#emc | Logs for 2006-02-01

[00:00:06] <robin_sz> gday
[00:00:20] <robin_sz> busy day!
[00:00:25] <robin_sz> end of month ... :)
[00:00:56] <robin_sz> you'll be suprised how much we can departch and invoice in one day when we have to :)
[00:19:27] <Jacky^> g night
[00:19:35] <Jacky^> Jacky^ is now known as Jacky^afk
[00:52:52] <jepler> $ cvs update
[00:52:52] <jepler> ssh: connect to host cvs.sourceforge.net port 22: Connection refused
[00:52:58] <jepler> anybody else having problems with sourceforge cvs?
[00:54:10] <jepler> aha "Project CVS Service: Offline - Unplanned Downtime In-Progress"
[00:55:38] <jepler> hi ray
[01:30:29] <rayh> Hi jepler
[01:41:43] <SWPadnos> heh - delayed reaction :)
[01:41:47] <SWPadnos> s
[01:50:40] <rayh> I guess and so's this.
[01:51:01] <rayh> working on halconfig with a wide broom.
[01:52:24] <SWPadnos> cool
[01:52:32] <SWPadnos> need a dustpan?
[01:54:53] <rayh> Gonna use the bmf vacuum on the floor pretty soon.
[01:55:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:55:30] <rayh> question?
[01:55:35] <SWPadnos> sure
[01:56:18] <rayh> You've got a button named "setup linkpp"
[01:56:30] <rayh> you press it and it shows two entry widgets
[01:56:46] <rayh> that you can fill by clicking on leaves in the tree widget.
[01:57:04] <rayh> You've also got a button named "submit"
[01:57:27] <rayh> What do you want to see when you press submit?
[01:57:50] <SWPadnos> is there a list of signals onscreen anywhere?
[01:58:06] <rayh> not yet
[01:58:25] <SWPadnos> ok - it's in the tree, but not necessariily visible yet (right?)
[01:58:35] <rayh> right
[01:58:50] <SWPadnos> will it be automatically added to the tree when you click submit?
[01:59:07] <SWPadnos> or will that require a refresh?
[01:59:09] <rayh> yep if it can without having to break another link
[01:59:35] <rayh> I'll put the tree refresh in with the command to submit
[01:59:45] <SWPadnos> you probably don't want to do that
[02:00:04] <SWPadnos> it's two commands that may race, and on my machine it takes 5 seconds for refresh
[02:00:40] <rayh> I'm getting the impression that you'd like to see the reply from bin/halcmd show $thesigtobemade.
[02:00:45] <SWPadnos> is the area used for watches available for use, or are the pin name widgets there?
[02:00:58] <SWPadnos> there should be something, but I'm not sure what at this point
[02:01:44] <rayh> Right. Some folk would go right on making linkpps
[02:01:52] <SWPadnos> if the watch area is available, then it can be used for user feedback
[02:01:56] <rayh> others might choose to setp or sets
[02:02:01] <SWPadnos> the second one will fail ...
[02:02:23] <SWPadnos> click - "hey, did that work?" click click click ... :)
[02:02:23] <rayh> Right it woud only work for a linksp or linkps
[02:03:09] <SWPadnos> you know that it worked if you get a null response from halcmd
[02:03:16] <rayh> That is where the bin/halcmd show sig $thisnewsig is better than a puts to the open channel.
[02:03:16] <SWPadnos> anything wlse would be an error
[02:03:19] <SWPadnos> else
[02:03:35] <rayh> all of the -skf replies are empty
[02:03:41] <SWPadnos> just puts show sig $thisnewsig
[02:04:25] <rayh> In a simple text area above the buttons and entry widgets.
[02:04:29] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it might be good to have a way of asking for ?normal? output on a command by command basis
[02:04:43] <rayh> the user can then figure out if it worked or not.
[02:04:55] <SWPadnos> you still have a race condition
[02:05:05] <SWPadnos> possibly
[02:05:26] <SWPadnos> it's two instances of halcmd, you can't necessarily be sure which one will complete firs
[02:05:31] <SWPadnos> t
[02:05:35] <SWPadnos> (I think)
[02:06:03] <rayh> so we need to stage the submit and follow with the show.
