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[00:00:00] <jmkasunich> I could get fancy, use a 5KHz thread for the diffs and the scope
[00:00:54] <jmkasunich> ok, changed the max velocities to 12 ips
[00:00:57] <icee> 20 milliseconds is large compared to the couple milliseconds of uncertainty
[00:01:10] <jmkasunich> max and default accel are 20 ips^2
[00:01:23] <SWPadnos_> what's max_vel?
[00:01:36] <jmkasunich> 12
[00:01:53] <SWPadnos_> ok
[00:02:04] <SWPadnos_> I guess 720 IPM is fast enough for testing ;)
[00:02:16] <jmkasunich> ha... I already had vel and acc differentiators in the sim hal file
[00:06:49] <jmkasunich> strange
[00:07:05] <SWPadnos_> strange?
[00:07:05] <jmkasunich> just took 10 seconds to make a 1" move at F30
[00:07:11] <jmkasunich> should only take 2 sec
[00:07:18] <jmkasunich> (and did only take 2 sec before)
[00:07:22] <SWPadnos_> hm
[00:07:33] <SWPadnos_> did you change any thread rates?
[00:07:40] <jmkasunich> gonna change the ini back to 1.2 ips max and see what happens
[00:07:54] <SWPadnos_> try a G0
[00:08:14] <jmkasunich> to late, already shut down
[00:08:20] <SWPadnos_> ok
[00:08:41] <jmkasunich> damn, mini isn't
[00:08:50] <SWPadnos_> yeah - fullscreen
[00:08:56] <SWPadnos_> at least the controls resize
[00:11:18] <jmkasunich> ok, thats gotta be a bug
[00:11:36] <jmkasunich> with limits set to 1.2 ips, a 0.5 ips takes 2 seconds to move 1 inch, as expected
[00:11:52] <jmkasunich> with limits set to 12 ips, a 0.5 ips move takes 10 seconds to move 1inch
[00:12:14] <SWPadnos> no other changes?
[00:12:18] <jmkasunich> nope
[00:12:35] <jmkasunich> changed both traj and axis limits
[00:12:40] <SWPadnos> what's the step rate (I assume you're using freqmod)
[00:12:43] <jmkasunich> should try changing one at a time
[00:12:46] <jmkasunich> nope, emc2
[00:12:57] <SWPadnos> sorry - stepgen?
[00:13:04] <jmkasunich> no steps at all, position command out of the motion controller is just looped back to feedback
[00:13:15] <jmkasunich> emc2's version of sim mode
[00:13:17] <SWPadnos> oh yeah - right
[00:13:38] <jmkasunich> anybody with a working emc2 checkout can do the same thing
[00:13:38] <SWPadnos> (if only you could compile that on a non-rt system)
[00:13:50] <jmkasunich> sudo scripts/emc.run configs/sim.ini
[00:13:56] <SWPadnos> those are floats in motion, right?
[00:14:00] <jmkasunich> yes
[00:14:05] <icee> i need to learn how to use this scope thing
[00:14:15] <icee> it sounds useful
[00:14:18] <SWPadnos> I'll bet there's an overflow somewhere (though I don't immediately see how)
[00:14:25] <jmkasunich> the sim ini even starts the scope for you
[00:14:39] <SWPadnos> I'd try a binary search for the breakover point
[00:15:01] <SWPadnos> 1.2 works, 12 doesn't - try 6.6
[00:15:05] <jmkasunich> gonna check and see if jogs work right
[00:15:15] <icee> too bad the pico hardware isn't supported by emc2
[00:15:16] <SWPadnos> also G0 - just for kicks
[00:15:21] <SWPadnos> it is - kind of
[00:15:32] <icee> kind of? :P
[00:15:42] <jmkasunich> I'm working on the driver, when I'm not chasing bugs
[00:15:53] <SWPadnos> yeah -so shhhh :P
[00:15:57] <icee> cool, i'll need one ;)
[00:16:42] <jmkasunich> jog slider set to 30 ipm (0.5 ips) and thats what I get (with 1.2 max)
[00:17:22] <jmkasunich> G0 X1 took a little less than one sec, matches 1.2 ips max
[00:17:31] <jmkasunich> gonna change to 12 again
[00:18:01] <Jymmm> http://puffinplc.control.com/
[00:19:36] <jmkasunich> ok, jog at 30 ipm is correct
[00:20:05] <SWPadnos> how do the accel profiles look with G0?
[00:20:19] <jmkasunich> G0 X1 took about 500mS
[00:20:47] <jmkasunich> vel peaked at 4
[00:20:57] <jmkasunich> accel went +20, then -20
[00:21:12] <jmkasunich> with some ramping
[00:21:24] <SWPadnos> so you get similar rounding?
[00:21:33] <jmkasunich> about 20mS to go from 0 to 20ips^2
[00:22:08] <jmkasunich> about 30mS to go from +20 ips^2 to -20 ips^2
[00:22:22] <jmkasunich> in three distinct 10mS chunks
[00:22:36] <SWPadnos> traj runs at a 10ms period, right?
[00:22:37] <jmkasunich> thats gotta be interpolation
[00:22:39] <jmkasunich> yep
[00:22:51] <SWPadnos> ok - so there's some cubic thing going on
[00:22:59] <SWPadnos> (or whatever it is now)
[00:23:08] <jmkasunich> anyway, that was G0, gonna try G1 F30
[00:23:26] <SWPadnos> also try longer moves with G0
[00:24:08] <jmkasunich> this move took 2 seconds, as it should
[00:24:38] <SWPadnos> I think everything will be correct (less "rounding" errors) with this accel
[00:24:49] <SWPadnos> I'm curious where the high accel breaks
[00:25:01] <jmkasunich> I'm running 20 accel, 12 maxV
[00:25:06] <jmkasunich> same thing that broke earlier
[00:25:10] <SWPadnos> hm
[00:25:26] <SWPadnos> ok - I thought you were at 1.2 again
[00:26:02] <jmkasunich> did 12, saw the prob, did 1.2, no prob, back at 12 again
[00:26:39] <SWPadnos> hm - that's not encouraging (intermittent problems)
[00:26:51] <jmkasunich> maybe right at startup problems?
[00:26:53] <jmkasunich> gonna restart
[00:27:29] <jmkasunich> dam thats annoying
[00:27:38] <jmkasunich> mini blasting onto the whole screen
[00:28:22] <jmkasunich> still OK
[00:29:39] <SWPadnos_> you can set the geometry pretty easily, though I've forgotten how
[00:29:57] <SWPadnos_> it's especially annoying with a 1920x1200 screen ;)
[00:30:06] <jmkasunich> 1600x1200 here
[00:30:23] <jmkasunich> G1 F240 works right
[00:30:47] <jmkasunich> X5, so that it can actually reach max vel before it needs to slow down
[00:31:13] <jmkasunich> I'm starting to doubt my sanity
[00:31:28] <jmkasunich> I only saw the one bad move, and maybe I typed the F word wrong
[00:32:17] <dave-e> ok...I'm back
[00:32:23] <dave-e> go doesn't fix it
[00:32:31] <dave-e> G0
[00:32:39] <jmkasunich> G0 is just as slow as G1?
[00:32:44] <dave-e> yep
[00:33:16] <dave-e> at 180 commanded...about 300 ms each for accel and decell .... so better than 12 sec at full velocity
[00:33:32] <SWPadnos_> dave-e: can you try a different .ini that uses steppers (and disconnect anything from the parport), and try that?
[00:33:48] <dave-e> absolutely trap
[00:34:05] <dave-e> I suppose so...maybe later...
[00:34:09] <SWPadnos_> it would be good to experiment with accels / vels that would be dangerous in real life :)
[00:34:46] <dave-e> well I left accel at 20 but set max velo to unrealistic levels
[00:34:52] <dave-e> like 12.0
[00:34:57] <jmkasunich> dave: what GUI are you using?
[00:35:04] <dave-e> tkemc
[00:35:30] <dave-e> the system would drive x to about 266 real ips
[00:36:03] <jmkasunich> ipm I hopw
[00:36:14] <dave-e> yep
[00:36:14] <jmkasunich> launch that table into orbit
[00:36:32] <dave-e> oh , there go those units again
[00:36:35] <dave-e> ipm
[00:36:51] <dave-e> it is about 600 Kg...anyway
[00:37:19] <icee> alas, orbit is km/s
[00:37:32] <jmkasunich> hyperbole
[00:37:35] <dave-e> doesn't matter if you are in the way
[00:37:36] <icee> several km/s, that is; it would be a very big number in even ips
[00:37:59] <jmkasunich> if your standing there, 266 ips would seem like orbit
[00:38:07] <jmkasunich> (as you go to clean out your pants)
[00:38:26] <icee> jmka: or try and pry yourself out from wherever the machine/table ended up ;P
[00:38:42] <dave-e> ah....gotta go...see ya later
[00:39:05] <jmkasunich> ok, I got one funny (slower than expected) move the first time I fired up sim.ini (which was with 12 for max vel)
[00:39:31] <icee> i'm not sure it's good for me to hang out on this channel
[00:39:34] <jmkasunich> the previous test with 1.2 was using emc.ini
[00:39:37] <icee> hearing stuff like this just makes me fundamentally nervous
[00:39:48] <jmkasunich> why>
[00:39:49] <icee> i mean, slower-than-expected is better than faster-than-expected
[00:40:00] <icee> or much-farther-than-expected
[00:40:10] <SWPadnos_> that's what E-stop is for ;)
[00:40:15] <jmkasunich> doesn't matter what speed, don't trust SW, only hardwired estop switches
[00:40:19] <jmkasunich> and test them too...
[00:40:19] <icee> jmka: sometimes I'd rather bury my head inthe sand ;)
[00:40:37] <jmkasunich> estop doesn't work, you might
[00:40:45] <jmkasunich> separately from the rest of you
[00:40:47] <icee> yah, I know.
