#emc | Logs for 2005-04-14

[05:50:39] <anonimasu> hello
[05:51:27] <alex_joni> hey an0n
[05:51:32] <anonimasu> I am having trouble..
[05:51:38] <anonimasu> the hd of a server I administer if full :/
[05:51:51] <anonimasu> is..
[05:51:52] <alex_joni> bummer
[05:52:12] <anonimasu> yeah some bunch of retards installed it.
[05:52:28] <anonimasu> /var/spool is 2gb..
[05:54:38] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[06:09:06] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Is it a LVM volume?
[06:11:01] <anonimasu> nope
[06:11:15] <anonimasu> I solved it.. I removed some users mail.
[06:11:23] <alex_joni> LOTUS :))
[06:12:27] <anonimasu> yep
[06:12:33] <alex_joni> heh
[06:22:53] <alex_joni> do you guys know any good CAD for houses?
[06:22:57] <alex_joni> like arhicad?
[06:26:59] <anonimasu> solidworks?
[06:27:00] <anonimasu> ^_^
[06:27:15] <alex_joni> heh
[06:28:52] <alex_joni> I need some click and drool stuff
[06:29:43] <Phydbleep> Open-FX.
[06:32:20] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[06:39:25] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[06:39:29] <anonimasu> nice when users put's mp3's online.
[06:39:37] <alex_joni> an0n: on a c-function
[06:39:47] <anonimasu> c-function?
[06:39:48] <alex_joni> how can you specify multiple parameters?
[06:39:52] <alex_joni> plain C
[06:40:00] <alex_joni> say I want a function to take 3 params
[06:40:02] <alex_joni> but sometimes
[06:40:06] <alex_joni> 4 or more params
[06:40:19] <alex_joni> like it's done for main(argc, argv[])
[06:40:30] <alex_joni> but explicitely
[06:40:40] <alex_joni> I know that in c++ it's easy
[06:41:45] <anonimasu> overlapping functions..
[06:43:35] <anonimasu> cant remember right now
[07:09:21] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[07:24:49] <A-L-P-H-A> boo
[07:38:42] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[07:38:44] <anonimasu> stress
[07:38:48] <anonimasu> �#!"""""""""
[07:39:10] <A-L-P-H-A> find a nice girl... and get a back rub. :)
[07:39:30] <A-L-P-H-A> that's one think I seriously miss from having a GF.
[07:39:41] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: I dont have time for that :/
[07:43:00] <alex_joni> heh
[08:29:19] <anonimasu> :(
[08:30:26] <alex_joni> hey paul
[08:30:47] <paul_c> Morning, morning...
[08:31:50] <alex_joni> heh.. pretty much
[08:32:06] <anonimasu> hm, I wonde if I could run uclinux on my palm..
[08:32:12] <anonimasu> to do some graphing
[08:39:59] <anonimasu> but well..
[08:40:06] <anonimasu> I think netbsd would boot on the palm..
[08:40:07] <anonimasu> :D
[08:40:12] <anonimasu> damn os runs on toasters.
[09:00:50] <alex_joni> paul_c: how's the CL going?
[09:03:18] <paul_c> not looked at it for a few days..
[09:03:38] <Phydbleep> CL?
[09:05:21] <anonimasu> classicladder
[09:05:27] <anonimasu> a software PLC implementation for emc :)
[09:06:21] <paul_c> Have a ideas I need to discuss next week before doing much more with CL
[09:06:34] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[09:07:56] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is stuck and in need of an optical interrupter...
[09:08:30] <Phydbleep> I tried the tape + Sharpie trick and it wasn't enough..
[09:09:13] <anonimasu> sharpie?
[09:09:56] <Jymmm> sharpie == pen/marker
[09:10:03] <Phydbleep> Take a piece of tape, wrap it around the motor shaft, draw the sectors for the encoder in by hand with a black marker.
[09:11:08] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep got to see a 3000 rpm motor spin up to ~ 4500 rmp when the feedback went.
[09:11:21] <anonimasu> hm, howcome it went away?
[09:11:57] <anonimasu> too low samplerate?
[09:11:58] <Phydbleep> I took the flywheel with the old silver mylar encoder label off and =set it on the bench. :)
[09:12:48] <Phydbleep> Naw, The sectors were about the same size, I thhink it's the flourecent lights in the shop.
[09:13:01] <anonimasu> strane
[09:13:03] <anonimasu> strange
[09:13:42] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... I just need to take a 5/8" bore pulley and drill a bunch of holes in it. :)
[09:14:47] <Phydbleep> Either that or peel the old label off and stick it on a smaller pulley.
[09:15:06] <anonimasu> :)
[09:15:30] <Jymmm> why not get laser foil and print a new one?
[09:16:04] <Phydbleep> My hobby/research budget is negative numbers.
[09:16:24] <Jymmm> $5 ?
[09:16:39] <anonimasu> and your into CNC machines ^_^
[09:16:47] <anonimasu> bad combo
[09:17:49] <paul_c> just need to book a taxi for next week, and I'm all set to go..
[09:17:54] <anonimasu> nice
[09:17:58] <Phydbleep> The I bought the lathe for $100, I have scrounged the motor, PC, monitor, panel parts, new triacs for the motor controller and a whole pile of other crap..
[09:18:45] <Phydbleep> s/The I/I
[09:20:05] <paul_c> what sort of late ?
[09:20:09] <paul_c> what sort of lathe ?
[09:20:46] <Phydbleep> I have enough rectangular steel tubing (from tractor shipping crates) to build a whole new work table and shelves.
[09:20:58] <Phydbleep> SoouthBend 11x60
[09:21:58] <paul_c> ah... The 1937 jobbie
[09:22:48] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. Yeah, The motor is a Pacific Scientific 1HP, 3000 RPM, 100V PMDC unit from a treadmill.
[09:23:11] <anonimasu> :)
[09:24:55] <Phydbleep> Anyone here got a small cnc router? Like circuit board size?
[09:25:51] <Jymmm> Damn... a cnc router only .010" tall
[09:26:05] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep sends a wheelie-bin chasing Jymmm.
[09:26:18] <Jymmm> Hey, you said it, not me =)
[09:26:41] <Phydbleep> I was thinking circuit board PRODUCTION size.
[09:27:00] <Jymmm> Ah.....
[09:27:07] <Jymmm> * Jymmm snickers *
[09:27:18] <Phydbleep> I still wonder what the trash truck driver is going to do when the bin dodges the arm...
[09:27:37] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is a sadistic s.o.b...
[09:28:09] <anonimasu> arm?
[09:28:57] <Phydbleep> The use a touchless (for the operator) system here.. Big mech arm grabs the can and shakes it over the back of the truck..
[09:30:25] <anonimasu> ah
[09:30:36] <Phydbleep> The bins have wheels.. Wheels are to move things.. Bin + batteries + motors + radio control == schizoid truck driver. :)
[09:30:47] <anonimasu> he'll probably come to beat you ;)
[09:31:33] <Phydbleep> I'll do it with a spare bin and drop it down the street at the apartments. :)
[09:32:52] <Phydbleep> My only worry is that he catches it and I lose the drive pack. :)
[09:32:53] <anonimasu> lol
[09:34:02] <Jymmm> and bolts were thus invented
[09:34:07] <anonimasu> hm my memory object works
[09:34:58] <anonimasu> neat
[09:37:25] <Jymmm> ?
[09:37:35] <anonimasu> I am coding somthing horrid right now :
[09:37:36] <anonimasu> :)
[09:37:44] <anonimasu> a object to handle meory at a plc..
[09:37:49] <anonimasu> err multiple user settings
[09:39:26] <anonimasu> it's messy
[09:40:46] <Phydbleep> Now back to my question.. Has anyone here got a small cnc router?
[09:41:10] <Phydbleep> router or mill actually.
[09:41:20] <anonimasu> yes
[09:41:23] <anonimasu> I have a mill
[09:41:28] <paul_c> yup - Two
[09:41:54] <anonimasu> :)
[09:41:55] <paul_c> Bridgeport Interact II & a Sherline
[09:42:58] <Phydbleep> Who wants to make a motor controller board? I'll supply the G10 stock and the gerber files.
[09:43:31] <anonimasu> the shipping would kill your budget..
[09:43:36] <anonimasu> :/
[09:43:46] <paul_c> you are located ?
[09:43:52] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is sick of trying to decypher a 8kx8 ROM full of 8031 code.
[09:43:56] <anonimasu> north sweden
[09:44:11] <Phydbleep> Blast! Foiled again...
[09:44:30] <paul_c> and Phydbleep is in ?
[09:44:38] <Phydbleep> New Mexico..
[09:45:05] <Phydbleep> Not to be confused with or associated with West Texas. :)
[09:45:09] <anonimasu> if you look at www.linuxcnc.org I am in the red dot at the top ;)
[09:45:33] <Jymmm> oh so THAT's what that hop is about!
[09:45:47] <paul_c> and see where the yellow lines converge...
[09:46:00] <anonimasu> where's that place?
[09:46:05] <anonimasu> you?
[09:46:11] <paul_c> ;)
[09:47:23] <anonimasu> nice
[09:47:52] <Phydbleep> You see the dot out in the middle of nowhere in the US? I'm southwest of that.
[09:48:06] <Jymmm> WTF?! Acrobat READER download is 27MB
[09:48:33] <paul_c> Jymmm: Have a free copy of xpdf on the house.
[09:48:47] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[09:49:20] <Jymmm> Nah, I'll just find an older version
[09:49:42] <Phydbleep> I've got several old versions if you want one.
[09:50:10] <anonimasu> brb eating a banana
[09:50:11] <anonimasu> :)
[09:50:13] <Phydbleep> Look on motherboard driver cd's if you have any.
[09:51:00] <Jymmm> Thanks. But I even have Acrobat for MS-DOS around here somewhere
[09:51:50] <Jymmm> it looks sorta funky when you try to view a pdf from dos, but it works
[09:55:19] <anonimasu> hehe
[09:55:19] <anonimasu> nice
[09:55:38] <anonimasu> I found some nice conrods for cars..
[09:56:15] <Jymmm> some what?!
[09:56:15] <anonimasu> the site said "theese conrods are not forged, because forging makes internal stress inside of the rods and make them crack"
[09:56:25] <anonimasu> machined from solid billet aluminium 7071
[09:56:28] <anonimasu> ^_^
[09:56:29] <Phydbleep> Spherical rod ends?
[09:56:40] <anonimasu> I dont know some noname brand..
[09:56:54] <anonimasu> I found a place that sells carillo for my car.. they are good enough..
[09:57:06] <anonimasu> or rather, they are the best :)
[09:57:17] <anonimasu> I loved the comment..
[09:58:06] <Phydbleep> http://www.magnumforceracing.com/fk_rodends.asp Like these
[09:58:35] <anonimasu> no
[09:58:43] <anonimasu> like www.carilloind.com
[09:59:07] <anonimasu> engine conrods :)
[10:00:17] <anonimasu> carillo are used in the pikes peak racecars.. for example :)
[10:00:31] <Phydbleep> www.carilloind.com gets me a "This domain hijacked" page.
[10:00:43] <anonimasu> http://www.carrilloind.com/
[10:00:45] <Phydbleep> Ahh.. OK..
[10:00:58] <anonimasu> s/r/rr/
[10:01:06] <anonimasu> err s/r/rr ^_^
[10:01:59] <Phydbleep> Ah.. Now I know who they are.. There's a hydroplane nut here in town who uses their rods.
[10:02:18] <anonimasu> if I ever get time to finish my other engine that'll be the rods in it..
[10:02:24] <anonimasu> but they cost a arm and a leg
[10:02:25] <anonimasu> :)
[10:02:45] <anonimasu> but I dont think there are any better rods you can buy..
[10:05:05] <Phydbleep> My next engine will not use conrods..
[10:05:25] <Jymmm> goin rotary huh?
