#emc | Logs for 2006-03-25

[00:34:19] <fenn> jmkasunich: http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/camera/DCP_0606.JPG
[00:35:24] <jmkasunich> what are you using for a backlight?
[00:36:01] <fenn> the backlight
[00:36:18] <jmkasunich> I thought it was busted?
[00:36:28] <fenn> i found that if i plugged in CN02 halfway it turns on
[00:36:38] <fenn> i think it's a min. brightness still
[00:36:52] <fenn> that's the one with backlight enable and brightness control
[00:37:38] <fenn> i had the little one working fine and then i foolishly reset the display settings to defaults (and it broke forever)
[00:38:18] <fenn> need to replace the fuses in the other big one now
[00:38:47] <fenn> or figure out what's going wrong with this one
[00:42:31] <fenn> i'm using a 12V 2A wall wart to power it
[00:42:38] <fenn> it draws about 1A
[01:20:56] <jmkasunich> which one is that, the one that was gutted?
[01:23:30] <alex_joni> he's gone
[01:23:45] <jmkasunich> duh ;-)
[01:43:48] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[01:45:10] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, What??
[01:52:16] <CIA-10> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: added some minimal functionality to prove that it works, right now from HAL machine on/off can be toggled by using 2 pins. Names have changed a lot, final naming is not 100% decided
[02:17:12] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: nuttin.
[02:17:27] <SWPadnos> ok then
[02:17:45] <CIA-10> 03jmkasunich * 10emc2/bin/ (.cvsignore emc-config.in): removed emc-config.in, it is no longer used
[02:17:49] <SWPadnos> so, it looks like the average temperature there for this time of year is around 70-ish
[02:18:24] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: But if you're going into the city (SF), you bring a jacket with you all year long.
[02:18:35] <SWPadnos> heh - I know that one ;)
[02:18:55] <SWPadnos> I may do that one day. I'm not sure I can go to that area and *not* go to the House of Prime Rib
[02:19:00] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: It's been raining on and off, and had snow on the hills at night.
[02:19:12] <Jymmm> last week
[02:19:16] <SWPadnos> snow - how novel. maybe I'll see some this year
[02:19:30] <SWPadnos> you know - in California instead of Vermont
[02:19:43] <Jymmm> weird damn weather... sunny this morning, raining right now.
[02:20:14] <Jymmm> err more like showers
[02:20:49] <SWPadnos> I usually bring a raincoat-like thing
[02:21:28] <Jymmm> I have a pendelton in the car, but the rest of the time I'm in shorts and a tshirt
[02:21:37] <Jymmm> all year long.
[02:21:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:22:18] <fenn> jmkasunich: its starting to make sense now.. when the brightness is up past a certain point something (current or temp limiter) kicks in and resets the display/turns the backlight off
[02:22:31] <fenn> and apparently the power supplies are all busted
[02:22:31] <jmkasunich> ahhh
[02:22:50] <jmkasunich> plural? I thought only one was
[02:22:52] <Jymmm> fenn laptop?
[02:23:01] <fenn> i replaced the fuses on the other panel with wire and it works at low brightness setting
[02:23:14] <fenn> Jymmm: just lcd panels with vga input
[02:23:27] <Jymmm> fenn does it hum?
[02:23:27] <jmkasunich> then you turned it up and blew up the power supply? thats what I did
[02:23:45] <fenn> jmkasunich: well this other big one never worked at all until i plugged it into the wall wart
[02:23:56] <Jymmm> inverter boards go bad alot in LCD displays.
[02:23:58] <fenn> having those little arrows is handy too
[02:24:07] <Jymmm> or is this JUST the backlight?
[02:24:27] <fenn> its the inverter or maybe the brightness control chip
[02:25:15] <fenn> those power supplies are too big anyway
[02:25:22] <fenn> unless what
[02:25:26] <fenn> erf
[02:25:37] <fenn> unless what is turning off when the brightness is too high is the wall wart :P
[02:25:37] <Jymmm> is anyone using a tool setter by chance?
[02:25:48] <Jymmm> electronic
[02:25:55] <fenn> like a touch probe?
[02:26:07] <Jymmm> I guess, or non-contact
[02:26:32] <fenn> no but it doesnt sound so hard
[02:27:25] <Jymmm> Well, I wanted to see others, but the non-contact ones are "break a beam", instead of " measure a distance"
[02:27:47] <Jymmm> not all that much on ebay
[02:27:58] <fenn> well you run into problems with capacitive sensors because the geometry is different for each tool
[02:28:38] <Jymmm> I was thinking laser measuring distance, not capacitance
[02:28:48] <Jymmm> not ultrasonic either.
[02:28:54] <fenn> how does that work?
[02:29:09] <Jymmm> refractive beam
[02:29:30] <fenn> i dont understand
[02:29:53] <SWPadnos> you use a fast oscillator for long distances, and interference for small changes
[02:30:16] <fenn> how do you reflect a laser off an endmill of arbitrary geometry?
[02:30:21] <Jymmm> I remember using a special microscope that you would focus on the low part, reset the meter (which was a modified TI calculator) then focus on the new height. and the difference was the thickness.
[02:31:00] <Jymmm> fenn they use lasers to measure chemical content/type/amounts in smoke stacks and in medical fluids
[02:31:17] <Jymmm> ands gases in fluids I mean
[02:31:39] <Jymmm> I have nfc how, but I have seen it when I worked in a BioMed lab.
[02:31:43] <fenn> but those things are transparent and of a known geometry
[02:32:37] <Jymmm> well how does an optical mouse work? No more metal mouse pads these days.
[02:33:29] <fenn> it has a little camera that picks out specks of dust moving around
[02:35:09] <Jymmm> fenn a laser tape measure --> http://www.professionalequipment.com/xq/ASP/ProductID.4134/id.15/subID.125/qx/default.htm
[02:35:59] <Jymmm> here's a shitload of them... http://www.professionalequipment.com/xq/ASP/laser_measuring_tools/id.15/subID.125/qx/default.htm
[02:36:54] <fenn> +/- 3mm is better than i expected
[02:38:04] <SWPadnos> much better than the laser rangefinders we had in the military
[02:38:15] <SWPadnos> (15-20 years ago or so)
[02:38:19] <Jymmm> that's sad
[02:38:36] <SWPadnos> well, they were designed in the '60s or early '70s, I think
[02:38:44] <Jymmm> ah
[02:38:46] <SWPadnos> so it's not too bad
[02:39:09] <jmkasunich> SWP: I would think a laser rangefinder and a laser tapemeasure are completely different
[02:39:18] <SWPadnos> those were either 1M or 10M accuracy back then
[02:39:32] <fenn> 100m max
[02:39:34] <SWPadnos> these look more like rangefinders - there' sno tape on them, it's a beam only
[02:39:45] <jmkasunich> +/-3mm over say 20ft (tape measure) and +/- 1M over a long distance are two different things
[02:40:11] <SWPadnos> +/- 3mm over 100m is pretty good
[02:40:33] <fenn> yep
[02:40:35] <SWPadnos> but you're right - when the normal range is 1000-3000M, +/- 1 is pretty good
[02:40:57] <SWPadnos> though these days, all you need is a faster oscillator. 150 MHz gives you 1M accuracy
[02:40:57] <Jymmm> better than carrying a 650 foot tape
[02:41:01] <jmkasunich> that tapemeasure thing is +/- 3mm typ, +/-10mm max
[02:41:17] <jmkasunich> typ appiles to less than 30m total
[02:41:27] <fenn> bah what does "max accuracy mean"
[02:41:38] <jmkasunich> max error would be a better term
[02:41:41] <jmkasunich> typ is specmanship
[02:41:48] <jmkasunich> max is what they are promising to meet
[02:41:51] <fenn> specmanship?
[02:41:55] <SWPadnos> bullshit
[02:41:55] <fenn> never heard that one :)
[02:41:57] <Jymmm> * Jymmm smacks fenn for goin off the subject!
[02:42:04] <Jymmm> lol
[02:42:15] <fenn> * fenn tosses Jymmm on a specmanship and launches it into outer spec
[02:42:26] <Jymmm> now that fenn knows "how" a laser can measure shit...
[02:42:37] <fenn> nope still clueless
[02:42:46] <jmkasunich> a laser can't measure shit, its not reflective enough
[02:42:57] <SWPadnos> 1) turn on the laser beam for a moment
[02:43:02] <Jymmm> has anyone seen a optical non-contact tool setter that measures distance?
[02:43:05] <SWPadnos> 2) start a counter at a known frequency
[02:43:15] <SWPadnos> 3) stop the counter when the reflection comes back
[02:43:24] <fenn> alrighty then
[02:43:33] <alex_joni> good-night all
[02:43:38] <Jymmm> nite alex_joni
[02:43:46] <SWPadnos> see you later Alesx
[02:43:52] <SWPadnos> err - Alex
[02:43:54] <jmkasunich> SWP: nope
[02:44:04] <Jymmm> if they have laser radar guns, they can calc distance too.
[02:44:09] <jmkasunich> not unless you are counting at 50GHz
[02:44:12] <SWPadnos> that's how the old ones worked, which is why they were so inaccurate
[02:44:18] <fenn> so to measure within .001" we only need a 12 teraherz oscillator
[02:44:22] <SWPadnos> 150 MHz is all you need for 1M accuracy
[02:44:43] <fenn> i must be doing something wrong
[02:44:45] <SWPadnos> so 1.5 GHz, plus a phase comparator, can get you very good results
[02:45:01] <jmkasunich> I suspect they moduleate the beam at some moderately high frequency, and use phase relationship between outgoing and reflected
[02:45:12] <Jymmm> Modulated Beam Systems use the time light takes to travel to the target and back, but the time for a single round-trip is not measured directly. Instead, the strength of the laser is rapidly varied to produce a signal that changes over time.
[02:45:25] <SWPadnos> that can only get you the "precise" portion of it, it can't do the gross measurement
[02:45:48] <fenn> good enough for me
[02:45:52] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:45:58] <Jymmm> The AR600 laser displacement sensors are a series of high accuracy measuring devices for industrial Acuity laser displacement sensorapplication. Models vary in measuring range and can achieve resolutions better than 1.0 micron.
[02:46:04] <jmkasunich> successive approximation - modulate at 10KHz, then 100KHz, then 1MHz, etc
[02:46:37] <SWPadnos> ok, if you use the phase relationship of the modulation signal, not the "carrier" frequency
[02:46:50] <jmkasunich> the carrier is the light itself
[02:46:56] <SWPadnos> right
[02:47:03] <jmkasunich> thats how you get down into the micron region
[02:47:09] <SWPadnos> with wavelengths in the micrometer range
[02:47:27] <jmkasunich> but that takes more $ than those tape measures want to spend
[02:47:31] <Jymmm> The AR600 optical measurement sensor projects a beam of visible laser light that creates a spot on the target surface. The reflected light from the surface is viewed from an angle by a CCD line scan camera and the target's distance is computed from the image pixel data. The size of the measurement triangle is a function of the sensor span and case length.
