#emc | Logs for 2006-04-04

[00:32:57] <giacus> night
[00:37:17] <JymmmEMC> Hody skunkworks
[00:37:19] <JymmmEMC> howdy
[00:37:32] <skunkworks> how is it going?
[00:37:47] <JymmmEMC> It's goin... just have no idea where =)
[00:37:53] <skunkworks> same here.
[00:38:10] <skunkworks> have any 100 amp servo drives in your junk drawer?
[00:38:17] <skunkworks> I could use 3
[00:38:23] <skunkworks> and a spare
[00:38:35] <skunkworks> but 3 would be fine
[00:38:35] <JymmmEMC> Went searching for a present for my gf's bday tomorrow... hit three stores and all I found was crap!
[00:39:08] <skunkworks> tip - no appliences ;)
[00:39:46] <JymmmEMC> No, I was going to get here a mini thin cd/stereo that could be mounted on the wall.... nothing
[00:40:19] <JymmmEMC> or the ones I did find were POS!
[00:42:16] <skunkworks> figures
[00:43:25] <JymmmEMC> I thought one fo those that you move your hand across the fron and it slides open. couldn't evne find those.
[00:44:00] <skunkworks> ah - you must watch nip-tuck ;)
[00:44:15] <JymmmEMC> I did, but I saw them way before then.
[00:44:20] <skunkworks> :)
[00:49:55] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks, and when you get those 100a servo drives, pick up a few for me too :)
[00:50:27] <skunkworks> sounds good.. I think maybe I may hatch a few and see how that goes.
[00:50:41] <JymmmEMC> Um... no thanks. You keep em!
[00:51:16] <skunkworks> are you sure?
[00:51:33] <JymmmEMC> if you HATCH em, you keep em!
[00:53:39] <skunkworks> Ok then.
[02:15:29] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. We're working on the problems with Tor abuse. We ask that you only ban "*@tor/session/*", rather than adding a global ban on "*@tor/*" . Freenode continues to support the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Tor project and will work on ways to filter out the abuse without causing problems for legitimate users.
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[02:32:12] <jmkasunich_> jmkasunich_ is now known as jmkasunich
[02:44:39] <skunkworks> is there any ic's that run +/- 10 volts in with tach feed back make to run a power stage pwm. :) I am having no luck so far.
[02:45:30] <fenn> um, diode and two 555's?
[02:45:37] <fenn> er, 2 diodes i guess
[02:45:49] <fenn> * fenn wonders if that would actually work
[02:48:31] <skunkworks> how about one 556 ;)
[02:48:43] <skunkworks> I think I have played with that circuit
[02:48:50] <fenn> why are you trying to accept analog input anyway?
[02:49:02] <fenn> is there no pwm out?
[02:49:36] <skunkworks> * skunkworks has a grandious dream of building a high power servo amp
[02:49:41] <skunkworks> 3 actually
[02:50:12] <skunkworks> to run from a montec card
[02:50:38] <fenn> hmm motenc doesnt do pwm out?
[02:50:47] <skunkworks> does it?
[02:51:13] <fenn> guess not
[02:51:18] <fenn> thats dumb
[02:51:19] <skunkworks> didn't see it but it could.
[02:52:01] <fenn> wow they are sold out
[02:52:09] <skunkworks> I would be tempted to try what jmk did with using pwm out of emc to run a h bridge
[02:52:44] <fenn> no i think you should stick with using that fancy servo card
[02:52:51] <fenn> er, you have one right?
[02:53:12] <skunkworks> not yet. have not gotten that far yet
[02:53:15] <fenn> the reason i say that is you dont get a lot of resolution at high pwm rates out of a parallel port
[02:53:50] <skunkworks> it would not have to be a parallel port. what about a pci i/o card?
[02:53:55] <fenn> whereas the motenc updates a full byte each cycle, bitbanging only turns on/off once each cycle, and 1 cycle is the lowest resolution you get
[02:54:16] <fenn> or however many bits it takes
[02:54:58] <fenn> say you have a 16 bit analog or PWM output, you get 32 times the resolution of a 1-bit output
[02:55:16] <fenn> or better
[02:56:17] <skunkworks> then I am back to maybe building a large servo amp X 3
[02:57:58] <fenn> how large?
[02:58:51] <skunkworks> let me look again for the specs but a dc brushed servo of 75ft-lbs
[02:59:09] <jmkasunich> wow
[02:59:25] <jmkasunich> 75 ft lbs is lug nuts torque
[02:59:28] <skunkworks> yes.
[02:59:42] <jmkasunich> what speed do you need?
[03:00:14] <jmkasunich> (75 ft lbs at 1800 RPM is 25 horsepower)
[03:00:23] <skunkworks> the ball screws are 3 threads per inch
[03:00:43] <skunkworks> this would be direct drive - this is how it was on the cnc they where taken off of
[03:00:55] <jmkasunich> bet those motors are big
[03:01:04] <skunkworks> they are :)
[03:01:26] <skunkworks> it used to be run with a 3 phase scr drive.
[03:01:41] <skunkworks> we only have the output stage
[03:03:14] <skunkworks> think it would be posible?
[03:03:21] <skunkworks> on a budget?
[03:03:26] <SWPadnos> definitely not on a budget
[03:03:29] <SWPadnos> what?
[03:03:33] <SWPadnos> hi :)
[03:04:51] <skunkworks> servo amp for a 75ft-lb servo
[03:04:57] <skunkworks> trying to find the specs
[03:05:26] <SWPadnos> AC or DC?
[03:06:13] <skunkworks> dc brushed
[03:06:22] <skunkworks> classic :)
[03:06:31] <SWPadnos> oh, then a Gecko will come close to handling it
[03:06:36] <SWPadnos> but without any headroom
[03:07:18] <skunkworks> that is one thought.
[03:09:40] <fenn> that sounds like overkill
[03:09:55] <fenn> you aren't doing production, why do you need 25hp servos?
[03:10:45] <SWPadnos> 75 ft-lb isn't necessarily 75 HP
[03:10:50] <SWPadnos> err - 25 HP
[03:11:19] <fenn> ok 4 horsepower
[03:11:30] <SWPadnos> depeds on the speed
[03:11:35] <fenn> at 1800 rpm
[03:11:35] <SWPadnos> depends, too
[03:11:42] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos can't type on laptop keyboards
[03:11:50] <skunkworks> trying to find the specs
[03:24:19] <kn1ghtjp> knock knock. anyone awake?
[03:24:25] <cradek> lots of us
[03:25:01] <SWPadnos> nope
[03:25:02] <kn1ghtjp> sorry to be a bother, i just wanted to ask how to create a thread using halcmd. i dunno how to start one.
[03:25:18] <SWPadnos> creating and starting are two separate operations
[03:25:21] <kn1ghtjp> i have the emc2 testing
[03:25:40] <jmkasunich> are you using an emc config, or are you trying to do something else?
