#emc | Logs for 2006-04-22

[01:27:26] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmmmmm
[01:32:47] <Jymmmmmm> Jymmmmmm is now known as Jymmm
[02:11:36] <wholepair> hello
[02:12:13] <jmkasunich> hi
[02:12:53] <wholepair> I cant get my axis enable to work in hal file for my machine configuration
[02:14:00] <wholepair> newsig enable_out bit
[02:14:10] <wholepair> linksp enable-out iocontrol.0.enable-out
[02:14:20] <wholepair> linksp enable-out parport.0.pin-01-out
[02:17:39] <jmkasunich> what are you trying to do, enable a stepper drive?
[02:18:52] <wholepair> yeah - there is an enable that will turn all three of my drives on - gecko320s - in TurboCNC I had to set them sep for each axis - the three lines above were suggested by alex_joni
[02:20:38] <jmkasunich> I don't see any pin called iocontrol.0.enable-out
[02:20:45] <jmkasunich> there is an iocontrol.0.user-enable-out
[02:21:25] <wholepair> when I start emc from the terminal it says - HAL: ERROR: pin 'iocontrol.0.enable-out' not found
[02:21:38] <wholepair> should I use what you just said
[02:21:52] <jmkasunich> right, because the linksp command is looking for that pin and it doesn't exist
[02:21:58] <jmkasunich> it depends
[02:22:17] <jmkasunich> do you want the geckos to turn on when you come out of estop? or when you go to machine on?
[02:22:28] <wholepair> the one you just stated is used on a line that says estop loopback
[02:22:36] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:23:01] <jmkasunich> that signal goes true when you come out of estop
[02:24:21] <jmkasunich> wholepair: are you still using tkemc?
[02:26:19] <wholepair> what I want is: my physical machine E-stop is on pin 13 normaly closed and when I push the big red button I want the machine to stop - I also have pin one wired to enable on the machine - so I gues I want pin one to go low when pin 13 goes high
[02:26:59] <jmkasunich> _and_ you want emc to estop when you push the red button
[02:27:55] <wholepair> yeah - there is no need for emc to continue running a program if I hit estop on machine -
[02:28:39] <jmkasunich> well, the preferred way to do an external estop is with ladder logic
[02:29:15] <wholepair> Is ladder logic stated in the hal file
[02:29:28] <jmkasunich> no, unfortunately its another bit of config
[02:29:41] <jmkasunich> it can be extremenly powerfull if you have a complex machine
[02:29:53] <jmkasunich> its kinda overkill for a single estop button tho
[02:31:08] <wholepair> my machine isnt complex - see: http://www.bikegeeks.com/EMC2_Configuration/ -
[02:32:12] <wholepair> do you think I should skip my external estop and just use the software one? everything else is settup - step and direction, limits, spindle on off.
[02:32:29] <wholepair> the last two things Im confused about are enable and estop
[02:32:29] <jmkasunich> you could do that for now
[02:32:44] <jmkasunich> is your external estop a momentary button, or a maintained one?
[02:32:58] <jmkasunich> momentary - you push and release, it pops back out ready to go again
[02:33:14] <jmkasunich> maintained - you push, it goes in and stays in untill you pull it out
[02:33:27] <wholepair> it's a maintained one - the kind that you have to twist to revert to normaly open state.
[02:33:42] <|Magician|> Personally...I think that a hardware E-stop is a good idea always
[02:34:12] <jmkasunich> I agree external estop is important
[02:34:31] <jmkasunich> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?Sample_HAL_And_ClassicLadder
[02:34:50] <jmkasunich> the link is an example using ladder logic for estop
[02:34:59] <|Magician|> In a panic its easy to find
[02:35:05] <wholepair> ME TOO! - I am sorry to just get you started and then have to go but something has come up - thanks for your help - I will save the wiki url for later :-( - bye
[02:35:12] <jmkasunich> there are actually 4 different ways of doing it in the example, you can pick the one you want
[02:35:19] <|Magician|> a lot easier to smack a button than it is to hunt down a key
[02:35:26] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:44:45] <jmkasunich> darn.... he left before I realized there's an easier way
[02:45:04] <jmkasunich> (actually before cradek reminded me theres an easier way)
[02:45:14] <cradek> darn
[02:45:25] <cradek> reminded? you mean shot in the dark?
[02:46:59] <SWPadnos> it looked to me like the estop button actually does stop the machine
[02:47:14] <jmkasunich> ?
[02:47:18] <SWPadnos> the comment "emc doesn't need to keep running if I hit estop"
[02:47:25] <jmkasunich> oh
[02:47:55] <SWPadnos> that made me think that the machine would stop anyway, and it's just a courtesy to notify emc
[02:47:56] <jmkasunich> should be "emc damn well better stop running if I hit estop"
[02:48:12] <SWPadnos> if the machine is disabled/depowered, it doesn't really matter
[02:48:21] <jmkasunich> I don't think he has a hardwired estop
[02:48:39] <jmkasunich> from his webpage: E-stop = Pin 13 (Wired with Normally Closed contact)
[02:49:20] <SWPadnos> he also agreed wholeheartedly that an external EStop is important (though that could have just been an external button)
[02:49:56] <jmkasunich> I think he was considering the "find it in a hurry" factor, not the "never trust software" factor
[02:50:27] <SWPadnos> could well be
[02:52:32] <jmkasunich> decisions like "external hardwired estop" vs "external estop button that goes thru software to stop" vs "GUI estop button only" are decisions that the machine builder must make for himself
[02:52:53] <jmkasunich> what is appropriate for a sherline isn't neccessarily appropriate for a bridgeport
[02:53:09] <SWPadnos> not a Mazak ;)
[02:53:11] <SWPadnos> nor
[02:53:15] <jmkasunich> right
[02:54:43] <SWPadnos> actually, that would be a great class at the workshop - safety
[02:54:49] <SWPadnos> and controls
[02:55:08] <jmkasunich> maybe
[02:55:18] <jmkasunich> I'm not really sure I even want to go there
[02:55:28] <SWPadnos> it would be great. probably not great for one or more of us to teach it, but still a good subject ;)
[02:55:48] <jmkasunich> I sure as hell don't want to have someone come back to me and say "you said that would be safe"
[02:56:01] <jmkasunich> when in fact they didn't understand what I said at all
[02:56:18] <SWPadnos> that's true. plus there's the - erm - discussion we often have on these lists
[02:56:26] <SWPadnos> (we being various members of the emc community)
[02:56:36] <jmkasunich> the way I see it, if you have to ask me how to put together a safe machine, you aren't qualified to put together a safe machine
[02:56:50] <SWPadnos> but the corollary is also true
[02:57:01] <jmkasunich> which is?
[02:57:02] <SWPadnos> if you refuse to learn what's safe, you aren't qualified either
[02:57:28] <jmkasunich> true
[02:58:53] <jmkasunich> my concern is that people really do have to _learn_
[02:59:17] <jmkasunich> not just follow some step by step instructions from somebody like me who is a thousand miles away and doesn't know their situation
[02:59:25] <SWPadnos> agreed
[02:59:31] <jmkasunich> they need to truly understand the system they are building
[02:59:41] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't want to "show" people how to do safe things.
[02:59:43] <jmkasunich> if they need help with details like hal pins, thats fine
[03:00:02] <SWPadnos> I'd want more of an overview, and things to think avbbout when designing a "safe" machine
[03:00:40] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:02:08] <jmkasunich> I think even the tiny sherline drive box has a red estop button that kills power to the drives (hardwired estop, no software involvement)
[03:05:12] <SWPadnos> I'd hope that any turnkey system would have at least a power cutoff for estop
[03:05:26] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:08:38] <fenn> i got a shiny red button from the scrapyard a couple days ago
[03:09:04] <fenn> it'll be a while before i can use it though
[03:09:48] <fenn> i made a tap from some acme threaded rod - boy it is easy and WORKS!
[03:10:07] <cradek> no way
[03:10:43] <fenn> you're just jealous
[03:10:53] <jmkasunich> what are you tapping? plastic? aluminum? brass? steel? hardened tool steel? ;-)
[03:11:06] <fenn> yes, plastic
[03:11:11] <jmkasunich> easy
[03:11:23] <cradek> oh, most of my impressed just went away :-)
[03:11:31] <jmkasunich> try tapping 5/8-5 in bronze with a homemade tap!
[03:12:10] <jmkasunich> (it actually works, but I worked up a sweat and got cramps in my hands from turning it with a large wrench)
[03:12:22] <fenn> how long was the taper?
[03:12:33] <jmkasunich> about 6" maybe
[03:12:43] <CIA-4> 03cradek 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/iotask/ioControl.cc: this was printing even with DEBUG=0
[03:13:01] <fenn> i figured a more plug-shaped tap would be appropriate for plastic
[03:13:23] <jmkasunich> http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/Worm05.jpg
[03:13:27] <jmkasunich> tap is on top
[03:13:37] <jmkasunich> then worm gear gashing and hobbing cutters
[03:14:23] <cradek> why do I see two tapers in the tap?
[03:14:31] <jmkasunich> the first one is roughing
[03:14:52] <jmkasunich> the tooth form there was cut down to have sharp crests like a regular (not-acme) thread
[03:15:01] <cradek> I see
[03:15:07] <jmkasunich> the flat crests of an acme = large chip load
[03:15:24] <jmkasunich> http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/Worm03.jpg
[03:15:28] <jmkasunich> nut made with the tap
[03:15:44] <fenn> thats pretty sexy
[03:15:45] <jmkasunich> I also threaded the worm gear to fit on the screw, then pinned it
[03:16:07] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[03:16:10] <jmkasunich> that tap did about 5-6 holes before I had to sharpen it
[03:16:35] <jmkasunich> its done about 14-16 total
[03:16:36] <cradek> that worm is very cool
[03:16:45] <fenn> how did you gash the worm without a dividing head? :)
[03:16:49] <fenn> er worm wheel
[03:17:00] <jmkasunich> I have a dividing head
[03:17:09] <jmkasunich> see pic 7
[03:17:11] <jmkasunich> and 8
[03:17:31] <fenn> uh.. what is this thing for then?
[03:17:49] <jmkasunich> piece of lab equipment
[03:18:01] <jmkasunich> made 7-8 of them over the past 3-4 years
[03:18:13] <jmkasunich> sell em for about $1500 each
[03:18:27] <fenn> sounds cheap for lab equipment
[03:18:37] <fenn> what is it?
[03:18:50] <jmkasunich> "Crack Isolation Membrane Test Jig"
[03:18:59] <fenn> oh.
[03:19:01] <jmkasunich> per some ANSI standard that I don't remember the number
[03:19:29] <SWPadnos> A118.12?
[03:19:41] <jmkasunich> no idea
[03:19:48] <jmkasunich> where did you get that number from? google?
[03:19:54] <SWPadnos> of course ;)
[03:20:01] <SWPadnos> there's also a 118.10
[03:20:38] <SWPadnos> it looks like 188 is crack isolation stuff
[03:20:41] <SWPadnos> oops 118
[03:20:58] <SWPadnos> then there's A137 for ceramic tile
[03:21:10] <SWPadnos> which is what this is for, IIRC
[03:21:17] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:21:23] <jmkasunich> gotta url for the test standard?
[03:21:34] <SWPadnos> hah. those are expensive :)
[03:21:48] <jmkasunich> I didn't think it was on the web
[03:21:55] <jmkasunich> but you seemed to have found something
[03:22:18] <SWPadnos> yep. manufacturers saying their stuff is compliant with ANSI blah blah
[03:22:36] <jmkasunich> www.noblecompany.com/files/tca21902.pdf
[03:22:48] <jmkasunich> thats one of my customers
[03:23:11] <SWPadnos> cool
[03:24:10] <jmkasunich> basically the jig is 2 square plates of 3/4" aluminum plate, with a screw that lets you force them apart to simulate a cracked floor moving from frost or whatever
[03:24:33] <jmkasunich> you epoxy cement slabs on top to be the "floor", then the membrane and tiles on top of that
[03:24:41] <jmkasunich> crank it and see if the tiles crack
[03:26:20] <jmkasunich> http://www.tileusa.com/tstprice.html
[03:26:26] <jmkasunich> I didn't charge enough!
[03:26:40] <jmkasunich> they charge $1450 to conduct one round of tests for a customer
[03:27:48] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-2.18 (2.2.18-rtl3.0) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[03:27:58] <cradek> wonder what genius at sherline put 8" leads on the motors for an 18" long lathe
[03:28:49] <jmkasunich> I seem to remember that the sherline drive box has wires and inline connectors instead of chassis mount connectors
[03:29:08] <jmkasunich> (but I could be full of shit, I last saw it a year ago)
[03:29:46] <cradek> that would sure explain it
[03:30:55] <jmkasunich> http://www.sherline.com/images/CNCasby1.jpg
[03:31:08] <jmkasunich> you can see the 4 cables coming out the back of the PC
[03:31:23] <jmkasunich> (they build their drives right into the PC case now)
[03:31:30] <cradek> bizarre
[03:31:36] <cradek> I guess that saves them an expensive box
[03:31:37] <jmkasunich> not really
[03:31:49] <jmkasunich> and saves their users messing with more connections
[03:31:51] <cradek> is the power supply in there too?
[03:31:58] <jmkasunich> looks like it
[03:32:11] <cradek> also keeps the user from upgrading the computer (not being sarcastic, that's an important thing)
[03:32:14] <jmkasunich> under the guy's left pinky, looks like an open frame switcher
[03:32:14] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[03:32:38] <jmkasunich> they're selling a turnkey system, upgradeing the computer is a non-issue for their target market
[03:33:26] <cradek> darnit, I can't find the old style of keyboard extension
[03:33:36] <jmkasunich> oh, they also have external boxes
[03:33:46] <jmkasunich> http://www.sherline.com/images/8760inside1.jpg
[03:34:04] <jmkasunich> http://www.sherline.com/images/8760pic1.JPG
[03:34:44] <cradek> looks pretty professional
[03:35:09] <cradek> mine's an old UPS case, heh
[03:35:42] <jmkasunich> I've been collecting various cases, external SCSI drive boxes, etc
[03:35:49] <jmkasunich> dunno what I'm gonna actually use
[03:36:09] <jmkasunich> ultimately I want to put a spindle drive in the box too
[03:36:18] <jmkasunich> and maybe just build the PC into it as well
[03:36:18] <cradek> are you going to build your own drivers?
[03:36:25] <jmkasunich> no, using geckos
[03:36:57] <jmkasunich> at one time I wanted to make my own drives
[03:37:07] <cradek> you outgrew that?
[03:37:12] <jmkasunich> then I realized how much time it would waste, and how little money it would save
[03:37:18] <cradek> right
[03:37:27] <cradek> unless you want something inexpensive like I did
[03:37:48] <jmkasunich> my machine takes NEMA 34 motors, I need more oomph
[03:38:13] <jmkasunich> I have a three axis xylotex board here that I used for experimenting, but its too small for 34's
[03:38:36] <cradek> seems they're too small for much of anything at only 24v
[03:38:57] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[03:38:59] <jmkasunich> they run nema23's ok, as long as you don't need blazing speed
[03:39:10] <cradek> and the price is right
[03:39:11] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-Live rc46 (2.4.25-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[03:39:27] <cradek> but they're unipolar aren't they?
[03:39:36] <jmkasunich> xylotex? no
[03:39:43] <jmkasunich> bipolar chopper microstepping
[03:39:47] <jmkasunich> they use allegro chips
[03:39:49] <cradek> ah
[03:40:00] <cradek> then they're not at all joke like I thought
[03:40:17] <jmkasunich> quite nice really, 2.5A, 24-30V
[03:42:32] <jmkasunich> http://www.sherline.com/8760pg.htm
[03:42:43] <jmkasunich> has pinout and color coding for sherline motor connectors and leads
[03:42:48] <jmkasunich> dunno it that will help
[03:42:56] <cradek> think I have that part figured out
[03:43:13] <cradek> I'm trying to figure out a nondestructive way to do the spindle and switch rewiring
[03:43:27] <cradek> maybe I'll get one of those db25 jumper boxes if radio shaft still has them
[03:43:40] <jmkasunich> 1 DB-25 male, one female, soldering iron and wire
[03:44:06] <cradek> yep, same idea
[03:44:18] <jmkasunich> couple of inch long standoffs to space them apart and keep em from flopping
[03:44:37] <jmkasunich> like the gender changers or null modem widgets you see for serial stuff
[03:44:47] <jmkasunich> (used to see anyway, serial is going the way of the dodo)
[03:45:36] <cradek> these zero-resettable handwheels are cool
[03:45:55] <cradek> it's pretty funny to see them on a cnc lathe next to my manual lathe that doesn't have them because I was too cheap
[03:46:14] <jmkasunich> switch em ;-)
[03:46:35] <jmkasunich> "Fred, I swear there weren't any handwheels on the lathe when it got here"
[03:46:50] <cradek> nah, I'd give him mine...
[03:46:53] <cradek> :-P
[03:49:26] <jmkasunich> well thats a bug
[03:49:28] <cradek> the encoder is "5-26V BIDI 10P CN"
[03:49:39] <cradek> what is?
[03:49:56] <jmkasunich> run the axis into the limit, get a hard limit error
[03:50:11] <jmkasunich> reset the estop, and it tries to move farther onto the switch (getting another error)
[03:50:22] <cradek> ouch
[03:50:57] <cradek> I bet that's the same as "I can't turn machine back on after a following error"
[03:52:28] <jmkasunich> its only moving about 0.0005 each time
[03:52:31] <jmkasunich> but thats enough
[03:53:50] <cradek> pretty sure I've seen it do worse
[03:54:36] <cradek> I looked for this once, but the code looked right, so I figured I didn't know what I was looking for.
[03:57:46] <jmkasunich> at the moment its re-enabled, the position command jumps about 0.001
[04:01:36] <jmkasunich> its like there was some residual "desire to move"
[04:01:52] <jmkasunich> I went into hal and turned off the limit switch
[04:01:57] <jmkasunich> the enabled the machine again
[04:02:13] <jmkasunich> and it moved 0.020 before stopping
[04:02:32] <jmkasunich> I wonder if I'm not resetting the velocity in the free mode planner
[04:05:13] <skunkworks> milled some test boards to see how my cutter worked. It didn't. I ended up making and engraver type cutter. I had some broken 1/8 carbide drills - I ground it to a point. then ground them in half and releaved it. was able to make .020 isolation cuts with it.
[04:06:26] <skunkworks> I found out I need to make the resister/cap/diode pads bigger.
[04:07:08] <cradek> skunkworks: sounds like a great start
[04:07:49] <skunkworks> other than that - so far so good. (I had it loose steps a couple of times. I had upped the accelleration a while back and that plus cold seems to make shuttles stall. Need to slow it down I guess
[04:08:26] <cradek> I decided a while ago that I'd rather run very conservatively than ever botch a job
[04:08:38] <skunkworks> that is what I am thinking :)
[04:08:38] <cradek> so I run my steppers slow enough that's pretty hard to stop an axis if you try
[04:08:56] <cradek> (when jogging)
[04:09:07] <cradek> and I never cut that fast
[04:10:31] <skunkworks> I would have to look at the file but I think the cutting is done at 10 ipm or there abouts
[04:10:55] <cradek> so does your cutter have one "tooth" or two?
[04:11:05] <skunkworks> 1 in effect
[04:11:24] <cradek> then 10ipm sounds pretty fast unless you have a super fast spindle
[04:11:43] <cradek> I cut about .0005/tooth
[04:11:43] <skunkworks> router - don't remember 25000 rpm
[04:11:51] <cradek> ah you're fine then
[04:12:34] <skunkworks> it makes a pretty good cut if I don't go too deep.