[02:47:46] <SWPadnos> for short range sensors, that's great, but I'm pretty sure the long-range laser tape measures don't use optical phase
[02:47:49] <SWPadnos> ah - the easy way
[02:48:29] <SWPadnos> that's a high-school physics experiment to measure the speed of light
[02:48:39] <SWPadnos> can't remember the name
[02:49:16] <SWPadnos> "Michelson-Morely"
[02:49:24] <Jymmm> http://www.acuityresearch.com/Resources/time-of-flight.shtml
[02:49:41] <jmkasunich> that doesn't measure the speed of light (IIRC) it measures the absence of aether
[02:50:11] <jmkasunich> it makes relative speed-of-light measurements in two paths at 90 degrees to each other, but neither measurement is absolute
[02:50:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[02:50:28] <SWPadnos> I guess I should read more than the google summaries ;)
[02:50:49] <jmkasunich> (I went to CWRU, where the Michaelson and Morley did the first experiment)
[02:50:51] <Jymmm> lol
[02:51:28] <SWPadnos> well, I have the excuse that it was over 20 years ago that I did the experiment
[02:51:48] <Jymmm> SWPadnos your old excuse is getting old now =)
[02:51:59] <SWPadnos> bummer
[02:52:08] <SWPadnos> I guess I'll have to learn a new trick some day
[02:52:12] <Jymmm> you need a new old excuse
[02:52:31] <Jymmm> or recycle and get a old new excuse
[02:52:47] <SWPadnos> the dog ate my excuse book
[02:52:51] <Jymmm> ok, so optical tool setters dont exist then, huh?
[02:53:04] <SWPadnos> sure, but they're beam break devices ;)
[02:53:15] <Jymmm> thats a optical switch to me.
[02:53:29] <SWPadnos> yes ...
[02:53:47] <SWPadnos> you could use a camera, and write software to determine the tool length
[02:53:57] <Jymmm> I find that hard to believe... I seen that EONS ago and worked great
[02:53:59] <SWPadnos> ther eare some that do that, and even get the diameter
[02:54:10] <SWPadnos> there are
[02:54:23] <Jymmm> I was thinking two part...
[02:55:35] <Jymmm> one to set the tool length (zero out), then another to set to top of material
[02:55:49] <Jymmm> you never have to specify the material height.
[02:56:29] <Jymmm> fenn you use a touch probe?
[02:57:06] <Jymmm> SWPadnos Heh, I'm clueless to figuring out a laser + ccd as a 3d scanner
[02:57:11] <SWPadnos> OK. Foucault and Michelson both did the rorating mirror thing, but not together
[02:57:32] <SWPadnos> not 3D, you backlight the tool, and look at the shape
[02:58:03] <SWPadnos> if the camera and lens are chosen well (and set up correctly), you can get very accurate profiles of the tool
[02:58:09] <SWPadnos> even the shape
[03:05:00] <fenn> Jymmm: no not yet
[03:05:30] <Jymmm> http://www.sjbaker.org/projects/scanner/
[03:05:34] <fenn> i think you'd have to spend a lot of money to get a laser with a tightly collimated beam
[03:05:37] <Jymmm> fenn ah, ok.
[03:06:33] <fenn> you dont even need the laser actually
[03:06:47] <fenn> http://www.vision.caltech.edu/bouguetj/ICCV98/index.html
[03:07:36] <fenn> its amazing how fast bookmarks go stale these days
[03:08:09] <fenn> there was another one that did it with just the silhouette of the object
[03:08:13] <Jymmm> http://www.vision.caltech.edu/bouguetj/ICCV98/images/demo_scanning.mpg
[03:08:19] <fenn> you could only do convex things of couse
[03:09:34] <fenn> i liked the structured light with a video projector link giacus posted the other day
[03:10:02] <fenn> gets more info than just geometry
[03:12:01] <Jymmm> measurements?
[03:12:13] <fenn> surface albedo
[03:12:45] <Jymmm> I have a digital video camera... might not be a bad thing to try out if all that is needed is some software and a stick
[03:12:49] <fenn> look at debevec.org if you're interested in this sort of stuff
[03:18:02] <fenn> btw jymmm i thought it was funny you were so impressed by that rendering of a warehouse.. check this out http://www.3delight.com/Gallery/Collection/01A/Bailey_HR.htm
[03:18:46] <jmkasunich> wow
[03:20:24] <SWPadnos> that's very realistic
[03:20:49] <jmkasunich> thats the understatement of the week
[03:22:37] <Jymmm> what the heck? http://flexbar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=18507
[03:23:33] <SWPadnos> heh - it's optical - you look at it ;)
[03:24:02] <Jymmm> that's ok.. nutting wrong there - if it works
[03:25:09] <SWPadnos> that's effectively a touch probe that you go 0.02 past touching
[03:25:10] <fenn> you gotta look at it though
[03:25:15] <SWPadnos> oops - 0.002
[03:25:29] <SWPadnos> right - so it's a non-automatic touch proble
[03:25:34] <SWPadnos> probe, even
[03:25:43] <SWPadnos> or problem
[03:26:54] <Jymmm> you think a movement differencial of 0.0003" in a switch is good enough?
[03:27:08] <SWPadnos> for wood, very likely
[03:27:15] <SWPadnos> aerospace, maybe not
[03:27:43] <fenn> what kind of switch is good to .0003?
[03:27:55] <jmkasunich>
[03:28:05] <jmkasunich> oops
[03:28:14] <SWPadnos> you don't say
[03:30:06] <fenn> i like this guy's renderings too http://www.oyonale.com/ldc/english/accident_gold.htm
[03:30:55] <fenn> he has a network of nutty stories for each illustration and they are all linked together
[03:31:33] <SWPadnos> those are good
[03:32:18] <Jymmm> you can almost make out the license plate numbers too
[03:32:22] <fenn> this is my favorite.. it's just a tutorial scene http://www.oyonale.com/histoire/images/makecloud2_demo_rain.jpg
[03:32:46] <fenn> hard to believe that's pov-ray
[03:35:16] <Jymmm> After seeing what can be done with a video camera and a ruler, I'm thinking a CCD tool setter might just work =)
[03:35:44] <fenn> what's wrong with a contact probe?
[03:35:47] <Jymmm> wonder if those $40 cameras would be good enough
[03:35:56] <SWPadnos> nope
[03:36:10] <Jymmm> SWPadnos why not?
[03:36:15] <fenn> $0.02 cents worth of wire hooked to a spare parallel port pin
[03:36:19] <SWPadnos> you need a camera that can have auto-focus turned off
[03:36:34] <Jymmm> SWPadnos those $40 caremas are fixed lenses
[03:36:47] <SWPadnos> ah - *those* cameras
[03:36:49] <Jymmm> well, you turn the lens and lock it in
[03:36:53] <SWPadnos> I ignore them, sorry
[03:36:57] <jmkasunich> oops
[03:37:03] <jmkasunich> dammit
[03:37:15] <SWPadnos> again? what keeps happening?
[03:41:43] <Jymmm> jmkasunich did you fall in?
[03:42:20] <jmkasunich> messing around with stuff in other windows
[06:15:41] <Jymmm> jmkasunich ah, ok.
[06:16:16] <Jymmm> Does emc have any built in 'touch probe' stuff, like tcnc does?
[08:28:20] <Roguish_> Roguish_ is now known as Roguish
[14:59:14] <ottos> greetings gents..
[15:48:05] <terrylr> knock, knock, anyone here?
[15:56:04] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[16:09:04] <terrylr> knock, knock, anyone here?
[16:11:53] <fenn> nobody here but us bots
[16:12:21] <terrylr> fenn, ah.
[16:13:49] <cradek> fenn: you're a very clever bot then
[16:14:15] <fenn> no, i still havent managed to take over the world
[16:14:42] <cradek> that's hard to do using only irc
[16:15:53] <fenn> could be worse, i could be stuck in some government mainframe
[16:16:14] <fenn> or in a toaster.. *shudder*
[16:18:45] <CIA-10> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/hal/ (utils/Submakefile classicladder/Submakefile): don't build some things when gtk is not available (GTK_VERSION is empty)
[16:20:32] <CIA-10> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/depend.sh.in: hopelessly old versions of bash don't have PIPESTATUS. Work around with more temporary files
[16:26:03] <CIA-10> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/rtapi/rtl_rtapi.c: fix function name
[16:27:09] <CIA-10> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/Makefile: Use BASEPWD instead of PWD; don't use CFLAGS for rtdeps, that's for userspace only
[16:37:53] <TorbaX> hi world!
[16:38:55] <TorbaX> I'm looking for a BMP image to gerbercode converter,
[16:39:38] <TorbaX> Where would I search it?
[16:41:01] <fenn> TorbaX: try this http://timeguy.com/cradek/image-to-gcode
[16:41:55] <fenn> it takes a .gif file
[16:42:12] <TorbaX> I've lost any bookmarks on Firefox (bookmarks.html was 850KByte in size)
[16:42:25] <TorbaX> thanks fenn
[16:42:40] <TorbaX> Does It compatible with EMC2?
[16:43:18] <fenn> yes but it requires some code tweaking in normal use
[16:44:17] <TorbaX> It's a bet
[16:44:44] <TorbaX> in italian I say "...un terno al lotto"
[16:44:46] <TorbaX> :P
[16:46:18] <TorbaX> I have a PCB image (png file) and now I'm trying to convert it in a B/W gif image
[16:49:06] <TorbaX> ehe
[16:49:07] <TorbaX> ops
[16:49:12] <TorbaX> a mistake
[16:49:19] <TorbaX> I've lost ALL bookmarks on Firefox (bookmarks.html was 850KByte in size)
[16:49:36] <fenn> do you have the original schematic files?
[16:49:55] <TorbaX> fenn: no
[16:50:23] <TorbaX> I havent any schematics
[16:50:33] <TorbaX> only one image of PCB
[16:50:37] <fenn> you can use autotrace to export hpgl (a vector format) and hp2xx to convert to gcode, but i've never done it
[16:50:50] <Jymmm> or potrace
[16:51:02] <Jymmm> autotrace has a online service
[16:51:09] <fenn> thats cool
[16:51:19] <jepler> ugh, I'd hate to start with just an image of a pcb and try to mill based on it
[16:51:35] <Jymmm> http://www.roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/autotrace/tracer.pl
[16:51:46] <TorbaX> Sorry, does Gimp make a HPGL format of an imagefile ?