[03:25:55] <kn1ghtjp> just using HAL
[03:25:55] <jmkasunich> emc's motion module creates the threads that emc needs
[03:26:00] <fenn> loadrt threads
[03:26:01] <kn1ghtjp> i just wanted to spin a stepper
[03:26:04] <jmkasunich> ok, then you want the threads component
[03:26:23] <kn1ghtjp> oh ok. so there's a threads component.
[03:26:26] <jmkasunich> loadrt threads name1=<name of thread> period1=<period in ns>
[03:26:32] <fenn> i dont think its documented anywhere
[03:26:37] <kn1ghtjp> ah...
[03:26:39] <jmkasunich> it supports name2, period2, etc
[03:26:40] <kn1ghtjp> thanks!
[03:26:45] <kn1ghtjp> i'll try it out. :D
[03:26:47] <jmkasunich> do the fastest thread first
[03:26:57] <jmkasunich> any more questions just ask
[03:27:03] <kn1ghtjp> thank you!
[03:27:11] <SWPadnos> one other thing
[03:27:16] <kn1ghtjp> yep?
[03:27:22] <SWPadnos> if you create some threads, then want to create more
[03:27:28] <SWPadnos> you have to unloadrt threads first
[03:27:33] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:27:34] <SWPadnos> the threads don't go away
[03:27:44] <jmkasunich> actually you can unloadrt threads as soon as you load it
[03:27:48] <SWPadnos> right
[03:28:09] <SWPadnos> hmmm - maybe it should just unoad itself ;)
[03:28:10] <kn1ghtjp> sorry, does that mean i can only create 1 thread?
[03:28:13] <jmkasunich> if you try to create more threads later, their periods will be an integer multiple of your original fastest thread
[03:28:15] <SWPadnos> no - 3 at a time
[03:28:21] <kn1ghtjp> after starting you mean?
[03:28:22] <SWPadnos> (up to 3 at a time)
[03:28:42] <kn1ghtjp> create more threads after a start command?
[03:28:59] <SWPadnos> you can start and stop as often as you like
[03:29:09] <jmkasunich> loadrt threads name1=fast_thread period1=50000 name2=med_thread period2=1000000 name3=slow_thread period3=20000000
[03:29:19] <kn1ghtjp> ah... so that's how it works
[03:29:35] <kn1ghtjp> all on one line
[03:29:38] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:29:46] <skunkworks> I think I have the stalled specs
[03:29:47] <skunkworks> 16.2 volts 17 amps 17 ft-lbs
[03:29:51] <jmkasunich> you can create them one at a time, but thats just more complicated
[03:30:00] <skunkworks> 82 volts 80 amps and 80ft-lbs
[03:30:19] <SWPadnos> 80A will be a pain
[03:30:27] <SWPadnos> is that continuous or peak?
[03:30:28] <skunkworks> first one is continuouse - second set is peak
[03:30:34] <SWPadnos> ah
[03:30:42] <skunkworks> stalled
[03:30:48] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:31:04] <jmkasunich> gonna need a big transformer and even bigger caps
[03:31:07] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:31:27] <skunkworks> you have not seen our junk drawer
[03:31:30] <skunkworks> :)
[03:31:52] <SWPadnos> you'll need a second power feed
[03:31:57] <fenn> do you actually have these motors or just need them?
[03:32:04] <SWPadnos> at 6.5 kW peak ;)
[03:32:06] <skunkworks> we have a set of 3
[03:32:15] <skunkworks> taken from an older cnc
[03:32:31] <skunkworks> perminate magnet
[03:32:34] <jmkasunich> 220V ac line, 20A = 4.4kW
[03:32:41] <jmkasunich> yeah, you need a bigger line
[03:32:42] <skunkworks> we have 3 phase
[03:32:49] <jmkasunich> ok, that changes everything
[03:32:55] <jmkasunich> real power
[03:33:00] <skunkworks> :)
[03:33:10] <fenn> how do you calculate power for 3 phase?
[03:33:35] <SWPadnos> 1.5x 1-phase, usually
[03:33:35] <fenn> just V*A*3?
[03:33:53] <fenn> ok
[03:34:05] <jmkasunich> Vl-l * I * sqrt(3)
[03:34:16] <jmkasunich> or Vl-n * I * 3
[03:37:02] <skunkworks> it is a 220v 3 phase service.
[03:40:12] <jmkasunich> heres a power feed for you: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/wc1power.jpg
[03:40:21] <jmkasunich> 480V 2000A
[03:40:48] <skunkworks> 480 scares me. I have heard stories. :)
[03:40:50] <SWPadnos> wimpy ;)
[03:40:57] <SWPadnos> http://www.dynapower.com
[03:41:13] <SWPadnos> though they don't have the really big supplies on the website
[03:41:32] <fenn> why are the bus bars silver looking?
[03:41:44] <jmkasunich> tin plated for corrosion protection
[03:41:53] <SWPadnos> and flash
[03:41:58] <jmkasunich> they're copper, 3/8" thick x 4" wide
[03:42:05] <fenn> SWP that's 960KW
[03:42:23] <SWPadnos> wimpy, like I said
[03:42:33] <SWPadnos> :)
[03:42:42] <jmkasunich> how big are the dynapower things?
[03:42:50] <jmkasunich> they're not small, but not huge either
[03:43:05] <fenn> up to 20MWatt
[03:43:14] <SWPadnos> the biggest one I was involved with was 2500V / 1300A, I think
[03:43:35] <SWPadnos> actually, there were others - a 60KA / 100V
[03:43:43] <jmkasunich> ah, meduim voltage
[03:43:48] <SWPadnos> low ;)
[03:43:48] <jmkasunich> well, the first one
[03:43:52] <SWPadnos> right
[03:44:20] <jmkasunich> changing voltage in this workcell really sucks
[03:44:23] <SWPadnos> I love their shorting bars for current tests
[03:44:50] <SWPadnos> they're 6-inch wide, 1/4 inch think copper bars, adn they use like 4-6 of them stacked
[03:44:57] <jmkasunich> the guy in the pic (my co-worker) is switching from direct 480V line to transformer power by moving bus jumpers
[03:45:25] <fenn> he doesnt have his glasses on - bad monky no banana
[03:45:27] <jmkasunich> but to actually change the transformer voltage you go outside, open the transformer up, climb inside, and move the taps
[03:45:28] <SWPadnos> you really want a positive indication that the power is off when working in those ;)
[03:45:39] <jmkasunich> 2500A breaker, locked out
[03:45:51] <skunkworks> wait wait wait. lets get back to my problem. Think I could tackle a servo drive that big? If so are there any circuts out there? I would rather not reinvent the wheel. :)
[03:46:05] <SWPadnos> ask bo-dick ;)
[03:46:09] <skunkworks> ouch
[03:46:13] <SWPadnos> heh\
[03:46:16] <skunkworks> :)
[03:46:44] <jmkasunich> 17 to 80A is getting up into the area where if you aren't good at power electronics already, you will be when you are done, and you'll have a large pile of fried semiconductors to prove it
[03:47:03] <SWPadnos> and/or your organs flying across the rom
[03:47:16] <jmkasunich> you'd be better off buying, unless you are determined to do it yourself and don't care if it actually costs you more $
[03:47:51] <skunkworks> that would be my next question - who makes a good 80 amp dc servo drive?
