#emc | Logs for 2006-01-27

[00:30:12] <Jacky^> night
[00:30:21] <Jacky^> Jacky^ is now known as Jacky^afk
[02:22:22] <fenn> * fenn is trying to figure out which HF catalog he saw the cheap bandsaw in
[03:53:44] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 buys steppers
[03:54:00] <cradek> making your first machine?
[03:59:29] <bill2or3> planning it anyway
[03:59:41] <bill2or3> there were some cheeeeeep steppers on ebay, so I grabbed 3
[04:00:43] <bill2or3> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7584171720
[04:06:01] <fenn> flash in an ebay auction is just going too far
[04:09:06] <bill2or3> flash anywhere..
[04:11:27] <cradek> too bad they're unipolar... do you know how many wires they have?
[04:12:34] <cradek> some unipolar motors have only 5 wires (instead of 6 or 8) which makes them unusable with bipolar drivers
[04:12:34] <cradek> oh it says 8 leads, duh
[04:12:55] <cradek> so forget I said anything
[04:13:57] <cradek> 282 oz-in is nice and strong for a small mill
[04:15:49] <bill2or3> yeah, should handle whatever I need.
[04:16:10] <bill2or3> I think I'll do a small dremel-engraver first, just to get the hang of things, then convert my micro-mill
[04:16:20] <cradek> you haven't bought the motors yet? I still have a BIN button
[04:16:30] <bill2or3> I did, he has lots
[04:16:37] <cradek> hmm, it's tempting to push it
[04:16:49] <bill2or3> <button> cliiickk meeeeee
[04:17:25] <jepler> cradek: will your boards do 3A?
[04:17:28] <cradek> for some reason I had it in my head that it was $39 for three motors
[04:17:32] <cradek> hi jeff
[04:17:41] <bill2or3> I'd have bought more if it was
[04:18:04] <cradek> jepler: I'm not sure...
[04:18:45] <cradek> yes 46V 4A
[04:18:58] <cradek> looks like it would be a *great* match
[04:19:01] <jepler> "2A each channel"
[04:19:16] <bill2or3> what driver boards do you have?
[04:19:17] <cradek> yeah you put them in parallel I think
[04:19:20] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 needs some
[04:19:32] <cradek> bill2or3: deluxe homemade L298
[04:19:44] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc
[04:20:22] <cradek> hmm, some of this page is out of date...
[04:20:23] <jepler> I wonder if this L298-based board is any good. http://www.robotobjects.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=67
[04:20:50] <jepler> cradek: you need a photo of that new power supply
[04:20:54] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 looks
[04:21:13] <cradek> jepler: it sure is cool, isn't it
[04:21:49] <cradek> jepler: I don't see the L297 on that board...?
[04:21:59] <jepler> cradek: no, I'm trying to figure out what the inputs are ...
[04:23:22] <cradek> maybe it's the logic inputs to the 298
[04:23:36] <cradek> it could be useful that way if you didn't need to chop
[04:23:43] <cradek> a simple H bridge
[04:23:45] <fenn> what's the 5v regulator for?
[04:24:09] <cradek> good question
[04:24:10] <jepler> cradek: I think that's right
[04:24:24] <jepler> Is there a logic section to the L298 that needs +5v
[04:24:24] <jepler> ?
[04:24:37] <cradek> I don't think so
[04:24:46] <jepler> PDF page 6 shows that the inputs are "I1", "I2" and "Enable"
[04:25:21] <fenn> i'm thinking that board is for driving brushed dc motors
[04:25:47] <jepler> er, that's 3 inputs per bridge, 6 inputs total
[04:26:20] <jepler> probably not very useful for running steppers
[04:26:33] <jepler> 'night all
[04:28:01] <fenn> boy that seems pretty expensive for a solder-it yourself kit
[04:47:58] <bill2or3> neat clocks cradek...
[04:48:22] <bill2or3> my boss @ work just finished a nixie clock (from a kit..)
[04:50:40] <SWP_Away> there were a couple of fairly large lots of nixie tubes on eBay recently (may still be)
[04:50:54] <SWP_Away> one of them was 72 tubes for around $20
[05:11:40] <bill2or3> wow, cheap
[05:11:59] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 looks
[05:13:02] <bill2or3> 12 tubs for $25
[05:13:09] <bill2or3> tubes, too
[05:16:33] <Jymmm> as in heater and grid type tubes?
[05:17:21] <SWP_Away> yep
[05:19:07] <SWP_Away> oops - it's $80: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7584289667
[05:19:36] <SWP_Away> I think there was s different auction for less though
[05:19:43] <SWP_Away> less $, not less tubes
[05:22:10] <SWP_Away> and here are some real ones - not that segmented crap: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7583494459
[05:28:36] <Jymmm> I haven't touched a tube in decades
[05:28:49] <SWP_Away> just my CRTs ;)
[05:29:18] <Jymmm> that's not a tube silly
[05:29:33] <SWP_Away> I actually have 3 tubes in one device
[05:29:49] <SWP_Away> (a 3-CRT RPTV :) )
[05:31:28] <Jymmm> lies! all lies!
[05:31:58] <SWP_Away> ah well - back to popping balloons with 0603 resistors
[05:32:12] <Jymmm> better than killing viruses all day
[05:32:25] <SWP_Away> I've been incubating viruses all day, actually
[05:32:35] <SWP_Away> damned cold
[05:32:57] <Jymmm> this is a in-the-wild virus, nasty lil fucker
[05:33:22] <SWP_Away> what does it do?
[05:34:22] <Jymmm> Via XSS exploit, exectues itself (somehow), parload unknown, but hides itself very very well.
[05:34:51] <SWP_Away> bummer
[05:42:05] <A-L-P-H-A> SWP_Away, stop pretending to be here.. go back to away. :P :)
[13:16:32] <Jymmm> Jymmm has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home: www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller | Skype WiFi PHone http://tools.netgear.com/skype/
[13:16:56] <Jacky^afk> hi Jymmm
[13:17:03] <Jymmm> morning Jacky^afk
[13:17:03] <Jacky^afk> Jacky^afk is now known as Jacky^
[13:17:36] <Jacky^> I bought a Skydapter .. have to try it yet :)
[13:17:50] <Jymmm> ah, cool.
[13:18:03] <Jymmm> This one works on ANY WiFi connection
[13:18:07] <Jacky^> it can use a tradictional cordless phone
[13:18:21] <Jacky^> nice
[13:56:05] <k4ts> hello
[14:10:01] <Jacky^> mmm
[15:17:21] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl: (log message trimmed)
[15:17:21] <CIA-17> * Make the Escape key correspond to the "cancel"-type action, and the Enter key correspond to the "perform"-type action in most cases (When the "perform"-type action is not safe, Enter does nothing)
[15:17:21] <CIA-17> * Display the button which is activated by "Enter" distinctive
[15:17:21] <CIA-17> * Make the window manager close function behave like Escape
[15:17:21] <CIA-17> * Place keyboard focus on the first item
[15:17:24] <CIA-17> * Disable some buttons when no listbox item is selected yet
[15:17:26] <CIA-17> * Make the description area keyboard scrollable
[15:37:38] <Jacky^> alex_joni: is Puppy available as Live cd ?
[15:38:08] <Jacky^> what you used to build it ?
[15:38:25] <CIA-17> 03rayhenry * 10emc2/configs/demo_step_cl/demo_step_cl.ini: added STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 1.4
[15:43:53] <alex_joni> Jacky^: it's all in the wiki
[15:44:16] <Jacky^> ty, looking ..