[02:06:25] <rayh> and update the tree widget in the background.
[02:06:35] <SWPadnos> yep, or just submit, and print "new signal "yaddaYadda" created" if you get the right response
[02:06:47] <SWPadnos> if you get the wrong response, print what you got
[02:06:56] <SWPadnos> "Error: halcmd barfed on that"
[02:07:30] <rayh> I like the "dumb fsck" response myself.
[02:07:40] <SWPadnos> "Error: halcmd barfed on that, you dumb fsck!"
[02:07:54] <rayh> Okay that's it.
[02:07:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:08:15] <SWPadnos> "Here's what HALCMD had to say about it, you useless twit:"
[02:08:25] <rayh> Maybe add a icon of "barf"
[02:08:30] <SWPadnos> sound effects, too
[02:09:25] <rayh> A user makes pins by loadrt of some sort of thing.
[02:09:42] <rayh> so those would already have to exist when linkpp is issued.
[02:09:51] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:10:05] <rayh> so the signal created by linkpp is the real way to see if it worked.
[02:10:23] <SWPadnos> the bigger issue is that the links will go away if the user unloads a module, and they won't come back if the module is reloaded (to add another PID, for example)
[02:10:37] <SWPadnos> no - if halcmd doesn't return an error, then it worked
[02:11:21] <rayh> but with the -skf option there are no returned errors.
[02:11:27] <SWPadnos> yes there are
[02:11:55] <SWPadnos> none of the error responses have changed, only the headers and show formatting
[02:12:03] <SWPadnos> plus the prompt is changed
[02:12:33] <rayh> ah I see it.
[02:12:54] <SWPadnos> you just don't see errors because you're sending good commands ;)
[02:13:26] <rayh> yea right. I believe you but there's thousands that wouldn't.
[02:14:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:14:41] <SWPadnos> just type in a bogus command in the command edit box
[02:15:47] <rayh> oops linkpp works where existing links already are
[02:15:57] <rayh> except in the case of write pins.
[02:16:21] <SWPadnos> ah - yep.
[02:16:39] <SWPadnos> the linksp / linkps commands will automatically unlink a pin if it's already connected somewhere
[02:17:22] <rayh> linkpp the same?
[02:18:13] <rayh> Were going to need a "don't try this at home, kids" disclaimer.
[02:18:22] <SWPadnos> linkpp is an internal macro for newsig / linksp / linksp
[02:18:42] <SWPadnos> the only failure mode is if the signal already exists
[02:18:51] <SWPadnos> (other than HAL internal errors of various types)
[02:18:56] <rayh> okay I see what need to be displayed.
[02:19:14] <rayh> gonna go away and sweep up.
[02:19:15] <SWPadnos> so you couldn't link pin A to pin B, then link pin A to pin C also
[02:19:33] <SWPadnos> eith linkpp used for both cases
[02:19:38] <SWPadnos> s/eith/with/
[02:19:42] <rayh> except through a block thanks for your help
[02:19:48] <SWPadnos> sure - have fun
[08:52:36] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Apologies for not getting back with you on that main rotation server split. We're looking at the problem. Meanwhile, US donor tax receipts for paypal donations have been sent to your paypal email address. If you need a receipt and haven't received one, please message me. Thanks!
[08:54:09] <lilo> [Global Notice] Those are the 2005 tax receipts. We're about to start our 2006-2007 fundraiser for PDPC, so if you would like to help get us going a bit early, please take a look at the freenode website ( http://freenode.net/pdpc_donations.shtml ). Thanks, and have a great morning!
[12:36:18] <Jacky^afk> Jacky^afk is now known as Jacky^
[12:36:23] <Jacky^> morning
[12:37:04] <Jacky^> Linux Viruscan..... Windows Vista Found Remove it ? (Y/y)
[12:37:07] <Jacky^> bauhaahahha
[13:00:10] <Jacky^_> hahah funny :)
[13:01:32] <Jacky^> :P
[14:44:44] <les_w> no estop flames yet huh ray?
[14:50:42] <anonimasu> morning
[14:50:45] <anonimasu> ^_^
[15:11:32] <rayh> Not yet.
[15:11:50] <rayh> Got any suggestions what we should do to encourage 'em?
