#emc | Logs for 2006-02-24

[00:00:05] <les_w> there is the minor matter of splitting it
[00:00:16] <dmessier> crap & marsh-mellows...
[00:00:23] <les_w> yeah it smells bad...red oak wet does
[00:00:49] <dmessier> yes...how big are the chunks..
[00:01:13] <dmessier> 2 man to start with or handleable??
[00:01:22] <les_w> way big. Some is split, but the other is a bucked up 4 foot diameter tree
[00:01:41] <les_w> I left a 16 foot saw log
[00:01:59] <les_w> but it is so heavy we may not be able to get it out
[00:02:04] <dmessier> shite
[00:02:10] <les_w> yeah
[00:02:21] <dmessier> i hate when i do that
[00:02:42] <les_w> It's too big for the wood mizer mill
[00:03:04] <dmessier> use the roughing chainsaw on it first
[00:03:07] <les_w> mill about a mile away could cut it
[00:03:17] <dmessier> or go there
[00:03:38] <les_w> I am trying to get my cousin to rough it out with a big chainsaw
[00:03:59] <les_w> it's gettin it on the truck that is the problem
[00:04:07] <dmessier> i used to be THE cousin...
[00:04:22] <dmessier> take the saw to the tree
[00:04:28] <les_w> it's 4 feet at one end...about 3 at the other
[00:04:42] <dmessier> cool...
[00:04:46] <les_w> the woodmizer is on a trailer
[00:04:53] <les_w> but the log is too big
[00:05:05] <dmessier> slabs for mounting fish for the next 10 yrs...LOL
[00:05:11] <les_w> yeah
[00:05:19] <les_w> or flooring
[00:05:37] <les_w> all the limbs firewood of course
[00:05:41] <dmessier> take the saw start at the big end and nibble her down..
[00:05:43] <les_w> tons and tons and tons
[00:06:08] <les_w> 36" max on the woodmiser
[00:06:32] <les_w> has a 24 hp honda engine
[00:06:44] <dmessier> make 3-6 " slabs or as long as 1 pass will take... then roll 90 degs
[00:07:14] <dmessier> 1 pass on your chansaw blade
[00:07:29] <les_w> it's things like "roll 90" that are issues
[00:07:41] <les_w> hope we caN DO IT
[00:07:48] <les_w> oops
[00:07:56] <les_w> keystick.
[00:08:25] <dmessier> chain block... or come along... block up the other end so it wont move but can roll around
[00:08:55] <les_w> My tractor FEL can only do 220
[00:09:02] <dmessier> do a wrap over and pull it over..
[00:09:04] <les_w> but cousin has a real big one
[00:09:15] <les_w> 2200 not 220
[00:09:37] <dmessier> datsa saw
[00:10:08] <les_w> We'll tackle it as soon as it warms up and I can get away from the lab work a little
[00:10:42] <les_w> but as I said...Im under a bit of pressure
[00:11:12] <dmessier> breath... 3 deep breaths...its what we wanted...
[00:11:24] <les_w> ha
[00:11:29] <dmessier> right.. its gonna be GREAT
[00:11:47] <dmessier> no try... just DO
[00:12:01] <les_w> I think this one is a winner.
[00:12:17] <les_w> They don't all work...but this is looking real good.
[00:12:50] <dmessier> thats the process variabilities...
[00:13:24] <dmessier> mine looks REALLY good too.. thats why in installing it at my fathers cottage first.
[00:13:31] <les_w> well I have to invent it but also invent how to make it
[00:13:39] <les_w> all I can say is...
[00:13:45] <dmessier> likewise
[00:13:53] <les_w> there will be lots of computer automation
[00:14:02] <les_w> just like the mirror heaters.
[00:14:14] <dmessier> cool..
[00:15:07] <dmessier> id like mine to be a pc and monitorable over the web... i can adjust a system in timbuckfudge
[00:15:12] <les_w> well...time for dinner and music room.
[00:15:27] <les_w> Don't spin your hang glider!
[00:15:37] <les_w> later
[00:15:52] <dmessier> not so bad in the HG ...BAAD in the pg...
[00:27:12] <Jymmm> for what it is, not a bad price... damn sears whats $40 for a all plastic one http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3888
[01:03:58] <les_w> ho hum
[01:04:02] <les_w> dinner's done
[01:04:53] <les_w> didn't turn on the sound system
[01:06:44] <giacus> night all
[01:06:59] <les_w> I had a nasty with the high power ultrasonics today anyway. A bad reflection. I didn't really here anything. but just felt a funny dizziness when I turned the resonator knob.
[01:07:14] <les_w> I'm gonna melt my brain or something...
[01:08:00] <les_w> hear not here
[01:08:03] <les_w> haha
[01:08:13] <Jymmm> les_w Ear Plugs, use em, love em
[01:08:30] <les_w> no I think this went through my head
[01:08:41] <les_w> I hasd on ear protectors
[01:08:47] <les_w> had
[01:09:10] <Jymmm> muffs + plugs maybe?
[01:09:40] <les_w> don't know...not sure ears were involved at all. didn't hear anything.
[01:10:04] <les_w> turn the knob....fell a surge of kind of dizziness
[01:10:08] <les_w> repeatable too
[01:10:13] <Jymmm> maybe time for noise suppersion material on the walls to absorb accidental exposure?
[01:10:35] <les_w> it is sound loud enough to burn things.
[01:11:18] <Jymmm> I can see it now.... "Local Engineer burns himself to death with soundwaves"
[01:11:28] <les_w> heh
[01:11:44] <Jymmm> just be careful with that shit, alright?
[01:11:52] <les_w> it's about 200 db
[01:11:58] <les_w> beats the music room
[01:12:12] <Jymmm> * Jymmm shakes his head
[01:12:55] <les_w> normally ultrasonics has no danger to hearing
[01:13:16] <les_w> but this is nonlinear....so can have subharmonics
[01:13:48] <les_w> also the nonlinearity makes multiply tuned resonators complicated.
[01:14:06] <les_w> they can suddenly "lock in"
[01:14:17] <les_w> i.e. quantum effects
[01:16:24] <les_w> the physics is much more like detonation shock waves than linear sound propagation
[01:17:36] <les_w> perhaps I did melt my brain.
[01:17:51] <les_w> well, just so it isn't the pleasure center.
[01:17:52] <les_w> haha
[01:19:43] <Jymmm> and it'll NEVER be that.... Murphy's Law
[01:19:56] <les_w> heh
[01:20:06] <Jymmm> what are these, endmills? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=34640
[01:20:27] <Jymmm> or drillbits?
[01:21:04] <les_w> it doesn't say
[01:21:24] <les_w> they are either pcb router bits or drilss ro both
[01:21:30] <les_w> drills
[01:21:36] <les_w> I have a bunch
[01:22:03] <Jymmm> for $6.50 I want them to be endmills =)
[01:22:08] <les_w> bad catalog...mystery tool.
[01:22:20] <Jymmm> I guess I can call them and ask
[01:22:54] <les_w> I think they are drills...from the number size description
[01:23:17] <Jymmm> bummer, I could have really used micro endmills
[01:23:33] <Jymmm> for that cheap, I can play around
[01:23:50] <les_w> plenty at drill bit city.
[01:24:00] <Jymmm> they raised their prices
[01:24:05] <les_w> yeah?
[01:24:12] <Jymmm> kinda ouch too.
[01:24:24] <Jymmm> at the first of the year.
[01:24:50] <les_w> the things are about $5 new.
[01:24:50] <Jymmm> screw it, it's only $6.50
[01:24:58] <les_w> These are resharpend ones
[01:25:03] <Jymmm> um, not from DPC
[01:25:38] <les_w> well, I rarely use them. they break too easily.
[01:26:13] <Jymmm> My cam won't let me do inlay even with 1/16" bit as it says it's too big
[01:26:34] <les_w> hmmm
[01:26:43] <les_w> oops skype call
[01:26:46] <Jymmm> k
[01:26:48] <les_w> from mexico
[01:27:00] <Jymmm> your Columbian Drug Lord?
[01:30:33] <les_w> ah dropped out
[01:30:52] <les_w> they want me to develop some part for a cell phone still
[01:31:19] <Jymmm> joystick
[01:31:25] <les_w> yeah.
[01:31:41] <Jymmm> I could sell you my phone and you just reverse engineer it =)
[01:32:16] <les_w> i'm booked up
[01:32:24] <les_w> when it rains it pours
[01:32:44] <Jymmm> yep =)
[01:33:14] <Jymmm> why dont you just open up a engineering service, then outsource things to others
[01:34:03] <Jymmm> you proof it, then take your 60%
[01:34:18] <Jymmm> + royalties of course
[01:35:47] <Jymmm> are these any good? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34233
[02:00:06] <les_w> prob ok
[02:00:09] <les_w> off now
[02:00:15] <Jymmm> bubye
[02:00:36] <les_w> whoa the skype turned into a lot of politics.
[02:00:42] <les_w> no off skype
[02:00:47] <les_w> still on here
[02:00:52] <Jymmm> oh, ok =)
[02:01:12] <Jymmm> just found this too... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93301
[02:01:14] <les_w> I think I am going to have an exciting spring and summer.
[02:01:45] <Jymmm> exciting or swamped?
[02:01:51] <Jymmm> brb... coffee
[02:01:55] <les_w> k
[02:02:12] <les_w> don't you want the $3000 itw one?
[02:12:11] <Jymmm> lol, um, sure... why not, I have money to burn
[02:12:44] <les_w> haha
[02:13:00] <les_w> I remember the demonstration.
[02:13:14] <les_w> It did a whole frame in about 3 seconds
[02:13:26] <Jymmm> I know it's gonna be a POS, but maybe I'll learn something.
[02:13:40] <les_w> yeah, grab it.
[02:13:46] <Jymmm> did you see the gun?
[02:13:52] <les_w> yeah
[02:14:05] <Jymmm> the EXACT same one is going for $89
[02:14:12] <les_w> I see some problems with that
[02:14:20] <Jymmm> what's that?
[02:14:31] <les_w> I think the press type will be better
[02:14:45] <Jymmm> the tab gun or the v nail?
[02:15:01] <les_w> suspect the v nail will be better
[02:15:04] <les_w> but not sure
[02:15:22] <les_w> i'll vivit amp when I'm up there
[02:15:24] <Jymmm> the vnailer is for the frame, the tab gun is to hold the glass in the frame
[02:15:31] <les_w> ohhhh
[02:15:33] <les_w> ok
[02:15:47] <Jymmm> like glacier tabs, but different
[02:15:51] <les_w> I am used to seeing staples
[02:16:03] <les_w> but I am not in that business
[02:16:07] <Jymmm> let me get a better pic for you...
[02:16:31] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/TAB-TABS-REFILL-PICTURE-FRAME-FRAMING-POINT-DRIVER-GUN_W0QQitemZ8260886378QQcategoryZ37575QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[02:17:21] <Jymmm> that was the tabs themselves, here's the gun
[02:17:22] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/Picture-Framing-Tab-Gun-includes-300-Flexible-Tabs_W0QQitemZ8259498295QQcategoryZ11786QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[02:17:23] <les_w> ok got it
[02:17:44] <Jymmm> that auction wants $50 for what HF seels for $15
[02:17:59] <les_w> ha
[02:18:18] <Jymmm> It was a fluke that I tried HF looking for that tab gun
[02:18:38] <Jymmm> These tabs are what all the framing places use.
[02:19:15] <les_w> I had some drawings I did and some paintings my grandma did framed but I just took it to my uncle
[02:19:28] <les_w> then I hung em on the wall
[02:19:48] <Jymmm> A friends of mine paid $60 for a photo, then $80 to have the photo framed.
