#emc | Logs for 2005-07-18

[00:00:03] <robin_sz> see any car transmission
[00:00:14] <Yuga> robin_sz.. ya
[00:00:23] <robin_sz> usually helical
[00:00:29] <robin_sz> straight cut are too noisy
[00:00:29] <anonimasu_> dave_e: I'd love to see he's router at work.. my mill wont do faster stuff then 2m/min
[00:00:47] <anonimasu_> it's quite a bit away from it..
[00:01:00] <anonimasu_> *checks datrondynamics.com again*
[00:01:00] <robin_sz> anonimasu_: you need to see may laser :)
[00:01:01] <dave_e> I'm good for about 5 m/min
[00:01:10] <dave_e> rapids
[00:01:15] <robin_sz> 84m/min rapids :)
[00:01:17] <anonimasu_> yeah
[00:01:34] <robin_sz> some of the more modern lasers hit 200m/min
[00:01:46] <dave_e> accel is 20 so nothing is instantanous
[00:01:56] <anonimasu_> hm ok
[00:01:59] <Yuga> ok... i just hate friggin site's that dont have pricing on them!!!
[00:02:20] <anonimasu_> robin_sz: the datrondynamics machines apparently has 600W spindles..
[00:02:21] <anonimasu_> at most
[00:02:26] <dave_e> sure...grab you first then lay the price on you ;-(
[00:02:37] <robin_sz> bait and switch
[00:02:45] <dave_e> be back
[00:02:45] <Yuga> dave_e... ya.. pisses one off :)
[00:03:23] <Yuga> ok... another question.... y would i use servo's instead of stepper motor's (yes... lot's of stupid q's)
[00:03:35] <robin_sz> well, whats your budget?
[00:03:48] <robin_sz> how big is the machine?
[00:03:55] <Yuga> robin_sz... i would say zero... but i dont think i am getting it for that :)
[00:04:01] <Yuga> aslittle as possible
[00:04:06] <anonimasu_> steppers is the way to do
[00:04:07] <robin_sz> steppers then
[00:04:07] <anonimasu_> go
[00:04:20] <robin_sz> and some geckodrives
[00:04:22] <Yuga> the machine is going to be 3m X 2m <--- it's kinda huge
[00:04:23] <anonimasu_> if you had lots of budget, and were more concerned with performance > price
[00:04:34] <robin_sz> 3x2 huh
[00:04:37] <robin_sz> hmmm
[00:04:37] <Yuga> ya.. those geckodrives look quite awsome
[00:04:47] <anonimasu_> servos would be the way, but steppers will do just fine :)
[00:04:49] <robin_sz> pushing towards servo territory at 3x2
[00:05:00] <Yuga> robin_sz... y?
[00:05:06] <anonimasu_> hm, yeah
[00:05:08] <robin_sz> a 2m gantry will be kinda heavy
[00:05:27] <robin_sz> triple stack NEMA34s I figure ...
[00:05:33] <Yuga> 1200 ounce/inch stepper motor
[00:05:45] <robin_sz> whats an ounce?
[00:05:50] <Yuga> lol
[00:05:52] <anonimasu_> got any specs for thoose motors
[00:06:01] <Yuga> 1 sec...
[00:06:03] <anonimasu_> how heavy will the gantry be?
[00:06:07] <robin_sz> are you american?
[00:06:39] <Yuga> no... not american.. but all the sites are
[00:06:43] <Yuga> which doesnt help
[00:07:11] <robin_sz> well, stick to Nm so the rest of us can understand
[00:07:12] <Yuga> http://www.campbelldesigns.com/stepper-motors.php <--- bottom stepper
[00:08:05] <Yuga> u think the bottom botor would be able to do it?
[00:08:15] <robin_sz> possibly too big
[00:08:31] <Yuga> to big?
[00:08:53] <robin_sz> nema42, will have a lot of intertia
[00:08:55] <anonimasu_> the inertia is horrid too..
[00:09:05] <robin_sz> yeah
[00:09:14] <anonimasu_> if you want speed you will have to match the inertia with your gantry weight
[00:09:27] <robin_sz> intertia matching is essential
[00:09:43] <anonimasu_> with a router like that you would have to dual drive it anyway..
[00:09:50] <anonimasu_> robin_sz: correct me if I am wrong..
[00:10:11] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hates dual drives
[00:10:27] <Yuga> ok... so you would rather recomend 2 640 oz/in steppers? one on each side?
[00:10:32] <robin_sz> twisted metal, bent gantries :)
[00:10:53] <anonimasu_> or well a single stepper that drives both sides
[00:11:00] <anonimasu_> with a connecting shaft
[00:11:02] <robin_sz> yeah, corssover axle
[00:11:06] <robin_sz> crossover
[00:11:10] <anonimasu_> yep
[00:11:18] <Yuga> anonimasu... the 1200oz.in one that drives both sides?
[00:11:21] <robin_sz> bit of toothed belt gearing ...
[00:11:28] <Yuga> think that would work best?
[00:11:31] <robin_sz> and a decent motor
[00:11:35] <anonimasu_> no idea
[00:11:56] <Yuga> anonimasu... not even able to guess?
[00:11:59] <robin_sz> liek a Sanyo Denki nema 34, 3 stack ... does similar sort of torque with half the intertia
[00:12:00] <anonimasu_> no :(
[00:12:27] <robin_sz> you need to run it through "motioneering" to really find out
[00:12:29] <anonimasu_> I'd run motioneering and calc it
[00:12:42] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hi fives anonimasu_
[00:12:55] <anonimasu_> :D
[00:12:57] <Yuga> not a clue what motioneering is
[00:13:00] <anonimasu_> wait a sec
[00:13:01] <robin_sz> google
[00:13:16] <anonimasu_> http://www.motionvillage.com/motioneering/app_engine/
[00:14:33] <Yuga> friggin hell... wouldnt have a clue how that works :<
[00:14:48] <anonimasu_> oh, download & play with it
[00:14:55] <Yuga> anonimasu... doing so
[00:14:57] <robin_sz> well, its easier to try and figure it out on the screen
[00:14:59] <anonimasu_> it's pretty self explainatory :)
[00:15:09] <robin_sz> than it is to rework the router two or three times
[00:15:10] <anonimasu_> calculating it by hand is tough
[00:15:56] <robin_sz> right ... bedtime
[00:16:12] <robin_sz> happy easter!