[00:41:30] <jmkasunich> we actually had the mazak estop fail - there was gummed up oil/coolant in the contactor, remove coil power and it would drop out 2 or 3 seconds later
[00:41:40] <icee> it still makes me nervous.. i would like the software to work, and for the estop and limit switches to be an unnecessary redundancy
[00:41:46] <jmkasunich> agreed
[00:43:17] <icee> i've only seen emc do something really bad once
[00:43:30] <icee> the machine hung, but the axis kept turning at the same rate forever
[00:43:41] <icee> i e-stopped it in time.. (my mini mill -doesn't- haveh ard wired limit switches)
[00:43:57] <jmkasunich> was this emc2, and recent?
[00:44:05] <icee> yah, emc2 from a few weeks ago
[00:44:12] <jmkasunich> I may be the guilty party
[00:44:52] <jmkasunich> I put in a fix for one problem that probably caused another
[00:44:54] <icee> any real machine i build where there's a danger to more than property will have a robust estop system thuogh
[00:45:13] <icee> though worst cases (full speed into a limit switch) may result in an unpleasant stop for the machine
[00:45:22] <jmkasunich> yeah
[00:45:39] <jmkasunich> well damn... I can't replicate yet another bug
[00:45:50] <jmkasunich> maybe wasn't even a bug
[00:46:06] <jmkasunich> wanna talk about half-wave rectifiers?
[00:46:36] <icee> ;) sure
[00:46:45] <icee> Harmonic Frequency Magnitude Phase Norm. Mag Norm. Phase
[00:46:45] <icee> -------- --------- --------- ----- --------- -----------
[00:46:45] <icee> 0 0 -2.7591 0 0 0
[00:46:45] <icee> 1 60 167.761 -0.069571 1 0
[00:46:45] <icee> 2 120 5.01699 93.6125 0.0299056 93.6821
[00:46:45] <icee> 3 180 1.84187 15.7644 0.0109791 15.834
[00:46:47] <icee> 4 240 3.71185 -82.647 0.0221258 -82.577
[00:46:59] <icee> there's a fourier analysis of the voltage inside the chassis on a simplified version of my circuit
[00:47:03] <icee> -2.75V of dc bias on the line
[00:47:16] <jmkasunich> what are you assuming for line impedance?
[00:47:43] <icee> that's with .2 ohms + 50 microhenries of reactance on the line
[00:48:19] <jmkasunich> and full load on the bus?
[00:48:25] <icee> yeah
[00:48:43] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich gets out the copulator
[00:49:23] <icee> I am going to characterize some transformers today; I can't find good specifications o nthem
[00:49:31] <icee> have no idea of DCR so I don't know what kind of current/heating that will induce
[00:49:34] <jmkasunich> .018 ohms Xl
[00:50:13] <icee> hm?
[00:50:25] <icee> that seems way too low if you're saying that's the DCR i should expect
[00:50:29] <jmkasunich> 50uH at 60 Hz = 0.018 ohms
[00:50:38] <icee> oh, yah
[00:50:49] <icee> so a total impedance of .22 ohms or so
[00:50:53] <jmkasunich> we're talking about the AC line here, the only transformer is the utility one on the pole, right?
[00:51:04] <jmkasunich> .2 seems hi
[00:51:14] <icee> well, I'm going to have some transformers for DC supplies in the chassis
[00:51:25] <icee> so they're who i should worry about screwing up with the dc bias, right?
[00:51:34] <icee> for low voltage DC supplies
[00:51:35] <icee> 15V and 24V
[00:51:42] <jmkasunich> stop, slow down,
[00:51:46] <icee> OK
[00:51:50] <jmkasunich> I don't know wtf you are talking about
[00:52:05] <jmkasunich> the MAIN 170V dc bus, does it have a transformer or not
[00:52:06] <SWPadnos_> heh
[00:52:10] <icee> No.
[00:52:17] <icee> though SWP says I'm suicidal for not having one ;)
[00:52:21] <jmkasunich> ok, the other supplies are irrelevant
[00:52:23] <SWPadnos_> yup
[00:52:34] <jmkasunich> all the drives I work on don't have transformers, I'm still alive
[00:52:36] <icee> jmka: well, they are.. if 2V of dc bias on their input will make them explode
[00:52:42] <SWPadnos_> but you're a pro ;)
[00:53:24] <icee> that's the reason to care about the DC bias right? what it does to inductive loads
[00:53:34] <jmkasunich> I see, you're worried about main bus Idc * Rline = too much DC volts for your 20-50VA aux supply transformer
[00:53:50] <icee> or are there other reasons to care about the DC bias
[00:54:04] <jmkasunich> I'm worried about what the DC does to the 25KVA transformer on the pole outside your window
[00:54:25] <icee> hm.. the pole shouldn't see much of that DC bias
[00:54:31] <icee> because it's on the other sides of the line reactances
[00:54:48] <jmkasunich> what line reactances?
[00:55:06] <icee> well, the .1 ohms of impedance from my breaker panel to the drive
[00:55:13] <icee> the fraction of an ohm to the pole transformer, etc
[00:55:14] <jmkasunich> nothing between you and that xfmr but wire
[00:55:24] <jmkasunich> bet its less than that
[00:55:34] <icee> that 2V is in the chassis; it's divided by the resistance of the wire
[00:55:38] <jmkasunich> and most of the source impedance is inside that transformer
[00:55:45] <jmkasunich> where do you get 0.2 ohms from
[00:56:02] <icee> I made it up as a worst case number
[00:56:14] <jmkasunich> ok, lets back up and work this problem from the beginning
[00:56:28] <icee> 14 ga wire is 2.6 ohms / 1000 feet, 12 ga is 1.7 ohms/1000 feet
[00:56:40] <jmkasunich> I assume you have US standard, 120/120 split phase power?
[00:56:44] <icee> yup
[00:56:44] <jmkasunich> L1, L2, and N
[00:56:55] <jmkasunich> 120 from L1 or L2 to N, 240 from L1 to L2
[00:57:04] <jmkasunich> how many amps is your feed?
[00:57:08] <jmkasunich> 100, 200?
[00:57:08] <icee> so if i have 100 feet from the breaker panel to the drive at 12 ga, that's .17 ohms
[00:57:11] <icee> 200A
[00:57:47] <jmkasunich> hmmm, the 12ga might be significant
[00:57:59] <jmkasunich> I'm used to the wire being just a little fatter
[00:58:14] <jmkasunich> but lets keep going with these calcs my way, we'll get to the wire eventually
[00:58:18] <icee> OK
[00:58:35] <icee> i'm not sure of the NEC wire size for a 200A service
[00:58:39] <icee> but i can look it up if you want
[00:58:55] <jmkasunich> 200A * 240V = 48KVA
[00:59:21] <jmkasunich> indoors, AWG6 is about 60A, AWG4 is about 100A
[00:59:34] <icee> yah, i think service wiring needs to be larger though
[00:59:36] <SWPadnos_> it should be half that - it's 200A for 120, so 100A per phase (I think)
[00:59:37] <icee> here, i'll see if i can find it easily
[00:59:48] <jmkasunich> but the utility gets away with murder, they use tiny wires, on the expectation that you'll never load that panel to 200A
[01:00:01] <jmkasunich> and if you do, the wires are overhead in free air and get cooled that way
[01:00:22] <jmkasunich> SWP - a 200A panel has a 200A, 2 pole main breaker
[01:00:25] <jmkasunich> so 200A/phase
[01:00:34] <SWPadnos_> ok - interesting
[01:00:48] <SWPadnos_> (maybe I can have a full machine shop here :) )
[01:01:04] <jmkasunich> anyway, transformer impedance is usually about 5%
[01:01:14] <jmkasunich> that means they drop 5% of rated volts at rated amps
[01:01:38] <jmkasunich> so on each phase, 5% of 120 = 6V
[01:02:10] <jmkasunich> 6V drop at 200A = 30 milliohms total impedance (inductive and reactive)
[01:02:40] <icee> and nonreactive, yah
[01:02:47] <jmkasunich> right, oops
[01:02:54] <jmkasunich> inductive and resistive, I meant
[01:03:34] <jmkasunich> when I do sims, I assume 70-80% of that is inductive, 20-30% resistive
[01:04:06] <jmkasunich> if the feed from the xfmr to your panel is long, that might increase the resistive part
[01:04:21] <icee> I don't think the pole transformer will see any DC bias though
[01:04:25] <icee> since I'm recitfying both phases
[01:04:34] <icee> any bias after inrush, that is
[01:04:41] <jmkasunich> I think I agree with that
[01:05:08] <icee> in my simulations, there's no DC bias when i fourier analyze the two hot wires with respect to each other
[01:05:11] <jmkasunich> you will be pushing DC thru the neutral conductor
[01:05:33] <jmkasunich> but that should be OK
[01:05:43] <jmkasunich> gotta make sure the source is balanced
[01:06:02] <icee> that's true. to the extent that the source is unbalanced, some of that DC bias will continue to exist
[01:06:02] <jmkasunich> if one side is 120V and the other is 121, you'll have net DC, cause one side will provide more power
[01:06:19] <jmkasunich> the bigger the bus cap, the worse it will be
[01:06:38] <icee> yah. 3300uF * 4 plus a bunch of 100uF in this case
[01:07:06] <jmkasunich> ultimage worst case, the bus cap is so big that after the 121 side charges it to 121*sqrt(2), it doesn't drop below 120*sqrt(2) and the other side delivers nothing
[01:07:16] <jmkasunich> not bloody likely...
