#emc | Logs for 2005-08-21

[00:23:36] <Jacky^> we
[00:27:40] <Jymmm> party at Jacky^!
[00:27:46] <Jacky^> heh
[00:27:49] <Jacky^> :D
[00:28:21] <Jacky^> Jymmm: saturday night is important here :))
[00:30:47] <Jacky^> dou you remember ? Giovanni travolta is italian :P
[00:34:35] <xet7> How do I get IP from DHCP server on EMC live cd? I can't find tools that are in knoppix normally.
[00:35:03] <xet7> knoppix goes to the net straight away on same laptop
[00:36:29] <Jacky^> xet7: what about your /etc/network/interfaces ?
[00:36:34] <paul_c> rc46 should get an ip address from the dhcp server... As long as the nic driver has been loaded.
[00:37:08] <paul_c> open a console and type in "sudo ifconfig"
[00:38:22] <Jacky^> right
[00:38:44] <Jacky^> you need to know if your nic was recognized
[00:39:04] <xet7> there is correct IP address but still can't get to net with konqueror
[00:39:23] <paul_c> if it was a wifi card, you're out of luck.
[00:39:26] <Jacky^> dns ?
[00:39:43] <Jacky^> xet7: cat /etc/resolv.conf
[00:39:49] <xet7> unknown host. Ethernet cable
[00:39:59] <Jacky^> the gateway ?
[00:40:08] <Jacky^> is correct ??
[00:40:13] <Jacky^> route -n
[00:41:10] <Jacky^> xet7: is the first time you run BDI ?
[00:42:10] <xet7> Jacky: Yes, first time. I got to the net, added name of DHCP server to resolv.conf and then ifconfig !! :)
[00:42:23] <Jacky^> wow
[00:42:26] <Jacky^> cool
[00:42:28] <Jacky^> :D
[00:43:23] <xet7> Does Sherline_Metric work with grinding?
[00:43:28] <Jacky^> xet7: wich machine are you driven ?
[00:43:28] <xet7> Scripting with TCL?
[00:45:04] <xet7> Vacon CX/CXL
[00:45:15] <xet7> is the target
[00:45:21] <xet7> but I'm at home now
[00:46:18] <xet7> Laptop is running EMC live cd, I'm typing this on Pentium II pc near it
[00:46:26] <Jacky^> xet7: are you new to Linux ?
[00:46:30] <xet7> No
[00:46:43] <xet7> I have ubuntu linux running here
[00:46:44] <Jacky^> ok
[00:47:30] <xet7> So can EMC control 6 axels with parallel port?
[00:48:09] <Jacky^> i've no idea .. paul_c probably know..
[00:48:27] <Jacky^> do you have a machine with 6 axels ?
[00:48:41] <cradek> yes, there are 12 I/O bits on a parallel port so it can do 6 step/dir
[00:48:47] <paul_c> http://emc.sourceforge.net/Handbook/node22.html
[00:49:13] <Jacky^> xet7: got a pictures ?
[00:49:36] <Jacky^> xet7: it's homebuilt machine ?
[00:50:49] <Jacky^> xet7: are U ??
[00:50:54] <xet7> No, it's at factory, I'm replacing controller computer. www.vacon.com
[00:51:00] <Jacky^> ah.. ok
[00:51:56] <xet7> I bought TurboCNC and tried to modify it, and then came to EMC
[00:52:43] <Jacky^> xet7: turbocnc ?
[00:52:49] <Jacky^> are you from japan ?
[00:52:51] <xet7> dos shareware
[00:52:56] <xet7> no finland
[00:53:04] <Jacky^> shareware ? what is ?
[00:53:13] <Jacky^> great finland
[00:53:23] <Jacky^> i'm from italy
[00:53:26] <xet7> http://www.dakeng.com/turbocnc.html
[00:53:35] <xet7> programmed in turbo pascal
[00:54:23] <Jacky^> why u use emc ?
[00:54:28] <xet7> but EMC backplot is cool, does it work with grinding?
[00:54:30] <Jacky^> milling, drilling ?
[00:55:16] <Jacky^> emc backplot it's an Henry idea
[00:55:31] <paul_c> Jacky^: Ray Henry
[00:55:37] <Jacky^> oops
[00:55:55] <Jacky^> sorry, right
[00:56:10] <paul_c> xet7: As long as you can describe your tool path, EMC can do the moves.
[00:56:18] <xet7> Where is source of Sherline_Metric?
[00:56:29] <paul_c> It doesn't really matter if it is a mill or a grinder...
[00:57:22] <paul_c> EDM is the only one that can't be done too well due to the requirement of back-tracking along the original tool path.
[00:58:45] <xet7> EDM is short of?
[00:59:53] <paul_c> electric discharge machining
[01:01:56] <xet7> Is apt-get safe to use when EMC is installed to hard drive? Of does it mess up the system?
[01:02:15] <Jacky^> O_o
[01:02:22] <paul_c> sure.
[01:02:40] <paul_c> That was the whole point of going to Debian as the base.
[01:03:20] <xet7> Cool. Because I have had broken things with Knoppix hd install, haven't tested Morphix much,
[01:03:51] <Jacky^> xet7: what is Morphix ?
[01:04:15] <xet7> Isn't EMC live cd based on Morphix?
[01:04:23] <Jacky^> mmmhh
[01:04:39] <paul_c> Morphix is a Debian derivative
[01:04:45] <xet7> ok
[01:05:29] <Jacky^> xet7: how many degrees there ?
[01:06:29] <xet7> +13 celsius, what about there?
[01:06:32] <Jacky^> here 34
[01:06:37] <Jacky^> nice
[01:06:51] <Jacky^> please, give all fan you have
[01:06:54] <Jacky^> :D
[01:07:30] <Jacky^> are you near to sea ?
[01:08:37] <xet7> no, at east border
[01:08:47] <xet7> far from it
[01:09:00] <Jacky^> nice :)
[01:09:11] <xet7> no floods :)
[01:09:20] <Jacky^> please take a look to my machine: http://www.roboitalia.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=75
[01:09:35] <Jacky^> 8 axels really machine
[01:10:11] <Jacky^> i'm an hacker !
[01:10:32] <xet7> Cool :)
[01:10:36] <Jacky^> :)
[01:10:54] <xet7> Can you control all axes with EMC? :)
[01:11:10] <Jacky^> hehehehe
[01:11:14] <Jacky^> sure
[01:11:19] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ kidding
[01:11:30] <Jacky^> we can control valerie
[01:11:36] <Jacky^> this mean all
[01:12:26] <Jacky^> do you know what valerie is ?
[01:13:48] <xet7> Hmm, no, couldn't find it from online dictionary
[01:14:18] <Jacky^> @ moment...
[01:14:42] <Jacky^> http://www.androidworld.com/prod19.htm
[01:15:26] <Jacky^> # 2.4 GHz desktop-type PC
[01:15:26] <Jacky^> # 1 GByte RAM
[01:15:27] <Jacky^> # 80 GByte Disk
[01:15:36] <Jacky^> :D
[01:15:48] <xet7> In what directory on EMC live cd is Sherline_Metric tcl source or .kit?
[01:16:10] <xet7> or what is URL for program?
[01:16:14] <Jacky^> just Model: Valerie (female) - $59,000
[01:17:11] <Jacky^> for program it don't worry..
[01:17:27] <Jacky^> we will remove any viruz
[01:17:31] <Jacky^> :))
[01:18:15] <Jacky^> xet7: are you near the place where linus was born ?
[01:21:09] <xet7> no, Linus lived in south finland near sea, I'm in east border
[01:21:33] <xet7> I have read his book though, and kernel traffic
[01:21:44] <Jacky^> :)
[01:21:55] <Jacky^> how many years old ?