[00:16:37] <anonimasu_> night
[00:17:21] <Yuga> friggin hell.. the link on the site dont work
[00:17:44] <anonimasu_> http://www.danahermotion.com/Service_NA_Frame.asp?target=../../Software/Kollmorgen/Motioneering/Motioneering_App_Engine_page.htm
[00:18:46] <Yuga> cool.. that one is working.. the other one wasnt
[00:19:35] <Yuga> anonimasu... got any recomendations on what motor's i should look at?
[00:20:03] <anonimasu_> no
[00:20:04] <anonimasu_> :/
[00:20:04] <Yuga> and what board i should use to connect the gecko drives to my pc?
[00:20:10] <anonimasu_> the paralell port..
[00:20:18] <anonimasu_> but I am not sure what requirements thoose steppers have
[00:20:22] <Yuga> guess parralell is the easyest?
[00:20:27] <anonimasu_> if the voltage&current are enough
[00:20:52] <Yuga> gecko drives goes up 2 9 amp's i think.. so i'm sure i will be save
[00:21:06] <Yuga> was looking at this board. http://www.campbelldesigns.com/breakout-board.php
[00:21:06] <anonimasu_> hm, thoose are large steppers :)
[00:23:18] <Yuga> i lied... 7 amp's 80 v
[00:25:36] <Yuga> 2,3,4,5 PHASE, CLOSED LOOP
[00:25:37] <Yuga> stepper motor's... what the hell are they on about?
[00:26:53] <fenn> jeez Yuga don't listen to robin
[00:27:00] <fenn> he loves to spend money on stuff
[00:27:23] <fenn> get a $75 hobbycnc board and little steppers and learn on that
[00:27:40] <fenn> so when you mess up you don't blow your $500 driver electronics box
[00:27:56] <fenn> and a 5 axis router isn't really such a big deal
[00:28:16] <fenn> cheaper than buying lots of weird bits
[00:28:32] <anonimasu_> fenn: how about cam programs?
[00:29:06] <fenn> http://www.rainnea.com/cnc_5axis.htm
[00:29:16] <fenn> CNC toolkit is free 5 axis cam
[00:29:27] <fenn> you have to have 3dsmax i think?
[00:29:28] <anonimasu_> fenn: if you own 3dsmax
[00:29:47] <anonimasu_> fenn: 3dsmax is 5000$
[00:29:55] <fenn> huh?
[00:30:02] <Yuga> got 3dsmax :)
[00:30:07] <anonimasu_> that's the retail price of it..
[00:30:26] <fenn> well that's dumb
[00:30:55] <fenn> i thought it was just a 3d modeling program like rhino-3d
[00:31:02] <anonimasu_> it's for making movies and stuff..
[00:31:14] <anonimasu_> hence the pricetag
[00:31:27] <fenn> moves cost millions and millions, why would they charge only 5000?
[00:31:49] <anonimasu_> oh, that's for one seat..
[00:31:49] <Yuga> maya = ultimate 3d software
[00:32:12] <fenn> *cough overrated cough cough*
[00:32:24] <anonimasu_> dosent matter
[00:32:30] <anonimasu_> if you are going to do 5 axis you need a program
[00:33:16] <anonimasu_> :)
[00:33:53] <anonimasu_> over here atleast
[00:34:04] <Jacky^> hack from yourself :P
[00:34:07] <fenn> bah
[00:34:27] <fenn> charging $5000 for some numbers is stupid
[00:34:43] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ agree
[00:34:56] <anonimasu_> fenn: i've yet to see any opensource cam program.. :)
[00:35:59] <fenn> well, i spent all day today blasting my brain with multivariate calculus so that i could write a really good one
[00:36:09] <Jacky^> anonimasu_: you're not the only one :((
[00:36:31] <fenn> you speak german right anon? try out gCAD3D for me eh?
[00:36:54] <anonimasu_> no I dont :/
[00:37:05] <anonimasu_> alex does :)
[00:37:49] <Jacky^> fenn: it's open source ?
[00:38:11] <fenn> Jacky^: i think so, yes
[00:38:29] <Jacky^> never heard
[00:38:40] <fenn> its in english but i had no way to verify the gcode output cause my EMC is borked right now
[00:38:57] <fenn> and some of the functions are still in german
[00:39:13] <fenn> reads iges and dxf and lwo and more
[00:39:50] <Jacky^> mm, i cannot help :(
[00:42:05] <Jacky^> anonimasu_: how proceed your jobs ?
[00:42:28] <anonimasu_> got a day off tomorrow
[00:42:33] <anonimasu_> going to try to get some stuff machines
[00:42:34] <anonimasu_> machined..
[00:42:42] <anonimasu_> the toolchange is more on hold since I got my new lathe
[00:43:05] <dave_e> drastic...you are going to produce something. ;-)
[00:43:22] <Jacky^> nice.. got some pictures ?
[00:43:25] <anonimasu_> nope
[00:43:27] <Jacky^> not yet ?
[00:43:29] <anonimasu_> just the same as I posted
[00:43:31] <Jacky^> okay ..
[00:43:44] <anonimasu_> got it stripped in molecules now
[00:43:54] <Jacky^> :)
[00:44:08] <anonimasu_> going to replace/clean everything
[00:44:10] <anonimasu_> and paint it
[00:45:29] <anonimasu_> :)
[00:46:19] <Jacky^> make: *** [videohook] Error 2
[00:46:25] <Jacky^> ouch :\ stop
[00:46:33] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ tired
[00:46:48] <Jacky^> I spent a lot of time :(��
[00:47:30] <Jacky^> well, apt-get install ffmpeg !
[00:48:55] <Jacky^> without mp3lame support, doh !
[00:49:28] <Jacky^> Debian's binary...