[01:07:30] <jmkasunich> cap the size of a large desk to do that probably
[01:07:33] <icee> yah. i don't think that's much of a risk, there's significant decay in bus voltage
[01:08:00] <icee> i have about 20-30 degrees of conduction at nominal load on both phases
[01:08:09] <jmkasunich> thats good... anyway, getting back to source impedance
[01:08:16] <jmkasunich> 30mohms at the panel
[01:08:34] <jmkasunich> how much did you say AWG12 was, 1.7mohms/ft?
[01:08:38] <icee> yah, let me run the simulation with .030 ohms input impedance, figure out the 'worst case' the pole could see
[01:08:41] <icee> yah
[01:09:20] <jmkasunich> ok, its gonna be hard to wire it with less than 20 feet of 12 AWG, so the branch ckt is gonna contribute more Z than the feed and transformer
[01:09:23] <jmkasunich> and mostly resistive
[01:09:53] <SWPadnos_> those mohm/ft ratings are for single conductors, right? so you shuold have to multiply by 2 to account for both legs?
[01:10:01] <icee> i can actually get the wiring pretty short, but i view having a little resistance and reactance there not as a bad thing
[01:10:04] <icee> some filtering for the rest of the house
[01:10:08] <jmkasunich> I'm not used to that... most of my stuff, the drive load is much closer to the overall transformer size, so the wire Z is much lower compared to the xfmr
[01:10:14] <icee> swp: yes
[01:10:30] <jmkasunich> I was assuming 20 ft round trip, 10ft one way
[01:10:40] <SWPadnos_> ok
[01:10:42] <jmkasunich> panel in the shop
[01:11:02] <jmkasunich> if the shop is across the basement, round trip could easily reach 50 ft or more
[01:11:05] <icee> so, hooked up direct to the pole, nominally:
[01:11:05] <icee> Harmonic Frequency Magnitude Phase Norm. Mag Norm. Phase
[01:11:06] <icee> -------- --------- --------- ----- --------- -----------
[01:11:06] <icee> 0 0 -0.34013 0 0 0
[01:11:06] <icee> 1 60 169.537 0.43743 1 0
[01:11:07] <icee> 2 120 0.702606 97.8887 0.00414426 97.4512
[01:11:26] <icee> the main panel for the house is actually pretty much opposite on the wall where i'm going to put my big tool
[01:11:38] <icee> it's on the outside, the tool is on the inside
[01:11:40] <jmkasunich> ok, so you'll have a long feed
[01:11:48] <icee> no, i mean, i could have a 5 foot feed each way
[01:11:52] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:11:56] <icee> in the ridiculous case
[01:12:00] <jmkasunich> so could be very short
[01:12:35] <jmkasunich> what is your load anyway? 1 HP, fractional, multiple?
[01:12:47] <icee> 1kW servo motors * 4
[01:12:57] <jmkasunich> are you running just axis servos from this, spindle motor is separate?
[01:13:02] <icee> yah
[01:13:21] <icee> though i'm setting up the design of the circuit so it can be used as a VFD/inverter too
[01:13:31] <jmkasunich> 1kW / 170V = 5.88A per servo
[01:13:40] <jmkasunich> at the DC bus
[01:13:54] <jmkasunich> X4 = almost 25A
[01:13:59] <jmkasunich> not gonna use #12
[01:14:29] <jmkasunich> use #10 at least - because of the high crest factor, low conduction angle, the RMS will be higher
[01:14:29] <icee> yah, but I am willing to limit my output
[01:14:36] <icee> i don't picture turning all 4 motors at max torque simultaneously
[01:14:46] <jmkasunich> note that the neutral needs to handle the DC bus current
[01:14:52] <jmkasunich> the two hots handle half
[01:14:59] <icee> yah
[01:15:16] <icee> i've taken 2 axes full power-- 12A-- as my worst case loading
[01:15:22] <jmkasunich> true about all for at max, and also servos almost never maintain full load, it's just pulsts
[01:15:25] <jmkasunich> pulses
[01:15:49] <jmkasunich> seems fair, but don't forget the spindle, that does run continuous
[01:16:01] <jmkasunich> anyway, should be under 20A
[01:16:03] <icee> yah, but it doesn't provide DC bias unless i also use one of my drives for it
[01:16:17] <icee> and may be on its own circuit
[01:17:02] <jmkasunich> easy way to deal with the aux transformer issue: use a 240V primary, from L1 to L2, don't use N
[01:17:32] <jmkasunich> many small xfmrs have dual secondaries so you can connect them for 120 or 240
[01:17:36] <icee> yah, i'm looking for good isolation transformers, if i find one cheap enough i'll go for it
[01:17:48] <jmkasunich> dual primaries I mean
[01:18:05] <icee> 240V primary, 60V secondary would be ideal, because then i'd do full wave rectification
[01:18:13] <icee> and there's many isolation transformers i could set up for that
[01:18:21] <jmkasunich> what are you making with your aux supply, 120VAC for computer and such, or some kind of DC supply?
[01:18:45] <jmkasunich> getting me confused again, what is the 60V for?
[01:19:04] <icee> jmka: 60V RMS full-wave rectified would give me 170V p-t-p
[01:19:16] <jmkasunich> you want 170V DC?
[01:19:29] <icee> it works pretty nicely with my 100VDC motors
[01:19:36] <jmkasunich> p-t-p is a useless number
[01:19:48] <icee> i know, i'll get 10-25V less
[01:19:56] <jmkasunich> 120VAC full wave rectified gives 170VDC
[01:20:06] <jmkasunich> vpp doesn't factor into it at all
[01:20:38] <jmkasunich> 120V AC + 4 diodes = 170VDC
[01:20:56] <jmkasunich> 240V AC center tapped + 2 diodes = 170VDC
[01:21:18] <icee> i always get confused about this.
[01:21:37] <jmkasunich> the pole transformer is 240V AC center tapped, with the tap grounded
[01:21:51] <icee> yah, i know that
[01:22:03] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:22:39] <icee> there's 2 aux supplies
[01:22:52] <jmkasunich> I think I know where there is a drawing of various rectifier ckts on the web, gonna look for it
[01:23:08] <jmkasunich> ok, tell me about the aux loads, how many V DC and how many amps
[01:23:16] <icee> 1 24V, that runs the brake, that is stepped down to 15V for gate drive, and to 5V for the axis microcontrollers
[01:23:30] <icee> about 4A @ 24V
[01:23:39] <jmkasunich> 90% for the brake I bet
[01:24:04] <icee> the brakes take 2.4A; the other things probably don't really take 1.6A
[01:24:08] <icee> but i was very conservative in adding them up
[01:24:13] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:24:40] <icee> and then there's a few hundred mA isolated 5V supply
[01:24:58] <icee> to speak to the computer at ground-referenced, rather than in-chassis-neutral referenced, levels
[01:26:07] <icee> it'll probably just be a simple linear supply
[01:26:43] <jmkasunich> ok, total is about 100 watts or so
[01:27:33] <icee> yah, the first set is neutral referenced, though, and the second set is floating (but probably grounded to safety ground via the parallel port)
[01:27:58] <jmkasunich> you mean the first set is referenced to DC bus negative?
[01:28:02] <icee> yes
[01:28:18] <jmkasunich> not my first choice, but OK
[01:28:23] <icee> why?
[01:28:40] <jmkasunich> don't like direct connections between control power and main power
[01:28:56] <icee> there would be a need for a lot of optoisolators otherwise
[01:29:22] <jmkasunich> you are building H-bridges, right?
[01:29:23] <icee> 24, plus expensive high-common-mode amplifiers or analog optos with feedback or pulse transformer setups to get current feedbacks back
[01:29:34] <icee> i'm using IRF integrated IGBT modules
[01:29:52] <jmkasunich> H bridges, 3 phase bridges?
[01:29:57] <icee> 3 phase
[01:30:06] <jmkasunich> ac servo motors or something?
[01:30:14] <icee> yah, sanyo denki 3 phase ac servo motors
[01:30:17] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:30:24] <icee> the ones surpluscenter had for $40 apiece
[01:30:28] <jmkasunich> so you have 4 bridges, 6 switches in each bridge
[01:30:39] <icee> yah
[01:30:45] <jmkasunich> each bridge has 3 low side and 3 high side switches
[01:30:55] <icee> yup
[01:30:56] <jmkasunich> how are you gonna drive the high side ones?
[01:31:05] <icee> the module takes care of that magic for me
[01:31:11] <icee> i just need to provide it with bootstrap caps
[01:31:11] <skunkworks> Hello - is there an "if" operator in the gcode interpeter? I have been looking for an hour and have come up with nothing. I mean if #8>10 then n100 or something like that.
[01:31:19] <icee> it has 5V logic level inputs
[01:31:30] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: not in standard g-code
[01:31:43] <icee> it also enforces dead time, etc.. it has an IRF IGBT driver integrated
[01:31:49] <icee> along with shunt resistor for measuring current, etc
[01:31:54] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure if the latest lerman additions to the interpreter support that, it's brand new stuff
[01:32:20] <jmkasunich> ok, so you have 6 control signals referenced to negative DC bus
[01:32:31] <icee> yah, 6 per axis
[01:32:31] <jmkasunich> one shunt or three?
[01:32:41] <icee> one shunt back, and one thermistor of feedback
[01:32:49] <jmkasunich> where is the shunt?
[01:33:08] <icee> between the dc neg bus and the low side igbts
[01:33:24] <jmkasunich> so you can't measure individual phase currents, just total low-side current
[01:33:33] <icee> yah
[01:34:24] <icee> so i can control overall current in a control loop..
[01:34:47] <icee> though i depend on the encoders being accurate to commutate properly
[01:34:53] <jmkasunich> what kind of motor control are you doing? trapezoid or something
[01:35:04] <icee> sinusodial commutation
[01:35:30] <jmkasunich> I don't see how you can control sinusoidal currents in three phases with one current sensor
[01:35:40] <icee> well, near sinusodial; 256 sine table entries
[01:36:07] <jmkasunich> my point is you cant control three currents with one sensor
[01:36:22] <icee> jmka: I run a PID control loop on current; the output from that I multiply by the sine table entries
[01:36:22] <skunkworks> thanks jmkasnich - is there one implimented in emc?
