#emc | Logs for 2006-05-04

[00:00:31] <les_w> ???
[00:00:33] <SWPadnos> finally ;)
[00:01:15] <les_w> the funding continues to flow SWP
[00:01:54] <jepler> oh is this just some scam to keep SWPadnos in caviar and champagne?
[00:01:59] <jepler> heck I wish I'd known that
[00:02:04] <les_w> haha
[00:02:06] <SWPadnos> heh - I wish ;)
[00:02:17] <SWPadnos> I even spent the extra $10 for a swap meet table
[00:03:02] <les_w> I can't go...to much work...pity I was just by there a few wees ago
[00:03:11] <les_w> weeks
[00:03:17] <les_w> a few wees
[00:03:19] <les_w> hahaha
[00:03:29] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: Fix handling of new and old widget values when morethan one HAL parameter is set from the same INI variable
[00:03:32] <SWPadnos> pisssssss
[00:03:37] <les_w> heh
[00:03:53] <jepler> you mean "wii", right?
[00:03:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:03:58] <les_w> I swear I hit the k key
[00:04:09] <SWPadnos> wii 360 extreeeem
[00:04:31] <jepler> "wii station"?
[00:04:45] <SWPadnos> latwiiine
[00:04:49] <les_w> still beta testing my friend's bad keyboards
[00:04:55] <SWPadnos> (the military gaming station)
[00:06:02] <SWPadnos> eeew - some of those images of tkemc (in the user manual) need significant quality improvements
[00:06:45] <jepler> SWPadnos: are you looking at the pdfs, or inside lyx, or what?
[00:06:52] <jepler> SWPadnos: are you looking at the pdfs, or inside lyx, or what?
[00:06:54] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[00:07:13] <SWPadnos> pdfs
[00:07:17] <SWPadnos> the one that was put on linuxcnc.org
[00:07:25] <SWPadnos> page 17, in particular
[00:08:15] <jepler> that's one of the ones I changed to be 85% of the width of the page
[00:08:32] <jepler> before it stuck a few inches off the side of the paper
[00:08:45] <jepler> however, I'm still a bit surprised at the result
[00:09:24] <SWPadnos> it's highly compressed somewhere in the process
[00:09:39] <SWPadnos> if only I could figure out how to look at the original on a BDI 4.30 install
[00:09:58] <SWPadnos> firefox will probably load it
[00:11:45] <SWPadnos> ok. the original isn't that good either. GIGO
[00:29:33] <jepler> the postscript document produced by 'dvips' has the same problem
[00:29:45] <jepler> but it looks ok in 'xdvi'
[00:30:05] <SWPadnos> the source image looks fairly crappy
[00:30:40] <jepler> not that crappy
[00:31:29] <jepler> bbl
[00:34:01] <SWPadnos> see you
[01:21:24] <Jymmm> Just walked in, someone having issues with a PDF?
[01:21:44] <Jymmm> or PS ?
[01:25:47] <SWPadnos> crappy images in the emc2 users guide
[01:25:55] <Jymmm> url?
[01:26:26] <SWPadnos> there's a perliminary version at: http://www.linuxcnc.org/EMC2_User_Manual.pdf
[01:26:46] <SWPadnos> the images started out kinda crappy, so it's no surprise they look bad in the pdf
[01:26:48] <Jymmm> page# ?
[01:27:10] <Jymmm> whats the source of the original images?
[01:28:49] <SWPadnos> page 17
[01:29:10] <SWPadnos> the images are in the documents module at cvs.linuxcnc.org
[01:34:59] <Jymmm> Hmmm, no resolution in the originals either
[01:35:23] <SWPadnos> yeah - they seemed kind of yucky to me
[01:37:09] <Jymmm> I just dumped ALL the iamges... not looking too good.
[01:37:40] <SWPadnos> nope
[01:39:18] <les_w> <cough>
[01:39:33] <Jymmm> the eps ones are fine =) (obviously)
[01:39:47] <SWPadnos> vector is so much better that way
[01:39:48] <Jymmm> les_w Um, hurnia test?
[01:39:56] <les_w> yeah.
[01:39:56] <SWPadnos> no comment
[01:39:59] <les_w> haha
[01:40:14] <les_w> just walked in to the office for a bit.
[01:41:19] <les_w> I was watching modern marvels in the music room but got bored.
[01:42:37] <les_w> I still have post quarterly meeting anxiety trauma.
[01:42:40] <SWPadnos> I was thinking about watching a couple of selections from Yanni: Live at the Acropoils
[01:43:10] <les_w> yanni got busted or something didn't he?
[01:43:38] <SWPadnos> I don't know
[01:43:42] <SWPadnos> too much hair, I guess
[01:43:46] <les_w> I think so
[01:43:58] <les_w> saw mug shots on cnn
[01:44:12] <les_w> family violence or something
[01:44:23] <SWPadnos> yep - "domestic battery"
[01:44:35] <les_w> ah
[01:45:14] <les_w> i'm not working tommorrow
[01:45:20] <les_w> need a break
[01:45:25] <SWPadnos> cool
[01:45:37] <SWPadnos> whatever will you do with al lthat time? ;)
[01:45:48] <les_w> have that 5 ton pile of manure with my name on it
[01:45:58] <les_w> front end loader!
[01:46:04] <les_w> tractor seat time
[01:46:08] <les_w> always good
[01:46:09] <SWPadnos> uh - have fun
[01:46:29] <les_w> oh...it's composted
[01:47:33] <les_w> I can take 500 lb bites with the bucket
[01:48:13] <les_w> good stuff really..."garden gold"
[01:48:17] <SWPadnos> for some reason "5 tons of manure" doesn't sound that good to me
[01:48:42] <SWPadnos> maybe it's because I used to take the school bus past a lot of farms that used nice fermented liquid manure every spring
[01:48:51] <les_w> all those years in school and what am I doing tommorrow?
[01:49:01] <les_w> haha
[01:49:23] <SWPadnos> shoveling shit, as it were
[01:49:30] <les_w> heh
[01:49:32] <les_w> yeah
[01:50:41] <les_w> diesel fuel is getting really expensive I notice
[01:50:46] <les_w> worse than gas
[01:51:32] <SWPadnos> military == diesel
[01:51:38] <les_w> yeah
[01:52:01] <les_w> well if things ever get really badI can just grow it
[01:52:38] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:52:50] <les_w> fatweed is about 20% fatty acid esters by weight
[01:53:13] <les_w> remove the glycerine....biodeisel!!
[01:53:56] <les_w> they are triglyceride esters.
[01:54:20] <les_w> I think
[01:55:43] <les_w> so...that big pile of manure can be a big tank of gas...If I need it to be
[01:59:59] <les_w> of course $3/gallon gas or diesel is still relatively cheap. May not stay that way though
[02:03:03] <SWPadnos> it's half of the cost in England (and most of Europe as well, I think)
[02:03:24] <SWPadnos> and it was that expensive a couple of years ago, when I was last there
[02:04:24] <les_w> yeah people can survive $6/galgas
[02:04:55] <les_w> at about $10 or so things would get significant
[02:08:31] <les_w> our basic suburb commute/ poor mass transit (compered to europe) would have to change
[02:08:43] <SWPadnos> well, since the only way to get people in this country to conserve resources is to make them unaffordable, I think $10/gallon gas would be a great benefit to the wrold ;)
[02:08:52] <SWPadnos> world, too
[02:09:15] <les_w> it'll happen
[02:09:31] <les_w> as sure as a loaf of bread will cost $20
[02:09:33] <Jymmm> Better not... I get bad gas mileage as it is.