[03:47:59] <SWPadnos> that's probably true for anything over 50 watts
[03:48:27] <SWPadnos> Rutex makes a 40A drive
[03:48:38] <SWPadnos> and that's probably fine
[03:49:16] <skunkworks> I do have a degree in electronics so I do have an idea of what I am getting into.. (but it has been a hobby as my real job is in IT)
[03:49:31] <skunkworks> I will look at rutex
[03:49:39] <jmkasunich> power electronics is different
[03:49:48] <skunkworks> jmk - I know.
[03:49:49] <SWPadnos> ain't it so
[03:50:17] <jmkasunich> not saying you can't do it, but you gotta get used to dealing with the parts that don't show on the schematic (parasitics and strays)
[03:51:03] <SWPadnos> then there's optimization and performance tuning
[03:51:30] <skunkworks> I understand. I know I am over my head.
[03:51:49] <skunkworks> that is fun too sometimes. :)
[03:52:50] <SWPadnos> power electronics is like extreme sports
[03:52:56] <SWPadnos> fun until someone gets hurt ;)
[03:53:16] <SWPadnos> and when you get hurt, you *really* get hurt
[03:54:30] <jmkasunich> SWP: you exagerate
[03:55:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:55:31] <jmkasunich> mid power is the most dangerous.. high power you respect, low power won't hurt, mid power you get careless
[03:55:38] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:55:46] <SWPadnos> anyway - good night all
[03:55:48] <skunkworks> here is something funny - I was helping our electronic tech fix our laser. we had narrowed it down to the high voltage tubes. they where controlled by a fiber optic card. (this was all floating at 20kv or there abouts.) He started to run his voltmeter into the circut. I said - that is running at 20kv - he said - "its 5 volt logic" at this point a spark jumped 3 inches to his fluke.
[03:56:02] <jmkasunich> heh
[03:56:10] <jmkasunich> 5V logic floating 20Kv above ground
[03:56:17] <skunkworks> right
[03:56:31] <jmkasunich> fried logic after that spark, unless very well protected
[03:57:00] <jmkasunich> sparks are nasty, dV/dT and dI/dT are phenomenal
[03:57:24] <skunkworks> suprisingly it still worked. it ended up being one of the hv cables to the laser tube got too close to the frame. I finally turned the lights off and found it.
[03:57:44] <jmkasunich> ok,the spark wasn't from near the logic
[03:58:18] <skunkworks> from my angle it was - but I was backing away :)
[03:58:24] <jmkasunich> smart man
[03:58:37] <jmkasunich> I worry far more about arc flash than about getting shocked
[03:59:19] <skunkworks> well - I am off to dream about servo amps. Talk tomorrow - thanks for the help.
[04:18:53] <skunkworks> ok - one more stupid question. If I start looking for a circuit to scale. hypothetically speaking. do I need some form of velocity/current feedback for the amp - or could the amp be open loop and only one feedback loop from the encoder to emc.
[04:19:13] <skunkworks> and back.
[04:19:41] <skunkworks> Now I am sure you are thinking - if he has to ask this question.... humor me.
[04:20:01] <jmkasunich> I'd use current feedback at least
[04:20:52] <skunkworks> ok. thanks. these do have tachs on the back of them.
[04:21:03] <jmkasunich> analog tachs?
[04:21:06] <skunkworks> yes
[04:21:26] <jmkasunich> the do a velocity loop to, it will be easier to tune and perform better
[04:21:32] <skunkworks> ok
[04:22:01] <skunkworks> if I where to do it. ;) Just thinking.
[04:22:58] <skunkworks> jmk - have you been exposed to a lot of position feedback devices?
[04:23:10] <jmkasunich> not really
[04:23:14] <jmkasunich> encoders and resolvers
[04:24:27] <skunkworks> ok - this machine has what they called accupins. it was a .1" pin spaced ever .1" they some how enduced a magnetic field into it and divided it down to .0001" - I think it output some sort of sin/cos
[04:25:06] <skunkworks> it would be nice to be able to use it instead of a encoder on the shaft.
[04:25:48] <skunkworks> going to have to break out the old manuals and take a look. I know there is reslover to encoder circuits - maybe something similar would work for this
[04:26:59] <skunkworks> another project :)
[04:27:33] <skunkworks> oops battery is going bad. night again.
[04:27:37] <skunkworks> dead
[04:38:38] <fenn> sounds like a LVDS(?) sensor
[04:38:44] <fenn> i know i'm getting my acronyms fudged
[04:39:38] <fenn> LVDT
[05:48:17] <Jymmm> whats that?
[07:25:24] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymmmm
[08:23:15] <anonimasu> yawn*
[08:28:02] <alex_joni> morning anders
[08:31:50] <anonimasu> morning
[08:32:23] <anonimasu> what's up today=
[08:32:25] <anonimasu> I just got to work
[08:35:47] <alex_joni> not much :)
[08:37:37] <anonimasu> I am toying with this touchscreen plc..
[08:38:21] <alex_joni> heh.. nice
[08:41:31] <anonimasu> cant wait until I can go home and rest
[08:45:37] <alex_joni> huh, but it's not even 11am there
[08:45:38] <alex_joni> :)
[08:46:23] <anonimasu> yeah :/
[10:33:11] <Bo-Dick> i've got a question about my stepper driver. it appears that if the driver triggers all pulses twice somehow. does anyone have an idea what could cause this behaviour? i'm runnin' full step mode. http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/img/scope.gif
[10:38:28] <anonimasu> I know what that slope is..
[10:38:43] <anonimasu> ^_^
[10:39:10] <anonimasu> err not the double triggering but the slope..
[10:39:57] <anonimasu> I am not sure if that's a problem with stepper drivers..
[10:41:25] <anonimasu> try adding a protection diode..
[10:47:24] <Bo-Dick> i've got diodes over the h-bridges
[10:51:24] <anonimasu> it's kind of weird..
[10:51:40] <anonimasu> what happens if you trigger it manually. like once?
[10:51:57] <anonimasu> are you triggering it with a switch or something?
[10:58:58] <Bo-Dick> its triggered with a TTL circuit board.
[10:59:07] <Bo-Dick> http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/Projects/logic.jpg
[11:00:28] <anonimasu> hook your scope up in the middle of the circuit..
[11:00:31] <anonimasu> :)
[11:00:39] <anonimasu> nice
[12:24:54] <skunkworks> rutex seems to only sell servo drives with step/dir. - are there any small companies selling +/-10 in drives in the 50+ amp range?
[12:25:46] <alex_joni> you can get something liek that from JonE?