[01:36:37] <icee> to get the PWM duty cycles for each output
[01:36:57] <icee> there's some additional details (clipping of the PID to prevent current from running away too badly if the commutation is messed up)
[01:36:58] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: I just told you, not in standard G-code (which is what emc does)
[01:37:06] <icee> the angles i get from the encoder
[01:37:22] <jmkasunich> there is a brand new bleeding edge g-code interp for emc that might do what you want, but I've never used it
[01:38:17] <jmkasunich> icee: I can't visualise what you are talkking about
[01:38:42] <jmkasunich> at any given time, current will be going out one phase and coming back in the other two, or vice versa
[01:38:50] <icee> yah
[01:39:05] <jmkasunich> a single sensor looking at the bus current can't tell you what is going on at the motor
[01:39:08] <icee> here's what i'm doing. I take the current motor position as measured by the encoder
[01:39:28] <icee> I add up to 60 degrees depending on the current speed to figure out where i should try and place the magnetic field
[01:39:32] <jmkasunich> under some condigions, you could have zero bus current while at the same time have enough motor curent to pop the IGBTs
[01:40:37] <icee> yah, only under severe deceleration, though, right?
[01:40:57] <jmkasunich> maybe
[01:40:58] <icee> I clip torque changes for that exact reasons
[01:41:26] <jmkasunich> you are talking about "where I should try and place the magnetic field"
[01:41:31] <jmkasunich> that is good, that is vector control
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> but a magnetic field vector has two degrees of freedom, angle and magnitude
[01:42:06] <jmkasunich> it is simply impossible to control a two degree of freedom system with one feedback
[01:42:11] <icee> then i take the sine of that angle, plus 120, plus 240, to figure out the 'relative strengths' each phase should be driven with-- the relative voltages
[01:42:48] <jmkasunich> it may be possible to actually measure indvidual phase currents using that one sensor, if you make the measurements at the right time during the PWM cycle
[01:43:01] <icee> the angle is open loop
[01:43:07] <icee> the magnitude is closed loop (the feedback)
[01:43:21] <jmkasunich> doesn't work that way
[01:43:32] <icee> why not?
[01:43:54] <icee> I understand I'm controlling bus current rather than total phase current
[01:44:00] <jmkasunich> this is frustrataing, it's the kind of stuff where I need to draw sinewaves, and vector diagrams, and point a the pictures
[01:44:27] <jmkasunich> DC bus current times DC bus voltage = output power.... agreed?
[01:44:29] <icee> and that total phase current can differ from bus current based on speed and acceleration/deceleration
[01:44:36] <icee> yah
[01:44:54] <icee> over the long term, that's true
[01:45:04] <jmkasunich> long term = averaged over one complete PWM cycle
[01:45:40] <icee> sure
[01:45:44] <jmkasunich> assume for the moment constant output speed
[01:45:47] <icee> assuming reasonable definitions of 'output power'
[01:45:57] <jmkasunich> so we can ignore accel/decel
[01:46:03] <jmkasunich> assume constant output torque too
[01:46:21] <jmkasunich> output power from motor = speed times torque
[01:46:33] <jmkasunich> input power to drive = DC volts * DC amps
[01:46:50] <icee> right
[01:47:10] <jmkasunich> in a properly balanced three phase system, power flow is constant throughout the 60Hz (or whatever) power cycle
[01:47:14] <icee> i'm measuring speed and torque
[01:47:25] <icee> well, speed and dc amps, sorry
[01:48:09] <fenn> position and amps.. doesnt that count as two feedbacks?
[01:48:13] <jmkasunich> we understand power out the shaft - spd * torq
[01:48:27] <jmkasunich> we understand power into the drive - vdc * idc
[01:48:40] <icee> torque being an unknown under my system, since i'm not measuring phase currents
[01:48:57] <jmkasunich> but the flow of power from drive to motor consists of 3 voltages and 3 currents
[01:49:32] <jmkasunich> never mind, I'm babbling
[01:49:47] <jmkasunich> basically, you have two choices
[01:50:09] <jmkasunich> open loop, where you produce three phase voltage, and the motor draws whatever current it needs
[01:50:22] <jmkasunich> and closed loop, where you actively regulate the individual phase currents
[01:50:30] <icee> isn't there a middle option?
[01:50:32] <skunkworks> jmkasunich - thanks again - I will do some more looking.
[01:50:42] <icee> produce three phase voltages, scaling ALL THREE based on observed power consumption?
[01:51:32] <jmkasunich> maybe
[01:51:50] <jmkasunich> can't figure out how to put into words
[01:52:24] <icee> I understand that there's a degree of uncertainty i pick up in that on each phase's current
[01:52:41] <jmkasunich> what you describe might work, IF you can control the phase relationship between motor position and output voltage vector
[01:52:51] <jmkasunich> you really want to control the output CURRENT vector
[01:53:15] <icee> based on the acceleration/deceleration of the motor in the short term, imbalances between IGBTs, coil reactances, etc
[01:53:23] <jmkasunich> you are talking about measureing the magnitude only of the current vector
[01:53:36] <jmkasunich> I don't think you can do that with a sensor on the DC bus
[01:54:35] <icee> so you're saying if you're doing voltage control of 3 phases, a DC bus current feedback is of no value?
[01:55:01] <icee> I understand you have no idea how much power is getting pumped from ground to ground by the motor inductance
[01:55:03] <jmkasunich> it can be used for overcurrent protection and such, but not for closed loop current vector control
[01:55:47] <jmkasunich> are your encoders absolute, or do you have hall sensors for commutation?
[01:55:55] <icee> incremental encoders with index
[01:56:01] <icee> i'm planning to ignore the halls
[01:56:12] <jmkasunich> then you don't have angle either
[01:56:20] <icee> why not?
[01:56:34] <jmkasunich> incremental encoder doesn't tell you the angle at power up
[01:56:39] <icee> a startup sequence will gather that
[01:56:58] <jmkasunich> force it to turn until you get an index?
[01:57:07] <icee> yah.
[01:57:37] <jmkasunich> you'll just run open loop until you get the index I assume
[01:57:42] <icee> yah
[01:58:37] <fenn> btw how does the micro tell the computer when it's on an index?
[01:58:46] <fenn> for homing
[01:58:51] <icee> f: the index is just used to adjust the encoder count
[01:59:24] <jmkasunich> fenn: in what context: general, emc, other? emc doesn't have micros telling computers anything
[01:59:37] <icee> jmka: the mid-end commercial drives do something similar, though they use the halls for crude commutation first
[02:00:06] <fenn> jmkasunich: as i understand it the micro tells the computer via parallel port a 32 bit encoder count and 8 bits of "stuff"
[02:00:18] <icee> then when they first pass an index pulse (or in some cases, a hall transition, though that seems ugly) they can more precisely control the angle
[02:00:18] <fenn> er, 24 bit not 32
[02:00:34] <jmkasunich> icee: I believe that you can't do closed loop sine vector unless you directly or indirectly measure at least two phase currents
[02:01:02] <jmkasunich> it may be possible to use the single shunt to do that if you make the measurements at the right point in the PWM cycle, but it is certainly non-trivial
[02:01:12] <icee> j: I know I can't tightly control the phase currents, but I believe I can control total current better than without bus current feedback at all
[02:01:47] <jmkasunich> lets walk thru the PWM cycle
[02:01:56] <jmkasunich> at some point in the cycle, all three phases are high
[02:02:11] <icee> i'm going to filter the output from the shunt
[02:02:19] <icee> to only pass things below the PWM freq
[02:02:44] <jmkasunich> at that point, current can circulate in the motor, thru one IGBT, in one lead, out another, thru a freewheel diode, and back out again
[02:02:51] <jmkasunich> your sensor reads zeros
[02:02:56] <icee> yah, i know.
[02:03:03] <jmkasunich> later, phase A is low, B and C are high
[02:03:07] <jmkasunich> sensor reads A
[02:03:48] <jmkasunich> later, A and B (or maybe A and C) are low, the third is high, sensor reads A+B (which equals -C, since all three sum to zero)
[02:03:58] <jmkasunich> still later, all three are low, sensor reads zero again
[02:04:32] <icee> let's say I turn my drive on, run it awhile, stop the motor, turn the drive off
[02:04:42] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:04:55] <icee> the integral of the shunt voltage should be proportional to the total power consumed in the motors, yes?
[02:05:12] <icee> at the end of that time?
[02:05:23] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:05:31] <jmkasunich> total power, not torque!