[15:59:00] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[16:22:13] <jepler> cradek: this notice that my emc-commits message is being held says that it came from my 'jepler@sourceforge' address. Maybe you have to add that to a whitelist or something?
[16:22:37] <jepler> cradek: (this is for my commit of setupconfig.tcl)
[16:27:44] <cradek> jepler: I think the fix is for you to subscribe to -commit as @sourceforge and then point @sourceforge to your real email
[16:28:43] <cradek> (you've probably already done the latter)
[16:28:49] <jepler> yes
[16:29:53] <cradek> I ok'd your commit message
[16:30:05] <cradek> but I don't see any way to fix the problem other than you changing your subscription.
[16:30:42] <cradek> I can do that for you - do you want me to?
[16:31:37] <jepler> no, i'll do it
[16:39:54] <jepler> maybe that's solved now
[16:45:06] <cradek> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-commit
[16:45:24] <cradek> I added a warning on this page to help the next guy do it right the first time
[16:45:37] <cradek> because I had the same problem when I started committing
[17:24:15] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/ (emc2-wizard.gif tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl):
[17:24:15] <CIA-17> add left-hand-side image to setupconfig screens (emc2-wizard.gif)
[17:24:15] <CIA-17> tweak layout to show configs and descriptions side by side
[17:24:15] <CIA-17> keep the window size the same all the time
[17:24:15] <CIA-17> add the ability to disable buttons when text has not been entered
[17:34:02] <cradek> jepler: that's looking great
[17:35:22] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl:
[17:35:23] <CIA-17> enforce character set for new config names
[17:35:23] <CIA-17> fix for earlier "require nonempty entry" change
[17:35:23] <CIA-17> fix the new config name when you back up to that step (earlier, it would be
[17:35:23] <CIA-17> repeated)
[18:42:10] <bill20r3> double awesome --> http://www.taomc.com/
[18:49:21] <rayh> You go, jepler:
[19:06:07] <jepler> rayh: you like the changes?
[19:06:16] <jepler> I'm pleased to hear it.
[19:06:20] <rayh> You bet.
[19:10:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
[19:17:29] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl:
[19:17:29] <CIA-17> make the logo stick to all the pages by creating it outside of $top, not by recreating it each time
[19:17:29] <CIA-17> make the window a bit wider so that the scrollbar for descriptions shows
[19:23:17] <bill20r3> anyone ever used a flatbed scanner as a base for a small cnc engraving machine?
[19:23:23] <bill20r3> * bill20r3 wonders if that'd work.
[19:27:04] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl:
[19:27:04] <CIA-17> buttons look better when they're uniformly sized. The added code makes them
[19:27:04] <CIA-17> 8 average-character-widths wide, unless the label won't fit in that much space.
[19:29:38] <cradek> jepler: I bet the edit/backup/restore/delete/new/cancel screen is going to suck in German
[19:29:56] <jepler> cradek: alex points out that axis 1.1.1 doesn't work on emc2 HEAD due to my rs274.o -> librs274.a change in emc2
[19:30:06] <cradek> uh-oh
[19:30:16] <alex_joni> and any older axis releases aswell
[19:30:31] <alex_joni> jepler: is there any way to build them both?
[19:30:41] <jepler> alex_joni: true, though I don't have sympathy for anybody who's upgrading emc2 but won't upgrade to the latest release of axis
[19:30:42] <alex_joni> rs274.o and librs274.a
[19:30:55] <jepler> alex_joni: sure could build both
[19:31:11] <alex_joni> at least for a while.. but that's up to you I guess
[19:31:13] <cradek> time marches inexorably forward
[19:33:03] <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/Makefile: build rs274.o again so that axis 1.1.1 will compile against emc2 HEAD
[19:33:45] <cradek> we could also make another release from the maintenance branch.
[19:34:08] <alex_joni> cradek: you still have a 1.1 release (I think that's the latest stable?)
[19:34:11] <alex_joni> or is it 1.1.1 ?
[19:34:20] <jepler> alex_joni: 1.1.1 is the latest stable version
[19:35:03] <alex_joni> ok ;)
[19:35:09] <alex_joni> so we need to have that working ..
[19:35:23] <jepler> cradek: and do what in 1.1.2? detect librs274.a vs rs274.o and work either way? Or use librs274.a exclusively when building for emc2?
[19:35:37] <alex_joni> use librs274.a
[19:36:01] <cradek> I don't know - either
[19:36:25] <cradek> probably alex is right
[19:36:35] <cradek> I don't care if it doesn't work with older emc2 versions
[19:39:30] <rayh> "inexorably" I love pretty words.
[19:40:07] <Jacky^> hi rayh
[19:40:29] <rayh> Hi Jacky^
[19:44:02] <cradek> any word with an x in it rolls beautifully off the tongue
[19:44:51] <SWPadnos> that's inexplicably true
[19:45:20] <jepler> alex_joni: http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/axis/setup.py.diff?r1=;r2=
[19:45:24] <jepler> axis axis axis
[19:45:45] <jepler> demultiplex
[19:45:51] <SWPadnos> haxxorz
[19:48:41] <cradek> suxxorz
[19:49:06] <SWPadnos> XXX
[19:49:37] <SWPadnos> (or, as Terry Pratchett spells it, "Ecks Ecks Ecks")
[19:50:11] <alex_joni> eggs
[20:20:44] <alex_joni> bonne soir
[20:20:58] <Jacky^> hello
[20:21:02] <dmessier> salut all
[20:21:12] <alex_joni> ca va?
[20:21:15] <Jacky^> telefunken
[20:21:35] <Jacky^> yesterday has joioned telefunken ..
[20:21:36] <dmessier> ehhh.... pas
[20:22:12] <alex_joni> pas? mais .. pour quois?
[20:22:14] <Jacky^> alex_joni: ho it seem to you this : http://ibuild.livecd.net/
[20:22:38] <Jacky^> to build a customized distro with RT kernel
[20:22:56] <Jacky^> wonder if is it possible..
[20:22:59] <dmessier> le travaille... de la marde
[20:23:00] <alex_joni> if I would build a custom live distro I'd look at kubuntu
[20:23:30] <alex_joni> oh, travaille.. ici il est le weekend ;)
[20:23:58] <alex_joni> vendredi soir ..
[20:24:04] <Jacky^> uhm, I would have a Debian distro
[20:24:09] <dmessier> ici aussi... im carrying it come....
[20:24:12] <alex_joni> ubuntu is deb based
[20:24:29] <dmessier> home.. sorry
[20:24:31] <Jacky^> but isnt Debian :(
[20:24:36] <SWPadnos> and it has a brown background - very important
[20:24:40] <SWPadnos> it is debian based
[20:24:42] <alex_joni> yeah :D
[20:25:02] <Jacky^> I know it is based
[20:25:12] <Jacky^> as knoppix or morphix too
[20:25:17] <SWPadnos> most packages from Debian install unmodified on Ubuntu
[20:25:17] <Jacky^> mephis
[20:25:22] <SWPadnos> mepis
[20:25:29] <SWPadnos> (I like that one as well)
[20:25:32] <Jacky^> sorry, yeah
[20:25:44] <Jacky^> I would like a pure Sarge
[20:26:13] <SWPadnos> pure sarge doesn't have RT :)
[20:26:17] <alex_joni> nor live
[20:26:30] <SWPadnos> nor emc
[20:26:43] <Jacky^> why ? ubuntu have it ?
