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[00:19:50] <Jacky^> anyone here has tried hiwin rails ?
[00:20:27] <Yuga> Jacky^... les is a fan
[00:20:40] <Yuga> think that's what he uses on his machine
[00:20:41] <Jacky^> Yuga: I know :)
[00:21:00] <Jacky^> im going to buy abba
[00:21:16] <Jacky^> but hiwin should be nice too
[00:21:30] <Jacky^> as price ..
[00:21:48] <Yuga> well the hiwin stuff was realy cheap
[00:21:51] <Yuga> which was nice
[00:22:21] <Jacky^> yeah
[00:22:44] <Yuga> all the rest of the stuff is REALY expencive
[00:22:50] <Yuga> les... u around?
[00:22:50] <les> I have used the HIWIN stuff on a lot of things just because they were down the street in chicago
[00:23:10] <Yuga> oh well.. guess that means u are around :)
[00:23:14] <les> ABBA might be very good too...just have not tried them
[00:23:24] <les> heh yeah
[00:23:30] <Yuga> les... u heard any of those servo subs? ( i know it's off the topic)
[00:23:40] <les> yeah.
[00:23:54] <Yuga> what u think of them?
[00:24:15] <les> strong bass. Some noise from the brushes in the dc servos. I have not heard them lately though.
[00:24:39] <Jacky^> Yuga: have you listen it ?
[00:24:42] <Yuga> wish they would get back to me with the pricing
[00:24:55] <Yuga> Jacky^.. i live in south africa.. we just got adsl... what u think?
[00:25:02] <Yuga> :>
[00:25:11] <les> I would have removed the brushes, soldered wires, and used them as torque motors
[00:25:15] <Jacky^> i meant to listn the sub working ..
[00:25:34] <les> YUGA...make yor own!!
[00:25:53] <Yuga> les... i was thinking of it... but i wouldnt realy know where to start
[00:26:02] <Yuga> and that site doesnt realy give u that much detail
[00:26:11] <Jacky^> les: the big prob seem to be the driver..
[00:26:18] <Jacky^> which driver ?
[00:26:29] <les> I have sometimes watched (in horror) my 500 kg gantry going back and forth at 20 hz
[00:26:40] <Yuga> lol
[00:26:45] <les> any low inertia servo
[00:26:58] <les> with the right BL product
[00:27:06] <Yuga> bl product?
[00:27:42] <Yuga> another problem is where in the world do i find a speaker with a xmax of over a inch?
[00:28:01] <les> cross product of field intensity B and conductor lenght L
[00:28:03] <Jacky^> mmhh ..
[00:28:06] <les> brb phone
[00:28:14] <Jacky^> Yuga: electrovoice
[00:28:25] <Jacky^> but isnt expensive ?
[00:28:39] <Yuga> Jacky^.. need them with out voice coils and magnets
[00:28:42] <les> trick:
[00:28:51] <Yuga> not going to spend that amount of cash and strip them
[00:29:21] <les> use a foam plunger mechanism with no surround The gap is the port.
[00:29:57] <Yuga> fome plunger down a tube?
[00:30:09] <les> any Xmax you want.
[00:30:18] <les> yeah a short tube
[00:30:26] <Yuga> that's what i thought
[00:30:36] <les> giving all my secrets away here...
[00:30:39] <Yuga> but i thought there would be some reason that they dont do that
[00:30:55] <Yuga> friction eating away the foam for one
[00:31:14] <les> no no reason
[00:31:29] <les> it's just in air
[00:32:07] <Yuga> another thing is how would u control the servo?
[00:32:33] <Yuga> just connect it to a amp? cause i remember u saying something about connecting a servo straight to a amp?
[00:33:50] <les> sure
[00:34:19] <Yuga> so that's all i would need? servo/foam/amp/box?
[00:34:25] <les> yup
[00:34:40] <Yuga> and how would i go about designing a box?
[00:34:55] <les> just a sec phone
[00:35:01] <Yuga> k
[00:35:05] <Yuga> sit's and waits
[00:35:13] <Jacky^> :)
[00:35:26] <Yuga> this is very interesting
[00:35:34] <Jacky^> yeah
[00:35:41] <Yuga> les is like a ledgend
[00:35:47] <Jacky^> haha
[00:35:50] <Yuga> think u ppl should let him hang around more :)
[00:37:49] <les> heh
[00:37:57] <les> 98 yo grandma.
[00:38:09] <Yuga> ?
[00:38:28] <les> called on the phone. she is just down the street.
[00:38:45] <Yuga> aaahhh
[00:39:06] <les> anyway a servo motor sub is no different from any other
[00:39:21] <les> same Theile Small parameters are used
[00:39:22] <Yuga> yes... but i wouldnt know any of the spec's
[00:39:32] <les> you measure them!
[00:39:39] <les> and calculate them
[00:40:01] <les> depends on servo polar moment of inertia
[00:40:02] <Yuga> les... not every one designed speakers for a living
[00:40:08] <Yuga> some of us just buy them
[00:40:15] <Yuga> <---- for example :)
[00:40:24] <les> and what kind of lever you are using to transfer motion to a cone
[00:41:14] <les> I have a surroundless cone drawn up in autocad somewhere
[00:41:28] <les> box has a cone and a port right?
[00:41:33] <Yuga> dont u wanna please look for them?
[00:41:35] <Yuga> http://wanderkolonie.org/servo2.htm <--- i dont know if i like this method of moving the cone? what u think?
[00:41:52] <les> use no surround... with a big gap. The gap is the port!!
[00:42:00] <les> looking
[00:42:22] <Yuga> ok.. so the piece of foam will then move on a shaft i am guessing?
[00:42:36] <Yuga> like a cerwin vega stroker?
[00:43:19] <les> kinda
[00:43:28] <Yuga> if the brushes make a noise... y not use brushless servo's? <--- just another arb question
[00:43:36] <les> good idea!
[00:43:54] <anonimasu> brushless drives are more $
[00:43:54] <dmess> high all ...
[00:43:57] <anonimasu> and so are the motors..
[00:43:57] <Yuga> ok.. now what was a good idea?
[00:44:03] <les> yes
[00:44:04] <Yuga> the brushless servo idea
[00:44:11] <les> not using brushes
[00:44:24] <Yuga> anonimasu... as far as i knew... we werent using a driver board
[00:44:27] <dmess> linear drives are MORE $$$
[00:44:42] <les> remember what I said...remove the brushes and make it a torque motor
[00:44:59] <Yuga> didnt understand what u meant by torque motor
[00:45:10] <anonimasu> ah..
[00:45:11] <anonimasu> cool
[00:45:21] <les> a motor that only travels a small part of a revolotion
[00:45:33] <Yuga> aaahhh
[00:45:35] <les> revolution
[00:45:35] <Yuga> can a brushless motor be connected straight to the amp?
[00:45:47] <dmess> like a stepper???
[00:45:56] <les> only if you use one set of poles
[00:46:11] <dmess> are we talkin' hybrid ??
[00:46:16] <les> btw I have run cnc machines from crown audio amps
[00:46:37] <Yuga> talking about crown... i just got my new crown amp's today...
[00:46:38] <anonimasu> hm, torque motors are neat
[00:46:40] <Yuga> i'm soooo happy :)
[00:46:51] <les> not a reluctance/pm hybrid.
[00:47:13] <les> a servo
[00:47:13] <dmess> ok thats where i was seein.. ; )
[00:47:31] <Yuga> les... any luck with that diagram?
[00:47:43] <les> we are talking about big audio speakers that use servo motors to move cones!
[00:48:13] <les> I am snowed with work
[00:48:18] <Yuga> les... can make that 30" speaker i always wanted :)
[00:48:26] <les> sure.
[00:48:33] <anonimasu> cute
[00:48:50] <Yuga> i am talking about the diagram for the speaker without a surround
[00:48:59] <dmess> i had a set a cerwin vega stage speakers...
[00:49:36] <les> oh yeah. Do I want to public disclose that? it's in my inventions notebook! haha
[00:49:58] <Yuga> les... perty please
[00:50:16] <Yuga> i need to make a super duper servo sub now
[00:50:23] <les> let me think about it
[00:50:24] <dmess> patents are worthless anyway...
[00:50:35] <Yuga> my 18" speakers dont make nearly enough bass
[00:50:37] <les> I need to make a super duper amount of money.
[00:50:39] <les> heh
[00:50:59] <anonimasu> sheesh
[00:50:59] <anonimasu> :D
[00:51:04] <dmess> wrong business les.... ; )
[00:51:08] <les> what 4 18's to wimpy for you?
[00:51:16] <Yuga> yep
[00:51:24] <Yuga> well i play for crouds 1000+
[00:51:30] <les> oh
[00:51:33] <Yuga> 4 X 18" arent realy that much
[00:51:49] <Yuga> and i just cant affor the good... big stuff
[00:51:57] <dmess> you need some umph in your step then
[00:52:48] <les> let's see...about 102 dba 1 meter....2000 rms... low 130's max
[00:53:08] <les> for 4 18's
[00:53:39] <Yuga> now put 1000+ ppl in front of that... and it's soft at the back :)
[00:53:48] <les> ok.
[00:54:01] <les> well heh bass horns...
[00:54:11] <les> too big.
[00:54:18] <Yuga> les.. u recomended i stay away from them
[00:54:28] <les> yeah. too big.
[00:54:28] <Yuga> made a plain old ported box
[00:55:17] <les> well, efficiency goes up 3 db for every doubling of drivers
[00:55:32] <Yuga> yep
[00:55:49] <les> and power handling too.
[00:55:50] <Yuga> but when u got 4... u reald arent doubling that much
[00:56:04] <Yuga> already i am giving each speaker 1kwatt
[00:56:10] <Yuga> dont think they can handle much more :)
[00:56:23] <les> that is a lot.
[00:56:49] <Yuga> it's alot.. but the speakers still actualy sound good
[00:56:52] <les> cheapest way: a truckload of 18's and mdf
[00:56:55] <Yuga> think they can still take alittle more
[00:57:21] <Yuga> les... yes... but the coolest way... servo subs :)
[00:57:22] <les> most expensive way: I build you a giant servo driver...that will kill things.
[00:57:57] <Yuga> when u say most expencive i get scared
[00:57:57] <les> BTW what is tom danley asking for those things these days?
[00:58:02] <les> get a quote?
[00:58:18] <Yuga> les.. i dont have a clue.. he doesnt wanna email me a quote.. so i am guessing it's alot
[00:58:46] <les> I would guess $5000 a pop or so
[00:58:56] <Yuga> probibly...
[00:59:04] <Yuga> so the idea is to build one for less :)
[00:59:21] <les> fair quality 18's can be had for $100...
[00:59:41] <Yuga> well the sub's i use are about 300$ each
[00:59:57] <Yuga> and then the wood for the box is another 100$
[01:00:04] <les> yes good ones...good drivers
[01:00:14] <Yuga> les... i only buy good ones :)
[01:00:20] <Yuga> well i try atleast
[01:00:30] <les> but you can fix up a $100 18 to sound ok
[01:00:36] <les> not great but ok
[01:00:56] <Yuga> les.. that's my problem.. i need it to sound GREAT... not OK
[01:00:59] <les> disco dancers are drunk anyway right?
[01:01:17] <Yuga> les.. they might be... but i would know the difference
[01:01:27] <les> well...what are you using?
[01:01:36] <les> for drivers?
[01:01:46] <Yuga> currently RCF l18p300's
[01:02:46] <les> oh yeah
[01:02:49] <les> ok.
[01:03:03] <Yuga> http://www.rcf.it/VediMacro.phtml?IDMacro=1618&m1=1&m2=0&m3=1_0_3 <--- spec's
[01:03:12] <les> I use mccauleys, altecs, and NHT
[01:03:19] <les> also expensive.
[01:03:45] <Yuga> i just heard one.. and was impressed...
[01:04:16] <Yuga> but now i need to upgrade
[01:04:32] <Yuga> and the only way to get more sound... less space is a servo drive
[01:04:35] <les> yeah dual spider...my mccauleys have that
[01:04:42] <les> and shorting rings
[01:05:46] <Yuga> one thing i hate about the RCF's is there binding post's
[01:06:22] <les> Well some of that is hype...he is mass loading the thing (danley)
[01:06:28] <Yuga> another thing i like about the servo drives is the realy realy realy small amp's they need :)
[01:07:48] <les> I think I can fiddle with cheap eminences and make them sound good if I tried
[01:08:26] <Yuga> how about u fiddle with expencive rcf's...and then share the secret? :>
[01:09:47] <les> LF speakers are a mature science. No one really "designs" them any more. You just buy manufacturer a's cone, b's spiders, c's coil, d's magnet...
[01:10:16] <les> most of the stuff is from china...in all brands
[01:11:27] <les> well...sounds like you should really mess with servo speakers
[01:11:37] <les> the idea has been around forever
[01:12:13] <Yuga> well i have heard about them before. but only realy started thinking about them after u told me u can hook a server straight to a amp
[01:13:17] <Yuga> sooooo.. u thought about sharing your knowlage of the surroundless speaker
[01:14:39] <les> heh I think it is one of my better ideas. At least I hope. It is a 10 year old idea. I think I want to keep it!
[01:14:42] <anonimasu> hm
[01:14:45] <anonimasu> I ended up working late today
[01:14:47] <anonimasu> :/
[01:15:05] <Yuga> :<
[01:15:08] <les> you often work very late!
[01:16:02] <anonimasu> :/
[01:16:13] <anonimasu> ended up in a mailconvo with australia..
[01:16:24] <les> but...yuga...if you want to buy a bunch of recone kits....some low inertia servos... and some belts.. that you can do
[01:16:26] <anonimasu> now I got referred to uk so I need to sleep..
[01:16:35] <les> run four cones from one servo
[01:16:56] <Yuga> how would u go about running 4 cones?
[01:17:14] <les> same way danly does.
[01:17:21] <les> pushrods or belts
[01:17:34] <Yuga> how does danly do it?
[01:18:11] <les> belts now...earlier he used pushrods. He even tried timing belts, but that was bogus.
[01:18:36] <Yuga> i am guessing u would recomend the belt way?
[01:18:53] <les> belts are linear
[01:18:59] <les> pushrods are not
[01:19:20] <Yuga> ?
[01:20:00] <Yuga> which u recomend?
[01:20:06] <les> cone displacement/motor angular displacement is not constant
[01:20:56] <les> well...an old engineering saying..."don't push on ropes"
[01:21:10] <anonimasu> hehe
[01:21:27] <Yuga> ok... so that means u like pushrods
[01:21:27] <les> I would first look at polar moment of inertia of the servo
[01:22:00] <les> convert it to TS network values
[01:22:07] <les> and see what Ineeded
[01:22:12] <Yuga> <les> I would first look at polar moment of inertia of the servo <--- re explain that for some one who is realy stupid now, and isnt that good in english?