[00:49:34] <Jacky^> :(((
[00:59:44] <dave_e> take care... I'm gone.
[01:50:52] <Jacky^> good night
[02:31:47] <Jymmm> Yo
[02:32:53] <anonimasu_> night
[02:32:54] <anonimasu_> :)
[02:47:12] <Jymmm> Night? it's only 1900
[03:22:56] <fenn> alright.. calling all 8th graders
[03:23:26] <cradek> I bet we're all ex-eighth graders
[03:23:43] <fenn> with 13 watts of power, can we reach .6 m/s in 1.5 m travel with a 100kg load
[03:23:59] <fenn> this is so easy i can't figure out how to do it :)
[03:24:07] <cradek> this is a case for UNITS man!
[03:24:11] <fenn> i know
[03:24:13] <fenn> its sad
[03:24:36] <jmk_away> constant power or constant torque?
[03:25:05] <fenn> well it's really constant torque, but let's try to solve the simple problem first
[03:25:34] <jmk_away> why? just do the one you care about
[03:25:39] <fenn> arg
[03:25:43] <jmk_away> const torq means max power at the end
[03:25:52] <jmk_away> P = 0.6m/s * F
[03:25:53] <fenn> right
[03:25:57] <jmk_away> so you know F
[03:26:06] <jmk_away> A = F/M, so you know A
[03:26:37] <jmk_away> t = 0.6m/s / A, so you know t
[03:26:53] <jmk_away> d = 1/2 at^2, so you know d
[03:27:00] <jmk_away> is d < 1.5m?
[03:27:09] <fenn> thanks jmk mybrain isnt working right now
[03:27:48] <jmk_away> I know the feeling... I was flailing around with kbuild for nearly 5 hours last night, finally gave up
[03:27:55] <jmk_away> today I figured it out in 15 mins
[03:28:57] <jmk_away> now to make that accel problem really fun, do it in imperial units :-(
[03:29:53] <cradek> how many ergs in an oersted-foot-pound?
[03:30:21] <jmk_away> bleh
[03:31:51] <jmk_away> and what's with this oz-in stuff anyway
[03:32:34] <fenn> they should average the torque curve and give you average power output from 0-800 rpm
[03:32:42] <fenn> (for steppers at least)
[03:34:33] <fenn> hehe i'm still stuck on the first line :)
[03:34:37] <fenn> i'm going to bed
[03:37:38] <jmk_away> not a bad idea... I was up till 5am this morning, gotta work tomorrow
[05:01:37] <Jymmm> Abybody left?
[05:01:51] <SWP_Away> nope. Good night :)
[05:02:03] <Jymmm> G'Night
[05:10:54] <Jymmm> Sigh.... 178MB/s
[08:52:47] <alex_joni> fenn: around?
[10:17:32] <A-L-P-H-A> I ate him
[10:17:35] <A-L-P-H-A> he was yummy
[10:18:39] <alex_joni> hope you won't get an indigestion
[10:18:46] <A-L-P-H-A> argh.
[10:18:50] <A-L-P-H-A> yesterday was aweful
[10:18:56] <A-L-P-H-A> seriously... I'm lactose intolerant.
[10:19:02] <A-L-P-H-A> and I had a glass of milk with chocolate cake.
[10:19:12] <A-L-P-H-A> I was gassy for 8 hrs.
[10:19:27] <A-L-P-H-A> it was like a system flush... except with gas in my stomach.
[10:22:46] <alex_joni> heh
[10:22:48] <alex_joni> not nice
[10:36:01] <A-L-P-H-A> nope, not at all.
[10:56:09] <anonimasu_> morning
[10:58:04] <anonimasu_> that's up today?
[11:11:51] <alex_joni> nuttin much
[11:11:54] <alex_joni> catching up on work
[11:11:58] <alex_joni> how's vacation?
[11:17:33] <anonimasu_> nice
[11:17:35] <anonimasu_> just woke up
[11:20:04] <anonimasu_> started to write some code
[11:29:27] <alex_joni> have a brake
[11:29:53] <A-L-P-H-A> have a smoke.
[11:30:01] <A-L-P-H-A> hire a concubine.
[11:30:12] <alex_joni> heh.. thought those weren't for hire
[11:30:12] <A-L-P-H-A> drink on the job.
[11:30:16] <A-L-P-H-A> flirt with the secretary
[11:30:42] <A-L-P-H-A> concubines are like just a masters mistress/slave women.
[11:30:48] <anonimasu_> that sounds like a plan
[11:30:53] <A-L-P-H-A> used specifically for sex.
[11:31:12] <A-L-P-H-A> I think they're illegal now... but I haven't had the oppurtunity to test it out.
[11:31:27] <anonimasu_> lol
[11:31:48] <A-L-P-H-A> could you have a concubine, if you're single male? Wouldn't that be called your GF?
[11:32:01] <A-L-P-H-A> that being the girl/concubine in question.
[11:32:16] <A-L-P-H-A> if you had multiple... maybe it would be...
[11:32:26] <A-L-P-H-A> like you have to feed them (dinner, and you pay).
[11:32:31] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[11:32:55] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll get off this train of though, because it's rationalized quiet easily in my head to equate my exGF to a concubine.
[11:33:12] <A-L-P-H-A> hey! look! over there... something shiney
[11:33:51] <A-L-P-H-A> shiny
[11:38:00] <anonimasu_> lol
[11:39:51] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ yawns
[11:40:10] <alex_joni> ditto
[11:44:44] <A-L-P-H-A> 7am... I should go to sleep
[11:44:47] <A-L-P-H-A> later folks
[11:45:24] <alex_joni> later
[11:52:42] <anonimasu_> laters :)
[12:09:38] <Jacky^> morning
[12:14:40] <anonimasu_> tea tiem
[12:14:42] <anonimasu_> time :)
[12:14:45] <anonimasu_> morning jacky
[12:17:02] <Jacky^> hey anonimasu_
[12:26:20] <Jacky^> anonimasu_: machining ?