[20:26:53] <SWPadnos> no, but it's not pure ;)
[20:26:56] <alex_joni> well.. it's got a live
[20:27:01] <alex_joni> and RT
[20:27:06] <rayh> I have a pure sarge here as my net server.
[20:27:28] <alex_joni> yeah, sarge is ok for servers
[20:28:07] <alex_joni> more than ok
[20:28:21] <Jacky^> I found its ok for wk too
[20:28:46] <Jacky^> in some case ppeoples use to mix sarge-sid
[20:28:55] <Jacky^> setting pin priority
[20:29:06] <Jacky^> I never tried to mix them ..
[20:29:23] <Jacky^> I guess its not right at all
[20:29:30] <rayh> I did once. DISASTER!
[20:29:40] <Jacky^> yeah ..
[20:29:47] <rayh> You've really got to know what you are doing.
[20:30:43] <SWPadnos> which isn't a requirement we want for potential emc users
[20:32:20] <rayh> No we want to meet the "Aunt Tillie" test.
[20:32:23] <Jacky^> im looking at this howto http://wiki.livecd.net/livecd/IbuildHowto
[20:32:35] <Jacky^> it seems neat enough
[20:32:47] <Jacky^> if not outdated
[20:33:00] <cradek> rayh: where is the list of aunt tillie criteria?
[20:33:06] <cradek> rayh: (I'm serious)
[20:33:31] <rayh> I saw one the other day that looked good but used a 2.2 kernel and rt09j still
[20:33:38] <SWPadnos> I don't think there is one - it's like the "War on Terror"
[20:33:47] <cradek> rayh: can she follow instructions that say what to click on? can she type commands at the shell?
[20:33:48] <SWPadnos> (ie, you can't tell when you're done)
[20:33:52] <rayh> Um. It was a comment from Eric Raymond a
[20:34:12] <rayh> while ago know.
[20:34:17] <rayh> * rayh looks back.
[20:34:22] <cradek> I understand it was probably just in passing
[20:34:43] <cradek> but it might be helpful to talk about what it means
[20:35:14] <SWPadnos> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html
[20:36:13] <SWPadnos> hmmm: http://openusability.org/
[20:36:18] <cradek> in all seriousness I'm working on some stuff where I want to know "how easy is easy enough"
[20:36:48] <Jacky^> computer arent easy
[20:37:12] <rayh> Big batch on the way.
[20:37:17] <Jacky^> who think all can be simple for all its wrong
[20:37:17] <rayh> In 2003, there is a deep ambivalence in our attitude — a tension between elitism and missionary populism. We want to reach and convert the 92% of the world for whom computing means games and multimedia and glossy GUI interfaces and (at their most technical) light email and word processing and spreadsheets. We are spending major effort on projects like GNOME and KDE designed to give Unix a pretty face. But we are still elitists at heart, deeply
[20:37:17] <rayh> reluctant and in many cases unable to identify with or listen to the needs of the Aunt Tillies of the world.
[20:37:43] <rayh> To non-technical end users, the software we build tends to be either bewildering and incomprehensible, or clumsy and condescending, or both at the same time. Even when we try to do the user-friendliness thing as earnestly as possible, we're woefully inconsistent at it. Many of the attitudes and reflexes we've inherited from old-school Unix are just wrong for the job. Even when we want to listen to and help Aunt Tillie, we don't know how — we
[20:37:44] <rayh> project our categories and our concerns onto her and give her ‘solutions’ that she finds as daunting as her problems.
[20:38:51] <rayh> Our greatest challenge as a culture is whether we can outgrow the assumptions that have served us so well — whether we can acknowledge, not merely intellectually but in the sinew of daily practice, that the Macintosh people have a point. Their point is made in more general, less Mac-specific way in The Inmates Are Running the Asylum [Cooper], an insightful and argumentative book about what its author calls interaction design that (despite
[20:38:51] <rayh> occasional crotchets) contains a good deal of hard truth that every Unix programmer ought to know.
[20:40:00] <rayh> copied from E Raymond http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch20s05.html
[20:40:48] <jepler> I think he means 'know your audience'
[20:40:53] <cradek> ok, I understand where it came from now, bu tthat doesn't help me answer my question. I guess maybe it's possible that it's unanswerable.
[20:41:45] <rayh> The boundaries between are fuzzy in the kind of thing we do.
[20:41:48] <cradek> free software folks often don't have the luxury of knowing their audience. The audience we see (talking about us emc folks now) is the audience who pops into irc.
[20:42:11] <cradek> I'm sure jon elson sees a different audience
[20:42:20] <cradek> ray might see yet another one
[20:42:44] <jepler> ESR also wrote that free software is successful because people write software that scratches their own itches, not the itches of hypothetical dense or naive users.
[20:43:15] <jepler> it depends what the goal of EMC is, whether an "Aunt Tillie Test" is relevant
[20:43:59] <rayh> Raymond's point of origin with the tillie test was a Mac conference he attended.
[20:44:12] <SWPadnos> somebody who knows what a machine is, and how to use it (G-code, etc) shouldn't have to figure out what was going through the emc developer's mind when the GUI was written
[20:44:23] <rayh> He said he was listening to programmers who were design oriented
[20:44:39] <SWPadnos> the UI shouldn't be a barrier to use of the machine, it should be an "enabler"
[20:44:55] <SWPadnos> (what that means varies from user to user though)
[20:46:04] <rayh> I know a lot of "job shop floor" guys who would really like emc to look like an old fanuc.
[20:46:12] <jepler> I think that we had an aunt-tillie-like point of view when designing axis. We wanted it to look like other desktop applications, and allow someone using it to make good guesses at what each element of the screen does (with text, tooltips, etc)
[20:46:28] <jepler> I've never seen these "old fauncs" you speak of
[20:46:30] <rayh> can you say curses and ncurses
[20:46:45] <SWPadnos> uhh - keystick?
[20:46:50] <SWPadnos> did I pronounce that right?
[20:46:55] <jepler> but just as making an audio playing program look like an old AM radio is a bad idea, making modern software look like an old DRO is probably a bad idea
[20:46:59] <rayh> yup
[20:47:52] <rayh> IMO our "operator" advantage is gained by having many different types of displays.
[20:48:07] <cradek> ten years ago at work I would sometimes run into people who had never used a computer before (we were selling them their first one.) Today, I don't see that anymore. Everyone brings some knowledge about GUIs with them today.
[20:48:20] <djb_rh> I'd like a display that is touchscreen friendly
[20:48:33] <SWPadnos> ding ding!
[20:48:48] <SWPadnos> axis is pretty good, once cradek straightens you out ;)
[20:48:49] <cradek> one of my goals in AXIS was to use that knowledge, however small, to allow someone to walk up to AXIS and use it.
[20:48:53] <alex_joni> djb_rh: maybe if you & SWP bug cradek enough he'll make axis ok ;)
[20:49:01] <rayh> I watch in wonder at an operator that can run a Mazak.
[20:49:48] <cradek> rayh: I bet your Mazak operator certainly comes with a different knowledge base. Is it possible he has never used a modern computer?
[20:50:19] <rayh> phone brb
[20:50:33] <alex_joni> cradek: I often watch machine operators that have no clue what they are doing..