[01:21:59] <xet7> 30
[01:22:03] <Jacky^> 37
[01:22:55] <Jacky^> nice
[01:24:44] <Jacky^> that's ok, if you want to start to use cnc macine, youre in the right place
[01:25:15] <Jacky^> machine*
[01:26:33] <xet7> I found Sherline_Metric folder, just got to find user interface file
[01:26:50] <Jacky^> what
[01:27:00] <Jacky^> want to use mm ?
[01:27:06] <Jacky^> as unit
[01:27:23] <xet7> yeah, not inch
[01:27:30] <Jacky^> i'm too..
[01:28:03] <Jacky^> there's some problem using mm as unit
[01:28:39] <xet7> ?
[01:29:10] <xet7> so can I use inch in units and on interface just convert it to mm?
[01:29:23] <xet7> does it affect G-Code?
[01:29:25] <Jacky^> i think so
[01:30:36] <Jacky^> you just need to add some gcode commade like G21
[01:30:57] <paul_c> Jacky^: There is (was) a problem using <50 steps per mm
[01:30:59] <xet7> well, CNC code is made with AutoCAD and MasterCAM, and I think it uses mm
[01:31:13] <paul_c> that has been fixed for BDI-4
[01:31:20] <xet7> cool
[01:31:39] <Jacky^> xet7: i'm using artcam pro
[01:31:47] <xet7> is BDI-4 same as in rc46?
[01:32:20] <Jacky^> xet7: what is rc46 ??
[01:32:56] <Jacky^> i think its a good idea to learn how gcode work ..
[01:34:28] <paul_c> xet7: BDI-4 basically takes off from where the BDI-Live development left off.
[01:35:03] <xet7> What is the status of that development?
[01:35:04] <paul_c> All the packages compiled for BDI-4 will run on BDI-Live (after a few bits have been upgraded)
[01:35:17] <xet7> What few bits?
[01:35:47] <paul_c> What ever has been upgraded in Sarge.
[01:35:54] <xet7> ok
[01:36:17] <Jacky^> :-))
[01:39:03] <xet7> so is that just: 1) install BDI to hd, 2) apt-get upgrade, 3) install new packages and compile?
[01:41:02] <Jacky^> xet7: sure
[01:41:12] <paul_c> If you want to work with emc2, no need to upgrade.
[01:41:34] <paul_c> If you want to use the latest emc.deb, yes.
[01:42:17] <paul_c> but... The old EMC won't run on the 2.6.10 kernel.
[01:42:32] <Jacky^> otherwise, you can all try : http://update.microsoft.com/
[01:42:47] <Jacky^> but it's hard ..
[01:42:55] <Jacky^> you can believe me
[01:43:08] <xet7> so there is deb for new version already, no need to compile?
[01:43:45] <xet7> well, I'd like mm to work
[01:46:11] <paul_c> full package, no compiling needed.
[01:48:51] <xet7> Which one has more features, Sherline_Metric or Python AXIS ?
[01:50:42] <paul_c> mini is slow to load, axis is faster.
[01:50:56] <paul_c> axis has a gl based backplotter
[02:03:15] <xet7> can CNC machines be controlled through USB port?
[02:06:25] <paul_c> hobby machines, possibly.
[02:08:46] <xet7> Can TkEmc on Windows control Linux EMC through net?
[02:09:45] <paul_c> There are a couple of Windows binaries floating around. You need a later one for the current emc builds.
[02:12:20] <xet7> How can I use radius compensation with Python AXIS?
[02:18:07] <Jacky^> interesting..
[02:18:15] <paul_c> same as any other interface - Use G40/41/42/43
[02:28:38] <xet7> I'm burning files to DVD from my laptops:s ubuntu linux partition so I can install EMC livecd to it :)
[02:29:41] <Jacky^> please zofaichecca dont' jump he mic again
[02:29:49] <Jacky^> umpf
[02:29:58] <xet7> :)
[02:31:08] <xet7> Is bdi-4.20.iso installable full debian system with newest EMC?
[02:31:25] <paul_c> BDI-4.23
[02:31:40] <paul_c> Don't stay up all night folks.
[02:34:01] <Jacky^> ouch
[02:34:18] <Jacky^> banned fro *USA1**
[02:34:40] <Jacky^> i'm aws just eard ..
[02:34:43] <Jacky^> bah
[02:34:59] <Jacky^> Jymmm: are you ?
[02:42:06] <Jacky^> G night
[02:48:11] <xet7> Good night
[10:12:28] <_AchiestDragon> _AchiestDragon is now known as AchiestDragon
[10:16:18] <xet7> Where is BDI-4.23.iso?
[10:37:44] <AchiestDragon> :S i just downloaded BDI-4.20.iso , is there a newer version , before i burn this to cd
[10:43:13] <xet7> paul_c said something about BDI-4.23, but I don't know if there is iso for it
[10:43:29] <xet7> I don't know if it exists
[10:48:02] <xet7> I have downloaded RC46 live cd and will install it and update debs, then later think about BDI-4
[10:53:06] <robin_sz> meep?
[11:04:53] <xet7> what's meep?
[11:05:11] <robin_sz> its the noise made by a small furry creature as it says "hello"
[11:05:21] <xet7> :) hello
[11:06:30] <robin_sz> ;)
[11:09:31] <xet7> does BDI-4.20 run in PentiumII PC with 256 mb ram?
[11:09:48] <robin_sz> not tried, but at a guess, yes
[11:09:56] <robin_sz> what speed P2?
[11:10:22] <xet7> If I remember right, 233 or 266Mhz
[11:10:59] <robin_sz> should be ok, a bit slow .. will be OK for servos, or non-microstepped steppers
[11:14:41] <xet7> is BDI-4.20 text or graphic mode install?
[11:14:52] <robin_sz> no idea
[11:15:06] <robin_sz> never tried any of the recent BDI releases
[11:15:17] <xet7> ok I'll try myself sometime
[11:26:54] <xet7> Should I use debian woody, sarge or sid apt-get souces?
[11:31:40] <xet7> Ok, I'll use sarge, they sain in #debian
[11:32:14] <robin_sz> hmmm
[11:32:23] <robin_sz> now you have me confused
[11:32:38] <robin_sz> the BDI includes the OS
[11:32:56] <robin_sz> you dont need to install Debian first ...
[11:35:30] <xet7> hey, I installed from RC46 live cd and there is multiple choises in sources.list selected, no panic :)
[11:36:45] <AchiestDragon> will that version run just from the live cd if there is xp on the pc ,without installing it to hd ?
[11:39:09] <xet7> yeah I booted it fine on my laptop
[11:39:12] <AchiestDragon> i have a ibm thinkpad , but ist got xp on , and need to get a bigger hd for it first so i can get it to dual boot , so dont want to trash it
[11:39:26] <xet7> 256 Mb ram needed
[11:39:41] <xet7> for live cd
[11:39:54] <AchiestDragon> where do it get the iso
[11:40:26] <xet7> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BrainDeadInstall
[11:41:08] <xet7> That's wiki page link taken from http://www.linuxcnc.org/bdi/
[11:41:56] <AchiestDragon> k
[11:42:00] <AchiestDragon> downloading
[12:43:54] <robin_sz> coo, look
[12:44:02] <robin_sz> people actually installing this thing :)
[12:45:14] <robin_sz> yeah, the live CD is a good thing to try if you just want to "see what it does" as it wont touch your HD
[13:07:40] <xet7> is it possible to use latest EMC with live cd? Extracting files while running from CD?
[13:52:56] <xet7> If EMC runs on text mode linux, how much RAM it needs?
[13:53:42] <robin_sz> no idea
[13:54:38] <robin_sz> why not just dig out an old 2gb HD and throw it into the machine and install a non-live BDI and take ti from there?