[01:22:36] <les> ok
[01:22:59] <les> it is a rotational equivalent of cone mass
[01:23:05] <les> in this case
[01:23:24] <les> it is kind of a measure of "flywheel effect"
[01:24:23] <les> it effects the TS parameters Fs, Qes, Qms a bunch
[01:25:03] <Yuga> ok
[01:25:19] <Jacky^> g night
[01:25:36] <les> night
[01:25:54] <les> a dc srvo is just a voice coil that goes round
[01:26:27] <Yuga> yes
[01:27:28] <les> and... polar moment of inertia would very strongly effect efficiency
[01:28:34] <les> lower is better
[01:28:58] <LawrenceG> hey les, sounds like one needs to hook the starter motor up to the trunk lid via the tire iron and have a real thumper!
[01:29:08] <Yuga> gosh.. this sound's like lot's of math's i dont understand again
[01:29:20] <les> the trick is to get it low enough that you can cross over at say 80 hz or so
[01:29:24] <Yuga> i can build stuff... the math's get's me in the groin thou
[01:30:11] <les> yeah hunt up the original theile small paper..a lot of math.
[01:30:58] <les> tell you what... if you want to build a servo speaker...as time permits I can do the math.
[01:31:27] <les> you can make one for yourselfbut not sell it...it's patented
[01:31:57] <Yuga> not a problem
[01:32:05] <Yuga> i hate other ppl having what i have :)
[01:32:17] <les> haha
[01:32:20] <Yuga> hence the reason i bought RCF speakers.. had to actualy import them :)
[01:32:29] <Yuga> same with thr crown amp's
[01:32:36] <Yuga> and my cd players :)
[01:32:42] <les> of course you can even have feedback withthe things
[01:32:49] <Yuga> it might all be comon stuff where u are from.. but here it's like gold :)
[01:33:12] <les> but almost all people are not conditioned to the super clean sound of motional feedback
[01:33:19] <les> so they don't like it
[01:33:41] <Yuga> when u say "servo speaker" i hope u are meaning one BIG ASS dB rating?
[01:33:59] <les> people like a bit of second and third harmonic distortion
[01:34:13] <les> no, I mean with an encoder
[01:34:23] <les> just like cnc
[01:34:57] <Yuga> This is actualy quite exciting... even more exciting than building a cnc machine :)
[01:35:14] <Yuga> just ignore me.. sound if kinda what i live for
[01:35:16] <les> it's the same thing really. Same math.
[01:35:40] <anonimasu> that's like a closed loop speaker..
[01:35:47] <les> exactly
[01:35:54] <anonimasu> 50hz will be 50hz ;)
[01:36:15] <Yuga> les.. what kinda hz u think it should be able to reach?
[01:36:17] <les> but I did many double blind tests with such things
[01:36:23] <Yuga> i have read of some going to 150hz
[01:36:49] <les> with a servo motor...80 would be doing good.
[01:37:20] <Yuga> thought 150 was alittle bit of wishfull thinking on there behalf
[01:37:21] <les> fourth order Linkowitz Reilly
[01:37:32] <les> or third order Butterworth
[01:38:13] <anonimasu> night guys
[01:38:13] <Yuga> no o in linkwitz
[01:38:18] <Yuga> night Anastasia
[01:38:20] <Yuga> oopz
[01:38:22] <Yuga> anonimasu
[01:38:23] <anonimasu> grr!
[01:38:26] <anonimasu> ^_^
[01:38:28] <les> haha
[01:38:29] <Anastasia> Night Yuga
[01:38:55] <les> kzan isn't leaving...
[01:38:57] <Anastasia> Trying to get lm-sensors to work on this damn MSI K7T board...
[01:39:09] <les> until I bore her to death.
[01:39:17] <Anastasia> THis is K`zan on the development box
[01:39:22] <les> right
[01:39:35] <Anastasia> I'll let you know if you get vboring :)
[01:39:56] <les> my ex wives did that already.
[01:40:02] <Anastasia> LOL
[01:40:03] <les> haha
[01:41:47] <les> anyway Linkwitz-Reilly is better at middle to high frequencies...it doesn't "wink down" in the crossover region
[01:42:10] <les> third order butterworth is still kinda nice at 80 hz
[01:42:31] <les> no winking due to the long wavelength
[01:43:31] <Yuga> les.. what size drivers u recon would be best? and how many?
[01:43:44] <les> for servo drive?
[01:44:01] <Yuga> yep?
[01:44:21] <les> 18 recone kits. 4. one per side.
[01:44:22] <Yuga> i mean "yep!"
[01:44:49] <Yuga> what about the foam idea?
[01:44:50] <les> danly uses passive too...I am not fond of them.
[01:45:35] <Yuga> and another thing with usign recone kit's... where in the world am i going to find something with 1" of travle?
[01:45:40] <les> I like the foam idea. I ain't gonna talk about it no more.:)
[01:46:07] <les> unless you want to start a company.
[01:46:45] <Yuga> do me a fav and send me a pm
[01:46:54] <Yuga> wanna c if it is actualy working today
[01:47:11] <les> it's just an idea.
[01:47:18] <les> the math works though.
[01:47:53] <Yuga> well i am totaly interested
[01:48:00] <les> hmm
[01:48:17] <les> wanna be the next RCF?
[01:48:22] <Yuga> nopes
[01:48:26] <les> haha
[01:48:30] <Yuga> wanna kick the shit into them :)
[01:48:36] <les> heh
[01:49:13] <Yuga> dont wanna be the same as the rest... have to kill the compeditors
[02:15:54] <rayh-away> rayh-away is now known as rayh
[02:17:43] <dmess> who's good'er than me with derivetives???
[02:18:41] <dmess> i'm stuck'eded
[02:30:52] <Jymmm> derivetives?
[02:30:59] <Jymmm> in what context?
[02:33:11] <Jymmm> mounting the base was a PITA!
[02:47:20] <les> dmess I used to be good anyway.
[02:47:32] <les> give me a function to differentiate
[02:48:54] <les> no products now!
[02:49:23] <les> I'd hate to crack a book.
[02:49:42] <Jymmm> les 1 + 1 /1 * 1 ^ 1
[02:50:15] <les> df/dt=0
[02:50:22] <les> thankyou thankyou
[02:50:27] <Jymmm> E = mc^2
[02:50:36] <les> blah
[02:50:37] <Jymmm> m o u s e
[02:50:37] <les> ok
[02:51:15] <les> dE/dc=2mc
[02:51:15] <Jymmm> never thought drilling/countersonking four holes would take all day
[02:51:19] <les> ha!
[02:51:32] <Jymmm> R2D2
[02:51:48] <les> aw, anything takes all day
[02:52:19] <Jymmm> well, it shouldn't
[02:52:28] <les> dr2/dd2= uh.... 4RD
[02:52:37] <Jymmm> but had to get the board aligned with the machine first
[02:52:45] <Jymmm> LN2
[02:52:47] <Jymmm> LOx
[02:52:51] <Jymmm> LOX
[02:52:53] <les> aeiii
[02:53:08] <Jymmm> eieio
[02:53:19] <Jymmm> the cow goes moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[02:53:41] <Jymmm> ha! top that!
[02:53:50] <les> congo is going meoooooooooooooooooooooow
[02:54:08] <Jymmm> screw the cat, what about the chicken?
[02:55:01] <Jymmm> unless congo is the name of the chicken
[02:55:15] <les> the chicken is roosting in a tree...it's dark here
[02:55:24] <Jymmm> ah, heh
[02:55:34] <Jymmm> must be a low tree
[02:55:43] <les> pretty high really
[02:55:48] <les> it can fly well
[02:55:57] <Jymmm> lo, really?
[02:56:07] <Jymmm> brb... coffee
[02:56:25] <les> yeah. Small bantam chicken. Low reynold's number.
[03:11:29] <Jymmm> I know nothing of chickens =)
[03:11:49] <les> it's similitude.
[03:11:58] <les> example:
[03:12:03] <Jymmm> les What do you think of using a keyless jacobs chuck instead of a collet for small shanks? 1/8" or less?
[03:13:01] <les> no keyless chuck on routers!
[03:13:08] <les> not balanced
[03:13:16] <Jymmm> what about keyed ?
[03:13:23] <les> centripedal accel will open the jaws
[03:13:29] <les> same
[03:13:37] <Jymmm> sigh
[03:13:38] <les> not made for high rpm
[03:14:06] <Jymmm> alright (damnit), I'll order the 1/4" to 1/8" collet adapter then
[03:14:25] <les> or have someone make you a toolholder
[03:14:53] <les> like the ones on my site
[03:15:09] <Jymmm> dont they use set screws to hold the bit?
[03:15:30] <les> yeah...with a balance hole opposite
[03:16:34] <Jymmm> I think I'll order the collet adapter for now. Sounds like something I'd screw up! lol
[03:16:42] <les> some balance out just by using a recessed set screw too
[03:16:43] <Jymmm> the alignment part
[03:17:21] <les> yeah...boring a 1/8 hole to .0005 concentricity is hard
[03:17:42] <Jymmm> I bet
[03:17:58] <Jymmm> hell aligning a board on the table took me forever
[03:18:10] <Jymmm> but I only have to do it once
[03:18:10] <les> For theColombo I got 1/8, 1/4, 1/2
[03:18:19] <les> will hold up to 1"
[03:18:27] <Jymmm> Yeah, Bosch doens't make 1/8" collets
[03:18:46] <les> just a 1/4 to 1/8 sleeve
[03:19:22] <Jymmm> http://www.routerbitworld.com/product_info.php?products_id=20827
[03:20:08] <Jymmm> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TRAW.01-A2N6NO8W19JCUN._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
[03:20:40] <les> yup
[03:21:12] <Jymmm> Mine is the Sears branded version of this:
http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/bosch1617EVSrtr.html
[03:21:39] <les> I was showing someone my.01 diameter router bits...they freaked out
[03:22:09] <Jymmm> whee do you get those from?
[03:22:11] <Jymmm> where
[03:22:30] <les> excellon I think
[03:22:37] <les> pcb bits
[03:23:04] <les> tool bit city has down to .o2 way cheap
[03:23:06] <Jymmm> hmmm... I need 1/16" and 1/32" downcut bits
[03:23:35] <Jymmm> toolbitcity.com ?
[03:24:05] <Jymmm> or drillbitcity.com
[03:24:11] <les> oops...
[03:24:13] <les> http://www.drillbitcity.com/
[03:24:34] <Jymmm> are their resharpened bits any good?
[03:24:51] <les> I used to drive by their place every day on the way to work
[03:25:01] <les> yeah...they are fine
[03:25:27] <les> you'll break em before they grt dull again
[03:25:37] <Jymmm> heh, ok
[03:25:41] <les> cheap too
[03:25:49] <Jymmm> usually what kills you is the shipping
[03:26:25] <les> and when you break them... sharpen them down to a point with a green wheel and make scriber tips!
[03:26:57] <Jymmm> scriber tips?
[03:27:14] <les> you know...for scribing lines in metal
[03:27:25] <Jymmm> manually, not cnc wise
[03:27:30] <les> right
[03:27:51] <Jymmm> ok, for a sec there I thought you meant scribing like on the surface of glass
[03:27:55] <Jymmm> via cnc
[03:28:07] <les> actually...they could
[03:28:19] <les> solid carbide
[03:28:41] <Jymmm> I'm real leary of doing any glass right now... too much glass dust in the air
[03:29:08] <les> I have bad luck with cutting glass
[03:29:25] <les> the little wheel thing and kerosene...
[03:29:39] <Jymmm> my aunt has done stained glass for years - all by hand and she's very good.
[03:29:41] <les> always breaks the wrong way
[03:29:49] <Jymmm> I guess I could learn that from her
[03:30:14] <les> Seems like people that can do that are kinda relaxed
[03:30:49] <les> they just casually grab it with pliers and it pops right on the line
[03:30:57] <Jymmm> heh... I've seen her snap some narroe stuff... no problem.
[03:31:01] <les> it always shatters with me.
[03:31:07] <Jymmm> same here
[03:32:09] <les> I get all up tight and analyze it...then break it into a thousand pieces
[03:32:39] <Jymmm> yeah, I have yet to snap plastic EXACTLY on the line yet.
[03:32:49] <Jymmm> and I SERIOUSLY score it deep too
[03:33:08] <Jymmm> always the ---------------------\________________
[03:33:14] <Jymmm> SOB! lol
[03:33:18] <les> yeah
[03:33:49] <les> I give up i cut it on the bandsaw
[03:34:02] <Jymmm> CNC that shit!
[03:34:16] <Jymmm> dont care if it's fater by scoring it!!!
[03:34:22] <les> acryilic is nasty
[03:34:23] <Jymmm> faster
[03:35:08] <les> I always tended to score ones that were fatter
[03:35:44] <les> well if you really score...sure it will fatter
[03:35:54] <les> get
[03:36:07] <les> fatter
[03:36:11] <les> cough
[03:36:35] <Jymmm> do the ring colors represent anything?
http://www.drillbitcity.com/catalogue/images/products/304-RHobbyKit.jpg
[03:37:21] <les> yeah some kind of color code. I never bothered to figure it out. It looks pretty.
[03:37:24] <Jymmm> lol
[03:37:39] <Jymmm> lol @ les fatter joke (just got it)
[03:37:48] <les> cough
[03:38:25] <Jymmm> $20 for that set (resharpened)
[03:39:06] <les> I have bought many bits from them
[03:39:19] <les> all seemed fine
[03:39:59] <K`zan> is there a significant difference between the L298 and L298N ?
[03:40:15] <les> The reason they break is usually because wood router collets have a lot of runout
[03:40:16] <Jymmm> K`zan what does the datasheet say?
[03:40:28] <K`zan> L298 is listes as a motor controller and the N version say stepper motor controller.
[03:40:49] <K`zan> Jymmm: Looks like I am going to have to print out both and go through them line by line :-/.
[03:40:49] <les> I think 298n has diodes built in to the step coils?
[03:40:55] <les> forgot
[03:41:39] <Jymmm> theres an N p hn
[03:43:01] <K`zan> Printing...
[03:43:42] <icee> isn't the N a package difference?
