#emc | Logs for 2005-05-12

[00:00:45] <dmess> ever heard of aermet-100 ??? steel
[00:06:31] <Jymmm> Doea the TPI really effect speed that much?
[00:17:28] <Phydbleep> Woohoo! Belting and gears and bolts.. Oh my. :)
[00:18:36] <Phydbleep> All I need now is 1 serpentine or v-belt and some drill bits that will get through the steel on this table. :)
[00:19:40] <Phydbleep> Damn I wish I had a magnetic base drill press. :)
[00:32:24] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega has made a magnetic drill press
[00:33:18] <asdfqwega> I recieved a permanent magnet chuck with an old lathe, and I used some cast iron pipe to make a column on the back of it
[00:33:25] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep just need to drill a dozen holes in a heavy steel table.
[00:33:33] <asdfqwega> And stuck a cheapo drill press on the column
[00:33:46] <asdfqwega> That's what I was doing
[00:34:54] <Phydbleep> How big was the mag chuck?
[00:42:26] <asdfqwega> 6" or 8"
[00:42:38] <Phydbleep> Cool. :)
[00:43:44] <asdfqwega> I didn't have that much quill travel, so I made the column just the right height to use a 1/2" drill bit to full depth
[00:44:04] <Phydbleep> Still got all the pieces?
[00:44:12] <asdfqwega> Yes
[00:45:27] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... What would you want for it?
[00:46:42] <Phydbleep> NM... I just realized the shipping would kill me right now.
[00:48:46] <asdfqwega> I'll check on that when I get back
[00:48:55] <asdfqwega> I'm off to see the Wizard ;)
[02:20:15] <daryl> * daryl eats a carrot.
[02:21:37] <Jymmm> * Jymmm pats daryl on the butt for eating his vegetables, hands him a cookie and sends him off to bed!
[02:22:04] <daryl> * daryl eats the cookie.
[02:22:45] <A-L-P-H-A> sure, give the kid sugar before bed.
[02:23:06] <Jymmm> Not a problem, I'm not his parents and don't have to deal with it
[02:23:36] <daryl> I'm still recovering from the coffee I had yesterday afternoon.
[02:23:47] <A-L-P-H-A> YESTERDAY?
[02:23:50] <A-L-P-H-A> sad.
[02:23:57] <daryl> Didn't sleep much.
[02:24:18] <daryl> Probably would have been better my mill was working.
[02:24:51] <Jymmm> * Jymmm ordered $80 freaking dollars in bearings today =(
[02:25:08] <daryl> Bearings are pricey.
[02:25:22] <daryl> ARGH!!!! stupid software.
[02:25:30] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm. that's nothing!
[02:25:38] <A-L-P-H-A> that's like one linear frelon bearing.
[02:25:39] <daryl> My home-brew mill has bearings hand machined out of uhmw.
[02:25:47] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A Fine, you order them and send them to me!
[02:25:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I accept paypal.
[02:26:03] <A-L-P-H-A> payment first. + 10% finders fee.
[02:26:06] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A but you'll get nut-ing
[02:27:14] <Jymmm> ordered 100 skat bearings + some 12/" ID ones too
[02:27:18] <Jymmm> 1/2"
[02:27:38] <daryl> What's a skat bearing?
[02:27:45] <Jymmm> roller skate
[02:28:00] <Jymmm> shoes with wheels
[02:28:15] <daryl> * daryl should be roller blading instead of sitting here punching keys.
[02:30:00] <A-L-P-H-A> dark where I am.
[02:30:07] <daryl> Sunny here
[02:30:08] <A-L-P-H-A> I drove by my gym, thinking about going in.
[02:30:15] <A-L-P-H-A> daryl, where?
[02:30:22] <daryl> Vancouver, BC
[02:30:36] <A-L-P-H-A> woohoo! a canuck.
[02:30:40] <A-L-P-H-A> <-- T.
[02:30:46] <Jymmm> eeeesh, another one!
[02:30:51] <daryl> heh heh
[02:31:11] <A-L-P-H-A> we bread like bobitized rabbits.
[02:31:15] <Jymmm> my bad, that should have read..... eeeesh, another one EH!
[02:31:16] <A-L-P-H-A> population decline
[02:31:39] <A-L-P-H-A> EH! sounds much more intelligent then "HUH?"
[02:31:40] <Jymmm> wth hell else you gonna do in all that coldness!
[02:31:46] <A-L-P-H-A> snowboard.
[02:31:48] <A-L-P-H-A> drink.
[02:31:49] <A-L-P-H-A> work.
[02:31:51] <A-L-P-H-A> read.
[02:32:03] <Jymmm> boink boink boink
[02:32:13] <daryl> no no no... not snowboard. SKI!!!
[02:32:14] <Jymmm> double that if theres no tv
[02:32:17] <daryl> ;)
[02:32:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I've been boarding sine 94.
[02:32:39] <A-L-P-H-A> freak'n all these wannabes.
[02:34:55] <daryl> I gave up that whole working thing a month ago.
[02:39:32] <A-L-P-H-A> such an expensive hobby, CNC.
[02:39:43] <A-L-P-H-A> at least if you have some shops that want to do small production runs, it's okay
[02:40:13] <daryl> I built my mill for $300, so not too bad.
[02:40:29] <daryl> Not the world's best mill, mind you. ;)
[02:52:05] <A-L-P-H-A> surely you jist.
[03:01:36] <Jymmm> daryl $300 ?! Euro's?
[03:01:59] <Jymmm> does that include motors and drivers?
[03:02:07] <Jymmm> or just three squirels
[03:03:00] <Jymmm> daryl pics?
[03:06:56] <daryl> Hmm... no pics avail atm. Should dig one up sometime.
[03:07:15] <daryl> Yeah, around $300... maybe a little more with motors. They were surplus.
[03:07:41] <daryl> I think they were $7 ea.
[03:13:29] <Jymmm> go on... keep talking
[03:13:40] <Jymmm> what did you use for rails and bearings?
[03:17:55] <daryl> Rails are ground 1/2" dia hardened steel rods. Not strong enough really, but that's what I've got.
[03:18:27] <daryl> Bearings are uhmw. Machined out of uhmw blocks. Basically free.
[04:14:26] <Jymmm> how did the UHMW bearings turn out?
[04:15:15] <Jymmm> and have you found the 1/2" rails bowing any?
[04:25:38] <daryl> Basically can't mill metal. The rails are way too weak for metal.
[04:26:15] <daryl> I wouldn't recommend building a mill as I did... but it still has its uses.
[04:35:46] <Jymmm> what did yo use for for drive shaft?
[04:36:03] <daryl> Just some 1/4-20 threaded rod.
[04:36:14] <Jymmm> what kind of speeds do you get?
[04:36:14] <daryl> Works pretty well actually.
[04:36:54] <daryl> I haven't measured... 1/2"/sec, maybe a bit more.
[04:37:02] <daryl> yeah... a bit more.
[04:37:38] <daryl> Not very strong motors. And I don't really have a good enough supply. A higher-voltage supply and I could increase it a bit.
[04:37:49] <Jymmm> ah
[04:38:28] <daryl> Works reasonably well for milling acrylic.
[04:39:02] <Jymmm> how big did you make yours?
[04:39:14] <daryl> Mills 12"x12"x6"
[04:39:52] <daryl> You asked about the bearings... they seem fine. I didn't make the mounts quite as big as they should be, but they work.
[04:40:02] <Jymmm> ah. ok
[04:41:14] <daryl> Works great for pcb's.
[04:42:04] <daryl> Bought some 0.01" and 0.02" mills... damn small mills.
[04:42:27] <daryl> I have a little trouble imagining how they make them.
[04:42:55] <daryl> You nearly can't see the flutes with the naked eye.
[04:44:56] <Jymmm> cool, I kinda wanted to try my had and a few PCB's
[04:47:12] <daryl> I really wanted to keep it all freeware, but was just too much of a pain (would have required writing a fair amount of software).
[04:47:16] <daryl> Ended up using eagle.
[04:47:22] <Jymmm> heh
[04:47:36] <Jymmm> I'm thinking about using hex bar for rialing
[04:47:41] <Jymmm> railing
[04:48:29] <daryl> A friend suggested using a good hardwood in the usual dove-tail shape.
[04:48:55] <daryl> Wood sounds like a hack... but I think it would work.
[04:52:46] <daryl> I bought precision ground rails. You could go that way if you went for bigger ones.
[04:53:19] <daryl> Not sure what happens to the price though.
[04:54:37] <Phydbleep> Woohoo!.. 8 holes to drill and this puppy is ready to test. :)
[04:55:43] <daryl> What are you making?
[04:59:42] <Phydbleep> Working over a 1947 Logan 10" lathe.
[05:00:11] <daryl> What do you need to test?
[05:00:57] <daryl> 10".. beats my ~2" lathe.
[05:00:58] <Jymmm> Well, I was thinking hex bar so it coudld double as the frame as well.
[05:01:13] <Jymmm> 3/4 to 7/8"
[05:01:22] <daryl> Were you thinking rollers on it?
[05:01:40] <Jymmm> skate bearings 120 deg apart
[05:01:51] <daryl> Ahh.. hence your order.
[05:02:09] <Jymmm> yep, plus some 1/2" ID bearings for the acme rod
[05:02:20] <daryl> rod for what?
[05:02:29] <Jymmm> acme threaded rod
[05:02:45] <daryl> lead screw?
[05:02:49] <Jymmm> yeah
[05:03:04] <daryl> What did the rod run you?
[05:03:19] <daryl> is it square thread, or just the regular screw thread?
[05:03:36] <daryl> like the stuff you'd buy ad the hardware store
[05:03:41] <Jymmm> Heh, 1/2-10 ACME threaded rod 6' long is $6.99 USD
[05:04:11] <daryl> Just standard stuff then.
[05:04:17] <Jymmm> hardware store stuff is also called 'allthread' and is just like an every day bolt
[05:04:31] <Jymmm> ACME has flats instead of points
[05:04:31] <daryl> Is the acme stuff better?
[05:04:36] <daryl> ah
[05:05:05] <daryl> What will you use to follow it?
[05:05:10] <Jymmm> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=621
[05:05:13] <Jymmm> follow?
[05:05:28] <daryl> Umm... run on it like a nut to move your table.
[05:05:40] <daryl> * daryl is too stupid to come up with the right word.
[05:06:14] <Phydbleep> Crossfeed nut. :)
[05:06:14] <Jymmm> I'm planing on making a anti-backlash nut out of UHMW, DELRIN, or maybe brass/
[05:06:21] <Jymmm> Phydbleep ?
[05:06:35] <Phydbleep> That was for daryl
[05:06:40] <Jymmm> ah
[05:07:29] <Phydbleep> The nice thing about acme thread is you can make a tap from a spare piece and a grinder. :)
[05:07:36] <daryl> I just lived with the backlash.
[05:07:44] <Jymmm> Phydbleep heh, you read that too huh?
[05:07:59] <Phydbleep> Read it? Done it :)
[05:08:09] <Jymmm> Phydbleep how many flutes?
[05:08:39] <Phydbleep> 6 slots, varying width.
[05:08:47] <Jymmm> thats the only thing I haven't figured out... how to CUT the flutes themselves, well also to taper the darn thing evenly
[05:09:05] <Phydbleep> Grinder. :)
[05:09:35] <Jymmm> for the taper yeah, but what about cutting the flutes?
[05:10:23] <Phydbleep> Anneal the screw, cut the flutes with a high speed grinder, Chuck it up and grind the taper, Re-temper. :)
[05:10:44] <Jymmm> Phydbleep Uh... no mill nor lathe available
[05:10:58] <Phydbleep> Drill press?
[05:11:03] <Jymmm> got that
[05:11:10] <Phydbleep> That will do it.
[05:11:32] <Jymmm> I'll be getting a hand angle grinder too
[05:11:36] <Jymmm> hand held
[05:11:39] <Phydbleep> All you need to do is spin the thread at an even rate so you can grind the taper.
[05:12:02] <Jymmm> Yeah, the taper isn't my biggest issue, it's cutting the flutes
[05:12:18] <Phydbleep> Get on of the cut-off adapters and a v-block for the slitting.
[05:12:34] <Jymmm> ?
[05:12:44] <Jymmm> cut off adapters?
[05:13:15] <Jymmm> daryl : left side of page is acme rod http://www.keystonethreaded.com/acme.htm
[05:13:30] <Jymmm> http://www.keystonethreaded.com/CIMG0295.JPG
[05:17:42] <Phydbleep> I can't find the url now.. It's a harbor fright item. :)
[05:18:06] <Jymmm> whats it typically for?
[05:18:49] <daryl> Looks like good stuff.
[05:19:39] <Jymmm> daryl especially if you can't afford ballscrew =)
[05:20:01] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: It adds a mount/pivot/clamp to an angle grinder.. Makes a tiny chop saw out of it. :)
[05:20:14] <Jymmm> oh that thing!
[05:20:24] <Phydbleep> Yeah, "That thing" :)
[05:21:07] <Phydbleep> Or just use a chopsaw if you can get to one.
[05:22:16] <Phydbleep> Don't cut at with the blade at the center of the thread, Cut with the blade edge at the center of the thread.
[05:22:40] <Jymmm> cut a v slot flute?
[05:23:29] <Phydbleep> I just use the edge of the grinding wheel to shape the flute. It will taper as it gets further up the thread.
[05:25:07] <Jymmm> Phydbleep only at http://HarborFreightUSA.com/ item# 39742
[05:25:12] <Jymmm> not availabel thru the catalog
[05:25:53] <Jymmm> *****
[05:32:01] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: You understand the idea though?
[05:33:48] <Phydbleep> And that's a recent change in the HF catalog.
[05:42:30] <Jymmm> no, the url I gave you is for the RETAIL stores, no tthe catalog (they are two different companys)
[05:51:14] <weyland> ne1 up?
