#emc | Logs for 2006-04-11

[00:03:10] <jepler> cradek: those are japanese characters .. I can't say anything more than that.
[00:03:18] <cradek> yeah, me too
[00:03:35] <cradek> with the rest, I have some idea that it's right
[00:03:39] <jepler> I have a feeling that those underlined characters in the menu are wrong
[00:04:02] <jepler> I think the File menu should look like "<japanese chars> (F)" with the F underlined
[00:05:43] <cradek> the underlined character on file is "fu"
[00:06:01] <cradek> so it's possible someone might use that as the shortcut?
[00:06:52] <cradek> but the rest looks even fishier doesn't it
[00:13:50] <cradek> the underlined letter on "scripts" is "ku" but alt-k doesn't bring it up
[00:14:04] <cradek> so the whole thing is probably completely wrong.
[00:52:16] <Jymmm> You'll need to find someone with a Kanji keyboard =)
[00:52:56] <Jymmm> you cant copy n paste the symbols can you?
[00:55:09] <cradek> copy and paste into what?
[00:55:30] <Jymmm> anything
[00:56:13] <Jymmm> When I work with Kanji, I cna copy n paste the symbols between apps.
[00:56:29] <cradek> oh I don't care about that, I just want to know if it's displaying right (and I'm pretty sure it isn't)
[00:57:10] <Jymmm> okey dokey
[00:57:53] <cradek> do you read it at all?
[00:58:21] <Jymmm> No, just translate it back and forth to/from jp/en
[00:58:40] <Jymmm> or chinese/en
[00:58:55] <Jymmm> (mandarin)
[01:18:32] <Jymmm> are these two different sizes on each end? http://cgi.ebay.com/10-NEW-11-64-X-3-16-SHK-DOUBLE-BALL-END-MILL-2-FL-446_W0QQitemZ7605451488QQcategoryZ58222QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[01:19:02] <cradek> Jymmm: doubt it - that would be really unusual
[01:19:23] <cradek> it says in the text they're 11/64
[01:19:40] <Jymmm> x 3/16"
[01:26:40] <jmkasunich> 11/64 cutting diameter, 3/16 shank
[01:26:50] <jmkasunich> 11/64" X 3/16" SHK
[01:26:56] <jmkasunich> shk - shank
[02:21:42] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[03:06:08] <cradek> hi david, did you ever get all those updates over your dialup?
[03:08:49] <|Magician|> yeah, I finally got them
[03:09:33] <|Magician|> It was a time.....even had a power supply go out on my computer that I was running Ubuntu on
[03:09:54] <cradek> ouch! doubt ubuntu caused that though...
[03:10:16] <|Magician|> no telling where that one came from
[03:11:02] <|Magician|> but, I finally got it all updated and installed last night
[03:11:13] <|Magician|> It looks pretty good
[03:11:48] <cradek> great
[03:11:54] <cradek> got emc working then?
[03:12:03] <|Magician|> Maybe my drivers will be in tomorrow, I'd like to see it work
[03:12:42] <|Magician|> I have just ran it on demo so far
[03:13:08] <cradek> great
[03:13:12] <|Magician|> I am wondering how well I am going to be able to get it to work on my Lathe
[03:13:35] <cradek> depends what you want to do...
[03:14:01] <cradek> lathe support is pretty new, at the cnc workshop next month we will be working on it a lot.
[03:14:23] <|Magician|> I think it will work alright, it will just take a little work to get it all working i'm sure
[03:14:54] <cradek> probably right.
[03:15:03] <|Magician|> yeah, threading is a big thing
[03:15:27] <cradek> threading is in its infancy, but it's there, expect more soon
[03:15:54] <cradek> did you see the photos of the first thread I cut with emc?
[03:16:18] <|Magician|> Yeah, I think its going to work out well
[03:16:24] <|Magician|> no I havent
[03:16:51] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/thread-cutting.jpg
[03:16:56] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/thread-done.jpg
[03:17:00] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/thread-check.jpg
[03:18:25] <cradek> my spindle motor was too wimpy to finish cutting it, but it's a great proof of concept I think
[03:19:22] <|Magician|> What kind of machine?
[03:20:06] <cradek> it's a tabletop mill that I fitted with a spindle encoder so I could pretend it's a lathe to test my threading code
[03:20:18] <cradek> here is a picture of the setup: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/lathe-setup.jpg
[03:21:52] <|Magician|> I thought I was looking at the picture sideways when I first seem the cutting threads jpg.
[03:22:07] <cradek> haha nope
[03:22:18] <cradek> it's the worst lathe ever, isn't it
[03:22:39] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/sim/ (axis.ini mini.ini tkemc.ini sim.ini): moved new arrangement of sim dir from v2.0 branch to HEAD - one ini file per GUI, so you can try them all
[03:22:39] <|Magician|> The machine I am outfitting was already an NC
[03:22:47] <|Magician|> Ha Ha, it works
[03:23:38] <cradek> barely, but yes it works
[03:23:58] <cradek> it definitely shows the threading part of emc is sound
[03:24:08] <|Magician|> that will open the door to ridgid tapping as well
[03:24:25] <cradek> yes at the cnc workshop there will be equipment that will allow me to work on tapping.
