> When Sherline set up the server for emc stuff they included the audio files between matt and fred and were serving a tb every six weeks
[13:06:22] <les_w> morning
[13:07:08] <rayh> Hi Les
[13:07:31] <les_w> hi ray. rainy day perhaps here, so back to the shop
[13:07:38] <les_w> I was going to take off
[13:07:59] <rayh> No rest for the wicked.
[13:08:07] <les_w> heh
[13:10:43] <les_w> this farm stuff just reminds me that we really have poor weather prognostication from NWS. They can't even tell you the weather for the next day.
[13:11:06] <alex_joni> no, but they usually can for the previous day
[13:11:12] <les_w> haha
[13:11:13] <SWPadnos> "for the next 24 hours, there will be weather
[13:11:15] <SWPadnos> "
[13:11:16] <alex_joni> although not very precise
[13:11:22] <alex_joni> it's a probable weather
[13:11:37] <SWPadnos> "for the next 24 hours, there is a 50% chance that there will be weather"
[13:11:50] <les_w> dark tonight, with scattered light by morning...
[13:11:52] <fenn> we always have weather here
[13:11:54] <SWPadnos> diminishing to 30% in the south
[13:12:02] <alex_joni> I think they announced 90% for tomorrow here
[13:12:04] <fenn> sometimes its sunny, sometimes its cloudy
[13:12:11] <fenn> always miserable though
[13:14:21] <rayh> Just got an invitation to http://www.3tfuari.com/indexeng.php
[13:14:40] <giacus> hello
[13:14:50] <SWPadnos> I guess they think you're a Turkey ;)
[13:14:51] <les_w> I need somrthing dramatic for the air generator. I was thinking a load of 20 or 30 ultrabright LEDs....
[13:14:54] <rayh> Hey giacus.
[13:15:01] <les_w> hi jacky
[13:15:03] <rayh> doh.
[13:15:04] <SWPadnos> I've got just the LEDs for you
[13:15:07] <giacus> :))
[13:15:18] <SWPadnos> 135000 mcd white
[13:15:26] <SWPadnos> at ~3.2V, 20 mA
[13:15:26] <giacus> * giacus just back to home ..
[13:15:52] <les_w> I have a big bag of em somewhere....
[13:15:55] <alex_joni> how was napoli ?
[13:16:39] <les_w> that's 13500 mcd right?
[13:16:46] <SWPadnos> no, 135 cd
[13:16:54] <SWPadnos> or 135k mcd
[13:17:04] <SWPadnos> they are *bright*
[13:17:09] <les_w> holy cow those must be very focused
[13:17:16] <les_w> blinding really
[13:17:26] <SWPadnos> nope - 10mm, they throw a spot about like a mini kryptonite light
[13:17:34] <SWPadnos> and about as bright
[13:18:12] <les_w> what size are they?
[13:18:26] <SWPadnos> 10mm
[13:18:31] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7609370940
[13:18:34] <les_w> haha
[13:18:43] <les_w> looking
[13:19:04] <SWPadnos> 10mm LEDs are actually really huge - they're kinda funny looking
[13:19:26] <SWPadnos> it's like the old christmas lights - the big round bulbs, instead of the pin lights they use today
[13:20:18] <les_w> I want some
[13:20:25] <les_w> they would be perfect
[13:20:36] <SWPadnos> can I get your address from your website?
[13:20:43] <SWPadnos> or do you need more than a few?
[13:21:03] <les_w> let's see...
[13:21:10] <SWPadnos> (if you just want to play around with a few, I can send you some)
[13:21:26] <SWPadnos> then again, it's $30 for the 100 pack ;)
[13:21:58] <les_w> I have about 22v 5VA 40 kHz ac
[13:22:32] <SWPadnos> 5 LEDs in series, plus a rectifier
[13:22:45] <SWPadnos> but you need way more LEDs to use all that power
[13:23:24] <SWPadnos> maybe 6, if the batch you get is a little lower voltage
[13:23:51] <SWPadnos> you'd want about 50 LEDs total, 10 strings of 5 or 6 each
[13:24:18] <les_w> would need 78
[13:24:26] <les_w> 12 strings of 5
[13:24:28] <SWPadnos> is that 22V p-p, or rms?
[13:24:36] <les_w> ohh that would be big
[13:24:53] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'd get the smaller ones, even though they won't be as bright
[13:25:16] <les_w> 22 peak....15.5 rms
[13:25:20] <SWPadnos> ok
[13:26:04] <les_w> yeah i'll do that...lower brightess but perhaps similar total flux
[13:26:26] <SWPadnos> possibly. the smaller LEDs are both smaller and dimmer, so the flux should be a lot lower
[13:26:42] <les_w> 5 watts of LED will light a room pretty well I think
[13:26:56] <SWPadnos> the big ones sure will. the smaller ones probably not
[13:27:13] <SWPadnos> I haev a bunch of boards with ~36 5mm LEDs on them, in various colors
[13:27:26] <SWPadnos> they are bright to look at, but they don't illuminate things very well
[13:27:33] <les_w> how many lumens are those?
[13:27:57] <SWPadnos> between 6000 and 14000 mcd per LED, depending on the color
[13:29:44] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - if you sand off the tip of the LED, you get a much better diffusion pattern
[13:29:46] <les_w> the ones I have are red...for automotive. Because they are designed to tail light specs the are lower mcd but high luminous efficiency
[13:30:20] <SWPadnos> are those the clusters or discrete LEDs?
[13:30:38] <les_w> modular strips
[13:30:42] <les_w> HP
[13:30:44] <SWPadnos> ah - OK
[13:31:09] <les_w> I was asked to write a paper on automotive LED use years ago
[13:31:15] <les_w> so they are old
[13:31:41] <SWPadnos> I can send you a protel layout for a 36-LED carrier board, that's configurable for 3 strings of 10, 11, or 12 LEDs, or 6 strings of 5 or 6 LEDs
[13:31:54] <les_w> similar to the LED I used on the boeng 777 cockpit annunciator
[13:32:00] <SWPadnos> they won't be anywhere as bright as today's LEDs then
[13:32:10] <les_w> 14 years ago
[13:32:25] <les_w> yeah I had better get some modern ones
[13:32:36] <SWPadnos> luminous efficiency and flux density have both increased by a factor of 1000 or more in that time ;)
[13:33:44] <rayh> any loss of reliability or lifespan with the new?
[13:33:53] <SWPadnos> hmmm - let's se ewhat happens if I try to run Altium while I still have LabView going ;)
[13:33:57] <les_w> I had better grab some quick....the device has to be in chicago the 15th
[13:33:59] <SWPadnos> nope - better if anything, AFAIK
[13:34:20] <SWPadnos> if you need them fast, just order some and send them to me - I can send you mine
[13:34:27] <Bo^Dick> guys, what setting do you usually have for your stepper drivers, full, half, quarter or 1/eight stepping?
[13:34:35] <SWPadnos> they take about a week or so to get over from HK
[13:34:44] <les_w> let me check on it
[13:34:49] <SWPadnos> 1/10 - geckodrives ;)
[13:36:05] <SWPadnos> though I use servos, so that's not quite true
[13:38:06] <jepler> clearly the ideal system will command a theta in full IEEE854 double precision floating point, so that this issue of "stepping" is relegated to the past. none of this step+direction bullshit either.