[02:09:34] <SWPadnos> unfortunatrely, it'll probably happen just before we run out completely
[02:09:52] <SWPadnos> ie, too late to matter much
[02:10:30] <SWPadnos> we Americans tend to be too short sighted for our own good
[02:10:30] <les_w> aw, above a certain price ethanol and coal derivatives will kick in
[02:10:42] <les_w> prob at the $10 level or around that
[02:11:21] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I can't even fit into a majority of todays' cars. Not without removeing the front seat that is.
[02:11:35] <SWPadnos> heh - it's Police Academy all over again ;)
[02:12:25] <les_w> ethanol can be a joke if one considers thar petrochemical fertilizers are needed for production
[02:12:37] <les_w> politicians lioke to tout it
[02:12:45] <SWPadnos> yeah - the net energy is negative in a lot of scenarios
[02:12:52] <les_w> yup
[02:13:05] <Jymmm> What about this corn stuff? Or is that ethanol?
[02:13:11] <les_w> yeah
[02:13:18] <SWPadnos> and soy, I think
[02:13:36] <Jymmm> We got lots of soy, that's for sure.
[02:13:53] <Jymmm> I think we have more soy than any other crop
[02:13:53] <les_w> at least soy fixes nitrogen
[02:14:05] <les_w> corn is nitrogen hungry
[02:14:09] <SWPadnos> fixing carbon will be the big problem
[02:14:20] <Jymmm> make diamonds
[02:14:33] <SWPadnos> diamonds from air - that would be a great business plan
[02:15:12] <SWPadnos> I've thought about making petrochemicals from air (using solar energy for the endothermic reactions), but I'm not sure there's a reaction sequence that can do that
[02:15:35] <les_w> Im going for the magic 25:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio here
[02:16:29] <les_w> hmm petrochemicals from air.....
[02:16:45] <SWPadnos> all the components are there, I think. it's a matter of putting them back together
[02:16:58] <SWPadnos> maybe nanotech will be helpful someday
[02:17:11] <les_w> well, I am innoculating legumes to fix nitrogen better
[02:18:09] <les_w> but I get only about 200 lb nitrogen/acre year
[02:18:38] <les_w> better than nothing I guess
[02:18:42] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:18:54] <SWPadnos> if 1% of the population did that, we'd be a lot better off, I bet
[02:18:57] <Jymmm> hydrogen power!!!
[02:19:04] <les_w> yeah
[02:19:14] <les_w> 68 octane though
[02:19:27] <les_w> we can deal with that though
[02:19:50] <SWPadnos> it's funny. I was reading about jet fuel a bit last week
[02:20:15] <SWPadnos> it's not so explosive as people think - it's more like kerosene
[02:20:36] <SWPadnos> but very light (62.5% the density of water)
[02:20:36] <les_w> it pretty much is kerosene
[02:20:46] <SWPadnos> yeah - it's the energy density they're going for
[02:21:06] <SWPadnos> there was a contest on the flight to Las Vegas to guess the takeoff weight of the plane
[02:21:30] <SWPadnos> I won two tickets to see Blue Man Group
[02:21:42] <les_w> well I use 6 lbs/gal when doing weight and balance in piston aircraft
[02:21:51] <les_w> I don't get to fly jets
[02:22:05] <SWPadnos> I had mis-estimated the weights of the plane, the passengers, and the fuel, but I was only off by ~750 pounds with the total ;)
[02:22:10] <les_w> blue man group...from chicago...cool
[02:22:19] <SWPadnos> out of 157000 pounds or so
[02:22:25] <SWPadnos> yep, in Las Vegas
[02:22:41] <SWPadnos> haven't been yet - need to get tickets when I'm actually in town for more than 24 hours
[02:23:54] <les_w> the planes I fly have about a 10 inch range for cg....have to do some first moment calculations if you have a lot of fuel or are carriying lard asses in the back or both
[02:24:14] <SWPadnos> bummer.
[02:24:29] <SWPadnos> I've seen that on the smaller passenger jets as well (50 seats or less)
[02:24:41] <SWPadnos> they often ask a few people to move from the front of the plane to the rear
[02:24:55] <les_w> yeah
[02:25:47] <les_w> well cg too forward and things get too stable
[02:25:55] <les_w> hard to control pitch
[02:26:24] <les_w> cg too far back and stalls can be unrecoverable
[02:26:48] <les_w> spins too
[02:26:59] <SWPadnos> and that's no fun
[02:27:01] <les_w> but you can't spin without stalling
[02:27:42] <les_w> hi roguish
[02:28:00] <Roguish> hey
[02:35:55] <les_w> I think current training is a bit off...In my spin training half fuel and no back set pax were required to rech utility category where spins are approved
[02:36:16] <les_w> but the aircraft would not stay in a spin
[02:36:50] <les_w> If you had back seat guys and wake turbulence caused a spin
[02:37:02] <les_w> I would be totally unprepared.
[02:37:32] <les_w> to be fair, the FAA says just don't do spin training
[02:37:39] <les_w> I requested it
[02:37:46] <les_w> it's optional
[02:39:02] <les_w> I just refused to drive around in airplanes ithout ever having been in a spin
[02:39:07] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure my wife did spins / stalls in the limited flight training she took
[02:39:24] <les_w> it is required in canada
[02:39:42] <les_w> here we do stalls, but not spins
[02:40:18] <les_w> as I said most trainers wi8ll not spin in utility category anyway
[02:40:24] <SWPadnos> ok. I could be misremmebering (she did the flight training a couple of years before we met)
[02:40:52] <les_w> but lard asses in back....wake turbulence....and they will spin real good.
[02:41:04] <les_w> and we nevert get to experience that
[02:41:09] <SWPadnos> good to note ;)
[02:41:26] <SWPadnos> that's why I don't buy the chocolate covered donuts too often ;)
[02:42:04] <SWPadnos> they're too hard to resist eating
[02:42:34] <les_w> actually in utility an attempted spin turns into a dangerous spiral dive quickly.
[02:43:15] <les_w> My instructor said"count to 5 and you're dead"
[02:43:21] <les_w> if you do nothing
[02:43:42] <SWPadnos> that could be a bummer of a situation
[02:44:16] <les_w> well you get to vne and you could have stuctural failure
[02:44:27] <SWPadnos> vne?
[02:45:01] <les_w> velocity never exceed
[02:45:06] <les_w> oops spelling
[02:45:42] <les_w> basically, the wings MIGHT stay on
[02:46:05] <SWPadnos> well, the *never* in there is a good clue
[02:46:50] <les_w> yeah. In the planes I fly that speed is usually in the 200 mph range or so.
[02:47:07] <les_w> sometimes more, sometimes less
[02:47:35] <SWPadnos> ah - considerably slower than the ~200 MPH takeoff speed of the commercial jets ;)
[02:47:47] <les_w> jet airliners have vne of about 300 knots thogh
[02:47:54] <les_w> a little more
[02:48:10] <les_w> so how can they go 600 mph?