[20:50:37] <alex_joni> they are using patterns
[20:50:55] <SWPadnos> "using a modern computer" means different things to different people as well
[20:51:02] <alex_joni> they just KNOW they need to push some certain combination of keys/buttons to make it work
[20:51:33] <SWPadnos> I know a good hardware designer that made his first computer in High School (TRS-80 compatible, even), but didn't know that software was installed on his Windows 98 machine because there was no icon on the desktop
[20:51:35] <cradek> SWPadnos: I'm talking about how to use a mouse, what scrollbars do, how the File menu works, etc.
[20:51:57] <SWPadnos> ... where to look for new programs ...
[20:52:06] <djb_rh> scrollbars are hard on a touchscreen
[20:52:09] <djb_rh> they're usually too small
[20:52:17] <SWPadnos> you need a drag interface, no matter what
[20:52:35] <SWPadnos> there are up and down buttons though, so tapping can also work
[20:53:32] <djb_rh> I need a talented programmer to write me a touchscreen alarm clock program
[20:53:38] <djb_rh> but that's probably off topic. :)
[20:53:47] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:54:04] <djb_rh> well, if i put a mini-mill in the bedroom... ;)
[20:54:05] <SWPadnos> (not that that usually matters here)
[20:55:02] <djb_rh> shit, I think I finally got power to my big mill yesterday
[20:55:10] <djb_rh> I gotta turn it on and see if it does anything
[20:55:32] <SWPadnos> well - what are you doing here then? ;)
[20:55:42] <djb_rh> waiting for a fscking phone call
[20:55:44] <djb_rh> *sigh*
[20:56:01] <djb_rh> one of these days I'm gonna have everythign converted to VOIP and have an 802.11 phone
[20:56:02] <alex_joni> *ring*
[20:56:05] <djb_rh> one of these days
[20:56:14] <alex_joni> *ring-ring*
[20:57:58] <djb_rh> where is Jymmm when I need to give him crap?
[20:58:20] <djb_rh> "I've never seen a PC BIOS that couldn't be reset using a jumper or by removing a battery"
[20:58:21] <djb_rh> hah!
[20:58:32] <djb_rh> this system has FLASH for BIOS
[20:58:40] <alex_joni> they all do
[20:58:47] <alex_joni> but the passwd isn't in flash
[20:59:07] <djb_rh> everything on these two SBCs I have is
[20:59:20] <djb_rh> I was able to crack the passwd, but I could *not* reset it
[20:59:31] <djb_rh> well, I could once I cracked it, but you know what I mean
[21:00:13] <djb_rh> and that's not entirely off topic, since they are gonna be BDI machines
[21:04:43] <alex_joni> Award?
[21:05:34] <SWPadnos> it makes sense for an embeded / industrial board to store the password in a non-volatile place. that prevents unauhorized people from making changes (as you noticed)
[21:05:52] <SWPadnos> if anyone can just reset CMOS and change the password, it's not really that useful
[21:06:06] <dmessier> did you pull the bios chip out of socket and cycle...??
[21:15:40] <SWPadnos> that doesn't help with flash
[21:16:22] <alex_joni> sure, you just need to expose it to UV, get some static (about 10-20kV should do it) across the pins
[21:16:28] <alex_joni> and it should be good as new :D
[21:16:47] <SWPadnos> alternatively, you could put it in a burner, and re-flash it ;)
[21:16:59] <djb_rh> I went through all this with Jymmm...I tried every trick in the book. These SBCs are different beasts in some ways as they have disk-on-chip ports, solder pads for additional FLASH chips to just solder on, etc, etc
[21:17:07] <SWPadnos> X-rays help, BTW - the plastic is UV opaque
[21:17:22] <djb_rh> fortunately it wasn't hard to make a FreeDOS boot floppy, put a crack util on it, boot, and go
[21:17:39] <djb_rh> in fact, once you have the image laying around, that's easier than opening a case to move a jumper
[21:17:41] <alex_joni> djb_rh: what kind of BIOS?
[21:17:46] <djb_rh> Award
[21:17:56] <alex_joni> did you try common passphrases?
[21:18:02] <djb_rh> tried them all
[21:18:12] <alex_joni> I think I remember some for Award, from way back..
[21:18:13] <rayh> back -- we done with tillie for now?
[21:18:21] <alex_joni> she's knitting..
[21:18:23] <SWPadnos> I wonder what NewEgg means by "Refurbished" when talking about a CPU ...
[21:18:25] <djb_rh> yeah, I found some pretty big lists of them
[21:18:36] <djb_rh> SWPadnos: taped the box back closed
[21:18:38] <djb_rh> :)
[21:18:48] <SWPadnos> heh, and no thermal putty on the cooler
[21:18:50] <cradek> rayh: I decided there's no real answer for my question.
[21:19:05] <alex_joni> * alex_joni whispers..
[21:19:14] <alex_joni> actually there is no real Aunt tillie..
[21:19:30] <cradek> I know
[21:19:38] <alex_joni> cradek: joke aside, what were you thinking of?
[21:19:43] <SWPadnos> cradek, I think it's a mindset. look at the task at hand, and try to think about how you would try to accomplish it, knowing nothing about the software (but knowing what you're trying to do)
[21:19:47] <rayh> I'm of the opinion that over time we will draw some lines that make sense to us and to most of our users.
[21:20:11] <djb_rh> you guys just talking about usability issues in general?
[21:20:42] <cradek> well I was asking about one specific thing
[21:20:48] <SWPadnos> you can't please everyone - some machine operator from the '80s will think "I'm trying to load a program - where's the 'program' menu?"
[21:20:54] <djb_rh> Nat Friedman had a pretty good article in a recent _Linux Journal_ about software usability testing
[21:21:04] <SWPadnos> when it's been the "file" menu for the last 10-15 years
[21:21:05] <djb_rh> the Novell guys are doing some work in that area
[21:21:16] <cradek> say I have a part of emc that I'm working on. I want to determine whether it passes the Tillie test. What do I do to find out?
[21:21:37] <djb_rh> simple but effective stuff like using a webcam to watch users while recording what is going on the screen
[21:21:39] <SWPadnos> there are a few things at the bottom of the ESR page I linked to
[21:21:49] <SWPadnos> 1) make sure there are no dead ends
[21:21:57] <cradek> if that's code-speak for "make it as dumb as possible because users are morons" then I'm not interested
[21:22:00] <alex_joni> cradek: get some really newbie users to try it
[21:22:00] <SWPadnos> (not as applicable in a non-wizard app)
[21:22:03] <cradek> because I don't think that's true (or good practice)
[21:22:06] <SWPadnos> no, it's not
[21:22:44] <djb_rh> cradek: not at all...just helps you identify common stumbling points
[21:23:06] <SWPadnos> What does my software look like to a non-technical user who has never seen it before?
[21:23:07] <SWPadnos> Is there any screen in my GUI that is a dead end, without giving guidance further into the system?
[21:23:09] <SWPadnos> The requirement that end-users read documentation is a sign of UI design failure. Is my UI design a failure?
[21:23:11] <SWPadnos> For technical tasks that do require documentation, do they fail to mention critical defaults?
[21:23:12] <SWPadnos> Does my project welcome and respond to usability feedback from non-expert users?
[21:23:13] <rayh> "no dead ends" sounds reasonable to me.
[21:23:14] <SWPadnos> And, most importantly of all...do I allow my users the precious luxury of ignorance?