[13:39:23] <Bo^Dick> i thought one could adjust that setting in the gecko stepper drivers
[13:39:31] <jepler> winding "A" current = cos(theta) * I max, winding "B" current = sin(theta) * Imax
[13:39:33] <SWPadnos> yep - 1x, 2x, 5x, 10x
[13:40:24] <Bo^Dick> i'm considering building a stepper driver that could only do 1/4 steps and no other variant
[13:40:52] <SWPadnos> have you looked at the linistepper for inspiration?
[13:41:03] <Bo^Dick> in fact no
[13:41:08] <Bo^Dick> have a link?
[13:41:14] <SWPadnos> one sec
[13:41:48] <SWPadnos> http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/index.htm
[13:42:10] <jepler> SWPadnos: have you used linistepper?
[13:42:14] <SWPadnos> that's a unipolar driver
[13:42:14] <jepler> it seems like such a terrible idea
[13:42:26] <les_w> so several days from best hongkong?
[13:42:28] <SWPadnos> nope, but it looked neat way back when
[13:42:32] <SWPadnos> at least
[13:42:48] <SWPadnos> http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/lini_wks.htm
[13:43:05] <SWPadnos> how it works
[13:43:22] <jepler> here's my favorite pic of linistepper: http://www.piclist.com/images/member/RB-ezy-Q33/jelly01.jpg
[13:43:38] <SWPadnos> that's a big heatsink ;)
[13:43:41] <jepler> Jelly Baby Engineers: "Heatsink? You call that a Heatsink??
[13:43:42] <jepler> THAT'S A HEATSINK!!"
[13:43:46] <Bo^Dick> thx
[13:44:19] <alex_joni> that's a small heatsink
[13:44:19] <SWPadnos> there's gotta be a better way to drive the motors, but they have some good ideas about microstepping, I think
[13:45:52] <Bo^Dick> but the bottom line is that you really use the 1/10 step mode in practive??
[13:46:09] <SWPadnos> if I were to use steppers, I would absolutely use microstepping
[13:46:26] <jepler> SWPadnos: why?
[13:46:34] <jepler> (I've never used anything beyond halfstepping)
[13:46:41] <SWPadnos> the more microsteps you have, the closer to an AC servo the motor bevomes, for the most part
[13:46:45] <SWPadnos> becomes
[13:46:48] <Bo^Dick> i've heard that there is a tradeoffs with microstepping. otherwise all people would use 1/16 all the time right?
[13:47:05] <jepler> I think the main "tradeoff" is the required step generation rate
[13:47:07] <SWPadnos> the tradeeoff is that you need to generate 16x as many steps to get the same rotation
[13:47:19] <jepler> it's hard to get past 25kHz step rate or so in emc2
[13:47:19] <Bo^Dick> precisely
[13:47:32] <SWPadnos> with an FPGA based step generator (USC, m5i20), that's not an issue
[13:47:33] <Bo^Dick> this limits motor speed
[13:48:09] <SWPadnos> or, you use something like the gecko, where the driver *always* microsteps the motor, and you have a step multiplier on the input
[13:48:32] <SWPadnos> you still get smooth motor motion, and you don't limit the speed
[13:48:35] <les_w> these look ok if I could get em fast
[13:48:38] <les_w> http://www.lsdiodes.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=19
[13:48:58] <SWPadnos> damn - that's expensive
[13:49:27] <SWPadnos> argh - gotta run
[13:49:31] <les_w> yeah, but I need fast
[13:49:32] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[13:49:39] <Bo^Dick> why is there a 25kHz limit from emc2?
[13:49:48] <jepler> Bo^Dick: software step generation
[13:49:52] <Bo^Dick> that sucks if you dont have geckos right
[13:50:29] <jepler> Bo^Dick: if base_period is 20us you can change the state of an output pin at a rate of 50kHz
[13:50:42] <jepler> that means you can issue a step pulse at a rate of 25kHz
[13:51:42] <Bo^Dick> in fact what i'm considering is if i could build something that can only do quarter steps but i dont wanna sacrifice speed
[13:51:44] <jepler> cradek's maxnc: 16tpi leadscrew, 1.8 degree motor, halfstepping, 30ipm: That's only 3.2kHz
[13:52:05] <jepler> it would only be 16kHz for 1/10 stepping
[13:52:42] <Bo^Dick> so with quarter steps there is no way that it wouldn't be fast enough?
[13:52:58] <jepler> sure it would. quarter steps is 6.4kHz which is a lot less than 25kHz
[13:54:12] <fenn> $0.90 is expensive/
[13:54:50] <fenn> i guess its not a 135,000 mcd
[13:55:07] <fenn> but those 5W luxeons are like $35
[13:55:16] <les_w> but this is for president of finishing systems...
[13:55:48] <jepler> (of course, if you design something with quadrature inputs you can generate a full 50k steps per second at a 20uS base_period)
[13:56:20] <fenn> les_w: get a green luxeon led
[13:56:27] <les_w> I see a demo where the air generator is on a table.....hook up little air line and turn it on...and 60 ultrabright leds shine right in the viewers face
[13:56:30] <fenn> blindingly, ridiculously bright
[13:56:38] <les_w> yeah
[13:56:46] <les_w> with no moving parts
[13:56:55] <fenn> these led's have heatsinks on them
[13:57:50] <fenn> holy crap the price has come down 10x
[13:57:59] <fenn> http://www.lumileds.com/products/family.cfm?familyId=1
[13:58:20] <les_w> well I need to get some fast. Low price is good, but not required
[13:59:16] <fenn> actually you probably want the star (integrated heatsink) http://www.lumileds.com/products/family.cfm?familyId=2
[13:59:53] <les_w> those look fine
[14:00:10] <les_w> mouser or digikey have them?
[14:00:17] <fenn> dunno
[14:00:22] <les_w> i'll check
[14:00:54] <les_w> A demo like that would knock their socks off
[14:01:44] <les_w> tiny little gadget with no moving parts hooked to an air line....
[14:01:56] <les_w> using only a little air
[14:02:03] <les_w> and blinding light
[14:02:12] <les_w> yeah.
[14:03:24] <fenn> weird
[14:08:28] <les_w> well i'll get to the shop
[14:08:41] <les_w> have to machine some lexan for the thing
[14:08:53] <fenn> have fun
[14:09:00] <les_w> k...later
[14:17:32] <Bo^Dick> btw, would 1/4 stepping be considered smooth enough?
[14:17:50] <Bo^Dick> asking you guys who has got the experience of couse
[14:21:40] <Bo^Dick> i guess an experienced stepper driver user would have an opinion
[14:31:00] <rayh> 1/4 stepping is what the Sherline version uses.
[14:36:28] <Bo^Dick> would 1/8 stepping be seriously better than 1/4 or would the downsides of too small steps be significant
[14:38:20] <Bo^Dick> i think i could build a 1/8 stepper driver but is it resonable to believe that it would be worth the effort
[14:43:42] <Bo^Dick> the intrest for stepper drivers doesn't seem too big in here. do all of you use servos?
[14:45:04] <cradek> Bo^Dick: I think the vast majority of emc users use steppers
[14:45:23] <rayh> Most stepper folk use commercial drives
[14:46:17] <Bo^Dick> i've heard there are some poor commersial stepper drivers too
[14:46:36] <Bo^Dick> cradek: the first one you had wasn't very good was it
[14:46:56] <Bo^Dick> cradek: i mean before you made the L297/8 design'
[14:48:45] <jepler> Bo^Dick: the original maxnc drivers were unipolar "L/R" type
[14:48:52] <cradek> it was good enough to make parts. it was a commercial product made as cheaply as possible.
[14:49:18] <Bo^Dick> what would you estimate the price/unit for those poor stepper drivers
[14:49:51] <jepler> the aluminum box was probably the most expensive component
[14:50:07] <jepler> the rest were some TO220 darlingtons and some TTL inverters
[14:50:17] <cradek> either that or the 20 watt? resistors
[14:50:18] <jepler> the second most expensive part was probably the power resistors
[14:50:35] <jepler> or maybe the transformer
[14:51:07] <Bo^Dick> as for what i've understood your stepper driver works well with half-stepping only or do you use it in full step mode?
[14:51:21] <cradek> I use half stepping
[14:51:41] <cradek> my understanding/experience is that full stepping doesn't really ever work
[14:51:45] <Bo^Dick> how come there are microstepping drivers when half-stepping works fine?
[14:52:01] <cradek> oh for petes sake
[14:52:22] <Bo^Dick> i mean can womthing be better than good enough?
[14:52:39] <cradek> you can make a stepper driver for $5 or $500 and you get a range of performance
[14:52:48] <cradek> why do you keep asking the same questions?
[14:53:15] <Bo^Dick> well why would anyone buy a 500$ stepper driver when a 5$ can do the job just as good
[14:53:28] <Bo^Dick> there just has to be a catch
[14:54:50] <Bo^Dick> to be really honest i'm standing between building a 1/4 step stepper driver alternatively a 1/8 driver
[14:55:01] <Bo^Dick> i don't wanna rush into it
[14:57:50] <rayh> Bo^Dick, The answer to your question is in the question itself. "just as good"
[14:58:18] <rayh> A Gecko works well for within it's specs
[14:58:29] <rayh> A Xylotex works well within it's specs.
[14:59:06] <rayh> A unipolar works well within it's specs. In fact I'm proposing the use of a unipolar for a new customer now.
[14:59:45] <Bo^Dick> does unipolar mode have advantages over bipolar?
[14:59:52] <rayh> The extra winding on the motor required to match a bipolar costs less than a properly protected bipolar driver.
[15:00:02] <rayh> They are harder to kill.
[15:00:21] <Bo^Dick> ok
[15:03:33] <Bo^Dick> i think i'll go for a 1/4 step stepper motor since some tables only move 1mm a revolution
[15:04:09] <Bo^Dick> else the whole system would be slow
[15:04:31] <Bo^Dick> in fact i was somewhat surprised that the emc2 could only do 25kHz for the step pulses
[15:04:49] <rayh> I've run em up to 50k
[15:05:09] <Bo^Dick> but then you step on both flanks dont you
[15:05:09] <rayh> but you can't expect a dumpster box to do that.
[15:05:19] <rayh> nope.
[15:05:38] <Bo^Dick> so in the end it's dependent on computer performance
[15:06:47] <Bo^Dick> after all i don't have any insight in how the software generates the signal. i was thinking it had some kind of lookup table that provides information about the step pulses
[15:07:15] <Bo^Dick> in my own experiments i managed to stress the parallel port output to 250kHz
[15:07:33] <Bo^Dick> without any processing between the flanks
[15:07:52] <Bo^Dick> lookup tables are usually very fast
[15:10:39] <Bo^Dick> what i'm also thinking about is that lets say that i'm finding out that 1/8 stepping is too slow, could i just add on a pulse doubler?
[15:11:19] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/Master_User.lyx: Tweaked layout
[15:11:29] <Bo^Dick> or put in other words, i guess it's easier to turn a 1/8 stepper driver into a 1/4 one rather than the other way around
[15:12:26] <rayh> Right the frequency multiplier used by Gecko is quite interesting and complex.
[15:13:02] <Bo^Dick> i do realize that since the doubler must generate a new pulse with a time delay that is proportional to the incoming frequency
[15:13:42] <skunkworks> does he use some sort of PLL?
[15:13:55] <rayh> yep
[15:14:10] <rayh> so dividing is easier than multiplying.
[15:14:54] <rayh> But using a pic for this is fairly easy also.
[15:15:11] <skunkworks> I think the pll is one of those neat circuits. :)
[15:16:06] <skunkworks> rayh: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcboard.JPG
[15:16:14] <skunkworks> getting there.
[15:17:01] <rayh> Nice job.
[15:17:30] <skunkworks> Thanks
[15:17:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is there a wiki or something describing setting up an external parport?
[15:17:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (by external I mean PCI-based)
[15:18:09] <cradek> all you do is plug it in and then use lspci to try to figure out its address
[15:18:24] <cradek> then put that address in your hal file
[15:19:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> nothing more than that?
[15:20:04] <cradek> nope
[15:20:20] <Bo^Dick> well in fact there is no problem with multiplying a frequency unless you can't wait the first period to get the new frequency
[15:21:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ooh, major update today in ubuntu (or well, I noticed it today)
[15:21:31] <cradek> yeah there was a security advisory regarding X
[15:21:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, that one that only affected certain hardware?
[15:22:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> How do I get the adress to the normal hexadecimal format?
[15:22:38] <rayh> Is there a quick way to get a listing of the dependencies of a deb package?
[15:22:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> check the apt manual
[15:23:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> there is a check command IIRC
[15:23:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the lspci output is 0000:01:0c.0
[15:23:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> for my parport
[15:23:49] <cradek> apt-cache show?
[15:23:58] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: that's not the address, try lspci -v?
[15:25:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pastebin.com/700173
[15:25:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I take it it's the 32-bit wide adress?
[15:26:10] <cradek> it's the dff0 dfe4 or df80
[15:26:27] <cradek> I think the typical procedure is try each with your fingers crossed
[15:26:41] <rayh> That's the way I've always done it.
[15:26:55] <rayh> then run the system and see if you can toggle bits.
[15:27:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh, ok
[15:28:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is there any limitation to how many PCI parports you can have?
[15:28:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> other than running out of PCI slots
[15:28:54] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: I don't think so
[15:29:52] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: but I doubt anyone has used more than 2-3 so far
[15:31:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and here comes another topic change. the encoder on the lathe currently sends a 1 when there's not a hole and a 0 when there is a hole (or vice versa), is this the type of code EMC wants or do I need to process the signals. (this applies to both the index hole and the 100-holes-per-rev-holes)
[15:31:27] <cradek> emc requires quadrature counts with an index pulse once per revolution
[15:32:00] <cradek> (if you're using the hal encoder module)
[15:32:28] <cradek> if it has only hole/not hole, how does it know which direction it's turning?
[15:32:30] <rayh> Are there two pickups per set of holes
[15:32:49] <cradek> hmm I bet it only turns one way
[15:33:16] <cradek> you could write a new hal module to count this way if you have a clean signal out of it
[15:33:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: it doesn't tell which way it's turning (that is something emc shoudl be able to know, seeing as how it sets the motor dir)
[15:33:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: at the moment it only spins one way
[15:34:02] <rayh> So you need a simple counter not a quadrature counter.
[15:34:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> rayh: there is only one pickup per holeset
[15:34:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> rayh: exactly
[15:34:31] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: yes and no - when starting/stopping it seems like you could move one hole's worth in the wrong direction
[15:34:38] <cradek> enough to mess up your count
[15:34:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: the index would come soon though
[15:34:56] <cradek> but aside from that I think you could write a new counter module for it.
[15:35:00] <cradek> right
[15:35:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: heh, I can't write something like that. I have no experience with any programming language suitable for things like this
[15:36:21] <cradek> I bet you/we could easily copy the encoder module and rip out the quadrature stuff.
[15:36:48] <skunkworks> a simple mouse has 2 sensors per hole.
