#emc | Logs for 2005-03-23

[14:54:53] <rayh_> * rayh_ looking at changes to tkemc.
[14:57:25] <rayh_> Is that in a tag?
[14:57:33] <alex_joni> what?
[14:58:16] <rayh_> Your tickle changes?
[14:58:23] <alex_joni> nope
[14:58:29] <alex_joni> simply commited them
[15:00:46] <rayh_> I'm not seeing any changes to emc2 in src/emc/task at sourceforge.
[15:01:09] <rayh_> But maybe I've got it messed up...
[15:01:38] <alex_joni> well it's in tcl/tkemc.tcl
[15:01:45] <alex_joni> not src/emc/task
[15:07:36] <rayh_> wierd. It will not check out for me.
[15:07:46] <alex_joni> cvs up ?
[15:07:53] <rayh_> I can download it but ...
[15:07:58] <alex_joni> sure you're not having another branch ?
[15:08:26] <rayh_> nope.
[15:08:30] <alex_joni> what does emc2/CVS/Tag say ?
[15:09:17] <rayh_> no tag file
[15:09:26] <alex_joni> strange
[15:09:50] <alex_joni> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/emc/emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl?r1=1.2&r2=1.3
[15:10:29] <alex_joni> found a bug :(
[15:12:59] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl: fixed a bug introduced by i18n support
[15:13:17] <rayh_> There will be a problem with the /bin/emcsh
[15:13:28] <alex_joni> what kind of problem?
[15:13:54] <alex_joni> that's bin/emcsh I presume...
[15:15:06] <rayh_> In two but no where else.
[15:18:01] <SWPadnos> alex_joni: was the only change the removal of a space?
[15:18:01] <rayh_> We need to go through and handle the textvariables as well.
[15:18:14] <alex_joni> SWP : yes
[15:18:35] <alex_joni> but that space would have made tcl fail
[15:18:43] <SWPadnos> hmm - what bug does having the space introduce? (I know less about TCL than you, so go easy)
[15:19:04] <alex_joni> tcl doesn't assemble the strings if there's a space there
[15:19:30] <SWPadnos> OK - so that's supposed to be a single string, and causes an error because it wass two
[15:19:37] <alex_joni> right
[15:19:46] <alex_joni> I broke the original string in two
[15:19:58] <alex_joni> to be able to translate it..
[15:20:14] <alex_joni> rayh: feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
[15:20:27] <alex_joni> I just touched tcl the second time
[15:20:31] <SWPadnos> does it put a space between the two substrings, or does one or the other need a space there?
[15:20:41] <rayh_> uh... yea right!
[15:20:47] <SWPadnos> (sorry about the dumb questions - just curious)
[15:20:58] <alex_joni> SWP: I think you have a point there :)
[15:21:11] <rayh_> like I'm likely to correct anyone's coding.
[15:21:35] <alex_joni> at least the concepts ;)
[15:21:42] <alex_joni> you definately know more tcl than me
[15:22:13] <rayh_> there are several additional issues.
[15:22:20] <rayh_> proc toggleEstop {} {
[15:22:21] <rayh_> if {[emc_estop] == "on"} {
[15:22:21] <rayh_> emc_estop off
[15:22:21] <rayh_> } else {
[15:22:22] <rayh_> emc_estop on
[15:22:22] <rayh_> }
[15:22:23] <rayh_> }
[15:22:32] <alex_joni> that's ok...
[15:22:40] <alex_joni> because that doesn't really get displayed
[15:22:52] <rayh_> In this case, emcsh is returning "on" or "off"
[15:23:05] <rayh_> and it does get displayed as an item in the menu.
[15:23:43] <rayh_> proc toggleRelAbs {} {
[15:23:44] <rayh_> global coords
[15:23:44] <rayh_> if {$coords == "relative"} {
[15:23:44] <rayh_> set coords machine
[15:23:45] <rayh_> } else {
[15:23:45] <rayh_> set coords relative
[15:23:46] <rayh_> }
[15:23:47] <rayh_> }
[15:23:55] <rayh_> This is even worse.
[15:24:21] <alex_joni> I think you have done it right
[15:24:30] <alex_joni> go to line 64066
[15:24:33] <rayh_> because it is a variable value and a display variable
[15:24:41] <alex_joni> there's the actual display of ESTOP to the button
[15:26:30] <alex_joni> so the "on" / "off" is just internal (emcsh, and tkemc)
[15:26:36] <alex_joni> same with "relative"
[15:28:41] <SWPadnos> you'd (possibly) have to change some of those comparisons to $foo == [msgcat::mc "value"]
[15:28:54] <SWPadnos> (If I'm understandint Ray correctly
[15:28:56] <SWPadnos> )
[15:29:32] <alex_joni> SWP: don't think so
[15:29:40] <alex_joni> the translated stuff gets displayed
[15:29:50] <alex_joni> the stuff in english is the internal stuff
[15:29:56] <alex_joni> variables, and communication to emcsh
[15:30:01] <alex_joni> but.. I could be wrong
[15:30:05] <SWPadnos> I don't think so either, but that's what I'm reading :)
[15:30:19] <SWPadnos> (though I'm not looking at the file, only the changes and this chat :) )
[15:30:25] <alex_joni> heh
[15:31:30] <alex_joni> from what I see.. it works
[15:31:54] <rayh_> If the call to translate is only at the button, label, menu level...
[15:32:02] <alex_joni> rayh: yes
[15:32:43] <rayh_> * rayh_ get's a headache thinking through it.
[15:32:54] <alex_joni> heh.. I did too ;)
[15:38:13] <rayh_> set unitlabel [label $settings.unitlabel -textvariable unitsetting -width 6 -anchor e]
[15:38:36] <rayh_> pack $unitlabel -side left -padx 1m
[15:39:28] <rayh_> No that should be okay to change.
[15:39:38] <alex_joni> don't think mm gets translated otherwise in a different language ;)
[15:41:41] <rayh_> set toolsetting [emc_tool]
[15:41:52] <rayh_> This illustrates the issue.
[15:42:12] <rayh_> Because toolsetting is not only a lable.
[15:42:28] <rayh_> It is the name of a variable, and the name of a widget.
[15:43:45] <alex_joni> yeah.. but under toolsetting .. there's a number?
[15:44:26] <alex_joni> there are a few things that aren't done..
[15:44:49] <rayh_> Now we shouldn't care about using the number in any language.
[15:45:01] <alex_joni> I found "Status: idle"
[15:45:09] <alex_joni> idle comes from emcsh I think
[15:45:16] <rayh_> But it does illustrate how we tended to use some of these.
[15:46:28] <rayh_> the mini interface is probably much worse
[15:46:50] <anonimasu> iab..
[15:47:10] <alex_joni> rayh: I think even if only 95% of the strings can be translated that's ok
[15:47:32] <alex_joni> If somebody complains that he needs more strings translated.. we'll worry about it
[15:47:46] <rayh_> The only correct cure is to separate the displayed textvariable from the variable
[15:47:48] <SWPadnos> can TCL do associative arrays?
[15:48:57] <alex_joni> right
[15:49:01] <SWPadnos> nevermind - the answer is yes
[15:49:03] <rayh_> used to generate and control the widgets.
[15:49:09] <alex_joni> SWP: hope you're not asking me ;)
[15:49:16] <SWPadnos> heh :)
[15:49:21] <rayh_> Arrays are always paired.
[15:50:05] <SWPadnos> OK - there's a rarely occurring problem with this particular method of translation
[15:50:05] <rayh_> You can do lookups that way.