[03:24:34] <cradek> I think we're all excited about it
[03:24:56] <|Magician|> I seen on the web site where there were several that went last year
[03:25:27] <cradek> yes, I think it was popular; I didn't go but I will this time
[03:28:19] <cradek> well I'm off to bed, goodnight all
[03:28:32] <cradek> new emc2, emc2-dev, emc2-axis packages in the ubuntu repository
[03:28:43] <cradek> I think jmkasunich will be sending an email about them soon
[03:28:52] <|Magician|> Have a good one
[03:29:03] <jmkasunich> no, cradek will be sending it
[03:41:16] <Jymmm> "LETS GET MIKEY! Yeah, he'll send it.... he'll send anything!"
[03:48:18] <_terr> I would like to ask ppl's opinions on sherline. Is there any reason I should _not_ but from them?
[03:49:03] <_terr> most of the stuff will probably be light weight adn light duty - and I can buy heavy duty stuff from China for less.
[03:49:28] <_terr> but the thing about sherline is that it seems to have accuracy and I don't need a fork lift to move it.
[03:50:14] <_terr> I want to build an English wheel for my brother tna that will have 3" diameter by 3" wide solid steel 4140 rollers and an 8" roller too. Might be a bit much for a sherline.
[03:51:59] <_terr> I can buy a 480 KG knee mill for $1400 bux. The sherline mill costs this much.
[05:00:27] <A-L-P-H-A> _terr, sherline great for alu... not steel.
[05:00:53] <A-L-P-H-A> great for model making... not real stuff in my opinion
[05:08:21] <Jymmm> FYI... china stuff is not accurate or precise.
[05:12:31] <A-L-P-H-A> nope... needs a lot of TLC to make work well
[05:12:44] <Jymmm> lots of $$$
[05:14:24] <A-L-P-H-A> still cheaper than buying precision stuff direct.
[05:14:33] <A-L-P-H-A> so Jymmm, what's new?
[05:19:13] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: same old shit... damn logistics!
[05:20:55] <Jymmm> sometimes I HATE being in SFO area... I can always find everything I need in SoCal!
[05:26:37] <A-L-P-H-A> SFO?
[05:26:41] <A-L-P-H-A> I thought you were SFBA.
[05:27:14] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm.
[05:27:22] <Jymmm> Same Diff... the cost of land in this area is so high, that many many places dont stock on the shelf many things.
[05:27:37] <A-L-P-H-A> Oh. I see.
[05:27:39] <A-L-P-H-A> that sucks.
[05:27:52] <A-L-P-H-A> I live around Toronto... Canada's largest city... we have tons of shit.
[05:27:53] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[05:27:55] <A-L-P-H-A> luckily
[05:28:46] <Jymmm> There's one majot plastics distributor that has distributions centers around the country; the one in this area doens't even stock .22" acrylic (only .25") but their LA office does and it's half the cost.
[05:29:10] <Jymmm> shit like that
[05:29:39] <A-L-P-H-A> hahahha
[05:29:42] <A-L-P-H-A> why do you want .22"
[05:29:50] <A-L-P-H-A> got pics of what you've been making lately?
[05:30:11] <Jymmm> oh, and shit like metal products (stock, flat, ball bearings) rare to find... hard to get brass even.
[05:30:28] <Jymmm> .22" acrylic to fit in a .25" slot =)
[05:30:45] <A-L-P-H-A> heh
[05:31:50] <Jymmm> I found a really nice place in LA that will let you bring in you ballscrews and preload them on their benches. But if you need sample sized balls, you have to buy an expensive kit.
[05:32:21] <Jymmm> they sell precision ball bearings
[05:33:09] <A-L-P-H-A> interesting.
[05:34:11] <Jymmm> Yeah about $20 to preload a ballscrew - not bad in person.
[05:34:53] <A-L-P-H-A> that ain't bad at all.
[05:35:18] <Jymmm> and you can even get a cert for the balls too.
[05:35:23] <Jymmm> no extra charge
[05:35:27] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[05:35:30] <A-L-P-H-A> not bad at all.
[05:35:59] <Jymmm> Logisitics WILL be the death of me yet.
[05:36:12] <A-L-P-H-A> I got my third LCD monitor coming by courier today. :D
[05:36:16] <A-L-P-H-A> free shipping from staples.
[05:36:26] <Jymmm> ah, cool. what size?
[05:36:30] <A-L-P-H-A> $230CDN after taxes. 17" Viewsonics.
[05:36:38] <A-L-P-H-A> with shipping. :D
[05:36:50] <A-L-P-H-A> so I bought three of them.
[05:36:56] <Jymmm> Eh, I'll stick with my 21" crt for now tyvm
[05:54:51] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[11:09:01] <CIA-8> 03flo-h 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/ (configure configure.in): fixed lang path
[12:11:40] <TorbaX_away> TorbaX_away is now known as TorbaX
[12:36:35] <alex_joni> morning samco
[12:39:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes home
[12:40:05] <SkunkWorks> morning
[12:40:16] <SkunkWorks> drive safe
[13:29:44] <SkunkWorks> Is the diode-cap combination in the typical connection circuit be considered a "boot strap" in there http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/ir2111.pdf ?
[14:02:19] <jepler> It sure looks like its purpose is to develop a higher-than-supply voltage at Vb.
[14:05:02] <jepler> But I still don't quite follow how it works. When LO turns on its mosfet, Vs drops to near 0V so you get a voltage difference of Vcc to develop between Vs and Vb. But what makes Vs rise besides turning on the HO mosfet, which can't happen before you get a higher-than-supply voltage at Vb?
