#emc | Logs for 2005-03-12

[00:19:47] <gezr> hmm
[00:51:35] <paul_c> Hi Ray... Found a ref to runtime forms in Qt
[00:51:45] <paul_c> sodit.
[01:23:04] <cnc_wright> (crickets chirping)
[01:26:23] <cnc_wright> * cnc_wright slaps cnc_wright around with a small 50lb Unix Manual
[01:26:34] <cnc_wright> * cnc_wright slaps cnc_wright around with a small 50lb Unix Manual
[01:29:01] <Jymmm> cnc_wright 50# you lightweight!
[01:29:32] <cnc_wright> I'm just trying to figure out irc and I bash my self in the head I guess
[01:30:22] <Jymmm> bash is much better as a shell
[01:31:36] <cnc_wright> bash csh ksh...it's all good
[01:32:08] <Jymmm> heh
[01:32:31] <cnc_wright> I am using Ksirc. What are others using?
[01:32:37] <Jymmm> bitchx
[01:32:59] <cnc_wright> I tried out bitchx but it got nuked on one of my many machine rebuilds.
[01:33:08] <cnc_wright> I'll have to go get it again
[01:33:17] <K`zan> xchat, simply the best :)
[01:34:21] <cnc_wright> from time to time I see people enter some kind of special message that shows up a litte differnt...
[01:34:28] <cnc_wright> how do they do that?
[01:34:45] <cnc_wright> it like an 'aside' or something
[01:34:53] <K`zan> * K`zan like this
[01:34:58] <cnc_wright> yeah
[01:34:59] <K`zan> ?
[01:35:05] <K`zan> /me like this
[01:35:18] <cnc_wright> * cnc_wright crickts chirping
[01:35:21] <cnc_wright> cool
[01:35:25] <K`zan> :-)
[01:35:52] <cnc_wright> * cnc_wright It's Friday!!!!
[01:38:33] <cnc_wright> What motherboards are people using for their EMC boxes?
[01:40:35] <Jymmm> I have a question... when your down turning a piece, you use a parting toold to remove it, is there something simular you do with a milled piece?
[01:40:44] <Jymmm> s/down/done/
[01:41:29] <K`zan> * K`zan has an XP3200 but no cnc machines :-(.
[01:42:09] <cnc_wright> Do AMD's play well with EMC and RTAI?
[01:42:45] <Jymmm> nfc about AMD at all for any purpose
[01:43:27] <Jymmm> * Jymmm could buy a stolen AMD cpu for $2 and wouldn't know if it was equal to a 286 or a P5
[01:44:17] <cnc_wright> I've never tried an AMD myself.
[01:44:31] <gezr> ive ran emc on an amd
[01:44:47] <Jymmm> Some love em, but the ppl I know that have tried them have had issues in one way or another.
[01:44:48] <gezr> and howdy folks
[01:45:08] <gezr> there are issues with all cpus and types
[01:45:22] <gezr> its sorta a choose your poision issues I think
[01:45:26] <cnc_wright> that's for sure
[01:45:32] <Jymmm> I've never had issues with intel (except known bug)
[01:45:54] <cnc_wright> The trick is to choose a poison that other have drank before you..
[01:46:28] <gezr> I guess speed does effect things a bit, but where the exact limitation lies I do not know
[01:47:08] <cnc_wright> I just want to get something faster than 450mhz so compiles don't take so looooonnngggg
[01:47:32] <gezr> I run it on a 350 or maybe its a 300 I dont know, its an amd box
[01:47:45] <gezr> its nice
[01:48:07] <Jymmm> have you guys played with those pancake looking stepper motors before?
[01:48:18] <gezr> yeah, thats about all I have
[01:48:49] <gezr> I have a few others that I use, but pancake dont have much to them I dont guess
[01:49:01] <Jymmm> well mini hockey puck
[01:50:48] <cnc_wright> I have 65oz-in 200step motor my bro-inlaw gave me. I'm not going to use it. Could anybody use it.
[01:51:25] <gezr> not I
[01:52:58] <cnc_wright> Maybe I will look for another one and build the cnc etch-a-sketch I saw on the AXIS site.
[01:53:07] <gezr> I made my torque testor, and until I complete it, its not accurate at all
[01:53:15] <gezr> printers
[01:53:28] <gezr> printers have at least one panckake to turn the drum
[01:53:37] <gezr> the print head flys on basically a servo
[01:53:58] <gezr> well, not a servo, but an electric motor
[01:54:51] <cnc_wright> How did you make a torque tester?
[01:55:16] <Jymmm> gezr yeah thats the size I'm talking baout like in a printer
[01:55:28] <Jymmm> cnc_wright it be easier to read the logs =)
[01:55:37] <Jymmm> les is such a geek
[01:55:39] <Jymmm> =)
[01:59:20] <gezr> cnc_wright : sorry I was piddling with it, its just a bar, with some holes, im hainging a weight off of it with piano type wire and im not getting the results I wanted
[02:00:02] <cnc_wright> I used to use drive shafts with strain gages on them for measuring torque in heavy equipment
[02:00:10] <gezr> I need I think to counter balance a base weight, and then keep everything in parallel or perpendicular relations
[02:00:44] <cnc_wright> are you trying to do a dynamic torque or a static stall kind of torque measurement
[02:01:14] <gezr> I have some torque wrenches that need calibration, one I took apart to learn how it worked, the others im sure are off
[02:02:01] <gezr> now dynamics or static heck if i know
[02:02:56] <cnc_wright> dynamic is with the motor turning and static is them max torque the motor can put out when you hold the shaft still.
[02:03:08] <gezr> static
[02:03:57] <cnc_wright> yes keeping things all square/parallel/perpendicular would help the accuracy
[02:05:34] <cnc_wright> I think building a small beam type setup would be your best bet.
[02:05:36] <gezr> right now, its in its rough form
[02:06:02] <cnc_wright> I'm drawing a blank on how to go about it...hmmmmm
[02:06:20] <gezr> I didnt have a 4 foot long bar, I had a 3 foot one
[02:06:48] <gezr> so I drilled a hole at 1 foot from the end, and then another hole 1 foot from that one, and then one more 2 feet from teh first
[02:07:04] <gezr> then I put a counter weight on the short end of the bar to level it
[02:07:37] <gezr> I took a bolt, and put it inside a pipe, and clamped the bar between 2 nuts and a lock washer
[02:07:50] <gezr> and I put the pipe into a vise
[02:08:37] <gezr> the external nut, when I turn it lifts the rod up, I can now devise a weight holding thing to add weight, 1lb at 2feet=2foot pounds
[02:09:38] <cnc_wright> sounds good so far
[02:11:38] <Jymmm> you know, that how balance scales work
[02:11:51] <Jymmm> beam scales I mean
[02:12:19] <gezr> i need a good method to suspend the weights from so that the bar is level when waiting, and that I know that 1oz weight is in fact 1oz :)
[02:12:34] <Jymmm> slide it
[02:12:45] <cnc_wright> you could replace the weights with a 'fish scale' and get a readout
[02:12:58] <gezr> :)
[02:13:05] <Jymmm> cut notches in the bar, make each notch equal to (lets say) .5 oz
[02:13:44] <Jymmm> iirc les said 12" == 1 ft/lb
[02:13:45] <gezr> I dont have that much bar
[02:13:58] <gezr> no, 12" doesnt, I have to suspend 1lb at that distance
[02:14:43] <gezr> if I had a perfect 1lb weight, I would need a bar, 100ft long to have 100ft-lbs of torque at the balance point
[02:15:13] <Jymmm> ok, so 4oz @ 4ft is 1ft/lb
[02:15:34] <Jymmm> my keys weight exactly 5.5 oz =)
[02:15:44] <Jymmm> weigh
[02:15:44] <gezr> yeah 1ft-lb
[02:16:11] <Jymmm> which should be more accurate at 4' than at 1'
[02:16:49] <Jymmm> so whats a good weight that you can find in any shop?
[02:16:56] <Jymmm> how about a box wrench
[02:17:04] <Jymmm> easy to tie to
[02:17:08] <gezr> Im not lifting this weight from the oppsite end of the fulcrum. my lifting point is the fulcrum
[02:17:19] <Jymmm> or a socket
[02:18:13] <Jymmm> yeah that work... weight your sockets and then use comninations fo them to get desired weight
[02:19:00] <gezr> ill be working in the 0-150 ft-lb weight
[02:19:18] <gezr> or range that is
[02:19:29] <gezr> so I need at least 75 lbs of weight
[02:19:36] <cnc_wright> how big is your motor?
[02:19:43] <gezr> Im not using a motor
[02:19:49] <gezr> im using a torque wrench
[02:20:04] <cnc_wright> * cnc_wright light turns on
[02:20:14] <gezr> im using a simple method to test a torque wrench
[02:20:49] <cnc_wright> you have 3 ft of bar correct?
[02:20:56] <gezr> yeah
[02:21:11] <Jymmm> 50lbs @ 3' == 150 lbs
[02:21:32] <gezr> im using 2 feet on the lifting end, and one foot of it to rest a counter weight to keep the bar parallel
[02:22:03] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands gezr a breaker bar
[02:22:22] <gezr> I cant use that on a cylinder head now can I?
[02:22:26] <gezr> :)
[02:22:42] <cnc_wright> Put the old bathroom scale on the floor under the bar with a vertical link going to your bar.