[12:26:25] <anonimasu_> nope
[12:26:26] <anonimasu_> coding
[12:26:30] <Jacky^> :)
[12:26:34] <anonimasu_> currently drinking tea :)
[12:26:39] <Jacky^> ;P
[13:31:33] <Jacky^> it seem to me that roughing toolpath is useful if there are big empty areas on the piece, otherwise not, right ?
[13:32:38] <anonimasu_> roughing is useful for roughing
[13:32:47] <anonimasu_> you usually rough then do a finish pass
[13:33:00] <anonimasu_> to get within spec
[13:33:07] <Jacky^> in some case, it seem tale more time
[13:33:12] <Jacky^> take*
[13:33:26] <Jacky^> because toolpath become more complex :\
[13:34:18] <Jacky^> so, maybe is better to do all in one with ballnose, without roughing..
[13:34:59] <anonimasu_> not really
[13:35:18] <anonimasu_> roughing means more stepover..
[13:35:28] <anonimasu_> hence faster cutting times
[13:35:40] <anonimasu_> and a bit different strategy..
[13:35:52] <anonimasu_> when you finish you usually have a very fine stepover to get a good surface finish
[13:37:47] <Jacky^> I found useful to calculate finish toolpath using a small ballnose(3 mm) in 3D relief
[13:38:08] <Jacky^> this remove some material exceed
[13:38:57] <anonimasu_> Well roughing is faster then finishing
[13:38:58] <anonimasu_> :D
[13:39:03] <Jacky^> when first toolpath was with 6 mm ballnose
[13:40:21] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ confused
[13:40:52] <Jacky^> i'm missing something
[13:41:25] <Jacky^> maybe I should select the vector before calculate latest toolpath..
[13:42:34] <anonimasu_> what are you using?
[13:42:39] <Jacky^> tool do not pass again in the same points that are finished
[13:42:45] <Jacky^> artcam pro
[13:42:48] <anonimasu_> ah
[13:43:48] <Jacky^> have a nice features
[13:44:11] <Jacky^> but it's a bit difficult to find the right strategy
[13:50:48] <Jacky^> anonimasu_: have you seen the inkpot I made ?
[13:51:08] <Jacky^> inkpot stand
[13:57:15] <anonimasu_> Jacky^: no
[13:58:30] <Jacky^> http://www.roboitalia.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-1273
[13:59:06] <Jacky^> which tool would you use to machining that ?
[13:59:23] <Jacky^> wood..
[13:59:24] <anonimasu_> nice
[13:59:30] <anonimasu_> are there very much detail?
[13:59:39] <Jacky^> should be a gift for my brother..
[13:59:41] <anonimasu_> a ball endmill..
[13:59:47] <Jacky^> 6 mm ?
[13:59:58] <anonimasu_> maybe a bit larger for roughing
[14:00:06] <anonimasu_> then a toolchange and finishing with a smaller
[14:00:48] <anonimasu_> I dont think you can machine the smallest detail with a 6mm ballnose
[14:01:00] <Jacky^> right..
[14:01:36] <Jacky^> 3 mm ballnose should be ok
[14:01:44] <anonimasu_> :)
[14:01:56] <Jacky^> but it take a lot of time :(
[14:01:59] <anonimasu_> yeah
[14:02:07] <Jacky^> * Jacky^ sigh
[14:02:09] <anonimasu_> I am still deciding if I should go out and machine this part of mine
[14:02:39] <anonimasu_> need a mount for the die grinder
[14:06:32] <anonimasu_> going to use it for engraving
[14:06:33] <anonimasu_> :)
[14:18:53] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ is trying to find out how to mount it
[14:21:08] <alex_joni> try mount -a
[14:22:10] <anonimasu_> yeah
[14:22:11] <anonimasu_> :)
[15:42:16] <Jacky^> hi steve_stallings
[15:42:28] <steve_stallings> hi Jacky
[15:42:29] <Jacky^> how are you ? :)
[15:42:53] <steve_stallings> tired, bored, doing too much PCB layout work lately
[15:43:04] <Jacky^> :)
[15:43:19] <Jacky^> no holidays yet ?
[15:43:22] <steve_stallings> is Fenn here?
[15:43:36] <Jacky^> maybe
[15:43:55] <steve_stallings> I used my holiday time to go to the CNC Workshop, then came back with a head cold that lated 3 weeks
[15:44:07] <Jacky^> :\
[15:44:14] <Jacky^> hehe
[15:44:53] <steve_stallings> looking forward to finishing current layout job so I can go play some 8-)
[15:45:12] <Jacky^> :D
[15:45:49] <Jacky^> news update on website ?
[15:46:37] <steve_stallings> news, what news?
[15:46:53] <Jacky^> form latest meeting..
[15:46:57] <Jacky^> from*
[15:47:58] <steve_stallings> gee, I have seen a couple of reports, guess none made into the Wiki
[15:48:17] <Jacky^> ah, well ok :)
[15:53:17] <steve_stallings> Jacky, there are a batch of pics named "mazak*" at: http://linuxcnc.org/dropbox/
[15:54:00] <Jacky^> wow
[15:54:07] <Jacky^> nice, thanks :)
[15:54:16] <steve_stallings> That is the machine that the EMC crew was retrofitting
[15:55:19] <Jacky^> :-)
[16:07:02] <fenn> gee i'm popular this morning
[16:11:44] <steve_stallings> sought after and popular are two different things 8-)
[16:12:45] <steve_stallings> last night I ran across an interesting web site about 5 axis CAM and thought you might find it interesting
[16:13:02] <fenn> is it rainnea.com? :)
[16:13:12] <steve_stallings> the page starts in French but includes English version below
[16:13:16] <steve_stallings> http://olivier.coma.free.fr/opencascade/opencascade.html
[16:13:43] <steve_stallings> quite interesting application with code available, runs doze or Linux supposedly
[16:13:50] <fenn> hmmm i havent seen this page yet
[16:18:05] <fenn> i wonder if i have to download the opencascade libraries now
[16:18:18] <fenn> you have to jump through some hoops
[16:18:51] <steve_stallings> thought it was a non-issue for personal use
[16:19:29] <fenn> yes, but i still don't have them on my machine.. i remember there being some annoying stuff you had to do
[17:59:11] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ just machined a impeller
[17:59:23] <Jymmm> what was the problem?