[14:07:59] <SkunkWorks> that is what I was thinking - how does it start?
[14:08:12] <SkunkWorks> Granted it must work ;)
[14:08:56] <SkunkWorks> low side would just work - but high side?
[14:12:28] <jepler> If you're driving an inductive load maybe the inductor causes the voltage at Vb to rise?
[14:12:57] <alex_joni> ir2111 is the work of the devil..
[14:12:58] <alex_joni> ;)
[14:13:05] <jepler> alex_joni: we already know you don't like it
[14:13:12] <alex_joni> I think it works like tha max232, with caps, and charges some caps
[16:27:01] <SkunkWorks> logger_aj: bookmark
[16:27:02] <SkunkWorks> See http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2006-04-11#T16-27-01
[17:13:00] <alex_joni> how does this look to you guys? http://www.dynoninstruments.com/index.html
[17:35:52] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 looks
[17:36:12] <bill2or3> windowsy
[17:36:32] <alex_joni> bill2or3: well... can't have them all
[17:36:35] <bill2or3> but otherwise neat.
[17:37:35] <SkunkWorks> love to have one.
[17:38:30] <alex_joni> SkunkWorks: it's affordable
[17:44:32] <alex_joni> although the power supplies are crappy
[17:44:36] <alex_joni> only 60mA
[17:57:09] <SkunkWorks> stuff you can get now compared to 20 years ago is unreal.
[17:57:40] <SkunkWorks> about the only option was a tektronic digital analizer.
[18:00:04] <SkunkWorks> so the accupins on the k&t looks like they send it 2 square waves of 250hz and what you get back is a sin-cos related to position of the pins. Might be doable.
[18:30:48] <SkunkWorks> I will only be coming Friday, Saturday or Sunday - - $20 If Paid in Advance - $30 if paid at the door - Note that advance payments will be refunded if you are find that you are unable to attend -
[18:31:06] <SkunkWorks> is that only 30 for one day or 30 for the 3 days?
[18:31:24] <SkunkWorks> or 20 in advance.
[18:32:18] <jepler> alex_joni: that looks interesting .. is there enough documentation to make a linux version possible?
[18:32:36] <alex_joni> jepler: not that I know, but I found a few cheaper FPGA versions
[18:33:12] <alex_joni> www.knjn.com/ShopBoards.html
[18:33:39] <alex_joni> I would take the Xylo + Flashy
[18:34:09] <alex_joni> it's half the price, but seems nice.. documentation is also available, so maybe an linux version is more probable
[18:34:33] <jepler> alex_joni: I wouldnt' buy any hardware I didn't believe I could use with Linux
[18:36:33] <alex_joni> jepler: probably you can use any hardware with linux.. the problem is how much trouble it involves
[18:36:35] <Jymmm> FPGA?! Bah, just go wire up some toggle switches!
[18:37:21] <jepler> alex_joni: Well that's true in some sense. What I mean is probably "has an existing driver or available datasheets"
[18:37:45] <alex_joni> yeah, only little trouble :)
[18:43:14] <jepler> besides, I'd probably come up with a better scope gui than whatever windows monstrosity they have
[18:43:21] <jepler> (I have a high opinion of myself)
[18:43:47] <SkunkWorks> jepler seems to have an attitude. ;)
[18:44:03] <Jymmm> * Jymmm inflats jepler's ego till it bursts!
[18:44:08] <alex_joni> jepler: I know you would :)
[18:44:24] <alex_joni> most (all?) the windows guis I've seen suck big time
[18:50:14] <alex_joni> I see the www.bitscope.com one works on linux
[18:50:47] <SkunkWorks> anyone have experience with freqgen?
[18:51:47] <alex_joni> SkunkWorks: what do you need?
[18:53:18] <SkunkWorks> I want to play with servo's and tuning. I am planing on making a h bridge and running freqgen in pwm mode. the way i understand it is it outputs a pwm signal on 2 pins - one for cw and one for ccw. (this is how I understand it). Now I will need encoder feedback also.
[18:53:38] <alex_joni> ok.. go on?
[18:53:49] <SkunkWorks> now this will requier pid for tuning correct?
[18:53:56] <alex_joni> right
[18:54:31] <cradek> SkunkWorks: jepler used that scheme on his servo-driven etch-a-sketch
[18:54:36] <cradek> SkunkWorks: the config is in cvs
[18:54:58] <SkunkWorks> ok - I had read it had an internal pid but I think either I was confused or someone else was ;)
[18:55:11] <SkunkWorks> maybe that was stepgen
[18:55:16] <alex_joni> emc position -> pid -> freqgen -> motor / enc -> encoderreader -> pid
[18:55:47] <SkunkWorks> good - that is what i want. I just printed out the hal for integrators pdf - very nice.
[18:56:06] <alex_joni> hmm.. the pdf is slightly outdated
[18:56:17] <SkunkWorks> it is a starting point for me though ;)
[18:56:18] <alex_joni> I fixed the lyx version, but there is no new pdf..
[18:56:23] <alex_joni> only minor things
[18:57:26] <alex_joni> incantations and the like..
[18:57:42] <SkunkWorks> cradek: I am keeping an eye on jepler ;)
[18:57:54] <alex_joni> uh-oh
[19:07:49] <SkunkWorks> does the emc encoder input count all the edges?