[02:22:42] <gezr> im doing all of this because I bought Harbor Freight troque wrenches
[02:22:54] <cnc_wright> subtract off the weight of the link
[02:23:01] <gezr> I havent spent a dime making the testing stand
[02:23:13] <cnc_wright> scale reading-link weight * distance = torque
[02:23:19] <gezr> cnc_wright : that sounds correct, but ill be using a spring to test a spring
[02:23:42] <cnc_wright> Yeah...you need a reference.
[02:24:08] <gezr> im going the I dont have much money method to being right
[02:24:42] <cnc_wright> You know...I think Napa stores have torque wrench testers. They might check your wrench for free.
[02:25:02] <gezr> so I get 3 torque wrenches for 65 bucks, and I end up with a way to set them, reguardless of what the dial on them says :)
[02:25:29] <gezr> I took the smallest one apart
[02:25:32] <gezr> :)
[02:25:44] <gezr> so not only do I get to test I get to calibrate :)
[02:26:33] <cnc_wright> I just figured out a calibrated weight for you!!!
[02:26:37] <cnc_wright> water
[02:26:56] <cnc_wright> now you need a calibrated volume...Doh!
[02:26:59] <gezr> yeah, ive thought about a milk jug, but I need a full one to put a marker line
[02:27:07] <gezr> :)
[02:27:34] <gezr> calibrated from the cow, make a line, drink, fill with water :)
[02:27:50] <gezr> if im off half an oz its not going to matter enough
[02:28:36] <cnc_wright> I use german torque...gutentite
[02:30:12] <gezr> ill have good tools some day
[02:31:18] <gezr> so I dont have any of that french hardware laloose
[02:31:55] <cnc_wright> Do you have any kind of reference measurment device that you trust. Pressure gage etc...?
[02:31:56] <gezr> but for now, I got me one of them roundtoits that so far is only working on getting mine right
[02:32:20] <gezr> cnc_wright : no
[02:33:35] <cnc_wright> Do you have any measuring cups for cooking?
[02:33:44] <gezr> yeah
[02:33:55] <gezr> I could also use gasoline :)
[02:34:07] <gezr> pre balance the empty can, fill with gas, bingo
[02:34:22] <gezr> but then again thats not cool
[02:34:27] <cnc_wright> Is it one of the pyrex glass ones with lines on the side
[02:34:39] <gezr> yeah, I have good cookwares
[02:35:06] <cnc_wright> I bet they aren't too far off. To get the weight you need the error might add up though.
[02:35:56] <gezr> im going to take some weights I have to a local butcher shop
[02:36:18] <cnc_wright> Do you have any steel/plastic/??? straight tubing?
[02:36:25] <gezr> yep
[02:36:35] <gezr> I have tons of metal I can use
[02:37:08] <cnc_wright> ok. Steel tubing usually has a fairly constant wall thickness
[02:37:38] <cnc_wright> you can measure the inside diameter and length and calculate the volume.
[02:37:38] <gezr> yeah
[02:37:57] <Jymmm> gezr: post office scale in lobby
[02:38:24] <Jymmm> accurate to the ounce
[02:38:29] <cnc_wright> I'm pretty sure those things are rigged ;)
[02:38:35] <Jymmm> lol
[02:39:12] <Jymmm> thats how I calibrate my digital scale.... weigh my keys on mine, then ont he one at the PO.
[02:39:19] <Jymmm> 5.6 ounces
[02:40:03] <cnc_wright> Your keys are getting fat...a few minutes ago they were only 5.5 oz
[02:40:19] <Jymmm> ok, just a sec...
[02:40:35] <gezr> how many keys on that ring?
[02:41:54] <Jymmm> 5.6 ounces
[02:41:59] <cnc_wright> Do you have a biggish chunk of solid steel or lead?
[02:42:53] <cnc_wright> You could thow that in a bucket and use the measuring cup to measure its displacement.
[02:43:06] <Jymmm> 12 keys, a screwdriver, flashlight, remote control
[02:43:33] <cnc_wright> multiply the displacement volume by the density of steel and you have a known weight
[02:43:33] <gezr> cnc_wright : yeah there are a lot of options available
[02:44:18] <cnc_wright> This is an interesting challenge :)
[02:44:19] <Jymmm> this is nothign my BIG ring has like 48 keys on it.
[02:44:58] <gezr> I have 3 keys wait 4 keys total, house, car, toolbox top and bottom
[02:45:28] <gezr> too many if you ask me
[02:45:36] <gezr> I should just have 2
[02:45:46] <gezr> not sure why I havent benched my box keys
[02:45:50] <Jymmm> all my keys together weigh about 1.5 lbs
[02:47:15] <Jymmm> maybe two
[02:47:24] <Jymmm> but I used to be a locksmith
[02:55:04] <gezr> oh cool
[02:55:14] <gezr> sorry, ive been watching scifi friday :)
[02:56:23] <cnc_wright> the MIT guide to lockpicking in oh the 'net somewhere. It's good reading.
[03:01:15] <Jymmm> it's ok.
[03:06:17] <cnc_wright> auto login on xchat works...good bye ksirc.
[03:10:03] <K`zan> :-) BTDT :-)
[03:16:22] <K`zan> ksirc didn't enthrall me either :)
[03:19:12] <gezr> I use bitchx
[03:36:18] <Jymmm> what limits the wty of threads a lathe cna cut?
[03:36:31] <Jymmm> what limits the qty of threads a lathe can cut?
[03:46:10] <a-l-p-h-a> doh. paulc is gonzo
[03:46:11] <Jymmm> a-l-p-h-a you again?!
[03:47:03] <Jymmm> a-l-p-h-a jk
[03:51:50] <a-l-p-h-a> I need multimonitor help
[03:53:38] <Jymmm> nix?
[03:59:41] <a-l-p-h-a> ye
[03:59:42] <a-l-p-h-a> yes
[03:59:48] <a-l-p-h-a> I found xinerama or something
[04:00:06] <Jymmm> ah, no clue
[04:03:23] <a-l-p-h-a> man... paul_c broke my mouse wheel!
[04:09:57] <a-l-p-h-a> man... paul_c killed my system. time to download and burn the new distro. well... that was "horray" fun. :)
[06:32:13] <K`zan> Night folks!
[08:06:44] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
[08:06:48] <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
[08:08:22] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[08:08:22] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[09:44:59] <a-l-p-h-a> hey, paul_c ... what did you change on my system? :)
[09:45:27] <a-l-p-h-a> paul_c, in gnome my mousewheel is borked now.
[10:22:52] <les> good morning
[10:27:34] <alpha> alpha is now known as A-L-P-H-A_
[10:29:48] <A-L-P-H-A_> back, with a fresh install of linux
[10:52:39] <A-L-P-H-A> paul_c, well... appearantly, ubuntu changed from XFREE to XORG in this lastest release.
[10:52:41] <A-L-P-H-A> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..
[10:52:43] <A-L-P-H-A> GREAT!
[10:52:44] <A-L-P-H-A> :/
[10:52:49] <A-L-P-H-A> so time to hack away at it again
[11:46:42] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> paul_c, I still can't seem to do it... here's my xorg.conf http://pastebin.com/253950 and I started x, by typing "startx -- +xinerama" at the prompt.
[11:47:25] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I'm going for TWO monitors for now, and I'll toss in the other ones when I get two working
[11:58:06] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> got two working now
[12:35:27] <atmel1> atmel1 is now known as roel1
[12:35:34] <roel1> hi
[12:51:02] <alex_joni> greetings
[13:32:05] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> YES! works now.
[15:19:23] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> hi rayh
[15:19:37] <rayh> Hey. How you doing today.
[15:21:18] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> GOOD!
[15:21:23] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I got linux up and running on my desktop.
[15:21:31] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> and got windows XP to dual boot off it.
[15:25:15] <joe2000chevy> hello
[15:27:09] <joe2000chevy> has anyone made their own power suply? im using 12v psu for now, want more power :)
[15:28:50] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> joe2000chevy, up I have.
[15:29:37] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> umm... 36V 10amp driver... get good speed out of that on my bench top mill. and a 72V 6?amps.
[15:30:04] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> transformer -> Bridge Rectifier -> capacitor -> fuses -> geckos.
[15:30:26] <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> joe2000chevy, see... www.geckodrive.com for power supply information. as well as check out CCED
[15:37:54] <joe2000chevy> wanted to see how to build one cheap
[15:38:11] <alex_joni> hello joe2000chevy
[15:38:45] <joe2000chevy> hi alex
[15:39:54] <joe2000chevy> or wanted to find something cheap and ripout power suply. like 30v or so
[15:45:42] <joe2000chevy> anyone?? :)
[15:47:13] <rayh> I used to mess around with surplus transformers for these sorts of things.
[15:47:32] <rayh> Came to the conclusion over the years and through the smoke.
[15:48:14] <rayh> That either I used an industrial 480/220 primary 110 secondary transformer.
[15:48:31] <rayh> Or I call AvelLindberg and have then ship me a torroid.
[15:48:58] <joe2000chevy> i take it your not in the states?
[15:49:04] <rayh> AL is about $80 bucks for a 1kva transformer.
[15:49:20] <rayh> I am. U.P. Michigan.
[15:49:53] <joe2000chevy> k
[15:49:54] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[15:50:10] <rayh> With a 480/240 transformer and 120 on the plug, I can get about 60, or 30 vac.
[15:50:23] <rayh> Hi Alex.
[15:50:42] <rayh> Nother 3 inches of great snowman snow.
[15:51:25] <alex_joni> cool... it's raining here
[15:52:27] <joe2000chevy> sunny day here
[15:52:31] <rayh> Bridge rectify that 60 or 30 and get a load of rock solid 82 or 41 volts DC/
[15:54:23] <rayh> In my shop, I don't much care how big the transformer is.
[15:54:23] <joe2000chevy> ray thats over my head right now.
[15:54:38] <rayh> You could even use one of the smaller welding transformers.
[15:55:02] <rayh> 40 volts or so at 150 amps.
[15:55:09] <joe2000chevy> someone said a microwave oven transf.?
[15:55:39] <rayh> Yep if you don't mind ripping off the secondary and winding your own on.
[15:55:59] <rayh> Many of these primaries are good for a kva or so.
[15:56:36] <rayh> The only issue is cooling. Many are made for warming a cup of soup rather than
[15:56:48] <rayh> cooking a 5 lb bowl of potatoes.
[15:57:18] <rayh> Just have to keep the fan in about the same place.
[15:57:47] <joe2000chevy> ok
[15:59:23] <rayh> You're near SJ, CA>
[16:00:16] <rayh> I'd think there would be surplus places thereabouts.
[16:00:57] <rayh> Look for industrial control transformers.
[16:01:17] <A-L-P-H-A> I look at windows, and i ask myself. why?
[16:02:21] <rayh> MS-Windows(tm) or ???
[16:02:35] <A-L-P-H-A> rayh, yes. WindowsXP.
[16:03:07] <rayh> Ah right. You gotta admit it is slick.
[16:03:48] <joe2000chevy> im in texas
[16:04:04] <rayh> texas. Sorry.
[16:04:21] <rayh> Got a city nearby?
[16:04:29] <joe2000chevy> im in san antonio
[16:04:36] <A-L-P-H-A> heh... are you sorry that he's a Texan?
[16:04:46] <joe2000chevy> lol
[16:05:01] <rayh> Should be a lot of surplus electrical stuff.
[16:05:04] <joe2000chevy> and yes i deive a truck, lol
[16:05:06] <A-L-P-H-A> Lots of nice people, just very opinionated as well.
[16:05:22] <rayh> Na. Up here I get all those northern european jokes so I know the feeling.
[16:05:56] <joe2000chevy> well got to run for a while be back later, ya'll have a nice day
[16:06:13] <rayh> See you. Good luck hunting for a PS
[16:06:42] <gezr> morning ya'll
[16:06:43] <rayh> A-L-P-H-A: Your xp comment was about the new install?
[16:07:38] <rayh> Hey.
[16:08:02] <A-L-P-H-A> rayh, no. ubuntu 5.04, with newest gnome.
[16:08:23] <A-L-P-H-A> made it behave the way I like.
[16:08:34] <A-L-P-H-A> multimonitor finally works... :)
[16:09:03] <rayh> Good. I was watching some of the strugle the other day.
[16:09:53] <rayh> Only had 1 experience with gnome. RH 5.0. Tried it and when I clicked the
[16:09:57] <A-L-P-H-A> omg. paul_c shut down my computer, while I wasn't at home... [I gave him my root pass]... I got worried when I came home. Saw my computer shut off... well... took me like 4 hours this morning to get it to work. :)
[16:10:15] <rayh> file browser it put more than 100 of them up in about 5 seconds.
[16:10:22] <A-L-P-H-A> new root pass now. new install :) so no worries.
[16:10:32] <A-L-P-H-A> SEE it's FAST! :) hehehehe
[16:10:56] <A-L-P-H-A> KDE is just kinda KluDgE to me... I like gnome, it's slicker.
[16:10:57] <gezr> A-L-P-H-A : hahahahaha
[16:10:58] <rayh> Great.
[16:11:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder if there is even more of a minimalistic window manager...
[16:11:41] <A-L-P-H-A> I remember hearing a few things... I forget which.
[16:11:42] <gezr> oh yeah :)
[16:11:51] <rayh> IceWM
[16:11:55] <gezr> I cant remember the name of what I use but its aswome
[16:11:57] <gezr> fluxbox
[16:12:01] <gezr> or blackbox
[16:12:03] <A-L-P-H-A> well, it's right now, just two bars on the middle screen.
[16:12:05] <rayh> It was the first one on Live.
[16:12:06] <A-L-P-H-A> fluxbox! that's it.
[16:12:08] <gezr> top of the line
[16:12:25] <A-L-P-H-A> heard of blackbox as well.
[16:12:44] <gezr> they are the same, I think black became flux or the other way around
[16:12:50] <rayh> Paul often goes a lot lower than that. MidnightCommander and a curses text mode.
[16:13:04] <A-L-P-H-A> well... little different when you have 3 monitors... as opposed to the same monitor... real estate is not as important anymore
[16:13:17] <alex_joni> * alex_joni loves mc
[16:13:21] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, he got me to install MC, so he could go nuts. :)
[16:13:25] <gezr> ive seen folks who cant live without mc
[16:13:35] <alex_joni> I agree
[16:13:40] <gezr> im a command line junkie
[16:13:43] <A-L-P-H-A> I like bash.
[16:13:48] <rayh> I can get into the "curses" part of it.
[16:14:13] <A-L-P-H-A> I just need to make symbolic links for all DOS/Windows commands to Unix commands.
[16:14:26] <rayh> paul says not need to run as root any more -- he's never tried to do root stuff from
[16:14:36] <rayh> an autologin to kde.
[16:14:40] <A-L-P-H-A> like DIR, CLR/CLS (I forget), stuff like that.
[16:14:53] <rayh> except by starting "sudo mc"
[16:15:29] <A-L-P-H-A> I guess that's true, unless you're setting up a deamon.
[16:15:37] <rayh> I've got to visit some of my kids and gkids today. Catch you all later.
[16:15:40] <A-L-P-H-A> which then you'd want some fun.
[16:15:46] <gezr> rayh : take care
[16:15:49] <alex_joni> rayh: catch you later
[16:15:49] <A-L-P-H-A> later rayh
[16:15:51] <A-L-P-H-A> have a good one
[16:16:05] <rayh> You bet. Thanks
[16:42:13] <les> hi ray
[16:42:24] <les> oh my g92 posts again
[16:42:32] <alex_joni> hey les
[16:42:32] <alex_joni> ray left
[16:42:32] <les> hi alex
[16:43:17] <les> Well in my 9 month old emc build g92 works exactly as per ray's paper
[16:43:48] <les> The only bug was in the display
[16:44:08] <les> sometimes offsets in wffwct were not displayed
[16:44:25] <les> effect
[16:44:27] <les> oops
[16:45:32] <les> perhaps I should post something else
[16:45:49] <les> CRADEK: have you had problems with g92?
[16:46:09] <les> (guess you have)
[16:46:39] <les> I use it most every day but only in MDI mode.
[16:47:01] <alex_joni> what's G92 ?
[16:47:06] <les> and always a G92.1 when powering up
[16:47:13] <les> coordinate offset
[16:48:05] <les> for example I want 0.75 inch above the table to be the z zero in my production program
[16:48:20] <alex_joni> right
[16:48:47] <les> so each morning I put a couple .75 inch parallels on the table
[16:49:02] <les> bring down the tool till it nearly touches them
[16:49:22] <les> take a circular spark plug gage and measure the gap
[16:49:33] <alex_joni> right
[16:49:36] <les> the MDI G92<gap>
[16:50:28] <les> I think some confusion arises because the offset is not shown on the main coordinate display
[16:51:42] <alex_joni> the same thing happened to an0nimasu
[16:52:30] <les> Well it has very specific rules as to when it is sticky and when it is not
[16:52:35] <les> confusing to many
[16:52:43] <les> have to read the paper
[16:52:56] <les> agreed that it is a dangerouds command
[16:53:03] <les> dangerous
[16:53:17] <les> but I di use it every day with no problems
[17:03:11] <les> are you here chris?
[17:03:19] <les> heheh
[17:03:40] <cradek> more or less
[17:04:00] <les> saw your g92 post
[17:04:25] <les> I use it every day but one must read the paper to tkow the quirks
[17:04:36] <les> specifically when aborting
[17:05:10] <les> I agree it is a dangerous command
[17:05:34] <les> might be very dangerous if there are no home switches
[17:06:44] <les> yeikes getting wind gusts to about 50 kts here
[17:06:44] <cradek> it's possible it works fine but it's sometimes done things I don't expect.
[17:07:03] <cradek> last time I tried to use it, it was in combination with running from the middle of the program
[17:07:24] <cradek> just a bad idea, none of that works very predictably.
[17:07:29] <les> that might have invoked the abort bug
[17:07:43] <cradek> what does abort do to g92?
[17:08:28] <les> It suspends it but leaves the value in the offset and relative position display
[17:08:46] <les> that is a serious problem if you don't know about it
[17:08:51] <cradek> suspends the offset?