[12:27:01] <skunkworks> was he hosting some of the masak pictures - I think I was on his site a few days ago. Let me look
[12:27:29] <alex_joni> http://pico-systems.com/pwmservo.html
[12:31:04] <skunkworks> that has pwm in. (I wonder if this has been used the way jmk set up his hbridge in emc - though parallel port using stepmod or whatever)
[12:32:22] <alex_joni> not really, but close
[12:32:35] <alex_joni> JonE has a thingie called univpwm which connects to EMC by parport
[12:32:54] <alex_joni> the univpwm has a FPGA onboard which generates the PWM's based on commands from EMC
[12:32:56] <skunkworks> ah - cool
[12:34:25] <skunkworks> I suppose that would run faster. than trying to generate pulses from the parrallel port
[12:35:10] <rayh> The univpwm stuff is very nice but the upper limit for power is 100v 20a continuous.
[12:35:24] <rayh> A bit less than 3 hp.
[12:36:11] <rayh> I used the PWM and his axis drives on a lathe. Wonderful stuff.
[12:36:26] <jepler_> skunkworks: "The PWM frequency is determined by the motion controller, but should be between 25 and 100 Khz". You can attain 20kHz to 50kHz easily, and maybe up to 80kHz, on the parallel port (base_period=6.4us).
[12:37:16] <jepler_> skunkworks: Somewhere, related to the L/R time constant of the motor you're driving, higher frequency PWM pulses don't improve the speed control.
[12:38:32] <jepler_> rayh: where do you see 100v? I see "up to 160v", but it doesn't say whether that's continuous.
[12:40:56] <skunkworks> hm. I have been waffling between throwing togather a h-brigde and runing it from 2 pwm signals from i/0 (parrallelport to start) just because computers that would handle that are pretty cheap.
[12:41:36] <alex_joni> skunkworks: right, but you need ways for encoder feedback
[12:41:46] <jepler_> skunkworks: that does work, at least for toy motors.
[12:41:47] <alex_joni> to close the PID loop you need there, because you are commanding velocity
[12:42:02] <skunkworks> which could be done with i/o also - I assume
[12:42:21] <skunkworks> running it back into the parrallel port.
[12:42:24] <alex_joni> right, but that fastly gets you short on pins
[12:42:30] <alex_joni> if you use 1 parport only
[12:42:31] <rayh> Ah. The ones I have here are a bit older, sorry for the confusion.
[12:42:44] <jepler_> You need 2 outputs and 2 inputs per axis
[12:42:50] <skunkworks> right
[12:42:59] <alex_joni> jepler_: for a basic setup
[12:43:10] <alex_joni> without limit switches, or home switches or index pulses
[12:43:18] <jepler_> alex_joni: yes, just for the basics
[12:43:22] <skunkworks> http://www.futurlec.com/PCI8255.shtml or buy more parralel ports ;)
[12:43:34] <alex_joni> skunkworks: I have a PCI 2-parport card
[12:43:41] <alex_joni> plus the parport onboard
[12:43:44] <alex_joni> should be plenty ;)
[12:43:46] <jepler_> skunkworks: Here's my H-bridge on the parallel port: http://emergent.unpythonic.net/projects/01142347802
[12:43:48] <skunkworks> right
[12:43:52] <alex_joni> and it is running at 80kHz+
[12:43:58] <rayh> IMO -- If you can buy it, you will save big time over making it.
[12:44:08] <skunkworks> is that running the etch-sketch?
[12:44:17] <jepler_> skunkworks: yeah, that's the servo upgrade for the etch-a-sketch
[12:44:33] <skunkworks> nice
[12:44:39] <rayh> more pwm sigs than you can use can be had at Mesa for $200.
[12:45:28] <rayh> PICO univpwm is a dedicated, ready to run solution for ~250
[12:46:06] <jepler_> you also run into limits reading the feedback if it's very many pulses per second .. again, it's related to BASE_PERIOD if you try to do it all with dumb I/O like the parport.
[12:47:00] <skunkworks> rayh - I am looking for something that could be done with minimal to no programming :) but the pico card does look nice (and would require no programming I would think)
[12:47:58] <rayh> The only issue I had with it here was the handshaking routine he built in. My athalon64 was to fast for it.
[12:48:10] <rayh> He's fixed that now I think.
[12:48:26] <rayh> I had not problem with the 800 via board on the lathe.
[12:48:28] <jepler_> is there univpwm support in emc2?
[12:48:53] <rayh> Yes. I've not tuned with it yet but jmk did the config
[12:49:52] <rayh> I was tuning a m5i20 setup with little pittman motors last night.
[12:50:13] <rayh> The config and fpga stuff for it is pwm out for 4 axes.
[12:50:35] <alex_joni> jepler_: all the univ* cards should now work in emc2
[12:51:18] <rayh> They are supposed to. I've got a set of the older cards but have not hooked them up yet.
[12:51:19] <skunkworks> rayh: where the pitman motors out of old printers?
[12:51:59] <rayh> I think so. I got them surplus from candhsales.com. But that was years ago on a trip west.
[12:52:20] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?LadderProgramming
[12:53:18] <skunkworks> my plc was a little rusty but it is coming back. :) Nice work.
[12:54:00] <jepler_> alex_joni: I sure understand ladder programming better than before after reading that
[12:55:05] <alex_joni> jepler_: heh, then it was worth to write it..
[12:55:09] <alex_joni> it needs expanding though..
[12:55:35] <alex_joni> but I think it's over the scope of our wiki, there are lots of ladder infos (should link them)
[12:56:21] <jepler_> I'm also never sure how much to document in the wiki, as opposed to linking out. When explaining CVS, for instance.
[12:57:55] <alex_joni> I think minimal stuff can be in the wiki
[12:59:51] <jepler_> maybe a "five minute rule": if it's less than 5 minutes to read and understand, then put it in the wiki; if it's more, link to another resource where it's explained in depth.
[12:59:52] <skunkworks> what is mesa's site? rayh: how are you comunicating between the pc and the card
[13:00:06] <jepler_> http://www.mesanet.com
[13:00:14] <jepler_> skunkworks: the m5i20 is a PCI card
[13:00:29] <skunkworks> thanks jepler - I thought I was there yesteday
[13:03:36] <skunkworks> cool - that plugs into a pci slot. There is already drivers for emc2 - when was that done?
[13:03:57] <jepler_> quite a long time ago, I think
[13:04:01] <skunkworks> nice
[13:04:42] <skunkworks> rayh: what are you using for the final stage to run the servos?
[13:05:10] <skunkworks> or are you using the bridge that is on there?
[13:11:21] <rayh> phone brb
[13:11:30] <rayh> 7i33
[13:17:16] <skunkworks> nice
[13:20:06] <les_w> morning
[13:20:40] <skunkworks> morning
[13:21:15] <les_w> how's the weather up there? cold I guess
[13:22:17] <rayh> Snowing and winter today.