[13:55:21] <xet7> sure :)
[14:14:39] <Yuga> hey all
[14:14:49] <Yuga> hi all
[14:19:48] <xet7> Where are #emc irc logs?
[14:30:02] <xet7> Found it: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?IrcLogs
[14:35:35] <robin_sz> logger_aj: bookmark?
[14:35:35] <robin_sz> See http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2005-08-21#T14-35-35
[16:03:13] <robin_sz> hi john
[16:07:26] <jmkasunich> hi
[16:07:38] <robin_sz> I got a note back from us digital
[16:07:47] <robin_sz> re that neat little USB IO interface
[16:08:04] <ValarQ> hi folks
[16:08:57] <jmkasunich> what interface is that?
[16:09:03] <robin_sz> they have given almost enough info to write a driver,
[16:09:10] <robin_sz> http://www.usdigital.com/products/usb32/
[16:09:31] <robin_sz> 32 channels of IO over a USB interface for $trivial
[16:11:08] <robin_sz> looked purpose-made to become a HAL module to me :)
[16:11:11] <xet7> Is newest emc debs at: deb http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bdi-emc/debian/ ./ ?
[16:12:04] <robin_sz> you'll need to ask paul_c
[16:12:08] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: do you know if i can use HAL to control a PWM servo?
[16:12:38] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: i was talking with mr Paul about it yeasterday and he told me to bug you about it today :)
[16:13:24] <xet7> Where is newest tkEmc source?
[16:14:16] <xet7> I think Python AXIS has less features than tkEmc, is that correct?
[16:14:19] <robin_sz> source should be available from the same place as the .debs
[16:19:56] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich isn't particularly fond of USB
[16:20:24] <robin_sz> got any other u?seable solution
[16:20:46] <jmkasunich> WTF? 10 mins of discussion didn't appear until I made my last comment - I thought you were just being quiet
[16:21:00] <robin_sz> server lag I guess?
[16:21:07] <jmkasunich> I guess
[16:21:28] <jmkasunich> anyway, yes, that I/O module could probably be halified, but it would be non-realtime I think
[16:21:40] <jmkasunich> still usefull for some things
[16:21:50] <robin_sz> non-realtime?
[16:22:09] <robin_sz> I guess you coulnt use it for step pulses
[16:22:16] <jmkasunich> making USB realtime won't be fun I don't think
[16:22:20] <robin_sz> but for "normal" io its as realtime as you need
[16:22:50] <jmkasunich> "realtime" = known and bounded upper limit on delay
[16:23:07] <jmkasunich> anything with a user space component is not, by definition
[16:23:20] <jmkasunich> even if 99.9999999% of the time it acts very quickly
[16:23:38] <jmkasunich> but I agree, there is lots of I/O that doesn't really need hard realtime performance
[16:23:40] <cradek> xet7: AXIS and tkemc have different functionality - neither is a strict superset of the other
[16:24:11] <robin_sz> I can only think of things like step pulses and spindle position sensors .. maybe limit switches that need "hard" realtime
[16:24:27] <jmkasunich> yes, and things like "laser on"
[16:24:36] <robin_sz> and even then .. I suspect it would be fast enough for limitswitches in most cases
[16:25:15] <jmkasunich> until that one time in a million where user space "goes away" for a sizable fraction of a second, and you have a crash
[16:25:23] <robin_sz> whatevere ... with the disappearance of parallel ports, it looks a nice, cheap and comercially available IO solution
[16:25:35] <jmkasunich> cheap is relative
[16:25:50] <jmkasunich> parports are still cheaper, even if you have to look around a bit to find a PCI one
[16:26:21] <robin_sz> and not easy to fit them to laptops
[16:26:49] <jmkasunich> to each their own... I would never use a laptop for machine control
[16:26:58] <jmkasunich> I despise laptops in general though ;-)
[16:27:30] <jmkasunich> laptops compromize performance and price and flexibliity for performance
[16:27:40] <jmkasunich> oops
[16:27:45] <jmkasunich> for portability
[16:27:52] <robin_sz> yeah
[16:27:53] <ValarQ> flexibliit :)
[16:28:02] <jmkasunich> machine controls don't need portability, so why compromize?
[16:28:05] <AchiestDragon> not got much option , i dont want to be carting a 21" monitor into my workshop each time i need to use the cnc
[16:28:09] <robin_sz> says who?
[16:28:18] <jmkasunich> most machine cointrols don't need portability anyway
[16:28:25] <robin_sz> * robin_sz disagrees
[16:29:00] <jmkasunich> about what? the need for portability, or the compromize?
[16:29:18] <robin_sz> how many times do we have the "I'll have to go out to the workshop and try it .. I'll report back" scenario on here?
[16:29:37] <jmkasunich> that's because the iron is in the workshop
[16:29:49] <robin_sz> yes ...
[16:30:03] <robin_sz> and being able to moive the control from the shop to the house is very very useful
[16:30:48] <AchiestDragon> especialy if your workshop is in the garden
[16:30:49] <jmkasunich> like I said, to each his own... I just can't stand laptops - the keyboards and everything else, even when I don't need I/O
[16:31:30] <Jymmm> jmkasunich you would like my laptop.... good kybd layout
[16:31:48] <robin_sz> * robin_sz prefers laptops to desktops most of the time
[16:31:55] <jmkasunich> not unless it is full width with a numeric keypad
[16:32:42] <robin_sz> anyway ... it looked a handy little IO block with a connection that exists on most modern machines
[16:32:50] <jmkasunich> true enough
[16:33:01] <robin_sz> the protocal is very simple too
[16:33:21] <robin_sz> send a query byte, get back 4 response bytes
[16:33:24] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Yeah, I use numpad ALL the time as well, but w/o going to a 17" LCD (which mine doens't have) you can't get that, but all in all this one has everything else but the numpad.
[16:33:39] <Jymmm> jmkasunich it does have a real serial port though =)
[16:33:40] <jmkasunich> see, there you have it - compromizes
[16:34:12] <jmkasunich> I have a 20" LCD, full size keyboard, and KVM that lets me use two different boxes
[16:34:35] <jmkasunich> bought the LCD new, and still probably have far less $ invested than you have in one laptop
[16:34:36] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I have big hands, this one is pretty good. I had even ordered another one direct from Japan, I LOVED it, but didn't like the kybd and returned it.
[16:34:37] <robin_sz> anyway ... I had a nice week at Bisley, even won a few things
[16:34:48] <jmkasunich> shooting?
[16:34:51] <robin_sz> yeah
[16:35:09] <robin_sz> highest score in the county team :)
[16:35:33] <jmkasunich> congrats
[16:35:47] <jmkasunich> one of these days I want to try that
[16:36:19] <robin_sz> blew the main competition with a total screw up .. accidentally relaeased a shot before on target, hit the white area, scoring -10 points ...
[16:36:20] <Jymmm> jmkasunich shooting or competition?
[16:36:31] <jmkasunich> shooting first, maybe competition later
[16:36:44] <Jymmm> jmkasunich good cheap therapy too =)
[16:36:51] <jmkasunich> my brother does both, but he lives far enough away that I can't just "pop over and give it a try"
[16:37:11] <jmkasunich> he shoots .45ACP
[16:37:17] <robin_sz> ooh, big stuff
[16:37:26] <jmkasunich> M1911, a classic
[16:37:31] <robin_sz> I just do .22 prone rifle .. more like meditation than shooting
[16:38:18] <jmkasunich> yeah, 90% is mental
[16:38:21] <robin_sz> we dont have pistols shooting in the UK either, which is a bit of a problem for the Olympics in 2012
[16:38:34] <jmkasunich> I used to to target archery in college, same thing, 90% mental
[16:38:42] <robin_sz> yep
[16:38:50] <robin_sz> thats the bit I enjoy ..