[17:59:27] <anonimasu_> nothing :)
[17:59:40] <anonimasu_> it came out great but I made it 80mm instead of 40
[17:59:51] <anonimasu_> I am re-machining it
[17:59:54] <Jymmm> You were having issues the other day
[18:00:25] <anonimasu_> hm, remind me with what :)
[18:00:31] <anonimasu_> *cant remember*
[18:00:39] <anonimasu_> visualmill?
[18:00:57] <Jymmm> no clue, lack of sleep?
[18:01:02] <Jymmm> anyhow...
[18:01:03] <anonimasu_> yeah
[18:01:05] <anonimasu_> that might be it
[18:01:06] <Jymmm> cool beans =)
[18:01:20] <anonimasu_> Ill bring you a pic of it as soon as I've machined it again
[18:01:51] <anonimasu_> if it turns out ok
[18:01:52] <anonimasu_> :)
[18:02:01] <anonimasu_> otherwise I'll put it in the not so good idea bin
[18:02:22] <Jymmm> lol, fair enough
[18:02:57] <anonimasu_> but from the other one I made I think it'll come out great
[18:04:25] <Jymmm> so, where's mine then?
[18:04:32] <anonimasu_> your impeller?
[18:04:43] <Jymmm> Yep, the one you're making for me
[18:04:46] <anonimasu_> I sell them at 20$ + s&h
[18:04:53] <Jymmm> you said free
[18:04:59] <anonimasu_> *grins*
[18:05:00] <anonimasu_> I lied
[18:05:13] <Jymmm> bastard!
[18:05:20] <anonimasu_> :)
[18:05:20] <Jymmm> lol
[18:10:19] <Jymmm> argh... I feel stranded! Waiting for replacement parts to be made for the router, and an email back from Xylotex about the steppers and driver board (which I think is blown).
[18:11:30] <anonimasu_> :/
[18:11:33] <anonimasu_> I know the feeling
[18:11:37] <anonimasu_> I had a dead gecko way back..
[18:11:45] <anonimasu_> and I didnt use it before the warranty expired..
[18:12:08] <anonimasu_> so I have a stepper/crap axis
[18:12:21] <Jymmm> Did he deny the warranty?
[18:12:23] <anonimasu_> nope..
[18:12:29] <anonimasu_> I dont think he would have either
[18:12:55] <anonimasu_> but shipping it back costs more then a new drive
[18:13:02] <anonimasu_> I'll be going with real serovamps soon anyway..
[18:13:07] <Jymmm> oh man, that stinks
[18:13:11] <anonimasu_> and a vital
[18:13:11] <anonimasu_> )
[18:13:13] <anonimasu_> :)
[18:13:23] <Jymmm> what do you mean "REAL" ?
[18:13:36] <anonimasu_> geckos are step servo amps..
[18:13:43] <anonimasu_> :)
[18:13:49] <anonimasu_> you wont see the kinds of speed I want with them..
[18:13:55] <anonimasu_> unless you got a hardware pulse generator
[18:14:04] <anonimasu_> g200x.. or something
[18:14:19] <Jymmm> ok, what kindas of speed can you get from geckos?
[18:14:25] <anonimasu_> 2m/min right now at most
[18:14:38] <anonimasu_> I dont want to sacrifice the stepsize for speed..
[18:14:58] <Jymmm> about 78 IPM ?
[18:15:04] <anonimasu_> yeah
[18:15:17] <anonimasu_> slow :/
[18:15:24] <Jymmm> shit... with what I have I can only get 28IPM w/o it stalling
[18:15:33] <Jymmm> and thats just jogging
[18:15:46] <anonimasu_> I want 5m/min when cutting
[18:15:56] <SWPadnos> what voltage are your motors?
[18:15:57] <anonimasu_> and even more for rapids
[18:16:04] <SWPadnos> (hi guys :) )
[18:16:08] <anonimasu_> right now, I have 48V
[18:16:14] <anonimasu_> and several 100A
[18:16:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos http://www.xylotex.com/3AxSysKit.htm
[18:16:25] <anonimasu_> ;)
[18:16:49] <SWPadnos> mine are 150V, 40A (max), but that's not important right now :)
[18:16:54] <SWPadnos> (servos)
[18:16:57] <anonimasu_> I think the servos are 100V per axis
[18:17:17] <anonimasu_> I'll be buying new servos soon
[18:17:28] <SWPadnos> the Geckos will limit me to 80V, but that's still enough for 1700 RPM or so
[18:17:38] <SWPadnos> plenty fast with a 2:1 ballscrew drive
[18:17:40] <anonimasu_> yeah
[18:17:48] <anonimasu_> http://www.galilmc.com/products/motors/servomotors.html
[18:17:53] <anonimasu_> the first ones are the ones I have
[18:17:54] <SWPadnos> belt drive to the ballscrew, that is
[18:18:01] <Jymmm> am I on crack to think jogging at 28TPI is wrong (wiht the steppers that is)?
[18:18:16] <anonimasu_> I'll be buying the larger ones later
[18:18:22] <anonimasu_> just need somone to shop via cant afford them in sweden
[18:18:54] <SWPadnos> acceleration may be too high if they stall during jogs
[18:19:10] <anonimasu_> NEMA 34 brush servo motor, 1000 ppr encoder with round cable
[18:19:17] <anonimasu_> thoose should be a good match
[18:19:19] <Jymmm> SWPadnos tell me more
[18:19:26] <anonimasu_> 10nm peak torque
[18:19:43] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, those steppers are rated at 2.8A, 1.13 ohm. That's a 3.16V motor.
[18:19:52] <anonimasu_> I would need to calc it
[18:19:59] <anonimasu_> the inertia though
[18:20:02] <SWPadnos> the Gecko recommendation is for 5x to 25x the voltage, so you're in the low end of that
[18:20:30] <anonimasu_> the ones I have now are a bit too small..