[15:12:23] <cradek> I could say I use the mouse to click on the estop button when I need to estop, and it's good enough for me
[15:14:04] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ is tryng to use the cat ..
[15:15:39] <rayh> That ought to start something cradek
[15:15:49] <Jacky^> http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller/photo/675881
[15:16:55] <Jacky^> this damn cat its a bit wilde, wont understant when to puch estop and when not :D
[15:16:59] <Jacky^> push
[15:18:49] <rayh> And it's paws are just a bit wide to push a single button.
[15:18:55] <rayh> key
[15:19:04] <Jacky^> :D
[15:47:41] <les_w> hi ray, jacky, chris
[15:48:26] <les_w> Well I am changing the estop chain on my machine in hopes of making it safer so my workers can run it.
[15:49:10] <les_w> I still have the problem of a hot spindle during tool change....the vfd has to stay on
[15:49:31] <SWPadnos> make sure to look through the estop discussion on the users list ;)
[15:49:46] <les_w> Oh I am
[15:49:49] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:49:59] <rayh> Sure. How would the machine react to an estop during tool change?
[15:50:07] <SWPadnos> your machine definitely qualifies for excessive estop hardware
[15:50:25] <les_w> yeah
[15:50:36] <les_w> It could do some damage
[15:50:39] <SWPadnos> especially with employees using it and all
[15:50:45] <les_w> yup.
[15:51:10] <les_w> Well, I am going with 24v and optos everywhere
[15:51:23] <SWPadnos> thanks for reminding me
[15:51:49] <SWPadnos> there's a 24V 21A power supply on eBay
[15:51:49] <les_w> heh
[15:52:13] <SWPadnos> I'm probably going to get that, and have the computer/pendant and LCD run from that supply
[15:52:19] <les_w> I just bought a new condor from mouser.
[15:52:57] <SWPadnos> this one is $20 ;)
[15:53:09] <les_w> I'll put 78l05 regulators at the encoders and optos at the stg.
[15:53:10] <SWPadnos> Power One
[15:53:54] <SWPadnos> gah - I can't stand Mouser's search facilities
[15:54:43] <les_w> I usually use digi key...but sometimes mouser if they are the only one with the part
[15:54:47] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:54:55] <SWPadnos> Mouser is better for the circular MS connectors as well
[15:55:05] <les_w> and wire
[15:55:08] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:55:23] <SWPadnos> but the DigiKey search is actually useful
[15:55:33] <SWPadnos> which I can't say for Mouser, Avnet, Future, Arrow ...
[15:56:40] <les_w> Should be some discussion on what to use the soft estop on emc for
[15:56:51] <les_w> In my case, not much
[15:56:58] <SWPadnos> "hey machine - you can stop now"
[15:57:03] <les_w> ferror
[15:57:13] <les_w> that's about the only thing
[15:57:32] <SWPadnos> that's all that the computer can detect in any case, right?
[15:58:03] <SWPadnos> or some remote stop (like from your computer in the office)
[15:58:09] <les_w> It could do some more I guess
[15:58:52] <les_w> but I wouldn't want to
[15:59:15] <les_w> I wrote some failure mode analisis for the thing yesterday
[15:59:36] <les_w> behavior with a power glitch is a concern
[16:00:03] <SWPadnos> for the computer, or the drives? (or spindle)
[16:00:39] <les_w> so i go to hard estop...computer stays on, but servos are braked and vfd power is removed
[16:00:55] <les_w> I let the spindle coast down
[16:01:22] <les_w> If I brake the spindle it might stop before the servos
[16:01:28] <les_w> which would be very bad
[16:01:40] <SWPadnos> that's the 7HP spindle?
[16:01:50] <les_w> 5
[16:01:53] <les_w> 4 kW
[16:01:56] <SWPadnos> oh - only 5 ;)
[16:02:10] <SWPadnos> letting it spin shouldn't be a problem
[16:02:16] <les_w> right
[16:02:24] <SWPadnos> do you have tach output available from the servos?
[16:02:37] <les_w> yes
[16:02:47] <SWPadnos> I sense a quad op-amp circuit
[16:03:05] <SWPadnos> sum the servo velocities, and hit the spindle brake if they're below X
[16:03:11] <SWPadnos> (in estop)
[16:03:22] <les_w> well I built up an analog board that senses servo speed and current
[16:03:33] <les_w> and calculates tool force
[16:03:55] <les_w> it can separate tool force from friction and inertia forces
[16:03:59] <SWPadnos> will that be valid when you're trying to stop the servos?
