#emc | Logs for 2006-01-24

[01:50:47] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. We're experiencing problems with one of our main rotation servers. It's been removed from rotation and will be shut down in a couple of minutes. Affected users: about 3,700. Thanks.
[02:12:43] <jepler> alex_joni: I thought you were gone for the day
[02:35:55] <Jymmm> jepler day yes, night no.
[08:03:30] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymm
[15:13:48] <les_w> morning
[15:16:16] <websys> nobody here but us chickens
[15:16:22] <les_w> haha
[15:23:46] <alex_joni> morning chickens
[15:24:02] <rayh> Hey!
[15:24:57] <alex_joni> rayh: wasn't meaning you :)
[15:25:04] <alex_joni> 17:15 < les_w> morning
[15:25:04] <alex_joni> 17:18 < websys> nobody here but us chickens
[15:25:04] <alex_joni> 17:18 < les_w> haha
[15:25:04] <alex_joni> 17:25 -!- rayh [n=swanlake@dial-pn1-23.wic.up.net] has joined #emc
[15:25:05] <alex_joni> 17:25 < alex_joni> morning chickens
[15:27:37] <rayh> Is the the time for "puck puck?"
[15:27:40] <websys> cluck cluck
[15:27:52] <jepler_> the the time?
[15:28:07] <rayh> How you doing, Bob.
[15:28:29] <websys> Very well thank you
[15:28:34] <rayh> Gotta get out of the north country and visit you soon?
[15:29:06] <websys> Anytime - gonna visit Todd in the future?
[15:29:14] <rayh> Yep.
[15:29:53] <alex_joni> hi jeff
[15:33:32] <jepler_> hi alex
[15:34:22] <les_w> friend just bought a 20 watt yag hi speed marking system. He was asking me how he could get some business.
[15:34:42] <les_w> 20 watts is a smaller unit
[15:35:32] <les_w> So they would basically have to sell setup/artwork
[15:36:19] <rayh> Guy up here is using 25 watt to cut veneer into model aircraft parts.
[15:36:41] <les_w> hmm
[15:36:47] <les_w> machanical cnc?
[15:37:07] <alex_joni> jepler_: changed your nick on purpose?
[15:37:56] <les_w> this laser uses mirrors and goes about 1500 mm/sec
[15:38:01] <les_w> over a small area
[15:38:32] <rayh> Yep. <les_w> machanical cnc?
[15:38:48] <les_w> mechanical heh
[15:38:52] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[15:38:56] <les_w> moving axes...
[15:39:03] <jepler> alex_joni: no. my system crashed last night. I didn't notice I came back with an underscore.
[15:39:10] <rayh> Table slides under the tube.
[15:39:12] <alex_joni> ok
[15:39:22] <les_w> ah ok
[15:39:43] <les_w> the work and head stay stationary in this rig
[15:40:03] <les_w> prob an old cellphone keyboard production machine
[15:40:11] <rayh> Right.
[15:40:48] <les_w> Newer machines are a lot more power, and of course in China.
[15:42:16] <les_w> Have to find a niche for him. Jewelry security? machine tool bits?
[15:44:06] <rayh> Wonder what the smallest font/resolution is?
[15:44:50] <les_w> He sent the manual. Seems really small. microscopic I guess
[15:45:27] <les_w> you know like the numbers engraved on the girdle of diamonds
[15:45:30] <les_w> let me check
[15:48:02] <les_w> wow. 1000 1mm characters per second
[15:48:37] <les_w> at max distance speed is not 1500 but 10,000 mm/sec
[15:49:03] <les_w> would not engrave many materials at that speed though
[15:50:04] <rayh> Credibility and a huge bond would be an issue with the jewelery marking.
[15:52:24] <rayh> Does anyone else have problems with emc2 cleaning up after a run?
[15:52:36] <alex_joni> rayh: what's left behind?
[15:53:29] <rayh> The blocks module doesn't want to unload.
[15:53:32] <les_w> Yeah I was thinking bond too
[15:53:52] <alex_joni> rayh: how was the blocks mudule loaded?
[15:53:55] <rayh> and shipping both ways by armored truck
[15:54:30] <rayh> It runs as a part of univstep but in this case I unloaded and reloaded it.
[15:54:34] <les_w> well shipping I figured would be out. They are in chicago though. Lots of local possibilities
[15:55:06] <rayh> Ah. I know a couple of EMC users in the "jewelery building."
[15:55:38] <alex_joni> rayh: unloaded/reloaded as root?
[15:55:42] <alex_joni> or using sudo?
[15:55:56] <rayh> using sudo through halconfig.tcl
[15:56:03] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok..
[15:56:05] <alex_joni> not sure :(
[15:56:08] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads home
[15:57:56] <skunkworks> les?
[15:58:07] <skunkworks> where you looking for hosting yesterday? http://www.hasweb.com/experience/hasweb_hostingplans.html
[15:58:47] <skunkworks> I have had very good luck with them - 48 a year and 35gb bandwidth - 2gb space
[15:59:02] <skunkworks> it is a division of hostdime
[15:59:23] <les_w> Jymmm was just showing me some other hosting
[15:59:30] <les_w> My site got hijacked
[15:59:37] <skunkworks> yeck
[15:59:41] <les_w> but it was not the host's fault
[15:59:50] <skunkworks> too easy of a password?
[15:59:54] <les_w> someone just got my password I guess
[16:00:05] <les_w> no the password was hard
[16:00:10] <les_w> had to be hacked
[16:00:12] <skunkworks> odd
[16:00:40] <rayh> or spyware on a box that accessed it.
[16:00:47] <skunkworks> right
[16:01:00] <les_w> well I cleaned up the code and changed passwords.
[16:01:14] <les_w> There were 3 extra lines in my index html.
[16:01:28] <les_w> redirecting to a virus site.
[16:01:43] <les_w> might happen again...dunno
[16:01:54] <skunkworks> first thought phisher but normally they are not looking for site passwords (just paypal, ebay, bank)
[16:02:04] <les_w> yeah
[16:02:42] <les_w> My guess is it got out in my non secure ftp transfers
[16:03:00] <skunkworks> most likely then
[16:03:18] <skunkworks> somebody was sniffing
[16:03:37] <les_w> yeah. I'll have to read up on sftp
[16:04:40] <jepler> les_w: are you on unix and comfortable with commandline ftp programs? If so, you may want to use 'lftp'. 'lftp fish://somehost' will connect with ssh, but act just like an ftp client.