[16:39:06] <robin_sz> I go out all stressed .. i come back calm and relaxed ...
[16:39:09] <jmkasunich> archery is cheaper too... you can reuse the ammo ;-)
[16:39:13] <robin_sz> heh
[16:39:28] <robin_sz> unless you are any good of course
[16:39:36] <robin_sz> and keep splitting arrows down the back
[16:39:42] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Theres something about the smell of gunpowder and the 'KaBoom' though =)
[16:39:48] <jmkasunich> I have 3 or 4 like that
[16:40:20] <jmkasunich> and another half dozen or so that were damaged sufficiently to be scrap, even tho the second one didn't stick inside the first
[16:40:23] <robin_sz> Jymmm: the smell and kaboom do nothing for me .. I get just as much fun from using the electronic trainer
[16:41:03] <robin_sz> I must get a bow one day ... it seems to be much the same sort of sport
[16:41:27] <jmkasunich> there is more wear and tear on the body tho
[16:41:37] <jmkasunich> fingers etc
[16:41:40] <robin_sz> the electronic trainer is a neat thing ... some sort of IR "quadrant" sensor ...
[16:41:42] <Jymmm> robin_sz : The smell/kaboom just kinda keeps you in check...
[16:42:08] <jmkasunich> I still have my bow, but it would take a lot of shooting to get back into shape
[16:42:30] <Jymmm> and bloody fingers?!
[16:42:30] <jmkasunich> and an archery range is as hard to find around here as a fire-arms range
[16:42:41] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: the traniers are silly money, like $2k ... the sensors are some russion military thing .. i keep wondering if a cheap CCD chip might work just as well
[16:43:02] <robin_sz> I bet they would work for bows too
[16:43:36] <jmkasunich> seems like the trainer just senses where the gun is pointed when the trigger releases, right?
[16:43:46] <robin_sz> they give a realtime trace of where its pointing, and how it moves as you release the shot
[16:43:55] <robin_sz> you can play it back
[16:44:02] <jmkasunich> so it can detect things like flinch
[16:44:11] <robin_sz> exactly
[16:44:20] <jmkasunich> archery is more complex tho, it's not just where you point, but how you release
[16:44:22] <Jymmm> "made you flinch!" lol
[16:44:27] <robin_sz> exactly
[16:44:46] <jmkasunich> things like how stiff the arrow is make a difference
[16:44:48] <robin_sz> so you can monitor how consistent your release is etc
[16:44:54] <robin_sz> yeah, I know
[16:45:14] <jmkasunich> anyway, dry-firing a bow would wreck it after not to many shots
[16:45:14] <robin_sz> thats why the tail flights miss the bow etc
[16:45:29] <robin_sz> live fire at 5m?
[16:45:34] <Jymmm> jmkasunich why is that?
[16:46:01] <jmkasunich> without the mass of the arrow to absorb energy, the string moves very fast, then stops even faster
[16:46:08] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[16:46:24] <jmkasunich> broken string at best, maybe broken bow limbs after you replace the string a few times
[16:46:34] <Jymmm> ah
[16:46:51] <jmkasunich> strings break after a few hundred to a few thousand shots even with arrows
[16:47:41] <jmkasunich> that definitely wakes you up ;-)
[16:48:29] <jmkasunich> robin: live fire at 5m? I hope the expensive bits of the trainer aren't mounted on the target ;-)
[16:48:49] <robin_sz> no ..
[16:48:58] <robin_sz> the expensive bit is on the gun/bow
[16:49:08] <robin_sz> just a plain old IR led on the dangerous end
[16:49:50] <jmkasunich> seems you could do it with a lightweight video cam and a vcr
[16:49:59] <robin_sz> sorta
[16:50:23] <robin_sz> but I get 0.1mm readouts at 50m (scaled) from this
[16:50:34] <jmkasunich> wow
[16:50:49] <robin_sz> and yes, it does seem to sorts work
[16:51:00] <robin_sz> I tried benching the sensor in a vice
[16:51:10] <jmkasunich> you mean the led is 50m away?
[16:51:10] <robin_sz> and moving the target at 10m with a vernier
[16:51:16] <robin_sz> 10m normally
[16:51:20] <anonimasu> robin!
[16:51:24] <robin_sz> dude!
[16:52:07] <anonimasu> how's things
[16:52:26] <robin_sz> oh, you know .. not bad
[16:52:36] <jmkasunich> 0.1mm at 50m means 0.1 micron at 50mm... IOW if you have a 50mm focal length lens, the imager needs 0.1micron pixel size
[16:53:04] <robin_sz> this is an analogue sensor, not pixels
[16:53:15] <jmkasunich> ahhhh
[16:53:17] <anonimasu> :)
[16:53:18] <robin_sz> four qhaudrant IR
[16:53:33] <jmkasunich> so linear only over a small range
[16:53:43] <robin_sz> I suspect its a russian guided missile sensor ..
[16:53:45] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[16:54:18] <jmkasunich> back when I worked for a company that made industrial grade encoders, they used a quadrant sensor
[16:54:27] <jmkasunich> four Si photocells
[16:54:37] <jmkasunich> overall diameter about 10mm
[16:54:53] <robin_sz> this is the size of a 5mm to92 transistor .. with a glass top
[16:55:09] <jmkasunich> they used it with a slotted mask, that matched the pitch of the encoder wheel
[16:56:33] <jmkasunich> doesn't sound like it should be so pricey
[16:58:05] <xet7> are there hand wheel controllers that work with EMC?
[16:58:37] <jmkasunich> xet7: what do you mean
[16:59:12] <jmkasunich> are there hendwheels? yes, lots of manual encoders out there, or you can make your own with a US Digital encoder and a knob
[16:59:42] <xet7> maybe that's not correct word...
[17:00:18] <xet7> external controls for feed override etc
[17:01:04] <jmkasunich> the existing GUIs don't support external devices for controls, but it could be done
[17:06:09] <Jymmm> bummer, a joystick might be nice.
[17:06:16] <jmkasunich> for jogging?
[17:06:21] <Jymmm> yeah
[17:09:31] <Jymmm> a touch screen would be cool
[17:09:51] <jmkasunich> I think Ray did a GUI that worked with touch screens once
[17:10:08] <cradek> jepler wrote a linux-joystick-to-emc jogging thingy
[17:10:22] <cradek> I'm sure he told the list about it a while back
[17:10:36] <Jymmm> That's what gave me the idea... the look/feel of one of the gui's was big enough for touchscreen.
[17:10:53] <Jymmm> cradek a regular PC joystick?
[17:10:59] <cradek> I think so
[17:11:05] <Jymmm> cool.
[17:11:26] <Jymmm> think it's on the wiki by chance?
[17:11:35] <jmkasunich> when I get my roud-tuit, I want to write a jogwheel thingy... display six buttons in a window (X,Y,Z, x1,x10,x100) and read an encoder position from HAL, write JOG commands using NML when the encoder position changes
[17:11:46] <cradek> http://craie.unpy.net/aether/index.cgi/software/01119021973
[17:12:01] <cradek> This Python program, which uses the emc module from AXIS, lets you use any Linux-supported joystick or d-pad as a jogging pendant. I wrote this back in the early days of AXIS development, and only ever tested it on the emc1 simulator, so the code may be quite stale. I don't have my d-pad handy to test it.
[17:13:42] <Jymmm> LOL.... imagine using a joystick with force feedback!
[17:17:24] <robin_sz> Jymmm: you there?
[17:17:38] <Jymmm> no, leave a smg at the .............
[17:17:50] <bpmw_> Hi guys!
[17:17:50] <robin_sz> did you get your mill back yet?