[02:48:21] <les_w> only at high altitude
[02:48:37] <SWPadnos> right - that's at stp
[02:48:45] <les_w> indicated airspeed is under 300
[02:48:54] <les_w> cause the air is thin up there
[02:50:10] <SWPadnos> the aairspeed is still high, but the pressure is lower than at ground level
[02:50:16] <les_w> oh well, I have the ratings, but not the money to fly jets
[02:50:42] <les_w> only single engine
[02:50:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:50:56] <SWPadnos> I only have the money to fly jets in coach ;)
[02:51:01] <les_w> heh
[02:51:12] <SWPadnos> at least I have the status to get the extra legroom seats in the front
[02:51:33] <les_w> oh I don't get to do that
[02:52:02] <les_w> bulkhead sets...lucky you
[02:52:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:52:25] <SWPadnos> exit row - even better
[02:52:33] <SWPadnos> I can hsrdly reach my stuff under the next seat
[02:52:36] <SWPadnos> hardly
[02:52:40] <SWPadnos> and I have long arms
[02:53:00] <les_w> but you have to agree to assist flight crew....
[02:53:08] <les_w> in exit rows
[02:53:12] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'm a young strapping male
[02:53:16] <les_w> haha
[02:55:20] <les_w> I can't make that claim...but I will move a few tons of cow poop tommorow
[02:55:34] <les_w> thanks to Mr. Otto diesel
[02:55:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:56:00] <jmkasunich> and Mr. <whoever invented the hydraulic cylinder>
[02:56:20] <les_w> Otto Hydraulic.
[02:56:34] <jmkasunich> go Otto H!
[02:56:41] <les_w> haha
[02:58:22] <SWPadnos> Otto Titslinger
[02:58:26] <SWPadnos> or was that Titsler
[02:59:00] <les_w> actually some roman I think
[02:59:24] <SWPadnos> boobus
[02:59:32] <les_w> haha
[03:00:09] <les_w> boobius maximus
[03:00:34] <les_w> cut it out...I don't want to think about my second wife....
[03:02:50] <Jymmm> lol
[03:37:21] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/demo_step_cl/demo_step_cl.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:21] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/sim/ (axis.ini mini.ini tkemc.ini): try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:21] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/hexapod-sim/minitetra.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:22] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/motenc/motenc.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:24] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/univpwm/univpwm.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:26] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/vti/vti.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:28] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/stg/stg.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:30] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/stepper-xyza/inch.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:33] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/max/max.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:35] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/stepper/ (stepper_inch.ini stepper_mm.ini): try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:38] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/demo_mazak/demo_mazak.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:37:41] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/m5i20/m5i20.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:38:00] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/etch-servo/etch.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:38:00] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/configs/univstep/univstep.ini: try again to fix tkemc help path, good grief
[03:38:19] <jmkasunich> good grief charlie brown
[03:38:28] <cradek> no kidding
[03:38:56] <cradek> just wait til you get all the emails
[03:42:43] <jmkasunich> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=33814
[03:42:50] <jmkasunich> 91 commit emails in May
[03:42:59] <jmkasunich> (its only the 3rd)
[03:43:03] <cradek> yeah we're very busy lately
[03:43:28] <cradek> wow it's quite the active project isn't it
[03:43:47] <cradek> funny how activity goes up in winter and down in summer
[03:44:07] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:45:48] <jmkasunich> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/emc
[04:24:02] <fenn> suspect it will go back down again after fest
[04:24:38] <jmkasunich> some
[04:24:52] <jmkasunich> hopefully people will go home with new ideas to implement
[04:25:02] <fenn> jmk that polar bear comic strip is awesome, i read the whole thing *hangs his head*
[04:25:20] <jmkasunich> heh
[04:25:34] <fenn> paintball is what got me interested in machining
[04:34:17] <Jymmm> fenn patinball did?
[04:52:37] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/ (5 files): Finished splitting Hal_Introduction.lxy into separate files, added a master file to assemble them into a book. The original Hal_Introduction is now deprecated and will be removed soon (once the conversion is verified)
[04:55:22] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:55:28] <Jymmm> jmkasunich removed?
[04:55:36] <Jymmm> not archived?
[04:55:46] <jmkasunich> nothing is truly removed from cvs
[04:56:00] <Jymmm> Oh, heh. G'night =)
[04:56:34] <jmkasunich> basically we moved the file to another directory (emc2 stuff is now separate from older stuff) and broke it into chapters for ease of editing
[04:56:40] <jmkasunich> but its exactly the same info
[04:57:04] <jmkasunich> I want to remove the old copy so people won't accidently spend hours adding new information to the old document instead of the new one
[04:57:06] <Jymmm> Ah, ok... I do that all the time
[04:57:50] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:57:58] <Jymmm> nite =)
[09:34:02] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/Master_User.lyx: justification full for hal sections
[10:34:27] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/Master_User.lyx: pagination using roman and arabic
[10:47:52] <fenn> anyone know where to get cheap threaded rod in australia?
[10:47:58] <fenn> acme threaded rod even
[10:52:21] <fenn> there is someone who found 1/2-6 in western australia, should i send him a message?
[10:52:25] <fenn> oops crap
[10:52:40] <fenn> wrong window
[11:07:44] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[11:33:22] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[12:06:36] <jepler> good morning guys
[12:51:41] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: FIx bug that prevented any variable used only once from being changed.
[13:08:51] <Bo^Dick> what's the difference between "hexfet" and mosfet?
[13:09:36] <Bo^Dick> or more right on target, which is most suitable for switching purposes?
[13:12:32] <jepler> Bo^Dick: I think "hexfet" may be a marketing term, but I'm not sure
[13:13:08] <jepler> "IR's HEXFET(R) brand of power MOSFETs set the standard for the industry" -- http://www.irf.com/product-info/hexfet/
[13:13:27] <Bo^Dick> ok
[13:13:57] <Bo^Dick> could a TIP31C be just as good for switching purposes?
[13:31:11] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: Fix ini section handling so that "out of order" AXIS sections are properly handled
[13:34:55] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: Oops - one more fix to handle ini section ordering
[13:47:25] <CIA-4> 03jepler 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/etch-servo/README: describe etch-servo
[13:47:45] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07HEAD * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: Remove unused debugging code
[13:53:40] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: Copy v1.30 from HEAD
[14:02:19] <CIA-4> 03swpadnos 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl: Fix boneheaded merge error
[14:21:45] <Bo^Dick> the "drain" is supposed to go to +5v and "source" to gnd right?
[15:26:32] <SkunkWorks> logger_aj: bookmark
[15:26:32] <SkunkWorks> See
[15:35:44] <bill203> Good morning.
[15:37:59] <Bo^Dick> if i've got a complex schematic design with a lots of ttl gates, is there no way whatsoever to have some kind of automation for the component placement?
[15:38:15] <SWPadnos> not in a free PCB program ;)
[15:38:28] <SWPadnos> it's not even that good in my $12000 package
[15:38:44] <Bo^Dick> so that feature must be very complicated to develop
[15:38:49] <SWPadnos> it is
[15:39:13] <SWPadnos> there is a nice feature that will automatically do pin/gate swapping to improve routing
[15:39:28] <Bo^Dick> allright?
[15:39:38] <SWPadnos> but that's in Altium, not Eagle
[15:39:56] <Bo^Dick> is Altium a $12000 software?