[15:37:37] <skunkworks> is the index pulse in a encoder smaller (a smaller "hole")
[15:38:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: there are two photodiodes, both the same size, one for the index and one for the higher-res stuff
[15:38:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: a mouse doesn't know which direction it's spinning though
[15:38:56] <skunkworks> yes it does
[15:39:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err.
[15:39:02] <skunkworks> has too
[15:39:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I meant the opposite
[15:39:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> >.<
[15:39:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I guess I was thinking of too many different things at once
[15:39:45] <skunkworks> :)
[15:43:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: which language is that module written in?
[15:45:38] <cradek> C
[15:46:54] <skunkworks> cradek: with the rt kernel - would a celeron proccessor run the same as a III of the same frequency - if realtime cannot use cache?
[15:47:08] <cradek> skunkworks: I don't know
[15:47:09] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/Master_User.lyx: Tweak to TOC
[15:47:24] <skunkworks> just thinking out loud
[15:49:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: hmm, I can read C somewhat (as long as it's relatively commented), so I may be able to do that
[15:49:34] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: after looking at encoder.c, I think the best way to get a non-quadrature mode added to the encoder module would be to pine for it in front of jmk
[15:50:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pine for it? (must be some expression I guess)
[15:50:17] <rayh> beg
[15:50:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah
[15:50:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> like whine for it perhaps?
[15:50:52] <cradek> more like talk about how nice it would be if only there was one
[15:50:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[15:51:21] <cradek> but seriously, you won't find better-commented code than his
[15:51:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I take it that's no major task?
[15:51:31] <skunkworks> I don't think jmk likes winers :)
[15:51:38] <skunkworks> whiners
[15:52:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I found stepgen.c to be very very well commented
[15:52:29] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: several of us could write this driver; my advice is don't worry about it not being there yet - just go on with your conversion
[15:53:12] <cradek> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/src/hal/components/encoder.c?rev=1.16
[15:53:15] <cradek> here is the file
[15:53:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: alright, singlepoint threading is somewhat low on my list of things to do, my first and foremost task is to gut it and try to find out which IC's i need to jack into
[15:53:34] <cradek> the brains are in update() which uses the lookup table lut[]
[15:53:54] <cradek> ok I understand
[15:54:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> modifying that file is beyond my cababilities
[15:55:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or rather, modifying it and making the result work
[15:55:09] <cradek> that's ok, don't worry about that
[15:55:29] <cradek> SM_LOOKUP_MASK];
[15:55:38] <cradek> oops
[15:55:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> okay, I'll concentrate on the mechanical/electrical stuff
[15:58:29] <cradek> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=pine*3+0&dict=A
[17:16:01] <Jymmm> Silly question... why do routers do 30K RPM? (not being funny here)
[17:18:34] <bill203> uhm, for smoother cuts?
[17:18:39] <bill203> * bill203 makes up answers.
[17:19:56] <Jymmm> so is 30k always the best speed?
[17:24:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> AFAIK faster is better
[17:29:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> depending on the material of course
[17:29:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> wood and aluminum come to mind
[17:31:11] <Jymmm> wood in this case
[17:56:12] <dmessier> hi all
[17:56:53] <dmessier> who's played with the puppy-emc2 cd??
[18:15:24] <jepler> I booted it once but never did any real work with it
[18:15:37] <jepler> I haven't seen the author in ages. He used to be on irc with the nick 'cncuser'.
[18:15:39] <cradek> same here
[18:21:46] <Jymmm> * Jymmm thought Ray created puppy.
[18:26:01] <skunkworks> cradek: where you able to view this? http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/drilling.ASF
[18:26:06] <skunkworks> It is pretty crappy
[18:26:42] <skunkworks> And you can hear someone say "whow"
[18:26:46] <skunkworks> :)
[18:27:48] <Jymmm> HOLY SHIT!!!! http://owmv.com/index.php?topic=856.0
[18:28:14] <Jymmm> Talk about having a fucked day.
[18:28:43] <jepler> hah I saw those awhile back
[18:29:22] <cradek> skunkworks: no, it doesn't seem to play for me
[18:29:41] <jepler> I don't remember the last one (second truck falling into the water too)
[18:30:06] <skunkworks> photoshopped
[18:30:29] <cradek> yeah I don't think the last picture is real
[18:30:38] <jepler> OK I was doubting it a bit too
[18:30:44] <cradek> all the people are gone
[18:30:54] <skunkworks> notice the last picture has the same bacground as the 5th one up
[18:31:45] <skunkworks> the guy in the white shirt and the lady next to him amoung other things
[18:31:59] <Jymmm> Yeha, notice the rig in the water... it hasn't moved at all.
[18:32:10] <Jymmm> just made fuzzy
[18:32:25] <dmessier> holy crap is soooo tru... LOL
[18:32:49] <Jymmm> But still... I could imagine that happening.
[18:33:02] <Jymmm> Murphy is a dead man when I catch him!
[18:33:22] <dmessier> it seems clear in win amp
[18:34:42] <dmessier> ive seen a guy come in drunk.. i know cuz i was drinkin with him.. and lose a 110 ton ore truck over the bank in the road cause he drove it to the bunk ouse to get his sunglasses...
[18:35:02] <dmessier> house
[18:35:13] <dmessier> explain THAT one
[18:37:18] <Jymmm> I have bunch of "Why I got fired today" pics... like cargo ships loosing their entire load into the ocean.
[18:40:31] <dmessier> that bites... if they ARE yours...
[18:43:37] <jepler> yeah jymmm loses a lot of jobs
[18:50:13] <dmessier> so do I... is there a pattern... ; )
[18:50:54] <dmessier> they hacked 5 guys at our place yesterday... 1 with 30 yrs 1 wit 26...
[18:51:55] <dmessier> others were expected...
[18:53:12] <dmessier> 1 just wouldn't shut up... even with me.. and i wear the name of the company...
[18:53:12] <dmessier> i am not a spy.... but isnt that what a good spy would say??
[18:54:55] <Jymmm> dmessier: Not mine =)
[18:55:47] <dmessier> we are 5S advocates and keep our tool shops in RE-building fixtures... cause we threw them out and the job is back
[18:56:07] <dmessier> just like the CAT
[18:56:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 5S, you have that too?
[18:56:53] <dmessier> it every where ...its everywhere.... lean to
[18:57:04] <Jymmm> 5S ?
[18:57:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> here in SKF sweden 5S boils down to basically trash, trash, trash, trash, trash. (trash your stuff)
[18:57:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (throw it away)
[18:57:29] <dmessier> works with good planners... doesnt work without them
[18:57:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh
[18:57:55] <dmessier> trash it... re print it when you need it...
[18:58:11] <dmessier> saves trees... right??
[18:58:56] <dmessier> i have 20 blue binders all marked with stuff i switched... LOL im an asshole...
[18:59:28] <dmessier> follow mee... i dont think so... ; )
[19:00:12] <dmessier> i cant even remember the 5 s's
[19:01:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that whole 5s thing seems to be just standard practices riddled with corporate speak
[19:02:20] <dmessier> we are based in France.. and it falls here like a BRICK
[19:02:33] <dmessier> i am in Canada
[19:03:26] <dmessier> im the worst proponent... i pile things...
[19:03:39] <dmessier> but know were it is
[19:10:49] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/desk.jpg :)
[19:11:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh, that would not be 5s certified (neither would my stuff be, and I'm glad about that)
[19:11:50] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/desk1.jpg
[19:12:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what with the CCTV camera recording yourself?