[02:19:59] <les_w> they vharged $100 or something per
[02:20:06] <les_w> I forget
[02:20:29] <Jymmm> frames are just four sticks, some glass, and a mat, good profit margin.
[02:20:39] <les_w> hopefully
[02:20:40] <Jymmm> I figure that I could make some create frames
[02:21:02] <Jymmm> not alot of lumber involved, design once, reproduce many
[02:21:13] <Jymmm> easy to store
[02:21:20] <les_w> We have talked about doing a run of frame material with walnut and old gray barn wood
[02:21:38] <les_w> since I have autofeed large shaper machines...no problem
[02:21:58] <les_w> $20 a foot retail
[02:22:18] <les_w> but I AM SO BUSY
[02:22:30] <les_w> damn sticking shift key
[02:22:44] <Jymmm> well no shop space here, so I have to be reserved about storage
[02:23:14] <les_w> lots of old barn wood here too
[02:23:48] <les_w> cut it up into little squares...and inly it right into the walnut
[02:23:56] <Jymmm> lol, there ya go
[02:24:20] <les_w> I could make a lot of it
[02:24:29] <les_w> and the machine is not being used
[02:24:55] <les_w> I might have one of my guys take that on
[02:25:02] <les_w> let him figure it out.
[02:25:03] <Jymmm> damn.... I should move out there and kick your ass to the electric shop and make the wood shop hummmmmmmm
[02:25:21] <les_w> yeah
[02:25:42] <les_w> we have talked about something wood coming out
[02:25:52] <les_w> that I don't need to be involved in
[02:26:02] <les_w> frame material would be ideal
[02:26:21] <Jymmm> Yeah, just have some creative designs and your off
[02:26:30] <les_w> something to keep the spindles turning
[02:26:50] <les_w> they are not turning much, because I have to do other things
[02:26:55] <Jymmm> and none of the guys you employe have a clue?
[02:27:14] <les_w> one i am thinking of could do this
[02:27:30] <les_w> he is a retired owner of a sign shop
[02:27:46] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[02:27:57] <les_w> H likes golf so I have been havibg him work on my little golf course we are making
[02:28:03] <Jymmm> just figure out how to automate the mat cutting and you're set!
[02:28:09] <les_w> easy
[02:28:16] <Jymmm> easy?
[02:28:16] <les_w> so he could do this
[02:28:29] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[02:28:34] <les_w> yeah I think so
[02:28:44] <Jymmm> mat cutting?
[02:28:52] <les_w> but would it beat a mexican with an exacto knofe?
[02:28:55] <les_w> not so sure
[02:29:01] <Jymmm> lol
[02:29:04] <les_w> knife
[02:29:43] <les_w> we were talking the other day about doing a run of those butcher block workbenches
[02:29:58] <les_w> but the frame stock might be even better
[02:30:09] <les_w> running a shaper isn't hard
[02:30:25] <les_w> some sanding
[02:30:30] <les_w> oil finish
[02:30:40] <les_w> and glue up the barnwood inlay
[02:31:07] <les_w> one guy could make a hundred...no hundreds of feet a day
[02:31:40] <Jymmm> There ya go
[02:31:43] <les_w> no cnc carving...just shaper work
[02:32:05] <les_w> the machine is just sitting there..
[02:32:06] <Jymmm> really? how are you going todo the profile?
[02:32:15] <les_w> custom knife
[02:32:21] <Jymmm> ah
[02:32:25] <les_w> no big deal
[02:32:54] <les_w> the shaper can run 4" cutterheads
[02:33:14] <les_w> power feed of course
[02:33:22] <Jymmm> ...of course =)
[02:33:27] <les_w> just stuff the stick in
[02:34:34] <les_w> run it slow...like 12 feet per minute...then little or no sanding
[02:34:44] <les_w> it can run faster
[02:34:57] <Jymmm> Well, sounds like you have a lot of potential to keep the shop busy w/o too much intervention from your part.
[02:35:03] <les_w> but the sanding labor catches up with you
[02:35:30] <les_w> yeah this sounds like something the guy could handle.
[02:35:56] <les_w> materials cost about zero
[02:36:47] <Jymmm> and shot shoot it as it comes out of the machine
[02:37:44] <Jymmm> and just shoot it as it comes out of the machine with paint/clearcoat
[02:37:52] <les_w> possibly light sand with a formable wheel
[02:39:03] <les_w> commercial operations often just use a contoured wick to coat it
[02:39:14] <les_w> looks almost like carpet material
[02:39:32] <Jymmm> well us po folk just use spray cans
[02:39:55] <les_w> the wick just rubs on the finish
[02:40:12] <les_w> the formable wheels are way good
[02:40:20] <les_w> ever seen them?
[02:40:25] <Jymmm> no
[02:40:32] <Jymmm> never heard of em
[02:40:35] <les_w> let me check
[02:40:43] <Jymmm> k, brb
[02:46:02] <Jymmm> found em yet?
[02:48:14] <les_w> it is a flap wheel that takes the shape of a contour just by feeding a metal template into it...saw a demo at iwf
[02:48:24] <les_w> used in machines like this:
[02:48:39] <les_w> http://www.dellevedove.com/
[02:49:09] <Jymmm> wow.... that's kinda cool
[02:49:53] <les_w> so I ask this...why is retail $20/ft for picture frame material?
[02:50:07] <Jymmm> because they can
[02:50:49] <les_w> obviously inexpensive machines like that can spit the stuff out fast
[02:51:04] <Jymmm> how much is a machine like that go for?
[02:51:18] <les_w> who is getting the money?
[02:51:38] <les_w> not more that a car I would guess
[02:51:46] <Jymmm> ah
[02:52:40] <Jymmm> * Jymmm was hoping like 500-700 =)
[02:53:10] <les_w> now chinese can run those just fine
[02:53:22] <les_w> again, who is getting the money
[02:53:39] <les_w> I don't see frame shop owners drivin ferraris
[02:54:12] <Jymmm> becasue it's cheaper to buy from china
[02:55:05] <Jymmm> and most keep their photos on cd, instead of a frame
[02:55:10] <les_w> i'll have to check my uncle's margin on those frames
[02:56:18] <les_w> most of the frames he sells are cast urethane foam
[02:56:25] <les_w> I would say 90%
[02:56:37] <Jymmm> It's just a facet that I have to consider, and if I can get the (cheap) tools for under $50, it's worth a shot.
[02:57:22] <les_w> I guess they make about $50k or something in the frame shop part of their business
[02:57:28] <les_w> something like that
[02:57:38] <les_w> wb skunk
[02:57:45] <Jymmm> plus the actually framing/matting too
[02:57:52] <les_w> yeah
[02:58:08] <les_w> they cut mats
[02:58:13] <les_w> glass too I guess
[02:58:32] <Jymmm> Add on top of that custom designed frames (carved), sky is the limit
[02:59:03] <les_w> the ritchies go for the solid wood barn wood stuff
[02:59:04] <Jymmm> I never expected my friend to pay more for framing than the photo, so it made me think.
[02:59:35] <les_w> seems like a good thing to check out
[02:59:35] <Jymmm> This is the SF area, lot of ppl are into that arts stuff
[02:59:51] <Jymmm> then there's Monterey and Carmel too
[03:00:07] <les_w> you know, when my guy is working on the course he is not turning a profit
[03:00:21] <les_w> and the fairly expensive machine is idle.
[03:00:36] <les_w> well, not expensive.
[03:00:41] <les_w> a few thousand.
[03:00:56] <Jymmm> an idle tool turns no profit
[03:01:03] <les_w> for sure
[03:01:44] <Jymmm> a screwdriver only costs $0.99, but inthe right hands can make $1000's
[03:01:53] <les_w> yup
[03:02:33] <les_w> well let's try this
[03:02:45] <les_w> i'll talk to my guy
[03:03:03] <les_w> we were trying to find something good for him to do
[03:03:46] <les_w> let him figure out how to dice up old barn wood into inly tiles
[03:03:49] <Jymmm> sounds good
[03:03:52] <les_w> inlay
[03:04:22] <les_w> well I'm off
[03:04:25] <les_w> music room
[03:04:30] <Jymmm> G'Night!!!
[03:04:35] <les_w> nite
[03:56:33] <CIA-8> 03cradek * 10emc2/docs/man/man1/.cvsignore: ignore generate file
[11:03:47] <giacus> morning
[11:19:25] <giacus> giacus is now known as giacus_afk
[11:53:06] <giacus_afk> giacus_afk is now known as giacus
[14:41:45] <giacus> bla bla bla
[14:41:49] <giacus> :D
[14:41:54] <giacus> ssshhhhh
[14:42:17] <giacus> don't break the silence
[14:42:49] <giacus> giacus is now known as giacus_afk
[14:50:18] <skunkworks> ;)
[14:52:25] <fenn> renlore: now you just need to join #madscientists
[14:52:57] <fenn> oh nevermind looks like he was already there
[14:53:49] <renlore> haha :)
[15:25:42] <jepler> this looks interesting. Wire an 8255 to the parallel port to get 24 I/Os. http://www.dontronics.com/optus/vicuni/prn8255.html
[15:26:15] <jepler> but one 8255 I/O will require several parallel-port I/Os, so the speed might make it unsuitable for high speed uses
[15:26:17] <alex_joni> jepler: that sounds nice, btw there is a HAL driver for 8255 based stuff
[15:27:17] <alex_joni> it should be fine for non-RT outputs
[15:28:19] <skunkworks> neet
[15:31:27] <skunkworks> we have some large servos off of a cnc mill. Is there a good source for servo drives? (would love a DIY amp)
[15:31:30] <skunkworks> dc
[15:31:35] <jepler> http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/par/pportexp/pportexp.asc
[15:32:30] <skunkworks> nice - going to have to save that
[15:32:39] <skunkworks> dc brushed
[15:46:13] <alex_joni> skunkworks: how big motors?
[15:48:41] <skunkworks> 12 ft-lbs of torque 10 amps 30 amps peak (I think - give me a few and I will get the exact numbers)
[15:52:03] <alex_joni> sounds like .5kW minimum
[15:57:06] <skunkworks> stall - 14.5A peak 59
[15:57:53] <alex_joni> what voltage?
[15:59:44] <skunkworks> hold on -
[15:59:46] <alex_joni> skunkworks: http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/downloads/bridge.pdf
[16:00:02] <skunkworks> stall - 14v 16.2amps 17 ft-lbs
[16:00:10] <alex_joni> a dual H-bridge I used for 10A, 12V motors
[16:00:24] <skunkworks> peak 59v 82amps 80ft-lbs
[16:00:26] <skunkworks> ;)
[16:00:48] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/downloads/bridge.zip
[16:00:49] <skunkworks> sorry - they are bib
[16:00:51] <skunkworks> big
[16:01:11] <alex_joni> mine weren't that small either, and the bridge should handle about 20A
[16:01:18] <alex_joni> or more.. but I never tested it
[16:01:43] <alex_joni> but if I were you I'd get some G340's
[16:01:48] <alex_joni> geckodrive.com
[16:02:14] <skunkworks> did you see - peak 59v 82amps 80ft-lbs?
[16:02:34] <alex_joni> the 82amps might be a problem ;)
[16:03:10] <alex_joni> that's 5kW peak.. no way near homebrewed stuff
[16:03:39] <alex_joni> if you are good with the 1.6kW the gecko can supply, then you're cheap to go
[16:04:01] <alex_joni> if not, then the only option is commercial servo drive (EXPENSIVE)
[16:04:16] <skunkworks> hmm - have to look
[16:04:33] <skunkworks> is the gecko a servo amp step and direction in?
[16:04:53] <alex_joni> yes, and DC motor+encoder on the other side
[16:05:11] <alex_joni> the G340 also has a 1:1, 1:2, 1:5, 1:10 multiplier
[16:05:32] <alex_joni> so 10 steps from the PC, 100 encoder ticks movement (on 1:10)
[16:05:37] <skunkworks> how do you think those would work - (not really having emc2 doing the loop)
[16:05:45] <alex_joni> good
[16:05:56] <alex_joni> I tried one, and it works like a charm
[16:06:00] <alex_joni> it does PID internally
[16:06:15] <alex_joni> saves you the cost of the Motenc or similar
[16:06:28] <alex_joni> and it provides a signal for ferror
[16:07:10] <alex_joni> ideally you would have a DRO board too, and feed the encoders to emc too
[16:07:25] <skunkworks> ok
[16:07:48] <skunkworks> have to do some more research
[16:13:03] <skunkworks> thanks
[16:14:06] <skunkworks> thanks for the circuit - what was the zip file?
[16:16:02] <alex_joni> orcad schematic & layout
[16:16:08] <alex_joni> pcb layout I mean
[16:16:21] <skunkworks> the circuit you sent me - that would work with how jmk was playing with servos out of the parrallel port?
[16:16:34] <skunkworks> pwm signal for forward and reverse?
[16:16:44] <alex_joni> pwm signal for speed
[16:16:50] <alex_joni> and bit for direction
[16:16:51] <skunkworks> right
[16:16:57] <skunkworks> ok
[16:16:59] <alex_joni> in my version
[16:17:36] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/yanor/images.php <- that's what I ran with it
[16:18:00] <skunkworks> cool
[16:18:34] <skunkworks> that is another reason why I think you are a proffessor
[16:18:56] <skunkworks> are you in the picture?
[16:19:04] <alex_joni> the guy in black
[16:19:46] <skunkworks> some reason I thought you where older ;)
[16:20:23] <alex_joni> how much older? :D
[16:20:33] <alex_joni> that was a few years ago .. but not that many..
[16:20:49] <skunkworks> I had a picture in my mind of a 40+ year old.
[16:21:07] <cradek> wow, even I'm not that old
[16:21:20] <skunkworks> so was that a final project for college?
[16:21:55] <cradek> those sharp corners look like they would destroy everything nearby including ankles
[16:21:55] <skunkworks> cradek - some reason I thougt you where in your 30's - I think we had talked about this before
[16:22:21] <alex_joni> skunkworks: going on 26 right now
[16:22:26] <skunkworks> wow
[16:22:30] <alex_joni> cradek: I wrecked a wall actually ;)
[16:22:40] <alex_joni> cradek: with those sharp corners
[16:22:57] <cradek> skunkworks: in 9x I was working on the Apache project and one of the guys in the core team one day gave away the fact that he was 14
[16:23:04] <cradek> it was a big surprise to everyone
[16:23:13] <skunkworks> ;)
[16:23:34] <alex_joni> so what did you say? too old, we need a 12yr old ;)
[16:23:52] <alex_joni> someone who's not intelectually biased
[16:23:58] <cradek> no, some jokes were made and we all moved on
[16:24:13] <skunkworks> If he was good it shouldn't matter.
[16:24:20] <alex_joni> cradek: nowadays you find lots of young people with better skills than veterans
[16:24:51] <cradek> that's one reason I like the online world
[16:25:22] <alex_joni> otoh, I wouldn't trust a 14 yr old designing a 5kW servo amp
[16:25:22] <skunkworks> I am 32
[16:26:05] <cradek> alex_joni: or a web server?
[16:26:18] <skunkworks> - I built a 200 watt per channel audio amp in highschool - using darlington transisters and op amps.
[16:26:45] <skunkworks> had issues with thermal run-away ;)
[16:27:24] <skunkworks> always wanted to use fet's - but they where so expensive at the time.
[16:28:16] <skunkworks> orcad is still around - I remember playing with a demo when I was in highschool
[16:28:21] <skunkworks> ?
[16:31:46] <renlore> renlore is now known as renlore-sleeping
[16:31:59] <renlore-sleeping> renlore-sleeping is now known as renlore-away
[16:36:11] <alex_joni> cradek: software maybe, that's not that experience-related
[16:36:51] <alex_joni> skunkworks: nowadays they are pretty cheap
[16:37:13] <skunkworks> right ;)
[16:39:50] <skunkworks> but that was real rms power - not he peak to peak to peak power - how ever they calculate that ;)
[16:39:57] <skunkworks> they are getting better though.
[16:44:06] <skunkworks> hey ray
[16:44:50] <rayh> How you doing with your machine?
[16:45:55] <skunkworks> good - I added stuff to the oword page.
[16:46:10] <rayh> Fantastic. Thanks.
[16:46:25] <rayh> Are you using stepper_inch?
[16:46:37] <skunkworks> was looking for servo amps. alex gave me some good info
[16:46:38] <skunkworks> yes
[16:46:43] <skunkworks> stepper_inch
[16:47:11] <rayh> I saw some overshoot the other day. Have you been seeing any at high speeds.
[16:47:38] <giacus_afk> http://www.artwooddesigns.com/supplies.html
[16:47:44] <giacus_afk> nice tool :)
[16:48:01] <skunkworks> no - not recently - did quite a while ago. Are you adding headroom in the ini file?
[16:48:46] <jepler> "Can Be Worn With Full Beards"
[16:49:34] <jepler> (one of the respirators on that website)
[16:52:09] <rayh> Yes for both accel and max vel. They didn't seem to help at 160 IPM.
[16:54:03] <skunkworks> hmm - my ini is set to a max of 200 ipm right now. I don't notice any overshoot.
[16:54:49] <skunkworks> let me look at my ini
[16:54:58] <rayh> Ok. I'll keep testing. Thanks
[16:58:24] <skunkworks> I have quit a lot of headroom mostly for accelleration - I have 12 for the ini 20 for the stepgen
[16:58:53] <cradek> I sure wish someone would try to fix the tp
[16:59:36] <skunkworks> 3.33 for velocity and 3.9 for stepgen
[16:59:43] <alex_joni> cradek: ditto, but I think simple_tp should be enhanced ;)
[16:59:48] <alex_joni> that would be so much easier
[16:59:51] <cradek> maybe so
[16:59:56] <alex_joni> s/easier/better/
[17:00:08] <alex_joni> but I think we need to expand the interface to motion
[17:00:16] <alex_joni> to let TP know about joint limits
[17:00:56] <alex_joni> that's pretty hard to do, because it needs to run kins to check that
[17:00:57] <skunkworks> I would test :)
[17:01:01] <cradek> I'll try to help if you want to work on it
[17:01:16] <alex_joni> cradek: I need to pull myself together for that ;)
[17:01:25] <alex_joni> right now I'm not in shape to do it.. too tired
[17:01:52] <cradek> too tired is easier to fix than not smart enough, which is my problem
[17:02:13] <alex_joni> it's not that complicated I think
[17:02:25] <alex_joni> you're overappreciating it
[17:03:08] <skunkworks> rayh: what are your settings for max and stepgen max? for accel and velocity?
[17:03:22] <skunkworks> are you running the latest emc2?
[17:03:27] <cradek> I have enough trouble understanding/planning a one-axis trapezoidal velocity profile because of the quantized time
[17:04:00] <skunkworks> ^ as my wife says "you are talking in code again" ;)
[17:04:17] <alex_joni> cradek: lets sit down sometimes and see if we can pull our heads around it
[17:05:02] <cradek> alex_joni: ok
[17:05:28] <cradek> alex_joni: I've asked jepler for help too, and he says "it's obviously easy" and then doesn't do it for me :-)
[17:06:00] <cradek> I can do the simple calculus to figure out the continuous-time case
[17:06:01] <alex_joni> we need to do something about that
[17:06:16] <alex_joni> we'll get him with something one day, then he'll have to do it
[17:06:22] <alex_joni> I mean jepler
[17:06:29] <cradek> yeah
[17:06:45] <cradek> he's like me - has to get pretty interested in something in order to bother
[17:07:00] <cradek> or, be very offended by it (like ugly screens)
[17:07:33] <alex_joni> lets make a GUI for the TP =))
[17:07:50] <cradek> not offended, more like digusted
[17:08:35] <alex_joni> well, AXIS turned out great ;)
[17:09:09] <cradek> thanks, we started from scratch, not knowing the insides of any of the existing guis, which I think was a good idea
[17:10:04] <cradek> sometimes studying the existing helps, other times it dooms you to making/keeping the same mistakes.
[17:10:57] <cradek> but yeah, if you can help me with simple_tp, that would be great.
[17:11:14] <cradek> I think once it plans the trapezoids perfectly, blending them won't be too hard.
[17:11:29] <jepler> cradek: haven't you fixed that trivial bug yet??
[17:11:34] <cradek> hahaha
[17:12:29] <alex_joni> cradek: what's still wrong?
[17:12:55] <cradek> I can't figure out how to get the decel profile right, and end at the correct position
[17:13:12] <cradek> because of the quantized time
[17:13:26] <cradek> seems like you have to adjust the decel OR the cruise speed if there is one
[17:14:02] <cradek> in order for the last step (dV = -maxaccel) to put you at the right place
[17:14:50] <alex_joni> I see
[17:15:03] <alex_joni> so without doing that it will end a tick earlier or later?
[17:15:40] <cradek> what I need is a function that takes in distance, maxaccel, maxvel, period, initial and final velocity: gives number of accel periods, number of cruise periods, number of decel periods
[17:15:48] <cradek> (any of those numbers may be zero)
[17:16:24] <cradek> I think
[17:16:28] <cradek> * cradek waves his hands
[17:17:04] <cradek> alex_joni: it's worse than being a period off - you are likely not able to land at the specified coordinate at exactly a period boundary
[17:17:08] <alex_joni> that doesn't sound that hard
[17:17:18] <cradek> I know, that's what I thought when I started too
[17:18:33] <alex_joni> I'd calculate the number to reach max_speed (in periods)
[17:18:53] <alex_joni> the number of periods to reach final_speed
[17:19:28] <alex_joni> hrmm.. not that trivial as it would seem
[17:19:34] <jepler> I think my contention was that you should not quantize
[17:19:36] <cradek> yes, you often can't do those in the given distance
[17:20:08] <alex_joni> jepler: but you need the exact destination on a period
[17:20:11] <alex_joni> I think..
[17:20:37] <jepler> at the end you get a piecewise function x(t) which you can call with the 't' values that correspond to periods
[17:20:41] <cradek> your output is "how far do I move this period" and your answer has to be "same as last period, +- < A"
[17:21:44] <cradek> brb
[17:22:19] <jepler> If the ending velocity is 0, tack on an extra cycle that outputs the final commanded position
[17:22:50] <jepler> if it is not 0, use the slightly wrong final position as the start of the next segment .. it'll be wrong by some small amount, in the vicinity of final_velocity / period
[17:22:51] <alex_joni> jepler: how do you mean that?
[17:22:54] <rayh> Sorry skunkworks I was on another machine. Let me look.
[17:23:02] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok, got it
[17:23:17] <alex_joni> but that easily gets messy when you start to do blending
[17:23:25] <jepler> maybe so
[17:23:26] <alex_joni> and if the next move is not of the same type
[17:23:34] <alex_joni> linear vs. circular
[17:24:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes looking at cradek's sources
[17:25:51] <rayh> In traj I've got DEFAULT_VELOCITY = 0.0167
[17:25:52] <rayh> MAX_VELOCITY = 3.0
[17:25:52] <rayh> DEFAULT_ACCELERATION = 2.0
[17:25:52] <rayh> MAX_ACCELERATION = 3.0
[17:26:37] <rayh> and in each axis I've got MAX_VELOCITY = 2.5
[17:26:37] <rayh> MAX_ACCELERATION = 3.0
[17:26:38] <rayh> STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 3.2
[17:26:38] <rayh> STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 7.0
[17:27:16] <alex_joni> uh oh
[17:27:28] <alex_joni> try putting the same max_vel all over
[17:27:32] <cradek> rayh: you are getting position overshoot?