[03:44:10] <icee> like N is powerSOIC, where H/V are the staggered TO-220 style package
[03:46:36] <Jymmm> I looked at two different datasheets, can't see it in either (bastards)
[03:47:00] <Jymmm> l298N == multiwatt vertical
[03:47:23] <Jymmm> l298hn = multiwatt horizintal
[03:53:19] <les> yeah I looked too
[03:53:34] <les> n is multiwatt package that's all
[03:53:54] <Jymmm> which means what? (retorical question)
[03:54:27] <les> nothing...it's just a name
[03:54:40] <les> and a shape
[03:56:21] <Jymmm> les another toy for ya...
http://www.drillbitcity.com/catalogue/product_detail.asp?Tg=302-RepointMachine
[03:58:11] <les> ha! you know where those guys are? Plwaukee airport north of chicago. I took some aerobatic lessons there.
[03:58:32] <les> Palwaukee
[03:59:09] <Jymmm> there ya go.... fly in, get a new toy, fly back... and log more hours
[03:59:18] <les> yeah
[03:59:52] <les> well we flew out...went west...pulled g.
[04:00:51] <fenn> i've got a cheap porter-cable air compressor that recently started overheating.. any ideas?
[04:01:14] <icee> oil lube or oilless?
[04:01:14] <Jymmm> add oil
[04:01:18] <fenn> oil-less
[04:01:24] <Jymmm> add oil
[04:01:31] <les> ha
[04:01:33] <fenn> i oiled it with some air tool oil and it still overheats
[04:01:43] <les> hmmm
[04:01:50] <Jymmm> seal gone bad?
[04:02:09] <fenn> maybe
[04:02:21] <Jymmm> you open the valve cock every night?
[04:02:31] <les> I have been tld the oil less don't last too long
[04:02:31] <fenn> yeah (grin)
[04:02:46] <Jymmm> fenn liar!
[04:03:00] <Jymmm> probably full of water and rust!
[04:03:01] <fenn> so the seals go bad and then it just swooshes air around instead of pumping it?
[04:03:07] <Jymmm> 5 gallons worth =)
[04:03:11] <les> not sure
[04:03:39] <les> I am sold on old type cylinder comressors
[04:03:48] <fenn> me too.. i should probably just get one
[04:03:53] <les> I have had one running for 20 years
[04:03:55] <Jymmm> fenn do you REALLY drain it after each use?
[04:04:02] <fenn> Jymmm: yes i REALLY do
[04:04:14] <les> I use a weep valve
[04:04:17] <Jymmm> heh, ok. you sounded like you were being a smartass
[04:04:22] <Jymmm> =)
[04:04:46] <les> or...just wait..the tank will rot...automatic weep valve
[04:04:55] <Jymmm> lol
[04:05:43] <Jymmm> $4 not too shabby
https://www.drillbitcity.com/catalogue/product_detail.asp?Tg=900-Special
[04:07:08] <les> yeah...ok deal. the skinny ones break real easily. It is really a 4 piece scriber tip set
[04:07:20] <Jymmm> lol
[04:07:39] <Jymmm> I was thinking for PCB maybe
[04:07:53] <les> that is what they were made for
[04:08:26] <les> in a 60,000 rpm westwind air bearing spindle
[04:08:52] <Jymmm> hey! leave my 25k rpm alone now, ya hear!
[04:09:15] <les> heh
[04:09:26] <K`zan> grrrr
[04:09:35] <les> ?
[04:10:13] <K`zan> I guess if I am going to do it, I build the HV board as the normal one prints off the paper. Maybe there is a way to just get the copper out of eagle.
[04:10:38] <K`zan> http://www.pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm
[04:11:03] <K`zan> The HV one prints centered on the page, so no problems with cutoff.
[04:12:11] <les> wish I could give you my protel seat...I never use it.
[04:12:32] <les> it hurts my brain.
[04:12:52] <K`zan> :-) No problem, only person that would use it is me then :). REason I got eagle (freebie at the moment) is because so many people use it.
[04:13:26] <les> corp sent me the seat for a job.
[04:13:39] <les> $12k (for them)
[04:13:52] <K`zan> Bloody decent of them, but Imo a big waste of $$$ unless you REALLY need it.
[04:14:14] <les> well I did one board.
[04:14:25] <K`zan> Ah, so that is how one turns on and off layers in eagle. Now to figure out how the labels relate :-).\
[04:14:25] <les> just one.
[04:14:35] <K`zan> Must have been complex as hell to need that.
[04:14:49] <les> no it was simple.
[04:14:53] <les> but
[04:15:25] <K`zan> Clueless management with more $$$ than brains...
[04:15:29] <les> 100,000 sales now on the product
[04:15:41] <K`zan> Amazing what you can do with something like gschem for FREE :-).
[04:15:49] <K`zan> gschem / PCB
[04:15:53] <les> technicsally they own the seat though.
[04:16:13] <les> bluh
[04:16:27] <les> technically
[04:16:50] <K`zan> Or a block of them if they can give them away.
[04:17:00] <K`zan> But yes, it is theirs.
[04:17:13] <K`zan> Surprised they didn't want it back when you were done :)
[04:17:59] <les> protel requires remembering too much. Bad for seldom use.
[04:18:45] <K`zan> Yep true
[04:19:16] <K`zan> wtf.... board outline runs all over the copper....
[04:19:24] <les> Fine for motherboards or something.
[04:20:25] <K`zan> Yeah, I do 50-100 of those a year now ;-)
[04:20:45] <les> ha
[04:20:48] <K`zan> I must have hosed the file someway in putzing, time to delete it and get it again.
[04:23:51] <les> I remember when I did boards with fingernail polish and ferric chloride
[04:24:51] <les> aka really strong geritol
[04:27:01] <les> I had a summer job in school etching ic leadframes and such
[04:27:37] <les> once I pumped ferric cloride into a mislablelled waste ferric drum
[04:28:21] <les> it was in fact half full of potassium fericyanide
[04:29:04] <les> made 50 gallons of prussian blue...ferric ferricyanide!
[04:30:01] <les> it was blue and gooey
[04:30:45] <les> boss got mad but I didn't mislable the drum
[04:30:57] <les> label
[04:31:20] <K`zan> Success!
[04:32:14] <K`zan> LOL, that goes back a LONG ways, fingernail polish...
[04:32:34] <K`zan> So much to learn.
[04:32:40] <les> yeah.
[04:33:08] <K`zan> Wonder what the advantage / disadvantae to making the HV version over the regular one really is as far as I am concerned.
[04:33:14] <les> and the ever popular ironing on xerox copy toner
[04:33:26] <K`zan> Worked though and was a lot cheaper than a resist pen :).
[04:33:33] <les> yeah
[04:33:49] <K`zan> I have never gotten that to work worth a damn, always spotty with voids, etc.
[04:34:10] <les> me to always broke down in the ferric
[04:34:17] <les> too
[04:34:33] <K`zan> Maybe that copier toner works better than laserjet toner as you sure hear a lot about people doing it.
[04:34:49] <K`zan> Of course you never see the boards :).
[04:35:26] <K`zan> going to have to corner cradek and see what he has to say about the two versions...
[04:35:35] <les> I don't know...I went from that to ic photolithography at intersil
[04:35:50] <les> that worked a bit better...sometimes
[04:36:54] <K`zan> So far prices on almost all the big parts for this are about $50 (4channels worth).
[04:37:09] <K`zan> I should have most of the rest.
[04:37:19] <les> seems reasonable
[04:37:41] <K`zan> Got to drag out the film and print the artwork.
[04:38:30] <K`zan> laser toner is so thin, really need to see about some real drafing film. Exposure is VERY short using that. Worked out a little better on the inkjet though.
[04:39:13] <K`zan> photolithography - essentially the mask/etch process like I use to do PCBs with, but a lot more togetherr :-)?
[04:39:43] <les> have done plenty of that. My heater product is screen printed using pcb stuff. it is additive though. Polymer thick film.
[04:40:07] <K`zan> heater product ?
[04:40:36] <les> photolithography...back when I did that we could do 2 micron lines and spaces..crude now.
[04:40:45] <Jymmm> les any way of that being allied manually (by hand) ?
[04:40:53] <Jymmm> applied
[04:40:59] <K`zan> Could use one here :-) 62F and now that I am using the LCD display, the big 19" crt heater contributes nothing useful :)
[04:41:12] <les> you know the heaters on side mirrors on cars?
[04:41:45] <les> to remove ice and mist?
[04:42:02] <K`zan> Jymmm: you need a teensy-tiny brush, a good magnifier and a very steady hand ;-)
[04:42:23] <Jymmm> K`zan I got a cnc machine, will mount a brush to it =)
[04:42:39] <K`zan> Heard of 'em I use the old fashioned method, I stay away from cold climes :).
[04:42:46] <K`zan> Jymmm: That would work :-).
[04:43:04] <K`zan> I think I am going to use a 1/4-20 for my first lead screw...
[04:43:33] <K`zan> Jerk around with the bolt - use two with a spring in between, will be interesting.
[04:43:48] <Jymmm> les
http://www.store.yahoo.com/drillcity/6pcnewdocutr.html
[04:44:46] <K`zan> Goody, I can get milling stuff the same place I get my PCB drill bits from !
[04:45:22] <les> I buy from them
[04:45:58] <les> anyway, I used pcb technology to make some of those car mirror heaters
[04:46:22] <K`zan> Just heat up the traces ?
[04:46:36] <Jymmm> thick film resisters
[04:46:41] <les> not quite
[04:46:50] <K`zan> Ah, makes more sense
[04:46:59] <les> actually I invented it.
[04:47:10] <les> let's see...just a sec...
[04:47:28] <Jymmm> no, *I* invented it, you just stole my idea!
[04:47:37] <K`zan> LOL
[04:47:42] <les> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=watts.INZZ.&s2=Leslie.INZZ.&OS=IN/watts+AND+IN/Leslie&RS=IN/watts+AND+IN/Leslie
[04:47:56] <K`zan> bring in the clowns errr lawyers :-)
[04:48:04] <Jymmm> all those were my ideas he stole!
[04:48:15] <les> many law suits over this in fact
[04:48:35] <les> yes. stole em from jymmm
[04:49:04] <Jymmm> HA! thats all the lawyers needed was you to admit it! WE HAVE IT LOGGED NOW!
[04:49:17] <les> oops
[04:49:22] <Jymmm> lol
[04:50:32] <K`zan> Good old windy city, my sympathy :-)
[04:51:00] <les> I am listed as living in elmhurst at that time
[04:51:06] <les> elmhurst was ok
[04:51:32] <K`zan> Ever make it to the Lizadro (sp?)
[04:52:03] <les> nice wholesome midwest town. good fourth of july parades
[04:52:16] <les> no I don't think
[04:52:18] <K`zan> Elmhurst was ok and even had a nice hobby shop, but lots of the most gawd awful greasy pizza :).
[04:52:19] <Jymmm> les nice eye candy?
[04:52:35] <K`zan> Used to go skating down at the park in the winter :-).
[04:52:48] <K`zan> Beats hell out of slumburg, to be sure.
[04:53:10] <K`zan> Almost 10 years of chitown was quite ENOUGH.
[04:53:20] <les> For me it was soccer for kids. parades. Working on the side mirror heat concept.
[04:53:42] <K`zan> I swore that was the most corrupt place on the planet short of going to a particularly bad third world country...
[04:53:49] <les> Also, I literally worked myself into the hospital with that invention.
[04:53:59] <les> Elmhurst hospital;.
[04:54:02] <K`zan> Then I moved to seattle, chicago is a much less corrupt place.
[04:54:12] <Jymmm> les um.... dont do that!
[04:55:25] <les> It took me 3 years to get a sale on that product...and I spent a very great deal of the corporation's money.
[04:56:17] <les> finally they cut me off.
[04:56:27] <les> then I got the sale.
[04:56:38] <les> they cut me on again.
[04:56:55] <K`zan> Heh
[04:57:25] <les> now, 15 years later...
[04:57:35] <les> we ended up selling a few.
[04:57:53] <Jymmm> yeah, a few million
[04:57:58] <les> 0.5 billion about
[04:58:11] <les> so I get protel free I guess.
[04:58:19] <cradek> hello hello
[04:58:30] <les> hi candidate chris
[04:58:36] <cradek> haha
[04:58:46] <cradek> and the only one so far, it looks like
[04:58:53] <les> yeah.
[04:58:58] <Jymmm> who's stepping down?
[04:59:09] <cradek> paul, matt
[04:59:13] <les> well you can just be emc dictator.
[04:59:23] <Jymmm> both of them?
[05:01:07] <les> matt wants to sell houses. Paul wants to do RTAI
[05:01:23] <Jymmm> ah
[05:01:42] <cradek> is jmk staying?
[05:01:48] <cradek> haven't heard from him lately
[05:01:51] <les> yeah I guess
[05:01:58] <cradek> good
[05:05:05] <K`zan> cradek: Got some time to dispell some ignorance ?
[05:05:09] <K`zan> :-)
[05:05:47] <cradek> K`zan: I'll try
[05:06:03] <K`zan> Ok, thanks much!
[05:06:41] <K`zan> Current line of advance pertains to those drivers you pointed me at and I think you use. Two versions - HV and !HV...
[05:06:52] <cradek> right
[05:07:01] <cradek> when I built mine, the HV version was not available
[05:07:22] <K`zan> For me :-) is there any advantage to going with the HV board? It seems that the !HV one should do just fine...
[05:07:37] <cradek> what high voltage do you intend to use for the motors?
[05:07:51] <cradek> you can use up to 42? 45? I think with L298
[05:07:59] <cradek> I am using a regulated 40
[05:08:12] <K`zan> I envision 24V BUT that might change with the eventual addition of the Taig, but these things are stone simple to build...
[05:08:41] <cradek> the problem is that a 7805 is pretty bad when you give it much over about 9V in.
[05:08:46] <cradek> they get hot, etc
[05:08:56] <K`zan> Familiar with that.
[05:09:07] <cradek> even for 24v, you might want to consider the HV version, or use a separate logic supply (which is what I did)
[05:09:39] <cradek> if you're going to use my breakout board, you will want the normal version, and just leave the regulators off
[05:09:41] <K`zan> Not that much more expensive to just go ahead and do the HV one, I just don't know how it will work with my playtoy steppers...
[05:09:51] <cradek> then the regulators go on the breakout board which hooks to a separate logic supply.
[05:10:38] <K`zan> I will need the breakout board with those anyway, won't I?
[05:10:46] <cradek> yes, or something else like it
[05:11:14] <cradek> the whole setup works really well for me
[05:11:31] <K`zan> Someone mentioned that with my playtoy steppers, if I got the HobbyCNC driver I'd have to change the sense resistors...
[05:11:41] <cradek> yeah, that was me
[05:11:52] <cradek> I think you said the hobbycnc driver would only go down to .5A as it comes
[05:11:58] <K`zan> Not sure if that will also affect homebrew boards...
[05:12:13] <cradek> you might want to look at the L297 datasheet
[05:12:36] <K`zan> Yes, sorrry I forgot, been doing way too much reading and searching, getting a bit frazzled :).
[05:12:59] <cradek> it's hard to plan a whole project 100% before starting. I am terrible at that
[05:13:06] <K`zan> OK, will look that over. Futurelec has excellent prices on the 298 and 297
[05:13:28] <cradek> cool
[05:13:46] <K`zan> About half the price of Digikey.
[05:13:47] <cradek> I think I paid nearly $100 for parts for all four axes, and the 297/298 were the bulk of it
[05:13:52] <cradek> maybe I got screwed
[05:14:25] <K`zan> So far, less the regulators, 4 each of the 297/298 and 50 diodes I am at about $50.
[05:14:32] <les> I may use the 298 onthat higher torque tester Iwas asked about tody
[05:14:47] <les> today
[05:14:48] <cradek> cool, that's nice and affordable (assuming you can do the rest)
[05:14:59] <cradek> don't forget the pcb mount DB25, lots of 7805s, etc
[05:15:07] <cradek> heat sinks maybe
[05:15:37] <K`zan> Def heat sinks :-). If not immediately then for sure later when things start getting serious :-).
[05:15:51] <cradek> and remember the little pcb mount potentiometers for current adjustment
[05:16:00] <cradek> (just recalling what I couldn't find in my junkbox)
[05:16:08] <K`zan> Busily filling out the parts list with "got" and "order" in an OO spreadsheet :).
[05:16:30] <les> digikey?
[05:16:34] <cradek> I think I had to order the 7405s (schmitt triggers)
[05:16:39] <K`zan> Will post the list when I get done.
[05:16:50] <K`zan> Digikey is not cheap, but they DO have it.
[05:16:51] <cradek> you could use 7404 in a pinch but it's good to have schmitt trigger inputs.
[05:17:04] <K`zan> 74HC04 :)
[05:17:08] <K`zan> err HS
[05:17:15] <K`zan> err break time LOL
[05:17:21] <cradek> doesn't it call for 05? I forget
[05:17:23] <cradek> it's been a while
[05:27:42] <Jymmm> can a SSR be driven directly by paraport?
[05:56:08] <Jymmm> WOW... I scared everyone off on that question! heh
[05:58:42] <K`zan> cradek: This is the one?
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM317HV.html
[06:05:49] <K`zan> Just asked natsemi for 5 samples :).
[06:29:08] <K`zan> Cost per axis:$13.77
[06:29:21] <K`zan> less resistors headers and screw connectors...
[06:29:29] <K`zan> so far :-).
[06:29:43] <Jacky^> good moorning emc !!!
[06:29:46] <Jacky^> :D
[06:29:49] <K`zan> :-)
[07:17:37] <K`zan> Heh. natsemi wants more than what digikey charges for samples, significantly more...
[07:44:17] <icee> National isn't equipped well to sell single units of things.
[07:44:24] <icee> They only do it for things distributors like digikey won't stock
[07:45:20] <Jacky^> damn..
[07:45:28] <Jacky^> nessus leave the gpl
[07:45:37] <Jacky^> grrr
[07:48:00] <Jacky^> fuck
[08:48:13] <icee> jacky: yah, how dare they not keep developing crap for you for nothing
[08:49:58] <Jacky^> tsk ..
[08:50:15] <Jacky^> i'm going to remove this crap from my Debian :P
[08:50:29] <icee> *shrug* all the existing code remains under the GPL
[08:50:34] <Jacky^> nmap is better
[08:50:37] <Jacky^> :D
[08:50:37] <icee> just the company that makes it is saying "we're not giving away code for free anymore"
[08:51:09] <icee> nmap doesn't even do the things that nessus does :P
[08:51:21] <Jacky^> a little better ..
[08:51:40] <Jacky^> bah !
[08:52:01] <Jacky^> its all the same ..
[08:52:13] <Jacky^> business $$$$$ and nothing more
[08:52:23] <icee> yah. how dare people try and make a living
[08:52:44] <icee> I mean, they gave away code for free for years and it ended up not working out for them
[08:52:45] <icee> so they
[08:52:51] <Jacky^> software is not a material ..
[08:52:54] <icee> are very very bad people for not giving away for free anything new they write
[08:52:59] <Jacky^> peoples wont understand
[08:53:11] <Jacky^> pc software and programs should be freeeeee
[08:53:15] <Jacky^> for all
[08:53:28] <icee> And should books, too? They're just bits after all
[08:53:32] <Jacky^> i can buy food
[08:53:57] <Jacky^> otherwise the world will be a jail
[08:54:30] <Jacky^> software must be FREE !
[08:54:55] <Jacky^> a lot of peoples dont have money to buy that
[08:55:04] <icee> And how are all the software engineers supposed to make a living?
[08:55:21] <anonimasu> icee: you say the same as I do..
[08:55:40] <icee> I think software is going to settle down like other engineering industries
[08:55:44] <icee> many components will be standardized/open
[08:55:51] <icee> but there will be lots of room for proprietary products too
[08:55:56] <Jacky^> icee: i repeat .. you cant touch the software
[08:56:04] <Jacky^> you can seel hardware
[08:56:08] <Jacky^> ok ?
[08:56:23] <anonimasu> Jacky^: it's quite simple if software engineers do not get paid they have no food.
[08:56:24] <icee> jacky: so all software gets written by hobbyists, then?
[08:56:28] <Jacky^> lets see ..
[08:56:29] <icee> or by hardware companies as a value add?
[08:56:56] <Jacky^> anonimasu: its ok
[08:57:14] <Jacky^> but not for an open sorce,, as nessus was born
[08:57:23] <anonimasu> Jacky^: are you being stupid? , YOU/I/whatever needs to make money for a living.
[08:57:34] <Jacky^> anonimasu: not in that way
[08:57:48] <anonimasu> Jacky^: yes exactly in that way..
[08:57:48] <Jacky^> i cant sell you smog
[08:57:52] <icee> nessus was written by a guy named renaud deraison
[08:57:54] <Jacky^> nahh
[08:58:06] <Jacky^> lol
[08:58:08] <icee> he started a company called tenable that has written > 99.9% of the code
[08:58:11] <anonimasu> Jacky^: No, but you can sell me stuff you've developed to provide your family with food
[08:58:29] <Jacky^> anonimasu: not with the software
[08:58:31] <icee> Now all he's said is "Uh, we're not releasing any of our changes to the rest of the world anymore, because the rest of the world hasn't been helping us"
[08:58:47] <anonimasu> Jacky^: why?
[08:58:57] <Jacky^> i cant providing food for my family as you mean
[08:58:57] <anonimasu> Jacky^: How are the developers going to get paid?
[08:59:01] <Jacky^> why not
[08:59:02] <icee> I guess you should think he should have to continue to work for free and give away the stuff he writes forever
[08:59:03] <Jacky^> damn
[08:59:19] <Jacky^> its an abstract
[08:59:23] <Jacky^> not material
[08:59:33] <icee> So? It still takes people to create it
[08:59:48] <anonimasu> Jacky^: time costs havent you learned that yet?
[08:59:51] <Jacky^> why irc is free for all ?
[09:00:03] <Jacky^> what if you tomorrow start to pay for it ?
[09:00:09] <Jacky^> then ?
[09:00:10] <icee> jacky: Because some people feel like giving away resources to start servers
[09:00:17] <Jacky^> peoples need the food ..
[09:00:20] <icee> I don't think they're -obligated- to because they have in the past
[09:00:20] <anonimasu> because irc is a insignificant thing in this matter..
[09:00:22] <Jacky^> lets see..
[09:00:28] <Jacky^> or not ?
[09:00:35] <Jacky^> irc should be for all ?
[09:00:40] <Jacky^> free ?
[09:00:43] <Jacky^> why ??
[09:00:53] <icee> jacky: You have no right to demand that other people give away their work for nothing.
[09:01:00] <anonimasu> Jacky^: how many people that works full time with irc servers..
[09:01:11] <icee> jacky: What do you do for a living?
[09:01:18] <Jacky^> icee: the work for nothing as bill does..
[09:01:35] <icee> jacky: Want to say something that makes sense?
[09:01:36] <Jacky^> using the basic codes of other peoples
[09:01:43] <Jacky^> and univerity guys ..
[09:01:49] <Jacky^> it seem to you right ?
[09:02:04] <Jacky^> mee not
[09:02:16] <Jacky^> so ..
[09:02:23] <Jacky^> nessus was bor free
[09:02:26] <Jacky^> born*
[09:02:42] <icee> jacky: Almost all of the code was written by three people who work for Tenable.
[09:02:50] <icee> jacky: You're saying those people are being bad by not giving you any more code free.
[09:03:11] <icee> Hey, the existing code is under the GPL; maybe -you- should go maintain it and add features.
[09:03:31] <icee> They have no obligation to do it for you.
[09:03:32] <anonimasu> Jacky^: obviously you have no clue about developing large scale projects, how much money research & development costs..
[09:03:42] <Jacky^> icee.. there are many ways to make money ..
[09:03:56] <anonimasu> not in software engineering..
[09:03:58] <Jacky^> not closing the source code
[09:04:07] <icee> jacky: But they tried that, and they're not making money.
[09:04:12] <icee> jacky: Do they ahve to try forever?
[09:04:14] <Jacky^> this is not america ..
[09:04:26] <Jacky^> and many peoples cant buy the software
[09:04:34] <anonimasu> Jacky^: You should start living in the real world..
[09:04:41] <Jacky^> as in many other countries
[09:04:53] <Jacky^> well.. they will use cracked softw
[09:05:04] <anonimasu> Jacky^: If I started to give away the sourcecode off the machine control at work..
[09:05:05] <Jacky^> and i agreed
[09:05:10] <anonimasu> the competitors would steal it in 0.5 secs.
[09:05:14] <anonimasu> and copy the machines we sell.
[09:05:27] <Jacky^> mmhh
[09:05:46] <anonimasu> Jacky^: How many hours do you think I've spent developing that stuff?
[09:06:03] <Jacky^> anonimasu: i'm a developer too
[09:06:04] <anonimasu> Jacky^: and how many 10k's do you think it's cost the company to keep me developing it?
[09:06:11] <Jacky^> i know what it mean ..
[09:06:32] <icee> When I founded my company, we spent >$10M building enterprise software
[09:06:42] <icee> money that would never have been spent if we couldn't sell the actual software
[09:06:48] <icee> and giving things away free effectively bars selling them
[09:06:53] <icee> selling support or whatever doesn't make it up
[09:07:03] <anonimasu> Jacky^: so where do you think the revenue should come from?
[09:07:13] <icee> we also gave away stuff free-- when it wasn't fundamental to our competitive advantage and it made sense to us to
[09:07:21] <Jacky^> anonimasu: a donation would be ok
[09:07:26] <icee> haha
[09:07:31] <icee> donations doesn't pay us back $10M
[09:07:33] <Jacky^> but the software should be free
[09:07:45] <Jacky^> give me food
[09:07:46] <anonimasu> Jacky^: Who donates that ammount of cash?
[09:07:51] <Jacky^> and i will pay for it
[09:08:03] <Jacky^> i cant pay the smog i cant touch it
[09:08:13] <Jacky^> i cant pay to learn to speak english
[09:08:21] <Jacky^> you cant pay to speak
[09:08:27] <Jacky^> open your mind ..
[09:08:38] <icee> jacky: I just know that I spent $10M and gave 100 people jobs
[09:08:45] <icee> and that if i couldn't sell my software, i wouldn't have been able to do it.
[09:08:55] <Jacky^> and search an alternative way to make business
[09:09:05] <Jacky^> icee: bad ..
[09:09:06] <anonimasu> Jacky^: There are no alternative ways of developing software...
[09:09:32] <icee> well, there -are- alternative ways, but not all business models are viable in all spaces
[09:09:34] <Jacky^> anonimasu: there are an alternative way to comunicate other than speak talk ?
[09:09:39] <Jacky^> as the monkey ?
[09:09:44] <Jacky^> O_O
[09:09:46] <Jacky^> uhuh
[09:10:15] <anonimasu> Jacky^: if I cant make a living off what I do, why would I do it?
[09:10:21] <Jacky^> then try to talk to me like the monkey
[09:10:29] <Jacky^> let see what happen ..
[09:10:43] <anonimasu> sure I love developing but it dosent feed me..
[09:10:54] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ grrr
[09:11:05] <anonimasu> Jacky^: I guess we should stop developing software at all.. and leave the programmers that work for free to develop..
[09:11:47] <Jacky^> software is like a language
[09:11:56] <Jacky^> language is free
[09:12:09] <anonimasu> Jacky^: Are books free?
[09:12:17] <Jacky^> no
[09:12:20] <anonimasu> there you have it..
[09:12:24] <Jacky^> some peoples died for it
[09:12:31] <Jacky^> ie for the bibles
[09:12:46] <Jacky^> to translate it in english then divulgate it ..
[09:12:54] <Jacky^> think a little about it ..
[09:13:04] <anonimasu> Jacky^: it's not the language it's what's written with it that matters..
[09:13:21] <icee> jacky: if I write a book about machine control, should you be able to get a copy of the contents free?
[09:13:24] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ tired ..
[09:13:27] <Jacky^> ok..
[09:13:57] <icee> The whole reason why I might write a book is because I assume people will buy it
[09:14:47] <Jacky^> then .. all peoples that release his software for free is stupid
[09:14:50] <Jacky^> right
[09:14:56] <icee> No, I've said the opposite throughout this.
[09:15:04] <Jacky^> yeah ..
[09:15:07] <icee> Like my company released software free-- where it didn't relate to our competitive advantage
[09:15:40] <icee> and there's reasons why many companies might choose to collaborate together on frameworks/infrastructure and make them open
[09:15:51] <icee> And hey, if someone wants to hack on something themselves and give it away free, good for them.
[09:15:59] <icee> I just don't think I'm entitled to the fruits of other peoples' labor
[09:16:03] <anonimasu> it's not black and white everything free software is a great thing, but if there are so many developers to make it that way why dosent we have a team of several thousands of developers working on emc..
[09:16:04] <Jacky^> the world can change if we want
[09:16:09] <Jacky^> and can be better
[09:16:20] <Jacky^> not in this way
[09:16:25] <anonimasu> I should stop working with software and take up engineering.