[16:04:05] <les_w> up to a point
[16:04:27] <les_w> well, it is separate and can be battery powered
[16:04:45] <SWPadnos> that circuit could almost run from the back EMF
[16:05:01] <les_w> I modelled the friction with a diode network
[16:05:36] <les_w> so it just solves the second order non linear equation with op amps.
[16:06:03] <les_w> seems to work ok
[16:06:14] <SWPadnos> do you have a circuit diagram somewhere? that sounds like an interesting gizmo
[16:06:32] <les_w> so, I can estop on cutting force
[16:06:47] <les_w> yeah I will check
[16:06:57] <SWPadnos> does it sense tool diameter as well? ;)
[16:07:07] <SWPadnos> (and material)
[16:07:15] <les_w> hah no....
[16:10:21] <SWPadnos> well then it's useless :)
[16:10:39] <les_w> aw my protel is not working right
[16:10:48] <SWPadnos> 99se?
[16:10:50] <les_w> I think it's on there
[16:10:53] <les_w> yeah
[16:11:01] <SWPadnos> ok - I should be able to import that
[16:11:23] <SWPadnos> (damned Altium doesn't import Advanced PCB 2.xx correctly )
[16:11:30] <les_w> I moved it to another disk and it can't find a file...
[16:11:39] <SWPadnos> of course, the software is 10 years old now, so I guess that's not too bad
[16:11:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:11:49] <SWPadnos> the curse of ZIP disks as well
[16:14:05] <les_w> owww "reinstalling the application may help"
[16:14:10] <les_w> bleh
[16:14:29] <SWPadnos> heh - nevermind. if one of us remembers later, we can do it then
[16:14:38] <les_w> I'm not sure the schematic is on there anyway
[16:17:51] <les_w> anyway it's just a bunch of differentiators
[16:19:01] <les_w> the only thing that isn't modelled well is stick slip
[16:20:06] <les_w> so before it slips, it thinks the stick is tool force
[16:21:37] <SWPadnos> right - you'd need to throw in an additional drag component when the speed is near 0
[16:21:52] <SWPadnos> (exactly 0, but in the analog world ...)
[16:22:00] <les_w> uh oh got an email from corporate...they went ahead and ordered some BK sound gear for me to use up there
[16:22:20] <les_w> I guess I have to buy that car right away
[16:24:16] <les_w> They could send the stuff down here....but I need something that can do fft averages at 100 kHz
[16:24:42] <SWPadnos> how about a low frequency spectrum analyzer?
[16:25:00] <les_w> btw the BK 1/4 microphones with -3db at 100k were $1800 each just for the capsule
[16:25:01] <SWPadnos> they generally work well down to DC
[16:25:30] <les_w> Well there is an analyzer up there but it only goes to 25k
[16:25:47] <les_w> so will use a fancy tek scope
[16:26:01] <les_w> they have some brand new ones
[16:26:05] <SWPadnos> 25k? - that's not an analyzer, that's a toy
[16:26:20] <les_w> well it is for audio only
[16:26:30] <SWPadnos> heh - there is that
[16:26:50] <SWPadnos> are you actually operating things at 100KHz?
[16:27:05] <les_w> But I seem to be doing all ultrasonics these days
[16:27:19] <SWPadnos> if so, you should have an analyzer that goes to at least 500 KHz, and preferably 1 MHz
[16:27:20] <les_w> yeah 40-100khz
[16:28:38] <les_w> Well the tek scopes can be programmed to average multiple FFTs of pings
[16:28:53] <les_w> rectangular window will work
[16:29:05] <SWPadnos> sure - that gives good average response, but no glitch capture
[16:29:22] <les_w> They ought to just send me the stuff
[16:29:25] <les_w> but then
[16:29:40] <les_w> I am charging 1k a day to drive
[16:29:59] <SWPadnos> plus mileage
[16:30:13] <SWPadnos> and fine meals and hotels
[16:30:21] <les_w> I need to show my face up there I guess
[16:30:40] <les_w> I sure ain't gonna stay at motel 8!