[16:04:50] <jepler> les_w: (no, I don't know why it's called 'fish')
[16:05:04] <jepler> les_w: in windows, winscp3 is free and lets you drag & drop files over ssh
[16:05:29] <les_w> winders box using cuteftp, but I could be on linux or something.
[16:09:19] <jepler> les_w: try out winscp
[16:09:19] <jepler> les_w: http://winscp.net/eng/index.php
[16:09:19] <les_w> thanks...looking
[16:17:29] <les_w> looks good...just found that cuteftp has SSH and stuff too
[16:17:29] <les_w> I'l have to see if host handles that stuff
[16:17:29] <les_w> hmm ipowerweb added some more features...10 gig, 2500 emails, free domain
[16:17:29] <les_w> I think more bandwidth too
[16:17:29] <les_w> yeah up to 250 gig/mo
[16:17:29] <les_w> and they do have SSL....I'm just not using it
[16:17:30] <les_w> better start , huh?
[17:00:29] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[17:08:30] <Jymm> les_w: You any good with Great Circle stuff?
[17:09:14] <les_w> sorry was working
[17:09:36] <Jymm> The nerve! lol
[17:09:56] <les_w> I have some familiarity with great circle....but don't navigate quite that far in small aircraft
[17:10:21] <les_w> we use gps and vor
[17:10:21] <Jymm> les_w Well, not so much for flying as much as cartography
[17:10:34] <les_w> oh
[17:10:51] <les_w> well, what about it?
[17:11:14] <Jymm> les_w ok... flat earth map... I'm trying to figure out an est distance in miles per degree
[17:11:37] <Jymm> 180deg horizontal, 260 deg vertical
[17:11:42] <Jymm> 360
[17:12:19] <les_w> one minute lattitude is one nautical mile
[17:13:12] <les_w> which is 1.15 statute mile
[17:13:27] <Jymm> Vensu De milo?
[17:13:45] <Jymm> oooops, wrong statue =)
[17:13:54] <les_w> yeah that ststute
[17:13:59] <les_w> haha
[17:14:09] <Jymm> ah, Bud Light (if you've seen the resent commercial that is)
[17:14:17] <les_w> statute
[17:14:53] <les_w> Well when I learned to fly we used ruler scales on paper maps
[17:15:04] <les_w> now just flight plan software
[17:15:30] <les_w> sure is easier for calculating fuel etc
[17:15:30] <Jymm> Yeah, I'm just trying to estimate on a flat earth =)
[17:15:47] <Jymm> let me see if I can find a image online
[17:15:54] <les_w> k
[17:16:43] <Jymm> This will work... http://thumb.shutterstock.com/photos/display_pic_with_logo/1679/1679,1109224715,5.jpg
[17:17:04] <Jymm> LAT/LON 0,0 being the center of that of course
[17:17:17] <Jymm> even though that's a lie
[17:18:01] <Jymm> no, that be right. I'm still alseep
[17:18:12] <les_w> here is a typical flight plan software
[17:18:15] <les_w> http://gc.kls2.com/
[17:20:28] <Sed_> whats the best software out for genorating g-code from a cad drawing?
[17:21:29] <les_w> Sed_ how much money do you have?
[17:22:14] <bill20r3> sed, that's the big question, and I haven't found an answer yet.
[17:22:17] <Sed_> money is not a issue, if it were for me then it would be...
[17:22:21] <les_w> programs range from free to tens of thousands of dollars
[17:22:28] <les_w> hobby use?
[17:22:34] <Sed_> thousands would be cool
[17:22:38] <Sed_> no professional
[17:22:57] <les_w> well, Mastercam is the statndard
[17:23:06] <les_w> standard
[17:23:17] <les_w> I happen to not like it much
[17:23:28] <Sed_> I am totaly unqualified to buy this crap, which is being orderd by people who are unqualivied to say we need it..
[17:23:38] <les_w> car makers use pro engineer or ideas
[17:23:39] <Jymm> lol
[17:23:41] <Sed_> yea I have heard of mastercam, I gues I cant go wrong if I get that
[17:24:16] <Sed_> we build bullshit little parts, hardly anything that takes more than a few tools...
[17:24:24] <les_w> yeah for general cnc it prob has the most seats around
[17:24:38] <Jymm> There is also all the stuff from Rhino too (if 3D rendering is needed)
[17:24:47] <les_w> have a website for your company sed?
[17:25:24] <Sed_> www.mosaicoptics.com
[17:25:31] <les_w> looking
[17:25:57] <bill20r3> whats the 5th axis on a mill?
[17:26:08] <Jymm> b ?
[17:26:18] <Jymm> XYZABC iirc
[17:26:37] <bill20r3> well, the 4th is rotation, right?
[17:26:47] <bill20r3> like, horizontal rotation
[17:27:03] <Jymm> * Jymm has nu clue
[17:27:07] <Jymm> no
[17:27:20] <bill20r3> me either.
[17:27:36] <Jymm> * Jymm sinks the boat since we're both screwed =)
[17:27:43] <SWP_Away> A is rotation around the X axis, B is rotation around the Y axis, and C is rotation around the Z axis (like the spindle rotation)
[17:27:56] <bill20r3> ahh, ok.
[17:27:57] <bill20r3> thanks.
[17:28:07] <Jymm> SWP_Away : That's a nice desc.
[17:28:16] <SWP_Away> thank you, thank you
[17:28:28] <les_w> ah ok Sed. Neat. Telescopes. Yeah mastercam, surfcam, or similar would be good
[17:28:37] <Jymm> SWP_Away: But dont quit your day job, it wasn't THAT good =)
[17:28:45] <SWP_Away> fine. I'm leaving
[17:28:49] <les_w> what cad does your engineering staff use?
[17:29:11] <Jymm> les_w (MS-Paint)
[17:29:17] <les_w> haha
[17:29:33] <Jymm> SWP_Away: awwwwwwwwww
[17:29:46] <Jymm> SWP_Away: Stick around, you're good for something =)
[17:29:58] <Jymm> 36" mirror?! damn
[17:30:02] <SWP_Away> no, really. I have to bring the car in for a reapir estimate ;)
[17:30:05] <SWP_Away> repair
[17:30:22] <Jymm> SWP_Away uh oh, how bad was the accident?