[15:40:14] <bill203> I have a (manual) machining question: Whats the best wat to bore a flat-bottomed hole, if it's bigger than any drill or endmill bits that I have? I've been doing it on the lathe, but it takes forever.
[15:40:15] <SWPadnos> you can get the PCB and schematic software for $10k
[15:40:24] <SWPadnos> add in the FPGA stuff, and it's $12k
[15:40:40] <SWPadnos> get a boring head
[15:40:54] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: that's boring
[15:41:03] <bill203> I have one.. just drill it as big as I can and bore it the rest of the way?
[15:41:06] <SWPadnos> I know, but I'm a geek - what can I say?
[15:41:17] <SWPadnos> yep. I think that's the best way
[15:41:29] <bill203> I spent an entire evening making one bearing-mount, it sucked.
[15:41:32] <SWPadnos> it should give you the closest to a circular hole you can get on a manual machine
[15:41:35] <bill203> I'm so slow..
[15:42:01] <SWPadnos> they're pretty precise hunks of metal. if it works, you did well ;)
[15:42:17] <bill203> it worked, but it took like 4 hours.
[15:42:23] <bill203> http://photos.xmission.com/bill/v/machining/IMG_0284.JPG.html
[15:42:34] <bill203> my mill project is starting to look like something...
[15:42:36] <bill203> almost.
[15:42:53] <SWPadnos> nice
[15:43:08] <bill203> thanks
[15:43:13] <Bo^Dick> most cadding program seem to pretty primitive. no automation whatsoever.
[15:43:18] <cradek> I wouldn't try that on anything but a lathe...
[15:43:38] <bill203> what sort of bit would you use to do it on a lathe?
[15:43:44] <cradek> I might use the cnc mill to cut it out in a helix first to get it close
[15:43:56] <SWPadnos> the cnc mill is a manual mill ;)
[15:44:06] <cradek> yeah I know, that sure makes it harder
[15:44:29] <SWPadnos> a rotary table is helpful for hogging it out
[15:44:31] <cradek> bill203: I would scratch my head over it for a bit: does the corner have to be square?
[15:44:37] <SWPadnos> then a boring bar or lathe for the final passes
[15:44:56] <bill203> I used something like this: http://www.thetoolgarage.com/images/aw2k/LotImg290.jpg
[15:45:06] <bill203> cradek, square enough for a bearing to seat.
[15:45:06] <cradek> bill203: a triangular insert tool could cut both the face and the shoulder
[15:45:28] <bill203> the hole was too small for my insert-holder to get in there. :-(
[15:45:44] <cradek> yeah, figures
[15:45:46] <bill203> I just have the regualr ebay-cheapie TCMT set.
[15:45:53] <cradek> all boring is a pain
[15:46:28] <bill203> I was thinking an endmill and a rotary table would rough it out pretty quick, then finish on the lathe.
[15:46:37] <bill203> another reason to get a rotary table, I guess.
[15:46:38] <cradek> that sounds like a great idea
[15:46:57] <cradek> oh you don't have one... not so great an idea then :-)
[15:47:23] <bill203> heh
[15:47:43] <cradek> you could cut a nice helix approximation for roughing if you had one
[15:47:51] <bill203> yeah.
[15:47:56] <bill203> save myself 2 hours.
[15:48:11] <cradek> does your lathe have a back gear? Could you just go get the drill you need?
[15:48:48] <bill203> back gear?
[15:48:54] <cradek> you could drill an awfully big hole with some lube and back gear
[15:49:01] <bill203> it's a chinese 7*10..
[15:49:07] <cradek> the extra gear that makes the spindle turn very slowly for threading
[15:49:32] <bill203> oh, uhm, it goes down to a few hundred rpm, but not slow enough to watch it turn.
[15:49:42] <bill203> so I'm gonna say: no.
[15:49:46] <Bo^Dick> but since i wanna do the component placement on this http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/Design/L297_sub.brd what should i look for in DC++?
[15:49:47] <cradek> yeah you can't drill very big with that
[15:50:19] <cradek> (not without some violent things happening)
[15:50:26] <Bo^Dick> 'cause there is no way i can with my low skills make anything decent from that
[15:50:39] <bill203> you can see it here, actually: http://scoot.net/garage/
[15:50:44] <bill203> my mini-machine-shop
[15:51:11] <bill203> the cameras light-level jumps around a lot, sometimes you have to reload to get a good picture.
[15:51:26] <cradek> looks familiar but mine's not so neat
[15:51:44] <bill203> heh, they get worse?!
[15:51:52] <cradek> haha
[15:52:21] <Bo^Dick> i guess you guys do boards sometimes?
[15:52:41] <Bo^Dick> all component placement and optimization by eye!?
[15:53:39] <alex_joni> Bo^Dick: that's the best way
[15:53:54] <alex_joni> but you need to make quite a few before you start to get it right (at least a dozen)
[15:53:56] <Bo^Dick> I'm dealing with professional cadders here
[15:54:07] <cradek> the "easiest" thing might be to generate postscript of your data
[15:54:09] <cradek> oops
[15:54:15] <alex_joni> cradek: ;-)
[15:55:02] <jepler> I'd say that .brd has a lot more components than on a typical project of mine
[15:56:17] <anonimasu> brd is eagle right?
[15:56:43] <jepler> anonimasu: yes
[15:56:59] <anonimasu> ok cant see em ;)
[15:58:08] <jepler> I don't think you'll fit all that stuff on the 100x80mm board size allowed by the freeware version
[17:22:44] <Bo^Dick> i've got some simple questions about eagle. is it possible to select a group of parts and make a new document containing a copy of that group? is it possible to show/hide the ratsnest selectively for particular nets?
[17:23:29] <SWPadnos> do you have the real eagle, or the free "light" version?
[17:23:59] <SWPadnos> I guess it must be real, or you wouldn't have been able to place parts where they were on that board
[17:31:18] <Bo^Dick> i've got the real version
[17:52:38] <jepler> wow the full version is not a small investment
[17:53:53] <SWPadnos> yes. that's part of why I just dove in and got Altium
[17:54:22] <jepler> $1200 .. wow
[17:55:55] <SWPadnos> $12000 ;)
[17:57:19] <jepler> no, I mean for Eagle
[17:57:26] <SWPadnos> right
[17:59:03] <jepler> Bo^Dick: I'm just surprised you bought it, since you don't part with money easily when it comes to parts
[17:59:31] <les_w> hi all
[17:59:37] <les_w> I'm off today
[18:00:20] <Bo^Dick> yeah, i'm surprised too
[18:00:30] <SWPadnos> done with the shit shoveling?
[18:00:43] <les_w> lost a chicken. She was setting. Eggs about ready to hatch to. damn
[18:00:46] <SWPadnos> err - Manure Moving
[18:00:54] <les_w> no, shoveled more today
[18:01:22] <les_w> about a ton I guess
[18:01:38] <Bo^Dick> it's a disappointment no advanced script files are available for eagle :(
[18:02:38] <fenn> chicken got stuck in the tiller eh
[18:06:07] <les_w> not sure. It wasn't a dog...the nest was too protected. Some other critter....hawk or opossum or something
[18:06:29] <les_w> I have seen lots of hawks around
[18:07:01] <fenn> vulpes vulpes batman!
[18:07:23] <les_w> i'll get some chicks to replace them
[18:07:40] <les_w> they are free range, so I expect to loose some
[18:08:08] <fenn> we are kinda in the city and have lots of predators around too
[18:08:25] <fenn> so the chickens havent been outside yet this year.. :/
[18:08:38] <les_w> you have some huh?
[18:08:47] <fenn> 22
[18:09:02] <les_w> Im from the city too....new to this
[18:09:27] <fenn> the chickens are someone else's project, i just watch curiously
[18:09:41] <les_w> except when defending a nest, they can usually get away from predators pretty well
[18:10:22] <fenn> in my back yard i have seen: owls, eagles, hawks, possums, dogs, a pair of coyotes, a fox..
[18:10:40] <les_w> too bad...that was the chicken that pecked the crap out of Paul Corner
[18:10:55] <les_w> haha
[18:11:58] <les_w> He was sitting on the porch reading a math book....chicken wanted food and walked up....then pecked him when he had no food!
[18:12:31] <les_w> I laughed and laughed
[18:13:10] <les_w> then the year before there was the famous episode where my ex wife forced him to eat grits
[18:13:25] <les_w> He just hated them
[18:13:57] <les_w> looked like he had a mouthfull of shit according to her
[18:14:09] <cradek> you'd think even grits would taste good to a brit - I have heard bad things about their food.
[18:14:11] <les_w> but she was cute, so he ate the grits.
[18:14:48] <les_w> Chris when I go to the UK I have the urge to take groceries
[18:14:50] <les_w> haha
[18:16:43] <Bo^Dick> i've got a design with 15 DIL14 packages and it is very messy. is it because i've placed the components in a poor way?
[18:17:09] <les_w> you need protel!
[18:17:44] <cradek> Bo^Dick: does the full version come with some kind of support? I think mine (nonprofit version) didn't
[18:18:37] <les_w> I got a seat from the tool works. Almost a crime since I almost never use it
[18:18:46] <les_w> I use the spice sometimes
[18:40:17] <alex_joni> spice is good :)
[18:40:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni loves spices
[19:10:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: is an encoder on a lathe with 100 holes/rev too coarse for a good thread cut?
[19:16:42] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/installing.lyx: the pdf created had problems wrapping the line
[19:17:12] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10documents/lyx/emc2/Master_User.lyx: paragraph justify for all the included files
[19:19:30] <Bo^Dick> exactly what does the "backwards annotation" feature do?
[19:23:15] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: does that give you 400 or 100 transitions per revolution? 400 is great, 100 is maybe a bit low
[19:23:52] <alex_joni> 100 holes usually gives 400 transitions
[19:23:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: there are 100 holes, so that would make a sqaure wave that has 100 repeats/turn, so 400 transitions
[19:24:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: how many holes does yours have?
[19:24:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: I've managed to get ahold of two EMCO compact 5's
[19:24:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> AFAIKT MK2
[19:28:20] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: the one on my mill has 400 transitions per revolution, the one on the borrowed lathe has 4096
[19:28:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is there any noticable difference between 400 and 4096?
[19:29:12] <cradek> you should do the math for your setup: consider that you want less than one transition per base period, consider your axis speed, consider what thread pitch you will want, and calculate the number of counts that's optimal
[19:29:39] <alex_joni> probably only limiting the speed on high rpm (as the parport can't keep up)
[19:29:50] <alex_joni> but it's better (4096) on low spins
[19:30:12] <cradek> say you have a base period of 20us, your axis can move 20ipm, you want to cut at least 10tpi, you can calculate the best spindle rpm and then from that the appropriate encoder resolution
[19:30:42] <cradek> yes more is better but it greatly limits the spindle rpm if you're counting in software
[19:31:10] <cradek> I think the lathe tops out theoretically at about 360 rpm so I run it at 250
[19:31:21] <cradek> (not sure about those numbers)
[19:34:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 360rpm?
[19:34:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> isn't that very low?
[19:34:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the ones I've got go to 3200rpm
[19:35:27] <cradek> you can't thread at that speed - your axis would have to move 160ipm to cut 20tpi
[19:35:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's true
[19:35:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> my axes can move at 700mm/min
[19:37:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and my base period is currently 20┬Ás
[19:37:05] <cradek> if you're going to be using software counting, be sure to figure all your numbers carefully before you order an expensive encoder!
[19:37:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I already have the encoder
[19:37:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it came with the lathes
[19:37:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which I got for cheap (free) :D
[19:37:50] <cradek> ok, free is a nice price, I don't have much experience with that
[19:38:05] <cradek> as always, donations happily accepted
[19:38:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> which is the same thing I told the people that gave them away ;)
[19:38:37] <cradek> haha yep
[19:38:52] <ValarQ> who wouldn't? :)
[19:39:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the weight makes shipping prohibitive though, they weigh something like 70kg each and are very bulky
[19:39:09] <cradek> you'll have to send them some beer/pizza/pie
[19:39:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I bought them some cake
[19:39:22] <cradek> perfect
[19:40:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hopefully I'll be able to gut the controlling system and use the stepper drivers and get EMC to control them
[19:40:13] <cradek> sounds like a fun project
[19:40:27] <cradek> too bad you can't come to fest in a couple weeks, you could convert them there
[19:40:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the fest is in the US I guess?
[19:41:31] <cradek> yes
[19:41:42] <cradek> western illinois
[19:42:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh, that's a bit far for me
[19:42:22] <cradek> I figured
[19:42:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> we swede's will have to get our own one going ;)
[19:43:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the people that gave them to me seemed very surprized that I was going to "make my own" controller system
[19:43:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> something like that seems to be out of the scope for most CNC people it seems
[19:43:52] <cradek> it's true machinists don't necessarily know electronics or software
[19:44:34] <alex_joni> cradek: true the other way around too..
[19:44:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[19:44:49] <alex_joni> give a software guy a lathe and let him make a bolt
[19:44:50] <cradek> right
[19:45:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I guess software/(machine)-hardware people are rather unusual
[19:45:59] <cradek> /help window
[19:46:15] <cradek> argh
[19:46:19] <alex_joni> lol
[19:46:37] <cradek> * cradek waves his arms
[19:46:46] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is busy on the floor
[19:47:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra is still completly concentrating on the lathes
[19:47:54] <Jymmm> cradek: alex_joni lies... I see him getting a beer fro the fridge!
[19:48:18] <alex_joni> what?
[19:48:19] <alex_joni> what?
[19:48:54] <alex_joni> wasn't me
[19:49:17] <Jymmm> alex_joni: If it wasn't you, then wipe the beer mustache off your face!
[19:49:29] <alex_joni> I just shaved it off this morning
[19:50:31] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Uh Huh, your lucky you dont get a MUI!
[19:50:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lathe1ue.jpg
[19:51:12] <Jymmm> alex_joni: MUI Maching while Under the Influence!
[19:51:32] <jepler> mail user interface?
[19:51:34] <cradek> neat
[19:52:00] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: no tailstocks?
[19:52:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> programming stuff in the lathe is a real PITA
[19:52:09] <Lerneaen_Hydra> tailstocks?
[19:52:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, "dubbdocka"
[19:52:19] <cradek> ?
[19:52:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes there is one but I removed it for the moment
[19:52:29] <cradek> ah
[19:52:32] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'm not used to the english terms
[19:52:39] <Lerneaen_Hydra> a small one made from zinc
[19:52:41] <cradek> right
[19:52:49] <cradek> like alex, your english is so good I forget
[19:52:52] <Lerneaen_Hydra> or well, the base is
[19:53:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the travel is only 35mm though
[19:53:13] <alex_joni> cradek: I'll soon talk magyar with ya all
[19:53:15] <cradek> travel of what?