[17:18:00] <Jymmm> yep
[17:18:26] <robin_sz> wow .. well, there goes my prediction that it wouldnt happen
[17:18:30] <robin_sz> how does it work?
[17:18:50] <bpmw_> I have a quick question:
[17:19:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich heres the joystick I thought might be good --> http://cgi.ebay.com/Thrustmaster-Top-Gun-Joystick-Used-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ5797621733QQcategoryZ3677QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[17:20:42] <jepler> the software I wrote only does "digital" jogging, so a d-pad type controller is more appropriate than an analog joystick
[17:21:27] <bpmw_> I changed my max velocity from 0.17 to 0.2 and now get following error. My ferror is set to 0.050 and min ferror to 0.010. What should they now be? Other wise my machine is working awesome.
[17:22:21] <jmkasunich> I assume you are using inches, so 0.2 = 0.2 inches per second, or 12 inches per minute?
[17:22:44] <bpmw_> JMK Correct.
[17:22:46] <Jymmm> robin_sz: they crated it to me, the wire tie broke and the gnatry bounced around during transport scratching/gouging everywhere. The Z axis binds near the top 2" of travel. The Y axis mount mounting block is not square so is prematurely wearing out the belt. The X axis pulley is scraping againest the frame material.
[17:23:00] <Jymmm> jepler : Sorry, what's a 'd-pad' ?
[17:23:12] <anonimasu> ^_^
[17:23:34] <jepler> like on the old nintendo or atari
[17:23:34] <jmkasunich> bpmw: what is your steps per inch (SCALE)?
[17:23:44] <jepler> each direction you can push the stick just closes a swith
[17:23:46] <jepler> switch
[17:24:08] <Jymmm> jepler ah, like the full arcade type controls?
[17:24:18] <bpmw_> One sec John, I'll get it for you.
[17:24:18] <Jymmm> microswitches
[17:25:34] <Jymmm> jepler: ah bummer.... would have been nice to have variable speed jogging depending on how far you moved the joystick over.
[17:25:55] <jepler> http://cgi.ebay.com/Logitech-Wingman-Precision-USB-Gamepad-PC-Macintosh_W0QQitemZ5800491288QQcategoryZ3677QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
[17:25:56] <bpmw_> Hi John, 2 steppers are at 10,000 and 1 at 18,000.
[17:26:17] <jepler> something like this
[17:26:28] <Jymmm> jepler yeah, I understand now.
[17:26:35] <jmkasunich> so at 0.2 ips you need to output 2000Hz on two axis, and 3600HZ on the third
[17:27:15] <jmkasunich> is your BASE_PERIOD 100uS or less (0.000100)?
[17:27:42] <bpmw_> Base period is 0.000025
[17:28:01] <jmkasunich> ok, so that isn't the problem
[17:29:24] <jmkasunich> do you have BACKLASH set to a non-zero value?
[17:30:37] <bpmw_> I have 0.002, 0.002, and 0.003 respectivly
[17:31:21] <Jymmm> jepler: is that your website?
[17:31:21] <jmkasunich> ok, let's try a test... save your existing ini file under a new name, change all three backlash values to zero, and see if that makes the ferror go away
[17:31:43] <Jymmm> jepler : what program are you using for your gallery?
[17:31:43] <jepler> Jymmm: unpy.net? Yeah, that's my website
[17:32:02] <jepler> Jymmm: for photos.unpy.net? It's some custom software written in python with a postgres database.
[17:32:04] <bpmw_> ok, i'll be back shortly!
[17:33:05] <Jymmm> jepler : Ah, I noticed that you have EXIF data + Nikon 5700. The Nikon SW doens't show ALL the EXIF data that's available but I know of a php lib that does if you're interested.
[17:33:53] <jepler> Jymmm: There are a few Python modules for EXIF data too
[17:34:01] <jepler> i have never used php
[17:34:19] <Jymmm> jepler : Yeah, but this is pretty extensive, you could easily convert it over to python.
[17:35:16] <Jymmm> jepler it also read/writes exif and the bs from adobe
[17:37:33] <robin_sz> Jymmm: sorry, was AFK, so .. they crated it back and its all bent up right?
[17:37:48] <robin_sz> Jymmm: i presume you are sending it back for replacement?
[17:38:01] <bpmw_> Hi John, Still get following error.
[17:38:17] <jmkasunich> ok, so it's not due to the rapid move during backlash comp
[17:38:40] <robin_sz> jepler: avoid PHP at all costs, it sucks. theres a C program called 'jhead' that will read all exif data for you
[17:38:52] <Jymmm> jepler: here it is.... http://www.ozhiker.com/electronics/pjmt/index.html
[17:39:00] <jmkasunich> when you changed the max vel, did you change it in the axis sections, or the traj section, or both?
[17:39:09] <bpmw_> both
[17:39:14] <jmkasunich> ok
[17:39:49] <jmkasunich> this is plain old software generated step pulses out the parport, right?
[17:40:08] <bpmw_> emc2
[17:40:33] <robin_sz> Jymmm: have you been able to test the accuracy and sqaureness of the machine yet, or is it too broken to actually work?
[17:40:57] <Jymmm> robin_sz: We'll see how their response is on monday. Lots of time already invested right now to JUST say 'gimme my money back' without giving them a chance to resolve these (hopefully) last few little problems and to just start the whole process over again .
[17:41:09] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[17:41:10] <Jymmm> robin_sz I'm going to try that today.
[17:41:21] <robin_sz> do you have a dial guage?
[17:41:35] <Jymmm> a lil cheapy one, yeah
[17:41:51] <robin_sz> well, I'd be very interested in one simple test
[17:41:54] <jmkasunich> bpmw: which axis is reporting the ferror?
[17:42:15] <Jymmm> since the whole machine is aluminum, I got me a piece of ground steel to mount the base to
[17:42:24] <robin_sz> right
[17:42:27] <bpmw_> x is where i've tried it
[17:42:49] <jmkasunich> what do you mean?
[17:43:01] <Jymmm> robin_sz what simple test?
[17:43:01] <jmkasunich> you are running a g-code program that only moves X?
[17:43:21] <robin_sz> I'm interested to know if you put the DTI on the bed, and the probe on the gantry at one end, and pull and push with say, 100N (10kg) of force, how much twist there is on the gantry
[17:43:36] <bpmw_> no, manual rapid jogs with keyboard
[17:44:11] <jmkasunich> ok, that is strange
[17:44:14] <Jymmm> robin_sz at the base or top of the gantry?
[17:44:16] <jmkasunich> how fast is your PC?
[17:44:29] <bpmw_> 800 Mhz duron
[17:44:35] <jmkasunich> should be plenty fast
[17:44:39] <robin_sz> Jymmm: I'm particualrly interested to know what the value is with the gantry up the front of the machine and how much worse it is with the gantry in the middle
[17:44:45] <jmkasunich> email me your ini file, I'll see if I can duplicate the problem
[17:45:03] <robin_sz> Jymmm: the base of the gantry will do, or even the end carriage
[17:45:29] <robin_sz> Jymmm: I suspect you can push the left carriage back, and the right hand one will come forward etc
[17:45:43] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Well, I'm a lil pissed as when they installed the linear rails they went from a 3/8" backplate to a 1/4"
[17:46:02] <robin_sz> well, whatevere
[17:46:15] <robin_sz> just try that test if you get chance huh?
[17:46:45] <robin_sz> I suspect with the gantry mid-machine, it will be over 1mm of movement
[17:47:06] <Jymmm> robin_sz the backplate is the top of the gantry itself
[17:47:24] <Jymmm> thinner material, more flex
[17:48:00] <robin_sz> the other one to try is to put in somehting the same lenght as a router spindle
[17:48:13] <bpmw_> John, ok, i'll send it shortly. I will put velocity back to 0.17 for now cause I have a project to do today. Will check e-mail tommorow for response. Thanks again for you help!!