[10:05:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[10:05:35] <Phydbleep> Steam. :)
[10:05:50] <anonimasu> someday I'll machine a rotary engine
[10:05:53] <anonimasu> a model of one..
[10:06:10] <Jymmm> I'd like to make a candle powered steam engine
[10:06:26] <anonimasu> the machining itself wouldnt be the hardest part, the apex seals would be
[10:06:32] <Phydbleep> 4 cyl boxer, 2 doudle ended pisons with scotch-yokes.
[10:06:47] <Phydbleep> s/doudle/double
[10:08:17] <anonimasu> http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.skyaid.org/images/wankel_mini.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.skyaid.org/other_vtol.htm&h=180&w=225&sz=31&tbnid=CcylLyTAXCEJ:&tbnh=81&tbnw=101&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwankel%2B%252B%2Bmini%2Bengine%26hl%3Dsv%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
[10:08:20] <Phydbleep> Either that or I'm going to go with a new set of double rotary port heads I've been wanting to try.
[10:09:11] <anonimasu> what's that?
[10:09:15] <Phydbleep> Oh, It so cuuute!
[10:10:36] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: It uses 2 pieces of rotating tubing for the valves, you can open up 1/2 the top of the head per valve if you do it right..
[10:10:51] <anonimasu> hm ok
[10:11:46] <anonimasu> another hard part with making a wankel engine would be the shaft..
[10:11:54] <anonimasu> the internal gear's on the rotor..
[10:11:57] <anonimasu> err gear..
[10:12:56] <Phydbleep> Not at all.. Start with 2nd or 3rd gear from a Honda or small automatic transmission.
[10:13:28] <anonimasu> hm, or I could buy a gear that's the right size
[10:13:54] <anonimasu> :)
[10:14:29] <Phydbleep> Yeah, I generally just go to the transmission shop and look in the scrap bin for one to play with.. I'll go buy a new one after I see what it will survive.
[10:15:09] <anonimasu> hm, I dont care for live..
[10:15:15] <anonimasu> it's just a model engine :)
[10:15:18] <anonimasu> http://www.kinzoku.co.jp/image/kikaikakou_p3_b.jpg
[10:15:20] <anonimasu> sweet
[10:15:32] <anonimasu> *jealous*
[10:16:28] <anonimasu> dont you just hate when people are able to mill stuff like taht?
[10:16:30] <anonimasu> that..
[10:16:32] <anonimasu> :D
[10:18:21] <Phydbleep> Nice... That will be one hell of a pump.
[10:18:41] <anonimasu> yeah
[10:18:52] <anonimasu> I wish I could see a video of somone machining a impeller like taht..
[10:18:53] <anonimasu> that..
[10:18:55] <anonimasu> or see it irl..
[10:20:16] <Phydbleep> If I read that right it's a 15" chuck. So that is big jet-ski or small jacuzzi-jet.
[10:21:23] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[10:22:31] <Phydbleep> They probably tried to overspin the old one and had it cavitate to bit..
[10:22:34] <Phydbleep> bits
[10:24:03] <anonimasu> http://www.kinzoku.co.jp/image/kikaikakou_p2_b.jpg
[10:24:23] <anonimasu> http://www.kinzoku.co.jp/image/kikaikakou_p4_b.jpg
[10:25:15] <anonimasu> they have all toys I want ;)
[10:25:26] <anonimasu> http://kinzoku.kinzoku.co.jp/index_e.html
[10:26:18] <Phydbleep> I see that..
[10:26:28] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep found the english pages
[10:26:48] <anonimasu> hehe
[10:28:29] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders what a 5"x8" envelope to Nort Sweden and back would cost...
[10:28:37] <Phydbleep> North
[10:29:32] <anonimasu> you'r probably better off having somone machine it locally
[10:29:33] <anonimasu> :)
[10:30:15] <anonimasu> make a quote on cnczone..
[10:30:16] <anonimasu> :
[10:30:17] <anonimasu> :)
[10:31:25] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... it's only $5 ???
[10:31:41] <anonimasu> I am unsure how good the results would get...
[10:31:42] <anonimasu> :)
[10:32:26] <Phydbleep> This would all be standard .1 spacing for DIP's and Berh headers.
[10:32:42] <anonimasu> I've never machined any boards..
[10:35:36] <Phydbleep> I wouldn't expect through plated holes or anything like that, just routed and drilled.
[10:35:42] <anonimasu> still..
[10:36:47] <Phydbleep> Hehehe.. Afraid it'll work and everyone will want some?
[10:37:23] <anonimasu> more afraid to loose time I can use for work..
[10:38:03] <Phydbleep> Ahh... No time to try building your own stepper driver units. :)
[10:38:33] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep looks for cnczone.com
[10:39:00] <anonimasu> yeah :)
[10:39:09] <anonimasu> I'd rather buy a STG..
[10:40:24] <Phydbleep> WOW, That looks like my spindle drive motor. :) Big 400 oz-in stepper.
[10:40:35] <anonimasu> hehe
[10:45:08] <Jymmm> Mornin Les
[10:45:17] <anonimasu> hey les
[10:48:17] <Phydbleep> anonimasu: Are you a member @ cnczone?
[10:49:00] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is registering and it wants to know if a member refered.
[10:50:33] <anonimasu> yeah..
[10:50:55] <les> morning
[10:51:52] <Phydbleep> sticking anonimasu in the box will work?
[10:52:03] <anonimasu> an0n
[10:52:04] <anonimasu> works :9
[10:52:05] <Phydbleep> Morning les :)
[10:52:06] <anonimasu> :)
[10:52:34] <les> pretty cold here for this far south...there was some snow on the higher mountains
[10:52:41] <Jymmm> Phydbleep I usually stick anonimasu in the closet, but a box will do =)
[10:53:16] <Phydbleep> Barrel... Hurricane Style!
[10:53:21] <Phydbleep> Hehehe... :)
[10:53:31] <anonimasu> :)
[10:54:18] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep will probably get shot for saying this, but..
[10:55:00] <Phydbleep> I.M.H.O. 90% of Wash D.C. is so far in the closet they've been to Narnia...
[10:56:46] <alex_joni> narnia?
[10:57:13] <Phydbleep> C.S. Lewis.. The Lion,The Witch and the Wardrobe.
[10:57:21] <anonimasu> good books
[10:57:22] <anonimasu> :)
[10:57:25] <alex_joni> right
[10:58:34] <rayh> What's happening?
[10:59:16] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[11:00:49] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is fighting with a motor controller and looking for someone who can mill pc-boards..
[11:01:39] <Phydbleep> I'm about to chuck the controller and start over.
[11:01:56] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: talk to cradek
[11:02:49] <anonimasu> although there are better cs lewis books
[11:03:04] <nevyn> than what?
[11:03:14] <Phydbleep> I know what I want and I can even generate the gerber files for the run.
[11:03:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes home
[11:03:41] <nevyn> * nevyn likes the magigicans nephew and LWW
[11:03:45] <alex_joni> early today
[11:04:04] <les> I am trying to kind of cost upan Hbridge driver
[11:04:11] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: What part of the world is cradek in?
[11:04:16] <les> say 5 amp 90v or so
[11:04:34] <les> 10 peak
[11:04:39] <alex_joni> Phydbleep: to my knowledge US
[11:04:48] <Phydbleep> alex_joni: Cool :)
[11:05:03] <rayh> I believe that he is in Eastern Time.
[11:05:15] <alex_joni> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc
[11:05:19] <Phydbleep> les: You want to do what with an H-Bridge?
[11:06:17] <les> just exploring whether I should make them in house for a product
[11:06:30] <les> (servo amp)
[11:06:52] <rayh> PWM into an H-Bridge?
[11:07:06] <les> yeah or analog
[11:07:42] <Phydbleep> rayh: PWM into an H works just fine. :)
[11:08:03] <les> I and some others are considering making a commercial small cnc
[11:08:06] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep does it all the time for DC to 3-phase.
[11:08:15] <rayh> Jon Elson has a board that'll do that.
[11:09:09] <rayh> the analog to dc motor.
[11:09:11] <Phydbleep> les: Define "small"
[11:09:27] <les> well 3 amps are about $400 to $900 so it is a significant cost
[11:09:33] <Jymmm> les and do we get a 90% or 99% discount?
[11:09:43] <les> small= 20"x 20"
[11:10:03] <les> ha 99.5%?
[11:10:08] <Phydbleep> les: Would you like a $50/channel solution?
[11:10:24] <les> ha yeah something like that
[11:10:52] <Jymmm> les oh, and cnc what? mill? router? ???
[11:11:09] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep is working with 48V 15 amp DC to 3-phase units for bicycle motors.
[11:11:14] <les> router with some metal capability
[11:11:46] <Phydbleep> Big 1HP 3pole steppers. :)
[11:12:06] <les> heh
[11:12:19] <les> looking at a servo solution
[11:12:24] <Phydbleep> I designed the current batch of controllers for the company. :)
[11:12:36] <les> the world is full of small stepper based machines
[11:13:24] <les> I just wonder if 3 amps need to be hundreds of dollars
[11:13:27] <Phydbleep> Stepper + absolute position sensor.
[11:13:45] <anonimasu> not if you could develop them yourself..
[11:13:59] <anonimasu> you should have a look at FPGA's
[11:14:21] <anonimasu> for the logic..
[11:14:24] <Phydbleep> 3 amps, 4 channels should be ~ $18 each in 1000 lots.
[11:14:41] <les> well....whatever is least costly and can deliver 1000 in/min and .001" repeatability
[11:15:00] <SWPadnos> $18 for the driver (chip) only, or for a complete unit?
[11:15:12] <les> $18 sounds good but need about 5 amps cont 10 peak
[11:15:22] <Phydbleep> That's strictly for the drivers.. The encoders would be another ~$10 in parts.
[11:15:28] <SWPadnos> the 90V rating will also severely limit your options
[11:15:47] <Phydbleep> That's for 20amp peak MOSFETs
[11:15:51] <les> yes I know...I perhaps can bend on the 90v
[11:16:26] <Jymmm> les : What was the name of that stuff you mix with water to laminate MDF ?
[11:16:37] <SWPadnos> Have you seen the posts on the Geckodrive list about turning them into straight PWM servo drives?
[11:16:45] <les> I't xalled glue.
[11:16:49] <Phydbleep> each channel end up about the size of a cigarette pack with a heat sink the same size.
[11:16:50] <les> called
[11:16:51] <les> heh
[11:16:53] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: ZIP-Wax
[11:17:11] <les> Phy: sounds good
[11:17:22] <Jymmm> les you called it something else though?
[11:17:25] <SWPadnos> oh - laminate - nevermind :) (but it'll be really shiny with Zip wax)
[11:17:34] <les> ?
[11:17:43] <Phydbleep> les: Let me get some sleep and I'll check on the parts in 8-10 hours.
[11:17:44] <SWPadnos> Adhesive?
[11:17:50] <les> powdered resin glue...
[11:18:03] <les> thanks Phy
[11:18:33] <Phydbleep> No problem.. Hehehe... Send me a cnc unit if you get rich. :)
[11:18:53] <SWPadnos> les - what price range are you looking for (per axis)?
[11:18:55] <Jymmm> Ah... Plastic Resin Glue
[11:19:10] <les> yes it is an amino resin
[11:19:31] <les> that is typically used as the binder
[11:19:39] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: I think I can get it to <$50 per axis.
[11:19:57] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: encoders and all. :)
[11:20:02] <Jymmm> les http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/13315.shtml
[11:20:12] <SWPadnos> The encoders on the motors?
[11:20:17] <les> I am just trying to cost this thing up
[11:21:11] <les> yeah that's the stuff urea formaldehyde
[11:21:25] <SWPadnos> piss preservative - great
[11:22:03] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: I was going for simple multi-row encoders with a sync hole.
[11:22:42] <SWPadnos> linear on the table or rotary on the motor?