[05:52:10] <weyland> tap...tap...tap... this thing on? :)
[06:25:32] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: That's for the 7" or 9" grinders, The one I'm thinking of is for the 4.5" units
[06:26:16] <Phydbleep> # 40613
[06:40:01] <Jymmm> ah, glad you noticed that =)
[06:41:33] <Jymmm> I'm heading up there in the morning if they have everything in stock
[06:42:25] <Jymmm> is a FORSTNER bit good for coutner sunk holes to mount a bearing?
[06:45:45] <Phydbleep> It's probably as good as you'll get in a drillpress.
[06:46:14] <Jymmm> Yeah, the bearing I bought have a 1 5/8" OD
[06:46:21] <Phydbleep> I'd like to get a price for # 41343
[06:48:20] <Phydbleep> This blows..There's no prices to be found on that site. :\
[06:55:17] <Jymmm> yeah. iirc it was like $40 or less
[06:57:29] <Phydbleep> All I have to say is that if the new wqebsite doesn't get some prices, They wont get any business.
[06:58:11] <anonimasu> good morning everyone
[06:58:27] <Phydbleep> Good?
[06:58:46] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep blew his back out again moving the lathe parts.
[06:59:17] <anonimasu> yeah it's a good morning
[06:59:17] <anonimasu> :)
[06:59:38] <Jymmm> anonimasu Got Laid huh?
[06:59:50] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. Well.. It IS 1 AM here which does qualify as morning. :)
[06:59:56] <anonimasu> Jymmm: nope :~/
[07:00:30] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: Must be the Prozac. :)
[07:00:38] <Jymmm> Phydbleep I think so too
[07:08:49] <anonimasu> :D
[07:09:18] <Jymmm> Phydbleep OR.... he DID get laid, and just being shy about it =)
[07:09:53] <anonimasu> I am just happy the jog wheel works..
[07:10:05] <anonimasu> I need a encoder though..
[07:10:14] <Jymmm> oh, is THAT what the kids are calling it these days!
[07:10:18] <anonimasu> and sone cables
[07:10:23] <anonimasu> going to solder it to the soundcard..
[07:10:37] <anonimasu> since I had no connectors
[07:11:15] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Midi port?
[07:11:42] <anonimasu> yes
[07:11:52] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: :)
[07:11:54] <Phydbleep> Take a hacksaw/dremel to a DB-25. :)
[07:11:54] <Jymmm> DB15
[07:12:05] <anonimasu> nope..
[07:12:07] <anonimasu> soldering is better
[07:12:12] <anonimasu> I have other connectors I can use
[07:12:13] <Jymmm> no need to cut anything... a DB25 WILL fit on a DB15
[07:12:14] <anonimasu> :)
[07:12:38] <anonimasu> I still odont have any db25...
[07:12:46] <anonimasu> nothing without cables
[07:13:02] <Jymmm> I really would NTO hit a soldering iron to a SB16 card
[07:13:10] <Jymmm> NOT
[07:13:23] <anonimasu> howcome?
[07:13:33] <anonimasu> bad at soldering?
[07:13:37] <anonimasu> *grins*
[07:13:38] <Jymmm> they are good lil cards and hard to come by anymore
[07:13:46] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: You turn the machine OFF first. :)
[07:13:51] <anonimasu> ye�
[07:13:54] <anonimasu> it's not a big deal..
[07:14:05] <Jymmm> hey, it's your card
[07:14:13] <anonimasu> it's not like I am killing the card because I am soldering 15 wired to the midi port...
[07:14:31] <anonimasu> wires..
[07:14:32] <Jymmm> gonna hack it up over a $0.99 adapter
[07:14:43] <Jymmm> err connector
[07:14:47] <anonimasu> yeah
[07:14:59] <anonimasu> because that connector will be here on tuesday
[07:15:08] <anonimasu> and there's no way to get it locally
[07:15:15] <anonimasu> :)
[07:15:29] <Jymmm> oh that's right your in BFE
[07:15:37] <anonimasu> I might test the other no-brand soundcard..
[07:15:39] <anonimasu> BFE?
[07:15:49] <anonimasu> ;)
[07:15:52] <Phydbleep> BFE? Is that near West Tennis Shoe?
[07:15:53] <Jymmm> Bum Fuck Egypt (the middle of nowhere)
[07:16:04] <anonimasu> yeah
[07:16:29] <Jymmm> anonimasu they have some 200 miles SSW of you =)
[07:16:39] <anonimasu> lol
[07:16:41] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: I thought you were in eastern Sweden?
[07:16:48] <anonimasu> thye very north
[07:16:52] <anonimasu> err the...
[07:16:54] <anonimasu> :)
[07:17:08] <anonimasu> if I am lucky I'll have the stuff tomorrow..
[07:17:22] <Jymmm> just wait till you get the darn thing
[07:17:22] <anonimasu> but it might stick somwhere on the road
[07:17:46] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Use the no name if the midi port works on it.
[07:18:01] <Jymmm> yeah, what Phydbleep said
[07:18:11] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has an original Gravis Ultrasound somewhere.
[07:18:44] <anonimasu> ofcourse...
[07:18:50] <anonimasu> although I dont care for the awe32..
[07:18:55] <anonimasu> I have a sblive somwhere..
[07:23:54] <Jymmm> G'Night Folks!
[07:25:15] <anonimasu> NIGHT
[07:25:20] <anonimasu> err night.
[07:26:30] <Jymmm> =)
[07:55:56] <anonimasu> hm, somthing strange is up with my mill..
[07:56:07] <anonimasu> it's started locking up
[07:58:21] <anonimasu> somthing with the sb16 perhaps..
[08:07:08] <Phydbleep> IRQ conflicts?
[08:07:30] <Phydbleep> Try it with a cheap PCI SB?
[10:55:52] <Phydbleep> Muwahahahaha!!!! IGOR! It's a lathe! :)
[10:56:55] <Phydbleep> Mounted, belted and ready to run as soon as I wire the speed controller and UI. :)
[11:02:58] <Phydbleep> Anybody see any problems with video arcade buttons for the user interface? http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/5891xxl.htm
[11:04:40] <Phydbleep> Red for STOP, Green for GO, Yellow for RESET and Blue for BRAKE.
[12:10:47] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: it works nicely for a while..
[12:10:47] <anonimasu> Phydbleep: then it locks up completely
[12:10:47] <anonimasu> cw
[12:37:17] <alex_joni> greetings
[12:50:55] <alex_joni> and .... bye ,)
[13:37:26] <les> hi all
[13:39:24] <Imperator_> Hi les
[13:39:58] <Imperator_> les: are there some news about the planner
[13:41:08] <les> not from NIST
[13:41:27] <les> I will call up there if I don't see paul on the channel here
[13:42:37] <les> I talked to fred a good bit and he fully agrees that the original planner is highly flawed and should be replaced
[13:43:08] <les> Now it is a matter of just getting it done
[13:43:37] <les> with something less ambitios than SQ....like a simple cubic or quintic smoother
[13:44:16] <les> cubic is quickest to do because the code is already there...but in the form of a sub interpolator
[13:46:56] <les> sub interpolation in that form rounds the corners of the trapezoidal v profile
[13:47:48] <les> but it effectively does not do much if the servo period/trajectory period is low....and that is needed to prevent aliasing
[13:48:37] <les> aliasing or a similar effect is a horrible, horrible problem with emc
[13:49:37] <les> .1 mm point spacing at 15 mm/s will choke emc even on a fast machine
[13:49:50] <les> the algo breaks down
[13:50:03] <les> and violent stuttering ensues
[13:50:09] <les> hi steve
[13:51:00] <stevestallings> hi les, any updates on the traj planner, I have not been following last few days
[13:51:29] <les> Yes I have been talking about it a little....can you check the log?
[13:52:03] <les> for this morning
[13:53:32] <SWP_Away> logger_aj, bookmark
[13:53:32] <SWP_Away> See
[13:53:42] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[13:53:46] <stevestallings> all logs are local and I have not been on line
[13:53:47] <les> ty
[13:54:06] <SWPadnos> that log isn't local
[13:54:06] <stevestallings> thanks SWP
[13:54:10] <SWPadnos> no problem
[13:56:21] <les> at the bottom ...
[13:56:30] <SWPadnos> and growing...
[13:56:37] <les> he yup
[13:57:40] <SWPadnos> Les, where in the motion chain does the smoothing you're talking about happen? (ie, just above the drivers, just below the interpreter, etc)
[13:58:40] <les> in the servo cycle
[13:58:48] <les> at the servo rate
[13:59:04] <les> below the planner
[13:59:23] <les> (I think)
[14:00:54] <les> First thing that must be done is to prevent the alias....
[14:01:09] <SWPadnos> interesting. I believe emc operates as a velocity controller, not a torque controller. That means there is always an unbounded jerk between servo updates (assuming there's a velocity change)
[14:01:30] <SWPadnos> (torque = acceleration in this case)
[14:01:39] <les> raw speed won't do it since there is about a 200 microsecond brick wall regardless of cpu speed
[14:02:28] <les> SWP: the PID can be used with either torque or velocity
[14:02:53] <les> most controllers (mine included) send out torque commands
[14:03:08] <les> higher bandwidth....better phase margin
[14:03:11] <SWPadnos> OK, but does the planner "think" in terms of velocity, or acceleration?
[14:03:18] <Imperator_> I don't know it ecatly, but i had a look into the heidenhain OEM katalog, there are some smal pictures and a little bit explenation, of cause they don't say how they are working
[14:04:18] <les> SWP the trap. routines must consider position, velocity, and acceleration
[14:04:23] <Imperator_> i think they just stick one element of the g-Code on the next, and then they look at the velosity and they smooth it
[14:04:26] <les> so it has to think in all three
[14:05:21] <les> well you can smooth a trapezoidal profile....or go full tilt and spline up all the points with a polynomial
[14:05:35] <les> typically odd order
[14:06:24] <Imperator_> mybe only to smoth the velosity so that you have also a trapeziodal jerk
[14:06:37] <les> right
[14:06:59] <Imperator_> and the way you are driving is the original out of the g-code
[14:07:00] <les> the corners of the trapezoid have no derivative
[14:07:03] <SWPadnos> famous last words: "but it should be so simple"
[14:07:05] <Imperator_> maybe that is enough
[14:07:27] <Imperator_> if you look for example about 200 sentences ahead
[14:08:09] <les> a full splining up of multiple waypoints is what SQ tried to do
[14:08:51] <les> a polynomial sub interpolator just rounds and smooths a previously planned trajectory
[14:09:17] <les> and that would be ok if done properly
[14:10:24] <les> not the best...but also not so ambitious as to never get done...
[14:12:32] <Imperator_> i think about to keep the waypoints from the g-code
[14:13:03] <les> emc does this now some...but only if the planning rate is VERY slow compared to the servo rate
[14:13:08] <Imperator_> only to change the velosity and acceleration that you have a trapezioid jerk
[14:13:14] <les> then the thing aliases horribly
[14:13:34] <Imperator_> how do you mean ?
[14:13:44] <les> well even with the smoothing jerk is unbounded
[14:13:50] <Imperator_> have you tryed the curve i maild you les ???
[14:14:31] <Imperator_> mailed
[14:15:26] <les> aliasing is when requested point spacing and velocity are such that they need to come along faster than the planning rate
[14:16:18] <les> I think paul may have tried it...we mostly used the 3-d spiral c routine we wrote...it is very controlled and good to analyze
[14:16:53] <les> path has points spaced at a constant delta theta
[14:17:28] <les> so when it spirals in point spacing gets linearly closer with respect to radius
[14:17:28] <Imperator_> can you send me your test G-code file
[14:17:38] <Imperator_> ok
[14:17:59] <les> Paul has it and we forgot to copy it on my machine!
[14:18:09] <les> but yes he can get it to you
[14:18:29] <les> a c program writes the g code file
[14:18:53] <Imperator_> because i was surpriced how good emc2/hal runns with my file. I was (what i can say)smooth
[14:19:21] <les> well we used bdi4 branch of emc2 tree
[14:19:37] <les> that is what paul wanted to use
[14:21:08] <les> the spiral is basically x= r(theta) * cos(theta) etc
[14:21:25] <les> but with a coordinated z motion as well
[14:21:43] <les> so really a non constant radius helix
[14:21:50] <les> what do you call that?
[14:22:22] <stevestallings> funnel?
[14:22:34] <les> yeah heh
[14:23:06] <les> anyway as you cut in you can easily see when aliasing starts
[14:23:56] <les> aliasing would never happen with proper velocity adaptation
[14:24:16] <les> system would slow down always enough to prevent it
[14:24:23] <les> but emc does not
[14:24:31] <SWPadnos> as I recall, you had mentioned that aliasing starts when the segments are 4 servo cycles long or so
[14:25:07] <les> That is what we saw
[14:25:20] <Imperator_> hm
[14:25:24] <les> 4 trajectory cycles not servo cycles
[14:25:37] <SWPadnos> right
[14:25:57] <les> so at the usual 10:1 40 servo cycles
[14:26:15] <les> more or less if you change it of course
[14:26:16] <Imperator_> what limits the planning speed ?
[14:26:45] <les> the number you put in the ini but....
[14:27:14] <les> really the speed limit of kernel space/ user space comms according to paul
[14:27:38] <Imperator_> and what means that in numbers ?