[18:20:32] <anonimasu_> for the speeds I want
[18:20:37] <anonimasu_> but I need to upgrade other stuff first :)
[18:20:51] <SWPadnos> also, the current from the supply is limited - they explicitly mention 2.8A/phase, not per motor.
[18:20:52] <Jymmm> SWPadnos Ok, so since it's underpowered, why would it stall ?
[18:21:20] <Jymmm> SWPadnos or are we talking apples/oranges
[18:21:22] <SWPadnos> I think you have 2 phases on all the time, so you actually need 2/3 (5.6*3) or around 11A, not 4.5
[18:21:33] <anonimasu_> because you have too little power to accelerate it to the speed..
[18:21:43] <SWPadnos> does it stall when not connected to anything?
[18:22:07] <anonimasu_> you cant push the rotor in place before the next step..
[18:22:21] <anonimasu_> so you end up going nowhere..
[18:22:28] <Jymmm> SWPadnos : Sitting on the table - no problem. Pick it up off the table - stalls. Tight grip in my hand - np. loosen grip - it stalls.
[18:22:48] <SWPadnos> weird - I'd expect the opposite (stall when held tightly)
[18:23:18] <SWPadnos> the thing about steppers is that they need power to get out of the detents
[18:23:21] <Jymmm> MotorA stall more at low speeds, MotorB stall at high speed (same conditions above)
[18:23:43] <SWPadnos> the problem follows the motor when you swap axes?
[18:23:59] <Jymmm> SWPadnos : Jeff (from Xylotex) was saying this was resonance causing the issue and that being on the machien would relive this.
[18:24:09] <SWPadnos> uh - yeah
[18:24:18] <Jymmm> it didn't
[18:24:46] <SWPadnos> right - I'd expect it to work worse on the machine than when not mounted
[18:25:00] <Jymmm> and he says the opposite.
[18:25:05] <SWPadnos> you work with RF, right (so I can use appropriate analogies :) )
[18:25:09] <Jymmm> I don't know what to think atm.
[18:25:18] <anonimasu_> brb machining time
[18:25:19] <anonimasu_> :D
[18:25:28] <SWPadnos> seeya
[18:25:32] <Jymmm> hasta
[18:26:10] <SWPadnos> when you energize a coil, it doesn't try to turn the rotor - it makes the relationship between the rotor and the case change
[18:26:35] <SWPadnos> if the case is bolted down, then the rotor will move, but if the rotor is held, the case will move
[18:27:25] <SWPadnos> the reason I think it should work better when helo loosely or not bolted down, is that there are two places to put the torque - the case and the rotor
[18:27:28] <SWPadnos> held
[18:28:05] <SWPadnos> since Ke = 1/2 m(v^2), it takes less energy to accelerate the case/rotor relative to each other
[18:28:25] <SWPadnos> more mass, but less velocity, so a square law reduction in power, but a linear increase due to mass
[18:28:56] <SWPadnos> yielding a linear-ish decrease in power
[18:30:25] <Jymmm> Ok, I don't think it's torque (directly) but resonance. But WHY/WHAT is causing it to resonant so much (it is loud and very widespread)? Could it be the way the pulse are coming?
[18:30:43] <SWPadnos> the pulse train could well be the problem.
[18:31:01] <SWPadnos> do you have test equipment or the ability to make a 555-based pulse generator?
[18:31:29] <Jymmm> I have a breadboard around here somewhere
[18:31:44] <Jymmm> I also hace a Basic Stamp
[18:31:47] <Jymmm> also
[18:31:55] <SWPadnos> ok - that would work
[18:32:08] <SWPadnos> there's a 555 timer circuit in the CCED files section
[18:32:59] <Jymmm> (sidenote... right now the driver board is blown) why/how not sure.
[18:33:08] <SWPadnos> "manual pulse generator.pdf" - or I can dcc it to you (I think)
[18:33:28] <SWPadnos> that could also have been part of the problem.
[18:34:14] <SWPadnos> actually, the power supply may not be too small - I think I was remembering the servo formula - not sure it's the same for steppers
[18:34:17] <Jymmm> no clue what the casue is at this point. Which is why I'm taking the stepper diag crash course.
[18:34:36] <SWPadnos> have you read mariss' whitepaper?
[18:34:43] <Jymmm> this driver/PS is underpower for it's rating yes.
[18:35:02] <Jymmm> I have it pritned out, but it doens't mention resonance
[18:35:05] <SWPadnos> also, it looks like a regulated supply - that's not an advantage for motor drive
[18:35:18] <Jymmm> it's switching PS
[18:35:38] <SWPadnos> right - not the best thing. you'd be better off with an AC wall wart from DigiKey
[18:35:47] <SWPadnos> (plus rectifier, of course)
[18:36:56] <Jymmm> well, the funny thing is that 'Jeff' said it makes no differnce (though I read it does), but that's sorta why I bought the kit. if it doesn't work/have issues it's difficult to blame it on something else.
[18:36:59] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, they don't have any AC wall-warts that are high enough current
[18:37:33] <SWPadnos> the switching supply won't have the same overcurrent capacity that a bulk power supply has
[18:38:21] <Jymmm> curious... do servos have the same resoance issues that steppers do?
[18:38:45] <SWPadnos> nope - silky smooth, from what I hear (once properly tuned)
[18:39:13] <Jymmm> well I NEVER heard of stepper resonance issures till now.
[18:39:24] <Jymmm> and I tried reading up quite a bit first.
[18:39:30] <SWPadnos> never heard of mid-band resonance? you haven't looked enough :)
[18:39:31] <Jymmm> brb... smoke
[18:39:39] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:43:07] <anonimasu_> iab
[18:43:43] <anonimasu_> my impeller works :9
[18:44:07] <anonimasu_> servos are silent
[18:44:17] <anonimasu_> they whirr a little bit..
[18:45:05] <Jymmm> back...
[18:45:36] <Jymmm> Maybe it was information overload at the time, I've heard the term SWPadnos, but maybe I missed the point.
[18:45:46] <SWPadnos> heh - shit happens
[18:45:48] <anonimasu_> I am upploading the images..