[17:48:16] <robin_sz> then apply 100N to the end, to simulate a cutting force
[17:48:33] <robin_sz> again, measure with a DTI
[17:49:10] <bpmw_> Hey Guys, Have a great day! Bye for now
[17:49:14] <robin_sz> bye ...
[17:49:30] <jmkasunich> bye
[18:03:50] <jmkasunich> ls
[18:03:52] <jmkasunich> oops
[18:04:28] <ValarQ> :)
[18:24:29] <xet7> How should I update BDI install? I just see errors when I dist-upgrade to sarge. Should I stay in testing?
[18:37:09] <jmkasunich> which BDI?
[18:58:51] <Jymmm> evening paul
[19:04:07] <paul_c> Afternoon Jymmm
[19:05:33] <robin_sz> fsking BT
[19:06:52] <jmkasunich> what has BT done?
[19:07:19] <robin_sz> scammed me .. agian
[19:08:10] <Jymmm> heh, the only thing that's gone right is buying this external USB hdd/cd enclosure... works awesome! Even from DOS (though only USB1.1 under DOS)
[19:08:21] <robin_sz> they phone up and offer a free package that cpas your local and national calls to 10p maximum .. no fixed charge etc
[19:08:48] <robin_sz> then you discover there is a committed spend of �750 a year ...
[19:08:55] <robin_sz> except they forgot to mention that
[19:08:58] <robin_sz> bastards
[19:09:11] <jmkasunich> you didn't read the fine print?
[19:09:18] <robin_sz> its a phone call ...
[19:09:30] <robin_sz> I just got an email with the "fine print"
[19:09:33] <jmkasunich> you bought something from a telemarketer? shame on you
[19:09:38] <jmkasunich> that just encourages them
[19:09:43] <Jymmm> what jmkasunich said
[19:09:45] <robin_sz> well, it is my phone company
[19:09:54] <robin_sz> still .. solve that on Monday ...
[19:10:02] <jmkasunich> so... they called you - that makes them a telemarketer
[19:10:05] <robin_sz> they just lost the account
[19:10:14] <jmkasunich> good...
[19:11:07] <Jymmm> robin_sz You said it when you started this.... 'Fscking BT' that's what BT is good at 'fscking their customers'. I know this and I've never even done business with them!
[19:11:32] <robin_sz> well, they are the national telco ...
[19:11:39] <robin_sz> that who provide the lines ..
[19:11:40] <Jymmm> In the words of Gomer Pyle.... "For shame, for shame, for shame"
[19:11:42] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: I thought you were in calif?
[19:11:47] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I am
[19:12:10] <jmkasunich> so how the fsck would you ever have the opportunity to do business with BT
[19:12:19] <jmkasunich> aka "British Telephone"
[19:12:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich : Being a SysAdmin and having remote offices globally
[19:12:40] <jmkasunich> I see
[19:12:58] <robin_sz> I thought you were a signmaker?
[19:13:34] <Jymmm> SysAdmin first
[19:13:37] <robin_sz> my, this is all very confusing
[19:14:04] <jmkasunich> sysadmin by day, signmaker by night?
[19:14:56] <AchiestDragon> better getting the line from bt and going with talktalk for the calls , or demon for adsl
[19:14:58] <paul_c> (lumberjack tune starts playing in the background....)
[19:15:28] <Jymmm> Nah, hate being SysAdmin. Good at it, just hate it. No opportunity to be creative or be appreciated for what you do... users are ungrateful bastards.
[19:15:52] <paul_c> Jymmm: read the BOHF files.
[19:16:06] <paul_c> BOFH
[19:16:15] <robin_sz> AchiestDragon: thats why they try and get you on a "committed to �750 spend on calls" trick ... to avoid you going VOIP ..
[19:17:56] <AchiestDragon> well got the blocking service here to stop nusance calls , unfortunatly finding out that if its an international number that calls you can not block it
[19:18:34] <AchiestDragon> so thats costing £10 a month from bt
[19:18:56] <robin_sz> ick
[19:19:51] <jmkasunich> drat
[19:20:25] <AchiestDragon> its one of those autimated you have won a trip to ... but theres no message , just a dead line for 30 seconds and hangs up
[19:20:59] <AchiestDragon> number withheld so cant find the source , get 1 call every day from the dam thing
[19:21:05] <Jymmm> paul_c: Well, I'm not as bad as BOFH, but if someone fucks with me I just drop their ass to DOS and all is well again.
[19:22:58] <Jymmm> paul_c though I normally don't do T/S either. Unless A VIP or something.
[19:23:02] <xet7> Well, I messed up my BDI install when trying to dist-upgrade to sarge, and I still don't know how to install newest version of EMC etc.
[19:23:21] <xet7> so I'm installin BDI again
[19:23:30] <AchiestDragon> ok tryed the live rc46 cd , it gets half way though booting and then fails unable to read disk , and disk is good
[19:23:31] <jmkasunich> xet7: which BDI?
[19:23:59] <AchiestDragon> dont think that version likes my cd drive
[19:24:25] <Jymmm> AchiestDragon you check the MD5SUM ?
[19:24:25] <xet7> 4.2.0
[19:24:45] <AchiestDragon> no
[19:25:10] <paul_c> How much memory ?
[19:25:16] <AchiestDragon> will check it
[19:25:21] <AchiestDragon> 256mb
[19:26:56] <paul_c> run memtest86 - It is on the CD..
[19:29:14] <AchiestDragon> :( the checksums are diferent
[19:31:24] <AchiestDragon> should be adcc7aebeab2c5b6a1969a7c80b7b183 and its a131525cd3386ff85021dcb48f6374d5
[19:31:37] <jmkasunich> not a good CD then
[19:32:07] <AchiestDragon> thats the diference on the download from what the site says it should be
[19:32:18] <AchiestDragon> the cd is the same as the download
[19:32:23] <jmkasunich> download may have been corrupted
[19:33:03] <AchiestDragon> from http://www.wildrice.com/emc/
[19:34:11] <xet7> Is there newer version than bdi-4.20.iso
[19:34:23] <jmkasunich> I don't think so
[19:34:55] <jmkasunich> what exactly are you trying to do?
[19:35:13] <AchiestDragon> well trying to download it again , another 1hr
[19:35:38] <jmkasunich> sorry Ach, I was talking to xet7
[19:36:01] <paul_c> BDI-4.23 is the latest version....
[19:36:18] <jmkasunich> is it publically available?
[19:37:07] <paul_c> will be in a day or two.
[19:37:33] <jmkasunich> what is the newest that xet7 can download today?
[19:38:07] <robin_sz> im still wondering what is too old about 4.20 that makes it unuseable by him
[19:38:33] <jmkasunich> I'm still waiting for him to answer my question: what is he trying to do?
[19:38:45] <robin_sz> guess we'll never know ;)
[19:38:54] <xet7> hey I'll tell
[19:39:07] <xet7> I want to modify tkEnc
[19:39:10] <xet7> user interface
[19:39:28] <xet7> and that's why I would like to have newest version
[19:39:44] <xet7> have there been any updates to it after BDI 4.20 ?
[19:39:53] <jmkasunich> you want the newest version of EMC then...
[19:40:08] <xet7> yes
[19:40:19] <jmkasunich> BDI gets you a distro and kernel that will run EMC, and a snapshot of EMC itself
[19:40:34] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: emc2 as well?
[19:40:42] <jmkasunich> you can continue to use the same BDI distro and kernel for years while downloading newer EMC whenever you want
[19:41:01] <jmkasunich> ValarQ: yes, BDI-4.30 will run both
[19:41:23] <jmkasunich> but you only get a snapshot of the BDI-4 branch of EMC
[19:41:28] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: ok, is there som .deb package for that?