[17:30:34] <Sed_> how much does mastercam go for?
[17:30:48] <SWP_Away> not bad at all. The bumper shell is broken, and the foam in the bumper will need to be replaced
[17:30:52] <les_w> Anyway Sed, < $1000 usually buys hobby stuff....works but slow
[17:31:03] <SWP_Away> nothing else that I can see (and of course, my wife is fine)
[17:31:15] <Jymm> SWP_Away: Sounds roughly $2200
[17:31:30] <les_w> mastercam and similar are 10,000+ or so depending
[17:31:30] <SWP_Away> brand new car - isnt't that fun
[17:31:37] <Sed_> I guess MasterCam X Mill is what I want
[17:32:02] <Jymm> SWP_Away: Ew, so no parts available yet.
[17:32:14] <SWP_Away> a new 2005, so there should be parts
[17:32:14] <les_w> ok. It can import from cad programs or you can use it's internal cad
[17:32:28] <SWP_Away> anyway - gotta run. see you later
[17:32:40] <les_w> wait...what car?
[17:32:48] <SWP_Away> 2005 ccord EX
[17:32:51] <SWP_Away> Accord
[17:32:59] <les_w> ahhh
[17:33:13] <Jymm> Revised estimate: $2640
[17:33:21] <SWP_Away> I'll let you know
[17:33:23] <Sed_> thanks for the help!!!
[17:33:31] <les_w> yw sed
[17:33:43] <Jymm> Sed_ did you ever say what cad they're using now?
[17:34:25] <Sed_> it was autocad, but the new chick running the show uses somthing else
[17:34:41] <Jymm> Solid Works?
[17:34:43] <Sed_> yea
[17:34:51] <Jymm> That's 3D
[17:35:05] <Sed_> yea
[17:35:10] <Jymm> Solid Works by itself is about $10K
[17:35:20] <Jymm> That excludes CAM
[17:35:29] <Sed_> solid works can write g-code?
[17:35:32] <Jymm> No
[17:35:53] <Sed_> thats what I need, to be able to take a solid works drawing and genorate code
[17:36:05] <Jymm> Hmmm, any suggestions Les ?
[17:36:49] <Jymm> I am no expert at all, but when I took a peek at SolidCAM, I wasn't impressed at first glance.
[17:37:01] <les_w> it can be imported to mastercam
[17:37:07] <Jymm> That doens't mean it's good or bad, just that I'm clueless.
[17:37:12] <les_w> and most other cam programs
[17:37:55] <les_w> let me check
[17:38:29] <Jymm> This is one, but all on know about it is what's on this page: http://www.teksoft.com/products.htm
[17:38:52] <Jymm> http://www.teksoft.com/camworks/camworks.htm
[17:39:25] <les_w> well solidworks has their own integrated cam for use with solidworks:
[17:39:28] <les_w> http://www.solidcam.com/solidworks/default.asp
[17:39:40] <les_w> I don't know anything about it
[17:39:46] <Jymm> les_w: Yeah, but when *I* looked at it, I thought it was icky
[17:40:02] <les_w> I'm sure you can get free evaluation of all this stuff
[17:40:03] <Jymm> Not intuitive at all compared to SW
[17:40:22] <les_w> Well, I think mastercam is icky
[17:40:28] <alex_joni> oh my, seems the nigerian fortunes moved to Zimbabwe
[17:40:29] <les_w> but it is the standard
[17:40:31] <Jymm> CamWorks seems to have full docs and training included
[17:40:46] <Jymm> les_w Well, I think you're icky!
[17:40:48] <Jymm> =)
[17:41:06] <les_w> haha
[17:41:26] <les_w> Sed, get evaluation copies and let her try it.
[17:42:24] <Jymm> CAMWorks provides a realistic simulation of the complete machine tool
[17:43:12] <les_w> Yeah there are dozens and dozens of cam programs out there...ends up ease of use is the most important thing
[17:43:25] <Jymm> les_w ok, back to my globe issue.
[17:43:30] <les_w> ok.
[17:43:46] <Jymm> I can't think on minutes, only decimal or whole degrees
[17:43:52] <Jymm> s/on/in/
[17:44:28] <les_w> .0166 degrees
[17:44:41] <Sed_> is CAMWorks less than mastercam?
[17:44:47] <Sed_> MasterCam is 3-12k
[17:45:11] <Jymm> Sed_ doubtful
[17:45:19] <les_w> Not sure....but I'm sure it's not cheap
[17:45:55] <Sed_> well I cant go wrong for recomending mastercam, its what she used 15 years ago when she was a machinist..
[17:46:50] <Jymm> Sed_ there ya go =)
[17:46:57] <Sed_> our old machinest got by with a 50 dollar package called "code shark" and he knew g-code.
[17:46:59] <les_w> ahhh....yeah.
[17:47:08] <les_w> 3 axis work?
[17:47:19] <Sed_> no one ever got fired for buying Dell or IBM...
[17:47:25] <les_w> right
[17:47:36] <Jymm> I'd fire ya for buying Dell =)
[17:47:42] <les_w> hahaha
[17:47:44] <Sed_> heh
[17:48:06] <Sed_> I actualy come from IT, I build servers and all I buy is IBM
[17:48:07] <Jymm> * Jymm <--- SysAdmin bkgnd
[17:48:13] <Sed_> heh
[17:48:20] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmm
[17:48:21] <Sed_> Jymm what os?
[17:48:48] <Jymmm> Sed_ About 25yrs of M$, and about 5 of nix
[17:48:54] <les_w> Sed the mastercam guys will come in with demo software and give a dog and pony show
[17:49:02] <Sed_> FreeBSD for me..
[17:49:28] <Jymmm> Sed_ Wanna Trade M$ exp for nix?
[17:49:30] <Sed_> I am basicly going to learn what they buy, Im new to CNC machining.
[17:50:16] <Sed_> I have more M$ experiance than I will ever admit publicly. and the more I dont know about how M$ networks, the better off I am.
[17:50:28] <les_w> heh
[17:50:31] <Jymmm> Sed_ Personally, I'd give her a few choices and see what she likes best.