[11:22:54] <CIA-9> 03rumley * 10documents/scratch.txt: Testing... testing... Trying out TortoiseCVS's commit tools. Which text in what dialog gets put where...
[11:23:03] <les> urea forms amino resins by dehydration
[11:23:07] <Phydbleep> SWPadnos: Rotary for both with what i'm thinking.
[11:23:11] <les> specifically melamine
[11:23:24] <SWPadnos> hmmm - what resolution are you thinking about (how many CPR)?
[11:23:31] <Phydbleep> Lovely... Piss countertop.. :\
[11:23:40] <SWPadnos> that's what I was thinking :)
[11:24:12] <les> yup
[11:25:11] <Phydbleep> 1 step/count for the outer ring then a 8-9 bit code for absolute rotation inside of that.
[11:25:50] <SWPadnos> ah - OK. Using photo film disks or the like
[11:25:57] <Phydbleep> That should give a return for every discrete step.
[11:26:16] <Phydbleep> Yeah, film or drilled brass plates. :)
[11:26:49] <les> absolute encoders tend to be a little expensive due to the phototransistor arrays
[11:26:51] <SWPadnos> You'd need an awfully small drill (or a very large disk) for that :)
[11:27:43] <Phydbleep> use one on the motor and another one on the carriage scaled for length.
[11:27:46] <SWPadnos> you can use a monochrome linear CCD array
[11:28:11] <Phydbleep> les: linear optical sensors, like they use in cheap scanners. :)
[11:28:12] <SWPadnos> (like a cheap optical mouse)
[11:28:31] <les> CCD needs to be fast though
[11:28:49] <Phydbleep> Drive it with IR.
[11:28:55] <SWPadnos> Logitech MX1000 does 800 updates / sec or something like that
[11:29:10] <SWPadnos> that's pretty close to the servo update rate
[11:29:12] <Phydbleep> sync it to the drive pulses.
[11:29:14] <anonimasu> thoose sensors are expensive if i remember it correctly
[11:30:01] <anonimasu> I dont know if it's profitable building the encoders..
[11:30:16] <anonimasu> honestly
[11:30:29] <SWPadnos> with USDigital ones starting at $19, probably not
[11:30:36] <SWPadnos> (in single qty)
[11:30:52] <SWPadnos> also, geckodrives are way less expensive in quantity
[11:30:55] <anonimasu> the encoders you can buy are probably better then anything you could possible build yourself
[11:31:05] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: geckos wont do 1000ipm :)
[11:31:17] <SWPadnos> wanna bet?
[11:31:28] <anonimasu> what do you generate your pulses with?
[11:31:42] <SWPadnos> Either the G200x or Jon Elson's USC
[11:31:47] <SWPadnos> (or an FPGA)
[11:32:00] <SWPadnos> 1000 IPM is 16.666 IPS
[11:32:15] <SWPadnos> you can do 250k pulses/sec with a Gecko
[11:32:21] <Phydbleep> Fairchild has an 18 pin DIP with a 256x1 array..
[11:32:24] <les> Yes I need about 160k pps
[11:32:36] <SWPadnos> 250k / 16.666is 15000 steps per inch
[11:32:56] <SWPadnos> so - 0.0001 resolution only needs 167k
[11:33:04] <les> but I do not have much issue with encoder costs
[11:33:17] <les> $25 will buy that easily in quantitiy
[11:33:36] <SWPadnos> The geckos go down to around $85-90 in quantity, I believe
[11:33:40] <anonimasu> les: do you need cosed loop?
[11:33:45] <les> yes
[11:33:53] <les> but not in the amp
[11:33:58] <anonimasu> yep
[11:34:03] <anonimasu> only to the pc..
[11:34:09] <les> right
[11:34:17] <les> amp would run current mode
[11:34:51] <les> voltage or PWM controlled current source
[11:34:55] <SWPadnos> you can also do that with a small modification to a Gecko
[11:35:15] <les> yes I know that
[11:35:22] <SWPadnos> You might want to contact Mariss and ask if you can get a run of boards without the logic section
[11:35:40] <anonimasu> I wonder if I could do that and run with a vital
[11:35:45] <les> I Have talked to Marisss a good bit about that
[11:35:57] <anonimasu> ordering new drives would be a waste
[11:36:05] <anonimasu> if you can do that reliably
[11:36:16] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has to go fall over...
[11:36:22] <les> heh
[11:36:27] <SWPadnos> I'm sure you'd have to have a big order (in the several hundred to 1000 unit range) to get him to change his production line though
[11:36:34] <Phydbleep> les: Let me know what's going on later. :)
[11:36:54] <les> I am just trying to shave away some of the cost of 3 amps/servos/encoders
[11:37:01] <les> ok Phy
[11:37:09] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: if you find out how to do it tell me
[11:37:20] <SWPadnos> the Gecko mod?
[11:37:33] <anonimasu> yeah
[11:37:42] <anonimasu> you just saved me a couple of 100$
[11:37:43] <anonimasu> :)
[11:37:45] <SWPadnos> hold on one sec
[11:37:51] <les> just bypass the step converter
[11:38:18] <les> should be an analog input to the pWM stage
[11:38:31] <SWPadnos> From Mariss: (several lines follow)
[11:38:33] <anonimasu> neat! ^_^
[11:38:36] <les> where the pid is summed
[11:38:47] <SWPadnos> Understand hacking the drive voids the warrantee. Having said that,
[11:38:48] <les> Marris uses analog op amps for pid
[11:38:49] <SWPadnos> auto-reset the drive by shorting ERR/RES to ENC+. Cut the trace going
[11:38:50] <SWPadnos> to pin 2 of the LM393 which is immediately behind the LIMIT trimpot.
[11:38:52] <SWPadnos> Connect a 500 Ohm pot across ENC+ to ENC- and take the wiper to pin 2
[11:38:53] <SWPadnos> of the LM393.
[11:39:26] <anonimasu> I have a broken servo gecko :)
[11:39:29] <SWPadnos> IE, pin 2 of that LM393 is the PWM control input
[11:39:35] <anonimasu> with a dead input stage ;)
[11:39:56] <les> I have asked Marris to provide a +/-10 analog in to the 320/340
[11:40:09] <les> It wouldn't cost anything
[11:40:13] <anonimasu> hm, what did he say about it
[11:40:24] <SWPadnos> not just no but "Fuck No" :)
[11:40:32] <anonimasu> I hope the hack works good :)
[11:40:42] <les> He said he would consider it
[11:40:43] <anonimasu> my vital purchase just went a couple of months close
[11:40:44] <anonimasu> r
[11:40:59] <les> It is a nice value added feature that costs almost nothing
[11:41:20] <anonimasu> yeah
[11:41:39] <anonimasu> I'd gladly pay a bit extra for it..
[11:41:43] <anonimasu> if I would have known..
[11:41:53] <les> but I did not push it because I need to do better than the cost of the geckos
[11:42:03] <les> much better
[11:42:03] <anonimasu> geckos are good, but well, signal generating from the pc isnt that good..
[11:42:19] <SWPadnos> I'm looking for an email that has OEM pricing - it's really pretty good
[11:42:27] <les> servo signal with pc is fine
[11:42:43] <anonimasu> yeah
[11:42:46] <anonimasu> but pulse generation isnt
[11:43:09] <les> I would expect $75 or so OEM quan 100
[11:43:19] <les> right
[11:43:52] <Jymmm> $7.50
[11:43:58] <Jymmm> for three
[11:44:31] <les> For 1000 ipm, .001 repeatability, and about 500 in oz torque a servo solution should be cheaper
[11:46:02] <Jymmm> Other than using a tapping head, any way to use a cnc router to tap by chance?
[11:46:29] <anonimasu> if you have a servo spindle..
[11:46:30] <anonimasu> :
[11:46:31] <anonimasu> :)
[11:46:36] <les> for big holes a thread milling cutter will work
[11:46:37] <SWPadnos> threadmilling
[11:46:46] <Jymmm> 1/4-20
[11:46:49] <Jymmm> max
[11:46:57] <SWPadnos> tapping head is the way
[11:47:06] <Jymmm> 4-40 smallest
[11:47:08] <SWPadnos> there are a bunch of different kinds though
[11:47:08] <les> a little small for thread milling
[11:47:37] <Jymmm> just curious, where can I read about threadmilling?
[11:47:44] <SWPadnos> you might be able oto se a rigid tapper (which I think is less expensive)
[11:47:49] <les> don't know...
[11:47:50] <SWPadnos> able to use
[11:47:52] <anonimasu> logger_aj, bookmark
[11:47:52] <anonimasu> See
[11:47:57] <anonimasu> yesterdays log
[11:48:08] <SWPadnos> yes - carbidedepot.com
[11:48:16] <anonimasu> http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-threadmilling.htm
[11:48:26] <SWPadnos> that's the one :)
[11:49:02] <Jymmm> Oh, I get it now.... it follows the contour to cut the threads
[11:49:53] <les> Anyway 3 amps, 3 servos, and 3 encoders off the shelf quan 10 can easily be $2000
[11:50:01] <anonimasu> yeah
[11:50:04] <les> I need to cut that in half or more
[11:50:15] <les> and I think I can
[11:51:03] <SWPadnos> the servos are the real killer there
[11:51:08] <SWPadnos> they seem irreducible
[11:51:25] <les> yup they do seem to be....
[11:51:33] <Jymmm> back to my cnc router threads a sec.... any suggestions for a motor/spindle? A router seems too high rpm and too low torque at lowered speeds
[11:52:14] <les> I just look at what really needs to be there to provide torque
[11:52:41] <les> Jymmm yes you would need a low speed high torque spindle
[11:53:24] <Jymmm> les That I know, but what? I'd use a corded drill, but can't think of a way to mount it accuretly
[11:53:34] <SWPadnos> your drill press
[11:53:47] <SWPadnos> using the lowest speed dbelt configuration
[11:53:59] <Jymmm> SWPadnos this being cnc router
[11:54:23] <SWPadnos> well - you need big motors for low speed/high torque applications
[11:54:36] <les> I have a design where the spindle is easily removed
[11:54:49] <SWPadnos> are you talking about building your routers, or tapping with your end product?
[11:55:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos tappign with end product
[11:55:12] <SWPadnos> les: your spindle mount is more costly than Jymmm's entire router :)
[11:55:13] <les> for a low speed drilling spindle I would use a fairly high speed motot belt drive reduced
[11:55:40] <les> SWP haha yes I guess
[11:57:28] <Jymmm> Eh, I think I'll play aroudn with a variable speed CORDed drill
[11:58:04] <Jymmm> ty
[11:58:21] <les> My spindle mount can be rotated and locked at various angles... it is on two huge 3" tapered roller bearings hevily preloaded
[11:58:26] <SWPadnos> One day, I'll actually get collets and bits for my small tapmatic
[11:59:02] <les> I just have one of those chinese hand tappers
[11:59:09] <les> I have a couple
[11:59:24] <SWPadnos> and another day, I may find a larger one for not too much money
[11:59:39] <SWPadnos> (but I'm not holding my breath on that one)
[12:00:21] <les> I am trying to guess how many holes I tapped on the cnc....
[12:00:28] <les> building it
[12:00:35] <SWPadnos> n^2
[12:00:40] <les> certainly hundreds
[12:00:44] <SWPadnos> where n is the number you think you did :)
[12:00:53] <les> prob over a thousand
[12:01:23] <les> like the rails...