[19:08:03] <SkunkWorks> did that make sense?
[19:08:18] <alex_joni> yeah
[19:08:29] <alex_joni> you can count quadrature in quite a few ways
[19:08:54] <alex_joni> 1 count = 4 edges, 1 count = 2 edges, 1 count = 1 edge
[19:09:07] <alex_joni> I think encoder does the last one?
[19:09:20] <alex_joni> but you should read the fine manual >D
[19:10:09] <SkunkWorks> ok - good. so If I have and encoder with 40 that would be 160 counts
[19:11:34] <SkunkWorks> 40 slots
[19:12:18] <SkunkWorks> wwjd? jwrtfm. ;)
[19:13:45] <jepler> I don't think my little motors got anywhere near the limit for emc2 to read the encoders
[19:13:53] <jepler> but it seems likely that any real system will
[19:14:54] <SkunkWorks> isn't it totaly related to how fast your machine is?
[19:14:58] <jepler> The etch-a-sketch runs at 1700 edges per inch, 4 inches/second.
[19:15:22] <jepler> I use base period 50000, or about 20kHz
[19:15:53] <SkunkWorks> isn't that 240 ipm?
[19:16:05] <jepler> yeah I suppose
[19:16:26] <SkunkWorks> that is a .0005 resolution - that is exactly what we are looking for.
[19:16:36] <SkunkWorks> .0006
[19:16:49] <jepler> so I'm sampling at about 3 base_periods per edge, that seems to be fine in practice
[19:16:51] <SkunkWorks> unreal
[19:17:15] <jepler> and the granularity of the drive signal is also 20 kHz -- the motors make very audible but high-pitched noises
[19:17:34] <jepler> I tried base period 20000, which gave a higher-pitched noise but didn't make any performance difference.
[19:17:58] <jepler> If I ran the motors at 30V instead of 12V I might have to decrease base_period to read the encoder pulses.
[19:22:06] <jepler> my motors are low-current, low-voltage, and their encoders have TTL output signals, so a very simple design sufficed. Have you seen the schematic I put on my blog?
[19:30:36] <SkunkWorks> Yes - very nice. simple
[19:31:01] <SkunkWorks> The period should do just that - increase the pwm frequency
[19:31:48] <SkunkWorks> how long did it take you to "tune" them?
[19:36:33] <Lerneaen> new user here, is there any "getting started" documentation? Particularly around the hardware connections and setting things up in software (paralell port, which pins controll various things and how to configure the hardware in the EMC software)
[19:37:24] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: quite a bit of information is in the wiki.linuxcnc.org
[19:37:54] <Lerneaen> ah, thank you.
[19:38:01] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: it's not quite as easy to point you in one direction, because there are many EMC versions.. which one are you using?
[19:38:17] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: also, bear in mind that you can always ask in here for help/hints
[19:38:24] <Lerneaen> currently I have installed EMC2 on a standard breezy installation
[19:38:35] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: that sounds like a good choice..
[19:38:41] <SkunkWorks> good choice
[19:38:43] <SkunkWorks> ;)
[19:38:49] <alex_joni> there is a document describing HAL basics
[19:38:59] <alex_joni> HAL=Hardware Abstraction Layer
[19:39:05] <Lerneaen> EMC2 is regarded as semi-stable even though its not "released"?
[19:39:16] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/Hal_Introduction.pdf
[19:39:45] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: emc2 is very near to a release.. maybe the latest will be named as a release
[19:40:07] <alex_joni> either way.. you'll automatically be prompted when updates are available
[19:40:52] <Lerneaen> I looked through that pdf earlier, is it necessary to do all the configuration that they do with the hal scope and other various things (checking latency and so on)
[19:42:51] <alex_joni> no, not necessary
[19:42:51] <Lerneaen> and on a side note, I found many things regarding the subsystem of the HAL, but not much as to controlling/configuring the various speeds, accelerations, removing play in screws and so on, but that may be somewhere else.
[19:43:11] <SkunkWorks> is this for a stepper machine?
[19:43:27] <alex_joni> you won't find hardware configuration stuff (liek removing play in screws). because that's beyond EMC
[19:43:48] <alex_joni> speeds, accels, & all can be set from the ini (most of it described in the wiki)
[19:43:54] <Lerneaen> ah, ok
[19:43:57] <fogl> alex, i remeber i've seen your cnc project with three stepper motors, but i cant find that web page any more, can you tell me the url please
[19:44:19] <alex_joni> fogl: http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/mytoy iirc
[19:44:29] <alex_joni> I think there's a link in the wiki
[19:44:49] <SkunkWorks> jepler: how long did it take you to "tune" your servos? How hard was it? Do you think it could be improved?
[19:45:17] <jepler> SkunkWorks: They're still not really that well tuned. It's my first servo experience, and there's not a lot of docs
[19:45:21] <jepler> so I just fumbled around
[19:45:35] <SkunkWorks> ok - did you use halscope?