[13:22:25] <skunkworks> supposed to be low 60's today. it was 32 when I got up.
[13:22:35] <anonimasu> skunkworks: for your information.. the picosystems stuff rocks..
[13:22:36] <anonimasu> :)
[13:22:39] <rayh> That'll be nice.
[13:23:05] <anonimasu> I have a usc and a gecko feedback board..
[13:23:25] <skunkworks> nice - usc?
[13:23:30] <anonimasu> the stepper controller
[13:23:34] <les_w> wow same here 34 this morning
[13:23:35] <skunkworks> ah
[13:23:51] <anonimasu> running step servos(g340's)
[13:24:01] <anonimasu> err with..
[13:24:24] <skunkworks> why do you need the pico hardware?
[13:24:46] <anonimasu> because the parport wont push enough pulses per second..
[13:24:53] <skunkworks> ok
[13:24:57] <anonimasu> not nearly..
[13:25:55] <rayh> Looks like 18f here now.
[13:26:15] <skunkworks> I see there is a lot of solutions - still need the power stage though.
[13:26:28] <anonimasu> not with the univpwm..
[13:26:47] <skunkworks> I need over 50 amps.
[13:27:09] <anonimasu> ah :9
[13:27:20] <skunkworks> I will rephrase that - I would like to have over 50 amps preferbly 80
[13:27:42] <anonimasu> are there any amps on the machine now?
[13:28:28] <skunkworks> all we have are the servos. the machine we want to put them on is hydrolic
[13:29:01] <anonimasu> hm that stuff will be $$$
[13:29:54] <anonimasu> http://www.ostergrens.se/pdffiler/3-2-415t.pdf
[13:33:04] <rayh> I did talk with JonE at pico about building me a 100 amp 100 volt driver.
[13:33:08] <rayh> for his pwm.
[13:33:21] <rayh> He said it could be done.
[13:33:27] <anonimasu> hehe
[13:33:30] <anonimasu> nice
[13:33:38] <rayh> Packaging would have to be different.
[13:34:03] <skunkworks> wow that is what we are looking for. the pdf is in english - while the site is in german?
[13:34:21] <anonimasu> swedish..
[13:34:38] <skunkworks> prices?
[13:34:42] <anonimasu> expensive?
[13:34:47] <skunkworks> samn
[13:34:48] <skunkworks> damn
[13:34:55] <anonimasu> probably
[13:35:28] <skunkworks> rayh - I could test them for jon ;)
[13:36:44] <anonimasu> skunkworks: I'd say ver $1000 per amp..
[13:36:54] <anonimasu> guess..
[13:36:54] <anonimasu> way oevr..
[13:36:56] <anonimasu> over..
[13:36:57] <rayh> I'm sure he'd have several testbeds. That would really solidify his hold on retrofitting DC systems.
[13:38:28] <Bo-Dick_> i'm back again. some stuff got in between
[13:39:21] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:41:09] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes away
[13:44:46] <Bo-Dick_> still struggling to understand this double pulse behaviour: http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/img/scope.gif
[13:52:31] <jepler_> where did "figure 1" come from? what is the "Y" axis on the graph?
[13:53:11] <jepler_> neither graph looks like what I expect from a constant current driver
[13:53:15] <Bo-Dick_> y-axis: voltage over motor coil x-axis: time
[13:53:48] <jepler_> Usually you would measure constant current by measuring current
[13:54:07] <jepler_> i.e., across the current sense resistor in a traditional chopper design
[13:55:43] <jepler_> the voltage measured across the sense resistor is directly proportional to the current
[13:55:58] <jepler_> since the motor is an inductor, I'm not sure what relationship there is between the voltage and the current.
[13:56:19] <Bo-Dick_> so you mean that the operation of my stepper driver might be in order then?
[13:56:49] <jepler_> When you measure the current in the way I describe you should see a waveform that looks like the one on page 4 of http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/an/1679.pdf
[13:59:26] <Bo-Dick_> i think i might have an idea what causes this behaviour now. i think it has to do with the fact that i've only one current limiter for both coils in the stepper motor.
[14:02:39] <Bo-Dick_> i'm gonna try to see if the situation changes when i have a separate current limiting circuit for each coil in the motor
[14:43:22] <jepler_> Here's a list of wiki pages that list the old CVS server: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?dosearch=1&search=cvs.sourceforge.net
[14:43:28] <jepler_> I'll fix up the "CVS" page itself; any takers on the other pages?
[14:43:54] <jepler_> cradek: are we OK to commit now?
[14:44:03] <cradek> jepler_: yes
[14:49:46] <jepler_> cradek: will you look over the wiki page http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CVS and make sure I got everything right?
[14:50:01] <jepler_> cradek: given the speed of the link, I think a higher -z value is probably appropriate; I picked -z5
[14:50:13] <jepler_> I notice you didn't give a -z level in your mailing list message.
[14:50:28] <cradek> hmm
[14:50:36] <cradek> I think you have an extra one in yours
[14:50:40] <jepler_> do I?
[14:50:46] <cradek> cvs -z5 -d:ext:<username>@cvs.linuxcnc.org:/cvs co -z5 emc2
[14:50:47] <jepler_> oops, I thought I corrected that
[14:50:52] <jepler_> I must have made the same error twice
[14:51:05] <jepler_> fixed
[14:52:11] <jepler_> I already found one feature not in the new cvsweb: the ability to link to the revision of a file with a particular tag. e.g., http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/nc_files/threading.ngc?rev=TESTING
[14:52:58] <jepler_> though rev=HEAD seems to work
[14:53:07] <cradek> I'm pretty sure you can do that
[14:53:56] <cradek> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/nc_files/threading.ngc?rev=1.3;only_with_tag=TESTING
[14:54:04] <cradek> ??
[14:54:15] <jepler_> I don't think that's it.
[14:54:37] <jepler_> because this is version 1.4, not TESTING: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/nc_files/threading.ngc?rev=1.4;only_with_tag=TESTING
[14:54:43] <cradek> hmm I see what you mean
[14:55:16] <rayh> Don't you hate whiners!
[14:55:35] <jepler_> huh. I don't understand why this would give version 1.3: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/nc_files/threading.ngc?rev=HEAD;only_with_tag=TESTING
[14:55:43] <roltek> rayh what you doing
[14:56:06] <rayh> I'm writing this morning.
[14:56:22] <roltek> the book
[14:57:15] <rayh> The book and an email reply to the current cvs flap.
[14:57:42] <roltek> what you say about whiners
[14:58:17] <rayh> a joke about the new cvs stuff.
[14:58:33] <rayh> I'm sure we will find changes.
[14:59:00] <rayh> I do need you to get a checkout of it so you will have everything in one place.
[14:59:09] <roltek> you have a nice day ,have meeting to go to
[14:59:31] <jepler_> rayh: what book is this?
[14:59:32] <rayh> See you.
[14:59:59] <rayh> I'm planning a pile of handouts for fest.
[15:00:16] <rayh> That will find their way into the complete EMC2 handbook.
[15:00:17] <jepler_> I hope you won't be killing too many trees
[15:00:34] <rayh> It'll be on line also.
[15:00:39] <jepler_> great
[15:00:43] <jepler_> ooh, I have a meeting to attend too
[15:00:53] <rayh> See you.
[16:13:42] <skunkworks> roltek: ?
[16:31:32] <skunkworks> I would think a step and direction servo setup with endoder feed back to emc would work "ok" wouldn't it?
[16:32:13] <skunkworks> it isn't like a stepper where you can't push it harder to make more torque
[16:32:31] <skunkworks> * skunkworks thinking out loud again
[16:36:40] <skunkworks> I guess it doesn't really matter - if the step/direction drive isn't getting where emc wants it to go - it will probably error itself. (emc and the step/dir servo drive should be set with the same max accelleration and max vel
[16:36:43] <skunkworks> )
[16:38:06] <skunkworks> or emc should be a little less for headroom.
[16:39:15] <rayh> The gecko 320/340 trip out quickly if the servo lags.
[16:39:34] <rayh> the rutex will count a lot further before they trip.
[16:40:40] <rayh> IMO either of these solutions would require some sort of device to send the encoder to both the drive and the emc.
[16:40:58] <rayh> Rutex does have that serial interface but I've not tried it.
[16:43:41] <skunkworks> * skunkworks was looking at the rutex as they are higher amperage
[16:44:09] <Jymmmm> On Wednesday of this week, at two minutes and three seconds after 1:00 in the morning, the time and date will be 01:02:03 04/05/06. That won't ever happen again. You may now return to your (normal ?) life.
[16:44:12] <skunkworks> looks like the following error is settable in the rutex -
[16:44:27] <skunkworks> error count
[16:45:02] <skunkworks> Following Error Trip adjustable from +/- 2 to +/-32766
[16:50:22] <rayh> Ah the new rutex.
[16:50:31] <Jymmmm> Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm
[16:51:00] <rayh> Right. I liked the 32k but you had to be careful with estop, hand rotation of an axis and restart.
[16:51:22] <skunkworks> jeepers ray - how many drive systems have you played with?
[16:52:47] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has been meaning to ask rayh what he does
[16:54:32] <skunkworks> I would love to be able to use the scales that are currently on the K&T
[16:59:17] <Jymmm> If you have scale already, I'd suspect a conversion box is all you would need.
[17:00:08] <skunkworks> yes - I need to look at the current circuit. I think it outputs a sin-cos signal like a resolver.
[17:00:13] <fogl> hello, yesterday i was reading the emc wiki about "testing", but today, thare is nothing written about that any more...did someone erase that page ( http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Testing )?
[17:03:57] <Jymmm> JeffEpler [remove stuff which is now better documented on Installing emc2]
[17:04:32] <Jymmm> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[17:05:04] <Jymmm> fogl Talk to jepler_, he made the edits
[17:15:08] <rayh> Jymmm, I consult and repair machine tools.
[17:15:58] <rayh> and toss in some electrical work in the area here.
[17:24:19] <Jymmm> rayh: Heh, the way you say it, sounds like you drive around in an old pickup truck and hand carried toolbox that you've had for 20+ years. I AINT BUYING IT! =)
[17:25:15] <Jymmm> rayh: oh, and overalls too
[17:26:07] <rayh> Nope no overalls but I've got the same hammer I used 45 years ago. And the tool box is really beat up.
[17:26:38] <Jymmm> Well 2 out of 3 aint bad, and the pick em up truck?
[17:28:17] <rayh> Had one with about 230k miles. Died a while back so drive an old mazda car.
[17:28:34] <Jymmm> Delrin/Acetal Remnants (25 lbs)(6 x 6 or larger), 25 lbs = $50
[17:28:42] <Jymmm> rayh: ok, fair enough =)
[17:29:03] <rayh> And now you know the rest of the story.
[17:29:42] <Jymmm> I seriously doubt that, you're a hair smarter than you let on =)
[17:31:46] <jepler_> fogl: I'm open to other alternatives, but recently I've been working to remove duplicated information from the wiki, instead using links between pages.
[17:32:02] <jepler_> fogl: I feel the duplicated information is bad, because often one copy is updated but another isn't, leading to incorrect or misleading information.
[17:32:22] <jepler_> fogl: On the page 'Testing' there is a link to 'Installing EMC2'.
[17:32:49] <Jymmm> jepler_: ...Which referse back to the TESTING link
[17:32:56] <Jymmm> refers
[17:34:32] <jepler_> I'll take a look at the old version of the 'Testing' page to see if there's some information that got lost due to my changes.
[17:35:13] <jepler_> Here's the version from before my edits: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?action=browse&id=Testing&revision=16
[17:36:47] <jepler_> do you see something that got lost? I still don't see anything.
[17:39:01] <Jymmm> If you compare that link with http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 theres a lot of detailed instructions missing.
[17:41:12] <Jymmm> IMO having duplicate info isn't such a "bad thing" compared to missing info.
[17:41:30] <cradek> on the other hand, overwhelming is bad
[17:41:58] <Jymmm> full documentaton for emc is far from overwhelming
[17:42:25] <Jymmm> there are FAR too many chances and documentation isn't keeping up.
[17:42:37] <Jymmm> s/chances/changes/
[17:42:54] <jepler_> "Preparing your system" is covered for ubuntu on 'Installing EMC2' and for other systems with links to other pages
[17:43:05] <jepler_> "Checking out from CVS" is covered by the link to the page 'CVS'
[17:43:20] <Jymmm> jepler_: and doesnt have the detailed instruction
[17:44:04] <jepler_> which To do an anonymous checkout, type the following at a shell prompt:
[17:44:04] <jepler_> export CVS_RSH=ssh
[17:44:04] <jepler_> cvs -z5 -d:ext:anon@cvs.linuxcnc.org:/cvs co emc2
[17:44:09] <jepler_> If you are checking out a tag or a branch, specify it on the co commandline with "-r TAG_OR_BRANCH":
[17:44:12] <jepler_> ... co -rTESTING emc2
[17:47:26] <Jymmm> You guys write nice code, but suck at docs.
[17:47:39] <cradek> Jymmm: volunteers gladly accepted
[17:47:42] <Jymmm> You assume EVERYONE uses cvs, or even knows what it is.
[17:47:56] <Jymmm> cradek: Give me a list of specified goals
[17:48:22] <cradek> Jymmm: the first install procedure on the list does not use cvs, and is meant for non-developers.
[17:48:23] <jepler_> I don't think I assume that; "Installing EMC2" gives 3 methods to get the source (cvs, apt-get, and tarballs)
[17:51:42] <jepler_> I don't believe I did a perfect job, and I welcome any improvements you'd like to make.
[17:52:10] <Jymmm> "After preparing your system " <--- define preparing? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[17:52:26] <jepler_> I didn't start with a list of specified goals either, fwiw. Just trying to do what I said: make sure stuff was up to date, and easier to keep up to date
[17:52:31] <Jymmm> Believe me when I say that I do know and realize that tech writing is a mother fucker.
[17:52:39] <skunkworks> I take it you guys moved csv to another site. - is source forge csv still down?
[17:52:48] <jepler_> skunkworks: yeah, at last report it's still down.
[17:52:57] <jepler_> skunkworks: but you can get a checkout from the new site now.
[17:53:06] <cradek> Jymmm: "Preparing" is explained in step 3
[17:53:18] <skunkworks> not a big deal right now - we have been using the ubuntu updates.
[17:53:39] <Jymmm> cradek: I'm at step #2, why would I look at step 3?
[17:55:15] <jepler_> I chose to put the items out of order so that I covered the general stuff first and the specific (distribution-specific and source-specific) details later.
[17:55:39] <Jymmm> I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, really. But following the docs top to bottom is confusing and difficult for the ignorant, myself included. I feel that I'm jumping back and forrth all over the place just trying to make heads or tails of it all.
[17:56:19] <jepler_> I understand that.
[17:56:34] <jepler_> (in particular that you're not being an asshole)
[17:58:16] <Jymmm> This is why I HATE wikis, it's just a bunch of electronic post-it notes.
[17:58:50] <jepler_> I hate the wiki that is a message board even more.
[17:59:02] <rayh> We do need to find an editor for the wiki. jepler has the right idea.
[17:59:26] <Jymmm> colaberation tool with inline user editing/review
[17:59:27] <jepler_> "jepler says this page has too many words on it and should be pared down. rayh thinks it's just fine, but the text should be smaller so it fits on one page"
[17:59:37] <jepler_> (or whatever)
[17:59:42] <jepler_> the tcl/tk wiki is the worst example of that I know of
[17:59:49] <Jymmm> jepler_ well ray cna change the font size in his browser =)
[18:00:09] <jepler_> Jymmm: I know that, it was just the first made-up example I could think of.
[18:00:16] <Jymmm> jepler_ =)
[18:00:28] <cradek> File does not exist: /usr/local/www/data/favicon.ico
[18:00:44] <alex_joni> cradek: where did you get that?
[18:00:53] <jepler_> cradek: all web browsers these days try to fetch favicon.ico
[18:00:53] <cradek> fwiw, contribution of a favicon for cvs.linuxcnc.org is requested
[18:01:07] <alex_joni> there is one at www.linuxcnc.org
[18:01:11] <cradek> I know, maybe someone will generate one for me
[18:01:15] <cradek> alex_joni: url?
[18:01:27] <Jymmm> www.linuxcnc.org/favison.ico
[18:01:32] <Jymmm> www.linuxcnc.org/favicon.ico
[18:01:41] <cradek> The requested URL /favicon.ico was not found on this server.
[18:01:45] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/images/favicon2.png
[18:02:10] <alex_joni> why name it favicon.ico? then everyone would find it :D
[18:02:39] <cradek> .ico is a png?
[18:02:45] <Jymmm> no
[18:03:09] <cradek> ok someone find me the file I name favicon.ico please
[18:03:13] <alex_joni> no, .ico is a doze thing
[18:03:32] <alex_joni> rename it, the browsers will know how to handle it I think
[18:03:42] <Jymmm> no they wont
[18:03:53] <Jymmm> gimma a few to convert it to ico format
[18:04:17] <Jymmm> I also need an email address to send it to
[18:04:28] <cradek> chris@timeguy.com
[18:08:36] <Jymmm> cradek on it's way
[18:08:48] <cradek> thank you
[18:09:15] <Jymmm> cradek: np, favicon's are a real bitch to create
[18:09:36] <Jymmm> the format is weird, but I have a utility specifically for creating them
[18:09:49] <Jymmm> Even imagemagick screws up creating them
[18:10:48] <jepler_> Jymmm: I know it won't address all your concerns, but I made some edits to the Installing EMC2 page. In particular, "preparing your system" and "getting the source code" are now links within the page.
[18:11:55] <Jymmm> jepler_: I wasn't really bitching about those items as much as just pointing out the "Say what?" =)
[18:27:54] <cradek> Jymmm: thanks for doing the ico, it looks fine
[18:28:48] <alex_joni> yay, looks nice ;)
[18:29:28] <cradek> it kind of looks like "unc 2" to me
[18:29:44] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[18:29:59] <alex_joni> it's hard to make it more readable
[18:30:10] <cradek> yeah, it's fine
[18:30:22] <alex_joni> it was a 5-minute thing
[18:30:39] <alex_joni> I surely would replace it with a better version.. if someone else wants to do a better one
[18:52:30] <Jymmm> cradek: np
[18:52:47] <Jymmm> the specs of favison iirc limit to 16 or 256 colors
[18:52:51] <Jymmm> favicon
[18:56:10] <Jymmm> anyone know who created that PNG ?
[19:04:06] <alex_joni> * alex_joni did
[19:04:51] <Jymmm> did you just pick colors at random sort kinda?
[19:05:25] <jepler_> seems like you couldn't have more than 256 colors in a 16x16 image :-P
[19:05:55] <Jymmm> in the 16x16 not really, but in the 32x32 you can
[19:06:01] <Jymmm> iirc
[19:20:48] <K4ts> heila hello
[19:20:58] <giacus> ciao
[19:20:58] <K4ts> :-)
[19:47:47] <Jymmm> alex_joni: If you create a 32x32 PNG that only contains 256 colors, I can easily recreate the ICO file. You can use 16M colors, but the final image has to only contain 256.
[19:48:25] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Tahoma or Verdana font face looks the shrpest at small point sizes.
[19:48:33] <Jymmm> sharpest
[19:48:43] <Jymmm> Dont alias the text either.
[19:48:43] <alex_joni> I love verdana
[19:50:21] <Jymmm> It might even be better to create it as a vector, then convert it to a PNG
[19:55:31] <alex_joni> Jymmm: you seem that you know what you're talking about :)
[19:55:54] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Does that surprise you?
[20:02:43] <alex_joni> no, it surprises that you haven't done one by now :)
[20:02:55] <alex_joni> it would be a nice contribution to the community ;)
[21:40:19] <bill2or3> anyone know much about AVRs?
[21:47:52] <alex_joni> bill2or3: not much
[21:47:55] <alex_joni> but you can ask
[21:48:50] <bill2or3> just wondering if the 'butterfly' is the way to go for learning them.
[21:49:01] <bill2or3> of if there's some other/better starter hardware.
[21:49:02] <alex_joni> buttefly?
[21:49:12] <alex_joni> never heard
[21:49:22] <bill2or3> www.atmel.com/products/AVR/butterfly
[21:49:37] <alex_joni> I started on the ethernut.de
[21:49:54] <alex_joni> ATMega128, very powerfull, with LAN & all that you might need
[21:50:00] <alex_joni> full OS
[22:05:19] <bill2or3> so plenty of juice for getting my feet wet.