[09:16:33] <Jacky^> good idea
[09:16:52] <Jacky^> same thing
[09:17:00] <Jacky^> i cant understand why peoples
[09:17:14] <Jacky^> spent a lot of money for a soccer player ..
[09:17:17] <Jacky^> here
[09:17:26] <Jacky^> youve no idea
[09:17:34] <Jacky^> its right ?
[09:17:40] <Jacky^> dont seem to me
[09:17:50] <icee> If a team has the money and wants to hire a soccer player for a lot of money, it's their right to.
[09:17:54] <icee> It's not your right to tell them how to spend their money.
[09:17:59] <Jacky^> bah
[09:18:10] <icee> any more than it's my right to say what you should do with yours.
[09:18:37] <icee> maybe you just think because they have a lot of money that you do have the right to.
[09:19:06] <Jacky^> im just thinking a lot of peoples that need food ..
[09:19:25] <Jacky^> withous an house..
[09:19:41] <icee> Money is only worth something because people think it can be traded for other peoples' efforts at a certain value.
[09:19:50] <icee> If you take it away and give it to person B, you've diluted its value to person A
[09:20:00] <icee> there's no free lunch where suddenly a ton more people get fed.
[09:20:02] <Jacky^> when maradone take 1.000.000.000 of euro to came in tv in a show in italy ..
[09:20:10] <Jacky^> maradona
[09:20:17] <Jacky^> for 1 hour
[09:20:34] <Jacky^> thats why cant work
[09:20:35] <icee> I don't think anyone has spent $1B euro for 1 hr
[09:20:41] <Jacky^> yeah
[09:21:04] <Jacky^> you think bad ..
[09:21:10] <anonimasu> Jacky^: even if the people made less money it wouldnt really help the people starving
[09:22:07] <icee> and lots of specialized software problems, like the random signal filtering stuff in modern DGPSes.. -is- causing more food to be made and more people to be fed
[09:22:26] <icee> but if companies like Garmin and Trimble couldn't make that money back, they would have never developed that software
[09:22:59] <Jacky^> false
[09:23:07] <Jacky^> the software was free
[09:23:08] <anonimasu> actually it's true..
[09:23:23] <Jacky^> that why actually its wrong
[09:23:26] <anonimasu> Jacky^: what do you call the firmware inside of the GPS's
[09:23:51] <Jacky^> anonimasu: you wont understand ..
[09:23:56] <icee> why would millions of dollars be spent developing the algorithms and implementations if not to make the money back?
[09:23:58] <Jacky^> i want to pay the gps
[09:24:03] <Jacky^> not the software
[09:24:10] <icee> yah, but why would you buy the Garmin GPS
[09:24:18] <icee> when the $70 chinese GPS can do the same things?
[09:24:32] <Jacky^> infact ..
[09:24:41] <K`zan> Uh, duhh, the gps hardware is completely useless without the soft/firmware and vice versa
[09:24:44] <anonimasu> Jacky^: explain it to me..
[09:24:49] <anonimasu> K`zan: yeah :)
[09:25:02] <Jacky^> yes
[09:25:05] <icee> kzan: most manufacturers don't have an implementation of 10cm GPS
[09:25:19] <Jacky^> i cant speak without my voice
[09:25:19] <icee> kzan: Garmin and Trimble do, and they are able to charge a large premium for it
[09:25:20] <anonimasu> K`zan: but the hardware is cheap to develop while good algorithms takes lots of research
[09:25:26] <Jacky^> should i pay to do it ?
[09:25:40] <anonimasu> :)
[09:25:42] <K`zan> No, you should do it yourself
[09:25:50] <Jacky^> why do not pay ?
[09:25:59] <icee> jacky: uh, because it's your voice. It's not -my- labor
[09:26:06] <K`zan> Too easy, those that just buy don't appreciate...
[09:26:07] <Jacky^> mmhh
[09:26:32] <icee> kz: I don't think it's really realistic to expect farmers to implement their own DGPS
[09:26:41] <icee> to steer their tractors with
[09:26:59] <K`zan> Too bad, then find another way to do it.
[09:27:06] <K`zan> THey did for eons...
[09:27:33] <icee> kz: well, computer controlled seeding has increased crop yields significantly
[09:27:57] <icee> kz: so Garmin, etc being able to extract money from their investments in algorithmics and software has indirectly fed a lot more people.
[09:28:11] <Jacky^> yes..
[09:28:23] <Jacky^> they bought the sky
[09:28:25] <Jacky^> LOL
[09:28:31] <Jacky^> they have a patence
[09:28:58] <anonimasu> Jacky^: I am sure you could implement a opensource dgps firmware..
[09:29:05] <Jacky^> sure
[09:29:19] <Jacky^> as i learned thete 2 words in english
[09:29:28] <Jacky^> all is possible
[09:29:43] <Jacky^> if is free
[09:29:49] <anonimasu> Jacky^: but since you said you copy code off universities, do you write any orginal code?
[09:30:48] <Jacky^> what you mean ?
[09:30:58] <icee> jacky: do you write software yourself?
[09:31:01] <anonimasu> I mean do you develop any orginal algorithms
[09:31:10] <anonimasu> or do you depend on other people to pay for them..
[09:31:15] <Jacky^> icee: sometime, sure
[09:31:22] <anonimasu> Jacky^: even if stuff comes from a university it's been paid for..
[09:31:30] <icee> jacky: and I assume you polish it all nicely up, and document it, and release it all as open source
[09:31:38] <icee> since software should be free, and it's your obligation to do so
[09:31:53] <Jacky^> open source its only a word ..
[09:32:09] <Jacky^> the much important thing is what is under
[09:32:23] <icee> you're dodging the question.
[09:32:34] <anonimasu> ^_^
[09:32:48] <icee> the stuff you write-- do you do the necessary polishing in order to get it to be a nice product that other people can use, and then give it away free yourself?
[09:32:51] <Jacky^> the question make no sense
[09:33:04] <icee> jacky: You're mad at the people at tenable for not doing it anymore-- my question is, do you do it?
[09:33:37] <Jacky^> and ..
[09:34:03] <fenn> * fenn thinks much more free software would get written if the coders spent less time arguing
[09:34:06] <Jacky^> how you know the stuff i write are not interesting for other peolpes ?
[09:34:22] <anonimasu> fenn: that's entirely true
[09:34:30] <icee> jacky: You're saying all software should be free. You write stuff; do you release it free?
[09:34:37] <icee> and do you do the necessary work so it is usable for other people?
[09:34:44] <Jacky^> icee sure
[09:34:51] <icee> jacky: example, please?
[09:35:07] <icee> where's something nontrivial that you've released openly
[09:35:23] <Jacky^> i f you want i can send to you a cdrom
[09:35:34] <icee> nope, it should be up on the net, for all to see
[09:35:35] <Jacky^> with a database i used in the 99
[09:35:45] <icee> it should be FREE, not just available to me by virtue of knowing you
[09:35:48] <Jacky^> in my job
[09:35:59] <Jacky^> and a lot of peoples is using it
[09:36:16] <Jacky^> 18.000 row codes in delphi
[09:36:22] <Jacky^> are you interesting ?
[09:36:37] <icee> jacky: To be honest, you can't understand enough of what I say to have a meaningful conversation
[09:36:46] <Jacky^> i wont
[09:36:57] <icee> I've been trying to ask you the same question for the last dozen lines and it just doesn't work
[09:37:01] <icee> so I'm outta here.
[09:37:02] <Jacky^> i want to release hal for integrator in it for free
[09:37:04] <icee> cya.
[09:37:13] <anonimasu> Jacky^: why dont you?
[09:37:17] <anonimasu> laters icee
[09:37:17] <Jacky^> but for you i will ask $ 1000
[09:37:19] <Jacky^> !!
[09:37:23] <Jacky^> maybe
[09:37:26] <Jacky^> 2000
[09:37:28] <Jacky^> :)
[09:37:38] <Jacky^> just for you ..
[09:37:51] <anonimasu> Jacky^: Why dont you just release it then?
[09:38:02] <Jacky^> anonimasu: working on it ..
[09:38:07] <Jacky^> youll see soon
[09:38:16] <Jacky^> thats not a prob
[09:38:23] <anonimasu> Jacky^: how do you make a living?
[09:38:24] <Jacky^> you should know
[09:38:29] <Jacky^> i'm the peolpe
[09:38:38] <Jacky^> that sended 200 euro
[09:38:46] <Jacky^> in donation to Debian devepolers
[09:38:59] <anonimasu> Jacky^: and why would knowing that interest me?
[09:39:00] <Jacky^> and when i enered here the first time ..
[09:39:09] <Jacky^> i asked for donation ..
[09:39:15] <Jacky^> i0ve the log files
[09:39:22] <Jacky^> if you wont believe me
[09:39:28] <Jacky^> this.. say all
[09:39:40] <Jacky^> you wont understand !
[09:39:45] <icee> and I've donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to things I find worthwhile.
[09:39:53] <Jacky^> you want to do a business with software
[09:39:57] <Jacky^> wrong way
[09:40:32] <fenn> * fenn wonders what everyone needs all this money for anyway
[09:40:53] <Jacky^> fenn: whan i use emc
[09:41:09] <Jacky^> i know all the work the developers has maded
[09:41:15] <Jacky^> im not a stupid..
[09:41:26] <fenn> but, food really isn't that expensive
[09:41:39] <Jacky^> it is ..
[09:41:41] <anonimasu> fenn: food + rent adds up pretty well..
[09:41:44] <Jacky^> not for me
[09:41:49] <Jacky^> ive 12 cats
[09:41:50] <anonimasu> also if you need a car to go to work..
[09:42:09] <Jacky^> i spent up to E. 80 for cat food ..
[09:42:16] <fenn> well.. you need a car to go to work, and need to work to pay for your car...
[09:42:17] <Jacky^> but not for all peoples
[09:42:35] <anonimasu> depends on your car, but it all adds up in the end..
[09:42:46] <fenn> i'm coasting on about $3000 usd/year right now
[09:42:53] <fenn> maybe less
[09:43:11] <anonimasu> I dont think that would be possible here
[09:43:26] <fenn> maybe not
[09:43:44] <K`zan> Enough being the devils advocate tonight :-). Night all catch ya later today.
[09:43:51] <Jacky^> why do not they produce a hydrogen car ?
[09:43:54] <fenn> heh sleep well K`zan
[09:43:55] <Jacky^> eh ?
[09:44:00] <anonimasu> that's about as much as I spend on gas in a year..
[09:44:16] <Jacky^> hehe
[09:44:22] <Jacky^> anonimasu: i'm happy
[09:44:31] <Jacky^> texas need you
[09:44:33] <Jacky^> :D
[09:44:41] <anonimasu> Jacky^: start making sense..
[09:45:02] <anonimasu> although that's only work travel..
[09:45:18] <Jacky^> anonimasu: you cold spent a lot smallest
[09:45:22] <Jacky^> but
[09:45:31] <Jacky^> someone have a big intereting on you
[09:45:37] <Jacky^> you know ?
[09:45:43] <anonimasu> Jacky^: I cant really tell customers that I'll come by bile tomorrow
[09:45:57] <anonimasu> bike..
[09:46:06] <Jacky^> not bike
[09:46:11] <Jacky^> why bike ?
[09:46:18] <Jacky^> i'm talking abot car
[09:46:52] <Jacky^> you know a lot of hydrogen cars have been designed ?
[09:46:57] <Jacky^> ready to use
[09:47:02] <Jacky^> but ..
[09:47:06] <Jacky^> you pay for gas
[09:47:12] <Jacky^> ]:)
[09:47:20] <anonimasu> where do I buy hydrogen in north sweden?
[09:47:28] <Jacky^> everywhere
[09:47:37] <Jacky^> since 1997
[09:47:57] <Jacky^> so.. understand the problem
[09:47:57] <anonimasu> it's 4000km to the closest station.. that'll sell hydrogen..
[09:48:19] <fenn> why is hydrogen better than gasoline?
[09:48:23] <Jacky^> thats why the war is wrong
[09:48:31] <Jacky^> because its an oil war !
[09:48:35] <fenn> ah
[09:48:36] <Jacky^> just for it
[09:48:46] <anonimasu> fenn: because the air becomes cleaner with hydrogen..
[09:48:48] <Jacky^> and we all know ..
[09:49:08] <anonimasu> fenn: but it adds up the same since hydrogen costs more to produce in the same ammount ;)
[09:49:12] <anonimasu> energy wise..
[09:49:13] <Jacky^> oil move the world
[09:49:16] <fenn> Jacky^: you can run a car on partially burned wood
[09:49:23] <fenn> but nobody does it
[09:49:32] <Jacky^> fenn: hydrogen is okay
[09:49:37] <Jacky^> it work
[09:49:46] <anonimasu> well laters..
[09:49:49] <Jacky^> but someone dont wont it ..
[09:49:56] <anonimasu> I need to have lunch
[09:50:03] <anonimasu> and do some work :)
[09:50:13] <fenn> "work work work" that's all they say around here :)
[09:50:30] <Jacky^> yes, work !
[09:51:54] <Jacky^> you know how many medicines we have in IT ?
[09:51:59] <Jacky^> about 35k
[09:52:06] <fenn> doctors?
[09:52:18] <Jacky^> you know how many are needed ?
[09:52:21] <Jacky^> 3k
[09:52:25] <Jacky^> :)
[09:52:30] <Jacky^> think about ..
[09:52:53] <fenn> i bet there are quite a few policemen, lawyers, bean counters and paper-pushers that aren't needed either
[09:53:18] <fenn> shrug
[09:54:25] <fenn> i gave up on earth a while ago
[09:54:53] <fenn> i mean, i no longer plan my life according to the rules of modern society
[09:54:58] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ nods
[09:55:49] <fenn> i feel that most of the subsidized, unnecessary professions will die off naturally once things get rough again
[09:56:16] <fenn> i'd like to meet that head-on by going into space, which is about as rough as it gets
[09:56:28] <fenn> rather than waiting around for things to get rough here on earth
[09:57:14] <fenn> but i have to deal with my fundamental weaknesses and delusions..
[09:57:48] <fenn> living a life with no compromises is hard
[09:57:58] <Jacky^> but right
[09:58:03] <fenn> yes
[09:58:16] <fenn> but nobody ever tells you that you're doing the right thing
[09:59:05] <Jacky^> i know..
[09:59:18] <fenn> i wish that we could come together somehow, in a way that is more meaningful than the internet
[09:59:35] <fenn> there are so few people willing to work for no pay
[09:59:42] <fenn> on things that really mean something
[10:00:33] <fenn> if a whole bunch of devoted, intelligent people could come together to work on a project that has lasting impact on the entire human race..