[19:41:48] <jmkasunich> to run emc2, or to run later versions of the branch than are on the CD, you dl the source and compile
[19:42:09] <jmkasunich> there are .debs for some versions of the BDI-4 branch, not for emc2
[19:42:28] <jmkasunich> info about how to download the source is on the wiki, url in a sec
[19:43:20] <jmkasunich> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Install
[19:44:03] <jmkasunich> note - the wiki page tells you how to download the bdi-4 branch, downloading emc2 is only slightly different
[19:48:15] <xet7> Is it safe to apt-get update with testing? Trying to upgrade to sarge messed the system.
[19:48:29] <jmkasunich> that is a question for Paul
[19:48:55] <jmkasunich> I just do apt-get update, without specifying anything else, and it does the right thing
[19:49:12] <robin_sz> errm
[19:49:16] <paul_c> Use sarge (a.k.a. Stable)
[19:49:34] <paul_c> and don't use dist-upgrade
[19:49:43] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: apt-get update doesnt actually update any packages afaik.
[19:49:54] <jmkasunich> I know... xet7 said update
[19:49:55] <paul_c> do it section by section - Less likely to break stuff.
[19:50:03] <jmkasunich> did he mean upgrade?
[19:50:08] <robin_sz> think so
[19:50:12] <xet7> ok, and dist-upgrade then I mean :)
[19:50:25] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: update only updates the package lists ... nothing else
[19:50:25] <jmkasunich> I haven't done an upgrade, and would be quite reluctant to try it ;-)
[19:50:38] <robin_sz> oh, I do upgrade all the time on standard machines ...
[19:50:46] <jmkasunich> understood - I just went by what xet7 said
[19:50:48] <robin_sz> hell, soem of them run it twice a day as a cron job
[19:51:09] <robin_sz> but yeah, I can see how a dist-upgrade might screw a BDI
[19:51:32] <paul_c> yes, but in the case of rc46, you are looking at a system that hasn't been upgraded for ~18 months.
[19:52:11] <robin_sz> theres probably some magic you can do to make sure that certain packages dont get touiched .. but I expect you'd hit dependency hell at some point
[19:52:14] <jmkasunich> xet7 is talking about 4.20... it was the other guy (AchiestDragon) who has rc46
[19:54:50] <paul_c> 4.20 is 3 or 4 months old - Would still upgrade in stages though.
[19:58:05] <paul_c> While 4.23 installs on a SCSI disk... Tea time.
[20:20:59] <AchiestDragon_> download still gives md5sum as a131525cd3386ff85021dcb48f6374d5 :(
[20:22:52] <jmkasunich> where did you download from?
[20:23:11] <AchiestDragon_> http://www.wildrice.com/emc/
[20:23:50] <jmkasunich> ValarQ: you asked about EMC2 on BDI-4.20... here is the wiki page with the details: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Compile_EMC2
[20:25:14] <jmkasunich> AchiestDragon_: you may want to check one of the other mirrors, see http://www.linuxcnc.org/bdi/
[20:25:33] <jmkasunich> any particular reason for useing BDI-Live instead of BDI-4?
[20:25:40] <AchiestDragon_> its saying its 197.1Mb
[20:26:20] <AchiestDragon_> want to try it on the laptop , and dont want to have to scrub xp to put linux on
[20:26:25] <jmkasunich> ok
[20:26:57] <AchiestDragon_> im wating to get a biger hd for it then i can have it dual boot
[20:28:25] <AchiestDragon_> its only got a 40 Gb and want at least an 80G for it , but i have some apps on it that need xp so stuck with having to keep it on
[20:28:35] <jmkasunich> I understand
[20:29:04] <AchiestDragon_> AchiestDragon_ is now known as AchiestDragon
[20:29:52] <jmkasunich> I have an old and crappy laptop that I dual-boot W95 and linux on... I didn't want to fight with setting up dual boot, and I also didn't have large disks, so I just got a spare drive for linux
[20:30:10] <jmkasunich> on my laptop I can change drives in 30 seconds or less with no tools
[20:31:05] <AchiestDragon> have been thinking about doing that but on this theres 1 screw to remove to chang the drives
[20:31:31] <jmkasunich> yeah, most laptops aren't as easy as mine - I think Dell's have at least 2 screws
[20:31:45] <AchiestDragon> i recon i may be able to leve the screw out , but run the risk of the hd dropping out
[20:31:59] <jmkasunich> there is also the problem of hauling around the second drive without damaging it
[20:32:41] <jmkasunich> I found some nice foam lined plasic boxes that were originally used to ship spare Compaq laptop drives
[20:34:55] <AchiestDragon> i got a spair 120G drive here but its a 3.5" one so wont fit , thought about geting a usb external case for it
[20:35:24] <AchiestDragon> but not shure if i could boot from it that way
[20:35:39] <jmkasunich> I doubt it... need an OS loaded to run the USB stuff
[20:36:26] <AchiestDragon> also thought about getting a 1Gb compact flash , but same problem
[20:44:59] <robin_sz> some mobos seem to support some sort of USB stuff natively .. like USb mice and keyboards for example
[20:45:19] <jmkasunich> but booting off a USB disk?
[20:45:32] <robin_sz> not knowing
[20:53:42] <AchiestDragon> soem years ago there used to be a linux boot program that you ran from dos/ winodows and it baicaly exited window/dos and loaded linux without restarting the machine
[20:55:53] <AchiestDragon> but not seen it for a long time in the newer distros , was with the slackware distro ver 2.5 (in 1995)
[20:57:58] <Jymmm> Tell ya what... I'll try booting off my ext USB hdd and see what happens =)
[21:00:38] <ValarQ> jmkasunich: thnx for the url
[21:03:22] <Jymmm> my laptop bios doens't support booting from anything other than hdd/fdd/cd
[21:05:24] <anonimasu> AchiestDragon: loadlin
[21:05:31] <AchiestDragon> yes
[21:09:25] <LawrenceG> anyone tried one of the following with emc?
[21:09:28] <LawrenceG> http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate/
[21:09:42] <LawrenceG> http://www.graflex.org/klotz/software/griffin/
[21:09:59] <LawrenceG> seems to have linux support
[21:13:00] <LawrenceG> http://sowerbutts.com/powermate/ more linux support
[21:13:25] <robin_sz> its sort of the wheel off a wheel-mouse, but without the mouse?
[21:14:13] <LawrenceG> yep... a rotary pulse generator with a push button.... would make a nice jog interface for emc
[21:14:24] <robin_sz> hmmm
[21:14:55] <robin_sz> I guess the jog wheel doesnt need to be realtime
[21:15:00] <LawrenceG> the button could step through the axis or change the step size
[21:15:20] <Jymmm> analog joystick seems simpler
[21:15:23] <Jymmm> KISS
[21:16:19] <Jymmm> robin_sz Um the JOTSTICK port?! DUH!
[21:16:24] <Jymmm> JOYSTICK
[21:16:30] <robin_sz> the what?
[21:16:53] <robin_sz> no such thing is there?
[21:17:18] <Jymmm> LOL... The DB15 connectorusually next to the sound card ports
[21:17:23] <Jymmm> LOL... The DB15 connector usually next to the sound card ports
[21:17:30] <LawrenceG> Fast instructions to add kernel support for this device. Bring up your kernel config. Under USB select the Griffin Powermate module.
[21:17:37] <robin_sz> isnt one on my laptop ...
[21:17:45] <Jymmm> oh well
[21:17:52] <robin_sz> or the either of the dell desktops .
[21:18:05] <robin_sz> wait .. I'll check the wifes machine ...