[17:27:41] <rayh> Yep
[17:28:16] <cradek> it makes sense to have axis maxvel < traj maxvel
[17:28:36] <rayh> Not if you are using a 4th defined in degrees.
[17:28:58] <rayh> That was the purpose of individual axis max's
[17:29:08] <cradek> rayh: you misread what I said
[17:29:16] <cradek> rayh: "it makes sense"
[17:29:24] <rayh> Oh that.
[17:29:26] <cradek> even with all axis in the same units
[17:29:46] <cradek> it still makes sense because TRAJ is tooltip vel
[17:30:25] <rayh> Traj has to be 40-60 for max vel if a fourth is defined in degrees.
[17:30:43] <alex_joni> cradek: I see you have some duplicated code in TpRunCycle()
[17:30:43] <cradek> yeah, that makes the issue much worse
[17:30:54] <alex_joni> // max change in velocity per cycle allowed by accel constraint
[17:30:54] <alex_joni> max_dv = tc->accel * tc->cycle_time;
[17:30:54] <alex_joni> // displacement under which we consider the motion done
[17:30:54] <alex_joni> tiny_dp = max_dv * tc->cycle_time * 0.001;
[17:31:00] <rayh> Then the individual max vel reduced for linear
[17:31:25] <cradek> alex_joni: tiny_dp was stolen from motion.c
[17:31:37] <alex_joni> yes, but it's twice in there
[17:31:58] <rayh> Is what we are saying is "that we can not use different units?"
[17:32:12] <cradek> well no
[17:32:30] <cradek> but when you have different units on different axes, traj maxvel has no useful meaning
[17:32:34] <alex_joni> rayh: no, what we are saying is "we can use it, but it always was defined awkwardly, so you might need some strange values for that"
[17:33:20] <cradek> rayh: is there a particular case (geometrically) that gives you the overshoot?
[17:33:29] <alex_joni> cradek: I see, it needs to get recalculated (if there's a new tc) !?
[17:34:08] <rayh> I get the overshoot on all motions in the same vector
[17:34:33] <rayh> I get them on circles at the quadrant.
[17:34:49] <rayh> when gcode is 1/4 arcs
[17:35:04] <alex_joni> cradek: although tc->accel & tc->cycle_time don't change..
[17:35:16] <cradek> rayh: are you talking about position, vel or accel overshoot?
[17:35:45] <rayh> position overshoot then return then start the new block
[17:36:46] <rayh> Do you think this is a motmod problem or a stepper problem?
[17:36:57] <rayh> I was thinking I'd try freqmod next
[17:37:03] <cradek> I'm sorry but I still don't understand what you're describing
[17:37:33] <rayh> First case is a rapid to a feed in the same axis.
[17:37:43] <cradek> ok so they're colinear
[17:37:49] <cradek> how do you see position overshoot?
[17:37:51] <rayh> rapid overshoots returns then starts the feed
[17:38:00] <cradek> the axis reverses?
[17:38:24] <rayh> about a 1/4 inch overtravel, then reverse then starts the next move
[17:38:33] <cradek> oh holy crap
[17:38:58] <cradek> so you have g0x1 g1x2, you get a motion to 1.25, then back to 1, then to 2?
[17:38:58] <skunkworks> the only time i saw that was when all the axises used the max accel from the traj secion. Cradek had fixed that.
[17:39:00] <rayh> I can see it in backplot
[17:40:38] <jepler> AXIS's backplot uses commanded position
[17:41:05] <rayh> Right and the tickle backplot uses actual position.
[17:41:51] <cradek> it would be nice to know if this mess is in commanded
[17:42:20] <alex_joni> cradek: if it's stepper_inch, then I don't see why it wouldn't be
[17:42:41] <rayh> We could watch actual and commanded in halscope.
[17:42:50] <jepler> that sounds like a good idea
[17:43:18] <cradek> yeah
[17:43:21] <rayh> or following error ie the difference between
[17:43:28] <cradek> I think that will tell us if it's tp or stepgen
[17:43:51] <alex_joni> I thik it's both, tp telling crap, and stepgen rattling along at it's max
[17:43:59] <alex_joni> rayh: what are your ferror's ?
[17:44:07] <cradek> yeah I'm afraid we're going to find that it's tp.
[17:44:25] <rayh> no change from dist
[17:44:43] <ValarQ> alex_joni: did you mention crap?
[17:44:45] <alex_joni> rayh: try increasing the maxes for stepgen, and see if it changes
[17:44:49] <rayh> If it were tp, then the servo stuff would show crap also.
[17:44:54] <alex_joni> ValarQ: you may lurk again
[17:44:59] <ValarQ> :)
[17:45:14] <alex_joni> ValarQ: kidding ;) there is enough crap for everybody
[17:45:26] <alex_joni> rayh: PID might swallow something like this
[17:45:26] <ValarQ> indeed there are
[17:45:50] <alex_joni> rayh: filter it out I mean
[17:45:58] <rayh> Right.
[17:46:05] <cradek> I'm crying on the inside
[17:46:11] <alex_joni> cradek: why?
[17:46:17] <cradek> tp
[17:46:25] <alex_joni> wanna talk about it?
[17:46:32] <Jymmm> lol @ alex_joni
[17:46:35] <cradek> no, it's lunchtime
[17:46:45] <rayh> Is emc2's tp significantly different from emc or bdi?
[17:46:46] <alex_joni> Jymmm: not that way ;) I mean seriously..
[17:46:55] <cradek> rayh: no
[17:46:58] <alex_joni> rayh: no, it's the same crap
[17:47:10] <alex_joni> ok, maybe crap is a bit harsh
[17:47:18] <cradek> rayh: I fixed the accel problems with different maxaccels in different axes, that's it
[17:47:27] <alex_joni> but it's not 100% ok
[17:47:33] <rayh> Then I should see the same sorts of thing there.
[17:47:42] <alex_joni> there is one exception
[17:47:53] <alex_joni> stepgen won't go faster then it thinks it should
[17:48:01] <cradek> rayh: pid will absorb in emc1 even for steppers
[17:48:01] <alex_joni> even if TP commands it to
[17:48:56] <rayh> Let me work a bit on this. I can compare with univstep.
[17:49:04] <skunkworks> what kinda computer is this on and what is your period?
[17:49:28] <cradek> rayh: I would think commanded position will look the same no matter what the driver
[17:49:45] <rayh> athalon 64 with base_thread of something like 10
[17:50:01] <skunkworks> and what is your base period
[17:50:08] <skunkworks> .00001?
[17:50:26] <alex_joni> he just said
[17:50:50] <skunkworks> must be nice ;) - wow.
[17:51:03] <rayh> BASE_PERIOD = 0.000010
[17:51:03] <rayh> SERVO_PERIOD = 0.001000
[17:51:03] <rayh> TRAJ_PERIOD = 0.010000
[17:51:45] <skunkworks> could not quit get there. could you send me your stepper ini - I could play with it here.
[17:52:11] <rayh> skunkworks: sure. dcc or your eaddy?
[17:52:22] <skunkworks> samcoinc@gmail.com
[17:53:32] <rayh> headed your way
[17:53:57] <skunkworks> got it
[17:55:17] <alex_joni> skunkworks: it's best not to put email addys in here.. remember we are beeing logged ;)
[17:55:44] <jepler> it's best not to live in fear of your e-mail address getting out
[17:55:46] <jepler> jepler@unpythonic.net
[17:56:04] <alex_joni> jepler: if you have a good spam killer, sure
[17:56:12] <alex_joni> but most don't
[17:56:14] <jepler> alex_joni: who doesn't?
[17:56:28] <alex_joni> most I know.. :(
[17:56:40] <Jymmm> jepler it's not a matter of getting out, it's a matter of getting harvested.
[17:56:59] <alex_joni> jepler: and a matter of beeing sold ;)
[17:57:15] <alex_joni> I mean the addy on some obscure lists ;)
[17:59:46] <skunkworks> that is my junk email - use it when I don't care. thanks though
[17:59:56] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh-testing
[18:00:51] <skunkworks> ray - so with that ini - if you do a g0x5 it will go to something like 5.25 then back to 5?
[18:01:14] <alex_joni> I think it only happens when G0X5 G1X6 (e.g. blending 2 moves)
[18:01:34] <skunkworks> (I changed the base period to .00002 for my computer)
[18:02:38] <alex_joni> alex_joni has changed the topic to: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum -
[18:02:38] <alex_joni> Support and development of a linux based CNC control. |
[18:02:38] <alex_joni> Home:www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday
[18:02:38] <alex_joni> 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map:
[18:02:42] <alex_joni> http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller
[18:02:44] <alex_joni> aargh
[18:03:44] <alex_joni> alex_joni has changed the topic to: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home: linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings Sundays 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller"
[18:08:43] <skunkworks> boy - not seeing that at all. still playing though
[18:12:00] <fenn> i've given quite a bit of thought to how to do arbitrary kinematics in realtime..
[18:12:40] <fenn> there is quite a lot more to worry about than appears at first glance
[18:13:35] <fenn> i think emc2 should focus on getting the tp to work for cartesian machines, as it will take a long time before kinematics will work well
[18:14:36] <fenn> the most elegant and simple way to do it would render most of the current code base obsolete
[18:15:22] <fenn> but i'm not sure that it will work - that is, if i can always use an N by M transformation matrix to get from cartesian to joint space
[18:17:14] <fenn> but there are a lot more complications like redundant axes and self-collision and arbitrary work envelopes and optimization - you dont have to worry about any of this with cartesian machines
[18:18:11] <skunkworks> ray: - could you send be the gcode that is doing it?
[18:19:03] <fenn> i think till started working on his redundant axis plotter to try to break down the multiple new challenges a hexapod architecture presents
[18:19:13] <fenn> into multiple smaller problems
[18:20:44] <alex_joni> fenn: I agree, TP for cart. for now
[18:25:08] <fenn> http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/camera/DCP_0602.JPG <- one month and 3 days later, the stuff that dreams are made of arrives
[18:25:25] <les_w> hey fenn, alex
[18:25:52] <fenn> i shoulda gotten some trim pots
[18:26:04] <skunkworks> I am not seeing it on backplot - or the corrdinates
[18:29:58] <rayh-testing> skunkworks: I'm using cds.ngc
[18:30:35] <rayh-testing> I see some of the overshoot and odd blending even with univstep.
[18:30:40] <fenn> les have you considered using mems-type techniques for your thingybob?
[18:31:19] <les_w> yeah
[18:31:47] <les_w> hey, i got a patent issued today. It's the encoder.
[18:31:55] <fenn> what encoder?
[18:32:02] <les_w> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,974,949.WKU.&OS=PN/6,974,949&RS=PN/6,974,949
[18:32:16] <fenn> oh, gratz btw
[18:32:22] <les_w> made sure the client's name was first
[18:32:35] <les_w> I tell themwe will do that
[18:32:41] <les_w> he gets a raise
[18:32:46] <skunkworks> cds.ngc?
[18:33:15] <fenn> ah yes i saw a similar design based on RF
[18:33:32] <les_w> I pulled some optical tricks
[18:33:45] <alex_joni> hi les
[18:33:48] <les_w> all made with emc btw
[18:33:51] <alex_joni> short question
[18:33:53] <les_w> hi alex
[18:33:57] <les_w> sure
[18:34:31] <alex_joni> if you have accel and decel periods (in time), how do you calc the distance traveled
[18:34:33] <fenn> it amazes me that anything at all is patentable.. it all seems so obvious once you explain how it works
[18:34:44] <les_w> yeah
[18:34:45] <les_w> hmm
[18:34:53] <alex_joni> you have the initial vel
[18:34:58] <fenn> that's probably why there are so many stupid patents out there
[18:35:03] <fenn> they cant tell the difference
[18:35:29] <les_w> double integral of accel + initial velocity
[18:35:31] <skunkworks> hey ray - have you tried a period of .00004 - do you get the same thing>
[18:35:36] <rayh-testing> cds.ngc is a gcode file shipped with the distro.
[18:35:44] <skunkworks> dah
[18:35:45] <skunkworks> sorry
[18:35:50] <les_w> oops no
[18:36:08] <fenn> les can your encoder do >360 degrees?
[18:36:08] <alex_joni> les_w: integral (initial_vel + integral (accel))
[18:36:14] <fenn> (smoothly)
[18:36:15] <les_w> integral of initial velocity+integral accel
[18:36:30] <les_w> oh hahaha
[18:36:34] <alex_joni> yeah, I can see that, but how do you put that into a c-formula?
[18:36:37] <les_w> crossed in the wires
[18:37:05] <les_w> integration is just adding
[18:37:07] <alex_joni> les_w: doing discrete math
[18:37:18] <les_w> yeah
[18:37:43] <alex_joni> (initial_vel + accel * time) * time ?
[18:37:50] <les_w> add values multiplied by time increment
[18:38:08] <les_w> yeah that looks right
[18:38:34] <les_w> and a derivative is just a subtraction divided by time increment
[18:38:56] <fenn> * fenn curses the uspto website
[18:39:03] <les_w> me too
[18:39:22] <fenn> so i guess i cant see any pictures
[18:39:30] <les_w> let me see
[18:40:02] <skunkworks> ray: could you send a screen shot of your back plot?
[18:40:53] <les_w> when I click images I see white cows in a snow storm fenn
[18:41:05] <les_w> perhaps because it just issued
[18:41:39] <les_w> many are basically toolpaths for emc
[18:41:41] <rayh-testing> skunkworks: How much of an image do you want to see. The whole cds thing?
[18:42:03] <skunkworks> just so I can see what you are seeing. As far as over-shoots
[18:42:08] <fenn> les_w: when i click images i get a "click here to download plugin" image :) either that or it locks up the browser
[18:42:32] <skunkworks> (you said you could see it on the backplot.
[18:42:34] <skunkworks> )
[18:43:03] <skunkworks> I am running it right now.
[18:43:08] <skunkworks> with your ini files
[18:43:49] <fenn> les so, the "optical cam" has a different exit angle once you go over the hump.. how do you keep the LED pointing at the sensor and not have an abrupt transition?
[18:43:52] <rayh-testing> Okay. The problem is that the overshoot and the next line cover each other.
[18:45:15] <skunkworks> if you did a g0x1 > y1 would it over shoot past the 1 on the x and then back?
[18:45:32] <skunkworks> then go the y direction?
[18:45:48] <rayh-testing> Not as a regular thing. Let me see if I can capture an overshoot. Will be a few minutes.
[18:46:03] <skunkworks> ok - thanks
[18:47:06] <fenn> les_w: here's an easier question.. how thick is the optical member?
[18:53:28] <les_w> sorry was out a second
[18:53:33] <les_w> it varies
[18:53:47] <les_w> the trick I pulled is temperature compensation
[18:54:21] <les_w> leds, photodiodes, and plastic all change their optical properties a bunch with temperature
[18:54:31] <les_w> like 2:1
[18:54:59] <les_w> I devised a differential system where all that cancels
[18:55:09] <les_w> even the plastic properties
[18:55:28] <les_w> All optical cam profiles are machined on emc!
[18:56:58] <les_w> cost for the device is under $3.
[18:57:12] <les_w> We sure don't sell em for that though.
[18:57:21] <fenn> bah it was supposed to be $1
[18:57:21] <les_w> It's a throttle position sensor.
[18:57:29] <fenn> oh i thought this was the battery sensor
[18:57:47] <les_w> no that's another one...
[18:58:09] <les_w> I used the lm2900 series op amp
[18:58:20] <les_w> under hood temp qualified
[18:58:23] <les_w> bipolar
[18:58:38] <les_w> and a quad cost $.11!!!!
[18:58:51] <fenn> LM2900 is discontinued?
[18:58:54] <les_w> 3 cents per op amp
[18:59:01] <alex_joni> that's expensive
[18:59:15] <les_w> no not at all...there is a fistfull of them in every car
[18:59:34] <fenn> oh i bet it's because of ROHS crap
[19:00:09] <les_w> newer rail to rail ones are easier to design with
[19:00:16] <les_w> but they cost much more
[19:00:42] <les_w> especially if they are -40-125c
[19:03:02] <les_w> I did have a tough time sourcing photodiodes
[19:03:27] <les_w> unlike phototransistors they tend to be expensive.
[19:03:59] <les_w> I insisted in using pin pd because this is analog
[19:04:08] <les_w> PT are all over the place
[19:06:35] <les_w> I note law dogs wrote up phototransistor though
[19:06:41] <les_w> just to cover the bases
[19:15:30] <fenn> i thought op amps worked on voltage, not current
[19:16:25] <fenn> les_w: could you explain why PD vs PT?
[19:22:50] <sam__> ray: I am running this program - seeing if it reverses - nothing yet
[19:22:52] <sam__> g0x1
[19:22:52] <sam__> g1x2f10
[19:22:52] <sam__> g0y1
[19:22:52] <sam__> g1x0
[19:22:52] <sam__> g0y0
[19:22:54] <sam__> M30
[19:27:45] <les_w> Photodiodes have much more predictable output/light intensity specs
[19:28:06] <les_w> phototransistors are better for on/off stuff
[19:28:56] <fenn> more predictable wrt temperature changes?
[19:29:40] <fenn> * fenn is an information sink
[19:32:34] <Jymmm> fenn <--- infowhore! =)
[19:32:44] <rayh-testing> What speed is your g0?
[19:32:50] <fenn> hey now them's fightin words
[19:33:04] <Jymmm> fenn: The truth hurts, don't it =)
[19:33:30] <fenn> nah i left a channel with tons of useful info the other day on principle
[19:33:41] <rayh-testing> I thought a whore was someone who had it and was selling it.
[19:34:01] <fenn> no that's a pimp
[19:34:24] <fenn> les is an infopimp
[19:34:26] <rayh-testing> No that's a broker.
[19:34:59] <Jymmm> I'm a RamWhore... I'll take all the ram I can get.
[19:35:11] <Jymmm> That's the context I say it in.
[19:36:04] <sam__> ray - it is your ini file - 180
[19:49:33] <rayh-testing> Okay. I got a shot of about .100 overshoot in z. I'll edit and send.
[19:49:51] <cradek> I'd like to see it too
[19:50:10] <skunkworks> how did you do it and can you reproduce it? (short snippit of code?)
[19:50:17] <alex_joni> hi chris
[19:50:20] <cradek> hi
[19:50:23] <alex_joni> lunch ok?
[19:50:29] <cradek> yep
[19:50:39] <alex_joni> read what I wrote you?
[19:50:40] <cradek> curried vegetables with rice
[19:50:45] <alex_joni> nice
[19:50:48] <cradek> yes, I think you're on the right track
[19:51:58] <alex_joni> should we try it?
[19:53:29] <cradek> with sim and some ddts it's easy to get a nice halscope plot of position, velocity, accel
[19:54:55] <alex_joni> ok, I'll give it a shot in an hour or so (finishing a movie first ;)
[19:55:12] <cradek> I don't see where distance comes into this
[19:55:24] <cradek> I think you're missing a few pieces of the puzzle still :-)
[19:55:27] <alex_joni> in the time check
[19:55:47] <cradek> step 5?
[19:55:50] <rayh-testing> skunkworks: image on the way.
[19:55:52] <alex_joni> yes
[19:56:08] <alex_joni> and 8
[19:56:12] <alex_joni> but implicitely
[19:56:55] <cradek> ok I'm not quite seeing it
[19:57:00] <cradek> but I believe you
[19:57:06] <alex_joni> I guess I'm not either ;)
[19:57:16] <rayh-testing> You guys seeing overshoot with sim?
[19:57:42] <alex_joni> rayh-testing: we were talking about TP (not the current TP)
[19:57:53] <rayh-testing> Oh okay.
[19:58:16] <cradek> rayh-testing: our guts tell us the current TP is broken so we're back to working on the new one
[19:58:54] <rayh-testing> I wish you'd been with paul, matt, and I when we spent a day with Fred talking about this issue.
[19:59:25] <rayh-testing> His impression is that there is a blending problem.
[19:59:32] <cradek> there certainly is
[19:59:39] <alex_joni> that's everybody's impression
[19:59:43] <skunkworks> you where single blocking this? so it ran to 2.1 - and over shot? went back to 2.1?
[19:59:52] <rayh-testing> So why not work on blending rather than a new tp?
[20:00:14] <cradek> because the whole structure is bad, and I've cleaned it up on a branch
[20:00:15] <rayh-testing> Yep.
[20:00:29] <rayh-testing> But your stuff only single blocks
[20:00:47] <alex_joni> and because a redesign usually is better then patching something
[20:00:48] <rayh-testing> There is no way that exact stop will make a decent part finish\
[20:01:06] <alex_joni> rayh-testing: we're figuring out how to do proper blending too
[20:01:09] <rayh-testing> and i thought jmk said end of month.
[20:01:15] <cradek> rayh-testing: getting exact stop 100% right before adding blending is necessary
[20:01:24] <alex_joni> might not be emc-2.0.0
[20:01:30] <alex_joni> that's irrelevant
[20:01:30] <rayh-testing> Whatever.
[20:01:32] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:01:46] <alex_joni> but it would be good if we ever figure it out
[20:01:54] <rayh-testing> I guess it's a matter of priority. Fix a bug or ...
[20:01:56] <alex_joni> machines tend to only get faster lately
[20:02:14] <alex_joni> rayh-testing: the bug is there for the last 5 years?
[20:02:21] <rayh-testing> No it is not.
[20:02:30] <alex_joni> it's not_
[20:02:32] <alex_joni> ?
[20:02:37] <rayh-testing> We never had this kind of overshoot with the emc
[20:02:44] <rayh-testing> I can say that for a fact.
[20:02:51] <alex_joni> yes, because PID ate it away
[20:03:00] <alex_joni> but the output from TP was just as bad
[20:03:04] <rayh-testing> BS It's ;there in univstep
[20:03:11] <rayh-testing> and there is pid
[20:03:26] <rayh-testing> we might want to take this discussion elsewhere.
[20:03:29] <cradek> rayh-testing: the code is the same
[20:03:57] <rayh-testing> What code?
[20:04:00] <alex_joni> TP
[20:04:27] <rayh-testing> You said five years, tp hasn't changed in that long?
[20:04:37] <alex_joni> I was asking.. not saying
[20:04:38] <rayh-testing> That's crap cause paul changed it as did others.
[20:04:46] <alex_joni> paul didn't change it
[20:04:55] <alex_joni> he took parts out of it which he didn't understand
[20:05:09] <alex_joni> which made it better in some cases, and worse in other cases
[20:05:22] <rayh-testing> That does not constitute a change?
[20:05:37] <alex_joni> no, that's just fiddling with it.. not fixing it
[20:05:55] <rayh-testing> It's a change whether we want to admit it or not.
[20:06:15] <alex_joni> fixing presumes understanding it first, and it seems no-one does (I'm not sure about FredP, never got the chance to talk to him about this.. :(
[20:06:33] <rayh-testing> This arg is crap. The TP code has been modified
[20:07:03] <rayh-testing> Like it or not it has and at the same time that these modifications were made it changed behavior.
[20:07:40] <alex_joni> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/emc/emc/src/emcmot/tp.c?rev=1.20&view=log
[20:08:00] <alex_joni> yes, I agree that it changed, and that functionallity has changed
[20:08:34] <alex_joni> but I don't see how that helps, I don't think it's better than it was before
[20:09:07] <alex_joni> but this is all talk without proof
[20:09:25] <fenn> you guys dont have to be so melodramatic, btw
[20:09:33] <alex_joni> fenn: heh
[20:10:10] <cradek> rayh-testing: it's possible you could check out old versions of the kinematics directory from cvs, in order to compare the operation of earlier code
[20:10:27] <cradek> rayh-testing: they may need a small bit of tweaking to build
[20:15:30] <skunkworks> ray - can you reproduce it?
[20:15:40] <skunkworks> if you single step though again will it do it?
[20:16:12] <alex_joni> skunkworks: single step won't do it
[20:16:13] <cradek> does a one line program (or mdi) overshoot and reverse?
[20:16:19] <alex_joni> it's a blending problem
[20:16:39] <alex_joni> and it might be related to SWP's re-enabling the code paul took out of the TP
[20:17:22] <alex_joni> but again.. it's only guessing, because I have nfc what's going on in there..
[20:18:57] <skunkworks> <skunkworks> you where single blocking this? so it ran to 2.1 - and over shot? went back to 2.1?
[20:18:58] <skunkworks> <rayh-testing> So why not work on blending rather than a new tp?
[20:18:58] <skunkworks> <cradek> because the whole structure is bad, and I've cleaned it up on a branch
[20:18:58] <skunkworks> <rayh-testing> Yep.
[20:19:27] <skunkworks> I assumed the yep was for me
[20:19:30] <cradek> skunkworks: what is single blocking?
[20:20:28] <cradek> skunkworks: I got lost in your conversation with ray - did you reproduce this overshoot too?
[20:20:50] <les_w> Paul took out something Will put in in 2000 to correct a problem of sometimes not honoring max velocity and accel
[20:21:08] <skunkworks> cradek - no - not yet
[20:21:26] <les_w> will's fix seemed to force honoring the numbers...but broke the TP
[20:21:42] <cradek> les_w: it's broken either way
[20:21:46] <les_w> correct
[20:22:04] <cradek> les_w: I've studied it a lot (at every change) and I've never seen a proper parabola come out of it so far
[20:22:24] <skunkworks> single blocking is running one line at a time.
[20:22:32] <cradek> skunkworks: ok, I understand
[20:22:42] <les_w> about the only thing it does right is follow a path
[20:22:46] <cradek> skunkworks: but single stepping does NOT turn off blending
[20:23:09] <cradek> skunkworks: we'd have to use MDI or g6x to turn it off
[20:23:28] <cradek> les_w: thank goodness that part isn't broken
[20:24:04] <cradek> les_w: will alex and I finally get you on emc2 if we fix it?
[20:24:16] <les_w> so by removing the 2000 fix there is some kind of bad overshoot or undershoot in reversals?
[20:24:35] <cradek> removing the 2000 fix causes accel constraints to be violated by 2x
[20:24:40] <cradek> (at reversals)
[20:24:53] <skunkworks> I was getting overshoot - unrelated to blending before. (pretty much as ray describes it) but have not seen it in a long time
[20:24:55] <les_w> any path errors noted?
[20:25:10] <cradek> skunkworks: I think that was a stepgen bug long since fixed
[20:25:23] <cradek> les_w: don't think so
[20:25:53] <skunkworks> - If I remeber right it really happend when you had the max accelleration in the traj section higher than any one of the axies max accelleration..
[20:26:06] <les_w> if the accel is violated up to two times the ini number, then divide the ini number by two internally?
[20:26:24] <cradek> we were getting (accel at -A in 0,0,-1 direction) + (accel at A in 0,0,1) = accel at 2A in 0,0,1
[20:26:31] <les_w> Is that what we are talking about? or are there othe rproblems
[20:27:22] <cradek> les_w: nobody understood the code that paul took out, and taking it out changed it from "wrong" to "differently wrong" so it's unclear how to fix it
[20:28:14] <cradek> les_w: another hack fix would be to block blending for things that are reversals or nearly reversals
[20:28:23] <rayh-testing> At the time that Paul did that, he was in some sort of funk with WillS and refused to ask what the code did.
[20:28:49] <les_w> question: other than accel violations what othe bad things have been noted after the #ifdef?
[20:28:50] <cradek> I'm sick and tired of funks
[20:28:54] <rayh-testing> rayh-testing is now known as rayh
[20:29:14] <alex_joni> rayh: it's not like we don't want to fix it..
[20:29:28] <rayh> I know that.
[20:29:33] <cradek> les_w: I noticed colinear lines were still misblended (I could hear the vel spike)
[20:29:39] <alex_joni> but after all that time I feel the effort to try to understand & fix it might be bigger than just writing it again
[20:29:47] <rayh> My concern is for the path to fix that we are taking.
[20:30:10] <les_w> I don't know if he really wants me to say this, but Paul claims to have a totally fixed tp.
[20:30:14] <alex_joni> rayh: cradek & I are trying it out in a branch, is that bad?
[20:30:36] <rayh> You are certainly free to do as you choose.
[20:30:39] <alex_joni> well so far only cradek ;) I want to jump in and see if we together can get it shiny :)
[20:30:45] <cradek> les_w: too bad he's not cooperating with us anymore.
[20:30:53] <les_w> well yeah
[20:31:22] <rayh> Well I've heard a lot of stuff go by about new "shiny" trajectory planners.
[20:31:37] <alex_joni> rayh: agreed, I don't trust them till I see them
[20:31:44] <rayh> Seems like most everyone has a better way
[20:31:50] <cradek> well I for one put my money where my mouth is
[20:31:54] <les_w> I have not seen pauls work
[20:32:26] <alex_joni> same goes for threading, since you just mentioned "shiny"
[20:32:26] <skunkworks> ray - did you try upping your period - .00004 would be more than fast enough for your feeds.(just to see if that is part of the problem)
[20:32:45] <alex_joni> skunkworks: don't think that will do any difference
[20:32:58] <alex_joni> rayh: how about that plot of commanded vs. actual ?
[20:33:35] <rayh> Didn't know how to do it.
[20:33:53] <alex_joni> ok, I must say I'm just about on the level with you :D
[20:34:04] <alex_joni> didn't play with halscope much either
[20:34:06] <skunkworks> I would like to know too - using halscope?
[20:34:13] <skunkworks> ;)
[20:34:16] <rayh> I believe that is the definition of following error.
[20:34:22] <les_w> well, so far I hear an accel violation only. I can type in half the number I really want in the .ini, or throw in a /2 somewhere...
[20:34:23] <alex_joni> cradek knows ;)
[20:35:22] <fenn> les i believe the problem is it overshoots the endpoint
[20:36:13] <les_w> in a reversal only?
[20:37:24] <rayh> les_w: It only seems to happen in some situations.
[20:37:34] <rayh> other times it issues the correct stuff.
[20:38:34] <les_w> ok. So the problem has not been characterized fully yet I guess
[20:38:59] <les_w> Is it know to be tp and not some other thing like step generating?
[20:39:16] <skunkworks> ray - so you don't think you can make a short program that will reproduce it consistantly?
[20:39:34] <alex_joni> les_w: not fully decided, but I incline TP
[20:39:36] <cradek> les_w: that's why we want someone to plot commanded vs actual position
[20:39:53] <les_w> I see
[20:40:07] <rayh> skunkworks: This cold has me pretty heavy headed but let me try.
[20:40:14] <cradek> rayh: do you think I can run your ini without hardware connected?
[20:40:41] <rayh> Sure you can. It's a stepper_inch slightly modified.
[20:40:56] <rayh> Want me to send the file.
[20:41:02] <cradek> yes
[20:42:11] <skunkworks> cradek - I am running it here no problem
[20:42:21] <cradek> skunkworks: ray's ini??
[20:42:25] <skunkworks> right
[20:42:35] <cradek> are your emc versions different?
[20:42:48] <skunkworks> mine is the latest
[20:42:54] <cradek> head or testing?
[20:42:58] <skunkworks> ubuntu
[20:43:05] <alex_joni> ok, so testing
[20:43:07] <cradek> ok that's the latest testing
[20:43:28] <cradek> which I think is the same as head except for some man page stuff
[20:47:13] <cradek> yes they are the same except for mini, man page stuff, a few makefile fixes
[20:47:22] <alex_joni> rayh: I don't see anything..
[20:48:44] <les_w> I'm almost positive I saw hard-coded exact stop for any segment angles over 90 derees.
[20:48:57] <rayh> My net is down, Sneakernet takes a while.
[20:49:15] <alex_joni> you were using tkemc?
[20:49:31] <rayh> No mini. It has a bit easier to use plotter.
[20:49:39] <cradek> got it here now
[20:49:47] <les_w> Normally it should of course never rech a reversal point in blending mode, unless pid is mistuned to be underdamped.
[20:49:52] <les_w> reach
[20:50:02] <alex_joni> cradek: replicated it?
[20:50:07] <cradek> no, got the ini in my email
[20:50:18] <alex_joni> oh ;)
[20:50:21] <cradek> I'm not sure I can run it here
[20:50:46] <rayh> This is athalon64. You may need to increase the base_period a bit.
[20:51:04] <cradek> my available machine is 266 MHz
[20:51:28] <rayh> I'm going to try to write a short program that will show the overshoot issues.
[20:51:34] <rayh> brb
[20:51:36] <cradek> great
[20:52:06] <skunkworks> ray - did you download the 64 ubuntu? or are you running the 32 bit verions?
[20:52:14] <skunkworks> are you running ubuntu?
[20:52:43] <alex_joni> hrmm.. still can't see it..
[20:52:48] <alex_joni> cradek: can you mail me the ini too?
[20:53:11] <cradek> it was also sent to you
[20:53:15] <alex_joni> oh wait, ray already did ;)
[20:53:30] <cradek> I sent it again just in case
[20:53:40] <cradek> oops, now you'll have two
[20:55:44] <cradek> ouch, I forgot to change period
[20:55:58] <skunkworks> .00001 runs on mine - barely
[20:57:12] <alex_joni> on mine it's just fine
[20:58:05] <les_w> Was thinking...If you clamp accel too late in the tp process...it will not calculate a slower average speed to allow path compliance
[20:58:21] <les_w> so a clamped decel will overshoot
[20:58:25] <les_w> if
[20:58:30] <alex_joni> les_w: right
[20:58:40] <les_w> there is another clamp somewhere else
[20:59:45] <alex_joni> rayh: now I just need some idea of what you were seeing, I can't see anything..
[21:00:01] <alex_joni> were you using feed_override?
[21:01:33] <cradek> I immediately get joint 2 following error
[21:01:44] <cradek> with ray's ini
[21:01:46] <alex_joni> probably because of missed RT deadlines
[21:01:55] <cradek> I changed it to 50ns
[21:01:59] <alex_joni> or because you use the speed he has in there
[21:02:46] <cradek> there's no way I can run it here
[21:03:02] <alex_joni> you might scale them all
[21:03:13] <alex_joni> but that's .. error prone
[21:03:14] <cradek> that has never gone well for me
[21:03:21] <cradek> yeah. that's an understatement
[21:03:39] <alex_joni> I get an ferror on FO=300%
[21:03:52] <alex_joni> but only after those lines ray mentioned
[21:04:20] <cradek> as far as I know, FO won't command anything F9999 in the program won't
[21:07:53] <rayh> <skunkworks> ray - the 32 bit verions?