[16:31:50] <SWPadnos> Hilton all the way, baby!
[16:32:02] <SWPadnos> I like having clients pay for my miles and hotel points
[16:32:24] <les_w> I need to visit Switches, Miller, Hobart, Gema, Finishing Systems
[16:32:26] <les_w> and
[16:32:35] <les_w> Chronotherm
[16:32:44] <les_w> I started that division.
[16:32:45] <SWPadnos> I've got round 300k frequent flyer miles, and I'm getting close to having another week at Hilton hotels
[16:33:32] <les_w> I used to stay at pretty fancy hotels I guess
[16:33:55] <les_w> trying to think which one was the fanciest....
[16:34:01] <les_w> oh yeah....
[16:34:16] <les_w> the Trianon
[16:34:27] <les_w> at Versailles!!!
[16:34:31] <les_w> haha
[16:34:36] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:34:45] <SWPadnos> never been to France - hope to remedy that some day
[16:35:07] <les_w> I remember the fancy gold and marble lavatories
[16:35:17] <les_w> and a $600 dinner bill
[16:35:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:35:26] <les_w> They set me up there
[16:35:27] <SWPadnos> for one?
[16:35:36] <les_w> they being ITW de France
[16:35:44] <les_w> yeah!
[16:35:45] <SWPadnos> Tresbon
[16:35:48] <SWPadnos> Tres bon
[16:36:26] <SWPadnos> I think I've only seen one place where a single person could spend that much on a meal, and it's at London Heathrow airport
[16:36:40] <SWPadnos> but you could easily spend 2x that on lunch there
[16:36:51] <les_w> what was that for....oh yeah I was working with Ricaro seats a while
[16:37:11] <les_w> Oh I moved out of the trianon after a while
[16:37:13] <SWPadnos> not that I'd buy $100 caviar and $400 champagne for lunch
[16:37:21] <SWPadnos> $1000 caviar, that is
[16:37:39] <les_w> No one at versailles but tourists
[16:37:43] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:37:51] <SWPadnos> same with Heathrow ;)
[16:38:01] <les_w> I preferred the left bank....more girls there
[16:38:08] <SWPadnos> and less tops
[16:38:36] <les_w> I have not been there in a while...several years
[16:38:54] <les_w> I have trouble travelling these days
[16:39:01] <SWPadnos> too much work
[16:39:33] <SWPadnos> to be done
[16:39:34] <les_w> the being at a place at a time part is the problem for me
[16:39:46] <les_w> which is why i drive
[16:40:05] <les_w> I can just go at my own pace
[16:40:21] <SWPadnos> I prefer to go at the pilot's pace (which I'm not, at this point)
[16:40:23] <les_w> no hurry up and wait
[16:40:38] <SWPadnos> yes - that does get annoying
[16:40:44] <les_w> Oh I thought about flying myself up there
[16:41:11] <les_w> but no chance of good weather this time of year
[16:41:33] <SWPadnos> my wife took flying lessons a longtime ago. amybe we should go take the classes together
[16:41:38] <SWPadnos> heh - nope
[16:42:03] <les_w> I would just get stuck at some little airport in tennnessee or something
[16:42:20] <SWPadnos> and who needs *that*?
[16:42:24] <les_w> also I have not landed on ice in several years
[16:42:34] <les_w> I used to be pretty good at it
[16:42:51] <SWPadnos> oops - got to go run an errand. be back later
[16:42:55] <les_w> k
[16:43:08] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[16:48:30] <fenn> heh ITW de france.. what a crazy world
[16:49:54] <les_w> work for them?
[16:50:32] <fenn> just the idea; "illinois tool works of france"
[16:50:47] <les_w> ITW is really getting big. They were fairly small when I started in 84
[16:51:03] <fenn> its like japan servo of america.. wtf does that mean?
[16:51:09] <les_w> haha
[16:51:32] <les_w> I see they jut bought LPS
[16:51:40] <les_w> you know the rust goop
[16:51:42] <fenn> yeah
[16:51:58] <fenn> i'd like to see a corporate family tree some day
[16:52:08] <fenn> wonder how many are left
[16:52:30] <les_w> I started at a venture group spinoff of ITW switches
[16:52:42] <les_w> formerly Chicago switch
[16:52:59] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/debian/rules: call configure with the correct flags
[16:53:14] <les_w> My job was to create a polymer thick film product line
[16:53:28] <les_w> It took over 5 years
[16:53:56] <les_w> I tried everything...medical, auto, video game stuff...
