#emc | Logs for 2005-11-18

[00:04:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[00:04:53] <alex_joni> night guys
[00:24:50] <fenn> jymmm that transformer doc is good info
[01:13:04] <Jymmm> fenn: Yeah, they didn't have a downloadable version available, so they faxed it to me, and I turned it into a PDF for them.
[02:35:00] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[03:45:48] <cradek> http://www.theregister.com/2005/11/15/vehicle_movement_database/
[03:46:01] <cradek> it's interesting to see the UK go to hell faster than the US
[03:46:20] <cradek> I'm really surprised, usually we're way ahead of them in the going-to-hell department.
[03:46:35] <djb_rh> we usually try harder
[03:46:40] <cradek> sorry, so OT
[03:46:43] <djb_rh> heh
[03:47:17] <djb_rh> so, what do I need to get one of these working with EMC? http://gallery.donniebarnes.com/cnc-mill
[03:47:41] <djb_rh> I've got the original "PC" that is supposed to drive it, but I'm doubting I want to get 1987 technology working again
[03:48:05] <cradek> some plane tickets and beer?
[03:48:20] <djb_rh> don't throw that out unless you're serious. :)
[03:48:28] <cradek> does it read paper tape?
[03:48:36] <djb_rh> no
[03:48:48] <djb_rh> the PC has two 8" floppies and it also has some sort of reel to reel tape drive
[03:48:51] <djb_rh> I have no tapes for it
[03:48:55] <cradek> cool
[03:48:56] <djb_rh> though there are some floppies
[03:48:59] <cradek> what's the PC?
[03:49:19] <djb_rh> it's got a Bridgeport tag on it, and it predates anything I've personally dealt with (I'm only 32), so I don't know
[03:49:25] <djb_rh> I think it's something standard that's rebadged
[03:49:31] <cradek> heh, 31 here
[03:49:48] <djb_rh> I'm betting it's something 8080 based or something
[03:49:50] <cradek> but it's an IBM type thing with ISA bus?
[03:49:54] <djb_rh> no no
[03:49:57] <djb_rh> before that
[03:50:03] <djb_rh> I'm pretty sure
[03:50:18] <djb_rh> hmm, that said it does have a mouse with some sort of digitizing pad
[03:50:21] <djb_rh> looks early early
[03:50:30] <djb_rh> the monitor is definitely monochrome
[03:50:33] <cradek> could be anything
[03:50:41] <djb_rh> yeah, and I don't much care
[03:50:45] <cradek> do you have a photo of it? I'm interested in what it might have been
[03:50:46] <djb_rh> I want something modern driving it
[03:50:56] <djb_rh> no, but I could get one tomorrow
[03:50:59] <djb_rh> still have that crap
[03:51:03] <djb_rh> it's dirty dirty
[03:51:04] <cradek> I would too, but I also collect vintage computers, to my dismay
[03:51:12] <djb_rh> was sitting gathering dust for several years in a machine shop
[03:51:33] <cradek> do you know anything about the servos/steppers, or the amps that drive them?
[03:51:37] <djb_rh> well, I'll buy the plane tickets and some beer and you can *have* the computer bits if you come update my mill to EMC control. :)
[03:51:48] <djb_rh> they're 30 in/lb DC servos
[03:51:53] <cradek> I don't know if I'm the right guy to do that!
[03:51:56] <djb_rh> max voltage of 146
[03:52:03] <djb_rh> that's all I remember
[03:52:13] <djb_rh> the stupid tags on the motors are hard to get to on each of the three
[03:52:16] <cradek> maybe you can drive those with the gecko step/dir drives
[03:52:19] <djb_rh> (just the rotation and such)
[03:52:32] <cradek> I'm pretty clueless about servo machines
[03:52:42] <djb_rh> I'm pretty clueless about all of this stuff
[03:52:45] <cradek> it looks like a neat machine...
[03:52:46] <djb_rh> it sort of fell into my lap
[03:52:53] <djb_rh> and I recently took up the "hobby"
[03:52:59] <icee> hey djb
[03:53:00] <djb_rh> I've got a mini-mill and mini-lathe
[03:53:02] <djb_rh> hey icee
[03:53:07] <icee> do you know if they're brushed or brushless servos?
[03:53:12] <icee> and how many amps?
[03:53:15] <djb_rh> dunno
[03:53:17] <cradek> he said DC
[03:53:18] <djb_rh> will find out tomorrow
[03:53:31] <djb_rh> cradek: could still be brushed or brushless
[03:53:35] <icee> cradek: yah, but there are 'dc brushless' servos
[03:53:40] <cradek> oh really
[03:53:42] <cradek> shows what I know
[03:53:44] <icee> which imo is a misnomer
[03:53:57] <djb_rh> icee: they're physically bigger motors than those I bought from the surplus place, I know that
[03:54:03] <djb_rh> I realize that doesn't mean much
[03:54:22] <icee> yah, 30 in/lb is an impressive amount of torque
[03:54:25] <djb_rh> the encoders are definitely more of an "add-on" to them, too
[03:54:28] <icee> in-lb, rather
[03:54:33] <cradek> stuff like this never falls in my lap... I'm guessing you're in the northeast somewhere
[03:54:34] <djb_rh> err, yeah
[03:54:35] <djb_rh> in-lb
[03:54:36] <djb_rh> my bad
[03:54:42] <djb_rh> cradek: north carolina
[03:54:50] <djb_rh> well, I did pay for it
[03:54:54] <djb_rh> I think it was $1200
[03:55:00] <djb_rh> which seems to be about the going rate, really
[03:55:04] <cradek> huh
[03:55:05] <djb_rh> you can find better deals sometimes
[03:55:09] <icee> djb: well, the next step is for you to figure out how many wires, what kinds of encoders, and to ohmmeter the coils on the motors
[03:55:21] <djb_rh> ohmmeter?
[03:55:21] <icee> and if you have any way to, to see if they turn freely
[03:55:22] <djb_rh> what's that?
[03:55:27] <djb_rh> :)
[03:55:28] <icee> djb: you know, measure their resistance
[03:55:28] <djb_rh> kidding
[03:55:31] <djb_rh> kidding
[03:55:33] <icee> ;P
[03:55:36] <icee> i was wondering ;)
[03:55:41] <djb_rh> lol
[03:55:47] <djb_rh> I'm guessing they'll turn freely
[03:55:55] <cradek> it looks like there's no rust or anything bad like that
[03:56:00] <djb_rh> it's been stored well, as far as I can tell
[03:56:09] <cradek> yeah, that's great
[03:56:18] <djb_rh> and it did supposedly work when last hooked up
[03:56:56] <djb_rh> looks like it was well taken care of as far as the "usual" abuse...all the slides have been protected from chips and the table hasn't been hit with cutters and such
[03:57:29] <djb_rh> I'm sort of wishing I had found one with manual controls as well as motors, but these things aren't sitting on every street corner...
[03:57:40] <cradek> yeah, cranks are nice sometimes
[03:57:52] <djb_rh> anyway, I'll gather more data on it tomorrow and post it
[03:57:58] <cradek> but once you get it going, you wouldn't use them anyway
[03:58:01] <djb_rh> and yeah, cradek, I'll get pics of the PC for you
[03:58:10] <cradek> slick
[03:58:18] <cradek> you've got me really curious
[03:58:22] <djb_rh> heh
[03:58:31] <djb_rh> If I'm feeling froggy I may plug it in
[03:58:55] <cradek> does it all run on single phase?
[03:59:18] <djb_rh> no
[03:59:25] <djb_rh> the spindle is three phase
[03:59:33] <djb_rh> I've already got a phase converter
[03:59:35] <djb_rh> (rotary)
[03:59:44] <djb_rh> need to get the wiring done for it still, though
[03:59:55] <cradek> is that just a motor and generator back to back?
[04:00:07] <icee> cradek: not really, it's a three phase motor with screwy wiring
[04:00:12] <djb_rh> A friend used to have his manual Bridgeport of about this size in my shop, though I never saw it run.
[04:00:30] <cradek> icee: aha
[04:00:39] <cradek> icee: same idea, but simpler
[04:00:42] <djb_rh> icee: so what the hell is a "VFD"? I sorta understand the rotary converter, but have no idea what a VFD is
[04:00:44] <icee> cradek: it autogenerates the third phase power
[04:00:51] <icee> djb: variable frequency drive
[04:01:02] <icee> it's three phase, but at an arbitrary number of Hz to run things at different speeds
[04:01:14] <icee> well, in most cases it's three phase.
[04:01:26] <cradek> VFD stands for "expensive to drive"
[04:01:29] <djb_rh> isn't a VFD a replacement for a rotary phase converter?
[04:01:34] <djb_rh> or am I confused?
[04:01:43] <icee> an inverter of some for is a replacement for one
[04:01:47] <icee> of some kind
[04:01:55] <icee> a VFD would be one special, expensive case
[04:01:59] <djb_rh> I've been skimming rec.crafts.metalworking
[04:02:08] <djb_rh> so I've heard of them
[04:02:24] <cradek> well I came down here to get emc2 running my mill
[04:02:34] <icee> the motor driver-amplifier we're building is essentially a very special case of VFD
[04:02:42] <cradek> but I'm finding myself not so brave now that I realize that I like my mill just the way it is
[04:02:43] <djb_rh> they are apparently more expensive, but work better than the rotary converter
[04:02:46] <djb_rh> for some reason
[04:03:08] <icee> djb: well, no moving parts is nice, and if you oversize them enough they'll spin the motor up faster
[04:03:09] <cradek> djb_rh: I think they generate the necessary signals using a solid state scheme without moving parts
[04:03:21] <djb_rh> right
[04:03:23] <djb_rh> that's what I thought
[04:03:28] <icee> djb: how big is the spindle again in VA?
[04:03:36] <djb_rh> but supposedly they also help in the "variable speed" department
[04:03:38] <icee> or actually, mostly, in amps
[04:03:54] <icee> djb: yes, a VFD will drive it at an arbitrary number of Hz to get an arbitrary motor speed
[04:04:17] <icee> every complete cycle of three phases will spin you spindle a given amount-- usually one full or half a revolution
[04:04:25] <icee> so 60Hz power == 3600RPM, for instance
[04:04:57] <djb_rh> icee: at 220V it's 6.0A
[04:05:07] <icee> that's all?
[04:05:14] <icee> technically our driver board/amplifiers could drive that too
[04:05:19] <icee> though you'd need a 340V DC bus
[04:05:28] <cradek> woo
[04:05:39] <djb_rh> you can go to 440V with it, apparently
[04:05:58] <icee> djb: there's no wiring scheme for 110/120 I take it, right?
[04:06:03] <djb_rh> no
[04:06:12] <icee> because 12A/110V would be much less exotic
[04:06:19] <djb_rh> 220/230/440/460
[04:07:00] <icee> djb: driving a spindle like that is just like driving these AC servo motors, except open loop on position/speed
[04:07:09] <icee> e.g. you just cycle the power at the desired speed
[04:07:12] <djb_rh> ah
[04:07:38] <djb_rh> you just want me to rewire the whole gd thing, don't you? :)
[04:07:41] <icee> the biggest IRF drive module is 20A; so there'd be a >50% safety factor
[04:07:59] <djb_rh> wow
[04:08:07] <icee> well, I'm just pointing our technically the stuff we're building could replace the rotary phase converter
[04:08:11] <icee> and give you variable speed
[04:08:14] <djb_rh> what would you do to protect it from a jammed cutter, though?
[04:08:28] <djb_rh> or is that possible on one of these?
[04:08:29] <icee> the current feedback loop would cut motor power
[04:08:45] <djb_rh> again, I'm not a machinist, nor have I played one on TV
[04:09:02] <icee> djb: oh, sure it's possible. along with pieces of the tool becoming a fragmentation grenade
[04:09:27] <djb_rh> might not tomorrow, but by Friday I should have time to dig into it a bit, including maybe removing one of the servos
[04:09:41] <djb_rh> how do I find out what kind of encoders it has?
[04:10:04] <icee> well, hopefully you find data plates. barring that, you look at the wiring and measure voltages with what's there currently
[04:10:17] <icee> btw, if anything was broken that took the machine out of service, one of the most likely thing is encoders
[04:10:28] <icee> man, my english is so broken today, i don't know what's wrong with me
[04:10:37] <djb_rh> you still sick?
[04:10:39] <djb_rh> taking medication?
[04:10:40] <djb_rh> :)
[04:10:43] <icee> ;) just about over it
[04:10:49] <djb_rh> I wish I was
[04:10:51] <icee> but yah, i have some dayquil in me
[04:10:59] <djb_rh> I'd blame you for giving me something, but you're a safe 3000 miles away
[04:11:20] <icee> ;) well, i hope you get over it similarly quickly
[04:12:39] <cradek> for a cold I go for oatmeal with irish cream for breakfast
[04:12:45] <cradek> mmm
[04:12:46] <djb_rh> yuck
[04:12:59] <icee> cradek: i used to just abuse codeine while sick
[04:13:08] <cradek> the real kind of oatmeal - steel cut and cooked slowly
[04:13:19] <icee> whenever i'd go to the doctor, they'd proscribe it for my cough.. and it wouldn't suppress my cough reflex
[04:13:22] <cradek> instant oatmeal sucks
[04:13:30] <icee> but it would make me not care that i was coughing
[04:13:37] <icee> and at the recommended dose, generally sleep for a day
[04:13:51] <cradek> I didn't know narcotics did anything for cough
[04:14:59] <djb_rh> sleeping through sickness is good
[07:15:49] <CIA-5> 03paul_c * 10emc2-auto/wiki/ (23 files in 12 dirs): "Auto update wiki from a cron job. Thu Nov 17 05:30:01 GMT 2005 "
[22:19:52] <Jacky^> back
[22:20:23] <Jacky^> so, i think its a nice a wm that resize the windows and adjust all
[22:20:35] <Jacky^> why do it with the mouse ?
[22:21:36] <Jacky^> just save time
[22:21:44] <Jacky^> a lot of time..
[22:27:28] <Jacky^> the only 'gray' side if you use a cad
[22:27:47] <Jacky^> yes, for a cad its not the top ..
[22:35:59] <rayh_emc2> lerman: The loop stuff is great! I love it. Don't know how to use it but...
[22:38:39] <lerman> Hey, if you think the loop stuff is great, try the subroutine stuff. I don't know if machinist types will like it, but us programmer types really needed this.
[22:42:22] <rayh_emc2> I'm running it now with four squares milled from the same sub
[22:42:47] <rayh_emc2> Took me a bit to figure out how the arg's worked with the call.
[22:43:10] <rayh_emc2> being neither machinist or programmer I'm out on a limb here.
[22:45:28] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:46:55] <rayh_emc2> Got it. That didn't take much teeth clenching at all.
[22:51:14] <rayh_emc2> To repeat a relatively long program like cds,ngc with offsets it is easier to loop the original and increment g54, g55 and such.
[22:51:41] <rayh_emc2> For new code, the subroutine is probably much more flexible.
[22:52:24] <anonimasu> I wish cam proggies would take advantage of it
[22:53:16] <jepler> rayh_emc2: don't worry, after learning argument passing in emc you won't be any the wiser about argument passing in any other language
[22:56:06] <rayh_emc2> Good. I don't think I've gotten past an argument yet.
[22:56:48] <rayh_emc2> Darn CP1 is broken in 4.20
[23:00:57] <rayh_emc2> wrong again. rayh_xxx is what's broke.
[23:05:26] <anonimasu> les_w: wb
[23:25:53] <les_w> woops phone
[23:26:09] <les_w> well got the acid anyway...didn't set up the line though
[23:27:18] <anonimasu> nice
[23:31:55] <les_w> ended up talking on the phone a lot so didn't set up the tanks
[23:34:43] <anonimasu> :/
[23:46:30] <SWPadnos> so - what is the debian package for X.Org called? (on BDI)
[23:46:39] <SWPadnos> I can't find any X server other than XFree86
[23:47:17] <SWPadnos> oh right - Debian doesn't like XOrg due to license problems... :/