[19:53:32] <cradek> oh the tailstock
[19:53:50] <cradek> that's probably typical for such a small machine
[19:54:00] <cradek> sherline's is about like that I think
[19:54:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, ok
[19:55:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> there was both a... uh... pointy-stick-that-you-push-into-a-pre-drilled-hole-that-has-a-bevel-thingy (*dubb*docka) and a chuck for drills
[19:55:45] <cradek> it's scary how you have to reach over the work to estop - seems like that should be in front
[19:55:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh, yes that is rather inconvenient
[19:56:09] <cradek> ah the pointy stick is a "center"
[19:56:23] <cradek> "live center" has bearings, "dead center" is just a point that you oil
[19:56:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what's also rather inconvenient is that pressing estop wipes the memory as it only is ram :(
[19:56:33] <cradek> the chuck is ... a chuck
[19:56:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it's a live center then
[19:56:46] <cradek> oh haha that's terrible
[19:56:54] <alex_joni> no SRAM ?
[19:56:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so you have to reload the program from tape
[19:57:01] <alex_joni> I mean battery backed up
[19:57:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> take about 90 seconds
[19:57:15] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it has a small digital tape casette
[19:57:17] <cradek> paper tape or magnetic tape?
[19:57:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> magnetic
[19:57:24] <cradek> oh good
[19:57:28] <cradek> that's a LITTLE less of a pain
[19:57:30] <Lerneaen_Hydra> similar to an automatic answering machine
[19:57:38] <cradek> seems like you should use emc doesn't it
[19:57:45] <alex_joni> indeed it does :)
[19:57:45] <Lerneaen_Hydra> however making the program in the first place is the real program
[19:58:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the only way to see what you're doing is a 6-char numeric display a 6 LED-s
[19:58:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and the numpad
[19:58:22] <Jymmm> cradek: I don't know if it's scarry or a good thing that you actually needed to ask... Paper or Plastic =)
[19:58:27] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes, I really really want EMC on it ;)
[19:58:43] <cradek> it looks like it will make a great conversion
[19:58:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the thing is from 1981 though
[19:59:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> fortunately everthing inside has its own dedicated PCB, so I save the PSU, motor driver, and stepper drivers
[19:59:17] <cradek> I wonder if it can even do coordinated moves (or arcs)
[19:59:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> arcs is doable
[19:59:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> coordinated movies up to 1:39
[19:59:52] <Jymmm> cradek is there any way to transfer paper if that was the case?
[19:59:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> minimum step of 1.3-something /100 mm
[20:00:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (by 1:39 I mean a cone with a ratio of 1:39)
[20:00:17] <cradek> Jymmm: sure, I've done some of that, you just need a tape reader with a serial port
[20:00:36] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is the output paper with holes? or maybe ink?
[20:00:42] <cradek> holes
[20:01:01] <Jymmm> cradek: Oh, well that make it much easier, thought it might have been some funky encoding method
[20:01:20] <cradek> Jymmm: no, just 7 or 8 holes across the tape
[20:01:36] <cradek> Jymmm: so you could read it by hand if you didn't have a reader
[20:01:36] <Jymmm> oh, ascii ?
[20:01:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 8 holes wide by however many byts the app is?
[20:01:49] <cradek> right
[20:02:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> sounds very archivable
[20:02:02] <cradek> a gcode program would surely have been 7 bit ascii
[20:02:04] <Jymmm> ah, someone was thinking that day
[20:02:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> at least moreso than a CD-R
[20:02:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the valume is a bit greater though;)
[20:02:33] <cradek> yeah it would be good for archiving, especially the mylar tape, but the density is extremely low
[20:02:41] <Jymmm> cradek so the reader is just some opto thingy?
[20:02:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra really hopes the reader isn't mechanical
[20:02:59] <cradek> some were even mechanical I think
[20:02:59] <alex_joni> Jymmm: used to be mechanic
[20:03:11] <cradek> both mine are optical
[20:03:34] <cradek> one is high speed and can read tape at 1200 baud. Do NOT get in the way of it!
[20:03:59] <Jymmm> lol... I bet
[20:04:09] <Jymmm> hell, irc is like 300 baud
[20:04:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 1200baud? that's fast, what is the distance between the holes?
[20:04:33] <cradek> I can't remember if the punch is 110 or 300 baud, it might be able to do both
[20:04:37] <jepler> http://www.pdp8.net/pc04/pc04.shtml
[20:05:04] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: 1/8 or .1 inch maybe? not sure
[20:05:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's still very many inches/sec of paper that goes through it
[20:05:44] <Jymmm> jepler thanks
[20:05:51] <cradek> remember that's 1200 bits, not bytes
[20:05:56] <cradek> but yeah, it's fast
[20:06:09] <alex_joni> baud doesn't say anything about bits :)
[20:06:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, 1200bits
[20:06:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so 1200/8 -> 150 bytes/sec
[20:06:40] <Jymmm> communications is always in bits, not bytes
[20:06:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's still respectable
[20:06:49] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I tend to disagree
[20:07:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> even by todays standards (for text and the like)
[20:07:04] <alex_joni> at least on more modern modems a baud is 2-4 bits
[20:07:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 150chars/s
[20:07:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> more than enough for CNC
[20:07:41] <Jymmm> alex_joni You can disagree, but what about a modem... it's 56K bits, not bytes
[20:08:29] <cradek> Jymmm: yes but more than one bit is sent at a time so it's lower than 56kbaud; alex_joni is technically right
[20:09:08] <cradek> that's why they changed to saying 'kbps' for modems: baud = bit stopped being true
[20:09:09] <alex_joni> guess we're both right
[20:09:37] <alex_joni> Jymmm: phone lines allow something like 14 kbaud
[20:09:40] <jepler> baud = symbols per second
[20:09:48] <jepler> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud
[20:09:55] <alex_joni> and that stays fixed (baud = changes / second)
[20:10:12] <jepler> "Thus, a 2400 bit/s modem actually transmits at 600 baud (600 symbols/sec), where each quadrature amplitude modulation symbol carries four bits of information"
[20:10:25] <jepler> (despite being universally called a "2400 baud modem")
[20:11:03] <cradek> yep
[20:11:08] <alex_joni> I wouldn't have chosen symbol as a name, but that's it
[20:11:09] <alex_joni> :)
[20:11:18] <cradek> nothing since 300 baud modems transferred only one bit at a time
[20:11:38] <cradek> mtx status
[20:11:41] <alex_joni> on very old modems (no fancy encoding), you even had it the other way around
[20:11:43] <cradek> ARGH
[20:12:02] <alex_joni> one baud = less than one bit
[20:12:09] <jepler> that I've never heard of
[20:12:12] <alex_joni> because you had to transmit parity & all that
[20:12:25] <alex_joni> so to transmit 8 bits, you had at least 9 bauds
[20:12:36] <alex_joni> start, stop & parity bits
[20:13:05] <alex_joni> but that was before 'advanced' modulation schemes
[20:13:20] <alex_joni> like phase modulation & frequency modulation
[20:13:24] <jepler> that's certainly never how I thought about it
[20:14:10] <alex_joni> seems some did think like that about it.. (I remember reading it like that way back)
[20:17:21] <Jymmm> Alright... what's the OLDEST storage technology you've used (not hobby)? cassette and 8" Floppy here.