[12:01:40] <les> 5/16 about 2 inches deep
[12:02:25] <les> I remember I drilled and tapped the rail mounting holes after scraping
[12:02:53] <les> and the stress warped the surface about .002"
[12:02:57] <SWPadnos> yep - see, it's arrays of holes like that, that you really want to do on a CNC :)
[12:03:01] <les> had to rescrape a bit
[12:03:38] <les> well now I can make little cnc machines on the big cnc
[12:03:45] <les> it is metal capable
[12:03:59] <SWPadnos> heh - somebody needs to make a machine that can make all the parts for itself
[12:04:17] <les> self replication
[12:04:29] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:04:29] <anonimasu> hehe
[12:04:31] <SWPadnos> well - not necessarily automated :)
[12:04:34] <les> lots of machines can do that some
[12:04:45] <paul_c> http://staff.bath.ac.uk/ensab/replicator/
[12:06:04] <les> Ah Johnny Von Neumann stuff
[12:06:56] <SWPadnos> I'd love to have the construction robots from Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy
[12:08:29] <les> I have often thought of mking some kind of bug that crawls along surfaces and grinds them flat or straight
[12:09:01] <SWPadnos> that, on steroids (and building sized) is what I'm talking about :)
[12:09:17] <les> it could be done
[12:09:48] <les> I was just thinking of a little bug with a small grinder...say 1 kWor less
[12:10:14] <les> just let the thing go and crawl around
[12:10:51] <SWPadnos> I guess sensing absolute (or relative) elevation to the required precision might be a challenge
[12:11:02] <les> yeah
[12:11:18] <les> integrating levels is one way
[12:11:24] <les> laser is another
[12:11:43] <les> I think integrating levels would work
[12:12:02] <Jymmm> water level
[12:12:10] <SWPadnos> vibration could be an issue though
[12:12:11] <les> have it do the same thing as my write up on making flat surfaces
[12:12:42] <SWPadnos> but then, if it's automatic, the machinecould stop, wait, measure, start up again ad infinitum
[12:12:58] <les> sure vibration would have to be dealt with but I don't see a problem with enough signal conditioning
[12:13:13] <les> SWP: yeah that is also a way
[12:13:59] <les> Once I drew up plans for a little bug that crawls around on high rise windows and licks off the dirt
[12:14:44] <les> giving it water to drink is a problem...
[12:15:08] <SWPadnos> heh
[12:18:31] <les> I just saw on cnn...no cigarette lighters any more on airplanes
[12:18:32] <les> so
[12:19:17] <les> we have guaranteed sales of number of passengers x 0.25 at all times
[12:19:25] <les> than will be billions?
[12:19:30] <SWPadnos> well - it was kind of funny that you could take 2 cigarette lighters and 4 books of matches on a plane
[12:19:46] <SWPadnos> (but 5 books of matches and no lighters was too much /)
[12:19:46] <les> I guess
[12:20:08] <les> airport cocession stands will make a lot of money on this
[12:20:23] <les> concession
[12:20:44] <SWPadnos> yes they will
[12:21:33] <SWPadnos> One business idea I had (when both my jackknives were being thrown away at LAX) was a FedEx stand next to the security area
[12:21:50] <les> hmm
[12:21:59] <les> good idea
[12:22:05] <SWPadnos> drop off your stuff and a business card (or a copy of your ticket), and we'll ship that stuff you forgot to put in your checked bags
[12:22:45] <SWPadnos> Or even ship it counter to counter in the airports - it just gets put on the plane in the cargo area
[12:22:58] <les> I really really don't like to fly anymore
[12:23:38] <SWPadnos> I love flying, but I can't stand the stupidity of the "security measures"
[12:23:46] <les> unless Iam flying myself
[12:23:48] <SWPadnos> (which don't actually help with security)
[12:24:10] <rayh> Stay away from big airports. The rectal checks are great in the small ones.
[12:24:10] <SWPadnos> I love the security questions - "are you going to blow up the plane" and the like
[12:24:28] <SWPadnos> like I'd answer yes if that *was* my plan...
[12:24:34] <les> I just can't take the security stuff...I get pissed than they put me in the little room
[12:24:58] <SWPadnos> I've got it down to a science
[12:25:14] <SWPadnos> I almost never get slowed down, and that's with a computer bag full of tricks
[12:25:20] <les> usually I have electronics gizmos with me if it is a typical business trip
[12:25:55] <les> I am just sick of it
[12:26:10] <les> When I go to chicago I just drive
[12:26:57] <SWPadnos> Well - that's a 15 hour drive for me, so the 2-hour flight is way more convenient :)
[12:27:38] <les> I take the travel money and get a nice rental car like a caddy or jag
[12:27:48] <SWPadnos> well - there is that
[12:27:48] <les> and book nicer hotel rooms
[12:28:08] <SWPadnos> plus you then have a car in Chicago, which is useful
[12:28:16] <les> right
[12:29:01] <SWPadnos> But, you are a little closer to things than I am - you're only all the way to the right - I'm all the way up the map as well :)
[12:29:28] <les> It is 15 hrs or so from here
[12:30:04] <SWPadnos> Same distance to Chicago, but on average, you're closer to everywhere else :)
[12:30:17] <les> crossing the mountains slows me down a bit
[12:31:02] <SWPadnos> Actually, it may be closer to 20 hours from here - it's 8 hours to Buffalo (if I'm really hauling)
[12:31:13] <les> wow
[12:31:19] <les> where are you?
[12:31:22] <les> maine?
[12:31:27] <SWPadnos> Essex Junction, Vermont
[12:31:36] <SWPadnos> 30 miles south of Canada
[12:31:37] <les> oh ok
[12:32:13] <les> I guess you are still waiting for spring to happen
[12:32:42] <SWPadnos> yeah
[12:32:57] <SWPadnos> it was warm for a few days, but it seems to be back down into the 40s again
[12:33:12] <les> here it is typically 75f or so in the afternoon
[12:33:27] <SWPadnos> prick
[12:33:28] <les> but it did snow last night at higher elevations
[12:33:35] <les> above 5000 ft
[12:33:41] <les> haha
[12:34:00] <SWPadnos> Well - the wife and I are going to Ft. Lauderdale next week
[12:34:04] <SWPadnos> (actually Weston)
[12:34:19] <rayh> Darn less. We've got robins pulling worms and the lake is open here.
[12:34:22] <les> plenty warm there
[12:34:28] <SWPadnos> so we should get warm, and it ought to be a little more spring/summerish when we get back
[12:34:46] <les> yeah
[12:35:07] <les> In Chicago june frosts were possible but rare
[12:36:08] <rayh> I've seen snow on the air in July while pulling beets and carrots.
[12:36:16] <les> Spring is nice here...but the tree pollen is very bad right now
[12:36:31] <les> it clogs car radiators and air filters
[12:37:39] <paul_c> I'm sure I lugged a few kilos of that yellow stuff back with me last year..
[12:37:49] <les> yeah
[12:38:26] <les> well much of the south is pine forest...but here in the mountains it is a narrow strip of almost all hardwoods
[12:39:22] <les> spruce at the highest elevations
[12:40:52] <les> well have to go to the post office and mail some encoder parts
[12:41:54] <les> biaw
[13:35:55] <anonimasu> hello
[13:55:20] <robin_sz> meep?
[13:55:50] <Jymmm> * Jymmm dogpiles robin_sz GOOD MORNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:56:03] <robin_sz> hey!
[13:56:19] <robin_sz> well, the company just expanded its employ base by 100%
[13:56:36] <Jymmm> WOOHOO! A slave has been born!!!
[13:57:04] <robin_sz> well, now I need to run again
[13:57:15] <Jymmm> robin_sz Toodles!
[13:57:25] <robin_sz> get over to that sign exhibition ...
[13:57:42] <robin_sz> was supposed to go Tueday, but stuff happened argh ..
[13:57:45] <robin_sz> right later.
[13:57:50] <andy__> hello
[13:57:54] <paul_c> Hi andy__
[13:57:55] <anonimasu> thello
[13:58:25] <paul_c> anonimasu: Your lisp is showing
[13:58:29] <andy__> I just found this emc, looks very cool
[13:59:21] <paul_c> we're working on it...
[13:59:31] <anonimasu> haha ^_^
[13:59:40] <anonimasu> I'll be back later
[14:00:36] <paul_c> * paul_c disappears for a cigar.
[14:00:54] <andy__> I noticed a "live cd" is that just for install? or will it actually run a machine? similar to knoppix
[14:01:44] <paul_c> it is usefull for testing the hardware...
[14:01:58] <andy__> I see
[14:02:22] <paul_c> it will run a machine, but the ini needs to be modified if the defaults don't suit
[14:02:41] <paul_c> You can use it as an install, but....
[14:03:09] <paul_c> the developer has moved on to supporting the BDI-4 series.
[14:06:52] <SWPadnos> can't the developer just maintain both?
[14:06:56] <andy__> ok, can you recommend a good general cnc irc channel? or a good general support website, I have googled
[14:07:31] <SWPadnos> do you know the various Yahoo groups?
[14:07:47] <paul_c> #emc for EMC & a bit of linux support..
[14:08:07] <andy__> no I don't know the yahoo groups
[14:08:14] <paul_c> SWPadnos: IF the developer had time to do both.... Maybe.
[14:08:24] <SWPadnos> CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO for machine building stuff
[14:08:38] <SWPadnos> paul_c: isn't there infinite time in each day? :)
[14:09:16] <paul_c> 'pends how long it takes to change a lightbulb
[14:09:21] <SWPadnos> jobshophomeshop or something like that for machining related stuff (like actually using the CNC you build from the discussions in CCED)
[14:09:25] <SWPadnos> 572
[14:09:51] <SWPadnos> There's another one I can't remember - you can probably search groups.yahoo.com for relevant ones
[14:10:05] <andy__> thanks swp, I shall search there
[14:10:05] <paul_c> andy__: There's also the emc-users mailing list
[14:11:06] <SWPadnos> ah - DIY-CNC
[14:11:43] <andy__> thanks
[14:11:58] <SWPadnos> you're welcome
[14:12:53] <andy__> I need to persuade my sysAdmin that I need to use the internet at work :(
[14:13:36] <paul_c> ask him for a root shell at the same time. ;-/
[14:14:11] <andy__> heh, i don't need that I'll just ssh back home :)
[14:15:10] <paul_c> be back shortly.
[14:33:24] <Jymmm> never refuse a root shell if you can geet it =)
[14:39:20] <andy__> Jymmm, good point
[15:20:11] <Deech> meep
[15:20:47] <Deech> Is "Servo to Go" the only servo controller that EMC can use?
[15:33:25] <paul_c> two cards from the Vigilant range, the Vital card, and
[15:33:40] <pemmet> hi
[15:33:46] <paul_c> a Sensoray PC104 card.
[15:34:11] <paul_c> Evening pemmet
[15:34:31] <pemmet> good afternoon, paul
[15:35:44] <Deech> thanks. :)
[15:54:12] <Deech> is there any sites where servo control is discussed in detail with EMC?
[15:55:24] <paul_c> not that I know of...
[15:55:49] <Deech> hum. Ok. It's always nice to be foraging ahead in uncharted waters.
[15:56:00] <paul_c> Les Watts is quite knowedgable about servos & emc
[15:56:33] <Deech> thanks.
[15:56:37] <Deech> bbl. lunch
[15:56:58] <paul_c> There are a few others on the mail list that use servos
[15:57:40] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: another meeting. another beer.
[16:09:22] <anonimasu> lol
[16:28:37] <A-L-P-H-A> wow... I'm sooo used to alu. that when I bought mild steel, it's SOO heavy.
[16:28:49] <A-L-P-H-A> 2ft of 1.75" is heavy.
[16:33:10] <A-L-P-H-A> now to finish the design... with the metal as my limiting factor.
[16:33:21] <A-L-P-H-A> as = was :D
[16:45:17] <les> Deech I am a servo emc user
[16:46:56] <les> We can talk after lunch
[16:48:01] <A-L-P-H-A> hahaha. "Fortunately, alligators don't corner well, so if one is chasing you - get ready for an Alligator Safety Tip - you're supposed to run in circles. I'm serious. Schoolchildren are taught this in Florida, while children in other states are learning to read."