[10:00:46] <fenn> well, it would be something
[10:00:56] <Jacky^> yeah
[10:01:28] <fenn> linux is pretty amazing, but it is only bits of information
[10:02:08] <Jacky^> its a good start point..
[10:02:40] <fenn> yeah we've learned a lot about self-organizing teamwork by working on linux
[10:10:42] <fenn> i've recently gotten involved in a community metal shop
[10:11:08] <fenn> members will pay about $12 per month for access to woodworking, machining, and welding tools
[10:11:18] <fenn> only problem is we gotta build it first :)
[10:11:26] <Jacky^> hehe
[10:11:45] <fenn> but we own the land already.. it's coming along really fast
[10:12:05] <Jacky^> good
[10:12:29] <fenn> i am always on the wrong time zone.. staying up until 6 am and waking up at 4 pm
[10:12:41] <fenn> so i've missed all of the work days so far
[10:13:37] <fenn> i think a big problem will be getting the building approved by the city planning board
[10:13:49] <fenn> there are so many stupid building codes that have to be followed
[10:14:20] <fenn> i think it would be better to just build it how we want it, and then fix whatever they notice is wrong
[10:14:52] <Jacky^> yeah, good idea
[10:15:00] <fenn> my house has been under inspection by the city for 8 months now
[10:15:09] <fenn> i'm about ready to blow some stuff up
[10:15:21] <fenn> my room is bare concrete
[10:15:24] <fenn> i sleep in a tent in the back yard
[10:15:32] <Jacky^> :\
[10:15:42] <fenn> there are mattresses all over my shop!
[10:15:49] <fenn> grr!
[10:16:09] <Jacky^> hope youll solve soon
[10:16:24] <fenn> either that or i'll run away to the woods
[10:16:42] <fenn> it's still up in the air
[10:16:54] <Jacky^> mm
[10:17:17] <fenn> no wonder i can't get anything done, eh?
[10:17:30] <Jacky^> no idea..
[10:17:32] <fenn> still haven't used my new lathe
[10:17:55] <fenn> well.. enough whining for tonight at least
[10:18:02] <Jacky^> :)
[10:18:41] <fenn> are there any like-minded people in your home town?
[10:19:10] <Jacky^> here its small city
[10:19:20] <Jacky^> about 18k peoples
[10:19:39] <Jacky^> but its a nice place, only 200 mt from sea
[10:20:00] <Jacky^> there are strange peoples here too ..
[10:21:18] <fenn> i just found this page.. pictures from where i live:
http://rick.oacea.com/index.php?category=events&name=july4-02
[10:21:29] <fenn> i know most of the people in the pictures
[10:22:23] <Jacky^> nice :)
[10:27:03] <Jacky^> must go ..
[10:27:05] <Jacky^> later
[14:31:13] <les> morning and afternoonall
[14:37:59] <cncuser> hi :)
[14:38:51] <cncuser> i am having proiblems with the unloading of the realtime modules and the emc.run skript after launching it via rox-filer and not from shellprompt
[14:39:13] <cncuser> the app doesnt catch a ^c and so doesnot do the Cleanup function
[14:42:56] <cncuser> any hints on how i can force the (fast) unload and killing of all emc2 parts ?
[16:10:50] <anonimasu> hello
[17:59:50] <Jymmm> yo
[18:07:26] <Jymmm> yo
[18:08:00] <Jacky^> hey
[18:09:29] <Jacky^> Jymmm: ...
[18:10:05] <Jacky^> do you know how to get an inlay like that:
http://criscri.supereva.it/SCATOLA%20INTARSIO.jpg
[18:10:19] <Jacky^> it is driving me crazy :\
[18:10:31] <Jacky^> not the photos, just the box
[18:10:37] <Jymmm> Jacky^: Yes, bloos, sweat, and tears.
[18:10:42] <Jymmm> blood
[18:11:00] <Jacky^> nice eh ?
[18:11:03] <Jacky^> :D
[18:11:26] <Jymmm> yes, but too dark for my taste. I'd like to see more contrast.
[18:11:54] <Jacky^> some cad/cam has inlay features
[18:12:04] <Jacky^> it shoud be not difficult ..
[18:12:15] <Jacky^> it seem.. :(
[18:13:51] <Jacky^> ive 3 type of wood here
[18:14:04] <Jacky^> one is clean
[18:14:11] <Jacky^> another is black !
[18:14:15] <Jacky^> cool black
[18:14:32] <Jacky^> and another goes to red color
[18:15:27] <Jacky^> the difficult i found is in the rounded borde
[18:15:51] <Jacky^> r
[18:18:28] <Jymmm> haven't gotten there yet myself =)
[18:18:49] <Jacky^> :-)
[19:26:10] <anonimasu> ,,
[19:27:05] <Jymmm> Can SSR (Solid State Relays) be driven directly from the paraport?
[19:27:26] <anonimasu> that depends on the current draw..
[19:27:45] <Jacky^> with a transistor sure
[19:27:50] <Jacky^> why not ?
[19:28:03] <Jacky^> Jymmm: take the amp meter
[19:28:07] <Jacky^> :)
[19:28:09] <Jymmm> 23mA
[19:28:14] <Jacky^> uhaa
[19:28:16] <Jacky^> yes
[19:28:31] <Jacky^> a small transitor could be nice
[19:29:05] <cradek> most parallel ports can't do 23mA.
[19:29:28] <Jymmm> what about using a hex inverter?
[19:29:33] <Jacky^> NPN Transistor: BC547A or 2N2222A
[19:29:39] <Jacky^> Jymmm:
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/parallel_output.html
[19:29:44] <Jacky^> its simple
[19:29:44] <Jymmm> Jacky^ I dont want to use Q's
[19:29:52] <Jacky^> why not ?
[19:29:56] <anonimasu> Jymmm: buy optocouplers..
[19:30:10] <anonimasu> and hook your relays up by them..
[19:30:16] <anonimasu> although the pricetag is probably wrong
[19:30:52] <Jymmm> what about a hex inverter?
[19:31:03] <anonimasu> never heard about htat..
[19:31:19] <cradek> I think most logic families can drive LEDs directly, so maybe you can get away with this
[19:31:59] <Jacky^> The circuit show below describes how to control a solid state relay from PC parallel port. The solid state relay controls the mains voltage.
[19:32:08] <Jacky^> Jymmm: take a look
[19:33:36] <Jymmm> Jacky^ I do NOT want to use a transisor.
[19:33:53] <Jacky^> Jymmm: understood.. sorry
[19:33:57] <anonimasu> use optocouplers?
[19:34:05] <Jymmm> Now, this is interesting... ULN203
[19:34:08] <anonimasu> or opamps..
[19:34:21] <Jacky^> uln2003 ?
[19:34:33] <Jymmm> http://www.allegromicro.com/sf/2801/
[19:34:33] <cradek> Jymmm: do you mean you don't want to use a TO-3 or similar package?
[19:34:34] <Jacky^> darlington
[19:34:41] <cradek> there are lots of transistor arrays in DIP or SMD
[19:34:54] <anonimasu> ah well, look inside of it and you'll find transistors ;)
[19:34:59] <cradek> yeah
[19:35:02] <K`zan> Morning all.
[19:35:02] <Jymmm> cradek: correct. I'd like to have multiple channels available
[19:35:26] <anonimasu> the uln chips works good
[19:36:45] <Jymmm> it be awesome if I could find the uln in a opto configuration
[19:37:33] <Jymmm> oh hell... being doscontinued
[19:37:47] <anonimasu> that means there are better stuff out there
[19:38:36] <Jymmm> yeah, I'll just have to give them a call to see what the replacement is
[19:38:56] <anonimasu> uln2005 ;)
[19:39:13] <Jymmm> do they make opto's in a dip pkg where there's more than one per pkg?
[19:40:07] <anonimasu> most likely yes
[19:43:09] <Jymmm> not bad... $0.65/ea in single qty - different brand ST Micro Electronics
[19:44:19] <Jymmm> search newark.com for 07WX8336 (their P/N)
[19:44:59] <Jymmm> thanks folks!
[19:45:33] <Jymmm> can parallel outputs for more current - cool
[19:45:51] <Jymmm> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/1536.pdf
[19:59:29] <jepler> the ULNs are cool, but who wants a unipolar drive?
[20:01:25] <icee> hmmm
[20:01:26] <icee> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005101204392786&item=10-2210&catname=
[20:01:28] <icee> cheep cheep.
[20:02:06] <cradek> ooh
[20:02:08] <cradek> and local too
[20:02:36] <cradek> with encoder
[20:02:43] <icee> and brake, yah.
[20:02:49] <icee> seems too good to be true
[20:03:19] <anonimasu> hey
[20:03:21] <cradek> I trust them, I've been there lots of times
[20:04:00] <jepler> what makes a servo "AC"?
[20:04:41] <jepler> (I'm sure that's a dumb question)
[20:04:47] <cradek> not to me
[20:05:21] <cradek> I also want to know how do you drive these
[20:05:32] <cradek> * cradek looks around for les
[20:05:43] <jepler> you should buy a half dozen of them right now, then sort out the details
[20:05:57] <jepler> http://www.electricmotors.machinedesign.com/guiEdits/Content/bdeee4a/bdeee4a_3.aspx
[20:07:31] <icee> jepler: I believe it's the shape of the waveform of the back EMF
[20:07:35] <icee> that's one thing I need to look into
[20:16:44] <anonimasu> jepler: brushes ;)
[20:25:31] <les> I'm here chris
[20:25:40] <cradek> hi les
[20:25:44] <les> hey
[20:26:04] <cradek> I understand that you drive an AC servo with an analog signal and you get feedback by the computer reading a counter run by the encoder
[20:26:09] <les> reading back
[20:26:22] <cradek> what I don't know is what the signal looks like that actually drives the motor
[20:26:30] <cradek> is it pwm? ac? dc?
[20:27:02] <les> The definition varies depending on the manufacturer
[20:27:10] <cradek> say the machine commands .5 - what does the motor see?
[20:27:41] <les> in some cases it is a 3 phase induction motor driven by a pwm sinusoidal 3 phase signal
[20:27:48] <les> of course those slip
[20:28:23] <cradek> this motor says: AC brushless servo motor ... synchronous motor ... permanent magnet rotor, wound stator
[20:28:23] <les> in others it is more like just elecronic commutation
[20:28:37] <les> ok hmm
[20:28:57] <les> I would say that is basically a glorified stepper
[20:29:14] <les> a stepper can certainly be an "ac servo"
[20:29:30] <cradek> ok
[20:29:35] <les> got a link?
[20:29:40] <cradek> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005101204392786&item=10-2210&catname=
[20:29:49] <les> looking
[20:31:21] <cradek> I'm just wondering what the simplest possible driver for a motor like this would be
[20:32:09] <les> ok .got it. That is simply a 3 phase syncronous motor. Not unlike a "slow syn" or some steppers
[20:32:09] <Jymmm> ok, how thick are they? Available stock thickness 4/4 5/4 6/4 8/4 12/4 16/4 random widths and random lengths rough stock
[20:32:38] <les> Drivers are always problematic because of the myriad of feedback techniques
[20:32:42] <les> let's see...
[20:33:00] <cradek> so it has three coils, and you give it sine waves of 120 degree phases
[20:33:37] <les> I think.
[20:33:45] <les> "built in encoder"
[20:33:46] <les> hmm
[20:33:50] <cradek> that sounds ... not so simple
[20:33:55] <les> that could be anything
[20:34:00] <anonimasu> :)
[20:34:47] <les> Chris you will have to find a manufacturer's data sheet on it. There is insufficient data there to tell how to use it.
[20:35:13] <cradek> looking...
[20:35:18] <les> k
[20:36:31] <les> price is real good...i'll say that
[20:36:42] <cradek> Surplus Center is here in Lincoln
[20:37:00] <les> yeah I buy from them
[20:37:55] <Jymmm> les what you think of Pressure Sensitive Veneer - (Peel N' Stick)
[20:37:56] <cradek> All of the P3 motors can operate to 4500 r.p.m., include a built-in 2000 line "wire-saving" optical encoder
[20:38:31] <cradek> The compact and medium-inertia P5 brushless servo motors are available in two sizes: the 200 watt size with NEMA 23 mounting and the 1kW size with NEMA 34 mounting. All P5 motors can operate to 4500 r.p.m., include a built-in 2000 line "wire-saving" optical encoder, and have optional 24 VDC spring-set holding brakes. The P5 motors have connectorized leadwires, shaft seals, and an IP-55 environmental rating.
[20:38:34] <les> well that is a P5
[20:38:50] <cradek> huh, they could be a bolt-in replacement for the NEMA23 steppers on my mill
[20:39:35] <les> sounds like a high frequency vfd with encoder feedback and pi or pid loop would be in order
[20:39:47] <jepler> "vfd"?
[20:39:54] <icee> hey les
[20:39:55] <jepler> vacuum-fluorescent?
[20:40:01] <les> variable frequency drive
[20:40:16] <Jymmm> Variable Frequency Drive aka Speed Control
[20:40:20] <les> yeah vacuum flourescent too;)
[20:40:54] <les> heh I just ordered one yesterday...a mere $620
[20:41:05] <Jymmm> for a light bulb?
[20:41:16] <Jymmm> can you say SUCKER!
[20:41:31] <les> haw for a colombo.....
[20:41:36] <jepler> if you can read japanese ..
http://sanyodb.colle.co.jp/pdf/seihin/p5motors_j.pdf
[20:41:53] <icee> oh, awesome
[20:42:03] <Jymmm> les : =)
[20:42:20] <icee> i -can- read japanese, very slowly, with a kanji dictionary
[20:43:08] <les> heh
[20:43:20] <Jymmm> * Jymmm can too.... Toyota, Nissan, MITSUBISHI, Hyunda, etc
[20:43:37] <icee> though most of the units are in the latin alphabet there, so it's not so bad
[20:43:44] <les> better google "driver sanyo denki P5"
[20:44:30] <icee> wow, this pdf renders majorly slow on my machine.
[20:45:05] <les> hmm
[20:45:12] <les> bingo on the search
[20:45:17] <icee> time to print it and go see
[20:45:34] <les> ok looks like we have a cheap motor expensive driver thing here
[20:45:57] <les> oh well better that expensive motor expensive driver
[20:46:39] <cradek> les: thanks for your help
[20:46:41] <icee> well, I can build a driver *shrug*
[20:46:56] <Jacky^> how much expensive ?
[20:46:57] <les> http://www.motiononline.com/home.htm?overview_pv_sercos.htm&2
[20:47:05] <les> yw cradek
[20:47:08] <Jacky^> double of dc servos drive ?