[20:17:55] <alex_joni> depends how zou rule hobby out
[20:18:27] <cradek> yeah the spec is ambiguous :-)
[20:18:32] <alex_joni> depends how you rule hobby out
[20:18:39] <Jymmm> Since cradek is building an Altar, it doens't count =)
[20:18:56] <alex_joni> I only started working a few years ago...
[20:19:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> <smart alek response> my brain's memory (in use since 1 billion - 500 million years ago)
[20:19:15] <alex_joni> so that probably means I didn't even use 3.5 floppies for work
[20:19:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (not my brain as such, just the format)
[20:19:27] <cradek> I used cassette for a long time on my "real" computer at the time, don't know if you count that or not
[20:19:33] <Jymmm> alex_joni not necessarily c/NC
[20:19:39] <alex_joni> no, I mean WORK
[20:19:53] <cradek> then lots of different floppy based machines
[20:20:05] <alex_joni> I had a few myself, but at home
[20:20:10] <cradek> yeah at home
[20:20:11] <alex_joni> or in school
[20:20:34] <SWPadnos> memory cartridges for the Exidy Sorcerer computer
[20:20:51] <cradek> I've also used computers with no mass storage whatsoever, but for fun, not for any purpose except learning
[20:21:07] <alex_joni> I remember playing my first game on 8" floppies (at my dad's working place)
[20:21:20] <cradek> alex_joni: adventure?
[20:21:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: no mass storage? which storage did it have? only rom+ram?
[20:21:30] <alex_joni> cradek: star wars (text mode)
[20:21:49] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: I think just ram for the simplest one (KIM-1)
[20:21:57] <cradek> just a hex keypad for entering your program
[20:22:03] <Jymmm> * Jymmm misses BBS'es
[20:22:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> eugh.
[20:22:14] <Jymmm> Trade Wars 2000!!!
[20:23:25] <jepler> I programmed on an Atari 2600. There was a "BASIC" cartridge. IIRC you could write a program up to 63 bytes long.
[20:23:39] <jepler> there was no storage after you turned it off, of course
[20:24:25] <Jymmm> Heh... Vic-20 had 3.2K ram =)
[20:24:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 63 bytes? isn't that like 10-20 rows?
[20:24:48] <alex_joni> heh, I remember playing a lot on spectrum later (some 8080 system), and it even had a BASIC voice synthesizer
[20:24:58] <alex_joni> that was very advanced stuff :)
[20:25:01] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's almost in the realm of magnetoring storage
[20:25:59] <jepler> http://www.atariage.com/screenshot_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=908
[20:26:03] <jepler> it can't have looked this bad onscreen
[20:26:54] <jepler> http://www.videogamecritic.net/2600bb.htm#Basic_Programming
[20:27:43] <Jymmm> Oh man... Berzerk
[20:28:24] <Jymmm> Breakout 1978... yeow
[20:36:09] <cradek> I think anything that doesn't use removable media is not a backup
[20:36:14] <cradek> wrong window again
[20:36:19] <alex_joni> dang :)
[20:36:26] <cradek> good grief
[20:36:29] <SkunkWorks> :)
[20:36:31] <cradek> who let the newbies in this channel?
[20:36:52] <SkunkWorks> cradek: have you ever set up software raid on ubuntu?
[20:36:52] <alex_joni> dunno.. but they are everywhere
[20:37:13] <cradek> SkunkWorks: I installed on spanned drives once, it was hard
[20:38:23] <cradek> haha programs up to 63 characters in size
[20:38:26] <SkunkWorks> cradek: great :) We have 4 9gb drives I would like to setup as raid 5. doing a bunch of research right now. Damn linux users assume some sort of base knowlege of linux.
[20:38:49] <cradek> SkunkWorks: sounds interesting but don't look at me for help
[20:38:51] <Jymmm> SkunkWorks: THOSE BASTARDS!
[20:39:10] <SWPadnos> u n00b. dont u no n/ething?
[20:39:17] <SkunkWorks> cradek: no problem. we will get it - it just might take a few tries :)
[20:39:23] <SWPadnos> ur such a luzer! ;)
[20:39:41] <cradek> "your a looser" haha
[20:39:53] <SWPadnos> I love the contraction of "any" to "n/e" - that always gets me
[20:39:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:39:58] <SkunkWorks> SWPadnos: it things like - partition all drives your going to use in the array. Make array. done
[20:40:03] <cradek> wish I could spell "a" wrong but I can't figure out how
[20:40:08] <SWPadnos> u
[20:40:12] <SWPadnos> sounds like a
[20:40:20] <cradek> "uh"
[20:40:28] <SWPadnos> or the fonzie approach - aaaaaayyyyyyy
[20:40:51] <SWPadnos> mkraid is your friend, unless they changed the name
[20:41:02] <SkunkWorks> mdadm?
[20:41:08] <SWPadnos> hey - could be
[20:41:11] <SkunkWorks> is what I got out of it so far.
[20:41:45] <alex_joni> madam
[20:41:56] <SWPadnos> Madam, I'm Adam
[20:42:02] <SkunkWorks> http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_software_raid
[20:42:14] <SkunkWorks> one of the links I have been working with/
[20:42:36] <SkunkWorks> I was going to ask on #ubuntu but I think I would have vertigo before I was done.
[20:42:40] <Jymmm> SkunkWorks: Wait a sec.... how are you getting five drives on to a mobo ?
[20:42:47] <SkunkWorks> scsi
[20:42:54] <cradek> haha newbie
[20:42:54] <Jymmm> ah
[20:43:00] <cradek> there's two of us now
[20:43:11] <Jymmm> cradek he never said scsi =)
[20:43:21] <alex_joni> Jymmm: even IDE+sata gives you 8 HDD's these days
[20:43:27] <cradek> no but he said 5 9-gig drives
[20:43:41] <Jymmm> fair enough
[20:43:46] <alex_joni> yup, 9-gig is a standard SCSI drive
[20:43:51] <SWPadnos> I've got a motherboard that has 6 IDE ports, so 12 drives
[20:44:01] <SWPadnos> 8 drives RAID, 4 on the "standard" connectors
[20:44:11] <Jymmm> mine does 8 IDE, but uncommon
[20:44:15] <alex_joni> it's almost like that's the only size they ever made (I'm sure that's not true..)
[20:44:19] <SkunkWorks> actually said 4 - but there are 8 in the server. 4 are used for a windows 2000 raid
[20:44:36] <alex_joni> icky
[20:44:39] <SWPadnos> that's normal these days, if you can find PATA motherboards (most have 2-8 SATA + the 2 PATA connectors)
[20:45:21] <Jymmm> SkunkWorks: Eh, buy two 300gb and mirror the bastards =)
[20:45:40] <alex_joni> better buy 3 of them, and setup RAID-5
[20:46:05] <Jymmm> 4 for a hot spare
[20:46:12] <alex_joni> even better :)
[20:46:29] <alex_joni> but that probably needs a hardware RAID to work properly (I think?)
[20:46:50] <Jymmm> I don't care for SW RAID for the simple fact if something fubars' it's gonna be a royal pita to recover.