[19:12:32] <skunkworks> cradek: the last one is the computer you dialed into to work on the 1gb problem. (the one on the desk with the cover off)
[19:12:59] <jepler> "dialed into"?
[19:13:09] <skunkworks> Lerneaen_Hydra: No that was taken off of one of the machines that people monitor from home on the weekend.
[19:13:18] <skunkworks> jepler: yes - an old term :)
[19:14:11] <jepler> was it using a 300 baud modem?
[19:14:24] <jepler> hayes? or manual-dial acoustic?
[19:15:01] <skunkworks> No - he came in on the cable modem :) I just still use that term because I am odd.
[19:15:24] <jepler> you typed "odd". Did you mean "old"?
[19:15:56] <skunkworks> I don't think I am that old - 32.
[19:16:04] <skunkworks> am I?
[19:16:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ancient IRT to my age ;) It's all relative really
[19:16:22] <alex_joni> hello
[19:16:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> not really though
[19:16:24] <jepler> old enough to remember the 300 baud modems
[19:16:27] <jepler> hi alex
[19:16:31] <alex_joni> hello all
[19:16:34] <alex_joni> what's up ?
[19:16:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oldest I remember is 5.25" drives
[19:16:43] <skunkworks> Hi alex
[19:16:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> err, 5.25" floppies, not CD/DVD and the like
[19:16:59] <jepler> floppies? How hard I try to forget
[19:17:19] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: I've written, but not tested, a counter hal module that will work with your spindle sensor
[19:17:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: ooh, sounds interesting
[19:17:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: I take it that it was a minor thing to modify the origianl file?
[19:17:51] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: I realized I can use it on my lathe too, and get half the resolution (and therefore twice the speed) by using just one of the phase inputs
[19:18:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: well then you'll have an incentive too, which is a good thing ;)
[19:18:36] <cradek> about how minor it is, I'll have to let you know after it's tested
[19:18:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: ok
[19:18:57] <jepler> cradek: because it only turns one way ever?
[19:18:59] <cradek> at least I should be able to test it
[19:19:03] <cradek> jepler: right
[19:19:04] <skunkworks> cradek: how are you doing the index then - or do you just keep counting?
[19:19:07] <jepler> that idea was rattling around in my head recently too
[19:19:18] <cradek> it has an index input just like the encoder module
[19:19:32] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Heh, I remember that printer
[19:20:03] <skunkworks> I got it for free - and have printed about 2 sheets off of it.
[19:20:18] <Jymmm> lol
[19:20:41] <skunkworks> makes it so people can't see what is on one of my monitors :)
[19:20:49] <skunkworks> when the walk into my office
[19:21:09] <Jymmm> NOW we know what the camera is for =)
[19:21:33] <skunkworks> honestly - I think that is the only reason it is there :)
[19:22:10] <skunkworks> cradek: so he will need the encoder pulses plus one index pulse.
[19:22:16] <skunkworks> per rev
[19:22:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> who is he?
[19:22:49] <cradek> right
[19:23:23] <skunkworks> Lerneaen_Hydra: you
[19:23:27] <cradek> hmmm, and I can get an input back so I can hook up the home and limit switches properly
[19:23:46] <jepler> cradek: I still haven't gotten to see the lathe in operation
[19:23:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: Aren't I special. Yes, that should be correct
[19:23:53] <jepler> besides that video of course
[19:24:52] <cradek> I could do pseudo-knurling - I wonder if anyone does that with cnc lathes and thread cutting tools
[19:25:28] <Jymmm> In respect to steppers... which thingy in emc allows for the use of encoders?
[19:25:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: will the input be one pin for index (1 or 0 as index) and one for encoder (0 or 1 as hole or no-hole)
[19:25:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pseudo knurling?
[19:25:42] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: yes
[19:26:03] <cradek> cutting matching "threads" in both directions would give a knurl pattern
[19:26:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, you mean in borkborkbork langage what's called "lettring"
[19:26:51] <cradek> sorry, my borkborkbork is rusty
[19:27:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pity that
[19:27:16] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knurling
[19:28:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes that's lettring all right
[19:29:01] <cradek> Jymmm: lots of special hardware counts encoder pulses, but in emc2 you can also hook your encoder right to the parport and use the encoder hal module
[19:29:13] <skunkworks> never thought about knurling that way cradek
[19:29:50] <cradek> skunkworks: I hadn't either, but it seems like it would work - I have a terrible time getting a good knurl on a small lathe like the sherline
[19:30:58] <Jymmm> cradek: 3axis machine (no encoders yet, us digital?), would I need a 2nd paraport?
[19:31:46] <cradek> Jymmm: you have 5 inputs and lots of outputs, it really matters how many switches etc you have
[19:33:03] <Jymmm> cradek: I've never mucked with encoders, so I dont' know how many signle are beign returned. vcc, gnd, pulse (I guess).
[19:33:44] <cradek> an encoder with index pulse uses 3 parport inputs, two are quadrature and one is index
[19:34:05] <Jymmm> Ah, so five wires.
[19:34:13] <alex_joni> Jymmm: an encoder usually has A and B channels (+2 gnds)
[19:34:34] <alex_joni> if it has an index pulse, then another wire
[19:35:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> are..uh..what are they called, the switches that activate when you've reached the max accepted value in X+/- and Z+/-, really needed (for stepper driven things)
[19:35:23] <alex_joni> limit switches
[19:36:59] <Jymmm> Ok, and when using the encoder hal module... do the steppers follow the encoder or the other way around?
[19:37:26] <cradek> you can use the hal modules any way you want
[19:37:51] <Jymmm> I mean for error tracking (missed steps)
[19:38:11] <jepler> Jymmm: cradek is using an encoder to read the spindle speed
[19:38:22] <jepler> not as feedback for stepper motion
[19:38:26] <cradek> spindle position, more precisely
[19:38:34] <jepler> cradek: er, yes, sorry
[19:38:53] <Jymmm> I guess what i'm talking about is "closed loop"
[19:39:09] <cradek> you could use encoders with steppers with emc2 but it's not a typical configuration.
[19:39:37] <alex_joni> Jymmm: you can do that, but don't use PID
[19:39:48] <alex_joni> as that will kill/stall the steppers
[19:39:52] <Jymmm> alex_joni Ok, what would I use instead?
[19:39:55] <alex_joni> nothing
[19:40:02] <jepler> I don't know how well it will work. When steppers fail they don't just lose a step, often they stall and don't move again until you go through an acceleration phase again
[19:40:02] <Jymmm> STEPGEN ?
[19:40:17] <alex_joni> you'd use the position from the encoder as feedback to emc, rather than feedback from stepgen
[19:40:23] <cradek> use stepgen and save your money on the encoders
[19:40:39] <alex_joni> use stepgen + encoders for feedback (might work, not tested)
[19:40:47] <cradek> that's true, interesting
[19:41:09] <Jymmm> SO that would make it closed loop (but untested)?
[19:41:25] <cradek> well all it possibly gets you is a following error when your stepper stalls
[19:41:43] <cradek> if that's your only goal, it would probably work fine
[19:41:44] <alex_joni> yup
[19:41:47] <Jymmm> but no way to correct it huh?