[19:45:43] <jepler> Yeah, I used halscope and looked at the ferror term
[19:45:50] <jepler> I forget the name of the parameter
[19:45:55] <jepler> I tried to keep it from "ringing"
[19:46:13] <SkunkWorks> ok - I had read the hal tuning on the wiki - but hands on would be a lot nicer ;)
[19:47:48] <jepler> one problem with tuning was that I have a fairly large backlash; a set of PID coefficients that give good results for a move without backlash compensation give bad results for a move that includes backlash compensation
[19:48:15] <Lerneaen> regarding play in the screw, I think I read somewhere that EMC2 had backlash correction, and if I remember my english terms correctly (I live in sweden so its rather difficult relearning all the shop language) then backlash is play in a screw or similar device (gear cogs for instance)
[19:49:46] <jepler> SkunkWorks: my following errors are still pretty high (the numbers in the ini file)
[19:49:58] <jepler> Lerneaen: yes, I think "backlash" is the term you mean
[19:50:47] <jepler> SkunkWorks: while tuning, I used halcmd to set new PID parameters, and repeatedly ran a program that would do some motion (about 1") in the axis under test.
[19:51:08] <jepler> SkunkWorks: If I believed what I did was "right" I'd document it better, but I don't know if it's right or not
[19:51:37] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: didn't you say that emc2 doesn't support play compensation, or did I misunderstand you?
[19:51:55] <fogl> alex, do you need to write the g code for all three steppers, or you can write g code for only two axes (and the rest is done by the emc)?
[19:52:08] <jepler> fogl: You write 2-axis code
[19:52:13] <SkunkWorks> jepler: :) well when I get to that point - I might be asking more questions as you will have had more experience. Looking at atleast a week or more
[19:52:22] <jepler> fogl: the "kinematics" transform the 2 axis motion into 3-"joint" motion
[19:52:27] <alex_joni> fogl: actually 3-axes g-code is possible
[19:52:50] <alex_joni> jepler: I had a Z-axis too, but didn't use that as the thingiie had not enough weight to keep the cables tense
[19:53:13] <alex_joni> so when going in z, the wires would bend & twist.. not good
[19:53:19] <alex_joni> I usually ran only with Z=0
[19:54:02] <fogl> 2 axes is better...is this also the option of operation of emc2 (set in .ini or is this something special)?
[19:54:22] <alex_joni> fogl: the code is not in CVS.. didn't think anyone would want it..
[19:54:22] <jepler> fogl: Right now, you have to write some new "C" code for new kinematics
[19:54:28] <SkunkWorks> backlash = devil
[19:55:01] <fogl> CVS?
[19:55:03] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: emc2 supports backlash compensation, but it's best to remove that from the Hardware
[19:55:15] <alex_joni> fogl: online Nirvana where emc code lives
[19:55:21] <Lerneaen> ah yes but cheap benchtop mill gives at least some backlash ;)
[19:55:43] <cradek> alex_joni: I think yours would be a great kinematics example even if it's not practical
[19:55:49] <Lerneaen> so the compensation is only somewhat fully implemented?
[19:55:54] <SkunkWorks> I thought there still was an issue with backlash - where it sends out a paulse train to fast for the steppers to move.
[19:56:23] <SkunkWorks> for stepping motors anyway.
[19:56:29] <alex_joni> cradek: I'll add it these days.. need to find the sources :D
[19:56:33] <SkunkWorks> pulse
[19:56:55] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: backlash compensation is done to the best that it can
[19:57:13] <alex_joni> but it's not perfect (theoretically not perfect doable )
[19:57:36] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: the theoretical best is alrady implemented then?
[19:58:06] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: I think so.. if it's not, we are happy to try better :)
[19:59:05] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: ok, well then it should be able to remove most of the backlash at least, which is probably good enough. (for a few months, until I get impatient and spend even more money :))
[20:00:01] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: yup.. sounds like a plan
[20:00:39] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: where is said configuration file (settings for stepper motors and so on)?
[20:02:20] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: there are quite a few sample configs that come along with emc2
[20:02:32] <alex_joni> usually in /etc/emc2/sample-configs
[20:02:40] <alex_joni> you should care about the stepper/ dir
[20:03:26] <alex_joni> it's safe to run emc (from the menu), then you'll have a config picker from which you can pick stepper_mm or stepper_inch (depending on your preferences)
[20:03:30] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: ok, thanks. Just out of curiosity, are steppers good enough for most tasks, or do they frequently hop a step?
[20:03:43] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: if configured properly they are good enough
[20:03:54] <alex_joni> but it's a matter of size/power/speed
[20:04:02] <alex_joni> oh, and money :)
[20:04:11] <jepler> Lerneaen: they're perfectly reliable on the machine I use (cradek's machine)
[20:04:23] <alex_joni> more serious machines use servo's, but even big machines can be run with steppers
[20:04:43] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: ah, yes, money.. that would be a very large reason. ;)
[20:04:44] <alex_joni> each! variant (stepper, servo Dc, servo AC) has it's own limitations and advantages
[20:05:11] <alex_joni> usually steppers are on the lower end machines (up to 3-5k$)
[20:05:59] <alex_joni> although (as jepler has proven) you can have low-budget servos too
[20:06:24] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: I'll probably go with steppers for the time being
[20:06:39] <jepler> alex_joni: and those motors are on sale this month .. $11 instead of $15
[20:06:50] <alex_joni> jepler: lol
[20:06:52] <jepler> but I don't think they're useful for even a desktop mill
[20:07:01] <alex_joni> you can stack them :D
[20:07:21] <alex_joni> big flywheel, and 3-4 motors turning on it :D
[20:07:35] <Lerneaen> that would be a sight to see. :D
[20:07:47] <cradek> what a great idea
[20:07:48] <Lerneaen> talk about slow acceleration
[20:08:05] <cradek> you could use a timing belt wrapped around four of them
[20:08:17] <alex_joni> guys, I was KIDDING..