[16:48:01] <A-L-P-H-A> -- Dave Barry
[16:49:11] <joe2000chevy> hello
[16:49:25] <SWPadnos> you really notice how dense steel is when you buy 3.25x6x8 inch blocks of it
[16:49:55] <SWPadnos> and have them shipped to you :)
[16:54:46] <joe2000chevy> well I went back to EMC two nights ago, and it works well now, the reason for step loss was i has the feed rate set to high, man do i feel like a fool... LOL
[16:55:28] <joe2000chevy> oh and a 35v power suply instead of 12v helps also... :)
[17:01:58] <SWPadnos> 1.21 gigawatts, baby :)
[17:14:36] <A-L-P-H-A> I feel a little scared. I'm about to "modify" a tool, to make it into a spindle. I bought a DA300 x 6" x 0.5" collet extension. Which I'm about to thread the shaft to house a nuts on either end.
[17:22:42] <joe2000chevy> lol, it will work out :)
[17:31:44] <les> Aren't those extensions hardened?
[17:34:38] <Deech> bak.
[17:34:50] <Deech> Hello les
[17:35:01] <Deech> you still around?
[17:39:13] <les> yes I'm here now
[17:39:18] <les> servo questions?
[17:39:25] <Deech> Yes.
[17:39:28] <les> shoot
[17:39:50] <Deech> How do I make them servos make with the moving?
[17:39:57] <Deech> I kid. I kid.
[17:40:06] <les> heh
[17:41:47] <Deech> Ok. sorry, was on the phone with the wife. done now.
[17:42:00] <les> np
[17:42:48] <Deech> Ok, in a more intellegent way now.. how do I make with the servos moving? In general. I'm smart enought to fill in the blanks, but I'm having a hard time getting the "big picture" of the components I need.
[17:43:21] <A-L-P-H-A> les, I dont know if it's hardened.
[17:43:35] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't think so, as there's some dents in it form use.
[17:44:25] <A-L-P-H-A> Deech, power supply. controllers (www.geckodrive.com). servos. computer.
[17:44:29] <les> you need servos with encoders, servo amps, and a card for the computer
[17:44:34] <Deech> Ah
[17:44:35] <A-L-P-H-A> oh yeah, encoders.
[17:44:40] <les> and a power supply
[17:44:49] <A-L-P-H-A> like I said.
[17:44:51] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[17:44:57] <Deech> ok.
[17:45:01] <A-L-P-H-A> les likes ot repeat me alot.
[17:45:04] <A-L-P-H-A> don't mind him. ;)
[17:45:06] <les> haw
[17:45:39] <Deech> So, the computer gets the card, fer instance, the Vital Systems MOTENC-100, then from that you go to the servo amps, which go to the servos?
[17:45:52] <Deech> the encoder feeds back to the card?
[17:45:55] <les> right
[17:46:01] <les> also right
[17:46:04] <Deech> sweet.
[17:46:08] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm thinking I should have taken my friend up on the coffee. tired now.
[17:47:11] <les> wait till you try to cut threads on that extension
[17:47:40] <les> actually I hopr you figure something out...extensions do make a good start for a spindle
[17:47:53] <Deech> now, with the card, I see the connectors, looks like flat cable. From those I go to a breakout board, then wire over to the servo amps?
[17:48:18] <les> right you need some kind of breakout board
[17:48:31] <Deech> then the servo amps will have a cable that runs off to the servos themselves.
[17:48:57] <les> yes
[17:49:17] <Deech> Am I right in assuming it doesn't matter what size the servos are to the contoller, just to the amps.
[17:49:32] <Deech> in other words, you can drive whatever size servo you want, provided the amp can push it.
[17:49:33] <les> servo amps are much like audio amps...in fact you can hook them to a speaker
[17:49:59] <les> yes any size if rated for it
[17:50:05] <Deech> cool.
[17:50:16] <Deech> and by "cool" I mean, "totally sweet"
[17:50:22] <les> heh
[17:50:29] <les> so you have the card?
[17:50:36] <Deech> not yet. still designing.
[17:50:53] <les> what size machine?
[17:50:59] <Deech> so many choices, I was still figuring out what bits I need.
[17:51:13] <Deech> it's going to be an industrial robot for automated inventory pack and management.
[17:51:30] <les> ok
[17:51:43] <les> worked on one of those a while back
[17:51:45] <Deech> basically, a pick lift for 300lb hunks of steel.
[17:51:51] <les> had a gantry
[17:52:00] <Deech> define gantry.
[17:52:11] <les> it was about 20x20x15 foot work envelope
[17:52:21] <Deech> I'm not doing the mechanical design, I'm just the guy who figures out how to make it move.
[17:52:23] <Deech> :)
[17:52:27] <les> overhead support for y axis
[17:53:09] <Deech> we're looking at shelving cells about 100ft long by 15ft high to start with.
[17:53:32] <les> well you work back from your loads and mechanical stuff to size the amps and motors
[17:53:48] <Deech> the cran will move along the X, up and down the Y and Z in and out with A rotating the forks.
[17:54:27] <rayh> Deech: What are they saying the worst case cycle time needs to be?
[17:54:27] <Deech> Yea. I've got some guys working on that. They are going to tell me what size motors I'll need and then I'll figure out the amps i'll need from there.
[17:54:31] <les> sounds multi kW
[17:54:41] <Deech> Yea, it'll be fairly good size.
[17:54:48] <Deech> hum.
[17:54:56] <Deech> we'd like it to be fairly quick.
[17:55:03] <Deech> but we haven't determined an exact speed yet.
[17:56:35] <rayh> Quick? One load a minute?
[17:56:51] <Deech> one load every 3-5 minutes, I'd think.
[17:56:56] <les> hmm a stacker
[17:57:14] <les> 1 meter/s plus I would think
[17:57:53] <Deech> what are you thinking there?
[17:58:06] <Deech> am I going to run into a limit somewhere?
[17:58:13] <les> just max speed
[17:58:20] <les> no...no limit really
[17:59:03] <les> the mechanism mass will dominate over the load prob
[17:59:33] <Deech> Yea it will.
[17:59:50] <les> moving mass will prob be 1000 kG at least
[18:00:08] <Deech> that doesn't sound completely out of line.
[18:00:14] <les> with low friction...
[18:00:30] <Deech> it'll be moving on a rail system
[18:00:49] <anonimasu> hm... still that's pretty much
[18:00:53] <les> that will give about 500 joules of energy to get to speed
[18:00:53] <rayh> cable winch? chain?
[18:01:14] <anonimasu> the only limit you will hit is how much $ you are willing to spend on motors and drivers
[18:01:25] <les> and 500 returned to the servo amp supply to brake it
[18:01:32] <Deech> the design at the moment is using a motor on the lift, which is basically a cart that moves itself up and down a rail.
[18:01:45] <anonimasu> how accurate does it have to be?
[18:01:53] <rayh> I was thinking the 100'
[18:02:06] <anonimasu> A company I deal with does positioning with plc's and 3phase motors with resolvers..
[18:02:32] <Deech> well, it needs to be able to place a small pallet and retrieve it accurately from a 12x14 inch cell.
[18:03:02] <les> sounds fairly easy
[18:03:20] <anonimasu> yeah
[18:04:03] <les> encoder can be rotary with a rack
[18:04:10] <les> or a linear one
[18:04:22] <les> but very coasre pitch
[18:04:24] <anonimasu> yep
[18:04:33] <Deech> So, to make things happen, I need the PC with a controller card, breakout boards, amps and the servo motors. is that it?
[18:04:37] <anonimasu> how well it works depends on the design of the pallets..
[18:04:42] <A-L-P-H-A> les, from http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7500678740 to http://www.lloydleung.com/uploads/Exnension_Spindle_design.dwg
[18:04:51] <les> power supply
[18:05:00] <Deech> are you talking about putting some sort of encoder linearly along the shelf or rail?
[18:05:14] <les> yes you could
[18:05:47] <Deech> hum.. that way it'd be positioning itself relative to the shelf and not relative to it's own rotory encoder..
[18:05:54] <les> you could even make one out of a small gear rack and hall sensors
[18:06:34] <les> can be on the machine or shelf...or both
[18:06:37] <anonimasu> hm it dosent really matter, as long as you home it somwhere..
[18:06:43] <les> yup
[18:07:17] <anonimasu> with linear encoders on the shelves you wouldnt have to do that but the cost would skyrocket..
[18:07:29] <Deech> hum. don't want that.
[18:07:31] <Deech> :)
[18:07:39] <anonimasu> and the performance gain would be negligable..
[18:07:58] <les> several ways to make long low cost coarse pitch linear encoders
[18:08:23] <Deech> true enough. as long as you home it, the rotory encoders that can come built onto/into the servos can be used, right?
[18:08:36] <les> sure
[18:08:37] <anonimasu> yeah
[18:08:55] <Deech> that's probably the way to go then. no point in making it more complicated
[18:09:05] <anonimasu> to do positioning with a 3phase motor you need a VFD with thoose capabilities..
[18:09:19] <Deech> vfd?
[18:09:20] <anonimasu> somthing like the ones "LUST" in germany sells..
[18:09:25] <anonimasu> variable frequency drive..
[18:09:29] <les> as long as your power transmission is accurate that's fine
[18:09:46] <anonimasu> they are supposed to be like servos just with gobs of torque..
[18:09:49] <Deech> interesting.
[18:10:06] <anonimasu> and more inertia ofcourse..
[18:10:14] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, did you see my links?
[18:10:31] <A-L-P-H-A> who's have a good opinion?
[18:10:38] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: no
[18:10:50] <A-L-P-H-A> paul_c, anonimasu, gezr, SWPadnos from http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7500678740 to http://www.lloydleung.com/uploads/Exnension_Spindle_design.dwg
[18:10:57] <A-L-P-H-A> that's the spindle design.
[18:11:17] <anonimasu> nice
[18:11:18] <A-L-P-H-A> I have fresh/new bearings, rated for +21K rpm... so I should be good.
[18:11:20] <anonimasu> I cant see the dwg now..
[18:11:32] <anonimasu> I'll check it in a bit going to move myself to a lan party..
[18:12:25] <Deech> is the term "amp" and "driver" used interchangably?
[18:12:50] <A-L-P-H-A> Deech, in this case yes. but Amp is bad... just use driver. :)
[18:13:17] <Deech> Ok. So I'm going to go from my breakout board to my driver to my servo.
[18:13:24] <A-L-P-H-A> AMP is for power... Driver is the control device to power the motor. Computer is used to tell the driver how to control the motor.
[18:13:47] <Deech> the driver then contains the amp or is it a seperate component?
[18:15:05] <Deech> the pinouts from the breakout board are going to be a standard, so any driver I find that can push the servos I'm using should work, right?
[18:15:22] <Deech> I may have to move the wires around a bit, but overall, I mean.
[18:15:50] <les> they are similar
[18:16:12] <les> you should use differential for all hookups
[18:16:48] <les> so each encoder will be 6 signal wires pus supply and ground
[18:16:55] <les> plus
[18:17:09] <Deech> differential? Like a gear differential?
[18:17:28] <les> no
[18:17:36] <Deech> sorry, confused for a sec.
[18:18:10] <les> differential means that the output is determined by subtacting the signal of the two lines
[18:18:28] <Deech> nifty. ok.
[18:18:29] <les> noise would affect both lines so it cancels
[18:18:46] <les> very important to do that
[18:18:49] <Deech> makes sense.
[18:19:15] <les> good to do it with things like limit switches too
[18:19:38] <Deech> is that as simple as running two seperate wires from the same point, or is there circuitry involved?
[18:20:10] <les> easiest way is to use a differential line driver
[18:20:19] <Deech> got it.
[18:20:19] <les> it's like a buck...
[18:20:29] <Deech> k
[18:21:30] <Deech> thanks, by the way, for helping me get the high concept of what's going on. It's interesting how much of the information I find on the interweb seems to assume you know certain things and doesn't make a lot of sense until you do.
[18:21:40] <les> and use High flex shielded twisted pair
[18:21:56] <les> yw
[18:23:33] <Deech> cool. Well, this gives me a considerable amount to start with. I'm going to run off and get more specific information and maybe come back with more difficult questions later.
[18:24:12] <les> ok ask anytime
[18:24:28] <Deech> thanks again for your help everyone. I'm hoping I end up getting to do some good work on EMC and contribute it back.
[18:24:59] <Deech> or, at the very least, have a cool picture to put on the website.
[18:25:00] <Deech> :)
[18:25:17] <les> I was getting tired of fumbling with those folding drill bit boxes so I made a wood holder for all bits today just while goofing around
[18:25:53] <les> 0-60, a-z, 1/64-1/2
[18:26:13] <les> more work that one might think to drill all those fitted holes
[18:26:38] <les> I used the same diam hole for each 3
[18:27:24] <les> I was also looking here at Lloyd's spindle design
[18:27:53] <les> what is holding the bearings axially on the shaft?
[18:29:42] <les> that would be an issue using a collet extension
[18:30:14] <les> could be a pinned collar or something
[18:30:37] <les> also I see a problem with bearing mounting
[18:31:35] <les> if the extension is say 0.75 diameter...a 0.75 bearing bore might be a poor fit
[18:32:01] <les> shaft would need to be about .7503 or so
[18:32:42] <Phydbleep> Or take a pass where ther bearing will be with the knurling tool.
[18:32:55] <les> ha
[18:33:32] <Phydbleep> I've used that one for prototyping more than once. :)
[18:33:48] <les> I think I would just turn/grind an inch extension down to nearest metric size
[18:33:59] <les> like 25mm for 1 inch
[18:34:58] <les> 17 for .75 in and so on
[18:35:53] <les> that is not enough for a collar, but taking much more off would surely warp it
[18:36:56] <les> I think surface hardness is prob high...rc50-60 so knurling is out on this one
[18:51:44] <anonimasu> hello
[19:24:14] <les> wonder when Robin will get back from the show...he's supposed to do a bit of snooping for me.
[19:25:18] <Jymmm> les gettign anxious?
[19:25:38] <les> Well yeah actually I am.
[19:25:43] <les> heh
[19:25:55] <Jymmm> Dont ya hate when that happens?
[19:26:14] <les> aw I am always anxious about something
[19:26:22] <Jymmm> les mind if I pick your brain in the meantime?
[19:26:59] <les> heh
[19:27:04] <les> go ahaead
[19:28:12] <Jymmm> I want to make (two) self-centering jig for drilling, one for rod stock, another for retangular stock. any ideas or suggestions on where to read on such things?
[19:28:21] <Jymmm> s/rod/round/
[19:28:45] <les> hmm
[19:28:49] <les> let me think
[19:30:14] <les> I guess I would use a drill bushing and some kind of rh/lh screw thing
[19:30:52] <les> moving two v shaped pieces in and out
[19:31:06] <Jymmm> for the round stock, yeah V's
[19:31:34] <les> square too...use the corners
[19:31:46] <les> but not rectangular
[19:32:45] <les> wait I take that back
[19:32:45] <Jymmm> Yeah, I was trying to make it a quick-release clamp at the same time
[19:33:13] <les> it would work with rectangular too
[19:33:27] <les> might be a good product!
[19:34:02] <Jymmm> really?
[19:34:11] <les> yeah!
[19:34:23] <les> I would use one if I had it
[19:35:09] <les> even if it had a center punch instead of a drill bushing
[19:35:24] <les> you know...spring loaded
[19:35:46] <Jymmm> you mean just for marking alone?
[19:35:52] <Jymmm> no drilling involved?
[19:36:01] <les> would be quite handy wouldn't it?
[19:36:20] <les> drill or punch
[19:36:23] <les> or both
[19:36:47] <Jymmm> Well, let me work on it then, I have some ideas already, just wanted to see or designs to see if I can build a better mousetrap
[19:37:11] <les> I have never seen such a thing
[19:37:24] <Jymmm> Nah..... seriously?
[19:37:32] <les> write up a sketch and have it witnessed. Date it.
[19:39:03] <Jymmm> ok
[19:39:14] <Jymmm> excuse me a moment...
[19:39:17] <les> k
[19:39:21] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
[19:39:26] <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
[19:39:34] <Jymmm> ok I'm back
[19:39:42] <les> ??
[19:39:56] <Jymmm> the nick?
[19:40:04] <les> uh yeah heh
[19:40:30] <Jymmm> * Jymmm shits on ChanServ
[19:40:36] <les> oh
[19:40:37] <Jymmm> * Jymmm shits on ChanServ
[19:40:51] <Jymmm> someone was being funny in another channel
[19:41:18] <Jymmm> I have a few nicks on here
[19:41:36] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as CodesWithIdiots
[19:41:47] <CodesWithIdiots> * CodesWithIdiots waves to les
[19:41:51] <CodesWithIdiots> CodesWithIdiots is now known as Jymmm
[19:41:54] <les> I am running paltalk
[19:42:13] <les> audio and tv quality video
[19:42:14] <Jymmm> is that a irc client?
[19:42:22] <les> I will prob set up a room
[19:42:28] <les> not irc
[19:42:54] <Jymmm> never heard of paltalk before
[19:42:58] <les> I need it for videoconferencing cause I don't want to fly to meetings
[19:43:10] <Jymmm> that works =)
[19:43:43] <les> Well 640 480 30fps video and audio real time seems pretty good
[19:44:05] <les> cost$...but not much I think
[19:44:26] <les> I am just trying it out
[19:44:47] <Jymmm> my video card can do that... ATI All-in-wonder... I've even broadcasted TV over the internet before
[19:44:57] <les> cool
[19:46:04] <Jymmm> Neither my gf or me can get away from having TV in the corner of the monitor
[19:46:14] <Jymmm> lol
[20:20:46] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: Use a dual cam for the clamp.. If you rotate them at eth same rate the rect stock will self center.
[20:30:03] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.lloydleung.com/spindle.dwg this download for anyone?
[20:47:44] <A-L-P-H-A> les, get a high quality webcam. They will do 640*480 @ 30 FPS. But you'll need the pipes to push that data through.
[20:48:13] <A-L-P-H-A> and that is not multicasting... that's single p2p connections.
[20:48:19] <A-L-P-H-A> wonder how multicasting would affect things.
[20:58:25] <SWPadnos> I thikn multicast doesn't affect the source much - it's the routers that fan out the data
[21:01:17] <A-L-P-H-A> so how do I tell the router to do that? I don't deal with that stuff...
[21:01:30] <A-L-P-H-A> but it'd be neat to have it multicast... and let the router handle it.
[21:01:34] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, that link work?
[21:11:34] <SWPadnos> sorry -sort of here but away (like simultaneous tea and no tea :) )
[21:11:49] <SWPadnos> you need to set up a multicast group - I'm not sure exactly how it works
[21:12:02] <SWPadnos> I believe there are separate IP address blocks set aside for multicast
[21:12:43] <SWPadnos> and the router(s) have to send packets destined for a particular multicast address to all recipients listed for that address
[21:13:20] <SWPadnos> and yes - I was able to download that file, but you should tag it as a binary rather than a text file :)
[21:17:03] <les> agh robin not back
[21:17:19] <les> I just set up skype voip
[21:17:25] <les> skype is free
[21:17:30] <les> skype is good
[21:17:37] <les> skype works on linux
[21:17:42] <les> I think I like it.
[21:19:57] <learath> heh. look into asterisk if you think you like skype
[21:20:19] <les> really
[21:21:06] <les> I am just setting up stuff like skype and paltalk so I don't have to get on planes as much
[21:22:29] <les> paltalk 8 just came out with much better quality video
[21:22:45] <les> tv quality instead of the previous 10 fps
[21:23:33] <les> will check out asterisk too
[21:37:57] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[21:42:21] <Jymmm> Gawd... Home Depot is useless...
[21:42:35] <dmess> Hi all...
[21:43:02] <Jymmm> howdy Mr dmess
[21:43:30] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: I dunno, It keaps that lot from growing weeds. :)
[21:43:43] <Jymmm> Phydbleep weed killer is cheaper
[21:44:33] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders when cradek usually shows up..
[21:45:08] <Jymmm> leave him a msg
[21:45:40] <Jymmm> oh, his nick isn't registered, nm
[21:46:37] <dmess> dmess pondering...What if I said Time = the rate of change of the Perspective
[21:49:29] <SWPadnos> which perspective?
[21:49:55] <dmess> the one your living right now..
[21:51:05] <SWPadnos> But - that would imply that Perspective is the integral of time (plus a constant), ie - doesn't depend on e.g. experience
[21:51:13] <dmess> every thought, word, and deed changes your P and deviates you from the answer
[21:51:17] <pfred1> SWPadnos why do you have a lot of different perspectives?
[21:51:42] <SWPadnos> I see many perspectives
[21:51:59] <pfred1> depending on what pill you pop?
[21:52:00] <SWPadnos> but the point is that we all experience the same time, but we don't all have the same perspecvive
[21:52:03] <dmess> ok your with me... but you live only 1
[21:52:28] <dmess> negative we DONT experience the same time...
[21:52:32] <SWPadnos> so Perspective would be integral of experience, which is a function of time
[21:52:52] <dmess> work with it...
[21:53:04] <pfred1> perspective raries with how close to death you think you are I have found
[21:53:15] <dmess> I�m of the thought that there is Mass � M � Energy � E �. And a Perspective � P
[21:53:17] <SWPadnos> If we're in the same room (or at the same altitude, for the most part), I'd wager that we do experience fundamentally the same time
[21:53:24] <pfred1> rather radically I may add
[21:53:45] <pfred1> not if one of us is having a stroke!
[21:54:17] <pfred1> don't go towards the light
[21:54:20] <dmess> no we havent gotten there thru the same experiensec...
[21:54:20] <SWPadnos> well - that would be experience, wouldn't it ;)
[21:54:36] <pfred1> it'd alter your perspective
[21:54:37] <SWPadnos> right - same time, different experience as a function of time
[21:56:14] <dmess> no...experience's must be a function of time as well
[21:56:32] <pfred1> I haven't found that to be the case
[21:56:58] <SWPadnos> [19:07]SWPadnosso Perspective would be integral of experience, which is a function of time
[21:57:20] <pfred1> SWPadnos ever siphon gasoline tripping on LSD?
[21:57:37] <SWPadnos> never used drugs, thank you
[21:57:48] <pfred1> well then you have a most limited perspective
[21:58:08] <SWPadnos> individual, not necessarily limited
[21:58:12] <pfred1> the himan mind's main function is to cut down on one's perspective
[21:58:21] <pfred1> or perceptions
[21:58:22] <dmess> P ��is like an old acid trip and WOULD/WILL stop ( =1 ) when it is made to do so.
[21:58:22] <dmess> And the only place else is � THE PARTY PLACE YOU LEFT �
[21:58:22] <dmess> Time �. A notion of something OTHER than THIS PERFECTION also being able to exist HERE �..NOW��� ( yeah they said lets screw it up�. )
[21:58:22] <dmess> AS IT WAS THOUGHT IT WAS DEED>>>>
[21:58:22] <dmess> And here we find
[21:58:32] <dmess> ourselves
[21:58:56] <pfred1> there's how many dimensions we can see 4
[21:59:00] <pfred1> there's what 14?
[21:59:14] <dmess> i see more than that..
[21:59:15] <pfred1> lets face it our perspective naturally sucks
[21:59:27] <pfred1> you see more than 4 dimensions?
[21:59:42] <dmess> not if we suddenly realize we create our own P
[22:00:24] <dmess> yes i do fred... i can see inverse time and stats in my melon...
[22:01:32] <pfred1> dmess take a picture of this "inverse time and stats" I'd like to see it too
[22:02:02] <pfred1> they can take a picture of hallucinations
[22:02:38] <pfred1> subjects seem to be able to manifest them on their retnas
[22:02:44] <dmess> i've been working on the origin of it all for years...2 million kilometers in 5 yrs will make you think of alot of things..
[22:03:24] <pfred1> we all go 93 million miles every year even if we never get up and 24,000 miles everyday
[22:03:42] <dmess> what are your thoughts on drywall screws to the kneecaps...good one
[22:04:16] <SWPadnos> actually, closer to pi*93 million, or around 300 million miles/year
[22:04:58] <pfred1> yeah and so many people feel like they're going noplace all the time strange huh?
[22:05:35] <SWPadnos> I guess they just don't have the right perspective :)
[22:05:43] <dmess> but its elliptical... so we actually speed up and slow down along the way... i feel that sometimes...
[22:06:08] <dmess> talk about ACCELERATION
[22:07:04] <pfred1> we're wired not to precieve the inconsequential
[22:07:41] <pfred1> although a popular misconception is that what we "see" is what "is"
[22:09:05] <pfred1> like for instance i find it hard to wrap my mind around the fact that matter is bound energy I simply don't see solid objects that way
[22:09:49] <les> I don't have a problem with that concept
[22:10:05] <pfred1> les but does stuff glow like it's about to explode?
[22:10:19] <pfred1> no a piece of wood looks like a hunk of wood
[22:10:45] <pfred1> on a similar vein most of the wood is hollow!
[22:10:51] <pfred1> but it sure looks solid
[22:11:13] <les> hmmm no...and it is hard to imagine that there is enough energy in your body to vaporize the earth
[22:11:21] <les> but the math convinces me
[22:11:34] <dmess> and Uranium is a matte light grey rock too
[22:11:42] <pfred1> yeah but it still doesn't make a rock look anything more than just a rock to me or what it really is
[22:12:23] <dmess> les.. your the math guy in here right??
[22:12:26] <pfred1> that and then there's the spectrum chart that one always get ms
[22:12:40] <pfred1> gets me even
[22:12:44] <les> well I only had a couple courses in modern physics so I am no expert
[22:13:06] <dmess> ok... i see...
[22:13:09] <pfred1> yeah you drive and fly how good at physics could you possibly be? :)
[22:13:16] <Jymmm> les did you get thru thermal dynamics?
[22:13:35] <SWPadnos> Do you mean Thermodynamics?
[22:13:44] <les> haha
[22:14:04] <les> we akll have to take thermo but
[22:14:04] <Jymmm> SWPadnos I dont want a thermos you silly goose!
[22:14:24] <les> I also had to take some modern physics
[22:14:26] <pfred1> they don't make real thermos bottles anymore do they?
[22:14:32] <SWPadnos> Thermos does
[22:14:39] <Jymmm> not good ones... SS
[22:14:42] <pfred1> glass with vacuum?
[22:14:44] <Phydbleep> les: How many steps per rev for your drives if you use steppers?
[22:14:57] <pfred1> styrofoam thermos bottles suck
[22:15:13] <SWPadnos> Modern as in relativity, quantum physics, and the like, or modern as in quantum entanglement of photons?
[22:15:17] <les> If you just say "there is no ether" I used to be able to derive special relativity
[22:15:24] <les> steps?rev?
[22:15:28] <les> it depends
[22:15:50] <Jymmm> Hey.... they do --> http://www.thermos.com/thermos/cfm/prodDetail.cfm?pg=1&id=222&z=z
[22:15:50] <Phydbleep> les: Max then for the stuff you use.
[22:15:57] <dmess> special rel is easy dude.. ive done it...
[22:16:15] <pfred1> Jymmm yeah they're the only ones that work
[22:16:36] <les> I use servos. Servos have been the norm for industrial stuff for 20 years or so.
[22:16:38] <dmess> just say NO...
[22:16:51] <Jymmm> pfred1 I loved my SS one... had a handle, big cup, and a flip-up spout.
[22:16:58] <les> Special rev is not too hard
[22:17:15] <pfred1> europe is building a huge collider
[22:17:35] <Jymmm> pfred1 if it's not SS, forget it. the others are really really cheap. One drop and it's gone.
[22:17:37] <pfred1> they'll probably make something that'll suck up the planet or something
[22:17:37] <les> I have been to our biggest one
[22:17:56] <pfred1> the one in 3 states that we deep sixed?
[22:18:12] <les> no, the one near Chicago
[22:18:18] <pfred1> the one that mught have kept us competitive in pure science?
[22:18:33] <pfred1> but the bean counters were to oshort sighted
[22:18:46] <pfred1> CERN ?
[22:19:02] <dmess> i HAD to one day... There i was.. i though i was gonna DIE....140' up ... ON Tow... IN a thermal thats twisting my paraglider into a bag a drag...
[22:20:05] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep has not seen 'pure' science in this country in 20+ years.. 99.9% of it is how much money can we make off of this...
[22:20:08] <les> whoa
[22:20:21] <Jymmm> 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
[22:21:02] <Phydbleep> Jymmm: I was allowing for a 0.1% error. :)
[22:21:04] <dmess> so i thoght i could see me walking away from this mess.... and i did.. NO luck involved
[22:21:27] <les> I don't know. I had dinner with Leon Lederman Of fermilab once when I was in the Chicao chapter of the society of r&d directors
[22:21:28] <pfred1> luck is just not knowing all the data
[22:21:40] <les> chicago
[22:21:42] <les> heh
[22:21:54] <dmess> and if WE gould harness the remainin .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% and make it true... it would win over
[22:22:04] <les> I guess he discovered the top quark
[22:22:13] <Jymmm> dmess : "Please place your head firmly between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye"
[22:22:40] <Jymmm> dmess What, you think this is Star Trek or something!?!?!?!? =)
[22:22:46] <les> I never did science...just engineering
[22:23:05] <Jymmm> anyone remember "Mr Wizard" on tv?
[22:23:11] <les> sure
[22:23:17] <Jymmm> that was cool
[22:23:17] <pfred1> I got a book by him
[22:23:28] <dmess> yeah well the rec WAS still out for my BOUNCABILITY factor.. when it happened
[22:23:31] <pfred1> Mr. Wizard's Science Experiments
[22:23:32] <les> hell I remember howdy doody
[22:23:35] <pfred1> or some such
[22:23:45] <Jymmm> if it wasnt' for Mr Wizard, I wouldn't be the pyro I am today!
[22:23:54] <les> ha
[22:23:58] <dmess> Jy... not at all
[22:24:17] <les> I made gunpowder and rockets and such when I was a teen
[22:24:21] <Jymmm> Mr Green Jeans
[22:24:33] <pfred1> Jymmm this is for you http://www.armory.com/~spcecdt/pyrotech/doap/
[22:24:35] <Jymmm> les I've wanted to make gun powser
[22:24:48] <les> pretty easy
[22:25:05] <Jymmm> les how volitile during the process?
[22:25:23] <les> not much...you grind it in a ball mill
[22:25:31] <pfred1> don't people work gunpowder wet?
[22:25:39] <les> I shoot black powder guns a bit
[22:25:48] <dmess> look up the anarchists cookbook on googl... theres timers and everyting.
[22:25:53] <les> usually dry
[22:26:02] <pfred1> the anarchists cookbook is a scam
[22:26:13] <les> naw there are books on making gunpowder
[22:26:14] <Jymmm> dmess I tell ya what... you go order it for me and I'll pay you for it
[22:26:17] <les> google it
[22:26:33] <dmess> Les ever shoot a 30" longbol arrow out of a weak charg??
[22:26:43] <les> I just buy black powder now
[22:26:52] <les> no...
[22:26:59] <dmess> no its a d/l boy
[22:27:22] <Jymmm> dmess fien, you d/l it and then send it to me
[22:27:45] <les> I made some pretty good rockets though. We used "micrograin" ...zinc dust and sulphur
[22:27:52] <dmess> its a .txt file started way back... anyone remember Captain Crunch???
[22:28:02] <Jymmm> the ceral guy?
[22:28:12] <SWPadnos> that's Cap'n Crunch
[22:28:19] <pfred1> I talked to some guy who claimed to have put a rocket into orbit
[22:28:21] <les> You see back then The U.S. army published a book on how to make rockets
[22:28:23] <Jymmm> les ok, so what are the basic components?
[22:28:38] <les> what black powder?
[22:28:42] <Jymmm> yeah
[22:28:44] <dmess> Whistles....yeah.. the cerial guys whistle was the tole free tone for at&t i believe it was...
[22:29:07] <les> 75% potassium nitrate
[22:29:14] <les> 15% charcoal
[22:29:21] <les> 10% sulfur
[22:29:41] <pfred1> Jymmm what you really want is TNT
[22:29:59] <Jymmm> is it potassium nitrate or ammonium nitrate that's used for bombs? (iirc the later)
[22:30:07] <dmess> no.... not on a nice old weapon
[22:30:18] <Jymmm> pfred1 nah, where's teh fun it that?
[22:30:36] <Jymmm> I really just want to make fireworks =)
[22:30:39] <dmess> ammonium nitrate... fertilizer and diesel fuel...
[22:31:07] <Jymmm> ammonium nitrate, citric acid and disel
[22:31:09] <pfred1> Welcome to the Pyro Purity Test! http://www.armory.com/~spcecdt/pyrotech/pyrotest.html
[22:31:14] <les> ammonium nitrate Is a high explosive that detonaes
[22:31:16] <dmess> i mined for 5 yrs and used all of that on a daily basis.. :
[22:31:23] <les> black powder just burns
[22:31:39] <les> detonates
[22:31:47] <pfred1> dmess you'd do well on the test then
[22:32:22] <dmess> AMMEX... you blow it in with an air hose... looks like loose styrofoam beads..
[22:32:37] <les> For rockets we looked for high specific impulse....BP and similar are very poor
[22:32:49] <Jymmm> oh man, I forgot all about flash powder
[22:32:50] <dmess> i was known as the MASTER of disaster.... FIRE in the hole
[22:32:57] <les> need very low molecular weight
[22:33:04] <dmess> mess is makin muck..
[22:33:11] <Jymmm> flash paper is very very cool
[22:33:15] <les> lithium nitrate and aluminum are common
[22:33:24] <les> used in the shuttle srbs
[22:33:57] <dmess> i like mag as a solid fuel ...
[22:34:02] <les> remember...I am an aerospace engineer by education.
[22:34:31] <pfred1> in another chan they're all into making thermite
[22:34:38] <pemmet> hio
[22:34:38] <les> "rocket science"?
[22:34:39] <dmess> les... im workin on the l/g for the new fx7
[22:34:47] <pemmet> does anyone know who created the BDI's?
[22:35:02] <dmess> no one will admit to it
[22:35:07] <les> paul corer
[22:35:08] <pemmet> i want to drop a name to give some credit in my report...
[22:35:11] <pemmet> hehe :P
[22:35:13] <les> corner
[22:35:14] <pemmet> really?
[22:35:15] <pemmet> cool
[22:35:17] <les> he is here
[22:35:19] <Jymmm> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When friends see you running away from something, do they drop everything and run away too without asking questions?
[22:35:20] <les> somewhere
[22:35:24] <dmess> yes... P
[22:35:25] <pemmet> yea, but is he awake?
[22:35:29] <paul_c> * paul_c runs like the wind
[22:35:37] <les> haha
[22:35:47] <pfred1> pemmet I hear this guy is responsible http://website.lineone.net/~nashtheslash/index1.htm
[22:35:47] <pemmet> coolness..
[22:35:55] <pemmet> * pemmet waves at paul as he fades into the distance
[22:36:09] <dmess> i have a t shirt.. im a bomb tech... if im running... keep up....
[22:36:19] <pemmet> hahaha
[22:37:59] <Jymmm> Oh man, that question is just too funny...
[22:38:24] <Jymmm> no questions asked... jusr run as fast as you can!
[22:39:27] <les> I just shoot black powder in my civil war pistols
[22:39:42] <les> and I am working on a Hawken rifle too
[22:39:49] <dmess> ppl who know me .. have Perspective of the CHITE of lived thru... my dad says my cat had kittens and im workin on their lives... ; )
[22:39:52] <les> kinda fun
[22:40:24] <dmess> we just shoot them on new yrs eve... ; )
[22:41:52] <les> I counted about 20 kittens from stray cats here last year
[22:42:02] <les> I don't know where they all go
[22:42:35] <les> away I guess or I would be up to my knees in cats
[22:43:34] <les> anytime in the summer there are kittens somewhere in the barn
[22:46:13] <les> I only have one cat...and he has one pet chicken.
[22:47:15] <les> my cat is from chicago...and he is 16 years old.
[22:47:57] <les> And he really does have this one chicken that follows him everywhere
[22:48:08] <les> looks REALLY silly
[22:49:26] <dmess> les send me that pic... my daughter dont believe me... ; )
[22:49:37] <les> can you dcc?
[22:49:42] <dmess> yes
[22:49:48] <les> ok sending
[22:51:20] <dmess> any better??
[22:52:15] <les> see?
[22:52:29] <dmess> that so cool.... ; )
[22:52:45] <les> It was a good shot
[22:52:53] <les> took it a few days ago
[22:53:15] <les> they sleep together on the porch
[22:53:18] <dmess> wow your grass is green... ; )
[22:53:28] <les> yup real green
[22:53:32] <dmess> mine is still brown
[22:53:32] <les> spring
[22:53:56] <dmess> yup..penguins are mating
[22:54:02] <les> heh
[22:54:34] <dmess> brb
[22:55:47] <Jymmm> les me too, I'm not sure if I can dcc though
[23:01:55] <pfred1> The soul has no time for technology.
[23:02:03] <paul_c> les: Put it on your web site..
[23:04:06] <les> I will...that was a lucky shot I guess
[23:04:45] <les> dcc to jymmm...
[23:05:40] <Jymmm> ooops, hold on a sec...
[23:05:52] <les> k
[23:07:45] <Jymmm> try one more time please
[23:07:50] <les> k
[23:09:10] <Jymmm> cancel. I see the request but think it's being blocked. I'll wait till you post it
[23:10:59] <les> ok
[23:11:34] <les> I tried to put in on the blog but it seems to be broken
[23:12:06] <les> web server has phpblogger but it is screwed up
[23:12:24] <Jymmm> dont ya hate it when that happens
[23:12:31] <les> yeah.
[23:13:28] <les> can't seem to get my mic to work on skype today either
[23:13:53] <les> was trying to set up some comms tho shanghai
[23:15:01] <les> I use line in from a mixer on the card
[23:15:10] <les> skype does not like that
[23:15:16] <Phydbleep> c/me goes "Woohoo!"
[23:15:20] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep goes "Woohoo!"
[23:15:26] <pfred1> no mic in?
[23:15:30] <les> ? why?
[23:15:38] <les> yes have mic in
[23:15:41] <Jymmm> les muteded ?!
[23:15:44] <Jymmm> muted
[23:15:51] <pfred1> what sound driver?
[23:15:55] <dmess> * dmess says why
[23:15:56] <Jymmm> try other channels too
[23:16:09] <Phydbleep> "Woohoo!" I just scored enough 12mm rubber matting to floor the shop. :)
[23:16:21] <pfred1> les is this in Linux or Windows?
[23:16:22] <les> but I use line in froma professional shure mic and 267 mixer
[23:16:36] <dmess> yee haa... 12 mm underfoot
[23:16:42] <les> rubber matting is good
[23:16:59] <les> usually expensive though
[23:17:12] <dmess> my knees know rubber when it feels it
[23:17:29] <les> I need some
[23:17:33] <Phydbleep> les: I scored a bunch of free stuff... It's the remnants from a health club install. :)
[23:17:52] <les> my workers get tired from standing on the slab concrete floor
[23:17:55] <les> I do too
[23:18:09] <pfred1> bah piffle make you tough
[23:18:16] <les> heh
[23:18:24] <dmess> wooden platforms help a little..
[23:18:25] <Phydbleep> les: Check with the fitness equipment places.. That's where I scored this.
[23:18:50] <pfred1> yeah lots of them places scams they get a buncha memberships then skip town watch for that
[23:19:04] <les> cool
[23:19:14] <Phydbleep> They had a big pile of odd pieces outside that are perfect for walkways/mats.
[23:19:41] <les> we often spend a 10 hour day standing on hard concrete slab
[23:19:43] <pfred1> or people just into huge jigsaw puzzles
[23:20:00] <pfred1> put inserts into your shoes
[23:20:13] <les> yeah
[23:20:25] <Phydbleep> Invert gravity and work on the ceiling. :)
[23:20:28] <pfred1> really really good inserts
[23:20:49] <pfred1> be gelling like Magellen
[23:21:01] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep tries to remember where les is at.
[23:21:13] <les> I hire retired people for workers...thet need to be comfortable
[23:21:41] <pfred1> heh put hooks in the ceiling and hang them by their suspenders
[23:21:52] <pfred1> what do you mean you want to leave?
[23:21:57] <pfred1> hang around a little more!
[23:22:23] <Phydbleep> les: Where are you at? They're going to call me in a month or so when they do the yearly re-mat at one of the clubs..
[23:22:37] <dmess> we bought one dude WITH the machine....it was the ONLY machine he could run... we chased the NUTS contract cuz he knew that job... ; )
[23:22:38] <les> I am in extreme NE georgia in the mountains
[23:22:51] <pfred1> long as it isn't out of the Sweating to the Oldies room
[23:23:23] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep wonders what it would cost to get a pallet to les..
[23:24:10] <les> the old factories in chicago had end grain oak floors
[23:24:19] <les> kinda like butcher block
[23:24:40] <Phydbleep> * Phydbleep refuses to get a bunch of stamps, a huge stack of envelopes and a pair of scissors..
[23:24:53] <pfred1> is recycled carpet underpadding foam that expensive?
[23:25:08] <les> I don't know
[23:25:18] <dmess> WOW... i'll drive down for some floors... ; )
[23:25:19] <Phydbleep> This is the solid rubber running/exercise mats.
[23:25:20] <pfred1> you know that multicolored stuff?
[23:25:28] <les> yeah
[23:25:36] <pfred1> it's spongy
[23:25:44] <pfred1> be easy to pick up to clean too
[23:25:52] <les> I think machine oils would rot it
[23:25:54] <dmess> coolant might just EAT it though
[23:26:02] <Phydbleep> pfred1: It takes 3 or 4 layers of that to equal 1 layer of this..
[23:26:19] <pfred1> yeah but do you need all that cushioning?
[23:26:42] <dmess> YES
[23:26:46] <les> well I want my workers to be comfortable
[23:26:52] <Phydbleep> pfred1: the machine is bolted to the floor? YES.
[23:27:03] <les> not so comfortable that they get sleepy though
[23:27:05] <dmess> you havent got a cracked vert obviously..
[23:27:30] <pfred1> cracked vert?
[23:27:37] <les> no cracked vert...
[23:27:40] <dmess> vertebea
[23:27:49] <pfred1> god I hope not!
[23:27:55] <dmess> back...
[23:28:02] <Phydbleep> dmess: OW!
[23:28:05] <les> but sometimes I send a worker home to take a 1 hour catnap
[23:28:18] <dmess> c5 and l7&l8
[23:28:42] <pfred1> a quarter oz bag of crystal meth goes a long way towards greater productivity
[23:28:52] <les> hehi'll bet
[23:29:00] <Phydbleep> Ah.. The shooting numbness down the arms.. I know it well.
[23:29:00] <pfred1> and places do that
[23:29:01] <dmess> l's were from 18 yrs ago... C is from 3 yrs ago..
[23:30:05] <dmess> numbness is in my legs... was told to go pick a wheelchair i liked in 1988
[23:30:22] <les> I have a choice of either mexicans or retired people for workers hers
[23:30:31] <pfred1> you shooting for being the next Steven Hawkings?
[23:30:32] <dmess> but too dumb to lay down
[23:31:29] <dmess> no SH is in a legue of his own... but it might be an interesting Experience...to add to my perspective.
[23:31:37] <pfred1> when people say to me "oh my back hurts" my replys is "Oh, you mean it's not supposed to?"
[23:32:38] <dmess> My doc has the same C troubles as me... so when i go in .. its just a .. chat and drug swap...LOL
[23:32:44] <Phydbleep> pfred1: Haul my lathe 50feet by yourself and see how your back feels.
[23:32:50] <pfred1> pain it's all in your mind
[23:32:57] <pfred1> how heavy is your lathe?
[23:33:09] <dmess> nope mines in my back
[23:33:38] <dmess> chainblock and cables work for me...
[23:33:39] <Phydbleep> pfred1: 700+ for the lathe or the table.. Your nuts would be in your shoes...
[23:33:53] <pfred1> I move my 700 pound mill around
[23:33:57] <pfred1> but it's on casters
[23:34:21] <Phydbleep> This was all on dirt and up stairs.. By myself..
[23:34:33] <pfred1> oh i put it up onto it's stand myself
[23:34:44] <dmess> we pulled my buddy's forging hammer 45' off the truck & into the shop
[23:34:58] <pfred1> but i used a chain lift on a gantry
[23:35:36] <pfred1> I just dragged a 210 pound piece of reairoad track out of the mud the other day though
[23:35:40] <Phydbleep> I used a cherry picker (fold-up engine hoist) to get this one off the floor and onto the table.
[23:35:58] <pfred1> yeah for me engine hoist was out of the question no room for it
[23:36:05] <pfred1> so I made a gantry
[23:36:30] <Phydbleep> I went for the foldable so i could assemble it in place. :)
[23:36:39] <pfred1> it was a little spooky welding the stand i made for it being under it while it was hanging there
[23:37:18] <dmess> dont bee frightened little soldier ... just burn it
[23:37:23] <pfred1> my engine hoist isn't foldable but it's dissassemblable
[23:37:43] <pfred1> good thing because each piece seems to have good weight to it
[23:38:48] <Phydbleep> Now I've got to go unload all this matting out of the truck.. :\
[23:39:32] <dmess> plastic tarp on the bottom... tied to back shed... pull forward... unloaded... ; )
[23:39:56] <Phydbleep> No way to back up to it.. Wheelbarrow time.
[23:40:01] <pfred1> ot shed down one of the two
[23:40:57] <paul_c> Time for bed..
[23:41:07] <Phydbleep> G'nite paul_c :)
[23:41:59] <pfred1> man this is like the worst movie ever made
[23:50:48] <dmess> hey in my infinite stupidity.. i burned an iso of a dvd... but nere wont let me bun an image to dvd only cdr... why?? anyone have any ideas??
[23:51:06] <dmess> NERO
[23:51:58] <pfred1> dmess http://crashrecovery.org/oss-dvd/HOWTO-ossdvd.html
[23:53:48] <pfred1> quit fiddling around with Nero and use growisofs
[23:55:21] <dmess> but my 42 bdi installs killed my 2nd burner
[23:56:02] <pfred1> hmmm
[23:56:32] <pfred1> I have a new theory on computer hardware myself anymore now i buy the cheapest stuff I can my logic with this is as follows
[23:56:39] <pfred1> the cheapest must also be the best
[23:56:58] <pfred1> why is it the best? well they must be the best at making it if they can offer it at the lowest possible price
[23:57:12] <dmess> come frome the same chinese factory
[23:57:20] <pfred1> and hey if I'm wrong it's always cheap to replace :)
[23:57:34] <pfred1> but honestly it hasn't been the case
[23:57:47] <pfred1> I got the cheapest CD burner I could find and it kicks ass!
[23:58:04] <dmess> nothing cheap is good.. and nothing cheap is good
[23:58:18] <dmess> good is cheap...
[23:58:34] <pfred1> that hasn't been my experience i used to buy all Plextor drives this one'[s better than a Plextor
[23:58:53] <pfred1> this company used to make the drives for Plextor in fact
[23:59:15] <dmess> im going tobed... fingers are having an epileptic fit of sorts and my dylexia is kickin' in