[19:42:04] <alex_joni> Jymmm: steppers can't be corrected
[19:42:07] <cradek> yes, fix your program or machine so you don't get stalls
[19:42:13] <alex_joni> once they are stalled, you can't fix them
[19:42:25] <alex_joni> you probably need to stop, and restart
[19:42:38] <Jymmm> no, I mean like stepping back a few line of gcode, etc
[19:42:49] <alex_joni> Jymmm: that's ok from the GUI
[19:42:53] <alex_joni> but not automatically
[19:43:11] <Jymmm> alex_joni I'd be happy with that, if I can maintain the reference -vs- lost step positions
[19:43:40] <alex_joni> Jymmm: then encoders are ok
[19:44:13] <Jymmm> It's just when I lose position, if I can't reestablish the correct position, then the material is scrap
[19:44:30] <cradek> then you need home switches more than you need encoders
[19:44:54] <jepler> if home switches give high enough precision
[19:45:14] <cradek> a machine that loses position in anything but a catastrophic case is just broken or misadjusted IMO
[19:45:30] <cradek> or being used improperly I guess
[19:46:06] <Jymmm> Well, shit happens. I'm just trying to work around it.
[19:47:02] <cradek> for me it seems like any event that causes position to be lost destroys the work (and tool?) anyway and is usually a program error
[19:47:14] <Jymmm> If I do short run jobs, no problems. Get into the 2 or 3 hour jobs, I get issues periodically and I haven't been able to narrow down the problem yet.
[19:47:35] <cradek> that sucks, sounds like a pain
[19:47:51] <cradek> have you run the rtai latency test for a day? maybe your machine has glitches
[19:48:18] <alex_joni> he doesn't run emc
[19:48:24] <jepler> the other thing to try would be lowering accel and maxvel by 5%
[19:48:26] <cradek> oh
[19:48:26] <alex_joni> iirc
[19:48:39] <jepler> in that case .. you could try emc for a day :-P
[19:49:03] <cradek> * cradek whistles innocently
[19:49:19] <Jymmm> Yeah, but I was thinking that if I have some way to "regain postion" I could compensate for the stalling and not make more trash.
[19:50:01] <Jymmm> I have BDI, but I can only get 90IPM out of it. TCNC allows me 180IPM, so that's why I've been using it.
[19:50:34] <Jymmm> I needed the faster feed rates when workign wiht plastics.
[19:50:39] <rayh> jy
[19:50:54] <rayh> Jymmm, that is a part of the cost of multi tasking.
[19:51:21] <Jymmm> rayh I understand that, I'm not complaing.
[19:53:18] <Jymmm> Just trying to come to some viable solution at the stalling issues w/o costing an arm and a leg
[19:53:49] <skunkworks> I have had better luck with emc2 than turbocnc for max feed rate.
[19:54:10] <Jymmm> skunkworks what drivers?
[19:54:19] <skunkworks> stepgen
[19:54:33] <Jymmm> skunkworks: No, I mean gecko drivers?
[19:55:19] <skunkworks> oh - no z has a compumotor drive on it and x and y have burger lahr 5 phase stepping drive/motor
[19:56:12] <Jymmm> Ah, ok. I'm using Xylotex right now. I might have to buy geckos as they compensate for stalling
[19:56:13] <skunkworks> emc1 I had issues with - emc2 workes much better as far a pulse train for some reason.
[19:57:15] <skunkworks> these are industrial stepper drives. I really like the oem650 compumotor drives and you can get them pretty cheap on ebay
[19:57:44] <skunkworks> they are 6 amps max and do micro stepping
[19:57:53] <skunkworks> bipolar drive
[19:58:13] <Jymmm> max voltage?
[19:58:19] <skunkworks> 70 if I remember right
[19:58:34] <skunkworks> very simialar to the geckos.
[19:58:55] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/COMPUMOTOR-OEM650-RC-LNC-OEM650RC_W0QQitemZ7596238165QQcategoryZ97184QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:59:40] <skunkworks> we have gotten them for under 50 if you keep an eye on ebay
[20:00:03] <Jymmm> Ok, not much up there today
[20:00:45] <skunkworks> http://www.parkermotion.com/manuals/OEM/OEM350-650.pdf
[20:01:55] <skunkworks> 16 jumper selectable motor resolutions (200 - 50,800 steps/rev)
[20:02:09] <Jymmm> yeow
[20:02:12] <skunkworks> no step multiplier though
[20:02:35] <Jymmm> geckos have that iirc
[20:02:53] <skunkworks> right
[20:03:06] <skunkworks> we usually run them at 1000 steps per rev
[20:04:45] <alex_joni> not all geckos
[20:04:49] <skunkworks> I usually don't mention it because we don't need the ebay compition. but we have quite a few stock piled and really want to move to servos.
[20:05:42] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Well, come on man... lets here the numbers =)
[20:05:47] <Jymmm> hear
[20:05:57] <Jymmm> brb...
[20:06:02] <skunkworks> we probably have about 10 total
[20:06:24] <skunkworks> not including some other stepper drives that are lower current.
[20:06:32] <skunkworks> 3 amp
[20:10:16] <Jymmm> back
[20:12:52] <Jymmm> Reading about their resonance tuning guide now...
[20:13:23] <jepler> Jymmm: about step rate -- how many steps/second is 180IPM? Does xylotex give you any choice of microstep resolution?
[20:13:53] <Jymmm> jepler yes, Xylotex give 8 step
[20:14:03] <Jymmm> which is what I have it set to
[20:14:17] <Jymmm> steps/sec iirc is 16000
[20:14:28] <Jymmm> in TCNC
[20:14:39] <jepler> Jymmm: I have never tried to use it, but recent bdi4emc versions have something called "quickstep" which can use base_period way under 10usec. alex has done bas_period down to about 7usec in emc2.
[20:15:11] <jepler> Jymmm: so you might want to take another look at emc2 or bdi4
[20:15:57] <jepler> 10 usec BASE_PERIOD = 50kHz theoretical step rate
[20:16:08] <Jymmm> jepler: I'll have to see what I have installed on the laptop, not sure which BDI4 version it is.
[20:16:17] <jepler> you have to do extra work to get quickstep enabled
[20:16:21] <cradek> you're using a laptop to run it?
[20:16:53] <skunkworks> I only had one lap top that worked with tcnc
[20:17:13] <cradek> I would never trust a laptop without extensive running of something like the rtai latency test
[20:17:20] <skunkworks> all the ohter ones injected pauses in the pulse stream
[20:17:27] <cradek> right
[20:17:50] <Jymmm> IBM ThinkPad iSeries 2611-552 366mhz Celron
[20:18:20] <cradek> Jymmm: that might be your screws-up-every-few-hours problem
[20:18:29] <Jymmm> cradek how so?
[20:18:53] <Jymmm> the stalling primarily happens on a rapid too I have noticed.
[20:19:07] <Jymmm> in both X and Y.
[20:19:36] <cradek> you should run the rtai test. I've never used it but I think they even have a bootable cd that will run it
[20:22:05] <Jymmm> cradek is this "rtai test" something completely seperate from emc?
[20:22:14] <cradek> yes
[20:22:17] <Jymmm> k
[20:23:05] <Jymmm> cradek why did you say the laptop might be the "every few hours" fubar?
[20:23:39] <cradek> because laptops are often unreliable for realtime code
[20:23:55] <cradek> my old one would glitch when the processor fan turned on or off, for instance
[20:23:56] <Jymmm> oh, ok.
[20:24:12] <cradek> maybe your screen blanks after an hour, or your hard drive spins down, or who knows what else
[20:24:16] <Jymmm> ah, that makes sense.