[16:54:25] <les_w> I wanted something "peel and stick"
[16:54:41] <les_w> like a membrane switch
[16:54:49] <les_w> but with coponents on it
[16:55:03] <les_w> components
[16:55:31] <fenn> to do what.. anything?
[16:55:45] <les_w> ha well to make money
[16:56:45] <les_w> finally found it....we went into the black the sixth year
[16:56:56] <les_w> that product was my mirror heater.
[16:56:57] <fenn> the car heater thing?
[16:57:03] <fenn> wah
[16:57:03] <les_w> yeah
[16:57:29] <fenn> these guys have some cool stuff going on http://www.plasticlogic.com/
[16:57:42] <les_w> cost a quarter...sell for a buck. Print like newspapers
[16:58:34] <CIA-17> 03cradek * 10emc2/debian/control: dependencies
[17:00:34] <les_w> ah...polymer semiconductors
[17:00:43] <les_w> polyacetylene
[17:01:25] <fenn> here's to hoping that some day we might print out fully functional circuits on an inkjet
[17:01:47] <les_w> where are they?
[17:01:59] <fenn> all over
[17:02:22] <les_w> hmm have engineering openings
[17:02:42] <les_w> I'll send them some consulting junk
[17:02:46] <fenn> mostly focused in cambridge and boston i bet
[17:03:24] <les_w> funny seems a huge engineering shortage is shaping up
[17:03:50] <fenn> why's that?
[17:03:59] <les_w> don't know
[17:04:30] <les_w> I think younger people don't want to endure the rigors of engineering school
[17:04:44] <fenn> i sure as hell dont
[17:04:44] <les_w> so no one to replace us old farts
[17:05:10] <les_w> it's a lot of work
[17:05:32] <fenn> there's a lot of classes you have to take that have absolutely no relevance to your field
[17:05:58] <fenn> and by the time you get out of college its all out of date anyway
[17:06:13] <fenn> the apprentice system was invented for a reason
[17:06:14] <cradek> guys from india are happy to come here and be engineers (and doctors, and scientists).
[17:06:29] <les_w> yeah...we all take the same core
[17:06:58] <les_w> so cradek is an EE and I'm an AE but we both took thermo!
[17:07:06] <fenn> but really, do you need calculus for semiconductor manufacturing?
[17:07:07] <cradek> well I'm a CE
[17:07:23] <les_w> civil?
[17:07:27] <les_w> chemical?
[17:07:30] <cradek> computer (EE + CS)
[17:07:37] <les_w> ohhh
[17:08:43] <cradek> I think in the future US, most of the highly-educated people are going to be from asia.
[17:09:02] <les_w> yes
[17:09:13] <les_w> well middle class is vanishing
[17:09:35] <fenn> wonder what happens next..
[17:09:45] <cradek> I assume the debt eventually kills them off
[17:09:54] <les_w> not sure
[17:10:09] <les_w> I just know we had better make things here
[17:10:11] <cradek> in yesterday's paper I read that in 2005 americans saved -.5% of their income
[17:10:25] <cradek> that has happened two years before: 1932, 1933
[17:10:33] <les_w> wow
[17:10:53] <les_w> I am trying to save a lot
[17:11:04] <cradek> it's unamerican
[17:11:10] <cradek> you should be consuming things
[17:11:13] <les_w> because I have this rule....
[17:11:23] <les_w> owe no money
[17:11:25] <les_w> at all
[17:11:41] <les_w> I have no debts at all
[17:11:47] <cradek> I owe part of my house, but that's all.
