#emc | Logs for 2005-03-13

[00:00:06] <robin_sz> but, right idea
[00:00:10] <jmkasunich> should be right down my alley then
[00:00:18] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich designer of obsolete hardware
[00:01:24] <robin_sz> a PCI version would be nicer
[00:01:30] <robin_sz> or USB ...
[00:01:44] <robin_sz> a PCI version would be nicer
[00:01:46] <robin_sz> or USB ...
[00:01:57] <lg_> or ethernet
[00:02:02] <jmkasunich> USB pah.... ethernet
[00:02:32] <lg_> has anyone done work on the cp1 stuff lately?
[00:02:35] <robin_sz> ethernet is also a good choice. isnt usb2.2 quicker though?
[00:03:00] <jmkasunich> they seem to be strictly digital guys... one CPLD, but nothing to interface to realworld stuff, like optos, noise suppression, etc
[00:03:10] <robin_sz> shame.
[00:03:21] <lg_> usb is brain dead... took 10 years to get 1mb/s stuff supported and distance is very limited...
[00:03:36] <lg_> good for mouse and such..
[00:03:43] <robin_sz> its perfect for my application.
[00:03:44] <jmkasunich> I have an instinctive revulsion to USB... can't explain it
[00:04:41] <robin_sz> with the interpeter on the far side of the USB, its just a question of send ing the prog. and sitting back, no timing critical issues
[00:04:42] <lg_> even mice want wireless function now
[00:06:04] <robin_sz> well, it was either USB or ethernet, and Windows doesnt support netowrking, so ethernet was out.
[00:06:45] <lg_> use 10/100/1000mb ethernet and do it from anywhere.... even dos had enet packet drivers
[00:07:06] <jmkasunich> I think you've discovered why I hate USB... it's MS driven (at least partially)
[00:07:08] <robin_sz> dos was painful to network ...
[00:07:19] <jmkasunich> whereas ethernet is a natural fit for unix/linux
[00:07:19] <robin_sz> it is?
[00:07:29] <robin_sz> I thought it was linux driven?
[00:07:31] <lg_> dos still is painful...
[00:07:39] <robin_sz> dos is mainly dead.
[00:07:57] <robin_sz> I run a freedos box here ..somewhere
[00:08:18] <robin_sz> for a completely obscure reason
[00:09:10] <robin_sz> it runs a bit of software that converts the hex error and status chat coming out of the laser PSUs into human readable gibberish
[00:09:41] <robin_sz> I didnt mind connecting DOS to the laser, but no way windows ...
[00:10:55] <robin_sz> sadly my favourite software of the moment is Windows based ...
[00:11:20] <robin_sz> the Xilinx ISE stuff. best package Ive used in years, and its free (as in beer)
[00:15:08] <gezr> hmm
[00:15:20] <gezr> I havent had much to say at all today
[00:16:34] <robin_sz> I say too much
[00:17:03] <jmkasunich> I guess it all evens out, eh?
[00:17:08] <robin_sz> I got little done today
[00:17:48] <robin_sz> I only remembered last night I had promised to be Range Officer at the local rifle range today
[00:18:03] <robin_sz> no RCO means no shooting, so I had to show.
[00:18:37] <robin_sz> that took care of 10am till 4pm
[00:19:00] <gezr> some guys I work with were at a shooting match today
[00:19:19] <gezr> idpa sponsered event I think
[00:19:23] <gezr> something like that
[00:19:27] <robin_sz> idpa?
[00:19:35] <gezr> It may not be the right acronymn
[00:19:45] <robin_sz> internation dog popping assoscition?
[00:19:54] <gezr> http://www.eastextactical.com/idpa.htm
[00:19:59] <gezr> yeah its right
[00:20:04] <robin_sz> christ on a bike, I cant type.
[00:20:30] <gezr> can he ride a bike?
[00:20:52] <robin_sz> i expect if hea had existed, he would have done, yes.
[00:21:16] <gezr> what sort of motorcycle whould he ride?
[00:21:35] <gezr> I cant spell
[00:21:40] <robin_sz> a Ducati, of course.
[00:21:44] <gezr> :)
[00:21:45] <gezr> hahaha
[00:21:47] <robin_sz> no contest
[00:22:12] <gezr> maybe a triumph
[00:22:24] <gezr> or an indian
[00:22:28] <robin_sz> ugh. to both.
[00:22:34] <gezr> would be out of place on a harley
[00:22:51] <lg_> so far so good on bdi install.... its is slowly wiping xp from the hard drive
[00:22:59] <robin_sz> excellent.
[00:23:04] <gezr> lg_ : whoot !
[00:23:37] <robin_sz> mind ewe, I'm beginning to like XP
[00:23:56] <gezr> Im on a xp box right now
[00:23:57] <lg_> tux looks good as a machinist!
[00:23:59] <robin_sz> i think The Gimp actually runs better on XP
[00:24:06] <gezr> well putty makes this possiable
[00:24:49] <lg_> gimp likes lots of ram.... 512+ if you big images
[00:24:51] <gezr> I may play some swg later
[00:25:29] <lg_> hope that is not my fingers making all those bloopers
[00:26:04] <robin_sz> windows 2.x 3.x were betas that should have stayed private. Win 95 should have been shot at birth, along with early NTs. 98 sucked, but was nearly useable, Me and 2K were ok in places .. XP, well, its not bad. which is a suprsise to me
[00:27:17] <lg_> I programmed sudo realtime stuff in NT for quite a few years.... it was pretty stable, our apps ran in hundreds of sawmills 24/7
[00:27:33] <jmkasunich> robin_sz is a heretic
[00:27:34] <lg_> trick was to keep it off the internet!
[00:27:36] <robin_sz> CVS integration in Doze (with Tortoise CVS) is way ahead of linux. that hurts!
[00:27:51] <gezr> 18:28:40 up 78 days, 3:10, 2 users,
[00:27:54] <gezr> thats phat
[00:28:31] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: no, a reallist. I love my Linux boxes, but I'm not going to not use Windows on religious grounds, as some stuff is actually OK.
[00:28:54] <gezr> im a fan of the what works use religion
[00:29:04] <robin_sz> amongst the not-OK things however is realtime motion control
[00:29:20] <gezr> I dont use windows for control, just games
[00:29:35] <robin_sz> some of the IDEs are good
[00:29:41] <robin_sz> like Borland Builder
[00:30:01] <robin_sz> and that Xilinx thing
[00:30:20] <lg_> I like the tool choices and languages under linux... much easier to find code samples under linux
[00:30:28] <robin_sz> true.
[00:30:52] <robin_sz> I'll use whatever works.
[00:31:28] <robin_sz> for anything connected to the net, publically, that means Linux
[00:33:09] <lg_> some great pictures during the bdi install
[00:34:05] <paul_c> All made with EMC
[00:35:55] <lg_> I have been kind of a gnome guy... will be interesting to try the kde side of linux
[00:38:39] <robin_sz> right ... bedtime
[00:43:09] <paul_c> lg_: One important note for you when running EMC from the command line
[00:44:05] <lg_> yes?
[00:44:10] <paul_c> No need to run as root - As long as sudo is installed & configured, EMC will run just fine.
[00:45:44] <lg_> great... I used to run as root. Install just complained it could not read cpp file... may need to manually install
[00:46:33] <lg_> This laptop has the slowest hard drive... Its painful
[00:46:54] <paul_c> 300MHz did you say ?
[00:47:37] <lg_> Yes 300mhz celeron with 128mb... soon to be 192mb... runs older emc ok.
[00:48:10] <paul_c> Watch the PERIOD settings - They may be too small for 300MHz
[00:48:57] <lg_> yes, I have been there.... default is a little small for slow boxes...
[00:49:38] <lg_> I like the quadrature drive method as I can do twice the step rate as having to pulse a step pin up and down.
[00:49:48] <paul_c> tweaked the low level code, so the pulse generation code can be run 15-20% faster
[00:50:39] <paul_c> (nuts - Had removed all but the basic freqmod code)
[00:50:51] <lg_> great... I wrote the freqmod stuff for quadrature and phase drive... havent looked at the sources lately to see how much survived.
[00:51:10] <paul_c> in th3 bdi-4 branch, none...
[00:51:39] <lg_> opps... does that mean no more quad drive?
[00:51:53] <lg_> my controller doesnt talk step/dir
[00:52:06] <paul_c> No, it just requires the code to be re-instated
[00:53:10] <lg_> I will have a look... the quad stuff was pretty fast compared to the old step/dir code.
[00:53:25] <paul_c> but if you are happy with GPL status, we can put it back.
[00:54:16] <lg_> GPL is cool, that how things get better
[00:57:10] <lg_> Install is indicating 80 minutes remaining!!! Its getting time for me to run off for a BBQ... west coast ya know.
[00:57:31] <paul_c> I ripped out a lot of unused code along with some bits that I didn't need or couldn't test...
[00:58:08] <paul_c> The intention is to revisit much of the code ad rework some of it.
[00:59:25] <paul_c> freqmod needs a good kick around after Matt's setup & hold params were added.
[01:00:53] <lg_> Another nice feature of the quad drive... setup and hold problems dont exist
[01:01:06] <jmkasunich> or use hte HAL stepgen... it has quad and a whole bunch of other steptypes
[01:01:21] <lg_> was trying to talk gecko into supporting that drive method... same 2 lines...
[01:01:22] <jmkasunich> s/hte/the/
[01:01:38] <jmkasunich> so that was you....
[01:01:43] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich reads the gecko list
[01:02:06] <lg_> guilty
[01:04:02] <lg_> with the bdi 4.2 disk installed... what do I need to do to run the new emc2/hal combo.... build from cvs?
[01:05:58] <paul_c> You'd need to bug the developer(s) about 2.6 build support with emc2/hal
[01:06:45] <lg_> ok... got to run for dinner.... will tune in tomorrow
[01:06:55] <paul_c> * paul_c heads off to bed.
[01:07:05] <paul_c> Night all.
[01:07:20] <gezr> ni
[01:28:48] <jmkasunich> hi ray
[01:28:59] <rayh> Well Hi John.
[01:29:26] <jmkasunich> feeling better?
[01:29:54] <rayh> a bit. Still drowning in my own nasal ...
[01:31:46] <rayh> How you doing tonight?
[01:32:04] <jmkasunich> buried under clutter... seems the norm lately
[01:32:21] <rayh> I've got to get there and remove some of it!
[01:32:35] <jmkasunich> most of that clutter is in the garage...
[01:32:46] <jmkasunich> the stuff around me right now is in the basement
[01:32:56] <jmkasunich> you can probably have some of that too if you want
[01:33:06] <jmkasunich> right now I'm trying to ebay some of it
[01:33:18] <rayh> My wife knows something about basement clutter. I figure it's valuable.
[01:33:36] <jmkasunich> when you can't walk around tho, it starts to be a problem
[01:34:26] <rayh> Steve was telling me about a guy who had paper and stuff at least 3" deep on the basement floor.
[01:35:05] <jmkasunich> I don't have 3" of paper. I have 2' of boxes
[01:35:22] <rayh> All good stuff though.
[01:35:31] <jmkasunich> sometimes I wonder
[01:35:51] <jmkasunich> I'm starting to think the clutter in my basement is just a symptom of the clutter in my mind
[01:36:06] <jmkasunich> I've been finding it very hard to focus and get things done lately
[01:36:12] <rayh> a clean basement is a sign of a sick mind!
[01:37:28] <rayh> course i wouldn't know, I've never had one.
[01:37:58] <jmkasunich> lol
[01:38:15] <jmkasunich> me neither... but it has definitely been cleaner than it is now
[01:39:09] <jmkasunich> it's significantly worse than this right now: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/bench.jpg
[01:40:35] <rayh> Looks pretty efficient to me.
[01:41:16] <rayh> I recognize the stepper box from last year.
[01:41:31] <rayh> i really missed a lot by not being able to stay through.
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> hopefully things will be better this year.
[01:41:54] <jmkasunich> family comes first tho
[01:42:00] <rayh> I do hope so.
[01:42:11] <rayh> Paul got a room booked last night.
[01:42:36] <jmkasunich> he pointed out that the motel 6 is next to the RR tracks
[01:43:02] <rayh> I believe he got a room at Extended Stay America.
[01:43:10] <jmkasunich> that "extended stay" place seems nice, and the weekly rate isn't bad... but the daily rate is $95
[01:43:15] <rayh> Said it was about 2.5 miles from NIST.
[01:43:36] <rayh> No He got something for 55, 65 double.
[01:43:51] <jmkasunich> 55 a night, if you get it for a full week
[01:44:00] <jmkasunich> he'll be there that long, I won't
[01:44:35] <jmkasunich> 1-6 nights is $95, 7 or more is $55
[01:45:24] <rayh> Ah that's the difference. He's coming over on thursday before.
[01:46:12] <jmkasunich> if it wasn't for that "family first" thing, I might consider just extending my stay
[01:46:46] <rayh> I know the feeling. It would be good to have you there the longer time.
[01:46:59] <jmkasunich> but Beth is going to a jewelers convention thing the preceding weekend... we'll just miss each other Sunday
[01:47:26] <jmkasunich> so if I extended my stay after fest, it would be well over a week that we wouldn't see each other
[01:47:38] <jmkasunich> and if I extended it before, there'd be nobody home to feed the dog
[01:47:41] <rayh> Ouch. Then maybe you could sneak away for that weekend before.
[01:47:55] <rayh> Bring the dog. Terry just asked if he could.
[01:48:13] <jmkasunich> trust me, you don't want our dog there
[01:48:22] <rayh> You'd just have to get it certified as a "service" dog.
[01:48:41] <jmkasunich> he's fairly young (~2), a rescued stray, and poorly trained
[01:48:52] <jmkasunich> he _hates_ it when people don't pay attention to him
[01:49:14] <rayh> Looks like there will be a lot to do at the developers sessions.
[01:49:31] <jmkasunich> yep... I'm really looking forward to it
[01:49:55] <jmkasunich> was hoping I could get something built with this mini-servo thing... but I doubt it
[01:50:25] <rayh> Someone asked about IRC during the event. I could run one and keep watch.
[01:50:37] <rayh> Much of the conversation will be a bit beyond me.
[01:51:15] <jmkasunich> I doubt that
[01:51:33] <rayh> Once you guys get into code and rt kinds of things...
[01:52:14] <rayh> My code bound is somewhere around asking what a specific function will give and how it will relate to others.
[01:52:44] <jmkasunich> well we'll probably be splitting up into groups focused on different topics... some will be RT and such, some will be user interface related
[01:53:05] <rayh> Right. I have been looking at the qt tool kit.
[01:53:22] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich likes GTK better
[01:53:31] <rayh> License?
[01:53:43] <jmkasunich> GPL - GTK is used by Gimp
[01:53:58] <rayh> Have you done anything with glade
[01:54:05] <jmkasunich> nope...
[01:54:24] <jmkasunich> I'm a dinosaur... still coding in straight C, without IDEs or GUI builders or such
[01:54:28] <rayh> My problem is a need for good large letters.
[01:54:50] <rayh> tk 8.5 is supposed to do it. As is qt.
[01:55:26] <jmkasunich> yeah... GTK has support for fonts and sizing, but gawd is it a pain in the a$$
[01:55:29] <rayh> My problem with pure code for displays is the long delays waiting for the next compile
[01:55:59] <jmkasunich> long? even on my antique computers, if I only change a file or two, a make takes 10-20 seconds
[01:56:28] <rayh> That doesn't sound as bad as I imagined. But you know how to write C.
[01:57:27] <rayh> The notion of classes and inheritance in a gui is interesting to me.
[01:57:31] <jmkasunich> when you say "pure code for displays" do you mean compiled instead of interpreted?
[01:57:57] <rayh> Because you can change whole sets of objects with a single change.
[01:58:25] <rayh> Seems to me that is needed with a EMC front end.
[01:58:43] <jmkasunich> probably
[01:59:11] <jmkasunich> whenever I start thinking/talking about front ends, or object oriented stuff like classes and inheritance, it makes my head hurt
[01:59:13] <nevyn_> nevyn_ is now known as nevyn
[01:59:27] <rayh> I know that feeling.
[02:00:28] <jmkasunich> dang....
[02:00:51] <jmkasunich> trying to take some pics for an ebay auction... taken the same pic three times, and can't seem to get it focused
[02:01:58] <rayh> I've never done that ebay auction thing. Probably it will be done by my kids when they inherit all my goodies.
[02:02:26] <jmkasunich> sometimes it's more of a pain than it's worth...
[02:02:40] <jmkasunich> but these A-B panelview thingies seem to be popular
[02:04:35] <rayh> Good. Duty is calling and she can not be ignored much longer. Catch you tomorrow.
[03:37:30] <siado> greetings all
[03:41:46] <A-L-P-H-A> loha
[03:42:09] <siado> heh
[03:42:21] <siado> haven't heard that in a few months
[03:43:48] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[03:44:07] <siado> i moved from hawaii last july...
[03:45:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm far from Hawaii.
[03:45:11] <A-L-P-H-A> Toronto!
[03:45:20] <siado> oof
[03:45:27] <siado> too cold for me
[03:49:59] <siado> i hate to even ask...
[03:50:13] <siado> but has anyone tried porting EMC to OSX?
[03:50:19] <siado> with any luck?
[03:55:05] <jmkasunich> goodnight all
[03:55:15] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich is now known as jmk_away
[04:13:47] <alpha> how do I change the colors in xchat?
[04:14:00] <alpha> err. the nick colors on the side right side.
[04:22:06] <jasoncox> hi all, I have just installed DBI-4.08 onto a pc and now I am having trouble with my stepper drive. If I run IO exercise I can move the stepper but jogging dosn't work
[04:22:25] <jasoncox> parralle port at 0xdfa0 and is set in emc.ini
[04:34:06] <jasoncox> my driver also needs step/direction and it appears that STEPPING_TYPE has been removed from the EMCMOT section, so how do we set this now?
[07:12:35] <ve7it> /msg nickserv set hide email on
[07:16:49] <ve7it> anyone up this late?
[09:07:20] <nevyn> it's not late.
[09:07:30] <nevyn> hi paul_c
[09:09:07] <paul_c> Morning.
[09:11:34] <nevyn> evening morning whatever...
[09:28:37] <Imperator_> morning all
[09:28:39] <alpha> hi
[09:57:12] <alpha> how do I install mplayer? I can't use "apt-get install mplayer" says couldn't find package.
[09:58:41] <paul_c> apt-get install kaffeine
[09:59:16] <alpha> caffeine sounds like a very good idea
[09:59:52] <nevyn> there are packages availible.
[10:00:19] <nevyn> marilat.fr
[10:00:41] <paul_c> mplayer is not a Debian maintained package.
[10:00:47] <nevyn> no it's not.
[10:01:27] <paul_c> and once you start installing non-free, stuff can break.
[10:02:24] <nevyn> while the packages of mplayer availible from marilat.fr suck (they're compiled k6 without 3dnow) they do work
[10:02:42] <nevyn> paul_c: installing non-free from the debian archive is no problem.
[10:13:05] <alpha> I just want music.
[10:13:06] <alpha> :(
[10:16:23] <paul_c> * paul_c hands a radio to alpha
[10:18:42] <alpha> www.somafm.com
[10:18:43] <alpha> :P
[10:18:47] <alpha> but I can't get any thing to work.
[10:18:55] <alpha> k, time to try and get mplayer to compile.
[10:21:11] <alpha> xmms works. :)
[10:21:16] <alpha> horray!
[10:21:17] <alpha> sound!
[12:42:34] <A-L-P-H-A> sup people?
[12:52:01] <les> morning
[12:52:48] <A-L-P-H-A> what's up les?
[12:53:11] <les> not much...nice day here for a change
[12:53:14] <A-L-P-H-A> bbiab... gonna make some food. :)
[12:53:16] <les> hi 70
[12:53:18] <A-L-P-H-A> Nice day here too.
[12:53:29] <A-L-P-H-A> uh... -15 I think. Celcius.
[12:53:38] <les> yikes
[12:53:51] <les> well it has been snowy here
[12:53:58] <A-L-P-H-A> http://weathernetwork.ca/weather/cities/can/Pages/CAON0696.htm -8 Celcium
[12:54:01] <les> but not today!
[12:54:12] <A-L-P-H-A> snowboarding later.
[12:54:12] <A-L-P-H-A> :D
[12:54:20] <A-L-P-H-A> bbiab
[12:54:40] <les> k
[13:25:25] <A-L-P-H-A> back! :)
[14:35:42] <paul_c> Morning Steve
[14:35:52] <SteveStallings> Hi Paul
[14:38:58] <paul_c> Yay... Things might be looking up....
[14:39:22] <SteveStallings> You knew Ray was about to join?
[14:39:30] <SteveStallings> Hi Ray
[14:39:58] <paul_c> * paul_c hides
[14:41:15] <rayh> Hi Guys. While the mouse is away the cats will play?
[14:42:05] <paul_c> The Qt DRO readout connects to a running EMC....
[14:43:22] <rayh> It does. Great. And where can I find this code?
[14:44:40] <rayh> Did you use a revised emcsh as a lib.
[14:46:08] <paul_c> * paul_c is commenting the code....
[14:46:23] <rayh> Ah.
[14:46:41] <rayh> Morning Steve. Say I really like what you've done with Linuxcnc.org.
[14:47:56] <SteveStallings> ??? nothing much has changed in weeks
[14:48:39] <rayh> Guess that shows how often I get there.
[14:48:54] <rayh> I liked the events page very much.
[14:49:25] <rayh> Course part of the nice look might have been the new thunderbird here.
[14:49:54] <SteveStallings> ok, the evvents are new
[14:50:07] <rayh> I never cease to be amazed at the current abilities of Linux 4.6 and associated packages.
[14:50:30] <SteveStallings> well, the page is loosely formatted and presentation varies a lot depending on screen size and browser
[14:50:38] <rayh> Thanks again to Paul for moving us toward this.
[14:51:16] <rayh> Ah. I did not look at the code only the render.
[14:51:44] <rayh> I should have said firefox a minute ago.
[14:53:41] <paul_c> * paul_c sends Ray a tarball.
[14:53:48] <rayh> content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0"
[14:53:50] <SteveStallings> My test machine has BDI-RC46 on the second partition of a dual boot machine. Can it be updated to BDI4.xx using APTGET or is a new install in order?
[14:54:12] <paul_c> Sure you can use apt to update.
[14:54:44] <SteveStallings> yes, I use Frontpage, but not its formatting wizards, just basics
[14:54:49] <paul_c> See the Debian install wiki page for the gory details.
[14:55:29] <rayh> Nice compact html, Steve. Best I've seen with that generator.
[14:56:46] <SteveStallings> the instructions on the wiki page will update from the 2.4 kernel to 2.6?
[14:56:55] <rayh> Might change that to content=" SteveS with a bit of assistance from Microsoft FrontPage 4.0"
[14:57:56] <SteveStallings> or is Step 1 what covers the kernel update?
[14:58:05] <paul_c> SteveStallings: It should do... If it doesn't, let me know.
[14:58:52] <rayh> This rc46 upgrade will be a fascinating experiment.
[14:58:59] <SteveStallings> really need to get my Linux legs, seems I never have time to run it until I need to do something NOW
[14:59:30] <paul_c> refresh the wiki page - There was a minor error...
[14:59:48] <rayh> paul_c: What about the LILO v GRUB. Steve will need to edit lilo.conf and run lilo before reboot.
[15:00:07] <paul_c> Live uses grub
[15:00:33] <paul_c> and apt should take care of both cases.
[15:01:19] <SteveStallings> is the trailing ./ in your source link real or an editing artifact?
[15:01:59] <paul_c> should be dot-slash
[15:02:02] <rayh> Ah. It was my knoppix that used lilo. Sorry.
[15:03:37] <SteveStallings> OK, my test machine is at the office. I'll have Linux users visiting at our Tuesday night CNC meeting. Will try the update sometime before then so I will have "experts" on hand to help with recovery if needed.
[15:12:47] <rayh> paul_c: That is fairly compact code for what you get.
[15:13:07] <rayh> Don't much care for the lcd display but...
[15:14:05] <paul_c> It was only a small test to see how hard it would be.
[15:14:45] <danfalck> morning guys
[15:14:59] <paul_c> Morning Dan
[15:15:41] <danfalck> we've been building cork guns this week (the kids and I)
[15:15:49] <danfalck> lots of fun
[15:15:56] <jmk_away> jmk_away is now known as jmkasunich
[15:16:01] <danfalck> paul_c: QT DRO?
[15:16:14] <rayh> Morning John, Dan
[15:16:52] <paul_c> danfalck: A simple Qt based display to hook to a running EMC
[15:17:11] <paul_c> just has an X,Y,Z readout
[15:17:35] <danfalck> ok
[15:18:24] <paul_c> primarily, a piece of test code to explore the possiblties of using Qt for a new GUI
[15:19:14] <jmkasunich> is Qt usable from plain C, or do you need C++?
[15:22:48] <paul_c> Oh C++ for sure.
[15:23:41] <jmkasunich> bummer
[15:24:52] <jmkasunich> that means either 1) we keep dependencies for both GTK _and_ Qt, or 2) somebody has to re-write halscope and halmeter to use Qt, or 3) I need to learn C++ and do (2)
[15:25:09] <paul_c> rayh: Add "A duffer's Introduction to C++" to the events for Sunday would you...
[15:25:37] <jmkasunich> it's gonna take more than an introduction to get me doing C++
[15:25:38] <paul_c> jmkasunich: How about qtscope
[15:26:00] <jmkasunich> what is that?
[15:26:41] <paul_c> An RT scope written in Qt for a comedi device.
[15:26:54] <jmkasunich> something that already exists?
[15:27:29] <paul_c> Have hacked around with it a little, and it should be possible to use much of the code for other "scope" like tools.
[15:27:34] <jmkasunich> URL?
[15:27:59] <paul_c> http://www.cn.stir.ac.uk/~mhh1/qtscope/
[15:28:47] <jmkasunich> not much info there
[15:29:24] <jmkasunich> have to dl the source and dig I guess
[15:29:28] <jmkasunich> sigh...
[15:30:18] <jmkasunich> hmmmm qwt looks interesting
[15:31:52] <rayh> paul_c: want to send the toplevel make for me so I don't have to continue to use the bastardized one I've got here.
[15:32:15] <jmkasunich> what license is Qt under?
[15:32:39] <paul_c> dual GPL & proprietory
[15:33:17] <jmkasunich> I notice that Qtscope uses Qwt, which has it's own license
[15:33:25] <rayh> ah my problem'
[15:33:39] <jmkasunich> (GPL with modifications making it somewhat LGPL-like)
[15:33:41] <paul_c> rayh: The top level make is the same in CVS - To build the qtdro, I cd'd to src/emc/qt_dro
[15:34:19] <rayh> Got it now.
[15:34:22] <jepler> have any of you heard of this software "orocos"?
[15:34:42] <paul_c> Yes
[15:34:44] <rayh> Yes. orocos is an EU initiative
[15:34:59] <rayh> We've had contact with several of the lead developers.
[15:35:40] <jepler> some developer (Herman Bruyninckx) contacted me and asked whether I thought AXIS could be made into a front-end for Orocos.
[15:37:34] <gezr> morning ya'll
[15:38:05] <paul_c> Orocos uses a realtime CORBA in place of NML - Not sure of the details, as I've only had a brief look at it.
[15:38:57] <rayh> Herman wrote a very good paper on rt.
[15:42:32] <dave-e> gosh, it is quiet...isn't Ray stirring the pot this morning. ;-)
[15:43:22] <rayh> Off playing with a qt gui.
[15:43:34] <dave-e> good for you
[15:43:40] <rayh> * rayh passes the stirring stick.
[15:43:46] <rayh> Paul wrote it.
[15:43:52] <dave-e> to John?
[15:44:06] <jmkasunich> me? I never stir things up!
[15:44:13] <nevyn> hrm robin_sz isn't here for his OO tute ;)
[15:44:14] <dave-e> Yeh, right
[15:44:32] <dave-e> at least John is awake.
[15:44:45] <nevyn> hi rayh
[15:44:51] <dave-e> so how is the Qt GUI
[15:45:03] <nevyn> objecty.
[15:45:23] <jmkasunich> I'm simultaneously wishing Fest was next week (cause I need the vacation from day job) and six months from now (so I could actually be ready for it)
[15:45:46] <dave-e> nice if you can arrange it.
[15:46:05] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Tip - Leave all preparations until the 22nd April.
[15:46:15] <jmkasunich> not
[15:46:29] <rayh> Hi nevyn. Yes it is OO. And thanks for the help with an intro to it.
[15:46:56] <jmkasunich> I need to get back into EMC coding... last few months have been worthless (as you can tell from my absence from commit logs)
[15:46:57] <nevyn> rayh: so you're getting somewhere with it? :)
[15:47:23] <nevyn> I keep wondering about off board pulse generation.
[15:47:51] <jmkasunich> off board as in external hardware?
[15:48:04] <nevyn> with the cost of small micro's (atmel etc)
[15:48:07] <nevyn> jmkasunich: yeah
[15:48:24] <jmkasunich> now you're talking my language.... leave the GUI stuff for other folks
[15:48:52] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is a bit-twiddler at heart
[15:49:21] <nevyn> the gui stuff isn't a difficult problem. (gui design kinda is but it's hard from a people perspective more than a technical perspective)
[15:49:22] <jmkasunich> (I hope "twiddle" doesn't have some obscene meaning in English)
[15:49:39] <paul_c> depends on the context
[15:49:57] <nevyn> nope a bit twiddler is someone who twiddles bits which is perfectly valid in this context. also bit flipper is occasionally used.
[15:50:08] <nevyn> anyway
[15:50:15] <nevyn> offboard pulse generation
[15:50:19] <nevyn> hi paul_c
[15:50:21] <rayh> I'm getting so I can read a bit of OO
[15:50:23] <jmkasunich> I was referring to English vs. American, not english
[15:50:40] <jmkasunich> anyway... off board pulses
[15:50:47] <jmkasunich> seen the G200x lately?
[15:50:56] <nevyn> I've heard good things.
[15:51:05] <rayh> at my age flipper is a dolphin.
[15:51:17] <nevyn> flipper and skippy right ;)
[15:51:54] <jmkasunich> most of the G200x folks want to move the entire interpreter, or at least the entire motion controller, into the external hardware
[15:52:04] <jmkasunich> cause they want windoze
[15:52:10] <jmkasunich> and it can't do realtime
[15:52:21] <nevyn> jmkasunich: a member of my model engineering club just paid $4k for a offboard generator drivers and deskcnc
[15:52:33] <nevyn> jmkasunich: windows can't do hard realtime.
[15:52:50] <nevyn> jmkasunich: not really hard.
[15:53:05] <jmkasunich> right, as in new velocity commands every 1mS
[15:53:22] <dave-e> or 100 us
[15:53:54] <jmkasunich> my own preference for the G200x is a dumb mode, where it simply makes pulses, drives DACs, reads encoders and ADCs, etc
[15:53:58] <nevyn> thing is.. busylooping a micro at 10Mhz will give better resolution than rtlinux or whatever.
[15:54:04] <jmkasunich> leave the motion control in a RT kernel module
[15:54:24] <jmkasunich> agreed - for making step pulses
[15:54:43] <jmkasunich> actually, the G200x uses real hardware, not a micro
[15:55:03] <nevyn> real hardware?
[15:55:07] <nevyn> 555?
[15:55:20] <jmkasunich> adders, dividers, etc... IOW, all axes run in parallel
[15:55:23] <gezr> its got some brains inside
[15:55:50] <gezr> but windows is no easier a control interface then llinux is, I dont get it
[15:55:51] <jmkasunich> the Rabbit micro simply passes data from the USB or ethernet comms to the CPLD that does the pulse generation
[15:57:22] <nevyn> gezr: people grok windows they don't grok linux
[15:57:43] <jepler> man, I hate win32
[15:57:52] <jepler> but don't get me started
[15:57:59] <nevyn> hrm I don't.. I hate win9x
[15:58:13] <jmkasunich> lol... win95 is the latest one I use
[15:58:16] <nevyn> but nt4,2k,2k3,xp all good
[15:58:41] <jepler> twice recently I've tried to figure out details of the win32 api, and the documentation (msdn) is all crap. The same is true for linux, but at least in that case I can read the source code
[15:59:02] <gezr> nevyn : thats true
[15:59:35] <nevyn> I dislike proprietary software but I don't dislike windows more or less than any other proprietary software
[15:59:39] <jepler> xp is not bad, for almost every linux app I use there's an xp equivalent.
[15:59:57] <jmkasunich> except for EMC ;-)
[16:00:21] <jmkasunich> we digress
[16:00:21] <gezr> I have a wintinendo and a wintv the wintv with a hd swap becomes my emc box
[16:00:49] <gezr> I have a great intrest in the QtDro
[16:00:55] <gezr> im a huge fan of QT
[16:01:03] <gezr> it gives that fancy win feeling
[16:01:20] <paul_c> gezr: Gerrorf...
[16:01:21] <jmkasunich> nevyn... what was your interest in offboard step gen... building one, or buying one like the G200x, or the Pico USC board
[16:01:24] <gezr> ive tried writting some of the tutorial apps :)
[16:01:39] <nevyn> jmkasunich: just random thoughts at this point.
[16:01:53] <nevyn> probably writing suppport for what's on the market already?
[16:02:10] <gezr> paul_c : so you wrote the dro?
[16:02:23] <jmkasunich> sooner or later, I will write a HAL driver for the G200x
[16:02:32] <jmkasunich> probably later at the rate I've been going lately
[16:02:50] <jmkasunich> likewise for the Pico board (that will be sooner, I have the board already)
[16:03:07] <paul_c> gezr: It is purely a demo & test code piece
[16:03:08] <nevyn> jmkasunich: honestly there's a bunch I'd rather do on the linux integration side of things.
[16:03:22] <gezr> paul_c : cool
[16:04:07] <jmkasunich> such as?
[16:04:29] <nevyn> jmkasunich: udev support
[16:04:36] <gezr> hmm, why couldnt a step pluse be outputted on a sound card?
[16:06:07] <rayh> I like what I see of the qt stuff so far.
[16:06:10] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich googles udev, and reads
[16:06:39] <gezr> where the line in's and such would become line outs, wouldnt that increase the frequency things could run at?
[16:07:21] <jmkasunich> user space device drivers? what the hell for, you can't do RT in userspace
[16:07:22] <rayh> paul_c: What are your impressions of the libgui idea now?
[16:07:39] <paul_c> 44KHz would be the limit, if it were possible.
[16:07:56] <gezr> paul_c : doesnt that double our existing rate?
[16:08:02] <jmkasunich> you'd have problems near zero speed, and also with generating a direction bit
[16:08:10] <jmkasunich> and of course, only one motor per sound card
[16:08:22] <gezr> one motor per speaker
[16:08:24] <jmkasunich> and then you have to deal with the wide variety of sound cards out there
[16:08:34] <gezr> it was just a thought
[16:08:44] <paul_c> rayh: Need to draw up a framework for a Qt lib.
[16:09:38] <gezr> jmkasunich : my current card has 4 stereo outputs
[16:09:52] <paul_c> gezr: Under perfect conditions, ~75KHz is doable with a fast processor.
[16:09:53] <jmkasunich> do you have register level documentation for it?
[16:09:57] <gezr> jmkasunich : the newer cards with a digital i/o line can carry a huge bit streams
[16:10:51] <gezr> jmkasunich : no I dont, I see what your saying though, I think a lot of the sound blasters have given the guts to the kernel developers, mainly allan cox I believe
[16:11:15] <anonimasu> hello everyone
[16:11:19] <gezr> im not trying to seed anything other then an idea
[16:11:48] <jmkasunich> 'scuse my negativity... too early in the morning for me to be receptive to new ideas ;-)
[16:11:51] <gezr> sound cards accept all sorts of midi type inputs and the likes, i was just t hinking outloud
[16:12:12] <nevyn> jmkasunich: udev is automatic device management it's not actual devices
[16:12:24] <gezr> jmkasunich : nothing to me is negative :)
[16:12:29] <nevyn> jmkasunich: so your dev tree becomes only what's ACTUALLY in your system
[16:13:07] <jmkasunich> instead of having half a million entries in there? I suppose that is a good thing ;-)
[16:13:39] <jmkasunich> but "how do it know" what is and isn't in your system? this isn't some plug-n-pray type monster is it?
[16:15:05] <jmkasunich> hmmm... google also found "uDev, a free PIC IDE with graphical simulator"
[16:15:09] <jmkasunich> that's more my speed
[16:15:12] <nevyn> heh
[16:16:28] <nevyn> jmkasunich: combined with some other bits of infastructure it provides functionality like consistant mounting of multiple usb mass storage devices
[16:16:41] <nevyn> so say you have a usbmass storage camera and a usbthumbdrive
[16:17:02] <jmkasunich> how does USB mass storage devices relate to EMC and realtime I/O devices like STG or Pico's board?
[16:17:10] <anonimasu> hm..
[16:17:27] <nevyn> it doesn't but currently emc means I can't have this functionality and I want it.
[16:17:42] <paul_c> nevyn: apt-get install emc
[16:17:56] <paul_c> It has had a few changes made for udev
[16:18:01] <nevyn> excellent
[16:18:07] <nevyn> did you put it in opt ? :)
[16:18:29] <paul_c> NO
[16:19:13] <nevyn> too big a change?
[16:19:26] <nevyn> or disagree that it's where it belongs?
[16:19:58] <paul_c> There are reasons for leaving it in /usr/local - These will be discussed @ the codeFest
[16:20:26] <nevyn> where is this codeFest?
[16:20:56] <jmkasunich> maryland
[16:21:07] <paul_c> Gaithersburg, MD
[16:21:13] <jmkasunich> http://www.linuxcnc.org/EMC_news_history/Programmers-Fest2005.html
[16:21:19] <nevyn> that's a tad far to walk ;)
[16:21:26] <paul_c> wimp.
[16:21:33] <jmkasunich> where are you?
[16:22:29] <nevyn> melbourne VIC
[16:23:19] <rayh> How about a codeFest fundraiser; buck a mile for walk, canoe, bike.
[16:23:38] <nevyn> that's victoria australia for the geographically challenged. (if you can all assume I know MD is in the US you should know VIC is in australia)
[16:24:26] <jmkasunich> didn't know what VIC was, but guess Australia from Melbourne
[16:24:29] <rayh> Yes we should.
[16:25:10] <jmkasunich> sorry 'bout that
[16:25:41] <gezr> what week in April?
[16:25:54] <gezr> my jury duity starts march 28th
[16:25:59] <nevyn> hrm.. it's way to close to linux.conf.au anyway
[16:26:18] <paul_c> gezr: Last week of April
[16:26:43] <nevyn> linux.conf.au is from the 18th to the 26th or so .
[16:29:14] <rayh> The web and IRC is really changing our semantic map of things.
[16:29:50] <nevyn> paul_c: I do think adhering to the FHS is a worthy goal however breaking with established practice is ungood.
[16:30:55] <paul_c> It will be a gradual change over to FHS compliance, not a whizbang affair.
[16:32:05] <paul_c> The realtime modules are now in the lib/modules tree where they belong...
[16:32:44] <paul_c> The usr stuff will move in time, but not until it has been discussed in depth at NIST.
[16:35:21] <nevyn> I'm pleased it's on the roadmap. I do think just moving it with a simlink would be ok. but you're the boss ;)
[16:36:42] <nevyn> getting rid of the ugly link in homedir thing would also be really good.
[16:37:18] <paul_c> which "ugly link" ?
[16:43:45] <SteveStallings> yikes! it lives!
[16:43:56] <paul_c> bugger me )tm)
[16:44:00] <mshaver> hey... look at all these people in here...
[16:44:05] <jmkasunich> hi matt
[16:44:05] <rayh> The phoenix raises from the ashes!
[16:44:35] <mshaver> hi - just read Paul's emc-board email
[16:45:02] <mshaver> thought I'd see what all the hullaballoo was
[16:45:23] <mshaver> aren't we handling source formatting with 'indent'
[16:45:24] <nevyn> paul_c: the thing where you get all sorts of wierd errors unless you simlink from ~/emc to /usr/local/emc
[16:46:56] <paul_c> nevyn: I'll finish that discussion off later.
[16:47:09] <nevyn> ok
[16:47:16] <paul_c> mshaver: Only in the emc2 tree...
[16:47:36] <rayh> I might be able to propose a small disagreement in principle with Pauls listing of how forward progress ought to be made.
[16:47:40] <paul_c> And once the code is mature, there shouldn't be any reason to run it again.
[16:48:13] <jmkasunich> should be run before any commit, IMO
[16:48:21] <rayh> My thought is that if a developer plans on a re format,
[16:48:22] <jmkasunich> so the new code is indented correctly
[16:48:41] <rayh> do it on the existing and commit it before any revisions to the code itself.
[16:48:55] <jmkasunich> yes - an "indent only" commit
[16:49:14] <rayh> That way the changes to the code can be seen easily.
[16:49:23] <jmkasunich> the diff would be quite nasty, but if there are no functional changes, nobody has to read the diff
[16:49:36] <jepler> it still breaks "cvs annotate"
[16:49:44] <nevyn> isn't that the established procedure for most projects.
[16:49:44] <paul_c> The downside t running indent is when you are trying to track changes between different branches.
[16:50:07] <rayh> But doing this still should be an agreement between all those working on that specific file.
[16:50:11] <jmkasunich> well hopefully it would have been run before the branch was made ;-)
[16:50:40] <cradek> I think it's best to never reformat.
[16:51:03] <paul_c> reformat early on in the development of new code.
[16:51:15] <cradek> that's not reformatting, it's formatting
[16:51:26] <mshaver> Are the interpreter files in question indented the right way? Perhaps we should do what Ray & John just said - fix the indenting on these mature files and stick to it. Regarding Paul's comment on differences between branches, the branch maintainer's should probably ensure that their branch is re-indented at the same time.
[16:51:27] <cradek> sure, pick a style at the beginning and stick with it
[16:51:34] <nevyn> it's best not to accept incorrectly formated code.
[16:52:38] <rayh> We've seen this happen at least twice in recent memory. The interp and ebo.
[16:52:59] <jmkasunich> a while back I think it was mentioned that the CVS scripts _can_ theoretically be configured to run indent on committed code automatically
[16:53:10] <paul_c> It's not the indentation of the code it's self I have a real issue with, it's indenting the compiler directives.
[16:53:13] <jmkasunich> at the time we decided it was more work than it was worth
[16:53:41] <rayh> We also need to look at our multiplicity of tags.
[16:53:49] <jmkasunich> right - indenting the # makes editor context tagging break
[16:53:53] <nevyn> jmkasunich: that's a really bad idea.
[16:53:58] <mshaver> I think what we should want is _consistent_ formatting. What do the kernel folks do about this?
[16:54:10] <paul_c> rayh: The last flap is the reason I raise the issue now, and not after the event.
[16:54:20] <rayh> Absolutely.
[16:54:52] <jmkasunich> nevyn: which idea is bad, indenting #, or enforcing indent at commit time?
[16:55:06] <nevyn> enforcing indent at commit time.
[16:55:12] <rayh> I know from a bit of experience on this. Long years ago paul rewrote some tickle.
[16:55:25] <rayh> Took me days to get round it.
[16:55:42] <rayh> I did forgive him though --
[16:55:54] <nevyn> that said I know of a project where the developers disagreed about tabs and spaces and size of tabs and they had a code control system that re-formated the code on checkout to the preference of the person checking it out
[16:55:56] <rayh> Cause the additions were well worth the time.
[16:56:18] <nevyn> but it's messy and not advisable.
[16:56:24] <nevyn> and doesn't really scale.
[16:56:25] <jmkasunich> emc2 has a "make indent" target, I usually run it before commits, to make sure it conforms to the preferred style
[16:56:49] <mshaver> I guess the kernel folks have Linus (or someone else) who controls the integration of changes? Or some automated system?
[16:57:55] <paul_c> The kernel folk have a Style guide in the docs directory
[16:58:16] <nevyn> mshaver: a bunch of people can commit to linus's bk tree but they all know the style guide for the kernel and if it doesn't meet it then it won't go in.
[16:58:34] <mshaver> * mshaver thinks I've been gone too long... Where'd all these people come from?
[16:58:53] <rayh> * rayh agrees
[16:58:55] <paul_c> (behind you)
[16:59:38] <rayh> * rayh also has to go make a fancy lunch for the fam before they all leave.
[17:00:14] <mshaver> So does the kernel's formatting style suit everyone? If so we could convert to that. Or, we could adopt a policy of preserving the existing formatting on a file by file basis.
[17:00:26] <rayh> I'll leave this on for a bit -- ksirc won't let me mark away from here.
[17:00:30] <nevyn> heh
[17:00:41] <SteveStallings> with the recent improvements in the approachability of EMC development and the creation of the WIKI, developer interest is picking up
[17:01:00] <paul_c> adopt on current per file basis - To do otherwise wuld break notes & other docs.
[17:01:01] <jmkasunich> we have a "CodingStyle" doc in the EMC2 tree that addresses formatting, I think it pretty much follows the kernel style already
[17:01:12] <nevyn> the kernel coding guide starts off.. "first print a copy of the GNU codeing guide.. then burn it. it won't help you format code but it's very theraputic " or words to that effect
[17:01:43] <mshaver> rayh: we'll have to talk soon if you're coming out here soon.
[17:01:50] <nevyn> rayh: /away foo doesn't work?
[17:02:03] <paul_c> The inerp is also one of the most sensative files - Break that and everyone suffers.
[17:02:20] <paul_c> \inerp\interpreter\
[17:02:39] <mshaver> I agree with Paul's appraisal of interpreter importance.
[17:02:46] <nevyn> is that what the guts of emcsh is in?
[17:03:25] <mshaver> By "break" you mean problems caused by actual code changes, not just formatting, right?
[17:04:18] <SteveStallings> has Keith Rumley been kept in the loop about formatting issues? he seem to be the one most likely to mess with the interpreter
[17:05:20] <paul_c> KR appeared to ignore any advice and/or requests last time round
[17:06:01] <paul_c> which was one reason his offerings did not get rolled in when they were passed over to me.
[17:06:43] <SteveStallings> oh
[17:07:38] <mshaver> Perhaps we could review and test Keith's changes, and adopt those that prove to be worthwhile. I'm assuming that Paul & John are the most heavily involved in current development, so I would have to defer to them as to what is "worthwhile".
[17:07:49] <paul_c> taking a diff and wading through 4,000 lines looking for a couple of small changes is not fun.
[17:08:32] <mshaver> Is there an "intelligent" diff? One that ignores formatting changes?
[17:08:44] <paul_c> not that I'm aware of.
[17:08:59] <mshaver> too bad...
[17:09:31] <paul_c> IF the reformatting had been done with indent, it may have been possible to isolate the changes.
[17:09:49] <paul_c> but indent doesn't do # directives.
[17:10:18] <mshaver> Well, my own opinion at this moment is that while additional developers are good, they'll have to "get with the program" as far as formatting goes to make their changes "reviewable".
[17:10:44] <jmkasunich> what if somebody (preferrably KR) ran indent with the same rules on both his code and the existing code... could those two results be diff'ed to get the real changes?
[17:11:31] <mshaver> As far as directives goes, they need to be kept in a format that is compatible with the syntax hightlighting features that everyone is using.
[17:12:23] <mshaver> jmkasunich: that should isolate the actual changes
[17:13:45] <jmkasunich> once the real changes are isolated, they can be reviewed, and if appropriate, added to the main file... KR's strangely formatted one would go to /dev/null
[17:13:58] <mshaver> Are these EMC1 issues only (ie. formatting is a settled issue in EMC2)?
[17:14:16] <paul_c> It depends on how extreme the formatting is on one of the original files - indent doesn't always produce repeatable results.
[17:14:56] <paul_c> mshaver: Primarilly EMC(1) concerns, yes.
[17:15:02] <jmkasunich> put it this way, it's an exercise that _might_ work, without a lot of labor... if it fails, it only cost a hour or so
[17:16:15] <paul_c> However... Any "Policy Document" needs to be committed by the Chairman.
[17:16:55] <mshaver> oh man...
[17:16:56] <paul_c> and perhaps the Cairman should also be responsible for deciding who does the code review (if any)
[17:17:00] <rayh> If I remember right Keith started by moving the interp code into his MS-OS dev environment.
[17:17:19] <paul_c> dos2unix fixed that.
[17:17:20] <rayh> That is what caused the reformat.
[17:19:28] <SteveStallings> Speaking of chairman (actually we have a president).... when, where, how do we do Board of Directors election this year since the EMC meetings are sort of split?
[17:19:43] <mshaver> As I haven't been around much lately, I'm not sure I know what's best. But i'll try to do the best I can. Are John & Paul in agreement over what the policy should be?
[17:19:46] <paul_c> (there is something peverted about usng M$ to edit linux code...)
[17:20:24] <mshaver> paul_c: that alone makes me somewhat dubious of these edits
[17:20:44] <jmkasunich> IMO, the policy should be circulated on the board list, and discussed/revised till all agree with it
[17:20:58] <paul_c> jmkasunich: agreed.
[17:21:21] <mshaver> jmkasunich: OK! I'll post some sort of proposal!
[17:21:31] <jmkasunich> start with Paul's
[17:21:41] <mshaver> OK!
[17:21:54] <mshaver> I'll reply to it...
[17:22:06] <rayh> Not to stand in front of a steamroller here but IMO
[17:22:32] <paul_c> Perhaps once it has been agreed on, cc'd to the dev list ?
[17:22:59] <rayh> we need input from folk like jepler, cradek, alex, and other people who spend large portions of their life writing
[17:23:12] <paul_c> agreed.
[17:23:13] <jmkasunich> agreed... cc to dev list isn't a bad idea
[17:23:43] <rayh> Or dev list with summaries to directors.
[17:24:55] <paul_c> I was thinkg more, posting to the dev list after the board has had a chance to finalise the draft.
[17:25:27] <LawrenceG> rayh -- good morning.... long time no chat... U still using cp1?
[17:26:05] <rayh> But that leaves 2 folk who code regular 2 who can code and one swing vote who would hate to have his coding style imposed on anyone.
[17:26:17] <rayh> Hi Lawrence.
[17:26:25] <rayh> Long time.
[17:27:43] <LawrenceG> I added another module that I used to turn bearing ends on a shaft (3 steps for bearing, locknut, coupler)
[17:28:03] <paul_c> rayh: I am willing to discuss styles and reach a common standard - Better that than have someone dump and run with their own ideas
[17:28:28] <rayh> Great. I've been working just a bit on making all that a part of the mini editor interface.
[17:29:18] <rayh> When we arrive at a standard, will it be applied to all sf modules?
[17:30:02] <paul_c> If the board directs it, I don't see why not.
[17:31:26] <rayh> So we will want to use some sort of standard that has a tool to conform a file.
[17:32:03] <SteveStallings> Is any significant portion of the existing code out of compliance with likely standards? If so how will it be brought into compliance?
[17:32:06] <paul_c> On the other hand, if the board directs that consistancy should be maintained on a per file basis, I can live with that.
[17:32:49] <rayh> That thought had not occurred to me. Are different langs up for different styles.
[17:33:01] <paul_c> SteveStallings: Most of the original code uses two space tabbing
[17:33:14] <paul_c> I prefer four spcae tabs.
[17:34:17] <jmkasunich> EMC2 uses 4 space tabs
[17:34:41] <rayh> My worst nightmare is line length. I consistently violate and some editors hard wrap.
[17:34:54] <jmkasunich> re: bringing things into compliance... indent works with C, but not C++ code
[17:35:01] <SteveStallings> sounds simple, does automating this change break things
[17:35:30] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Sme small chnages to a C++ file, and indent usually works.
[17:35:55] <jmkasunich> but when it doesn't, you don't know until a compile fails... makes me nervous
[17:36:13] <jmkasunich> what if something that indent does breaks the code but _doesn't_ cause compile errors
[17:36:20] <LawrenceG> Ray... what is your email?... will send you the tar file
[17:36:26] <jmkasunich> the indent maintainers clearly state that it isn't for C++
[17:36:35] <paul_c> SteveStallings: Running indent on the rs274ngc files destroys much of Tom's formatting
[17:36:50] <SteveStallings> 8-(
[17:37:04] <jmkasunich> I take it that Tom's formatting is considered good?
[17:37:04] <paul_c> It makes a mess of the staic arrays that are declared.
[17:37:09] <rayh> rehenry --you knows what goes here-- up.net
[17:37:50] <rayh> Thanks Lawrence.
[17:38:40] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Tom used the 2 space tabbing
[17:40:27] <rayh> Can indent be made to handle Tom's static arrays...
[17:40:42] <rayh> or can the static arrays be made compatable with indent?
[17:41:13] <paul_c> not without some messing arround with indent directives.
[17:41:53] <rayh> I guess this is a part of my question about using a single tool repository wide...
[17:42:42] <rayh> I don't think that setting some C code apart from others in style will help us with
[17:43:18] <rayh> the kinds of problems that we had with submissions from either Keith or ebo
[17:44:04] <rayh> If we use a single style system wide, I'll conform the tickle stuff to it.
[17:44:30] <paul_c> As jepler pointed out - indenting on existing sources also breaks the cvs web tools
[17:44:58] <jmkasunich> tcl doesn't use the same syntax does it? like {} for blocks of code?
[17:45:05] <paul_c> So I would favour following styles on a per file basis.
[17:45:40] <rayh> I'd prefer reformatting all of it and putting it in a new set of modules.
[17:45:40] <jmkasunich> exactly what CVS web tools get broken?
[17:45:56] <SteveStallings> is there any way that indent can read directives for itself from within the files?
[17:46:33] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Will find you a sample.
[17:46:39] <mshaver> paul_c: I'm typing a reply to your e-mail now. In it I say, "I don't think that anyone has the perfect discipline, or unerring accuracy to apply a formatting style with the required consistency by manual means. Therefore, I propose that all files be formatted by passing them through a filter program that will apply the agreed upon formatting & style rules, prior to committing the file to CVS."
[17:47:27] <jmkasunich> matt: that's all well and good, given that such a program exists for the language in question
[17:47:59] <mshaver> This could be on a file to file basis, but I think it would be best to have the formatting automated. I'm assuming that tools like this exist (indent).
[17:49:07] <rayh> I think that we will all have to accept the fact that such formatters trash some individual asthetic preferences.
[17:49:44] <mshaver> If there are no tools for a language that we use, then we will just need to prohibit formatting changes for solely stylistic reasons (limit submitted changes to functional changes only).
[17:51:17] <rayh> In that case, we should establish some minimalist rules like indent 4
[17:51:31] <rayh> line length 70,
[17:51:49] <rayh> and \n whenever ....
[17:51:59] <jmkasunich> actually, if its a file with no automated tools available, the rule should be "all additions/revisions follow the exsiting style of the file", for readability
[17:52:25] <jmkasunich> if the file is indented 2, and you add a 20 line patch, you should indent it 2
[17:52:28] <paul_c> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/emc/emc/src/emcmot/emcmot.c?r1=1.96&r2=1.97&only_with_tag=MAIN - Minimal changes made here... But any diff against versions earlier than this produce a huge file.
[17:52:42] <rayh> I'd still like us to get away from each file it's own style.
[17:53:17] <jmkasunich> ok paul, now I know what you mean
[17:53:40] <jmkasunich> the tools aren't "broken" tho, they simply are telling you what happened.
[17:54:06] <paul_c> or http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/emc/emc/src/emcmot/emcmot.c?r1=1.106&r2=1.95&only_with_tag=MAIN
[17:54:13] <rayh> Let me propose an example of the need for common styles.
[17:54:42] <rayh> We have a directory for 274 aux stuff.
[17:54:51] <paul_c> agreed - the tools them selves are not broken, but it does make it difficult to see minor code changes.
[17:55:16] <rayh> We write a front end that is a common widget to write/exec/read stuff
[17:55:21] <rayh> using it.
[17:55:38] <rayh> Matt writes a module for that that does bolt holes
[17:55:48] <jmkasunich> right - the point in time at which a file was reformatted is kind of a wall... you can diff very old revs against the one just prior to the reformat, or new ones agains the one just after the reformat
[17:56:15] <rayh> Lawarence writes one that grites gcode for speaker grills
[17:56:40] <rayh> Each new plug in becomes it's own style.
[17:56:59] <rayh> After a bit we need to upgrade the common display widget.
[17:57:15] <rayh> and this upgrade requires working across the range of plug ins.]
[17:57:29] <rayh> Now you've got to work with all kinds of different styles.
[17:57:40] <jmkasunich> these plug-ins are simply source code files?
[17:58:10] <rayh> Whatever. I was thinking of C like JonE wrote initially
[17:58:58] <jmkasunich> style has no effect whatsoever on whether the files will "work" together, only on how hard it is for a developer to "work" with them when reading stuff in more than one file
[17:59:12] <jmkasunich> in any case, ALL "new" files should use the same style
[17:59:32] <jmkasunich> the file-by-file variations should only be preserved where they already exist
[17:59:34] <rayh> Granted but why should one developer be required to rmember a dozen different styles and conform
[18:00:11] <rayh> And that's my point each new addition to my imaginary 274 might come from a different developer with a different style
[18:00:18] <jmkasunich> you don't remember them, you just look at the code you're inserting your stuff into and do it the same way
[18:00:46] <jmkasunich> new additions should follow the (soon to be) published guidelines... period.
[18:00:46] <rayh> bs You don't know how old i am and how set in my ways.
[18:01:08] <rayh> Then our existing code should be made to conform.
[18:01:51] <rayh> So that when a new developer or an ebo or keith grabs some code and
[18:02:04] <rayh> begins to work, they know the standard we impose on everyone.
[18:02:11] <rayh> everyplace.
[18:02:46] <rayh> You all understand that this is only my opinion.
[18:02:46] <jmkasunich> I'm in favor of that... but as Paul and jepler said, it creates a sort of "wall" when doing diffs
[18:02:58] <Jymmm> * Jymmm recalls rayh mentioning something about log cabin, telegraph, and horseless carriage, so....
[18:03:19] <rayh> Yes it does and we need to make that wall a clear separation.
[18:03:34] <rayh> snowshoes
[18:03:46] <jmkasunich> not made any simpler by the fact that we have multiple active branches
[18:04:00] <rayh> Yep
[18:04:09] <jmkasunich> the reformat should ideally be done in all branches at the same time, and no other changes made in that commit
[18:04:17] <rayh> Perhaps we ought to conform in the time between now and fest.
[18:04:42] <rayh> It will take time and effort.
[18:04:56] <jmkasunich> ie - all developers commit all outstanding changes, then one developer does an update, reformats, and commits with a message "reformat only, no real change", then everyone else updates and continues with their work
[18:05:11] <jmkasunich> that needs to be done in all active branches
[18:05:50] <rayh> Are there dead branches that we can remove.
[18:05:53] <jmkasunich> we need to decide if that is A) desireable, and B) practical
[18:06:00] <paul_c> Does the EMC(1) tree have an indent rule ?
[18:06:12] <jmkasunich> not that I'm aware of
[18:06:30] <mshaver> EMC1 has (or had) a .indentrc that Fred Proctor provided.
[18:06:50] <mshaver> Although the interpreter was always a separate item...
[18:07:55] <paul_c> OK... As I see it, we have three options...
[18:08:20] <paul_c> 1) impose strict indenting rules on all sources. New and old.
[18:08:32] <rayh> * rayh time to eat. brb
[18:08:50] <paul_c> 2) Recommend indenting/style on all new code.
[18:09:00] <Jymmm> rayh: from icebox or fresh huny?
[18:09:04] <Jymmm> hunt
[18:09:06] <paul_c> 3) Just let everyone follow their own agenda.
[18:09:28] <jmkasunich> 3 is _not_ a good plan
[18:09:42] <mshaver> OKJ, I vote for #3... ;)
[18:09:56] <paul_c> expanding on 2) rules for new code whilst maintaining status quo on mature files.
[18:10:17] <Jymmm> I missed the beginning of this, but is existing source so badly layed out ?
[18:10:34] <mshaver> Actually, my heart is in #1, but that may be too draconian to be practical.
[18:11:19] <paul_c> whilst #1 has it's merits, I would agree that it isn't practical after all this time.
[18:11:36] <paul_c> I favour #2 as a midle ground.
[18:12:19] <paul_c> #3 is just a path to serious discord.
[18:12:38] <Jymmm> * Jymmm raises hand
[18:12:45] <mshaver> Are the "mature files" consistently formatted now? Can someone who wants to make a change divine the existing format so as to be able to maintain it?
[18:13:12] <mshaver> OK, Jymm's turn...
[18:13:17] <paul_c> The old files generally adhere to a common format & style.
[18:13:29] <Jymmm> Isn't there code beautifiers out there?
[18:13:45] <paul_c> yes - it is called "indent"
[18:13:59] <Jymmm> indent as \t ?
[18:14:06] <paul_c> but it has trouble with some C++ code.
[18:14:15] <Jymmm> and it's the only one?
[18:14:44] <paul_c> probably others out there, but indent is the most common.
[18:15:47] <Jymmm> is the source so ugly as it is now?
[18:15:57] <jmkasunich> and the one found by default on just about any Linux box that has a compiler
[18:16:53] <paul_c> Jymmm: I can live with the style of the old code - I know where things are...
[18:17:11] <paul_c> * paul_c uses visual clues to locate some routines.
[18:18:39] <Jymmm> ah. I know I write in a certain style and I'm pretty stuck with that. If my code was to be run thru something then me to go back to even my own code I'd be goin "WTH?" but that's just me.
[18:19:27] <Jymmm> and I comment like crazy
[18:19:40] <paul_c> You see my point then - once you are acustomed to a particular style, a major reformat screws things up.
[18:19:47] <SteveStallings> gotta run some errands, will keep logging...
[18:19:54] <Jymmm> 8 lines of comments, 3 lines of code.
[18:20:12] <paul_c> comments are good.
[18:20:46] <Jymmm> paul_c: ppl like reading my style, just not writing my style =)
[18:20:54] <SteveStallings> SteveStallings is now known as SteveS-away
[18:22:27] <paul_c> But you get my drift when I say you get used to reading one style, iven if you don't use it your self ?
[18:23:00] <Jymmm> oh yeah. I usually dont read others code becasue of it.
[18:23:19] <Jymmm> There's is usually very perlish
[18:24:25] <Jymmm> paul_c: or BF
[18:25:11] <paul_c> Well... I've put forward three options for the board to debate. I'll see what turns up after tea.
[18:25:35] <Jymmm> paul_c heh, have you seen BF before?
[18:25:53] <paul_c> not familiar with the term.
[18:26:05] <Jymmm> paul_c: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
[18:26:21] <Jymmm> there's even a linux compiler
[18:26:41] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has
[18:26:47] <paul_c> OK.... On that note, I leave.
[18:26:51] <anonimasu> neat programming language
[18:27:02] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: Fooood....
[18:27:03] <mshaver> Now that I have high speed reliable net access, I can leave this on while I go do some other stuff. I'll be back after a while...
[18:27:30] <Jymmm> anonimasu it lives up to it's name
[18:30:21] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I havent really tried it
[18:30:22] <anonimasu> :)
[18:31:32] <anonimasu> I'll be back later kiosk time
[18:31:32] <Jymmm> anonimasu: here ya go... a hello world http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/hello_world.b
[18:31:48] <anonimasu> it looks like a bunch of fishes.
[18:31:53] <anonimasu> >+++++++++<-]>
[18:31:58] <Jymmm> that's BF
[18:32:02] <anonimasu> ;)
[18:32:04] <anonimasu> I know
[18:32:12] <anonimasu> hehe, "neat"
[18:32:14] <Jymmm> worse than RE
[18:33:03] <Jymmm> the debugging would make me go ... forget it!
[18:33:14] <jmkasunich> on that note...
[18:33:18] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich is now known as jmk_away
[18:46:58] <LawrenceG> Has anyone sucessfully installed the bdi 4.20 iso?.... 2 attempts here failed after most of the install completed
[18:47:57] <LawrenceG> error message was that anaconda failed with a bad window error after the x server started. Result is that disk is loaded
[18:48:08] <LawrenceG> with most of the goodies, but is not bootable
[19:02:55] <cradek> did you check the md5sum?
[19:17:52] <LawrenceG> yes.. md5 was fine... it may be memory... laptop only has 128mb for now and current distros like more. Last linux on laptop was a full blown rh 8 with emc.
[19:18:46] <danfalck> LawrenceG: paul was here last month and helped me through a problem with the compiler. It ended up being a bad memory stick
[19:19:12] <danfalck> we did a memcheck from the boot prompt and found the problem with the memory
[19:19:21] <danfalck> I think it was "memcheck"
[19:20:05] <rayh> I'm back.
[19:20:11] <danfalck> hi ray
[19:20:17] <rayh> Hi Dan
[19:20:27] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[19:20:44] <paul_c> danfalck: memtest86
[19:20:48] <danfalck> thanks
[19:24:24] <LawrenceG> will let memtest churn for a while....
[19:25:10] <paul_c> I did a test install from the ISO before uploading - The target system ran fine with just 128M of memory.
[19:26:40] <LawrenceG> Thanks Paul.... always nice to know it has worked..... it may be a video issue as well... by default, X seems to only setup a 640x480 screen although it can be tweaked to 1024x768
[19:27:23] <paul_c> Hrmm... The installer should be running in 600x600 by default.
[19:27:29] <paul_c> 800x600
[19:28:05] <LawrenceG> installer video looked fine... could have been 800x600... not quite full screen
[19:28:48] <LawrenceG> memtest is using 640x480 and its definately smaller
[19:29:44] <jmk_away> is there a way to avoid starting X during the install?
[19:30:04] <paul_c> yes, but text mode is broken.
[19:30:37] <jmk_away> bummer... text mode is a nice fallback when there are X problems
[19:30:47] <anonimasu> hm.. why is textmode broken?
[19:30:50] <LawrenceG> I'll start a download of the 4.18 iso and try that to see if there is any diff....
[19:30:57] <anonimasu> explain that a bit
[19:31:40] <paul_c> text mode crashes towards the end of the install.
[19:31:55] <jmk_away> any idea why?
[19:34:47] <LawrenceG> What class of pentium is a celeron 300? Are P5 compiles going to run?
[19:35:58] <jepler> celeron should work with p5 compiled software
[19:36:48] <LawrenceG> 4.18 iso downloading at 130k/s looks like I have time for coffee before it gets here!
[19:37:04] <jepler> celeron 300 is "Pentium II"-class CPU with different cache
[19:39:13] <paul_c> main test system is currently a 433MHz Celeron.
[19:40:27] <anonimasu> paul_c: ah ok.. during install
[19:40:28] <anonimasu> :)
[19:42:15] <LawrenceG> Question for any of you toolroom guys..... I have a bunch of old carbide pcb drills. I would like to rework these into 60 degree mechanical etching bits (basically by cutting off the drill portion and grinding the 1/8" stub). What type of diamond wheel do I buy to due this kind of tiny sharpening job?
[19:42:41] <jmk_away> les might know that...
[19:44:19] <paul_c> rough grind with a green grit wheel, finish gind with a CBN wheel...
[19:44:33] <paul_c> lap with a diamond stone
[19:45:05] <LawrenceG> paul.... for setting up a new box, what would you recommend, the bdi 4.20 image or install from the live rc46 cd?
[19:45:23] <paul_c> BDI-4.20
[19:45:36] <LawrenceG> CBN wheel? not famailar with that term
[19:45:55] <LawrenceG> thanks
[19:46:48] <paul_c> Cubic Boron Nitride
[19:47:01] <paul_c> only Diamond is harder.
[19:49:12] <LawrenceG> got to take the dog for a dodo.... back in a flash
[19:49:22] <paul_c> http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/tooling/archives/1200/1200cbn.asp
[19:59:21] <rayh> I've got a 1200 grit diamond impregnated wheel that I use for carbide sharpening.
[20:06:49] <jmk_away> have you guys ever been able to get carbide truly sharp? I mean like HSS, for making very fine cuts
[20:08:03] <paul_c> The only time I've used carbide miling cutters, they were cheap enough no to worry about resharpening.
[20:08:21] <jmk_away> I was referring more to lathe cutters
[20:08:32] <jmk_away> mill cutters are hard to resharpen anyway
[20:08:57] <anonimasu> hm.. the inserts I use are sharp..
[20:09:40] <jmk_away> sharp enough to cut well with a depth of cut of 0.001"?
[20:09:44] <anonimasu> but well, I dont worry about resharpening..
[20:09:56] <paul_c> indexable tips, I throw away when blunt. Brazed tip tools get used only for odd jobs.
[20:10:31] <paul_c> Carbide tipped tools do not perform well on light cuts.
[20:10:32] <anonimasu> jmk_away: how many mm is that?
[20:10:43] <paul_c> 0.001mm
[20:10:49] <anonimasu> um..
[20:10:50] <anonimasu> "
[20:10:56] <jmk_away> .0254mm
[20:11:02] <paul_c> 0.02mm... calculator playing up...
[20:11:06] <anonimasu> oh.. yes.. that shouldnt be a problem..
[20:11:29] <anonimasu> but you'd better take your finish cut a bit heavier to get a good surface finish..
[20:12:08] <jmk_away> actually the stuff I'm thinking about the finish cut would be finer... doing a bearing fit
[20:12:11] <paul_c> most suppliers recommend a min & max depth of cut.
[20:12:22] <jmk_away> think I'll stick to HSS
[20:12:24] <anonimasu> jmk_away: that has nothing to do with it.. :)
[20:12:33] <anonimasu> jmk_away: you can still get a bearing fit..
[20:12:59] <jmk_away> it is if your machine isn't accurate or rigid enough to hit the final diameter right on, and you have to sneak up on it
[20:13:47] <gezr> then your going to want to use a cutting form that can either take a very fine cut, or form the metal in the last little cut
[20:13:49] <jmk_away> sometimes if it's a tenth too big, I make another pass without any infeed... it takes off a tiny bit
[20:14:08] <anonimasu> you should look into your tool catalogue..
[20:14:18] <jmk_away> gezr - taking tiny cuts is what I do... but I've found HSS is better for that
[20:14:25] <paul_c> Sandvik TCMT-11-02-04-UF spec'd at 0.20-2.00mm DoC
[20:14:28] <gezr> when your removing the last .0005 or so, you can "rub" out the last bit
[20:14:39] <anonimasu> I usually dont worry that much about it.. :) but if you have trouble with it, you should check it
[20:14:52] <gezr> jmk_away : yeah hss is the shiz, cause you can control your cutting radius' form
[20:15:25] <anonimasu> you can always get a tool to cut what you want to cut..
[20:15:36] <gezr> jmk_away : or go to another method of cutting, sandpaper, honn stone, or the back side of a drill and pressure to roll form out the last bit
[20:15:57] <paul_c> Or grind.
[20:16:00] <anonimasu> yeah..
[20:16:00] <gezr> very light cuts tend to tear the metal away
[20:16:03] <anonimasu> paul_c: you stole my line
[20:16:26] <gezr> leaving a rough finish
[20:17:11] <jmk_away> thanks guys
[20:17:21] <jmk_away> * jmk_away heads out into the garage to do some milling
[20:17:25] <anonimasu> jmk_away: ^_^
[20:17:27] <anonimasu> good luck
[20:17:57] <anonimasu> I had a talk to my father about a new spindle motor..
[20:18:05] <jmk_away> the milling I'm doing today isn't the precision stuff I was talking about... 5" face mill
[20:18:20] <anonimasu> He suggested to use a huydralic motor..
[20:18:31] <anonimasu> and a electric motor & pump..
[20:18:34] <anonimasu> with a cooler..
[20:18:38] <jmk_away> eeewwww
[20:18:45] <jmk_away> leaky, drippy, inefficient
[20:19:00] <anonimasu> jmk_away: mount a 15 hp electric motor on your benchtop mill.
[20:19:02] <anonimasu> ;)
[20:19:09] <anonimasu> or whatever you have ;)
[20:19:38] <anonimasu> my main problem is the weight that I'd need to support..
[20:20:36] <jmk_away> if the machine isn't rigid enough to hold the weight of the motor, how's it gonna hold the cutting forces from all that HP... sounds like chatter to me
[20:21:13] <rayh> I serviced a hyd spindle system. Sheldon CNC.
[20:21:25] <rayh> Real mess to tune and keep accurate speeds.
[20:22:05] <jmk_away> http://home.att.net/~JEKasunich/vannorman/VN_Home.htm
[20:22:14] <jmk_away> my mill... 1.5HP and pretty rigid
[20:22:39] <anonimasu> hm, mine's at 2hp..
[20:22:47] <anonimasu> but when running at the speed I need I lack torque..
[20:23:06] <jmk_away> what kind of mill? B'port or clone? or something else
[20:23:21] <anonimasu> hm.. somthing else..
[20:24:23] <anonimasu> the trouble when cutting harder materials is that my spindle's too weak with the gearing I have it set at.. so the spindle rpm drops and the cutter breaks...
[20:24:38] <jmk_away> what speed do you need?
[20:25:03] <anonimasu> at most I want to be able to run 8000rpm...
[20:25:26] <jmk_away> what does the speed increase, belts, gears?
[20:25:33] <anonimasu> belts & gears right now..
[20:25:41] <jmk_away> lot of losses there
[20:25:45] <anonimasu> but the gears vibrate at higher speed..
[20:25:51] <anonimasu> so they are going away..
[20:25:56] <LawrenceG> lg is back.... 4.18 at 48% download, 1hr on memtest with no errors
[20:26:04] <anonimasu> but that dosent solve the problem..
[20:26:14] <jmk_away> what about spindle lube... grease in bearings eats a lot of power at speed
[20:26:20] <anonimasu> to be able to go to that speed with some torque I'd need loads of hp..
[20:26:45] <anonimasu> maybe not 15 but still loads more..
[20:26:52] <rayh> mshaver: You about yet?
[20:27:13] <jmk_away> rayh: he's marked as "away"
[20:27:30] <jmk_away> course, so am I ;-)
[20:28:00] <paul_c> LawrenceG: Insert the CD in to a *nix box and do a "md5sum /dev/cdrom" - Checks the burn was OK.
[20:29:53] <rayh> One more reason to trash ksirc.
[20:30:15] <Jymmm> is the difference in 4 wire vs 6 wire steppers just CT ?
[20:30:37] <jmk_away> huh ray? I'm running Ksirc
[20:31:49] <rayh_> rayh_ is now known as rayh
[20:32:55] <rayh> that went well!
[20:33:36] <rayh> Gotta admit that I like the font in ksirc better but the current version is crap.
[20:34:26] <Jymmm> http://www.linengineering.com/site/products/silverpakC.html
[20:37:06] <rayh> Sure enough Matt is dim<g>
[20:37:21] <Jymmm> * Jymmm needs to find out if he can go dumpster diving at that place ^^^^
[20:38:09] <Jymmm> they're looking for a webdesigner, but I see ASP code there so nm.
[20:46:36] <LawrenceG> paul_c: md5sum fails with read error on both cdrw and cdr versions.... hmmm, may have to try another burner
[20:48:37] <LawrenceG> reminds me of the first time I installed emc.... took 2 weeks to build kernel, real time additions and linux, but it worked and cut stuff!
[20:50:05] <paul_c> Took me months to work on that CD, and now many people are cutting metal all over the States.
[20:51:12] <Jymmm> maybe a bad downlaod
[20:51:33] <Jymmm> you can md5 the iso file if you still have it
[20:53:51] <LawrenceG> iso summed ok.... using new dvd burner for making cd's... it may not like that... have old burner I can mount as well.
[20:54:20] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: lower the burn speed might yield better results
[20:54:50] <LawrenceG> I always wanted to try a network install... should be able to mount iso on loopback
[20:56:06] <robin_sz> meep?
[20:56:10] <LawrenceG> I am reburning a cdrw as we speak.... will try several options until it md5sums...
[20:57:18] <robin_sz> cradek: are you here?
[20:57:49] <Jymmm> * Jymmm read that as "ar you on crack?" lol
[20:58:29] <robin_sz> or does anyone else know if steppersegmod supports STEPPING_TYPE=1 for 'phased' style outputs??
[20:59:19] <robin_sz> i had it working OK for freqmod.o but failed to get it sorted on steppersegmod
[20:59:38] <cradek> robin_sz: yes I'm here
[20:59:51] <robin_sz> see above ^^ :)
[21:00:18] <cradek> umm
[21:00:22] <cradek> did you look at the source?
[21:00:25] <robin_sz> I did
[21:00:50] <robin_sz> but it seemed to have anything up to STEPPING_TYPE = 4 .. I fialedd to see the explanation
[21:01:05] <paul_c> See line 5662
[21:01:06] <robin_sz> but there again, it was freezing and I was stnading in a cold factory
[21:01:15] <robin_sz> line 5662 in?
[21:01:30] <paul_c> emcsegmot.c
[21:02:32] <robin_sz> have to go grab another .. this one on the laptop only has 3088 lines :)
[21:03:39] <robin_sz> while I grab the current CVS, is that a yes or no?
[21:03:51] <Jymmm> a DRIVER is something that takes step/dir signal and turns that into electric signals to operate a stepper motor, correct?
[21:04:19] <Jymmm> and EMC would be considered a CONTROLLER?
[21:04:22] <cradek> I wish I could send a steaming bag of crap back in time to whoever decided to make copies of entire files (like emcmot.c) in order to change a few lines for segmentqueue.
[21:04:41] <cradek> robin_sz: looks like it should work (as well as freqmod does)
[21:06:05] <robin_sz> cradek: OK, I'll have another go. It still seemed to produce step/dir for me, switching to freqmod.o had the desired effect.
[21:06:34] <cradek> robin_sz: it sure could be broken, since it's a separate copy of all that code (see above)
[21:06:41] <robin_sz> right.
[21:07:16] <robin_sz> I was freezing my nuts off and had been standing up for 2 hours, its possible I was confusing myself
[21:07:54] <cradek> you guys laugh at my small machine but it fits in the heated house...
[21:08:20] <Jymmm> cradek pics?
[21:08:23] <robin_sz> yeah. this was on an old bridgeport with a Boss 5
[21:08:30] <cradek> Jymmm: http://timeguy.com
[21:08:54] <Jymmm> oh the maxnc ?
[21:09:03] <cradek> well it used to be a maxnc
[21:09:09] <Jymmm> =)
[21:09:28] <SWPadnos> robin_sz: (looking at emc1 code), stepping_type 1 will generate gray code instead of step/dir - not 4 phases for (pseudo) direct drive
[21:09:59] <Jymmm> cradek you use it mostly for PCB's? or metal too?
[21:10:08] <cradek> I think you want stepping type 3
[21:10:23] <cradek> Jymmm: both, have also done wood, nylon, etc
[21:10:29] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: thats what I want, gray code. stepping_type 1, 2 phase in quadrature.
[21:10:47] <Jymmm> cradek: since it's in the house, how much mess (swarf) do you get everywhere?
[21:10:49] <cradek> robin_sz: oops, ignore what I said then
[21:11:05] <cradek> Jymmm: very little - it stays on the table mostly, then I vacuum it up
[21:11:07] <robin_sz> LL, LH, HH, HL.
[21:11:17] <cradek> Jymmm: there's a small shop vac under the table
[21:11:33] <SWPadnos> well - that's present in the version in EMC1 CVS
[21:11:43] <Jymmm> cradek: ah cool. I'm reluctant here a bit, mostly becasue we have animals in hte house.
[21:11:58] <robin_sz> cradek: when I had my 4x4' router, I had it in the back bedroom. It didnt have any dust extraction or any gaurding,
[21:12:14] <cradek> Jymmm: I have cats - so I keep the area cleaned up, but it doesn't bother them.
[21:12:15] <robin_sz> so after a routing session it was necessary to vacuum up the floor.
[21:12:33] <robin_sz> necessary and actually happening are not the same
[21:12:34] <SWPadnos> at least the cats can't do much damage to a steel machine :)
[21:12:40] <cradek> robin_sz: seems a bit non-optimal but workable
[21:12:47] <robin_sz> it was several inches deeep :)
[21:12:47] <SWPadnos> (with their claws)
[21:13:06] <Jymmm> cradek: ok, was just worried about metal slivers in paws or digestion and such.
[21:13:10] <cradek> SWPadnos: cats are properly taken care of and trained - they don't claw anything except the clawing post.
[21:13:17] <SWPadnos> HAH!
[21:13:40] <cradek> Jymmm: haven't had any trouble, but like I said, I keep it cleaned up, or I keep them away (some other not-so-clean stuff in another closed room)
[21:13:50] <robin_sz> cradek: no, you dont train cats, they train you.
[21:13:52] <SWPadnos> (actually, we have a relatively low-functioning cat, and he actually does claw the scratching post)
[21:13:53] <cradek> SWPadnos: it's true
[21:14:06] <cradek> robin_sz: I suppose it's a mutual thing
[21:14:11] <SWPadnos> He's the first I've seen that would use the post rather than nice new furniture :)
[21:14:33] <robin_sz> mine prefers to use rabbits
[21:14:41] <Jymmm> cradek: Yeah, I already have the vac for it, plus considering some type of enclosure too (clear vinyl and velcro)
[21:14:46] <robin_sz> and rats, birds, squirrels ...
[21:14:47] <cradek> if you start with a young cat (not a neglected adult) it's easy.
[21:15:08] <cradek> Jymmm: what kind of machine?
[21:15:12] <SWPadnos> cradek: you obviously haven't met my mother :D )
[21:15:25] <SWPadnos> (or her 12 or so cats)
[21:15:30] <cradek> yikes
[21:15:34] <SWPadnos> exactly
[21:15:41] <Jymmm> cradek: I want to build a router table or retrofit a sieg.
[21:15:42] <cradek> I hear about those crazy old ladies in the paper often
[21:15:49] <SWPadnos> well - she's one of them
[21:16:02] <cradek> not until she gets up to 90 cats
[21:16:06] <Jymmm> cradek: "Animal Planet.... 124 cats in an apartment"
[21:16:17] <robin_sz> eek
[21:16:19] <SWPadnos> A PhD and 4 masters, but still can't figure out how to get a cat to shit in the catbox.
[21:16:25] <Jymmm> lol
[21:16:33] <paul_c> who was that guy in New York with just two....
[21:16:42] <cradek> SWPadnos: 12 cats won't share a catbox. 2 or 3 will.
[21:16:45] <paul_c> bloody great lions.
[21:16:58] <SWPadnos> well - they share, but the whole house is the catbox...
[21:17:06] <cradek> haha ugh.
[21:17:18] <robin_sz> the best catbox is the big green one outside
[21:17:19] <SWPadnos> exactly my thoughts on the subject :)
[21:17:52] <SWPadnos> woohoo - my luggage just arrived !!
[21:18:06] <robin_sz> blinkin flip! ... mosfets are expensive!
[21:18:17] <robin_sz> 20p!
[21:18:38] <robin_sz> forget that then. back to transistors.
[21:19:41] <cradek> i've always wondered - why is it old ladies with the cats? have you ever heard of a crazy old man with 100 cats?
[21:19:50] <cradek> there's no such thing
[21:20:13] <SWPadnos> well - my mother is only 65, so she's not *that* old
[21:20:18] <cradek> although I suppose there's no such thing as a crazy old lady with 100 antique tractors
[21:20:26] <cradek> or windmills
[21:20:31] <cradek> or miniature steam engines
[21:20:34] <SWPadnos> or milling machines
[21:20:36] <cradek> so forget it
[21:21:01] <cradek> ok I've gotta run
[21:21:07] <cradek> ... work on my tractors
[21:21:12] <cradek> hehe
[21:27:55] <robin_sz> sigh .. why are RS so expensive?
[21:28:08] <anonimasu> rs?
[21:28:20] <SWPadnos> because they're so easy to order from :)
[21:29:26] <robin_sz> bah, there webshite is awful ..
[21:29:33] <robin_sz> you cant even search by price ...
[21:30:25] <robin_sz> do they really expect me to search every number by hand to find the cheapest SMD swtiching trasnistor?
[21:31:09] <SWPadnos> heh - designing your G200x carrier board?
[21:31:41] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:32:18] <SWPadnos> I've found the Zetex or Diodes, Inc. (can't remember which) to be the least expensive. Of course, it depends on the current rating.
[21:32:28] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[21:32:42] <SWPadnos> That's from Digi-Key, of course
[21:32:51] <robin_sz> 2.1p for transistors
[21:32:58] <robin_sz> 3.3p for leds
[21:32:59] <SWPadnos> What size and current are you looking for?
[21:33:07] <robin_sz> > < this big
[21:33:13] <robin_sz> up to an amp
[21:33:14] <SWPadnos> SOT-223?
[21:33:27] <robin_sz> 23
[21:33:27] <SWPadnos> MMBT2222A
[21:33:44] <robin_sz> same as a 2n2222?
[21:33:49] <robin_sz> except smd?
[21:33:52] <SWPadnos> Same specs, but SOT-23
[21:33:56] <robin_sz> right
[21:33:59] <SWPadnos> Actually, higher current, I think
[21:34:16] <robin_sz> Farnell has the ability to sort by price in your results :)
[21:34:41] <SWPadnos> It's too bad Digi-Key doesn't have that - but they really do let you get good selection criteria.
[21:35:21] <robin_sz> it shoudl be very cost-effective in SMD
[21:35:37] <robin_sz> I hadnt reallized quite how expensive leaded components were
[21:35:43] <SWPadnos> OK -the Fairchild MMBT2222AFS is $0.19 (single), $0.0376 in 3K (reel) quantity
[21:35:56] <SWPadnos> 1A, 350mW
[21:36:04] <SWPadnos> 40V
[21:37:03] <robin_sz> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=8737800&N=401
[21:37:41] <Jymmm> I think that's the only reason a hobbiest really goes SMD.... price
[21:38:06] <robin_sz> wait .. whats that diode doing in the transistors list?
[21:38:36] <SWPadnos> good question - I was trying to make sense of the specs :)
[21:38:38] <robin_sz> Jymmm: price is everything in modern manufacturing .. and the biggest cost is labour .. SMD saves labour
[21:38:56] <robin_sz> plus, smd removes human input. humans always fuck it up
[21:39:21] <Jymmm> robin_sz Well, if I did SMD it all be me my hands
[21:39:22] <SWPadnos> What voltage are you looking for?
[21:39:43] <robin_sz> our Zevatech 730 places 15,000 components an hour, never screws up.
[21:40:09] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: oh, low ... 24v wkg, so 30, 40 ...
[21:40:39] <SWPadnos> do you need a darlington, or is a standard bjt OK?
[21:40:55] <robin_sz> standard .. just to drive a relay coil.
[21:41:06] <robin_sz> 400R / 24V
[21:41:36] <SWPadnos> large quantity, or small?
[21:42:20] <alex_joni> greetings
[21:42:25] <SWPadnos> hi there.
[21:42:46] <alex_joni> hey stephen
[21:42:48] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: oh, say, 200
[21:42:48] <alex_joni> what's up?
[21:42:53] <alex_joni> hey robin
[21:42:58] <robin_sz> hi
[21:43:05] <SWPadnos> well then, you're screwed :)
[21:43:12] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: normally I buy by the reel
[21:43:25] <robin_sz> so 3000 then :)
[21:43:44] <robin_sz> I guess I can use them as drivers for the other channels too
[21:44:02] <alex_joni> anything interesting today?
[21:44:18] <SWPadnos> roughly 3 cents in 3k quantity, either BJT or darlington
[21:44:38] <Jymmm> alex_joni does a bday count as interesting?
[21:44:54] <alex_joni> Jymmm: always
[21:45:25] <Jymmm> alex_joni: ok, then it's my bday today.
[21:46:06] <alex_joni> Jymmm: best of wishes
[21:46:14] <Jymmm> alex_joni ty
[21:46:41] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: thas fine, pricing is as expected .. that Zetex?
[21:46:50] <SWPadnos> Fairchild, I think
[21:49:07] <SWPadnos> or try these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3835011649
[21:49:07] <robin_sz> 'k
[21:49:36] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[21:49:42] <anonimasu> Jymmm: congratulations
[21:50:11] <Jymmm> anonimasu ty
[21:50:27] <alex_joni> hey anders
[21:50:30] <alex_joni> how's life?
[21:50:33] <anonimasu> hello
[21:50:58] <anonimasu> it's pretty good
[21:51:39] <alex_joni> glad to hear that
[21:51:43] <robin_sz> if you watch mariss' pricing on the G200X, where he does "ok, without USB it comes to .." etc, you can work out his markup
[21:51:48] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is reading about formatting
[21:51:53] <robin_sz> basically, its about components x 4
[21:51:56] <Jymmm> How difficult is it to mill/turn SS ?
[21:51:57] <anonimasu> alex_joni: how are you?
[21:52:10] <robin_sz> Jymmm: easy with CNC
[21:52:28] <anonimasu> alex_joni: I just returned after a trip since thursday
[21:52:53] <paul_c> Jymmm: 316 & 303 turns & mills just fine. Keep your feed rates up and flood the area with coolant.
[21:53:18] <Jymmm> I gutted a copy machine, and there's a lot of SS rod,
[21:53:19] <robin_sz> just dont take too fine a cut and let the tool rub.
[21:53:40] <Jymmm> thought I could do something with it.
[21:53:47] <robin_sz> the stuff tend tends to work harden
[21:54:04] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is actually away from home
[21:54:12] <paul_c> Jymmm: You may find that stuff is hardened and a bitch to work - Stick with stuff you know what grade it is.
[21:54:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[21:54:36] <alex_joni> I'm attending some fair this week (welding equipment & such)
[21:54:43] <alex_joni> Yo paul_c
[21:54:48] <paul_c> (s)crap from the waste bin is always asking for trouble.
[21:55:07] <paul_c> Yo alex_joni
[21:55:27] <Jymmm> paul_c even for something as simple as turning down .5" from each end?
[21:55:29] <anonimasu> alex_joni: nice
[21:55:29] <alex_joni> any conclusions on the talk to matt?
[21:55:35] <alex_joni> an0n: kinda
[21:55:43] <alex_joni> I REALLY hate this city ;)
[21:55:47] <Jymmm> paul_c: .5" in length
[21:55:49] <robin_sz> stainless is easier with CNC because you can take a reasonable final cut. its also easy by hand if you have the confidence to take a 3 thou final cut by hand .. if you end up with 5 tenths to remove and dither, you can edn up stuck thats all.
[21:57:26] <Jymmm> do some (china) lathes have a "pass thru" that anyone is aware of (for longer stock)?
[21:57:40] <anonimasu> um, most lathes do have that..
[21:57:52] <robin_sz> nearly all infact
[21:58:00] <anonimasu> yep
[21:58:07] <robin_sz> spindle bore ...
[21:58:10] <Jymmm> I muct be blond then..
[21:58:17] <Jymmm> blonde and blind too =)
[21:58:56] <robin_sz> i suppose it possible some chinese crap at the $2/pound end of the market doesnt
[22:00:30] <Jymmm> Does this look like it would have a pass thru ? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/04000-04099/04019.gif
[22:01:53] <SWPadnos> Not too big if it does - the chuck diameter is only 2.5 "
[22:02:02] <alex_joni> SWP: any new thoughts on the Kbuild?
[22:02:13] <SWPadnos> I haven't looked yet (sorry)
[22:02:32] <alex_joni> I was thinking on having an easy/advanced switch
[22:02:37] <SWPadnos> I got home at 2:00 AM yesterday, and only just received my luggage
[22:02:44] <alex_joni> which enables/disables a lot of options
[22:02:50] <alex_joni> right.. how was the flight?
[22:03:00] <SWPadnos> yes - like the kernel "Experimental drivers" mega-option
[22:03:12] <SWPadnos> well - I had to wait a long time, but they upgraded me to first class :)
[22:03:29] <alex_joni> that's cool
[22:03:33] <paul_c> jammy bugger.
[22:03:34] <SWPadnos> (so I got the fine BLT salad, instead of no meal at all, on the 5 hour flight)
[22:03:34] <alex_joni> I drove almost all day today
[22:03:43] <alex_joni> what's a jammy bugger?
[22:03:51] <paul_c> lucky sod
[22:04:10] <alex_joni> ahhh
[22:04:12] <SWPadnos> (thanks for asking, I was wondering myself :) )
[22:04:19] <alex_joni> * alex_joni learns some british slang
[22:04:37] <alex_joni> of course it's not called slang.. is it?
[22:05:05] <paul_c> common english
[22:05:17] <alex_joni> ahhh.. right
[22:05:28] <SWPadnos> heh - the manual for the 24 pound lathe says "NEVER STAND ON THE MINI BENCH LATHE"
[22:05:50] <Jymmm> SWPadnos heh
[22:06:30] <anonimasu> lol
[22:06:43] <Jymmm> I would love to get one of the 3-in-1 machines, but 400 lbs upstairs... I dont' think so.
[22:06:45] <alex_joni> well guys.. I think I'll go to sleep
[22:06:47] <SWPadnos> our cat weighs almost as much as that lathe
[22:06:52] <Jymmm> G'Night alex_joni
[22:06:54] <anonimasu> * anonimasu smiles
[22:06:56] <anonimasu> night alex
[22:06:57] <SWPadnos> 'night
[22:07:09] <alex_joni> paul_c: any stuff that gets decided on indent stuff .. I'm goos with it
[22:07:15] <alex_joni> night guys
[22:07:57] <Jymmm> SWPadnos must be platic base I suspect.