[21:23:15] <SWPadnos> from ESR
[21:23:31] <cradek> so maybe he assumes the same things I do
[21:23:33] <SWPadnos> * Can you gracefully and easily duplicate your tools and configuration for a similar installation? Is it documented? (RedHat and CUPS is no help with this, either, most of the print-drivers wend their way from the foomatic and other tools into the CUPS setups without a lot of hint of how it works.) [For cups, the answer is "you can duplicate it easily, but it's a *secret*"! Every...
[21:23:35] <SWPadnos> * Are there settings you can do from the command line or hand-editing config files that cannot be done from the GUI? Are they documented anywhere? Does using the GUI erase these settings? (The answer for CUPS is "Yes, you can flush all sorts of hand-edited things this way!". This was an incredible problem for NeXT stations and remains a big freeware GUI problem, although most try harder...
[21:23:36] <SWPadnos> And here are some more design rules, from Nico Kadel-Garcia:
[21:23:38] <SWPadnos> ...configuration should be built and recompiled from the source tarball! What are you, a n00b?]
[21:23:40] <SWPadnos> * Is installing this toolset likely to replace or break something already in place (such as LPD based printing packages)? If so, explain how to gracefully do the transition.
[21:23:41] <SWPadnos> ...to address this. Webmin is an excellent example of how to do it right in most cases!)
[21:23:43] <SWPadnos> * Are all your important features mentioned? The automatic flat text->Postscript conversion is one such feature, and despite its presence in the tarball tools and default use the CUPS claim it's not theirs and not their problem.
[21:23:49] <rayh> You ever started up a package and got shunted someplace you had no idea how to get back.
[21:23:57] <SWPadnos> obviously, this was from a CUPS discussion ;)
[21:24:09] <SWPadnos> yes - emc and the config manager ;)
[21:24:21] <rayh> I know I'm there when I right click on the desktop and select run command xkill
[21:25:22] <rayh> I've often thought of putting an xkill icon on my desktop only I wouldn't know how to get to it.
[21:25:52] <SWPadnos> heh "bind crtl-alt-rightmouse xkill" (or something like that)
[21:27:32] <SWPadnos> so cradek - did that first bunch of guidelines make sense? (the second was pretty CUPS-specific)
[21:33:44] <rayh> IMO the larger a pool of successful users we have the better.
[21:33:59] <SWPadnos> and the smaller the pool of unsiccessful users
[21:35:02] <rayh> Yes. I got a call from a fellow's wife. Right up front she said he is a school dropout.
[21:35:10] <rayh> I asked I
[21:35:12] <rayh> q
[21:35:22] <rayh> she said 60 something
[21:35:41] <rayh> but he's good with tools and likes to build things.
[21:35:54] <rayh> She asked if I'd have the patience to help.
[21:35:59] <rayh> I said sure.
[21:36:19] <SWPadnos> were you correct? ;)
[21:36:30] <rayh> So she asked him to call -- not knowing that she had set it up.
[21:36:36] <rayh> We got him going.
[21:36:58] <SWPadnos> cool
[21:37:15] <rayh> I don't know quite how you quantify the ability to do what we do.
[21:38:07] <rayh> or just who out be be considered outside the ability ability
[21:38:14] <SWPadnos> one answer (to the usability question) is that you release code that you think wil lbe OK, and then hope that people will tell you if they don't like it, rather than just picking a different program
[21:38:34] <SWPadnos> the more feedback (from actual non-programmer-type users) the better
[21:41:08] <rayh> Exactly. And this irc makes that easier. I remember during both trips to the Mazak, saying to myself, "I'll never get the hang of this HAL stuff."
[21:43:16] <rayh> Mostly it was because I was sitting next to THE guru.
[21:43:23] <SWPadnos> that does help ;)
[21:43:38] <SWPadnos> plus it's kind of like connecting wires
[21:43:47] <SWPadnos> which I gather you've done before
[21:44:23] <rayh> No in fact jmk made the problem worse, No reflections on his abilities.
[21:44:52] <rayh> He was so much faster in getting to solutions that it intimidated me.
[21:45:33] <rayh> He'd whack away at the keyboard for a few and it would do exactly what I thought it ought to.
[21:45:58] <rayh> I'd have to excuse myself and go sit on the pot for a few and think
[21:46:24] <SWPadnos> TMI
[21:46:57] <rayh> It's not that I'm stupid. It's that it is a BIG thing and you have to get your head around all of it at once in order to see how a part of it works.
[21:47:49] <rayh> I nearly cried when he left. I was that dependent.
[21:47:52] <SWPadnos> yeah. there's a barrier to entry, but it's pretty easy once you "get it"
[21:48:04] <rayh> But as I usually do, I sat down and broke it.
[21:48:18] <SWPadnos> fixing things again is a good way to learn about them
[21:48:23] <rayh> figured out what was wrong. and went on.
[21:48:30] <rayh> Exactly.
[21:48:50] <rayh> Some of the folk who whine about it not being "tillie" compatable enough
[21:48:59] <rayh> are just that whiners.
[21:49:19] <SWPadnos> I don't have any idea who you might be talking about ;)
[21:49:30] <rayh> Others just need coaxing.
[21:56:58] <alex_joni> rayh: think I recall your confrontation with HAL ;)
[21:57:28] <rayh> It nearly hammered me into the ground.
[21:57:42] <alex_joni> heh, but now you should really laugh at HAL
[21:57:49] <alex_joni> it's not that complicated
[21:58:24] <alex_joni> maybe laught at is a bit too much ;)
[21:58:27] <rayh> true at the pin ->sig->pin level but
[21:58:39] <alex_joni> well.. userlevel is enough
[21:58:51] <rayh> at the complete system level it can still be a daunting task.
[21:59:31] <rayh> If I had not encountered the recent error message when I ttried to run demo_step_cl
[22:00:10] <rayh> that said something was missing, I'd have just said o s$%t
[22:01:07] <rayh> Because when you look at the total of the sigs, params, pins, and clp that make it up
[22:01:18] <websys> hello ray
[22:01:31] <rayh> it is a bit thing. And all it does is watch estop and run an intermittent lube.
[22:01:36] <rayh> Hi Bob.
[22:01:43] <rayh> Dave called.
[22:02:04] <websys> quickie question - can EMC be configured to run indiagnostic mode without steppers/servos?
[22:02:21] <alex_joni> what's indiagnostic mode?
[22:02:33] <websys> in test mode
[22:02:34] <alex_joni> there is a sim mode (simulator)
[22:02:38] <rayh> EMC(1), the bdi has a sim mode that does not require rt.
[22:02:46] <websys> ok
[22:02:51] <alex_joni> right, and emc2 has a RT sim mode
[22:02:55] <rayh> I tend to run steppers with the stepper power off.
[22:03:09] <alex_joni> although a non-RT sim mode should be done...
[22:03:20] <websys> just need a way to test my output
[22:03:38] <rayh> Okay. Have you got a BDI box there?
[22:03:47] <cradek> websys: what test are you trying to do?
[22:04:03] <k4ts> hello
[22:04:06] <k4ts> rayh:
[22:04:10] <websys> Dave was saying something about cutter-comp requiring acute angle lead-in - checked the docs and couldn't find anything like that
[22:04:12] <rayh> caio
[22:04:13] <k4ts> hi cradek
[22:04:18] <k4ts> ah ah
[22:04:20] <k4ts> caiooooo
[22:04:37] <Jacky^> caio giulio cesare :)
[22:05:03] <jepler> websys: if you have a bdi4.30 or 4.38, then select the axis front-end in one of the stepper configs and run it with nothing attached to the parallel port.