[14:27:48] <les> he says about 200 microseconds no matter how fast the box is
[14:28:06] <Imperator_> no matter how fast the box is ??? why
[14:28:20] <les> I asked the same question
[14:28:27] <SWPadnos> there was some discussion of doing more than a single motion segment per planning cycle, but it may not be feasible
[14:28:27] <Imperator_> 200ms is not that fast
[14:28:38] <SWPadnos> 200 microseconds is a bit faster :)
[14:28:52] <Imperator_> oh ok
[14:28:57] <les> Paul says the things in general purpose cpus like caching...pipeline architecture etc limit it
[14:29:11] <Imperator_> 0,0002s right
[14:29:19] <les> yes
[14:29:23] <les> 5 kHz
[14:29:46] <SWPadnos> the mechanism used for setting the task switch rate has parts that are nearly constant time, I think (like reading ports and acknowledging interrupts)
[14:30:16] <SWPadnos> those aren't related to the CPU speed, but the (cnonstant) ISA or PCI bus speed
[14:30:17] <les> yes on a timer interupt I guess
[14:30:20] <Imperator_> maybe there are some constants in the kernel
[14:30:29] <Imperator_> mybe they can be changed
[14:30:55] <SWPadnos> some maybe, but at the lowest level, there's still an interrupt / acknowledge cycle, and that isn't CPU speed dependent
[14:31:06] <les> He said some things might be done
[14:31:15] <les> less calls to functions
[14:31:22] <les> less floating point math
[14:31:24] <les> etc
[14:31:49] <les> I don't know much about this so will have to defer
[14:32:05] <SWPadnos> that'll help a bit, because fewer registers need to be saved, bt I'm not sure there can be much improvement there
[14:32:49] <les> If anything could be done it would be a good thing
[14:33:26] <les> a Galil $800 legacy card can do 62 microseconds in 4 axes
[14:33:40] <SWPadnos> the improvement there is in the 5-10 microsecond range, not very significant
[14:33:52] <les> yeah
[14:34:09] <les> Paul talked about latency jitter being a limit
[14:34:25] <SWPadnos> I have a $300 TI DSP development kit that could do PID on several axes at 100 uS cycles, it may not be relevant here :)
[14:35:01] <SWPadnos> that's the killer when using a complete opeerating system to do more-or-less one task
[14:35:10] <SWPadnos> there's still a lot of other stuff going on
[14:35:37] <SWPadnos> and some of it is in critical sections, which totally screws up the one really important task
[14:36:29] <les> yes
[14:36:44] <les> galil use ti 320xx I think
[14:37:53] <les> funny thing we found here....an old amd k6 200 ran emc faster than a 1G or so p3 or 4
[14:38:07] <SWPadnos> Mine's a 56F801, so it's not floating point, but I also have the $500 dev kit for the 32xxx serries
[14:38:30] <SWPadnos> yep - less pipelining
[14:38:58] <les> the k6 locked at 200 microseconds....pauls faster box at 400
[14:39:28] <SWPadnos> plus there are a few instructions in the pemtium and later that can really take a long time (like cache control instructions)
[14:39:29] <les> heh
[14:39:37] <les> yeah
[14:39:58] <SWPadnos> also, the single-layer cache helps in terms of timing consistency
[14:40:08] <SWPadnos> (unless it's a K6-III)
[14:40:22] <les> hmm that seems bad....newer proc get worse and worse for rt...
[14:40:34] <SWPadnos> strangely, AMD has historically had a worse interrupt controller than Intel
[14:40:55] <SWPadnos> I may try (just for fun) running emc on an Opteron and/or Athlon64
[14:41:09] <SWPadnos> It should be interesting to see how fast that could go
[14:41:19] <les> that would be neat to try
[14:41:52] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure exactly what I'll have, but it will be at least dual opteron - should be fun
[14:42:14] <les> oh paul said dual proc might have a significant impact
[14:42:43] <SWPadnos> yep - if the RT processes are bound to one CPU and other processes to the other CPU(s)
[14:42:51] <les> yeah
[14:43:18] <SWPadnos> the issue there is that the CPUs usually don't all have access to I/O
[14:43:48] <les> hmm
[14:43:49] <SWPadnos> and the RT CPU needs IO for obvious reasons, but the UT CPU also needs that for things like mouse, video, disk, etc.
[14:44:25] <SWPadnos> so the specific motherboard (/chipset) implementation can have a great effect on things
[14:44:43] <les> yes I would think so
[14:45:07] <les> but anything to get the speed up would be great
[14:45:21] <SWPadnos> well, a $12K computer wouldn't be that great :)
[14:45:27] <les> heh
[14:46:02] <Imperator_> how can i test the speed of my system the easyest way ?
[14:46:31] <les> just keep cranking down the servo times
[14:46:40] <les> and get that program from paul
[14:46:59] <SWPadnos> servo time as in [MOTION]->CYCLE_TIME ?
[14:46:59] <les> uh oh just though of something
[14:47:11] <les> he is over the pond right now!
[14:47:32] <les> let me check the exact ini entry...
[14:49:16] <SWPadnos> there's also [TRAJ]->CYCLE_TIME and one for I/O (can't remember the category name)
[14:49:26] <SWPadnos> s/category/section/
[14:49:45] <les> CYCLE_TIME in the axis sections is servo rate....
[14:50:31] <les> same thing in the trajectory section is planner rate (or period actually)
[14:51:16] <Imperator_> and then it sometimes freeze if I have set it faster than it can do ??
[14:51:50] <les> it will lock up or start sending crazy debug messages
[14:52:13] <les> oh and full debug perturbs emc a good bit and slows it down
[14:52:51] <SWPadnos> was Paul testing with his Celeron-500, or was it his laptop or something?
[14:53:07] <les> not sure
[14:53:19] <les> it was the one in the little square box
[14:53:29] <les> that had ISA
[14:53:35] <SWPadnos> I'll try it out on my 3 computers sometime (Athlon 2200, Celeron 500, and PIII 1GHz)
[14:53:39] <SWPadnos> OK - the Celeron 500
[14:53:42] <SWPadnos> or 433
[14:53:47] <SWPadnos> or something like that
[14:54:00] <les> ok...a bit slower than I thought
[14:54:06] <stevestallings> 433
[14:54:13] <SWPadnos> thank you
[14:54:17] <les> it would be great if you could try it on those machines
[14:54:47] <les> can you try it with an io card?
[14:54:49] <SWPadnos> I will - my celeron 500 (with integrated video, no less) has around 6 microseconds of jitter, according to the RTAI testsuite
[14:55:33] <SWPadnos> I/O would be an issue on the Athlon, since it has only PCI slots and no parallel port (I have a PCI parallel card, but it's not installed ATM)
[14:55:34] <les> 6 sounds pretty good...paul was estimating about 30 for his
[14:56:02] <SWPadnos> I was surprised - he said 6 uS was good (I didn't believe him, because I'm used to microcontrollers :) )
[14:56:32] <les> well perhaps running in simulation will still tell something
[14:56:45] <les> I doubt if busschoke is an issue
[14:57:09] <les> 'course I really don't know
[14:57:13] <SWPadnos> yeah - that gets to what jmk was saying - using HAL, connect the output pins to halscope, and see if it's strictly a software issue
[14:57:30] <les> yup
[14:57:44] <les> well it would be great if you could do this
[14:58:07] <SWPadnos> I could probably make a version of HalScope that does differentiation as well (or just a differentiator component), so you could see the acecleration changes as well
[14:58:26] <SWPadnos> I think there may be a differentiator already, come to think of it
[14:59:23] <les> heh I had to design up a quickie integrator to see velocity
[14:59:33] <les> we did not hook it up though
[14:59:52] <les> that was before we gave up on SQ
[15:02:56] <les> For trap It is kinda trivial...I just told Paul that horizontal lines will be ramps!
[15:04:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I'm still pretty sure that the output from the servo code is a velocity
[15:04:52] <les> It really does not matter swp....PID is too dumb to know the difference
[15:04:56] <les> but
[15:05:43] <les> if you use pid with a velocity amp there are two more poles and it will have poor stability
[15:06:09] <les> there is a video lecture about this on the galil site
[15:06:14] <SWPadnos> funny - I was just thinking that velocity mode is the only correct way to control a servo :)
[15:06:28] <les> complete with all the laplace transforms
[15:06:57] <SWPadnos> I just love laplace transforms (my other car is in s-space)
[15:07:31] <les> SWP: long ago velocity amps were used with tachs to offload some of the calcs
[15:07:41] <les> not done now
[15:08:13] <les> with current (torque) amps p is stiffness...
[15:08:24] <les> d is damping...
[15:08:25] <stevestallings> don't some brushless motor drivers sense back EMF to sense speed?
[15:08:38] <les> I is stiffness as a funtion of time
[15:08:55] <les> Steve yeah I think so
[15:08:57] <SWPadnos> yes - the leg that isn't being driven can be measured for speed
[15:10:18] <les> Now if you try to use things like D term in a velocity amp you can get a mess
[15:10:58] <les> it is no longer damping ...an opposing force depending on velocity error
[15:11:26] <les> but it is an opposing velocity depending on velocity error
[15:11:41] <les> sounds ok at firt but it can be unstable
[15:11:48] <les> first
[15:11:53] <SWPadnos> here's the machine I have for EMC: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5194472650
[15:12:00] <les> anyway all that is on the galil video
[15:12:02] <SWPadnos> I just have the 500MHz CPU
[15:12:11] <SWPadnos> OK - I'll look when I have a chance
[15:12:40] <SWPadnos> I'm coming at this from the standpoint of someone with Geckodrives and a rate generator (JonE's USC)
[15:12:59] <les> yes
[15:13:01] <SWPadnos> so I look at the velocity output, and realize that there's a discontinuity at the boundary of every servo cycle.
[15:13:11] <SWPadnos> which means infinite acceleration
[15:13:29] <SWPadnos> that gets filtered by the gecko PID, and the motor/machine itself
[15:13:42] <SWPadnos> but still - it's "icky" from a systems point of view
[15:14:34] <les> Well jon has some kinda strange concepts of pid and velocity amps
[15:14:58] <les> He has written that I and D are miscoded and do not work right in emc
[15:15:07] <les> they are not
[15:15:20] <les> heh he needs to see the video too.
[15:15:22] <SWPadnos> no - it's just a step output rather than a voltage output, but effectively the same as any velocity mode drive
[15:15:38] <stevestallings> but you will have two cascaded PID loops
[15:15:39] <SWPadnos> I'm not using his drivers - I'm just using his step rate grenerator
[15:15:54] <les> right steve
[15:16:32] <les> in the time domain you have thrown an extra integrator in there
[15:16:46] <SWPadnos> that's always true - if you have a Copley servo driver, it has an internal PID to get the motor tach voltage to match the input velocity voltage
[15:17:00] <stevestallings> JMK said the the latest HAL software step generator is a pure rate generator, so that might behave in a more straight forward manner
[15:17:05] <SWPadnos> (input velocity setting voltage)
[15:18:35] <les> SWP: I run Copleys configured as voltage controlled current sources
[15:18:53] <SWPadnos> so they're effectively in torque mode
[15:18:54] <les> no v servo loop
[15:18:58] <les> yes
[15:19:11] <SWPadnos> (see - toerque mode is the way to go :) )
[15:19:18] <les> which is the normal way in most pid machines
[15:20:14] <SWPadnos> the extra PID loop in the Gecko should just add a little phase lag, it isn't truly "in the way", because both EMC and the gecko get the same feedback
[15:20:37] <SWPadnos> I suppose that could cause some other problems
[15:21:05] <les> as is typical of a current source the output impedance is near infinite so with 0 input you coast
[15:21:23] <les> I don't know what Mariss runs
[15:22:02] <SWPadnos> it's a position control loop - the input steps are compared to the encoder feedback steps, and a voltage generated which is proportional to the difference
[15:22:24] <les> I mean the amp
[15:22:31] <les> might be voltage mode
[15:22:42] <les> I have run many voltage mode loops
[15:23:02] <stevestallings> Gecko adjusts the PWM duty cycle, 50% = hold still, effectively voltage mode
[15:23:39] <les> for cnc I feel torque mode gives the very best bandwidth and phase margin
[15:23:43] <SWPadnos> yes - there were some recent discussions about connecting an external voltage to the drive, and using it in velocity mode
[15:23:44] <les> so I use that
[15:24:14] <SWPadnos> (lift pin 2 of the LM393 and connexct 0-5V there, I think it was)
[15:24:28] <les> The encoder is a much better tach than an analog one could ever be
[15:24:40] <stevestallings> yes, but that is just the command input. it is the PWM method that makes it voltage mode
[15:24:50] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:24:54] <les> right
[15:25:09] <SWPadnos> les: too bad the encoder provides no information until an edge
[15:25:29] <SWPadnos> I guess nothing's perfect
[15:25:30] <anonimasu> hello everyone
[15:25:33] <les> heh well nyquist stuff
[15:25:39] <SWPadnos> hi anon
[15:25:57] <les> but gosh ungodly high encoder pulse rates are dirt cheap
[15:26:19] <les> hi anon
[15:26:24] <stevestallings> brute force wins again 8-)
[15:26:27] <SWPadnos> depends on the dirt
[15:26:28] <les> heh
[15:27:40] <les> I can't talk about it much since I do that sort of thing for clients....
[15:27:42] <les> but
[15:27:54] <stevestallings> les, do the FF terms react differently in torque mode?
[15:27:56] <les> bubble gum wrappers have holograms.
[15:28:24] <les> Steve: yeah they work...well...properly
[15:28:36] <les> o order is seldom used
[15:29:16] <les> first order can help with power supply voltage droop and velocity dependent friction
[15:29:27] <les> second with accel lag
[15:29:35] <les> they work real good
[15:29:45] <les> a little goes a long way though
[15:30:03] <SWPadnos> it would be great to have a tuner application of some sort (or documentation on how to do it)
[15:30:21] <anonimasu> well, atleast for the servocards..
[15:30:22] <les> yeah
[15:30:32] <les> might be one somewhere
[15:30:39] <anonimasu> les: you could calculate your settings pretty easily couldnt you?
[15:30:52] <les> I use Zeigler -Nichols but modify it a bit
[15:31:07] <anonimasu> just a algo to adjust within the limits you set..
[15:31:21] <anonimasu> until the optimal setting is found
[15:31:25] <les> ZN is a simple algo
[15:31:25] <anonimasu> bruteforce ;)
[15:31:33] <anonimasu> I have no idea what it is..
[15:31:40] <les> but it goes for a little overshoot
[15:31:41] <anonimasu> looking it up
[15:32:12] <les> turn all gain off
[15:32:31] <les> bring up p till steady state oscillation
[15:32:39] <SWPadnos> http://www.chem.mtu.edu/~tbco/cm416/zn.html
[15:32:42] <les> note the setting and period...