[17:12:02] <fenn> i owe lots of apologies, but that's all
[17:12:06] <les_w> haha
[17:12:19] <cradek> fenn: I try not to owe too many of those either
[17:12:36] <les_w> but I have to have some savings to do that
[17:12:49] <cradek> most people use debt to buy things they don't need (especially fancy cars)... that's crazy
[17:13:04] <SWP_Away> fenn, yes, you do need calculus for semiconductor manufacturing
[17:13:07] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[17:13:12] <fenn> ok i wasnt sure
[17:13:24] <SWPadnos> in fact, you need calculus to design a transformer
[17:13:32] <les_w> well I guess the business car titration is on the fancy side
[17:13:52] <les_w> you need calculus for just about everything rally
[17:13:54] <les_w> haha
[17:13:59] <SWPadnos> yep
[17:14:04] <fenn> seems lots of people get by without it
[17:14:16] <les_w> sure
[17:14:19] <SWPadnos> unless you want to use the simplistic approximations, or just make things 3x as big as they need to be
[17:14:29] <cradek> lots of people get by without knowing how to read or write
[17:15:01] <SWPadnos> right. it doesn't mean it's a good idea, but it happens
[17:15:25] <fenn> i have the funny situation of having the highest grade in my calculus class, but since i never used it for anything practical i cant remember any of it
[17:15:40] <cradek> derivative of sin is cos
[17:15:48] <cradek> I bet you remember some
[17:15:56] <SWPadnos> integral of cos is sin
[17:16:05] <les_w> anyway fenn, this may sound strange, but the calculus is to make really hard to understand things easier.
[17:16:25] <fenn> yeah its closer to the source
[17:16:26] <SWPadnos> tell that to a tensor ;)
[17:16:27] <rayh> and obfuscate all the rest
[17:16:40] <les_w> heh
[17:16:59] <SWPadnos> where else can you say "del cross B" and not be taken for a fool?
[17:17:04] <fenn> i wish mathematic notation werent so crappy
[17:17:34] <les_w> like del?
[17:17:36] <les_w> heh
[17:17:43] <fenn> its like C programs, if you dont know what the variables stand for you're screwed
[17:17:54] <SWPadnos> well, if I had the right symols, it would look different
[17:18:12] <SWPadnos> if you don't know what a sxemicolon or parantheses do, you're even more screwed
[17:18:15] <SWPadnos> semicolon
[17:18:21] <SWPadnos> argh
[17:19:51] <les_w> you do need to know some terminology for math, but not a lot.
[17:21:40] <les_w> some vector stuff gets a little busy
[17:21:45] <fenn> you havent been reading physics papers all day
[17:22:00] <SWPadnos> you sure need calculus for that
[17:22:06] <les_w> actually I have haha
[17:22:20] <fenn> well alrighty then :0
[17:23:20] <les_w> I have a big stack of papers right here on deriving composite beam deflections
[17:23:49] <les_w> because I am designing unimorph piezo transducers
[17:24:25] <les_w> Bessel functions coming out my ears!
[17:26:54] <les_w> It's amazing how complicated the motions of two little disks epoxied together can be
[17:27:52] <les_w> I am trying to mass load the periphery to get the Q up.
[17:28:47] <jepler> why does emc's install_lib remove lib/*.a ?
[17:31:36] <fenn> are the .a's even used by anything?
[17:34:01] <jepler> fenn: axis wants several of them in order to build
[17:43:07] <fenn> what's the advantage of .a vs .so?
[17:43:37] <SWPadnos> .a is a library that gets linked into an app, .so is a shared library that can be used by multiple programs
[17:43:52] <fenn> i know that, but, why not just do .so for everything
[17:43:55] <jepler> emc builds a .a only for several of the libs
[17:44:52] <SWPadnos> oh - well that's a good question. I guess it avoids possible issues with library versions and the like (plus gives you a standalone executable)
[17:46:12] <fenn> jepler: i would guess that since they are only used in the build process that they're deleted to save space in the .deb
[17:46:52] <jepler> fenn: not only are they *not* copied to somewhere the deb will find them, they're actually removed from the build tree
[17:49:05] <fenn> so, shouldnt these be .so's so you're sure that axis is using the same library as emc?
[17:55:57] <fenn> bleh past my bedtime.. gnight
[19:28:58] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/ (5 files in 2 dirs): build emc2-dev package. this includes headers and .a libraries. It is sufficient to rebuild AXIS, and probably other front-ends.