[22:06:30] <alex_joni> yeah, but not very cheap (about 100+/piece)
[22:08:17] <bill2or3> oof.
[22:08:26] <bill2or3> I'll go with the $20 I think.
[22:09:16] <alex_joni> bill2or3: suit yourself, $20 sounds ok for starters
[22:09:31] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is off to bed
[22:09:35] <bill2or3> good nigyht.
[22:09:48] <alex_joni> g'night
[22:52:29] <jepler_> bill2or3: I think Butterfly is considered a nice start by many people.
[22:53:09] <jepler_> bill2or3: I started with an at902313, a 6.mumble MHz crystal, and a parallel port programmer -- less than $20, but also not as interesting as the butterfly.
[22:55:48] <bill2or3> yeah, seems like you can get started w/ the avr right away, rather than worrying about support circuitry.
[23:00:21] <jepler_> I just read about the butterfly. It sounds like there's enough stuff there to let you see many of the capabilities of the AVR. I might have started with it if I'd known about it.
[23:00:38] <bill2or3> it must be a fairly new product.
[23:00:54] <bill2or3> I just want to blink some led's, and maybe move some motors.
[23:00:59] <bill2or3> nothing too fancy.
[23:02:18] <bill2or3> and build an unstoppable army of killer robots, of course.
[23:02:23] <jepler_> of course
[23:02:38] <jepler_> I think ARM is probably better than AVR for high-power applications like that
[23:03:11] <bill2or3> I'll have to do something small that attacks in swarms.
[23:05:00] <jepler_> the 8-pin attinys might be a good choice for killer swarms
[23:05:14] <jepler_> but some people will tell you to do that in discrete/analog electronics...
[23:05:47] <bill2or3> beam bots are too cute to kill people.
[23:05:55] <bill2or3> heh :-)
[23:09:25] <LawrenceG> * LawrenceG hides in shame.... having to install xp inside qemu to run a windows program.. {
[23:21:30] <dmessier> bonjour tous.. ; )
[23:24:45] <anonimasu> heh
[23:24:51] <anonimasu> how fast is win in qemu?
[23:25:12] <giacus> hello
[23:25:17] <giacus> wich win ?
[23:25:41] <giacus> xp ?
[23:31:51] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:31:55] <anonimasu> or 2k
[23:32:12] <giacus> I tried it some year ago
[23:32:17] <giacus> 2k I mean
[23:32:38] <LawrenceG> well was running 98 under qemu,,, just trying xp
[23:32:45] <giacus> was very hard to upgrade SP2
[23:33:04] <giacus> just with a good hack ..
[23:33:18] <giacus> an a bit of luck :)
[23:33:30] <giacus> never tried xp
[23:34:10] <giacus> and it was also very slow for video
[23:34:27] <giacus> if you have to use 3D cad, there's no 3D :(
[23:34:30] <giacus> accell
[23:34:35] <anonimasu> hm, I run win2k under vmware works it's fast enough but not fast enough for developing in..
[23:34:58] <giacus> I use vmware too
[23:35:28] <giacus> but qemu dont have 3D accell
[23:35:32] <LawrenceG> my 2.4ghz box running 98 underqemu ran like about a 300mhz windows pc..not bad for developing
[23:35:51] <giacus> LawrenceG: yeah
[23:36:02] <giacus> I run a cad in 2k
[23:36:20] <giacus> the only reason Ive doze yet installed :(
[23:36:23] <LawrenceG> kqemu was not a real big help.... project to 50sec to compile with kqemu and 70sec without
[23:38:20] <anonimasu> LawrenceG: I need to run visual studio at work..
[23:41:02] <LawrenceG> anonimasu: that would be painful, but would work.... I havent done much windows stuff for about 10 years...
[23:42:41] <anonimasu> hm better run windows on the work laptop
[23:42:42] <anonimasu> :)
[23:43:36] <dmessier> Giacus.. what CAD
[23:46:21] <giacus> qcad :)
[23:46:59] <dmessier> spin off of easy-cad
[23:47:22] <giacus> thats the black hole my friend.. :(
[23:47:36] <giacus> opensource need a good cad
[23:48:26] <giacus> /cam
[23:48:29] <dmessier> synergy
[23:48:49] <fenn> runs-on-linux != opensource
[23:49:08] <anonimasu> ah I wish there were something free that would compete with solidworks..
[23:49:22] <fenn> yep doesnt need a whole lot of fancies
[23:49:22] <dmessier> open source old helix code was out there..
[23:49:49] <anonimasu> actually solidworks is pretty hard to beat..
[23:49:53] <dmessier> and helix is old mold toolsware
[23:50:07] <anonimasu> I ran solidedge for a bit as demo at work..
[23:50:13] <anonimasu> compared to sw it sucked..
[23:50:22] <fenn> parametrics, CSG, some lofting or nurbs surfaces
[23:50:24] <dmessier> Catia kicks ass when you got the background
[23:50:29] <anonimasu> way too complicated..
[23:50:33] <anonimasu> dmessier: yeah catia's nice..
[23:50:43] <dmessier> want it..
[23:50:47] <anonimasu> me?
[23:50:50] <dmessier> opps
[23:50:57] <dmessier> thought that
[23:50:58] <fenn> heheh
[23:51:03] <anonimasu> lol
[23:51:12] <anonimasu> not really..
[23:51:22] <dmessier> its sweet
[23:51:28] <Jymmm> * Jymmm ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H the log files
[23:51:37] <dmessier> and the way of future jobs
[23:51:42] <anonimasu> yeah, but solidworks is still a better match for me :)
[23:51:53] <dmessier> why??
[23:52:07] <anonimasu> I dont know really I found catia to be way over what I needed..
[23:52:21] <dmessier> it is all of IT
[23:52:27] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:52:56] <dmessier> and i have a costomizable post generator... hehehe
[23:53:17] <anonimasu> :)
[23:53:23] <dmessier> i can post ANYTHING
[23:53:25] <giacus> hey guys, perhaps do you know a good lyx-xhtml converter ?
[23:53:41] <giacus> bad too .. if you know it :)
[23:54:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:54:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu goes back to bed
[23:54:39] <anonimasu> I am dead tired
[23:54:41] <dmessier> EXCEPT an old legacy APT.cl file format... (binary?? odd bit?? packed??)
[23:55:15] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:55:16] <anonimasu> night
[23:55:24] <giacus> G night anonimasu
[23:55:50] <dmessier> looks for dos 3.6X or if pukes
[23:56:33] <dmessier> this IS the post that ALL major posts are based on
[23:56:51] <fenn> the motherpost
[23:57:01] <dmessier> ICAM... GPOST...
[23:57:13] <dmessier> IntelliPost
[23:57:36] <dmessier> all have the same source i have
[23:58:17] <dmessier> but my *.cl file isnt manreadable.