[15:32:52] <les> put results in some simple math
[15:33:02] <SWPadnos> (that's Ziegler though :) )
[15:33:18] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[15:33:22] <SWPadnos> though it doesn't include FF params
[15:33:53] <les> yeah that's it
[15:34:04] <SWPadnos> unless Ti and Td are actually FF terms (that's not stated)
[15:34:16] <les> no they are not
[15:35:06] <les> FF just tells the controller about the machine dynamics
[15:35:50] <les> If the controller had a ff math model of the exact dynamics a servo feedback loop would not be needed!
[15:36:29] <SWPadnos> I've had some trouble finding a good reference on PIDFF loops
[15:36:45] <les> but any information...even a 3 term truncated Mclauren series...can improve phase margin
[15:37:56] <les> FF as a power series can even do anti-vibration and stuff
[15:38:08] <les> put zeros over poles and such
[15:39:00] <les> but it gets complicated....poles in x are affected by y position etc
[15:39:35] <SWPadnos> yeah - I don't really want to deal with all that at this point :)
[15:39:55] <stevestallings> McLauren series? more info... where?
[15:40:10] <SWPadnos> look up F1 Supercar :)
[15:40:58] <les> A Mclauren series is simply a Taylor series expanded about zero
[15:41:08] <les> remember that stuff now? heh
[15:41:13] <SWPadnos> nope
[15:41:17] <les> ha
[15:41:19] <stevestallings> simply he says to a math idiot 8-)
[15:41:19] <SWPadnos> damn Taylor
[15:41:31] <SWPadnos> Proof is left as an exercise for the reader
[15:41:42] <les> uh ...yeah
[15:41:53] <stevestallings> I know that exersize, Everclear=190
[15:42:00] <les> calculators and things use em to do trig finctions
[15:42:07] <les> etc
[15:43:03] <stevestallings> so how do the FF terms in EMC compare to the more advance methods?
[15:44:02] <les> pretty good really
[15:44:08] <les> very effective
[15:44:31] <stevestallings> so you can get most of the benifits without using models...
[15:45:29] <les> emc is missing a configurable notch and lowpass that most controls these days have
[15:45:41] <les> but still the ff works well
[15:45:59] <les> just set for min following error experimentally
[15:49:19] <les> properly set you can run with much lower I and even D gains
[15:50:05] <les> I is used for things like long runs at speed with vel dependent friction
[15:50:20] <les> but adversly effects phase margin
[15:50:24] <stevestallings> I remember some comments about running with I=0
[15:50:47] <les> FF1 does similarly but does not affect stability at all
[15:51:32] <les> I is kinda a "use it only if you have to" thing
[15:53:57] <les> but getting ferror down really low and setting estop on ferror low as well really protects the machine from crashes
[15:54:38] <les> Mine is set so tight that estop will happen when the tool starts getting dull!
[15:56:14] <anonimasu> :)
[15:56:54] <anonimasu> it seems my stability issue was because of the soundcard.
[15:57:46] <les> I guess "virtual" soundcards use a lot of cpu time
[15:57:54] <les> and winmodems
[15:57:59] <anonimasu> hm..
[15:58:04] <anonimasu> it was a sb awe 64
[15:58:09] <anonimasu> but it had issues....
[15:58:10] <anonimasu> ;)
[15:58:14] <les> oh
[15:58:20] <anonimasu> going to replace it with the other soundcard..
[15:58:35] <anonimasu> I need the midi port for a handwheel
[15:58:45] <anonimasu> les: have you run any alu on your router?
[15:58:53] <anonimasu> can you compensate for low hp with high speed?
[15:59:15] <les> I have run just a little
[15:59:35] <les> yeah pretty high speed
[16:00:05] <anonimasu> hm ok..
[16:00:17] <les> use one of these:
[16:00:19] <les> http://www.neumotors.com/neuproducts.asp
[16:00:41] <les> saw that on cad_cam
[16:01:01] <anonimasu> ok?
[16:01:21] <les> I am about to break into that servo power discussion
[16:01:31] <anonimasu> the one on cad_cam
[16:01:37] <anonimasu> havent seen it..
[16:01:53] <anonimasu> I am curious if I should gear even more to be able to do alu..
[16:01:53] <les> the one about running them really fast and gearing them down to get the best power utilization
[16:01:57] <anonimasu> at high speed..
[16:02:15] <anonimasu> sounds like compensating for small servos..
[16:02:15] <anonimasu> :)
[16:02:28] <anonimasu> http://www.neumotors.com/motors/neu_neu1500.asp
[16:02:29] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:02:32] <les> I have an urge to give a little moment of inertia lesson there
[16:02:42] <anonimasu> one of thoose 1506
[16:02:51] <anonimasu> 500w
[16:03:06] <les> reflected inertia the square of the transmission ratio!
[16:03:08] <stevestallings> though about that with someone offering a 10:1 reduction example 8-)
[16:03:11] <anonimasu> the datrondynamics machines has 600w spindle..
[16:03:36] <anonimasu> well if you gear it down to half..
[16:03:52] <anonimasu> 350w.. 12000rpm
[16:03:54] <les> yeah steve....10:1 and the motor inertia is now 100 times bigger looking from the load
[16:04:16] <les> I had better write something about that before someone wastes money
[16:04:29] <anonimasu> hm, 1515
[16:04:29] <anonimasu> 1200-1500 Watts Continuous
[16:04:29] <anonimasu> 2700Watts - 30sec
[16:04:30] <anonimasu> Max rpm: 60,000
[16:04:40] <les> cool motors huh?
[16:04:49] <anonimasu> I wonder what price that one is..
[16:04:50] <stevestallings> prices? dealers?
[16:05:00] <anonimasu> http://www.neumotors.com/motors/neu_neu1500.asp
[16:05:08] <les> I don't know...have the urge to call them
[16:05:18] <anonimasu> well even if it's 300$ it's not a big deal.
[16:05:23] <les> yeah
[16:05:28] <anonimasu> or 500$
[16:05:37] <anonimasu> price/performance
[16:05:38] <les> prob pretty cheap
[16:05:44] <anonimasu> if it meets the specs..
[16:05:49] <anonimasu> geared down 2:1
[16:05:57] <anonimasu> makes for pretty good power..
[16:06:13] <anonimasu> whould be plenty..
[16:06:43] <anonimasu> I should mail them tonigt
[16:06:50] <anonimasu> using a large low rpm spindle makes no sense..
[16:07:24] <stevestallings> they show three wires, are the drivers external, they make no mention
[16:08:10] <anonimasu> 90% sure they are
[16:08:56] <anonimasu> milling alu on my spindle speeds is hell..
[16:09:39] <anonimasu> stevestallings: I think you need a driver also
[16:10:15] <stevestallings> yep, typical one at http://www.kontronik.com/
[16:10:37] <anonimasu> les: how's the work on sq going?
[16:11:43] <les> anon SQ is dead for us...but a better TP is alive
[16:11:54] <anonimasu> ok?
[16:12:01] <les> Paul is on the plane back right now
[16:12:15] <les> we will dicuss when he gets home
[16:12:25] <anonimasu> I started running emc2 again.. it's a joy
[16:12:28] <anonimasu> very nice
[16:12:36] <les> great
[16:12:42] <anonimasu> emc1 is much much slower
[16:13:13] <anonimasu> I dont know why though..
[16:13:24] <anonimasu> but it's a 10x performance increase
[16:13:24] <les> to run or compile?
[16:13:27] <anonimasu> run
[16:13:32] <les> really
[16:13:40] <les> step right?
[16:13:43] <anonimasu> more responsive to jogging and stuff like that
[16:13:48] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:13:59] <anonimasu> that's the main thing I've seen..
[16:14:11] <anonimasu> I no longer have to featr that it misses the event when I esc it..
[16:14:28] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:15:18] <les> paul hit the big red estop button a few dozen times when he was hacking up a stg driver for bdi4 branch
[16:15:26] <anonimasu> :)
[16:15:44] <anonimasu> hehe
[16:15:49] <anonimasu> scary
[16:16:12] <anonimasu> I'll be getting access to a real cnc mill next week sometime buying one at work..
[16:16:16] <les> yeah...I really should have dropped the current limit on the amps a bunch
[16:16:29] <anonimasu> although a abene with a heidenhan controller
[16:16:30] <les> but didn't want to take them out and apart
[16:16:36] <anonimasu> pretty old.. but still
[16:17:40] <les> I still have to run down to atlanta to pick up that BP series II
[16:17:44] <anonimasu> :)
[16:17:53] <anonimasu> I'll keep the orginal control on it..
[16:18:05] <les> I have delayed a bit to see what happens with the emc TP
[16:18:15] <anonimasu> I was playing with the thought to retrofit it with emc..
[16:18:30] <anonimasu> but well, as long as emc dosent have a good online programming interface that's impossible..
[16:18:33] <les> The current one would perform pretty poorly even at some BP speeds
[16:18:38] <anonimasu> has to be usable by non techies..
[16:18:42] <les> like cutting plastic or al
[16:18:56] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:20:01] <anonimasu> I love machining plastics..
[16:20:06] <anonimasu> I with alu was as easy..
[16:20:26] <les> yeah...acetals like lexan are a joy
[16:20:37] <les> oops not lexan
[16:20:40] <anonimasu> well it should be but I dont understand how..
[16:20:41] <anonimasu> heh
[16:20:42] <les> that is PC
[16:20:46] <anonimasu> yeah I know what you mean..
[16:20:51] <anonimasu> I have some white hard stuff..
[16:20:58] <anonimasu> that cuts like a joy
[16:21:22] <les> I use acetal for most anything that will be machined
[16:21:38] <anonimasu> but well the parts I need to make now has to be in alu..
[16:21:40] <anonimasu> for durability..
[16:22:19] <les> yes well I use al mostly for corrosion resistance
[16:22:19] <anonimasu> maybe I should up the speed and take lighter passes..
[16:22:40] <anonimasu> from 300mm/min to 1000mm/min
[16:22:42] <les> 12L14 leaded for parts not requiring strength or welding
[16:23:01] <anonimasu> and keep the speed ~4000
[16:23:10] <les> 1144 for hardened stuff (prehard)
[16:23:23] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[16:23:29] <anonimasu> I have 6063
[16:23:32] <les> and 303L SS only when I have to!
[16:23:39] <anonimasu> hehe
[16:23:51] <anonimasu> does that sound reasonale?
[16:23:55] <anonimasu> reasonable...
[16:24:14] <anonimasu> my connection is lagged that's why I make typos
[16:24:24] <les> I have al in stock as cast tooling plate, 6061, 6063, 2024, and 7075
[16:24:39] <les> 6063 is fine
[16:25:03] <les> depending on temper
[16:25:20] <anonimasu> :)
[16:25:29] <les> I think 6061 welds better...I forgot
[16:25:57] <les> I don't weld al anyway....mig not big enough
[16:26:20] <anonimasu> I tig it at work... :)
[16:26:24] <anonimasu> although I suck at tig welding
[16:26:49] <les> I just mig steel tubing
[16:26:57] <les> pretty doggone easy
[16:27:01] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:27:12] <anonimasu> got any idea on cutting data for 6063?
[16:27:28] <les> no...have to hunt it up
[16:27:31] <anonimasu> especially depth of cut
[16:27:39] <les> let me check
[16:28:08] <anonimasu> please do
[16:32:06] <anonimasu> I think it's T6
[16:32:40] <les> common extrusion alloy
[16:32:53] <les> better corrosion resistance than 6061
[16:33:18] <les> hmm can't find feed/speed
[16:34:03] <anonimasu> hmm checked it it's 6060
[16:34:18] <anonimasu> Al Mg Si 0,5
[16:37:44] <les> finding nothing specific for 6063
[16:37:47] <les> http://www.denford.com/Feeds%20and%20Speeds.html
[16:38:38] <SWPadnos> that's what Machinery's Handbook is for :)
[16:40:13] <les> yup
[16:41:57] <les> well I had better do some work...client coming in a little while
[16:42:05] <les> biaw!
[16:42:19] <SWPadnos> heh - you should see all the digital camera parts in front of my keyboard :)
[16:42:23] <SWPadnos> see you
[16:42:52] <SWPadnos> I suppose I should do some real work as well - see you guys later
[16:42:57] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[16:43:25] <anonimasu> laters...
[16:45:49] <anonimasu> hello jmm
[16:46:07] <Jymmm> hey anonimasu
[16:46:42] <anonimasu> what's up?
[16:47:07] <Jymmm> getting ready to go on a shopping spree at HF today
[16:47:15] <anonimasu> nice
[16:47:16] <anonimasu> :)
[16:47:59] <Jymmm> hopefully they'll have everything and I can get out of there for under $350
[16:48:12] <anonimasu> :)
[16:48:18] <anonimasu> I am looking for cutting data I cant find
[16:48:28] <Jymmm> oh joy
[16:49:38] <anonimasu> for 6060 alu
[16:49:42] <anonimasu> :/
[16:49:56] <Jymmm> what you need to know?
[16:50:27] <anonimasu> as much as possible
[16:50:33] <anonimasu> depth of cut feed per tooth
[16:51:30] <SWP_Away> depth of cut depends on spindle HP
[16:51:52] <anonimasu> hm ok..
[16:51:57] <anonimasu> I could feed more then and take lighter cuts..
[16:52:20] <anonimasu> :)
[16:52:30] <SWP_Away> unless you're talking about chip thickness (versus the depth the tool is at)
[16:52:42] <anonimasu> nope..
[16:52:53] <anonimasu> got any calc for KW/depth
[16:53:15] <anonimasu> ?
[16:53:19] <anonimasu> or any figure
[16:53:32] <SWP_Away> 0.25 HP per cubic inch removed per minute
[16:53:37] <SWP_Away> fo aluminum
[16:53:39] <SWP_Away> for
[16:53:45] <SWP_Away> http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/019703.html
[16:53:59] <anonimasu> very nice
[16:54:46] <SWP_Away> I think all the info you need is there, except for the actual recommended SFM fro your aluminum
[16:54:56] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:54:56] <SWP_Away> for (again)
[16:55:10] <SWP_Away> which is what you're looking for in the first place :)
[16:55:22] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:55:25] <anonimasu> but the other data aswell
[16:55:57] <anonimasu> If the horsepower available cannot handle the mrr, revise the depth of cut or the width of cut, but do not reduce the feed rate. Milling cutters with insufficient feed tend to generate heat in the workpiece and tool life will be adversely effected.
[16:56:24] <Jymmm> 6061 feed=15 (opt), 8 (avg) S=165 (ft/min)
[16:56:39] <Jymmm> using HSS
[16:56:47] <anonimasu> ok
[16:56:49] <Jymmm> on an end mill
[16:57:02] <Jymmm> you want face mill too?
[16:57:08] <anonimasu> no
[16:57:17] <Jymmm> fine, see how you are?!
[16:57:28] <anonimasu> :)
[16:57:38] <anonimasu> feed =15 ipm?
[16:57:59] <anonimasu> 381mm/min
[16:58:05] <Jymmm> feed (0.001 in./tooth)
[16:58:14] <SWP_Away> my Bridgeport manual says around 600 SFM for rough cuts, and around 1000 SFM for light and finish cuts
[16:58:25] <anonimasu> 0.02mm per tooth
[16:58:49] <Jymmm> End Milling: Table data for end milling are based on a 3-tooth, 20-degree helix angle tool with a diameter of 1.0 inch, an axial depth of cut of 0.2 inch, and a radial
[16:58:49] <Jymmm> depth of cut of 1 inch (full slot).
[16:59:31] <anonimasu> hm.. ok
[16:59:41] <Jymmm> Use Table 15b to adjust speeds for other feeds and axial depths of cut, and Table 15c to adjust speeds if the radial depth of cut is less than
[16:59:41] <Jymmm> the tool diameter. Speeds are valid for all tool diameters.
[17:00:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[17:00:44] <anonimasu> then I just need to change my depth of cut...
[17:00:54] <anonimasu> until I have enough hp to pull it off
[17:01:25] <Jymmm> anonimasu I wasn't try to "tell you so", just wanted to make sure the info I gave you wasn't "out of context".
[17:01:48] <Jymmm> anonimasu Like I have a fscking clue what I just pasted =)
[17:01:53] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[17:01:55] <anonimasu> I have :D
[17:02:31] <Jymmm> anonimasu Well, I guess I have half-a-clue, or I wouldn't have been able to find what you were looking for =)
[17:02:40] <anonimasu> hehe
[17:02:46] <anonimasu> atleast pretend you do ;)
[17:02:50] <anonimasu> thanks fot the help :)
[17:03:14] <Jymmm> Eh, if I can't dazzle em with brillance, I'll just baffle em with bullshit
[17:03:21] <anonimasu> haha
[17:03:29] <anonimasu> how did it go with the drawing?
[17:04:01] <Jymmm> anonimasu it hasn't. I started working on the shopping lists instead.
[17:04:08] <Jymmm> that's plural
[17:04:19] <anonimasu> buying that much?
[17:04:48] <Jymmm> sorta kinda, from multiple places.
[17:04:52] <Jymmm> parts too
[17:05:10] <anonimasu> nice
[17:05:11] <anonimasu> :)
[17:06:10] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ is back
[17:06:18] <acemi> in BDI-4.20 , does JOGGING_POLARITY work?
[17:07:10] <acemi> I change its value but there is no change
[17:07:17] <anonimasu> acemi: if your axis:es goes the wrong way you most likely have your output_sclae set wrong :)
[17:08:06] <acemi> the axis' way don't change when I change this parameter
[17:08:50] <acemi> I try "JOGGING_POLARITY = 0" and "JOGGING_POLARITY = -1"
[17:08:51] <anonimasu> add a - to your output scale..
[17:09:01] <anonimasu> that'll reverse the axis.. making the jog go to the right way..
[17:09:41] <anonimasu> :)
[17:09:56] <anonimasu> I've never tried jogging_polarity.. :/
[17:10:09] <acemi> thanks anonimasu, this will solve my problem
[17:10:31] <anonimasu> the bonus is that your axis:es will go the right way when you output stuff from cam programs :)
[17:11:15] <anonimasu> np come back after you've tried and tell us if it works
[17:11:33] <acemi> I'll try at the weekend
[17:11:37] <anonimasu> ok
[17:11:38] <anonimasu> :)
[17:12:02] <acemi> I'm at home now
[17:12:21] <acemi> I'll bee at work in weekend :)
[17:14:30] <Jymmm> bbl
[17:14:31] <acemi> must I change the INPUT_SACLE too? I use stepper motor
[17:42:11] <anonimasu> yes
[17:42:23] <anonimasu> I think they need to be in the same - +
[17:42:25] <anonimasu> to work
[17:42:30] <anonimasu> otherwise you get strange errors :)
[17:42:37] <anonimasu> brb dinner
[17:43:49] <acemi> ok
[17:57:06] <anonimasu> iab
[18:08:04] <les> oh boy
[18:08:21] <anonimasu> wb leds
[18:08:22] <anonimasu> err les
[18:08:29] <les> I did post to cad_cam about the inertia
[18:08:37] <anonimasu> got hell?
[18:08:47] <anonimasu> ;)
[18:09:08] <les> mariss posted back, but he got the inertia formula wrong and the reflected impedance backwards
[18:09:10] <anonimasu> people tend to get angry when you kill their theories
[18:09:28] <anonimasu> ^_^
[18:09:41] <les> he said it was 4th power of radius...it is second power.
[18:10:36] <les> an he said gearing was done to raise the inertia up to the load...
[18:10:39] <les> no.
[18:10:43] <les> but
[18:11:06] <anonimasu> gearing is to match your motor to the inertia of the table..
[18:11:06] <anonimasu> isnt it..
[18:11:24] <les> I am not going to beat him up on it....heh...he offered to give me a free g100.
[18:11:37] <anonimasu> g100?
[18:11:44] <SWP_Away> G200x?
[18:11:46] <les> renames g2002
[18:11:46] <anonimasu> never heard about it
[18:11:46] <anonimasu> oh
[18:11:48] <anonimasu> nice
[18:12:50] <les> well for an example my x axis has about 6 meters of ballscrew and 500 kg gantry
[18:13:22] <les> and it is a 1:1 match with the sem motor's rotor inertia
[18:13:52] <anonimasu> on my next machine perhaps I should care :)
[18:13:54] <anonimasu> ^_^
[18:14:02] <anonimasu> that's nice
[18:14:05] <les> heh
[18:14:27] <anonimasu> if I found a good deal on servos I'd do it :)
[18:14:32] <anonimasu> but there are no good deals..
[18:14:32] <anonimasu> :D
[18:14:41] <les> a way geared down motor can have VERY poor accel of the axis
[18:14:48] <anonimasu> yep
[18:15:28] <anonimasu> it's a bit different with a cnc machine then a motor..
[18:15:31] <anonimasu> since accel has to be controlled..
[18:15:47] <anonimasu> err normal motor..
[18:15:53] <les> yup min corner radius is kinda important
[18:16:32] <anonimasu> :)
[18:18:27] <anonimasu> argh..
[18:18:36] <anonimasu> visualmill is on crack
[18:18:52] <anonimasu> ah nah just bad values..
[18:18:52] <les> everything is heh
[18:19:02] <anonimasu> 289mm/min for alu..
[18:19:04] <les> oh that kind
[18:19:12] <les> I thought you meant cracked
[18:19:16] <anonimasu> nah
[18:19:18] <anonimasu> *grins*
[18:19:39] <les> 289
[18:19:42] <anonimasu> but it gave me 1690mm/min
[18:19:43] <anonimasu> ;)
[18:19:47] <anonimasu> first
[18:20:32] <les> oh...bit of a difference
[18:20:40] <anonimasu> now I just need to find out max depth of cut..
[18:23:24] <daryl> Finally... rtai tests run without hanging.
[18:23:42] <anonimasu> nice
[18:26:19] <les> well back to work...
[18:26:20] <anonimasu> well according the the calcs I should be able to remove 8"^2
[18:26:26] <daryl> piece of crap
[18:26:27] <anonimasu> 8 cubic inches..
[18:26:37] <anonimasu> but well, that sound s like loads.. compared to what I can ..
[18:28:05] <anonimasu> well brb..
[18:28:07] <anonimasu> playing around
[18:42:56] <joe2000chevy> HELLO
[18:43:03] <joe2000chevy> oops sry for caps
[18:43:10] <joe2000chevy> im in cadd
[18:43:17] <anonimasu> hello
[18:43:38] <joe2000chevy> how is everything
[18:43:49] <anonimasu> it's pretty well
[18:44:03] <joe2000chevy> kewl
[18:44:08] <anonimasu> leaving to buy somthing to drink in a bit
[18:44:18] <anonimasu> been trying emc2 this week and it seems to work great
[18:45:21] <daryl> really?
[18:45:34] <daryl> On a 2.6 kernel?
[18:46:03] <anonimasu> no
[18:46:04] <anonimasu> 2.4
[18:47:20] <joe2000chevy> I have been having to use windows Mach2 instead of EMC, EMC Apears to make my z axis loose steps but in mach2 my machine runs perfect.
[18:47:59] <anonimasu> hm that's strange
[18:48:25] <joe2000chevy> here is my new DIY Machine.. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10067
[18:50:27] <anonimasu> looks like a nice machine
[18:51:08] <anonimasu> :)
[18:51:47] <joe2000chevy> thanks
[18:52:07] <joe2000chevy> i redoing the gantry 100% CNC
[18:53:17] <anonimasu> nice
[18:53:21] <joe2000chevy> and makesure everything works good. i have a few people that want me to cut parts for them so they can build one, Its a Hobby CNC but cuts well
[18:53:50] <joe2000chevy> But still puzzled by EMC
[18:53:51] <anonimasu> I am looking at the video now
[18:54:07] <anonimasu> hm, tried slowing down your accel on Z
[18:54:10] <anonimasu> ?
[18:54:12] <anonimasu> ?
[18:54:14] <anonimasu> err
[18:54:28] <joe2000chevy> well it works fine in windows
[18:54:41] <anonimasu> yeah, but are you sure you have all your settings right?=
[18:54:45] <anonimasu> accel's and such..
[18:55:01] <joe2000chevy> i use the feed override
[18:55:19] <joe2000chevy> but i am a little fuzy on the accel. part
[18:55:25] <anonimasu> steppers dosent respond well to high accels
[18:55:31] <joe2000chevy> true
[18:55:32] <anonimasu> atleast in my experience
[18:56:02] <anonimasu> you should try tweaking them down and trying until you get the Z to not loose steps
[18:56:55] <anonimasu> :)
[18:58:43] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[18:58:48] <anonimasu> I had some(lots) of messing around before I got my config working as I wanted it
[19:03:43] <anonimasu> brb going to the kiosk
[19:07:51] <alex_joni> greetings
[19:08:53] <alex_joni> anyone home?
[19:10:16] <joe2000chevy> yea, its a little bit of a pain only because you have to close the program edit ini file then open program back up
[19:10:31] <joe2000chevy> hi alex
[19:10:43] <alex_joni> hey joe
[19:10:47] <alex_joni> whatcha tweaking?
[19:11:01] <daryl> Hey alex.
[19:11:06] <joe2000chevy> well EMC is loosing steps i think,
[19:11:21] <joe2000chevy> my machine works good in mach2 in windows xp
[19:11:42] <joe2000chevy> anon was saying i need to tweek the accel.
[19:11:58] <joe2000chevy> im not sure what to set it at.
[19:12:12] <joe2000chevy> i just got tiered of messing up some stock. lol
[19:12:52] <alex_joni> joe: hmmm
[19:12:55] <alex_joni> hey daryl
[19:14:04] <joe2000chevy> this is the machine i made and finishing new 100% cnc cut gantry now, instead of some parts from tablesaw. because the cuts were a little off, but not they will be perfect..
[19:14:05] <joe2000chevy> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10067
[19:22:29] <daryl> Nice job joe.
[19:26:43] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes away
[19:28:50] <joe2000chevy> Thanks Daryl
[19:30:18] <joe2000chevy> now i will be cutting the parts for other people that want to build it, a good way to get a beginner machine, but a larger one. than the standard small DIY machines.
[19:30:44] <joe2000chevy> I just need to figure out the settings in EMC
[19:31:05] <joe2000chevy> Accel. and such for my motors.
[19:31:33] <joe2000chevy> I have it in Mach2 and machine works flawles, but in EMC it loses steps
[19:32:20] <daryl> Your controller chips look like mine... are they SLA7051M's?
[19:33:17] <A-L-P-H-A> been up 5-6 hrs. need a nap
[19:33:18] <A-L-P-H-A> :/
[19:35:06] <joe2000chevy> not sure it was a kit i bought....
[19:35:20] <joe2000chevy> hobbycnc.com might say on their site.
[19:35:37] <daryl> I take it their not in clear view at the moment? :)
[19:35:42] <daryl> they're even
[19:35:45] <joe2000chevy> im at work
[19:35:48] <daryl> ah
[19:35:51] <joe2000chevy> lol
[19:36:05] <joe2000chevy> yea, damn work, don't they know we have hobbies??
[19:36:19] <daryl> I quit my job. Now I just hobby.
[19:36:28] <joe2000chevy> lucky
[19:36:30] <joe2000chevy> ??
[19:36:38] <daryl> Depends on how you look at it. ;)
[19:36:43] <joe2000chevy> haha
[19:36:46] <joe2000chevy> true
[19:38:10] <daryl> They sanded off the surfaces of the chips in their pictures.
[19:39:00] <daryl> There's one pic where they're almost readable... Look like they're probably the same.
[19:41:20] <joe2000chevy> hahaha
[19:41:33] <joe2000chevy> did not want anyone to copy it i guess.
[19:41:43] <joe2000chevy> but it does work good
[19:41:50] <daryl> Yeah. Those chips are pretty easy to use.
[19:41:56] <joe2000chevy> i weed 32v through it
[19:42:01] <daryl> Anyone could copy their board. :)
[19:42:07] <joe2000chevy> oops feed not weed*
[19:42:22] <daryl> yeah. I need to find myself a decent power supply for mine.
[19:42:32] <joe2000chevy> i use three 12v comp psu's wired in series.
[19:42:45] <joe2000chevy> cost me about 10 bucks total
[19:42:55] <joe2000chevy> 32v 8a
[19:43:01] <daryl> Heh heh... I don't have the space for it.
[19:43:25] <joe2000chevy> get them from computer repair places.
[19:43:34] <joe2000chevy> they have them laying around
[19:43:36] <joe2000chevy> lol
[19:43:51] <daryl> My shop lives in my dining "room" in my apartment.
[19:44:07] <daryl> Literally no space for 3 supplies.
[19:45:09] <joe2000chevy> oh, man there is no way i could have mine like that, to much flying stock....
[19:45:41] <joe2000chevy> as it is i'm going to build a plastic room around it and also a dust collection from a shopvac
[19:46:03] <daryl> Yeah... I just mill small pieces of acrylic. Not too bad for dust.
[19:46:57] <joe2000chevy> MDF is all over the place
[19:47:12] <joe2000chevy> but the sacrifices we do
[19:47:58] <daryl> Dammit. There is something really wrong with this thing.
[19:52:49] <joe2000chevy> ?
[19:56:17] <daryl> Trying to get emc to run on one of my computers.
[19:57:56] <joe2000chevy> BDI?
[19:58:21] <daryl> No... manual build.
[19:58:32] <SWP_Away> what base distribution?
[19:58:33] <joe2000chevy> ah, i did the BDI version
[19:58:34] <daryl> Have you used bdi?
[19:58:36] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[19:58:48] <daryl> Did it let you select what partitions to install linux on?
[19:58:52] <joe2000chevy> loaded and just edited ini and awazy i went
[19:58:58] <joe2000chevy> yes
[19:59:08] <joe2000chevy> i have a duel boot with it
[19:59:28] <daryl> Maybe I'll download that and give it a whirl. I have existing stuff on that machine that I really don't want to kill.
[19:59:43] <joe2000chevy> kewl
[20:49:27] <anonimasu> iab
[20:55:49] <joe2000chevy> hi
[21:11:06] <anonimasu> how's things going?
[21:17:47] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is still giggling from last night. :)
[21:18:33] <Phydbleep> My back is killing me, but it's bolted, belted and ready to wire. :)
[21:26:51] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:26:52] <anonimasu> ok
[21:26:53] <anonimasu> nice
[21:26:58] <anonimasu> I'll be back tomorrow
[21:27:00] <anonimasu> going to rest
[21:27:45] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is plotting a panel layout.
[21:28:01] <Phydbleep> You see any problems with video arcade buttons for the user interface? http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/5891xxl.htm
[21:30:37] <SWPadnos> other than the fact that they're pretty big (and deep), they should be pretty good
[21:31:34] <Phydbleep> I don't care about the deep.. Got lots of room behind the panel for them.
[21:32:04] <SWPadnos> they are a little bigger than 29mm standard buttons, but not by too much - so they'd probably be fine
[21:32:11] <SWPadnos> they are nice and inexpensive
[21:32:13] <Phydbleep> And I wanted big so it's easy to slap the STOP button. :)
[21:33:36] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: Hehehe.. You're telling me they were cheap. I traded a 12 pack of beer for a whole bag of switches and parts. :)
[21:33:55] <SWPadnos> that's a pretty good deal (depending on the beer)
[21:34:49] <Phydbleep> 20+ switches, 4 joysticks, and some other random arcade parts for a 12 pack of Keystone. :)
[21:35:05] <Phydbleep> <$10
[21:35:17] <SWPadnos> that's a good deal then. :)
[21:36:40] <Phydbleep> I have.. Red for STOP, Green for GO, Yellow for RESET, Blue for BRAKE and 4 White ones for Direction/Speed.
[21:38:38] <SWPadnos> they have some nice stainless keyboards
[21:39:16] <Phydbleep> I'm leaving room for a jog-wheel and a 320x240 LCD for a g-code monitor.
[21:39:32] <SWPadnos> that'll be interesting
[21:40:31] <Phydbleep> Yeah, I've got an idea for an on the fly g-code editor ui. uses the panel buttons and the wheel to select/edit the code. :)
[21:41:19] <Phydbleep> AJ! :)
[21:41:20] <SWPadnos> heh - like entering your initials into a video game?
[21:41:20] <alex_joni> hey
[21:41:22] <SWPadnos> hi
[21:41:29] <alex_joni> couldn't sleep ;)
[21:41:35] <alex_joni> I was too excited
[21:41:44] <alex_joni> I got emc2 to run on 2.6
[21:41:50] <SWPadnos> cool!
[21:41:54] <alex_joni> SWP: was looking the wrong way all along
[21:42:06] <alex_joni> I only needed to increase PERIOD in the ini
[21:42:06] <SWPadnos> what turned out to be the trouble?
[21:42:08] <alex_joni> :)
[21:42:25] <SWPadnos> heh - I actually thought of that, but didn't want to insult your intelligence
[21:42:30] <SWPadnos> stupid :)
[21:42:42] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: Pretty much.. "HIGH SCORE: 32T GEAR - 00:03:20.41"
[21:42:44] <alex_joni> seems the simple things .. get out of sight
[21:42:53] <SWPadnos> indeed they do.
[21:42:59] <alex_joni> SWP: but there's gotta be a reason why it's so slow
[21:43:10] <alex_joni> for now I do like that it runs
[21:43:12] <SWPadnos> you mean the minimum PERIOD?
[21:43:33] <alex_joni> but I am on a 1.5 GHz PC here, and 60000 nsecs seems a bit much
[21:43:36] <SWPadnos> are you running (mechanical) hardware with it
[21:43:53] <alex_joni> I run 50000 on my 300 Mhz Geode (2.4 kernel)
[21:43:58] <alex_joni> no mechanical stuff
[21:44:01] <alex_joni> only dev
[21:44:10] <SWPadnos> ok - hmmm
[21:45:25] <SWPadnos> stepgen has way more options than freqmod (I think), but they're in a switch statement and shouldn't really affect performance that much
[21:45:42] <SWPadnos> I wonder if the stepgen module is using floats for some reason???
[21:45:57] <Phydbleep> http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95093100.htm < Wheel. :)
[21:46:40] <alex_joni> SWP: may I remind you that this is emc2?
[21:46:41] <alex_joni> ;)
[21:46:47] <alex_joni> ahhh...
[21:46:49] <alex_joni> stepgen
[21:46:58] <alex_joni> you think HAL clutters it up?
[21:47:05] <alex_joni> I thoght motmod does
[21:47:17] <SWPadnos> I don't know
[21:47:34] <alex_joni> I'll try running stepgen with low periods, and see what happens
[21:47:42] <alex_joni> even freqgen
[21:47:48] <alex_joni> and other hal modules
[21:47:54] <alex_joni> but I suspect motmod
[21:47:58] <SWPadnos> isn't stepgen the HAL equivalent to freqgen?
[21:48:07] <alex_joni> nope
[21:48:14] <alex_joni> that's freqmod (on emc1)
[21:48:18] <SWPadnos> I thought freqgen was an emc1 thing
[21:48:20] <SWPadnos> ah
[21:48:21] <alex_joni> freqgen is on emc2
[21:48:36] <alex_joni> mod-stuff is emc-related
[21:48:44] <alex_joni> gen-stuff is hal-related
[21:49:22] <SWPadnos> this is on the kbuild-0-1 branch?
[21:49:29] <alex_joni> yup
[21:51:47] <alex_joni> there are a few more things to do, but mostly it works
[21:51:53] <alex_joni> some Makefile clean-up
[21:52:08] <alex_joni> there is an issue on compiling on BDI-TNG
[21:52:20] <alex_joni> a lot of testing ;)
[21:54:48] <SWPadnos> hmm - I need to get to other stuff, but I wonder where the parport "pin aggregator" function is called
[21:54:57] <SWPadnos> (ie, where the actual hardware is written to)
[21:55:04] <alex_joni> update
[21:55:08] <alex_joni> update_smthg
[21:55:13] <alex_joni> can't recall
[21:56:09] <alex_joni> static void read_port(void *arg, long period);
[21:56:10] <alex_joni> static void write_port(void *arg, long period);
[21:56:10] <alex_joni> static void read_all(void *arg, long period);
[21:56:10] <alex_joni> static void write_all(void *arg, long period);
[21:56:17] <alex_joni> this is on emc2
[21:56:36] <SWPadnos> well - consider the fact that the stepgen / freqgen modules (each one, if there's more than one) have to generate their own outputs, which are stored as a full byte per output bit
[21:56:50] <SWPadnos> then these bytes are combined into a byte, and output to the port.
[21:57:03] <SWPadnos> I wonder if this happens once for each axis, or once per PERIOD
[21:57:19] <alex_joni> once per PERIOD I think
[21:58:18] <SWPadnos> that would be optimal ;)
[21:58:25] <alex_joni> how so?
[21:58:52] <SWPadnos> well - outputting the parallel port output byte once per period is the least burden possible
[21:59:17] <alex_joni> well.. you have an hal module called parport
[21:59:26] <alex_joni> or.. more than one (depending on your setup)
[21:59:45] <alex_joni> and this module doesn't know nothing of axes & step & dir pins, etc
[21:59:46] <SWPadnos> if each axis has its own freqgen (which it must), and they are all on the same port, then it would really suck to regenerate the output bytes 3 times (once for eacg freqgen instance)
[22:00:06] <alex_joni> the parport module has some memory assigned
[22:00:19] <alex_joni> and when time comes it takes from there and outb's
[22:00:29] <alex_joni> the memory gets written by other modules
[22:00:42] <alex_joni> be it freqgen or 3xfreqgen
[22:00:44] <SWPadnos> I know how it works on a broad scale, I'm just not sure exactly when the parport (or other driver) is asked to update its physical output pins
[22:01:01] <alex_joni> that depends on the function that it exports
[22:01:02] <SWPadnos> or how many times per (whatever)_CYCLE
[22:01:08] <alex_joni> and where that function is called
[22:01:18] <alex_joni> each RT hal module exports a function
[22:01:31] <alex_joni> and you can bind that function to a thread (RT thread)
[22:01:37] <alex_joni> say .. servo_thread
[22:01:41] <alex_joni> or base_thread
[22:02:00] <alex_joni> and depending on where you link it (you can specify the order) it will run
[22:02:13] <alex_joni> got it?
[22:03:16] <SWPadnos> OK - so you would link your freqgen module(s) first, then the parport update() function
[22:03:16] <alex_joni> right
[22:03:16] <SWPadnos> and it only happens once
[22:03:17] <alex_joni> once every cycle
[22:03:17] <SWPadnos> yep
[22:03:31] <alex_joni> preferably you link the code that outputs some values for freqgen first
[22:03:35] <alex_joni> say.. motmod ;)
[22:03:49] <SWPadnos> well - that *may* be more useful
[22:03:59] <alex_joni> heh
[22:04:09] <alex_joni> or you can feed it with a sine, or whatever
[22:04:32] <SWPadnos> I suspect the slowness issue is from the fact that there is a list of linked functions, and that they get called in sequence
[22:04:52] <alex_joni> well..I was running emc2 before
[22:05:01] <alex_joni> so I don't think that changed
[22:05:21] <SWPadnos> OK - so this is slower than the same system running "old" emc2?
[22:05:43] <daryl> * daryl burns bdi-4.20
[22:05:43] <alex_joni> on old 2.4 kernel
[22:05:45] <alex_joni> yes
[22:05:47] <SWPadnos> O
[22:05:48] <SWPadnos> OK
[22:05:56] <alex_joni> daryl: make it go up in flames
[22:06:03] <daryl> heh heh...
[22:06:05] <alex_joni> burn the EVIL
[22:06:15] <daryl> I haven't been able to get my manual build to work properly.
[22:06:15] <alex_joni> the fire shall purify it
[22:06:17] <SWPadnos> Well - I do need to run - I think my wife is about to ask me if I've proofread her papers yet :)
[22:06:29] <alex_joni> what papers?
[22:06:37] <SWPadnos> daryl: what distro is your manual build based on?
[22:06:40] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep torches the package of Oreo's on sitting on the couch.
[22:06:47] <daryl> fc3
[22:06:50] <SWPadnos> term papers for one of her graduate classes
[22:06:58] <alex_joni> * alex_joni just got an ubunto today
[22:07:04] <SWPadnos> see ya later
[22:07:05] <alex_joni> ubuntu even
[22:07:09] <alex_joni> bye SWP
[22:07:09] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[22:07:11] <daryl> Bizarre problems. (At least I think they're bizarre)
[22:07:17] <alex_joni> do share
[22:07:27] <daryl> We were talking yesterday, I think... recently anyway.
[22:07:34] <daryl> Twitching, even with generic.ini
[22:07:52] <Phydbleep> daryl: I heard that the RT stuff for FC was borked and would not work with emc.
[22:08:21] <Phydbleep> L8ters SWP. :)
[22:08:25] <daryl> Not sure what rt stuff there really is for fc... I installed a fresh kernel patched with the latest stable rtai stuff I could find.
[22:08:49] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: ubuntu?
[22:09:02] <daryl> But I wouldn't be surprised if something else about the way fc3 is setup is borking it.
[22:09:07] <daryl> * daryl likes the word bork.
[22:09:15] <daryl> Bork bork bork.
[22:10:21] <Phydbleep> Watch where you wave that chefs hat.. Big hats and capes are no-no's in places with spinning machinery. :)
[22:10:48] <daryl> alex - If I run an untouched emc2 (bdi-4 branch) ./generic.run with nothing attached to the computer, and don't even do any jobs (just bring it out of stop), it gives following errors.
[22:11:18] <daryl> jobs=jogs
[22:13:31] <daryl> * daryl boots bdi-4.20
[22:14:42] <alex_joni> strange
[22:15:02] <alex_joni> bdi-4.20 should work out of the box, did work here
[22:15:15] <alex_joni> daryl: still got that fc3?
[22:15:26] <alex_joni> try fiddling with the PERIOD parameter
[22:15:52] <SWP_Away> one quick thing - I don't think there's a working set of Adeos patches for 2.6.8 - you should go to 2.6.9, and get the appropriate Adeos patch for that
[22:15:54] <alex_joni> I just did that for emc2 (to stop it from freezing), and setting it too low caused ferrors
[22:16:05] <daryl> alex - what are you talking about? I haven't tried bdi-4.20 yet... I just popped i the CD.
[22:16:24] <alex_joni> daryl: talking about fc3
[22:16:41] <alex_joni> if you still have that setup (before installing BDI-4.20)
[22:16:45] <alex_joni> try messing with PERIOD
[22:16:54] <daryl> alex - good thought. I'll fiddle with period before overwritting my fc3 install with bdi.
[22:16:58] <alex_joni> it _might_ get you out of trouble
[22:17:14] <alex_joni> it should only take a few minutes
[22:17:28] <daryl> swp - where are you getting your rtai from? I went with the latest I could find from rtai.org under "stable". And the lateast patch in the latest stable release was for
[22:17:44] <SWP_Away> there's RTAI, and then there's Adeos - you need both
[22:18:51] <daryl> Umm.. ok. Any chance you could send me a link where to get both?
[22:18:58] <SWP_Away> I'm looking for it
[22:19:12] <SWP_Away> did you follow the wiki page on installation on other distros?
[22:19:39] <daryl> I downloaded rtai-3.1.tar.bz2. In it is a patch for which appends -adeos. Is that not right?
[22:20:10] <daryl> No.. I tried to find installation instructions and failed. I would love to see some kind of instructions in installation.
[22:20:13] <SWP_Away> I thought they came from different places, but I could be wrong - I installed on a Gentoo machine without difficulty
[22:20:32] <SWP_Away> OK - yes, they are from the same place
[22:20:53] <alex_joni> http://cvs.gna.org/viewcvs/rtai/magma/base/arch/i386/patches/
[22:21:30] <alex_joni> seems has been deleted
[22:22:14] <daryl> Yesterday I tried going with that patch and rtai from cvs, but the rtai install failed.
[22:22:33] <alex_joni> http://cvs.gna.org/viewcvs/rtai/vulcano/base/arch/i386/patches/README?rev=1.3&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
[22:22:34] <daryl> It build an rtai_hal.ko (or whatever) which depended on itself, so depmod wouldn't run.
[22:23:47] <daryl> Hmm.. maybe I'll take a swing at it one more time.
[22:23:52] <alex_joni> do you guys have any history with imap servers?
[22:24:07] <daryl> Does it makes sense to you to go with the latest kernel/patch combo and use the latest rtai from stable (i.e. 3.1)?
[22:24:16] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: Setting up or connecting to?
[22:24:21] <daryl> re:imap no
[22:24:36] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: I have a pretty reliable (as in old) server
[22:24:39] <alex_joni> 2.2.13 ;)
[22:24:56] <alex_joni> runs some imap (don't really know what flavour)
[22:25:03] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: And then you went and broke it? <JK> :)
[22:25:14] <alex_joni> but clients complain that it takes ages to access it
[22:25:35] <alex_joni> don't know what makes it so slow,
[22:25:45] <alex_joni> I don't have that many clients (<15)
[22:25:59] <Phydbleep> imap.. Imap is what makes it slow.
[22:26:15] <alex_joni> well. this is a local server
[22:26:22] <SWP_Away> I'd get the specific Adeos patch from here: http://home.gna.org/adeos/
[22:26:27] <alex_joni> and having to wait 30 seconds to connect is just plain bull
[22:26:41] <SWP_Away> then get RTAI 3.1, and install that (but without the Adeos patch included in it)
[22:27:14] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: I'd try to install a new one, but I'm afraid newer ones don't support the ancient system I have
[22:27:19] <alex_joni> libc & such
[22:27:42] <SWP_Away> You should probably stop at 2.6.10, considering that the later one is called adeos-linux-2.6.11-i386-r9-dont-use.patch
[22:28:13] <alex_joni> lol
[22:29:08] <alex_joni> daryl: if you wanna live at the edge, try http://download.gna.org/adeos/patches/v2.6/i386/candidates/
[22:29:37] <daryl> I'd prefer to go with what is most likely to work.
[22:29:39] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: Check '/etc/imapd,conf'
[22:29:58] <alex_joni> anything particular?
[22:30:59] <Phydbleep> timeouts, security options.. Sound's like the clients are having to timeout and fallback to an older protocol.
[22:31:11] <SWP_Away> aremove that if you find it
[22:32:03] <Phydbleep> Set it to '-1' and it will log you in before you can hit the button. <jk> :)
[22:32:26] <alex_joni> no /etc/imap(d).conf
[22:32:30] <daryl> The default PERIOD is 0.000024. IT's a fast machine (Athlon XP, ~2GHz), any recommendations?
[22:32:40] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: Distro?
[22:32:49] <alex_joni> SuSE 6.3
[22:32:52] <alex_joni> ;)
[22:33:19] <Phydbleep> Wow.. Hasn't that grown moss yet?
[22:33:26] <alex_joni> a bit ;)
[22:33:37] <alex_joni> but.. like I said.. it's pretty stable
[22:33:40] <SWP_Away> set it to .000050, and see if it's more responsive (your max feedrate will be lower)
[22:33:46] <alex_joni> didn't touch it in a few years
[22:33:54] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: 'find / -name "*imap*"'
[22:33:59] <alex_joni> daryl: that's default for bdi4 branch?
[22:34:07] <daryl> yes
[22:34:35] <alex_joni> hummm
[22:35:11] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: That will take a while on a slow box.
[22:35:47] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: And sound like a washing machine. :)
[22:36:04] <alex_joni> good thing it's a few km away
[22:36:13] <alex_joni> but it has to search through a few HD's ;)
[22:36:28] <daryl> Hmm.. It hung. But possibly not because of that last period adjustment.
[22:36:45] <alex_joni> likely that was the cause
[22:36:58] <daryl> But I made it bigger than it was before.
[22:37:22] <alex_joni> did you use 50 ?
[22:37:28] <daryl> I have been having lots of trouble with hanging.
[22:37:30] <daryl> .000050
[22:37:34] <alex_joni> try 60
[22:37:51] <Phydbleep> That reminds me.. I need to wire a set of carriage limit switches into the power circuits.
[22:38:22] <alex_joni> OMFG
[22:38:41] <alex_joni> " UNIX Configuration Notes
[22:38:41] <alex_joni> The IMAP and POP3 servers are plug-and-play on standard UNIX
[22:38:41] <alex_joni> systems. There is no special configuration needed. Please ignore all
[22:38:41] <alex_joni> rumors to the effect that you need to create an IMAP configuration
[22:38:41] <alex_joni> file.
[22:38:43] <alex_joni> "
[22:39:07] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: You know what.. did you check the size of the mail spools?
[22:39:19] <alex_joni> I did.. and they do tend to grow a bit
[22:39:25] <alex_joni> about 50-100MB each
[22:39:48] <Phydbleep> Try it as a user with a clean mailbox.
[22:41:56] <alex_joni> now this sounds like a warning:
[22:41:56] <alex_joni> * In other words, keep your cotton-pickin' hands off my defaults. *
[22:41:56] <alex_joni> * If it crashes and erases your mail, I don't want to hear about it. *
[22:41:56] <alex_joni> * Consider 'em ``mandatory defaults''. Got a nice ring, eh? :-) If *
[22:41:56] <alex_joni> * you must tinker with defaults, play with the .pinerc and pine.conf *
[22:41:57] <alex_joni> * files in Pine. It's got options galore, all supported for you to *
[22:41:59] <alex_joni> * have fun. They're also documented; so well documented, it takes *
[22:42:01] <alex_joni> * two strong men to carry around all the documentation. ;-) ;-) *
[22:42:18] <alex_joni> * One last warning: don't believe anything that you read in this *
[22:42:18] <alex_joni> * document. Every effort has been made to ensure that this document *
[22:42:18] <alex_joni> * is incomplete and inaccurate, and I take no responsibility for any *
[22:42:18] <alex_joni> * glimmers of correct information that may, by some fluke, be here. *
[22:42:18] <alex_joni> * *
[22:42:19] <alex_joni> **********************************************************************
[22:42:25] <Phydbleep> ROFL!
[22:42:51] <Phydbleep> My kind of documentation . :)
[22:43:04] <alex_joni> The very first line of the file MUST be the exact string "I accept the
[22:43:04] <alex_joni> risk for IMAP toolkit 4.1." This ensures that you have checked the
[22:43:04] <alex_joni> file for correctness against this version of the IMAP toolkit. This
[22:43:13] <alex_joni> ROFLMAO
[22:43:32] <Phydbleep> Actually.. clean them all out if you can.. imap slows down if there is too much to sort through... 15 users x 75M (avg) = >1gb.
[22:43:45] <alex_joni> IF I can
[22:44:09] <Phydbleep> Set up pop3d?
[22:44:26] <alex_joni> hmm.. I have roaming profiles set up on samba ;)
[22:44:32] <alex_joni> think I'll change the machien
[22:44:34] <alex_joni> machine
[22:44:40] <alex_joni> use a new one as a mail server
[22:44:54] <alex_joni> maybe evenset up a BDC
[22:44:57] <Phydbleep> Into a programmable toaster oven?
[22:45:08] <alex_joni> yeah..
[22:45:12] <alex_joni> linux runs on those
[22:45:13] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep uses that threat on obsolete hardware all the time. :)
[22:45:30] <alex_joni> you know what my router is?
[22:45:37] <Phydbleep> P-90?
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> proxy:~ # cat /proc/cpuinfo
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> processor : 0
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> vendor_id : GenuineIntel
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> cpu family : 5
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> model : 2
[22:46:05] <alex_joni> model name : Pentium 75 - 200
[22:46:07] <alex_joni> stepping : 12
[22:46:15] <alex_joni> cpu MHz : 132.956
[22:46:16] <alex_joni> fdiv_bug : no
[22:46:16] <alex_joni> hlt_bug : no
[22:46:16] <alex_joni> f00f_bug : yes
[22:46:19] <alex_joni> ;)
[22:46:25] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is running an original Slot-A Athlon 900 for a router/firewall.
[22:46:38] <alex_joni> nice
[22:46:41] <Phydbleep> Makes a nice heater too. :)
[22:46:49] <alex_joni> I had an Slot-A 550 Athlon
[22:46:54] <alex_joni> with a K7M
[22:46:56] <SWP_Away> probably faster than my dual PPro-overdrive 333 system
[22:47:05] <alex_joni> first board on Athlon
[22:47:20] <alex_joni> the one with AMD's Irongate (or what was it called)
[22:47:45] <alex_joni> proxy:~ # cat /proc/meminfo
[22:47:45] <alex_joni> total: used: free: shared: buffers: cached:
[22:47:45] <alex_joni> Mem: 46563328 39022592 7540736 0 5914624 23924736
[22:52:28] <alex_joni> I wonder if this is an old libc
[22:52:28] <alex_joni> libc-2.1.2-24
[22:54:04] <alex_joni> heh.. and gcc
[22:54:07] <alex_joni> LOL
[22:55:47] <daryl> I think the hanging may have been due to a mismatch of builds.
[22:56:06] <daryl> I rebuild emc and it's not hanging now.
[22:56:11] <alex_joni> nice
[22:56:15] <alex_joni> ferror?
[22:56:49] <daryl> I tried opening that way up, along with deadband.
[22:56:52] <daryl> It didn't help before.
[22:57:04] <alex_joni> no .. I meant does it still ferror?
[22:57:07] <daryl> I'm running with period=0.000090 at the moment, and I haven't seen a twitch yet.
[22:57:12] <daryl> oh..
[22:57:12] <daryl> no
[22:57:26] <daryl> I'm going to try reducing period until I see problems.
[22:57:36] <alex_joni> yup..
[22:57:39] <alex_joni> try 50 ?
[22:57:46] <alex_joni> and tell me what happens :D
[22:58:08] <daryl> will i a min.. 50 is what I had on my old pentium-150, so I figured the default of 24 would be ok on this machine. Maybe I was wrong. :(
[22:58:16] <daryl> in a min even
[22:59:05] <daryl> Wow.. it's acting like a mill (still at 90). Good job alex!
[22:59:30] <alex_joni> heh.. not my job ;)
[22:59:43] <alex_joni> I just pointed smthg out.. glad it turned out the right thing
[23:00:13] <daryl> ok.. trying 50 now.
[23:01:09] <daryl> Seems ok.
[23:01:41] <alex_joni> after all it might have been only that recompile :-?
[23:02:02] <daryl> Maybe.. except that I've recompiled it many many many times in the last few days and it's never worked.
[23:02:19] <daryl> Though this time I'm running with much less turned on in the kernel.
[23:02:31] <alex_joni> heh..
[23:02:38] <alex_joni> apm & acpi usually call for trouble
[23:02:47] <alex_joni> it's best to have that switched off
[23:02:55] <daryl> Really? Good to know. I just turned those off this last build.
[23:03:10] <alex_joni> paul_c says so ;)
[23:03:20] <alex_joni> I built only a few kernels myself
[23:03:28] <alex_joni> about 10-20 (with rtai)
[23:03:32] <daryl> Back to 24 this time.
[23:03:45] <alex_joni> ok
[23:03:48] <daryl> I've built kernels probably over 1000 times... had to do it for a living for a while.
[23:03:49] <Phydbleep> paul_c is the guru.. All Hail paul_c. :)
[23:03:57] <alex_joni> lol
[23:04:33] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is proud to have done the 2.6 stuff alone ;)
[23:04:49] <daryl> Locked up hard.
[23:05:03] <alex_joni> darn ;)
[23:05:04] <daryl> But that could be other issues... I've been having trouble running it more than a few times.
[23:05:07] <alex_joni> well.. then
[23:05:10] <alex_joni> try 30-40
[23:05:11] <alex_joni> :D
[23:05:15] <daryl> Going to reboot and try it at 24 one more time to be sure.
[23:05:27] <daryl> I'm worried there are still other problems.
[23:05:55] <daryl> Was it you who had a 1.4Ghz machine?
[23:06:04] <Phydbleep> 90 worked and 50 didnt? Try 72-75? :)
[23:06:12] <daryl> 50 did.
[23:06:14] <daryl> 24 didn't
[23:06:32] <daryl> But I want to be sure it was the 24 before I try higher values. So waiting for a fresh boot.
[23:06:33] <alex_joni> yup
[23:06:39] <daryl> What's your period set to?
[23:07:30] <alex_joni> emc2?
[23:07:34] <alex_joni> 60 right now
[23:07:44] <alex_joni> and the default on bdi
[23:07:49] <alex_joni> 24 I guess
[23:07:52] <daryl> 24 locked it solid again. I'd say that's fairly conclusive.
[23:08:12] <alex_joni> yup
[23:08:18] <daryl> Heh... re building kernels: The 1000's of builds were to get it to run on custom ARM hardware. ;)
[23:08:30] <SWP_Away> Yopy lives!
[23:08:49] <alex_joni> yopy?
[23:08:52] <daryl> ?
[23:08:55] <alex_joni> who's yopy?
[23:09:06] <Phydbleep> ARM linux.
[23:09:07] <SWP_Away> it's a Linux PDA that I think runs on an ARM processor
[23:09:15] <daryl> Heh... I knew it sounded familiar.
[23:09:36] <SWP_Away> http://www.gicom.de/yopy/
[23:09:52] <daryl> * daryl has had enough arm linux for one lifetime.
[23:10:06] <alex_joni> daryl: how come?
[23:10:14] <SWP_Away> heh - I'm sure it's better with interrupt latency than an x86 though
[23:10:48] <daryl> Did it for several years 8 hours a day...
[23:11:02] <Phydbleep> daryl: What was the app?
[23:11:23] <daryl> An access point kind of thing... probably shouldn't go into details.
[23:11:50] <Phydbleep> Ah.. ATM/E-vote type crap. :)
[23:11:56] <alex_joni> daryl: that's highly interesting to me ;)
[23:11:58] <SWP_Away> it shouldn't matter, since the GPL would forcethe company to publish their kernel ... :)
[23:12:07] <alex_joni> 802.11 ?
[23:12:23] <daryl> Heh heh... bluetooth.
[23:12:35] <daryl> * daryl has also had enough bluetooth for one lifetime.
[23:12:46] <SWP_Away> so have I, and I've never used it :)
[23:12:55] <alex_joni> * alex_joni joins the club
[23:12:56] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... And here's one for all the people in North America to worry about....
[23:13:04] <SWP_Away> Shrub?
[23:13:09] <SWP_Away> I mean - Bush?
[23:13:29] <Phydbleep> Next time you go to the bank, Look at the drive-thru ATM...
[23:13:36] <SWP_Away> Gotta love Braille
[23:13:56] <Phydbleep> Notice that the unit is carefully labeled in English and Braille...
[23:14:04] <daryl> Hmm... now 50 is locking it hard.
[23:14:16] <daryl> I wonder if something is getting corrupted.
[23:14:29] <SWP_Away> is this the third or fourth run this boot?
[23:14:34] <daryl> first
[23:14:46] <SWP_Away> then I'd say it isn't the PERIOD
[23:14:55] <Phydbleep> I'm all for equal opportunities for the handicapped, but isn't that just a little overboard?
[23:14:59] <daryl> I'll crank it up again next boot and see what happens.
[23:15:11] <SWP_Away> are yoiu sure that the correct modules are being loaded?
[23:15:29] <daryl> As in, the ones built for this kernel vs a different kernel?
[23:15:39] <SWP_Away> yes
[23:15:56] <daryl> Hmm.. I suppose not. Suggestions on how to tell?
[23:16:15] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders how often Ray Charles drives himself to the bank..
[23:16:21] <alex_joni> daryl: remove everything but one kernel
[23:16:22] <SWP_Away> you cn look for the realtime modules - I can't remember the name of the primary one right now
[23:16:30] <daryl> A few minutes ago I removed the emc modules from the appropriate /lib/modules dir and re-installed them.
[23:16:41] <SWP_Away> try the same with the RTAI modules
[23:16:55] <SWP_Away> but make sure you don't have any other copies around as well
[23:17:04] <alex_joni> SWP: daryl reported RTAI tests work
[23:17:08] <SWP_Away> then re-run the make modules_install
[23:17:08] <daryl> I think I did... after the cranked up run I'll check the modules.
[23:17:34] <alex_joni> anyways... I'm going to sleep soon
[23:17:53] <alex_joni> [02:17] <alex_joni> anyways... I'm going to sleep soon
[23:18:01] <daryl> Thanks again for your help alex. I think we're making progress now.
[23:18:14] <alex_joni> daryl: don't mention it
[23:18:21] <Phydbleep> G'nite alex_joni
[23:18:22] <alex_joni> you might want to try emc2 too ;)
[23:18:24] <Phydbleep> :)
[23:18:30] <alex_joni> can't lock it harder than now :D
[23:18:38] <daryl> heh heh.
[23:18:42] <alex_joni> night Phydbleep
[23:19:04] <alex_joni> bye SWP
[23:19:13] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... I've still got 12 hours to go. :)
[23:19:27] <daryl> This is strange.
[23:19:48] <daryl> Running at 90... not locking, but jogging doesn't do anything.
[23:20:16] <daryl> It did before.
[23:20:38] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep hates inconsistant results from hardware testing.
[23:20:49] <daryl> no kidding
[23:21:30] <Phydbleep> jmkasunich: It's a-lathe! Muwahahaha.. :)
[23:21:39] <jmkasunich> cool
[23:22:41] <Phydbleep> Yeah, All that's left to do now is the wiring and mounting for the electrics/electronics.
[23:22:57] <jmkasunich> I thought you were working on an old manual lathe?
[23:23:11] <Phydbleep> 1947 Logan. :)
[23:23:21] <jmkasunich> so what's with the electronics?
[23:23:58] <Phydbleep> emc/dro/speed control/REAL USER PANEL..
[23:24:35] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wants a big, Red, shiny, candy like button for STOP.
[23:25:39] <Phydbleep> Placed about where someones forehead would slam into it if they get their tie caught in the chuck. :)
[23:25:57] <jmkasunich> ties?
[23:26:12] <jmkasunich> folks wearing ties near machines deserve what they get ;-)
[23:26:16] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich hates ties
[23:26:55] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep knows some real disreputable characters.. Some of them wear ties and (*gasp*) suits!
[23:27:00] <les> I wore em for 25 years...no more
[23:27:05] <jmkasunich> ewwwww
[23:27:45] <les> wear "l m watts furniture" t shirts now hahah
[23:28:19] <daryl> Something did get corrupt. Rebuilt emc and now the motors move.
[23:29:01] <daryl> I thought ext3 was better than that.
[23:29:06] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep usually wears just enough to keep from losing favored appendages to hot metal when cutting/grinding or enough for UV screening when welding.
[23:29:52] <les> yeah I have a smock to wear in the shop
[23:30:15] <les> ever had your clothes catch on fire while welding? I have.
[23:30:59] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has had his chest hair go *WOOF* from a stray spark..
[23:31:06] <les> oooh
[23:31:25] <daryl> Maching naked?
[23:31:31] <daryl> machining even
[23:32:05] <Phydbleep> welding.. Spark bounced into the helmet and down the covveralls.
[23:33:56] <Phydbleep> Machining I usually just go for sandals and pants in this weather. Too hot even with the air on in the shop to wear more.
[23:34:52] <les> I have had some inquries from Miller to design some value added for their welding helmets
[23:35:13] <les> I don't know what I could do though ...they are so inexpensive now
[23:35:20] <Phydbleep> Tailfins and Flames? <jk> :)
[23:35:41] <les> well they already have those halloween mask looking ones
[23:36:03] <Phydbleep> Caddilac tailfins? :)
[23:36:08] <les> hmmm
[23:36:25] <les> a propellor on top?
[23:36:37] <SWP_Away> Darth Vader helmet
[23:36:45] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep was thinking a UFO landing pad, but what the hey. :)
[23:36:53] <les> I think some one makes one!
[23:37:07] <Phydbleep> Vader or UFO?
[23:37:12] <les> vader
[23:37:20] <SWP_Away> there's a Darth Vader kit for Mr. Potato Head ("Darth Tater")
[23:37:21] <les> auto darkening helmet
[23:37:22] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has seen the Alien helmets.
[23:37:50] <les> I have a mr potatohead right here on my computer dest
[23:37:59] <les> desk
[23:38:02] <SWP_Away> well - get Darth Tater - it's a limited edition
[23:38:11] <Phydbleep> Darth Tater version?
[23:38:11] <les> hahaha
[23:38:29] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep got one for the kid. She loves it.
[23:39:15] <les> right now I have the potatohead....a crookes radiometer, and some fresh azaleas on my desk
[23:39:46] <les> had a dippy bird too but my mom was visiting and accidently broke it
[23:40:05] <Phydbleep> Had a Star Wars geek almost scream when I opened the box and handed it to the kid. "DON'T DO THAT! That's a collectors item.." No, That's a kids toy and the kid is happy. :)
[23:40:17] <les> the methylene chloride kinda burned her
[23:40:25] <les> I must order more
[23:40:44] <jmkasunich> more methylene chloride?
[23:41:23] <les> yeah...well more dippy birds!
[23:41:51] <jmkasunich> plural? you want a whole flock, eh?
[23:42:24] <les> I ought to order a gross....they are going to be considered too hazardous soon I think
[23:42:31] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders if les is just flocking around.
[23:42:34] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich imagines hundreds of dippy birds perched on every horizontal surface in a room, all dipping away
[23:42:35] <les> bet they will be taken off the market
[23:42:39] <daryl> Is the methylene chloride in them?
[23:43:05] <les> no I am not flocking...I am a dippy bird freak
[23:43:18] <les> google it...you will be surprised
[23:43:31] <les> yes mc is in them
[23:43:47] <les> unusually low heat of vaporization
[23:44:07] <les> mercury works good too
[23:44:54] <daryl> How dangerous is methylene chloride?
[23:45:01] <daryl> * daryl looks over at the bottle of it on his bench.
[23:45:09] <Phydbleep> Dont get in on,in or up you?
[23:45:24] <Phydbleep> s/in on/it on
[23:45:40] <les> http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/DippyBird/DrinkingBird1.html
[23:47:01] <daryl> * daryl generally avoids gettings things up him.
[23:47:01] <les> mc is paint stripper
[23:47:18] <daryl> It works great for welding acrylic.
[23:47:24] <les> burning sensation on skin contact
[23:47:25] <Phydbleep> Good practice. :)
[23:47:41] <les> metabolizes to CO if inhaled
[23:47:47] <Phydbleep> daryl: Does it attack laser toner?
[23:48:06] <les> MC attacks just about everything heh
[23:48:15] <daryl> Don't know... and the bottle's empty, so I can't try it.
[23:48:28] <daryl> Welds polycarbonate too.
[23:48:36] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep was trying to bond polyester transparency film to an acrylic disk.
[23:48:41] <les> ace extra strength paint stripper.
[23:48:52] <daryl> Don't know about polyester.
[23:48:56] <Phydbleep> les: Ace hardware?
[23:49:02] <les> yeah.
[23:49:18] <les> No actually mc will leave PET alone
[23:49:24] <Phydbleep> Cool.. I'll have to drive 20 miles to get to one, but oh well. :)
[23:50:25] <les> the ace stuff also has some wax and toluene and a thixotrope in it
[23:50:29] <Phydbleep> les: mc was listed as the solvent for the polyfilm.. I figured 1/16" lexan for a backer.
[23:50:36] <les> the more mc the better the stripper
[23:50:53] <les> mc is heavy...so the heaviest container is the best
[23:51:10] <les> per size of course
[23:52:13] <les> I don't think it will touch PETR but it should gobble up vinyls and prob polycarbonate
[23:52:22] <les> PET
[23:52:58] <les> oh that reminds me
[23:53:38] <les> got an email about questions for an optically dispersing thermally stable polymer
[23:54:01] <les> I'm thinking ultem with titanium dioxide fill
[23:54:21] <Phydbleep> <5% fill?
[23:54:24] <les> I forgot to call them
[23:54:41] <daryl> Heh... if I ever have materials questions I'll have to wander in here.
[23:54:57] <les> I will propose writing a short paper
[23:55:25] <les> consultant fodder.
[23:55:37] <Phydbleep> I will propose ordering a pizza and chasing a redhead. :)
[23:55:58] <les> good proposal...bnut will you get $100/hr?
[23:56:07] <les> heh
[23:56:07] <Phydbleep> les Now, Which one sounds more fun?
[23:56:19] <les> pizza and redhead.
[23:56:29] <Phydbleep> BINGO! :)
[23:56:43] <les> I could use a bit of both...I'm here to tell you.
[23:57:10] <Phydbleep> Don't lie.. You could use a LOT of both. :)
[23:57:15] <les> haha
[23:57:34] <jmkasunich> I got the redhead, but I ain't sharing
[23:57:44] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has 2...
[23:57:47] <les> I am too far out in the woods.
[23:57:54] <Phydbleep> I'm lucky they share. :)
[23:58:04] <SWP_Away> you tend to lose $100/hour with the redhead
[23:58:11] <les> I think I have forgotten what girls are for.
[23:58:27] <les> something about yelling and getting mad?
[23:58:27] <Phydbleep> SWP_Away: Yeah, But you dont care. :)
[23:58:46] <SWP_Away> depends on whether or not your wife catches you ;)
[23:58:58] <jmkasunich> my wife is the redhead ;-)
[23:59:18] <Phydbleep> Catches hell.. She critiques and waves scorecards.
[23:59:32] <SWP_Away> heh
[23:59:40] <Phydbleep> My wife that is. :)