[02:05:44] <icee> yah, but power is torque * speed, and i'm measuring speed
[02:06:07] <jmkasunich> you could be drawing 0.1A at 170V from the bus, and delivering 17A at 1V to the motor
[02:06:16] <icee> granted
[02:06:53] <icee> well, not quite that extreme, but yes
[02:07:10] <jmkasunich> I exagerated only a little
[02:08:31] <jmkasunich> assume motor stopped
[02:08:31] <icee> maybe a factor of 3
[02:08:43] <jmkasunich> all three phases high, current circulates freely
[02:08:58] <icee> torque control will be relatively poor at low speed
[02:09:11] <jmkasunich> decaying slowly as resistance dissipates energy
[02:09:20] <jmkasunich> then B and C go low
[02:09:41] <icee> because of greater uncertainties in speed and greater measurement error of bus power
[02:09:45] <jmkasunich> current begins to ramp up, going from + bus, to A, out B and C, to -Bus thru sensor
[02:10:11] <jmkasunich> a short time later A goes low, now all three are low again, and current circulates
[02:10:25] <icee> yah. the ramp rate of coil current is something like 3A per PWM cycle at 15KHz
[02:10:30] <icee> and 170V
[02:10:35] <lerman> skunkworks: the lerman additions to the interpreter DO support IF constructs. See:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?AdditionalGCodeFunctionality
[02:10:45] <jmkasunich> the period when A is hi and B,C are low can be very short, but still keep a lot of current going
[02:11:03] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: straight from the expert
[02:11:22] <icee> yah, the decay rate is very slow
[02:11:30] <Jacky^> night
[02:11:38] <Jacky^> Jacky^ is now known as Jacky^afk
[02:12:02] <lerman> Expert (from the latin) ex meaning former, spurt meaning gushing
[02:12:26] <jmkasunich> so if you actually want to control the current, you need to measure during the period when A is hi and B,C are low
[02:12:35] <jmkasunich> not average over a full PWM cycle
[02:12:46] <jmkasunich> if you average, the actual current will be a LOT higher than you think it is
[02:12:56] <icee> basically, the ramp rates are about 45000 A/s, and the decay rate is something like 500 A/s
[02:13:11] <jmkasunich> so 90:1 ratio
[02:13:24] <icee> i understand the power that flows between the body diodes :(
[02:13:34] <icee> and that it is unmeasured
[02:13:38] <jmkasunich> this is all at zero speed of course, when there is no counter emf to make things even more complicated
[02:14:37] <jmkasunich> you know this is probably a futile conversation
[02:14:41] <skunkworks> very nice - thanks again. I love reading this channel - very informative. I assume you guys are talking about the 3 phase servo card? icee and lawrenceg (among others) are working on.
[02:14:48] <jmkasunich> there is far more to this than can ever be conveyed over IRC
[02:15:05] <jmkasunich> you either already know what you are doing, in which case you don't need me confusing things
[02:15:07] <icee> i understand that we are 'modulating' the coil, using high voltage to cause current to begin flowing, and then it continues to flow through the body diodes after i turn off the phases
[02:15:14] <jmkasunich> or you don't, in which case I won't be much help
[02:15:20] <icee> * icee nods
[02:15:48] <fenn> you can always just measure it and see if you were right
[02:16:07] <jmkasunich> a few thousand times a second?
[02:16:14] <fenn> that's what scopes are for right?
[02:16:30] <jmkasunich> if you are running open loop, sure
[02:16:37] <jmkasunich> closed loop implies feedback
[02:16:39] <icee> I have a DSO
[02:16:48] <jmkasunich> remember that 45000A/sec ramp rate
[02:16:48] <icee> i can data log to test my models
[02:17:09] <icee> the ramp rate doesn't matter. i can measure the current with halls or resistors on each phase and filter
[02:17:17] <icee> and check against my model
[02:17:35] <jmkasunich> halls on each phase... now your talkin!
[02:17:56] <fenn> he's talking about testing phase of development
[02:18:00] <icee> well, for tuneup and developing this it's an option, and one i'll likely employ
[02:18:14] <jmkasunich> halls on each phase (two anyway, the third can be calculated) is the right way to do this IMHO
[02:18:48] <fenn> "three offloads the cpu"
[02:18:52] <fenn> :P
[02:19:01] <icee> fenn: calculating the third isn't hard
[02:19:04] <jmkasunich> the third can be calculated with an opamp and three resistors
[02:19:09] <icee> it's the bigger of the two if they're opposite in sign
[02:19:15] <jmkasunich> not
[02:19:18] <icee> or the sum of the two if they're the same
[02:19:31] <icee> is the total current
[02:19:40] <jmkasunich> it is minus the sum of the two, regardless of sign
[02:19:58] <icee> the total current is what i said
[02:20:14] <jmkasunich> ok, I thought we were talking about the third phase
[02:21:09] <icee> and yah, i know the currents total to 0
[02:21:32] <jmkasunich> for control you care only about Ia, Ib, and Ic
[02:21:39] <jmkasunich> Idc isn't very usefull
[02:21:43] <icee> anyways, it's just a few operations to come up with total magnitude, and a few more to come up with angle
[02:22:17] <icee> that's not Idc, that's Ia+Ib+Ic
[02:22:30] <jmkasunich> huh?
[02:22:40] <jmkasunich> Ia + Ib + Ic = 0
[02:22:49] <icee> er
[02:22:59] <jmkasunich> so if you measure Ia and Ib, you can calc Ic = -(Ia + Ib)
[02:23:03] <jmkasunich> that's all I was saying
[02:23:11] <jmkasunich> Idc is what you get from your shunt
[02:23:15] <icee> yah, sorry, it's not Idc either, though
[02:23:33] <jmkasunich> congverting Idc into usefull readings is non-trivial at best
[02:23:42] <icee> the bigger of the two if opposite in sign, the sum of the two if they're the same though
[02:23:53] <icee> is the magnitude of the current vector
[02:23:55] <icee> in the motor
[02:23:56] <icee> not Idc
[02:24:03] <jmkasunich> nope
[02:24:09] <jmkasunich> draw three sine waves
[02:24:22] <jmkasunich> then do your formula at several points along the cycle
[02:24:36] <jmkasunich> the magnitude is a constant, your expression isn't
[02:25:10] <icee> hmmm
[02:25:18] <jmkasunich> anyway, we've digressed a lot
[02:25:24] <icee> yah, you're right.
[02:25:25] <jmkasunich> I just want to say one thing
[02:25:29] <jmkasunich> well, actually 2
[02:26:17] <jmkasunich> first - unless you want to toast either your computer or yourself, at least make your first unit with either full isolation between control and power (best) or with isolation between power circuits and the line
[02:26:38] <jmkasunich> second: build and test your first unit at 50 volts or less
[02:26:44] <icee> the latter is planned
[02:26:50] <icee> and in the current circuit, the computer is fully isolated
[02:27:07] <icee> the computer talks to a microcontroler over the parallel port, which talks to the other micros over an optoisolated SPI
[02:27:22] <jmkasunich> ok, that is encouraging
[02:27:41] <jmkasunich> so you have a mivro at the negative bus, but totally isolated from the control signals
[02:28:05] <icee> yah. it saves me from optoisolating 24 signals, as i can opto 3 spi + 3 selects instead
[02:28:29] <icee> i know otherwise drive returns currents would try and make their way through the parallel port into the computer's safety ground
[02:28:52] <jmkasunich> even if it doesn't fry stuff, the noise will just drive you nuts
[02:29:12] <icee> yah.. i think with the couple volts of voltage drop across neutral, at very low impedance.. it'd fry stuff ;)
[02:29:32] <jmkasunich> you most likely won't be able to scope your isolated micro for the same reason - noise as soon as you connect the ground clip
[02:30:04] <icee> I have access to a differential probe
[02:30:17] <jmkasunich> good
[02:30:41] <icee> the ground clip on a normal probe sounds like a good way to blow up my scope
[02:31:50] <fenn> * fenn has to catch a plane in the morning.. g'night
[02:32:01] <jmkasunich> night fenn
[02:33:13] <icee> anyways, i know i don't entirely know what i'm doing, but i'm proceeding cautiously, and will through the software development etc.
[02:33:20] <icee> worst case, it will be a voltage controller
[02:33:43] <icee> But I think the information from the current shunt is of nonzero value and I hope to use it to improve its performance above voltage controllers
[02:34:15] <jmkasunich> it is of non-zero value, I'll grant you that
[02:34:26] <jmkasunich> but it will be non-trivial to extract that value
[02:34:52] <jmkasunich> hmm, one thought crosses my mind
[02:35:08] <jmkasunich> there are three output phases, and each can be high or low
[02:35:11] <jmkasunich> that is 8 states
[02:35:38] <icee> or open, during the deadtime
[02:35:45] <jmkasunich> for each state, the shunt reads either zero, or the value of one phase, or the inverse of the value of one phase
[02:36:11] <icee> inverse of hte value of one phase.. (thinking)
[02:36:23] <icee> yah, that's true.
[02:36:32] <icee> the ADC isn't fast enough to do anything like what you're describing though
[02:36:42] <SWPadnos_> but not necessarily in phase, right?
[02:36:46] <jmkasunich> you digital folks, jeez....
[02:36:58] <jmkasunich> 1 to 8 analog demux chip
[02:37:10] <jmkasunich> select inputs driven with the gate sigs
[02:37:25] <jmkasunich> single input driven with the shunt signal
[02:37:39] <SWPadnos_> can't do that - the A/D is a successive approximation type, and takes (16 or 60) us per conversion
[02:37:42] <jmkasunich> caps on the outputs as sample-holds
[02:37:45] <SWPadnos_> no flash samples
[02:37:53] <icee> SWP: there's a sample and hold
[02:38:01] <SWPadnos_> in the dsPIC
[02:38:06] <SWPadnos_> ?
[02:38:15] <icee> * icee checks
[02:38:16] <jmkasunich> when the gate pattern is such that the shunt output = Ia, connect the signal to the Ia cap
[02:38:39] <jmkasunich> when the gates are such that the shunt gives you -Ic, connect it to the -Ic cap
[02:38:40] <SWPadnos_> could be in the dsPIC, I think there isn't in the regular PICs and AVRs
[02:38:51] <jmkasunich> when a cap isn't connected, it holds the previous value
[02:39:07] <jmkasunich> presto, 6 reconstructed current signals
[02:39:16] <icee> swp: the AVRs have htem
[02:39:16] <icee> and yes
[02:39:17] <SWPadnos_> true - it would be pretty close (though the uC pins aren't exactly opens
[02:39:23] <icee> page 391 of the data sheet, there's S/H's
[02:39:29] <jmkasunich> no fscking micro
[02:39:40] <jmkasunich> analog mux chip, from analog devices or something
[02:39:46] <SWPadnos_> oh - OK. I thought the voltage had to be stable during the conversion
[02:39:55] <SWPadnos_> heh - you analog guys
[02:40:04] <jmkasunich> not communicating again
[02:40:26] <jmkasunich> I'm talking about building three (maybe 6) sample and holds
[02:40:30] <jmkasunich> one per phase
[02:40:35] <SWPadnos_> I understand :)
[02:40:40] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:40:44] <jmkasunich> phew
[02:40:47] <SWPadnos_> heh
[02:41:00] <jmkasunich> the output of that will be stable during the conversion...
