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[00:05:48] <les_w> jymmm, I buy from them. Price is ok even though they have raised it. You'll break em all too.
[00:06:48] <K4ts> night
[00:07:35] <les_w> After snapping them sharpen the shank to a point on a green wheel. Makes great scriber points!
[00:25:53] <Jymmm> les_w Yeah, I kinds fear that (snapping)
[00:26:12] <Jymmm> les_w found these, but WAY more expensive
http://www.bitsbits.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_25
[00:32:58] <Jymmm> half and quarter round bit... thinking maybe for acrylic
[00:33:51] <Jymmm> les_w: You gotta watch "Everyday Italian" on the Food channel sometime.
[00:37:11] <Jymmm> les_w: If you look at this, I dont get the "tip size". Is that a flat on the end of the tool?
[01:17:27] <les_w> sorry was in the music room. Yeah the engraving cutters are much more durable
[01:17:46] <les_w> but you know what?
[01:18:07] <les_w> you can make em out of snapped cheap pcb cutters like you showed before
[01:21:08] <Jacky^> damn dvd !
[01:21:13] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ reboot
[01:30:43] <Jacky^> ouch
[01:30:56] <Jacky^> already 20 dec ?!
[01:33:59] <Jacky^> ufff
[01:34:49] <Jacky^> can anyone develop an algorithm to sto the time please ? :( ��
[01:35:02] <Jacky^> stop..
[01:35:10] <SWPadnos> death works, but there's no "undo"
[01:35:21] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ sighs
[01:49:39] <les_w> go fast. your time will not change, but everything else will go slower for you
[01:50:08] <Jacky^> les_w: uhm
[01:50:23] <Jacky^> im tryng to find the key
[01:50:27] <les_w> Special relativity jacky
[01:50:32] <les_w> heh
[01:50:35] <Jacky^> :)
[01:50:52] <Jacky^> need a key to decrypt
[01:51:38] <les_w> decrypt what?
[01:56:13] <Jacky^> eh, sorry
[01:56:19] <Jacky^> was thinking ..
[01:56:37] <Jacky^> sometimes the best reply is the silence
[01:56:42] <les_w> heh
[01:56:46] <Jacky^> :)
[01:57:26] <Jacky^> how is going there ?
[01:57:50] <les_w> oh fine. I was in the music room a bit. Came in to check email
[01:58:10] <les_w> I did not work today
[01:58:20] <Jacky^> good, found a good anti-spammer then ?
[01:58:24] <les_w> because power was off
[01:58:36] <les_w> no, but I need one
[01:58:46] <Jacky^> oh.. thats the winter
[01:58:51] <les_w> 25% of email is now spam
[01:59:04] <Jymmm> * Jymmm lol @ SWPadnos
[01:59:05] <Jacky^> next days will be for relax only
[01:59:09] <les_w> mostly drug
[01:59:49] <Jacky^> les_w: yes, I know
[02:00:03] <les_w> yes jacky I should take time off from work
[02:00:17] <Jymmm> scared me.... only Dec 19th here
[02:00:33] <Jacky^> les_w: WTG
[02:00:38] <Jacky^> :)
[02:00:58] <les_w> My son is coming up for a little while soon
[02:01:20] <Jacky^> les_w: you know what wtg mean ? :)
[02:01:29] <les_w> he has decided to quit playing guitar in a rock band and go to university
[02:01:37] <Jymmm> les_w lol
[02:01:39] <Jacky^> les_w: niceee
[02:01:50] <les_w> wtg? do not know
[02:01:58] <Jacky^> hehe
[02:02:18] <Jacky^> I just learn last evening what wtg mean
[02:02:20] <Jymmm> les_w how old is he?
[02:02:22] <les_w> what?
[02:02:23] <Jacky^> way to go
[02:02:30] <Jymmm> oh WTF Jacky^
[02:02:35] <Jacky^> hehe
[02:02:37] <Jacky^> :P
[02:02:42] <les_w> he is turning 20 in a few days
[02:02:48] <Jacky^> :D
[02:02:53] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[02:02:56] <les_w> what is it jacky???
[02:03:04] <Jymmm> WTG == Way To Go
[02:03:10] <les_w> ohhhh
[02:03:12] <les_w> duh
[02:03:18] <les_w> haha
[02:03:25] <Jymmm> * Jymmm smacks Jacky^ for such silliness
[02:03:32] <Jacky^> hahaha
[02:03:36] <Jacky^> :)
[02:04:01] <les_w> so...will have some more expenses soon?
[02:04:15] <Jacky^> les_w: anyway, I agreed, guitar, music, are a good choice
[02:04:16] <les_w> he said he has a job lined up teching guitar
[02:04:19] <Jymmm> les_w: see, I'm debating on those tiny cutters -vs- the onsrund ones.
[02:04:32] <les_w> teaching
[02:04:47] <les_w> jymmm just try a few
[02:05:04] <Jymmm> les_w: I want to vcarve acrylic, and engrave light metal/dense wood
[02:05:07] <Jacky^> we need new good guitars players
[02:05:34] <les_w> He said he gets $30/hr teaching
[02:05:37] <Jacky^> its good, really
[02:05:46] <les_w> ha I taught him!
[02:06:18] <Jacky^> les_w: yeah .. is possible
[02:07:02] <les_w> anyway, he now wants to go to the university his mother and I went to
[02:07:02] <Jymmm> les_w
http://www.bitsbits.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_10&products_id=117
[02:07:08] <les_w> so he is moving there
[02:07:17] <Jacky^> I think school its a really good thing
[02:07:51] <Jymmm> wow, University of Hillbillies and Rednecks is still arounf?
[02:07:59] <Jacky^> but we also need find the way to transfer our knowlededge to to next generation
[02:08:01] <les_w> yeah.
[02:08:06] <Jymmm> =)
[02:08:18] <les_w> PING bye bye 16.65
[02:08:30] <Jacky^> I just want to hope we'll have a les_w junior :P
[02:08:41] <les_w> actually University of Florida...that's where I went.
[02:08:46] <Jacky^> thats is really important
[02:08:51] <les_w> ha
[02:08:54] <Jacky^> :-)
[02:09:46] <Jacky^> for what I see the things are going in a different way
[02:09:55] <les_w> When I was in school there his mother was in the apartment above me.
[02:09:58] <Jacky^> here. I meant
[02:09:58] <Jymmm> les_w
http://www.store.yahoo.com/drillcity/6pcnewdocutr.html
[02:10:14] <Jymmm> KNOCK THREE TIMES ON THE CEILING IF YOU WANT ME
[02:10:15] <les_w> I liked the long legs of her roomate.
[02:10:29] <les_w> but somehow things turned out different
[02:10:58] <Jymmm> les_w: You gotta watch "Everyday Italian" on the Food channel sometime.
[02:11:07] <les_w> Long legged roomate ended up bridesmaid
[02:11:22] <les_w> I am cooking lasagna now
[02:11:26] <Jacky^> :)
[02:11:41] <Jacky^> Im ready to go in naples
[02:11:58] <Jacky^> I think I will go tomorrow
[02:12:21] <Jacky^> cant wait more
[02:12:29] <Jymmm> les_w Just watcht the show at least once, you'll understand.
[02:13:14] <les_w> what channel?
[02:13:26] <Jymmm> les_w: Food Channel/NEtwork
[02:13:37] <Jacky^> :)
[02:14:02] <Jacky^> Jymmm: the food its a great pleasure of life
[02:14:14] <Jymmm> Jacky^ =)
[02:14:15] <Jacky^> there are 2 things I like
[02:14:24] <Jacky^> the second is to travel :P
[02:14:48] <les_w> jacky when are you coming over here again?
[02:15:14] <Jacky^> les_w: I think its hard ..
[02:15:24] <Jacky^> ive been in L.A. in 2002
[02:15:34] <les_w> I remember
[02:15:41] <Jacky^> the next step would be canada
[02:15:55] <Jacky^> Ive an aunt there
[02:16:06] <Jacky^> sister of my mother
[02:16:14] <les_w> oh
[02:16:16] <Jacky^> about 78 years old ..
[02:16:26] <Jacky^> and many other cousin
[02:16:35] <Jacky^> jack :)
[02:16:39] <Jacky^> michael
[02:17:00] <Jacky^> theyre married, i done see they since 1980
[02:17:14] <Jacky^> I was a baby ..
[02:17:22] <les_w> I swear no more marriage
[02:17:24] <Jacky^> I really want to came there
[02:17:31] <les_w> 2 is enough ;)
[02:17:35] <Jacky^> hehe
[02:17:47] <Jymmm> les_w: Say it with me... I DONT. I Dont... I Dont.
[02:18:11] <les_w> anyway last one was 22 years younger
[02:18:16] <Jymmm> les_w: "Hell no, I wont go"
[02:18:17] <les_w> I was sooo tired
[02:18:22] <les_w> drag feet
[02:18:36] <Jymmm> before or after the mattiage?
[02:18:40] <Jymmm> marriage
[02:18:42] <les_w> both
[02:18:51] <les_w> even after divorce haha
[02:18:59] <Jymmm> I learn a LONG time ago to trust me instincts
[02:19:18] <les_w> what are you a pirate?
[02:19:27] <les_w> trust me insticts har
[02:20:03] <les_w> instincts
[02:20:05] <les_w> har
[02:20:10] <Jymmm> lol, no just a long tiring day is all. Jat 6pm had to call the post office to pickup packages
[02:20:29] <Jymmm> they forget all the time.
[02:20:52] <les_w> Jat 6 pm I head for the music room.
[02:20:59] <Jymmm> lol
[02:21:09] <Jymmm> you fucking with me?
[02:21:12] <Jymmm> =)
[02:21:15] <les_w> yeah.
[02:21:16] <les_w> hahaha
[02:21:33] <Jymmm> well, wont take much today, I tell ya.
[02:21:39] <Jymmm> drain bamage
[02:21:59] <Jymmm> what the hell is a fishtail bit good for?
[02:22:03] <Jymmm> 1/8"
[02:22:26] <les_w> DAMN. I smell something...just discovered I stepped in dog shit.
[02:22:26] <Jymmm> this looks like a good set
http://www.store.yahoo.com/drillcity/6pcnewdocutr.html
[02:22:30] <les_w> huh?
[02:22:46] <Jymmm> look at the last bit in that set...
[02:23:05] <Jymmm> --------------------/
[02:23:10] <Jymmm> -------------------\
[02:23:50] <les_w> his prices have doubled
[02:24:00] <Jymmm> yep, within the last month
[02:24:11] <les_w> last order I bought a bunch for $1 each
[02:24:44] <les_w> I have to change shoes. Dammit
[02:24:46] <Jacky^> les_w: this is what is happening here:
http://www.beppegrillo.it/english.php
[02:24:59] <Jacky^> but today were happy
[02:25:15] <Jacky^> at least we got Fazio goes away ..
[02:25:44] <Jacky^> thats the biggest christmas gift we was waiting
[02:26:07] <Jacky^> Fazio goes away
[02:26:16] <Jacky^> Italy can restart
[02:27:08] <les_w> Beppe Grillo runs for office?
[02:27:33] <Jacky^> les_w: thats the true side you can see in our conutry
[02:27:40] <Jacky^> country
[02:27:47] <les_w> I see
[02:27:56] <Jacky^> grillo has benn banned from any italian tv
[02:28:17] <les_w> oh well...you make nice electrospindles anyway
[02:28:19] <Jacky^> bat you may cane see he in cnn
[02:28:35] <Jacky^> damn
[02:28:43] <Jacky^> but you may can see him in cnn
[02:28:48] <Jacky^> :)
[02:28:57] <les_w> banned from tv??? how can they do that?
[02:29:15] <Jacky^> because here theres no freedom
[02:29:23] <Jacky^> no print freedom
[02:29:27] <Jacky^> no tv freedom
[02:29:29] <les_w> really
[02:29:32] <Jacky^> yeah
[02:30:03] <Jacky^> berlusconi control all networks
[02:30:56] <Jacky^> as God ...
[02:31:16] <les_w> We have some tv freedom, but our tv is junk.
[02:31:35] <les_w> what 50% commercials?
[02:32:02] <Jacky^> les_w: when you take the control on information, you take the control of the world
[02:32:11] <les_w> yes
[02:32:13] <les_w> right
[02:32:14] <Jymmm> les_w eve 300pcs $315
[02:32:16] <Jymmm> even
[02:32:24] <les_w> better
[02:32:26] <Jymmm> http://www.store.yahoo.com/drillcity/monspec1.html
[02:32:39] <Jacky^> we've 6 principal TV channels
[02:32:57] <Jymmm> Jacky^: les_w has 600 channels
[02:32:57] <Jacky^> where, 50 % are under the control of our 1st minister
[02:33:20] <Jacky^> Jymmm: thats not so important ..
[02:33:28] <les_w> yeah lots of channels..sat tv
[02:33:29] <Jacky^> may you are more free
[02:33:47] <les_w> may be
[02:33:58] <Jacky^> ok, we also have about 200 private televisions
[02:34:08] <Jymmm> les_w: this looks like a better deal -->
http://www.store.yahoo.com/drillcity/10comhobkit.html
[02:34:16] <les_w> we have a little problem with a certain guy and our bill of rights and due process that's all
[02:34:18] <Jacky^> but the power comes when you can control 70 % of these
[02:34:27] <Jacky^> and print freedom too
[02:34:29] <les_w> yes
[02:34:58] <Jacky^> we are not free*
[02:35:01] <Jymmm> les_w fucking bush (and where that would usually be a good thing, in this case it's a bad one)
[02:35:04] <Jacky^> really
[02:35:23] <Jymmm> damn partriot act should have never come into existance.
[02:35:29] <les_w> I know that guy at DBC...it was only a couple miles from where I worked
[02:35:42] <Jacky^> bah Patrioct act its a good thing
[02:35:48] <Jacky^> I guess it is
[02:36:02] <Jymmm> Jacky^ fuck no it's not. there are other methods to accomplish the same thing.
[02:36:05] <Jacky^> depend on what results it produce
[02:36:26] <les_w> We think patriot act takes away freedom
[02:36:38] <Jacky^> I just see anything US do EU came back to do the same thing
[02:36:46] <Jymmm> it does les, but it does far more than that as well.
[02:36:52] <Jymmm> all bad
[02:36:54] <Jacky^> sometime its right, sometime not
[02:37:27] <les_w> now big controversy over survellance
[02:37:35] <les_w> on the news today
[02:37:45] <les_w> also a plane crash in miami
[02:37:50] <Jymmm> les_w: Due to the PAtriot Act, if you buy a computer from Dell, they HAVE to ask what you are going to use it for.
[02:38:14] <les_w> bleh
[02:38:21] <Jacky^> yeah, really bad
[02:38:22] <Jymmm> les_w it now takes 3 pcs of ID to open a saving account. Hell I barely have one, much less three.
[02:38:34] <Jymmm> les_w all due to the PA
[02:38:51] <Jymmm> les_w there was som much written/hidden in it, which makes it bad.
[02:39:35] <les_w> I don't have 3 id
[02:39:47] <Jymmm> exactly
[02:40:01] <les_w> tattoo ss# on forehead!
[02:40:19] <Jymmm> oh dont get me start on SSN
[02:40:46] <Jacky^> nahh relax
[02:40:52] <Jacky^> :-)
[02:41:02] <les_w> I paid a huge amount into that
[02:41:10] <les_w> never see a peeny i'll bet
[02:41:36] <les_w> penny
[02:41:46] <les_w> or a peeny either
[02:42:10] <Jymmm> I doubt I ever live that's for sure.
[02:42:14] <les_w> I no se a peeny of it!
[02:42:25] <Jacky^> I believe
[02:43:30] <les_w> Here's how it works...anywhere...
[02:43:44] <Jacky^> yeah
[02:43:55] <les_w> very rich powerful people will take your money and make you a slave.
[02:44:40] <les_w> As ax time comes up I will be thinking more about this
[02:44:48] <les_w> tax
[02:44:51] <les_w> ax too
[02:44:53] <les_w> haha
[02:44:55] <Jymmm> lol
[02:44:58] <Jacky^> les_w: peoples who need to make money today noo need to be cleaver
[02:45:16] <les_w> I try
[02:45:21] <Jacky^> they just need an image (not sure italian we say immagina)
[02:45:24] <les_w> some years starve
[02:45:26] <Jacky^> a scoop
[02:45:31] <Jacky^> appearence
[02:45:34] <les_w> this year I but fancy cars
[02:45:40] <les_w> next year ?
[02:46:00] <Jymmm> pre owned?
[02:46:05] <les_w> buy
[02:46:22] <les_w> must get my computer glasses
[02:46:44] <les_w> have on bifocals...can see neither keyboard nor screen
[02:46:50] <Jymmm> you computer wears glasses?
[02:47:13] <les_w> ha
[02:47:29] <les_w> AGGH forgot lasagna
[02:47:36] <Jacky^> :D
[02:47:46] <les_w> may be charcoal now
[02:47:47] <les_w> bbiab
[02:47:47] <Jymmm> I know you've been working on secret project, but never imagined coputer eyesite.
[02:47:48] <Jymmm> l
[02:47:48] <les_w> !
[02:47:49] <Jymmm> k
[02:53:36] <Jacky^> my eyes are closing *_*
[02:53:44] <Jacky^> night Jymmm , les_w
[02:53:51] <Jacky^> night all
[02:54:08] <Jacky^> Jacky^ is now known as Jacky^afk
[02:54:18] <Jymmm> nite Jacky^afk
[02:54:25] <Jacky^afk> night
[03:00:02] <les_w> night
[03:00:09] <les_w> lasagna was ok
[03:00:17] <les_w> toasted to a golden black
[03:00:47] <les_w> so let's see...what did I accomplish today?
[03:01:03] <Jymmm> yum
[03:01:10] <les_w> I burned my lasagna and stepped in dog shit.
[03:01:15] <les_w> great!
[03:01:28] <Jymmm> there's always boose to fall back upon
[03:01:33] <les_w> haha
[03:51:14] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A ltns
[03:51:20] <A-L-P-H-A> really?
[03:51:27] <A-L-P-H-A> I haven't been gone that long.
[03:51:43] <A-L-P-H-A> my HD died, and exams and crap... so I haven't been around.
[03:51:44] <Jymmm> seems like it at least.
[03:51:51] <Jymmm> ah, bummer.
[03:52:06] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, so I replaced it with a 200gig 16meg cache WD drive.
[03:52:18] <A-L-P-H-A> coupled with my Raid 0, 400gig array. :)
[03:52:27] <Jymmm> cool
[03:52:32] <A-L-P-H-A> nice and smooth operation... at least for like another 2.5years i hope.
[03:54:05] <Jymmm> I avoid WD these days, along with maxtor
[03:54:24] <Jymmm> seagate now =)
[03:57:13] <A-L-P-H-A> my raid 0 is seagate.
[03:57:29] <A-L-P-H-A> but WD and Maxtor are cheap... I would have bought seagate, but the 200giger was given to me.
[03:57:34] <A-L-P-H-A> <shrug> so who am I to complain?
[04:00:34] <Jymmm> I hear ya. just after 5 maxtors dieing on me withing 3 months
[04:03:55] <CIA-6> 03cradek * 10emc2/TODO: I think this needs to be work.
[04:04:37] <cradek> well, that's kind of like what I meant to type, only not english
[04:20:35] <SWP_Away> engrish
[04:20:41] <Jymmm> that too
[04:20:51] <Jymmm> err I meant .... that two
[04:21:01] <SWP_Away> that arso
[05:41:18] <CIA-6> 03paul_c * 10emc2-auto/wiki/ (17 files in 13 dirs): "Auto update wiki from a cron job. Tue Dec 20 05:30:01 GMT 2005 "
[06:36:05] <K`zan> Qcad is getting cooler :-) (I'm starting to learn how to use it :-).
[06:41:21] <Jymmm> coo, then you can teach everyone else =)
[07:00:22] <Jymmm> Ya know, 1/8" shank tools are expensive ~$20. I'm wondering how difficult it would be to make some on my own.
[07:01:02] <Jymmm> like this as example -->
http://www.bitsbits.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_24&products_id=216
[07:14:40] <K`zan> I think Y'all inspired me (esp cradek :-):
http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/CNC/GantryRouterProject/
[07:57:59] <anonimasu> Jymmm: shouldnt be impossible
[07:57:59] <anonimasu> but, it depends on what you grind from
[07:58:28] <anonimasu> I tried it once but the tool got soft..
[07:58:38] <anonimasu> maybe I should have used a HSS blank instead..
[08:04:07] <Jymmm> I'm thinking carbon
[08:04:53] <Jymmm> like buy a length of carbon steel 1/8" rod
[08:06:39] <anonimasu> maybe drillrod or something you can harden
[08:06:49] <anonimasu> hss should be ok
[08:07:07] <Jymmm> I want it to have a good lifetime
[08:07:18] <Jymmm> carbon can't be that expensive
[08:07:23] <anonimasu> hss has plenty of life.
[08:07:26] <Jymmm> the micrograin stuff
[08:07:30] <anonimasu> depends on what you cut..
[08:07:42] <Jymmm> we are talking smaller than 1/8" here
[08:07:54] <anonimasu> or just buy a good wheel and make it out of carbide.
[08:07:58] <Jymmm> at 30k rpm... hss just dont seem right
[08:08:20] <anonimasu> what is your chipload?
[08:08:51] <Jymmm> I mean if I make my own I wnat them to last
[08:09:15] <Jymmm> and be able to resharpen them
[08:09:24] <anonimasu> the tools I grind for the lathe lasts..
[08:09:33] <anonimasu> why cant you resharpen hss?
[08:09:42] <Jymmm> did you see that bit I was talking about?
[08:10:02] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:10:15] <Jymmm> tiny lil thing.
[08:10:58] <anonimasu> 6mm is large :)
[08:11:43] <Jymmm> it's quarter round
[08:11:52] <anonimasu> yes?
[08:11:56] <Jymmm> nm
[08:12:23] <anonimasu> it shouldnt be a problem anyway..
[08:12:31] <anonimasu> if you've got cash to spare you can always grind it in carbide.
[08:13:19] <anonimasu> check the hardness of that rod you are talking about and the hardness of HSS
[08:13:43] <anonimasu> and bear in mind that carbide is 6 times as expensive and that you need a diamond wheel for grinding it
[08:14:22] <anonimasu> * anonimasu thinks a grinder would be a cool cnc project
[08:15:02] <Jymmm> sounds tedious
[08:15:11] <Jymmm> lots of axis
[08:15:47] <anonimasu> yeah like 6
[08:15:57] <Jymmm> if were lucky =)
[08:16:07] <anonimasu> x,y,z,3
[08:16:09] <anonimasu> r
[08:16:11] <anonimasu> and a
[08:17:21] <anonimasu> but that's without the dressing stone..
[08:17:42] <anonimasu> err wheel dresser
[08:17:49] <anonimasu> but that can be ran from something else
[08:18:05] <anonimasu> I think you need very accurate way to measure the wheel also :)
[08:18:13] <anonimasu> to avoid (
[08:18:28] <Jymmm> or )
[08:18:35] <anonimasu> yep
[08:18:36] <Jymmm> or even {
[08:18:38] <Jymmm> lol
[08:18:46] <anonimasu> it'd be a cool machine
[08:18:59] <anonimasu> now if I just get my mill finished.
[08:19:14] <anonimasu> *waits for new screws*
[08:19:27] <anonimasu> I've got a robot as a toy project :)
[08:19:35] <anonimasu> from before
[08:19:44] <Jymmm> http://store.yahoo.com/drillcity/precrepmac.html
[08:20:10] <anonimasu> we have a manual one at work
[08:20:22] <anonimasu> not for grinding endmills though
[08:20:23] <anonimasu> just drills
[08:21:06] <Jymmm> I need to figure out a holder
[08:21:15] <Jymmm> to keep specific angles
[08:22:23] <anonimasu> L\
[08:22:31] <anonimasu> and a setscrew..
[08:22:49] <anonimasu> or a ) to grab the bit
[08:23:09] <anonimasu> would that be entirely stupid?
[08:23:22] <Jymmm> more like a slab of metal as a clamp
[08:23:33] <Jymmm> then adj the slab
[08:24:01] <Jymmm> I dont want a curved bit when I'm done
[08:24:14] <Jymmm> ......-------......
[08:24:19] <anonimasu> how would that make your bit curved?
[08:25:00] <Jymmm> heat it too much, then apply pressure inconsistantly
[08:25:02] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[08:25:13] <anonimasu> have you tried grinding any tool?
[08:25:40] <Jymmm> that sorta crap, pluse still need to fingure out a way to rotate the stock
[08:25:49] <Jymmm> not machine tooling
[08:26:34] <anonimasu> ok
[08:26:46] <anonimasu> heat usually isnt a big trouble
[08:27:10] <Jymmm> you've never seen what I can do wiht an abngle grinder =)
[08:27:13] <anonimasu> you feel when you are too agressove :)
[08:27:53] <Jymmm> * Jymmm with angle grinder in hand is to see how many yards with can make the sparks fly this time!
[08:28:00] <anonimasu> haha
[08:28:00] <anonimasu> ok
[08:28:08] <anonimasu> I am not taling about a angle grinder though
[08:28:11] <Jymmm> and I'm goin for 40 yards next time
[08:28:38] <anonimasu> dressing wheel ;)
[08:29:11] <Jymmm> gimme a pic or url of a small/cheap one
[08:29:56] <anonimasu> ..
[08:30:47] <anonimasu> maybe you should buy bits ^_^
[08:32:40] <Jymmm> * Jymmm is tired.... callign it a night
[08:32:58] <Jymmm> chat at ya later anonimasu
[08:34:01] <anonimasu> yeah
[08:34:03] <anonimasu> laters
[11:59:45] <A-L-P-H-A> I've had lamb for the last 3 days... argh.
[13:04:45] <cradek> hey skunkworks
[13:04:50] <cradek> is per-axis max accel honored when jogging?
[13:05:47] <skunkworks> Good question - I don't know. I got used to not using the jog because of the initial following errors that really showed up while jogging.
[13:05:48] <alex_joni> morning chris
[13:06:00] <skunkworks> I can have dad try it this morning.
[13:07:12] <cradek> hi alex
[13:07:39] <skunkworks> did my bug report make sense otherwise?
[13:08:01] <alex_joni> it did to me
[13:08:24] <alex_joni> and I think chris got it too, now that he's asking specifics
[13:08:37] <alex_joni> like what Planner is broken ;)
[13:09:00] <cradek> yes, I've seen the bug too with my rotary axis
[13:09:19] <cradek> I seem to remember that it would work right when jogging but not for coordinated moves
[13:09:36] <cradek> but that was a long time ago
[13:09:50] <skunkworks> Ok - I wonder if dad is up ;)
[13:09:56] <cradek> haha
[13:10:33] <cradek> I'll be around if you want to ask later!
[13:11:07] <skunkworks> Thanks again - you guys are great. (and thanks for puting up with me)
[13:11:47] <cradek> hey we appreciate the bug reports, especially right now
[13:11:52] <alex_joni> cradek: what movie did you get from me?
[13:11:55] <cradek> we're all excited to get a good emc2-0 release
[13:12:09] <cradek> HPIM9655
[13:12:16] <alex_joni> did you look at it?
[13:12:19] <cradek> yep
[13:12:23] <alex_joni> liked it?
[13:12:30] <cradek> are the arm and the table both moving?
[13:12:34] <alex_joni> yup
[13:12:46] <alex_joni> robot = 6 axes, one long longitudinal, one vertical
[13:12:51] <alex_joni> and the table 2 axes
[13:12:55] <alex_joni> so 10 coordinated
[13:13:03] <cradek> very cool
[13:13:13] <cradek> is that a machine your company makes?
[13:13:46] <alex_joni> yup
[13:13:52] <alex_joni> that one was installed by me
[13:14:08] <alex_joni> and programmed, not the program it's now doing.. but some earlier product
[13:15:02] <cradek> slick
[13:16:15] <skunkworks> is this done with emc and kenimatics (yes I butchered that spelling)
[13:16:34] <cradek> nope
[13:16:36] <cradek> I wish
[13:17:24] <cradek> alex_joni: did you see the log of us trying to help Sed_ yesterday?
[13:17:31] <cradek> alex_joni: his amps won't enable
[13:17:48] <cradek> alex_joni: I think the hal is set up right - maybe digital outs on stg2 don't work?
[13:21:12] <A-L-P-H-A> Stargate Atlantis S02E15 HDTV XviD-TvD -
http://www.mininova.org/get/181367
[13:22:26] <alex_joni> cradek: not yet, was it emc-devel? or emc?
[13:22:36] <alex_joni> btw, Till is finally running his machine with a STG2
[13:22:41] <alex_joni> so I'd think it's ok
[13:26:11] <cradek> emc2-cvs
[13:26:33] <alex_joni> what's that?
[13:26:39] <cradek> alex_joni: this is the guy in hawaii that you helped friday night
[13:26:49] <alex_joni> I know.. but what channel was this on?
[13:27:02] <cradek> oh duh, sorry
[13:27:04] <alex_joni> I only have loggers in #emc and #emc-devel
[13:27:05] <cradek> probably #emc
[13:27:13] <alex_joni> :P
[13:27:13] <alex_joni> np
[13:27:41] <cradek> around 1700UTC
[13:27:48] <alex_joni> ok
[13:28:10] <cradek> bbl, going to work
[13:36:57] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html
[14:08:07] <fenn> jymmm you probably won't find any blank hss 1/8" prehardened rod.. i'd suggest using surplus PCB drill bits for raw material
[14:08:29] <fenn> or get air-hardening drillrod from enco or somewhere
[14:09:08] <Jymmm> ok
[14:09:15] <fenn> carbide might be too brittle..
[14:09:32] <Jymmm> too brittle for?
[14:09:52] <fenn> well, depending on what material you're cutting, what machine you're using
[14:10:05] <fenn> tool chatter really kills carbide bits
[14:10:24] <Jymmm> acrylic and dense wood
[14:10:30] <Jymmm> very dense wood
[14:10:36] <Jymmm> ironwood
[14:10:36] <fenn> carbide will probably be fine
[14:10:46] <fenn> wood = hard styrofoam
[14:11:05] <Jymmm> not ironwood, recommended to use carbide cutting tools
[14:11:12] <fenn> really
[14:11:17] <Jymmm> 184% harder than oak
[14:11:51] <Jymmm> I think it got it's name for a reason =)
[14:12:33] <fenn> may i ask why you're using it?
[14:12:55] <Jymmm> what, the material or the cutter?
[14:13:03] <fenn> the material
[14:13:33] <Jymmm> engraving
[14:13:50] <Jymmm> has a beautiful grain in it
[14:25:47] <K4ts> hello
[15:18:21] <Jacky^afk> Jacky^afk is now known as Jacky^
[15:18:24] <Jacky^> morning
[15:19:10] <Jymmm> morning
[15:19:19] <Jacky^> hi Jymmm
[15:19:28] <Jymmm> DOS 2d/3d CAD
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hub/3650/bcadrev.html
[15:20:50] <Jacky^> interesting :-)
[15:22:51] <Jacky^> les_w:
http://airguitar.tml.hut.fi/tech.html
[15:23:13] <Jacky^> runs on a Linux ;)
[15:50:38] <skunkworks> cradek Ok - g1 and g0 does not use the max_acceleration in each axis BUT jogging the machine seems to.
[15:50:48] <cradek> AHA
[15:51:07] <cradek> thanks for testing that
[15:51:24] <skunkworks> no problem - does that make sense with what you are seeing?
[15:51:49] <cradek> yes, the code that honors the per-axis accel for coordinated motion ... isn't there at all
[15:51:56] <cradek> it was never written
[15:52:02] <skunkworks> cool ;) oops
[15:54:11] <rayh> Right. Matt wrote the max vel stuff but we could not figure out an easy way to honor accel in coordinated
[15:54:44] <cradek> I think I understand the math, but writing it may be another story
[15:54:54] <cradek> I will dig into this a bit
[15:56:05] <cradek> skunkworks: are you using an unmodified core-stepper.hal?
[15:56:47] <cradek> oh look, this is all making sense
[15:57:05] <cradek> I bet the following errors you got at low feeds (this other bug report) happened when jogging Z
[15:57:22] <cradek> no, wait, jogging honors accel
[15:57:23] <cradek> forget it
[15:58:03] <cradek> I bet low accels will cause following errors on coordinated moves, since emc requests accels higher than stepgen allows
[15:59:05] <skunkworks> the following errors stopped when we added the fudge facter in the stepgen
[15:59:40] <skunkworks> (max_accelerataion a few percentages higher in the stepgen vs the ini)
[16:02:57] <cradek> maybe I still don't understand the problem then
[16:03:10] <cradek> say one axis can accel at 10x another
[16:03:23] <cradek> err start over
[16:03:34] <cradek> say X accels at 10 and Y at 1
[16:03:48] <cradek> you have a coordinated move in XY that is almost entirely in Y
[16:04:10] <cradek> I think emc will request that that Y accel at nearly the TRAJ accel (10)
[16:04:25] <cradek> stepgen reads its maxaccels for Y from the AXIS section
[16:04:32] <cradek> so it only accels at 1
[16:04:40] <cradek> this would quickly cause a following error
[16:05:21] <cradek> if you fudge Y so stepgen will do 1.1 or 1.2, that's still not usually going to fix this problem
[16:05:41] <cradek> although depending on the numbers, it might make it a little better.
[16:05:58] <skunkworks> when we where testing just now we had the default set to 15 - x and y where set to 15 and z was set to 5 -I was getting z following errors because the stepgen was set for 10
[16:06:25] <cradek> ok that's consistent with my thinking
[16:06:48] <cradek> so what did you do to make the following errors stop?
[16:13:16] <skunkworks> for now we are just running every axis at 5 ips^2
[16:13:28] <skunkworks> (default accelleration set at 5)
[16:14:12] <skunkworks> until this is fixed - then we can run each axis at the acceleration we want 15,15,5
[16:14:18] <cradek> ok
[16:18:55] <skunkworks> I will add to the bug report that jogging seems to honor the individual axis's acceleration
[16:19:04] <cradek> ok thank you
[16:23:39] <skunkworks> done - thanks again. This is really shaping up.
[16:23:49] <cradek> welcome
[16:29:56] <fenn> cradek: i wouldn't worry about non-trivial cases while fixing the acceleration.. emc doesn't actually have the infrastructure to support complex kinematics
[16:30:13] <fenn> so an axis accel == a joint accel
[16:30:40] <cradek> oh I wasn't going to worry about that :-)
[16:30:45] <fenn> right :)
[16:30:49] <cradek> I was going to fix the triv case, just like I did for velocity
[16:31:02] <cradek> someone else can fix the whole thing right later if we want
[16:31:09] <fenn> working on it
[16:31:26] <fenn> it involves deleting all of the emc code though.. so i dont know if that counts as fixing it
[16:31:27] <cradek> I would like everything to be right for trivkins (including rotary axes)
[16:31:35] <fenn> nah can't do it
[16:31:41] <fenn> rotary axes aren't triv kins
[16:32:02] <cradek> well we all know the problem with honoring the F word on rotary axes
[16:32:27] <cradek> but there's no reason why we can't honor vel/accel in deg/sec
[16:32:45] <fenn> yeah F doesn't make sense if you don't know the distance of the tool from the center of the rotary table
[16:33:08] <cradek> well it does, as long as you're not moving the rotary
[16:33:17] <cradek> if you're using it for indexing, everything is fine
[16:33:34] <fenn> (i meant for moving the rotary axis)
[16:33:41] <cradek> sure
[16:33:52] <fenn> emc doesn't respect accel limits for rotary axes?
[16:34:09] <cradek> emc doesn't respect accel limits for any axis
[16:34:12] <fenn> i mean it should be the same thing.. such and such counts/sec/sec
[16:34:16] <fenn> oh heh right
[16:34:23] <cradek> seriously
[16:34:32] <cradek> it only works right if they're all the same
[16:34:46] <fenn> yeah that's bad
[16:34:58] <fenn> i never noticed cause all mine are the same
[16:35:06] <cradek> I think that's a typical case
[16:35:20] <cradek> but with rotary, one axis has in/sec^2 and the other deg/sec^2
[16:35:27] <cradek> if you set both of those to the same accel, something isn't going to work right
[16:35:46] <fenn> if it comes out to the same number of steps/sec^2 it should
[16:35:53] <cradek> it never does :-)
[16:36:05] <fenn> right
[16:36:16] <cradek> not anywhere close usually
[16:36:25] <fenn> it doesn't?
[16:36:51] <cradek> umm wait
[16:37:07] <cradek> accels are not in steps/sec^2, they're in user-units/sec^2
[16:37:10] <fenn> right
[16:37:19] <cradek> you want a similar accel in steps/sec^2
[16:37:35] <fenn> sorry i'm confusing things
[16:37:36] <cradek> so what you would need is user-units/step to be similar for the linear and rotary
[16:37:47] <cradek> and usually they're not at all close
[16:38:35] <cradek> for example the sherline ini has scale of 16000 for XYZ and 160 for A
[16:38:58] <cradek> so assuming everything else works, the A is going to take 100x as long to accel up to the same steps/sec value
[16:39:58] <fenn> but you would have a much higher accel value for the A axis
[16:40:12] <cradek> right, but per-axis accel doesn't work
[16:40:20] <cradek> that's what we're talking about!
[16:40:26] <fenn> ok
[16:40:48] <cradek> sorry, I didn't mean to sound snippy there
[16:41:14] <fenn> so you get following errors on XYZ because your max accel is set high to allow A to accel 1000degrees/sec^2
[16:41:26] <fenn> and it tries to accel X at 1000 in/sec/sec
[16:41:41] <cradek> yes, it would
[16:42:16] <cradek> I think this (sort of) worked in emc1 because the pid loop kept those accels down
[16:42:27] <fenn> the trajectory planner needs to get the per-axis accels
[16:42:40] <fenn> it cant use a single global value and get any kind of performance
[16:43:09] <cradek> well I'm thinking of passing in the accel from canon, just like the vel is passed in
[16:43:18] <cradek> there's already a message for it
[16:43:22] <cradek> but I'm not sure how it's used
[16:43:55] <cradek> the only other alternative is to have the tp do geometry calculations, and there's no need for that to be in rt
[16:44:51] <fenn> they have A in radians in the sherline.. that's probably why it kinda works
[16:45:38] <fenn> INPUT_SCALE = 9145.8
[16:45:51] <fenn> not too far off from 16000
[16:45:51] <cradek> bdi4.30 has it in degrees
[16:59:17] <rayh> <cradek> right, but per-axis accel doesn't work
[16:59:23] <rayh> isn't quite correct.
[16:59:35] <cradek> ... in coordinated motion
[16:59:43] <rayh> As skunkworks just said it does for individual jogs
[16:59:46] <rayh> Right.
[17:00:04] <cradek> I do understand that
[17:00:14] <rayh> And that is why we could get away with some faster stuff in the sherline definitions.
[17:00:51] <cradek> I don't understand what you mean
[17:01:27] <rayh> It sure would be nice if you could figure out a way to make coordinated motion honor that accel as well.
[17:02:05] <cradek> I know what has to be done, I'm just nervous about doing it
[17:02:23] <cradek> right now I'm trying to figure out why I don't get following error
[17:02:26] <rayh> fenn: the radian definition was an old one, should be long gone by now.
[17:02:48] <rayh> fe on the rotary?
[17:02:56] <cradek> I've set AXIS_2/MAX_ACCEL to 1, MDI a Z move, and it accels at 20
[17:03:03] <cradek> but following error doesn't ramp like I expect
[17:03:27] <rayh> what are the fe settings in the ini?
[17:03:44] <cradek> doesn't matter right now, I'm looking at the halscope signal
[17:04:11] <rayh> I saw it ramping here with univstep card
[17:04:37] <rayh> That's why I wanted to combine fe and fe ramp and watch the diff.
[17:07:04] <cradek> ok, I see, core_sim doesn't get those ini values like core_stepper does
[17:21:24] <Jymmm> If anyone knows... do geckos ABSOLUTELY prevent mid-band resonance in steppers?
[17:31:50] <jepler> I just got to see halscope on chris's machine. that's pretty neat software!
[17:33:35] <cradek> you should tell jmk - it makes him blush
[17:34:19] <jepler> if he was here I'd ask him about the possibility of using it to get position information for AXIS' backplot, like we were talking about earlier
[17:34:50] <cradek> you do have the source...
[17:42:00] <jepler> (or is that "AXIS's backplot"?)
[17:42:44] <cradek> AXIS's
[17:43:13] <cradek> see strunk & white page ... 1
[17:43:17] <cradek> (seriously)
[17:43:29] <cradek> (I just looked)
[17:55:23] <skunkworks> jymmm - I though microstepping drive get rid of mid-band resonance. We usually run our compumotor drives at 1000 steps and have not had any problems with the stepper loosing it. even with no load/dampener on the stepper (flywheel). Compared to runnning 200/400 steps - definatly seen that loose it at certian rpms
[18:00:08] <skunkworks> another goofy problem. if you type in two of the same moves one right after another it looses the feed.
[18:00:12] <skunkworks> mdi
[18:00:20] <skunkworks> x30
[18:00:27] <skunkworks> x30
[18:00:46] <skunkworks> now you get a error "you need a feed rate with a g1 command" or something like that
[18:01:24] <skunkworks> just a littl odd. "why would anyone do that" ;)
[18:01:25] <Jymmm> skunkworks microstepping reduces the mid-band, not prevents it. What Mariss does in his drives is toss in an 80 deg lag. But What I'm trying to find out is this the all time perfect solution, or best effort sorta thing.
[18:02:10] <skunkworks> ah - I should not have said "get rid of"
[18:03:41] <fenn> jymmm how can you get rid of resonance if you are feeding at a resonant frequency?
[18:04:24] <Jymmm> fenn: What Mariss does in his drives is toss in an 80 deg lag. But What I'm trying to find out is this the all time perfect solution, or best effort sorta thing.
[18:04:33] <fenn> Jymmm: wtf does that mean?
[18:05:01] <fenn> what does "toss in an 80 degree lag" mean
[18:05:17] <fenn> it changes the feedrate of the motor?
[18:06:28] <Jymmm> Midband resonance results from a system phase lag of 180 degrees. The
[18:06:28] <Jymmm> step motor has an inheirent 90 degree lag between torque and position.
[18:06:38] <Jymmm> Our drives add a phase-lead component of about 80 degrees to the
[18:06:39] <Jymmm> system loop phase lag. This is a derivative component, specifically a
[18:06:39] <Jymmm> rate of load change sense. This makes the drive immune to midband
[18:06:39] <Jymmm> instability.
[18:07:06] <Jymmm> quoting Mariss directly.
[18:07:08] <SWPadnos> copied directly from Mariss' email (complete with spelling error ;) )
[18:07:40] <SWPadnos> using the word "absolutely" or "never" can get you into trouble
[18:08:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Doens't matter when you're looking for clarification and have asked three times so far. without a "straight answer".
[18:08:42] <Jymmm> I just need to hear it from the horses mouth.
[18:08:58] <SWP_Away> well - as the drive manufacturer, Mariss can't say that his drive ABSOLUTELY eliminates midband resonances
[18:09:12] <SWP_Away> but note that he did say that the drive is immune to midband instability
[18:09:57] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: Sure he can (if it does), like I said I just want to hear it from the horses mouth.
[18:10:54] <Jymmm> SWPadnos ok (pulling hairs here), ALL drives are immune to it, as it never effects the drive, it effects the motor.
[18:11:43] <SWP_Away> sure ;)
[18:11:56] <SWP_Away> yo ucould always try them
[18:12:17] <Jymmm> try what, gecko stepper drives?
[18:12:21] <SWP_Away> yes
[18:12:37] <Jymmm> SWP_Away you read the thread, I shouldn't have to answer that one.
[18:12:46] <SWP_Away> also, what voltage are you using with the Xylotex? (it's limited to 36V, right)
[18:13:22] <SWP_Away> "2) Can they help prevent my gantry router from being a tuning fork?"
[18:13:38] <SWP_Away> that sounds to me like you're considering buying them for your gantry router
[18:13:59] <Jymmm> SWP_Away that was a 2nd question, in clarification of a statment on his website.
[18:14:30] <Jymmm> SWP_Away I also said I'm not going to throw money at the problem if I dont know what the cause is either.
[18:14:47] <SWP_Away> sure
[18:15:10] <SWP_Away> I was going to say - he's got a great return policy if you breask the drives - he may be willing to let you experiment and return them if it doesn't work
[18:15:14] <SWP_Away> break
[18:15:20] <Jymmm> Mariss has a way with words much of the time... I'm just looking for the straightline here.
[18:16:04] <SWP_Away> I don't think he can answer your absolutes, because someone will make a machine out of popsicle sticks, then refer back to that email of his and complain that there's vibration
[18:16:31] <Jymmm> forget the virbartion part, it's been answered.
[18:17:02] <Jymmm> I still need clarification on the statment of "mid-band resonance"
[18:17:36] <Jymmm> "Mid-band resonance damping"
[18:17:50] <fenn> so.. the gecko sends an uneven pulse train when it's at the resonant frequency to help break up the resonance?
[18:18:06] <SWP_Away> did you watch the video codeSuidae linked to?
[18:18:14] <fenn> which makes me wonder, how does it know it's resonating..
[18:18:21] <Jymmm> fenn ask Mariss. I've told you what he's said. That's all I know.
[18:18:47] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: And the video didn't use a gecko drive either.
[18:18:52] <SWP_Away> the resonance occurs when the stepper "clicks" to the next position
[18:19:05] <SWP_Away> no - but it showed two different types of resonance
[18:19:09] <SWP_Away> issues
[18:19:14] <fenn> swp the drive has no way to know what position it's in
[18:19:15] <Jymmm> SWP_Away That's not what Mariss said. He said it's when it's 180 deg
[18:19:33] <fenn> swp it can tell the rotor angle between steps, but not more than that
[18:20:02] <SWP_Away> ok -I can't discuss motor phase angles intelligently - that would be the tunnel-vision leading the blind
[18:20:09] <fenn> heh
[18:20:18] <SWP_Away> however - I can tell you about how a stepper works, and why resonance occurs
[18:20:29] <SWP_Away> fenn - watch this video:
[18:20:35] <SWP_Away> http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/video_demos/mechatronics/stepper_motor_acceleration.wmv
[18:20:40] <SWP_Away> if you can do wmv, that is
[18:21:28] <SWP_Away> noticve how the rotor wobbles at every step
[18:21:53] <Jymmm> SWP_Away This is all physics. Mariss intriduces an 80 deg lag which he state offer mid-band dampening. Now, is 80 deg lag enough under all cercumstance to prevent the stepper from stalling, _OR_ will it prevent stepper from stalling 99.9999% of the time. THAT's what I would like to know.
[18:22:07] <SWP_Away> 99.9999% of the time
[18:22:17] <SWP_Away> maybe even with a few more 9's added
[18:22:53] <fenn> cool video
[18:23:00] <SWP_Away> but that's over all speeds, all motors, and all machine designs
[18:23:10] <Jymmm> SWP_Away But you can't say why, He can. I'm not putting down his drives, just need clear facts to decide which way to go at this point.
[18:23:13] <SWP_Away> for a given motor, it may be 100% of the time
[18:23:25] <SWP_Away> for a given machine it may be 100%
[18:23:27] <Jymmm> primarily, it's my ignorance I need reoslution of.
[18:23:59] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: Well instead of taking your educated guesses, I want authoritive calrification.
[18:24:10] <Jymmm> less the typos =)
[18:24:20] <SWP_Away> heh
[18:24:59] <SWP_Away> just ask mariss - if you tune the drive properly, will there be *NO* resonance, and if you can't get it tuned correctly, can you return it?
[18:25:17] <Jymmm> there is no tuning a stepper,
[18:25:25] <Jymmm> you tune a servo =)
[18:25:37] <SWP_Away> there is tuning for the resonance damping circuit
[18:25:47] <fenn> seems my mill likes to go "brrrrt" and lose steps when i'm running it with slow accels
[18:25:57] <SWP_Away> you did get his response saying that your motors will turn like servos, right?
[18:26:23] <SWP_Away> "as smoothly as servos"
[18:26:30] <fenn> hah
[18:26:51] <Jymmm> SWPadnos that was in respect to the low-speed resonace. You're confusing the two things =)
[18:26:52] <fenn> gotta love marketing
[18:26:53] <SWP_Away> well - a stepper is essentially the same thing as a BLDC or AC servo
[18:27:15] <Jymmm> which is what fenn is describing
[18:27:22] <SWP_Away> ok - I haven't seen any questions since that one was answered
[18:27:34] <Jymmm> the low-speed resonce has already be answered and filed in the archives.
[18:28:03] <Jymmm> what is left is mid-band resonace... which is what casues stalling.
[18:28:43] <SWP_Away> that's what he was telling you to adjust the trimpot for, I think
[18:29:18] <Jymmm> SWP_Away he was giving me the settings for my motors using his drive
[18:29:27] <SWP_Away> duh ;)
[18:30:03] <Jymmm> he has that dyno and knows steppers as it pertains to his drives really well.
[18:30:29] <Jymmm> He knows I'm looking for info as a potential customer.
[18:30:42] <fenn> jymmm just add an L/C circuit in parallel with your stepper ;)
[18:30:46] <Jymmm> He's a good engineer, and a damn good marketing person too
[18:30:58] <SWP_Away> right - first off, you can't get as good performance from the Xylotex drive as you can from the Gecko, due to the voltage limitation
[18:31:11] <Jymmm> fenn and will that prevent stalling 100% or just a good guess ?
[18:31:27] <fenn> jymmm i absolutely guarantee it.. or your money back
[18:31:39] <Jymmm> SWP_Away this has NOTHING to do with performance. This is strictly stalling.
[18:31:46] <SWP_Away> BZZZZZTTT!
[18:32:03] <SWP_Away> sorry - finger was stuck on the buzzer
[18:32:14] <fenn> you could also add some sort of mechanical damper
[18:32:25] <Jymmm> I can jog at 180IPM right now. it does me no good if they stall.
[18:32:27] <fenn> but that's sub optimal
[18:32:33] <SWP_Away> anyway - I was pointing out that the Xylotex is worse in several ways
[18:32:37] <Jymmm> fenn I already have belts
[18:32:57] <fenn> i don't see how belts would help
[18:33:23] <fenn> timing belts are pretty stiff usually
[18:33:44] <fenn> not viscous either
[18:34:29] <fenn> should talk to les about this
[18:34:34] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: I would be buying a gecko stepper drive for perforamcne, but for it's stated ability to prevent mid-band resonace.
[18:34:42] <Jymmm> wouldn't
[18:34:46] <SWP_Away> right
[18:35:02] <SWP_Away> I'm looking up the Xylotex driver specs - haven't found it yet
[18:35:05] <Jymmm> Even if that meant only being able to do 10IPM
[18:35:15] <SWP_Away> do they use the L296/L297 drivers?
[18:35:21] <Jymmm> no an alegro
[18:35:44] <Jymmm> it doens't matter... xylotex doesn't have mid-band compensation
[18:35:44] <SWP_Away> well - I think that the Geckos will give you both better performance and no resonance
[18:36:05] <SWP_Away> right - you can't tune the Xylotex, but you can tune the Geckos
[18:36:10] <SWP_Away> (and you can't tuna fish)
[18:36:12] <Jymmm> SWP_Away right you THINK, that's hte key word here. you dont KNOW for sure.
[18:36:35] <Jymmm> Mariss would
[18:36:36] <SWP_Away> I know they're tunable - I don't know if your machine/motor parameters are outside the tuning range
[18:36:45] <skunkworks> there is stepper tuning - the compumotor drives have pots to help tune the resonance spots
[18:37:28] <Jymmm> I trust the lo-speed (as you say tuning) that mariss stated. again that's not on the table. will you please stop bring it back up! *grabs rolled up newspaper*
[18:37:36] <SWP_Away> I'
[18:37:50] <SWP_Away> I'm talking about tuning the mid-band resonance damping you idiot ;)
[18:38:24] <Jymmm> the tuning has NOTHING to do with mid-band. Mariss adds the 80 deg lag to deal with that.
[18:38:45] <SWP_Away> you have to tune the 80 degrees to fit the inductance of the motor, silly
[18:38:58] <Jymmm> That's is NOT what he stated.
[18:39:09] <Jymmm> That could be true, but not what he said.
[18:39:26] <skunkworks> right - does marises drives know where the resonace of your stepper/machine is?
[18:39:27] <SWP_Away> OK - I could be wrong about that - I have the servo drives after all
[18:40:09] <Jymmm> skunkworks: go over to the yahoo group and read msg 7434
[18:40:15] <SWP_Away> ok - you're right - the trimpot is for low speed adjustment
[18:40:33] <SWP_Away> there's a jumper for midband compensation disable/enable
[18:40:43] <skunkworks> cad_cam_edm_dro?
[18:40:46] <Jymmm> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/geckodrive/message/7434
[18:40:48] <SWP_Away> geckodrive
[18:40:54] <skunkworks> ok - thanks
[18:41:05] <Jymmm> if the link works (damn yahoo filtering)
[18:41:19] <SWP_Away> Thank you for purchasing the G202 drive. The G202 microstep drive is warranted to be free of manufacturing defects for 1 year
[18:41:26] <SWP_Away> from the date of purchase. Also anyone who is dissatisfied with it or is unable to make it work will be cheerfully refunded the
[18:41:26] <SWP_Away> purchase price if the G202 is returned within 15 days of the purchase date.
[18:41:35] <SWP_Away> you can buy them, try them, and return them if the problem persists
[18:41:53] <SWP_Away> you're one day away from him via UPS ground
[18:41:58] <Jymmm> The problem is that I can't reproduce the stalling 100% of the time all the time.
[18:42:00] <SWP_Away> (maybe 2)
[18:42:26] <SWP_Away> you should try to make a program that stalls fairly reliably
[18:42:36] <Jymmm> The EXACT same job... try #1: stalled within the first 4 minutes. Try #2 stalled after 30 minutes.
[18:42:51] <Jymmm> #3 25 minutes, etc
[18:42:55] <SWP_Away> that's due to varying cutting load, I'd bet
[18:43:26] <Jymmm> the EXACT same job. nothing changed, same species of wood and everything.
[18:43:36] <SWP_Away> are you using emc1 or emc2 (or some windows thing)?
[18:43:42] <SWP_Away> different grain
[18:43:53] <Jymmm> nope, same grain.
[18:44:09] <SWP_Away> I'd be really surprised if you had two identical pieces of wood
[18:44:22] <Jymmm> it's only douglas fir anyway. no thtat erradicae
[18:44:50] <SWP_Away> anyway - you should try to reproduce the problem without cutting
[18:45:03] <SWP_Away> there should be some speed where the problem happens fairly reliably
[18:45:18] <Jymmm> there's not, I REALLY wish there was.
[18:45:28] <Jymmm> that would help diag the cause
[18:45:31] <fenn> it needs to be driving some torque
[18:45:56] <Jymmm> fenn heh, not really =)
[18:46:10] <Jymmm> I have stalled a stepper sitting in the palm of my hand.
[18:46:16] <SWP_Away> I didn't see much of a load in the video
[18:46:24] <fenn> hmm ok n/m
[18:46:32] <Jymmm> that was a hdd stepper motor
[18:46:43] <fenn> i guess i dont know what the diff is between mid-band and low-speed resonance
[18:47:04] <SWP_Away> me either ;)
[18:47:05] <Jymmm> fenn mid-band cause stalling. lo-speed resonace is that hum you can hear.
[18:47:18] <fenn> anyway i gotta go.. ttyl
[18:47:55] <Jymmm> I should just pick up the phone and call him, but the man can tak your ear pff!
[18:47:59] <SWP_Away> yep
[18:48:02] <Jymmm> talk
[18:48:06] <SWP_Away> off
[18:48:28] <SWP_Away> what voltage supply are you using?
[18:51:28] <Jymmm> 28vdc
[18:52:02] <SWP_Away> ok
[18:52:19] <SWP_Away> note that the resonance charicteristics should change if you change the supply voltage
[18:52:23] <Jymmm> See, I can spend $450 for gecko + $100 for a PS (and assecories) no problem. *IF* that will posatively reslotive the stalling problem. BUT
[18:53:01] <Jymmm> If it doesn't, then I'm out $550 and back to the same problem before still without a solution.
[18:53:31] <Jymmm> I'm not going to JUST throw money at the problem without a viable solution.
[18:53:34] <SWP_Away> except that you can return the Geckos
[18:53:45] <SWP_Away> and you can try them with the same supply you have now
[18:54:08] <SWP_Away> you'll be out some shipping and time, plus a breakout board of some sort
[18:54:08] <Jymmm> It take long than 15 days to build the PS, test, and try and reproduce the problem which I can't do now.
[18:54:39] <Jymmm> Yeah so roughly $200 and just guessing at the soluton.
[18:54:42] <SWP_Away> you need to spend some time before buying anything, and make some test programs that let you reproduce the problem
[18:55:21] <SWP_Away> if you can't reproduce the problem, then you can't solve the problem - with money or time
[18:55:29] <Jymmm> That's why I'm trying to get Mariss to give me a definative answer to the statement on his website about the "no stallign with geckos"
[18:56:00] <SWP_Away> it makes no difference - if you can't test it, you can't fix it
[18:56:16] <Jymmm> Well, yes I can.... servos. But then I'm out the $450 I have in xylotex plus the cost of new motors, brackets, gecko servo amps, etc
[18:57:17] <Jymmm> and the bitch is, the stalling is only in one axis.
[18:57:27] <SWP_Away> then use a GEcko on that axis only
[18:57:34] <Jymmm> that I have encountered so far.
[18:57:59] <Jymmm> But is that the proper solution, or just an educated guess.
[18:58:11] <Jymmm> besides, I've already considered that =)
[18:58:46] <SWP_Away> well - again, you can't be sure to fix the problem (without switching to servos) unless you can reproduce it reasonably reliably
[18:59:22] <Jymmm> It's liek taking your car to the shop, and the problem doens't show up at the shop.
[18:59:52] <SWP_Away> always
[19:02:58] <Jymmm> =)
[19:04:36] <Jymmm> ok, sent. we shall see.
[19:05:30] <SWP_Away> yep - we'll see ;)
[19:06:15] <Jymmm> The only reason I suspect that Mariss response will be 99.999% of the time is because if what Mariss has engineered in his drives was utopian, then nobody would ever use servos.
[19:06:31] <SWP_Away> probably true
[19:06:59] <Jymmm> what are you using servose on?
[19:07:35] <SWP_Away> I'll be using them on my Bridgeport one day ;)
[19:08:07] <Jymmm> oh, you dont have an operational machine using servos right now?
[19:08:55] <SWP_Away> nope :(
[19:09:15] <Jymmm> steppers?
[19:09:31] <SWP_Away> hands
[19:09:48] <SWP_Away> I am like AAAAhnold when I do a lot of machining ;)
[19:09:49] <Jymmm> 9VDC toy motors from radio shack @ $0.99 ?
[19:53:37] <SWP_Away> heh - there's your answer ;)
[19:56:11] <jepler> hey, I get 2IPS with my $1.99ea 12V steppers
[19:56:33] <jepler> maybe they were five bux a piece, I don't remember
[19:59:11] <SWP_Away> I havea Bridgeport, not an etch-a-sketch ;)
[20:00:07] <Jymmm> SWP_Away mother fucker... I'm gonna hold him to that!
[20:00:16] <SWP_Away> heh
[20:01:05] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: But, on my 'nobody would use servos' statment.... something sound sfishy here.
[20:01:40] <SWP_Away> for higher speed applications, servos are better than steppers
[20:02:01] <SWP_Away> steppers are constant power devices - as you increase speed past the corner frequency, you reduce torque
[20:02:19] <SWP_Away> a servo can be run at full torque and full speed (even overdriven for short periods)
[20:03:08] <SWP_Away> a stepper absolutely can't be overdriven - you have to reduce the requested velocity if the stepper can't keep up
[20:18:10] <K4ts> hello
[20:20:20] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: Again, not a performance thing. A 'I dont want anymore fucked up parts' thing =)
[20:20:33] <K4ts> he does not work msn jacky
[20:20:38] <SWP_Away> that was in response to "why would anyone use servos"
[20:21:16] <K4ts> give me email di gaim
[20:24:10] <rayh> I would use servos any time steppers are not reliable or strong enough.
[20:24:32] <SWP_Away> right - higher speeds, but still needing torque
[20:24:47] <rayh> How's that for a provocative statement!
[20:24:52] <SWP_Away> heh
[20:25:34] <alex_joni> rayh: that's just a true fact
[20:25:36] <alex_joni> nothing more
[20:25:56] <rayh> glad you see it that way.
[20:26:24] <alex_joni> I'm using AC servos for anything important..
[20:26:39] <alex_joni> so I guess I don't really believe in steppers
[20:27:07] <alex_joni> for robots steppers were used in the 70's and early 80's, after that DC's till the late 80's, after that AC's
[20:28:22] <Jymmm> Well, rayh, alex_joni you guys need to argue that with Mariss then.
[20:28:37] <Jymmm> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/geckodrive/message/7442
[20:28:47] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I'm getting G340 from Mariss, for hobby stuff
[20:29:03] <SWP_Away> no - Mariss knows that servos are applicable for some applications and steppers for others
[20:29:25] <SWP_Away> he doesn't think that servos are "always better", like a lot of servo snobs do
[20:30:02] <SWP_Away> I think his guideline is that if you need less than 200W, then use a stepper. for more than 300W, use a servo, and in between, it'll depend on the application
[20:30:29] <alex_joni> SWP_Away: right.. but who wants anything under 1kW ?
[20:30:45] <SWP_Away> heh -only people with little routers in their spare bedroom ;)
[20:31:23] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: Fuck you and the knee mill you rode in on! =)
[20:31:28] <SWP_Away> heh
[20:31:54] <SWP_Away> it is heavier than the car, and I could ride on it, if I'd ever attach the servos to it
[20:32:07] <SWP_Away> you have the advantage of a running CNC though
[20:32:17] <alex_joni> halfrunning
[20:32:19] <alex_joni> ROFL
[20:33:45] <Jymmm> We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful.
[20:33:46] <Jymmm> We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing."
[20:34:12] <Jymmm> ~ Mother Teresa ~
[20:35:29] <rayh> I'm a firm believer that we need to do what we can with what we have.
[20:35:57] <alex_joni> I think we need to do more then what we normally can
[20:36:17] <rayh> even if that is only the stepper motors and screws out of floppy drives.
[20:36:22] <Jymmm> rayh: Honestly, that's what I'm attempting to accomplish. I'm at a point that I need to resolve the steppers stalling and ruining work though.
[20:36:54] <SWP_Away> Jymmm, how much ruined work does it take to pay for some Geckos?
[20:37:05] <SWP_Away> not to mention the time
[20:37:25] <Jymmm> SWP_Away: Buying geckos does not guarntee the problem is resolved, nor other problems arise.
[20:37:39] <SWP_Away> only 101% of the time ;)
[20:37:44] <alex_joni> Jymmm: no, but it's worth an experiment
[20:37:53] <alex_joni> and you'll have some spare drives
[20:38:04] <alex_joni> which might get you to build another machine :D
[20:38:19] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Not necessarily. If I need servos, I'll get servos, but it's a last resort.
[20:38:29] <rayh> Yep. It is a system. Motors, screws, slides, drives, PC, and emc.
[20:38:44] <Jymmm> But I'll be damn if I'm going from xylotex, to geckos, to servos.
[20:38:52] <alex_joni> Jymmm: you are running emc now, aren't you?
[20:38:55] <rayh> any one part can kill the performance.
[20:39:13] <alex_joni> rayh: and it always can be only a bit of the parts
[20:39:24] <Jymmm> This isn't a perfomrance issue, it's a "dont fuck up any more parts" issue.
[20:39:28] <alex_joni> summed together, which is worse, because changing one part won't make it more better
[20:40:24] <SWP_Away> take Mariss' recommendations then - if you need more than 300W drive power, then change to servos. if <300W will do, then keep the steppers (since you already have the motors)
[20:40:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed...
[20:40:25] <cradek> Jymmm: did you do the troubleshooting I suggested? Swap drivers? Swap motors?
[20:40:44] <alex_joni> night all
[20:40:46] <SWP_Away> the xylotex has no mid-band resonance damping
[20:40:48] <SWP_Away> see ya Alex
[20:40:55] <rayh> catch you tomorrow alex
[20:41:05] <alex_joni> hope so ;)
[20:41:41] <Jymmm> cradek: No, I'm trying to reproduce the problem consistantly.
[20:42:09] <cradek> bummer
[20:42:24] <cradek> seems like you've been talking about this for weeks and you've made no progress
[20:43:55] <Jymmm> cradek: Well, just to get the job out the door, I revamped the toolpaths to make tiny moves in the problem axis. That job shipped out yesterday.
[20:54:51] <rayh> sounds like adaptive control to me.
[22:17:10] <lep> at first I thought logger_aj was a logger named aj... not a bot
[22:31:41] <Jacky^> damn permission ..
[22:31:57] <Jacky^> /var/tmt & co ..
[22:32:00] <Jacky^> tmp
[22:41:54] <Jacky^> ghghgh
[22:42:00] <Jacky^> Gaim has segfaulted and attempted to dump a core file.
[22:42:00] <Jacky^> This is a bug in the software and has happened through
[22:42:00] <Jacky^> no fault of your own.
[22:42:22] <Jacky^> dns[7667]: Oops, father has gone, wait for me, wait...! Abortito
[22:42:31] <Jacky^> nngheeeeeeeee :(��������
[22:44:24] <lep> hehe
[22:46:27] <Jacky^> I hate kopete & co ..
[22:46:42] <Jacky^> I absolute need to get Gaim working again
[22:46:55] <lep> gaim sucks but I have to use it at work (FOR WINDOWS NO LESS)
[22:46:56] <Jacky^> last chance, install the beta version
[22:47:13] <Jacky^> I know, in windows work bad
[22:48:05] <Jacky^> this Im using is cvs version
[22:48:43] <djb_rh> gaim sucks?
[22:48:46] <djb_rh> I love gaim
[22:49:00] <Jacky^> im too .. if it would work ..
[22:49:02] <djb_rh> you're talking about the IM client, right?
[22:49:07] <lep> yeah
[22:49:10] <Jacky^> that do all
[22:49:11] <djb_rh> interesting
[22:49:14] <lep> it's the lesser of all evils
[22:49:17] <lep> but it still sucks
[22:49:39] <Jacky^> I simultaniusly running 3 account: msn, jabber, etc ..
[22:49:50] <Jacky^> it also have irc plugin
[22:50:05] <Jacky^> Im thinking to try with the 2 beta vers.
[22:51:03] <Jacky^> lep: I never had problems in 2 years with it
[22:51:19] <Jacky^> just now.. after an hard upgrade in debian
[22:52:16] <lep> I've always had problems with the windows version
[22:52:18] <lep> not much trouble in bsd
[22:52:35] <Jacky^> yeah, already know in windoz ..
[22:54:26] <Jacky^> I runned amsn for some time, that crap :(
[22:58:15] <Jacky^> ok, fixed..
[22:58:23] <Jacky^> s# apt-get remove gaim
[22:58:28] <Jacky^> :(
[22:58:41] <Jacky^> lets try 2 beta now
[23:01:59] <dmess> gaim??
[23:02:54] <Jacky^> dmess: yeah
[23:04:31] <dmess> as in video game platform ... gaim???
[23:04:47] <Jacky^> hehe na
[23:05:07] <dmess> i thought not
[23:10:00] <les_w> evening
[23:15:20] <Jacky^> hi les_w
[23:15:43] <Jacky^> les_w: already seen the url I pasted ?
[23:16:01] <Jacky^> about virtual guitar
[23:18:17] <K4ts> hi les_w
[23:20:09] <Jacky^> K4ts: how your msn messenger is working ?
[23:20:40] <Jacky^> now ..
[23:20:54] <Jacky^> lost connection ?
[23:21:01] <K4ts> si
[23:21:07] <Jacky^> uhmm
[23:21:18] <K4ts> ora si
[23:21:26] <Jacky^> what ?
[23:22:53] <Jacky^> K4ts: I got msn: C: SB 002: MSG 14 A 150
[23:22:53] <Jacky^> msn: S: SB 002: ACK 14
[23:22:53] <Jacky^> msn: C: SB 002: MSG 15 A 157
[23:22:53] <Jacky^> msn: S: SB 002: ACK 15
[23:23:06] <Jacky^> in the latest conversation
[23:23:15] <Jacky^> how you see it ? :O_O
[23:23:27] <Jacky^> something wrong ? :/
[23:24:10] <K4ts> a me funziona
[23:24:25] <K4ts> your msn no
[23:24:59] <Jacky^> wow, wonderful
[23:25:07] <Jacky^> succesful compiled
[23:25:30] <Jacky^> before was crashing now wont start !
[23:25:47] <Jacky^> segfaulted before to start
[23:25:54] <Jacky^> K4ts: good progress :P
[23:26:14] <K4ts> I?
[23:26:32] <K4ts> good progress?
[23:26:35] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ sigh
[23:27:02] <les_w> hi jacky'
[23:27:09] <les_w> hi K$TS
[23:27:10] <Jacky^> hey les_w
[23:27:12] <les_w> OOPS
[23:27:19] <K4ts> dollar?
[23:27:20] <les_w> K4ts
[23:27:24] <K4ts> ih ih
[23:27:40] <les_w> keyboard shift sticks
[23:27:57] <les_w> Was looking at cars again.
[23:28:07] <K4ts> ok
[23:28:33] <Jymmm> les_w get a yugo already =)
[23:28:33] <Jacky^> les_w: not found your next car yet ?
[23:31:18] <les_w> I have studied Audi, BMW, MB, Volvo. I am disappointed because all now have very very bad reliability
[23:31:39] <les_w> broken once a month!
[23:31:57] <Jymmm> hyundai?
[23:33:22] <les_w> well, lookiing at japanese. Almost perfect reliability, but usually I do not like the styling
[23:33:41] <Jacky^> les_w: I like the Prius
http://www.toyota.com/prius/
[23:33:45] <les_w> jacky, K4ts, Jymmm...what about this?
[23:33:56] <les_w> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Navigation-Sports-Package-WoW-Donohooauto-com_W0QQitemZ4594461131QQcategoryZ6264QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[23:33:58] <Jacky^> about ?
[23:34:01] <Jacky^> ah ok
[23:34:06] <les_w> old man car?
[23:34:56] <K4ts> my car
[23:35:00] <K4ts> ih ih
[23:35:01] <les_w> hahaha
[23:35:05] <Jacky^> hehe looks nice
[23:35:21] <Jacky^> les_w: you are the expert for cars :P
[23:35:28] <les_w> big v8, but ok gas milage
[23:35:32] <Jymmm> les_w take off the embelms and you got a toyota
[23:35:36] <Jacky^> our suggestions are not important
[23:35:38] <les_w> correct.
[23:35:44] <Jacky^> but the look is nice :)
[23:36:14] <Jymmm> les_w you want a car?
[23:36:15] <les_w> Well, if K4ts likes it ...it must be ok right?
[23:36:16] <les_w> haha
[23:36:36] <Jacky^> I agreed :D
[23:36:55] <les_w> what about the interior?
[23:36:58] <les_w> good?
[23:37:15] <les_w> not 60-dead age group style?
[23:37:30] <Jacky^> yeahh, really nice interior
[23:37:42] <Jacky^> cool details
[23:37:47] <K4ts> http://www.jdlimousineservice.com/foto_8_9_05/IMG_1006.JPG
[23:37:52] <les_w> italians have a good eye for style
[23:38:02] <K4ts> this is my machine
[23:38:05] <Jacky^> hehe :P
[23:38:16] <Jacky^> not really ..
[23:38:26] <Jacky^> my car is renault clio
[23:38:30] <Jacky^> very small car
[23:38:45] <Jacky^> I bought for E. 3k :P
[23:39:21] <Jacky^> nice cars, years ago was maded by Giannini
[23:39:33] <Jacky^> Maserati
[23:39:37] <Jymmm> les_w MB ?
[23:40:07] <les_w> terrible reliability for MB Jymmm
[23:40:16] <Jymmm> ah
[23:40:22] <Jymmm> acura?
[23:40:26] <Jymmm> honda?
[23:40:37] <les_w> I am really disappointed cause I like german cars
[23:40:37] <Jymmm> honda truck is nice
[23:40:50] <les_w> I already have a truck
[23:40:58] <les_w> I just need a car
[23:41:16] <K4ts> I my car instead kilometers of a true car are my feet which do at the Piu day I take place in form
[23:41:21] <Jymmm> les_w harley
[23:41:33] <les_w> reliability is important...I am over 100 miles from a car dealer
[23:42:09] <Jymmm> les_w Harley Davidson =)
[23:42:19] <les_w> heh
[23:42:36] <les_w> jymm...i'm old...oh...so are harley riders
[23:42:52] <les_w> Now what is K4ts saying
[23:43:05] <les_w> I think she likes to walk?
[23:43:06] <Jymmm> nfc
[23:43:11] <les_w> haha
[23:43:14] <Jacky^> The purchase of a new Prius (model years 2001 - 2005) must be completed on or before December 31, 2005, for the $2000 deduction.
[23:43:26] <Jacky^> thats is a good advatage
[23:43:30] <les_w> prius is neat
[23:43:30] <Jacky^> :)
[23:44:05] <K4ts> yes
[23:44:21] <les_w> ah I knew it
[23:44:29] <les_w> I walk too
[23:44:46] <Jacky^> how many km /day ?
[23:45:00] <les_w> only 2 or so
[23:45:08] <les_w> if weather is nice
[23:45:15] <Jacky^> :-)
[23:45:34] <les_w> today I rode the tractor though.
[23:45:40] <K4ts> there are people who are not able to do without
[23:45:46] <les_w> moved a few 1000 km of stuff
[23:46:11] <les_w> do without walking K4ts?
[23:46:15] <les_w> or cars?
[23:46:34] <K4ts> les_w: what car do you have?
[23:47:05] <les_w> now I have a v8 ford f150 pickup and a BMW 325 sedan
[23:49:11] <les_w> truck looks like this:
[23:49:14] <les_w> http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/
[23:49:31] <Jymmm> what year?
[23:51:41] <les_w> 2000
[23:51:51] <les_w> car looks like this
[23:51:55] <les_w> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wheelmax.com/Wheels/AZA/cars/bmw3-z1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.wheelmax.com/Wheels/AZA/cars/aza.htm&h=450&w=600&sz=194&tbnid=ycqdG-B08ToJ:&tbnh=99&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbmw%2B325%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D&oi=imagesr&start=3
[23:52:50] <les_w> mine is red, and getting old although looks new. I may give it to my son
[23:53:20] <Jacky^> K4ts: nepew work for Iveco, near Milan
[23:53:34] <K4ts> what Wow car I want it!
[23:53:34] <Jacky^> they build Truck plastic parts
[23:53:51] <les_w> I know iveco
[23:54:02] <Jacky^> eh K4ts ? mimmo ..
[23:54:12] <Jacky^> Domenico :)
[23:54:15] <K4ts> si
[23:54:21] <K4ts> yes
[23:54:46] <K4ts> sorry anonimasu
[23:54:50] <K4ts> :-)
[23:55:10] <les_w> I guess I like cars. But i design parts for them...
[23:55:34] <les_w> I wash cars carefully by hand each week
[23:56:14] <Jacky^> I asked to K4ts nepew (domenico) he sayd they do not use machine such cnc
[23:56:24] <Jacky^> they just use liquid plastic
[23:56:29] <les_w> at iveco?
[23:56:42] <Jacky^> yeah, for the plastic parts
[23:57:10] <les_w> my truck is partly aluminum
[23:57:19] <les_w> for the body
[23:57:25] <Jacky^> they also no need to varnish the piece
[23:57:43] <Jacky^> at the end, is ready to use
[23:57:44] <les_w> but truck is for hauling...bmw is a race car.
[23:57:46] <K4ts> Instead I love clothing l if I had a lot of money I would spend them all in suits!
[23:57:53] <les_w> I need old man car for long trips
[23:58:23] <Jacky^> les_w: how many km/year you do ?
[23:58:59] <les_w> only a few thousand...but now I need to take long 4000 km trips
[23:59:10] <les_w> for bisiness
[23:59:30] <les_w> fly sometimes
[23:59:34] <Jacky^> ugh. 4k km are a lot
[23:59:36] <les_w> but often drive