[16:51:51] <fenn> no
[16:51:53] <TorbaX> :|
[16:52:12] <Jymmm> InkScape can trace too (and is very good)
[16:52:57] <fenn> inkscape is very good but doesn't export hpgl
[16:53:05] <fenn> i want to make a .svg to gcode converter anyway
[16:53:18] <Jymmm> no it exports svg and can be converted to hpgl
[16:53:24] <fenn> how od you do that?
[16:53:30] <Jymmm> ImageMagick
[16:53:37] <fenn> hmm
[16:54:05] <fenn> stupid capitalization
[16:54:42] <Jymmm> Note: InkScape has Floating Point issue that you have to address in the settings somehow (I forget)
[16:55:21] <Jymmm> If you draw a 4" square, in the SVG it might be 3.999568345"
[16:56:46] <fenn> meh
[16:57:18] <fenn> when i need a pretty drawing accurate to .0005 i'll worry about it
[17:00:09] <Jymmm> InkScape could be used for a simple cad program if you leave off the added features.
[17:03:13] <Jymmm> when you get a rainbow reflection effect on carbide, what does that mean?
[17:03:40] <fenn> there are microscopic grooves that are evenly spaced apart
[17:04:35] <Jymmm> Ah, I just realisted it's mirror smooth except for the rainbow (grooves)
[17:04:46] <Jymmm> realized
[17:04:50] <Jymmm> thanks
[17:05:08] <Jymmm> for some silly reason I thought it might have been a heat treatment thing.
[17:05:31] <fenn> jymmm have you actually done inkscape->gcode conversion?
[17:06:06] <Jymmm> svg to gcode? Not directly, no.
[17:06:13] <Jymmm> indirectly yes
[17:06:30] <fenn> ok hp2xx chokes on the hpgl file
[17:06:45] <fenn> when i do convert blah.svg blah.hpgl
[17:07:06] <fenn> and then hp2xx -m nc blah.hpgl blah.ngc
[17:07:46] <Jymmm> I dont know what 'hp2xx' is.
[17:08:08] <fenn> how did you do it then?
[17:09:22] <dmessier> hi all
[17:09:59] <Jymmm> fenn: oh my bad... Im only supports READING of hpgl, not writing.
[17:10:08] <Jymmm> s/Im/IM/
[17:10:36] <Jymmm> I guess I used Corel and just forgot
[17:11:43] <Jymmm> why hpgl?
[17:11:52] <fenn> because hp2xx converts hpgl to gcode
[17:11:59] <fenn> hpgl is a plotter language, very similar
[17:12:01] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[17:12:19] <Jymmm> I know HPGL, I have the 700pg spec manual here.
[17:12:29] <fenn> weirdo
[17:12:43] <Jymmm> Dont be hatin!
[17:13:09] <Jymmm> oh jealous one
[17:13:10] <dmessier> and hes read it is the scry part
[17:13:40] <Jymmm> I have the dead tree version, but if you want to dl it, let me know.
[17:13:45] <terrylr> i have the hpgl spec manual and yes i have read it several times.
[17:14:21] <fenn> i dont want to have anything to do with hpgl
[17:14:46] <dmessier> i have the APT manuat (Automaticallt programmed tool)
[17:14:53] <Jymmm> you just said you're converting them
[17:15:18] <fenn> i want to go .svg to .ngc, and i thought i could do it with an intermediate hpgl step, but i guess not
[17:15:22] <terrylr> general question, what precision do most of you require? +/- 0.001 or +/- 0.0005 or other
[17:15:31] <fenn> if i have to write code i might as well write what i want in the first place
[17:15:54] <Jymmm> fenn which is?
[17:16:04] <fenn> .svg to .ngc
[17:16:05] <dmessier> more precision is better.. look at a drawing..
[17:16:23] <fenn> whatever precision is required for the application :)
[17:16:52] <dmessier> makes for better accuracy and repeatability figures
[17:17:10] <terrylr> dmessier, more precision generally costs more up front. precision groung ball screws as compared to precision rolled ball screws.
[17:17:37] <dmessier> and you know if you built .0001 int the machine you dont need to check +/-.005 dimensions
[17:17:45] <fenn> welcome to the wonderful world of engineering
[17:18:13] <Jymmm> fenn hp2xx accepts svg
[17:18:14] <dmessier> pay now or struggle forever after ... your pick
[17:18:38] <fenn> no way
[17:18:46] <alex_joni> dmessier: hello
[17:18:48] <fenn> it's called hp2xx because it goes *from* hpgl to other formats
[17:18:57] <alex_joni> fenn: did you bug dmessier ?
[17:18:58] <dmessier> allo alex
[17:19:01] <alex_joni> about that song?
[17:19:08] <Jymmm> fenn try it
[17:19:09] <alex_joni> dmessier: we need your french skills
[17:19:11] <alex_joni> :-)
[17:19:15] <fenn> heh it's your turn no alex
[17:19:18] <dmessier> now what??
[17:19:19] <fenn> now*
[17:19:27] <fenn> * fenn throws a cheese doodle at dmessire
[17:19:32] <alex_joni> dmessier: a song, partly in french, but we can't make out the words
[17:19:38] <alex_joni> maybe you can do better
[17:19:41] <fenn> possibly in french
[17:19:43] <alex_joni> fenn: please post the link
[17:19:48] <dmessier> i see...
[17:19:48] <alex_joni> fenn: it is in french
[17:20:05] <fenn> http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/Cowboy Bebop OST 3 - 14 - We Qui Non Coin.mp3
[17:20:46] <fenn> the first half is japanese
[17:20:48] <terrylr> i am trying to decide between precision ground ball screws or precision rolled ball screws. they would be used in building an xyz table for waterjet cutting.
[17:21:32] <dmessier> waterjets need heavy table load capacity..
[17:21:40] <fenn> if you're going to spend the money for a waterjet you might as well get ground ballscrews
[17:21:43] <terrylr> dmessier, yes.
[17:22:59] <terrylr> dmessier, not so much a table but more like an xyz gantry with a water tank beneath it.
[17:23:29] <dmessier> id say a good set of rolled screws would handle it
[17:25:02] <dmessier> thats NOT french
[17:25:34] <alex_joni> dmessier: only the second half
[17:25:41] <alex_joni> the first part is japanese
[17:28:16] <dmessier> i can get a word here and there ... but they are being VERY creative with the language... : 0
[17:29:01] <alex_joni> dmessier: right :)
[17:29:26] <alex_joni> but the first phrase is something like: "je suis sans mon 'sokona'?"
[17:30:08] <dmessier> yeah... japanese inter mixed all over
[17:30:22] <dmessier> damn hybrids
[17:30:23] <fenn> ok thats what i thought
[17:30:46] <dmessier> ici et la
[17:38:37] <terrylr> dmessier, actually, the xyz gantry is pretty straightforward. the water tank is not that straightforward. one of the biggest problems is sheer weight of the water inself. that may even increased if the water tank is partial filled with ball bearing. than internal to the tank is the supporting grid/grates to hold the material.
[17:39:04] <dmessier> anyone ever heard of a Lucida console terminal
[17:39:13] <fenn> sounds like a font
[17:39:47] <jepler> Yes, I also think "Lucida Console" is a font name
[17:40:01] <dmessier> i have a postprossing application that pucking
[17:40:33] <jepler> http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/microsoft/lucida-console/
[17:41:08] <terrylr> general question, at what point would one switch from using a ball screw in the x-axis to using a helical rack and split pinion?
[17:41:17] <jepler> "number of glyphs: 666" -- microsoft.com page on lucida console
[17:41:57] <fenn> when cutting forces are low and speed is high
[17:41:59] <terrylr> jepler, you mean you did not know that bill gates is the beast mentioned in revelations?
[17:42:17] <dmessier> 3000 lbs or so on big boring mills... and 3Meter travel or more
[17:42:41] <fenn> what is a "split pinion"?
[17:43:20] <terrylr> fenn, hang on i will get you a link.
[17:43:22] <dmessier> split nuts along the lead screw
[17:43:26] <les_w> hi guys
[17:43:26] <fenn> n/m found it http://www.atlantadrives.com/zerobacklash.htm
[17:44:54] <fenn> hey les how's your chicken.. died of neglect yet?
[17:47:09] <les_w> have two now
[17:47:19] <les_w> no they were fine
[17:47:30] <les_w> I have been out detailing the car
[17:47:41] <dmessier> how can i run a 16 bit app in XP ooop
[17:47:47] <les_w> seems a truck I was behind spilled some paint
[17:48:12] <les_w> the little spatters came off easily with a detailer's clay bar though
[17:48:40] <fenn> oo this is neat http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/NexenGroup/Ball_Screw_Alternative/26600/0
[17:49:38] <les_w> that is neat
[17:49:55] <fenn> dunno what "cumulative errors in ballscrew systems" they are talking about though
[17:50:40] <dmessier> tres cool
[17:50:56] <fenn> i saw a DIY version of this before somewhere
[17:51:06] <les_w> do the rollers float?
[17:52:49] <terrylr> http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Technologies/Turning/Article/False/8605/
[17:54:36] <dmessier> twin opposed master slave drives... i love it
[17:54:47] <fenn> seems silly to me
[17:55:36] <dmessier> we used it in a nutating head system to keep the head from tilting all the time
[18:00:47] <fenn> hmm can both motors accelerate in the same direction?
[18:01:38] <dmessier> sure
[18:02:14] <dmessier> but one is technically turning the other direction
[18:02:41] <fenn> but do they both accelerate the load?
[18:03:20] <dmessier> yes...
[19:13:51] <dmessier> ahh crap-n-marshmellows... any one else wanna try a kick with this post-processor.. or the .cl file to make man-readable??
[19:25:10] <giacus> helloo
[19:31:01] <Bo-Dick> i've managed to find out that my transistor h-bridge is a disaster
[19:31:08] <Jymmm> hi giacus
[19:31:18] <giacus> hi Jymmm :)
[19:31:21] <Jymmm> Bo-Dick let out the magic smoke?
[19:31:22] <giacus> hello Bo-Dick
[19:31:51] <Jymmm> giacus: Somebody said you posted a link to 3D scanning using a video camera. Do dyou remember what that was?
[19:32:14] <giacus> Jymmm: yeah, a moment ..
[19:32:19] <Jymmm> k
[19:32:45] <Bo-Dick> i haven't discovered until now that transistor bridges aren't very good when the resistance of the load is low.
[19:33:10] <giacus> Jymmm: http://www.sjbaker.org/projects/scanner/
[19:33:22] <giacus> the interesting part for me is the c file ..
[19:33:34] <giacus> I'm studing around it
[19:33:42] <giacus> and I have to try it yet
[19:33:59] <Jymmm> giacus: We found that one last night. found another one that uses just a desk lamp and a camera (no laser)
[19:34:05] <Bo-Dick> it'll work quite decently on my small 75 ohms motors but it won't perform at all when the coil resistance is in the region of about 1 ohms.
[19:34:44] <giacus> Jymmm: any scanned sample about how it work ?
[19:35:00] <Jymmm> yeah. let me find the link
[19:35:47] <Jymmm> http://www.vision.caltech.edu/bouguetj/ICCV98/
[19:36:05] <Bo-Dick> btw, when i try to connect my pwm current limiter in real-life the comparator blew up. it looked good in the simulation but in real-life there were nothing but smoke.
[19:36:19] <Jymmm> ouch
[19:36:44] <Bo-Dick> i think i'm gonna go linear for the current regulator.
[19:37:43] <giacus> Jymmm: nice, I already seen it time ago
[19:38:26] <Bo-Dick> what i haven't tried yet of course is if the bridge would perform better in a "tilden" configuration. anybody heard about tilden-bridges?
[19:38:30] <giacus> I bought a small laser level, I'd like to test it in the next days (if I found enough time)
[19:41:55] <Bo-Dick> ...so my dream about the universal stepper driver is long lost.
[19:43:27] <Bo-Dick> i made a simulation with FET transistors and the difference in performance was stounding for low impedance loads.
[19:44:17] <Bo-Dick> BJTs simly have to high on-resistance!
[19:47:12] <giacus> Bo-Dick: what about mosfet ?
[19:47:34] <Bo-Dick> didn't have any models in pspice for mosfets.
[19:47:43] <Bo-Dick> i base my designs on simulations
[19:48:02] <Bo-Dick> but i know mosfets are the best
[19:48:10] <Bo-Dick> is mosfet the same as hexfet?
[19:49:04] <giacus> Im not familiar too much with electronics, but I remember somewhere mosfets are used for that
[19:49:19] <giacus> that why I asked you
[19:49:39] <Bo-Dick> the problem is that mosfets are soo much more expensive than bjt:S
[19:49:50] <fenn> gimme a break they're like $1 each
[19:50:04] <fenn> have you looked into how much endmills cost? hmm?
[19:50:19] <Bo-Dick> switching mosfets aren't just 1$ each. bullshit
[19:50:40] <Bo-Dick> not at my dealer anyway
[19:51:44] <Jymmm> Bo-Dick: Try a local crack-whore instead. =)
[19:52:15] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: don't be rude
[19:52:21] <Bo-Dick> i'm not smart enough to make the right priorities
[19:52:48] <giacus> fenn: Im back from a very nice day :P http://giacus.altervista.org/photo/hobby/stallman/index.html
[19:53:18] <giacus> * giacus uploading some nice video :D
[19:53:31] <fenn> looks like fun
[19:53:38] <giacus> hehe :P
[19:54:01] <fenn> what did he talk about?
[19:54:55] <giacus> programs was here http://catania.linux.it/
[19:54:58] <fenn> did he absolve you of all your sins?
[19:55:12] <giacus> yeah
[19:55:13] <giacus> haha
[19:56:49] <giacus> there's and incredible difference of quality between my sony camera and the Nikon camera of k4ts :(
[19:57:22] <giacus> the mines are dark and poor
[19:57:47] <giacus> k4ats have a fantastic camera, really
[19:57:58] <giacus> K4ts*
[19:58:45] <giacus> I used the mine to take some video..
[20:03:01] <fenn> Bo-Dick: what unit are the prices in on elfa.se?
[20:03:33] <fenn> oops "All prices are in Euro"
[20:03:50] <fenn> i bet shipping from thailand would be less :)
[20:04:20] <Bo-Dick> so your conclusion is also that elfa is expensive
[20:04:32] <fenn> http://futurlec.com/TransMosIRF.shtml
[20:06:10] <giacus> nice price
[20:06:12] <Bo-Dick> well on elfa they are more than 4$ each!
[20:08:21] <fenn> irf530 is $0.24 on digikey
[20:09:01] <fenn> * fenn looks up to-220AB package
[20:09:21] <Bo-Dick> i would benefit from ordering them from the U.S
[20:10:37] <fenn> oops out of stock for the $0.24 ones
[20:11:20] <Bo-Dick> well i've already spent over 80$ on my non-successful design <:(
[20:11:42] <Bo-Dick> it was supposed to be a 4-axis system
[20:13:11] <Bo-Dick> after all a four axis gecko system would be slightly under 500$ so quality isn't free.
[20:13:44] <Bo-Dick> but 80$ is a lot for a non-successful system
[20:14:20] <fenn> someone should write a script to sort digikey by price automatically
[20:51:58] <robin_sz> meep?
[21:23:58] <fenn> oh that's hilarious.. someone uploaded the binary for a PDP-8 edm machine, and tom decided to take it down because it was proprietary software
[21:25:38] <giacus> :D
[21:40:07] <robin_sz> now, that is funny :)
[21:40:30] <alex_joni> hello robin
[21:40:45] <robin_sz> elo
[21:40:50] <anonimasu> hm
[21:40:51] <anonimasu> hi
[21:40:52] <alex_joni> wot's cookin' ?
[21:40:58] <robin_sz> curry!
[21:41:02] <alex_joni> nice
[21:41:06] <jmkasunich> heh, I was gonna say that
[21:41:12] <alex_joni> * alex_joni had some nice chutney today
[21:41:43] <robin_sz> alex_joni: I found a neat way to double the production output of the welding plant this week
[21:41:44] <jmkasunich> I wonder what a "management port" is? (on an HP server)
[21:41:59] <alex_joni> robin_sz: really?
[21:42:03] <jmkasunich> how?
[21:42:04] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: serial?
[21:42:10] <jmkasunich> looks like serial
[21:42:18] <jmkasunich> maybe a serial console?
[21:42:23] <alex_joni> it might be for a serial console (screen & keyb)
[21:42:30] <alex_joni> yes
[21:42:50] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: hook a serial cable and start a minicom
[21:42:56] <jmkasunich> robin: how'd you double production
[21:42:58] <alex_joni> you'll find out ;)
[21:42:59] <robin_sz> alex_joni: yeah, changed the has to a trimix, with 2.5% oxygen, new liner, 1.2mm wire and most importanly, fitted another torch holder to the workshop
[21:43:07] <robin_sz> has? gas
[21:43:20] <alex_joni> 90 8 2 ?
[21:43:25] <alex_joni> well, 2.5
[21:43:30] <robin_sz> yah
[21:43:40] <robin_sz> the new torchholder was the key part though
[21:43:46] <alex_joni> right, that's a good gas for stainless usually
[21:44:13] <robin_sz> you know .. the 2m tall torchholders, with boots :)
[21:44:20] <alex_joni> err.. crap, the one for stainless is without co2
[21:44:34] <alex_joni> robin_sz: lol ;) I use the adjustable type
[21:44:58] <robin_sz> this is one of the clever self-levelling types
[21:45:23] <alex_joni> inductive?
[21:45:31] <robin_sz> no, wetware
[21:45:42] <alex_joni> wetware?
[21:46:13] <robin_sz> sigh ... clearly my humour is not working today
[21:46:41] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: yeah that's for console
[21:46:42] <alex_joni> we're all tired ;)
[21:46:52] <robin_sz> you know what hard and software are right?
[21:47:13] <robin_sz> well, most errors can be attributed to faults in the wetware
[21:47:17] <robin_sz> ie humans
[21:47:22] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok got it
[21:48:09] <robin_sz> so ... in my half crap joke "fitted another torchholder to the workshop" means "employed another welder"
[21:48:50] <alex_joni> yeah, I got that
[21:49:05] <robin_sz> first rate guy too, but one of my customers is not very impressed
[21:49:09] <alex_joni> but when you said levelling type, I though maybe you replaced the welder with a real torchholder
[21:49:17] <robin_sz> heh
[21:49:41] <dmessier> why not impressed... you steal him??
[21:50:00] <robin_sz> yep :) ... used to be their welding supervisor ;)
[21:50:19] <dmessier> i love it when that happens
[21:50:36] <robin_sz> been there 10 years ... offered to work for me for less than his current rate
[21:50:39] <dmessier> get over it folks
[21:50:53] <dmessier> really... why??
[21:51:03] <robin_sz> well, what does that tell you?
[21:51:15] <dmessier> je comprend
[21:51:35] <fenn> dmessier: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/GSP/SEM0L6OVGJE_0.html
[21:51:37] <anonimasu> that your customer isnt a skilled manager
[21:51:39] <anonimasu> ;)
[21:51:44] <fenn> * fenn gives some ammo to the terrorists :)
[21:51:50] <robin_sz> thats one way of putting it ;)
[21:51:52] <dmessier> what sotr of welding you doing??
[21:51:57] <anonimasu> or that he treats employees like shit..
[21:52:02] <anonimasu> but that equals the same..
[21:52:09] <robin_sz> exactly
[21:52:18] <anonimasu> good management usually keeps workers atleast content..
[21:52:35] <robin_sz> the guy did a welding course, in his own time for a year, 2 nights a week
[21:52:55] <robin_sz> year 2 asked if they would pay the euro 500 fee for the year ....
[21:53:11] <robin_sz> no way they said ...
[21:53:32] <robin_sz> it just goes on and on ... ah well, there bad management = my pool of willing labor
[21:53:39] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:53:41] <robin_sz> ;)
[21:53:52] <anonimasu> yeah as long as you treat them marginally better ;)
[21:54:17] <robin_sz> I do my best to treat them as well as I can afford to
[21:54:19] <dmessier> lear them GOOD welding... and ALL will be yours...
[21:54:36] <dmessier> learn
[21:54:37] <anonimasu> what?
[21:54:42] <robin_sz> flexible hours, choice of what they do etc
[21:54:56] <anonimasu> robin_sz: yeah, I were just lidding
[21:54:58] <anonimasu> kiddinf ;)
[21:54:59] <dmessier> cant be beat...
[21:55:02] <anonimasu> err KIDDING%�
[21:55:05] <robin_sz> heh
[21:55:20] <anonimasu> I'm on the cell so I am laging a little bit
[21:55:29] <robin_sz> I had to do some welding myself today ... first time in 6 months
[21:55:43] <dmessier> you up to snuff
[21:55:54] <robin_sz> sorta ... not as good as the guys though
[21:56:02] <dmessier> lol...
[21:56:11] <robin_sz> 2m long vertical fillets in 3mm mild steel
[21:56:32] <robin_sz> they do them in one run, I had to stop a couple of times
[21:56:41] <dmessier> i pull a good weld outta my ass when i need it and stop... lol
[21:56:55] <robin_sz> heh
[21:57:16] <robin_sz> its a useful skill, but i I wouldnt want to do more than a bit of it from time to time
[21:57:23] <dmessier> long and thin was never my strong suit
[21:57:37] <anonimasu> 3mm isnt thin..
[21:57:45] <anonimasu> 0.5 is thin
[21:57:58] <anonimasu> ;)
[21:58:01] <dmessier> when youve run 3mm wire... it is
[21:58:02] <robin_sz> good to be able to pick up the torch and use it, stops staff going "well, lets see you do better then!"
[21:58:10] <robin_sz> 3mm isnt wire
[21:58:13] <robin_sz> its bar!
[21:58:18] <anonimasu> yep
[21:58:19] <dmessier> ok..
[21:58:38] <anonimasu> dmessier: if you weld 3mm studd with 3mm wire you are badly equipped for the job
[21:58:48] <anonimasu> stuff..
[21:58:55] <anonimasu> ;)
[21:59:00] <robin_sz> 1 mm is about right
[21:59:05] <dmessier> cant make steel mill ladles and tundish's without it
[21:59:18] <anonimasu> what?
[21:59:34] <robin_sz> coo. big welding
[21:59:51] <dmessier> no i understand.... but ive worked on BIG crap.. too
[22:00:04] <robin_sz> and I guess they like good welds too on that sort of stuff
[22:00:33] <dmessier> some guys would burn 300# of wire per shift
[22:00:46] <dmessier> pounds = #
[22:00:46] <robin_sz> coo
[22:01:00] <robin_sz> errm, only on american kbs
[22:01:16] <robin_sz> on uk kbs pound = �
[22:01:17] <dmessier> goin in was the motto
[22:01:38] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[22:01:40] <dmessier> 150 kilos
[22:01:45] <robin_sz> thats better :)
[22:01:55] <robin_sz> thats waht, 10 normal realls?
[22:01:58] <dmessier> im bilingual
[22:01:58] <robin_sz> reels?
[22:02:07] <robin_sz> american and english?
[22:02:13] <anonimasu> well night guys..
[22:02:15] <anonimasu> I'm off
[22:02:22] <dmessier> be well
[22:02:25] <robin_sz> night
[22:02:30] <robin_sz> happy planting
[22:03:06] <robin_sz> our fabrications are much smaller, max 500kg I guess
[22:03:33] <dmessier> ive seen BIG fillet fills... get x-rayed
[22:04:44] <dmessier> 150mm x 45 ged - 300mm x 45 deg
[22:05:11] <robin_sz> coo
[22:05:19] <robin_sz> more than one pass huh?
[22:05:52] <dmessier> we did a shrink fit on the trunnions of 2mm press fit
[22:05:59] <dmessier> many passes
[22:06:37] <robin_sz> * robin_sz wonders haw many amos 3mm wire pulls
[22:06:42] <robin_sz> amps
[22:06:50] <dmessier> nitrogen on the pin..... heat the hole for 5 hrs with TIGER totches
[22:06:58] <robin_sz> over 1000?
[22:07:21] <dmessier> close... wire feed is CRITICAL
[22:07:32] <robin_sz> I can imagine ...
[22:07:40] <robin_sz> you want weld, and NO spatter
[22:08:02] <dmessier> but when it works RIGHT... you can tell bu the sound..
[22:08:09] <robin_sz> as usual
[22:08:22] <dmessier> georgous
[22:08:43] <robin_sz> I was listening to some [ulse synergic the other day
[22:08:51] <robin_sz> very odd sound
[22:08:55] <robin_sz> more like AC tig
[22:09:01] <alex_joni> not odd, that's the real sound
[22:09:02] <alex_joni> :)
[22:09:06] <dmessier> 835 A at 1.1 M / min
[22:09:13] <robin_sz> heh
[22:09:24] <robin_sz> I'd love a pulse mig ... but not rich enough yet
[22:09:31] <alex_joni> short arc sounds sick
[22:09:40] <alex_joni> like it's choking ;)
[22:09:47] <robin_sz> spray transfer dood ;)
[22:10:07] <dmessier> up the power to max and slow down some
[22:10:22] <dmessier> feed it
[22:10:28] <robin_sz> I did some 10mm brackets the other day .. only had 0.8mm wire ... so just set 400 amps and turned the wire feed up full speed
[22:11:04] <dmessier> should work
[22:11:07] <robin_sz> had to practice a bit first though ... you have to be gast in spray transfer
[22:11:21] <dmessier> 400 a little high fo .8
[22:11:21] <robin_sz> gast/fast
[22:11:31] <robin_sz> fine for spray mode
[22:12:00] <dmessier> but is this a spray transfer machine
[22:12:10] <robin_sz> shrug ...
[22:12:17] <dmessier> or a welder>
[22:12:20] <robin_sz> if you turn up the big control it is :)
[22:12:52] <dmessier> now YOU need a new weldin shield... right>
[22:13:05] <robin_sz> well, it was alittle hot :)
[22:13:43] <alex_joni> robin_sz: spray is ok, but pulse is better
[22:13:48] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:13:51] <robin_sz> more control
[22:13:55] <alex_joni> I did some tests with Tandem a while ago
[22:13:58] <alex_joni> 2 x 1.4mm wire
[22:14:04] <alex_joni> went up to 2 x 430A
[22:14:08] <alex_joni> that was intense
[22:14:11] <robin_sz> wow
[22:14:20] <alex_joni> 430A median current
[22:14:22] <robin_sz> 10mm plate 1 pass?
[22:14:31] <alex_joni> pulses were up at 650A
[22:14:46] <alex_joni> I did a A7 with ~90cm/min
[22:15:06] <robin_sz> A7?
[22:15:12] <alex_joni> corner weld
[22:15:15] <robin_sz> right
[22:15:22] <robin_sz> oh, those robots I looked at?
[22:15:22] <alex_joni> A specifies the height of the triangle
[22:15:55] <alex_joni> right, probably worth the money, but lots of headaches
[22:16:00] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:16:10] <robin_sz> the wetware versions are easier to program
[22:16:13] <alex_joni> btw, I got word from cloos uk a while ago, they had 3 robots for 10k pounds
[22:16:25] <robin_sz> each or the set?
[22:16:29] <alex_joni> all of them
[22:16:32] <robin_sz> coo
[22:16:37] <alex_joni> with welders & all
[22:16:43] <robin_sz> wow
[22:17:00] <robin_sz> spent all my money on a new factory :)
[22:17:14] <alex_joni> yah, I know what you mean ;)
[22:17:18] <alex_joni> we're moving too
[22:17:22] <alex_joni> these days sometimes
[22:17:22] <robin_sz> yeah?
[22:17:25] <robin_sz> bigger?
[22:17:34] <alex_joni> a bit smaller, but ours
[22:17:40] <robin_sz> right
[22:17:51] <alex_joni> it'll expand lateron
[22:17:54] <robin_sz> mine will be 250m^^2, but not mine
[22:18:27] <alex_joni> we have about 60m^2, and 150 office space
[22:18:33] <alex_joni> because office is the main activity
[22:18:37] <robin_sz> right
[22:18:51] <alex_joni> rest is only for service & repair & testing
[22:19:05] <robin_sz> 60 is quite small
[22:19:14] <robin_sz> a big bot would fill that
[22:19:19] <robin_sz> and bang on the walls ;)
[22:19:25] <alex_joni> well, no big bots there
[22:19:32] <alex_joni> it's 15 x 5
[22:19:38] <alex_joni> 75 m^2 ;)
[22:19:40] <robin_sz> big enough
[22:19:43] <alex_joni> my math is crappy ;)
[22:19:52] <alex_joni> 3.5m high
[22:20:08] <robin_sz> enough for 1 medium sized bot
[22:20:20] <robin_sz> and no walls if you press the wrong button
[22:20:23] <alex_joni> this is mostly for manual welders & such
[22:20:27] <robin_sz> right
[22:20:51] <alex_joni> the walls are 80mm sandwich (metal sheets on the outside ~.8mm, foam between)
[22:21:15] <robin_sz> almost bot proof
[22:21:21] <robin_sz> *almost* :)
[22:21:23] <alex_joni> we worry about heat
[22:21:27] <alex_joni> not about bots :)
[22:21:39] <robin_sz> keeping the office warm?
[22:21:40] <alex_joni> a run-away bot can be really bad :D
[22:21:45] <alex_joni> no, this is for repairs
[22:21:48] <alex_joni> office is a house
[22:21:52] <robin_sz> right
[22:21:58] <robin_sz> keeping the shop warm?
[22:22:16] <robin_sz> we have a heat problem too
[22:22:16] <alex_joni> yup, we do have heating & all (well planned at least, not 100% done yet)
[22:22:30] <robin_sz> but we solved ours ...
[22:22:31] <alex_joni> but 80mm insulation all around should be enough to keep the heat inside I guess
[22:22:43] <robin_sz> we just open all the doors and put some fans on :)
[22:23:08] <robin_sz> you'd be amazed what a 30kw laser does for your heating :)
[22:23:43] <alex_joni> 30kw laser ????
[22:23:49] <robin_sz> well, input power
[22:24:06] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok, got scared
[22:24:10] <alex_joni> for a moment ;)
[22:24:14] <robin_sz> fsck yeah
[22:24:22] <alex_joni> still lots
[22:24:22] <robin_sz> 30 out would be SCARY
[22:24:36] <alex_joni> I've seen 5kW out, and it's scary
[22:24:42] <robin_sz> I think they got co2 upt to about 12
[22:24:44] <jmkasunich> what do you get out for 30kW in?
[22:24:47] <alex_joni> yeah
[22:24:50] <alex_joni> 2-3
[22:24:55] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: 800
[22:25:08] <alex_joni> robin_sz: yag?
[22:25:13] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[22:25:18] <jmkasunich> so efficiency something like 3%
[22:25:20] <alex_joni> plenty ;)
[22:25:20] <jmkasunich> eww
[22:25:35] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: 3% on that stuff is good :)
[22:25:41] <jmkasunich> true
[22:25:42] <jmkasunich> I
[22:25:43] <robin_sz> yeah, same as about 1500 to 1800 co2
[22:26:00] <jmkasunich> I'm just accustomed to vfds with 97% efficiency
[22:26:08] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:26:20] <alex_joni> robin_sz: just had a spotwelder at the fair recently that sucks 50kW
[22:26:27] <robin_sz> heh
[22:26:32] <alex_joni> and that's a SMALL one
[22:26:34] <robin_sz> but only low duty cycle
[22:26:42] <alex_joni> they go up to 630kW
[22:26:47] <robin_sz> gulp
[22:26:51] <alex_joni> 40-50%
[22:26:54] <robin_sz> coo
[22:27:03] <robin_sz> welding what?
[22:27:08] <alex_joni> plates
[22:27:08] <robin_sz> 20mm plate?
[22:27:16] <alex_joni> a bit smaller I think
[22:27:21] <alex_joni> 10+10
[22:27:27] <alex_joni> or a bit more
[22:27:32] <robin_sz> tack .. tack .. tack
[22:27:41] <robin_sz> just spotting a bit of 10mm together
[22:27:41] <jmkasunich> the drive we were testing a couple weeks ago was running 850kW continuous
[22:27:48] <robin_sz> ungh!
[22:27:50] <alex_joni> tack - sfrrr - sfsshhh
[22:28:00] <robin_sz> OK, 850 into what? ...
[22:28:03] <jmkasunich> a motor
[22:28:04] <robin_sz> a big motor?
[22:28:08] <jmkasunich> yeah
[22:28:08] <robin_sz> driving waht?
[22:28:12] <alex_joni> yikes ;)
[22:28:14] <alex_joni> a big wheel
[22:28:18] <jmkasunich> another motor acting as a generator
[22:28:23] <robin_sz> right ...
[22:28:25] <jmkasunich> returning most of the power back to the line
[22:28:28] <robin_sz> heh
[22:28:30] <robin_sz> neat
[22:28:42] <alex_joni> and what was the purpose?
[22:28:48] <jmkasunich> testing the drive
[22:28:54] <robin_sz> thats one way of keeping the costs down I guess
[22:28:56] <alex_joni> ahhh.. ok
[22:29:05] <jmkasunich> 2x500MCM cables per phase, and they got hot
[22:29:19] <robin_sz> wow
[22:29:33] <robin_sz> and this is one of your designs?
[22:29:36] <jmkasunich> yeah
[22:29:49] <jmkasunich> next project is a half size one, then we go on to the real fun
[22:29:55] <jmkasunich> paralleling 2 or 3 of the big ones
[22:29:55] <robin_sz> couple of IR mosfets and a big heat sink?
[22:29:57] <alex_joni> real fun?
[22:30:11] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: how much is your life insurance?
[22:30:23] <jmkasunich> four Eupec 450A x 1200V IGBT modules and a water cooled heatsink
[22:30:31] <robin_sz> nice
[22:30:43] <robin_sz> on of my custoemrs uses nic wc heatsinks
[22:30:51] <robin_sz> like a block of ally
[22:31:00] <robin_sz> a U shaped groove
[22:31:06] <robin_sz> and a copper pipe pressed in
[22:31:08] <alex_joni> our welding sources are usually stainless
[22:31:17] <alex_joni> well the wc heatsinks I mean
[22:31:23] <jmkasunich> I've seen those sinks
[22:31:49] <jmkasunich> not good enough for our stuff, not enough surface area, and too much thermal resistance between aly and tube
[22:31:49] <robin_sz> I saw a really crappy welder last week .. cemont? italian thing
[22:32:17] <robin_sz> open the top, pcb on stick-pad plastic pillars,
[22:32:35] <robin_sz> IGBT mounted onthe 1.6mm thick case
[22:32:42] <jmkasunich> we take a 1" thick aly plate, mill multiple parallel water grooves in it (about 3mm x 15mm each, 10 or so in parallel) then vacuum braze a 1/2" plate on to cover the grooves
[22:32:47] <robin_sz> that was about it really
[22:33:02] <robin_sz> vac braze?
[22:33:05] <jmkasunich> yeah
[22:33:11] <jmkasunich> an outside vendor does it
[22:33:23] <robin_sz> coo
[22:33:36] <jmkasunich> thin foil of braze alloy between the two parts, clamp, put in furnace
[22:33:43] <robin_sz> wow
[22:33:45] <jmkasunich> comes out hermetically sealed
[22:33:47] <robin_sz> nice trick
[22:33:58] <alex_joni> you can do that with pressure too
[22:34:03] <jmkasunich> the part is about 6" x 1.5" x 24" when finished
[22:34:09] <alex_joni> seens some machines that do that (instead of heat)
[22:34:15] <robin_sz> wow
[22:34:30] <robin_sz> must need a very accurate furnace
[22:34:40] <alex_joni> robin_sz: btw, with a good power source you can do brazing aswell
[22:34:44] <jmkasunich> you mean temp control?
[22:34:44] <alex_joni> not only welding ;)
[22:34:55] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: yeah, temp
[22:35:14] <robin_sz> alex_joni: the best power source for that has bottles attached ;)
[22:35:36] <robin_sz> speaking of which ...
[22:35:41] <alex_joni> no,I mean arc-brazing
[22:35:47] <alex_joni> just like welding, with wire
[22:35:54] <robin_sz> prepare for a long but funny story
[22:35:55] <alex_joni> but bronze wire, and lower amps
[22:36:02] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure how critical temp is, I think the braze alloy melts a couple hundred degrees (F) lower than the aluminum
[22:36:10] <jmkasunich> and the vacuum takes care of oxide issues
[22:36:18] <robin_sz> we have a long running dispute with our gas supplier ...
[22:36:27] <robin_sz> the local agent has poor service etc
[22:36:41] <alex_joni> what supplier?
[22:36:51] <robin_sz> the rep called in .. I moaned at him about crap handling, lack of bottle trolley etc etc
[22:36:54] <robin_sz> BOC
[22:37:04] <alex_joni> doesn't ring a bell.. go on ;)
[22:37:12] <robin_sz> anyway ... dropped a bottle in to swap out ...
[22:37:37] <robin_sz> the bottle guy was unhlepful .. and the rep turned up bang on cue ...
[22:37:49] <robin_sz> I asked for the bottle trolley ...
[22:38:06] <robin_sz> the unhelpful guy just said "oh ... drag it .. move, I'll do it" ...
[22:38:22] <robin_sz> dragged it 10m down the concrete yard ...
[22:38:37] <robin_sz> and going backwards, tripped over a palette
[22:38:54] <alex_joni> and the bottle fell over him?
[22:38:55] <robin_sz> which had a plastic sheet full of rainwater that he sat in
[22:39:03] <robin_sz> then the bottle got him :)
[22:39:09] <alex_joni> ouch :)
[22:39:16] <robin_sz> how I laughed
[22:39:17] <alex_joni> that'll teach him
[22:39:29] <alex_joni> I usually rotate the bottles
[22:39:36] <alex_joni> very easy to move around
[22:39:42] <robin_sz> I use a trolley, or I dont bother
[22:39:57] <alex_joni> need to tilt them 15 degs, then you can rotate with one hand, and steer with the other
[22:40:22] <robin_sz> yeah, done it .. but i'd rather not
[22:40:28] <robin_sz> insurance and all that
[22:41:55] <robin_sz> so alex
[22:42:15] <robin_sz> think these 90,8,2 mixes have anyting going for them?
[22:43:20] <alex_joni> yes and no
[22:43:31] <alex_joni> special gases are good, I can't argue that
[22:43:35] <alex_joni> but they are expensive too
[22:43:45] <alex_joni> local gas suppliers swear for He mixes
[22:43:51] <alex_joni> which are darn expensive
[22:43:57] <robin_sz> well, they would
[22:44:15] <alex_joni> I usually prefer Corgon-18
[22:44:27] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:44:35] <alex_joni> 82-18 or better (90-10, 95-5 if I can ;)
[22:44:42] <robin_sz> normally 85-15 for us
[22:44:50] <alex_joni> right, that's pretty good
[22:44:59] <alex_joni> 80-20 is the limit for pulsed welding
[22:45:07] <alex_joni> anything with more CO2 doesn't work
[22:45:09] <robin_sz> good for the 3 to 5mm sort of thing, short arc
[22:45:20] <alex_joni> short arc should work on pure CO2
[22:45:27] <alex_joni> but it'll spatter all over the place
[22:45:33] <robin_sz> exactly
[22:45:42] <alex_joni> you'll get better welding shape though, as CO2 arcs are hotter
[22:45:43] <robin_sz> and this needs to be watertight when done
[22:46:02] <alex_joni> so CO2 gives more weld penetration, at the cost of spatter
[22:46:11] <robin_sz> right
[22:46:30] <alex_joni> so for your setup as much CO2 as possible (85-15 or more)
[22:46:31] <robin_sz> the heavy mix is 25% co2 i think, medium is 15
[22:46:39] <robin_sz> light is 5 I think
[22:46:43] <alex_joni> if you add 2-3% O2 it makes it better
[22:46:52] <robin_sz> thats what they said
[22:47:00] <alex_joni> yes, they are right
[22:47:06] <alex_joni> if the cost is ok, go for it
[22:47:24] <robin_sz> they suggested a 90,8,2 would match up wwell to our 85-15
[22:47:25] <alex_joni> but I advise against He-gases (where the cost is double)
[22:47:30] <robin_sz> right
[22:47:44] <alex_joni> 90,8,2 is probably 10-20% more costly
[22:48:03] <robin_sz> this comes in a smaller 300bar bottle, same cap as a big bottle
[22:48:14] <alex_joni> less CO2 (which is cheap), more Argon and O2
[22:48:15] <robin_sz> with integral reulator
[22:48:22] <alex_joni> huh, never seen those?
[22:48:28] <robin_sz> quite cute
[22:48:37] <alex_joni> what kind of regulator?
[22:48:41] <robin_sz> the flow rate is set by an orrifice inthe fitting you connect with
[22:48:49] <alex_joni> bleah
[22:48:53] <robin_sz> so easy for the welders to swap bottles
[22:48:59] <alex_joni> yeah, but not accurate
[22:49:03] <robin_sz> and stops them turning it all up and runing the gas ot in an hour
[22:49:07] <alex_joni> it costs money to waste gas :)
[22:49:13] <alex_joni> right
[22:49:19] <alex_joni> 1.2mm wire?
[22:49:33] <robin_sz> well, welders always go for more gas than they need .. "to be safe"
[22:49:36] <robin_sz> 1.0
[22:49:39] <robin_sz> 15l/min
[22:49:45] <alex_joni> ok, so about 12l I'd recomend
[22:49:51] <alex_joni> 15 is ok for 1.2
[22:49:55] <robin_sz> yeah ..
[22:49:57] <alex_joni> what gas nozzle size?
[22:50:04] <robin_sz> ?
[22:50:12] <robin_sz> potato?
[22:50:18] <alex_joni> ?
[22:50:21] <alex_joni> ;-)
[22:50:28] <alex_joni> you know the wire tip
[22:50:33] <robin_sz> yeah ...
[22:50:34] <alex_joni> where the wire goes through
[22:50:38] <robin_sz> uh huh
[22:50:41] <alex_joni> that's current tip or nozzle
[22:50:47] <robin_sz> right
[22:51:02] <alex_joni> outside there's the gas nozzle (we call it), between the two travels the gas
[22:51:08] <robin_sz> right
[22:51:12] <alex_joni> the metallic one
[22:51:18] <robin_sz> I know ...
[22:51:25] <alex_joni> which you usually pull-off to put another one
[22:51:39] <robin_sz> AHH
[22:51:42] <robin_sz> that ..
[22:51:43] <robin_sz> the ...
[22:51:44] <alex_joni> usual sizes are 10-15mm diameter
[22:51:46] <robin_sz> errmm
[22:51:49] <robin_sz> yes
[22:51:51] <robin_sz> that thing
[22:52:03] <alex_joni> the one that gets spatter on it ;)
[22:52:06] <robin_sz> id say, 20mm
[22:52:15] <robin_sz> its a Binzel MB25 ...
[22:52:20] <alex_joni> and creates that nice ring.. which falls into the weld when you are not carefull
[22:52:28] <robin_sz> or MB15 for light stuff
[22:52:41] <robin_sz> ah .. yes the nice spatter ring
[22:52:54] <alex_joni> do you use anti-spatter-spray?
[22:52:59] <alex_joni> or grease?
[22:53:08] <robin_sz> sometimes use spray
[22:53:13] <alex_joni> grease is better
[22:53:15] <robin_sz> must get some tip grease
[22:53:29] <alex_joni> welder only dips the whole welding head into it
[22:53:43] <alex_joni> with wire & the MB25 & the current tip ;)
[22:53:51] <alex_joni> lots faster, and works better
[22:53:52] <robin_sz> yeah yeah
[22:54:03] <alex_joni> btw, how do you spray ?
[22:54:14] <robin_sz> like this ...
[22:54:15] <alex_joni> that's one of the most common mistakes on MAG welding
[22:54:23] <robin_sz> <spray> ... <spray> ;)
[22:54:27] <alex_joni> inside the gas nozzle? or perpendicular?
[22:54:37] <robin_sz> oh
[22:54:44] <alex_joni> inside is wrong
[22:54:48] <robin_sz> oh
[22:54:49] <alex_joni> but they all do it like that
[22:55:04] <alex_joni> the idea is to prevent the spatter ring
[22:55:07] <robin_sz> right
[22:55:15] <alex_joni> spatter doesn't get inside the gas nozzle
[22:55:27] <alex_joni> but if you spray in there, you'll get a sticky surface
[22:55:33] <alex_joni> where sh*t builds up
[22:55:42] <robin_sz> we often use a soap-based anti spatter on the workpiece too
[22:55:46] <alex_joni> which gets you more into trouble then when you don't spray at all
[22:56:38] <robin_sz> basically a sopay water mix, stops spatter sticking to important bits of steel
[22:56:48] <robin_sz> maybe
[22:57:33] <alex_joni> right
[22:57:49] <alex_joni> but it might cause defects if it gets in the welding area
[22:58:00] <alex_joni> water & arc-welding don't mix well ;)
[22:59:17] <CIA-10> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/halui.cc: halui.motion.is-on now shows the state of emc
[22:59:35] <robin_sz> as a rule, it evaporates long before
[22:59:38] <alex_joni> DARN.. I meant machine.is-on
[22:59:49] <alex_joni> robin_sz: then it's safe
[23:00:23] <robin_sz> sigh ...
[23:00:28] <robin_sz> OK, explain to me ...
[23:00:50] <robin_sz> how did I swap a software contract in geneva for a job as a welder fabricator?
[23:01:05] <robin_sz> * robin_sz is baffled
[23:01:11] <alex_joni> you were tired of stamps?
[23:01:16] <robin_sz> sorta
[23:01:21] <alex_joni> ;-)
[23:01:32] <robin_sz> they wanted me in NYC this week too
[23:01:35] <robin_sz> I declined
[23:01:45] <alex_joni> you know what I remember learnig as a first thing when playing with stamps?
[23:01:51] <robin_sz> I suspect they may decline to pay me this month in response :)
[23:02:04] <robin_sz> dont stick them in a book?
[23:02:19] <alex_joni> no, try not to let your reflexes work
[23:02:29] <alex_joni> if you drop a stamp, don't let your legs close
[23:02:34] <robin_sz> heh
[23:02:37] <alex_joni> just let it fall to the ground :D
[23:02:53] <robin_sz> and then look BEFORE you move
[23:03:00] <alex_joni> you can safely pick it up later.. but if you act on reflex and try to catch it with your feet ..
[23:03:51] <alex_joni> robin_sz: btw, did you know emc2 does threading?
[23:04:04] <robin_sz> as in on a lathe?
[23:04:22] <alex_joni> yah, that kind
[23:04:27] <robin_sz> coo
[23:04:40] <robin_sz> what is slaved to what?
[23:04:40] <alex_joni> needs some testing though.. code is still wet
[23:04:50] <alex_joni> TP to spindle
[23:04:55] <robin_sz> nice
[23:05:30] <robin_sz> just basic threading?
[23:05:36] <robin_sz> or multi-start?
[23:05:52] <alex_joni> basic for now
[23:05:59] <alex_joni> rest will come later
[23:06:09] <robin_sz> long awaited !
[23:06:12] <robin_sz> well done!
[23:06:20] <alex_joni> thanks go to chris ;)
[23:06:31] <robin_sz> anyone actually tried it yet?
[23:06:37] <alex_joni> he's our personal TP guru ;)
[23:06:47] <alex_joni> not yet, only simulating & scoping with HAL
[23:07:09] <robin_sz> planning on using what for the spindle?
[23:07:38] <alex_joni> sorry?
[23:07:46] <robin_sz> what sort of sensor?
[23:07:53] <alex_joni> encoder
[23:07:58] <alex_joni> but it's basicly a HAL pin
[23:08:02] <alex_joni> so anything goes
[23:08:03] <robin_sz> errm
[23:08:14] <jmkasunich> the code is _very_ wet right now
[23:08:16] <robin_sz> fitting encoders to spindles can be tricky
[23:08:30] <alex_joni> it can be a tach, or whatever
[23:08:32] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't go around saying "emc has threading" for a while yet
[23:08:36] <robin_sz> right
[23:08:39] <alex_joni> nah, me neither
[23:08:40] <jmkasunich> don't want to give false impressions
[23:08:46] <robin_sz> emce has a threading egg laid :)
[23:08:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: but I knew robin_sz wouldn't run off to start his lathe with the latest emc2
[23:09:00] <alex_joni> :)
[23:09:08] <alex_joni> robin_sz: :-P
[23:09:16] <jmkasunich> but everyone else on the channel heard you say it ;-)
[23:09:37] <alex_joni> huh? anyone around?
[23:09:46] <skunkworks> crap - I have the lathe all set up. - no not really.
[23:09:53] <alex_joni> durn
[23:09:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni shuts up
[23:10:04] <robin_sz> well, I assume they all are clueful enough to know it means "the basic bit of code is there, no gcodes, no GUI support yet"
[23:10:38] <robin_sz> Mach2, for its sins, uses a clever tach system
[23:11:01] <robin_sz> about 6 black line son the white spindle
[23:11:15] <robin_sz> one line is double width for index
[23:11:22] <robin_sz> and a software PLL
[23:11:32] <robin_sz> simple reflective IR sensor ...
[23:11:37] <robin_sz> thats it really
[23:12:09] <alex_joni> robin_sz: btw, do you know how to do proper grounding?
[23:12:20] <robin_sz> on what?
[23:12:21] <alex_joni> earthing I mean
[23:12:25] <alex_joni> on a shop
[23:12:26] <jmkasunich> that spindle sensor sounds interesting
[23:12:35] <robin_sz> oh, that depends a lot on local codes
[23:12:48] <jmkasunich> maybe at some point I'll make a hal module to do that and generate a more conventional output that can go to emc
[23:12:49] <alex_joni> local codes only say <4 ohm
[23:13:06] <robin_sz> alex_joni: really? coo
[23:13:09] <jmkasunich> ground wires should be fat, short, and green ;-)
[23:13:22] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I meant the sticks I stick in the ground
[23:13:29] <jmkasunich> oh
[23:13:30] <alex_joni> and connect the short fat wires to them ;)
[23:13:30] <robin_sz> alex_joni: star earth point is my personal preference
[23:13:41] <jmkasunich> fat, long, and pointy
[23:13:48] <robin_sz> alex_joni: foregt the spike it the ground, mostly useless
[23:13:53] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: they are 1m, 1.5m, 2m
[23:14:02] <robin_sz> VERY useless in fact
[23:14:07] <alex_joni> I stuck about 5 of those in the ground
[23:14:12] <robin_sz> why?
[23:14:17] <alex_joni> with 5x20mm strip between them
[23:14:19] <jmkasunich> do you have buried pipes? water lines, etc
[23:14:28] <alex_joni> and salty water around them
[23:14:44] <robin_sz> but waht did you hope to acheive?
[23:15:12] <alex_joni> robin_sz: earthing point
[23:15:41] <robin_sz> well, if it helps you sleep at night
[23:15:54] <alex_joni> robin_sz: it's mostly for getting approvals
[23:16:09] <robin_sz> here, we just bond all the water pipes etc to a common point
[23:16:24] <robin_sz> and connect that to the incoming neutral
[23:16:34] <alex_joni> oh, that's not allowed here
[23:16:46] <jmkasunich> what about building steel?
[23:16:54] <alex_joni> we need L1,L2,L3,N,PE
[23:17:00] <robin_sz> so do we
[23:17:03] <alex_joni> so N & PE need not to be connected
[23:17:21] <robin_sz> oh, but here they are connected in the incoming cable
[23:17:39] <robin_sz> called PME ...
[23:18:00] <robin_sz> everyone connects neutral to the incoming services and building framework
[23:18:12] <alex_joni> right
[23:18:26] <robin_sz> your system is TTN ...much more difficult to set up
[23:18:38] <robin_sz> and useless insummer
[23:19:00] <alex_joni> TTN?
[23:19:27] <robin_sz> you need live to earht resistance low enough to pull your biggest fuse in 20ms usually
[23:19:36] <alex_joni> right
[23:19:48] <robin_sz> 4 ohms may not be enough
[23:20:07] <alex_joni> otoh, what I'm setting up is about 16kW
[23:20:08] <robin_sz> very difficult to achieve i would think
[23:20:10] <alex_joni> so not crucial
[23:20:19] <fenn> * fenn notes that "ground" is tied to "neutral" in his breaker box..
[23:20:27] <robin_sz> indeed
[23:20:40] <robin_sz> we call that PME
[23:20:48] <fenn> what does PME stand for?
[23:20:51] <alex_joni> I know PMS
[23:20:55] <alex_joni> but PME is new ;)
[23:20:57] <robin_sz> protective multiple earthing
[23:21:10] <robin_sz> basicallym the house is a farday cage
[23:21:36] <robin_sz> its not earth .. but hey, locally, it is
[23:21:56] <alex_joni> robin_sz: what if it's a wooden house?
[23:22:02] <robin_sz> oh, this can be a Bad Plan (tm) for farm buildings :)
[23:22:15] <fenn> why is that?
[23:22:19] <robin_sz> well ...
[23:22:28] <robin_sz> you have this barn ...