[18:46:21] <anonimasu_> http://www.bojn.net/~an0n/img01.jpg
[18:46:31] <Jymmm> SWPadnos but I dont think it should happen at this low a speed (>28IPM)
[18:46:34] <anonimasu_> 1 minute of cutting
[18:46:35] <anonimasu_> :D
[18:47:05] <SWPadnos> cool. What material is that?
[18:47:12] <anonimasu_> some plastic
[18:47:20] <SWPadnos> looks like UHMW
[18:47:22] <anonimasu_> I made it too small but :)
[18:47:41] <anonimasu_> it works..
[18:47:49] <anonimasu_> going to machine a large one and turn the base instead of mill it..
[18:48:00] <anonimasu_> the round part..
[18:48:05] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ isnt happy with it
[18:48:10] <anonimasu_> visualmill did something freaky
[18:48:17] <anonimasu_> but the blades are sweet
[18:51:06] <anonimasu_> they did end up too thin but it dosent matter it was a tes
[18:51:07] <anonimasu_> t
[18:52:13] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, what's the drive like? (belts, screw pitch, etc)
[18:52:44] <SWPadnos> I was looking for an impeller for the coolant pump on my bandsaw - pretty expensive little buggers
[18:52:46] <Jymmm> 1/2"-10 acme leadscrew. Direct coupled
[18:53:01] <SWPadnos> ok, so 2000 steps / inch
[18:53:04] <anonimasu_> yeah :)
[18:53:10] <Jymmm> SWPadnos the coupler has slots cut in it too
[18:53:12] <SWPadnos> so it's falling over at about 1 KHz step rate
[18:53:25] <Jymmm> microstepped
[18:53:36] <SWPadnos> ah - 10x?
[18:53:42] <Jymmm> 1/8th
[18:54:02] <SWPadnos> ok - 8k pulses / sec - what did you end up with for PERIOD on that machine?
[18:54:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos : I was never able to get emc running properly. So I dl MAch2 and used the 'minimill' profile they had. I also tried two different computers as well.
[18:55:08] <Jymmm> I also tried TurboCNC too
[18:55:24] <SWPadnos> OK, do you know the maximum pulse rate that those other programs were set to?
[18:55:30] <Jymmm> par set to bidirectional on both machiens
[18:55:54] <Jymmm> SWPadnos what that be like 8K Hz ?
[18:55:57] <SWPadnos> I suspect the issue may be granularity of pulse rates
[18:56:25] <Jymmm> or the pulse width?
[18:56:35] <SWPadnos> the max rate may be 20 KHz, but you'd still have a problem.
[18:57:09] <SWPadnos> not necessarily width - any pulse that a PC can do will be longer than the minimum necessary (for a Gecko - not sure about the Xylotex)
[18:57:38] <SWPadnos> it's granularity - take a 25 KHz interrupt
[18:57:57] <SWPadnos> count the set number of "blank" interrupts
[18:58:15] <SWPadnos> when you get to the right count, turn on the output and exit the interrupt
[18:58:32] <SWPadnos> the next time, see that the output is on, and turn it off, plus reload counters
[18:58:40] <SWPadnos> then repeat the process.
[18:59:09] <SWPadnos> so, each pulse takes at minimum two interrupts - 12.5KHz pulses, in this example.
[18:59:43] <SWPadnos> but the next slower rate is 25KHz / 3 (one period on, two off instead of one) = 8.333 KHz
[18:59:53] <SWPadnos> the next slower is 6.25 KHz, etc.
[19:00:19] <SWPadnos> so what happens when you want to go at a rate between 8.33 KHz and 12.5 KHz?
[19:00:22] <Jymmm> Steps per unit: 2000, Minimum pulse width: 1uS
[19:00:41] <Jymmm> velocity: 7.025 units/sec
[19:00:42] <SWPadnos> you output a few fast pulses, then a few slow ones, then more fast ones, then more slow ones, etc.
[19:01:00] <SWPadnos> it's high speed acceleration, due to granularity
[19:03:50] <anonimasu_> hm, inconsistency in the pulsetrain
[19:04:07] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'm sorry, I'd be lying if I said I udnerstand what you said completely.
[19:04:13] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:05:19] <SWPadnos> like alternately hitting the gas and the brake - you go an average speed of 30 MPH, but it's a lot harder on you (and the car)
[19:06:08] <Jymmm> now THAT I understand =)
[19:21:28] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ yawns
[19:29:55] <robin_sz> meep?
[19:54:34] <websys> Anyone know if paul keeps a mirror for things he puts on the BDI?
[19:55:08] <fenn> all i know of is homepage.ntlworld.com/bdi-emc or whatever
[19:55:22] <robin_sz> should do ... the source code should be made available somewhere
[19:56:28] <websys> My problem is that I did an apt-get update and install of the dev tools and now my .deb file is incompatible with the current BDI
[19:56:45] <robin_sz> ah well ...
[19:57:09] <robin_sz> thata odd
[19:57:32] <robin_sz> you should be able to get the current release as well as the old BDI ..
[19:57:46] <robin_sz> I rpesume tis a current dev tools newer than the bdi version thing
[19:58:11] <robin_sz> mayeb you just need to apt-get emc too
[19:58:34] <robin_sz> w00t! .. I just bought a compressor :)
[19:58:46] <websys> I start with the BDI and then add the dev tools so I can compile, prob is that it updates libc6 and then my binary won't install on a raw BDU install
[19:59:21] <robin_sz> so update the emc binary too?
[20:00:02] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7529721040
[20:00:14] <robin_sz> at last .. a nice quiet compressor!
[20:00:18] <websys> Well I ahve to make a binary for endusers that run a plain BDI ( they can't update via web because they run at 56K)
[20:00:35] <robin_sz> people use this?
[20:00:37] <robin_sz> wow
[20:01:15] <websys> would take them forever to update ( not to mention they lack the knowledge )
[20:09:57] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ nods
[20:46:52] <Jymmmm> SWPadnos : I'm in the CCEM file area /files/circuits/ which one were you talking about?