[15:51:32] <SWPadnos> if the translation file, or the LANG variable gets corrupted / changed / deleted while tkemc is running, then the translations will change, but only those that are redrawn - so you'll have a mix of the old and new versions
[15:51:53] <anonimasu> that's not really a problem :)
[15:52:02] <anonimasu> could be cute ^_^
[15:52:11] <SWPadnos> one way around this is to read all of the strings into an associative array, and just use array indexing for text lookup
[15:52:23] <SWPadnos> yeah - as I said, it's rare :)
[15:53:10] <alex_joni> SWP: I actually expect things get fishy when files get deleted
[15:53:12] <alex_joni> ;)
[15:53:22] <alex_joni> although.. that's not always the case
[15:53:36] <alex_joni> I just found out you can repartition your / partition
[15:53:43] <alex_joni> and linux keeps running ;)
[15:53:45] <SWPadnos> true - though you could have a problem based on file locking as well - editing the translations while running, for instance :)
[15:54:01] <anonimasu> alex_joni: yeah but you have to unmount it :)
[15:54:14] <anonimasu> if I remember correctly
[15:54:24] <SWPadnos> yeah - open files that get deleted are guaranteed to exist until they're closed, they just can't be opened again
[15:54:50] <alex_joni> nice
[15:54:59] <alex_joni> an0n: don't have to
[15:55:04] <alex_joni> just fdisk /dev/hda
[15:55:16] <SWPadnos> (the opposite of Windows, which is one reason why you have to reboot when you change anything)
[15:55:20] <anonimasu> alex_joni: what happens when you do change it, and write the changes..
[15:55:50] <alex_joni> nothing ;)
[15:56:02] <alex_joni> I was able to type "halt"
[15:56:08] <alex_joni> and it unmounted and stopped
[15:56:11] <rayh_> * rayh_ phone
[15:56:14] <SWPadnos> the partition table is only important when booting and mounting / unmounting partitions
[15:56:15] <anonimasu> hm what'd you do to your partition then?
[15:56:25] <alex_joni> well I deleted them
[15:56:30] <alex_joni> needed the HDD for smthg else
[15:56:46] <SWPadnos> deleting a partition in the table only changes the pointers, it doesn't change any of the partition data
[15:56:47] <alex_joni> and the DOS fdisk could not access it
[15:56:52] <alex_joni> SWP: yes
[15:57:06] <alex_joni> but try that on a doze
[15:57:36] <SWPadnos> if you re-fdisk, using the same partition settings you had before you foolishly deleted them :) , you'll have your data back (as long as you don't format them)
[15:57:49] <alex_joni> yeah...
[15:58:01] <alex_joni> and as long as you figure out the sizes you previously had
[15:58:03] <anonimasu> yep..
[15:58:08] <SWPadnos> rebooting can be a problem though :)
[15:58:18] <alex_joni> heh...
[15:58:30] <acemi> is there a way to restart the g code program automaticly? I want to run the same program continously
[15:58:32] <alex_joni> maybe using a start-up/recovery disk you can save the data
[15:58:46] <alex_joni> acemi: use a JUMP code
[15:58:57] <alex_joni> it's just beeing implemented
[15:59:00] <acemi> what is this?
[15:59:05] <SWPadnos> it's funny - I'm so used to programming embedded devices, that it's hard to remember that certain errors are really OK in a "larger" system, especially when they're recoverable.
[15:59:24] <alex_joni> acemi: there is work on the interpreter right now
[15:59:33] <alex_joni> to support loops, testing, etc
[15:59:34] <SWPadnos> (like the language changing during a run)
[15:59:39] <acemi> hmm OK
[15:59:49] <alex_joni> but probably it'll take a while
[16:00:22] <alex_joni> I think you could write a little program (that connects to EMC through NML)
[16:00:34] <alex_joni> and sends a restart when it has seen the program finished
[16:00:42] <alex_joni> but.. I might be wrong
[16:00:59] <alex_joni> and.. it wouldn't be very easy to figure out (easy to code, but hard to get right)
[16:01:50] <SWPadnos> there's an nml message to execute a line of G-Code - you can write a short program that reads the lines from a file, then just starts over when it hits EOF
[16:02:05] <acemi> a radio button (like video player repeat button) will be nice for the front ends
[16:02:38] <alex_joni> not many people do repeat the program.. do they?
[16:03:09] <anonimasu> hm, wont you get a nml message on M30
[16:03:09] <anonimasu> ?
[16:03:12] <alex_joni> acemi: submit a feature request..
[16:03:25] <alex_joni> an0n: what if it's M3 ?
[16:03:28] <alex_joni> or Mx
[16:03:39] <anonimasu> alex_joni: m30 tape rewind.. ;)
[16:03:46] <alex_joni> lol
[16:03:52] <anonimasu> I am serious..
[16:04:12] <anonimasu> :p
[16:05:35] <alex_joni> yeah.. and so is this article:
[16:05:40] <alex_joni> http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5630822.html?tag=nl.e589
[16:05:49] <anonimasu> alex_joni: how do you end your programs?
[16:05:58] <alex_joni> Ctrl-C
[16:06:08] <alex_joni> LOL
[16:06:28] <anonimasu> * anonimasu faints
[16:06:40] <anonimasu> cant you request the status of emc?
[16:06:49] <anonimasu> the "status: idle" thing
[16:06:49] <alex_joni> I did:
[16:06:57] <alex_joni> currently under development
[16:07:00] <alex_joni> LOLOLOL
[16:07:02] <anonimasu> and just run the prorgam again..
[16:07:44] <anonimasu> program..
[16:07:49] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[16:08:15] <alex_joni> an0n: did you read that paper?
[16:09:24] <anonimasu> yes
[16:09:56] <SWPadnos> take the number of days of vulnerability, divide by the company's net worth, and Windows wins every time
[16:10:18] <alex_joni> heh
[16:10:57] <anonimasu> ridiculous..
[16:11:04] <anonimasu> microsoft havent patched pptp yet..
[16:11:08] <anonimasu> and it's been around for years.
[16:11:54] <alex_joni> heh
[16:11:57] <alex_joni> yeah
[16:12:15] <alex_joni> Geschwindigkeits�bersteuerung
[16:12:38] <anonimasu> ?!
[16:12:51] <alex_joni> feed override
[16:13:00] <alex_joni> but looks/sounds fun.. doesn't it ;)
[16:15:41] <SWPadnos> that may not fit on a button :)
[16:16:21] <alex_joni> really?
[16:16:22] <alex_joni> :D
[16:17:11] <anonimasu> yeah
[16:22:36] <SWPadnos> at least you don't have to translate "floccinaucinihilipilification"
[16:24:20] <alex_joni> floccinaucinihilipilifikation
[16:24:35] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:24:55] <SWPadnos> it means "the estimation of something as having no value"
[16:25:12] <paul_c> 'bout nowt
[16:25:39] <anonimasu> oh I've read about that..
[16:25:47] <SWPadnos> actually, "little or no value" - but whatever, it's useless
[16:27:17] <alex_joni> SWP: tcl does the reading internally
[16:27:25] <alex_joni> during startup it reads the messages
[16:27:41] <alex_joni> I just changed some values while tkemc was running, and the GUI didn't change
[16:27:50] <alex_joni> I needed to restart tkemc to get them to load
[16:27:56] <SWPadnos> all right - then everything's OK. :)
[16:28:00] <alex_joni> yeah
[16:28:16] <alex_joni> actually tcl reads a dir I supply
[16:28:22] <alex_joni> and reads ALL *.msg from there
[16:28:26] <SWPadnos> eek
[16:28:28] <alex_joni> I think it loads them
[16:28:34] <alex_joni> and remembers them
[16:32:17] <anonimasu> brb
[17:11:26] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/po/ro.msg: added a few more messages
[17:13:01] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/po/de.msg: german translation of tkemc messages
[17:16:17] <alex_joni> strange...
[17:16:26] <alex_joni> one CIA-message seems to be missing :)
[17:17:40] <alex_joni> anyways...
[17:17:44] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is going home
[17:17:47] <alex_joni> bye guys
[18:08:04] <anonimasu> brb..
[18:26:10] <robin_sz> meep!