[17:08:56] <les> yes
[17:09:03] <cradek> yikes
[17:09:08] <les> but it still shows on the gui
[17:09:18] <cradek> I wonder if it's just a gui bug
[17:09:29] <cradek> you should file a bug report in the sf tracker
[17:10:01] <les> Rather than just reference the paper (which decribes this in detail) I perhaps should have mentioned it on the list
[17:10:26] <les> It is well known and was discussed a bunch earlier
[17:10:26] <cradek> well, a bug is still a bug even if it's documented in a paper somewhere
[17:10:34] <les> yeah
[17:10:36] <cradek> I think you should file a bug report if you think it's a bug.
[17:10:44] <les> I think Ray put something in
[17:10:47] <les> long ago
[17:10:56] <cradek> looking...
[17:11:11] <les> I also think Keith fixed it locally on his machine
[17:12:04] <cradek> it's been closed with no comment.
[17:12:55] <les> hmm
[17:13:41] <cradek> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=457208&group_id=6744&atid=106744
[17:15:46] <les> Well I imagine the bug is still there.
[17:16:21] <les> I brought up the whole issue a year or so ago which prompted Ray to write the paper
[17:16:41] <les> Since it is such a potentially serious crash maker
[17:17:00] <les> I have no problems since I know what it does
[17:18:57] <gezr> why use g92 or its .x?
[17:19:25] <les> Gezr: couple reasons...to set z height
[17:19:36] <gezr> tool lenght offset
[17:19:53] <les> and to compensate for a bolted on MDF fixture shrinking and swelling
[17:20:14] <les> I use tool offset too but that is a different command
[17:20:53] <les> I simultaneously use g92, tool offset, and G10/G5x
[17:21:00] <gezr> it just seems to me that while an effective command g92 may not be the proper way or method to use
[17:21:20] <gezr> g10 is work coridinate shift right?
[17:21:45] <les> Well it is usually used for that...and emc's g92 conforms to the rs274 spec
[17:21:51] <les> except for abort
[17:21:56] <les> that is a bug for sure
[17:22:07] <gezr> g92 is acting modal then?
[17:22:12] <les> g10: yes
[17:22:22] <les> over rides the .var values
[17:22:29] <gezr> ah
[17:23:05] <les> G92 is not strictly modal but has some specific rules as to when it's there and when it's not
[17:23:32] <les> One needs to read the paper carefully before using it
[17:23:40] <gezr> yeah, I agree
[17:23:42] <les> or it will be crash city for sure
[17:25:32] <gezr> les : let me know if im wrong here
[17:25:49] <gezr> les : if you used only one tool, and it would last forever
[17:26:15] <gezr> once that tool is set, your program proved out, and things set up,
[17:26:28] <gezr> all you would need to do at power on is home the machine and then cycle start right?
[17:27:17] <gezr> assuming vise moving trools didnt enter your shop over night
[17:29:47] <les> Gezr: yes in some cases
[17:30:15] <les> In my case no....because 0,0,0 is down in between some clamps
[17:30:38] <les> so a rapid frome some unknown place could crash into them
[17:31:35] <les> My 0,0,0 at startup is way in the air...middle of travel of x, y, and z
[17:31:39] <les> brbphone
[17:41:21] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes home
[17:41:22] <alex_joni> bye guys
[17:41:32] <alex_joni> I'm afraid I'll miss tomorrow's meeting
[17:44:35] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/ (iotask/usrmotintf.c motion/Makefile task/Makefile): Spotted a few objects that were being linked twice - Once from libemc.a and again with an explicit line.
[17:57:46] <les> heh grandmaw on the phone
[17:58:19] <les> Hmm 50 knot winds...
[17:58:51] <les> This might be a great day to open the overhead doors in the shop and blow everything out with air
[17:59:30] <les> So I think I will do that
[18:42:17] <jmkasunich> jepler, cradek: you guys here or just lurking?
[18:54:38] <chessie4> lo
[18:55:00] <jmkasunich> hi
[18:55:19] <chessie4> i am trying to catch up on emc developments
[18:55:35] <jmkasunich> anything in particular?
[18:55:44] <chessie4> do i understand correctly that there is debain package for emc
[18:55:59] <jepler> jmkasunich: I just happened to glance over. What's up?
[18:56:07] <jmkasunich> yes
[18:56:11] <chessie4> that i can simply install the package instead of doing full BDI install?
[18:56:24] <jmkasunich> jepler: was wondering if you know whether you're going to fest yet
[18:56:38] <jmkasunich> chessie4: I don't know the details of the deb
[18:56:44] <chessie4> hmm
[18:56:49] <jmkasunich> I do know that you still need a RT kernel
[18:56:52] <jepler> jmkasunich: No, it looks like I won't.
[18:57:02] <jmkasunich> bummer
[18:57:12] <jepler> and since I'm 'done' with axis anyway, I dunno what I'd have to contribute
[18:57:33] <jmkasunich> nothing's ever "
[18:57:34] <chessie4> so perhaps i AM better off doing BDI
[18:57:37] <jmkasunich> oops
[18:57:48] <jmkasunich> nothing's ever "done" in software
[18:58:15] <jepler> yeah, cradek was kind enough to discover a half dozen bugs in testing the evening before we put out 1.0
[18:58:26] <jmkasunich> chessie4: that would be my preferred approach, unless you are a Linux guru with strong preferences for a differnet distro
[18:58:36] <chessie4> ok, is there a changelog showing BDI-2.xx vs 4.XX?
[18:58:51] <jepler> chessie4: I think that paul_c has packaged the real-time kernel as a .deb
[18:59:01] <jmkasunich> to be honest, I haven't been keeping up with BDI-4
[18:59:02] <chessie4> i have no preferences, i just seem to get along better with debina
[18:59:24] <jepler> I thought bdi 4.xx was debian still
[18:59:30] <jmkasunich> paul is the expert... he's lurking here, might pop up with answers, might not if he's away from his screen
[18:59:54] <jmkasunich> jepler: 4 is based on deb, 2 was based on RH
[19:00:12] <chessie4> my next question is hardware. i do have a K6 box lying around, and a P120 box
[19:00:31] <chessie4> BDI-4 does not like either?
[19:01:22] <jmkasunich> dunno... I expect that the P120 would struggle, not so much with EMC but with the other bloat that seems to be affecting even Linux in the newer distros (/soapbox)
[19:01:50] <jmkasunich> how fast and how much RAM in the K6 box?
[19:02:02] <chessie4> yeah, gone are the days of nice tidy linux boxes
[19:02:17] <jepler> here's the emc list post about the .deb kernel packages: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10542679
[19:02:19] <chessie4> i think i have enough ram to get it to at least 128, if not 256
[19:02:27] <jmkasunich> I still have some... course they are running BDI-2 ;-)
[19:02:33] <jepler> To use the repository, add the following line to your /etc/apt/sources.list
[19:02:33] <jepler>
[19:02:34] <jepler> deb http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bdi-emc/debian/ ./
[19:03:13] <chessie4> of course my other issue is stepper drivers
[19:03:30] <jepler> what about them?
[19:03:33] <jmkasunich> if you want to run steppers, the P120 is definitely too slow
[19:04:38] <chessie4> steppers: everything i have looked at and read up on suggests gecko 201's
[19:04:54] <chessie4> i was hoping to find a less expensive solution.
[19:05:02] <jmkasunich> how big are your steppers? NEMA 17, NEMA 23, NEMA 34, NEMA 42?
[19:05:08] <chessie4> i have 6-wire nema 34 steppers
[19:05:19] <jmkasunich> then you want geckos, IMHO
[19:05:20] <chessie4> the mill came prebuilt with them
[19:05:48] <chessie4> so i know they were ;sized; right
[19:06:01] <jmkasunich> for NEMA 23 and smaller, the Xylotex drives are nice, about $50 per axis instead of $120 or so
[19:06:04] <jepler> cradek uses l287/l298-based stepper boards in half-stepping mode. I think the parts cost him ~$100, and he was able to make the circuit boards on his mill with his previous driver setup. http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc
[19:06:19] <jepler> but his are NEMA23, 1.mumble amps
[19:06:20] <chessie4> i was hoping to use pico-systems universal stepper board too
[19:06:34] <chessie4> these motors are labeled are 4.8A
[19:06:49] <jmkasunich> EMC + Pico USC + Geckos should be a nice setup
[19:07:19] <chessie4> gecko 201's from gecko are $115 or so. frankly for $15, i will save myself the frustration
[19:07:34] <jepler> chessie4: $100 for 4 axes
[19:07:40] <jepler> gecko 201 per axis, right?
[19:07:58] <chessie4> umm no $115/axis
[19:08:00] <chessie4> :(
[19:08:34] <chessie4> hmm, looking at timeguy's pages
[19:08:45] <jmkasunich> cradek's $100 + labor for 4 axis should be compared to xylotex, not Gecko... Xylotex is 30V 2.5A, gecko is 80V 7A
[19:09:20] <jepler> looks like L298 is 46V 4A
[19:10:13] <jepler> you can parallel the outputs of L298 to get 46V 8A
[19:10:31] <chessie4> ok, motors are 1.8V, 4.8A.
[19:10:38] <jmkasunich> hmmm... not bad
[19:11:06] <jmkasunich> (the L298's that is)... do they microstep? unipolar or bipolar?
[19:11:07] <chessie4> for X&Y. Z is 2.6V, 4.6A
[19:11:19] <chessie4> 6 wire, i think unipolar
[19:11:39] <jmkasunich> 6 wire can be used either way
[19:11:50] <jepler> as unipolar or as bipolar series?
[19:11:52] <jmkasunich> I was asking about the L298 drivers...
[19:12:08] <jepler> jmkasunich: l297+l298 is half-step, bipolar
[19:12:12] <jmkasunich> 6 wire can be unipolar, bipolar single winding, or bipoler series
[19:12:23] <chessie4> this is why i ma getting confused
[19:12:24] <jmkasunich> chopper or L/R or ?
[19:12:42] <jepler> l297 is chopper
[19:13:23] <jmkasunich> 297 is the "brain" and 298 is the H bridge?
[19:13:27] <chessie4> i think i need to break out a VOM and trace the windings
[19:13:47] <jmkasunich> chessie4: yes... 6 lead motor is usually 2 center tapped windings
[19:13:57] <jmkasunich> bipolar series you use the two ends
[19:14:12] <jmkasunich> bipolar single you use one center tap and one end
[19:14:30] <jepler> huh. I've never heard of doing bipolar single. Is there a benefit to it?
[19:14:33] <jmkasunich> unipolar you connect both center taps to the power supply and drive all four ends
[19:15:06] <jmkasunich> bipolar single has 1/4 the inductance, you can get more high speed torq at the expense of somewhat less low speed torq
[19:15:45] <jmkasunich> usually bipolar single runs at 1.414 times the bipolar series current
[19:16:02] <jmkasunich> bipolar parallel runs at 2 times the series current, but needs an 8 lead motor
[19:16:21] <jepler> cradek's are 8-leads, I'm pretty sure they're wired for bipolar parallel
[19:16:35] <jepler> I mean, that's how they're currently hooked up
[19:16:42] <jmkasunich> that's the best, assuming you have enough amps to drive it
[19:17:45] <chessie4> i am looking at http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/types.html
[19:18:37] <chessie4> for a diagram. i should be able to ID the triple pairs via continutity right?
[19:19:31] <chessie4> and then ID 1 & 2 of the triple as the resitance between a:1 and a:b should be half?
[19:22:27] <jepler> if you get no connection between x and y they are on separate windings. If you get R then they're opposite ends of the winding, and if you get R/2 then one is the center tap for that winding.
[19:22:32] <jepler> I think that's what you said
[19:23:50] <robin_sz> I usually find the "twisting some wires to gether and trying to turn it" method to be fairly succesful
[19:24:18] <jmkasunich> even for identifying the center tap?
[19:24:22] <robin_sz> yeah
[19:24:41] <robin_sz> even I can feel the difference between a whole and half a coil
[19:25:21] <jmkasunich> variations in "twist resistance" may be easier to identify than variations in electrical resistance, if both R and R/2 are well below one ohm
[19:25:47] <chessie4> i have continuity between 2 groups of three wires
[19:25:59] <chessie4> if you will wires 1-3-5 and 2-4-6
[19:26:18] <jmkasunich> OK, so now you just need to figure out which ones are the center taps
[19:26:52] <robin_sz> short 1-3 ... turn it
[19:26:59] <robin_sz> shor 3-5 turn it
[19:27:07] <robin_sz> if they feel the same ..
[19:27:19] <robin_sz> short 1-5 .. that shoudl feel different
[19:27:32] <jmkasunich> more difficult to turn
[19:27:39] <robin_sz> in which case 3 is centre tap
[19:27:41] <robin_sz> yep
[19:28:06] <jmkasunich> center tap, for them what doesn't speak British
[19:28:13] <chessie4> sorry- i am confused. if i jumper the motors w/o any power i should feel the difference?
[19:28:15] <robin_sz> you can use "turning" to identify phase on 8 wire motors too
[19:28:24] <robin_sz> yes.
[19:28:29] <jmkasunich> chessie4: yes, no power required
[19:28:43] <jmkasunich> motor should turn rather easily with nothing shortec
[19:28:45] <jmkasunich> motor should turn rather easily with nothing shorted
[19:28:47] <chessie4> ok, lemme find a jumper
[19:29:06] <jmkasunich> and be harder to turn when a winding or windings are shorted
[19:29:30] <Jymmm> how is that?
[19:29:32] <robin_sz> Im assuming these are not on a machine
[19:29:49] <robin_sz> Jymmm: its a generator driving a dead short
[19:29:49] <chessie4> i have one off the machine
[19:29:51] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: how is what?
[19:30:42] <robin_sz> anyway, its an old trick, but it works
[19:30:46] <Jymmm> robin_sz: I understand the generator part, but if you short two leads that sholuld be generating some juice, how is that effecting the motion?
[19:31:01] <Jymmm> least resistance?
[19:31:05] <robin_sz> Jymmm: do you have a tepper motor?
[19:31:09] <Jymmm> yeah
[19:31:17] <robin_sz> well, try it and you'll see
[19:31:53] <Jymmm> I believe you. But I'm trying to understand how shorting one coil would effect the mechanical motion
[19:32:08] <Jymmm> is it feedback?
[19:32:11] <robin_sz> well ... when you turn it a current flows in the coil
[19:32:14] <jmkasunich> magnet moves near coil, induces voltage in the coil
[19:32:19] <robin_sz> because its acting as a generator
[19:32:29] <jmkasunich> since coil is shorted, voltage causes current to flow in coil
[19:32:39] <Jymmm> Ah, so it's it one worse enemy
[19:32:45] <Jymmm> chinese finger puzzle
[19:32:49] <robin_sz> you expect the motor to exert a force when you pass current from a drive right?
[19:33:00] <robin_sz> its the same thhing
[19:33:01] <jmkasunich> current in coil makes a magnetic field that resists the motion
[19:33:04] <robin_sz> left and right hand rules
[19:33:33] <Jymmm> and a to CT should be 50% the resistance than a a- ?
[19:33:38] <jmkasunich> if the coil isn't shorted, the moving magnet still induces a voltage in the coil, but no current flows, hence no resistance
[19:33:48] <jmkasunich> yes
[19:33:54] <chessie4> ok, shorting 1-3 is hard
[19:34:13] <chessie4> 1-5 'normal'
[19:34:19] <Jymmm> is this property ever used in circuits for braking?
[19:34:30] <robin_sz> all the time
[19:34:35] <jmkasunich> "normal" as in "same as when not shorted at all"?
[19:35:25] <chessie4> 'normal' is the unshorted ratcheing
[19:35:41] <jmkasunich> hmm... that's strange
[19:35:52] <jmkasunich> when nothing at all is shorted, it should be pretty easy to turn
[19:36:05] <robin_sz> Jymmm: all the electric metro trains use motor braking to either return power to the grid, or warm the carriages
[19:36:25] <chessie4> yes, it is easy to turn, but there is a bit of grainy-ness to the motion
[19:36:28] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: theres usually a little cogging
[19:36:34] <jmkasunich> yeah, a little
[19:36:47] <robin_sz> so , shorting 1-5 makes no difference then?
[19:37:49] <robin_sz> pretty much the same as un-shorted??
[19:37:59] <Jymmm> robin_szL That's interesting. I saw a special about locomotives. They use masive diesel generators to drive electric motors. I thought it was very unusual to have such massive diesel engine driving a generator instead of a transmission.
[19:38:29] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: the generator/motor combination works like a transmission, in a way
[19:38:32] <robin_sz> Jymmm: no, its extremelyt common .. diesel electric is probably THE most common self coantianed diesl loco
[19:38:53] <jmkasunich> contained even
[19:38:58] <robin_sz> well yes
[19:39:02] <robin_sz> that as well
[19:39:03] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[19:39:05] <chessie4> robin_sz: yes
[19:39:15] <chessie4> sorry, 1-3 hard, 1-5 not hard
[19:39:18] <Jymmm> I understand that, what I'm saying is bypass the electric motors completely
[19:39:23] <jmkasunich> what about 3-5?
[19:39:52] <robin_sz> Jymmm: ok, fine .. you mean diesel driving the wheels?
[19:39:57] <chessie4> sorry, 1-3 hard, 1-5, 3-5 not hard
[19:40:02] <Jymmm> robin_sz correct
[19:40:02] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: then you would need A) a complex transmission (many speeds) and B) some wild driveshafts and U-joints to drive all wheels
[19:40:13] <chessie4> 2-4 hard, 2-6 $ 4-6 not hard
[19:40:21] <robin_sz> and one hell of a clutch
[19:40:50] <jmkasunich> chessie4: but your meter says 2-6 and 4-6 are connected?
[19:41:00] <robin_sz> Jymmm: in a word, diesel-electric has less moving parts and more efficiency
[19:41:16] <Jymmm> but I suspect they didn't have good electric motors till the 50's. what about before then?
[19:41:20] <chessie4> yes, 1-3-5 and 2-4-6
[19:41:24] <jmkasunich> I'd say that 5 and 6 are your center taps then
[19:41:41] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: before 1950? steam ;-)
[19:41:43] <chessie4> i am trying to read resitance of the pairs. how much should it be?
[19:41:43] <robin_sz> Jymmm: no they hav had good electric motors for many many years .. and before then we had steam
[19:42:09] <Jymmm> wait a second.... it went from steam DIRECTLY to diesel/electric?
[19:42:18] <jmkasunich> it's gonna be low... 1.8V at 4.6A is just more than 1/3 of an ohm
[19:42:27] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: pretty much
[19:42:30] <robin_sz> what they lacked pre-1950 was not motors or generatros .. it was comapct diesels
[19:43:01] <jmkasunich> chessie4: your meter leads and connections are probably close to 1/3 ohm, so it's gonna be hard to measure accurately
[19:43:21] <robin_sz> Jymmm: do you think a 72 piston, 36 cylinder two-strok supercharged diesel with 3 crankshafts will work?