[20:47:24] <les> probably...at least
[20:47:36] <Jacky^> mmm
[20:47:44] <les> but they are nice motors
[20:47:50] <Jacky^> yeah
[20:49:12] <icee> hmm. this data sheet doesn't cover the 1KW one
[20:49:34] <anonimasu> what pricerange?
[20:49:39] <icee> or i'm not seeing it
[20:49:42] <icee> anon: $40
[20:49:56] <anonimasu> ice what wattage?
[20:50:18] <Jacky^> 1k
[20:50:29] <Jacky^> 21:14 < icee> hmm. this data sheet doesn't cover the 1KW one
[20:50:31] <Jacky^> :)
[20:50:43] <Jymmm> 42 GIGAWATTS FOR YOUR LISTENING PLEASURE
[20:51:22] <Jacky^> who need to work on metal.. hard metal !
[20:51:48] <etla> Hi all, what's up ?
[20:51:54] <anonimasu> icee:where do you see the price of thoose?
[20:52:18] <jepler> anonimasu:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005101204392786&item=10-2210&catname=
[20:53:38] <anonimasu> argh
[20:54:05] <etla> what kind of servo amps can drive those ?
[20:54:07] <Jymmm> anonimasu (in heavy accent) "COME to America my friend!"
[20:54:10] <Jacky^> i'd buy 5-6 at that price ..
[20:54:23] <Jacky^> at least you have some other to change in case..
[20:54:31] <anonimasu> hm, now if I could just fix some shipping of thoose..
[20:54:43] <icee> anon: the downside is they're tricky to drive
[20:54:48] <cradek> anonimasu: call them and ask. They ship a lot.
[20:54:51] <anonimasu> icee: AC servos?
[20:54:59] <Jymmm> anonimasu : CNC boat a la gps
[20:54:59] <anonimasu> icee: as far as I know jon elson makes ac drives..
[20:55:00] <icee> anon: well, in comparison to DC servos *shrug*
[20:55:29] <cradek> but they're brushless - surely that's worth something extra
[20:55:53] <icee> yah.. extra complexity ;)
[20:55:58] <anonimasu> have you checked the prices of AC drives/servos?
[20:55:58] <anonimasu> heh
[20:57:01] <etla> if the drives are $1000 then it's another story...
[20:57:14] <anonimasu> they might be..
[20:57:21] <anonimasu> but, the servos are more like 3000$
[20:57:21] <anonimasu> ;)
[20:57:28] <Jymmm> even if they were $1000
[20:57:39] <etla> how the hell are those guys selling them for $40 then ??
[20:57:45] <anonimasu> etla: surplus..
[20:57:51] <Jymmm> etla : stolen
[20:57:53] <icee> etla: they "fell off a truck"
[20:59:03] <etla> hmmm
[20:59:19] <cradek> they are not thieves - they have been here for many years
[20:59:52] <Jacky^> anyway the price seem not to be a 'lot cheper' ..
[20:59:57] <Jacky^> http://cgi.ebay.it/SERVO-MOTOR-PANASONIC-AC-100W-WITH-ENCODER_W0QQitemZ7552028986QQcategoryZ71400QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[21:00:21] <Jacky^> just $ 30 -
[21:00:25] <icee> there's helpful data here:
[21:00:25] <icee> http://automation.lonne.com/download/cat/sanyo/P%20series%20motor%20catalog.pdf
[21:00:48] <Jacky^> ops .. nope
[21:00:50] <Jacky^> sorry
[21:00:53] <icee> cradek: i'm kidding :P
[21:00:53] <Jacky^> thats 100 w
[21:00:54] <Jacky^> lol
[21:00:54] <anonimasu> I dropped them a mail..
[21:01:18] <anonimasu> about shippinghere..
[21:01:30] <etla> europe ?
[21:01:34] <anonimasu> north sweden..
[21:01:43] <Jymmm> in anonimasu's case... BFE
[21:01:45] <icee> P50 -- 5 series, B == servo, 08 == 86mm flange, 100 = 1kW output, V == (maximum rotating speed.. nto in this data sheet)
[21:01:51] <anonimasu> Jymmm: ?
[21:01:54] <cradek> anonimasu: I'll send them to you if you send me some of your chocolate or coffee or whatever's good up there
[21:01:56] <Jymmm> lol
[21:02:14] <icee> c = 24VDC break, S = wiring saving incremental 2000 P/R encoder
[21:02:14] <Jacky^> send to all :P
[21:02:22] <Jymmm> cradek motors for chocolate dipped females?
[21:02:24] <icee> brake.
[21:02:27] <anonimasu> cradek: I am going to check this first ;)
[21:02:33] <anonimasu> but that would be nice
[21:02:37] <cradek> anonimasu: deal
[21:02:47] <cradek> anonimasu: they are only across town from me
[21:02:52] <anonimasu> nice :)
[21:03:08] <anonimasu> I wonder if thoose require special drives or if a normal AC drive will run them
[21:03:36] <Jacky^> normal .. 1kw ?
[21:03:53] <anonimasu> ah I am not buying 1kw ones ;)
[21:03:55] <Jacky^> looks not much normal to me
[21:03:57] <cradek> huh, they opened that store in 1953
[21:05:14] <anonimasu> thoose 400w would be perfect
[21:06:36] <Jacky^> but i think at that price would be nice to try ..
[21:06:50] <Jacky^> they can be re-selled on ebay, eventually
[21:07:01] <Jacky^> it should be not hard
[21:07:55] <etla> googled for a drive:
http://www.copleycontrols.com/motion/downloads/pdf/Xenus-DataSheet.pdf
[21:08:01] <anonimasu> hm, if I could find compatible drives I'd buy 4 servos now..
[21:08:10] <etla> from $766 depending on model...
[21:08:11] <anonimasu> thoose sell lots on ebay
[21:08:22] <anonimasu> galil..
[21:08:35] <icee> the 'reduced wire encoder' makes me think a normal drive won't
[21:08:47] <les> I was looking at the P5 pdf that icce linked
[21:09:08] <les> seems very nice...very high performance
[21:09:35] <anonimasu> les: do you have a idea about how to drive thoose?
[21:09:55] <icee> i don't know what the 'v' means in the model number though, which is worrisome
[21:09:56] <les> yeah. buy the proprietary unit.
[21:10:22] <anonimasu> les: heh..
[21:10:51] <anonimasu> that's not a good way to do it
[21:11:20] <Jacky^> anyone know some good link for DC servos 250 W at $ 39 ? :PPP
[21:11:47] <Jacky^> i'm not intereting in all that power
[21:12:07] <les> They could probably be made to run as a velocity system with a very high frequency vfd and some additional control circuitry
[21:12:28] <icee> the question is 'what is this reduced wire encoder stuff'
[21:13:06] <les> srial interface? who knows
[21:13:11] <les> serial
[21:13:18] <anonimasu> brb
[21:13:19] <anonimasu> kiosk
[21:13:47] <les> normal dif incremental encoder is 8 wires
[21:14:13] <icee> the incremental encoder is A, A_, B, B_, C, C_, E5V, SG, and SEN
[21:14:14] <Jacky^> icee: the encoder would not be a big prob i think
[21:14:31] <icee> according to the wiring diagram
[21:14:34] <icee> that looks normal, right?
[21:14:35] <anonimasu> the drive is more of a problem
[21:14:41] <Jacky^> you can find a chepaer encoder than mount on the screw too ..
[21:15:01] <anonimasu> if you have large servos you can direct drive, and have the encoder on the screw..
[21:15:07] <icee> yah.. i'd like to use the existing stack if possible tho
[21:16:19] <Jacky^> in some case the encoder resolution can be scalable from driver too
[21:16:29] <icee> not for real resolution, but for very good/quick responding velocity measurement
[21:17:32] <les> for emc servo update is a limiting issue
[21:17:59] <les> we could use a bit more oomph in that department.
[21:18:29] <etla> what is the update rate with a typical pci servo card ?
[21:18:29] <icee> les: rtai really sucks :(
[21:18:56] <les> many are pushing 10k....
[21:19:08] <les> we max out at around 2k
[21:19:57] <les> it's fast enoughfor a bridgeport...but a little marginal for HSM
[21:20:19] <icee> yah.. 2k is plenty for anything i'd do
[21:20:28] <etla> you'd think with ever faster processors that it would get better ??
[21:20:31] <les> wish I could say that...
[21:20:42] <les> etla: no
[21:20:50] <etla> why ?
[21:21:20] <icee> this stuff should benefit from multiprocessor well, right? or dualcore
[21:21:33] <icee> don't know how well RTAI behaves with SMP..
[21:21:48] <les> because we are trying to do hard real time in a general purpose processor that increasingly relies on statistical methods (like caches) for speed
[21:22:12] <icee> les: well, real RTOS's for x86 do very well
[21:22:36] <icee> e.g. qnx
[21:22:38] <etla> any other alternative hardware platforms out there (affordable) ?
[21:23:00] <etla> qnx: free, opensource ?
[21:23:16] <icee> etla: You used to be able to get it for free for your own use, but EMC (afaik) doesn't run under it
[21:23:16] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ grrrr
[21:23:30] <les> I have a dsp based one here that is 90 microsecond update
[21:24:01] <etla> that has a g-code interpreter with lookahead etc etc ?
[21:24:24] <les> part of it. emc even. But is is not cheap.
[21:24:35] <icee> les: qnx can do 20-35 microsecond task switches on 2GHz machines
[21:24:36] <les> and not finished either
[21:24:41] <les> not the software
[21:25:34] <les> icee, I am told the messaging is really hurting emc update rate. I possibly could be improved some.
[21:26:02] <icee> i'm pretty surprised by how flaky emc is, etc
[21:26:06] <les> Not as good as some hot dsps...but perhaps better.
[21:26:10] <icee> about 1 out of 10 times i run it it crashes the machine
[21:26:25] <icee> a general purpose machine ought to be able to outperform TMS320F2812, etc
[21:26:27] <icee> I've developed for both.
[21:26:36] <icee> that is, with good output hardware.
[21:26:53] <les> Well, I use emc1, because I cannot experiment on a big, fast , dangerous production machine.
[21:27:00] <les> It is very stable.
[21:27:15] <icee> les: well, I have some kind of race condition on BDI 4.30
[21:27:27] <icee> though I am running axis
[21:27:32] <les> this is the card I have here:
[21:28:57] <les> http://www.dynomotion.com/Help/
[21:32:34] <les> uses the emc interpreter.
[21:33:14] <etla> so it has lookahead ?
[21:33:36] <les> it does, but it is crude.
[21:33:53] <les> It is a motion card, but not yet a machine control.
[21:33:59] <les> It could be.
[21:34:56] <les> I am talking with the designer a good bit.
[21:35:26] <les> however this is not open source...so of limited use for us.
[21:35:51] <icee> I'd be willing to participate in the development of a motion card here
[21:36:22] <cradek> if your machine crashes 1 out of 10 times, you may have a bogus machine
[21:36:28] <icee> the only thing that's unfortunate is that a lot of the motor control DSPs are in unfriendly surface mount packages
[21:36:38] <jepler> icee: axis runs in userspace, just like all the other front ends. It shouldn't be able to cause race conditions that don't exist under the others too.
[21:36:46] <icee> cradek: I've extensively memtest86'd it
[21:36:49] <les> well, the motion cards are out there and not expensive.
[21:36:50] <icee> So I think it's some kind of race.
[21:37:01] <cradek> icee: well, then that's only one thing that you tested
[21:37:17] <icee> cradek: I've compiled a lot of software, etc, without undue crashes on it, too.
[21:37:22] <les> what is expensive is writing a cnc motion control application.
[21:37:24] <jepler> only due crashes?
[21:37:25] <les> man years
[21:37:32] <etla> wasn't there an effort by geckodrive to do an openshardware motion card ?
[21:37:36] <icee> jepler: ;) no build failures that weren't my fault
[21:37:46] <les> etla: yes
[21:37:46] <icee> no sigsegvs or sigbuses going around
[21:37:53] <etla> any good ?
[21:38:09] <jepler> icee: what exactly happens while you're running emc?
[21:38:16] <icee> cradek: and it always crashes at the exact same spot in startup. about 1 second after the splash disappears
[21:38:17] <les> I'm following it. Has some promise.
[21:38:25] <jepler> since axis is userspace, stuff like hard lockups, X server crashes, etc., can't be due to axis bugs
[21:38:40] <icee> jepler: no, but axis can provoke bugs in the hard realtime parts
[21:39:18] <jepler> though yesterday in one test I saw axis crash at startup in a particularly implausible way
[21:39:38] <icee> so I drag the mouse around during that time, and if the mouse stops for more than a couple seconds, i know it's crashed
[21:39:55] <cradek> icee: my mouse always pauses when the rt modules insert
[21:39:57] <jepler> (the front end crashed, the PC continued working just fine)
[21:39:57] <icee> once it starts up, etc, it's bulletproof
[21:40:08] <icee> cradek: yah, well, it doesn't recover from this
[21:40:17] <icee> i gave it a couple minutes
[21:40:40] <cradek> this is the emc that comes with bdi 4.30?
[21:41:00] <icee> cradek: yes. But I built axis rc1
[21:41:23] <jepler> cradek: yesterday, did I show you that emc crashed once at startup with 'division by zero' at one of the places we just started dividing by the SCALE?
[21:41:26] <cradek> icee: I'm pretty sure you will find axis is a red herring. Switch to a different UI to be sure.
[21:41:41] <icee> cradek: I'm not saying it's an axis bug
[21:41:42] <cradek> jepler: nope
[21:41:48] <icee> just that i'm unable to reproduce with the other UIs
[21:41:57] <cradek> icee: oh really, interesting
[21:42:20] <icee> heavy network traffic at startup seems to be able to make it bork reliably, btw
[21:42:34] <icee> like if i'm wgetting a big file in the background
[21:42:37] <jepler> er, where I divided by linear_units
[21:43:10] <etla> anyone know a good tutorial on tuning emc ? (using parport/freqmod/steppers)
[21:43:29] <cradek> icee: that's an interesting clue
[21:43:48] <icee> cradek: there are some other things.. like I have the nvidia X server/kernel modules installed
[21:43:56] <icee> not sure if it crashed before I did that
[21:43:58] <jepler> AXIS would be the only program to use opengl
[21:44:06] <cradek> the nvidia modules DO NOT work with realtime
[21:44:08] <jepler> try having "glxgears" running and start emc with one of the other front ends
[21:44:18] <cradek> it's well known to not work
[21:44:34] <jepler> cradek: maybe that's changed since kernel 2.4?