[02:41:07] <SWPadnos_> it's a question of how fast they drain through the micro
[02:41:19] <SWPadnos_> the pin isn't multi-megohm impedance
[02:41:23] <jmkasunich> they're being refreshed at the PWM rate
[02:41:26] <icee> the impedance is pretty high
[02:41:33] <jmkasunich> pic the right cap, you're good
[02:41:53] <jmkasunich> not gonna be +/- 2%, but better than nothing
[02:42:10] <jmkasunich> charge injection from the analog switches will probably be more of a problem than droop
[02:42:19] <jmkasunich> that and charge time when duty cycle is very low
[02:42:44] <SWPadnos_> I've got to get those datasheets onto this computer
[02:42:47] <jmkasunich> and filtering switching noise off the shunt signal
[02:42:50] <jmkasunich> and...
[02:42:52] <jmkasunich> and..
[02:42:57] <SWPadnos_> heh
[02:43:01] <SWPadnos_> you analog guys :)
[02:43:20] <jmkasunich> all the world is analog
[02:43:43] <icee> or just building a model based on motor speed, commanded duty cycle, and DC bus current
[02:43:44] <jmkasunich> you just have to look fast enough, or small enough
[02:44:03] <icee> if you look close enough, all the world may be digital ;)
[02:44:35] <icee> i mean, we don't know whether at some level time and space are ultimately quantized
[02:44:35] <jmkasunich> true, but very, very few people need to look that close (thank god, that shit makes my head spin)
[02:44:57] <jmkasunich> quatum piss sicks
[02:46:46] <Jymmm> lol @ jmkasunich
[02:47:14] <fenn> part #emc superconducting circuits == superfluidic aether's the way to go
[02:47:19] <fenn> feh
[02:48:53] <icee> one naive thing i could do is keep the 'lowest' phase at any time nailed to DCBUS-, and then bus current + total positive duty cycle for the other 2 phases will be very close to Imotor
[02:49:13] <icee> bus current / total positive duty cycle that is
[02:49:47] <icee> *pondering*
[02:50:09] <icee> yah, that comes very close to working without even any cleanup with speed
[02:50:42] <icee> (there's still uncertainties in accuracy of phase angle, switching times, blah blah blah)
[02:53:25] <icee> maybe i should just build a massive spice model of this
[03:26:43] <mbaulfinger> motd
[03:33:11] <mbaulfinger> motd
[03:39:02] <mbaulfinger> help
[03:39:12] <mbaulfinger> info
[03:39:17] <mbaulfinger> ?
[03:39:37] <SWPadnos_> try using forward slashes in front of those commands (/) :)
[03:40:33] <mbaulfinger> sorry didn't know these were seen by others...
[03:41:16] <SWPadnos_> they aren't if you put a slash in front :)
[04:38:50] <CIA-5> 03paul_c * 10emc2-auto/wiki/ (18 files in 14 dirs): "Auto update wiki from a cron job. Wed Nov 23 05:30:01 GMT 2005 "
[04:55:16] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWP_Away
[11:07:13] <Jacky^afk> Jacky^afk is now known as Jacky^
[11:07:29] <Jacky^> mornin
[11:07:53] <Jacky^> anyone here read the International Herald Tribune ?
[11:08:07] <Jacky^> please see pag. 7 !
[12:29:31] <les_w> morning all
[12:29:49] <Jacky^> hi les
[12:30:09] <les_w> hi jacky
[12:30:23] <les_w> just getting ready to go to the shop
[12:30:29] <les_w> rewiring the cnc
[12:30:36] <Jacky^> cool
[12:31:38] <les_w> just a little...for the new spindle
[12:31:56] <Jacky^> good ..
[12:32:05] <les_w> replacing the spindle power cable with 3 conductor shielded
[12:32:19] <les_w> and a second cable for the cooling fan
[12:32:33] <Jacky^> oh well, did you have interferance issue ?
[12:32:45] <les_w> upping the limit/home switches from 5v to 24
[12:33:01] <Jacky^> good hacking :)
[12:33:03] <skunkworks> Hello - last night someone gave me a link to additional g-code funtionality -
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?AdditionalGCodeFunctionality - Now I am not a linux person. at all. I was looking at source forge and trying to muddle though. I am lost. first is this mod available and how would I go about installing it. Be Gentle ;)
[12:33:06] <les_w> It's just that the Colombo is bigger, and needs bigger wires
[12:33:18] <Jacky^> roger
[12:33:41] <Jacky^> im reading the news..
[12:33:48] <Jacky^> http://www.beppegrillo.it/english.php
[12:34:13] <Jacky^> to get an article published we need to go aoutside of italy :/
[12:34:44] <Jacky^> that what is happening here :(
[12:34:47] <les_w> hi skunkworks. I'm not a linux guy either...but many on here are. I would guess you have to download the new interpreter code and recompile.
[12:36:19] <les_w> Is the economy bad over there jacky?
[12:36:32] <Jacky^> les_w: only debits
[12:36:42] <Jacky^> but its absurd
[12:36:51] <Jacky^> really
[12:37:44] <les_w> Things seem ok here. Ok for me at least. This is the best year ever for me.
[12:38:08] <Jacky^> les_w: good
[12:38:17] <skunkworks> Hi les_w - that is what I figure also. Just lost. It was funning as I was reading the knowledge base artical and the very first fix is a problem with g92 after an abort - I have only been playing with it for a few days and have already run into this issue. Zeroed z axis and x and y had random posisons
[12:38:36] <les_w> I think that is because I started a business.
[12:39:18] <Jacky^> its ok to start a business, if you have money
[12:39:33] <les_w> skunkworks, I did not have a problem with the previous behavior of g92. I do like the addition of subroutines though.
[12:39:36] <Jacky^> isnt ok to start business just with debits
[12:39:42] <les_w> right
[12:39:46] <les_w> it's hard
[12:39:54] <Jacky^> here is happening
[12:39:59] <les_w> firt\st two years...no money.
[12:40:46] <Jacky^> thats normal
[12:41:22] <les_w> Currently skunkworks I am more concerned with the quality of motion in emc. I have a new spindle and cannot fully use it's capabilities.
[12:41:43] <les_w> So I am kind of on the sidelines as far as the other stuff.
[12:41:52] <Jacky^> ma non dire scemit�
[12:41:56] <Jacky^> ops sorry
[12:42:06] <skunkworks> les_w - what kind of issues?
[12:42:09] <les_w> However I am a commercial user so my priorities are very different.
[12:42:09] <Jacky^> wrong window
[12:42:40] <les_w> skunkworks, poor trajectory planning at high speeds.
[12:43:01] <les_w> On a Bridgeport or minimill or something it's fine.
[12:43:11] <les_w> at 600 IPM it's not.
[12:43:17] <skunkworks> Are we talking x/y/z at higher feed rates
[12:43:23] <les_w> yes
[12:43:26] <skunkworks> ah
[12:43:37] <Jacky^> les_w: here all are doing the capitalist with debits, no money around ..
[12:43:54] <Jacky^> just using public money of citizens
[12:44:30] <Jacky^> who want to do the capitalist should use his money
[12:44:44] <les_w> We use foreign notes to finance oil crusades ;(
[12:45:03] <skunkworks> what are you using - servos to go? Motenc? what servos and drivers? Just nosey
[12:45:15] <les_w> skunkworks, what machine are you using? servo or stepper?
[12:45:33] <les_w> full servo STG for me
[12:46:14] <les_w> copley 412 drivers
[12:46:27] <skunkworks> I am using stepper on a larger gantry - max is about 100ipm. We have a large K&T mill we would like to retrofit with servos. This is more of a learning experiance on the gantry just to see how emc works
[12:46:41] <les_w> mine is a gantry
[12:46:47] <les_w> let me get you a link
[12:47:27] <les_w> http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html
[12:48:01] <les_w> that page is a little dated
[12:48:43] <les_w> skunkworks, I am planning to get a larger vmc as well. Might use emc.
[12:49:28] <skunkworks> I was just there a few days ago. - funny. our gantry is about that size 2'X6'X4'
[12:49:46] <les_w> pictures?
[12:51:33] <les_w> The gantry is light metal capable, but I need a third machine for metalworking
[12:51:45] <skunkworks> none yet - this is our first full 3 axis machine - the k&t was 2.5 axis. only picture is of a ball in a cage (not finished) just playing around -
http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html
[12:51:57] <les_w> looking at a hurco with blown/old control
[12:52:04] <skunkworks> oops wrong past
http://www.electronicsam.com/images/woodcube.jpg
[12:52:09] <les_w> looking
[12:52:46] <les_w> neat!
[12:53:01] <les_w> are you a commercial operation?
[12:53:57] <skunkworks> no - not yet - just a very big hobby. Nice having the machines for my own projects. we do side projects but not serious. maybe some day.
[12:54:43] <les_w> i see.
[12:54:48] <les_w> in Lacrosse?
[12:56:28] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/turbo/turbo.JPG boring out an exaust housing to fit a larger turbine wheel for may Twin turbo stealth. that is on the K&T millwakeematic. still with the 60s era descreet componant controller - germanium transisters. scary
[12:56:41] <les_w> fuuny site. Low prices per pixel.
[12:56:49] <skunkworks> north of lacrosse in holmen.
[12:57:39] <les_w> i'm from chicago. Flew little planes a lot near you on the way to oskosh and appleton
[12:57:42] <skunkworks> I am 32 and took some javascript classes recently. that was the final project
[12:58:20] <les_w> twin turbo stealth huh? I am car shopping right now.
[12:58:34] <les_w> I have to drive to chicago a lot.
[13:00:17] <skunkworks> I like the stealth - same as the mitsubishi 3000gt. Lots of power potential 300 from factory on a little 3 liter
[13:01:11] <les_w> well, I am getting old. Time to sell the BMW and get an old man car. 53.
[13:01:18] <skunkworks> like anything though it has issues - being awd it has a weak transfer case/output shaft. people are working on that though.
[13:01:41] <les_w> Yeah I am looking at AWD audis.
[13:01:44] <skunkworks> my coworker is a bmw fan. he has an 86 m5
[13:01:53] <les_w> 325i here.
[13:01:57] <skunkworks> nice
[13:02:15] <les_w> I had an audi before...very comfortable.
[13:02:39] <les_w> drives to chicago in the 325 are not so comfortable
[13:03:05] <les_w> It doe have great handling though
[13:03:19] <les_w> tiring on a long trip.
[13:04:04] <skunkworks> right - my coworker used to race his at the big tracks in california. big in the bmw club
[13:04:26] <les_w> Last time, i rented a (gulp) cadilliac to go up there....and I (double gulp) liked it!
[13:04:37] <skunkworks> ewww
[13:04:49] <les_w> but I am not ready for quite that much an old man car to buy.
[13:05:19] <skunkworks> I sent my dad the link to your site - he really liked your lead screw pitch correctio
[13:05:23] <skunkworks> correction
[13:05:32] <les_w> thanks
[13:05:45] <les_w> couple hundred year old technology
[13:06:00] <skunkworks> simple and sweet
[13:06:06] <les_w> emc can map single screws but it cannot match pairs
[13:06:39] <les_w> important on a gantry.
[13:09:22] <les_w> well, off to the shop. Nice talking skunkworks. BBL
[13:09:34] <les_w> later jacky
[13:27:44] <skunkworks> bye
[15:05:53] <Jymmm> Mornin Folks
[15:29:38] <alex_joni> evening
[15:31:52] <Jymmm> can you annodize mirrored aluminum w/o mucking up the mirroring?
[15:33:03] <alex_joni> not me..
[15:59:29] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[15:59:30] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[16:51:53] <alex_joni> * alex_joni drops a needle
[16:52:10] <Jymmm> * Jymmm turns on the electric magnet
[16:52:41] <alex_joni> * alex_joni drops another needle
[16:53:21] <Jymmm> * Jymmm aims the magnet in alex_joni direction and hits the REVERSE button
[16:53:35] <alex_joni> * alex_joni drops
[16:53:53] <Jymmm> lol
[16:56:43] <alex_joni> not funny
[16:56:59] <alex_joni> Jymmm: tried notpron?
[16:57:08] <Jymmm> never heard of it
[16:58:47] <alex_joni> http://deathball.net/notpron/
[16:58:54] <alex_joni> something to keep you busy
[17:04:13] <alex_joni> later
[18:12:25] <Jacky^> hello Jymmm
[18:14:32] <Jacky^> please guys, post your comments here:
http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2005/11/stand_up_clean_up_the_parliame_1.html#comments
[18:32:02] <jepler_> cradek: "cvs update" and tell me if axis still works for you
[18:32:19] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[18:33:04] <jepler> cradek: I added a progress bar while loading a file, and changed to a different tabset implementation, so beat on those two things particularly.
[18:35:46] <cradek> the whole area left of the preview is now overly wide
[18:36:00] <cradek> there is extra space to the right of the slider and to the left of the labels on the F3 tab
[18:36:56] <cradek> the progress bar is nifty
[18:37:52] <jepler> I'm not sure why the tabset is wider overall.
[18:37:56] <cradek> did you take out the watch cursor?
[18:38:18] <cradek> on a huge file, there is a long pause before the progress bar starts
[18:38:31] <cradek> on a huge file, there is a long pause with no feedback before the progress bar starts
[18:39:22] <jepler> the loading goes in two phases: first, the text widget is fully populated. second, the g-code is interpreted. The progress bar covers the second step only
[18:39:31] <jepler> yes, I think the "watch" cursor got lost along the way, I'll put it back
[18:41:04] <cradek> I think it hung on Reload
[18:41:22] <jepler> uh oh
[18:41:29] <jepler> did you get an error on the terminal?
[18:41:32] <cradek> no
[18:41:54] <cradek> any reason it would be slower? I loaded a 100k line file, then hacked off half of it and hit reload
[18:42:06] <cradek> so I would expect it to be faster than the initial load
[18:42:36] <jepler> is it spinning or idle?
[18:42:41] <cradek> spinning
[18:43:05] <jepler> huh
[18:43:12] <cradek> #0 0x40155b39 in TkBTreeNumLines () from /usr/lib/libtk8.3.so
[18:43:12] <cradek> #1 0x401532f0 in TkBTreeInsertChars () from /usr/lib/libtk8.3.so
[18:43:28] <jepler> that probably means it's busy messing with the text widget
[18:43:39] <cradek> #2 0x4015357d in TkBTreeDeleteChars () from /usr/lib/libtk8.3.so
[18:43:39] <cradek> #3 0x40151042 in Tk_TextCmd () from /usr/lib/libtk8.3.so
[18:43:39] <cradek> #4 0x4014f8fd in Tk_TextCmd () from /usr/lib/libtk8.3.so
[18:43:39] <cradek> #5 0x4019978b in TclInvokeStringCommand () from /usr/lib/libtcl8.3.so
[18:43:39] <cradek> #6 0x401d5517 in TclExpandTokenArray () from /usr/lib/libtcl8.3.so
[18:43:42] <cradek> #7 0x401d5638 in Tcl_EvalObjv () from /usr/lib/libtcl8.3.so
[18:43:55] <cradek> huh, DeleteChars
[18:44:02] <cradek> is it trying to empty the widget??
[18:44:35] <jepler> maybe
[18:45:25] <cradek> I'm going to kill it and try again
[18:46:35] <cradek> reload fails this way even on a 500k file
[18:46:52] <jepler> weird. I can hit "reload" on 3D_Chips 'till the cows come home.
[19:28:15] <Jymmm> jepler "The cow goes 'moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo'" =)
[19:29:58] <Jymmm> It must be alex_joni's bedtime
[19:30:04] <alex_joni> almost
[19:30:10] <Jymmm> heh
[19:30:20] <alex_joni> finished my massage ;)
[19:31:01] <Jymmm> just got back from the lumber store...
[19:31:33] <Jymmm> got some ironwood w/ purrty grain in this piece.
[19:31:50] <alex_joni> yeah.. almost the same thig
[19:31:51] <alex_joni> thing
[19:32:14] <Jymmm> hummm?
[19:34:58] <k4ts> hello
[19:35:04] <alex_joni> hello
[19:37:15] <Jymmm> hola
[20:11:30] <dave-e> hey les...you awake?
[20:11:43] <alex_joni> sshhhh.. he's sleeping
[20:11:59] <dave-e> well let's rattle the cage!
[20:12:17] <Jymmm> les_w WAKE UP YOU LAZY BUM!
[20:14:59] <Jymmm> dave-e hows that?
[20:17:37] <dave-e> how's what?
[20:17:48] <alex_joni> <Jymmm> les_w WAKE UP YOU LAZY BUM!
[20:17:59] <dave-e> it apparently wasn't LOUD enough
[20:17:59] <alex_joni> Jymmm: almost didn't hear that
[20:18:40] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Just call me a a church mouse.
[20:18:54] <alex_joni> bookworm
[20:19:20] <dave-e> munch munch
[20:19:33] <dave-e> brb
[20:55:48] <rayh> ping
[20:55:53] <alex_joni> pong
[20:56:02] <rayh> Hi alex
[20:56:22] <alex_joni> how's it up there?
[20:56:31] <rayh> cold and snowing.
[20:56:41] <alex_joni> huh.. frozen lake?
[20:56:53] <rayh> Yes. Almost all of it.
[20:57:22] <rayh> Seems like that happens within a couple of days of our thanksgiving holiday.
[20:58:21] <alex_joni> oh.. right, almost forgot about thanksgiving
[20:58:51] <rayh> Why should you remember? It's a pretty small part of the world that celebrates.
[20:59:10] <alex_joni> heh.. guess so :)
[20:59:25] <alex_joni> but we got some people up (down?) there we do business with..
[20:59:48] <rayh> Our big holiday now is hunting.
[20:59:53] <alex_joni> but I guess you didn't hear about titan
[20:59:55] <rayh> That shuts everything down.
[21:00:08] <rayh> what happened?
[21:00:14] <alex_joni> They make spraying equipments
[21:00:20] <alex_joni> Titantool Inc. iirc
[21:00:53] <rayh> okay tell me more
[21:01:16] <alex_joni> http://www.titantool.com/
[21:01:35] <alex_joni> they were bought by Wagner a few years ago
[21:01:47] <rayh> I know that name.
[21:01:49] <alex_joni> and Wagner is the company we work for (for spraying equipment)
[21:03:07] <rayh> getting the titan site now.
[21:03:33] <alex_joni> not very dial-up friendly I see
[21:04:09] <rayh> Got the front page. What are they doing to your company?
[21:04:45] <alex_joni> we got spraying nozzles from them
[21:05:03] <alex_joni> as do all the spraying equipment manufacturers ;)
[21:05:23] <dave-e> hi ray
[21:05:29] <alex_joni> adjustable tips .. very nice
[21:05:32] <rayh> Hi Dave.
[21:05:42] <dave-e> just got les on landline
[21:05:52] <alex_joni> hey dave.. you were using a STG iirc?
[21:05:53] <dave-e> he has timed and doesn't have a problem....
[21:05:56] <rayh> He going to test for you.
[21:06:19] <dave-e> his machine is apart right now but he will confirm in a week or so
[21:06:32] <dave-e> yes alex I run with a stg
[21:07:07] <skunkworks> any one know emc 2 install? I followd the install tips here
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Compile_EMC2 but when I go to run emc - it start up and then stops. The error I do see is no dispay name and no $display envorment variable amoung other errors
[21:07:08] <alex_joni> * alex_joni was wondering... ;)
[21:07:24] <alex_joni> skunkworks: you're running as root
[21:07:38] <alex_joni> not the user that owns the X
[21:07:50] <alex_joni> try running as user, and place a sudo in front of the command
[21:08:15] <skunkworks> I thought I did it both ways - right now I am logged under my x user
[21:08:26] <alex_joni> the other possibility is that you have a faulty CVS checkout, try an 'cvs up' in the emc2 dir
[21:08:47] <skunkworks> I actually installed it under root and my x window user
[21:08:51] <skunkworks> ok
[21:09:09] <alex_joni> skunkworks: try installing it for the user the X server belongs to
[21:11:01] <rayh> alex_joni: I see a great need coming to update the Hal_Introduction paper.
[21:11:19] <skunkworks> the only thing I did as the x user wah the cvs -d:pserver........ line and on - should I start over and do it from the begining as the x user?
[21:11:22] <rayh> We need units in there for iocontrol and classicladder
[21:11:22] <alex_joni> rayh: indeed
[21:11:31] <alex_joni> skunkworks: no
[21:11:47] <rayh> and updates to halcmd
[21:11:48] <alex_joni> skunkworks: just login as the user, and sudo scripts/emc.run should work
[21:12:01] <alex_joni> the only thing is that the user won't be able to edit files, or do changes
[21:12:17] <alex_joni> try using : chown user:group -R * inside the emc2 dir
[21:12:32] <alex_joni> replace user:group to fit your needs
[21:12:44] <alex_joni> rayh: waiting for the devel to stabilize a bit, before doing that
[21:13:05] <alex_joni> or else, it would be done twice or more often
[21:13:43] <alex_joni> skunkworks: you're pretty near to rayh :P
[21:13:52] <alex_joni> at least that's what frappr shows..
[21:14:17] <alex_joni> well near is an understatement (over here, in europe there would be 2 countries on the way... *g*)
[21:14:30] <rayh> I think it's about 5 hours drive.
[21:14:43] <rayh> at our permitted speeds.
[21:14:57] <alex_joni> how much is that? (permitted speeds?)
[21:15:31] <rayh> 55 mph for most side roads
[21:15:41] <rayh> 65 or 70 mph on freeways.
[21:15:53] <rayh> darn slow by international or eu standards.
[21:16:24] <alex_joni> 70 x 1.609 = 112 kmh
[21:16:27] <alex_joni> not THAT slow
[21:16:49] <alex_joni> in eu mostly 120 and 130 on highways
[21:16:59] <alex_joni> except germany ;) there's no speed limit there
[21:17:41] <rayh> That 112 is the fastest in the states.
[21:18:08] <skunkworks> I will say again - I am not a linux user. ;) Where is ray?
[21:18:29] <rayh> it was 136 kph where I grew up.
[21:18:33] <rayh> Da UP 'eh?
[21:18:54] <rayh> You're near LaCrosse?
[21:19:03] <skunkworks> thats you - I am bad with names - I talked to you yesterday - or the day before
[21:19:12] <skunkworks> right - near lacrosse in holmen
[21:19:27] <rayh> k
[21:19:32] <skunkworks> That would be a drive ;)
[21:19:43] <rayh> mapquest churns?
[21:19:46] <dave-e> right next door
[21:19:53] <alex_joni> skunkworks: maybe you can afford rayh's hourly fees
[21:19:53] <dave-e> almost
[21:20:04] <rayh> 321.7 miles
[21:20:05] <alex_joni> lol
[21:20:09] <rayh> Says 6 hours.
[21:20:23] <alex_joni> ok.. guys, take care
[21:20:34] <skunkworks> how many beers per hour?
[21:20:34] <rayh> Catch you later Alex.
[21:20:38] <alex_joni> gotta go, early start tomorrow (err.. today lateron)
[21:20:56] <alex_joni> skunkworks: usually 30 miles / gallon :D
[21:21:17] <rayh> skunkworks: Well I'm slowing down a bit in my old age!
[21:21:30] <alex_joni> night guys
[21:22:18] <skunkworks> I think I am going to reinstall the bdi 4.3 - I may have screwed it up when I tried to patch the first time. I typed in the cvs install wrong and kept right on going. I am close though
[21:23:56] <skunkworks> Now I can't start
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Compile_EMC2 from the begining as the x user can I? I would assume if I am updating the kernel I need to be logged in as root
[21:24:48] <rayh> No you can "sudo" root at any time if the installer did sudo setup correctly.
[21:27:22] <skunkworks> That might have screwed me up then. I did everything in root then reinstalled the cvs -d:pserver..... and on in the x windows user account - if that makes sense. Did I mention I am not a linux person ;)
[21:29:50] <skunkworks> alex had mentioned trying chown user:group -R
[21:30:00] <skunkworks> How do I find out what group I am
[21:31:23] <rayh> What user name did you give when you installed?
[21:31:41] <skunkworks> sam
[21:32:25] <rayh> Then the install makes a group names sam as well as a user sam.
[21:32:28] <skunkworks> when I type in chown sam -R is says too few arguments
[21:32:40] <skunkworks> ah
[21:33:30] <rayh> If you are still root, but you want the emc2 install to be owned by sam.
[21:34:18] <skunkworks> Though I reinstalled emc as the user sam
[21:34:23] <skunkworks> emc2
[21:34:33] <rayh> Okay. Then you are all set.
[21:34:55] <skunkworks> nope - emc2 starts to load - then unloads itself
[21:35:19] <rayh> What directory are you in when you try to start it.
[21:35:54] <Jymmm> ( C:\windows\)
[21:36:26] <rayh> In a terminal, you can type pwd <enter> and it will tell you where it is.
[21:36:30] <skunkworks> ^ no making fun
[21:37:09] <skunkworks> hold on - I am going to try a few things and get back - thanks for the pointers
[21:37:18] <rayh> hey Jymmm whatchadoinwiththembackwardsslashes?
[21:37:29] <rayh> k -- going for dinner.
[21:37:40] <rayh> rayh is now known as rayh_away
[21:39:58] <Jymmm> rayh_away: C: Dos, C: Dos run, Run DOS run!
[22:54:18] <jtr> skunkworks: any luck getting emc2 to run?
[22:55:29] <skunkworks> not yet - I just got home and as we speak almost have the bdi installed. I will then do the emc2 thing as the x user from begining to end. I will report back. thanks
[22:57:43] <jtr> ok. I just went through getting emc2 and compiling it yesterday - did it all as the x user, and it does come up and run.
[22:58:26] <skunkworks> I am sure I screwed something up. ;)
[22:58:34] <skunkworks> 2nd times the charm
[22:59:28] <jtr> I started on the wrong wiki page the first time and ./configure errored out
[23:01:34] <jtr> think it assumed I knew a lot more about compiling emc than I did...
[23:05:39] <skunkworks> stupid question - I get to the command console by ctrl-alt-f1 (f1 to f6)?
[23:07:48] <jtr> Yes - and not so stupid - I had to try it out to see.
[23:08:03] <jtr> but I dont' think you need to do that.
[23:08:32] <jtr> you're installing the BDI-4.30, right?
[23:09:40] <jtr> and it's coming up in the KDE uh, windowing environment, I guess?
[23:12:22] <jtr> If so, there's a terminal icon down on the taskbar, next to the calculator. That will open up a command window where you can type in the commands.
[23:12:48] <jtr> it's nice to have the wiki page open next to the terminal window.
[23:14:50] <skunkworks> yes
[23:40:35] <skunkworks> so I was using the cntl-alt-f1 as the console to install and try to run emc2
[23:40:53] <skunkworks> well I installed it again and got the same results - display issue
[23:41:29] <cradek> what do you mean by display issue?
[23:41:59] <skunkworks> well I guess you have to run it through the terminal in the x windows. started right up.
[23:42:14] <cradek> ok, sure
[23:42:29] <skunkworks> I guess I am learning
[23:42:45] <cradek> all X (graphical) programs are like that
[23:43:02] <cradek> they connect to the X server (windowing system) named DISPLAY
[23:43:35] <cradek> so if you have networked machines, you can run the program on one machine and display it on another
[23:44:19] <skunkworks> now I know. when I would try to run it through the cntrl-alt-f1 it would come up with something like - no display global varible
[23:44:27] <skunkworks> that is cool
[23:44:46] <skunkworks> thanks ot jtr for mentioning the terminal window in x windows
[23:45:22] <skunkworks> I would be still banging my head against the wall
[23:48:57] <jtr> you're welcome!
[23:49:46] <jtr> I'm new to IRC - can you fall off the channel without knowing it?
[23:50:29] <jtr> I think I left myself wide open there...
[23:54:16] <cradek> jtr: usually an irc client will tell you when it has lost contact
[23:55:21] <jtr> or miss messages? I've been monitoring, and haven't seen any text between skunkworks reply "yes" to me, and his "so I was using..."
[23:55:47] <jtr> just a couple of users leaving and rejoining.
[23:56:05] <cradek> there was no text between those (20 mins)
[23:56:18] <cradek> just some folks coming and going
[23:58:17] <jtr> Ok, good - just looked like it was starting up in the middle of a conversation - not that I don't do that. ;)