[04:13:07] <cradek> have a photo?
[04:13:10] <skunkworks> the relief was done freehand so I don't think it is that great - I could do better.
[04:13:16] <skunkworks> not yet - maybe tomorrow
[04:14:24] <skunkworks> how are you holding your boards down?
[04:14:48] <skunkworks> and have you ever done 2 sided?
[04:14:54] <cradek> carpet tape
[04:14:58] <cradek> sure, lots of times
[04:15:34] <skunkworks> carpet tape - cool. I was thinking about a vaccum table.
[04:15:53] <cradek> I bet that'd work great if you don't drill
[04:16:01] <skunkworks> but carpet tape seems easier
[04:16:14] <cradek> it's sometimes a bit hard to untape
[04:16:28] <skunkworks> the table top for the vaccum would be plywood
[04:16:48] <cradek> plywood won't be flat enough
[04:17:07] <skunkworks> this is maple die board. hard as hell.
[04:17:28] <cradek> can it hold .001?
[04:17:49] <cradek> I cut .004 deep and .001 makes a big difference in width
[04:17:57] <skunkworks> it would be milled flat - I would find out pretty quick
[04:18:06] <cradek> yep
[04:18:09] <cradek> can't hurt to try
[04:18:19] <cradek> I'd like to hear how it goes
[04:18:41] <skunkworks> that is the fun part - I thinks go "ok" I will make a video
[04:18:46] <skunkworks> things
[04:19:02] <cradek> cool
[04:21:11] <skunkworks> hell I don't even know if the copper clad from radio shaft is that flat :)
[04:21:31] <jmkasunich> sticking it down to a flat surface makes it flat
[04:21:56] <cradek> right
[04:22:09] <cradek> you have to tape every little bit you intend to cut, and press it down to the table
[04:22:13] <skunkworks> I was measuring some older single sidded board and it varied by a few thousands
[04:22:25] <skunkworks> which I had not even thought about.
[04:22:41] <cradek> the boards I use don't vary much, they always measure the same .059 whenever I check
[04:22:50] <skunkworks> nive
[04:22:52] <skunkworks> nice
[04:23:09] <cradek> but it sure doesn't matter for etching, which they're meant for
[04:23:13] <cradek> so it's a bit surprising they're so good
[04:23:45] <skunkworks> jees - got sucked into apallo 13 again
[04:26:22] <skunkworks> Apollo
[04:36:22] <skunkworks> I sharpened the carbide like this http://www.antaresinc.net/FactCutterGeometry.html
[04:36:43] <skunkworks> conical
[04:39:17] <skunkworks> and seen as how I have a few broken cabide drills - I can make a few more :p
[04:39:55] <cradek> yep...
[04:40:06] <fenn> i always wondered how they made the braille dots
[04:40:10] <cradek> I have saved up my broken pcb drills too
[04:40:12] <jmkasunich> well, I found _a_ bug
[04:40:16] <jmkasunich> but not _the_ bug
[04:40:36] <jmkasunich> it no longer moves when I re-enable ti
[04:40:37] <jmkasunich> it
[04:40:42] <cradek> yay
[04:40:44] <jmkasunich> but I still get a fault
[04:40:55] <skunkworks> cradek: I installed mysql on a windows 2000 server today. looks promising
[04:41:06] <jmkasunich> the move was because going into the "motion disabled" state didn't clear the velocity command
[04:41:08] <cradek> override limits was working for me earlier - it allowed one jog in the right direction
[04:41:43] <jmkasunich> I didn't even try override limits, I assume it works
[04:41:47] <jmkasunich> but need to try it
[04:41:47] <cradek> skunkworks: while I've installed mysql a few times, I don't claim to know anything about it
[04:43:02] <skunkworks> neither do I - but I got it go comuicate to the odbc drivers on a xp machine.
[04:43:33] <skunkworks> so far so good. even made a simple table and coppied a million records to it :)
[04:43:35] <jmkasunich> hmm, the limit switch code doesn't care what direction you are moving (if at all)
[04:44:06] <jmkasunich> I thought it would only trip on positive limit if moving in the positive direction, and on negative limit if moving in the negative direction
[04:44:27] <cradek> that's good, that means I'll be able to jog off limits even if they're all hooked together
[04:44:46] <jmkasunich> no, thats not what it means
[04:44:58] <cradek> oh
[04:45:03] <jmkasunich> it means that even if they're not hooked to gether, you'll need to use the override
[04:45:19] <jmkasunich> (if they are hooked together, you always need override)
[04:45:26] <cradek> I see what you mean
[04:45:36] <cradek> I did have to use override tonight, I thought that was how it was supposed to work
[04:45:37] <jmkasunich> but if they're not, and they are treated individually, you could jog off without override
[04:45:54] <cradek> I agree you could, but I think emc doesn't work that way
[04:46:04] <jmkasunich> it doesn't right now
[04:46:13] <cradek> I wonder if that's a bug
[04:46:31] <jmkasunich> there are a couple things I don't like about the limit handling
[04:48:11] <jmkasunich> well, one thing at a time
[04:48:29] <jmkasunich> I think this "start moving when you re-enable" is a bug that should be fixed in the release
[04:48:33] <jmkasunich> (its a one line change)
[04:48:38] <cradek> I agree
[04:49:02] <jmkasunich> any changes to the limit logic should not be in the release, too complex to be confident in without lots of thought and testing
[04:49:10] <cradek> I agree
[04:49:21] <cradek> that is not a bugfix
[04:49:26] <jmkasunich> so I'm gonna commit the first change to head and branch now
[04:49:52] <jmkasunich> well it fixes a "can't jog off a limit" bug
[04:50:22] <cradek> you can jog off a limit, you just use override
[04:50:37] <cradek> so it's not a bug, I think that is even as designed
[04:50:53] <jmkasunich> well, I guess its debatable
[04:51:03] <jmkasunich> which makes it a bug to fix for the _next_ release
[04:51:31] <cradek> ok no need to debate it if you're not putting it in the release branch
[04:51:57] <jmkasunich> only thing going to the release branch is resetting vel to zero on disable
[04:52:09] <cradek> great, that'll be nice to have fixed
[04:52:49] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/control.c: reset joint velocity to zero when motion is disabled
[04:57:03] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich 07v2_0_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/control.c: reset joint velocity to zero when motion is disabled
[04:58:25] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[04:59:41] <jmkasunich> hmm
[04:59:56] <jmkasunich> the limit handling definitely needs work
[05:00:14] <jmkasunich> theres a whole chunk of code dedicated to latching limits, which:
[05:00:27] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 5.10 (2.6.12-magma) * 10v2_0_branch/: build PASSED
[05:00:27] <jmkasunich> 1) isn't enabled right now
[05:00:34] <jmkasunich> 2) probalby won't work if enabled
[05:00:59] <cradek> what does latching limits mean?
[05:01:14] <jmkasunich> /* Some machines can coast past the limit switches - this makes EMC
[05:01:14] <jmkasunich> think the machine is no longer on the limit. To avoid this
[05:01:14] <jmkasunich> problem, we latch the position when the limit first trips, and we
[05:01:14] <jmkasunich> won't release the limit unless the current position is inside the
[05:01:14] <jmkasunich> latched position. We use motor position because joint position
[05:01:15] <jmkasunich> makes step changes during homing */
[05:01:17] <jmkasunich> /* latching of limit switches is optional - it should not be used if
[05:01:19] <jmkasunich> pos_limit and neg_limit are tied together */
[05:01:46] <cradek> oh
[05:02:08] <cradek> yuck
[05:02:23] <jmkasunich> the algorithm described there won't work if we start letting the encoder reset on an index pulse as part of homing
[05:02:36] <jmkasunich> right now there's no way to enable it anyway
[05:02:50] <cradek> the whole thing sounds bogus to me
[05:02:53] <jmkasunich> latch_limits was gonna be an ini file param, never got around to that
[05:03:00] <cradek> if your machine does this, you should fix your switches
[05:03:16] <jmkasunich> easy for you to say
[05:03:33] <cradek> sure, I can say stuff like that, because I don't know squat about it
[05:03:45] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-2.18 (2.2.18-rtl3.0) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[05:03:55] <jmkasunich> on some machines (maybe the lathe you have right there) the switches are activated by a small cam
[05:04:19] <jmkasunich> of the table coasts when you tell it to stop, its possible to go right past the switch
[05:04:41] <jmkasunich> the disaster case is if that results in the motor starting back up and continuing to drive the table into a hard stop or crash
[05:05:12] <jmkasunich> the less disasterous case is if the machine stops, but emc thinks you are inside limits, and allows you to jog into a hard stop or crash
[05:05:30] <jmkasunich> I agree that the "right" answer is longer cams
[05:05:30] <cradek> the machine stays off, doesn't it? I mean until the user does something?
[05:05:54] <jmkasunich> it should
[05:05:55] <cradek> I could simulate it by tapping a switch, I'll try it tomorrow
[05:06:23] <jmkasunich> fault handling in general sucks
[05:06:30] <cradek> it seems like it would be hard to jog back inside the limits once this happens, but other than that it's not a bad bug is it?
[05:06:53] <jmkasunich> when we get a fault (ferror or limit), there is a dialog that pops up, with an OK button on it
[05:07:18] <jmkasunich> a person would assume that clicking the OK is a "clear faults" kind of thing, neccessary to restart
[05:07:21] <jmkasunich> but it isn't
[05:07:45] <jmkasunich> clearing the dialog has no effect whatsoever on the machine
[05:07:48] <cradek> so a user could not bother to look at the machine and see that it's outside limits
[05:08:05] <jmkasunich> well what would normally happen is:
[05:08:23] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[05:08:30] <jmkasunich> 1) hit switch - machine begins stoppingnumbers on display go red, dialog pops up,
[05:08:34] <jmkasunich> oops
[05:08:41] <jmkasunich> 1) hit switch - machine begins stopping
[05:08:54] <jmkasunich> I didn't to that!
[05:08:58] <jmkasunich> do
[05:09:08] <cradek> it sez you did
[05:09:29] <jmkasunich> 2) numbers on display go red, dialog pops up, machine switches from "on" to "estop-reset"
[05:09:40] <jmkasunich> 3) machine coasts past limit switch
[05:09:47] <jmkasunich> 4) numbers go green again
[05:09:59] <jmkasunich> the dialog is still there, and the machine is still off
[05:10:08] <jmkasunich> you hit f2 to turn it back on
[05:10:48] <jmkasunich> normally the red numbers would tell you that you are outside limits, and you'd hit override limits, then jog back until they go green
[05:11:28] <jmkasunich> in this case, the numbers are already green, but the dialog says you were out of limit
[05:11:44] <cradek> so you have to jog back into your switch, when it'll stop again
[05:11:52] <cradek> that does suck
[05:11:59] <jmkasunich> if you realise you overshot the switch, you can jog back
[05:12:11] <jmkasunich> well, you could hit override limits before you start to jog back
[05:12:38] <jmkasunich> hey, this is just the border of the suckage
[05:12:48] <cradek> if I had that happen, I'd sure say "I need to fix those switches"
[05:12:55] <jmkasunich> on the mazak, because its so fast, we hardwired the limit switches to the estop
[05:13:11] <cradek> to get braking?
[05:13:13] <jmkasunich> so once you hit limits, you have to jumper the switches with a wire to jog back
[05:13:31] <cradek> suckage!!
[05:13:33] <jmkasunich> (and you can't just crank it back)
[05:13:42] <jmkasunich> well, its a safety thing
[05:13:50] <cradek> yeah
[05:13:59] <jmkasunich> suppose a dac fails with +10V, or an encoder dies
[05:14:16] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-2.18 (2.2.18-rtl3.0) * 10v2_0_branch/: build PASSED
[05:14:16] <jmkasunich> the thing is gonna run away, and theres nothing emc can do to stop it
[05:14:43] <jmkasunich> so when it hits the limit switches, we kill the power and hope it coasts to a stop before hitting a hard stop and busting something
[05:14:59] <cradek> doesn't estop brake the motors (short them)?
[05:15:05] <jmkasunich> in normal operation you should never hit the switches
[05:15:09] <cradek> sure
[05:15:33] <jmkasunich> that is machine dependent, the mazak puts a resistor across the DC supply, but not on the motors themselves
[05:16:03] <jmkasunich> the software limits are set inside the hard limits, so if you just lean on the jog button, it will hit a soft limit before the switches shut it down
[05:16:12] <jmkasunich> jogging off a soft limit is easy
[05:16:15] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[05:16:18] <cradek> yeah I even did that on the lathe
[05:16:35] <cradek> and my mill uses soft limits without switches
[05:17:11] <jmkasunich> which is far from foolproof, since the soft limits are relative to machine coords, and unless you have a home switch, where are machine coords?
[05:17:38] <cradek> I home it by eyeball
[05:17:53] <cradek> it has a very easy to see machine origin
[05:18:00] <jmkasunich> lots of folks get out the edge finder, touch off on their part, and hit "home" which is configured to set the current position to zero
[05:18:10] <jmkasunich> (IOW, they use home instead of part offsets)
[05:18:24] <cradek> yeah I used to do that, but this is better
[05:18:28] <jmkasunich> agreed
[05:18:42] <jmkasunich> but lots of users don't do that, and therefore don't have usable soft limits
[05:18:49] <cradek> I understand
[05:19:07] <jmkasunich> (of course, they're also using machines that just hum if you run them into the hard stops, not crash
[05:19:17] <cradek> for instance I home Z with the tool near the table, and my negative limit is 0
[05:19:31] <cradek> that way if my program is wrong, it aborts instead of drilling the table
[05:19:42] <jmkasunich> good plan ;-)
[05:19:43] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-Live rc46 (2.4.25-adeos) * 10emc2head/: build PASSED
[05:20:10] <cradek> doing that was only obvious in hindsight (at least to me)
[05:20:13] <jmkasunich> do you re-home after a toolchange (if the new tool is a different length)
[05:20:31] <cradek> all the tools I use for a job are in the holders at the same length
[05:20:45] <jmkasunich> ok, thats an exception to the norm
[05:21:01] <cradek> I'd have to use tool length offste otherwise, and I don't want to figure that out
[05:21:39] <jmkasunich> messing with the mazak is a good way to get to thinking about some of these things
[05:22:03] <jmkasunich> the first time you see that table moving at 300ipm, you say "whoa!"
[05:22:09] <cradek> does it have a full servo controlled spindle?
[05:22:14] <jmkasunich> no
[05:22:27] <jmkasunich> it has a DC drive, but its basically a variable speed drive only
[05:22:32] <cradek> what's the accel at that speed?
[05:23:14] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-TNG (2.4.18-rtai) * 10v2_0_branch/: build PASSED
[05:23:16] <jmkasunich> we have it set to 5ips (300ipm) and 20 ips^2
[05:23:30] <jmkasunich> zero to 300ipm in a quarter second
[05:23:43] <cradek> I bet that's impressive
[05:24:04] <jmkasunich> IIRC we actually ran it at 350 or 400 ipm and 40 accel, but dropped back to minimize abuse to the mechanics
[05:24:21] <jmkasunich> it is impressive
[05:24:42] <jmkasunich> the table probably weighs close to 1000 lbs, and it can do a 10" rapid in 2 second or so
[05:25:42] <cradek> I think that means a full accel/decel takes 2.5"
[05:26:08] <jmkasunich> d=1/2at^2
[05:26:14] <jmkasunich> t = 0.25 seconds
[05:26:18] <cradek> 1.25?
[05:26:29] <jmkasunich> a = 20
[05:26:37] <jmkasunich> 1/2 * 1/16 * 20
[05:26:55] <jmkasunich> = 20/32 = 5/8"
[05:27:09] <cradek> right 1.25
[05:27:24] <jmkasunich> 5/8 = 0.625
[05:27:46] <cradek> sorry I meant accel and then decel again to stop
[05:27:53] <jmkasunich> oh
[05:28:06] <jmkasunich> duh, you said accel/decel
[05:28:12] <jmkasunich> I read it as "accel or decel"
[05:28:22] <cradek> I was thinking about what its shortest full speed segments are with the current TP
[05:28:34] <jmkasunich> not real short
[05:28:38] <cradek> yep
[05:28:50] <jmkasunich> true lookahead is something we should try to figure out
[05:28:56] <jmkasunich> dunno how hard its gonna be tho
[05:29:05] <cradek> I keep meaning to look into matt's new TP
[05:29:16] <cradek> he says it does that
[05:29:19] <jmkasunich> that would be a good thing to talk about at fest
[05:29:36] <jmkasunich> those kind of discussions are a lot more effective face to face, with pencil, paper, etc
[05:29:38] <cradek> unfortunately he won't be there, but maybe we can hack it into emc2
[05:29:49] <cradek> see what following errors we get :-)
[05:30:04] <jmkasunich> so how much we can shake the machine
[05:30:31] <jmkasunich> early during PID tuning I had a 5Hz or so oscillation get going
[05:30:51] <cradek> who gets to run estop during early tuning?
[05:31:01] <jmkasunich> we had a couple
[05:31:12] <jmkasunich> a lot of what I was doing was late at night, I was the only one there
[05:31:27] <jmkasunich> but we had an extra estop button on the bench next to the computer
[05:31:32] <cradek> speaking of late at night...
[05:31:43] <jmkasunich> yeah, its past both our bedtimes
[05:31:49] <cradek> I'm anxious to work on the lathe more tomorrow
[05:31:55] <cradek> tonight was very encouraging
[05:32:34] <cradek> goodnight
[05:32:39] <jmkasunich> night
[05:37:50] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-4.20 (2.6.10-adeos) * 10v2_0_branch/: build PASSED
[05:43:45] <CIA-4> 03compile-farm 07BDI-Live rc46 (2.4.25-adeos) * 10v2_0_branch/: build PASSED
[09:11:55] <LerneaenHydra> is there any easy way to start a program from a certain program block?
[09:13:18] <chinamill> LH: Hello; block or row?
[09:14:11] <LerneaenHydra> row wouold be best as I haven't written block numbers
[09:15:21] <chinamill> If you are using axis; I think is is: click on the row and then the run button
[09:16:00] <LerneaenHydra> that started it from the start
[09:19:13] <chinamill> hmmm, at least I think it use to be like that... then the bad solution run your editor
[09:20:16] <LerneaenHydra> hmm, too bad :(.. any way to jump to a certain block?
[09:21:08] <chinamill> LH: det verkar som vi får vänta på att usa ska vakna
[09:22:00] <LerneaenHydra> chinamill: Jo, det kan nog stämma
[10:51:09] <giacus> morning
[10:58:44] <chinamill> morning
[11:01:04] <ValarQ> g'day
[13:10:32] <LerneaenHydra> morning
[13:10:45] <LerneaenHydra> * LerneaenHydra looks at timestamps
[13:10:56] <LerneaenHydra> * LerneaenHydra notices the extreme activity
[13:13:56] <Jymmm> This being the old farts channel =)
[13:15:58] <giacus> hello LerneaenHydra / Jymmm
[13:16:13] <Jymmm> Mornin giacus
[13:16:29] <LerneaenHydra> afternoon giacus
[13:16:50] <giacus> 15:20 here :P
[13:17:43] <Jymmm> [06:17:30] <giacus> 15:20 here :P
[13:18:13] <giacus> wow, wake up soon Jymmm
[13:18:42] <Jymmm> sicne 0500
[13:19:25] <Jymmm> http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=41
[13:19:28] <giacus> well, air of summer here around
[13:21:36] <giacus> nice, but I hate proprietary solutions :/
[13:21:48] <Jymmm> ?