[20:24:30] <Jymmm> I have APM disabled
[20:24:34] <cradek> you need to extensively test a laptop before you trust it for pulse generation
[20:24:43] <Jymmm> but that doesn't mean anythign these days
[20:24:46] <cradek> often that doesn't seem to matter
[20:25:05] <Jymmm> =)
[20:26:02] <cradek> http://issaris.org/rtai/howto.php
[20:27:09] <cradek> you want test 1, kernelspace latency
[20:27:44] <Jymmm> ok
[20:28:15] <Jymmm> and what kind of results should I be looking for?
[20:28:25] <cradek> hmm on later versions the tests show "overruns" which is the important thing
[20:28:38] <cradek> I'm going to try it here and see what it looks like
[20:30:02] <Jymmm> any aprticular version I shoud ld download? 14 15 16 ?
[20:31:34] <cradek> I guess I got 16
[20:31:41] <Jymmm> k
[20:43:43] <Jymmm> is keystick working in emc2 by chance?
[20:44:56] <cradek> yes in emc2 head
[20:45:17] <cradek> also xemc which is probably almost as fast
[20:48:01] <Jymmm> What I was thinking is running emc2 on a desktop box, but controlling it from the laptop... not enough room for another monitor
[20:48:27] <cradek> that would work fine with any of the guis
[20:48:41] <Jymmm> and NOT running X on the desktop box
[20:50:41] <Jymmm> ok, latency min/avg/max: 2023/1095/6062242
[20:52:23] <Jymmm> ok, latency min/avg/max: 2023/721/6062242
[20:52:29] <cradek> then you've found your problem
[20:53:10] <cradek> I think the max should be more like 20000 ns
[20:53:38] <Jymmm> maybe I need to confirm apm/pnp is disabled... let me try.
[20:54:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> goodnight all
[20:55:22] <giacus> night Lerneaen_Hydra
[20:57:40] <Jymmm> Ok, changed settings in BIOS, power cycled and running tests now...
[20:58:07] <Jymmm> latency min/avg/max: 1876/1128/26811
[20:58:23] <Jymmm> uh oh....
[20:58:42] <cradek> that's more like it
[20:58:47] <cradek> now let it run overnight
[20:59:02] <Jymmm> latency min/avg/max: 2102/1142/6105945
[20:59:08] <cradek> ouch
[20:59:26] <cradek> was it 26000 for a while and then jumped to that?
[20:59:45] <Jymmm> yes
[21:00:18] <cradek> that machine is unsuitable then
[21:01:08] <Jymmm> Ok, let me try my real laptop for shit and giggles =)
[21:06:29] <Jymmm> latency min/avg/max: 1212/2239/211810 (APM & PNP are enabled)
[21:06:43] <Jymmm> 2.8GHz P4
[21:08:02] <skunkworks> what do those numbers mean?
[21:08:38] <Jymmm> skunkworks: RTAI test results
[21:08:52] <Jymmm> skunkworks: http://issaris.org/rtai/howto.php
[21:10:47] <cradek> Jymmm: I think 211us is also unsuitable, but I don't have a machien to test it on
[21:11:00] <cradek> Jymmm: it would be nice if someone could run that on a known-good machine
[21:11:35] <Jymmm> cradek: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I have a test box here I could try it on.
[21:17:31] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/ (Makefile Makefile.inc.in):
[21:17:31] <CIA-4> new hal module that's like encoder but without quadrature. for lathe
[21:17:31] <CIA-4> spindles that have a simple pulse train for rotation and a reset pulse.
[21:17:31] <CIA-4> it should also work with just one phase of an encoder. this is completely
[21:17:31] <CIA-4> untested/unfinished.
[21:17:32] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/components/counter.c:
[21:17:34] <CIA-4> new hal module that's like encoder but without quadrature. for lathe
[21:17:38] <CIA-4> spindles that have a simple pulse train for rotation and a reset pulse.
[21:17:40] <CIA-4> it should also work with just one phase of an encoder. this is completely
[21:17:42] <CIA-4> untested/unfinished.
[21:20:18] <Jymmm> cradek: What mobo cpu video are you using?
[21:35:15] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:35:22] <Jymmm> night
[21:45:00] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Ok, you got some pricing on these drives yet?
[21:46:07] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/ini_config.lyx: first try at user level ini explanation.
[21:46:53] <robin_sz> meep?
[21:48:22] <Jymmm> hey robin_sz
[21:48:23] <cradek> Jymmm: I just tried it on my known-good laptop and get a consistent 16xxx max
[21:48:35] <robin_sz> hi
[21:48:38] <cradek> I think anything over 20xxx is abnormal
[21:49:04] <cradek> Jymmm: I've run on a variety of systems
[21:49:13] <Jymmm> cradek I'm running it on my p3 800 now, getting about 20287 for max
[21:49:25] <cradek> jepler's known good machine gives 9487 max
[21:49:37] <Jymmm> what system?
[21:49:41] <cradek> a laptop
[21:49:59] <cradek> an hp a couple years old I think
[21:50:34] <Jymmm> I won't muck with my good know laptop, it's still virgin =)
[21:50:53] <cradek> by known good, I mean known good for rtai
[21:50:56] <Jymmm> are you using a desktop box too?
[21:51:05] <cradek> my mill is on a desktop
[21:51:12] <Jymmm> what mobo cpu?
[21:51:25] <cradek> it's an oddball server class machine with PIII-666
[21:51:49] <Jymmm> video/network as cards or on board?
[21:51:50] <cradek> I had to disable the onboard video on it and use a pci card
[21:51:56] <cradek> network onboard
[21:52:40] <Jymmm> strange... I'm suspecting chipsets now
[21:52:56] <giacus> sis ?
[21:53:04] <cradek> what do you mean? your p3 is fine
[21:53:44] <Jymmm> cradek: Right but why a P3 666 is getting 9487, and a P3 833 is getting 20000 seems a little strange
[21:53:58] <cradek> the 9487 isn't a p3
[21:54:02] <cradek> 20000 is fine, don't worry about it
[21:54:13] <cradek> your other machines were 600000, worry
[21:55:26] <Jymmm> This is an intel mobo, I can't disab;e onboard video, just specify which is primary AGP/PCI
[21:56:06] <cradek> if you're getting 20xxx it's fine, don't mess with it
[21:56:13] <cradek> but do run it for at least a few hours to be sure
[21:56:33] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10documents/directory.map: Added wiki and emc2 layout
[21:56:54] <Jymmm> yeah, I'll let it run over night. I'm sick and tired of this stalling-after-a-few-hours crap.
[21:57:34] <cradek> any of those 600000 glitches will stall steppers if they're moving fast
[21:57:43] <cradek> I'm surprised you can't hear the glitches
[21:57:59] <Jymmm> But the funny thing is I can manually jog... no problems at all
[21:58:08] <cradek> have you ever jogged for hours?
[21:58:25] <Jymmm> seems like it some times =)
[21:58:52] <cradek> well good luck finding working hardware, you're on the right track now
[21:59:11] <Jymmm> Gawd, I hope so...
[21:59:34] <cradek> you've been using that laptop all along? the one that gave 600000?
[21:59:46] <Jymmm> yeah
[22:00:05] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[22:00:43] <cradek> that glitch is 12 pulses at 10kHz
[22:00:49] <cradek> I think
[22:00:59] <cradek> it's no wonder it didn't work
[22:03:01] <Jymmm> and ubuntu is a dawg on this box (the P3 833)
[22:03:21] <cradek> it runs perfectly fine on my 666
[22:03:50] <SWPadnos> has anyone noticed if ubuntu is significantly slower than BDI 4.30?