[20:47:10] <Jymmm> mobo, controller, etc
[20:48:03] <SkunkWorks> SWPadnos: I thought it was you that said that linux software raid performs better most of the time than the hardware raid solutions.
[20:48:11] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:48:24] <les_w> ooh...just got a memo indicating the new president of binks and devilbiss spray finishing systems will have a visit
[20:48:27] <les_w> gulp.
[20:48:48] <SWPadnos> les_w, best to get the rest of the shit out of the way ;)
[20:48:56] <les_w> yeah.
[20:49:04] <les_w> It might be good or bad
[20:49:04] <SWPadnos> or paint it
[20:49:13] <Jymmm> les_w or quickly get 9 holes up and going!
[20:49:17] <les_w> she might not go for this way out technology
[20:49:21] <alex_joni> use lots of fragrance to mask it
[20:49:33] <SWPadnos> SkunkWorks, look at EVMS
[20:50:19] <SWPadnos> http://howtos.linux.com/guides/EVMSUG/
[20:50:20] <les_w> new president is a lady...and I don't know her
[20:50:31] <alex_joni> les_w: yet
[20:50:44] <les_w> oh well I have always been a paint spray gun junkie
[20:51:43] <les_w> the Binks part of the company actually invented the paint spray gun
[20:52:01] <alex_joni> binks is a good company
[20:52:05] <alex_joni> I even heard of them :D
[20:52:20] <les_w> if you don't count those cave paintings in the french caves made by blowing charcoal out of the mouth
[20:52:21] <alex_joni> devilbiss too
[20:52:35] <les_w> gulp.
[20:53:36] <alex_joni> hmm.. does anyone know how to change desktops on Ubuntu using only the keyboard?
[20:53:54] <SWPadnos> I can't even log out on ubuntu without the mouse
[20:54:03] <bill203> try control-arrow
[20:54:09] <alex_joni> alt-f1 gives you the menu
[20:54:23] <alex_joni> bill203: nope :(
[20:54:39] <bill203> ahhh, that's what I have set up.
[20:54:53] <alex_joni> how did you set it up then?
[20:55:25] <bill203> thru the window manager gnone-control-panel, if I remember right.
[20:57:39] <SkunkWorks> SWPadnos: thanks = have you used this?
[20:57:43] <SWPadnos> nope
[20:57:50] <alex_joni> bill203: care to share where that is?
[20:59:27] <bill203> I'm not sitting at my ubuntu machine right now, but I *think* its under the 'system' menu at the upper left.
[21:01:47] <alex_joni> ok, thanks
[21:03:03] <alex_joni> I see.. the defaults are 'ctrl'+'alt'+'left & right'
[21:04:08] <alex_joni> hmm... lots of nice shortcuts (had no idea that 'alt'+print takes a screenshot of the current window)
[21:04:38] <SkunkWorks> wow - they coppied that from windoze :)
[21:07:46] <alex_joni> one of these days you'll say they copied Xgl from vista
[21:08:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> goodnight all
[21:15:55] <Jymmm> alt? it's usually CTRL+PRSC
[21:16:55] <Jymmm> CTRL+ALT+Fn
[21:16:59] <Jymmm> iirc
[21:17:07] <Jymmm> or CTRL+ALT+n
[21:17:18] <Jymmm> oh, that's consoles, nm
[21:17:36] <SkunkWorks> ctrl+prsc - does the whole screen on windows alt+prsc does just active window
[21:17:41] <cradek> maybe try vesa
[21:18:01] <Jymmm> SkunkWorks : oooooooooh, lemmi try that!!!
[21:18:44] <Jymmm> fuckin ah alright! that's pretty cool... learn somethng new everyday!!!
[21:20:55] <SkunkWorks> Jymmm: your on a windows machine right now?
[21:21:05] <Jymmm> SkunkWorks yep
[21:21:16] <SkunkWorks> :)
[21:21:34] <SkunkWorks> or maybe :(
[21:22:15] <Jymmm> Between the KVM, synegry2, and VNC, I'm on everything =)
[21:22:32] <alex_joni> does synergy work ok?
[21:22:59] <Jymmm> alex_joni Synergy2 is a network KVM softa thing, not CAD.
[21:23:12] <Jymmm> synergy2.df.net
[21:23:18] <Jymmm> http://synergy2.sf.net
[21:23:26] <Jymmm> that works awesome
[21:23:27] <alex_joni> I know what it is
[21:23:33] <jepler> oh, it's like a super x2vnc
[21:23:39] <alex_joni> but never got around to install it
[21:23:54] <jepler> sounds neat
[21:24:07] <Jymmm> It has it's lil quirks, but works great. I love the copy and paste between machines
[21:24:08] <alex_joni> and I don't have many machines sitting next to each other
[21:24:22] <alex_joni> does it show display too?
[21:24:30] <alex_joni> or only mouse/keyb stuff?
[21:24:49] <Jymmm> alex_joni no, you need multipe CRTs, but only one mouse/kybd for all the machines.
[21:25:09] <Jymmm> I go between my laptop and desktop primarily
[21:25:36] <alex_joni> Jymmm: that was my understanding too
[21:25:49] <alex_joni> not of much use to me..
[21:26:06] <Jymmm> alex_joni you probably want a network KVM switch then
[21:26:15] <alex_joni> VNC is ok
[21:26:20] <Jymmm> or vnc
[21:26:27] <alex_joni> and ssh is enough most of the time :)
[21:26:49] <SkunkWorks> I use tightvnc all the time for home stuff
[21:26:53] <alex_joni> I suck at X-stuff, only know my way around the console.. (a bit)
[21:27:42] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I tried reading but couldn't figure out the difference?
[21:28:05] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, what?
[21:28:11] <Jymmm> vnc -vs- tightvnc
[21:28:25] <alex_joni> Jymmm: that was SkunkWorks not SWPadnos
[21:28:37] <Jymmm> my bad
[21:28:40] <SWPadnos> thank you
[21:28:43] <Jymmm> * Jymmm pokes SkunkWorks
[21:28:51] <alex_joni> np swampy :)
[21:28:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos (just keeping you on your toes)
[21:29:59] <SWPadnos> I'm sitting, I'll have you know
[21:34:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos toe exercises =)
[21:44:04] <alex_joni> he'd make a nice ballerina
[21:44:11] <alex_joni> one of these days
[21:44:37] <Jymmm> * Jymmm begins a collections to get SWPadnos a "pretty In Pink" Tutu!
[21:45:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni donates from the little money he has
[21:49:37] <SWPadnos> yay
[21:50:49] <Jymmm> I'm thinking http://www.tutu.com/images/gallery/Pinktutuprg.jpg
[21:51:19] <Jymmm> maybe http://www.tutu.com/images/gallery/sugarplum-40prg.jpg
[21:51:47] <alex_joni> http://membres.lycos.fr/cratchu/hpbimg/Pink_Tutu_a.jpg <- that's more classy
[21:52:09] <Jymmm> http://www.tutu.com/gallery_ct2.html
[23:28:53] <jmkasunich> wow....
[23:29:03] <jmkasunich> ubuntu updates: downloading file 3 of 67
[23:29:45] <alex_joni> yup, lots of X updates
[23:29:57] <alex_joni> morning john
[23:30:11] <jmkasunich> evening alex ;-L
[23:30:14] <jmkasunich> oops
[23:30:15] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[23:49:53] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymmmm