Back
[00:14:06] <Jymmm> cad a NiCad charger charge NiMh anyone know?
[00:14:09] <Jymmm> can
[00:21:11] <gezr> no
[00:21:27] <gezr> a NiMh charger should come with a switch to do NiCad
[00:21:46] <Jymmm> replacing battery pack on a hand-vac
[00:21:51] <Jymmm> s/on/in/
[00:22:04] <Jymmm> 3 sub-c's
[00:22:43] <Jymmm> and I aint paying $24 for a battery pack!
[00:22:56] <Jymmm> not NiCad anyway
[01:06:18] <klinkz> try to apt-get install cdxroast gave me an error ?? (i new to debian)
[01:08:55] <paul_c> xcdroast
[01:09:35] <robin_z> you can roast that annoying admin from cnczone too while you are on.
[01:09:36] <paul_c> Alternatively, use synaptic - You'll find it in the System menu
[01:10:41] <rayh> SWPadnos, Got the disks, Thanks.
[01:16:41] <SWPadnos> Cool - no problem :)
[01:17:01] <SWPadnos> I'll send a 4.20 disc, so we can see what 4.22 looks like :)
[01:18:29] <robin_z> actually, I just reallised .. cnczone does serve a useful purpose.
[01:18:32] <rayh> Always behind the curve, eh>
[01:18:56] <SWPadnos> The head of the curve is defined as "at least one step ahead of me"
[01:19:04] <rayh> * rayh is waiting for useful purpose statement.
[01:19:11] <robin_z> its a bozo magnet
[01:19:18] <rayh> Yea, and three or more ahead of me.
[01:19:20] <robin_z> it keeps all the bozos in one place
[01:19:29] <rayh> Not bad. I like that.
[01:19:34] <SWPadnos> "Bozo Bungee"
[01:19:46] <rayh> He asked if I wanted to be a major player there.
[01:20:34] <robin_z> he has a habit of posting "I just created a $foo group in cnczone.com" in every $foo group on yahoo groups
[01:20:42] <robin_z> and did you?
[01:21:00] <SWPadnos> I pity the $foo
[01:21:39] <pfred1> foo bar
[01:21:50] <rayh> I'm no foo
[01:21:59] <pfred1> are you a bar?
[01:22:28] <SWPadnos> that's "I aint no foo", don't you know no grammar?
[01:22:30] <rayh> Been to a few.
[01:22:52] <rayh> Sorry. My 4th grade education is showing through.
[01:23:29] <SWPadnos> yes - it's as though you actually had one. (you must be fairly old :) )
[01:24:03] <rayh> Way old.
[01:24:07] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:30:30] <klinkz> i try to make that F***ing xcdroast work and it gave me this localhost:/# xcdroast
[01:30:30] <klinkz> Xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server
[01:30:30] <klinkz> Xlib: No protocol specified
[01:30:31] <klinkz> Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: :0.0
[01:30:31] <klinkz> localhost:/#
[01:31:29] <klinkz> man win XP was way more easy than this linux thing
[01:34:52] <pfred1> klinkz no it isn't Linux is the way
[01:35:28] <gezr> klinkz : you are in X right?
[01:35:37] <pfred1> klinkz OK who are you logged in as trying to run xcdroast?
[01:35:44] <gezr> some things work in console some things run in X
[01:35:57] <pfred1> he's probably trying to su - root and run an X app in a user session
[01:36:18] <pfred1> and evne root can't coopt the X session for a graphical app
[01:36:55] <pfred1> which is a bit of a PIA actually there is a workaround for it but I can't think of it right now
[01:36:56] <SWPadnos> pfred1: What are you talking about? (that didn't make any sense to me)
[01:37:22] <pfred1> SWPadnos start X as a user then in a terminal su - root then try to start a graphical X app
[01:37:54] <SWPadnos> He's running BDI-4.18, so the default is a graphical login. I can log in as a user, then run as root all day on my install
[01:38:21] <SWPadnos> Though it does sound like there's no X server running (or the DISPLAY variable has been set incorrectly)
[01:38:22] <pfred1> you can run graphical apps in a user X session as root?
[01:38:31] <rayh> klinkz, You first need to start xcdroast as root and build a basic config that allows users to burn.
[01:38:49] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure what type of session I have when I log in using KDM
[01:39:00] <rayh> Then you can start it as a user, add the hd space you need and go to work.
[01:39:04] <pfred1> you're in X
[01:39:28] <SWPadnos> I know that - it's a question of whether it's a root session or a user session
[01:39:39] <pfred1> have them type whoami
[01:43:17] <rayh> SWPadnos, This a remote computer you are trying to run?
[01:43:28] <SWPadnos> I'm not the one trying - it's klinkz
[01:43:48] <rayh> Ah.
[01:43:50] <pfred1> they've been brainwashed by the borg from Redmond
[01:43:57] <SWPadnos> (things work fine for me, either on the local screen, or via Cygwin/X)
[01:44:12] <rayh> mak the klick be with you!
[01:44:34] <rayh> O darn my figers are doing their own thing now. Time to quit.
[01:45:16] <SWPadnos> I've had that problem for months - they finally fixed the downstairs heater today (guaranteeing an early spring)
[01:45:59] <rayh> Yep that'll do it.
[01:46:08] <rayh> Thanks I need some spring.
[01:46:30] <SWPadnos> yep - especially in Vermont, during the coldest January in recent history :)
[01:46:48] <SWPadnos> no problem - happy to help
[01:47:25] <pfred1> yeah bring the spring on
[01:48:05] <rayh> * rayh has some chores -- honeydo if you will.
[01:48:14] <rayh> Catch you all later.
[01:48:18] <pfred1> L8r
[01:48:22] <SWPadnos> see ya
[01:48:29] <Jymmm> rayh how many pages?
[01:48:31] <klinkz> rayh : ok i login as root (su) than i typed xcdroast and i got this localhost:~# xcdroast
[01:48:31] <klinkz> Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:
[01:48:31] <klinkz> localhost:~#
[01:48:53] <SWPadnos> klinkz: are you in a graphical environment, or a text mode when you do that?
[01:49:02] <pfred1> klinkz man the session is owned by the user no other user can run graphical apps in it!
[01:49:10] <klinkz> text mode
[01:49:22] <pfred1> xcdroast is a frigging graphical app
[01:49:34] <SWPadnos> OK - if there is no graphical environment running, then the first thing for you to do is type startx
[01:49:37] <pfred1> evne if you start it off a commandline!
[01:49:46] <klinkz> so what do i have to do
[01:49:50] <pfred1> man he's using kdm
[01:50:26] <SWPadnos> then click on the shell icon on the toolbar (looks like a mointor with a seashell in front of it, I think)
[01:50:26] <rayh> KDM should get a graphical login unless he's autostarting a user.
[01:50:28] <Jymmm> pfred1 (just curious) whats wrong with kdm?
[01:50:52] <pfred1> Jymmm it's not going to drop you into a console
[01:51:24] <Jymmm> pfred1 hmmmm, okey dokey
[01:51:25] <SWPadnos> klinkz: I just want to be sure - do you have any icons or any graphical stuff on your screen?
[01:51:52] <pfred1> you can't run graphical apps as another user in X unless you do something non trivial behorehand
[01:52:22] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ startx
[01:52:22] <klinkz> Using authority file /home/klinkz/.Xauthority
[01:52:22] <klinkz> Writing authority file /home/klinkz/.Xauthority
[01:52:23] <klinkz> X: user not authorized to run the X server, aborting.
[01:52:23] <klinkz> Couldnt get a file descriptor referring to the console
[01:52:23] <SWPadnos> I can run any applications as any user with my install, and I didn't do anything fancy - so let's start at ground zero, shall we?
[01:52:24] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$
[01:52:47] <klinkz> yes
[01:53:11] <SWPadnos> when you log in, do you get a graphical scren, or just a text prompt like "localhost login:")
[01:53:24] <klinkz> ihave icon and graph and stuff then i thit alt and F2 and type konsole
[01:53:42] <klinkz> graphical
[01:54:12] <SWPadnos> Do you hit ALT-F2 after logging in, or before you have typed a password? (or does it bypass the login automatically?)
[01:56:01] <SWPadnos> either ALT-F6 or ALT-F7 (I'm not sure which) will get you back to the graphical screen - try those and see what happens
[01:56:51] <robin_z> sounds like X is already running
[01:56:52] <pfred1> man if he wasn't confused before he got here he's sure as hell confused now!
[01:56:55] <klinkz> i type ALT-F2 get run command where i type konsole then i type in su and my pass
[01:57:25] <SWPadnos> Ah - OK.
[01:57:38] <klinkz> in in something all KDE 3.something
[01:57:38] <SWPadnos> Hold on one sec - I'm booting my machine
[01:58:07] <klinkz> ok...
[01:58:17] <robin_z> try typing xhost + first
[01:58:23] <robin_z> (worht a try)
[01:59:29] <klinkz> man this linux thing is hard .... BDI is gonna be hell
[01:59:48] <pfred1> klinkz Linux is not hard you're just being difficult
[01:59:49] <SWPadnos> Are you not running BDI right now? (I thought you installed earlier today)
[02:00:20] <pfred1> klinkz it's simple you can't su to another user and run graphical apps in X
[02:00:36] <SWPadnos> Yes, you can - I can on my machine
[02:00:36] <pfred1> well you can but that *IS* hard!
[02:00:55] <robin_z> surely xhost + gets around that?
[02:00:59] <pfred1> SWPadnos then someone has setup the deal where it is possible
[02:01:09] <SWPadnos> Nope - I did the setup myself
[02:01:12] <pfred1> normally it is not allowed
[02:01:18] <robin_z> surely xhost + gets around that?
[02:01:33] <SWPadnos> (echo echo echo :) )
[02:02:22] <SWPadnos> well - I can't run XCDRoast (yet) on the local screen, because it requires at least 1024x768 resolution
[02:02:51] <robin_z> for cds, I prefer Roxio
[02:04:00] <Jymmm> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[02:04:22] <klinkz> all this linux thing isn t helpping me to stop smoking (smoke a pack to day)
[02:04:25] <robin_z> works perfectly for me
[02:04:30] <Jymmm> man adaptec was such a pita
[02:04:55] <robin_z> klinkz: did you try typing xhost + first, as your normal user?
[02:05:12] <SWPadnos> well - XCDRoast runs fine when I use Cygwin/X and log in as a normal user (of course, I have no CDR on the EMC machine)
[02:05:14] <Jymmm> robin_z doe sit let you copy sub-channels too now?
[02:05:33] <robin_z> Jymmm: what is a sub-channel?
[02:06:02] <SWPadnos> the extra information, like track, index, etc.
[02:06:11] <Jymmm> robin_z: When you try to backup some cd's, it's one method they use to prevent making backups.
[02:06:41] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ xhost + first
[02:06:41] <klinkz> xhost: bad hostname "first"
[02:06:41] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ su -
[02:06:42] <klinkz> Password:
[02:06:43] <klinkz> localhost:~# xhost + first
[02:06:43] <klinkz> xhost: unable to open display ""
[02:06:43] <klinkz> localhost:~#
[02:06:55] <robin_z> sigh
[02:06:57] <SWPadnos> leave the weord "first" off the line
[02:07:00] <SWPadnos> word, that is
[02:07:15] <SWPadnos> just "xhost +" without the quotes
[02:07:33] <Jymmm> robin_z: I always stash my originals and work off the backups.
[02:07:48] <pfred1> yeah and keep that machine off a network
[02:07:56] <klinkz> localhost:~# xhost +
[02:07:56] <klinkz> xhost: unable to open display ""
[02:08:09] <Jymmm> robin_z great for DVD's. Give the kid(s) the copy and when the scratch it all to hell, you just make another one.
[02:08:13] <pfred1> export display=":0"
[02:08:36] <SWPadnos> OK - as pfred1 suggested, type whoami
[02:08:42] <robin_z> hes root
[02:08:45] <Jymmm> robin_z: A la PB&J on a dvd!!!
[02:08:55] <robin_z> the # on the prompt gives it away
[02:09:06] <Jymmm> whoami
[02:09:10] <SWPadnos> may not be - BDI sets things up so that the user created during install is auto-logged in
[02:09:18] <SWPadnos> true
[02:09:29] <robin_z> coo
[02:09:38] <Jymmm> klinkz enter in: whoami<enter>
[02:09:52] <klinkz> did the whoami said root
[02:10:03] <SWPadnos> well - he is now - there's a su command in there
[02:10:04] <Jymmm> robin_z 2pts
[02:10:10] <Jymmm> doh
[02:10:16] <Jymmm> robin_z -1pt
[02:10:19] <robin_z> Jymmm: bash: syntax error near unexpected token `<enter>'
[02:10:26] <Jymmm> lol
[02:10:30] <SWPadnos> OK - now, try to run xcdroast
[02:11:00] <gezr> it may be that that xcdroast may have its sticky bit set or something along those lines, im not sure but its installed as a special case in some applications
[02:11:14] <klinkz> localhost:~# xcdroast
[02:11:14] <klinkz> Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:
[02:11:14] <klinkz> localhost:~#
[02:11:19] <robin_z> no, you see when he started the seesion, he wasnt root
[02:11:26] <gezr> right
[02:11:28] <robin_z> so X is bound to his normal user
[02:11:41] <robin_z> so now he is root he cant get to it anymore
[02:11:45] <robin_z> he needed to type
[02:11:46] <SWPadnos> right - during the xhost + commands, he did an su
[02:11:57] <robin_z> he shoudl have done that BEFORE doing su
[02:12:14] <robin_z> so he should open another term and do the xhost + thing
[02:12:34] <Jymmm> why not change the perms ?
[02:12:35] <pfred1> he should just login to X as root
[02:12:35] <robin_z> or type exit in the current term to get back to normal user and then do the xhost + thing
[02:12:44] <pfred1> and be done with it!
[02:12:49] <SWPadnos> Out of curiosity, why would I have never had this problem (even though I have logged in as a normal user, run a konsole, done su, then run all sorts of apps as root)?
[02:12:52] <robin_z> Jymmm: doesnt work that way
[02:13:12] <pfred1> SWPadnos your system is setup to allow the display sharing
[02:13:23] <pfred1> it's a security risk normally
[02:13:24] <klinkz> ok new terminal i a user
[02:13:28] <Jymmm> ok, returning to rock
[02:13:32] <SWPadnos> My system is set up as a default BDI 4.18 installation
[02:13:42] <SWPadnos> (plus apt-get dist-upgrade)
[02:13:53] <robin_z> klinkz: so do the xhost + thing
[02:14:12] <gezr> I belive that .Xauthority is another way to fix it
[02:14:20] <gezr> but im not sure and I cant remember
[02:14:25] <robin_z> harder to do
[02:14:35] <robin_z> reuires cookies I think
[02:14:52] <gezr> yeah something along those lines
[02:14:55] <SWPadnos> I have Oreos
[02:15:07] <gezr> im going to check what xcdroast
[02:15:10] <gezr> 's perms are
[02:15:15] <gezr> I just apt-got them
[02:15:21] <robin_z> check all you like :)
[02:15:54] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ xhost + thing
[02:15:54] <klinkz> xhost: bad hostname "thing"
[02:15:54] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ xhost + first
[02:15:54] <klinkz> xhost: bad hostname "first"
[02:15:55] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ xhost + first
[02:15:55] <klinkz> xhost: bad hostname "first"
[02:15:56] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ xhost+first
[02:15:58] <klinkz> bash: xhost+first: command not found
[02:16:00] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$
[02:16:12] <klinkz> should i go su and try it ?
[02:16:20] <SWPadnos> JUST xhost +
[02:16:26] <SWPadnos> that's all, without hte JUST
[02:16:46] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$ xhost +
[02:16:46] <klinkz> access control disabled, clients can connect from any host
[02:16:47] <klinkz> klinkz@localhost:~$
[02:16:57] <SWPadnos> now xcdroast
[02:18:09] <robin_z> * robin_z gives up
[02:18:16] <robin_z> night guys ...
[02:18:20] <SWPadnos> hold on - we haven't heard back :)
[02:18:43] <robin_z> oh fun.
[02:18:47] <SWPadnos> see ya :)
[02:19:16] <klinkz> popup with something superuser must start adn configure xcdroat...
[02:19:57] <gezr> sudo xcdroast
[02:20:09] <gezr> do it that way and see if it works
[02:20:43] <gezr> thats a much safer way then using xhost +
[02:20:49] <klinkz> man now it my resolution can t go 1024X768
[02:20:53] <gezr> xhost can open a system up like a can of worms
[02:21:12] <SWPadnos> and you have an 800x600 LCD?
[02:21:16] <SWPadnos> (like me)
[02:22:22] <klinkz> yeah
[02:22:42] <klinkz> who do i uninstall xcdroast
[02:22:46] <SWPadnos> Well - then I'd say you need a different CD burning scheme :)
[02:22:54] <klinkz> yeah
[02:23:11] <SWPadnos> apt-get remove xcdroast
[02:23:21] <gezr> klinkz : did sudo xcdroast work?
[02:23:34] <SWPadnos> yes, but his screen resolution is too low to run it.
[02:23:51] <SWPadnos> there is a way of configuring it to run on lower resolution screens - don't remove it quite yet
[02:25:11] <SWPadnos> OK - try this: sudo xcdroast -n
[02:25:38] <gezr> yep, that overides the 800x600 forced exit
[02:25:53] <gezr> SWPadnos : good call, I didnt see that right off the bat
[02:25:55] <SWPadnos> which is actually a 1024x768 forcd exit these days
[02:26:23] <SWPadnos> (I just checked the manpages - I also have an 800x600 LCD :) )
[02:26:35] <gezr> I was reading myself
[02:26:37] <gezr> :)
[02:26:42] <gezr> hhahahahaa
[02:26:54] <SWPadnos> -i /resolution = fast search :)
[02:27:17] <gezr> I have forgotten a lot of fancy linux stuff
[02:27:48] <gezr> I hope that got him up and running
[02:27:50] <SWPadnos> I only remember a few things - mostly in less (-i disables case sensitivity, and / is search)
[02:28:15] <gezr> yeah, I do remember more, but not so much less
[02:28:21] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:28:49] <SWPadnos> whereas I remember lots of less, but not much more
[02:29:01] <klinkz> localhost:/home/klinkz# sudo xcdroast -n
[02:29:01] <klinkz> Xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server
[02:29:02] <klinkz> Xlib: No protocol specified
[02:29:02] <klinkz> Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: :0.0
[02:30:03] <SWPadnos> klinkz: you shouldn't do su first - you only need to use sudo if you are a normal user
[02:30:11] <gezr> oh man, I have to go to bed now, but keep at it
[02:30:20] <SWPadnos> (su sort of re-logs in as root, sudo does a command as root)
[02:30:29] <SWPadnos> night
[02:31:48] <klinkz> ok i in
[02:31:56] <SWPadnos> Cool.
[02:32:16] <klinkz> where do i change the resolution for 800X6OO
[02:32:24] <SWPadnos> I just hope it's usable at 800x600 :)
[02:32:30] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure - hold on a sec
[02:34:25] <pfred1> try xvidtune
[02:35:55] <SWPadnos> klinkz: You are running an LCD screen, correct?
[02:36:09] <klinkz> yeah !
[02:36:23] <SWPadnos> OK - so it's fixed at 800x600 resolution.
[02:36:23] <klinkz> LCD 800X600
[02:36:32] <klinkz> yeah
[02:36:36] <SWPadnos> you can switch xcdroast to fullscreen
[02:36:48] <SWPadnos> right-click on the title bar, select advanced, then fullscreen
[02:37:49] <pfred1> klinkz logout the normal user login to root account
[02:37:56] <SWPadnos> you'll need to use Alt-F3 to get that menu back while in xcdroast (then click advanced->fullscreen again to toggle it off)
[02:38:51] <klinkz> im gonna logout and login a root
[02:39:23] <SWPadnos> OK
[02:39:43] <SWPadnos> I'm gonna get to bed have fun roasting CDs :)
[02:39:57] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away
[05:00:08] <klinkz> does anyone know how to install the sound ?
[05:01:34] <klinkz> i install Xine to view a movie but i dont have any sound i thing that BDI didn t install the pilot ?
[05:03:02] <pfred1> klinkz BDI isn't really a multimedia focused distribution
[05:03:14] <pfred1> BTW use mplayer
[05:03:21] <pfred1> way better than xine
[05:05:32] <pfred1> klinkz if you want to see a nice Linux distribution try out SuSE
[05:05:32] <pfred1> sound should work right out of the box
[05:06:16] <klinkz> thanx i know ... but i though that i could see a movie or mp3 while i was working on the 3 axes project
[05:06:33] <klinkz> lol
[05:06:57] <pfred1> well because BDI is tuned for real time machining I think they purposely leave out the sound modules
[05:07:17] <pfred1> you can build another kernel with sound and switch over to it
[05:07:28] <pfred1> but it's an advanced sort of thing
[05:08:17] <klinkz> well i new to linux (last week i was on XP) i don t know how to get access to the kernel
[05:08:59] <pfred1> yeah it's not hard but I'm not going to try to talk you through it
[05:09:12] <pfred1> there's plenty of webpages on the net dedicated to the topic
[05:09:25] <klinkz> when i go to KDE control center i see and icon of a speacker isn t there a way ?
[05:10:15] <klinkz> ok i understand what sould i google for ?
[05:10:34] <pfred1> build linux kernel
[05:10:45] <pfred1> have fun this is what Linux is ALL about!
[05:10:59] <klinkz> ok thanx
[05:11:01] <klinkz> lol
[09:45:26] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ yawns
[09:46:16] <anonimasu_> anonimasu_ is now known as anonimasu
[11:06:27] <les> good morning
[11:39:12] <anonimasu> morning les
[11:46:19] <paul_c> * paul_c takes les to task over XXYZ support in EMC....
[11:47:07] <paul_c> and wonders why no emails are coming through from the lists...
[11:51:04] <les> Well you just saw my post....seems to be coming through ok
[11:52:16] <les> Oh and I understand you now have xxyz working for steppers
[11:53:00] <les> Servo is a bit of a different matter
[11:53:52] <les> The best systems use a feedforward term for X that is dependent on the absulute position
[11:54:03] <les> of Y+Z
[11:54:43] <les> To correct for the very different load inertia on the two sides
[11:55:45] <les> Running at fairly high motor/load inetia ratio helps as well.
[11:59:02] <paul_c> * paul_c looked at the mail archives @ SF....
[11:59:13] <les> oh
[11:59:24] <les> but not getting direct emails?
[11:59:35] <les> I am.
[11:59:46] <paul_c> The hack I did to get XXYZ wrking would also work with steppers
[11:59:52] <les> just a few seconds after posting.
[11:59:59] <les> you mean servos?
[12:00:13] <paul_c> yes - servos & steppers.
[12:00:52] <les> That's great.
[12:01:04] <paul_c> The change is inserted between the trajectory planner and the servo loop...
[12:01:54] <les> I hope you can do true master/slave rather than duplicated tp...
[12:02:26] <les> Seems like it would not be a big deal to do
[12:02:57] <paul_c> There would need to be some additional work to prevent racking, but I believe it would be possible without too much efort.
[12:03:07] <les> yes
[12:03:35] <les> Ferror is a much bigger deal with XXYZ
[12:04:07] <paul_c> I only looked at the hack for lathe support, and realises the changes would also work for XXYZ configs.
[12:04:43] <les> I will have to check out your code
[12:04:47] <les> where is it?
[12:05:55] <paul_c> the hacks ?
[12:06:01] <les> yeah
[12:06:17] <paul_c> they were in /tmp/emc/
[12:06:27] <les> ok
[12:06:38] <les> will have a look
[12:07:02] <paul_c> would have broken EMC for all if they had been committed to SF
[12:07:37] <les> I see
[12:08:27] <les> I am looking forward to a window where my machine can be used a little for testing
[12:08:31] <les> coming soon
[12:08:46] <les> I did a fair job at selling time on the thing
[12:09:03] <paul_c> any chance it would be early May ?
[12:09:30] <les> Strange...the money spigot just suddenly turned on after the elections
[12:09:38] <les> sooner than that
[12:10:27] <les> The machine is actually available now...It's just that I have some engineering activities to clean up
[12:10:57] <les> The production of the calls will resume at a more leisurely pace for next season
[12:11:09] <les> a bit later...
[12:11:53] <paul_c> It would be nice to see your gantry running segmentqueue with a faster CPU
[12:12:05] <les> At the moment I have a product to design and a small research project to kick out
[12:12:36] <les> Yeah....I am looking at a large HP spindle and much higher cutting speeds
[12:13:03] <les> Segmentqueue must work for that to be practical
[12:13:34] <paul_c> tentative plans at the moment for the next trip to the USA....
[12:13:42] <paul_c> One week at NIST
[12:14:10] <paul_c> then a couple of weeks along the AT with some time in the Smokies
[12:14:35] <les> If one tries to run at 1 meter/sec and a good fraction of a g with the old tp the machine would tear itself to pieces
[12:14:50] <les> oh you will have to stay down here a bit
[12:15:16] <les> I was not planning to go to the NIST thing....that is more for you LINUX coders
[12:15:35] <paul_c> I will probably have a BDI-4 box with me complete with an STG card
[12:15:53] <les> So that is in May?
[12:16:02] <paul_c> so to swap out to run some tests would be quick'n'easy.
[12:16:39] <les> I may be in the midst of retroing a Bridgeport around then
[12:16:43] <paul_c> the codeFest is the last week of April...
[12:16:50] <les> ok
[12:17:02] <paul_c> and I don't fly back until the 11th may.
[12:17:32] <paul_c> Although.....
[12:17:48] <les> I really need to get some faster boxes so I can run AXIS etc
[12:18:02] <paul_c> I suspect some of the time might be spent with Matt & Ray on a lathe retrofit.
[12:18:27] <les> I need cnc lathe as well
[12:18:58] <les> I have been able to sell the engineering work ok...but it's time to up the productivity
[12:19:22] <les> I find myself making lots of multiples of things
[12:19:46] <les> And I have hired a part time machinist
[12:20:03] <les> so I am in tool aquisition mode
[12:20:41] <les> second cnc mill and cnc lathe is on the short list
[12:21:16] <les> We are rapidly aproaching the point where I need more space though.
[12:21:52] <les> Commute to industrial park vs building more right here
[12:22:35] <les> I am inclined toward the latter...
[12:22:55] <les> Have to wonder if I want to live at a factory
[12:23:38] <les> If the buildings look nice and could be converted to living space when I outgrew them it would be ok
[12:24:11] <les> i.e no metal boxes
[12:25:02] <paul_c> another dutch barn ?
[12:25:14] <les> ha...yeah I guess
[12:25:38] <les> I don't know
[12:26:14] <les> I have to really sit down sometime and think of development options for some of this proprty
[12:26:31] <les> property
[12:27:04] <les> anyway off to the shop...later
[12:27:26] <les> Plan on some time down here paul
[12:27:47] <paul_c> Your call.
[12:42:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate msie.... it's so old, that is doesn't support PNG32.
[12:43:02] <A-L-P-H-A> is=it
[14:09:01] <A-L-P-H-A> les, think solar water heated concrete flooring if you live in the cold. :) Those are sooo effecient, and keeps your toes toasty. :)
[14:15:27] <paul_c> Hi Ray.
[14:18:16] <rayh> Hi Paul. How you doing today?
[14:21:42] <paul_c> just fleshing out the header
[14:21:59] <rayh> I certainly like the qt widgets and the designer better than tk/vtcl or gtk/glade.
[14:23:01] <rayh> If the link to EMC works we will be in fat city.
[14:23:41] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[14:23:55] <SWPadnos> Hi-ho
[14:24:06] <rayh> SWPadnos, Mornin.
[14:24:40] <SWPadnos> How's the weather up there?
[14:25:09] <rayh> Beautiful sledding.
[14:25:21] <SWPadnos> Ah - it's beautiful shoveling here :)
[14:25:41] <rayh> That was a couple days ago here.
[14:26:01] <rayh> You get a lot of the bad stuff that goes south of us though.
[14:26:09] <SWPadnos> Yes I do
[14:26:50] <rayh> What are your thoughts about Kbuild/qconfig by now?
[14:27:19] <SWPadnos> I haven't had a chance to look at the changes yet. I'm just setting up to do that now.
[14:27:51] <rayh> Great. I looked over the qt documents.
[14:28:45] <rayh> Didn't see the html syntax but their own help/assistant looks like the system should work well.
[14:29:21] <SWPadnos> I had fiddled with trying to get the help to display markup - didn't have any success
[14:29:29] <SWPadnos> Not much time spent on it though
[14:47:35] <rayh> Hi Steve, Terry
[14:50:36] <stevestallings> hi Ray
[14:51:53] <rayh> I've got a vapor ware manual mode gui snapshot and qt3 executable if anyone wants to take a look.
[14:52:25] <rayh> The executable should pick up on your kde default look.
[14:52:41] <cradek> me! me!
[14:52:46] <SWPadnos> Where?
[14:53:17] <rayh> I'll put in a tarball at linuxcnc.org/dropbox. Name is vapor.tgz.
[14:53:28] <SWPadnos> Ah - cool
[14:53:41] <SWPadnos> Can soemone help me out with an sshd problem?
[14:54:01] <cradek> probably
[14:54:30] <SWPadnos> Well - I have a Gentoo system, ssh is installed, and I can't connect - I get "connection refused" messages
[14:54:38] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure exactly where I need to enable it
[14:54:52] <cradek> that's not an ssh problem, it's a gentoo problem
[14:55:00] <SWPadnos> that could well be :)
[14:55:15] <cradek> well the most basic answer is "run sshd"
[14:55:29] <cradek> but there is probably some startup script that is the "proper" way to start it in your distribution.
[14:56:12] <SWPadnos> Hmm - it looks like it needs host keys
[14:56:33] <SWPadnos> "could not load host key" from various files
[14:56:53] <cradek> SWPadnos: all I know is redhat generates those at the first ssh startup.
[14:57:05] <SWPadnos> that would be ideal :)
[14:57:06] <cradek> SWPadnos: well, freebsd also does, so I guess that wasn't ALL I know.
[14:57:17] <cradek> SWPadnos: but that may be all of it now.
[14:57:17] <SWPadnos> Debian seems to as well
[14:57:35] <cradek> SWPadnos: maybe you should try one of these distributions...?
[14:57:55] <rayh> If you've got the empty ssh host files it should ask if you want to add the key.
[14:58:26] <rayh> Blessings on gftp -- vapor.tgz is in there.
[14:58:47] <cradek> rayh: he means they *system* host key
[14:58:59] <rayh> Oh.
[14:59:06] <rayh> ssh-keygen
[14:59:07] <cradek> rayh: they are generated for sshd's use by a special procedure.
[14:59:21] <rayh> I used to know that.
[15:00:02] <cradek> echo -n $"Generating SSH1 RSA host key: "
[15:00:03] <cradek> if $KEYGEN -q -t rsa1 -f $RSA1_KEY -C '' -N '' >&/dev/null; then
[15:00:06] <cradek> echo -n $"Generating SSH2 RSA host key: "
[15:00:06] <cradek> if $KEYGEN -q -t rsa -f $RSA_KEY -C '' -N '' >&/dev/null; then
[15:00:14] <cradek> and so on
[15:01:09] <SWPadnos> Well - I guess I could have just done /etc/init.d/sshd start first, and avoided all these problems :)
[15:02:51] <jepler> rayh: the window contents get cut off on my system.
http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/ray.png
[15:03:21] <cradek> mine too.
[15:04:29] <rayh> It does show style at your end, just that the default screen is not big enough. Can you drag it out.
[15:04:45] <jepler> no, enlarging the window doesn't help
[15:04:55] <jepler> I get more gray, unused area
[15:05:25] <rayh> Ah. The abs frame is not big enough. I need to make it resizable. I'm learning.
[15:05:44] <jepler> http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/ray2.png
[15:05:46] <rayh> Thanks guys. Whatcha think.
[15:05:55] <rayh> * rayh puts on the nomex suit.
[15:06:37] <jepler> well, you know we got rid of the big coordinate display in AXIS as nearly the first break with the existing user interfaces...
[15:06:56] <cradek> is there a radiobutton widget? Stop/Forward/Reverse are mutually-exclusive so the correct widget to use is a radiobutton set
[15:07:17] <cradek> Flood and Mist should stick on and off so they should be some kind of toggle, not regular buttons
[15:07:27] <jepler> user interface design books recommend that labeled frames ("absolute", "spindle", etc) not be nested.
[15:07:34] <rayh> The are expected to change color and
[15:08:34] <jepler> Gui Bloopers by Jeff Johnson says "Another form of this blooper ['misusing group boxes'] is to nest group boxes within group boes. This makes for a needlessly cluttered display."
[15:08:41] <anonimasu> hm..
[15:08:47] <anonimasu> does anyone understand german?
[15:09:00] <rayh> very little
[15:09:03] <cradek> anonimasu: not at all
[15:09:14] <jepler> (and they have two really extreme examples of the problem, with 3 nested group boxes)
[15:09:55] <anonimasu> hm..
[15:09:58] <anonimasu> wont help then :)
[15:10:09] <rayh> Right. I did it purposefully. So that when we change mode the entire man display is replaced.
[15:10:49] <rayh> No need for man display in auto or MDI unless we change the nature of those modes.
[15:11:03] <jepler> Oh, so maybe you want a "notebook" type widget instead of the group box, to show different pages for different modes?
[15:11:27] <rayh> Large lettering is a preference in many shops with larger machines.
[15:12:25] <rayh> Even DaveE Mazak is large enough so that at his "advanced age" requires either a pendant display or larger lettering.
[15:12:49] <rayh> I'm trying to provoke an argument here.
[15:12:58] <cradek> I'd rather argue about widgets
[15:13:16] <rayh> k
[15:13:39] <cradek> You should be able to show, by using widgets in a standard way, how the interface works. Some options are toggles, some are mutually-exclusive, some have contextual grouping, etc.
[15:13:58] <cradek> the frame should group things that are joined contextually (jogging)
[15:13:59] <rayh> radiobuttons v buttons that change state.
[15:14:04] <cradek> right
[15:14:12] <cradek> checkbuttons for things that toggle (mist/flood)
[15:14:24] <jepler> cradek: in AXIS, the spindle ccw/stop/cw buttons merely press in to show they are activated
[15:14:24] <cradek> radiobuttons for things that are mutually-exclusive (stop/forward/reverse)
[15:14:45] <jepler> ours don't look like radiobuttons either
[15:14:48] <rayh> That is about what I had in mind here.
[15:14:55] <cradek> jepler: I know, that's the best we could do to get radiobutton-like things with pictures on them.
[15:15:09] <SWPadnos> so - when I untar vapor.tgz, I get two file - manual and a png - am I missing something?
[15:15:18] <cradek> rayh: but you have five things grouped together, and you can't tell from looking which are the radiobutton set.
[15:15:46] <jepler> SWPadnos: you may be able to run "./manual", or if you can't then just look at the png file
[15:16:13] <rayh> You guys are good with words.
[15:16:14] <SWPadnos> weird - it didn't look executable
[15:16:18] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos needs more coffee
[15:16:41] <cradek> rayh: we argue about UI issues all the time so we know the lingo well :-)
[15:17:04] <rayh> I was thinking of your reply to SWP
[15:18:25] <SWPadnos> One thing about toggle buttons (such as coolant, estop, etc.) - it's hard to tell what you're actually about to do if you click the button
[15:18:40] <rayh> Several years ago we had a fellow that works for cygwin explain that if all an operator can do is press home or jog an axis
[15:18:44] <SWPadnos> there's a confusion as to whether the button label shows the current state, or the action to be performed (usually opposites)
[15:18:53] <rayh> those are the only controls they should see.
[15:19:18] <cradek> SWPadnos: right, that's why there are checkboxes for things that turn on and off. Everyone knows exactly how they work.
[15:19:21] <rayh> This is a constant problem with something like tkemc.
[15:19:30] <SWPadnos> yes (to both of you :) )
[15:19:50] <rayh> My use of it in MINI confuses a few people when estop changes to estop reset.
[15:20:04] <SWPadnos> toggles are also acceptable (like in [shudder] LabView)
[15:20:09] <cradek> rayh: with tkemc everything is a "rectangle" - some rectangles toggle, some pop up menus, etc. It's a hodgepodge.
[15:20:12] <rayh> The use of the term everyone grates on me.
[15:20:15] <jepler> cradek: do we have any buttons in axis that change their words?
[15:20:28] <SWPadnos> the ideal is to have a control and an indicator (which a checkbox encapsulates pretty well
[15:20:35] <rayh> I know several folk from other parts of the world who dont.
[15:20:39] <cradek> jepler: not that I can think of.
[15:20:55] <cradek> rayh: you mean my comment about checkboxes?
[15:21:12] <rayh> I even know a lot of shop floor folk who would rather own a snowmobile than a f*&^%$g computer.
[15:21:29] <cradek> rayh: someone who is familiar with, for example, kde applications, will know how the kde widgets work. They can bring this knowledge to your application, but only if you use the widgets in their standard way.
[15:21:41] <SWPadnos> ANd they'd rather repair the snowmobile than even touch a computer
[15:21:51] <jepler> maybe "everyone who uses Windows apps should be expected to recognize and understand a checkbox widget"?
[15:22:11] <rayh> They are acquainted with buttons that say spind forward. They press it and the spindle begins to turn.
[15:22:19] <SWPadnos> "Everyone who is expected to run a computer *should* understand checkboxes"
[15:22:33] <SWPadnos> (at least a computer with a GUI )
[15:22:38] <rayh> Nah. Not even that far toward computing.
[15:22:40] <cradek> rayh: but the it turns red or green and the button changes to "spin backward" - then suddenly they don't understand it anymore.
[15:22:44] <cradek> then
[15:23:05] <SWPadnos> I think there
[15:23:05] <rayh> That is the trap that we computer folk fall into.
[15:23:17] <SWPadnos> I think there's often a confusion when a control is also used as an indicator
[15:23:31] <rayh> Yep on that one.
[15:23:34] <cradek> SWPadnos: some widgets are exactly for that. Checkbuttons.
[15:23:42] <SWPadnos> sure
[15:23:48] <cradek> Some widgets are NOT for that: buttons
[15:24:03] <stevestallings> I get calls from potential breakout board customers asking for a printed catalog. When I as why not see our web page they respond "because I don't like using computers". I plan to remove our phone number from future ads.
[15:24:03] <cradek> if you try to make a button do that work, it does get confusing, I agree.
[15:24:23] <SWPadnos> And a "slide edit" is pretty good for speed control and display
[15:24:56] <SWPadnos> Checkboxes aren't perfect though - you have to have an option title that makes sense
[15:25:06] <SWPadnos> (since you only get one)
[15:25:31] <cradek> SWPadnos: yeah, it's the thing you turn on and off: "Flood"
[15:25:44] <SWPadnos> A toggle (looks like a toggle switch) with two labels is ideal in this situation, especially since most machine operators will know what it does immediately
[15:25:49] <cradek> SWPadnos: if the check is there next to it, you know the flood is on. otherwise it's off.
[15:26:09] <cradek> SWPadnos: I'm not familiar with that widget...
[15:26:24] <SWPadnos> Well - I'm not sure it exists in Qt - I'm thinking ot LabView
[15:26:27] <SWPadnos> of
[15:26:32] <rayh> I've got two buttons that work like a toggle in mini one or the other is in all the time.
[15:26:42] <rayh> pressing one pops the other out.
[15:26:48] <cradek> rayh: are they radiobuttons (the diamond?)
[15:26:55] <rayh> Long years ago they had these in light switches.
[15:26:58] <jepler> When you expect your software to be used by people who use other software, you serve your users best by adopting the standard conventions of the "other software". Maybe the situation is different on shop floors where the guy working has never used another application in his life.
[15:27:06] <rayh> No I made them myself.
[15:27:16] <SWPadnos> It's hard to tell in from out sometimes (which option is selected - you can only tell when there are more than two, since they just toggle state)
[15:27:18] <cradek> rayh: so they're the checkbutton widget (square?)
[15:27:52] <rayh> No just plain buttons.
[15:28:02] <rayh> When the emc's state changes they toggle.
[15:28:35] <cradek> sounds like, in my opinion, buttons probably weren't the right widget to use in that case.
[15:29:12] <rayh> I try as much as possible to make the display part of the gui a state thing.
[15:29:13] <cradek> (I'm trying to be inoffensive but consistent here)
[15:29:20] <rayh> not gui state but emc state.
[15:29:39] <cradek> but you could do that just as easily with the proper widget (radiobuttons)
[15:29:40] <rayh> Hey no problem. I'm up for this.
[15:30:01] <cradek> then, the user could see, by looking at it, how it works (these X things are mutually-exclusive)
[15:30:01] <rayh> proper is one of those loaded words -- a bit like modern.
[15:30:42] <jepler> Does anybody know if the "stop sign" you see on all the roads in the US is a federal standard (size, color, font, etc) or whether it's a state standard, but every state has (nearly) identical requirements?
[15:30:47] <rayh> We seem to be confusing radio and check.
[15:30:56] <rayh> And so do many users.
[15:31:04] <SWPadnos> I think it varies by state
[15:31:11] <cradek> radiobuttons are the things (that use to be) on your radio. You push one in, all the others pop out. They're mutually-exclusive.
[15:31:32] <cradek> checkbuttons have an indicator next to them (a check box) - they are not mutually-exlusive and they show the state which can be toggled on and off.
[15:31:36] <rayh> There are fed standards and the state looses funding if they don't comply with the range allowed.
[15:31:39] <jepler> The "pushbutton light switch" mentioned earlier is also an example of a radio button (push one, the other one pops out)
[15:32:00] <rayh> And they look identical in some tk.
[15:32:17] <cradek> no, radiobuttons are diamonds. checkbuttons are squares.
[15:32:26] <rayh> I tried using green for check and red for radio.
[15:32:43] <cradek> you may have not noticed the difference, but they are completely different.
[15:33:04] <jepler> That (use of color) is problematic, because green and red are already loaded with meaning for most people (green = go)
[15:33:06] <rayh> clompletely is another of those loaded words.
[15:33:41] <rayh> We do have to get to the level of a good discussion without loading our sentences with a lot of personal impressions.
[15:33:58] <rayh> Yes and if you press a checkbutton it is a go.
[15:33:59] <cradek> ok remove completely from that sentence.
[15:34:05] <CIA-4> 03gezr 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/READ.ME: File changed. New revision:1.2
[15:34:12] <stevestallings> ...trying really hard to stimulate the discussion are we....
[15:35:02] <cradek> I have no personal stake in this and if I'm not helping the discussion be constructive, I'll quit "helping"
[15:35:11] <rayh> Yes we are. You guys are great.
[15:35:13] <cradek> I'm not here to argue for fun or anything.
[15:35:33] <cradek> I do enjoy that sometimes :-)
[15:35:40] <rayh> I may be laughing a bit but fun has nothing to do with this.
[15:35:49] <stevestallings> Ray likes to get people all riled up so he can find out how they "really" feel about things.
[15:36:14] <rayh> I confess, steve has found me out.
[15:36:37] <cradek> how come you keep pointing out my occasional strong words then?
[15:37:10] <rayh> Only to the extent that they seem to demean any other position.
[15:37:55] <rayh> I confess to being a amateur when it comes to anything computing.
[15:38:22] <cradek> well, sorry to be blunt, but when a statement is wrong (radiobuttons and checkbuttons look the same) it's not "an equally valid opinion" and pointing out its wrongness shouldn't demean anybody.
[15:38:24] <jepler> cradek: People coming from Windows 9x-style GUIs (circles and rectangles with black marks for selection) might have trouble with Tk's widgets (diamonds and rectangles which push in and turn red for selection)
[15:38:33] <rayh> but imo we need to be as considerate of the effort of others if we are to succeed at an open source project.
[15:38:40] <cradek> jepler: totally agreed.
[15:38:58] <jepler> That's one reason we incorporated my terrible hacks for 9x-style widget appearance
[15:39:12] <cradek> rayh: I am not trying to demean your contributions. I apologize if it seems that way.
[15:39:23] <rayh> Hey I'm not attacking your work either.
[15:39:37] <cradek> rayh: I'm honestly trying to help you make the new gui clearer
[15:39:46] <rayh> I like a lot of stuff that you did there. I'm proud a hell that you guys did it.
[15:40:26] <jepler> you're clearly welcome to any of the ideas you like
[15:40:30] <rayh> I get pretty upset at those folk who insist on using keystick. But there are some who will not move out of the stone age.
[15:40:52] <cradek> rayh: just make those folks NOT your target audience
[15:41:02] <rayh> Yep.
[15:41:03] <cradek> rayh: they're doing fine and don't want this, that's cool.
[15:41:44] <rayh> I think the wider the range of possible views of a running EMC we can get the better able a person is able to use it.
[15:42:30] <cradek> it's true that some want "pretty" (axis??) and some want "traditional" (keystick??)
[15:42:36] <cradek> all different wants
[15:42:37] <rayh> I know from experience that it is a PITA to maintain older stuff
[15:43:03] <rayh> and to maintain a wide variety of things that do the same thing...
[15:43:19] <rayh> but I think in our world of open we will need to.
[15:43:21] <SWPadnos> *yes*
[15:43:38] <SWPadnos> yes on the PITA, not on the "we need to" :)
[15:43:55] <rayh> ??
[15:44:49] <SWPadnos> sorry - it probably is necessary to keep maintaining the text mode control program as well as one or more graphical apps, but it is a PITA
[15:45:07] <jepler> It'll be interesting to see what happens to AXIS when EMC gets upgraded to the point where it doesn't work anymore. If there are some new features that cradek wants, then we'll probably fix it up. If not, it's somebody else's albatross.
[15:45:37] <cradek> jepler: it's already got metric wrong, but I don't know if anyone will fix it
[15:45:57] <rayh> I feel the same about all of the tickle code in there.
[15:45:58] <cradek> jepler: I'd be the type to never upgrade my (working fine) EMC
[15:46:29] <cradek> jepler: so EMC continuing to move along won't necessarily impact me much.
[15:46:36] <jepler> cradek: yeah, you are that type of guy.
[15:46:41] <cradek> jepler: 100%
[15:46:49] <rayh> I've got several things here that I keep here just because I don't want to have to mess with em.
[15:47:31] <SWPadnos> rayh: what is the slider on the right side meant for?
[15:47:47] <jepler> it's a good sign that an emc1-built axis worked nearly right on emc2.
[15:47:54] <rayh> You guys would really fuss about my "no mouse no keyboard" displays.
[15:48:03] <SWPadnos> well - that's an issue
[15:48:08] <rayh> jog speed.
[15:48:11] <SWPadnos> I have a touchscreen, so I get no right-click
[15:48:28] <SWPadnos> OK - thanks
[15:48:37] <jepler> I don't think anything in AXIS requires a right-click
[15:48:49] <SWPadnos> (I suppose it should be grayed out when the jog type isn't continuous)
[15:48:52] <cradek> rayh: maybe you could group all the jogging things together in a frame?
[15:49:10] <rayh> Tkemc has a few right clicks.
[15:49:12] <jepler> we had meant to add right-click as an easier way to access "copy" and "set next line" and so forth, but it was never a high priority
[15:49:29] <SWPadnos> most notably for homing / setting axis position
[15:49:43] <SWPadnos> even double-clicks can be problematic with a touchscreen
[15:49:50] <jepler> we never did coordinate offsets in axis, since cradek and I don't use them
[15:50:01] <jepler> I forgot about that use of right-clicking in the other GUIs
[15:50:22] <cradek> jepler: les says he types MDI G92 anyway. I probably would too.
[15:50:35] <rayh> Touch screen is a whole different world as near as I can tell.
[15:50:51] <rayh> I've done a few attempts and so have a couple other guys.
[15:50:52] <paul_c> touch screens are fun
[15:51:02] <cradek> rayh: I can't imagine jogging with a touchscreen. The arrow keys must be so much better.
[15:51:16] <paul_c> 'specially when you have to write the driver for the puppy.
[15:51:32] <SWPadnos> Luckily this one had a Linux driver :)
[15:51:36] <jepler> the driver shouldn't be *that* hard
[15:51:46] <jepler> heck, cradek has written a half-dozen absolute-mode tablet drivers for X by now
[15:51:51] <SWPadnos> It actually acts like a serial mouse
[15:52:15] <cradek> SWPadnos: seems like you would need an absolute-mode protocol (not relative like a mouse)
[15:52:23] <paul_c> If you've never seen the inside of an X driver, it isn't that easy...
[15:52:43] <rayh> Keyboards don't last for crap in a shop floor environment.
[15:52:47] <SWPadnos> It was really easy for me, since Elo wrote the driver and provided instructions on how to install it :)
[15:53:13] <rayh> That's why all the controls are using a tray and cheap units that they throw away every six months.
[15:53:34] <rayh> But get one chip under a critical key and jogging is a hazard.
[15:53:37] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure how well a touchscreen will hold up either
[15:54:04] <paul_c> Some types are better than others
[15:54:15] <rayh> So true. I've seen a few on shop machines.
[15:54:18] <SWPadnos> yep - and mine is from eBay, so I have no idea how good it is
[15:54:30] <rayh> But the folk I deal with say nfw.
[15:54:52] <SWPadnos> The industrial / outdoor ones can last a while, but things meant for mon's kitchen computer aren't that sturdy
[15:55:50] <rayh> Shop folk would rather button press their way through 4 deep menus than have a mouse or keyboard for control
[15:56:18] <rayh> Computer savvy folk will really scream about that kind of interface.
[15:56:34] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:56:46] <SWPadnos> Actually, a "morphing" interface might be useful
[15:56:53] <paul_c> There are swathes of books & white papers on the HMI
[15:57:12] <SWPadnos> almost like separate windows with different functions for each
[15:57:42] <SWPadnos> a position display, a nice jog tool (like one of the 3d widgets in Blender), a machine control panel
[15:57:55] <SWPadnos> for coolant, spindle, etc.
[15:58:06] <rayh> If a restaurant has touch screens, I have a habit of sitting where I can watch the operator.
[15:58:17] <SWPadnos> Similar to the mini works, actually
[15:58:27] <SWPadnos> try an airport sometime
[15:58:34] <rayh> It is amazing how many presses it takes to enter a single drink or a new bottle from stock.
[15:58:36] <SWPadnos> for an example of a useless user interface
[15:59:12] <rayh> It is also amazing to watch the operators who have learned the strokes.
[15:59:41] <rayh> It becomes a lot like virtuoso piano.
[15:59:56] <rayh> The next press is ready before the display is ready for it.
[16:00:08] <SWPadnos> you're right though - slide card, select table, person at table, drinks->alcoholic->hot->Coffee+Bailey's->Yes, I checked ID->Yes I'm sure
[16:00:30] <SWPadnos> (plus a password or two)
[16:00:43] <rayh> If you Changed the rate at which the screens appeared it would mess up the operator.
[16:00:51] <SWPadnos> heh - yup
[16:00:58] <rayh> SWP's been watching also.
[16:01:09] <SWPadnos> then there are the touchscreen touch-typists
[16:01:23] <SWPadnos> fast number entry
[16:01:39] <SWPadnos> I is a engineer - I always watch that kind of thing
[16:01:40] <rayh> * rayh goes for a cup of coffee. Thanks for the good feedback on vapor.tgz guys. I do appreciate all you do.
[16:01:59] <rayh> and value your opinions. Even those that grate on me.
[16:04:25] <SWPadnos> It might be interesting to separate the GUI functionality into several categories (each with its own wiindow(s)):
[16:05:02] <SWPadnos> "Pendant functions" - these allow the user to control the machine with buttons / switches
[16:05:27] <SWPadnos> machine status - position display, lights/indicators for aux. functions
[16:05:44] <SWPadnos> extras: MDI input, toolpath plot, etc.
[16:07:38] <rayh> Mega widgets that the user can grab and place to their own satisfaction.
[16:08:57] <SWPadnos> Or separate windows that they can move, maximize/minimze/overlap as they please
[16:09:11] <SWPadnos> or close if they're not interested
[16:09:19] <rayh> That would work in the world of computers.
[16:09:52] <SWPadnos> Or, think like a tabbed interface - use a "slide switch" to change what the display looks like
[16:09:57] <rayh> One problem with tkemc is that pop-ups can get lost behind but still prevent action on the main screen.
[16:10:32] <rayh> I keep wanting an upside down tabbed widget.
[16:10:50] <SWPadnos> There should be no application-modal dialog that allows itself to lose top window position
[16:10:55] <SWPadnos> tabs on the bottom?
[16:10:55] <rayh> so that I could put a bunch of buttons below the screen... one for each tab
[16:11:09] <rayh> We got one in tkemc.
[16:12:23] <rayh> Some messages prevent next operation but hide themselves if you press something else at the exact moment.
[16:12:34] <SWPadnos> should be easy in Qt - like set QTabBar::Shape to RoundedBelow or TriangularBelow
[16:12:56] <rayh> That is one reason I created the message area in mini and made the whole thing one level.
[16:13:17] <SWPadnos> a timer could fix that - BringToTop then set 2-second timeout, after which you BringToTop again
[16:13:36] <rayh> Not bad.
[16:14:28] <SWPadnos> What controls require operator intervention? (like a G-code pause / wait for operator continue)
[16:33:59] <SWPadnos> rayh: is the source to vapor available?
[16:34:41] <rayh> You bet it is. You on Paul's cvs?
[16:34:49] <SWPadnos> sure
[16:34:58] <SWPadnos> (bdi-4 you mean?)
[16:35:13] <rayh> Just a minute.
[16:40:15] <jepler> rayh: In Tk, are you using "wm transient"? For instance, if you execute "toplevel .t; wm transient .t .", then .t should always stay on top of the main window until it's destroyed.
[16:48:35] <rayh> Ah. Probably not. Seem to remember some sort of discussion with Fred when we did tkemc but that is a really good idea.
[16:52:10] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/- New directory: File changed. New revision:NONE
[16:53:16] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/- New directory: File changed. New revision:NONE
[16:53:53] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/- New directory: File changed. New revision:NONE
[16:59:18] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/- New directory: File changed. New revision:NONE
[17:03:16] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/Makefile: File changed. New revision:main.cpp
[17:03:22] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/manual.cpp: File changed. New revision:manual.h
[17:03:26] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/main.o: File changed. New revision:manual.o
[17:03:31] <CIA-4> 03rayh 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/moc_manual.cpp: File changed. New revision:1.1
[17:04:21] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/qemccommand.h: File changed. New revision:1.1
[17:37:25] <anonimasu> hello
[17:37:39] <anonimasu> what's up?