[22:05:11] <jepler> websys: you can load your file and look at the preview and backplots
[22:05:16] <Jacky^> k4ts: it seems you failed teaching to rayh !
[22:05:42] <websys> thanks - will try that
[22:05:43] <jepler> e.g., mill_inch_freq.ini
[22:06:20] <rayh> websys: Yes. EMC wants to go around the outside of a corner when it starts comp.
[22:06:49] <rayh> Or you can start comp on an arc that is tangent to the line you want it to travel along.
[22:06:50] <websys> ? so the comp documentation is wrong?
[22:07:08] <rayh> darn I wrote a lot of that.
[22:07:13] <websys> lol
[22:07:31] <rayh> Let's say you want to go around a square or rectangle.
[22:07:36] <rayh> Outside.
[22:07:42] <websys> the example given is a line tangent to the starting line
[22:08:13] <rayh> extended beyond the start point.
[22:08:19] <websys> i.e. coincident
[22:09:38] <rayh> EMC thinks it will gouge if it travels into a surface rather than round a corner at the start of the surface.
[22:11:03] <websys> so a line tanto a circle tanto the contour would fail?
[22:11:26] <websys> if I install G41 on the starting line?
[22:12:16] <rayh> Say the tool center was at x-1 y0
[22:12:35] <rayh> and the circle started at x0 y0
[22:12:50] <rayh> It should do the entry move as g41 x0 y0
[22:13:01] <rayh> and go on around the circle.
[22:13:40] <websys> but you can't start on a line?
[22:13:54] <rayh> In the middle of a line, no
[22:14:10] <rayh> You could create an imaginary point there.
[22:14:24] <rayh> go around that point, then drop z and cut.
[22:14:44] <rayh> Or arc into a tangent with the line.
[22:15:00] <rayh> That would look like the burn start moves on a flame table
[22:15:48] <websys> ok - dave should be able to use my standard lead tools then
[22:16:31] <rayh> Good luck. I told dave to make a wiki page on what he discovers that works for him.
[22:20:18] <rayh> Hey Jacky^ How did k4ts fail teaching.
[22:21:14] <Jacky^> she failed teaching IT to you :)
[22:21:30] <Jacky^> dunno how she did :/
[22:21:45] <Jacky^> bad student or bad teacher
[22:21:50] <Jacky^> :D
[22:22:03] <rayh> The problem is my use of caio?
[22:22:09] <Jacky^> yeah :)
[22:22:21] <rayh> That is a good by.
[22:22:22] <k4ts> rayh: pizza
[22:22:26] <k4ts> ih ih
[22:22:33] <rayh> I got that one.
[22:23:39] <Jacky^> could be nice to get the real recipe of the pizza maded in naples
[22:24:02] <Jacky^> may k4ts could found it
[22:24:29] <k4ts> rayh: you write word for me in italinano
[22:25:23] <rayh> um -- not well in italinano
[22:26:09] <SWPadnos> espresso ;)
[22:26:16] <k4ts> rayh: real recipe for picca?
[22:26:30] <k4ts> en englpizza
[22:26:43] <k4ts> pizza
[22:27:03] <rayh> US pizza is nothing like real, as I understand it.
[22:28:11] <Jacky^> rayh: also in IT is the same
[22:28:21] <alex_joni> no pizza is like the one in Napoli ;)
[22:28:29] <Jacky^> the only place where pizza is really good is in naples
[22:29:12] <rayh> I've been to three US pizza parlors that I thought were good.
[22:29:18] <Jacky^> or, others pizeria but with napoletan peoples doing the pizza
[22:29:25] <alex_joni> Jacky^: not really
[22:29:36] <alex_joni> usually they start to make pizza like the customers want it
[22:29:47] <alex_joni> but those customers never tasted an original pizza
[22:29:52] <Jacky^> alex_joni: im 37 years old, I can assure you, I eat pizza everywhere ..
[22:29:54] <alex_joni> with only tomatoes on it ..
[22:29:56] <alex_joni> yummm
[22:30:05] <rayh> Lincoln Nebraska, Eugene/Springfield Oregon, and Napa California
[22:30:17] <Jacky^> i also tried italian restaurant in LA years ago ..
[22:30:20] <Jacky^> nothing to do
[22:30:30] <Jacky^> it seems the place !
[22:30:32] <alex_joni> not those mortadella, salami, mushrooms, eggs, bacon, peperonni stuff
[22:30:34] <Jacky^> dunno why
[22:30:54] <alex_joni> the original pizza, back when there were 2 types available
[22:31:00] <alex_joni> tomato and tomato & cheese
[22:31:10] <alex_joni> for the real wealthy fishermen ;)
[22:31:10] <Jacky^> to be honest before came back here we eat some pizza with k4ts
[22:31:18] <Jacky^> not good at all in the winter
[22:31:39] <Jacky^> but there are a lots of sectrets to get a good pizza
[22:31:50] <Jacky^> its not simple how it seem
[22:31:53] <rayh> IMO making a good pizza is a very difficult thing.
[22:32:09] <Jacky^> my sister do it any week
[22:32:10] <alex_joni> rayh: they even got a university near naples theaching that, iirc
[22:32:14] <Jacky^> since many years
[22:32:29] <rayh> * rayh needs to apprentice
[22:33:04] <Jacky^> some food need to be eat in the place where it born
[22:33:09] <Jacky^> and some drink too
[22:33:25] <rayh> Yep.
[22:33:47] <Jacky^> wine is sensible to when moving from a place to another
[22:33:55] <Jacky^> especially if is 'homemade'
[22:34:01] <rayh> * rayh must get back to refactoring halconfig.
[22:34:29] <k4ts> 500 grammi di farina = flour
[22:34:38] <Jacky^> but theres no problem for the 'died wine' type
[22:34:50] <Jacky^> died wine do NOT change
[22:35:36] <Jacky^> k4ts: ask for a good pizza recipe
[22:35:49] <Jacky^> we'll pubish it in a wiki :P
[22:36:24] <k4ts> 2 cucchiai di olio extra vergine d'oliva =two spoonoil of olive
[22:36:26] <alex_joni> Jacky^: I imagine there are millions of pizza receipes out there
[22:36:32] <rayh> I once asked a hotel keeper in a small town near koln DE if they had a good Rhine wine.
[22:36:43] <alex_joni> huh? good rhine wine?
[22:36:47] <alex_joni> there is no such thing :D
[22:36:48] <k4ts> rayh: write?
[22:36:49] <rayh> exactly
[22:37:04] <Jacky^> alex_joni: sure, but important secret are hidden
[22:37:21] <Jacky^> alex_joni: you should know pizza is closed source :D
[22:37:29] <alex_joni> heh, not necessarely
[22:37:44] <Jacky^> I will discover why it is different in naples !
[22:37:57] <alex_joni> Jacky^: because it started there
[22:38:05] <Jacky^> no ..
[22:38:08] <alex_joni> if I know the history well enough
[22:38:33] <Jacky^> the milk they use are the first secret
[22:38:33] <k4ts> sale = pinch salt
[22:38:39] <Jacky^> for 'mozzarella'
[22:38:55] <Jacky^> water may is another small secret
[22:39:09] <Jacky^> and temperature and others ..