[22:08:01] <Jymmm> plastic
[22:08:14] <SWPadnos> Probably sheet metal, thin though (and small)
[22:08:32] <Jymmm> yeah. I may be cheap, but I'm not THAT cheap
[22:09:04] <SWPadnos> actually, the distance between centers is 7.87 inches - the whole thing is 15" wide
[22:09:21] <Jymmm> and $220 USD
[22:09:30] <robin_sz> what sort of batteries does it take?
[22:09:35] <jmk_away> some folks think the harbor freight 7x10 lathe isn't too bad
[22:09:42] <Jymmm> robin_sz the 110volt kind
[22:09:43] <SWPadnos> You could run it on 8 D cells
[22:09:51] <anonimasu> lol
[22:10:29] <Jymmm> jmk_away: I'm in an apartment
[22:10:50] <robin_sz> my lathe, i tried to mave it with a pry-bar a few weeks ago
[22:10:51] <SWPadnos> the 7x10 is only 89 pounds shipping weight
[22:10:58] <anonimasu> I think you would be better off getting a machine that's heavier.. :)
[22:11:07] <robin_sz> it just made holes in the baords but ddidnt move any
[22:11:08] <jmk_away> right - that's why I mentioned the 7x10, only one step bigger than that toy
[22:11:15] <SWPadnos> yes - the 260 pound 8x12 is probably a bit better
[22:11:27] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Correct, plus workbench area too =)
[22:11:43] <robin_sz> or a secondhand Myford
[22:11:44] <jmk_away> first rule of machinery.... get the biggest, heavyest one you can afford and have room for
[22:11:52] <anonimasu> the heavier machines are always beter..
[22:11:54] <anonimasu> yep
[22:11:57] <SWPadnos> (it's the room that's the problem, I think)
[22:12:08] <robin_sz> right .. who wants this 8 tonne punch then?
[22:12:19] <jmk_away> can't afford it, don't have room for it
[22:12:23] <SWPadnos> too heavy
[22:12:24] <anonimasu> robin_sz: if you ship it to sweden I'll be glad to accept it
[22:12:26] <paul_c> Jymmm: Have you thought about a Clausing plus Bridgeport in a basement workshop ?
[22:12:30] <Jymmm> Well, I could kick my gf out of the this room, but I wouldn't feel right about it.
[22:12:35] <jmk_away> first he needs a basement
[22:12:38] <SWPadnos> Neither would she
[22:12:41] <robin_sz> actually, we sold it for �300
[22:12:53] <SWPadnos> good deal for the metal
[22:13:03] <anonimasu> hm, could be made to work :) somehow
[22:13:03] <robin_sz> the guy want to buy the tooling too :)
[22:13:07] <paul_c> jmk_away: Put them both in a 1st floor flat - They would soon end up in the basement !
[22:13:11] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: actually she already voluteered, but still. we are really scrapped for room.
[22:13:19] <robin_sz> now, the tooling is going to cost him :)
[22:13:24] <SWPadnos> I'd rather have the girlfriend than the lathe
[22:13:34] <anonimasu> :(
[22:13:37] <jmk_away> paul_c: but they wouldn't be quite as accurate then
[22:13:38] <robin_sz> SWPadnos: coo.
[22:13:55] <anonimasu> I am afraid you will be disappointed if you get a tiny machin..
[22:13:55] <anonimasu> e
[22:14:01] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'd still have her, but it's nice turning around from the computer and saying howdy!
[22:14:07] <anonimasu> but well, people love their minimills.. also..
[22:14:21] <SWPadnos> well - access is everything (location, location, location)
[22:14:25] <Jymmm> anonimasu no worries, I'm not gonna get a 26 lb lathe
[22:14:46] <jmk_away> Jymmm... it's simple - get the biggest heaviest thing you have room for.... if that is 26 lbs, so be it
[22:14:52] <anonimasu> yep
[22:14:57] <Jymmm> anonimasu mini-mill I dont have a problem with (after bringing up to par).
[22:15:03] <robin_sz> note: this only applies to machines
[22:15:09] <robin_sz> NOT girls
[22:15:11] <Jymmm> lol
[22:15:12] <anonimasu> yep
[22:15:13] <anonimasu> :)
[22:15:14] <jmk_away> right
[22:15:43] <Jymmm> robin_sz: well.... some are into that too.... they say "more to love"!
[22:15:56] <robin_sz> good.
[22:16:04] <robin_sz> leaves more thin ones for me :)
[22:16:12] <SWPadnos> there's got to be a "below average" half :)
[22:17:01] <robin_sz> mine is ~50kg ... skinny ting
[22:17:05] <robin_sz> thing
[22:17:10] <Jymmm> robin_sz asian?
[22:17:17] <SWPadnos> Jamaican
[22:17:20] <robin_sz> nah, just small
[22:17:21] <anonimasu> there are nothing like that over here..
[22:17:35] <robin_sz> thats, 110lb to you
[22:17:40] <SWPadnos> (at least, a skinny ting would be Jamaican)
[22:18:05] <Jymmm> asian girls (to me) always have a "boyish" figure to them.... skinny and lacking curves.
[22:18:16] <SWPadnos> depends on the girls, I'd say
[22:18:32] <Jymmm> no cheat, and no hips majority of the time.
[22:18:35] <Jymmm> chest
[22:18:42] <Jymmm> a plank
[22:18:56] <SWPadnos> that would be the small-breasted contingent
[22:19:15] <Jymmm> heh
[22:19:17] <robin_sz> shrug, depends what you like I guess ...
[22:19:25] <Jymmm> jessica rabbit
[22:19:33] <paul_c> Perv !
[22:19:39] <Jymmm> lol
[22:19:55] <Jymmm> curvy and in crayon!
[22:20:04] <paul_c> Now... Does that come under beastiality, or fantasy ?
[22:20:19] <SWPadnos> "toon sex"
[22:20:31] <Jymmm> d) all the above.
[22:21:06] <robin_sz> I guess the american dream is jessica rabbit, the american reallity is jessica giant rabbit ...
[22:21:17] <robin_sz> you lot will keep eating stuff ;)
[22:21:20] <SWPadnos> dumbo
[22:21:36] <Jymmm> robin_sz: we have food with flavor over here =)
[22:21:49] <Jymmm> * Jymmm shipps some chili paste to robin_sz
[22:22:02] <SWPadnos> they have that in England as well - Indian food :D
[22:22:03] <robin_sz> * robin_sz sends Jymmm some curry
[22:22:21] <robin_sz> we have curry 3 nights a week in my house
[22:22:26] <Jymmm> robin_sz got that.... big time!
[22:22:46] <Jymmm> salsa!
[22:23:20] <robin_sz> so .. just what is the average weight of an american these days?
[22:23:20] <Jymmm> seriously for a moment... in UK do you folks have a good variety of fresh veggies all year long?
[22:23:42] <Jymmm> including exotics
[22:24:29] <jmk_away> jmk_away is now known as jmkasunich
[22:24:31] <Jymmm> I know .jp has a HARD time with that.
[22:24:43] <Jymmm> $5 USD for a pear/apple
[22:24:46] <Jymmm> or more
[22:24:49] <robin_sz> yes
[22:25:03] <robin_sz> we have all fruit and veg all year long
[22:25:30] <robin_sz> apples are typically $2/pound all year
[22:25:44] <robin_sz> etc,
[22:26:15] <robin_sz> nothing really goes in ot out of season anymore .. thanks to 747 airfreight and refrigerated ships
[22:26:29] <Jymmm> heh
[22:26:35] <jmkasunich> not entirely true robin
[22:26:51] <jmkasunich> apples are available all year, and price is fairly constant
[22:26:54] <Jymmm> Yeah, in winter we get cirtus from US, in summer it comes from Chili
[22:27:07] <jmkasunich> but they taste a hell of a lot better when the local ones are in season
[22:27:41] <Jymmm> jmkasunich I thnk thats always the case, everywhere.
[22:29:03] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: thats true
[22:30:45] <robin_sz> http://www.sainsburystoyou.com # typical UK supermarket online
[22:30:55] <robin_sz> should you be REALLY bored
[22:31:18] <paul_c> Not that they will deliver to the USA...
[22:31:23] <robin_sz> Jymmm: note the prices for things like "roast chicken" are each, not packs of six ;))
[22:31:49] <SWPadnos> cool - I can order tea :)
[22:32:11] <SWPadnos> damn - I can't order tea :(
[22:32:37] <robin_sz> with milk and sugar?
[22:32:49] <SWPadnos> suer - but in the bag is a little better for me :)
[22:32:56] <SWPadnos> sure, that was
[22:34:01] <SWPadnos> I just wish I had bought the PG Tips package with 2000+ bags
[22:34:06] <SWPadnos> (at Costco)
[22:34:33] <robin_sz> they have pg tips in the US too?
[22:34:46] <SWPadnos> only in 40's, sometimes in 80's
[22:34:54] <SWPadnos> but for $5.00 / 40 bags
[22:35:26] <SWPadnos> (I was referring to Costco in England)
[22:36:08] <paul_c> SWPadnos: http://tinyurl.com/4t5ps
[22:36:56] <SWPadnos> nice. (expensive and out of stock, but nice :) )
[22:37:28] <paul_c> They have other selections...
[22:37:37] <SWPadnos> I'mlooking.
[22:38:13] <SWPadnos> It's funny - the supermarket teas (like Sainsbury's) are really good in England - we get little bags with half the tea in them
[22:38:17] <paul_c> Darjeeling Fine Tippy Golden FOP ?
[22:38:49] <SWPadnos> I just had Super Fine Tippy Gold ... at the local tea house
[22:39:05] <gezr> I like earl grey
[22:39:14] <gezr> or a souther tea mix on ice
[22:39:27] <gezr> southern
[22:40:03] <robin_sz> hmm .. OK, where did I go wrong with that guy on the geckodrive forums calculations?
[22:40:20] <gezr> robin_sz : what are you talking about?
[22:40:31] <robin_sz> 24 teeth @ 1.5mm pitch = 36mm right?
[22:40:36] <paul_c> Hrrmmm... Must remember to get some of Norwich's finest local produce...
[22:40:45] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:40:56] <robin_sz> and 200 steps per rev ..
[22:41:03] <SWPadnos> what thread title?
[22:41:08] <paul_c> SWPadnos: Fancy Colman's Mustard
[22:41:14] <SWPadnos> (I haven't caught up on that one yet)
[22:41:16] <robin_sz> so 36/200 mm per step
[22:41:17] <gezr> 24 teeth on the what?
[22:41:24] <robin_sz> http://www.google.co.uk/
[22:41:26] <narnia> * narnia shops at aldi. http://www.aldi.com
[22:41:26] <robin_sz> bah
[22:41:33] <SWPadnos> paul_c: yes - that was one of our travel supplies, along with various meats
[22:41:33] <robin_sz> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/geckodrive/message/4847
[22:41:56] <robin_sz> gezr: pinion
[22:42:05] <gezr> im not a member
[22:42:23] <robin_sz> so 0.18mm per step, 0.018mm per uStep at 10:1 ustepping
[22:42:24] <Jymmm> $2.54 USD for a 2ltr bottle of soda?! eeeeesh
[22:42:35] <gezr> so he has a 1.5mm pitch rack, running a 24tooth pinion connected to a stepper?
[22:42:40] <robin_sz> yep
[22:42:54] <robin_sz> I got it to 55.5 pulses per mm
[22:43:05] <robin_sz> at 10 ustepping
[22:44:17] <gezr> I dont buy a 1.5mm pitch rack, thats ultra fine
[22:44:57] <robin_sz> I was just curious where my calculation went wrong
[22:46:10] <Jymmm> would this (as a lathe) have a pass thru? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44142
[22:46:12] <jmkasunich> I wonder if it's 1.5mm diametral pitch
[22:46:19] <gezr> well its gonna be 15deg of rotary motion to move 1.5mm but I doubt they make rack that fine
[22:46:19] <robin_sz> shrug
[22:46:29] <gezr> it has to be what jmkasunich is saying
[22:46:36] <gezr> but thats super small even
[22:46:38] <robin_sz> eh?
[22:46:40] <gezr> im searching
[22:46:45] <robin_sz> 15 degrees?
[22:46:59] <gezr> to advance the pinion 1.5mm
[22:47:02] <gezr> or one pitch
[22:47:09] <jmkasunich> Jymm... probably The MT4 headstock taper is a nice size
[22:47:12] <gezr> which is why im saying that 1.5mm pitch rack doesnt exist
[22:47:21] <robin_sz> could be ...
[22:47:24] <jmkasunich> same as my shoptask, which IIRC has a 1-1/8" hole
[22:47:37] <gezr> it could be 1.5 module
[22:47:45] <robin_sz> could be ...
[22:47:47] <Jymmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46199
[22:47:51] <robin_sz> infact .. I think I have it ..
[22:48:16] <Jymmm> Man, I think putting either one of these on a rolling cart wouldn't be stable enough.
[22:48:32] <gezr> lets see, 1.5module gear has a circlular pitch in mm of 4.712
[22:48:54] <gezr> tooth thickness in mm of 2.356
[22:49:16] <jmkasunich> Jymm... what do you want to machine?
[22:49:58] <gezr> a module in the metric system is defined as the amount of pitch diameter per tooth expressed in millimeters. the module is equal to the pitch diameter divided by the number of teeth or the circular pitch divided by pi
[22:50:09] <jmkasunich> BTW, the smaller one actually tells you what size the spindle thru hole is - 3/4"
[22:50:13] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: a majority of the time aluminum. maybe some plastics, occationally general steel
[22:50:35] <jmkasunich> ok that's good to know, but I really meant what kind of projects
[22:50:56] <jmkasunich> heavy on milling (rectangular stuff and holes) or on lathe work (round stuff) or a balanced mix
[22:51:19] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: balanced mix.
[22:52:02] <gezr> robin_sz : did that help?
[22:52:43] <jmkasunich> ok... if it was going to be mostly lathe, I'd recommend just getting a lathe instead of a 3-in-1
[22:53:00] <jmkasunich> but if it's a balanced mix, and you have limited space, a 3-in-1 isn't a bad choice
[22:53:29] <jmkasunich> realize however that 3-in-1s are decent lathes, but limited at best in milling
[22:53:54] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I see the lathe for turning stock down to fit a bearing as example. Then maybe milling a rail brace
[22:54:49] <jmkasunich> note that the smaller one doesn't do threading
[22:55:14] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I thought that was an oversite on their part (the threading)
[22:55:36] <jmkasunich> could be, but before spending money, better to be sure
[22:55:53] <Jymmm> true, even the bigger one doesn't mention threading
[22:56:09] <Jymmm> sorry, it does, just not he limitations
[22:56:11] <jmkasunich> 22 metric and 38 SAE threads
[22:56:33] <Jymmm> on a lathe what determines what threads it can cut?
[22:56:44] <gezr> gearing
[22:56:52] <jmkasunich> leadscrew pitch, and the gearing between leadscrew and spindle
[22:57:10] <jmkasunich> looking at the small one, I don't think it has threading _or_ power feeds
[22:57:21] <SWPadnos> it hardly has a power head
[22:57:34] <gezr> how much is a 3n1?
[22:57:38] <gezr> about a grand?
[22:57:42] <jmkasunich> the larger one is twice the weight, and twice the price, but if you can handle those things, it seems a much better machine
[22:57:51] <jmkasunich> the little one is 700, the big one 1300
[22:57:57] <Jymmm> what jmkasunich said
[22:58:11] <gezr> I guess a small lathe and mill are going to be about the same together hu?
[22:58:22] <gezr> but were talking really small mini lathe and mill stuff
[22:58:25] <jmkasunich> it all depends
[22:58:36] <Jymmm> 7x10 lathe http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33684
[22:58:38] <jmkasunich> small lathe and mill will almost certainly take more space
[22:59:02] <gezr> a 3x6 foot table
[22:59:28] <Jymmm> small mill (on sale for $450) http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
[23:00:01] <gezr> here is the deal, no matter what you get or have, your always going to want/need more or larger
[23:00:05] <jmkasunich> hmmm... 7x10 lathe + minimill = 850
[23:00:12] <jmkasunich> definitely better than the small 3-in-1
[23:00:16] <gezr> unless all you do is small
[23:01:01] <jmkasunich> I think that mini-mill is a better mill than the milling function of the large 3-in-1
[23:01:12] <gezr> I agree
[23:01:24] <jmkasunich> but the 3-in-1 lathe has a much larger capacity
[23:01:27] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I thknk your right there, plus the 7x10 looks WAY better all around
[23:02:01] <jmkasunich> and you can spend the money in chunks - get the lathe first, then add the mill later
[23:02:18] <Jymmm> 89 lbs for the lathe, 150 lbs for the mill; I could actually move either one myself
[23:02:21] <jmkasunich> my $0.02 - the small 3-in-1 is a waste of money
[23:02:35] <jmkasunich> the large 3-in-1 would be better if you are planning to work on large pieces
[23:02:51] <jmkasunich> but the two individual machines will be better if you are working on smaller stuff
[23:02:53] <Jymmm> if I can get "pass thru" I'd be happy
[23:03:13] <jmkasunich> pass thru on the 7x10 is either 3/4 or 5/8, not really clear
[23:03:27] <jmkasunich> how big do you need for pass thru
[23:03:30] <gezr> spindle threw hole?
[23:03:34] <jmkasunich> yes
[23:03:49] <Jymmm> 3/4" would be perfect, 7/8 better of course =)
[23:03:51] <gezr> yeah its gonna be small, maybe enough to put a draw bar into
[23:04:13] <jmkasunich> the 7x10 might not be big enough then
[23:04:25] <jmkasunich> the large 3-in-1 probably has at least 7/8, perhaps even 1"
[23:04:34] <SWPadnos> it looked like 5/8 on the 7x10, and 3/4 on the 8x12
[23:04:39] <jmkasunich> thinking about gunsmithing or something?
[23:04:44] <gezr> it wont be 1" unless it uses say 5c collets
[23:05:01] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'd be scarred to do gunsmithing on such a small machine.
[23:05:18] <Jymmm> jmkasunich (but the thought did cross my mind)
[23:05:19] <jmkasunich> not true - my Shoptask 3-in-1 is similar to the large 3-in-1 here, it has a MT4 spindle and 1-1/8 bore
[23:05:31] <robin_sz> in the UK, you'd get govenrment assistance for that
[23:05:31] <gezr> mt4 is big
[23:05:34] <ve7it> paul_c: you still awake?
[23:05:41] <jmkasunich> the large 3-in-1 is MT4
[23:05:48] <Jymmm> robin_sz: for gunsmithing?
[23:06:00] <robin_sz> you'd get a 5 year holiday in a government sponsored institution
[23:06:09] <Jymmm> oh, lol
[23:06:14] <jmkasunich> fortunately he's not in the UK
[23:06:22] <nevyn> /away
[23:06:29] <robin_sz> they are not very keen on amateur gunsmiths over here.
[23:06:36] <nevyn> or here.
[23:06:49] <SWPadnos> heh "Guns don't kill people, people with guns do"
[23:06:49] <jmkasunich> doing it for yourself is legal (but if you sell your services, then there is much licensing and such involved)
[23:06:51] <Jymmm> Gawd Bless the 2nd Amendment!
[23:07:11] <robin_sz> not here. mandatory 5 year sentence if they catch you
[23:07:37] <jmkasunich> there are some restrictions here - not a good idea to make a silencer ;-)
[23:07:46] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: licensing for servicing guns, or mfg of parts?
[23:08:05] <gezr> not a good one to make one and sell it, not even share with your friends
[23:08:14] <robin_sz> hell, silecers are section 5 items here, even more trouble for those than a plain old rifle
[23:08:19] <jmkasunich> I don't know the details, just know that if money or guns change hands, you better read up on the rules first
[23:08:23] <gezr> big trouble here too
[23:08:49] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Damn ATF.... they already wantn $100/yr from me... bastards!
[23:08:56] <robin_sz> in the UK its illegal to sell any gun thats not in "proof"
[23:08:56] <jmkasunich> for what?
[23:09:01] <Jymmm> permit
[23:09:04] <robin_sz> even to another gunsmith
[23:09:11] <jmkasunich> just to own/shoot guns?
[23:09:29] <robin_sz> proof is a sort of test where they fire a heavy load through it and see if it splits
[23:10:15] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nlc/explosives/explo_types.htm
[23:10:27] <robin_sz> ive seen them do black-powder barrels ...
[23:10:28] <Jymmm> #34
[23:10:40] <robin_sz> all lying on the ground with a big load and a heavy ball
[23:11:10] <robin_sz> they trail a run of black powder over the nipples, along the floor and out of the door
[23:11:22] <robin_sz> shut the door, light the trail and hide ...
[23:11:24] <robin_sz> :)
[23:11:32] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'm a pyro =)
[23:12:07] <jmkasunich> was about to say that... as in -maniac, or as in stage stuff?
[23:12:22] <Jymmm> * Jymmm can drive around with 500 lbs of explosive in SF rush hour traffic! WooHoo KaBoom
[23:12:41] <Jymmm> jmkasunich igniters
[23:13:11] <Jymmm> I can make em, just need the permit to sell em.
[23:13:12] <robin_sz> sadly, you cannot get "recreational explosives" licenses over here
[23:13:36] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Really? then how can you experiment with rocketry?
[23:13:44] <robin_sz> thats different
[23:13:54] <robin_sz> thats class B
[23:14:16] <robin_sz> you dont need a license for a class B explosive in the UK
[23:14:16] <robin_sz> only class A
[23:14:31] <Jymmm> whats the differnce (technically) ?
[23:14:51] <robin_sz> between a class A and B?
[23:14:56] <Jymmm> yeah
[23:15:01] <Jymmm> the limit so to speak
[23:15:22] <robin_sz> a class A is capable of making the transition from rapid burning to explosion all on its own]
[23:15:30] <robin_sz> a class b needs a detonator
[23:15:37] <robin_sz> so nitro shotgun powder
[23:15:37] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[23:15:40] <robin_sz> is class B
[23:15:41] <Jymmm> lol
[23:15:49] <robin_sz> blackpowder is class A
[23:16:22] <Jymmm> you mean class b?
[23:16:26] <robin_sz> no
[23:16:34] <robin_sz> blackpowder will explode if lit
[23:16:49] <robin_sz> nitro just burns (very rapidly)
[23:17:23] <Jymmm> oh oh im thinking layid out on the ground, not in a container.
[23:17:29] <Jymmm> shell/casing
[23:17:58] <robin_sz> and you know the technical difference between an explosion and a rapid burning?
[23:18:19] <Jymmm> no
[23:18:20] <jmkasunich> explosion > speed of sound
[23:18:49] <Jymmm> I just mkae lil igniters is all. nothing fancy
[23:18:49] <jmkasunich> combustion - deflagration - detonation
[23:18:59] <robin_sz> basically.
[23:19:01] <robin_sz> yes.
[23:19:22] <robin_sz> in an explosion the flame front and the combution product move in the same directions
[23:19:32] <robin_sz> in a burning they move in opposite directions
[23:19:42] <robin_sz> hence the speed of sound ting
[23:21:29] <robin_sz> RDX goes off at over 8000m/s ... thats quite quick
[23:23:00] <jmkasunich> almost as quick as this thread got off topic ;-)
[23:23:35] <gezr> robin_sz : did you get the gear rack thing figured out?
[23:24:01] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:24:11] <robin_sz> it mod1.5 rack
[23:24:17] <robin_sz> it was out by pi
[23:24:26] <gezr> so the guy named it wrong?
[23:24:34] <robin_sz> guy said it had a pitch of 1,5mm, its not
[23:25:22] <robin_sz> frankly, if he cant figure out how to get it right ... well ..
[23:25:55] <robin_sz> "I entered 1411 steps per inch, but it moves a lot too far, what should I do" ...
[23:25:59] <gezr> some days I wish I knew something instead of bits and pieces of a lot of junk
[23:26:08] <robin_sz> "err, make the numbers smaller dude"
[23:26:40] <Jymmm> gezr: I feel that way ALL the time lately.
[23:26:53] <robin_sz> I mean, don't these guys think of just trying it and seeing what happens?
[23:27:00] <robin_sz> isnt experimenting half the fun?
[23:27:06] <robin_sz> jeez, I wonder some days
[23:27:12] <gezr> robin_sz : yeah that is a bit vague, I guess he could have measured how far apart the teeth on the rack are, then how many degrees per tooth he was getting and on and on and figured it out on his own
[23:27:48] <robin_sz> well, even when it turned out wrong, dont you just try numbers until it works out right
[23:27:57] <robin_sz> with the aid of a ruler and calculator
[23:28:00] <Jymmm> gezr are you speaking of the guy that would move 1" on screen but only .128 on the table?
[23:28:17] <robin_sz> then play with the eqauions till you figure out the formulae??
[23:28:18] <gezr> Jymmm : something robin_sz was working on
[23:28:25] <Jymmm> gezr: oh, ok.
[23:28:30] <gezr> robin_sz : thats what the guys who gave us physics did
[23:29:06] <gezr> robin_sz : not everyone is smart enough to make a table of numbers and see a relationship between them ya know
[23:29:20] <gezr> robin_sz : you could have ran the calc in how many move? 2 or 3?
[23:29:27] <gezr> moves
[23:29:40] <robin_sz> what, empirically?
[23:29:45] <Jymmm> that would be called cryptology, not to be confused with "Miss Cleo" =)
[23:29:55] <gezr> I think it would take at least 3 trys to get an idea how many steps= how much motion
[23:30:00] <robin_sz> depends how close you are to start I guess
[23:30:12] <gezr> robin_sz : I guess it would only take 1 really hu?
[23:30:28] <SWPadnos> well - enter 100 (or 1000) as the starting number, then divide the actual by expected motion, and multiply
[23:30:31] <gezr> he says 1141 steps, gets X motion thats his calc
[23:30:32] <SWPadnos> seems pretty easy
[23:30:33] <robin_sz> but a ruler and a "well it moved about 60" when I asked for 20, lets divide by three .."
[23:30:55] <SWPadnos> right "1141 / actual" = steps per inch
[23:31:11] <robin_sz> I did the basic calc with full explanations, he should have been able to see how it was done ...
[23:31:12] <gezr> yeah, in one move he could have calculated the necessary steps/inch
[23:31:23] <robin_sz> yeah, or got close
[23:31:29] <Jymmm> or start by 100, measure the distance moved, then double it to 200 and see if the motion is linear.
[23:31:34] <robin_sz> then tried to find the exact formulae
[23:31:52] <gezr> yeah
[23:32:11] <gezr> cooking is fun
[23:32:29] <robin_sz> or even "hmm I tried it .. and it seems to be out by a factor of 3.1xx, hmm what significant numbers are there around 3.1xxxx"
[23:33:04] <SWPadnos> 22/7 ?
[23:33:12] <robin_sz> anyway, he suplied duff data .. garbage in, garbage out
[23:33:13] <gezr> whats he gonna do once he gets his machine working?
[23:33:17] <Jymmm> Apple Pie
[23:33:24] <robin_sz> break things :)
[23:35:15] <jmkasunich> damn... it's happening again
[23:35:32] <SWPadnos> Seizures?
[23:35:38] <gezr> jmkasunich : you feeling the urge to break things?
[23:35:55] <jmkasunich> I put a little wire spool down somewhere within 2 feet of where I'm sitting, and I've spend the last 5 mins looking for it
[23:36:13] <SWPadnos> Ah - Alzheimers :)
[23:36:35] <gezr> worm hole?
[23:36:40] <SWPadnos> Iowa
[23:36:46] <SWPadnos> (where all the socks go)
[23:36:50] <gezr> hahaha
[23:36:56] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Close your eyes, place your hands out in front of you in a confortable distance, then lower them!
[23:37:08] <ve7it> check the dunny
[23:37:11] <jmkasunich> they landed on my bench
[23:37:18] <robin_sz> pi/4 = 1 + 3^3/3 - 5^5/5 + 7^7/7 - ...
[23:37:37] <SWPadnos> yes, and ...
[23:37:38] <SWPadnos> ?
[23:37:41] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/bench.jpg
[23:37:53] <robin_sz> well, you know .. its interesting
[23:37:54] <SWPadnos> oooooh - clean!
[23:38:16] <robin_sz> tidy
[23:38:19] <gezr> that is so awsome
[23:38:23] <gezr> jmkasunich : I love it
[23:38:34] <jmkasunich> it
[23:38:41] <Jymmm> looks cleaner than mine
[23:38:46] <jmkasunich> it's actually worse now than when the pic was taken
[23:39:02] <Jymmm> jmkasunich can you get within 3' of your bench?
[23:39:19] <robin_sz> http://www.wireless.org.uk/gallery/meagn.jpg # my mate dave at his bench
[23:39:39] <Jymmm> cq dx
[23:39:44] <jmkasunich> nice
[23:40:07] <gezr> i have a laptop just like that
[23:40:20] <gezr> cept I think the mouse is gone
[23:40:36] <jmkasunich> found it... on the floor
[23:40:58] <paul_c> last place to look..
[23:41:05] <Jymmm> ceiling
[23:41:58] <Jymmm> when looking for pet gecko, 1st place you look!
[23:42:22] <robin_sz> nah, first place is the bottom of your shoe.
[23:42:45] <Jymmm> they like to leap on you in the middle of the night
[23:43:53] <robin_sz> "my printer wont work .. and my mouse is stuck"
[23:43:56] <robin_sz> http://photos.fotango.com/p/eba00496127f00000010.jpg
[23:44:12] <Jymmm> awwwwwwwwwww
[23:47:50] <Jymmm> this $350 lathe got expensive all of a sudden (with all the added tooling)
[23:48:09] <jmkasunich> welcome to machining
[23:48:17] <Jymmm> heh
[23:48:26] <jmkasunich> you probably don't have to buy everything right away
[23:48:48] <robin_sz> no .. you dont *have* to ..
[23:48:53] <robin_sz> but do it anyway
[23:48:59] <Jymmm> they have a small list at the bottom.... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33684
[23:49:03] <robin_sz> its the reason thewy invented credit cards
[23:49:12] <paul_c> take the price of the basic lathe (or mill) then double it and add the cost of the lathe (or mill) - This is how much you will spend in the first year.
[23:49:54] <jmkasunich> steady and follow rests should be purchased only when needed... I've had my lathe 5 yrs and have been able to do without
[23:50:04] <paul_c> The likes of Hass make more on selling the tooling package than the machine.
[23:50:33] <robin_sz> like industrial plasmas
[23:50:53] <robin_sz> they'll eat their worth in nozzles and electrodes in a year
[23:51:07] <gezr> cant quite justify buying the machine when the only vise that fits it costs a grand
[23:51:37] <robin_sz> sure, loads of vices fit it
[23:51:48] <robin_sz> dont they have stick welders in your place??
[23:52:18] <gezr> robin_sz : yeah
[23:54:01] <LawrenceG> paul_c: interesting.... could not md5sum 2 disks burnt on dvd burner without read errors... they did verify when reading with a cdrom burner... just installing from a new copy burnt on cdrom burner... so far so good.
[23:55:02] <Jymmm> LawrenceG back to the store with that new dvd burner.
[23:56:59] <LawrenceG> I hate it when the hardware is playing nasty...
[23:57:25] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: what shares the same cable as your dvd burner?
[23:58:44] <LawrenceG> It was on a cable by itself as master.... added my old cd burner on as slave... will see if the install succeeds... looks like it is reporting another 35 min