[13:21:54] <giacus> he chip
[13:21:56] <giacus> the
[13:22:01] <Jymmm> It's a BASIC compiler for Atmel uC
[13:22:13] <giacus> I seen
[13:22:31] <Jymmm> AVR not proprietary
[13:23:00] <Jymmm> not like basic stamp anyway
[13:23:38] <giacus> it is not designed to run under my favorite O.S.
[13:23:44] <giacus> that's all
[13:24:29] <Jymmm> * Jymmm sighs *
[13:24:37] <giacus> hehe
[13:24:39] <giacus> :)
[13:25:28] <giacus> I was watching an interesting documentary about 1st mondial war..
[13:25:32] <giacus> 1915-18
[13:25:41] <giacus> :(
[13:25:52] <giacus> its seems so far
[13:26:09] <giacus> lot of crazy peoples
[13:26:26] <giacus> I hated the story in the school
[13:26:40] <giacus> but i'm discovering it right now
[13:26:46] <giacus> :P
[13:27:30] <giacus> I just eard my mother and my father talking abot 1945 war
[13:28:05] <giacus> that was very sad, very very sad
[13:28:16] <Jymmm> as is all wars
[13:28:41] <giacus> also seen something about 'olocausto'
[13:29:33] <giacus> thats incredible cruel
[13:31:43] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymm
[13:32:48] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: click the line, pick "Run from line" on the menu, then hit run
[13:33:00] <cradek> or "Set next line" or whatever it is
[13:33:06] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: ah, thank you
[13:34:23] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: I seem to have strange behaviour, it seems that manual jog goes faster then g0
[13:34:39] <LerneaenHydra> not much but definetly hearable and visible on an osciliscope
[13:34:52] <LerneaenHydra> could it be that man jog uses the value in stepgen maxvel?
[13:36:17] <cradek> all coordinated motion (g0) goes 5% slower than manual jog
[13:36:56] <LerneaenHydra> why so?
[13:37:25] <cradek> this was my way of dealing with the stepgen problem, to always go a little under the requested maxvel, but unless jmk does the same thing for jogging, we still need the STEPGEN_MAXVEL hack
[13:37:47] <cradek> like I said before, there's some disagreement over how it should be handled
[13:38:35] <LerneaenHydra> ah, so when doing a manual jog there isn't a problem with step piling up in front as there can be with coordinated motion?
[13:39:36] <cradek> no, the problem is the same when jogging
[13:39:48] <LerneaenHydra> so manual jog uses the value written in stepgen maxvel and stepgen max accel, whereas coordinated stuff goes through maxvel and maxaccel (which should be 5% or so smaller than stepgenmaxvel/accel)?
[13:39:56] <cradek> currently if you set maxvel=stepgen_maxvel you will get following errors when jogging but not with any coordinated motion (g0/g1/g2)
[13:40:23] <cradek> not exactly
[13:40:38] <cradek> jogging uses maxvel, coordinated uses .95*maxvel
[13:41:50] <LerneaenHydra> and that 0.95 is needed for some math algorithm?
[13:41:57] <LerneaenHydra> so that steps don't pile up?
[13:42:45] <cradek> ok let me explain the base problem
[13:44:05] <cradek> because of floating point precision issues, stepgen has to allow velocities a little higher than motion will give it
[13:44:13] <cradek> we call this "headroom"
[13:44:45] <cradek> and previously motion would request up to maxvel, so the user had to specify stepgen's maxvel a little higher, like 1.05*maxvel
[13:45:11] <cradek> so maxvel is the desired value, stepgen_maxvel is a tweaked value because of the precision issue
[13:45:55] <cradek> well I don't like this, so I wrote into the TP a 95% hack so the user could put the desired maxvel in the ini and not have to mess with headroom
[13:46:20] <cradek> jmk disagrees and thinks the user should specify the headroom (even though he doesn't like it)
[13:46:41] <cradek> so we have a bit of a mess currently due to the combination of the two approaches
[13:46:57] <LerneaenHydra> 5% souds like a lot though for rounding errors. so actually now there is double compensation, whcih is not too good
[13:47:05] <cradek> I had hoped we could remove the headroom specification because I don't think the user should have to deal with it
[13:47:13] <LerneaenHydra> so to get as good a speed as possible they should be set to the same values?
[13:47:37] <cradek> no, if you set them to the same value currently, you'll get errors jogging.
[13:48:07] <LerneaenHydra> doesn't your 0.95 take care of that (oh, ok, a jog would cause errors, but not a coordinated move)
[13:48:14] <cradek> right
[13:49:03] <LerneaenHydra> why is 5% needed, shouldn't it be in the <0.1% region?
[13:49:28] <cradek> it's not clear to me how much is needed, and it probably differs with different configs
[13:49:38] <cradek> all of hal uses floats, not doubles
[13:49:51] <LerneaenHydra> steps/(mm/inch) would affect this?
[13:49:54] <cradek> floats don't have a lot of precision especially when the absolute value is big
[13:50:02] <cradek> yes I think so
[13:50:12] <LerneaenHydra> a float is 8 sig figures?
[13:50:25] <cradek> we should talk about this when jmk is here
[13:50:43] <cradek> it's not that simple; a float has more precision near 0 and less and less as you get further from 0
[13:51:00] <LerneaenHydra> oh..
[13:54:02] <cradek> it shows up especially if you plot a couple derivatives (vel and accel) near the origin and then far from it
[13:54:15] <cradek> morning ray
[13:55:21] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: another thing that is strange, when running for example spiral.ngc i get jerks in the speed when it goes from one line to the other
[13:55:31] <LerneaenHydra> 10% or so, after which the speed stabilises
[13:55:44] <LerneaenHydra> both audible and visible on an osciliscope
[13:55:58] <cradek> yep I know, I thought we talked about that before
[13:56:10] <LerneaenHydra> I am running steptype 2 if that makes any difference
[13:56:10] <cradek> you can reduce the effect, but not eliminate it, by reducing your traj period
[13:56:17] <cradek> nope it doesn't
[13:58:25] <LerneaenHydra> so that effect is well known?
[13:59:04] <cradek> yeah, it's a result of the trajectory planner algorithm
[13:59:19] <LerneaenHydra> what would a suitable value be (currently 10000000)
[13:59:42] <LerneaenHydra> that looks like 10 seconds :|
[13:59:50] <LerneaenHydra> which sounds strange
[13:59:52] <cradek> maybe try 1/2 1/4 1/5 that
[14:00:01] <cradek> no those values are nanoseconds
[14:00:36] <LerneaenHydra> ah, so 10 mS
[14:00:41] <LerneaenHydra> *ms
[14:00:45] <LerneaenHydra> not radiation ;)
[14:01:15] <LerneaenHydra> what happens if the value is too low?
[14:01:56] <cradek> the tp cycle will overrun and miss the next realtime deadline
[14:02:07] <LerneaenHydra> will I get an error message?
[14:02:14] <LerneaenHydra> or will I see that it skips steps?
[14:02:18] <cradek> unfortunately no
[14:02:30] <cradek> I think hal can tell you how long tp typically takes to run
[14:02:44] <rayh> Hi cradek
[14:02:47] <LerneaenHydra> how do I do that?
[14:02:47] <cradek> hi ray
[14:03:33] <cradek> I'm not at the right machine to look
[14:03:41] <cradek> maybe ray knows
[14:04:26] <rayh> No I don't. I'm pretty dumb this morning. To much fun last night.
[14:07:30] <cradek> hmm I think it's in `halcmd show thread' but the values are always 0
[14:07:39] <cradek> they are only nonzero for servo-thread
[14:08:08] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: try 2ms, someone else reported that helped a lot
[14:08:15] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[14:08:19] <LerneaenHydra> I'll try that
[14:08:28] <rayh> switching halscope between the thread should give an indication.
[14:08:51] <LerneaenHydra> would it be good to test 1.5ms and if that works then raise it to 2 so that I know it won't mess up sometime while doing real work?
[14:09:13] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: let's ask jmk later why these time values are 0
[14:09:24] <cradek> I bet it takes nowhere near 2ms to run, but it would be nice to be sure
[14:09:26] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: yes that sounds like a good idea
[14:09:37] <rayh> the thread connection widget in halscope gives actual time
[14:10:04] <cradek> rayh: that's the period: we're looking for another thing, which is how long it takes to run the code per period
[14:10:26] <cradek> you can see it for servo-thread in `halcmd show thread' (time, max-time)
[14:10:37] <cradek> but for traj and base threads, it's 0
[14:10:55] <cradek> Period FP Name (Time, Max-Time)
[14:10:55] <cradek> 10006914 YES traj-thread ( 0, 0 )
[14:10:55] <cradek> 1005720 YES servo-thread ( 24697, 60809 )
[14:11:10] <rayh> Oh. Okay. Sorry.
[14:11:13] <cradek> np
[14:11:19] <cradek> I think Time is for the last period
[14:11:25] <cradek> Max-Time is the longest so far
[14:11:35] <LerneaenHydra> hmm, EMC dies when trying to start with tp at 1.5ms
[14:12:21] <cradek> check your edit again?
[14:12:21] <LerneaenHydra> it sasy (in the terminal) insmod: error inserting '<magma>/modules/emc2/motmod.ko':-1 op not permitted
[14:12:27] <LerneaenHydra> it works when set to 10ms
[14:12:32] <cradek> look in dmesg
[14:12:43] <LerneaenHydra> dmesg?
[14:12:51] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok
[14:12:53] <cradek> run the command dmesg and you'll see a better error
[14:13:35] <LerneaenHydra> dmesg as it is gives far too much text
[14:13:50] <LerneaenHydra> it overflows and I can't see what it wrote in the beginning
[14:13:54] <cradek> yep you have to dig around to find what you want
[14:14:09] <cradek> you have to run dmesg right after your error
[14:14:16] <LerneaenHydra> and dmesg -c first?
[14:14:22] <cradek> yes sudo dmesg -c will help
[14:16:21] <LerneaenHydra> the log is very big, what was that store-text-snippet site called again?
[14:16:30] <cradek> pastebin.com
[14:17:22] <LerneaenHydra> patebin.com/675136
[14:18:01] <LerneaenHydra> it doesn't like the value 1.5ms
[14:18:09] <cradek> [18541.866405] MOTION: bad traj period 1500000 nsec
[14:18:33] <cradek> huh
[14:18:38] <LerneaenHydra> any idea why it doesn't like that?
[14:18:39] <cradek> probably would have to look at the source to see why
[14:18:52] <LerneaenHydra> maybe only wants 1 non-zero value
[14:18:52] <cradek> probably because it's not a multiple of base period
[14:18:56] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok
[14:19:06] <LerneaenHydra> my base period is at 50 IIRC
[14:20:03] <cradek> try a multiple of that
[14:20:11] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[14:20:24] <LerneaenHydra> first I'll lower base to 20 as that's what it should be
[14:20:46] <LerneaenHydra> so TP of 2?
[14:20:55] <cradek> sure try that
[14:21:51] <LerneaenHydra> strange
[14:21:57] <LerneaenHydra> same problem
[14:22:13] <LerneaenHydra> or wait, wrong number of zeros
[14:22:18] <LerneaenHydra> I set it to 0.2ms
[14:22:22] <LerneaenHydra> which should still work
[14:22:52] <LerneaenHydra> when set to 2ms it works though
[14:22:58] <cradek> oh good
[14:22:58] <LerneaenHydra> or rather, it loads axis
[14:23:07] <LerneaenHydra> let's test output now..
[14:23:56] <cradek> hope it helps after all that
[14:24:05] <LerneaenHydra> it less thats for sure
[14:24:10] <LerneaenHydra> it still hops around a bit though
[14:24:17] <LerneaenHydra> looks like something like 50µs
[14:24:38] <LerneaenHydra> audible but not very noticable
[14:25:12] <LerneaenHydra> barely noticable on the osciliscope when looking at the waveform, probably not more than 2-5% of the period
[14:26:01] <cradek> what we've done is give the TP a few more runs per acceleration/deceleration
[14:26:12] <cradek> so blending works better
[14:26:58] <LerneaenHydra> yes, that much I understood
[14:32:05] <cradek> it would be ideal if we could get the output we want from `halcmd show thread' - let's remember to ask jmk
[14:32:19] <cradek> I'm off for a bit
[14:32:22] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[14:34:08] <SWPadnos_> what output are you looking for?
[14:34:19] <LerneaenHydra> the time that TP takes
[14:34:22] <LerneaenHydra> to complete
[14:34:32] <SWPadnos_> it should be there
[14:34:45] <SWPadnos_> it's in clock cycles
[14:34:50] <cradek> it shows 0
[14:35:18] <SWPadnos_> hmmm - let me make sure that HEAD and RELEASE match
[14:35:27] <cradek> I'm running sim fwiw
[14:35:30] <SWPadnos_> ok
[14:35:40] <cradek> only servo thread shows nonzero
[14:36:04] <SWPadnos_> are all the *.tmax numbers 0 as well?
[14:36:07] <cradek> yes
[14:36:18] <cradek> 09:11:26 < cradek> Period FP Name (Time, Max-Time)
[14:36:18] <cradek> 09:11:26 < cradek> 10006914 YES traj-thread ( 0, 0 )
[14:36:18] <cradek> 09:11:26 < cradek> 1005720 YES servo-thread ( 24697, 60809 )
[14:36:26] <cradek> sorry for the bad paste
[14:37:06] <SWPadnos_> can you paste in the full output of show thread?
[14:37:20] <cradek> not right now, maybe LerneaenHydra can do his
[14:37:25] <SWPadnos_> ok
[14:40:02] <LerneaenHydra> uh, I'll ned some pointers as to how to get that output
[14:40:26] <cradek> while emc is running, run `halcmd show thread' at the shell
[14:41:00] <LerneaenHydra> oh, another random thing, I get very laggy response for things like feedrate adjust while running the program
[14:41:21] <LerneaenHydra> traj thread givces 0,0
[14:41:40] <LerneaenHydra> even when running a program
[14:42:49] <cradek> if your base period is too low, your system will have little time left to run other things like the gui
[14:42:54] <cradek> it might simply be that
[14:43:26] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: can you put the full output of halcmd show thread in pastebin for SWPadnos?
[14:43:34] <SWPadnos_> there used to be problems with timekeeping on various kernels
[14:43:35] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: ok
[14:43:48] <SWPadnos_> but it's all in cycles, using rdtsc now
[14:43:54] <cradek> SWPadnos_: that wouldn't explain why one thread has it and others don't, would it?
[14:44:05] <SWPadnos_> no, which is why I'm a bit confused
[14:44:09] <LerneaenHydra> I got slow response even with base period at 50
[14:44:48] <LerneaenHydra> pastebin.com/675170
[14:44:51] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: you're running the 4-9 testing right?
[14:45:14] <LerneaenHydra> I would think so, I used your apt-get script
[14:45:19] <LerneaenHydra> how do I check emc version?
[14:45:24] <cradek> hey you get base thread numbers, mine were zero (with sim)
[14:45:30] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: help/about
[14:45:34] <LerneaenHydra> base thread I get
[14:45:35] <LerneaenHydra> not tp
[14:45:58] <SWPadnos_> which ini did you use? (axis, mini, ...)
[14:46:02] <LerneaenHydra> axis
[14:46:11] <cradek> me? sim/tkemc
[14:46:30] <LerneaenHydra> emc2 v: 2006-04-09, AXIS 1.2.1
[14:46:43] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: good, that's the last one
[14:46:51] <SWPadnos_> well, the easy answer is that nothing is attached to the traj thread
[14:47:06] <SWPadnos_> there are no functions, so it takes no time
[14:47:22] <cradek> hmm, I see that
[14:47:31] <SWPadnos_> the motion controller is being run at the servo period
[14:47:35] <cradek> but changing its period makes a difference for the TP
[14:47:58] <cradek> I don't think LH imagined it...?
[14:48:05] <SWPadnos_> true, but the TP should be figuring out the elapsed time from the parameter passed to it by RTAPI
[14:48:35] <LerneaenHydra> ah, thats rather non-intuitive
[14:48:41] <cradek> I don't follow
[14:49:03] <SWPadnos_> hmmm
[14:49:17] <LerneaenHydra> neither do I (that last line)
[14:49:34] <LerneaenHydra> (not that it really matters, as I can't code... ;) )
[14:49:53] <SWPadnos_> all RT functions are passed a parameter that tells the period (or elapsed time since the thread was last run)
[14:50:34] <SWPadnos_> though the TP probably has some other stuff that's initialized at startup, based on the expected period
[14:50:50] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: what's your traj cycle time now? is it 2000000 or 1000000?
[14:50:52] <SWPadnos_> I'm betting that there's a bug in motion that attaches the TP to the wrong thread
[14:51:02] <LerneaenHydra> 2ms
[14:51:22] <cradek> SWPadnos_: maybe so
[14:51:43] <cradek> SWPadnos_: but LH is getting better results when he reduces his traj period
[14:51:48] <cradek> SWPadnos_: that's what I don't understand
[14:51:59] <SWPadnos_> ok, that is odd ;)
[14:52:22] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[14:52:30] <cradek> ok I really have to go, I'll look back later to see what you guys have figured out
[14:52:37] <SWPadnos> heh - see you
[14:53:17] <SWPadnos> ok - motion doesn't attach itself to anything, which is good
[15:01:27] <LerneaenHydra> what's wrong with this program, it only does one pass:
[15:01:28] <LerneaenHydra> o1 sub
[15:01:30] <LerneaenHydra> g0 x0
[15:01:31] <LerneaenHydra> g0 x1
[15:01:33] <LerneaenHydra> o1 endsub
[15:01:34] <LerneaenHydra> o1 call
[15:01:36] <LerneaenHydra> m2
[15:01:58] <LerneaenHydra> I followed the wiki but something is wrong with the program
[15:05:30] <SWPadnos> it doesn't execute the sub until the call, which is there only once
[15:05:55] <SWPadnos> if you add another "o1 call" line, it'll execute twice
[15:05:59] <LerneaenHydra> oh, how would I make it infinetly looping?
[15:06:35] <SWPadnos> not sure, and I don't think it's a good idea ;)
[15:06:50] <SWPadnos> consider how long it would take for axis to generate the preview plot
[15:06:54] <LerneaenHydra> this is stricly for testing purposes
[15:06:55] <LerneaenHydra> hmm
[15:06:59] <LerneaenHydra> that's true
[15:07:09] <LerneaenHydra> what about 10000 iterations?
[15:07:12] <SWPadnos> you can test with a few thousand loops
[15:07:14] <SWPadnos> right
[15:07:27] <LerneaenHydra> how would I do that, a while loop?
[15:07:34] <SWPadnos> sure. 1 sec
[15:08:10] <SWPadnos> replace the o1 call line with the following:
[15:09:10] <SWPadnos> #1=10000
[15:09:12] <SWPadnos> o2 do
[15:09:14] <SWPadnos> o1 call
[15:09:15] <SWPadnos> #5 = [#5 - 1]
[15:09:17] <SWPadnos> o2 while [#5 GT 0]
[15:09:28] <LerneaenHydra> that took quite a bit of code
[15:09:49] <SWPadnos> lots less than 10,000 repeated lines of "o1 call"
[15:10:00] <LerneaenHydra> well, thats for sure ;)
[15:10:44] <SWPadnos> it's not much worse than the C equivalent: for (i=0;i<10000;i++) o1();
[15:11:05] <LerneaenHydra> true
[15:11:53] <LerneaenHydra> it only runs once
[15:12:07] <SWPadnos> man - you know your hard drive is too big for your CPU when Norton Antivirus takes 9 hours 10 minutes to do a scan
[15:12:14] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[15:12:25] <LerneaenHydra> well, rather you've got too many small files
[15:12:42] <LerneaenHydra> still, 9 hours is a while
[15:12:44] <SWPadnos> or a slow hard drive / IDE controller
[15:13:09] <LerneaenHydra> *cough or bloated antivirus cough*
[15:13:14] <SWPadnos> yeah
[15:13:15] <LerneaenHydra> ;)
[15:13:43] <SWPadnos> this is a 5 year old Windows 200 install, that's been ghosted to a new drive twice (once due to partial drive failure)
[15:13:48] <SWPadnos> windows 2000
[15:14:01] <LerneaenHydra> drive failure... :( not fun at all
[15:14:12] <SWPadnos> nope - had an IBM DeathStar drive
[15:14:20] <LerneaenHydra> ah, I also had one of those
[15:14:26] <LerneaenHydra> a 40gb'er
[15:14:45] <LerneaenHydra> I got the click-o-death in 6 months
[15:14:55] <SWPadnos> I had a 60. still waiting for my $100 check from the class action suit
[15:15:10] <SWPadnos> that should buy 400G by the time it arrives ;)
[15:15:17] <LerneaenHydra> I got a newer ibm/hitachi 40gber a while back
[15:15:22] <LerneaenHydra> that would be much better ;)
[15:15:28] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:15:56] <LerneaenHydra> any idea as to why the program runs only once?