[22:39:10] <alex_joni> actually pizza was first made in greece
[22:39:20] <alex_joni> after that they started selling it in naples
[22:39:21] <Jacky^> probably
[22:39:37] <k4ts> 20 grammi di lievito = yeast
[22:39:52] <Jacky^> k4ts: where youre looking ?
[22:40:11] <k4ts> what?
[22:40:16] <Jacky^> the recipe
[22:40:22] <k4ts> Jacky^: ?
[22:40:31] <k4ts> write
[22:40:33] <k4ts> on
[22:40:41] <Jacky^> on your mind ? :P
[22:40:50] <k4ts> i write on
[22:41:46] <k4ts> k4ts500 grammi di farina = flour [{google:en|it} 500 grammi di farina = farina ]k4ts2 cucchiai di olio extra vergine d'oliva =two spoonoil of olive [{google:en|it} d'oliva supplementare di vergine dei 2 cucchiai di olio = spoonoil due di oliva ]
[22:42:07] <Jacky^> k4ts: thats a basic recipe
[22:42:13] <Jacky^> all knows that
[22:42:29] <Jacky^> you should talk to Don Gennaro
[22:42:38] <Jacky^> U pizzaiolo !
[22:42:50] <Jacky^> to get some more secrets
[22:46:53] <alex_joni> http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/pizzahistory.html
[22:47:50] <Jacky^> neat doc
[22:47:54] <alex_joni> darn, now I'm hungry :D
[22:48:06] <Jacky^> hehe
[22:48:27] <k4ts> alex_joni: also me
[22:48:33] <k4ts> sigh
[22:48:39] <alex_joni> I'll go to bed..
[22:48:45] <Jacky^> k4ts: mee to*
[22:48:49] <Jacky^> ops
[22:48:53] <Jacky^> me too
[22:48:58] <Jacky^> not also me
[22:49:06] <Jacky^> night alex_joni
[22:49:07] <alex_joni> night all
[22:49:08] <k4ts> ok
[22:49:11] <k4ts> sorry
[22:49:14] <k4ts> teacher
[22:49:19] <Jacky^> lol
[22:49:21] <Jacky^> :)
[22:50:51] <rayh> see you
[22:50:57] <rayh> alex
[22:51:05] <rayh> glad you got motors running
[22:53:19] <k4ts> jacky my puzzle
[22:53:52] <Jacky^> is completed ?
[22:54:03] <k4ts> is nuisance
[22:54:06] <cncuser> hidiho
[22:54:10] <Jacky^> hi cncuser !
[22:54:18] <Jacky^> I was waiting you
[22:54:20] <k4ts> ih
[22:54:20] <Jacky^> :)
[22:54:28] <cncuser> hi jacky
[22:54:34] <cncuser> well here i am
[22:54:42] <Jacky^> whats up ?
[22:54:49] <cncuser> lfs :(
[22:54:57] <cncuser> rebuilding puppy from source
[22:55:14] <Jacky^> I was reading this doc: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?Emc_Puppy
[22:55:42] <cncuser> but not now, now im just haning around some more minutes before i hit the iceland
[22:55:49] <Jacky^> wonder why: I've also decided not to apply the NTFS patch described in http: etc ..
[22:56:04] <Jacky^> maybe because ntfs support is experimental ?
[22:56:46] <Jacky^> Im looking to puppy with a great interest too
[22:57:09] <cncuser> Jacky^: shure its experimental. but i dont know why its not includet.
[22:57:30] <Jacky^> I hope it work, anyway
[22:57:45] <cncuser> Jacky^: i the acitve version (like the howto explains) i have the ntfspatch applied
[22:58:10] <cncuser> jacky:you jjust need it for writeacces of filesysstemimages on ntfs filesystems
[22:58:20] <Jacky^> I know
[22:58:23] <cncuser> if dont want to do thatyou dont need it at all\
[22:58:39] <Jacky^> for what I think, many users could use that feature
[22:58:49] <Jacky^> using win xp
[22:59:09] <Jacky^> its not for me
[22:59:18] <cncuser> jacky: shure, thats why puppy has this as default. bescause the target for puppy is windowsuseres
[23:00:00] <SWPadnos> sorry cncuser - I haven't gotten the qemu installation working yet (for fast compilation)
[23:00:01] <Jacky^> yeah .. wonder if there is any issue with ntfs support enabled and RT kernel
[23:00:12] <SWPadnos> maybe I'll burn a puppy iso
[23:01:20] <cncuser> SWPadnos: no problem, im stuck anyways
[23:01:25] <Jacky^> cncuser: you worked on coolcnc too I suppose
[23:01:43] <cncuser> SWPadnos: for puppydev does not allow to build itself.... i need to build it up first
[23:01:51] <Jacky^> what license you used to release the distro as general ?
[23:02:22] <Jacky^> is it re-usable or need to ask for some permission ?
[23:03:10] <cncuser> Jacky^: its gpls, like the stuff includet i assume. but i would not use this for anything as its crap :)
[23:03:11] <Jacky^> Id like to build a cusom distro with RT kernel,emc2 and others robotics tools for my community (Roboitalia)
[23:03:28] <cncuser> Jacky^: id go with the howto
[23:03:55] <Jacky^> cncuser: are you on the forum? http://cooltool.he.fdread.org/cncforum/
[23:04:11] <cncuser> Jacky^: from time to time.. once a week now :)
[23:04:21] <Jacky^> ok, thanks ;)
[23:04:52] <Jacky^> anyway, the howto you refer is that on our wiki ?
[23:05:09] <cncuser> jacky: if you need help with puppy, just drop me a mail.
[23:05:14] <cncuser> Jacky^: yes
[23:05:16] <Jacky^> ok
[23:05:18] <Jacky^> ty
[23:07:39] <cncuser> jacky: you are into robots ?
[23:08:31] <Jacky^> cncuser: http://www.roboitalia.com/
[23:08:54] <Jacky^> the plan of my first cnc comes from here
[23:09:12] <Jacky^> im not so fmiliar with robots, but I like it
[23:09:32] <cncuser> Jacky^: ic, nice
[23:09:42] <Jacky^> Im building something : http://digilander.libero.it/jackydgl0/idroid/idroid.html
[23:09:49] <Jacky^> just for fun
[23:10:03] <Jacky^> my first interest are CNC
[23:10:52] <k4ts> 0_0
[23:10:55] <k4ts> sigh
[23:10:58] <Jacky^> I got an admin role on the community and I'm tryng to get more peoples around Linux/emc
[23:11:12] <Jacky^> ok ok .. and k4ts too :D
[23:11:28] <cncuser> Jacky^: if you dont want to spend enormous amounts of time i suggest you buil packages for a distri. maintaining the whole beast ismuch work.
[23:11:55] <Jacky^> I have at least 2 targets
[23:12:18] <Jacky^> first emc2 running a neat gui (I like axis)
[23:12:38] <Jacky^> second a way to program microcontrollers
[23:12:44] <cncuser> heheh
[23:12:51] <Jacky^> avr and pic if is possible ..
[23:13:04] <cncuser> jacky: the avrthingy i want to do too
[23:13:17] <cncuser> jacky: also i thought about qcad
[23:13:22] <Jacky^> in puppy ?
[23:13:27] <Jacky^> nice
[23:13:37] <cncuser> yes
[23:13:58] <Jacky^> another thing I would do is to translare some importante doc in IT
[23:14:17] <Jacky^> many peoples are 'hard' to understand
[23:14:27] <cncuser> well, i could release a new version allready, but there are some issues with systemcrashes du to Xserver autoprobing....