[21:18:51] <robin_sz> sorry dude ... dont htink they fit them to computers these days
[21:19:28] <robin_sz> is this the "games port" they used to do 10 years ago?
[21:19:53] <robin_sz> wasnt it usually a DIN plug?
[21:20:21] <Jymmm> the instrumpent use DIN, but the port is DB15 on the back of the PC
[21:20:37] <robin_sz> well, seems to be long gone anyway
[21:21:39] <Jymmm> http://itc.ua/img/dpk/2003/1/!SB-Live!-5.1-Digital_2.jpg
[21:22:21] <robin_sz> shrug ...
[21:22:33] <robin_sz> even the Dell "gaming" machines dont have one ...
[21:22:54] <Jymmm> I don't buy dell.
[21:23:14] <robin_sz> HP?
[21:23:20] <robin_sz> IBM?
[21:24:54] <robin_sz> * robin_sz checks the HP site
[21:26:03] <robin_sz> nope ... seems not. i declare the joystick port dead. it has ceased to be.
[21:26:40] <anonimasu> yep
[21:26:41] <anonimasu> that's true
[21:27:37] <jepler> "joystick port"? You plug a joystick in the USB port. Where have you been the last ten years?
[21:27:39] <Jymmm> and a lot dont give you serial, paralell, or even PS/2 ports anymore
[21:28:09] <robin_sz> jepler: I've been here .. its Jymmm whose still living in 1972
[21:28:11] <Jymmm> I have yet to see a router with a USB port.
[21:28:26] <robin_sz> Jymmm: you are kidding, right?
[21:28:40] <Jymmm> robin_sz Cisco 7200
[21:29:01] <robin_sz> most small office routers have USB
[21:29:17] <Jymmm> for console
[21:29:23] <Jymmm> not sm office bs
[21:29:43] <robin_sz> for connectivity to laptops without an ethernet port
[21:30:45] <robin_sz> so .. anyway, lets forget analogu joystick for jog .. its dead
[21:31:29] <Jymmm> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/474/pswdrec_7200.html
[21:32:33] <robin_sz> congratulations, is this some weird attempt to prove yourself wrong?
[21:32:40] <robin_sz> /me gets bored
[21:33:03] <anonimasu> lol
[21:33:11] <robin_sz> so ...
[21:33:40] <jmkasunich> even I don't think the old analog joystick is very usefull these days
[21:34:09] <robin_sz> I just remember them never having a zero in the middle and creeping off all the time
[21:34:20] <anonimasu> joy togther with a mill
[21:34:28] <anonimasu> hm, although my trustmaster never did creep..
[21:34:31] <robin_sz> that shuttle/jog knob looked neat though
[21:34:41] <anonimasu> even though it survived through multiple dogfights.
[21:34:54] <anonimasu> and several bombing raids..
[21:34:55] <anonimasu> :D
[21:35:23] <jmkasunich> the real prob with the analog joystick is that they were too fscking cheap to spring for an A/D
[21:35:27] <anonimasu> I'd love to get a USB to joyport adapter.. and use it for ms flightsim..
[21:35:56] <robin_sz> USB has taken over for HID peripherals
[21:36:02] <jmkasunich> it used a 555ish timer ckt, duration determined by the resistor in the stick
[21:36:20] <jmkasunich> in the days of DOS, it was fairly easy (but time consuming) to measure the duration
[21:36:29] <jmkasunich> with multi-tasking, it gets ugly
[21:36:43] <anonimasu> I wonder if they still sell them
[21:37:03] <jmkasunich> the sticks, or cards with the port?
[21:37:28] <anonimasu> the sticks
[21:37:46] <anonimasu> the new sticks isnt as fun.. :/
[21:37:58] <jmkasunich> dunno... but all they are is a comple of pots - any modern stick could be gutted to work with the old port I suspect
[21:38:24] <AchiestDragon> usb ok , but theres a compulsary £1500 fee to pay to use the usb name if you develop a divice with one in
[21:38:41] <robin_sz> nah
[21:38:52] <anonimasu> http://www.avsim.com/pages/archives/thrust/thrust.htm
[21:39:02] <anonimasu> is there really?
[21:39:05] <robin_sz> AchiestDragon: you sure?
[21:39:09] <AchiestDragon> yes
[21:39:15] <robin_sz> sure you are sure?
[21:39:17] <anonimasu> I think that was with firewire..
[21:39:30] <anonimasu> that's why it never took off since apple requested royalty on all devices using it
[21:39:47] <AchiestDragon> was doing a gnu project that would have used one , but had to remove usb suport because of it
[21:40:01] <robin_sz> well, I presume that whoever made the maska for the USB interface chip must have paid it already
[21:40:48] <AchiestDragon> well you can use it if you dont call the interface usb
[21:41:23] <jmkasunich> robin: you think that matters? The folks with the IP want to be paid twice (at least)
[21:41:26] <AchiestDragon> but it is relivent to the final product as well as the chips and drivers
[21:41:43] <robin_sz> well, fsck em.
[21:41:57] <robin_sz> URL?
[21:43:06] <robin_sz> ah OK founbd it
[21:43:07] <jepler> USB 2.0 Adopter's Agreement - USB 2.0 Adopters Agreement allows a signing company to participate in a reciprocal, royalty-free licensing arrangement for compliant products. Please review the agreement terms for specific details
[21:43:20] <robin_sz> yep
[21:43:41] <robin_sz> you only need to pay the $1500 of you wnant to use the USB logo and claim compliance
[21:43:56] <robin_sz> and you get a vendor ID number wtc
[21:43:58] <robin_sz> etc
[21:44:36] <AchiestDragon> and if you want to register with them as a developer for access to there info and specs
[21:45:03] <anonimasu> yes?
[21:46:26] <jepler> there is enough information "out there" to develop USB devices on your own, as well as a good selection of inexpensive chips for USB devices (ftdi, for instance)
[21:46:56] <jepler> (and as far as doing it on your own, there's some guy who has a low-speed USB stack for a small AVR microcontroller)
[21:47:09] <AchiestDragon> yes , now but 2 years ago the only way to get the info was to register with them
[21:48:24] <robin_sz> well, things change
[21:48:57] <robin_sz> the FTDI chipsets make it so easy ...
[21:49:09] <robin_sz> all the info is out there and you can call it USB
[21:49:15] <robin_sz> but just not use the logo
[21:50:13] <AchiestDragon> hard when you buy the connectors and the logo is stamped on
[21:50:29] <AchiestDragon> well moulded in
[21:50:40] <robin_sz> but thats OK
[21:51:09] <robin_sz> the guy who made the cable has built it to spec and paid the fee
[21:51:32] <robin_sz> put another way ...
[21:51:44] <robin_sz> I fitted a Sony radio to the car I just sold ...
[21:52:10] <robin_sz> are you suggetsing that the entire car should have passed some sort of Sony test? and paid them a fee?
[21:53:39] <AchiestDragon> maybe not but if you where implying that the car was 100% sony compatible then you should , if you where manufacturing them
[21:54:03] <AchiestDragon> if there licence stated it
[21:54:47] <AchiestDragon> as its a patant violation and not in the limitations of the licence
[21:55:02] <robin_sz> well, whatever ... including a USB compatible cable does not imply the entire device is approved
[21:55:19] <AchiestDragon> tryicky subject best left to loyers
[21:55:36] <robin_sz> just ship it without a cable if you are that worried
[21:56:19] <AchiestDragon> well at the time there was not the info there is now , and its not so muc of a problem as it was
[21:56:28] <robin_sz> /me nods
[21:56:54] <robin_sz> certainly the device we shall not mention has not had any of that sort of trouble
[21:57:02] <AchiestDragon> btw no space before the /
[23:00:42] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich is now known as jmk_away
[23:03:20] <Jymmmm> Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm_