#emc | Logs for 2005-12-03

[03:15:12] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[03:26:14] <dmess> helo all
[03:30:35] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh_away
[03:30:40] <dmess> any catia v5 designers around
[03:32:52] <skunkworks> fenn - sorry got side-tracked. right now the k&t is down. something failed in it and have not had a chance to figure it out. This is late 60 early 70s technology. descrete germanium transisters. That is one of the reasons we are looking at emc - with the ladder logic in it I think it should be powerful enough to do the pallet change and tool changer among other things.
[03:34:03] <dmess> with ladder integration anything is possible...
[03:34:32] <dmess> big k&t ???
[03:34:41] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/
[03:35:14] <skunkworks> conversation started last night. kerney & trecker milwalkee matic IIIb maching center
[03:36:01] <dmess> i like it... nice machine... good fit for emc from my viewpoint
[03:36:33] <skunkworks> hydrolic servos and transister controller - right now we are playing with emc on the gantry table.
[03:36:37] <dmess> ive worked for assorted machine tool builders as applications eng
[03:38:26] <dmess> i fell upon 1 that had hydraulic servos and air logic thru the paper tape
[03:39:50] <skunkworks> this one actually had light tape reader but after playing with the machine we decided to make a tape emulator. no errors after that.
[03:40:21] <dmess> yes...best idea
[03:40:52] <dmess> what baud rate are you achieving??
[03:41:23] <skunkworks> we had gotten it from a junk yard. It had been saw-alled out of servic. (this was maybe 15 years ago when I was stil in high school) I spent one summer rehooking up the all the harnesses that had been cut.
[03:42:13] <skunkworks> I made the program using the parrelel port for the tape reader - I let the machine ask for more info. remember this is old - there is no read ahead at all.
[03:42:16] <dmess> ive done some sawzall repocessions in the past .. what a mess...
[03:46:30] <dmess> k&t appears to have a random place tool changer??
[03:47:08] <skunkworks> yes - it has "bar code" reader and rings on each tool.
[03:47:41] <dmess> right on that was k&t technology....
[03:48:05] <skunkworks> you program what tool you want before hand and the machine finds it. when you ask for the tool change the tool is already there.
[03:48:26] <rayh_away> if you need a background on that K%T machine catch roltek
[03:48:30] <dmess> pre call it
[03:49:14] <skunkworks> it was also only 2.5 axis - the z and x used the same servo. There was only contouring in the x/y plane. maximum radus was 9.9999 inches.
[03:49:33] <skunkworks> roltek?
[03:49:40] <rayh_away> he built the gears and perhaps the spindle
[03:50:04] <rayh_away> He's at an auto show in florida this weekend but should be around next weekend.
[03:50:28] <rayh_away> He worked for K&T
[03:50:34] <dmess> i hat those kinda machines.... always alot of timers and stuff to sort out
[03:51:01] <rayh_away> Trash it all and use CL and EMC2
[03:51:01] <skunkworks> neet - yah - I don't remember as I am not in front of it but the spindle has atleast 12 gears + 2 speed motor
[03:51:10] <skunkworks> that is the plan
[03:51:56] <dmess> keep the hard steel bits only...
[03:52:10] <skunkworks> it has tikko (sp) ways - recirculating needle bearings - really nice setup
[03:52:15] <rayh_away> I found that on the Mazak the PC was so much faster than the original PLC that I had to put timers on several prox switches.
[03:52:25] <rayh_away> Things like tool drum in position.
[03:52:45] <dmess> or they timmed out???
[03:53:18] <skunkworks> funny - I am sure it is going to be a learning experience.
[03:53:59] <dmess> you wont be laughing ALL the time
[03:54:32] <rayh_away> No it would stop the drum to soon and you really were not in position
[03:55:10] <dmess> oh ok it was the proxy acting too soon...
[03:56:01] <rayh_away> yes. actually the response to the prox acting to soon
[03:56:23] <rayh_away> I saw that also with the Hardinge lathe turret at Matt's.
[03:57:14] <skunkworks> - the table is indexable also - 5 degree increments. might seriously look at making it a 4th axis. - maybe.
[03:57:25] <dmess> what about moving the proxy's target?? change accel/decel
[03:57:45] <skunkworks> ray - what is cl - when you said replace it with cl and emc2
[03:58:05] <skunkworks> computer logic?
[03:58:23] <rayh_away> ClassicLadder is now a HAL module -- thanks to petev
[03:58:40] <rayh_away> You can see some sample pics and such on the wiki
[03:58:46] <skunkworks> crap - I knew that. sorry. - I have been reading about it on wiki
[03:58:49] <skunkworks> ;)
[03:59:24] <rayh_away> pretty slick way to do some of the machine logic.
[03:59:44] <skunkworks> looks like it. one stop machine control
[04:00:30] <skunkworks> Dad had printed out emc info maybe 10 years ago - probably right from nist site. Way over my head at the time.
[04:00:46] <skunkworks> now it seems very user friendly
[04:00:50] <dmess> thats what emc was supposed to be... and all military producers would HAVE to use it
[04:01:26] <dmess> to make pulling a program more seemless
[04:01:31] <skunkworks> had it up and runnning on steppers in no time at all.
[04:01:55] <skunkworks> thats interesting - read a little history on it.
[04:10:34] <skunkworks> well I have to put up trim - it was nice talking to you two. I will be back later - maybe I will be able to have time later to have jmkasunich help me with the emc2 bug.
[04:18:24] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWP_Away
[04:25:16] <alex_joni> howdy Jymmm
[04:25:40] <skunkworks> battery is going dead - have a good day. Talk later. BTW - what hardware was used on the mazak conversion? was it one servo card like stg - or was an extra in-out card needed?
[04:25:54] <alex_joni> motenc servo card
[04:26:04] <alex_joni> and another in/out card iirc
[04:26:34] <skunkworks> ah - I know the motenc card has extra in-outs. Just wondering if more was needed. thanks
[04:27:25] <alex_joni> quite a few were used because of the logic done in classicladder
[04:27:32] <alex_joni> a lot was controlled from the pc
[04:28:28] <skunkworks> that is what I figured - the project I am looking at would be about that scale. maybe more (pallet - toolchanger - table index....)
[04:28:49] <alex_joni> then definately emc2 with classicladder
[04:29:30] <skunkworks> right - playing with it right now. looks like it is very powerfull.
[04:29:40] <skunkworks> very nice work
[04:30:06] <alex_joni> yep..
[04:30:15] <alex_joni> so .. how was your impression with emc?
[04:30:24] <alex_joni> installing / compiling / usage ?
[04:35:02] <Jymmm> hi alex_joni
[04:35:12] <alex_joni> how's life Jymmm?
[04:35:44] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Oh, hanging in there as usual =)
[04:35:51] <alex_joni> nice
[04:37:15] <Jymmm> yourself?
[04:37:39] <alex_joni> fighting a cold, can't get rid of it
[04:38:13] <Jymmm> lots and lots of capcasium
[04:38:32] <alex_joni> wot's that?
[04:38:49] <Jymmm> the stuff that makes chilli peppers hot
[04:39:00] <alex_joni> heh :)
[04:39:01] <les_w> heh...i grow it
[04:39:14] <rayh_away> rayh_away is now known as rayh
[04:39:23] <Jymmm> les_w I was just thinking about you. Were your ears ringing?
[04:39:37] <les_w> haha
[04:39:53] <les_w> gonna get nasty tonight. 70 mph winds
[04:40:05] <les_w> better get the generator ready
[04:40:18] <Jymmm> les_w: heh
[04:40:40] <Jymmm> les_w Hey, you know that plastic sheet they used to use on the back windows of MG's ?
[04:40:50] <les_w> yeah
[04:41:21] <Jymmm> les_w: Does it hold an ESD charge IN or ON the material?
[04:42:13] <les_w> it would mostly be ON...it's a good insulator so charge will tend to stay on the surface
[04:43:03] <Jymmm> les_w: Not what I wanted to hear =( Was thinking of backing it with some metal screen to drain off any charge.
[04:44:00] <les_w> spray it with fabric softener
[04:44:24] <Jymmm> les_w but that's not perm, meaning I'd have todo that every week or so.
[04:44:26] <les_w> dammit...had some firewood delivered...as expected...not very dry
[04:44:36] <Jymmm> green?
[04:44:55] <les_w> In fact I have never seen dry firewood anywhere...ever
[04:45:18] <les_w> i's not totally green, but not bone dry either
[04:45:37] <Jymmm> I have, but I dont think you'ld like the delivery charge =)
[04:45:38] <les_w> One summer season is not enough
[04:46:04] <les_w> $300 + a cord here
[04:46:06] <alex_joni> les_w: we usually get ours fresh, and leave it out for 2-3 summers
[04:46:27] <les_w> I have plenty from trees taken down on the property...but it is all green
[04:46:30] <Jymmm> same cost here, but delivery from CA to GA
[04:47:09] <les_w> removing a 4 foot diameter red oak soon for the shop enlargement
[04:47:29] <Jymmm> les_w got a log splitter?
[04:47:47] <les_w> I'll buy one when I am ready
[04:48:01] <les_w> harbor freight one is on sale
[04:48:02] <alex_joni> make a canu out of it
[04:48:07] <alex_joni> canoe
[04:48:11] <les_w> heh
[04:48:22] <alex_joni> or whatever that's spelled like :)
[04:48:27] <Jymmm> les_w WHAT?! no log splitter tractor attachment?!
[04:48:32] <les_w> might saw the log if it looks good
[04:48:48] <Jymmm> canoe
[04:48:53] <les_w> Iread up on tractor splitters...they are slow
[04:48:58] <Jymmm> ah
[04:49:08] <les_w> because tractor hydraulics are not 2 stage
[04:49:30] <Jymmm> what about a hydraulic beaver?
[04:50:46] <les_w> how does this look:
[04:50:48] <les_w> http://www.harborfreight.com/
[04:50:55] <les_w> scroll down
[04:51:27] <Jymmm> 6? 3? or 40 ton?
[04:51:31] <Jymmm> 30
[04:52:25] <les_w> I don't know
[04:53:14] <Jymmm> the bottom one says towable
[04:53:30] <Jymmm> the 24 ton
[04:53:57] <Jymmm> oh, it has a built in tow hitch - see tallest point in pic
[04:54:45] <Jymmm> heh, I guess they all do, just not mentioned in the desc.
[04:56:31] <les_w> also if the 4 foot tree is no good for lumber (may be hollow) how do I split it?
[04:56:48] <Jymmm> chainsaw?
[04:57:03] <les_w> well sure to buck it
[04:57:32] <les_w> so now I have 4 foot 18 inch thick pieces
[04:57:34] <les_w> then what
[04:58:10] <Jymmm> chainsaw?
[04:58:14] <les_w> anyway perhaps the bottom 10 feet will be sawable
[04:58:29] <Jymmm> tnt?
[04:58:42] <les_w> but often trees around houses are full of nails
[04:59:23] <les_w> I have seen people drive forklifts into logs to split em
[05:00:03] <les_w> thought about the tractor bucket...but it is only 1/2 inch thick steel
[05:01:49] <les_w> Oh kid delivering the firewood is taking a cnc course at the local tech school about 25 miles away
[05:01:56] <les_w> I might hire him!
[05:02:41] <les_w> He is just starting his courses on g code
[05:05:32] <Jymmm> cool
[05:05:51] <Jymmm> http://www.rcmodels.net/cnc/hobby/classic.html
[05:06:25] <Jymmm> http://www.rcmodels.net/cnc/hobby/result.htm
[05:06:39] <anonimasu> hello
[05:06:56] <Jymmm> hey anonimasu
[05:07:18] <anonimasu> what's up?
[05:07:32] <Jymmm> the freezing point
[05:08:01] <anonimasu> that dosent sound too bad ^_^
[05:08:12] <anonimasu> hell freezing over and all
[05:12:07] <les_w> blah...i'd work today but msc order hasn't come
[05:12:38] <les_w> need the parts to finish up the mount for that electrospindle
[05:12:58] <les_w> and of course the igus chainflex cable
[05:13:15] <wb9mjn> J and L is 5 minutes from work here....
[05:13:49] <les_w> I used to go to that one a lot
[05:14:15] <les_w> remember the sale when msc bought enco?
[05:14:22] <les_w> did you go to that?
[05:14:32] <les_w> at the elk grove store
[05:14:36] <wb9mjn> Haven't been into CNC that long...
[05:14:43] <anonimasu> :)
[05:14:45] <Jymmm> msc bought enco?
[05:14:52] <wb9mjn> Or at that place of work...
[05:14:53] <les_w> yeah. long ago.
[05:15:14] <Jymmm> big price difference between the two..
[05:15:26] <Jymmm> my order from use-enco has inexpensive
[05:15:29] <les_w> anyway they sold off the elk grove enco inventory for...
[05:15:36] <les_w> $75 per pallet
[05:15:46] <wb9mjn> Wierd tho, I buy about $300 bucs worth of stuff whenever I get to a milestone on the CNC mill project here, and each time they send me another catalog !
[05:16:08] <Jymmm> lol, I just got another 2005 catalog from enco
[05:16:12] <wb9mjn> Enco had a Elk Grove store ?
[05:16:27] <les_w> msc sells the cheap stuff as enco
[05:16:33] <les_w> wb9: yeah
[05:16:50] <les_w> it was on 53
[05:18:10] <les_w> they knew me well...
[05:18:37] <wb9mjn> There are several other stores now in that area, but have not tried em yet....Rutland Gas, KBC...others probably ?
[05:18:53] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[05:18:58] <wb9mjn> Have bought some stuff from Penn and Neuman...metric lathe stuff...
[05:19:18] <wb9mjn> Need more metric stocked tools in these stores...
[05:19:24] <les_w> I got most of my supplies at enco, j&l, and Shars
[05:19:33] <les_w> shars moved to st charles
[05:19:52] <wb9mjn> Haven t heard of them...will look them up...
[05:20:00] <les_w> good stuff
[05:20:04] <les_w> great prices
[05:20:15] <les_w> chinese
[05:20:21] <les_w> chinese owned
[05:21:16] <wb9mjn> That must be what Diamond River Products turned into...
[05:21:35] <les_w> here ya go
[05:21:38] <wb9mjn> Used to be a warehouse in here way out on the SW corner of town...
[05:21:39] <les_w> http://www.shars.com/
[05:22:08] <wb9mjn> Piled to the 25 foot roof with that crappy cardboard boxes that chinese tools come in...
[05:23:04] <les_w> yeah
[05:23:27] <les_w> that was them
[05:23:32] <wb9mjn> Penn reps some companies whose distribution are in the Chicagoland area..and the stuff gets drop-shpped...shows up the next day sometimes...
[05:23:41] <les_w> near the driver's liscence place
[05:24:16] <les_w> I mean the vehicle inspection place
[05:24:20] <les_w> in addison
[05:24:21] <wb9mjn> No, more like near the emissions testing place......
[05:24:27] <les_w> haha
[05:25:06] <les_w> I lived at medinah rd and irving park
[05:25:20] <Jymmm> is Silestone as expensive as corian?
[05:25:30] <les_w> don't know
[05:25:34] <Jymmm> k
[05:27:24] <Jymmm> oh, it's man-made stone product. nm
[05:27:46] <Jymmm> ground-up granite and resin
[05:28:11] <wb9mjn> Might be tough to cut (granite dust)...
[05:28:26] <Jymmm> Yeah, thought it was a corian clone
[05:28:53] <Jymmm> but, I JUST found the clones...
[05:28:55] <Jymmm> Corian and other solid surfaces
[05:28:55] <Jymmm> Another popular choice is a solid surface made of minerals blended with an acrylic polymer. Several manufacturers make them in literally hundreds of colors, including Corian (by DuPont), Surell (by Formica), as well as Avonite, Gibraltar and Fountainhead.
[05:29:37] <Jymmm> DAAAAAAAAAAAAMN! Cost of Corian is $48-68 per linear foot.
[05:30:40] <wb9mjn> I ve seen corian being cut on TV,,looks allot like cutting Delrin...
[05:32:21] <les_w> cuts good...price is crazy
[05:32:54] <les_w> I don't want to do any cnc work on it...
[05:33:13] <les_w> make a gouge and it could cost hundreds or thousands
[05:33:53] <wb9mjn> Never thought about that....a counter top in the hundreds, gouge it, and its scrap...
[05:34:23] <wb9mjn> Might be a way to get it cheap...go to a counter shop, and ask for their ooopsies...
[05:34:45] <wb9mjn> Then fill it with epoxy and the coloring agent Dupont sells....
[05:34:54] <les_w> I was hunting for that 24" square shars sells...bought one and it measured up as very accurate
[05:34:54] <wb9mjn> and fly cut it flush...
[05:36:08] <wb9mjn> I m actually trying to resquare my X/Y table now...have it all apart but the ways....Found out my arithmetic was wacko...I thought I had a 11 second arc, when it was actually 270 seconds..
[05:36:41] <les_w> the big square is very handy for stuff like that
[05:36:58] <les_w> these days shars sells a lot of those cheap DRO scales
[05:37:08] <wb9mjn> Luckily, it came apart without having to disassemble the ways...they are a real challenge to remate...with the ball slides...
[05:38:14] <wb9mjn> Made the Limit Brackets with the machine,,,and that really neatened up the situation behind the table, and made the cabling fit in the enclosure better over the full range of motion...
[05:38:41] <wb9mjn> But, they were not exactly square...in this case it didn t matter though...
[05:39:29] <les_w> most of my limit brackets are aluminum. The have an adjustable slide
[05:40:13] <wb9mjn> These ones on the X are not adjustable...I set the limit by cutting the bar they run into to length....
[05:40:44] <wb9mjn> Bar bolts onto the back the saddle...and the limits are on the table...
[05:41:24] <les_w> wish the ups truck would come with my stuff
[05:42:02] <wb9mjn> On the Y, there are adjustment bolts on the saddle, as the Y does not make full range of travel as the table can do, due to the bellows and the size of the D and M blue box...
[05:42:12] <wb9mjn> They don't come here to about 6:30 pm....
[05:42:23] <les_w> Oh reminds me...gotta call msc customer service. I ordered an expensive us made drill bit set and they were unhardened!!!
[05:42:38] <les_w> a 200 dollar set
[05:42:40] <wb9mjn> AH!
[05:43:01] <wb9mjn> Trying to save costs,,,got too much in a hurry...
[05:43:34] <les_w> naver had that happen before
[05:43:39] <les_w> never
[05:44:19] <dmess> soft steel bits are common out of the offshore dudes
[05:44:51] <les_w> This is the first time I ever saw this
[05:45:07] <wb9mjn> Wierd...never seen that from overseas or us...
[05:45:30] <les_w> and these were high end M42 ones
[05:45:58] <wb9mjn> Probably somebody in China did a brand name ripoff....
[05:46:04] <les_w> haha
[05:46:05] <dmess> hardene them yourself...
[05:46:27] <wb9mjn> Want a Rolex, cheap ?
[05:46:29] <dmess> they'll clone anything remember...
[05:46:37] <les_w> m42 hardening requires high temps
[05:46:53] <dmess> yes and vacuum ideally
[05:46:58] <les_w> right
[05:47:13] <wb9mjn> snuck em into the US, and sold them to the distributor...
[05:47:32] <les_w> could be the wrong alloy was used
[05:48:16] <dmess> remember if they sell to 10% of the local market at 1 dollar a piece its a cool 100 million $
[05:48:46] <les_w> yeah
[05:48:48] <wb9mjn> What s the Cobalt prices looking like lately ?
[05:48:56] <dmess> or is that 10 million... doesnt matter.. lottsa $$
[05:49:19] <dmess> cobalt out of korea is ruling the world right now
[05:49:32] <les_w> I was talking to the IGUS rep yesterday...he is dropping by the shop. He said they are cloning their energycains.
[05:49:37] <dmess> yg... kebelco
[05:50:20] <dmess> ener who??
[05:50:27] <les_w> oops
[05:50:32] <les_w> energy chain
[05:51:04] <les_w> you know, the flex cnc conduit
[05:51:20] <dmess> slinky stuff
[05:51:32] <les_w> yeah. I use it a lot.
[05:51:32] <wb9mjn> That would be easy...just a few molds..and a room full of girls snapping em together...
[05:51:56] <dmess> and they make molds for no $$$
[05:52:11] <dmess> they have all the steel these days too
[05:52:13] <les_w> He said they are making it with something other than filled nylon 66
[05:52:20] <les_w> something junky
[05:52:29] <wb9mjn> Problem is the resin, if its going to crack with temp and humidity variation....
[05:52:56] <dmess> filled with what.. minerals.... min-lon type stuff??
[05:53:18] <les_w> secret sauce. Moly I think
[05:53:32] <wb9mjn> We have a problem with Chinese regrinding long-fiber nylon...and sell cheap insulators....They crack quite easy then, too...
[05:53:38] <les_w> I have sheets of the stuff
[05:53:57] <dmess> i worked with "a plastic"... turned out to be 88% quartz filler
[05:53:58] <wb9mjn> Usually its filled with long fiber fiberglass...about 1/8 inch long actually....
[05:54:09] <les_w> right
[05:54:26] <wb9mjn> But, when its reground, the fibers are down to 1/64 th...and have very little strength benefit...
[05:54:45] <dmess> most abrasive plasit ive seen cold yet
[05:55:45] <dmess> we made a mould to shoot that size fibergalss as filler.... carbide runner and gate
[05:56:22] <les_w> one of my cars has a nylon intake manifold...glass filled. Looks like 30%
[05:57:12] <dmess> yeah chevy played with them...volvo... audi...saab
[05:57:42] <wb9mjn> My car has a plastic intake manifold...had a leak last winter...they had to redesign the gasket for it, the tech said...
[05:58:32] <dmess> flatness issues too last i heard...warpage to temp/cycles stuff
[05:58:58] <wb9mjn> Chinese nylon!
[05:59:01] <les_w> this one did well...it's a BMW
[05:59:10] <wb9mjn> Saturn here...
[05:59:16] <les_w> lost metal cast
[05:59:23] <dmess> use of more carbon fiber will stabalize the composite structures.. eventually
[05:59:47] <wb9mjn> Saturn's middle name is "lost foam"....
[06:00:02] <wb9mjn> But just for the aluminum parts...
[06:00:05] <les_w> the things are really smooth and polished inside
[06:00:06] <dmess> yes.. and they ARE good at it
[06:00:37] <les_w> I think audi is using aluminum manifolds only now
[06:01:18] <dmess> its possible most of their newer engines are HOT litttle numbers...
[06:01:34] <wb9mjn> Torlon, Peek, PPS, Ultem all good for intake manifolds...
[06:01:41] <wb9mjn> PPS might be a little brittle...
[06:01:53] <wb9mjn> Peek is quite cheap...
[06:01:58] <dmess> lottsa revs... high pressure systems...
[06:02:24] <les_w> yeah...use it in our electrostatic guns
[06:02:54] <wb9mjn> Good choice...low dielectric loss...
[06:03:24] <les_w> I had to design the conductive coating on it
[06:03:25] <wb9mjn> Hard to machine...at least that s what they tell me...
[06:04:00] <wb9mjn> I drilled a hole in it, and the bit came out radiating plenty of heat....
[06:04:26] <les_w> never machined it much
[06:04:55] <les_w> it's the melty/grabby ones like acrylic I hate
[06:04:59] <les_w> to machine
[06:05:24] <wb9mjn> Its not so melty...but it has lots of friction....
[06:05:52] <wb9mjn> They wont let me use it for stuff at work....because of that...
[06:06:23] <les_w> I ended up using a phenolic/novolac for the polymer thick film coating
[06:06:49] <wb9mjn> Better for injection molding stuff...
[06:07:36] <les_w> I just had to spray coat the bells...and it had to survive long term immersion in toluene and other solvents
[06:11:24] <wb9mjn> Anyway....
[06:17:57] <dmess> i need info an machining aermet100 from the outside world... any thoughts??
[06:18:20] <wb9mjn> What is aermet ?
[06:18:49] <dmess> post heat treat machining is a biath for material abuse..( rehardenin/retempering)
[06:19:07] <anonimasu> nice ^_^
[06:19:11] <dmess> high alloy ultra high strength steel
[06:19:40] <dmess> it ALL has to undergo NDT
[06:20:44] <dmess> ive heard of raw forgings in the 60000$ us range
[06:21:50] <dmess> pre hard its kinda like 300m but post h/t its crap to cut
[06:22:15] <les_w> check the carpenter site?
[06:22:46] <dmess> h/t make the parts move in all sorts a different ways... we work with them integrally
[06:23:18] <dmess> their way dont work either...
[06:23:58] <dmess> or any better... we can cut it.. we just abuse the SHIT out of it
[06:24:16] <les_w> looks like nasty stuff
[06:24:21] <les_w> 13.5% cobalt
[06:24:32] <dmess> yeah... moly too
[06:24:47] <les_w> but only .23 carbon
[06:24:49] <les_w> hmm
[06:24:49] <wb9mjn> They have those machines for machining ceramic...ultrasound vibratratory diamond cutter....
[06:25:07] <dmess> tough as nails ouce you have a part
[06:25:07] <wb9mjn> Expensive I bet....
[06:25:40] <wb9mjn> Chemical milling would be another way...
[06:25:48] <wb9mjn> Expensive again...
[06:25:59] <dmess> i worked on DMG ultrasonic... cheap.. but i think we'd still fail mag particke at that point
[06:26:16] <wb9mjn> But supposed to be able make a mirror finish...
[06:26:23] <les_w> 90% of what I machine is either 1020, 12l10, or 1144
[06:26:38] <dmess> chemical not an option... hydrogen embrittlement issues
[06:27:48] <dmess> les.. that stuff need a moderately good tool and sfm to be dialed in to make them golden...
[06:27:55] <les_w> I studied that some...set up acoustic emissin analysis for shakeys in elgin
[06:28:04] <les_w> (Shakeproof)
[06:29:11] <dmess> double disk grinders we had at stackpole had the oscillation comped out by the servos
[06:29:58] <dmess> we could have used your idea to how much to comp out
[06:30:09] <les_w> yeah....modern servos systems can do antivibration and stuff
[06:30:26] <dmess> 15 yrs ago my friend
[06:30:31] <les_w> cool
[06:31:24] <les_w> I hired a couple profs at northern illinois to work on it
[06:31:54] <les_w> needs a lot of feedforward
[06:32:09] <les_w> because you are passing through poles
[06:32:09] <dmess> we put indicator on the disks... maped them to the axis and measured a whack of parts.... then i programmed the wheels to counter osscilate..
[06:33:10] <les_w> ha...kinda like that "antigouge" I had to put in the turkey call code before we improved that tp problem
[06:33:39] <dmess> huh??
[06:34:19] <les_w> The emc tp was putting a nasty gouge in the parts
[06:34:24] <les_w> bad math
[06:34:53] <dmess> you put in a go around sign ... or did you fix it
[06:35:34] <les_w> we didn't really fix the code...Paul remmed out a suspect area and it helped a bunch
[06:35:48] <les_w> but we also remmed out velocity adaptation
[06:36:06] <les_w> #ifdefed it really
[06:36:10] <dmess> random rems.... hmmm i feel better already... ; )===~~~~
[06:36:41] <les_w> so emc still totally screws up velocity
[06:36:49] <les_w> but it does follow the path
[06:37:07] <dmess> so whats up with speed controll...
[06:37:25] <les_w> on emc?
[06:37:50] <les_w> it's related to the point that cruise phase disappears
[06:37:51] <dmess> throttle is nice for those who DONT want their balls to the wall all the time
[06:38:21] <dmess> so its loing it in decell???
[06:38:26] <dmess> losing
[06:38:44] <les_w> it's just plain miscalculating
[06:38:52] <les_w> and we can't find it
[06:39:35] <dmess> so it IS doing something... just the wrong thing...
[06:39:51] <les_w> once the point spacing is enough for a cruise phase it's ok
[06:40:04] <les_w> but only then
[06:40:30] <dmess> so its point density at cruise phase...
[06:40:41] <anonimasu> les_w: what were the address to your page?
[06:40:52] <les_w> www.lmwatts.com
[06:40:55] <anonimasu> * anonimasu just cant remember it
[06:41:34] <anonimasu> les_w: how does the turkey calls work ?
[06:41:56] <les_w> yeah, the code now ifdefed out controls that some...but it had such a horrible error in it before that there basically was no g64 mode
[06:42:16] <les_w> they work like chalk on a blackboard
[06:42:23] <les_w> the surface is slate
[06:42:38] <anonimasu> ah ok
[06:42:52] <dmess> is TP capable of speed control within itself??
[06:43:45] <dmess> or timing to programmed feed??
[06:43:57] <les_w> It is supposed to. Properly written the tp shoud take impossible motion commands and slow down till they are possible
[06:44:20] <dmess> but??
[06:44:28] <les_w> it does not do that
[06:44:41] <les_w> and we can't find it
[06:45:09] <dmess> so it IS that screwed up... cuting a mold cavity will be impossible???
[06:45:42] <les_w> pretty much. It will follow the path, but with unpredictable feed
[06:46:05] <dmess> even with feedback??
[06:46:09] <les_w> yeah
[06:46:20] <les_w> unless there is a cruise phase
[06:46:25] <dmess> sheite
[06:46:29] <les_w> then it's ok
[06:46:36] <les_w> yeah really
[06:46:45] <les_w> eats up tools
[06:47:33] <dmess> will it cruise in 2 axes and allow the z to contour up and down... 2 axis stable velocity??
[06:47:35] <les_w> Need a long talk with fred about this. He's a little hard to reach though.
[06:47:47] <les_w> dmess: no
[06:48:10] <dmess> how much code we lookin at??
[06:48:31] <les_w> bet whatever is broken is a line or two
[06:48:56] <dmess> i know.. but TP is how big to search thru??
[06:49:03] <les_w> in tp.c or tc.c
[06:49:38] <dmess> the kids jacked my linux pc in exchange for room for a tree...
[06:49:39] <les_w> dmess: it's a thousand lines or so...something like that
[06:50:03] <les_w> perhaps a couple
[06:50:12] <dmess> could you email to me... i have good friends to
[06:50:25] <dmess> too
[06:50:41] <les_w> yeah, but you can just grab it from SF
[06:50:44] <les_w> I think
[06:51:01] <les_w> let me see
[06:51:15] <dmess> is this TP supposed to incorporate machine kinematics??
[06:52:24] <anonimasu> needle & haystack..
[06:52:26] <anonimasu> kind of :/
[06:53:34] <les_w> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/emc/emc/src/emcmot/tp.c?rev=1.20&view=log
[06:53:53] <les_w> the tp uses trivial kinematics
[06:54:58] <dmess> how trivial... kiematics IS trivial
[06:56:11] <les_w> line 535
[06:58:36] <dmess> if (0 == tp) {
[06:58:36] <dmess> return -1;
[06:58:36] <dmess> }
[06:59:51] <dmess> next few lines set to 0 dont look right
[07:00:42] <les_w> look at 572 as well
[07:00:57] <les_w> that's where the horrible deccels came from
[07:01:33] <les_w> 582 specifically
[07:02:40] <les_w> he is doing a test on a root mean square
[07:03:05] <Jymmm> "What you mean PU takes longer to dry when it's 62 outside?!"
[07:03:14] <les_w> that bit really, really does not work
[07:03:15] <dmess> this is RAW code for VARIOUS type of kinematics.. TP is trying to pile them ALL on top of one another....
[07:03:41] <les_w> tell me about it...
[07:04:11] <dmess> right now.. cause you havent picked one to work with
[07:04:29] <les_w> words like "combined velocity" are weird....
[07:04:39] <dmess> set 1 so the first one and report back..
[07:04:40] <les_w> seemingly meaning RMS
[07:05:09] <dmess> no combined vel.. are .. kins + axes ..= actual...
[07:05:38] <les_w> note the dot products in there
[07:06:10] <dmess> matric...tranformations..
[07:06:31] <dmess> from the establishe kinematics..
[07:07:35] <dmess> i'll nee to print and refect on this further...but i think its user oriented
[07:07:58] <les_w> Well as we found that bit is just plain wrong...but #ifdefing it out sure doesnt fix everything
[07:08:00] <Jymmm> dmess: "jacketed" as in covered up?
[07:08:09] <les_w> did it cause it helped a bunch
[07:08:33] <les_w> before every single move had a huge deccel spike in it
[07:08:48] <les_w> often all the way to dead stop
[07:09:08] <Jymmm> les_w should it me linear?
[07:09:10] <Jymmm> be
[07:09:13] <dmess> ok i'll never say dont fix something.... but why did it fix it i ask??
[07:09:55] <les_w> seemingly line 582 is wrong math
[07:10:24] <dmess> some spaghetti programming HAS been rectified elswhere... are 2 things pushing against each other???
[07:10:25] <les_w> 599 as well
[07:11:00] <les_w> this is so convoluted none of us can figure it out
[07:11:07] <les_w> except fred
[07:11:11] <les_w> I hope
[07:11:37] <Jymmm> Maybe the Board should address that.
[07:11:53] <les_w> I can't even understand why a RMS is there
[07:12:11] <les_w> it isn't in the normal trap tp calculations
[07:12:59] <dmess> its the 2 * dot product...
[07:12:59] <les_w> jymmm, we have talked about it for ages. We just can't figure it out.
[07:13:26] <les_w> hence the long talk with fred.
[07:13:37] <les_w> I'll keep trying
[07:13:56] <dmess> les i didnt see the 2 * bit.... thats gotta fack up wher tp is pointing in space....
[07:14:16] <les_w> If he knows what we did, and what happened, he might have some insight
[07:14:21] <Jymmm> les_w: Well, what about seriously commenting the code then having Fred proof what has been done and he can clarify anything.
[07:14:32] <les_w> right
[07:15:45] <les_w> We had suspected this part of the code because it was added much later. Semmingly it was not tested either.
[07:15:58] <les_w> seemingly
[07:16:06] <dmess> there are blending blocks OFF commands all over the place
[07:16:21] <les_w> right
[07:16:25] <les_w> ALL over
[07:16:42] <dmess> is the original NIST TP available??
[07:16:46] <les_w> that seems to work...it does blend
[07:17:23] <les_w> go back below 1.10
[07:19:53] <dmess> unless someone can hand me a var list.... i'm not likin' this...
[07:20:14] <les_w> look at the 5 sept 97 revision comments
[07:20:46] <les_w> that makes no sense to me whatsoever
[07:22:32] <dmess> he MADE it drop motion commands.. makes sense to me... but WHY?
[07:24:00] <dmess> if it got 1 before completion of of another... monitor execId and ditch it??
[07:24:11] <les_w> " later short motions before earlier long motions complete"
[07:24:18] <les_w> huh??!!
[07:24:32] <dmess> small points too close to deal with .. lose some..
[07:25:18] <les_w> but g code is a sequential list
[07:25:45] <dmess> yes.. this IS blending the g-code...
[07:26:42] <dmess> from when it gets a new piot to its end regardless of if the last tool piont has been reached...
[07:27:09] <dmess> sorry spellin not so best
[07:27:38] <dmess> who is wps???
[07:27:46] <les_w> not making sense to me...remember that math for it on my site
[07:27:47] <alex_joni> shackleford
[07:28:01] <les_w> (Where did I put that)
[07:31:45] <les_w> oh heh...
[07:31:49] <les_w> http://www.lmwatts.com/traj/traptp.html
[07:31:56] <les_w> lost it for a minute!
[07:42:41] <les_w_away> my ups battery is totally shot
[07:43:09] <les_w_away> I use those cheap $13 tractor batteries
[07:43:18] <les_w_away> time for another
[07:43:27] <dmess> so TP issues time and velocity commands... correct..??
[07:44:03] <les_w_away> pretty much
[07:45:39] <dmess> WITh blending cruise should only be reache once...then maintaned in a range determined by the type accel/decell available.. trap in this caes...
[07:45:54] <dmess> case
[07:46:10] <les_w_away> right
[07:46:50] <les_w_away> when nocruise is possible it reverts to triangular
[07:47:03] <les_w_away> and of course takes longer
[07:47:15] <les_w_away> that is velocity adaptation
[07:47:24] <dmess> so it slows down... no??
[07:47:30] <les_w_away> yes
[07:47:57] <dmess> is trap the only option??
[07:47:58] <les_w_away> as it should
[07:48:15] <dmess> to triangular
[07:48:52] <les_w_away> Well remember it is also subinterpolated by a cubic
[07:48:58] <les_w_away> at the servo rate
[07:49:44] <dmess> hmm so sevo response would deffinitly be better than servo
[07:50:05] <dmess> setepper
[07:50:44] <dmess> but i WANT a HIGH SPEED MACHINE... for x -mas...
[07:51:05] <dmess> EMC2 powered
[07:51:43] <les_w_away> well yes servo is dramatically better than steppers in machine tools
[07:51:57] <les_w_away> I use steppers...just not in machine tools.
[07:52:09] <les_w_away> for hobby steppers are fine
[07:52:10] <dmess> i know .. im just lazy these days
[07:52:41] <dmess> im lookin at buyin a 2 tool cell.. 10 pallets...
[07:53:05] <les_w_away> I have to get a small vmc
[07:53:24] <dmess> if all goes to pot at work... i'l be standing there to make their offload
[07:54:00] <les_w_away> If business keeps going well I might buy a new one.
[07:54:03] <dmess> its gonna be a military facility... by the looks of it
[07:54:17] <les_w_away> I would rather rebuild an old one ...more fun
[07:54:39] <dmess> i know of 2 toshiba nx76's and the pool in front
[07:55:24] <dmess> id buy 2 and tool them to pay for toys in a minute...
[07:55:46] <les_w_away> I have some to look at in atlanta...just haven't
[07:56:18] <les_w_away> It seems making prototypes is becoming an important part of the business
[07:56:36] <les_w_away> want to be a "one stop shop"
[07:56:43] <dmess> i was a prototype maker for 9 yrs...
[07:57:04] <dmess> automotive and commercial
[07:57:08] <les_w_away> we do the design (tronics and mechanical) and build functional protos in one place
[07:57:28] <dmess> cool..
[07:57:41] <les_w_away> les_w_away is now known as les_w
[07:57:56] <dmess> made a pair of $10000 skates once
[07:58:05] <les_w> customers like it
[07:58:17] <les_w> 10,000 skates?
[07:58:20] <dmess> yup one stop shoppin'
[07:58:34] <dmess> yes.. hockey skates....
[07:58:38] <les_w> wow
[07:59:07] <dmess> replacable baldes.... in 3 minutes or les...
[07:59:19] <dmess> i made the blades too..
[07:59:36] <dmess> carbon fiber tuck
[07:59:58] <les_w> got some awfully expensive protos in the shop now too
[08:00:14] <dmess> bladechangers or somethine like that google it
[08:00:25] <les_w> k
[08:01:03] <dmess> yr after i left they made a 20 set run for NIKE...
[08:02:00] <dmess> i think blade trder is still the local who wont let a good thing die..
[08:02:16] <les_w> couldn't find "bladechanger"
[08:02:59] <dmess> nice skate.. search quick change hockry blades
[08:03:07] <les_w> woops...more wood in the stove...wood heat works...but takes a couple hundred pounds a day
[08:04:02] <dmess> and as long as you lose 1 lb a day it makes up for the summer... when you get lazy
[08:07:31] <dmess> set of skates with 3 x 3 mm blades.. slotted to pick up an aluminum slip on to a carbon fiber tuck support onto a brand new set of bauer boots
[08:08:17] <les_w> http://www.iceprossports.com/Detail.bok?no=1521
[08:08:19] <les_w> ?
[08:08:32] <dmess> there's a cam in the heel to tension up the blade onto and thru the c/f
[08:09:01] <les_w> brb getting wood from the barn
[08:13:22] <les_w> blah
[08:13:40] <dmess> cold les??
[08:14:05] <les_w> just damp. 36 and rain/sleet
[08:14:22] <dmess> us too.. kids want me to go bowling tonite with them...
[08:14:52] <dmess> 32 F..w @ 25mph
[08:15:15] <dmess> flurries expected
[08:15:20] <les_w> colder onthe mountain tops. It was 7 degrees this morning on mt mitchell
[08:15:37] <les_w> wind here expected to increase to 70 mph tonight
[08:15:46] <dmess> ohh but clear ehh..
[08:16:07] <les_w> that's why I need to fire up the generator and get ready
[08:16:20] <dmess> 70 mph is hide your wing weather...
[08:16:38] <dmess> you off grid les??
[08:17:56] <les_w> no but I will be for a while when that wind comes
[08:18:13] <les_w> power outages take a long time to fix here
[08:18:23] <dmess> i understand..
[08:18:29] <les_w> ice storms are the worst
[08:19:13] <les_w> power bumps often knock the cnc into estop
[08:20:13] <dmess> beter e-stop than dumpster divin
[08:20:35] <les_w> yeah
[08:20:40] <les_w> pete you there?
[08:21:01] <dmess> cutting steel with the spindle drive dogs SUCKS...
[08:21:13] <les_w> heh
[08:21:53] <dmess> but with 6 gpm coolant flow it doesnt even HAVE to GLOW
[08:22:19] <dmess> the tool just went away
[08:22:26] <petev_> les_w: yes
[08:22:57] <les_w> I'll be running pretty hot tools with the new spindle
[08:23:07] <les_w> cooled with air jet
[08:23:41] <dmess> mat'l??
[08:24:05] <les_w> turkey calls...this year figured maple
[08:24:46] <les_w> it scorches easily
[08:25:01] <dmess> hee ha... i wish i could afford one on the allowance i get from my wife
[08:25:24] <les_w> these are a hundred bucks msrp
[08:25:29] <dmess> can you keep a secret les....
[08:25:49] <les_w> I make them for the company at $20 a pop quan 1000
[08:26:08] <les_w> haha sure.....
[08:26:12] <dmess> i SEEN a ceramic end mill about 5 yrs ago,,,,
[08:26:39] <dmess> held it in my hand and everything
[08:27:28] <les_w> the MDF guys run PC diamond red hot
[08:27:41] <dmess> HANITA out of Isreal
[08:27:50] <les_w> 25 hp in a half inch end mill
[08:28:22] <dmess> hee haaa.... r & R
[08:28:55] <dmess> no this was a 3mm b/n
[08:29:08] <les_w> power flicker....made it that time
[08:29:22] <les_w> ups bat will last about 1 second
[08:29:26] <dmess> made to run into the stratos..
[08:30:10] <dmess> she' blowin; away around ya??
[08:30:33] <les_w> I have been using c4 carbide...lasts about 4 hours in production
[08:30:38] <les_w> no no wind yet
[08:30:45] <les_w> ice I guess
[08:30:53] <les_w> freezing rain in places
[08:33:31] <dmess> cost of c4.... in around you...
[08:34:09] <les_w> well a spiral downcut 1/2 is about $50
[08:34:31] <les_w> we get 4 sharpenings before the primary bevel is gone
[08:34:54] <les_w> actually secondary
[08:35:03] <dmess> brb gotta take the muttage out for it makes me clean somthing up
[08:35:15] <les_w> haha k
[08:35:47] <dmess> good usage... remember to adjust rpm to suite sfm... with regrinds...
[08:37:37] <etla> anyone of you using vital servocards ?
[08:42:47] <les_w> I use stg. K9.... uses the vital card but is off right now
[08:43:12] <petev_> etla, I have a vital
[08:43:12] <les_w> Ken are you on?
[08:43:15] <etla> ok, stg is only for ISA isn't it ?
[08:43:19] <les_w> right
[08:43:27] <etla> pete: are you happy with it ?
[08:43:33] <petev_> it's pretty decent
[08:43:38] <etla> what servo update rate are you running ?
[08:43:56] <petev_> it's just on the benc right now with the default 1ms
[08:43:59] <petev_> bench
[08:44:35] <les_w> discussion of slow block read and tp nasties just poped up on the list
[08:45:07] <etla> yeah...
[08:45:22] <etla> only problem is that the current code is so unreadable noone wants to touch it...
[08:47:25] <les_w> yup.
[08:49:52] <les_w> trying to raise ken now
[08:51:14] <les_w> he needs that little spiral program paul and I put together
[08:51:55] <dmess> spiral program???
[08:51:56] <les_w> makes gcode with a constant angular displacement spiral (helix really)
[08:52:16] <les_w> as it gets closer to the center the points get closer
[08:52:16] <etla> from zillions of g01 moves...
[08:52:20] <dmess> helical interpolation??
[08:52:25] <les_w> till it breaks into the stutter
[08:52:38] <les_w> no it is g1 moves
[08:52:58] <etla> huh ? g01 <-> g1, same thing ?
[08:52:59] <dmess> helical interpolation macro...??
[08:53:18] <les_w> g01==g1
[08:53:26] <les_w> it's a c program.
[08:54:12] <les_w> I forgot whether paul put it on sf
[08:54:15] <les_w> I think so
[08:54:23] <les_w> somewhere
[08:54:30] <etla> but is it really 'reasonable' g-code of the block rate exceeds the servo update rate ?
[08:54:34] <etla> if
[08:55:03] <petev_> I don't think the block rate can exceed the TP rate now or it will be bad
[08:55:23] <les_w> etla, if velocity adaptation was working properly that would never happen
[08:55:59] <dmess> we used a similar motion to calculte runer lenght in plastics.. its a reasonable benchmark
[08:56:20] <les_w> it would (and should) slow down enough to make the path with the specified max vel, accel, and traj period
[08:56:31] <les_w> however
[08:56:36] <les_w> it does not
[08:57:02] <dmess> from above LES?
[08:57:04] <les_w> and breaks into a violent stutter
[08:57:14] <etla> right.
[08:57:50] <dmess> its smoothing piont too close together to smooth
[08:58:03] <dmess> trying
[08:58:14] <les_w> the block rate is rather low because the servo rate is as well
[08:58:23] <les_w> which is a problem
[08:58:51] <les_w> seemingly independent of pc speed
[08:59:01] <etla> have you tried filtering the g01's to arc's in some cam program ?
[08:59:12] <etla> yes I have heard that about the servo rate...
[08:59:13] <les_w> but might be related to interface card some
[08:59:34] <etla> jon elson always mentions 10kHz with ppmc
[08:59:36] <dmess> so its an angulation limitation
[08:59:42] <etla> but most people actually use 1kHz
[08:59:46] <petev_> les_w: did you test this with servo to go?
[08:59:56] <les_w> yeah
[09:00:05] <petev_> the ISA bus is very slow and may be your bottleneck
[09:00:10] <les_w> might be better with vital
[09:00:14] <petev_> yep
[09:00:20] <Jymmm> 33MHz
[09:00:34] <petev_> isa is 4MHz
[09:00:37] <les_w> etla, wish you could run a test for us
[09:00:55] <les_w> drop servo period till it goes nuts or locks
[09:00:57] <etla> les: I'm sorry I don't have any servo cards
[09:01:07] <etla> just planning what to buy
[09:01:31] <les_w> oh you have the vital but no amps and encoders yet?
[09:02:00] <etla> eh um, I have motors on order, planning a servo-amp of my own and considering what servocard to get
[09:02:08] <etla> meanwhile using two stepper based mills
[09:02:28] <les_w> k
[09:02:52] <les_w> jon's 10 kHz rate I think is extrapolation
[09:02:52] <etla> promise not to laugh too hard:
[09:02:54] <etla> http://www.anderswallin.net/2005/11/27/motor-mount-for-new-opti-motor/
[09:03:08] <les_w> we think the limit is more like 2 kHz
[09:03:18] <les_w> looking
[09:03:31] <etla> yes the 10kHz is probably sales talk
[09:03:50] <dmess> Les the servo card overides or conflicts with max/min limits no??
[09:04:35] <les_w> I think (from paul's work) that nml is the issue...not the servo card
[09:04:47] <les_w> anders nice fly cutting
[09:05:30] <les_w> cut just right makes a nice diffraction grating
[09:05:35] <dmess> smoothing in TP as well as smoothing in servo card.... i dont like the sound of the outcome
[09:06:07] <etla> yeah well, you get what you pay for, our mill is a cheap chinese product although it's sold under a german name
[09:06:09] <les_w> well, servo emc really does not use a servo card...just an io card
[09:06:26] <etla> I don't think theres any smoothing on the servo card
[09:06:36] <les_w> no there is none
[09:07:24] <etla> but you think the bottleneck is between interp and motion control ?
[09:07:27] <etla> and not your stg card
[09:07:29] <dmess> acel/decelll... is smoothing
[09:08:01] <les_w> bottle neck is rt/user space communications
[09:08:07] <les_w> according to paul
[09:08:14] <les_w> and I think he is right
[09:08:15] <dmess> or jerk.. as some jap systems call it
[09:08:18] <Jymmm> Anyone want to hear a joke?
[09:08:44] <les_w> jerk is just daccel/dt
[09:08:59] <les_w> yes a joke please.
[09:09:04] <les_w> emc tp?
[09:09:05] <les_w> haha
[09:09:13] <Jymmm> There was a man who worked for the Post Office, whose job it was to process all the mail that had illegible addresses. One day, a letter came to his desk, addressed in a shaky handwriting, to God. He thought he should open it to see what it was about. He opened it and read:
[09:09:13] <etla> good one.
[09:09:18] <Jymmm> Dear God, I am an 83 year old widow, living on a very small pension. Yesterday someone stole my purse. It had $100.00 in it, which was all the money I had until my next pension check. Next Sunday is Christmas, and I had invited two of my friends over for dinner. Without that money, I have nothing to buy food with. I have no family to turn to, and you are my only hope. Can you please help me? Sincerely, Edna
[09:09:22] <Jymmm> The postal worker was touched. He showed the letter to all of the other workers. Each of them dug into his wallet and came up with a few dollars. By the time he made the rounds, he had collected $96.00, which they put into an envelope and sent to the woman. The rest of the day, all of the workers felt a warm glow for the kind thing they had done.
[09:09:27] <Jymmm> Christmas came and went. A few days later, another letter came from the old lady, to God. All of the workers gathered around while the letter was opened. It read:
[09:09:30] <dmess> for us... in janglish its accel / decell
[09:09:32] <Jymmm> Dear God, How can I ever thank you enough for what you did for me? Because of your gift of love, I was able to fix a glorious dinner for my friends. We had a very nice day and I told my friends of your wonderful gift. By the way, there was $4 missing. I think it must have been those thieving bastards at the Post Office. Sincerely, Edna
[09:10:55] <les_w> haha
[09:12:17] <etla> anyone good at electronics here ? might need some help with the servodrive
[09:12:47] <dmess> i'll send the 4.00 send particulars for further investigation
[09:12:47] <petev_> etla: you using DC brushed or AC?
[09:12:54] <etla> AC
[09:13:02] <Jymmm> lol
[09:13:05] <etla> I got the surpluscenter sanyo motors
[09:13:09] <petev_> oh, do you really want to mess with a drive for that?
[09:13:28] <etla> well, it would be based on a motion IC by irmck
[09:13:36] <petev_> jmk is the best guy to talk to, but AC is not easy
[09:13:44] <les_w> if icee and lawrence kit one up why not haha
[09:13:46] <dmess> i can smoke anything
[09:13:46] <etla> if you have a cnczone username, see http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14673
[09:14:18] <etla> when I've sorted out a few more things I'll present it to a larger audience
[09:14:22] <petev_> I saw talks between jmk and those guys
[09:14:29] <les_w> I am having to program the new spindle vfd. It's a pain
[09:14:31] <etla> hope to catch major faults before proto stage
[09:14:33] <petev_> if you need something working soon, I wouldn't count on it
[09:14:55] <etla> well, before summer (which year?? ;)
[09:15:06] <les_w> haha
[09:15:24] <les_w> being commercial, I just buy the stuff.
[09:15:38] <les_w> although we like good deals too
[09:15:41] <dmess> monday.... friday.. GUY
[09:16:08] <les_w> if we can get a bunch of $300 servo amps on ebay for $75, we will
[09:16:48] <etla> yeah, the electronics is also a kind of hobby for me
[09:16:57] <etla> wouldn't do it otherwise
[09:17:03] <les_w> right
[09:17:41] <les_w> I am having a bit of trouble justifying another emc machine conversion
[09:17:41] <dmess> i just like lettin the SMOKE ouutta things....
[09:17:48] <les_w> might anyway though.
[09:18:12] <les_w> It would be cheaper just to buy a Haas
[09:18:20] <dmess> then turn it DOWN 1 notch
[09:18:24] <etla> you buy old machines and convert them
[09:18:27] <les_w> just one
[09:18:49] <les_w> yeah...converting machines would be fun
[09:18:51] <etla> yes if you count your hours also it probably is cheaper
[09:19:00] <les_w> but the opportunity cost...
[09:19:12] <les_w> I am booked solid with engineering work
[09:19:32] <dmess> sub out the machining..
[09:19:47] <les_w> so playing with old machines means earning -$100/hr
[09:19:53] <dmess> do the brain work
[09:19:55] <les_w> note the negative sign!
[09:20:15] <dmess> all +
[09:20:29] <etla> but it might be more _fun_ ?
[09:20:34] <dmess> note the positive sign
[09:20:59] <les_w> actually...good idea. One of my guys is a retired engineer.
[09:20:59] <dmess> OLD machines BITE
[09:21:14] <les_w> I love to hand scrape and stuff
[09:21:19] <les_w> hard to justify
[09:21:40] <dmess> not enuf $$ in the day
[09:21:49] <les_w> last machine i did was my grinder.
[09:21:58] <les_w> had new spindle bearings
[09:21:59] <les_w> but
[09:22:09] <les_w> bed was worn .0015
[09:22:41] <dmess> hand scraping.. is a dying trade... remind mi i know how
[09:22:54] <les_w> scraped that puppiy in...now it will do +/- 25 millionths with care
[09:22:55] <etla> catch you later guys, gotta sleep.
[09:23:08] <les_w> later
[09:23:20] <dmess> bee bopa loolaa
[09:23:49] <dmess> i hate grinders... ;(
[09:24:13] <les_w> It was fun to put the ground test bar on the surface plate and see the indicator not move
[09:24:25] <les_w> I hate the first pass on grinders
[09:25:13] <dmess> my 1st tool grinder rebuild i maintained for the nwxt 20 yrs... 1 operator...
[09:26:14] <les_w> took 4 hrs of shop time to grind my cnc y /z axis carriage plate
[09:26:21] <dmess> he calls.. i say touch here rub there...
[09:26:22] <les_w> but automatic...
[09:26:30] <les_w> like watching paint dry
[09:26:38] <les_w> (after the first pass)
[09:26:56] <dmess> jig ground
[09:27:31] <les_w> I like lathe work the best I guess
[09:27:37] <les_w> most do I think
[09:28:55] <les_w> now tool post grinders I don't like...have two.
[09:29:01] <les_w> rarely use them
[09:29:04] <les_w> so slow
[09:29:16] <dmess> not if cirularity.... concentricity....and true position are all being checked
[09:29:31] <les_w> have to cover up the lathe bed
[09:29:47] <dmess> try HVOF
[09:30:25] <les_w> harding?
[09:30:33] <les_w> hardinge
[09:31:11] <dmess> hvof sprays on tungsten carbide coating intsted of using chrome
[09:31:21] <les_w> bored ray to death...AGAIN
[09:31:23] <les_w> oh
[09:32:40] <dmess> high velocity oxygen fuel = HVOF
[09:33:37] <les_w> I see
[09:34:44] <les_w> dammit...this wood is too wet. Have to turn on the gas heaters
[09:35:14] <Jymmm> les_w: two gallons of gasoline
[09:35:37] <les_w> like I said I have NEVER....not once...bought dry wood from a firewood seller.
[09:35:41] <dmess> just a spray bottle will do.....
[09:35:44] <les_w> there is no such thing
[09:35:50] <les_w> haha
[09:35:51] <dmess> but be ready...
[09:36:12] <dmess> spray at the bottom of the wood..
[09:36:30] <les_w> I remember the purdue LOX BBQ fire
[09:36:48] <dmess> that was COOl....
[09:36:52] <les_w> yeah
[09:36:58] <dmess> were you THERE??
[09:37:17] <les_w> I go to purdue sometimes. Wasn't there then.
[09:38:03] <dmess> farkin' BBQ from hell... where was the meat...
[09:38:05] <Jymmm> les_w: I hit the lumber store yesterday and looked around their bookshelfs. Not anything specifically regarding woodjoints. Any suggestions?
[09:39:13] <dmess> old double angle mitre's
[09:39:37] <dmess> work like a puzzle
[09:39:39] <Jymmm> dmess: I was looking for reference of various TYPES of joints.
[09:40:06] <dmess> what hand rolled versu machine rolled??
[09:40:22] <Jymmm> dmess: Nah, that's what bongs are for.
[09:40:35] <les_w> FWW has a lot of tapes/dvds
[09:40:41] <les_w> fine woodworking
[09:40:45] <dmess> be pacific
[09:41:05] <Jymmm> dmess: Ok... how do *YOU* know about a dove tail joint?
[09:41:24] <Jymmm> or mortice and tenor, or box joint, etc.
[09:41:37] <les_w> mortice and tenor?
[09:41:37] <dmess> wood joints... is different... can you afford my finishing chainsaw ??
[09:42:11] <Jymmm> les_w you knwo what i mean =)
[09:42:26] <Jymmm> just various types of joints.
[09:42:32] <Jymmm> non-cannibus
[09:42:39] <les_w> I do dovetail joints in metal sometimes
[09:42:43] <dmess> i built a few while apprinticing as a pattern makker you see.. in the olden days
[09:42:43] <les_w> not easy
[09:43:06] <les_w> now the cnc does them
[09:43:16] <les_w> or will
[09:43:27] <dmess> its better isnt it Les
[09:43:28] <les_w> writing some dovetail code
[09:44:02] <Jymmm> les_w: See, I'm thinking there has to be some type of joint to replace dovetail that can be done on cnc router. But a resource for all of them might be nice instead of reinventing the wheel
[09:44:19] <les_w> I keep a power feed industrial shaper set up for reversible glue joint
[09:44:21] <Jymmm> and give ideas for something viable
[09:44:29] <les_w> do dovetails on the cnc!
[09:44:47] <les_w> i'll give you the code when I'm done
[09:44:56] <dmess> tapered jig saw pizzle piece..
[09:45:02] <les_w> yeah
[09:45:43] <les_w> I hope to write a little interactive c program that generates dovetail g code
[09:45:48] <les_w> I just need time
[09:46:09] <dmess> back tapered tools are easily availible
[09:46:20] <les_w> sure
[09:47:20] <les_w> you can do all kinds of decorative joints on a cnc router
[09:47:36] <dmess> later... family
[09:47:43] <les_w> k
[09:47:44] <Jymmm> later dmess
[09:48:09] <Jymmm> les_w: Right, but I'm looking FOR the joints themselves =)
[09:49:18] <Jymmm> Hmmmm, I think I might have found something.... http://www.azwoodman.com/box-joints.html
[09:50:29] <les_w> attacking the fire with bellows
[09:50:34] <Jymmm> lol
[09:50:39] <les_w> need a compressed air line haha
[09:51:41] <Jymmm> 4" dust line in reverse
[09:52:07] <Jymmm> if that's not enough volume... it aint goin up!
[09:52:58] <les_w> I'm gonna go out and get beer for tommorow....haveing folks over
[09:53:16] <les_w> Can't buy beer in the state of georgia on sunday!
[09:53:25] <les_w> why?
[09:53:58] <les_w> cause the're fsckin nuts thats why.
[09:57:05] <Jymmm> lol
[09:57:13] <Jymmm> can't buy sex toys either
[09:57:20] <Jymmm> not even a Sears catalog
[10:04:46] <les_w> hello tensaiteki. New?
[10:05:30] <Tensaiteki> 0909,01yeah, just got my machine set up on emc and was wondering how to enable/setup constant velocity contouring
[10:06:55] <les_w> ok....set g64
[10:07:17] <les_w> you can do that in mdi
[10:07:44] <Tensaiteki> 0909,01that's really all there is to it?
[10:08:02] <les_w> yes
[10:08:33] <Tensaiteki> 0909,01sweet, i thought i was gonna have to go and muck sround in a bunch of ini files again
[10:08:34] <Tensaiteki> 0909,01thanks
[10:08:54] <les_w> there are some issues with emc and constant velocity...but within a limited range it works
[10:08:59] <les_w> yw
[10:11:14] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[10:11:21] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos_
[10:15:40] <Jymmm> are there any rules of what woods do/DONT go together for inlaying to each other?
[10:27:22] <les_w> oh not really
[10:28:53] <les_w> inlays on the turkey calls are cherry, holly, inegre, and other woods
[10:28:59] <les_w> whatever looks nice
[10:30:12] <les_w> for joints of thick pieces....it is good to try to match tangential/radial shinkage values
[10:30:25] <les_w> but this is often violated
[10:30:39] <les_w> the result might be a crack later on
[10:32:52] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWP_Away
[11:01:49] <fenn> * fenn is making dovetail joints.. on a quick change toolpost!
[13:27:29] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos_
[15:10:06] <cradek> argh, after working all afternoon I still don't have my emc machine fixed
[15:28:15] <jepler> cradek: :(
[15:28:25] <jepler> cradek: how badly broken is it?
[15:29:22] <cradek> a new power supply didn't help
[15:29:34] <cradek> don't know if it's the mb or procesor
[15:29:35] <cradek> s
[15:30:01] <cradek> so we brought home a server-class machine (huge) that he said they couldn't give away in a million years
[15:30:05] <cradek> I put my disk in it
[15:30:11] <cradek> it says Booting the kernel... and then reboots
[15:31:09] <cradek> I'm pretty sure the non-rt kernel on the grub menu is the original redhat kernel, so it should boot
[15:32:28] <SWPadnos_> your BDI HD?
[15:32:45] <cradek> well, it's not bdi, but my emc hard drive
[15:33:03] <SWPadnos_> ok - what CPU is in the "new" machine?
[15:33:11] <cradek> PIII 666
[15:33:22] <cradek> old one was an athlon 2x00
[15:33:35] <SWPadnos_> oooohhh - the Devil's CPU - it'll never work ;)
[15:33:43] <cradek> that's my experience so far
[15:34:29] <SWPadnos_> hmmm - if it is an original RH kernel, it should be for i586 or even earlier
[15:34:36] <cradek> yeah, I think so too
[15:34:52] <cradek> I tried to boot from the redhat install CD, but it just skips over and goes to the hard drive
[15:35:13] <cradek> it's possible that all (three) of the cdrom drives I tried are bad
[15:35:15] <rayh> I've found that I often have to remove the hd from the boot
[15:35:24] <rayh> list
[15:35:42] <jepler> cradek: the kernel it's trying to boot is probably athlon-optimized
[15:35:43] <cradek> I did try that and it gave me the insert-bootable-media picture
[15:36:04] <cradek> jepler: I'm pretty sure that it's the original redhat kernel
[15:36:07] <SWPadnos_> how old is the CD-ROM drive (and is it IDE or SCSI?)
[15:36:13] <cradek> jepler: if you rebuild the redhat kernel it gets named -custom
[15:36:22] <cradek> SWPadnos_: I tried both kinds (but they're all old)
[15:36:44] <SWPadnos_> ok
[15:36:44] <cradek> jepler: (I think)
[15:37:25] <jepler> cradek: but redhat9 packaged an athlon kernel
[15:37:40] <cradek> jepler: ohhhh
[15:37:49] <jepler> 13859272 Mar 13 2003 redhat-9/RedHat/RPMS/kernel-2.4.20-8.athlon.rpm
[15:38:01] <cradek> and that wouldn't show up as special on the grub menu
[15:38:08] <rayh> There are debs for most ath including the 64
[15:38:10] <jepler> no, I think it is not shown in the name on the boot menu
[15:38:19] <jepler> rayh: thanks, but irrelevant
[15:38:34] <SWPadnos_> it's a RH box, not Debian-based
[15:38:53] <rayh> can't kpackage handle debs there?
[15:39:05] <cradek> gee, if this kernel were less than 3193503 bytes long, I'd just write it to a floppy...
[15:39:08] <jepler> rayh: that's a terrible idea, and it doesn't help much if the machine can't get as far as running init
[15:39:10] <SWPadnos_> it needs apt to be installed (or dpkg) I think
[15:39:22] <jepler> cradek: I can loan you an athlon machine
[15:39:27] <rayh> just trying to get in the way.
[15:39:53] <jepler> cradek: (it's my windows box, which I try to boot as little as possible)
[15:40:05] <cradek> jepler: I could bring over the disk, plug it in and rebuild the kernel, and we're done
[15:40:15] <rayh> This one is ath and the two next to it.
[15:40:24] <jepler> cradek: that might work. or at least install the .i686 kernel which I think runs on athlons too (but not vice versa)
[15:40:31] <cradek> if I could boot from the CD this would be easy to fix
[15:40:33] <SWPadnos_> cradek -what are you typing on right now?
[15:40:42] <cradek> SWPadnos_: my desktop machine
[15:40:54] <SWPadnos_> and it allows you to plug in hard drives?
[15:41:05] <cradek> SWPadnos_: it's also PIII so it will have the same problem
[15:41:06] <SWPadnos_> and build kernels?
[15:41:10] <jepler> cradek: yeah, SWPadnos_ may be on the right track. put this disk in a machine that works, and run rpm -ivh newkernel from a chroot environment
[15:41:21] <SWPadnos_> ah - nevermind
[15:41:28] <jepler> no no, use chroot and only install the rpm
[15:41:36] <rayh> laters
[15:41:38] <SWPadnos_> actually - try it in this machine - see if it's the box or the install
[15:41:56] <SWPadnos_> right - secondary HD - ok then
[15:41:59] <cradek> but ... I'll have to take apart my only remaining working computer!
[15:42:07] <SWPadnos_> what's the problem ;)
[15:42:14] <cradek> I'll look for another CD drive first on the off chance that I could fix it that way
[15:42:29] <jepler> cradek: redhat9 had a boot floppy, but I don't know if you could get to "rescue mode" from it
[15:42:31] <cradek> any PIII should surely be able to boot from CD correctly
[15:42:57] <jepler> cradek: good luck. If I can help you, I'll be at home tomorrow until 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
[15:43:01] <SWPadnos_> you should be able to specify the CDROM as root
[15:43:05] <cradek> ok, thanks
[15:43:10] <cradek> appreciate the help
[17:07:25] <CIA-5> 03paul_c * 10emc2-auto/wiki/ (9 files in 7 dirs): "Auto update wiki from a cron job. Sun Dec 4 05:30:01 GMT 2005 "
[17:42:50] <K`zan> Night folks
[18:44:31] <Jymmm> cradek I have the RD rescue cd if you need it.
[18:44:38] <Jymmm> S/RD/RH/
[21:14:08] <chinamill> Hello everybody.
[21:15:09] <chinamill> Can anyone direct me how to set up a 4 axis mill with emc2, where shall I look for more info?