[23:14:41] <Jacky^> but just the most important docs ..
[23:15:09] <cncuser> Jacky^: manpages ?
[23:15:13] <Jacky^> nope
[23:15:16] <cncuser> Jacky^: emc ?
[23:15:25] <Jacky^> yeah
[23:15:27] <Jacky^> emc2
[23:16:10] <Jacky^> I think, if these peoples understand well how it work and how much powerful it is
[23:16:23] <Jacky^> they will use it a lot
[23:16:40] <Jacky^> they dont know nothing about it
[23:16:50] <cncuser> ic
[23:17:12] <cncuser> jacky: is there a italien axis translation ?
[23:17:25] <Jacky^> dunno ..
[23:17:37] <Jacky^> never seen it
[23:17:43] <SWPadnos> cncuser, if I start with the puppysit.iso, is there a web page that will get me going with the compile you're doing?
[23:17:53] <SWPadnos> (a new install of that iso)
[23:18:17] <cncuser> AXIS 1.2a1 is now available. This is the first alpha test release of the next version of AXIS.
[23:18:17] <cncuser> The major new feature in this release is internationalization: AXIS can now be translated into any language supported by Tk. So far, translations have been contributed for German, Romanian, Hungarian, and Italian. More Information
[23:18:26] <cncuser> SWPadnos: no
[23:18:33] <SWPadnos> heh -OK
[23:18:42] <cncuser> SWPadnos: you can dumb puppysit
[23:18:48] <cncuser> SWPadnos: a dump
[23:18:57] <cncuser> SWPadnos: follow the howto
[23:19:13] <SWPadnos> sure - I can get a CD with puppy on it, and install - that's no problem
[23:19:31] <SWPadnos> it's helping with the stuff you're doing that I'd need directions for
[23:19:47] <cncuser> SWPadnos: now you lost me :)
[23:19:52] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:20:11] <SWPadnos> remember - you wanted me to compile somme stuff, since my machine should be a bit faster than yours
[23:20:34] <Jacky^> haha
[23:20:37] <SWPadnos> maybe it's been long enough that your machine finished ;)
[23:20:54] <cncuser> SWPadnos: yes, i do remember. there was a problem with systemhangs
[23:21:12] <cncuser> SWPadnos: its related to freedesktopXserver in some way
[23:21:17] <SWPadnos> ok
[23:21:29] <SWPadnos> maybe I'll just do a Gentoo install instead ;)
[23:21:36] <cncuser> hehe :)
[23:21:40] <Jacky^> ouch
[23:21:43] <SWPadnos> it's so much faster once it's finished, don't ya know
[23:21:53] <cncuser> SWPadnos: haha
[23:22:09] <Jacky^> SWPadnos: how much time you have to compile ?
[23:22:24] <SWPadnos> how do you mean?
[23:22:34] <Jacky^> using gentoo
[23:22:34] <cncuser> 1. noone ever finished gentoo. 2. you grow older faster with gentoo, thats right :)
[23:22:39] <SWPadnos> I can set the machine going, then leave it - it's a new workstation that I don't use all the time
[23:23:00] <Jacky^> no need to stay around it ? :P
[23:23:00] <SWPadnos> it only takes around 15 minutes to compile the 2.6.12 kernel (including most modules)
[23:23:02] <Jacky^> nice
[23:23:26] <SWPadnos> it might actually be able to finish a Gentoo install
[23:23:34] <cncuser> SWPadnos: glibc checks took 2 hours on my puter :)
[23:23:49] <cncuser> SWPadnos: a p4 2,6ghz (got my new mobo)
[23:23:53] <SWPadnos> I haven't tried glibc on this one
[23:23:55] <SWPadnos> cool
[23:24:53] <cncuser> SWPadnos: do you run system virtualisationsofwtare ?
[23:24:58] <SWPadnos> I try
[23:25:03] <cncuser> like vserver or zen or ssomething ?
[23:25:25] <SWPadnos> VMWare works well, qemu netwroking doesn't work, haven't tried Xen
[23:25:45] <cncuser> SWPadnos: i run vserver for more then 2 years. havent had no probs so far.
[23:26:34] <cncuser> SWPadnos: did you get the newest qemu and compile it ? the debian qemu is a little, welll...hmm hard to get on the net
[23:26:46] <cncuser> also without kqemu, no fun
[23:26:55] <SWPadnos> phone
[23:28:32] <cncuser> well
[23:28:33] <cncuser> jacky
[23:28:48] <cncuser> have you ever milled this cube in a cube in a cube thingy ?
[23:29:12] <cncuser> i dont know the name
[23:29:30] <Jacky^> never heard..
[23:29:35] <Jacky^> what is ?
[23:29:53] <cncuser> like..hmm
[23:29:58] <cncuser> you start with a cube
[23:30:27] <Jacky^> no clue :(
[23:30:53] <cncuser> and drill holes till you got 2 cubes within one cube.
[23:30:58] <cncuser> cube in a cube in a cube
[23:31:10] <Jacky^> never tried
[23:31:12] <cncuser> hmmm
[23:31:18] <cncuser> looks great
[23:31:22] <cncuser> id like to make one
[23:31:30] <cncuser> birthday present
[23:31:42] <cncuser> for the car back mirror :)
[23:31:47] <Jacky^> :-)
[23:32:08] <Jacky^> I just tried some gcode file included in emc
[23:32:18] <Jacky^> and some 3d relief
[23:34:53] <cncuser> similar to this but with another peacehttp://www.embeddedtronics.com/3dcube.html
[23:34:58] <cncuser> piece :)
[23:35:06] <cncuser> but peace anyways
[23:35:46] <Jacky^> cool :D
[23:36:44] <cncuser> yes, i think too
[23:36:49] <cncuser> well
[23:36:54] <cncuser> time to hit the road
[23:37:11] <Jacky^> see you next time :)
[23:37:23] <cncuser> -6.7 celsius
[23:37:24] <Jacky^> bye
[23:37:30] <Jacky^> damn
[23:37:35] <cncuser> ill idle, be back in a few hours
[23:37:48] <cncuser> cu
[23:38:28] <Jacky^> later
[23:38:34] <SWPadnos> ok - I'm back
[23:38:36] <SWPadnos> now that you're leaving ;)
[23:38:50] <SWPadnos> not on purpose, I swear
[23:39:14] <cncuser> hehe
[23:39:22] <cncuser> where were we ?
[23:39:24] <cncuser> a qemu
[23:39:28] <SWPadnos> I remembered that I did compile qemu
[23:39:34] <SWPadnos> including kqemu
[23:39:55] <SWPadnos> but networking still didn't work (even though I have the /dev/tun node)
[23:39:58] <cncuser> and did: modprobe keqmu : /usr/local/bin/qemu ....
[23:40:06] <cncuser> you dont need /dev/tun
[23:40:16] <SWPadnos> actually, the module was loaded automatically by qemu
[23:40:30] <SWPadnos> I suppose I could specify user networking
[23:40:39] <cncuser> strange
[23:40:46] <cncuser> should work out of the box
[23:40:53] <SWPadnos> I agree
[23:41:06] <cncuser> you are shure you didnt run the old binary ?
[23:41:52] <SWPadnos> pretty sure. I'm booting that machine, I'll have a look
[23:42:11] <cncuser> ok, else its soemthing for the qemu mailinglist i assume
[23:42:14] <cncuser> cu
[23:42:24] <SWPadnos> ok - see ya