[20:02:54] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/debian/ (compat emc2-dev.files emc2.files): needed in order to build -dev package
[20:08:23] <Jacky^> http://digilander.libero.it/jackydgl0/irctheme.jpg
[20:08:27] <Jacky^> :P
[20:12:48] <Jacky^> does anyone want a background image for the terminal/Irssi ?
[20:13:22] <jepler> I usually go with a solid color
[20:13:33] <jepler> interesting image though
[20:13:38] <Jacky^> haha
[20:13:43] <Jacky^> http://digilander.libero.it/jackydgl0/irctema.jpg
[20:14:06] <jepler> is that just an "earth at night" image, or did you generate it from the frappr data?
[20:14:12] <Jacky^> download it just for $ 10 :>
[20:14:20] <Jacky^> nope ..
[20:14:52] <Jymmm> $10 for what?
[20:15:00] <SWPadnos> it
[20:15:01] <Jacky^> I started from a sat image map
[20:15:15] <Jacky^> Jymmm: the royalty
[20:15:27] <Jacky^> hahaha
[20:15:32] <Jymmm> Jacky^ Ha!
[20:15:37] <Jacky^> :D
[20:15:52] <Jacky^> let me count how much peoples are around ..
[20:15:55] <Jymmm> Jacky^ we should charge you! You aint no US Citizen! And I know exactly where that image came from!
[20:15:55] <Jacky^> hahaha
[20:16:19] <Jacky^> I jyst seen few peoples connected when i was painting it
[20:16:24] <Jacky^> :(
[20:16:25] <Jymmm> jepler you want the 'earth at night' image?
[20:16:37] <Jymmm> jepler 34MB
[20:17:04] <SWPadnos> han - send him the 2G one ;)
[20:17:27] <Jymmm> SWPadnos it's 2.3GB (for real)
[20:17:29] <SWPadnos> nah, that is
[20:17:52] <SWPadnos> yeah - the blue marble ones are cool, plus the National Geographic might map
[20:17:55] <SWPadnos> night
[20:18:20] <SWPadnos> we got that one in an issue of the magazine - it's a pretty cool print
[20:19:05] <jepler> Jymmm: thanks, but no.
[20:20:38] <Jymmm> oooops, I lied... the large one is 39.6MB
[20:20:55] <SWPadnos> bluemarble, baby
[20:21:01] <Jacky^> lol
[20:21:10] <Jymmm> Jacky^ here's another one you can steal you thief! =) http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov//1438/earth_lights_lrg.jpg
[20:21:53] <Jacky^> wow ! cool
[20:36:24] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ playng around gimp :P
[20:44:20] <k4ts> hello
[20:44:27] <k4ts> hi les_w
[20:44:29] <Jacky^> evening madame
[20:44:42] <Jacky^> les_w: is working :D
[20:44:57] <k4ts> bonsoir a tout le monde
[20:45:05] <Jacky^> uhm
[20:47:37] <k4ts> Jacky^:Obiettivo TAMRON 70-300 f/4-5.6 LD Macro 1:2 110 euro
[20:48:04] <Jacky^> is it good ?
[20:48:31] <k4ts> www.solonikon.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13695
[20:49:14] <k4ts> http://www.solonikon.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13695
[20:49:56] <k4ts> alex_joni: help me?
[20:50:36] <Jacky^> alex_joni: is working too ..
[20:50:39] <Jacky^> :)
[20:50:44] <k4ts> Jacky^: I dont' no
[20:50:52] <k4ts> non so?
[20:50:56] <Jacky^> k4ts: did you deleted windows ?
[20:51:22] <k4ts> what windows?
[20:51:51] <Jacky^> take a look at what happen who don't do it http://digilander.libero.it/jackydgl0/penguinslap.gif
[20:52:00] <Jacky^> :D
[20:52:41] <k4ts> Jacky^: you no'in mes?
[20:52:46] <k4ts> msn
[20:52:50] <Jacky^> k4ts: you should compare the price of new before ..
[20:53:02] <Jacky^> right ?
[20:53:37] <k4ts> juste bye
[20:54:19] <Jacky^> did you search on costameno.it ?
[21:30:30] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
[21:30:30] <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
[21:31:07] <Jacky^> hi ChanServ :)
[22:46:44] <k4ts> night all
[23:34:35] <bill20r3> yay, my motors are here.