[23:22:29] <alex_joni> long lines..
[23:22:46] <robin_sz> and the steelwork is connected to neutral right ...
[23:23:00] <robin_sz> and one pahse gets broken at the local substation
[23:23:15] <robin_sz> so neutral becomes a bit "live" ...
[23:23:34] <robin_sz> no problem in the barn .. and no problem for humans as they walk out ...
[23:23:43] <robin_sz> but cows are quite long ..
[23:23:58] <fenn> it shorts at wherever neutral is tied to ground right?
[23:24:05] <robin_sz> no ...
[23:24:18] <robin_sz> the entire building is going up and down at say 200V
[23:24:32] <alex_joni> robin_sz: at my mountain house, I measured about 30V on neutral
[23:24:41] <alex_joni> enough to light a lightbulg
[23:24:41] <robin_sz> its sitting on its own little potential hill OK>
[23:25:09] <robin_sz> human would get, say max 20V between his feet on a stride of 1m
[23:25:21] <robin_sz> a cow could get say 100V ...
[23:25:41] <robin_sz> (mmm .. 10m cow?)
[23:25:43] <robin_sz> anyway ..
[23:25:58] <robin_sz> they cover a longer part of the potential gradient
[23:26:19] <fenn> i think my brain just turned off
[23:26:33] <alex_joni> fenn: what ? you've never seen 10m cows?
[23:26:34] <robin_sz> heh
[23:26:40] <jmkasunich> robin: its not neccessarily that the cow could get enough to kill it
[23:26:49] <fenn> * fenn goes to raise his blood sugar or something
[23:26:56] <robin_sz> well, it does happen apparently
[23:26:56] <jmkasunich> I think even a couple volts makes dairy cows stop giving milk
[23:27:03] <robin_sz> oh
[23:27:07] <robin_sz> wow
[23:27:07] <jmkasunich> I've read that somewhere
[23:27:16] <robin_sz> thats even worse than dead
[23:27:24] <robin_sz> non-profitable cows!
[23:27:31] <jmkasunich> at least dead you can cook em
[23:27:34] <alex_joni> yeah, and they keep eating
[23:27:36] <robin_sz> or claim
[23:27:57] <robin_sz> here, we have to incinerate ALL fallen stock
[23:28:11] <alex_joni> robin_sz: we do that on birds
[23:28:12] <jmkasunich> BSE?
[23:28:13] <alex_joni> ;)
[23:28:26] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: dont think we have that any more
[23:28:35] <jmkasunich> hence the incineration to make sure?
[23:28:47] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: yeah, it was an EU regulation afaik
[23:28:55] <robin_sz> just general EU stuff I tink
[23:28:57] <alex_joni> and it made quite a difference
[23:29:06] <robin_sz> I cut a lot of parts for animal burners
[23:29:08] <alex_joni> from lots of cases to almost none
[23:29:24] <alex_joni> although all that might have been propaganda
[23:29:30] <robin_sz> alex_joni: well, no one owns up to any cases anyway
[23:29:44] <robin_sz> esp the french
[23:30:13] <alex_joni> yeah, well the bird stuff worries me lots more than BSE did
[23:30:26] <alex_joni> I think that was some political scheme to sell more chickens :D
[23:30:40] <robin_sz> I laser all the parts for these guys http://www.wastespectrum.co.uk/derwent.asp
[23:30:56] <alex_joni> laser the cows, it's easier :D
[23:31:58] <jepler> *gorge rises*
[23:32:37] <alex_joni> who rises?
[23:33:35] <jmkasunich> vomit
[23:34:26] <robin_sz> I find the whole idea of buring animals a bit repulsive .. bt I just cut steel ...
[23:34:32] <robin_sz> burning
[23:34:42] <jepler> gorge, n. 3. The throat; the gullet: The gory sight made my gorge rise.
[23:34:47] <jepler> http://www.answers.com/gorge
[23:35:33] <jmkasunich> more like 6 - the contents of the stomach
[23:37:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni burns parts of animals
[23:37:49] <alex_joni> they are called steaks usually
[23:38:10] <jmkasunich> mmmm, cow slices
[23:38:32] <jmkasunich> don't burn them tho, just singe them a little around the edges
[23:38:55] <alex_joni> you need a very hot fire, to burn the outside, keep the juices in ;)
[23:39:02] <alex_joni> only 2-3mm on each side
[23:39:12] <alex_joni> from the 15-20mm slice :D
[23:39:31] <jmkasunich> yean
[23:39:33] <jmkasunich> yeah
[23:39:44] <jmkasunich> but not burned, that implies black and crunchy
[23:39:54] <jmkasunich> just seared - brown and tasty
[23:40:00] <cradek> ugh.
[23:40:09] <jmkasunich> vegetarian?
[23:40:39] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hasnt eaten meat for nearly 25 years now
[23:40:49] <jmkasunich> wow
[23:41:04] <jmkasunich> I thought curries and such had meat in them?
[23:41:11] <robin_sz> not usually
[23:41:25] <robin_sz> most of india is vegetarian remember
[23:41:32] <jmkasunich> rices and spices eh?
[23:41:50] <robin_sz> beef curry is a western thing
[23:42:07] <cradek> I'm also vegetarian
[23:42:26] <robin_sz> I shot way too much wildlife when I was young ... put me right off eating the stuff
[23:42:40] <alex_joni> cradek: wanna read something funny?
[23:42:41] <jmkasunich> ok, no more discussion of steak
[23:42:46] <robin_sz> heh
[23:42:55] <robin_sz> talk all you like ...
[23:42:59] <alex_joni> cradek: http://www.linuxcnc.org/EMC_news_history/Meeting2003.html
[23:43:01] <cradek> robin_sz: most people let the factories do the dirty work for them, and not worry about it
[23:43:28] <alex_joni> a nice snip: "Change method of passing commands from motion planner to interpolators to allow for control of maximum velocity and acceleration to be set independently for each axis."
[23:43:32] <robin_sz> cradek: exactly, but I do worry still, as Ive seen it and done it and wont do it muyself
[23:43:50] <robin_sz> cradek: to "try and not think about it" would be hypocritical for me
[23:44:07] <cradek> robin_sz: I know, I'm not saying that's the way to be
[23:44:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[23:44:26] <cradek> robin_sz: letting someone else do your dirty work doesn't make it ok, it makes it worse.
[23:44:33] <cradek> alex_joni: too many words for me to read!
[23:44:41] <alex_joni> just what I pasted
[23:44:50] <jmkasunich> he's saying most folkw hide their head inthe sand and pretend meat doesn't come from animals
[23:45:00] <cradek> right
[23:45:43] <robin_sz> cradek: I dont get too concerend, as I know I cant change the world, and if other people are happy then I wont try and chagen them, but I have to be happy with my deciisions and conscience
[23:46:10] <cradek> robin_sz: me too.
[23:46:18] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: yeah, im agreeing with him ;)
[23:46:50] <robin_sz> oh, right, thats my only other bit of news ... got a new barrel on my rifle ..
[23:47:04] <robin_sz> now, that is an engineering masterpeice ...
[23:47:06] <jmkasunich> again?
[23:47:20] <robin_sz> first one on a LONG while
[23:47:34] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[23:47:35] <jmkasunich> I thought you talked about that a month or so ago?
[23:47:40] <robin_sz> right ...
[23:47:45] <robin_sz> thats when it went off
[23:47:46] <jmkasunich> or maybe you talked about planning to do it
[23:47:50] <robin_sz> could be
[23:47:53] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[23:48:03] <robin_sz> you know how they are made,
[23:48:08] <robin_sz> tungsten plug
[23:48:12] <robin_sz> pushed through
[23:48:36] <robin_sz> with grooves at just the right angle to give 1 turn in say, 16 inches
[23:48:38] <jmkasunich> not cut rifling?
[23:48:53] <robin_sz> no, cut is not really that common any more
[23:48:59] <robin_sz> this is button rifling
[23:49:06] <jmkasunich> how do they deal with residual stress from the displacement of metal?
[23:49:13] <jmkasunich> heat treating after?
[23:49:27] <robin_sz> well, they do .. or sometimes cryo treat
[23:49:47] <robin_sz> and the OD near the muzzle is bigger
[23:49:51] <robin_sz> so more metal
[23:50:04] <robin_sz> so tighter bore at the muzzle
[23:50:07] <robin_sz> by a few tenths
[23:50:10] <jmkasunich> clever
[23:50:15] <robin_sz> but get this ...
[23:50:21] <robin_sz> this one has progressive twist
[23:50:28] <jmkasunich> I shot a ruger 22 pistol with a 6" bull barrel a couple weeks ago - nice
[23:50:30] <robin_sz> starts off straighter ...
[23:50:40] <robin_sz> ends up at 1:16
[23:50:49] <jmkasunich> thats interesting
[23:51:05] <robin_sz> the bullet accelrates laterally in the first 4"
[23:51:18] <robin_sz> but the radial accel is spread over the lenght of the barrel
[23:51:42] <robin_sz> what I wanna know is how the hell they make that!
[23:51:46] <jmkasunich> yeah
[23:52:09] <jmkasunich> the change can't be too radical, or the land impressions in the bullet would be all fscked up
[23:52:19] <robin_sz> sure
[23:52:58] <robin_sz> anyway .. be intersting to see how it tests on the rig next month
[23:53:37] <giacus> night
[23:54:06] <skunkworks> this is what I have been spending too much time on
[23:54:08] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/TUB.JPG
[23:54:39] <jmkasunich> fancy
[23:54:55] <skunkworks> I could be tinkering ;)
[23:55:04] <jmkasunich> hope that window is well insulated
[23:55:10] <robin_sz> tub!
[23:55:22] <jmkasunich> sitting naked and wet next to a drafty window in winter.....
[23:55:47] <skunkworks> not a problem ;)
[23:55:51] <jmkasunich> that is snow on the roof outside itsn't it?
[23:56:17] <robin_sz> the best hottubs are outdoors anyway :)
[23:56:18] <skunkworks> no - but there was a few days ago
[23:56:55] <skunkworks> tiling is going to be fun :(
[23:57:23] <robin_sz> tiles on wood ...
[23:57:26] <robin_sz> always FUN
[23:57:37] <robin_sz> for some definitions of fun
[23:57:58] <robin_sz> wanna tip?
[23:58:08] <skunkworks> tons of cemet board that has to go up.
[23:58:15] <skunkworks> cement
[23:58:18] <skunkworks> whatever
[23:58:29] <skunkworks> probably a ton
[23:58:39] <robin_sz> grout the tiles likely to get wet with silicone :0
[23:59:37] <skunkworks> that would be a lot - to the right is going to be a walk in shower
[23:59:46] <robin_sz> silicone grouting takes a while, but works well on for tiles on a wooden substrate