[20:08:31] <alex_joni> although.. that makes it easy to mount the encoder
[20:08:35] <alex_joni> ROFL
[20:09:19] <cradek> if they were dual shaft, you could stack them end-to-end
[20:09:36] <bill2or3> hi.
[20:09:54] <alex_joni> I doubt that would be very effective
[20:10:05] <Lerneaen> it would be a PITA to fix them all and get their rotation correct, so that they don't work against each other
[20:12:07] <Lerneaen> which units are axxeleration, velocity and so on in?
[20:12:32] <cradek> user units/sec, user units/sec^2
[20:12:34] <jepler> Lerneaen: units per second and units per second squared
[20:12:38] <bill2or3> I prefer to just refer to them with "some" "a bit" "lots"
[20:12:42] <cradek> user units can typically be inch or mm
[20:13:00] <Lerneaen> by units do you mean MM/INch?
[20:13:02] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: stepper_mm.ini <- all units = mm
[20:13:07] <Lerneaen> ah! ok
[20:13:17] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: stepper_inch.ini <- all units = inch
[20:14:00] <Lerneaen> so max acceleration of 500 in stepper_mm.ini is 500mm/s^2?
[20:14:11] <cradek> yes
[20:14:27] <Lerneaen> so defult time unit is seconds unless written elsewhere?
[20:14:38] <cradek> time unit is always seconds
[20:14:48] <cradek> (until someone proves me wrong)
[20:14:52] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/common/emc.nml: let keystick have it's own place in the nml file
[20:17:19] <Lerneaen> is there some file/webpage that has desriptions of what the various variables are? they are not all completly self-explanatory, things sich as stepgenmaxvel/maxvel or max_limit = 1000.
[20:17:52] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: most info is in the ini itself.. but the wiki should have that
[20:17:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni looks for a link
[20:18:36] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?EmcIni
[20:19:10] <Lerneaen> alex_joni: ah, that is most helpfull
[20:19:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni curses CIA
[20:20:16] <cradek> DAMPING_FRICTION_COEFFICIENT = 0.083 The damping coefficient, in torque units per radian per second.
[20:20:24] <cradek> some of this is a bit out of date
[20:20:27] <alex_joni> lol, that's from emc1
[20:21:06] <jepler> it's a wiki; that means we're all guilty of not updating it.
[20:21:27] <alex_joni> jepler: the descriptions were/are for emc1
[20:21:39] <alex_joni> but it's linked in from both places
[20:22:05] <alex_joni> maybe we should add a (emc1 ONLY, emc2 ONLY, emc1&emc2 ..) but that would add some confusion
[20:22:09] <cradek> Lerneaen: at least we're here, and we're mostly up to date
[20:22:41] <Lerneaen> well, you'll have to deal with lots of repetitive questions, one per new user ;)
[20:22:59] <cradek> only until we get tired enough of it to update the wiki
[20:23:17] <K4ts> hello
[20:23:18] <alex_joni> cradek: speak for yourself..
[20:23:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni tries to update himself
[20:23:31] <alex_joni> but I guess I need sudo for that
[20:23:35] <cradek> alex_joni: what's wrong with cia?
[20:23:54] <cradek> oh did it drop another message?
[20:23:54] <alex_joni> I commited keystick, and it didn't show up
[20:24:27] <alex_joni> right now a new commit
[20:24:27] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/Submakefile: add keystick to the build process
[20:24:33] <alex_joni> darn, this one worked..
[20:24:43] <cradek> maybe it doesn't work for new files (for some reason)
[20:24:59] <cradek> you got no error messages right?
[20:25:46] <alex_joni> well, I ctrl-c'ed it half way the first time
[20:25:54] <alex_joni> because I had to fix my bad grammar
[20:25:58] <alex_joni> then ran it again
[20:26:04] <cradek> ok, it's probably your fault then
[20:26:09] <alex_joni> maybe it got confused :)
[20:26:43] <Lerneaen> I will no doubt ask you more things tomorrow, but for now, IƤll go (timezones...)
[20:26:52] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: what time?
[20:26:55] <jepler> Lerneaen: see you again soon
[20:27:04] <Lerneaen> 10:27pm, I have to get up at 06:00
[20:27:06] <cradek> goodnight Lerneaen
[20:27:15] <alex_joni> goodnight, and happy emc'ing :)
[20:27:37] <Lerneaen> the ironic thing is that at my school we have a really really good lathe and a relativly good mill
[20:27:48] <Lerneaen> (cnc that is
[20:27:59] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: emc2 is close to running lathes
[20:28:12] <alex_joni> maybe if you can provide some info we can make it better
[20:28:26] <Lerneaen> was it just the single point thread cutting that is required?
[20:28:29] <jepler> in fact there's an emc2-cut thread photo here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?SpindleSynchronizedMotion
[20:28:31] <Lerneaen> what type of information?
[20:28:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni lets cradek take over :D
[20:28:53] <cradek> I suspect by the end of May we will have decent lathe support (after the cnc workshop)
[20:29:18] <cradek> some basic things already work
[20:29:27] <Lerneaen> ah, ok. I take it basic 2-axis stuff already works?
[20:29:32] <cradek> sure
[20:29:43] <alex_joni> basic 6-axis stuff works :)
[20:30:07] <Lerneaen> 6 axis, xyz/abc axis?
[20:30:15] <cradek> yes or hexapod
[20:30:20] <alex_joni> or xyz/rpw or hexapod
[20:30:28] <Lerneaen> ok
[20:30:28] <alex_joni> or puma typed robot
[20:30:37] <alex_joni> or scara typed robot :)
[20:30:42] <Lerneaen> rather advanced stuff then
[20:31:11] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: it's actually quite simple if you don't go into specifics (i know I haven't)
[20:31:53] <Lerneaen> well then there can't be much missing from the thread turning cycle, if C axis already works with a complete spindle encoder
[20:33:21] <Lerneaen> the NC code used for the lathe I use has slightly differeing parameters, among them G33
[20:33:21] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/configs/sim/keystick.ini: keystick-sim ini file
[20:34:04] <Lerneaen> however I cannot edit the wiki
[20:34:15] <SkunkWorks> they have not really decided on the threading standard for emc yet.
[20:34:25] <jepler> Lerneaen: You have to sign in. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[20:34:34] <_terr> SkunkWorks: what do you mean the threading standard?
[20:34:46] <jepler> "We've had to 'lock' the site because of spam-bots plagueing the pages ... but, you can all have the password :) .. choose 'preferences' and in the box marked Administrator Password, enter 'emc', we spent ages thinking that one up ;)"
[20:34:47] <cradek> alex_joni: looks like cia does work for new files
[20:35:13] <cradek> surprisingly that "security" has worked perfectly
[20:35:16] <alex_joni> cradek: yup, probably it got confused (maybe the email got sent before I aborted)
[20:35:31] <Lerneaen> any username?
[20:35:32] <alex_joni> then it got sent again...
[20:35:41] <cradek> Lerneaen: yes
[20:35:41] <jepler> Lerneaen: whatever you like .. the admin password is the important part
[20:35:45] <alex_joni> Lerneaen: how about Lerneaen ?
[20:36:02] <_terr> SkunkWorks: do you mean threads per inch? threads per centimeter or pitch?
[20:36:07] <SkunkWorks> there are a ton of differnt ways to do threading between differnt comercial controls. They have not decided as far as I know on which(s) they are going to use.
[20:36:09] <Lerneaen> actually icr truncated my username, i suppose I should change it
[20:36:20] <Lerneaen> Lerneaen is now known as Lerneaen_Hydra
[20:36:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> That's better
[20:36:29] <alex_joni> _terr: some use G32 some G33, and so on..
[20:36:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[20:36:55] <_terr> alex_joni: can you elaborate? I do not know what the terms mean
[20:37:10] <alex_joni> _terr: there is no complete G-code standard
[20:37:24] <alex_joni> the RS274-D is the last standard, but lots of parts are missing
[20:37:39] <_terr> alex_joni: oh... this would be a G-code string to specify threading...
[20:37:48] <alex_joni> so all the commercial control suppliers developed theiur dialect (Fanuc, Siemens, etc.)
[20:37:57] <alex_joni> _terr: on some controls yes
[20:38:01] <SkunkWorks> alex_joni - show him the threading page on wiki
[20:38:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the main page wont authorise me, anyway, i'll update the wiki tomorrow then (if that would be a good thing to have)
[20:38:08] <SkunkWorks> I don't have a url
[20:38:14] <_terr> SkunkWorks: I'll check into it another time.
[20:38:18] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: very good
[20:38:30] <_terr> SkunkWorks: I still have to buy a machine.
[20:38:32] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?SpindleSynchronizedMotion
[20:38:40] <_terr> but the thing about sherline is that it seems to have accuracy and I don't need a fork lift to move it.
[20:38:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> *poofs away*
[20:38:56] <_terr> I would like to ask ppl's opinions on sherline. Is there any reason I should _not_ but from them?
[20:38:56] <alex_joni> night Lerneaen_Hydra
[20:39:10] <alex_joni> _terr: I have a sherline XY slide
[20:39:11] <_terr> but the thing about sherline is that it seems to have accuracy and I don't need a fork lift to move it.
[20:39:20] <alex_joni> other than some backlash it's great
[20:39:21] <_terr> I can buy a 480 KG knee mill for $1400 bux. The sherline mill costs this much.
[20:39:21] <cradek> _terr: the only reason NOT to buy a sherline is if you need something bigger
[20:39:35] <_terr> I want to build an English wheel for my brother tna that will have 3" diameter by 3" wide solid steel 4140 rollers and an 8" roller too. Might be a bit much for a sherline.
[20:40:19] <_terr> cradek: I am not sure teh Chineese mills make sense - they are big and heavy but might not be very accurate.
[20:40:32] <CIA-8> 03alex_joni 07HEAD * 10emc2/debian/control: added dependencies needed for keystick
[20:41:03] <cradek> _terr: sometimes I think the chinese stuff is good castings with everything else crap that needs to be replaced, still an ok deal for the money if you want a project
[20:41:15] <cradek> _terr: but who knows, really
[20:41:32] <_terr> cradek: I would prefer to get something that is reasonable quality.
[20:41:46] <_terr> cradek: I've not used either so I just don't know.
[20:42:17] <_terr> cradek: none of the chineese stuff seems to have any NC thought put into it.