[22:04:10] <cradek> would be surprising - they're very similar systems
[22:04:25] <SWPadnos> yeah - that's why I was wondering
[22:04:37] <cradek> they both take forever to install but then run fine
[22:04:40] <SWPadnos> my celeron 500 with BDI 4.30 seems fast enough, though not "snappy"
[22:04:56] <jepler> On both, I immediately ditch the desktop in favor of icewm
[22:04:58] <SWPadnos> I scored a new PIII 667 for it though, so we'll see what happens ;)
[22:05:01] <jepler> and the terminal in favor of urxvt
[22:05:10] <jepler> it really makes a big difference in interactive "feel"
[22:05:12] <cradek> yeah, gnome-terminal is terrible
[22:05:37] <SWPadnos> I'm interested in seeing the difference in Dapper, but I haven't finished an install yet
[22:05:44] <jepler> on old bdi (4.2x?) "konsole" was terrible too
[22:05:58] <SWPadnos> (I have decided that Gentoo isn't worth the trouble though)
[22:06:10] <giacus> eterm is nice
[22:06:12] <cradek> I tried gentoo once and was not impressed.
[22:06:18] <SWPadnos> I use konsole when I log in remotely with CygWin
[22:06:34] <SWPadnos> it would be good with a 37 GHz machine and 100mbit internet access
[22:06:41] <SWPadnos> itherwise, it's not worth it
[22:06:44] <SWPadnos> otherwise
[22:07:14] <jepler> cradek: with freebsd don't you also compile most of your own software?
[22:07:16] <rayh> 37 GHz quad processor?
[22:07:42] <cradek> jepler: not usually, unless you want the very newest versions
[22:07:42] <SWPadnos> 37 GHz 8 x dual core processors, with 1G on-chip cacche, and 128G RAM per CPU
[22:07:59] <cradek> jepler: with ports you can choose to compile or install binaries
[22:08:05] <SWPadnos> you could then install e.g. firefox as fast as a binary download
[22:08:31] <rayh> You got a waterfall in the backyard to cool this?
[22:08:36] <SWPadnos> a lake
[22:08:49] <SWPadnos> and the sun to power it ;)
[22:09:08] <rayh> got an epa permit to boil water in the lake.
[22:09:26] <SWPadnos> party pooper
[22:10:30] <Jymmm> SWPadnos I'll take two please
[22:10:44] <SWPadnos> that'll be $3 gazillion, in small bills
[22:10:59] <Jymmm> no problem
[22:11:17] <Jymmm> * Jymmm ebays for 10,000 monoply games
[22:13:31] <giacus> <SWPadnos> you could then install e.g. firefox as fast as a binary
[22:13:43] <giacus> ?
[22:13:50] <giacus> about gentoo ?
[22:13:53] <SWPadnos> gentoo compiles everything when you install it
[22:13:54] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:14:31] <SWPadnos> it took close to an hour to compile firefox (on an Athlon 2200), after downloading a source tar that was already 2x the size of the binary
[22:14:57] <giacus> how much packages gentoo have ?
[22:15:15] <SWPadnos> thousands
[22:15:27] <robin_sz> I thought about using Gentoo once ...
[22:15:38] <SWPadnos> then got smart, huh
[22:15:47] <giacus> for a server maybe is nice
[22:15:57] <giacus> I'm not sure for a workstation
[22:15:57] <robin_sz> I decided to put my fingers in the office drawer and slam it a few times instead
[22:16:11] <SWPadnos> it was cool for a while, but since CPUs are so fast these days, there's not really any reason to do machine-specific optimization for most installations
[22:16:12] <robin_sz> overall, less painful
[22:16:47] <SWPadnos> this is a machine that's been around since the middle 2.4 days, and was used as a testbed during the kernel 2.5 cycle
[22:16:51] <robin_sz> it makes like, 5% difference
[22:16:57] <jepler> it would be interesting if there was a way to do an internet-wide "ccache" which somehow proves cryptographically that the object file you get is right
[22:17:08] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/module_helper/module_helper.c: new hal module `counter'
[22:17:25] <SWPadnos> it's been at least a year since I've upgraded the software, and there's just a bit too much to do now, so I keep getting emerge errors
[22:17:37] <SWPadnos> it's not worth it, when I have a shiny new ubuntu CD sitting here
[22:17:42] <robin_sz> stop emerging
[22:17:52] <SWPadnos> the machine is off - I got tired of the fan noise ;)
[22:17:53] <robin_sz> and evolve into a debian user :)
[22:18:09] <SWPadnos> I like the ubuntu brown - I'll stick with that for a while
[22:18:32] <SWPadnos> if only I could reliably burn CCDs with this stupid Windows machine
[22:18:36] <SWPadnos> CDs, even
[22:18:48] <robin_sz> i forgot what the difference between ubuntu and debian is ...
[22:19:16] <giacus> philosofy
[22:19:26] <SWPadnos> brown
[22:19:31] <giacus> that's the difference
[22:19:49] <robin_sz> lots of #ubuntu folks end up on #debian asking questions about why <balh> doesnt work .. b ut it does work in debian, the ubuntu people broke it .. so we send them away
[22:20:25] <giacus> leader of Ubuntu project is an old Debian developer
[22:20:32] <giacus> if I recall well
[22:21:15] <jepler> robin_sz: yeah I got a pretty frosty reception once when I was trying to get help with build-kpkg or module-assistant or some such thing, when I let it slip that I was actually using ubuntu
[22:21:39] <jepler> it made me want to give a big "fuck you" to the #debian channel, but I managed to choke back the impulse.
[22:22:08] <cradek> make-kpkg and m-a are debian warts, but I'm not surprised they don't want to take credit for them.
[22:22:41] <robin_sz> well, they dont keep track of what the ubuntu people have done, and typiclally it works fine in debian, but not on ubuntu, so it not their problem
[22:22:43] <jepler> but when you say "I'm trying to find out more about setting up my module to build with m-a and by the way I'm using ubuntu" I still think they could point me at the documentation (if, in fact, it exists)
[22:23:15] <jepler> and sure include a caveat "we don't know what those central-african dogfondlers have done to it since the Debian developers shat it out as a perfect diamond"
[22:23:16] <robin_sz> shrug ...
[22:23:33] <giacus> as well Debian user calls theyr OS Debian GNU/Linux
[22:23:40] <giacus> were Ubuntu not
[22:23:47] <robin_sz> why noit just ask on #ubuntu in the first place?
[22:23:50] <giacus> that's the relevant difference
[22:24:01] <jepler> I tried on #ubuntu but got silence
[22:24:08] <jepler> it's all "I can't install ndiswrapper, waaaah"
[22:24:42] <cradek> that's what they get for having users
[22:24:47] <robin_sz> its a bit like buying your car from kmart and then taking it to yor local dealer to ask him to explain stuff
[22:25:10] <jepler> back when we still got bdi users on this channel I always tried really hard to be helpful to them
[22:25:19] <jepler> I wish the people on #debian would have done the same
[22:25:24] <jepler> I know I can't demand it
[22:25:50] <robin_sz> justg pretend you have sarge then :)
[22:25:51] <SWPadnos> demand satisfaction, or your money back!
[22:26:46] <robin_sz> staff. grrr, pain in the ass/
[22:27:17] <robin_sz> ok bedtime for me .. exhausted
[22:27:49] <jepler> see you robin_sz
[22:28:00] <giacus> goodnight robin_sz
[22:30:17] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waves
[22:40:26] <anonimasu> hm..
[23:04:54] <cradek> hi, guest
[23:12:13] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/hal/components/counter.c: fix some documentation and error return codes
[23:26:20] <giacus> goodnight