[19:43:33] <robin_sz> and no cylinder heads?
[19:43:41] <jmkasunich> sure
[19:44:01] <jmkasunich> just can't remember what it was called.... on the tip of my tongue
[19:44:11] <jmkasunich> delta
[19:44:13] <jmkasunich> no
[19:44:22] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Would that be for the X-Axis or the Y-axis?
[19:44:30] <jmkasunich> lol
[19:44:41] <robin_sz> http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/delticengine.gif
[19:44:43] <robin_sz> deltic
[19:44:49] <jmkasunich> I was close
[19:44:55] <chessie4> wait, i think i messed up. i am rading things backwards
[19:45:11] <robin_sz> http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/delticengine.htm
[19:45:38] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: I like the fairbanks morse engine used in US WWII submarines
[19:45:51] <jmkasunich> like one bank of a deltic - upper and lower crankshafts
[19:47:23] <robin_sz> hey, do you have access to a lathe and a mill ??
[19:47:32] <jmkasunich> who, me? yes
[19:47:41] <robin_sz> oh, I have a small project for you
[19:47:57] <robin_sz> just a couple of hours one evening ..
[19:47:59] <robin_sz> http://www.ptfnasty.com/images/jpg/DCP_0484.JPG
[19:48:19] <robin_sz> let me know how it turns out ;)
[19:48:25] <jmkasunich> knew what it was before I even opened it
[19:48:31] <robin_sz> heh ;)
[19:48:48] <chessie4> ok, this makes more sense now: 1-3-6. 1-3 and 1-6 and 3-6 are all hard
[19:49:10] <jmkasunich> If I ever have several hundred spare hours, I'd make a model of the FM sub engine... only 9 cyls and 18 pistons
[19:49:31] <robin_sz> chessie4: on of those pairs shoudl be harder ...
[19:49:44] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: what, you dieing next week or something?
[19:50:05] <jmkasunich> no, just 10 times more projects than time to do them in
[19:50:13] <Jymmm> ah ok
[19:50:40] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: a "boxer" engine is the term I think
[19:50:52] <jmkasunich> ?
[19:51:02] <robin_sz> pistons punching towards each other
[19:51:27] <jmkasunich> I thought boxer was horizontally opposed, crankshaft in center, pistons going out (with conventional heads), like a Porshe or VW engine
[19:51:45] <robin_sz> I thought it was mis-used on those .. I could be wrong
[19:52:00] <jmkasunich> or maybe the "boxer" is an English term for it
[19:52:14] <chessie4> ok, now i am in oblivion.
[19:52:33] <robin_sz> all 3 combinations feel the same?
[19:52:36] <chessie4> of the group 1-3-6, 1-3, 1-6 and 3-6 are hard
[19:52:43] <robin_sz> equally hard?
[19:53:09] <chessie4> thats what i was trying to figure out. i swear on felt harder, but i can not tell
[19:53:19] <robin_sz> ok, then its meter time
[19:53:34] <chessie4> ok, my problem with the meter is the right range
[19:53:41] <robin_sz> for me, its been obvious .. but, maybe I was lucky with motors
[19:54:19] <chessie4> range set to Ohms
[19:55:36] <robin_sz> all read the same, probably too low for you to measure
[19:55:50] <robin_sz> then try measuring AC volts at a particular cranking speed
[19:56:04] <robin_sz> more than one way to do this thing :)
[19:56:14] <robin_sz> * robin_sz goes out to play with lasers again
[19:56:41] <chessie4> well, the readings fluctuate. 3-5 is definitely higher thatn 1-3 or 1-5
[19:57:11] <robin_sz> I thought it was 1 3 6 ..??
[19:57:12] <robin_sz> not 5
[19:57:42] <chessie4> range set to Ohmscrap, i did it again
[19:58:12] <jmkasunich> robin_sz: http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/chap3.htm#fig3-34
[20:00:34] <robin_sz> coo
[20:00:35] <robin_sz> nice
[20:00:53] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: the crank looks simple enough, why not make one tomorow as a start on this?
[20:00:56] <jmkasunich> that website is amazing.. the books there describe nearly every bolt on the subs
[20:01:01] <robin_sz> then .. after lunch ...
[20:01:21] <robin_sz> you could do the liners ...
[20:01:50] <jmkasunich> after I convert my Shoptask to CNC maybe
[20:02:08] <jmkasunich> after all, gotta make 9 (or is it 10) identical ones
[20:02:29] <chessie4> i think i got it this time: 1-6 low, 3-6 low, 1-3 high
[20:02:41] <jmkasunich> then 6 is your center tap
[20:02:56] <Jymmm> this must be a whimpy stepper, I cant short it and make it lock up solid.
[20:03:04] <jmkasunich> 1-6 and 3-6 are half winding, 1-3 is end-to-end
[20:03:13] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: it will never lock up solid
[20:03:27] <jmkasunich> the current that opposes movement is induced by the movement
[20:03:34] <jmkasunich> no movement, no current, no force
[20:03:53] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I meant to the point that I couldn't turn it anymore
[20:04:00] <Jymmm> or VERY difficult
[20:04:02] <jmkasunich> I know
[20:04:24] <Jymmm> kinda like a tractor pull =)
[20:04:42] <jmkasunich> the force that resists movement is proportional to speed.... if you turn it very, very slow, there will be almost no resistance
[20:05:04] <jmkasunich> the faster it turns, the more current is generated, and the more it resists turning
[20:05:09] <chessie4> 2-4 low, 2-5 low, 4-5 high
[20:05:21] <jmkasunich> 5 is the center tap.... ta-da!
[20:05:25] <Jymmm> I was thinking of connecting a hand crank and make a lil game out of it
[20:05:29] <jmkasunich> oops, sorry
[20:05:38] <jmkasunich> 2 is the center tap
[20:06:06] <chessie4> so i SHOULD feel it harder when i short which pairs?
[20:06:17] <jmkasunich> the ends
[20:06:25] <Jymmm> "Make the green light stay on for 60 seconds and win $100"
[20:06:28] <chessie4> 4-5 and 1-3
[20:06:50] <jmkasunich> yes
[20:07:46] <robin_sz> right, back later guys
[20:07:53] <jmkasunich> bye robin
[20:08:19] <chessie4> THANKS!
[20:08:30] <chessie4> ok, the difference is really subtle
[20:09:26] <chessie4> so i guess its confirmed that these are unipolar motors
[20:09:40] <jmkasunich> but they can be used bipolar too
[20:09:52] <jmkasunich> since the two sets of windings aren't connected
[20:10:10] <chessie4> what is the tradeoff using them as bipolar?
[20:10:29] <jmkasunich> the only true "unipolar only" motors are the 5 wire ones, where the two center taps are connected together and brought out on a single wire... those can't be used bipolar
[20:10:46] <jmkasunich> unipolar vs. bipolar are two different types of drives
[20:11:03] <jmkasunich> gecko and xylotex are both bipolar, for example
[20:11:16] <jmkasunich> (most high performance modern drives are bipolar)
[20:11:33] <jmkasunich> unipolar needs fewer power transistors, so it was popular back in the old days
[20:11:35] <chessie4> i am looking at http://www.pminmo.com/
[20:11:47] <jmkasunich> but bipolar gets more out of the motor
[20:11:58] <chessie4> i would say these motors/machine are at least 15yo
[20:12:21] <jmkasunich> did you spell that URL right? doesn't work for me
[20:12:48] <jmkasunich> the motors can be used either way, it's the drives that determine whether it is uni or bi
[20:13:02] <chessie4> copy-paste. its the parent to the board cradek cites
[20:13:23] <jmkasunich> hmmm
[20:14:16] <jmkasunich> worked that time... I must have copy/pasted wrong at my end
[20:15:04] <chessie4> ok, so maybe my priorities are messed up. but i cringe at spending $400 on geckos
[20:15:18] <jmkasunich> I can understand that
[20:15:18] <chessie4> i feel better spending $250 with pico
[20:15:22] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is a cheapskate
[20:15:38] <chessie4> do i have any cheaper options for stepper drivers?
[20:15:53] <chessie4> i assume that i should check my other motors out too
[20:16:23] <chessie4> now that we have identified them as unipolar and that i can run them as bipolar?
[20:16:52] <chessie4> the whole amperage-voltage thing still has me wierded out
[20:17:38] <jmkasunich> it can get complicated
[20:17:58] <chessie4> i have been cautioned about resonance with NEMA34 motors
[20:18:08] <jmkasunich> depends on the drive you user
[20:18:14] <jmkasunich> use
[20:19:37] <jmkasunich> drive choices are a tradeoff... microstepping vs half or fullstepping, chopper vs. non-chopper, etc
[20:20:13] <jmkasunich> Gecko is bipolar, micro-stepping, chopper
[20:20:18] <jmkasunich> about as good as it gets
[20:20:44] <jmkasunich> others (unipolar, half-step, etc) may be cheaper, but you will have lower top speed
[20:21:02] <jmkasunich> how much cheaper, vs. how much lower speed, I don't know
[20:21:32] <jmkasunich> note that if you're not microstepping, you probably don't need the Pico board
[20:21:35] <chessie4> using the pico universal stepper board
[20:21:48] <chessie4> i think i want to microstep
[20:22:07] <chessie4> wll, let me restate
[20:22:27] <chessie4> i want to do this incrementally
[20:22:43] <chessie4> i am hoping to get drivers and get a basic setup working
[20:23:35] <chessie4> mill motor is 90V DV. i hope to use a DC motor controller in conjunction with 4th axis to control speed
[20:24:33] <chessie4> so to start with, i was hoping to get 3 stepper drivers, manally control the motor on/off & speed and get EMC working
[20:24:36] <chessie4> and figured out.
[20:24:47] <chessie4> then i was hoping to add the rest.
[20:25:33] <chessie4> how much speed does one really need?
[20:25:48] <jmkasunich> what kind of a machine is it? minimill, Bport, router?
[20:25:58] <chessie4> its a mini-mill in size
[20:26:33] <chessie4> http://www.desktopcnc.com/oldterco.htm
[20:26:38] <chessie4> is a picture of one
[20:27:28] <jmkasunich> screw pitch? gear/belt ratio (if any)? steps/rev on the motor? (200 probably)
[20:27:29] <chessie4> the 4440.
[20:27:40] <chessie4> motors are all 1.8 deg step
[20:27:56] <chessie4> screw pitch i need to measure. i think its metric though
[20:28:29] <jmkasunich> just take a wild guess... is it ~5 per inch like a full size mill, or 20 per inch like a sherline?
[20:28:30] <chessie4> the x&y are direct drive, the Z is belt i think.
[20:29:15] <jmkasunich> splitting the difference, assume it's about 10 per inch
[20:29:26] <jmkasunich> that means 74 turns from end to end on the X
[20:29:52] <jmkasunich> 74 * 200 steps/turn = 14800 full steps from one end to the other
[20:30:26] <jmkasunich> EMC can easily to 10000 steps/sec without Jon's board
[20:30:50] <jmkasunich> so _in theory_ you could go end-to-end in 1.48 seconds
[20:31:16] <jmkasunich> 10x microstepping might would raise that to 14.8 seconds
[20:32:24] <jmkasunich> realistically, if you get to 60 ipm (1 inch/sec) you'll probably be very happy - 7.5 seconds from end to end
[20:32:35] <jmkasunich> I have no idea if a cheap drive would do that
[20:32:48] <jmkasunich> Geckos would do it easily with most NEMA34 motors
[20:33:20] <jmkasunich> 1 inch/sec assuming 10 turns/inch and 2000 microsteps/rev is 20,000 steps/sec
[20:33:26] <jmkasunich> EMC can do that on a fast computer
[20:33:35] <jmkasunich> (without the Pico board)
[20:34:30] <jmkasunich> given the size of your mill, if I was you I'd spend the $250 on good drives rather then the Pico board (don't tell Jon Elson I said that)
[20:35:57] <chessie4> hmm. iirc the screw is metric, it was like 16mm od, and it worked out to 4 threads per cm
[20:36:03] <chessie4> i have to check
[20:36:19] <chessie4> but it worked out to like 2.5 mm/turn
[20:36:23] <jmkasunich> 4/cm is approx 10/inch, so the estimates I made are approximately correct
[20:36:35] <chessie4> yes, i think its right
[20:37:32] <jmkasunich> when it's time to do your .ini file you need to calculate the exact numbers so things will be the right size, but for estimating top speed, approx is close enough
[20:37:34] <chessie4> you have confirmed my plan is decent. start out with drivers and then later add the pico board.
[20:37:44] <jmkasunich> that's what I'd do
[20:37:44] <chessie4> so i am after a microstepping board.
[20:37:57] <jmkasunich> rated at least 5A
[20:38:07] <jmkasunich> preferrably a bipolar chopper
[20:38:36] <jmkasunich> supply voltage should be 10-25 times the motor rating with a chopper drive
[20:39:04] <jmkasunich> so figure 18V minimum, 45V maximum
[20:39:06] <chessie4> i have not found a decent description of chopper
[20:40:14] <chessie4> looking at the boards on phils page, all seem to say max of 30V
[20:43:17] <chessie4> do i have any options other than geckos?
[20:43:22] <jmkasunich> dunno
[20:43:28] <jmkasunich> I'm sure there are other choices
[20:43:36] <jmkasunich> but I haven't researched them
[20:43:53] <chessie4> i mean, i know that they are GOOD, but i was hoping to learn on something less expansive
[20:43:53] <jepler> you could always run the steppers under the specified current or voltage, you'll just lose on the maximum step rate that way.
[20:44:30] <chessie4> i guess its not so bad, resale of geckos will always be there
[20:44:59] <chessie4> how would you limit the current and voltage? use a smaller power supply?
[20:45:18] <jepler> chessie4: with the board I'm familiar with, there is an Rset for each stepper that sets the maximum current
[20:45:37] <jmkasunich> most chopper drives have some way to set the current limit... with Geckos you use an external resistor, with Xylotex there's an onboard pot, etc
[20:45:56] <jmkasunich> the voltage is determined by your power supply
[20:46:05] <jepler> (a chopper works by putting voltage across the winding until the voltage at a sense resistor rises, then turns off again, giving a fixed average current drive)
[20:46:40] <narnia> jmkasunich, fyi, i replied to your e-mail concerning the emc fest.
[20:46:54] <chessie4> i was looking at these drivers too-
[20:46:58] <chessie4> http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/index.htm
[20:48:36] <jepler> chessie4: The big power resistors are a bad sign---"L/R drive" is as simple but low-performance as you can get
[20:48:52] <chessie4> ok
[20:49:18] <jmkasunich> f
[20:49:32] <jmkasunich> oops
[20:50:02] <chessie4> out of curiousity, what are you folks running and on what kind of machines?
[20:51:16] <jepler> this is my own CNC machine: http://axis.unpy.net/index.cgi/etchcnc when I need to do real work, I use my friend's maxnc, on that timeguy.com site I mentioned earlier.
[20:52:23] <chessie4> that is priceless. cnc'd a etchasketch!
[20:52:40] <jepler> thansk
[20:54:47] <chessie4> i am curiuos about his toolholders.
[20:54:50] <lg_> Anyone know if the axis display is included on the bdi-4.20 iso? It looks great
[20:55:21] <jepler> lg_: I think that the 1.0b2 version of axis is included.
[20:55:52] <jepler> lg_: I think that typing "dpkg -l axis" will show you if you have it.
[20:55:54] <paul_c> axis is included
[20:56:10] <lg_> Thanks... I'm just watching bdi download now... hope it will load on my laptop 300mhz
[20:57:16] <lg_> Is the bdi 4.20 version 1 emc or the version 2 development stuff?
[20:57:36] <paul_c> Both.
[20:57:55] <paul_c> libnml & the emc2 tree
[20:58:15] <paul_c> but much of the emc code is from the original tree
[21:00:09] <lg_> It has been a while since I built emc... lookingforward to version 2... I have a second laptop running rh8 and emc
[21:02:53] <paul_c> which RT patch ?
[21:04:26] <lg_> good question... i'll boot it and check
[21:04:34] <chessie4> i am looking at the break-out boards from pmdx too-
[21:04:36] <chessie4> http://www.pmdx.com/
[21:05:28] <chessie4> or something like them.
[21:06:08] <chessie4> what are the choices for getting things like limit swtiches and coolant and other relays?
[21:07:13] <paul_c> There are a number of industrial IO cards with isolated inputs & outputs.
[21:08:17] <lg_> 2.4.22 rtai kernel... running a shoptask mill/lathe/drill
[21:10:09] <chessie4> ok. you guys have been a great help. i am going to finish the BDI d/l and do some playing.
[21:10:28] <chessie4> i found the chat logs, so i will do some reading up there.
[21:10:30] <lg_> it has a motion group stpper driver that uses the quadrature drive mode
[21:10:37] <jmkasunich> lg_: how is the shoptask conversion working for you?
[21:10:44] <jmkasunich> (I have one)
[21:10:55] <paul_c> Ah... jmk stirs
[21:11:08] <jmkasunich> was off on a /msg
[21:11:43] <lg_> shoptask is ok... I bought the ball screwaddition a few years back and it has worse backlash than the original acme screws,
[21:12:00] <jmkasunich> yuck
[21:12:15] <jmkasunich> I was planning on sticking with the acme for a while, then doing my own ballscrew conversion
[21:12:35] <lg_> plus I found the curring forces can back drive the axis.... very noticable when cutting large circles... one axis goes into current reduction and that makes for pretty ugly circles...
[21:12:35] <jmkasunich> I have no desire to send any more money to Shoptask
[21:13:43] <lg_> understand... I bought the machine for a test bench for playing with emc.... works ok for that... would like to change out the driver to something
[21:14:03] <jmkasunich> I'm planning to use Geckos
[21:14:14] <lg_> like geckos.... The current drive doest do justice to the motors (running 3 amp steppers at 2a/phase)
[21:15:27] <lg_> My next project is to try and get it routing (milling) circuit boards.... need to come up with a high speed spindle.
[21:16:15] <chessie4> btw: is names worth going to?
[21:16:30] <lg_> I bought a trim router and adapters so I can run 1/8 bits.... havent figured out how to best mount it yet.
[21:16:31] <paul_c> Doubt it this year.