[20:42:22] <cradek> sherline is very decent
[20:42:41] <alex_joni> _terr: get a sherline with their motors & G201's
[20:42:47] <alex_joni> best deal for small machines
[20:42:49] <_terr> cradek: sherline has good resale value too - especially on ebay.
[20:43:00] <_terr> geko 201's?
[20:43:01] <cradek> I think we've had this exact conversation before
[20:43:11] <_terr> cradek: pretty close...
[20:43:13] <jepler> If you have a spare half thousand dollars maybe it makes sense to buy a stack of G201s
[20:43:21] <cradek> well my opinion is still the same
[20:43:27] <_terr> jepler: why?
[20:43:57] <_terr> what aboute the sherline "A" "B" and "C" packages - do they make sense?
[20:44:02] <jepler> _terr: oh I think the gecko stuff may be high quality, but it's priced accordingly.
[20:44:17] <_terr> jepler: $140 bux an axis - adds up.
[20:44:18] <cradek> _terr: I bought mine ten years ago, no idea
[20:44:59] <_terr> cradek: can you machine a roller 3" wide and 3" in diameter out of 4140 steel on a sherline? What is the biggest and toughest parts you've made?
[20:45:35] <alex_joni> ok, I'll leave you to your nice chat :)
[20:45:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads for bed
[20:46:02] <SkunkWorks> night alex
[20:46:10] <cradek> 3 inch diameter sounds pretty big. I don't recall exactly what the swing is
[20:46:11] <alex_joni> g'night all
[20:46:13] <_terr> g'nite alex g'nite joni
[20:46:26] <cradek> that information should be on the sherline web pages
[20:46:28] <alex_joni> _terr: just one here :D
[20:46:34] <cradek> night alex
[20:46:42] <_terr> cradek: I can use a stand off - I was wondering about cutting on a piece that big.
[20:46:55] <_terr> alex_joni: I don't know...
[20:47:05] <_terr> alex I thought you were taking Joni to bed
[20:47:19] <cradek> _terr: their motor has a lot of power even at low speed, might be fine.
[20:47:44] <Jymmm> Does potting act like a heat sink?
[20:47:44] <_terr> cradek: well - it can be run slow... with a sharp tool
[20:48:10] <_terr> Jymmm: probably not - you can blow air over it...
[20:48:29] <_terr> I have to run off t the store. bbl
[21:10:22] <jepler> Bo^Dick: do you know this person "Lerneaen_Hydra" who was in the channel earlier? He seemed to be from the same ISP as you.
[21:10:33] <jepler> Bo^Dick: if you're "passing the word" about emc, thanks.
[21:21:58] <_terr> what aboute the sherline "A" "B" and "C" packages - do they make sense?
[21:22:26] <_terr> how feasible is it to make the rizers, tool holders, cnc mounts etc
[21:37:57] <K4ts> night
[21:59:23] <dmessier> hi all
[22:00:54] <dmessier> WHO wants my JOB..... i'm sub'ing and they figured i'd just keep showin' up...
[22:01:27] <dmessier> if you show up IT could be YOURS
[22:02:07] <_terr> what do they pay?
[22:02:10] <dmessier> and ALL cause i said " SHOW ME THE $$$$"
[22:02:28] <dmessier> canuck bucks
[22:03:37] <_terr> they are worth 87 cents or so - how many?
[22:04:26] <dmessier> what can you do??
[22:04:45] <_terr> I can do pretty much anything
[22:05:14] <dmessier> workopolis... messier dowty... manufacturing engineer
[22:05:42] <dmessier> chk it out... can you be ITAR certed
[22:06:07] <_terr> I can be if I want to be... so far I don't know why I would want to be
[22:06:37] <dmessier> chk it out..
[22:07:09] <dmessier> aero- components... landing gear
[22:07:39] <dmessier> v22 nose is coming to a theatre near me
[22:07:39] <_terr> Oh - for that I need cert and apprentisship
[22:07:54] <_terr> 747? lol
[22:08:01] <dmessier> how old are you??
[22:08:07] <_terr> why
[22:08:12] <dmessier> matters
[22:08:16] <_terr> why?
[22:08:29] <dmessier> cuz experience rules..
[22:08:58] <dmessier> i started 8 apprenticeships... never wrote a final
[22:09:30] <_terr> finals don't scare me at all.
[22:09:42] <dmessier> me neither...
[22:10:31] <_terr> what do they pay tho - curious...
[22:14:26] <dmessier> contract 24-45 /hr
[22:15:06] <_terr> not enuf.
[22:15:56] <_terr> what city?
[22:17:16] <dmessier> east of toronto ajax
[22:17:44] <_terr> I'm in Calgary. Here in Alberta even welders get over $100 per hour
[22:54:25] <dmessier> i was thinkin of moving there... or northern alberta
[22:55:19] <dmessier> im used to working BIG machines... cnc boring mills or vert. turning centers
[22:56:02] <dmessier> small stuff i have to remember stuff from days gone past
[22:56:32] <dmessier> 7 axis small stuff is special
[22:56:52] <dmessier> we didnt have that many then
[22:58:24] <dmessier> we have 1 transmorgification with 10 axes.... by the time you have the nutating head on... nad they mark on GD & T
[22:59:04] <dmessier> who whnt to try the kins??
[23:00:11] <dmessier> _terr what are you billing for??
[23:38:12] <jepler> http://www.xat.nl/enigma-e/