[21:08:12] <rayh> I have the 64 but havn't tried a rt kernel.
[21:08:47] <alex_joni> rayh: can you describe what you were seeing?
[21:09:08] <rayh> The first place that I saw fe when period was to large was on the first z down to feed.
[21:09:54] <rayh> Where the z down at rapid switches to feedrate is where overshoot is very prominent.
[21:10:18] <rayh> It is also prominent at the quadrant changes during the circle mill.
[21:10:23] <alex_joni> ok, so you basicly were seeing fe?
[21:10:34] <alex_joni> I'm not sure I know what to look after
[21:10:58] <rayh> It stops, sometimes backs up a bit and then begins to feed.
[21:11:13] <alex_joni> and you see that how?
[21:11:23] <alex_joni> big zoom on the backplot?
[21:11:24] <rayh> by watching backplot.
[21:11:34] <rayh> Yes
[21:11:48] <alex_joni> how big?
[21:12:00] <rayh> 3,4,5
[21:12:12] <alex_joni> ok, trying 4 now
[21:12:20] <cradek> rayh: it would be great if you could grab that corner in halscope
[21:12:23] <rayh> I captured one overshoot while in step
[21:12:45] <rayh> Let me try.
[21:13:02] <cradek> you could trigger on Z position less than [right above the corner]
[21:13:25] <rayh> I've got a sample program that shows stop in x and a reversal or two in a circle.
[21:13:34] <cradek> good
[21:13:38] <rayh> I'll copy that over and send.
[21:13:40] <les_w> tp.c #ifdef is in on this right?
[21:14:07] <cradek> les_w: currently paul's change is taken out
[21:14:17] <les_w> oh ok
[21:15:03] <alex_joni> still can't see it at zoom=4
[21:15:04] <les_w> because with it out my full circle arcs stopped at the beginning of each quadrant
[21:15:38] <les_w> but it was g coded that way...4 90 degree arcs
[21:15:57] <les_w> with the #ifdef in it was one smooth circle.
[21:16:25] <cradek> so paul's change helped your machine a lot
[21:16:54] <les_w> oh, yeah...I wouldn't dream of taking it out
[21:17:19] <les_w> but I have not found any of this revrsal overshoot
[21:17:28] <cradek> les_w: in emc2 we're much more sensitive to constraint violations now - they immediately trigger following errors
[21:17:56] <cradek> les_w: your machine won't ferror even if you're having twice the requested accel (I guarantee you are sometimes)
[21:18:10] <alex_joni> rayh: is that surely the ini file? I see only 3 axes, and [traj]MAX_ is the same as [axes]MAX_
[21:18:29] <les_w> I know I have (probably) accels and velocities that violate my .ini....but if the path is followed not much problem really.
[21:18:37] <alex_joni> cradek: at least related to steppers
[21:18:41] <cradek> alex_joni: right
[21:19:04] <cradek> les_w: ok I understand; with steppers it's not the case that you can violate constraints and get away with it
[21:19:48] <rayh> It does it okay there though.
[21:19:49] <les_w> right...I can go 10 in/sec and accel 150 in/sec^2....
[21:20:09] <rayh> files on the way
[21:20:13] <les_w> so I can kinda let the tp pick what it wants
[21:20:15] <alex_joni> rayh: thanks
[21:20:30] <rayh> Thank you guys.
[21:20:59] <les_w> back in a few
[21:25:14] <alex_joni> rayh: I ran it, still can't see it
[21:26:17] <alex_joni> you sure it's not a backplot problem?
[21:27:07] <rayh> I see that I'm running with feedrate override at 300%
[21:27:34] <rayh> I wonder if this is a problem where scale gets multiplied in.
[21:28:03] <rayh> Let me run here with tripple the feedrate and scale at 100
[21:28:06] <alex_joni> at fo=300% I can't see much.. (zoom=3)
[21:28:24] <alex_joni> the updates in mini's backplot are about 3cm long on my screen
[21:29:09] <giacus_afk> giacus_afk is now known as giacus
[21:29:15] <alex_joni> ok, now I SEE it
[21:29:21] <alex_joni> stepping it
[21:29:36] <alex_joni> G0X1, and it turns black at the end, readout reads 1.2275
[21:30:10] <alex_joni> g0x3, readout 2.7725
[21:30:31] <alex_joni> no, I think that's step-related
[21:31:48] <rayh> The run at f120 and 100 scale does not show any delays at the blends.
[21:32:55] <alex_joni> I think at high speed I can see some delays at blends too, but I'm not sure what that is..
[21:33:03] <alex_joni> it might be display related
[21:33:09] <alex_joni> I'll try to scope it
[21:34:23] <rayh> You can increase display rate if your box will handle it.
[21:35:05] <alex_joni> I'll try after I run this test with halscope running
[21:35:27] <giacus> http://www.getdemocracy.com/ :P
[21:35:54] <giacus> Linux
[21:35:55] <giacus> Coming soon...
[21:37:01] <alex_joni> ok, I see no ferror whatsover
[21:38:04] <rayh> [display] CYCLE_TIME = 0.050 shows it really well here.
[21:39:15] <fenn> does this error show up in AXIS with the same gcode btw?
[21:39:40] <rayh> Axis displays commanded not actual position.
[21:39:52] <fenn> oh
[21:40:01] <alex_joni> rayh: I just made a recording with halscope
[21:40:15] <alex_joni> there wasn't any difference between commanded & actual
[21:40:16] <rayh> good thought, fenn
[21:40:39] <alex_joni> no difference I can measure on halscope (probably something like .00001" or less)
[21:40:45] <cradek> alex_joni: do you see reversal?
[21:40:53] <alex_joni> no
[21:40:55] <fenn> "actual" is the output of stepgen?
[21:41:08] <alex_joni> fenn: feedback from stepgen
[21:41:18] <rayh> actual is what is passed back to emc as current position.
[21:41:38] <rayh> I don't know what stepgen does to produce that.
[21:41:58] <alex_joni> ok, now I see it
[21:42:04] <rayh> I'm of the opinion that what I'm seeing is a feedrate override problem.
[21:42:16] <alex_joni> in the backplot
[21:42:21] <fenn> it slices it into little bits and makes sure you dont exceed some velocity/accel constraints
[21:42:21] <rayh> If I run 300 percent of feed it is really obvious.
[21:42:23] <alex_joni> let me see if it's in halscope aswell
[21:42:30] <alex_joni> rayh: running 300% now
[21:43:15] <rayh> for others thats 300% of 40 ipm
[21:43:41] <rayh> I see no blending issues at 120 ipm and 100% override.
[21:46:22] <dmessier> hi all..
[21:46:40] <dmessier> les around???
[21:46:58] <cradek> he was here recently
[21:47:42] <dmessier> i got the quote for the FMS i WAS considering... 1.35 Million US donaros..
[21:47:49] <jepler> 15:20:56 <les_w> back in a few
[21:47:53] <jepler> (that's 27 minutes ago)
[21:48:10] <alex_joni> rayh: I got it, will investigate it, and let you know when I know more.. ok?
[21:48:25] <les_w> I didn't say the time units...
[21:48:38] <alex_joni> lifespans..
[21:48:40] <dmessier> i can set up alot of individual machines for that $$$
[21:49:01] <les_w> reading back to see what happened...
[21:49:34] <rayh> Fantastic alex_joni
[21:50:14] <rayh> The effect of override is very small at low feedrates in the circle.
[21:50:44] <dmessier> you have to RE-MEMBER yourself...from one life to the other though
[21:50:45] <rayh> But it is really exagerated on the inline switch from rapid to feed.
[21:51:17] <dmessier> very peculiar??? hmm
[21:51:45] <rayh> bbl
[21:54:01] <dmessier> override is a plc function?? correct.. and the TP may be farting into the wall... where G01 and G00 transition maybe a pos'n window overlap or someting like that
[21:55:09] <dmessier> try an exact stop prior to the change over??
[21:55:18] <les_w> at 120 ipm and 20 or so in/sec^2 massive misblends were the rule before the #ifdef
[21:55:25] <les_w> however it followed the path
[21:55:36] <les_w> so you might not see it on a backplot
[21:55:53] <dmessier> but would a CMM plot show it??
[21:56:01] <les_w> ha
[21:56:02] <dmessier> in the part
[21:56:16] <les_w> well I could see it in the part
[21:56:30] <les_w> it's very very violent
[21:56:40] <les_w> floor shaking
[21:56:49] <les_w> on a big machine
[21:56:49] <dmessier> i just finished a part i KNOW is gonna be BLUE dots all over..
[21:56:58] <dmessier> wowo
[21:57:09] <skunkworks> so this is a feedrate overide issue again?
[21:57:14] <skunkworks> is that what I am reading?
[21:57:37] <les_w> I could be...but we found no evidence of that before
[21:57:38] <dmessier> at 100% is all sweet??
[21:58:02] <les_w> not sure from what ray said
[21:58:21] <dmessier> and at + 10% it starts...
[21:58:41] <dmessier> @ 50% its wild??
[21:59:16] <les_w> my feed overide was always fine
[21:59:18] <dmessier> bcz it is possible to over run the drive systems
[21:59:34] <skunkworks> bbl - late
[21:59:39] <les_w> k
[22:00:42] <alex_joni> dmessier: at 300% it's a bit wild
[22:00:59] <dmessier> i have GOOD lookin' part... with a row of green (good) dots ad a red dot -.02" in the middla of them all
[22:01:17] <alex_joni> dmessier: you need to look very hard to see this
[22:01:30] <alex_joni> and push the machine hard, you won't probably see anything
[22:01:47] <dmessier> at 300% overide YOU programmed the wrong chipload in the first place...
[22:02:31] <dmessier> our NDT inspectors find EVERYTHING
[22:03:03] <dmessier> etch & mag on all high strength steels
[22:03:47] <dmessier> 54-58 RC... machined post h/t
[22:05:23] <dmessier> one part in house this week 62 Rc .. m/c all over post h/t and ndt and plate... i was given 5 days
[22:06:16] <dmessier> i told them on a wish and a prayer it was 3 weeks minimum
[22:07:39] <dmessier> Alpha.... we gotta talk
[22:08:24] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier.?
[22:08:30] <A-L-P-H-A> I was about to go to my car... and get my laptop.
[22:08:31] <A-L-P-H-A> what's up?
[22:08:46] <dmessier> you wanna make some $$$$
[22:08:51] <A-L-P-H-A> sure I do.
[22:08:53] <A-L-P-H-A> who doesn't.
[22:09:04] <A-L-P-H-A> who do I have to kill... or impregnate?
[22:09:35] <dmessier> im building a team to man a plant.. part ime..
[22:09:38] <dmessier> time
[22:09:46] <A-L-P-H-A> cool.
[22:09:51] <A-L-P-H-A> what's the job criteria?
[22:10:02] <A-L-P-H-A> keep typig, I'll brb.
[22:10:24] <dmessier> oh you werent the the one that got to my bitch... as i forgot her out last nite..
[22:10:33] <les_w> magnaflux huh?
[22:10:42] <les_w> one of our divisions.
[22:10:59] <dmessier> burnese mountain dog is warm to cuddle
[22:11:13] <dmessier> NTD division
[22:11:41] <les_w> I say our...should be their...
[22:11:49] <les_w> I am a separate company
[22:11:59] <les_w> but have an ITW 401k....
[22:12:10] <les_w> things getting a little confusing
[22:12:17] <dmessier> use them to flux your magnets... ; )
[22:12:17] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier...
[22:12:18] <A-L-P-H-A> back
[22:12:41] <A-L-P-H-A> 'ight, so like what'd be the job requirements?
[22:12:53] <dmessier> ndt coil shots are GREAT...
[22:13:38] <dmessier> be there.. sort out the problems on the machines....keep her going...
[22:14:24] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier, that's it?
[22:14:26] <dmessier> req'm... initial investment.... and commitment of time...
[22:14:40] <A-L-P-H-A> like, make sure the motors are working... on the job training?
[22:14:42] <dmessier> get' her done attitude...
[22:14:46] <A-L-P-H-A> safety equip paid for?
[22:14:57] <dmessier> like what??
[22:15:02] <A-L-P-H-A> do I get to wear a red spiffy shirt?
[22:15:18] <A-L-P-H-A> goggles, steel toe boots?
[22:15:55] <dmessier> oh i have a red shirt for you.. QRT .... Quick response Team... SHUT UP or ill bury ya...LOL
[22:16:00] <les_w> hey got a patent issued today robin
[22:16:18] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier. :)
[22:16:24] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm wearing a red sweater right now.
[22:16:25] <robin_sz> les_w: coo, on the ferret mating spray?
[22:16:34] <A-L-P-H-A> but I look good in it. :)
[22:16:46] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier, 'ight so what are the hours like?
[22:16:50] <dmessier> you interested..??? the team a bunc a brainiacs
[22:17:00] <A-L-P-H-A> dmessier, give me the details... I'm interested.
[22:17:34] <les_w> no, it was on the female obedience brin beam
[22:17:40] <les_w> brain beam
[22:17:42] <les_w> haha
[22:17:46] <bill2or3> howdy
[22:17:46] <les_w> sun is in my eyes
[22:17:49] <alex_joni> hello d00d
[22:17:52] <robin_sz> les_w: or on your ultrasonic finger-burner?
[22:18:05] <les_w> no project before
[22:18:14] <les_w> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,974,949.WKU.&OS=PN/6,974,949&RS=PN/6,974,949
[22:18:30] <les_w> finger burner is PAF though
[22:20:57] <les_w> got the name order right too
[22:21:00] <robin_sz> coo. a sort of analogue pot, but without a carbon track ...
[22:21:09] <les_w> first name is the guy that sends the checks
[22:21:22] <les_w> I'm learning
[22:21:45] <les_w> it's mostly for a sneaky temperature comensation scheme
[22:21:54] <robin_sz> right
[22:22:37] <les_w> you know, this works. I just flat tell the client "i'll get you a patent"!
[22:22:49] <les_w> All he does is send the po through
[22:23:01] <les_w> he gets his name on it and a good review...
[22:23:01] <robin_sz> sorta a varying track and a fixed reference
[22:23:06] <les_w> I get $100k.
[22:23:14] <robin_sz> seems fair
[22:23:46] <cradek> les_w: do LEDs get dimmer as they age?
[22:23:47] <robin_sz> im having similar patent fun on some s/w at the moment ...
[22:23:57] <bill2or3> and all this time I've been burning my fingers the old fashioned way.
[22:24:04] <robin_sz> personally, I cant see how its patentable ...
[22:24:13] <cradek> les_w: of course phosphor-based ones do
[22:24:31] <robin_sz> but, the boss has paid some guy with an office on Park Avenue to tell him that it is .. so, I guess it is.
[22:24:32] <les_w> reference is mothing new...but puttinf a sample of the optical cam material in such a way that temperature induced changes in refractive index and specular reflection is
[22:25:09] <les_w> there is a special prism of the material in the reference optics...
[22:26:07] <les_w> that piece is moulded on the same sprue in the injection mold
[22:26:16] <robin_sz> coo.
[22:26:17] <les_w> as the cam
[22:26:45] <robin_sz> and you can make a cam thats linear, or at least linear enough?
[22:26:47] <les_w> so basically it is temperature stable from -40 to +125...but costs 3 bucks.
[22:27:04] <les_w> I can do 1% custom tapers
[22:27:13] <les_w> cheap
[22:27:20] <robin_sz> neat.
[22:27:31] <les_w> we have sold a bunch already
[22:27:33] <robin_sz> and when a spec of dirt gets in? it goes full throttle?
[22:27:41] <les_w> sealed
[22:27:54] <les_w> works underwater
[22:28:00] <fenn> haha just dont tell them that
[22:28:04] <robin_sz> ok, when a loose bit of crud left in during manufacture falls across the sensor?
[22:28:06] <les_w> heh
[22:28:16] <les_w> I get sued...
[22:28:26] <robin_sz> heh
[22:28:39] <les_w> I also designed the production testers
[22:28:41] <fenn> its not like it's a fly by wire system.. (is it?)
[22:28:46] <robin_sz> just put a bit of double sided tape on the inside of the lid :)
[22:29:17] <bill2or3> that's sort of a neat idea.
[22:29:23] <bill2or3> but then I like anything involving LED's
[22:29:34] <robin_sz> really?
[22:29:41] <robin_sz> so, can I have your mouse then?
[22:30:08] <bill2or3> no, I like it. (it involves led's)
[22:30:08] <robin_sz> and all your servo encoders
[22:30:21] <dmessier> l8r
[22:30:22] <robin_sz> oh wait ..
[22:30:33] <robin_sz> I read thats as i DONT like ...
[22:30:42] <bill2or3> heh.
[22:30:42] <robin_sz> my bad
[22:30:59] <bill2or3> on my mouse at home I replaced the blue wheel-light with a color cycling led.
[22:31:01] <bill2or3> it's neat
[22:31:04] <robin_sz> the double sided tape is a cute trick used in laser servicing ...
[22:31:51] <robin_sz> after a mjor blow up, you replace the mirrors with blanks of double sided tape, vac it down and run hte trubines overnite
[22:33:21] <bill2or3> so all the cruft sticks to the tape?
[22:33:31] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:34:36] <alex_joni> hello robin
[22:34:53] <robin_sz> heloo alex_joni
[22:35:20] <alex_joni> how's life at the stables?
[22:35:32] <robin_sz> full of small boys :)
[22:35:59] <alex_joni> that's nice
[22:36:45] <robin_sz> and lots and lots of work
[22:36:58] <robin_sz> took on a new welder this week too
[22:37:21] <robin_sz> thats two of them now
[22:38:00] <alex_joni> great
[22:38:17] <robin_sz> one of the production jobs would do great with a bot
[22:39:22] <alex_joni> hehe.. they always do :)
[22:39:43] <robin_sz> I can imagine how a bot welds nicely up am internal corner
[22:39:52] <robin_sz> arc voltage sensing and weaving
[22:40:24] <robin_sz> what about external corners ... does it need cpacative height sensors onthe faces for that?
[22:40:50] <alex_joni> usually laser scanning for that
[22:40:56] <robin_sz> woo
[22:41:02] <alex_joni> but that's 1..1.5 the price of the bot ;)
[22:41:11] <robin_sz> ahh
[22:41:33] <robin_sz> realistically, a second-user basic bot sells for?
[22:42:32] <alex_joni> 20kEUR
[22:42:39] <alex_joni> I wouldn't buy one that's cheaper
[22:42:40] <robin_sz> right
[22:42:44] <les_w> long call about voltage coeficients vs ESR on PZT materials
[22:43:57] <les_w> told the ceramics blenders to maximize V^2/ESR
[22:44:15] <les_w> in the 31 direction
[22:45:11] <robin_sz> alex_joni: like this maybe?? http://www.goindustry.com/offerfiles/839000/839416_1.jpg?TimeStamp=0x000000000F805BE4
[22:45:58] <alex_joni> 10k tops for that
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> with welder included
[22:52:38] <les_w> did ray vanish? what of the tests?
[22:53:07] <robin_sz> alex_joni: well, it has no welder ...
[22:53:16] <alex_joni> then less
[22:53:17] <alex_joni> ;)
[22:53:18] <robin_sz> alex_joni: current bid is sub 1000 :)
[22:53:29] <robin_sz> like err, 300 eur
[22:55:37] <rayh> Hi Les. Was making supper.
[22:55:43] <les_w> ah
[22:56:01] <rayh> We have figured out how to cause it consistently.
[22:56:14] <les_w> thawed corn beef and cabbage frome the big cook last sunday for me.
[22:56:25] <les_w> how?
[22:56:51] <rayh> scale or feedrate override is the offender.
[22:57:07] <les_w> hmm
[22:57:08] <alex_joni> yes, but TP is the problem, once again
[22:57:21] <rayh> But it seems to interact differentially with different types of blends.
[22:57:29] <les_w> well feed overide is an integral part of the tp
[22:58:06] <les_w> I.E scaling in tp/tc
[22:59:21] <les_w> I still suspect it is clamping early in the pt process, then checking and reclamping later
[22:59:45] <les_w> that would be consistent with the #ifdef ANd feed overide inputs
[23:00:19] <les_w> the check might not see the overide clamp earlier
[23:00:30] <les_w> tp not pt
[23:01:36] <les_w> tp is a program...pt is a car
[23:01:45] <les_w> and a damn ugly one too.
[23:01:56] <les_w> well, both are.
[23:03:47] <les_w> just so I understand....
[23:04:06] <alex_joni> and with that in mind, I go to bed
[23:04:38] <les_w> paul #ifdef in.....overshoot depending on feed overide
[23:05:03] <les_w> #ifdef out, no overshoot but horrible misblend?
[23:05:07] <les_w> night alex
[23:06:35] <robin_sz> the tp still not right?
[23:06:49] <les_w> not in emc2.
[23:07:00] <les_w> It's better in emc 1
[23:07:36] <les_w> It does violate max accel by 2 to one to get the right path.
[23:07:43] <les_w> that is a non issue.
[23:07:50] <les_w> hey, divide by 2.
[23:07:53] <alex_joni> les_w: same in emc2
[23:08:02] <les_w> ok
[23:08:12] <robin_sz> alex_joni: seriously for a monent ...
[23:08:15] <alex_joni> 2:1, but that's an issue with stepgen (which is very strict)
[23:08:18] <les_w> well apples and oranges, but mostly the same dna huh?
[23:08:25] <robin_sz> a bot like that could be made to weld?
[23:08:28] <alex_joni> no, TP is the same one
[23:08:38] <alex_joni> robin_sz: probably so, but it would be non-trivial
[23:08:55] <robin_sz> so there are weld bit and "other" bots?
[23:09:01] <robin_sz> weld bots
[23:09:23] <alex_joni> there are bots.. and there are a 'few' weld bots
[23:09:43] <robin_sz> is it just a software thing?
[23:09:48] <alex_joni> most of the manufacturers make them for all app.fields (like fanuc, motoman, yaskawa, etc)
[23:09:52] <alex_joni> only software
[23:10:12] <robin_sz> this a "univeral" bot :)
[23:10:24] <alex_joni> very few (I know of one: cloos;) makes them ONLY for welding
[23:10:50] <robin_sz> right
[23:10:59] <les_w> I may be looking at bots to do resonator trim...looking at impedance curves in a fourth order system and moving poles...with lasers perhaps
[23:11:02] <alex_joni> but I think you might be able to handle one that has other tasks in the SW aswell
[23:11:21] <robin_sz> theres another with a Fanuc R-J2 control
[23:11:26] <les_w> No doubt I'll hire one of you guys to write the code...
[23:11:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is off to sleep
[23:11:40] <alex_joni> night all
[23:11:54] <alex_joni> robin_sz: don't know R-J2.. sorry
[23:11:58] <robin_sz> k
[23:12:04] <robin_sz> night alex_joni
[23:12:58] <les_w> any wavelength blast bright aluminum robin?
[23:13:25] <les_w> not co2
[23:13:29] <les_w> not yag
[23:13:47] <les_w> unless I black anodize it
[23:20:04] <giacus> g night