[21:16:49] <jmkasunich> depends on how far away you are, and if you like looking at models
[21:17:07] <jmkasunich> the CNC parts of it were cut way down last year, the same this year
[21:17:29] <jmkasunich> but the model engines, etc, are interesting if you like that kind of thing, and there are many tooling, etc, dealers there
[21:19:39] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Have you got a spare minute either private or on board irc ?
[21:27:09] <jmkasunich> dang it.... I hate it when only one person bids on my auctions...
[21:30:58] <jepler> jmkasunich: what are you selling?
[21:31:45] <jmkasunich> dumpster pickings that I can't use: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3879601269
[21:34:29] <jepler> ah, nothing I can imagine needing
[21:34:56] <paul_c> that reminds me...
[21:35:22] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Can you get hold of any specs on a Fanuc encoder ?
[21:35:30] <jmkasunich> I sold identical things a coupld weeks ago for $32 each
[21:35:37] <paul_c> or is that not part of the AB group ?
[21:35:47] <jmkasunich> not that I'm aware of
[21:37:00] <paul_c> Oh poo... Trying to find out if an A860-0300-T001 is TTL quadrature output...
[21:37:20] <jmkasunich> sorry, wish I could help
[21:43:04] <jmkasunich> looks like fanuc is owned by general electric? www.gefanuc.com
[21:43:30] <paul_c> that not part of your lot ?
[21:44:13] <jmkasunich> nope.... rockwell automation owns AB, reliance electric, electro-craft, and some others, but no connection to general electric
[21:45:40] <jmkasunich> there's also www.fanucamerica.com - you tried that site?
[21:48:12] <paul_c> fsckit - Parts page requires a login.
[21:48:28] <jmkasunich> nobody@nowhere.com
[21:48:43] <jmkasunich> I hate those sites
[21:48:57] <jmkasunich> and routinely lie to them about who I am
[21:49:30] <paul_c> I think it requires pre-approved registration.
[22:02:23] <jmkasunich> dammit... another afternoon spent yacking on IRC instead of cleaning out the basement
[22:03:22] <paul_c> jmkasunich: take a look at the codeFest wiki page - Found a cheaper place to stay than Motel6....
[22:03:46] <paul_c> and also added some "must know" info about Motel6 & Red Roof..
[22:04:25] <paul_c> like a freight railway line runs right past the back door of the building....
[22:04:50] <jmkasunich> how'd you find that out? been studying satellite photos?
[22:04:51] <paul_c> and a regular service thoughout the night.
[22:05:05] <paul_c> * paul_c stayed @ RR a couple of years ago.
[22:06:04] <paul_c> http://www.extendedstayamerica.com/minisite/default.asp?hotelID=697 - 2.54 miles from NIST (easy walking distance)
[22:06:47] <jmkasunich> we should cross-link from the Fest wiki page to the normal web page, and vice-versa
[22:08:42] <jmkasunich> hmmm... the extendedstay link timed out
[22:08:48] <paul_c> I put the link there as a reminder for {self}
[22:09:17] <paul_c> Add it to the main codeFest page & it can be removed from wiki.
[22:09:49] <jmkasunich> will do that... but crosslinking is still a good thing
[22:10:29] <paul_c> for a sec /me read that as "crossdressing"
[22:10:36] <jmkasunich> this is really annoying... yet another website that I can view with IE 5.5 and win95, but not on my Linux box
[22:10:44] <jmkasunich> lol
[22:11:16] <paul_c> * paul_c booked online with mozzilla
[22:11:46] <paul_c> we need to get you off RH7.2
[22:12:23] <jmkasunich> best rate that came up here was $95/night
[22:12:34] <jmkasunich> how'd you get $55?
[22:13:30] <jmkasunich> speaking of getting off RH... will BDI-4.xx work on a SMP box (2xPIII-600)?
[22:13:44] <paul_c> yup
[22:13:57] <jmkasunich> actually use both CPUs?
[22:14:15] <paul_c> nope - No SMP support compiled in.
[22:14:24] <jmkasunich> that's kinda what I expected
[22:14:33] <jmkasunich> work, but no faster than a single CPU
[22:14:38] <paul_c> $55/night is the weekly rate.
[22:15:26] <paul_c> 7 nights for just $5 more
[22:15:42] <jmkasunich> I see
[22:15:59] <jmkasunich> good if you're gonna be there to use the rooms
[22:16:55] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich should bite the bullet and upgrade to BDI-4... but what box to use.... decisions, decisions
[22:17:03] <paul_c> * paul_c updates wiki
[22:17:27] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich updates webpage
[22:19:52] <paul_c> BTW messed around with Fusion last weekend.
[22:24:12] <ccjoe>
[22:33:24] <jmkasunich> webpage now has extended stay america, and note about trains, and link to wiki page
[22:33:31] <jmkasunich> (plus a couple more names)
[22:33:45] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich take the dog out to play in the snow
[23:12:15] <lg_> Anyone have a suggestion for ram requirements for bdi 4.20??? live needs 256+, will 4.20 run on 128?
[23:12:54] <paul_c> 128M for install..
[23:14:04] <jmkasunich> 4.20? I thought it was at 4.18?
[23:14:17] <robin_sz> * robin_sz returns from playing with lasers
[23:14:33] <jmkasunich> hey paul, if you keep changing it, I'll never wind up installing it ;-)
[23:14:34] <lg_> Thanks Paul... I got another 64mb off ebay but it hasnt made it across the border yet.
[23:14:39] <paul_c> Now on a 2.6.10 kernel.
[23:14:46] <robin_sz> coo.
[23:14:57] <robin_sz> * robin_sz still has issues with 2.6
[23:15:09] <paul_c> lg_: Mexico, Canada, or Texas ?
[23:15:44] <lg_> The great white north.... well bdi is now going to replace the last ms os in the shack!
[23:16:06] <paul_c> * paul_c realises who lg is...
[23:17:23] <lg_> Nanoose Bay on Vancouver Island.... Nice day here... sunny about 65F... BBQ planned for tonight
[23:18:26] <paul_c> You plan on doing any dev work with 4.20 ?
[23:19:47] <lg_> possibly.... would like to set up for recomiles from cvs if possible.... laptop is somewhat slow, but I use it to
[23:20:12] <lg_> view files in the warm part of the house and then plug it into the mill to place with chips!
[23:20:54] <paul_c> You must read the notes on the wiki page - http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_Install
[23:21:17] <paul_c> It tells you how to set up the build system after installing everything
[23:21:51] <lg_> Thanks Paul, with the deb stuff, I would imagine a few apt-get cmds?
[23:22:22] <paul_c> If you didn't do a package selection @ install time, yes.
[23:22:37] <paul_c> but then all the basic tools are on the CD.
[23:23:21] <paul_c> damit - need to update for 4.20
[23:24:26] <lg_> yah... looks like 2.6.9 packages on the web page
[23:24:35] <paul_c> refresh.
[23:25:01] <lg_> still using gcc 2.95?
[23:25:17] <paul_c> The recommended compiler by the kernel team.
[23:25:55] <lg_> Excellent... its nice not to be fighting extra issues
[23:26:07] <jmkasunich> 4.20 won't compile the "regular" emc2/hal CVS, will it?
[23:26:28] <paul_c> You gotta remember, this install is used on production machines.
[23:27:27] <paul_c> jmkasunich: Probably not - Although the changes wouldn't be too involved...
[23:27:44] <paul_c> Could even use kbuild with 2.4.27 kernels..
[23:31:54] <lg_> opps... install failed trying to read libdl.so.2 ... laptop may have problem reading cdrw... will check on desk box
[23:33:01] <robin_sz> jmkasunich: thanks for wasting my entire evening
[23:34:00] <robin_sz> * robin_sz reads all about WW2 submarines
[23:38:04] <jmkasunich> you're welcome
[23:48:50] <lg_> anybody using eagle pcb software.... free version is great for hobby size boards (3x4")
[23:49:03] <lg_> runs well under linux
[23:49:33] <paul_c> It's on the "must try sometime" list.
[23:49:53] <jmkasunich> dunno about you, but for me that list is pretty long
[23:50:14] <lg_> I recommend doing the tutorial... takes a couple of hours, but things go much smoother after.
[23:50:57] <lg_> check out http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/ for some of my projects
[23:51:01] <paul_c> Been a while since I used any PCB software
[23:51:47] <lg_> for most of my projects now, I draw them up in the schematic module, do a pcb with the board layout and I am hoping to get
[23:51:52] <paul_c> any PC104 stuff ?
[23:51:56] <lg_> my mill to cut pcb's
[23:52:33] <lg_> not yet.... looking for help?
[23:53:55] <paul_c> keep tossing around some ideas from www.openio.org
[23:54:00] <robin_sz> lg_: I've used Eagle recently, seems fine
[23:54:06] <paul_c> gah www.freeio.org
[23:55:05] <robin_sz> lg_: print the layouts out as .ps, straight onto Laserstar paper, UV expose some board, develop and etch.
[23:57:23] <robin_sz> * robin_sz reads the freeio.org hardware specs
[23:57:35] <robin_sz> they seem heavily into isa cards ...
[23:58:09] <robin_sz> and cplds, both seem of limited lifespan.
[23:59:37] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich bookmarks freeio.org
[23:59:47] <jmkasunich> mmmmm.. hardware.. tasty
[23:59:59] <robin_sz> looks a little stale in places