[15:16:12] <SWPadnos> the looping program?
[15:16:15] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[15:16:22] <SWPadnos> hmmm - not really
[15:16:26] <SWPadnos> gimme a sec
[15:18:06] <SWPadnos> heh - oops
[15:18:18] <SWPadnos> change #1=10000 to #5=10000
[15:18:33] <LerneaenHydra> ah, yes that would help
[15:19:10] <LerneaenHydra> yes that works
[15:19:11] <SWPadnos> silly me - I was looking at the wiki page, which used #5 for the loop var
[15:19:34] <SWPadnos> that would be a seriously scary program to run on my mill
[15:19:56] <LerneaenHydra> why so?
[15:20:07] <LerneaenHydra> weight?
[15:20:13] <SWPadnos> because the top speed may be as high as 180 IPM
[15:20:21] <SWPadnos> it's a Bridgeport
[15:20:22] <LerneaenHydra> or you who had the high IPM machine?
[15:20:25] <LerneaenHydra> ah, yes
[15:20:41] <SWPadnos> no, that's not really high speed. you may be thinking of les_w
[15:20:53] <LerneaenHydra> that may be
[15:21:15] <SWPadnos> his machine is the one that can accelerate at 1G or more
[15:21:23] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[15:21:26] <LerneaenHydra> that's a bit
[15:21:46] <SWPadnos> I think he said the Y axis can do 3G, but he's got it lilmited to 0.5
[15:21:50] <SWPadnos> limited
[15:22:09] <LerneaenHydra> well well, thats rather powerfull
[15:22:22] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it would be nice to be able to watch variables in the GUI
[15:22:32] <SWPadnos> like - how many loops are left?
[15:22:35] <LerneaenHydra> the subroutine calling doesn't appear to be RT-based
[15:22:47] <LerneaenHydra> the time betwwen the different loops varies alot
[15:22:54] <SWPadnos> it shouldn't
[15:22:59] <LerneaenHydra> from 20-30ms
[15:23:22] <SWPadnos> it should be interpreted the same as if there were 10000 repeated lines
[15:23:32] <LerneaenHydra> but it's not
[15:23:51] <SWPadnos> how are you measuring that? looking at the DIR line on the scope?
[15:23:52] <LerneaenHydra> timing vary greatly
[15:24:02] <LerneaenHydra> I have a physical osciliscope attached
[15:24:08] <LerneaenHydra> and I can hear it
[15:24:09] <SWPadnos> that's the scope I meant ;)
[15:24:24] <LerneaenHydra> not dir line, as I run steptype 2 (fullstep)
[15:24:28] <SWPadnos> are you running motors / a machine with this?
[15:24:31] <LerneaenHydra> I have homemade drivers
[15:24:39] <LerneaenHydra> just motors ATM
[15:24:42] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:24:57] <SWPadnos> I suppose I should hook up a scope to this and take a look
[15:25:26] <LerneaenHydra> I could take a picutre of it I guess
[15:25:30] <LerneaenHydra> if that would help
[15:25:47] <SWPadnos> nah - I've got all the test equipment I need for this
[15:25:50] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[15:26:09] <SWPadnos> wanna buy a 2 analog + 16 digital channel scope? ;)
[15:26:09] <LerneaenHydra> it would seem best for EMC to render all the lines first
[15:26:22] <SWPadnos> for a small program, that does seem best
[15:26:37] <LerneaenHydra> large ones could get very big then I guess
[15:26:38] <SWPadnos> but there are g-code files that are over 1Gig
[15:26:57] <LerneaenHydra> but they don't really tend to use subroutines that much, do they?
[15:27:08] <SWPadnos> and the pre-planning may need to be thrown out if the feed override changes
[15:27:11] <SWPadnos> nope
[15:28:10] <Bo^Dick> i'm still struggling with the board in eagle
[15:28:15] <SWPadnos> it would be nice if some CAM program would output code that human could change later
[15:28:34] <SWPadnos> like pocketing code that uses loops and variables
[15:29:11] <Bo^Dick> does software exist for placing components automatically on a board layout?
[15:32:31] <LerneaenHydra> SWPadnos: yes, that woud be good, although it may be hard to implement
[15:32:47] <LerneaenHydra> especially as the code varies to greatly from producer to producer
[15:41:08] <LerneaenHydra> SWPadnos: can you try running this:
[15:41:09] <LerneaenHydra> g0 x0 y0 z0
[15:41:11] <LerneaenHydra> o1 sub
[15:41:12] <LerneaenHydra> g3 x0 y0 i0 j10 f1000
[15:41:14] <LerneaenHydra> o1 endsub
[15:41:15] <LerneaenHydra> #5=1000
[15:41:17] <LerneaenHydra> o2 do
[15:41:18] <LerneaenHydra> o1 call
[15:41:20] <LerneaenHydra> #5=[#5-1]
[15:41:21] <LerneaenHydra> o2 while [#5 GT O]
[15:41:23] <LerneaenHydra> m2
[15:41:36] <SWPadnos> doing a pocket is much easier with loops. you program the outline / hatch pattern as a subroutine, then loop on Z to get to the right depth
[15:41:43] <LerneaenHydra> and look at the planned path vs the real one? (real one = toolpath the the cone follows)
[15:42:00] <LerneaenHydra> a 3d pocket is a bit harder though...
[15:42:11] <SWPadnos> the plotted path is sampled in userspace, so it doesn't exactly match the actual machine path
[15:42:25] <LerneaenHydra> iit was more than slightly off
[15:42:46] <LerneaenHydra> projected diameter of 508 whereas the real one is 10
[15:42:58] <SWPadnos> are you in mm or inch?
[15:42:59] <LerneaenHydra> mm
[15:45:10] <SWPadnos> I get an error "unknown word where unary operation could be"
[15:46:11] <LerneaenHydra> uh, I think I put an O instead of 0 in [#5 GT O/0]
[15:46:31] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:46:38] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:48:18] <SWPadnos> I think you have a machine unit / user unit issue there. it's got the correct diameter of 20 inches on my plot, and the "real" trace matches the preview
[15:48:35] <LerneaenHydra> hmm
[15:48:41] <LerneaenHydra> where do I set up that?
[15:48:47] <LerneaenHydra> in teh stepper_mm.ini?
[15:49:00] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure
[15:49:27] <SWPadnos> there's no g20 / g21 in the program, so it's kinda random as to what units are used
[15:49:59] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok
[15:50:14] <LerneaenHydra> still kinda random sounds not too good
[15:50:24] <LerneaenHydra> shouldn't it complain or something?
[15:50:28] <SWPadnos> that's why you should always put a G20 or G21 in your code ;)
[15:50:36] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[15:50:39] <SWPadnos> nope - it's perfectly valid
[15:50:43] <LerneaenHydra> which is which?
[15:51:01] <SWPadnos> g20 is inch, I believe
[15:51:18] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:52:08] <LerneaenHydra> what does the machine units value in the config.ini file mean?
[15:52:15] <LerneaenHydra> g21 fixes it
[15:52:36] <SWPadnos> it sets the units for the machine hardware
[15:52:46] <SWPadnos> if you have a mm ballscrew, it makes sense to use mm for the machine
[15:52:49] <LerneaenHydra> it is a number
[15:53:05] <LerneaenHydra> currently I've set it to 1
[15:53:19] <SWPadnos> right - it's the number of machine units per mm
[15:53:33] <SWPadnos> 1 means mm machine. .0393... means inch machine
[15:53:45] <LerneaenHydra> machine units... what are they?
[15:54:12] <SWPadnos> it's just the measuring system for the machine itself
[15:54:17] <LerneaenHydra> oh, ok
[15:54:32] <SWPadnos> if you have a 25mm ballscrew with 5mm pitch, then you should use mm for machine units
[15:54:33] <LerneaenHydra> so one could just as well change input_scale?
[15:54:42] <SWPadnos> if you have a 1 inch ballscrew with 5 TPI, then use inch
[15:55:04] <SWPadnos> no, that's the number of steps/encoder ticks per machine unit
[15:55:30] <SWPadnos> g-code can be in mm or inch. emc needs to know which one to scale for the underlying machine
[15:55:32] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok, but they are both used for teh same calc
[15:55:37] <SWPadnos> one of them will be 1:1, the other won't
[15:55:52] <LerneaenHydra> oh, so an inch based gcode to be used on a MM machine
[15:55:54] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[15:55:59] <LerneaenHydra> then you need both yes
[15:56:05] <SWPadnos> right - either code can be used on either machine
[15:56:15] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[15:56:18] <SWPadnos> that's why you should specify g20 or g21
[15:56:22] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[15:57:01] <SWPadnos> it would be nice to just use mm for all machines, but then 98% of americans would get confused ;)
[15:57:29] <LerneaenHydra> sounds like you use MM too ;)
[15:57:41] <SWPadnos> I use inch, but I'm in the 2% that likes metric ;)
[15:57:52] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok
[15:58:14] <SWPadnos> my ballscrews are 1.25 inch dia, 5TPI, so inch is better for the machine
[15:58:19] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[15:58:24] <SWPadnos> plus I have to talk to americans ... ;)
[16:02:28] <SWPadnos> LerneaenHydra, can you change just the traj period, and see if there's a difference in motor sound?
[16:47:52] <LerneaenHydra__> LerneaenHydra__ is now known as LerneaenHydra
[17:06:54] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[17:08:23] <jmkasunich> saw the discussion about threads
[17:09:08] <jmkasunich> traj-thread is a red herring, right now the traj code runs in the servo thread (but runs every Nth time, based on the ratio of servo and traj periods
[17:09:31] <jmkasunich> that is also how emc1 used to do it
[17:11:31] <LerneaenHydra> is there any easy way to see how much time the traj code takes?
[17:11:38] <jmkasunich> no
[17:11:49] <jmkasunich> its lumped in with the servo code
[17:12:20] <jmkasunich> I missed the first part of the conversation, what is going on?
[17:12:24] <LerneaenHydra> soo the best thing one can do for now is to test low values, and when there is not enough time for it to finihs one takes the next step up?
[17:12:54] <jmkasunich> please fill me in on what you are talking about
[17:13:03] <LerneaenHydra> I'm trying to figure out how short I can let the traj period be, to reduce the "jerkiness" when running line interpolated curves (spiral.ngc)
[17:13:04] <jmkasunich> I find it hard to believe that traj is running out of time
[17:13:45] <jmkasunich> are you running steppers (software generated step pulses)?
[17:13:49] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[17:14:00] <LerneaenHydra> steptype 2
[17:14:02] <jmkasunich> ok, base thread is the biggest RT load then
[17:14:11] <jmkasunich> what is your base period?
[17:14:16] <LerneaenHydra> 20k
[17:14:26] <jmkasunich> 20000nS = 50KHz?
[17:15:04] <LerneaenHydra> that sounds plausible
[17:15:25] <jmkasunich> I was asking for clarification
[17:15:47] <LerneaenHydra> clarification around what? why I am messing with traj time?
[17:16:16] <jmkasunich> when someone says 20K, I'm not sure whether they're talkiing about 20KnS (which is a really weird way to specify time) or 20KHz (which is a fairly natural way to specify a frequency)
[17:16:30] <LerneaenHydra> oh, 20KnS
[17:16:33] <jmkasunich> ok
[17:16:44] <jmkasunich> and servo period is 1mS (1000000nS)?
[17:16:53] <LerneaenHydra> (yes that is a rather unnatural way to express frequency)
[17:17:01] <LerneaenHydra> at the moment it's at 2ms
[17:17:22] <jmkasunich> _servo_ is 2mS? or _traj_ is 2mS?
[17:17:24] <LerneaenHydra> I have not yet tested 1ms
[17:17:29] <jmkasunich> the default for servo is 1mS
[17:17:40] <jmkasunich> the default for traj is 10mS
[17:18:46] <LerneaenHydra> base period: 20knS
[17:18:48] <LerneaenHydra> servo period: 1ms
[17:18:49] <LerneaenHydra> traj period: 2ms
[17:18:54] <jmkasunich> ok
[17:19:47] <jmkasunich> can you do halcmd show thread and paste it here?
[17:19:54] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[17:21:21] <jmkasunich> also, what is your processor speed? do cat /proc/cpu, there should be a line like cpu MHz : 1667.742
[17:21:34] <LerneaenHydra> I think I did that earlier, here's the link: http://pastebin.com/675170
[17:22:06] <LerneaenHydra> its a PIII 800mhz coppermine (I'm not sure of the fsb speed), in a socket-a look-alike
[17:22:16] <jmkasunich> the 800MHz is all I need
[17:22:34] <jmkasunich> that lets us convert the times from bin/halcmd (in clocks) to seconds
[17:22:42] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok
[17:22:45] <jmkasunich> first lets look at your base thread
[17:23:33] <jmkasunich> max clocks was 11363, times 1.25nS/clock (800MHz) = 14203nS = 14.2uS
[17:23:41] <jmkasunich> your base period is 20000nS = 20uS
[17:23:47] <jmkasunich> so you never have an overrun, thats good
[17:23:51] <LerneaenHydra> that sounds like a good value
[17:24:21] <LerneaenHydra> how much does max vary from run to run, does some code stress the base thread more than others?
[17:24:25] <jmkasunich> the worst case time means that 14/20 or 70% of the CPU is used by base thread
[17:24:38] <jmkasunich> but typically its a lot lower
[17:24:55] <jmkasunich> its not so much the code, its everything else
[17:24:59] <Bo^Dick> does software exist for component automatic placement in a board layout?
[17:25:26] <jmkasunich> Bo^Dick: yes, its usually very expensive, and IMHO it does a crappy job
[17:26:34] <jmkasunich> LH: the time it takes to run the code (any code) varies dramatically based on whether its in cache or not, and various other factors
[17:27:03] <jmkasunich> the two numbers in the parantheses are the most recent measurement, and the highest one since you started the program
[17:27:32] <LerneaenHydra> ok, is there any possibility (within reasonable bounds) of there being code that makes it use 100% cpu, and miss stuff, and if so what happens?
[17:27:39] <jmkasunich> if you start doing stuff while it runs (browse the web, view a video, etc) the max will probably go up
[17:28:02] <jmkasunich> yes, its possible to use 100%
[17:28:10] <LerneaenHydra> will things like that increase the time used in base thread?
[17:28:18] <jmkasunich> yes
[17:28:19] <LerneaenHydra> what happens if you use 100%
[17:28:37] <jmkasunich> depends on how bad you go over 100% and how often
[17:28:45] <LerneaenHydra> worst case?
[17:28:52] <jmkasunich> lockup the machine
[17:29:12] <LerneaenHydra> so no max feedrate in material?
[17:29:20] <jmkasunich> huh?
[17:29:39] <jmkasunich> time used by the code and feedrate thru the material are only very very loosly related
[17:29:39] <Bo^Dick> i'm still intrested to find a software that places the components in a smart way
[17:29:55] <jmkasunich> Bo^Dick: then get out your wallet
[17:30:24] <LerneaenHydra> there is no chance of 100% cpu usage cause some error that would make it do a max feed?
[17:30:39] <LerneaenHydra> by no chance I mean within reasonable bounds
[17:30:45] <jmkasunich> LH: you are confusing the hell out of me
[17:31:01] <jmkasunich> are you saying that you commanded a slow feed but got a fast one?
[17:31:13] <Bo^Dick> do you know a name on such software?
[17:32:19] <jmkasunich> google "pcb autorouter"
[17:32:21] <LerneaenHydra> no.. ok, what I mean is that in the worst case scenario when overloading the CPU with RT commands, the machine will only lock up? that there is no reasonable chance that some output buffer will flush causing a queued motion to be done at a very fast rate?
[17:32:40] <jmkasunich> just be warned, autorouter software will _not_ make you into an electrical engineer
[17:32:41] <Bo^Dick> i'm not talking about autorouters
[17:32:58] <jmkasunich> autoplace and autoroute go together
[17:33:10] <Bo^Dick> really
[17:33:19] <Bo^Dick> no in eagle
[17:33:42] <jmkasunich> I don't think eagle does either autoplace _or_ autoroute
[17:34:08] <Bo^Dick> eagle has an autorouter but not an autoplacer
[17:34:18] <jmkasunich> well then you know more about it than I do
[17:34:38] <Bo^Dick> what software do you use when making boards?
[17:34:48] <jmkasunich> at work I use PADS
[17:34:53] <jmkasunich> at home, so far I haven't made boards
[17:35:09] <jmkasunich> I don't use autoroute or autoplace, IMHO they suck and I can do better myself
[17:35:11] <Bo^Dick> does PADS come with an autoplacer?
[17:35:22] <jmkasunich> I don't know, and I don't care
[17:35:29] <Bo^Dick> well then you're a proffesional board designer
[17:35:40] <jmkasunich> no, I'm an electrical engineer
[17:36:37] <Bo^Dick> it's funny that autoplacers and autorouters are expensive and does a crappy job
[17:36:50] <jmkasunich> LH: don't know what you mean by "overloading the CPU with RT commands"
[17:36:53] <SWPadnos> funny but true
[17:37:30] <Bo^Dick> i still would like to find an autoplacer
[17:37:31] <jmkasunich> if you set base_period too short, the box can lock up, or start having overruns, but that has nothing to do with "RT commands"
[17:37:34] <LerneaenHydra> I mean that you for example were to set base thread to something like 10KnS, which is lower than the highest recorded
[17:37:56] <LerneaenHydra> by RT commands I meant CPU time that is used by the realtime subsystem
[17:38:32] <Bo^Dick> so i'd be grateful for tips regarding autoplacers
[17:38:52] <jmkasunich> if you set base thread to 10uS, at least sometimes the code would run longer than that
[17:39:06] <jmkasunich> but the results would probably be slower than normal motion, not faster
[17:39:30] <LerneaenHydra> so it's not possible that the result would be faster (significantly faster)
[17:39:52] <jmkasunich> I never say something is impossible
[17:39:55] <SWPadnos> Bo^Dick, http://www.cadstarworld.com/express/avi/Auto_Placement_Components.html
[17:40:14] <LerneaenHydra> so it's definetly not good to use 100% cpu
[17:40:15] <jmkasunich> however if thats what you are seeing, there are probably a lot more likely explanations than overruns
[17:40:23] <jmkasunich> no, of course not
[17:40:29] <Bo^Dick> thx
[17:40:30] <LerneaenHydra> no, I'm not seeing that
[17:40:36] <LerneaenHydra> just conjecture
[17:40:55] <jmkasunich> if the RT code uses all the CPU, theres nothing left for the user interface (or any part of Linux) which is why you get lockups
[17:41:01] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[17:41:41] <jmkasunich> _probably_, 90% of the time when the base thread runs it uses 3000-4000 clocks (4-5uS), but once in a while (maybe only one time) it used 11363
[17:42:08] <jmkasunich> so if you set the period to 10uS, you would sometimes (maybe only once) get an overrun, but most times there would be 5-6uS left over
[17:42:09] <LerneaenHydra> at the moment I'm getting slow performance when changing the feedrate while running a program (or doing anything else while running a program) should I maybe lower the base thread period?
[17:42:27] <jmkasunich> dunno
[17:42:41] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[17:42:52] <jmkasunich> if you wiggle the mouse around while emc is running, does the cursor move smoothly or is it jerky?
[17:43:01] <LerneaenHydra> smoothly
[17:43:19] <jmkasunich> then I don't think you have a problem with base-period (or servo-period)
[17:43:28] <LerneaenHydra> however stuff in the GUI moves very jerkily, somethign like 2-7 seconds behind
[17:43:38] <jmkasunich> if the RT code is using too much CPU time, the mouse gets jerky
[17:43:43] <jmkasunich> other GUI stuff gets jerky too
[17:43:43] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[17:43:57] <LerneaenHydra> well, semi-jerky
[17:44:00] <LerneaenHydra> the mouse that is
[17:44:01] <jmkasunich> is it only the EMC gui that is affected, or do other windows get jerky too?
[17:44:36] <jmkasunich> you should be able to drag a window around on the screen while EMC is running without much jerkyness
[17:44:45] <LerneaenHydra> menus and such seem to be ok, moving windows is ok, but the mouse moves somewhat jerkily
[17:44:58] <jmkasunich> (it shouldn't be much worse than doing the same thing without EMC running)
[17:45:07] <LerneaenHydra> it's nearly the same
[17:45:14] <jmkasunich> then I don't think its a RT issue
[17:45:19] <LerneaenHydra> things in the EMC windows however are much slower
[17:45:27] <LerneaenHydra> I'm running AXIS 1.2.1
[17:45:44] <jmkasunich> you said emc window_s_?
[17:45:47] <jmkasunich> plural?
[17:45:50] <LerneaenHydra> sorry
[17:45:52] <LerneaenHydra> typo
[17:45:56] <jmkasunich> ok
[17:45:59] <LerneaenHydra> only one instance
[17:46:26] <Bo^Dick> is "cadstar" the only one?
[17:47:33] <jmkasunich> Bo^Dick: most pro-grade pcb layout systems (the ones that are likely to have auto-place) are $10,000 and up
[17:47:44] <LerneaenHydra> I've been running the program a bit more and currently have reached 12733 at most in base thread, which would be 60% cpu
[17:48:10] <jmkasunich> lets back up a little
[17:48:19] <jmkasunich> what is the problem that got this whole conversation started?
[17:49:00] <LerneaenHydra> haha, I get jerkiness in pulselength while doing line interpolated curves (like spiral.ngc)
[17:49:12] <Bo^Dick> i don't care about the expensiveness of the software
[17:49:13] <jmkasunich> "in pulselength"
[17:49:16] <jmkasunich> what does that mean
[17:50:29] <jmkasunich> Bo^Dick: google is your friend
[17:51:01] <jmkasunich> LH: the step generation algorithm runs every base_period, in your case every 20uS
[17:51:01] <Bo^Dick> direct connect is my friend :P
[17:51:19] <jmkasunich> it can _only_ change an output pin at one of those 20uS intervals
[17:51:35] <LerneaenHydra> uh, when looking at the stepper waveform (grey code) when going from one speed to another (looking at one motor, X-motor for instance), as the speed will rise/lower when doing a circle) there is an intermediate step whose shape is very very far off, somethign like 10% of the step, far more than 20µs. Cradek said this was a known flaw
[17:51:53] <LerneaenHydra> yes but it changes the output pin far too early/late
[17:52:07] <jmkasunich> any way you can show me a scope photo?
[17:52:11] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[17:52:14] <jmkasunich> or even a drawing of what you see on the scope?
[17:52:23] <LerneaenHydra> I'll send a video clip
[17:52:23] <jmkasunich> this is really hard to understand in words
[17:52:36] <LerneaenHydra> just a few minutes
[17:52:47] <jmkasunich> I dunno if I'm set up for video, but I can try
[17:53:09] <LerneaenHydra> I can change to a videocodec that you have
[17:54:11] <jmkasunich> I just have to figure out what player and codecs I have
[17:54:30] <jmkasunich> (I don't normally care about video, I don't even have a sound card in this box)
[17:54:35] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[17:54:45] <LerneaenHydra> uh, this is a linux box?
[17:55:05] <jmkasunich> yeah, ubuntu
[17:55:05] <LerneaenHydra> if so you can apt-get vlc and the codecs with it, then it has mpeg-4 support
[17:55:17] <LerneaenHydra> (along with lots of others)
[17:56:18] <jmkasunich> looks like there are a lot of plugins for vlc
[17:56:21] <jmkasunich> which do I need?
[17:56:39] <jmkasunich> they seem to be output plugins, not codecs
[17:56:56] <SWPadnos> output is how you get to watch / listen to things
[17:57:16] <jmkasunich> 20.7M of stuff downloading
[17:57:29] <SWPadnos> 2 minutes ;)
[17:57:51] <LerneaenHydra> shh
[17:57:53] <LerneaenHydra> ;)
[17:58:05] <LerneaenHydra> hmm, maybe the codec come with as default
[17:58:34] <LerneaenHydra> I found out that I have another program that is more suiable, hence the wait ;)
[17:59:24] <jmkasunich> ok, I have vlc installed
[18:00:21] <LerneaenHydra> have you got a modem or something faster?
[18:00:33] <jmkasunich> DSL
[18:00:36] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:00:41] <LerneaenHydra> so 5mb or so is ok?
[18:00:45] <jmkasunich> yeah
[18:01:03] <jmkasunich> a still pic of the scope screen would probably be fine tho ;-)
[18:04:06] <LerneaenHydra> I've got both a g3 and line interpolated so one can see the difference
[18:04:10] <LerneaenHydra> there
[18:04:24] <LerneaenHydra> ftp://basic:basic@
[18:04:28] <LerneaenHydra> temp5.avi
[18:05:35] <LerneaenHydra> sorry, now the server shoudl be up
[18:06:02] <LerneaenHydra> pw is basic
[18:06:27] <jmkasunich> downloading
[18:06:33] <LerneaenHydra> good
[18:06:54] <LerneaenHydra> I included sound so that you can hear the artifacts too
[18:07:17] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh-away
[18:07:34] <jmkasunich> remember when I said I don't have a soundcard? ;-)
[18:07:52] <LerneaenHydra> yep
[18:08:02] <LerneaenHydra> but if anyone else has one they can hear at least ;)
[18:08:16] <LerneaenHydra> SWPadnos may have one
[18:09:10] <LerneaenHydra> oh and for the suspicious: pr0n.zip is not what you may beleive it is ;)
[18:09:31] <jmkasunich> I wasn't gonna say anything about that ;-)
[18:10:02] <LerneaenHydra> it's an internal thing with a few freinds I have, it's actually quite the opposite ;)
[18:10:24] <jmkasunich> what is the opposite of pron?
[18:10:27] <jmkasunich> church?
[18:10:39] <jmkasunich> cute puppies and kittens?
[18:11:25] <LerneaenHydra> no, more like really hot! (really, I promise ;) ) people (my friends) in clothing that doesn't suit that gender
[18:12:01] <SWPadnos> hold on one sec - I had to stop the mp3 player to listen ;)
[18:12:08] <LerneaenHydra> hehe
[18:12:36] <jmkasunich> thats why its taking so long for me to download it
[18:12:48] <jmkasunich> SWP was downloading the pron and clogging up your line
[18:13:00] <LerneaenHydra> no, my upload is limited at 100
[18:13:04] <SWPadnos> the earlier part sounds odd, with sudden changes in frequency
[18:13:13] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:13:18] <SWPadnos> the last part is more like I would expect, with a smooth transition in step rates
[18:13:24] <LerneaenHydra> that's the line interpolated circular move
[18:13:25] <LerneaenHydra> the latter is a g3
[18:13:39] <LerneaenHydra> and one can see the "jerkyness"
[18:13:49] <LerneaenHydra> in the line interpolation
[18:14:02] <SWPadnos> is that M 1.00 ms the time per division?
[18:14:12] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:14:22] <LerneaenHydra> so those jumps are very large
[18:14:24] <SWPadnos> those are awfully slow step rates then
[18:14:38] <LerneaenHydra> it's going at 7.5rps
[18:14:40] <LerneaenHydra> at most
[18:14:50] <LerneaenHydra> 200steps/turn
[18:14:53] <jmkasunich> it might be latency in the hardware
[18:15:08] <jmkasunich> invisible to the code in emc that records time
[18:15:12] <LerneaenHydra> computer hardware?
[18:15:15] <jmkasunich> have you tried the rtai latency test
[18:15:17] <jmkasunich> yes
[18:15:19] <LerneaenHydra> no
[18:15:31] <jmkasunich> some motherboards, etc, don't work well for realtime
[18:15:44] <jmkasunich> sometimes you can improve it, turning off power management in the bios, etc
[18:15:47] <LerneaenHydra> however loweing the traj period to 2ms instead of 10ms greatly lowered that effect
[18:15:51] <LerneaenHydra> nearly removing it
[18:16:02] <LerneaenHydra> still there however
[18:16:09] <LerneaenHydra> mostly only audible
[18:16:31] <SWPadnos> I don't think it was the traj period. you also changed the servo or base period at that time
[18:16:44] <LerneaenHydra> no, im quite sure I didn't
[18:17:29] <LerneaenHydra> I can test loweing it and making sure not to touch anything else
[18:17:48] <SWPadnos> logger_aj, bookmark
[18:17:48] <SWPadnos> See
[18:18:18] <jmkasunich> LH: do you have your scope handy now? or is the video from earlier?
[18:18:31] <LerneaenHydra> that video is from 3 mintues ago
[18:18:34] <jmkasunich> http://pastebin.com/675512
[18:18:35] <LerneaenHydra> so it's still there
[18:19:09] <jmkasunich> dunno if you are doing run-in-place or installed, the difference is only whether you have to specify scripts and bin in front of everything
[18:19:14] <LerneaenHydra> I'm running EMC2 so that first line won't work, what about the others?
[18:19:22] <LerneaenHydra> emc2 installed
[18:19:34] <jmkasunich> with EMC2 not running,
[18:19:41] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:19:45] <jmkasunich> you should be able to do "realtime start" from the command line
[18:19:55] <jmkasunich> the "scripts/realtime start" is for run-in-place
[18:20:03] <LerneaenHydra> /etc/init.d/realtime start (IIRC)?
[18:20:12] <jmkasunich> could be
[18:20:31] <jmkasunich> I don't run installed here, since I have several versions at any one time
[18:20:40] <jmkasunich> but that sounds right
[18:20:44] <LerneaenHydra> yes that works
[18:21:14] <jmkasunich> what that does is sets up an inverter with its output connected back to its input, and to parport pin 2
[18:21:20] <jmkasunich> (you can pick any pin)
[18:21:24] <SWPadnos> ok - here it is. you had tried 1.5 ms at first, but that didn't work (bad traj period: 1500000 nsec), then you lowered base to 20 uS, and set traj to 2 ms
[18:21:32] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:21:36] <LerneaenHydra> then it worked
[18:21:49] <SWPadnos> so I suspect it was the base thread changing that made the difference, not the traj thread
[18:21:54] <LerneaenHydra> then for this video I just recorded, i set it back to 10ms, and left base at 20
[18:21:57] <jmkasunich> so with a 20uS period, the pin should toggle every 20uS, so you get a 40uS period, 25KHz square wave
[18:22:01] <SWPadnos> since there are no functions in the traj thread
[18:22:23] <jmkasunich> look at the square wave with the scope and see if its jittery
[18:22:44] <LerneaenHydra> the video I just recorded was with traj at 10 and base at 20
[18:22:53] <jmkasunich> and servo at 1mS?
[18:22:55] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:23:08] <jmkasunich> base is used only to generate the step pulses
[18:23:15] <jmkasunich> servo is used for the rest of the control
[18:23:19] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:23:22] <LerneaenHydra> servo is at 1ms
[18:23:23] <jmkasunich> and the traj code runs in the servo thread, but not every time
[18:23:40] <fenn> * fenn wants to embed "units" in inifind so i can say BASE_PERIOD = 20us
[18:23:41] <LerneaenHydra> do I need to be in halcmd to run the code, becuase bash complains
[18:23:51] <jmkasunich> if servo is 1mS, and traj is 5mS. then the traj code will run once every five times
[18:23:55] <fenn> or 20khz or .00000001 fortnight
[18:24:03] <LerneaenHydra> ...
[18:24:14] <jmkasunich> the code in that pastebin?
[18:24:20] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:24:28] <jmkasunich> paste the line and complaint here
[18:24:34] <SWPadnos> add #!/bin/bash to the top line
[18:24:42] <LerneaenHydra> * LerneaenHydra agrees with fenn and wants all units in olden units
[18:24:55] <SWPadnos> I mean, insert that as the top line
[18:25:33] <LerneaenHydra> I ran #!/bin/bash but it still complains when doing loadrt
[18:25:35] <jmkasunich> did you copy it into a file? (as SWP is saying) or just type it on the command line
[18:25:44] <LerneaenHydra> typing
[18:25:51] <jmkasunich> ok, thats what I had in mind
[18:25:55] <SWPadnos> actually, the problem is that this is an installed emc, not RIP
[18:26:19] <SWPadnos> so the scripts/ and bin/ need to go (not sure about where realtime is)
[18:26:30] <jmkasunich> he already found and ran realtime
[18:26:37] <jmkasunich> halcmd is in the path if you are installed
[18:26:43] <LerneaenHydra> halcmd?
[18:26:46] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:26:48] <SWPadnos> ok, so just use halcmd blah blah instead of bin/halcmd
[18:26:53] <jmkasunich> so instead of bin/halcmd loadrt, just do halcmd loadrt
[18:28:05] <jmkasunich> btw, when you are done with this test, do:
[18:28:09] <jmkasunich> halcmd unloadrt all
[18:28:19] <jmkasunich> /etc/init.d/realtime stop
[18:28:23] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:28:26] <fenn> anyone happen to know the screw thread for computer cases and hard drive mounting screws?
[18:28:39] <fenn> the size
[18:28:41] <jmkasunich> I think it might be 6-32
[18:29:19] <LerneaenHydra> haL. error: function not.0 not found
[18:29:21] <jmkasunich> yeah, I'm 90% sure thats it
[18:29:40] <jmkasunich> did the halcmd loadrt blocks not=1 line generate any error?
[18:29:48] <LerneaenHydra> no
[18:30:00] <jmkasunich> fenn: cdroms are different, I think they're metric
[18:30:11] <SWPadnos> cdroms use floppy screws, I think
[18:30:13] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: yes they are metric
[18:30:17] <LerneaenHydra> m3 IIRC
[18:30:19] <SWPadnos> HD and case screws are usually the same
[18:30:24] <jmkasunich> halcmd show comp
[18:30:28] <jmkasunich> halcmd show funct
[18:30:38] <SWPadnos> halcmd show all -> pastebin
[18:31:23] <fenn> there seems to be a fine thread and a coarse thread
[18:31:24] <LerneaenHydra> 675534
[18:31:39] <LerneaenHydra> fenn: the fine thread (for cdroms) is metric and size M3
[18:31:47] <SWPadnos> blocks isn't loaded
[18:32:13] <fenn> ok that makes sense
[18:32:28] <jmkasunich> the coarse one, hard disks, slot covers and misc, is english and 6-32
[18:32:44] <jmkasunich> ain't that wonderfully consistent?
[18:32:56] <fenn> hell i mix metric/sae all the time
[18:33:11] <jmkasunich> the IBM PC, and the hard disks, are US inventions, the cdrom drive is japanese
[18:33:18] <LerneaenHydra> 12+3/8 = fun fun fun
[18:33:32] <LerneaenHydra> (M12 and UNC 3/8 that is)
[18:33:33] <fenn> i've got 8mm bearings on 5/16 shafts :(
[18:33:48] <jmkasunich> LH: try the "halcmd loadrt blocks not=1" again
[18:34:16] <LerneaenHydra> test works now
[18:34:36] <jmkasunich> got a 25KHz (40uS) square wave on the scope?
[18:34:39] <LerneaenHydra> or well
[18:34:47] <LerneaenHydra> not.0 teset
[18:34:58] <LerneaenHydra> still tping the rest
[18:35:01] <jmkasunich> ok
[18:35:39] <LerneaenHydra> is line 9 really correct?
[18:36:04] <LerneaenHydra> I shoudl split it, right?
[18:36:13] <jmkasunich> oops, yeah
[18:36:23] <SWPadnos> and leave out all the jmk stuff ;)
[18:36:44] <LerneaenHydra> yep
[18:36:45] <jmkasunich> my prompt is longer than half the commands I type
[18:36:52] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:37:36] <jmkasunich> if you do halcmd show now, it should look like http://pastebin.com/675541
[18:37:45] <LerneaenHydra> 20µs squarewave
[18:37:55] <LerneaenHydra> accurate too
[18:38:00] <jmkasunich> 20uS hi and low times, 40uS period I hope
[18:38:14] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:38:28] <jmkasunich> ok, do "stuff" on the PC while looking at the squarewave
[18:38:33] <SWPadnos> what's the MaxTime for the thread?
[18:38:42] <jmkasunich> stuff = open a browser
[18:38:52] <jmkasunich> or anything else that excercises the box
[18:39:02] <jmkasunich> compile a kernel ;-)
[18:39:05] <LerneaenHydra> how did I check time?
[18:39:09] <LerneaenHydra> haha
[18:39:13] <SWPadnos> wimpy - play a video, be a real man!
[18:39:16] <jmkasunich> even just dragging around windows
[18:39:16] <LerneaenHydra> compile gentoo
[18:39:24] <LerneaenHydra> 5 years later...
[18:39:35] <SWPadnos> emerge -dU world
[18:39:39] <jmkasunich> anyway, you're looking for any jitter on that square wave
[18:39:57] <jmkasunich> if none, thats good (for you) and bad (for all of us)
[18:40:03] <LerneaenHydra> well, to being with the squarewave isn't perfect
[18:40:07] <SWPadnos> can you trigger on a pulse width?
[18:40:08] <LerneaenHydra> its jittering a tiny bit
[18:40:32] <LerneaenHydra> it's not mine so i'm not sure, but I only know how to trigger on rise/fall
[18:40:33] <SWPadnos> that's interrupt latency variation (jitter), and it'll never go away
[18:40:48] <jmkasunich> if its a few microseconds, thats no big deal
[18:40:51] <jmkasunich> no PC is perfect
[18:41:16] <LerneaenHydra> when moving around windows I get up to 5µs jitter
[18:41:17] <jmkasunich> the bad ones (some laptops especially) will sometimes just ignore interrupts completely for 10s, 100s of uS, sometimes even 10s of mS
[18:41:21] <LerneaenHydra> mostly is aourn 1-2µs
[18:41:30] <jmkasunich> not bad
[18:41:40] <LerneaenHydra> occasionly (<1%) 5µs, but not more
[18:41:42] <jmkasunich> that is an indicator of the native realtime capabilities of your computer
[18:41:53] <SWPadnos> put the scope display in infinite persistence mode
[18:42:07] <SWPadnos> you'll see bad pulses better that way
[18:42:12] <LerneaenHydra> * LerneaenHydra doesn't get SWPadnos
[18:42:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:42:27] <LerneaenHydra> yoah, liek that
[18:42:29] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:42:29] <SWPadnos> under the display menu, there should be an option for "persistence"
[18:42:36] <LerneaenHydra> I have somethign similar I think
[18:42:47] <SWPadnos> ok -I'm trying to remember what a TekScope is like
[18:43:00] <SWPadnos> it's been a while
[18:43:07] <LerneaenHydra> i've got somethign called peak detect
[18:43:12] <jmkasunich> the scope in the video didn't look like a tek to me
[18:43:16] <LerneaenHydra> hmm
[18:43:21] <SWPadnos> it says tek in the upper left corner
[18:43:29] <LerneaenHydra> nope, that didn't help, only helped with peaks in the volage, not in time
[18:43:33] <SWPadnos> it looks like the portable tekscope
[18:43:42] <LerneaenHydra> yep, tektronix
[18:43:47] <LerneaenHydra> yes
[18:43:48] <SWPadnos> (the only isolated scope you can buy these days, it seems)
[18:43:52] <LerneaenHydra> tds 220
[18:44:10] <jmkasunich> duh
[18:44:16] <SWPadnos> ok - is that one of the portable benchtops, or the one that's battery powered?