[20:47:48] <SWPadnos> It may be on the Gecko list
[20:47:58] <SWPadnos> it's called "MANUAL PULSE GENERATOR.pdf"
[20:48:30] <SWPadnos> I can DCC it to you if you like
[20:50:02] <Jymmmm> firewall, no DCC available
[20:50:15] <SWPadnos> well then - that won't work.
[20:50:36] <SWPadnos> funny - it said the file was sent
[20:50:42] <Jymmmm> I think I got it... damn yaoo and theri session BS
[20:59:08] <Yuga> any one know where i can find some pricing on servo motor's?
[20:59:28] <Jymmmm> ebay, surpluscenter.com
[21:00:13] <Yuga> cool... will try surpluscenter.com dont like ebay
[21:00:51] <fenn> what was the verdict on using treadmill motors for cnc servos?
[21:00:56] <fenn> total waste of time?
[21:01:03] <Jymmmm> Les loves em
[21:01:27] <fenn> he drives his fancy ass router with treadmill motors?
[21:05:17] <fenn> no he uses fancy stuff
[21:06:09] <Jymmmm> ask him
[21:07:20] <cradek> Chezmerelda?
[21:09:11] <cradek> the surplus center: one of the only benefits of living in Lincoln
[21:09:46] <Jymmmm> cradek : chasmea who?
[21:10:20] <anonimasu_> fenn: he does not run he's large router on thoose..
[21:12:27] <anonimasu_> fenn: http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html
[21:12:42] <anonimasu_> :D
[21:16:21] <Jymmmm> I hate having to ghost in a timeframe
[21:18:19] <anonimasu_> timeframe?
[21:18:33] <Jacky^> hey guys
[21:18:45] <Jacky^> ciao Jymmmm :D
[21:37:18] <Jymmmm> Damn... that's the 3rd Maxtor drive I've had to take apart this month... two 30GB and now a 540MB
[21:37:37] <Jymmmm> I've always said HDD mfg's cycle about every 8 years or so
[21:38:34] <fenn> you took apart a 30GB drive to fix it?
[21:38:38] <fenn> or just to play with it
[21:46:56] <Jymmmm> two 30GB were dying
[21:47:16] <Jymmmm> you dont take apart HDD's and fix them
[21:47:25] <fenn> right :)
[21:47:49] <Jymmmm> and if you do, you're a better woman than me!
[22:52:41] <alex_joni> greetings
[22:52:43] <Jymmmm> * Jymmmm dogpiles alex_joni
[22:53:14] <alex_joni> don't bug a tired man
[22:53:36] <alex_joni> it's 1am here
[22:53:36] <alex_joni> and I still gotta do a presentation :(
[22:53:44] <Jymmmm> quit your whining! Unless you shoveled concrete for 16 hours, I don't wanna hear it!
[22:54:09] <alex_joni> is fenn around?
[22:54:13] <fenn> hey
[22:54:20] <alex_joni> yo
[22:54:22] <fenn> i looked in /dev/shm
[22:54:24] <alex_joni> tried what I said?
[22:54:27] <fenn> it's an empty directory
[22:54:29] <alex_joni> any of them there?
[22:54:32] <fenn> make dev doesnt do anything
[22:54:46] <alex_joni> there should be a /dev/shm file too
[22:54:54] <fenn> a file and directory with the same name?
[22:55:00] <alex_joni> smthg like that
[22:55:05] <alex_joni> but the files are shm0 etc
[22:55:07] <alex_joni> iirc
[22:55:09] <alex_joni> lemme check
[22:55:55] <alex_joni> does make dev error out?
[22:55:59] <alex_joni> or simply not do anything?
[22:56:06] <fenn> doesn't say anything
[22:56:41] <alex_joni> is there a /dev/rtai_shm ?
[22:56:45] <fenn> do you think udev might have deleted them?
[22:56:57] <fenn> oh there is RTAI_SHM
[22:57:06] <fenn> and rtai_shm
[22:57:16] <alex_joni> or /dev/rtfx (where x is a number from 0 to 9 ) ?
[22:57:35] <fenn> yes rtf[0-9] and rtc
[22:57:36] <Jymmmm> Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm
[22:57:45] <alex_joni> and /dev/rtai_shm ?
[22:57:50] <fenn> yep
[22:57:55] <alex_joni> ok.. then it's ok
[22:58:14] <alex_joni> at least from this point of view
[22:58:19] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as ImInNoMoodForBS
[22:58:32] <ImInNoMoodForBS> ImInNoMoodForBS is now known as Jymmm
[22:58:36] <alex_joni> fenn: what's still failing?
[22:58:38] <fenn> * fenn pokes Jymmm with a pointy stick.
[22:59:14] <Jymmm> fenn : Jes?
[22:59:38] <fenn> um, nothing
[22:59:43] <fenn> it works.
[22:59:48] <fenn> forgot to check that part :)
[22:59:51] <Jymmm> what works
[22:59:56] <fenn> talking to alex
[23:00:01] <alex_joni> bugger that
[23:00:03] <alex_joni> really?
[23:00:04] <Jymmm> talking to alex works?
[23:00:17] <fenn> alex_joni: well it dies on axis, but that's normal :)
[23:00:18] <alex_joni> probably those damned /dev's missing
[23:00:24] <alex_joni> and make dev restored them
[23:00:27] <fenn> alex_joni: i think udev is deleting them on reboot
[23:00:31] <alex_joni> probably udev has deleted them
[23:00:33] <alex_joni> right
[23:00:50] <alex_joni> I remember paul_c saying he fixed that in the BDI branch
[23:00:56] <alex_joni> for the load script to check on that
[23:01:03] <alex_joni> or to handle udev
[23:01:05] <fenn> yeah you just copy them to /etc/udev/devices or some such
[23:01:11] <alex_joni> didn't have the time to check that
[23:01:28] <alex_joni> maybe ./configure should do that
[23:01:30] <alex_joni> once
[23:01:44] <alex_joni> anyways.. going back to my presentation now
[23:01:47] <fenn> have fun
[23:01:49] <alex_joni> have fun on rtai-3.2 ;)
[23:01:51] <alex_joni> thx
[23:02:15] <alex_joni> night guys