[17:50:58] <les_w> Sed I have to get a second cnc, so I have similar circumstance...
[17:51:13] <les_w> was going to retrofit...may just buy new now.
[17:51:20] <Jymmm> Sed_ Sounds like me and my knowledge of EXCH... which i REFUSE to ever support.
[17:51:29] <les_w> I am a commercial cnc user too.
[17:52:08] <Jymmm> les_w: is 69 miles per degree "close enough" ?
[17:52:22] <Sed_> well she didnt know what a Lagun mill was, and wanted to know if the late we buy needed a removable gap, I told her a 14" lathe with a gap would be cool cuz we turn the occational large part, she came back with a 21" lathe....
[17:52:26] <les_w> uh...
[17:52:43] <les_w> yeqah.
[17:52:45] <alex_joni> Jymmm: btw, did you ever try OpenXchange?
[17:52:48] <les_w> yeah
[17:52:54] <Jymmm> alex_joni for?
[17:53:05] <alex_joni> instead of EXCH..
[17:53:10] <Sed_> nope never tried OpenXchange
[17:53:13] <les_w> 21" lathe gawd
[17:53:14] <Jymmm> alex_joni Ah, no.
[17:53:40] <Jymmm> alex_joni The thing about EXCH is the dman calendaring
[17:54:07] <Sed_> a 21" lathe is probably not the best thing to use for making small telescope parts.
[17:55:01] <les_w> only lathe you have?
[17:55:23] <Sed_> she is in charge of buying us one, the old machinest took all the equipment
[17:55:49] <les_w> Need a little one too 10 or 12 inch perhaps
[17:56:01] <Sed_> I was the Aprentice and am now the only employee left..
[17:56:18] <les_w> hrmmm
[17:56:23] <Sed_> yea I was going to suggest 14" be the bigest
[17:56:37] <Sed_> I have a 13
[17:57:13] <Sed_> somthing that takes BX tool posts, not CX
[17:57:19] <les_w> right
[17:57:51] <Sed_> I think it would be rather hard to find a #7 drill with a 5MT... heh
[17:58:05] <les_w> heh
[17:58:27] <les_w> My machine shop just makes engineering prototypes
[17:58:33] <les_w> usually small
[17:59:02] <Sed_> we are a prototype shop as well (or were and aspire to be again)
[17:59:08] <les_w> We just have a small boxford VSL with collet closer
[17:59:20] <les_w> it's fine for most stuff
[17:59:27] <bill20r3> neat: http://www.zcorp.com/products/printersdetail.asp?ID=2
[17:59:43] <Sed_> I told here to get a Colchester Clausing lathe, she found a 15"
[18:00:05] <Sed_> and we are getting a Haas mill and Lagun knee mill
[18:01:15] <les_w> I have a friend with a colchester 15.....it's very nice. I have used it a good bit.
[18:01:33] <les_w> Yeah I am looking at Haas too
[18:01:38] <Sed_> yea Like I said, cant get fired for buying IBM
[18:01:43] <les_w> heh
[18:01:46] <Sed_> VF3 is what she found
[18:02:05] <les_w> yes I have been looking at that model
[18:02:17] <les_w> lots of late model used ones on the market
[18:03:08] <les_w> VF3 about $20k used good condition IIR
[18:03:11] <Sed_> I was learning on a Maho rigged up with EMC and new scales running a servo-to-go card
[18:03:30] <les_w> Yes I am running servo to go
[18:03:37] <les_w> on a big router
[18:04:16] <Sed_> I want to find an old CNC and convert it to EMC
[18:04:41] <Sed_> either that or convert my little mill at home, just to learn
[18:04:48] <les_w> Very few folks run emc full servo
[18:04:50] <bill20r3> what mill do you have @ home?
[18:05:15] <Sed_> POS Jet type China mill, smaller than a bridgeport
[18:05:28] <bill20r3> ah
[18:05:44] <Sed_> hobby type
[18:06:03] <les_w> I have an index vertical manual.
[18:06:05] <Jymmm> Sed_: "Implied by the POS designation" =)
[18:06:07] <bill20r3> I have a micro-mill I'm researching cnc'ing
[18:06:17] <bill20r3> also a POS hobby type
[18:06:25] <les_w> But we seem to be often making 5 or 10 of something.
[18:06:46] <Sed_> how plausable is it to use stepper moters without ball screws?
[18:07:16] <les_w> The router is a high speed spindle type more suited to wood and plastic
[18:07:18] <bill20r3> I have no idea. I think some people are doing it, but I dont know how well it works.
[18:07:19] <Jymmm> Sed_ like with ACME ?
[18:07:23] <Sed_> I heard you can run them from the PP por
[18:07:36] <Sed_> yea ACME
[18:08:02] <les_w> yeah....but although great for hobby or home, I sure can't reccomemnd it for any business stuff
[18:08:05] <Jymmm> I have a 269 inoz steppers direct to 10TPI acme on my Z (gantry router),
[18:08:48] <Sed_> I just want to learn G-code enought to get a couple of jobs here and there, and then buy somthing real
[18:08:58] <les_w> I see
[18:10:06] <les_w> Well, for home metalworking retrofitting an old BP boss is about the cheapest and easiest way to go I think
[18:10:10] <Sed_> I see all thease retro fitted bridgeport type mills, why on earth do they run the quill ass the Z axis with no gib, and not run it on the knee that has a gib??
[18:10:49] <Sed_> and travel
[18:10:54] <les_w> I don't know.
[18:10:57] <les_w> cost I guess
[18:11:25] <Sed_> my mill is a bench mill, I was going to put a hole in the bottom and run the Z there..
[18:11:25] <les_w> need big amps and stuff to get good accel on the knee
[18:12:04] <Sed_> the machines I see are 40k, how much could that add to the cost..
[18:12:35] <les_w> heh
[18:12:52] <les_w> that's as much as some of the Haas new
[18:12:59] <Sed_> the Y axis on the Maho lifted probably like a ton of weight..
[18:13:10] <les_w> isn't vf3 about 49k?
[18:13:25] <Sed_> we are looking at a used one for about that price
[18:13:34] <les_w> The gantry on my router is about half a ton.
[18:13:41] <les_w> but it isn't lifted
[18:13:43] <Sed_> the base model was like 90k I thought
[18:14:11] <les_w> I may be confused with model numbers
[18:14:14] <les_w> let me check
[18:14:20] <Sed_> I just said Haas, its like buying IBM from what I can tell
[18:14:22] <Jymmm> les_w: If you get your butt off the gantry it wouldn't weight so much.... IT"S NOT A MECHANICAL BULL I keep telling you that!
[18:16:03] <les_w> haha
[18:16:16] <les_w> yeah I was thinking vf0 and vf1
[18:16:42] <Sed_> http://www.jrkerr.com/boards.html
[18:16:48] <Sed_> any of that stuff work with EMC?
[18:17:52] <les_w> it's being worked on
[18:18:18] <les_w> hmmm 2000 VF@ on ebay 43K
[18:18:27] <les_w> VF2
[18:18:35] <Sed_> the 3phase one can handle some current
[18:19:29] <Sed_> at high voltage it would be able to push some shit around.
[18:19:52] <les_w> yeah.
[18:20:30] <les_w> Oh af far as emc....we find the vital motenc dramatically outperforms the old stg as far as servo update
[18:20:36] <les_w> it's cheaper too
[18:21:05] <les_w> servo update is a big deal on routers.
[18:21:36] <Sed_> whats the vital motenc?
[18:22:06] <les_w> can only get 2k on the stg here. One guy here got 8K on a 1 gig machine with motenc.
[18:22:28] <les_w> It is a new card supported by emc for servo
[18:22:37] <les_w> pci
[18:22:40] <Sed_> got a link?
[18:22:45] <les_w> looking
[18:22:52] <Sed_> thanks
[18:23:26] <Sed_> I still want to get EMC2 working on my friends Maho with his stg.
[18:23:45] <Sed_> I have to wait till he gets the machine back up and running though
[18:23:47] <les_w> http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/motion100.php
[18:24:09] <les_w> don't buy anymore stg.
[18:24:24] <les_w> this one is much better
[18:24:32] <Sed_> thats a big card
[18:25:02] <les_w> they make a "light" 4 axis card too
[18:25:39] <Sed_> can you hook it all up with the external connector??
[18:26:18] <les_w> I think it needs breakout boards
[18:27:41] <les_w> it has a lot more dio than the stg too
[18:29:42] <les_w> enough for tool changers etc
[18:30:35] <les_w> These card were pretty much designed from the ground up with emc in mind
[18:56:44] <les_w> hmm Haas min 2002 for 34k on ebay
[18:57:06] <les_w> now if I wasn't buying a car...
[18:57:33] <les_w> mini not min
[18:57:47] <les_w> plenty big enough for my stuff.
[19:08:21] <Sed_> you should see what I have to go through to get a freaking drill press
[19:08:49] <les_w> heh
[19:09:10] <alex_joni> why would you press a drill?
[19:09:18] <les_w> I'm still waiting for central time zone to get backfrom lunch here
[19:09:36] <alex_joni> Sed_: don't answer that ;)
[19:10:00] <Sed_> a $260.00 Drill press is going to cost them about $600.00 buy the time I get it
[19:10:19] <alex_joni> ouch.. how far?
[19:11:08] <Sed_> well its a Hitachi 15" floor mount with a MT2 taper at the local hardware store.
[19:12:07] <Sed_> but they have paied me my hourly wage to drive around from place to place to find one, then decided not to get it, and its on and off again depending on who they have a meeting with.. now I have to drive back to the store and get it.
[19:12:16] <les_w> oh I see you have zemax. I use opticad.
[19:12:55] <Sed_> what type of optic work do you do??
[19:13:45] <les_w> well, I am a research fellow for a large corporation , although I started my own business
[19:13:52] <les_w> still do work for them
[19:14:04] <les_w> did an optical encoder product lately
[19:14:28] <les_w> did the optics on the Boeing 777 anunciators a while back
[19:14:41] <les_w> now doing some ultrasonic work.
[19:15:25] <Sed_> what type of systems do you build?, we do Telescopes, Spectrometers and Microscopes, and misc crap..
[19:15:32] <Sed_> backspace doesent wok
[19:15:37] <Sed_> work
[19:15:40] <les_w> heh
[19:16:19] <les_w> well, design custom machine tools some...now working with the spray gun division....also the switch division
[19:16:57] <Sed_> I do work for Boeing too, heh.
[19:17:32] <les_w> Just try to be a one stop shop....develop mechanical and electronics products, make prototypes and ship em.
[19:17:55] <les_w> so we need a small but capable machine shop
[19:19:21] <les_w> kinda in growth mode...enlarging things.
[19:19:52] <les_w> All embroiled with getting new shop wiring now to handle bigger stuff
[19:42:48] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/debian/rules: ehh, it's just a typo, so who would care ;)
[19:43:52] <Sed_> Im in a situation where our machinist quit and took all the eqipemtn with him, now I have a buch of physasists directing me how to build a macihine shop, most of which have never set foot in one
[19:44:09] <alex_joni> lol
[19:45:16] <Sed_> I have only run CNC machines for a few months, and they have me deciding on what cam software to buy... its laughable
[19:46:55] <les_w> I watched the tapes on the site
[19:47:16] <Sed_> I will probably go work for our old machinist when he gets that Maho back up and running, I would like to get EMC2 going on it.
[19:47:40] <les_w> sounds like a plan
[19:47:50] <les_w> I was looking at oceanit too
[19:48:02] <les_w> where do these guys get their funding?
[19:48:07] <Sed_> alex_joni and some others helped me get it most of the way there by converting EMC1
[19:48:17] <Sed_> we get funding from government hand outs
[19:48:23] <les_w> ah
[19:48:59] <Sed_> we were going to become a full blown optics shop and make real money, oceanit said no
[19:49:08] <Sed_> so everyone quit
[19:49:48] <Sed_> now its just me, Im waiting for them to get me a Haas to learn on.. heh
[19:50:02] <les_w> Well, I do the research, design the stuff, run the tools, ans sweep the floor. Have One part time retired engineer that also does machining, and one other.
[19:51:08] <Sed_> we have a engineer that used to be a CNC operatior, from her suggestions I can tell she does not have much experiance in a shop.
[19:51:29] <Sed_> and thus far her desings look kind of over kill
[19:51:39] <les_w> heh
[19:52:06] <les_w> Yeah, I am an aero engineer, but always was around machine tools.
[19:52:23] <les_w> Now design them sometimes.
[19:52:46] <les_w> I guess my tools look like airplanes.
[19:53:13] <Sed_> yea asking wether we should get a lathe with removable gap or not, then suggesting a 21" lathe in lew of it kind of tells you where shes at
[19:53:39] <les_w> haha
[19:53:47] <Sed_> Im sure Timex makes all their watch parts on a 21" lathe
[19:54:08] <les_w> you could make toothpicks from logs...
[19:55:10] <les_w> the rare times I need something big and round....I just mill it on a rotary table.
[19:55:17] <Jymmm> les_w Heh, I wondered how toothpicks were actually made for years... Saw how it was done last month. VERY VERY cool.
[19:55:43] <les_w> the round ones?
[19:55:52] <les_w> i'm not sure
[19:55:53] <Jymmm> yeah
[19:56:01] <les_w> the flat ones are split I guess
[19:56:08] <Sed_> I have always owend a lathe and a mill, been working on them for 24 years as a backup to my automotive business and hobby but I have no experiance with CAD and CNC
[19:56:41] <Jymmm> they take a 24" long log, then peel it like an apple into a VERY long, thin sheet
[19:56:59] <les_w> I think the cnc bit is pretty easy....because you already know how to machine stuff
[19:57:32] <les_w> jymmm....ok...rotary veneer cutter...then what
[19:57:50] <Sed_> I changed jobs in 93 to become a network administrator, and know a bit about Unix and some Linux, that helps too
[19:58:38] <Jymmm> I dont remember it was on "Made In America" The Travel Channel with John Ratzibeger, the mailman from the show 'Cheers' really good.
[19:59:16] <Sed_> I use Linux to watch satellite TV. heh
[19:59:44] <alex_joni> everybody does
[19:59:50] <alex_joni> just they don't know ;)
[20:00:18] <alex_joni> some sat receivers are arm based with linux on them
[20:00:23] <les_w> Well I use linux because of emc. It runs rock solid on my machine and has for several years.
[20:00:53] <Sed_> yea, I use a powerpc based box from Hauppauge that has linux runing on it as my front end
[20:01:10] <les_w> I have to use emc1 right now.....1000 lb gantry whizzing at hundreds of ipm is not a good test bed for experimental code...
[20:01:23] <Sed_> Im glad emc went to debian on the BDI disks, I understand it more the Red Hat
[20:01:34] <alex_joni> les_w: not much experimental code left in emc2
[20:01:42] <les_w> well good
[20:01:52] <alex_joni> at least I know lots of areas where emc1 is WAY worse
[20:02:20] <alex_joni> but I agree for the 1000lb gantry
[20:02:26] <les_w> heh
[20:02:33] <alex_joni> the TP is still not very ok..
[20:02:43] <les_w> right
[20:02:45] <alex_joni> I trust the one cradek did is, but that does no blending
[20:02:55] <les_w> but high servo rates help
[20:02:57] <les_w> a bunch
[20:03:16] <alex_joni> might, but there are still wrong speeds during blending
[20:03:26] <les_w> oh yes
[20:03:39] <alex_joni> probably on servo's with PID it won't matter that much if you exceed the machine limits
[20:03:44] <alex_joni> but steppers WILL fail
[20:03:58] <alex_joni> er.. WOULD ;)
[20:04:08] <alex_joni> cause I don't know of steppers that run that fast
[20:04:22] <les_w> at least with the high servo rates you can also get high trajectory rates...and it helps keep me out of the stutter thing
[20:04:34] <alex_joni> except a german user lately that had about 12.5 mm/screw turn
[20:04:59] <alex_joni> les_w: did you ever experience the stutter thing?
[20:05:08] <alex_joni> I mean when running actual programs
[20:05:19] <les_w> Once the stutter starts....practical machining is over.
[20:06:03] <les_w> Yes. many many times. Myself, Paul, Fred, and Rogier have all observed it and timed it
[20:06:14] <alex_joni> I see..
[20:06:31] <alex_joni> well guess you need a faster board then, one that gets you higher servo update
[20:06:32] <alex_joni> s
[20:06:58] <les_w> exactly. The stg turns out to be the limiting factor.
[20:07:31] <les_w> We have not found a speed limit for motenc....but it will likely do over 10k
[20:08:01] <Jacky^> hi
[20:08:06] <les_w> hi jacky
[20:08:10] <les_w> back home?
[20:08:14] <Jacky^> hi les_w
[20:08:27] <Jacky^> yeah... :)
[20:09:42] <Jacky^> almost hot here
[20:09:54] <les_w> If we stay out of the stutter region thing are fairly behaved...although we know the speeds are not correct always
[20:10:02] <les_w> at least it follows the path
[20:10:21] <Jacky^> yeah
[20:10:26] <Jacky^> true
[20:10:46] <les_w> the stutter part destroys the work and tool.
[20:11:42] <les_w> the faster the trajectory rate, the faster you can go before stutter begins.
[20:12:00] <les_w> And with the stg...that is not fast enough for a router.
[20:12:33] <alex_joni> well, it's ISA..
[20:12:42] <les_w> but running at 10k servo and perhaps 2k trajectory will be much better
[20:13:01] <les_w> so I really need to change out the stg
[20:13:16] <alex_joni> and EMC for emc2 ;)
[20:13:39] <les_w> kicking and screaming? hahaha
[20:13:39] <Sed_> is there any servo controller that speaks ethernet/firewre/usb2 ??
[20:14:01] <les_w> there are some
[20:14:18] <Sed_> you could run your mill off your laptop... heh
[20:14:26] <les_w> but usb is too slow for most practical cnc
[20:14:30] <les_w> packet rate...
[20:14:45] <Sed_> dedicated ethernet would work
[20:14:45] <les_w> data rate is fine
[20:14:52] <alex_joni> ethernet, but you need RT-eth
[20:15:03] <alex_joni> les_w: depends on the type you want
[20:15:08] <Sed_> is there such a thing?
[20:15:27] <alex_joni> there are products like the G-Rex (which speaks USB, but only for motion commands, interp & all is done inside)
[20:15:31] <alex_joni> Sed_: yes
[20:17:27] <Sed_> I see lots of google hits on real time ethernet for Linux
[20:18:30] <Jymmm> RT ethernet? Sounds like an oxymoron
[20:18:43] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[20:18:44] <Jymmm> oh wait, ethernet, not TCP/IP. nm
[20:19:26] <alex_joni> Jymmm: it's just above physical
[20:19:29] <SWPadnos> THe G-Rex is customizable
[20:19:30] <Sed_> yea lower level than IP..
[20:20:00] <SWPadnos> still IP, but UDP/IP, not necessarily TCP/IP
[20:20:22] <SWPadnos> RT Ethernet doesn't have to be at the level of the ethernet frame
[20:20:36] <Jymmm> ok, no OSI Ref model chit chat now.... it was just a brain fart
[20:21:18] <Sed_> it would be a more universal interface that didnt reqire a special card in a PC, you could use a laptop or custom mini PC
[20:21:48] <SWPadnos> OSI - Old Skool Intarweb ;)
[20:22:03] <Sed_> you get get little 1ghz boxes with eithernet the size of a pack of cigarettes
[20:22:16] <SWPadnos> the RT ethernet people recommend a separate physical ethernet segment for RT
[20:22:28] <Jymmm> * Jymmm swaps SWPadnos network with LANtastic!
[20:22:40] <Sed_> Artisoft!!
[20:22:43] <SWPadnos> so you can't have your normal LAN traffic on the RT net
[20:22:52] <SWPadnos> Ahhh - good old Artisoft ;)
[20:23:20] <SWPadnos> Using Arcnet, no less ;)
[20:23:32] <Sed_> Novell
[20:23:33] <Jymmm> dont make me pull out my AUI tranceivers now!
[20:23:34] <les_w> tom kerekes has made some progress on the emc interpreter based 600 mflop dsp card of his
[20:23:53] <les_w> basically he is writing more cannonical functions
[20:23:58] <Jymmm> TokenRing
[20:24:00] <Sed_> not having to deal with a PCI/ISA cards would be trick
[20:24:07] <les_w> at first he had only g0-4
[20:24:37] <SWPadnos> PCI cards are OK, since you can read/write 32-bit quantities in a singly instruction (let alone the bursting possibilities)
[20:24:45] <SWPadnos> single
[20:24:55] <Sed_> you could take your laptom from your desk over to the mill and run it.. heh
[20:25:03] <Sed_> laptop even
[20:25:08] <Jymmm> SWPadnos but how fast can you shove that to a motor?
[20:25:19] <les_w> well if emc can do 10k, I would say that is reasonable for a modern control
[20:25:50] <SWPadnos> the USC takes around 50 uS to do a full update, using the parport, as it needs roughly 50 byte reads/writes to get the job done (at roughly 1 microsecond per)
[20:26:10] <SWPadnos> a PCI version would have 5 reads, and 5 writes, at 33 MHz
[20:26:18] <SWPadnos> *much* faster :)
[20:26:24] <Jymmm> hmmmm
[20:26:48] <SWPadnos> someone like Les, who has a machine that does 0.5g (right les?), might want 20 KHz servo updates
[20:27:12] <les_w> well just raw processing ability would be the next bottlenack. The RT thread has an awful lot of calcs in it
[20:27:39] <les_w> I can do .5 g in x, but several g in y and z.
[20:27:56] <SWPadnos> processing isn't a factor in modern PCs. It's the latency that kills you, partly because the phuysical update to the drivers takes so long
[20:28:39] <SWPadnos> if you could reduce the update to the calculations + 5 microseconds, it would be more tolerant of jitter (though you might start having to take phase jitter into account in the PID)
[20:29:48] <Yen> What about PLC's? are they also supported by this project?
[20:29:57] <SWPadnos> there's a PLC built into emc2
[20:30:15] <les_w> well only segmentqueue managed to run out of time...
[20:30:27] <les_w> but no matter...since it does not work
[20:30:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:32:26] <Yen> So this software makes your computer act as a PLC and will controll hardware with it etc?
[20:32:57] <les_w> for a lot of machining 10k is way overkilll....but it's the only workaround in emc to lessen the stutter
[20:33:12] <les_w> for hsm/routers 10k is needed though.
[20:33:41] <alex_joni> Yen: a PLC is a Programable Locig Controller, basicly a something that lets you program it to execute some actions
[20:33:46] <SWPadnos> Yen, yes. the component is a version of ClassicLadder, and it's a ladder logic PLC
[20:33:57] <alex_joni> the most common actions are to set/reset outputs based on conditions
[20:34:04] <SWPadnos> you can also interface to external PLCs if you choose to do so
[20:34:07] <alex_joni> and yes, there is a software one in emc2
[20:34:36] <Yen> nice :)
[20:36:32] <les_w> As far as I know emc is the only servo machine control south of about2 or 3k dollars
[20:37:12] <SWPadnos> if you're talking about something that has closed loop control, then yes, you're right about that (probably closer to $10k)
[20:37:20] <les_w> wincnc and galil is next ....
[20:37:33] <les_w> it is about 3k minimum
[20:37:35] <SWPadnos> and openCNC
[20:37:37] <SWPadnos> ah - OK
[20:38:00] <les_w> then camsoft
[20:38:13] <les_w> best quote I got was about 5k
[20:38:43] <les_w> emc is basically $550 with motenc lite
[20:39:21] <SWPadnos> or $200 with the m5i20 ($300 with a couple of their I/O Omodules)
[20:39:47] <les_w> Tom kereke's board could be a machine control with servo amps at about $900
[20:40:00] <les_w> We got him to put fewer, bigger amps on it
[20:40:13] <SWPadnos> I think that's too hard to update, since the interp is on the card (right?)
[20:40:29] <les_w> no it's on the host pc
[20:40:45] <les_w> motion is on the card
[20:40:48] <SWPadnos> ah - OK. the canon interp is on the DSP, but the G-code interp is on the PC
[20:41:12] <les_w> yeah and that may be a problem
[20:41:49] <les_w> currently he has to load the entire motion to the card before execution
[20:42:15] <SWPadnos> that's a problem ;)
[20:42:50] <SWPadnos> I'm thinking of program updates as well - what happens when the canon language is changed? (not too frequent, but still a concern)
[20:42:50] <les_w> well it could be....he does not have infinite ram on the card
[20:43:11] <les_w> yeah
[20:43:24] <SWPadnos> change one data structure, and you need the DSP compiler and a downloader to reprogram the card
[20:43:27] <les_w> I am not sure exactly what he is send down
[20:43:38] <les_w> must be a queue of cannon calls
[20:43:57] <les_w> canon
[20:44:03] <SWPadnos> which card is this, by the way?
[20:44:20] <les_w> let me get a link here
[20:45:12] <les_w> http://www.dynomotion.com/
[20:45:24] <SWPadnos> OK. I thought it was that one
[20:45:46] <les_w> If you recall we had some operations going to market a cnc router....
[20:45:57] <SWPadnos> USB2 - same problem as teh G-Rex
[20:46:01] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:46:12] <les_w> I pretty much suspended it....because we had no control
[20:46:41] <les_w> The potential product had to be better AND cheaper
[20:46:46] <SWPadnos> 55V max on the amps - not a great thing
[20:47:02] <les_w> and that means a fast servo control that does not cost thousands
[20:47:13] <les_w> he has new amps
[20:47:18] <les_w> not on the site yet
[20:47:25] <SWPadnos> The G-Rex is a better option there - the drives are $100 to OEMs, and the G-Rex board is $250, I think. $650 for 4 axes
[20:47:32] <les_w> 12 amp 90v I think
[20:47:38] <SWPadnos> and that's up to 1600W per motor
[20:47:44] <SWPadnos> ok - that would be good ;)
[20:48:20] <les_w> yeah. Well anyway one of us still has the major hots to market a cnc product
[20:48:35] <les_w> So we are still working on Tom.
[20:48:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:49:10] <les_w> I won't invest time or money unless we have a complete servo machine control for under 1k
[20:49:27] <SWPadnos> including monitor / case?
[20:49:41] <SWPadnos> cost or sale?
[20:50:27] <SWPadnos> I see no mention of Linux on that site
[20:50:31] <k4ts> hello
[20:51:25] <SWPadnos> hi
[20:52:05] <les_w> hi k4ts
[20:52:17] <les_w> swp having trouble with identify....
[20:52:21] <les_w> just a sec
[20:52:52] <SWPadnos> oh - the G-Rex is $176 in 100 qty, and the G320 is $96. so the 4-axis system would be $560
[20:54:03] <SWPadnos> and you can do a 3-axis system at first, then expand to 6 axes incrementally
[20:54:08] <SWPadnos> too bad it's also USB ;)
[21:03:24] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/debian/rules: changed DESTDIR for building debs
[21:05:07] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, you might want to fix your email address in debian/control :)
[21:05:47] <alex_joni> might I?
[21:05:53] <alex_joni> then I'll only get complaints :D
[21:05:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:06:08] <SWPadnos> they might figure out that sourceforge.nt doesn't exist ;)
[21:06:27] <alex_joni> but only the ones that are worthy answering
[21:06:38] <CIA-14> 03cradek * 10emc2/debian/rules: this goes with the previous fix
[21:06:44] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/debian/control: SWP busted me on this one
[21:07:01] <SWPadnos> heh ;:
[21:07:04] <SWPadnos> ;)
[21:34:53] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hihg-5's SWPadnos
[21:34:56] <Jymmm> high
[21:35:09] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos high-fives jymmm
[21:35:14] <SWPadnos> though I don't know why
[21:35:22] <Jymmm> <CIA-14> alex_joni * emc2/debian/control: SWP busted me on this one
[21:35:26] <SWPadnos> $599.03, by the way
[21:35:27] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:35:36] <Jymmm> $599 for ?
[21:35:57] <SWPadnos> car repairs
[21:36:20] <Jymmm> Hmmmm, seens too cheap
[21:36:38] <SWPadnos> just a plastic bumper shell, some foam, and some paint
[21:36:45] <Jymmm> Yeah, I know
[21:36:56] <Jymmm> my gf's was $800 something
[21:37:01] <Jymmm> honda
[21:37:02] <SWPadnos> what kind of car?
[21:37:06] <SWPadnos> ok
[21:37:17] <SWPadnos> maybe the labor rates are lower here?
[21:37:22] <SWPadnos> it
[21:37:28] <Jymmm> everything is expensive here
[21:37:36] <SWPadnos> it's actually less than half labor
[21:37:54] <Jymmm> iirc it's like $65/hr for labor
[21:38:14] <SWPadnos> ok - that's pretty close to here, but some of the lower price places are as little as $35-$45
[21:38:36] <SWPadnos> that's a reman bumper, not OEM (saves a whopping $60)
[21:38:52] <Jymmm> ah
[21:44:18] <CIA-14> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/emc/ (rs274ngc/Makefile task/Makefile): build librs274.a instead of .objs/rs274.o, and link it when building milltask
[21:45:30] <CIA-14> 03jepler * 10emc2/include/.cvsignore: Add cvsignore file so that cvs doesn't complain about the .h and .hh files that are moved here during the build
[21:45:38] <alex_joni> jepler: yay
[21:49:52] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/ (configure.in configure config.h.in): added checks for sincos, and __sincos
[21:50:21] <jepler> alex_joni: yay
[21:50:44] <SWPadnos> jepler and alex_joni: yay
[21:51:42] <CIA-14> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/libnml/posemath/ (sincos.c sincos.h): testing for sincos functions found by ./configure
[21:51:47] <alex_joni> yay ;)
[21:52:17] <alex_joni> jepler: if you had 2 commits, it's only fair that I do 2 myself :))
[21:56:46] <CIA-14> 03jepler * 10emc2/ (21 files in 21 dirs): complete cvsignores for the whole tree. I don't get any "?"s on update anymore
[21:57:47] <alex_joni> jepler: yay ;)
[21:57:55] <SWPadnos> yay
[22:06:07] <jepler> so I'm finally a contributor to emc2...
[22:06:15] <alex_joni> jepler: nice one ;)
[22:09:05] <cradek> we need all the help we can get!
[22:10:05] <alex_joni> cradek: indeed we do
[22:15:46] <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
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[22:42:32] <alex_joni> night all
[22:42:35] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[22:49:02] <Jacky^> Night alex_joni
[22:49:44] <bill20r3> Mmm, bed.