[18:44:23] <jmkasunich> (as I look at the video again and see the big TEK in the corner)
[18:44:26] <LerneaenHydra> portable benchtop
[18:44:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:44:31] <jmkasunich> just not used to black traces on white background
[18:44:34] <LerneaenHydra> runs on 220VAC
[18:44:38] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:44:52] <LerneaenHydra> the display is slow though so I can see if there is jitter
[18:45:08] <LerneaenHydra> but the worst jitter seems to be around 5µs
[18:45:33] <jmkasunich> and the jitter we were seeing earlier was more like 100uS or more
[18:45:50] <LerneaenHydra> the litter amount seems to have a gaussian spread
[18:45:50] <SWPadnos> display -> persist -> infinite
[18:45:54] <LerneaenHydra> yes, really awful
[18:46:12] <LerneaenHydra> SWPadnos: that works, thanks
[18:46:16] <SWPadnos> np
[18:47:15] <LerneaenHydra> after many iterations i've got lots of 5µs and one 10µs
[18:47:26] <LerneaenHydra> (lots = 5 or so)
[18:48:17] <LerneaenHydra> oh, is the parport short-circiut proof?
[18:48:25] <LerneaenHydra> havn't done anything bad, yet
[18:48:34] <jmkasunich> I'd try to avoid shorting it
[18:48:43] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:48:47] <jmkasunich> probably a short to ground, or from one output to another, won't hurt
[18:48:56] <jmkasunich> but shorting to +5 might
[18:49:09] <jmkasunich> and shorting to +12 or more would be very bad
[18:49:12] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:49:15] <LerneaenHydra> yes, thats cure
[18:49:20] <SWPadnos> shorting to AC mains would be very bad
[18:49:22] <LerneaenHydra> it would most likely be a short to groun
[18:49:41] <LerneaenHydra> shorting to AC would be very very bad, but exposed as is rather hard to find
[18:49:49] <jmkasunich> if its a motherboard parport I'd be extra carefull just because they're hard to replace
[18:50:04] <LerneaenHydra> yes, it is a motherboard parport, and i've ordewd an external one
[18:50:25] <SWPadnos> you ordered that dual PCI card?
[18:50:29] <jmkasunich> I was in a computer store earlier today, and was amazed to see that you can still buy an ISA parport card
[18:50:39] <LerneaenHydra> no, a single output pci card
[18:50:43] <SWPadnos> ah
[18:50:52] <LerneaenHydra> yeah I found some ISA cards in a store too, really surprizing
[18:51:01] <LerneaenHydra> they took far too much for the daul one
[18:51:19] <jmkasunich> of course the same store was trying to peddle books about "Learning Red Hat Linux"
[18:51:31] <SWPadnos> *new* version 4.2!
[18:51:34] <LerneaenHydra> and I'll use the external one for testing so in total i'll have two ports later which will leave me with lots of free I/O
[18:51:34] <jmkasunich> "includes CD-ROM with RedHat Version 4"
[18:51:39] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[18:51:42] <SWPadnos> heh - not far off ;)
[18:52:04] <jmkasunich> I did get some goodies that I want to mess with later
[18:52:34] <jmkasunich> thing that fits in a 3.5" floppy space, plugs into mobo USB conn, and takes 10-11 kinds of memory cards
[18:52:47] <jmkasunich> (including the kind our digital camera uses)
[18:52:49] <LerneaenHydra> too bad cradek isn't here, he may have wanted too see that vieo, he seemed to know about the jerkiness, although he may have misunderstood me
[18:52:52] <SWPadnos> I've got one of those, and it's even a floppy drive as well
[18:53:06] <jmkasunich> yeah, I may actually take it back and get one like that
[18:53:09] <SWPadnos> he can see the link in the scrollback or logs
[18:53:16] <SWPadnos> look out for cable length though
[18:53:25] <LerneaenHydra> my server probably won't be on though
[18:53:31] <SWPadnos> I couldn't use mine because the USB cable is about 6 inches long
[18:53:31] <jmkasunich> I didn't realize I only have one 3.5" opening
[18:53:34] <LerneaenHydra> why would you want a floppy drive?
[18:53:44] <SWPadnos> to be able to read/write floppies
[18:53:46] <jmkasunich> to make floppies?
[18:53:52] <LerneaenHydra> ...
[18:54:00] <LerneaenHydra> that I get, but why use floppies at all?
[18:54:07] <jmkasunich> not often I admit, but I mess with older stuff
[18:54:09] <LerneaenHydra> when you have usb mass storage or CDs
[18:54:10] <SWPadnos> they're still useful, especially when you have legacy PCs around
[18:54:20] <LerneaenHydra> that's true
[18:54:26] <LerneaenHydra> fortunately I don't
[18:54:32] <SWPadnos> I have machines that have no USB, and booting from CD is very difficult
[18:54:37] <LerneaenHydra> erk
[18:54:43] <jmkasunich> for instance the compile farm has a floppy drive built in, but for CDs I have to open it up and temporarily connect a drive
[18:54:50] <LerneaenHydra> ah, o
[18:54:50] <SWPadnos> dual processor PPro, man. w00t!
[18:55:08] <LerneaenHydra> 1337ness
[18:55:09] <jmkasunich> that is old
[18:55:12] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:55:19] <jmkasunich> I stopped picking that kind out of the dumpster
[18:55:28] <SWPadnos> I still haven't had the chance to try that memory you gave me last year
[18:55:37] <SWPadnos> hey - I paid $5000+ for this computer
[18:55:39] <jmkasunich> my most recent complete computer find is a dual P3
[18:55:43] <SWPadnos> back in '95 or so
[18:56:06] <jmkasunich> I prefer the ones that somebody else paid $5000 for years ago
[18:56:07] <SWPadnos> I even upgraded to PPro Overdrive chips - dual 333MHz
[18:56:13] <LerneaenHydra> I can understand that a dual ppro was very expensize
[18:56:20] <SWPadnos> yeah - I need to figure out how to get on the other side of that equation
[18:56:34] <SWPadnos> the case has a triple redundant PS, and 19 drive bays
[18:56:39] <jmkasunich> wow
[18:56:47] <jmkasunich> how big is it?
[18:56:47] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[18:56:54] <LerneaenHydra> noisy?
[18:56:59] <jmkasunich> sounds like some of the HPs they're scrapping at work
[18:57:00] <SWPadnos> and the motherboard is a Supermicro, with spaces for 12 slots
[18:57:11] <SWPadnos> it's exceedingly noisy
[18:57:15] <jmkasunich> think full tower but 16" wide
[18:57:17] <SWPadnos> full server size, but wider
[18:57:20] <jmkasunich> with casters
[18:57:21] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[18:57:26] <SWPadnos> not quite 16" wide
[18:57:27] <LerneaenHydra> my goodness
[18:57:36] <fenn> triple redundant p/s.. does that mean when it shorts AC mains to 1.8V you're still good?
[18:57:40] <jmkasunich> maybe only 14-15, I didn't have a ruler
[18:57:43] <SWPadnos> http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-Antec_KS_011B_KS_011B_RPP3002
[18:57:51] <LerneaenHydra> two of them can die and it will still run
[18:58:02] <SWPadnos> fenn, nope. it has only one power inlet (foolishly)
[18:58:18] <SWPadnos> right, but only at 300W (it's 900W when they're all functioning)
[18:58:25] <robin_sz> meep?
[18:58:32] <LerneaenHydra> isn't that rather overkill?
[18:58:35] <LerneaenHydra> * LerneaenHydra meeps back
[18:58:40] <SWPadnos> not really
[18:58:43] <SWPadnos> well, maybe
[18:58:49] <LerneaenHydra> a ppro probably deosnt take more than 10-12watts
[18:59:03] <LerneaenHydra> at least I don't think they do
[18:59:12] <SWPadnos> I've been trying to decide if it's worth it to get the SCSI drive array running, or just get an SFF pc with dual SATA drives, and go with that
[18:59:16] <LerneaenHydra> they have rather puny heatsinks with a 40mm screamer IIRC
[18:59:26] <SWPadnos> the overdrive is a bit bigger
[18:59:31] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[18:59:37] <LerneaenHydra> then it may take more power
[18:59:49] <LerneaenHydra> maybe the 20-40 watt range
[19:01:10] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: is there anything else I should do with my computer to test?
[19:01:19] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that would explain why the whole machine takes only ~185 watts or so
[19:01:28] <jmkasunich> I dunno
[19:01:32] <LerneaenHydra> WRT the latency with the line interpolated jerkiness
[19:01:41] <jmkasunich> it seems like the hardware and the RT stuff is OK
[19:02:15] <LerneaenHydra> yes it would seem so
[19:02:25] <LerneaenHydra> and G3 givces a smooth movement
[19:03:04] <LerneaenHydra> however it's worth noting that lowering the traj periood from 10 to 2ms almost removes the problem
[19:03:12] <Jymm> SWPadnos SFF ?
[19:03:18] <SWPadnos> "small form factor"
[19:03:20] <LerneaenHydra> small form factor
[19:03:21] <jmkasunich> small form factor
[19:03:25] <SWPadnos> small form factor
[19:03:25] <LerneaenHydra> haha
[19:03:29] <jmkasunich> small form factor
[19:03:39] <LerneaenHydra> small form factor
[19:03:44] <SWPadnos> got it?
[19:03:52] <Jymm> SWPadnos as a test bos or will turn into production box?
[19:04:01] <SWPadnos> server
[19:04:15] <Jymm> SWPadnos 3Ware card
[19:04:16] <SWPadnos> sff wouldn't work, due to the need for a tape backup
[19:04:20] <jmkasunich> actually thats what I was looking for at the computer store, mini-ITX mobos
[19:04:23] <jmkasunich> they didn't have any
[19:04:30] <SWPadnos> not at a place that has RH4
[19:04:35] <LerneaenHydra> I can't recomend them
[19:04:37] <LerneaenHydra> I have one
[19:04:41] <Jymm> SWPadnos oh, you talking cnc or video?
[19:05:02] <jmkasunich> whats wrong with ITX?
[19:05:25] <LerneaenHydra> the VIA boards are slow, overpriced, and have POS linux drivers
[19:05:27] <SWPadnos> I'd like to get this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16856101809
[19:05:51] <SWPadnos> Jymm, file server and backup system. probably a CVS server as well as other things
[19:06:09] <SWPadnos> it would be really cool to have a dual opteron in such a small case
[19:06:13] <LerneaenHydra> micro-atx (slightly larger, 24.5x24.5) use standard parts and have much better performance/price/linux support
[19:06:15] <SWPadnos> or, really warm, more likely
[19:06:34] <LerneaenHydra> the new opetrons dont take that much power though
[19:06:40] <LerneaenHydra> only somethign like 40-50W
[19:06:48] <Jymm> SWPadnos be leary of heat and bios in those mini systems
[19:06:53] <SWPadnos> only if you spring for the HE or EE versions (much more $)
[19:07:04] <jmkasunich> LH: I'll keep that in mind, I don't need super tiny
[19:07:11] <SWPadnos> the Tdp is 90W or 110W for most of the "normal" opterons
[19:07:19] <jmkasunich> I want to build a system that doesn't need outside air tho
[19:07:23] <robin_sz> ITX nothing ...
[19:07:23] <robin_sz> mini ITX ... expensive for what you get
[19:07:26] <jmkasunich> for use next to the mill
[19:07:39] <LerneaenHydra> the TPD may be that, but they have the same TDP for the whole range of processors
[19:07:46] <SWPadnos> find a small MB, then use the PicoPower PS
[19:08:02] <Jymm> use an old laptop
[19:08:07] <jmkasunich> I was looking at the picopower thing, like it
[19:08:15] <SWPadnos> laptop == shit for RT code
[19:08:18] <robin_sz> I just dont egt the whole small form factor thing .. I mena who has a shop so small that its an issue huh?
[19:08:19] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: laptops suck
[19:08:20] <LerneaenHydra> so the ones that most people end up getting only use around 40-50 Watts
[19:08:35] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: I do
[19:08:36] <Jymm> SWPadnos you said file server, what power do you need for that?
[19:08:37] <SWPadnos> my shop is big enough, but the NEMA box isn't ;)
[19:08:57] <jmkasunich> I want PC, stepper power supply, geckos, and vfd for spindle all in one box
[19:08:57] <SWPadnos> are you suggesting a laptop for a file server?
[19:09:41] <jmkasunich> actually for servers laptops do have some advantages
[19:09:46] <jmkasunich> built in ups for one
[19:09:48] <LerneaenHydra> if you run the steppers on 12V a computer PSU may be worth looking into
[19:09:52] <SWPadnos> not if you want tape backups or RAID
[19:10:02] <LerneaenHydra> vfd?
[19:10:09] <jmkasunich> variable frequency drive
[19:10:20] <jmkasunich> my steppers aren't gonna be running on 12V
[19:10:23] <SWPadnos> I have a 750VA UPS with a spare battery. the average computer will run for a day or so without power
[19:10:32] <robin_sz> I dount anyone runs steppers on 12V
[19:10:36] <jmkasunich> nema 34, geckos, probably 50VDC at 4-5A
[19:10:55] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[19:10:56] <Jymm> SWPadnos they have a RAID laptop
[19:11:22] <jmkasunich> SWP: I dunno if cradek mentioned it or not, but cvs.linuxcnc.org is a laptop
[19:11:24] <SWPadnos> I know, but not a tape backup laptop (and FireWire / USB / ethernet is way too slow)
[19:11:24] <LerneaenHydra> 50VDC @ 4-5A, wouldn't that burn the motors to a crisp? thats 200-250W!
[19:11:49] <SWPadnos> I'm talking about a business grade file server, with data protection, etc (this is for my home office)
[19:11:50] <jmkasunich> nema34 motors are 3.4" diameter, 5" long and weigh several pounds
[19:12:05] <jmkasunich> they only draw that kind of power when spinning
[19:12:14] <Jymm> SWPadnos oh, you mean an office heater!!! =)
[19:12:15] <jmkasunich> and yes, they can deliver 100-200W out the shaft
[19:12:19] <LerneaenHydra> ..
[19:12:25] <SWPadnos> Jymm, exactly ;)
[19:12:27] <LerneaenHydra> thats lots!
[19:12:39] <jmkasunich> 800oz-in or so
[19:12:54] <jmkasunich> its lots compared to sherline size machines
[19:13:02] <jmkasunich> but not enough for bridgeport size machines
[19:13:02] <Jymm> SWPadnos well shit... why didn't you say that in the first place =)
[19:13:18] <LerneaenHydra> and here I was playing with my 100gram 2oz-inch motors
[19:13:25] <LerneaenHydra> (although i will get more powerfull ones later)
[19:13:47] <SWPadnos> Jymm, I thought I did when I said "Dual PPro Overdrive" ;)
[19:14:15] <SWPadnos> so I guess my 112 in-lb (peak) servos aren't in the same class, huh?
[19:14:15] <Jymm> SWPadnos eh, that's a hand warmer, not a room heater =)
[19:14:30] <jmkasunich> lb, not oz?
[19:14:36] <SWPadnos> yes, lb
[19:14:41] <SWPadnos> 28 in-lb continuous
[19:14:46] <SWPadnos> ~4x that peak
[19:14:46] <Jymm> SWPadnos Considered? http://www.3ware.com/
[19:15:12] <SWPadnos> nope - I have a SCSI cage and 3x36G drives, plus a 50/130G tape backup
[19:15:23] <SWPadnos> no need for the IDE stuff
[19:16:02] <Jymm> SWPadnos 36G <--- ancient
[19:16:16] <SWPadnos> SCSI <---- expensive!
[19:16:18] <Jymm> I'm just sayin
[19:16:34] <SWPadnos> I haven't generated 72G of data in my entire life
[19:16:39] <jmkasunich> SWP: are those 10Krpm drives?
[19:16:50] <SWPadnos> I think they're 7200, but they could be 10k
[19:17:03] <jmkasunich> they ones I gave you (or were those 18G)?
[19:17:21] <jmkasunich> or was that someone else completely....
[19:17:27] <SWPadnos> someone else
[19:17:31] <Jymm> I generate 40gb shooting 90 minutes of video!
[19:17:46] <jmkasunich> jymm: not everybody shoots video
[19:17:48] <LerneaenHydra> DV-tape?
[19:17:53] <Jymm> LerneaenHydra yeah
[19:17:54] <SWPadnos> AIT-2
[19:18:06] <SWPadnos> oops - nm
[19:18:09] <Jymm> 2gb shooting stills
[19:18:25] <LerneaenHydra> the terminal says that running fsck is possibl unsafe, is it ok to run?
[19:18:43] <jmkasunich> why are you running fsck?
[19:18:46] <LerneaenHydra> I've got... a bit of data from my camera (pics and videos)
[19:18:51] <LerneaenHydra> power outage recently
[19:19:04] <LerneaenHydra> although I know of the journal in etx3
[19:19:08] <LerneaenHydra> *ext3
[19:19:33] <jmkasunich> every time I've had a power fail or other un-nice shutdown, it did recovery automatically on boot
[19:19:46] <LerneaenHydra> what do you mena by recovery?
[19:19:58] <SWPadnos> video, audio and photos are different. this server is there to protect the designs I make in my consulting business
[19:20:16] <jmkasunich> get a message like "recovery required onext3 filesystem /deb/hda1"
[19:20:26] <LerneaenHydra> oh, Ihavn't had anythign like that
[19:20:39] <LerneaenHydra> maybe the journal was flushed and I got lucky
[19:20:39] <Jymm> SWPadnos offsite storage
[19:20:41] <jmkasunich> and it spends a few seconds fixing up the journals, etc
[19:20:48] <Jymm> SWPadnos I kid you not
[19:20:51] <SWPadnos> Jymm, not for customer data
[19:21:10] <jmkasunich> Jymm: you don't get it - video and photos are competely different
[19:21:12] <SWPadnos> unless you're talking about taking a backup offsite
[19:21:29] <LerneaenHydra> so running fsck is unneeeded? is it safe though?
[19:21:53] <jmkasunich> there's probably an option for fsck that makes it read-only, check but not repair
[19:22:20] <jmkasunich> you can't let it try to do repairs on a mounted filesystem unless you know _exactly_ what you are doing
[19:22:23] <jmkasunich> (I don't)
[19:23:30] <jmkasunich> jymm: when you are talking about source code, or schematics, fpga designs, etc, you can literally put a lifetime's worth of work on a few gig
[19:24:04] <SWPadnos> heh. the largest project I have (of files that I created) is ~800k of assembly code
[19:24:58] <jmkasunich> so big is _far_ less important than reliable
[19:25:27] <LerneaenHydra> maybe a raid-5 setup with some type of weekly external backup?