[18:27:00] <SWPadnos> meep---meep----meep-mop-a-lu-la
[18:27:10] <robin_sz> today, I shall try one last time to build something under mingw32
[18:27:39] <robin_sz> this "build it on linux, run it on wondows" thing ... it sounds good
[18:27:54] <robin_sz> but so far, unsuccesful
[18:30:07] <robin_sz> perhaps, as I try, if I just recite "pain is the cleanser, pain is the cleanser" I'll feel better about it.
[18:32:24] <SWPadnos> "fear is the mind-killer"
[18:58:41] <robin_sz> under debian I can install mingw32, but not compile the fox toolkit
[18:59:00] <robin_sz> under linux .. I can compile fox, but not build mingw32
[18:59:26] <robin_sz> first compile your cross compiler
[19:02:02] <robin_sz> hmm, perhaps I'll try with gcc-2.91, as 2.95 seems dodgy in places
[19:14:20] <Jymmm> G'Morning Folks!
[19:14:31] <robin_sz> good evvening
[19:15:01] <robin_sz> damn, this compils slooooowwwllly
[19:15:31] <Jymmm> robin_sz: I told ya to get rid of that XT
[19:15:52] <robin_sz> XT?
[19:16:29] <Jymmm> 4.77 MHz CPU
[19:16:41] <Jymmm> 8086
[19:18:33] <Jymmm> Heh, I still have a working 486SX35 aroudn here somewhere
[19:18:36] <Jymmm> 25
[19:20:23] <alex_joni> g'evening
[19:20:25] <Jymmm> alex_joni!
[19:20:31] <alex_joni> hey Jymmm
[19:20:57] <alex_joni> smthg up?
[19:21:31] <Jymmm> When you folks clamp a piece to your mill, how do you prevent the cutter from mucking up your table?
[19:21:55] <robin_sz> ok, so I compled the cross-compiler
[19:22:05] <Jymmm> particularrly flat stock or sheet
[19:22:08] <robin_sz> I now have i386-mingw32msvc-gcc etc
[19:22:22] <Jymmm> ming?
[19:22:35] <alex_joni> mingw
[19:22:47] <robin_sz> so where do I get cross-make from?
[19:22:50] <Jymmm> Must be a different ming than I'm thinking
[19:22:56] <alex_joni> robin: what do you wanna compile?
[19:23:08] <robin_sz> some windows stuff ;)
[19:23:17] <alex_joni> right ;)
[19:23:23] <alex_joni> depends on the Makefile you use
[19:23:26] <robin_sz> the G2002 stuff
[19:23:30] <alex_joni> right
[19:23:43] <alex_joni> make target=... ?
[19:23:50] <robin_sz> hmmm
[19:23:55] <alex_joni> arch= ?
[19:24:00] <robin_sz> are you familair with this stuff? mingw32?
[19:24:08] <alex_joni> not really
[19:24:14] <robin_sz> oh ;(
[19:24:43] <robin_sz> I have a Makefile.win
[19:24:58] <robin_sz> and chould do cross-make -f makefile.win, apparently
[19:25:08] <alex_joni> right
[19:25:09] <robin_sz> assuming I had a cross-make script.
[19:25:13] <alex_joni> heh
[19:25:16] <robin_sz> which I don't
[19:25:19] <alex_joni> if not.. build one ;)
[19:25:46] <robin_sz> yeah, you cannot begin to believe how little clue I have as to what might be in it
[19:26:22] <jepler> you don't need a special "make" for a different target. Maybe this cross-make sets the environement variables like CC to point to the cross compiler?
[19:27:43] <alex_joni> http://www.nanotech.wisc.edu/~khan/software/gnu-win32/mingw-cross-howto.txt
[19:28:02] <robin_sz> jepler: could be, could be ...
[19:28:45] <alex_joni> robin: there's a script
[19:28:46] <alex_joni> http://jrfonseca.dyndns.org/projects/gnu-win32/documentation/cross/
[19:28:59] <alex_joni> this automates the cross compile process
[19:29:16] <robin_sz> no it doesnt
[19:29:40] <robin_sz> that automates getting, building and installign mingw32
[19:29:44] <robin_sz> doen that already
[19:30:02] <alex_joni> right
[19:30:05] <robin_sz> I have a working set ...
[19:30:46] <alex_joni> I'd use the following:
[19:30:55] <alex_joni> make TARGET=mingw32 whatever
[19:31:15] <alex_joni> in the dir of the project you need to build
[19:31:25] <robin_sz> hmm
[19:31:41] <alex_joni> and CC=$(TARGET)-gcc
[19:31:52] <alex_joni> but that should exist in the makefile
[19:31:59] <alex_joni> if it's done for mingw
[19:32:09] <robin_sz> I have a seperate Makefile.win
[19:32:38] <alex_joni> anywhere on the net?
[19:32:41] <robin_sz> # This is window build. use command 'cross-make -f Makefile.win'
[19:32:41] <robin_sz> # where 'cross-make' is your cross-make script installed when you built the cross-compiler.
[19:32:43] <alex_joni> for me to look at?
[19:32:51] <alex_joni> ahh
[19:33:01] <alex_joni> xmingw32.sh
[19:33:08] <robin_sz> alex_joni: yeah sure .. yahoogroups -> geckodrive -> files >
[19:33:15] <alex_joni> # Creates scripts to facilitate the use of the cross compiler toolchain
[19:33:15] <alex_joni> scripts: xmingw32.sh xmingw32.bat
[19:33:15] <alex_joni> xmingw32.sh: xmingw32.sh.in
[19:33:15] <alex_joni> sed -e s%@target@%$(TARGET)%g -e s%@prefix@%$(PREFIX)%g $< > $@
[19:33:31] <robin_sz> hmmm
[19:34:11] <alex_joni> robin: what file?
[19:35:14] <robin_sz> G2002 umm
[19:35:15] <robin_sz> err
[19:35:25] <robin_sz> g2002_alpha_3.tgz
[19:39:54] <robin_sz> * robin_sz tries the build and install makefile that alex suggested, just in case ...
[19:41:08] <robin_sz> I've been beating my head on this for days ...
[19:44:28] <alex_joni> robin: found cross-make (I think)
[19:44:29] <alex_joni> http://basic.mozillanews.org/clanlib/mingw.html
[19:49:00] <robin_sz> ahh
[19:49:09] <alex_joni> what?
[19:49:16] <robin_sz> ahh thanks :)
[19:49:41] <alex_joni> works?
[19:50:01] <robin_sz> wait .. installing
[19:56:09] <robin_sz> seems to do something
[19:56:23] <alex_joni> might even be the right thing...
[19:56:25] <alex_joni> *g*
[19:56:33] <robin_sz> oK, going to try and cross-configure and make the fox toolkit
[19:56:49] <alex_joni> nice
[19:57:08] <alex_joni> robin: this alpha_3 file..
[19:57:18] <robin_sz> yeah?
[19:57:21] <alex_joni> it's only an addition to the main one?
[19:57:53] <robin_sz> hmm? no ..
[19:57:58] <robin_sz> oh, its the GUI stuff
[19:58:04] <robin_sz> theres the controller stuff as well
[19:58:13] <alex_joni> ahh.. because some stuff seems to be missing ;)
[19:58:23] <alex_joni> like: #include "rs274ngc_errors.h"
[19:58:38] <robin_sz> ah yes, they were in alpha_2 or someting
[19:58:43] <robin_sz> I grabbed them
[19:58:50] <robin_sz> I cna succesfully build for linux
[19:59:15] <alex_joni> nice
[19:59:28] <robin_sz> theres a .zip wit all the dynamic C for the rabbit too
[20:04:40] <robin_sz> * robin_sz tries again ..
[20:05:03] <robin_sz> with a cross-configure first this time
[20:05:28] <alex_joni> well... no-one said building stuff is easy
[20:05:30] <alex_joni> :D
[20:05:36] <robin_sz> so ...