[21:44:42] <icee> bah
[21:44:46] <icee> axis redraws so slow without them
[21:45:11] <cradek> icee: try without for a while, I bet you a dollar/euro that's the problem
[21:45:27] <jepler> or *one of* the problems, since disk activity makes it works?
[21:45:30] <jepler> er, worse
[21:45:36] <cradek> yeah
[21:45:47] <cradek> disk or network, sounds like
[21:45:54] <cradek> probably "lots of interrupts"
[21:45:58] <icee> i don't know about disk. network, definitely tho.
[21:46:34] <K`zan> ifconfig ethn down (while running emc) ?
[21:47:07] <icee> kz: it only happens during startup.. so right now i've just been risking it
[21:47:16] <cradek> icee:
https://mail.rtai.org/pipermail/rtai/2005-July/012468.html
[21:47:18] <icee> once it actually starts up, it's bulletproof
[21:47:43] <icee> cradek: that just says latency tests flunk in rtai
[21:47:54] <K`zan> emc or the front end?
[21:48:10] <icee> i get good numbers on the rtai latency tests
[21:48:23] <icee> kz: when I start EMC, the machine dies about 1/10 times before the front end appears
[21:48:24] <cradek> icee: with a gl app running?
[21:48:36] <icee> cradek: I can test that
[21:57:00] <anonimasu> hm
[21:57:05] <anonimasu> they will ship internationally
[21:57:24] <cradek> cool
[21:57:44] <anonimasu> but, unless I know what drives that will run thoose it's not a optino
[21:57:46] <anonimasu> option
[21:57:47] <anonimasu> :)
[21:58:15] <etla> build the drives yourself :)
[21:58:16] <cradek> wish they had drives for $40 too
[21:58:22] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:58:34] <anonimasu> etla: I dont have time
[21:59:00] <etla> then just buy a VMC from Haas or something :)
[21:59:34] <anonimasu> heh..
[21:59:52] <anonimasu> I have enough money to buy drives, just not at the sanyo pricing ;)
[22:15:24] <alex_joni> evening
[22:15:34] <cradek> hello
[22:16:01] <Jacky^> hi alex_joni
[22:28:29] <alex_joni> what's up?
[22:28:46] <Jacky^> looking, searching ..
[22:29:04] <alex_joni> hmmm.. let me guess .. software fundings?
[22:29:05] <etla> writing to emc-users about my problems...
[22:29:06] <Jacky^> found some nice ballscrew on ebay ..
[22:29:15] <Jacky^> but singapore , doh
[22:29:40] <alex_joni> get some open-source ballscrews
[22:29:45] <alex_joni> those are cheaper
[22:29:46] <alex_joni> :D
[22:29:54] <Jacky^> how much ?
[22:30:04] <Jacky^> you made ballscrew ?
[22:30:28] <Jacky^> :\
[22:30:48] <alex_joni> screw the balls
[22:30:50] <Jacky^> http://cgi.ebay.it/THK-ballscrew-dia-20-lead-5mm-for-CNC-desk-mill-lathe_W0QQitemZ7552276701QQcategoryZ50924QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[22:31:07] <Jacky^> i will buy form abba
[22:31:23] <Jacky^> but this thk seem to me very nice
[22:31:36] <alex_joni> abba is great
[22:31:42] <alex_joni> they had some very nice hits
[22:31:57] <Jacky^> thats ok .. but the shipping..
[22:32:08] <alex_joni> like.. waterloo
[22:32:16] <alex_joni> and "money money money"
[22:32:28] <Jacky^> im following les suggestions
[22:32:38] <Jacky^> ive not much alternatives
[22:32:45] <Jacky^> abba, or hiwin
[22:33:15] <Jacky^> im waiting for gecko quotes too ..
[22:33:22] <Jacky^> 2 days mmm :(
[22:33:30] <alex_joni> * alex_joni suggests : CHIQUITITA, FERNANDO, THANK YOU FOR THE MUSIC
[22:33:43] <Jacky^> :P
[22:34:30] <Jacky^> i hope to have all for the end of mounth
[22:35:00] <Jacky^> so i can start building in november ..
[22:35:46] <etla> what kind of machine ?
[22:36:13] <Jacky^> etla: an evil machine
[22:36:17] <Jacky^> a monster :)
[22:36:29] <Jacky^> 1x1 m wood cnc machine
[22:36:41] <Jacky^> have you seen my machine ?
[22:36:49] <etla> no, you have pics ?
[22:36:51] <Jacky^> i build in may 2005 ..
[22:36:56] <Jacky^> yes, a moment
[22:38:18] <alex_joni> bye guys
[22:38:43] <Jacky^> etla:
http://www.roboitalia.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=75
[22:39:04] <Jacky^> is like that
[22:39:10] <Jacky^> but the mine is here:
[22:39:51] <Jacky^> http://www.roboitalia.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=158&pos=3
[22:40:02] <Jacky^> i also builded a box .. LOL
[22:40:04] <Jacky^> :D
[22:40:42] <etla> and you want a new one already ?
[22:40:55] <Jacky^> i want a good machine
[22:41:02] <Jacky^> that you seen its a toy
[22:41:05] <Jacky^> really
[22:41:10] <etla> all metal with servos ?
[22:41:19] <Jacky^> yes
[22:41:29] <Jacky^> faaaast
[22:41:53] <Jacky^> i spent about E. 100 to build that i catually have
[22:42:02] <Jacky^> burned 2-3 drivers
[22:42:16] <Jacky^> burned 15-20 IC l297-8
[22:42:25] <Jacky^> burned about 5-6 bit ..
[22:42:42] <Jacky^> so.. i learned enough in few mouths :)
[22:42:54] <etla> hmmm
[22:43:01] <Jacky^> yeah
[22:43:07] <Jacky^> but it was funny
[22:43:10] <etla> I have been using geckos and never burned anything
[22:43:11] <Jacky^> :D
[22:43:25] <Jacky^> i started using l297
[22:43:37] <Jacky^> building the board from myself
[22:43:53] <Jacky^> optoisolator parport circuit too
[22:44:08] <Jacky^> you can found the schematics in the website
[22:44:09] <etla> geckos with microstepping will be smoother but you need a higher pulse freq to get speed
[22:44:32] <Jacky^> i will use G340
[22:44:39] <Jacky^> are enough
[22:44:48] <etla> what DC servos ?
[22:44:54] <Jacky^> yeah
[22:45:09] <Jacky^> done with the steppers
[22:45:23] <Jacky^> i will help my cousin now with the stepper
[22:45:26] <etla> what model DV servos ? from where and cost ?
[22:45:33] <Jacky^> he want to build a plasma cutter
[22:45:44] <etla> I'm asking because I have G340's sitting in the box but no servos
[22:45:54] <Jacky^> and i need his help with lathe and maechanical building
[22:46:15] <Jacky^> etla: ive not starting to ask about servos ..
[22:46:29] <Jacky^> im tryng to look for used
[22:46:45] <etla> OK
[22:46:46] <Jacky^> i will ask in italy, in Torin
[22:46:56] <Jacky^> i need 250w dc motor
[22:47:13] <anonimasu> hm
[22:47:30] <Jacky^> and
[22:47:37] <Jacky^> ive some motor too here
[22:47:54] <Jacky^> biggest .. i need to try it when ill receive the driver
[22:47:55] <anonimasu> g340's work great ;)
[22:48:01] <Jacky^> ive no datasheet
[22:48:22] <Jacky^> anonimasu: it seem
[22:48:27] <Jacky^> so
[22:49:03] <Jacky^> etla: are you thinking to seel your drivers ? :P
[22:49:38] <etla> if I don't find some cheap servos I might sell them.
[22:50:26] <anonimasu> etla: you can use DC motors with encoders..
[22:50:28] <Jacky^> id you the first dc motor i encountered , instead
[22:50:32] <Jacky^> right
[22:51:03] <Jacky^> sure, it also depend on what hes doing to do ..
[22:51:17] <Jacky^> for many applications should be enough
[22:51:21] <Jacky^> and chepaer
[22:51:29] <Jacky^> cheaper*
[22:51:31] <etla> they would be for a small mill
[22:51:44] <etla> I think we have around 300ozin steppers now
[22:52:02] <Jacky^> working slow ?
[22:52:35] <etla> there are various problems, but yes, faster rapids would be nice
[22:52:52] <etla> but we are also thinking of a bigger machine, so maybe not put too much money on this one
[22:53:14] <etla> this one is the first one, and like you said for yours, a bit of a toy
[22:53:15] <Jacky^> right, i agree with you
[22:54:07] <etla> my friend wants to take a loan and just buy a Haas :)
[22:54:29] <Jacky^> im waiting from may 2005
[22:54:40] <etla> maybe that would be easier...
[22:54:45] <Jacky^> and not for $$$ question
[22:55:02] <Jacky^> just to understand what exaclty i need
[22:55:14] <Jacky^> cnc are expensive
[22:56:28] <Jacky^> im thinking to an USC
[22:56:33] <Jacky^> would be niceee
[22:56:44] <etla> whats that ?
[22:56:46] <Jacky^> anonimasu: are you using it , right ?
[22:57:52] <Jacky^> etla: is a controller
[22:58:03] <Jacky^> if i understood weel
[22:58:11] <Jacky^> it do a lot of nice thing
[22:58:36] <Jacky^> like maininig position after driver fault
[22:59:20] <Jacky^> or paused the job, jojjing the axis manually the restart from the same point
[22:59:38] <Jacky^> i'm not 100 % sure, but it would be
[23:01:29] <etla> ok I need to sleep, it's 0:26 thursday already ! good night
[23:31:54] <anonimasu> yes
[23:32:04] <Jacky^> yup
[23:32:08] <Jacky^> O_O
[23:40:36] <keyss`> Cyao a tutta la stanza!
[23:40:38] <keyss`> siiiiiiiiiiiiiii
[23:40:40] <keyss`> jacky
[23:40:45] <Jacky^> eh :)
[23:40:48] <Jacky^> welcome
[23:41:02] <keyss`> :)
[23:41:25] <keyss`> jack
[23:41:32] <keyss`> ora mi metto a parlare dialetto
[23:41:34] <keyss`> :D
[23:41:38] <Jacky^> nuu
[23:41:40] <Jacky^> please
[23:41:47] <keyss`> nu
[23:41:52] <keyss`> please
[23:41:53] <Jacky^> :*
[23:41:54] <keyss`> why?
[23:42:00] <Jacky^> why not ..
[23:42:07] <keyss`> ?
[23:42:13] <Jacky^> yes
[23:42:28] <keyss`> i'am undestand
[23:42:33] <keyss`> ?
[23:42:35] <Jacky^> :)
[23:42:46] <Jacky^> peask only good english here
[23:42:51] <Jacky^> speak*
[23:43:19] <keyss`> ma ke
[23:43:46] <Jacky^> :-)
[23:44:00] <keyss`> jack
[23:44:06] <Jacky^> tell me
[23:44:21] <keyss`> i dont' speake english
[23:44:26] <keyss`> uhm
[23:44:30] <Jacky^> mmhh
[23:44:52] <Jacky^> they accept also imperfect english .. np
[23:44:57] <Jacky^> wait a moment :)
[23:44:59] <keyss`> eh?
[23:45:25] <Jacky^> keyss`:
http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box
[23:45:32] <Jacky^> try this website :)
[23:45:52] <keyss`> crash
[23:45:56] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol
[23:45:56] <keyss`> welcome
[23:45:57] <Jacky^> doh :)
[23:45:59] <keyss`> lol
[23:46:02] <Cr4sh0v3r> hi all
[23:46:03] <Cr4sh0v3r> :D
[23:46:07] <Jacky^> hey Cr4sh0v3r
[23:46:28] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol Jacky^
[23:46:59] <keyss`> crash
[23:47:10] <keyss`> you speak english
[23:47:36] <Cr4sh0v3r> yeah i do
[23:47:38] <Cr4sh0v3r> :D
[23:47:39] <Jacky^> anonimasu: you around ?
[23:47:54] <Cr4sh0v3r> now i'm also registered
[23:47:55] <Cr4sh0v3r> :D
[23:48:00] <Jacky^> wow
[23:48:06] <keyss`> ?
[23:48:16] <Jacky^> yes,
[23:48:25] <Cr4sh0v3r> no pvt without nick reg
[23:48:27] <Jacky^> unregistered user cannot open query
[23:48:28] <Cr4sh0v3r> :D
[23:48:32] <Jacky^> right
[23:48:33] <Cr4sh0v3r> yeah
[23:48:34] <Cr4sh0v3r> _D
[23:48:56] <Cr4sh0v3r> /ns register password
[23:49:01] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol
[23:49:07] <Jacky^> i'm alredy registered
[23:49:15] <Jacky^> keyss`: not .. probably
[23:49:17] <Cr4sh0v3r> it was to keyss
[23:49:22] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol
[23:49:25] <keyss`> ??????
[23:49:33] <Cr4sh0v3r> keyss are u registered ?
[23:49:39] <keyss`> no
[23:49:42] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol
[23:49:53] <Cr4sh0v3r> do /ns register password
[23:51:51] <Jacky^> keyss`: its okay ?
[23:51:54] <Jacky^> :)
[23:52:58] <Cr4sh0v3r> she knows just a little of english and i think didn't understnd
[23:53:01] <Cr4sh0v3r> :P
[23:53:15] <Jacky^> i'm too :(��
[23:53:19] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ sigh
[23:53:41] <Jacky^> hahaha
[23:53:44] <Jacky^> doh
[23:54:35] <Cr4sh0v3r> aiaiai
[23:54:50] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol
[23:54:52] <Cr4sh0v3r> imho
[23:54:58] <Cr4sh0v3r> i'm going to sleep
[23:54:59] <Cr4sh0v3r> :D
[23:55:14] <Jacky^> g night Cr4sh0v3r , thanks
[23:55:14] <Cr4sh0v3r> it's 00.20 here
[23:55:19] <Jacky^> yeah
[23:55:21] <Cr4sh0v3r> lol
[23:55:24] <Cr4sh0v3r> bye bye
[23:55:25] <Cr4sh0v3r> :D
[23:55:26] <Jacky^> :)
[23:55:28] <Jacky^> bye
[23:56:48] <anonimasu> /ns wont work for all clients
[23:56:54] <Jacky^> hahaha
[23:56:56] <Jacky^> anonimasu:
[23:57:10] <Jacky^> keyss is my new girlfriend :P
[23:57:36] <Jacky^> very nicee :)
[23:57:57] <anonimasu> ?
[23:58:07] <anonimasu> ok