[19:25:53] <jmkasunich> even raid 1 (mirroring)
[19:26:19] <SWPadnos> daily backup, weekly / monthly / yearly offsite rotation as well, with the yearly tapes being archived
[19:26:31] <jmkasunich> raid5 doesn't waste as much disk space (N+1 instead of 2*N), but for moderate size, who cares
[19:26:34] <SWPadnos> also RAID, for recovery time
[19:26:48] <jmkasunich> raid1 only needs 2 drives, raid 5 needs at least 3
[19:27:04] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: yes, for small stff raid1 is enough
[19:27:52] <Jymm> jmkasunich YOU dont get it... data is data... you dont treat it any differently as you'll never know what usage will be in the future. For a few GB's DVD-R would be perfect archive, not a $800 tape backup.
[19:28:17] <LerneaenHydra> dvd's loose their data very quickly
[19:28:24] <LerneaenHydra> <10 years
[19:28:31] <SWPadnos> there's no optical recording medium that has archival storage lifetime
[19:28:44] <Jymm> neither does any other medium
[19:28:50] <jmkasunich> tape does
[19:28:51] <LerneaenHydra> how are harddisks regarded?
[19:28:54] <SWPadnos> but otherwise, you're right - data is data
[19:28:59] <Jymm> LerneaenHydra ~5 years
[19:28:59] <ValarQ> Jymm: tapes is better in that regard
[19:29:01] <SWPadnos> HD's suck for backup purposes, IMO
[19:29:16] <Jymm> jmkasunich if kept in env controlled area
[19:29:19] <LerneaenHydra> 5 years? why so little?
[19:29:32] <SWPadnos> the data is then subject to not only media lifetime, but also mechanical issues, and having the electrical interface change
[19:30:05] <jmkasunich> data is data, _except_ that when two applications differ by two or three orders of magnitude in size, the approach that is right for one might not be right for the other
[19:30:08] <SWPadnos> I don't think you can get an ST-506 interface any more
[19:30:09] <LerneaenHydra> by harddisk I mean an external harddisk that is off except for the back ups
[19:30:32] <Jymm> tape is voodoo... ppl rely on it far too much without testing restores
[19:30:43] <ValarQ> Jymm: that is very true
[19:30:47] <SWPadnos> makes no difference. the internal drive is still IDE or whatever, and that box better not die
[19:30:49] <LerneaenHydra> well, if you use harddisks you'll have to buy a new one when both the old and new interface exists and transfer
[19:30:59] <Jymm> LerneaenHydra hdd is what I would do. you can even keep a few offsite and rotate them in
[19:31:04] <ValarQ> Jymm: but i don't think the medium makes a very big difference
[19:31:26] <jmkasunich> SWP: can you get a tape drive to read a 20 year old 9-track reel-to-reel tape?
[19:31:27] <LerneaenHydra> ValarQ: as long as it's not optical that is (unless it's pressed)
[19:31:42] <Jymm> ValarQ My biggest gripe is the tape industry hasn't kept up with the HDD
[19:31:50] <ValarQ> LerneaenHydra: i'm thinking of the issue with few backup tests
[19:32:00] <LerneaenHydra> yes, that's true
[19:32:08] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, not now, but there are companies that can transfer data from 9-track to whatever
[19:32:12] <LerneaenHydra> for a real backup yo have to test the media often
[19:32:28] <ValarQ> Jymm: that might be true, but tapes have gotten bigger
[19:32:48] <SWPadnos> though 9-track hasn't been "the thing" for more than 20 years, I think
[19:32:50] <LerneaenHydra> however I do that now (filehash of all files on the media vs all the files on my harddisk when doing an upgrade)
[19:32:54] <Jymm> ValarQ I haven't seen a 300GB uncompressed tape that cost under $1000
[19:33:14] <jmkasunich> somewhere in my boxes of crap I have a tape with the code I wrote in college on a TOPS-20 mainframe
[19:33:34] <SWPadnos> the tapes are cheap, but not the drives ;)
[19:33:35] <ValarQ> Jymm: me neither, but i have seen 250GB uncompressed under that limit
[19:34:23] <Jymm> ValarQ The thing is you could buy 3 hdd's for the cost of one tape, and you need to buy a few tapes.
[19:34:31] <SWPadnos> but if you want a real backup rotation, you need about 10 pieces of media
[19:34:57] <fenn> ohwell there's always time travel!
[19:35:03] <SWPadnos> plus 1 extra every quarter or year
[19:35:10] <ValarQ> Jymm: yeah, but just because everything else has gotten cheaper doesn't mean that there is anything better for backups
[19:35:41] <SWPadnos> multi-hundred-gig tapes are $40-$60 in a box of 10
[19:35:49] <SWPadnos> you don't get that good a deal on hard drives
[19:35:53] <ValarQ> a very large (disks and geographically) raid1 system might be a solution thought :)
[19:36:07] <SWPadnos> with FIOS, sure ;)
[19:36:25] <ValarQ> and some VCS alike filesystem...
[19:36:30] <ValarQ> FIOS?
[19:36:33] <fenn> one on mars, one on ceres.. how precious is your data
[19:36:47] <SWPadnos> Verizon's 40 mbit fiber to the home service :)
[19:36:53] <Jymm> SWPadnos url to these uncompressed multi-hundred gig tapes?
[19:36:57] <ValarQ> oh, sounds like a lot of pun
[19:37:52] <ValarQ> well, it can't be better than my now replaced system, 3 PATA disks in a raid0 system and no backups
[19:38:27] <jmkasunich> thats exactly it
[19:38:28] <ValarQ> the R in raid is for redundant :)
[19:38:42] <jmkasunich> we can talk all day about what is best, but most of us actually have nothing at all
[19:38:52] <LerneaenHydra> :|
[19:38:59] <LerneaenHydra> 3 pata in raid0
[19:39:01] <fenn> i have a stack of cdr's
[19:39:10] <LerneaenHydra> thats like begging for disaster
[19:39:25] <ValarQ> er, yeah
[19:39:28] <SWPadnos> I have a 3-drive SCSI RAID in a hot swap cage, and an AIT-2 tape backup ;)
[19:39:37] <SWPadnos> if only I could install Linux from CD
[19:39:43] <robin_sz> tapes are great
[19:39:50] <ValarQ> i replaced it with a 3 sata raid5 when i got the money
[19:39:51] <robin_sz> the data goes on
[19:39:52] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/LOT-5-New-Sealed-Sony-AIT-SDX3-100C-AIT-3-64K-100-260GB_W0QQitemZ9706205988QQcategoryZ73329QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:39:52] <LerneaenHydra> I have an external harddisk that I do file hashes against very often
[19:40:00] <robin_sz> sometime you can even get it off again
[19:40:01] <ValarQ> SWPadnos: sounds sweet
[19:40:10] <SWPadnos> those are only 100G uncompressed, 230 compressed
[19:40:20] <SWPadnos> err - 260
[19:40:36] <robin_sz> these days I just rsync another remote box from time to time
[19:40:47] <LerneaenHydra> 260 compressed? wth are they talking about, it depends completely upon what it is you're compressing
[19:40:56] <ValarQ> i have some folders which i rsync to another location now and then
[19:40:57] <SWPadnos> yes it does
[19:40:59] <ValarQ> (sourcecode etc.)
[19:41:27] <LerneaenHydra> code compressed well whereas a well compressed video doesnt compress at all
[19:41:35] <LerneaenHydra> (hence the name
[19:41:54] <ValarQ> LerneaenHydra: try lzip :P
[19:41:57] <fenn> thats a dumb way to rate storage
[19:42:03] <Jymm> LerneaenHydra thus why I never use the compressed values
[19:42:21] <LerneaenHydra> sounds like marketspeak
[19:42:26] <fenn> swp those are $250
[19:42:33] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-LTO-Ultrium-3-400-800-GB-Tape-x5-NEW_W0QQitemZ8795660342QQcategoryZ3756QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:42:44] <SWPadnos> it's a lot of 5, so they're $50 each
[19:42:58] <Jymm> SWPadnos: wheres the $60 for 10 of em
[19:43:08] <SWPadnos> $60 each is what I meant
[19:43:23] <SWPadnos> $60 each in qty 10
[19:43:27] <robin_sz> tapes are a WORIYAL sort of medium ...
[19:43:34] <robin_sz> write once
[19:43:43] <robin_sz> readi f you are lucky
[19:43:52] <Jymm> lol
[19:44:04] <Jymm> so fuckign true
[19:44:08] <SWPadnos> in my experience, I've only had perhaps one bad tape
[19:44:25] <SWPadnos> (that was noticed, when something needed restoring)
[19:44:31] <robin_sz> reading from the same drive they were written in, its been OK
[19:44:42] <LerneaenHydra> buy our 100EiB* drives, now for $100
[19:44:42] <SWPadnos> the ecould have been others that would have become problems if a restore had been needed though
[19:44:43] <LerneaenHydra> *uncompressed capacity 100KiB, compressed file is a file filled with a recurring single charachter
[19:44:46] <robin_sz> with multilpe drives .. its been crap
[19:44:53] <Jymm> bad tape, bad firmware on the tape drive/library/robot/ or so many issues
[19:45:19] <robin_sz> the problem is that as density goes up, head alignment becomes a problem
[19:45:34] <robin_sz> with one drive on a aserver, you are pretty much OK
[19:45:43] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/TDK-10-PK-LTO3-ULTRIUM-400-800GB-TAPE-D2406-LTO3_W0QQitemZ3828891849QQcategoryZ3307QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:45:56] <robin_sz> with multiple drives across multiple machiens ... well, there are issues with most formats
[19:46:09] <robin_sz> tape interchange is not something they seem to get right
[19:46:11] <Jymm> $89 300GB hdd from fry's
[19:46:28] <SWPadnos> that was true up to (and somewhat including) DAT4 and DLT
[19:46:36] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: wrt to the jerkiness in line interpolated hilxes, are you going to talk with someone who could help resolve this? or what's going to happen?
[19:46:39] <SWPadnos> it's a lot better now, with AIT and Ultrium
[19:47:30] <jmkasunich> LH: I don't know what is going to happen
[19:47:42] <jmkasunich> unless I can reproduce the problem here, probably nothing
[19:47:58] <jmkasunich> the problem description is just to vague
[19:48:03] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: and if you do reproduce?
[19:48:10] <LerneaenHydra> errr, reproduce it
[19:48:17] <jmkasunich> then I can try to debug
[19:48:20] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[19:48:20] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[19:48:45] <robin_sz> spirals are always fun
[19:48:55] <jmkasunich> can you post your config files (tar up the directory) and the g-code program?
[19:49:04] <LerneaenHydra> ok
[19:49:17] <LerneaenHydra> uh, any particular server that I should put it on?
[19:49:24] <LerneaenHydra> or should I just host it myself?
[19:49:43] <jmkasunich> if its not huge, (under 100K) just mail it to me
[19:49:55] <LerneaenHydra> (I can't access the linux box for an hour or so, im making a disk image)
[19:50:04] <jmkasunich> thats ok
[19:50:07] <LerneaenHydra> just teh stepper config?
[19:50:11] <LerneaenHydra> that's under 100k
[19:50:13] <jmkasunich> whatever config you are using
[19:50:18] <LerneaenHydra> yes, ok
[19:50:25] <LerneaenHydra> nothing else I should send?
[19:50:29] <LerneaenHydra> maybe the program?
[19:50:41] <jmkasunich> yes, the g-code program that causes the problem
[19:50:54] <SWPadnos> wasn't it just spiral.ngc?
[19:50:58] <LerneaenHydra> all programs cause it
[19:51:10] <jmkasunich> I can't guarantee that I'll get to it today (or even this weekend) but I'll try
[19:51:21] <LerneaenHydra> anythign is good
[19:52:10] <Jymm> $0.30 per GB http://www.netaffilia.com/ad/electronics/frys/i/2006/04/21/16483.html
[19:52:33] <SWPadnos> limit 1
[19:52:59] <SWPadnos> $90 each for 400G tapes is a good deal
[19:53:11] <SWPadnos> and one you can't match (yet) with HDs
[19:53:22] <SWPadnos> though there is the $3000 investment in the tape drive to consider ;)
[19:56:15] <rayh-away> rayh-away is now known as rayh
[19:56:51] <Jymm> SWPadnos and have you ever noticed how outdated tape drives become anymore?
[19:57:54] <SWPadnos> Jymm, not really. you can still buy a new DAT4 drive. those were introduced ~10 years ago
[19:58:09] <Jymm> I've seen barnd new still factory sealed tape drives at the surplus stores.
[19:58:36] <SWPadnos> they're not "new and exciting" for long, but for legacy compatibility, they're a lot better than hard drives
[19:59:05] <Jymm> I can still use a MFM hdd if need be
[19:59:13] <Jymm> (scarry as that is)
[19:59:30] <SWPadnos> can you buy an ST-506 card, or do you just have a really old PC that still works?
[19:59:47] <Jymm> still works
[20:00:02] <SWPadnos> (oh, and MFM/RLL drives were only usable with the controller that formatted them usually - that's why IDE was invented)
[20:00:45] <SWPadnos> but anyway. we can go on about backup methods almost as long as "Estop and what it means to me" ;)
[20:05:17] <Jymm> heh... I have (had) an 8bit scsi card around here somewhere =)
[20:05:27] <Jymm> heh... I have (had) an 8bit ISA scsi card around here somewhere =)
[20:05:42] <SWPadnos> I think I still have one as well. it came with my 2x SCSI CD-Rom
[20:07:11] <Jymm> What I'd love is the archivalness (?) of photographic film with the digital scanning, sorta like barcode
[20:15:04] <Jymm> SWPadnos meant to ask you, do you play with AVR's at all? like the 2940's ?
[20:15:15] <LerneaenHydra> SWPadnos: what do you mean wrt estop?
[20:17:28] <jmkasunich> what he means is that every person has a different idea of what the proper estop circuit is, and we can discuss it all day without ever agreeing
[20:18:25] <LerneaenHydra> ah, ok. I'd better not open that can of worms then
[20:18:41] <SWPadnos> ding! jmk wins one point
[20:18:54] <SWPadnos> Jymm, yes, I use AVRs a lot, but never a 2940
[20:20:23] <Jymm> SWPadnos just the megas?
[20:22:25] <SWPadnos> I don't recognize the 2940 model number
[20:22:33] <SWPadnos> I use the "normal" and megas
[20:31:06] <Jymm> SWPadnos AT90S2313 (my bad)
[20:31:19] <Jymm> 2343
[20:34:36] <SWPadnos> ok. I've used the 2313 before, and the 2343 is the one with analog, right?
[20:37:29] <Jymm> SWPadnos Hey, I couldn't remember the PN, remember =) What I was windering is what you thought of them, like when would I be pushing their limits
[20:38:58] <SWPadnos> they're my favorite 8-bit microcontroller
[20:40:15] <Jymm> SWPadnos what was the most you've done with them?
[20:41:06] <SWPadnos> remember that 800k project I mentioned earlier? ;)
[20:42:35] <Jymm> SWPadnos exploding stuff?
[20:42:52] <SWPadnos> power supply controllers
[20:43:08] <SWPadnos> I've used several chips, from the 90S1200 to the Mega128
[20:43:44] <Jymm> SWPadnos you ever looked at the BASCOM-AVR ?
[20:43:51] <SWPadnos> nope
[20:44:02] <Jymm> SWPadnos BASIC compiler for AVR's
[20:44:16] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: what is your mail adress?
[20:44:19] <SWPadnos> everything I've donw so far is in assembler, though the big project may be converted to C soon
[20:44:54] <Jymm> SWPadnos Oh, ok. I dont' know C, so I thought I'd try my hand at the BASIC compiler
[20:45:10] <Jymm> Ok I haven't touched C in decades
[20:45:21] <SWPadnos> if I wanted to use a HLL, I'd use C, so I never bothered looking at the basic options
[20:46:14] <Jymm> SWPadnos Well shit... If I have to (re) learn C, might as well be on a uC
[20:46:38] <SWPadnos> there's a gcc for the AVR
[20:47:04] <jmkasunich> LerneaenHydra: did you get it? (I sent it privately)
[20:47:11] <cradek> nobody ever regrets learning C well
[20:47:16] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: yep
[20:48:14] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: there, should be send now
[20:48:36] <Jymm> cradek no regrets, just commitment to it along with 90,000 other things =)
[20:49:19] <cradek> so if my new espresso maker says it makes 6 cups, is it bad to put that all in my regular coffee mug and drink it?
[20:49:38] <SWPadnos> not not not not at at at all all all
[20:49:50] <cradek> it sure is good
[20:49:58] <jmkasunich> LH: got the config, is the g-code program in there?
[20:50:02] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: just look at SWPadnos line to see what happens
[20:50:13] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: *headsmack* sorry, forgot that
[20:50:43] <SWPadnos> spiral.ngc, or one of the loop things we did?
[20:51:03] <LerneaenHydra> spiral will work as well
[20:51:04] <Jymm> eat an orange to get rid of the caffine shakes
[20:51:10] <Jymm> instant cure
[20:51:33] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: you know how I was talking about the jerkiness in motion before?
[20:51:34] <SWPadnos> eat coffee beans to get rid of that orange flavor
[20:51:36] <cradek> I think my beans are decaf but I'm not sure
[20:51:57] <Jymm> cradek green label on the bag?
[20:52:07] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: yes, I'm happy to see jmk is going to look at it so I don't have to :-)
[20:52:17] <cradek> Jymm: they're in a jar, the bag is long gone
[20:52:24] <Jymm> heh
[20:52:39] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: I recorded a video of the effect if you want to see (mpeg4)
[20:52:47] <jmkasunich> I wonder what is worse, powering the drives while the mobo is unpowered, or powering the mobo while the drives are unpowered?
[20:52:55] <cradek> LerneaenHydra: cool
[20:53:05] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: interested?
[20:53:13] <cradek> yeah is it online somewhere?
[20:53:38] <LerneaenHydra> cradek: ftp://basic:basic@
[20:53:44] <LerneaenHydra> temp5.avi
[20:53:51] <LerneaenHydra> root dir
[20:54:03] <LerneaenHydra> pr0n.zip is not what one thinks it is ;)
[20:54:29] <cradek> are the other temps for me too?
[20:54:40] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, I'd bet that powering the drives with the MB off would be detrimental more often than the other way around
[20:54:40] <LerneaenHydra> no, but you can download them if you want
[20:54:47] <LerneaenHydra> other random stuff I've done
[20:55:32] <Jymm> old skool use to say power up ext devices before mobo
[20:55:39] <cradek> that's a good video
[20:55:49] <cradek> I bet the first thing jmk will do is plot the velocity in halscope
[20:57:27] <LerneaenHydra> jmkasunich: sent the gcode now
[20:58:01] <cradek> also I'd like to know how many traj periods it takes your machine to accel from stop to full speed, I bet it's not very many
[20:58:14] <LerneaenHydra> no, it's not many
[20:58:31] <LerneaenHydra> accel is 500 and maxvel is 7.5, and i have scale at 200
[20:58:52] <cradek> inches?
[20:58:55] <LerneaenHydra> mm
[20:59:19] <LerneaenHydra> I'm running the motor naked (unconnected to anything)
[20:59:35] <cradek> that's a pretty high accel
[20:59:55] <LerneaenHydra> the motor is run sub-critically and unconnected so it works
[21:00:13] <Jymm> naked == cover removed. Man, I was wondering how you were doing that?! lol
[21:00:28] <cradek> I think that's .015 seconds of accel, which is ~ the traj period
[21:00:34] <LerneaenHydra> hmm
[21:00:42] <LerneaenHydra> should I test accel at 100 or so?
[21:00:45] <jmkasunich> maxvel = 7.5 and accel is 500? that means zero to full speed = 0.015 seconds
[21:00:51] <jmkasunich> (cradek is faster with the math)
[21:00:58] <cradek> blending will be terrible in this case
[21:01:07] <jmkasunich> IMO that accel is just plain too high
[21:01:14] <LerneaenHydra> that could be the cause of the jerkiness
[21:01:21] <LerneaenHydra> thats the defailt value
[21:01:31] <LerneaenHydra> in stepper_mm.ini
[21:01:43] <cradek> maybe that value can make sense on a higher speed machine?
[21:01:58] <LerneaenHydra> hmm, that's true
[21:02:21] <jmkasunich> I just checked stepper_mm.ini
[21:02:27] <LerneaenHydra> I'll test lowering it
[21:02:30] <jmkasunich> maxaccel is 500, and maxvel is 30.48
[21:02:38] <jmkasunich> dunno where 30.48 came from
[21:02:48] <cradek> that's 1.2"
[21:02:48] <jmkasunich> but that works out to 0.060 seconds zero to full speed
[21:02:50] <LerneaenHydra> what?
[21:02:55] <LerneaenHydra> 30.48?
[21:03:11] <LerneaenHydra> in stepper_mm.ini?
[21:03:13] <jmkasunich> yes
[21:03:32] <jmkasunich> in both the traj section and the axis sections
[21:04:05] <cradek> yes that's what's in the sample config in the release
[21:04:06] <LerneaenHydra> are you sure you've opened the right file?
[21:04:14] <cradek> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/configs/stepper/stepper_mm.ini?rev=;only_with_tag=v2_0_branch
[21:04:17] <LerneaenHydra> aha, yes in the defaukt
[21:04:21] <LerneaenHydra> *default
[21:04:25] <LerneaenHydra> I though you mean my file
[21:04:28] <cradek> ah
[21:04:36] <cradek> so you reduced your vel but not accels proportionally
[21:04:41] <LerneaenHydra> exactly
[21:04:52] <LerneaenHydra> the load will still be the same on the motor
[21:04:53] <jmkasunich> you said "thats the default value" so I went to see the default
[21:04:56] <cradek> I bet when you put some mass on that motor, it won't be able to accel like that
[21:05:02] <LerneaenHydra> no of course not
[21:05:16] <LerneaenHydra> ah, accel is default, but not vel
[21:05:32] <jmkasunich> the defaults (both inch and mm) work out to zero to max speed in 0.060 seconds
[21:05:42] <cradek> maybe try accel of 100
[21:05:45] <LerneaenHydra> ok, so I should test something like that
[21:05:54] <LerneaenHydra> yeah, ok. i'll test that
[21:06:24] <cradek> that's still only 6 traj periods, but much better than 1
[21:07:44] <LerneaenHydra> it's still somewhat erratic
[21:07:46] <LerneaenHydra> better though
[21:08:09] <LerneaenHydra> should I change the traj period to maybe 2ms instead of 10?
[21:08:16] <LerneaenHydra> as well
[21:08:43] <cradek> jmkasunich: did you see the earlier discussion about the traj thread? it doesn't show anything in halcmd show thread
[21:09:10] <SWPadnos> it has nothing running in it
[21:09:21] <SWPadnos> the change before was due to a change in the base_period
[21:09:34] <cradek> ahh
[21:09:41] <cradek> I didn't know LH changed that too
[21:10:05] <SWPadnos> remember - there was a problem with the setting at 1.5ms (maybe it was 0.15 by accident), so he changed the base period to 20 us
[21:10:20] <cradek> I wonder if we're getting any smoothing from the cubic subinterpolator then
[21:10:26] <LerneaenHydra> yes but that wasn't the factor that fixed it
[21:10:49] <SWPadnos> just pointing out that two things changed, not just one
[21:11:04] <jmkasunich> cradek: the traj htread is empty (should probably comment it out and not even create it)
[21:11:16] <jmkasunich> the original code ran the tp in the servo thread, every Nth time
[21:11:21] <LerneaenHydra> with the base period at 20 and 2ms as traj it is semi-smooth, but with base period as 20 and 10ms as traj (I changed it back *afterwards*) it got all jerky again
[21:11:26] <jmkasunich> N = traj_period / servo_period
[21:11:37] <cradek> how is tp run now?
[21:11:41] <LerneaenHydra> tp?
[21:11:52] <LerneaenHydra> in that video I sent at 10ms
[21:11:56] <jmkasunich> LH, he's talking to me
[21:11:59] <LerneaenHydra> currently at 2ms
[21:12:09] <jmkasunich> cradek: its in the servo thread, like before
[21:12:22] <cradek> ok
[21:12:25] <jmkasunich> but it might need looked at
[21:12:36] <cradek> it does a tp cycle every servo period then?
[21:12:45] <jmkasunich> its not called explicitly by a divide by N, its called with the cubic interpolators go empty
[21:13:08] <cradek> ok I have no clue how that works
[21:13:55] <LerneaenHydra> now that i've lowered the accel it doesn't jerk as erratically, however it still jerks 100µs or so, although it is more smooth
[21:14:12] <jmkasunich> emc2/src/motion/control.c line 1552
[21:14:57] <jmkasunich> that and the surrounding code is essentially copied from emc1
[21:15:22] <jmkasunich> the while should only be true every Nth time thru
[21:15:53] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmmmmm
[21:17:54] <cradek> cubic.c:425
[21:19:28] <cradek> so if LH wants more TP runs, he needs to decrease SERVO_PERIOD not TRAJ_PERIOD?
[21:19:35] <cradek> and he can see how much is safe using halcmd show thread
[21:19:58] <giacus> Jymmmmmm: is seems there's a nice avr support in linux, but I never try it pratically ..
[21:20:12] <giacus> consider to switch to it
[21:20:13] <jmkasunich> line 425 = end of file?
[21:20:15] <giacus> http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/curves.jpg
[21:20:19] <giacus> :D
[21:20:26] <cradek> eh crap
[21:20:33] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: Loads of avr support under nix, just have to learn C is all.
[21:20:41] <giacus> nice
[21:20:58] <jmkasunich> are we looking at the same file?
[21:21:02] <cradek> line 336
[21:21:22] <cradek> yeah vim always bites me in the ass when I use C-g to see the line number like vi
[21:22:00] <cradek> that's apparently the condition that makes the tp run again
[21:22:30] <jmkasunich> it is?
[21:22:38] <jmkasunich> then the code in control.c is just plain fscked?
[21:22:56] <cradek> I'm not claiming to understand it
[21:23:02] <jmkasunich> ditto
[21:23:35] <jmkasunich> start at control.c line 1547, and read (the comments mostly)
[21:24:06] <jmkasunich> the contents of the while block should run at the traj rate
[21:24:24] <jmkasunich> the rest of it (starting at "there is data in the interpolators" ) runs at the servo rate
[21:24:36] <cradek> ok
[21:24:44] <jmkasunich> I guess that needs instrumented to see if thats what really happens
[21:25:58] <giacus> jmkasunich: how the work is going ? I read something in the mailing list about qemu/vmware
[21:26:12] <giacus> are you building a linux cluster ?
[21:26:34] <jmkasunich> the compile farm is sort of a cluster (except that they don't talk to each other)
[21:26:49] <jmkasunich> I gave up on using qemu, after wasting a whole weekend on it
[21:27:08] <giacus> does it work fine ?
[21:27:39] <giacus> a bit slow, if I understood well ..
[21:28:14] <jmkasunich> more than a bit
[21:28:16] <giacus> wmware server should be free now
[21:28:27] <giacus> but I've no idea if it could help
[21:28:33] <jmkasunich> if my base system was a couple GHz I would try it
[21:28:42] <giacus> nice
[21:29:00] <jmkasunich> but its not
[21:29:07] <jmkasunich> I have a dual P3-600
[21:29:37] <jmkasunich> I was hoping it could emulate four 200MHz Pentium's and be at least as fast as the real hardware
[21:29:39] <jmkasunich> but its not
[21:29:47] <giacus> mmm
[21:29:59] <giacus> was a nice idea
[21:45:34] <LerneaenHydra> g'night all
[21:45:46] <SWPadnos> night LH
[21:50:19] <giacus> http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/in_class.jpg
[21:50:21] <giacus> lol
[21:54:08] <jmkasunich> heh
[21:55:44] <Jymmmmmm> anyone remember those holders that held 5 pieces of chalk at a time?
[21:56:48] <jmkasunich> for making music lines on a board?
[21:56:49] <cradek> that's bogus, a C programmer would have written i=0; i<500; i++
[21:58:00] <Jymmmmmm> jmkasunich: or for writing 500 times/5 on the chalkboard =)
[21:58:13] <SWPadnos> a c++ programmer would have written (for int i=0;1<500;++i);
[21:58:27] <SWPadnos> err - except for the misplaced parens ;)
[21:58:47] <giacus> :)
[21:59:00] <giacus> Jymmmmmm: http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/marianoitaliano.jpg
[21:59:04] <giacus> haha
[21:59:44] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: Is that a pic of you?
[22:00:23] <giacus> not really
[22:00:25] <giacus> :D
[22:01:02] <Jymmmmmm> giacus =)
[22:11:53] <skunkorks> quiet.
[22:12:44] <robin_sz> an observation or an insruction?
[22:12:44] <skunkorks> * skunkorks ment skunkworks :)
[22:14:53] <skunkorks> hey robin - how is it going?
[22:15:03] <skunkorks> mostly an observation
[22:15:28] <robin_sz> ok
[22:15:42] <robin_sz> so busy these days
[22:15:51] <robin_sz> nice to chill on IRC for an evening
[22:16:22] <SWPadnos> skunkorks, you can change your name with /nick SkunkWorks
[22:16:36] <skunkorks> yes - it is nice to remember I now don't need an irc client installed to get on the channel
[22:16:43] <robin_sz> robin_sz is now known as skunkworks
[22:16:46] <skunkworks> hah
[22:17:04] <skunkorks> :)
[22:17:11] <skunkworks> skunkworks is now known as robin_sz
[22:17:25] <skunkorks> skunkorks is now known as SkunkWorks
[22:17:28] <SkunkWorks> thanks
[22:17:46] <giacus> hello robin_sz
[22:17:51] <giacus> hi guys
[22:17:53] <robin_sz> hi
[22:18:05] <robin_sz> tonights topic is:
[22:18:15] <robin_sz> lets talk the usual crap ;)
[22:18:19] <SkunkWorks> I ground another carbide into a engraving tool (wanted a sharper tip than the one I made yesterday) and promply dropped it and broke the tip right off.
[22:18:29] <robin_sz> heh
[22:18:44] <robin_sz> you can buy engraving cutter quite cheaply
[22:19:05] <SkunkWorks> yeh - but I wanted one this weekend and didn't think ahead.
[22:19:07] <cradek> "cool, a 000 center drill ... crap"
[22:19:30] <SkunkWorks> yep
[22:19:36] <Jymmmmmm> SkunkWorks like with a .01 flat on the end?
[22:19:40] <Jymmmmmm> "
[22:19:45] <robin_sz> theres a lot of data on engraving cutters
[22:20:18] <robin_sz> lots of sharpening intrcutions out there
[22:20:25] <robin_sz> engravers are always tinkering
[22:20:33] <giacus> are you talking about V bit ?
[22:20:38] <robin_sz> nah
[22:20:47] <giacus> oh ..
[22:20:55] <giacus> ok
[22:21:06] <Jymmmmmm> tooling geometry never ceases to amaze me
[22:23:15] <robin_sz> for some reason, I now have two 1000 litre vats of grinding fluid in my workshop
[22:23:35] <Jymmmmmm> robin_sz do you even have a grinder?
[22:23:38] <robin_sz> nope
[22:23:43] <Jymmmmmm> oh man...
[22:23:58] <SkunkWorks> I had a better link yesterday - I pretty much made one of these http://www.antaresinc.net/EngravPage.html
[22:24:02] <robin_sz> useful stuff though
[22:24:12] <SkunkWorks> "standard cutter"
[22:24:31] <robin_sz> we use it for water testing tanks ... its got a rust preventative in it
[22:24:39] <SkunkWorks> had a better link yesterday
[22:24:45] <SkunkWorks> logger_aj: bookmark
[22:24:45] <SkunkWorks> See
[22:25:24] <robin_sz> SkunkWorks: notice how it os not symmetrical
[22:25:51] <skunkorks> well that didn't work the way I wanted it to :)
[22:25:55] <robin_sz> SkunkWorks: notice how it is not symmetrical
[22:26:31] <skunkorks> right - I cut radial releif
[22:26:43] <skunkorks> it should only cut on the leading edge
[22:26:47] <skunkorks> if I did it right
[22:27:03] <robin_sz> the govenrment here vut tax releif. dame thng I guess
[22:27:06] <robin_sz> same
[22:27:07] <skunkorks> it was by hand - you don't want to know
[22:28:13] <giacus> Jymmmmmm: http://www.infodelta.it/foto/fresa-legno.MPG
[22:29:00] <giacus> on wood its pretty simple
[22:29:14] <robin_sz> BUY MY LASER
[22:29:20] <giacus> on alu/metal should be a bit hard
[22:29:21] <skunkorks> I guess the one I made yesterday worked pretty well - just had too big of a flat on the end
[22:29:24] <robin_sz> * robin_sz tries subliminal marketing
[22:29:35] <robin_sz> YOU NEED A LASER
[22:29:56] <robin_sz> GET A LASER, GET LAID
[22:30:06] <giacus> * giacus want a laser too !
[22:30:15] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ferranti-450W-CO2-laser_W0QQitemZ7611858229QQcategoryZ26237QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[22:30:21] <giacus> * giacus for free
[22:30:24] <giacus> hehe
[22:30:41] <Jymmmmmm> I'm looking at a 25W, 10yr old laser engraver right now, just not sure about it
[22:31:17] <Jymmmmmm> he's asking $7000, but might offer $4000
[22:31:44] <robin_sz> make?
[22:31:56] <Jymmmmmm> epilog summit, mfg 1996
[22:32:06] <robin_sz> good make
[22:32:43] <Jymmmmmm> he told me a mirror was oxidized and replaced, but when I called T/S they have no record of that repair.
[22:32:53] <robin_sz> so?
[22:33:04] <Jymmmmmm> they do have record of a belt,motor, and bearigns replaced in 2001
[22:33:22] <Jymmmmmm> Well, how did they get the replacement mirror
[22:33:24] <robin_sz> mirrors and lenses are a consumable
[22:33:38] <giacus> uhm
[22:33:38] <robin_sz> millions of places sell them
[22:33:51] <giacus> also old parts ?
[22:34:02] <robin_sz> no point, new stuff is cheap enough
[22:34:18] <robin_sz> laser II-V1 are the biggest
[22:35:25] <robin_sz> http://www.ii-vi.com/
[22:35:51] <Jymmmmmm> I have no power meter, and it's $1500 for a replacement tube, so I really have no gauge as to the life left in the machien.
[22:36:56] <Jymmmmmm> I'd be pissed if it went POOF a week later
[22:38:23] <Jymmmmmm> manual focus, and no air assist. TS said there's no way to retrofit air into it either,
[22:40:25] <giacus> robin_sz: my cousin is always cutting steel by hands :(
[22:40:35] <giacus> he's building beds
[22:40:57] <giacus> with the plasma cutter
[22:41:21] <giacus> should be ready with the cnc table in 3-4 week
[22:41:39] <giacus> he's doind very nice jobs by hands
[22:41:59] <giacus> I've to ask him or some photos
[22:43:13] <giacus> has been very busy in these latest months :(
[22:44:51] <giacus> steels beds here are going a lot
[22:45:03] <giacus> old style steel beds
[22:47:23] <giacus> http://www.vitaliletti.com/
[22:47:44] <giacus> similar to that
[22:55:49] <giacus> Jymmmmmm: that could be a nice business
[22:56:18] <giacus> not difficult at all, maybe
[22:56:31] <giacus> steel and wood
[23:01:30] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: no place for such a large laser, much less the supply
[23:04:01] <skunkorks> logger_aj: bookmark
[23:04:01] <skunkorks> See
[23:04:03] <fenn> pff lasers are so 1970's
[23:04:10] <fenn> laserless is the future!
[23:04:20] <giacus> Jymmmmmm: a plasma cutter could be enough for that
[23:04:26] <giacus> and cheap
[23:04:41] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: I 'll stick with a laser
[23:05:47] <giacus> laser is nice, what I doubt if is cheap too
[23:06:06] <giacus> or, better
[23:06:58] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: I've seen what a small (<250Watt) laser is capable of, and I'm happy with the results.
[23:07:23] <giacus> could be
[23:07:52] <giacus> I'm not so updated to latest tecnology progress
[23:08:07] <giacus> I just know laser tecnology as very expensive
[23:08:37] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: Yes, not everything can be had in a surplus store
[23:08:43] <giacus> that mean fo me, also the final product should be very expensive, of course..
[23:08:52] <giacus> understood
[23:09:08] <giacus> you're looking at surplus store
[23:10:58] <giacus> what I doubt is the cost to mintain it after
[23:11:11] <giacus> of course I've not experience about t as robin_sz
[23:11:26] <giacus> its just my point of view
[23:11:36] <giacus> so, not consider it at 100 %
[23:12:17] <giacus> do not
[23:16:29] <giacus> robin_sz: have a great experience about laser tecnology
[23:16:40] <giacus> however, he use it in a factory use
[23:17:10] <giacus> I meant for an hobbist, or a people who want to start a business without spent a lot
[23:17:22] <giacus> alternative tecnology could be good
[23:17:29] <giacus> that's my experience
[23:18:49] <giacus> what I learn in these years is: very often what cost more inst necessarly a better solution
[23:19:15] <giacus> as example, linux i free and is better than windoze
[23:19:18] <giacus> for me
[23:20:03] <giacus> but if you can get a laser machine for a nice price, without issues, its nice.
[23:20:26] <giacus> let me know, i'm interested in too
[23:21:47] <Jymmmmmm> giacus: http://www.gccworld.com/application.php?PROD_TYPE=laser_engraver
[23:23:02] <giacus> nice, nice
[23:23:11] <giacus> no doubt
[23:39:55] <SWPadnos> hiya djpharoah
[23:40:14] <djpharoah> hey.
[23:41:16] <giacus> ?!
[23:41:39] <SWPadnos> I was chatting with him in a different channel, and suggested he check this one out
[23:41:47] <SWPadnos> he's a mechanical engineering student
[23:41:49] <giacus> oh.. okk
[23:42:25] <giacus> wich channel ? :P
[23:42:51] <SWPadnos> #kororaa
[23:51:03] <Jymmmmmm> #Evilness
[23:51:11] <giacus> too ?
[23:51:14] <giacus> haha
[23:51:45] <giacus> seriously, nice distro
[23:51:49] <giacus> I like it
[23:52:26] <giacus> for what my opinion can be assumed :)
[23:53:37] <giacus> well, mr bush called ms prodi from his air one plane to congrats with him about the victory
[23:54:08] <giacus> mr berlusca says he will never congrats with mr prodi
[23:54:22] <giacus> but we have an hope yet ..
[23:54:57] <giacus> andreotti could be the next president of 'senato' in parliament
[23:55:16] <giacus> of course.. you don't know who is andreotti ..
[23:55:38] <giacus> since FI losted the elections
[23:56:11] <giacus> and mafia don't have any connection to the goverment more
[23:56:35] <giacus> andreotti could be the next wire to connect it
[23:57:26] <giacus> its as an HAL component
[23:57:29] <giacus> :)
[23:57:35] <giacus> but work bad :/
[23:57:44] <giacus> need to be debugged