[20:05:39] <alex_joni> look at people building houses ;)
[20:05:40] <robin_sz> imagine im stupid
[20:05:50] <robin_sz> ok, got that?
[20:05:53] <alex_joni> aunt tillie around?
[20:05:54] <robin_sz> right ..
[20:06:09] <robin_sz> now .. suppose I couldnt be arsed cross-compiling
[20:06:14] <alex_joni> she ain't got no chance in cross-compiling :D
[20:06:18] <robin_sz> and just wanted to build on windows
[20:06:18] <les> les is now known as aunt
[20:06:27] <alex_joni> lol
[20:06:29] <aunt> oops haha
[20:06:30] <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as tillie
[20:06:36] <aunt> let me get that right
[20:06:41] <tillie> what?
[20:06:44] <robin_sz> I have msvc somewhere
[20:06:48] <aunt> aunt is now known as aunt_tillie
[20:06:58] <robin_sz> robin_sz is now known as alex_joni
[20:07:05] <tillie> tillie is now known as robin_sz
[20:07:12] <Jymmm> * Jymmm is now known as Jymmm
[20:07:13] <alex_joni> now the fun starts :)
[20:07:19] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:07:25] <aunt_tillie> I have no idea what you guys are talkin about
[20:07:32] <robin_sz> now.. this cross-configure doesn't seem to work
[20:07:32] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
[20:07:36] <MrAsshole> top this!
[20:07:40] <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
[20:07:44] <aunt_tillie> haw
[20:07:54] <aunt_tillie> aunt_tillie is now known as les
[20:07:57] <les> ho
[20:08:02] <robin_sz> hoho
[20:08:07] <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as random
[20:08:28] <les> like random house the publisher
[20:08:32] <robin_sz> robin_sz is now known as A_J
[20:08:39] <random> no .. its configured and building fox
[20:08:44] <les> It's fun to be on spring break
[20:08:45] <random> random is now known as robin_sz
[20:09:26] <robin_sz> if I manage to build a GUI exe for doze on linux, I'll have a beer to celebrate :)
[20:09:45] <anonimasu> ^_^
[20:09:46] <A_J> A_J is now known as alex_joni
[20:10:22] <robin_sz> hey, I made a power saving mod to my debian box by accident
[20:10:27] <alex_joni> -_^
[20:10:33] <robin_sz> I moved some wires will installing a drive
[20:10:44] <robin_sz> and disconnected this silly little fan on the CPU
[20:10:55] <robin_sz> saved 2W at least
[20:11:01] <alex_joni> no it's not that noisy
[20:11:01] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:11:08] <robin_sz> quite
[20:11:14] <robin_sz> its amazingly quiet now
[20:11:17] <alex_joni> lol
[20:11:23] <alex_joni> you can even hear it fry
[20:11:23] <robin_sz> cheaper to run too
[20:11:24] <alex_joni> :D
[20:11:43] <robin_sz> the voltage regs unsodered themselves from the mobo and dropped off :)
[20:12:01] <alex_joni> running on unregulated power?
[20:12:02] <alex_joni> :D
[20:12:19] <robin_sz> I think the term is "fuxxored"
[20:13:03] <alex_joni> anyways..
[20:13:15] <alex_joni> as nice as it is to chat with you.. I gotta get some sleep
[20:13:21] <robin_sz> 'k
[20:13:25] <alex_joni> .. long day ..
[20:13:30] <robin_sz> with sparks?
[20:13:38] <alex_joni> I missed the sparks today
[20:13:45] <robin_sz> good move
[20:13:49] <alex_joni> yeah
[20:13:57] <alex_joni> had enough sparks lately
[20:14:04] <robin_sz> filthy dirty sparks
[20:14:14] <alex_joni> not dirty
[20:14:17] <alex_joni> but BRIGHT
[20:14:20] <alex_joni> :)
[20:14:21] <robin_sz> if I NEVER see plasma dust again, it will be too soon
[20:14:31] <alex_joni> I'm getting a nice robot soon
[20:14:43] <alex_joni> 2 x 600 Amps welding power sources
[20:14:44] <robin_sz> will it wash dishes?
[20:14:47] <robin_sz> mmm ...
[20:14:50] <robin_sz> tasty.
[20:14:53] <alex_joni> yeah
[20:15:02] <Jymmm> will it make beer?
[20:15:09] <robin_sz> one of those forehand/backhand welders?
[20:15:12] <alex_joni> I wonder who'll want to be there when it starts
[20:15:15] <alex_joni> nah.. Tandem
[20:15:18] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:15:20] <alex_joni> 2 wires in one torch
[20:15:21] <robin_sz> thats what I meant
[20:15:24] <alex_joni> lol
[20:15:30] <alex_joni> that's a new one ;)
[20:15:41] <robin_sz> well .. thats what it does
[20:15:46] <robin_sz> at the same time
[20:15:53] <alex_joni> the 600 Amps power sources does pulses up to 1200 Amps
[20:15:58] <robin_sz> ooh
[20:16:00] <robin_sz> tasty
[20:16:01] <alex_joni> I wonder how that sounds ;)
[20:16:06] <alex_joni> or feels
[20:16:08] <alex_joni> or looks
[20:16:15] <robin_sz> thats what .. 1/2" or more in single pass?
[20:16:24] <alex_joni> depends on speed..
[20:16:29] <alex_joni> and shape of the weld
[20:16:37] <robin_sz> spray mode too I guess
[20:16:38] <alex_joni> but.. the pass can't be a lot bigger
[20:16:50] <alex_joni> robin: neither spray nor short-arc
[20:16:52] <alex_joni> pulsed
[20:16:57] <robin_sz> oh.
[20:16:59] <alex_joni> I don't do DC welding
[20:17:02] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:17:04] <robin_sz> thats different huh?
[20:17:20] <alex_joni> it's a lot nicer.. once it's set up properly
[20:17:25] <robin_sz> right
[20:17:30] <robin_sz> I have 3 welders
[20:17:39] <alex_joni> you can go from 90 Amps to 600 Amps
[20:17:41] <robin_sz> a Murex 500A transmig
[20:17:48] <alex_joni> murex?
[20:17:53] <alex_joni> never heard of them ;)
[20:18:19] <robin_sz> a Miller Syncrowave tig .. 500A cont, 750A max
[20:18:22] <alex_joni> you don't have that shitty transfer zone like on dc-MIG (where you can't weld)
[20:18:30] <robin_sz> right
[20:18:36] <alex_joni> that's a yummy tig
[20:18:41] <robin_sz> and a little lincoln portable
[20:18:48] <robin_sz> yeah, the tig is nice
[20:18:53] <alex_joni> and miller have very good power sources
[20:19:04] <robin_sz> yeah, but heavy on input current
[20:19:20] <robin_sz> its 415V single phase
[20:19:23] <alex_joni> bad ratio?
[20:19:28] <alex_joni> single phase?
[20:19:37] <robin_sz> well 415 3 pahse right?
[20:19:45] <alex_joni> right
[20:19:47] <robin_sz> this sits across two phases
[20:19:54] <alex_joni> right
[20:20:02] <robin_sz> say red, yellow. blue is not used
[20:20:06] <alex_joni> I was just gonna ask.. single phase is 230
[20:20:13] <alex_joni> between two phases you have 400
[20:20:22] <robin_sz> 415 in the uk
[20:20:24] <robin_sz> but yeah
[20:20:33] <alex_joni> same sht
[20:21:25] <SWPadnos> alex_joni: are you wondering how that phase relationship works?
[20:21:44] <alex_joni> SWP: how do you mean that?
[20:22:16] <SWPadnos> well - I couldn't tell what you were going to ask - (about 7 lines above this)
[20:22:52] <SWPadnos> whether it was a specific thing about connecting your welders or about 3-phase in general
[20:22:54] <alex_joni> heh.. I was going to ask how is single-phase 415
[20:23:07] <alex_joni> but robin already answered that
[20:23:09] <SWPadnos> ah :)
[20:23:13] <alex_joni> so I didn't ask ;)
[20:23:20] <alex_joni> it wasn't single-phase
[20:23:24] <alex_joni> but two-phase ;)
[20:23:41] <SWPadnos> well - there's no such thing as 2-phase, but that's OK ;)
[20:23:49] <robin_sz> ;)
[20:23:54] <alex_joni> 2/3 phase :D
[20:23:55] <robin_sz> I know what he means though
[20:24:06] <SWPadnos> heh - I think we all know what he means
[20:24:48] <robin_sz> whatever, it pulls a LOT of current on 2 pahses
[20:25:53] <SWPadnos> plus, it unbalances the load to the 3-phase supply
[20:25:56] <robin_sz> it has crater fill, pulse modes etc, AC, DC,
[20:26:02] <robin_sz> HF start
[20:26:04] <robin_sz> etc etc
[20:26:14] <robin_sz> nice welder ... but expensive to buy
[20:26:20] <robin_sz> �100 ;)
[20:26:46] <alex_joni> 100??
[20:26:51] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:27:02] <alex_joni> darn cheap
[20:27:07] <robin_sz> I went to an auction at a beer barrel plant
[20:27:14] <alex_joni> nice
[20:27:14] <robin_sz> aluminium casks ...
[20:27:23] <robin_sz> this was one of 40 such machines
[20:27:32] <alex_joni> I'd buy them all
[20:27:43] <robin_sz> first few went for �500
[20:27:54] <alex_joni> that's ok too
[20:27:56] <robin_sz> by the time tehy got to no 20, it was 100 :)
[20:28:17] <robin_sz> by the time they got to no 30, it went up again :)
[20:28:35] <alex_joni> heh.. seems you nailed it
[20:28:45] <robin_sz> yip
[20:28:57] <robin_sz> two watercooled torches and a pedal too
[20:31:55] <robin_sz> coo, built fox
[20:32:03] <robin_sz> building g2002 :)
[20:32:10] <alex_joni> robin: cool ;)
[20:32:40] <robin_sz> undefined reference to `_gethostname@8'
[20:32:41] <robin_sz> hmm
[20:34:43] <SWPadnos> why would a G200X need to find a hostname?
[20:35:15] <robin_sz> it had an ethernet instead of USB mode too
[20:35:22] <SWPadnos> ah
[20:35:43] <SWPadnos> of course, you then need to include / link TCP/IP libraries
[20:35:44] <alex_joni> think that's 'it will have'
[20:35:53] <robin_sz> no ...
[20:36:06] <robin_sz> Steve uses ethernet, because he has an ethernet Wabbit
[20:36:23] <SWPadnos> (the other Steve)
[20:36:30] <alex_joni> heh
[20:36:44] <robin_sz> yeah
[20:36:45] <SWPadnos> I have no wabbit
[20:36:55] <robin_sz> * robin_sz has several
[20:37:11] <SWPadnos> I talked to one of the engineers that designed the rabbit chip at ESC
[20:37:32] <robin_sz> yeah?
[20:37:43] <robin_sz> Steve Hardy is working onthe new rabbit right now
[20:37:48] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, they had no 3600/3700 modules there - only the 2xxx and 3200 range
[20:37:55] <SWPadnos> designing the chip?
[20:38:01] <robin_sz> apparently
[20:38:13] <SWPadnos> I wonder if I talked to him and didn't notice?
[20:38:19] <robin_sz> could be :)
[20:38:41] <SWPadnos> Is he an older guy? (like at least late 50's, maybe mid-60's)
[20:38:53] <robin_sz> no eyed deer
[20:39:02] <SWPadnos> well - that's helpful :)
[20:39:13] <robin_sz> hard to tell on email :)
[20:39:26] <SWPadnos> yeah - ain't it great?
[20:39:34] <robin_sz> sure is
[20:39:58] <robin_sz> bet you never guessed Im actually an 18yr old blonde preppy girl did ya?
[20:40:11] <SWPadnos> actually, I did
[20:40:15] <alex_joni> ditto
[20:40:16] <robin_sz> dang
[20:40:27] <alex_joni> your cover is blown
[20:40:42] <Jymmm> s/blonde/dirty blonde/ s/18/81/ s/girl/skag/ s/preppy/skank/
[20:40:43] <SWPadnos> there's a great video of a "real-life" chat room on the net somewhere - have you guys seen it?
[20:40:58] <robin_sz> nah ..
[20:42:08] <alex_joni> right...
[20:42:15] <alex_joni> well g'night blondie ;)
[20:42:18] <SWPadnos> I'll try to find it
[20:42:21] <alex_joni> night SWP
[20:42:26] <SWPadnos> night
[20:50:52] <robin_sz> blinkin flip ... its built an exe ...
[20:54:29] <robin_sz> now to see if it runs :)
[20:55:10] <SWPadnos> or does anything useful :)
[20:55:37] <robin_sz> I shall submit it to my usual QA process
[20:55:53] <robin_sz> "HEY, it compiles! .. ship it"
[20:55:56] <SWPadnos> "run it and shut down if smoke comes out"
[20:57:09] <robin_sz> strange as it may seem, on of the good tings about C++, is that as long as you have not doe anyting too stupid, if it does compile, it stands a fair chance of working at least close to waht was intended
[21:04:32] <robin_sz> * robin_sz falls over backwards
[21:04:37] <robin_sz> it lives!
[21:05:01] <SWPadnos> yep - especially if you turn on all warnings :)
[21:05:05] <SWPadnos> cool!
[21:05:51] <SWPadnos> heh - found the video: http://www.kvikmynd.is/video/LifidAirkinu_512k.wmv
[21:08:46] <robin_sz> oh, on doze
[21:09:04] <robin_sz> unless Xine plays wmv
[21:09:36] <SWPadnos> yeah - sorry
[21:09:59] <SWPadnos> It works on my machine, so it's probably using an older codexc (I rarely update Media Player)
[21:10:49] <jepler> it works on my mplayer / linux
[21:11:53] <jepler> though I got bored pretty quickly
[21:13:06] <SWPadnos> it is a pretty funny example of how chat and reality have totally separate standards of poiteness
[21:13:11] <SWPadnos> politeness
[21:51:11] <A-L-P-H-A> afternoon y'all!
[21:52:05] <SWPadnos> Hiya
[21:52:25] <A-L-P-H-A> SWPadnos, heh... wanna hear something silly. Someone just told me last night, that if I pushed a variable, and use it it, and then pop it back, it'd be making that variable as a private register, instead of a global! [I never even thought of that]
[21:52:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I felt so dumb. :) heh
[21:52:53] <SWPadnos> huh?
[21:52:59] <A-L-P-H-A> it was so simplistic, that I should have though of it myself.
[21:53:03] <SWPadnos> you push a register so you don't screw up the contents
[21:53:09] <A-L-P-H-A> EXACTLY.
[21:53:18] <SWPadnos> it isn't a local variable - it's the opposite :)
[21:53:32] <SWPadnos> (ie - don't trash the global variable)
[21:53:35] <A-L-P-H-A> nono, I push it, so I can use it as a local, and pop it to restore it.
[21:53:52] <A-L-P-H-A> something I never thought of.
[21:54:16] <SWPadnos> right - but the value it has when you re-enter the function will be random
[21:54:39] <A-L-P-H-A> that's fine... I'll init the variable with what I need. :)
[21:54:55] <SWPadnos> OK - I guess that is pretty basic ;)
[21:55:04] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... trying to figure out what's organic in my room... there's a single fruit fly in here. :( so gross
[21:55:12] <A-L-P-H-A> maybe I'm roiting away
[21:55:17] <SWPadnos> banana peels?
[21:55:23] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate bananas.
[21:55:23] <SWPadnos> apple cores?
[21:55:25] <A-L-P-H-A> there's nothing in here.
[21:55:30] <A-L-P-H-A> oh... beer bottles.
[21:55:34] <SWPadnos> pop-tart innards
[21:55:34] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll take those up.
[21:55:40] <SWPadnos> nevermind - flies wouldn't eat that
[21:55:59] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/qemcstatus.hh: File changed. New revision:qemcstatus.cc
[22:02:21] <robin_sz> we had flies 2 years ago in a room
[22:02:35] <A-L-P-H-A> and?
[22:02:36] <A-L-P-H-A> :)
[22:02:41] <robin_sz> every day there were like 1000 bluubottles, covering the windows
[22:02:52] <A-L-P-H-A> what are bluubottles?
[22:03:01] <robin_sz> bluebottles
[22:03:08] <robin_sz> a fly
[22:03:19] <A-L-P-H-A> eew. 1000?
[22:04:04] <robin_sz> at least
[22:04:17] <robin_sz> something in the roofspace must have died
[22:04:21] <robin_sz> never did find it
[22:04:25] <A-L-P-H-A> lovely.
[22:04:32] <robin_sz> sorta stopped after 10 days or so
[22:05:03] <robin_sz> Im so impressed I can cross-compile for doze on linux
[22:05:09] <robin_sz> thats amazing :)
[22:05:49] <SWPadnos> better than Cygwin, because you can actually run from a Windows command prompt
[22:05:56] <robin_sz> yep
[22:06:03] <robin_sz> all I needed was the exe
[22:06:12] <robin_sz> no messing about installing crap
[22:06:55] <robin_sz> I never got the idea of cygwin
[22:07:20] <robin_sz> like, if you need it, just install linux and have done
[22:12:47] <SWPadnos> well - I'm using Cygwin/X to do EMC development with my Windows machine
[22:13:05] <SWPadnos> It keeps me from having to use the 800x600 screen on that box
[22:13:23] <SWPadnos> (I get to use the triple 1280x1024 monitors on my main machine)
[22:40:50] <les> hmm back
[22:40:58] <les> anyone home?
[22:42:04] <SWPadnos> yes, I'm home
[22:42:28] <les> I am already getting bored with my spring braek
[22:42:38] <les> break
[22:42:42] <les> heh
[22:42:45] <SWPadnos> bummer
[22:43:10] <les> I may blast down to the old school for a while
[22:43:13] <les> UF
[22:43:24] <SWPadnos> UF?
[22:43:34] <les> University of Florida
[22:43:40] <SWPadnos> Ah - sunny Fla
[22:43:48] <SWPadnos> I'll be there in a few weeks for vacation
[22:43:57] <les> it's about 500 miles south of here
[22:44:08] <SWPadnos> it's about 1500 miles south of here :)
[22:44:12] <les> heh
[22:44:49] <les> I might go to a golf school there
[22:45:07] <SWPadnos> for some reason, that doesn't sound like fun to me :)
[22:45:07] <les> and goof around in aero engineering a bit
[22:45:10] <robin_sz> spring break huh?
[22:45:15] <les> yeah
[22:45:31] <robin_sz> my mate is away for 2 days on a flight ...
[22:45:46] <robin_sz> in a nde Dimona diesel ...
[22:45:50] <robin_sz> new
[22:45:55] <les> I'm here to tell you...the girls at UF were great
[22:45:56] <les> cool
[22:46:00] <robin_sz> diesel ...
[22:46:05] <robin_sz> thats no sparks
[22:46:20] <les> just adiabatic compression
[22:46:23] <robin_sz> so, hes only 100 miles away ...
[22:46:32] <robin_sz> landed to fuel and stuff
[22:46:39] <robin_sz> taxying and it stops
[22:46:51] <robin_sz> seems the ECU glitched
[22:47:10] <robin_sz> get that ... a diesel that needs electronics to make it run
[22:47:14] <les> It would be strange not to check magnetos in runup
[22:47:26] <robin_sz> yep
[22:47:34] <robin_sz> whatvever ...
[22:47:46] <robin_sz> in a light aviation plane
[22:47:58] <robin_sz> the engine should continue even if the electronics screw up
[22:48:05] <les> I was in Aero at UF but I see it has merged with Mechanical
[22:48:16] <les> curious to see how that is going
[22:49:20] <les> I worked mostly on the space shuttle fuel tank while there
[22:49:29] <les> and taught a bit of calculus
[22:50:18] <robin_sz> les: so you are the guy that designed to o ring seals then huh?
[22:50:40] <les> no I had nothing to do with seals or foam!!!
[22:50:41] <les> haha
[22:51:05] <les> I just did flow studies at low mach and high angles of attack
[22:51:39] <les> real high
[22:51:44] <les> like 20 degrees
[22:54:12] <les> If I go back there I will still oogle the pretty girls but am just about too old
[22:54:20] <les> no surprises either...
[22:54:31] <les> it's hot...they don't wear much
[23:01:53] <les> I was thinking about that diesel plane
[23:02:25] <les> I'll take engines that run if you turn off both the battery and alt master switches
[23:02:41] <les> like night BFRs
[23:02:45] <les> go up...
[23:02:56] <les> you are in class echo airspace
[23:03:21] <les> examiner turns off both master switches...
[23:03:34] <les> and says "LAND"
[23:03:39] <les> somewhere
[23:04:13] <les> no radios
[23:04:18] <les> no gps
[23:04:21] <les> no vor
[23:04:24] <les> nothing
[23:05:39] <SWPadnos> sounds fun
[23:05:47] <les> heh
[23:05:52] <les> yeah
[23:05:59] <les> no landing lights either
[23:06:02] <SWPadnos> not that I've ever piloted anything
[23:06:08] <SWPadnos> (other than a video game)
[23:06:14] <Jymmm> les: stick goes forward. what's the problem?!
[23:06:33] <SWPadnos> stick forward = crash
[23:06:35] <les> MS flight simulator is quite accurate
[23:06:48] <les> stick forward = fast
[23:06:51] <SWPadnos> How about Descent:freespace?
[23:06:55] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: He said LAND, never mention all in one piece =)
[23:06:57] <les> stick back= slow
[23:07:05] <SWPadnos> true enough
[23:07:12] <les> unless you are under the lift curve
[23:07:24] <SWPadnos> bail out, parachute down - the plane "lands" somewhere
[23:07:39] <les> heh what parachute?
[23:08:17] <SWPadnos> well - that would be a problem
[23:08:46] <SWPadnos> how about the one you packed in your flight plan case (instead of the flight plans)
[23:09:07] <les> oh flight plans...ewww
[23:10:08] <les> I remember on My student long solo cross country I blasted down to UI in Champaign
[23:10:20] <les> the girls were cute there
[23:10:32] <les> I was flirting a lot when I gassed up
[23:10:38] <SWPadnos> University == prime age :)
[23:10:52] <les> forgot to close that leg of my flight plan
[23:10:56] <les> took off
[23:11:02] <les> Then remembered
[23:11:23] <les> I was about 10 minutes from them sendind search and rescue
[23:12:25] <les> I called up center and said "I'm sorry ...student pilot...the girls were to cute and I got dumb"
[23:12:44] <les> They said " ok well don't do that again"
[23:12:57] <les> let me off
[23:13:01] <SWPadnos> "and what are their phone numbers?"
[23:13:35] <les> I didn't get any... that was 300 NM from my home airport
[23:13:35] <Jymmm> Can I ask a silly/dumb question.... On a typical mill, the table is dovetailed and (from my understanding) there's an adjustable gib to be it taught/aligned. Hows does that work for linear motion, and isn't something like that used in cnc routers by chance?
[23:14:08] <Jymmm> s/and isn't/and why isn't/
[23:14:18] <SWPadnos> the gib is a wedge shaped piece of metal.
[23:14:23] <les> cnc routers typically use recirculating ball linear slides
[23:14:31] <les> lower friction
[23:14:38] <les> because they go so fast
[23:15:22] <Jymmm> and you can't get those speeds from a cnc mill?
[23:15:24] <les> gibbed ways would have too much friction
[23:15:26] <SWPadnos> when adjusted, it keeps one face parallel to the dovetail that it mates with - so it's just used to close up the gap between the slide and the way
[23:15:47] <SWPadnos> also, 8 foor gibs would be a pain to manufacture
[23:15:50] <SWPadnos> 8 foot
[23:16:03] <les> at 600+ ipm gibbed dovetail slides are not a good choice
[23:16:04] <Jymmm> is a gib just a strip of stock?
[23:16:14] <les> yeah
[23:16:24] <SWPadnos> a strip of wedge stoock, that fits into a specially shaped cavity, yes
[23:16:33] <SWPadnos> stook stoook stook
[23:16:36] <les> yup...scraped in
[23:16:42] <Jymmm> scraped?
[23:16:52] <SWPadnos> scraping == flattening to a high precision
[23:16:57] <Jymmm> ah
[23:17:03] <les> right
[23:17:51] <Jymmm> you guys have any detailed photos of the gib in-place?
[23:18:03] <SWPadnos> If I had a digital camera, I could take some
[23:18:09] <SWPadnos> but you only get the end view
[23:18:10] <les> a tapered gib?
[23:18:12] <Jymmm> * Jymmm just having a hard time picturing it in operation
[23:18:30] <les> I have some on some machines
[23:18:39] <les> but they aren't visible
[23:18:46] <SWPadnos> go here for close-ups of Bridgeport wayshttp://www.sover.net/~swp/mill/
[23:18:56] <SWPadnos> http://www.sover.net/~swp/mill/
[23:19:18] <gezr> a gib isnt always taperd however, some machines use a flat piece with several set screws to set the proper tension
[23:20:07] <les> right
[23:20:12] <gezr> for a high velocity machine you want bearing slides of some sort
[23:20:17] <les> my mill has flat gibs
[23:20:24] <les> grinder has tapered
[23:20:54] <les> router has 45 mm recirculating ball ways
[23:21:00] <Jymmm> gezr: Yeah, I understand, I'm just trying to come up with some ideas, but I have so far seems "huge" for the task.
[23:21:01] <SWPadnos> Hmmm - my Bridgeport will have roughly 180IPM rapids - do you think I need to do anything about the mechanics (other than installing Ballscrews, which I've already done)?
[23:21:14] <SWPadnos> since it was designed as a manual machine
[23:21:31] <gezr> more ridigity comes from a machine with gibs and solid iron construction(this can be argued however, and some bearing slides under load, move the motion off the balls, its an expensive configuration)
[23:21:36] <les> 180 is more than enough
[23:21:56] <SWPadnos> yeah - I'm not even sure I want the screws rotating that fast (900RPM)
[23:22:04] <gezr> SWPadnos : install a way lube system
[23:22:12] <les> and for that you will be really winding up 5 tpi ballscrewes
[23:22:12] <SWPadnos> It's got one-shot lube
[23:22:31] <SWPadnos> I can add a powered lube easily - it's a Bijur reservoir
[23:22:34] <gezr> then get something to one-shot it for you, incase you forgit
[23:22:44] <gezr> get
[23:22:44] <SWPadnos> solenoids are my friend :)
[23:22:50] <les> I have Bijur units on some machines
[23:22:58] <les> gawd they are expensive
[23:23:05] <SWPadnos> well - it came with the machine
[23:23:11] <les> good
[23:23:18] <SWPadnos> (along with a 6" Kurt vise and 10 or so collets)
[23:23:26] <les> very good
[23:23:31] <SWPadnos> for $1800
[23:23:42] <les> good deal
[23:24:06] <SWPadnos> yep - it was close enough for me to drive out and get it, chrome ways, 2J vari-speed head, etc.
[23:24:30] <les> A Bijur auto lube unit is close to $400
[23:24:37] <SWPadnos> same with the vise
[23:24:41] <Jymmm> you guys speak of 5tpi screws.... now I'm wondering if I'll get enough speed out of 1/2-10 Acme =(
[23:24:42] <les> right
[23:24:59] <SWPadnos> you need horsepower in the head to use speed while milling
[23:25:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos (cnc router)
[23:25:26] <SWPadnos> yes - your point?
[23:25:44] <Jymmm> SWPadnos thought you were talking a mill
[23:25:47] <les> 5 TPI is typical for light industrial metalworking machines
[23:26:07] <les> can be a but too fine for a wood router
[23:26:08] <SWPadnos> well - a mill and a router are largely the same thing in this context
[23:26:31] <les> Mine is a compromise...It does metal or wood
[23:26:40] <SWPadnos> if you're only cutting soft materials, the head power requirements will be lower
[23:26:48] <les> I use 5 TPI...
[23:27:02] <les> but may increase the pitch soon
[23:27:07] <les> like 2.5
[23:27:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos but jsut jogging I don't want it to take 10 minutes either.
[23:27:19] <les> I am limited to about 600 ipm now
[23:27:21] <SWPadnos> note that an acme screw requires roughly double the force to move the load
[23:27:37] <les> compared to?
[23:27:41] <SWPadnos> so a 10TPI acme puts the same force on the table as a 5TPI ballscrew
[23:27:44] <SWPadnos> (roughly)
[23:28:13] <SWPadnos> but takes twice as long (double the revolutions) to do it
[23:28:23] <gezr> SWPadnos : that doesnt sound right
[23:28:29] <SWPadnos> no - it doesn't
[23:28:32] <les> For efficiency I use 90% for ballscrews
[23:28:40] <les> 50 for acme
[23:28:41] <SWPadnos> right - and 50% for acme
[23:28:45] <SWPadnos> 90/50 = 1.8
[23:28:56] <SWPadnos> (or 50/90 = 55.555)
[23:29:03] <gezr> SWPadnos : that efficiency, not how much force on the table
[23:29:05] <les> yup
[23:29:21] <SWPadnos> right - put 10 oz-in into the screw, and you get force into the screw
[23:29:32] <gezr> 10oz-in's worth
[23:29:54] <SWPadnos> the linear force on the table will be half with a 5TPI acme screw vs. a 5TPI ballscrew
[23:29:57] <gezr> friction, and other stuff takes away from that, but its a function of the effieciency I believe
[23:30:17] <les> With 1200 in oz I get about 2200 lb force
[23:30:56] <les> about
[23:31:04] <SWPadnos> you get double the linear force with a 10TPI screw vs. a 5TPI screw
[23:31:12] <les> right
[23:31:16] <gezr> les : am I wrong to think that just because effiency is near 45% lower then a ballscrew, that the power requirements do not need to be increased?
[23:31:26] <gezr> by 45%?
[23:31:33] <les> They do need to be increased
[23:31:49] <SWPadnos> so a 10TPI acme screw gives roughly the same linear force on the table as a 5TPI ballscrew
[23:31:51] <gezr> yeah, but its not a direct relationship to the effiency is it?
[23:32:09] <les> Lets call it double the power required for acme vs ballscrew
[23:32:18] <SWPadnos> mostly - the table friction resists linear force
[23:32:26] <gezr> les : is that the case?
[23:32:48] <SWPadnos> the efficiency is how much linear force you get relative to what you should theoretically get
[23:33:07] <les> well in a Bridgeport machine almost all the torque is needed to overcome friction
[23:33:17] <les> example:
[23:34:00] <les> In my machine if the screws are unhooked you an easily move the 1000 lb gantry with your little finger
[23:34:03] <gezr> I see what im seeing, he is comparing a 10pitch to a 5pitch
[23:34:26] <SWPadnos> heh :)
[23:34:32] <gezr> thats what was getting me
[23:34:59] <SWPadnos> I was going to make the point that you need a bigger head and bigger motors to move faster, but also that the screw affects milling speed
[23:35:24] <les> Acme is typically not used in high speed machines because all that friction heats it up
[23:35:41] <les> not a problem in a Bridgeport or something
[23:35:42] <gezr> SWPadnos : well, 10tpi acme screw gives the same table force as a 5tpi ballscrew under the same in-lb input
[23:35:49] <Jymmm> les: I havne't been able to find a "cheap" alternative
[23:36:00] <SWPadnos> well - Jymmm wants a cheap, fast, powerful, quiet, small cnc router :)
[23:36:14] <gezr> 5/8 8 acme
[23:36:15] <Jymmm> SWPadnos I never said quiet =)
[23:36:16] <les> And I want to market one
[23:36:25] <les> but cheap is relative
[23:36:26] <SWPadnos> well - I added that because you're in an apartment :)
[23:36:36] <Jymmm> SWPadnos ah, fair enough.
[23:36:38] <les> to me it means under $10,000
[23:36:40] <SWPadnos> cheap for Jymmm is 1/10 cheap for les
[23:36:49] <les> haha
[23:36:52] <SWPadnos> 1/20
[23:36:52] <Jymmm> yeah, what SWPadnos said!
[23:37:02] <Jymmm> les whole thing under $500
[23:37:19] <SWPadnos> right - about the cost of one servo on a real machine (a cheap servo)
[23:37:28] <Jymmm> yeah, what SWPadnos said!
[23:37:40] <gezr> SWPadnos : you see what im saying, it wasnt so much the force on the table and stuff, its what is turning the screw that matters, ball vs acme, the acme needs X more power
[23:37:53] <les> But...I'll bet you can make something that works from acme threaded rod, wood, surplus steppers and such for almosty nothing
[23:37:54] <SWPadnos> yep - that was my point
[23:38:13] <gezr> SWPadnos : dont look for apples in an oragen grove :)
[23:38:21] <les> heh
[23:38:22] <SWPadnos> that you can actually use smaller motors or get higher speed if you use a ballscrew rather than an acme
[23:38:27] <gezr> orange
[23:38:52] <SWPadnos> That would be like comparing .. oh, yeha ;)
[23:39:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos I understand that, thus my inquiry =)
[23:39:18] <gezr> Jymmm : I can promise you one thing, and this can be taken as gospil, if you buy inexpensive acme screws, the only screwing you will be doing is to yourself
[23:39:47] <Jymmm> gezr main reason?
[23:39:58] <gezr> ive bought a lot of cheap acme for various work related tasks, and its not good for motion stuff
[23:40:16] <les> Well we don't use acme screws, steppers, and such for industrial machines
[23:40:16] <gezr> Jymmm : there is no care given to its manufacturing process
[23:40:20] <Jymmm> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMK3?PMK0NO=435178
[23:40:24] <les> but for hobby why not
[23:40:38] <gezr> Jymmm : acme is good to use, just pay for the good stuff
[23:40:55] <les> Just don't think you will make money with it
[23:40:59] <SWPadnos> those rods are used for things like the screw on a vise, I think
[23:41:07] <Jymmm> gezr my problem atm isn't so much the rod, as it is the ends and nut
[23:41:29] <gezr> I recently bought some 1/2 10 acme, I spent the next few hours after I got it, runing the nut up and down the shaft to get it to cleanly move, I was pissed, it was full of trash(metal fines)
[23:41:31] <Jymmm> as well as "linear bearings" of some sort for the rails.
[23:41:52] <gezr> Jymmm : you need to spend good money on classified acme rod, and get a matching nut
[23:41:57] <les> Jymmm need a buddy with a lathe REAL BAD
[23:42:09] <gezr> I offered to turn his ends for him
[23:42:11] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: you wanted a 4' x 2' table, right?
[23:42:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos yeha
[23:42:26] <gezr> he can have company of X ship the rods to me, ill do the work, then ship them to him
[23:42:28] <les> actually...send the damned things down here...I'll machine the ends gratis
[23:42:31] <SWPadnos> I don't think a 1/2" screw will work at any reasonable speed
[23:42:40] <gezr> les : I offered the same :)
[23:42:56] <les> after all I am on spring break
[23:43:05] <SWPadnos> it'll "whip" if you try to rotate it too quickly
[23:43:10] <Jymmm> But from what you all are saying, 1/2-10 isn't even thr right way to go.
[23:43:26] <les> for a router?
[23:43:27] <gezr> Jymmm : your choice of acme is fine, as you grow so will your machines, its a bit fine pitch thats all
[23:43:32] <SWPadnos> true - for several reasons
[23:44:15] <Jymmm> gezr: Ah. Well for a 1st machine, I hope it wont' be too bad.
[23:44:17] <gezr> Jymmm : you want to be able to quickly move the cutting tool through a wodden material, if it sits it will burn
[23:44:33] <les> yes
[23:44:50] <gezr> Jymmm : you want to be able to calculate where you want to make the sacrifice
[23:44:51] <les> at 20,000 rpm you need to go at least 100 ipm
[23:44:58] <Jymmm> Damn, and I was gonna buy a 1/2-10 acme tap
[23:45:06] <les> les and burn burn burn
[23:45:14] <les> less
[23:45:30] <les> heh
[23:46:16] <les> Jymmm use 5 pitch...you have two guys that will machine the things for you free...life is good.
[23:46:41] <Jymmm> les ty (you too gezr)
[23:46:59] <Jymmm> Now to find the stuff
[23:47:10] <les> MSC
[23:47:35] <Jymmm> k
[23:48:31] <Jymmm> les 5 pitch acme?
[23:48:41] <gezr> I dont think I have the spindle hole size to do really big stuff, maybe 7/8 inch max
[23:49:03] <les> I can do 1 3/8
[23:49:18] <les> but 1" on the 5c
[23:49:49] <les> 1 1/8 is max on 5c
[23:50:42] <les> what was your xyz travel Jymmm?
[23:51:01] <Jymmm> les x being 3-4'
[23:51:05] <Jymmm> y 2'
[23:51:14] <Jymmm> z 6"+
[23:51:20] <les> ok
[23:51:36] <les> you need 3/4 - 1 "
[23:51:56] <Jymmm> for the screw diam?
[23:51:58] <les> speed?
[23:52:15] <les> yeah major diameter
[23:52:35] <Jymmm> heh, they have 1/2"-2 acme rod
[23:53:14] <les> critical speed for 1/2 is a little dicey over 4'
[23:53:25] <gezr> 1/2 inch at 4 feet length is 88times diameter
[23:53:42] <les> 50:1 is about the limit
[23:53:49] <gezr> its not going to enjoy a torque load
[23:53:53] <les> right
[23:54:23] <gezr> youll have one side of the screw-nut tight, and the rest will flop around like a spagettie noodle
[23:54:35] <Jymmm> * Jymmm fire it off at top speed, hears motors screaming "HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" as it jogs across the table (and someone let the smoke out)
[23:54:51] <gezr> Ive seen a 4" dia ball screw do this on my machine at work
[23:55:00] <les> even 50:1 needs bearing support at both ends
[23:55:16] <gezr> and support in the middle
[23:55:42] <les> easier just to use fat leadscrew
[23:55:53] <gezr> or at a high rotational speed with nut at one end the rest will just bounce
[23:56:04] <les> right
[23:56:20] <gezr> ive seen that on a big machine, its not fun
[23:56:21] <Jymmm> ok, they have 3/4-5 and 1"-5
[23:56:37] <gezr> hmm, what about rack and pinion?
[23:56:39] <les> prob about the same price
[23:56:51] <les> if so use 1"
[23:56:52] <Jymmm> not to see the rape price on nuts/bearings
[23:57:04] <Jymmm> s/not/now/
[23:57:08] <gezr> les : what would a draw back be to rack and pinion?
[23:57:12] <gezr> besides backlash
[23:58:21] <les> Gezr: r&P Iis good but very epensive if low backlash
[23:58:48] <gezr> les : that would look sweet
[23:58:51] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: I have a precision ground ballscrew that may be good for your Z axis
[23:59:22] <les> ballscrews are good.