#emc | Logs for 2005-03-10

[00:04:25] <robin_sz> yeah, the volvo
[00:04:37] <robin_sz> we saw that last week :)
[00:06:28] <pfred1> yeah it's a BMW paint on it
[00:06:36] <pfred1> the color code
[00:07:39] <pfred1> I used Dupont Chromabase on that car
[00:09:26] <pfred1> where's Les he's Mr. Spraygun
[00:15:09] <robin_sz> heh,
[00:15:25] <robin_sz> these dyas the only spraygun I have has powder in it :)
[00:15:38] <pfred1> powdercoater?
[00:15:39] <robin_sz> its much easier to spray stuff with 100kv to help you out
[00:15:44] <robin_sz> yeha
[00:15:51] <anonimasu> hm..
[00:15:54] <pfred1> yeah they're nice
[00:15:56] <pfred1> someday
[00:16:08] <robin_sz> home built oven
[00:16:10] <anonimasu> but can you powdercoat a whole car?
[00:16:11] <anonimasu> ;)
[00:16:18] <robin_sz> BMW do
[00:18:30] <anonimasu> yes but bmw has money for huge ovens..
[00:18:30] <robin_sz> yeah
[00:18:30] <anonimasu> :)
[00:18:30] <robin_sz> seriously though,
[00:18:30] <anonimasu> if you want to powdercoat a car you have to strip * dont you?
[00:18:30] <robin_sz> for small shops, painting parts
[00:18:30] <robin_sz> powder is a good choice
[00:18:30] <pfred1> if you want to paint it right you have to strip it anyways
[00:18:30] <pfred1> the only part left on that Volvo was the rear axle
[00:18:30] <pfred1> OK and the glass I didn't pop the glass
[00:18:31] <anonimasu> brb putting the router in place..
[00:18:31] <anonimasu> again
[00:25:08] <anonimasu> done
[00:25:10] <anonimasu> :)
[00:25:22] <pfred1> allright lets check out these bookwarez i just got :)
[00:26:04] <anonimasu> :)
[00:26:15] <pfred1> Gingery 1 The Charcoal Foundry - Build your own metal working shop from scrap.pdf
[00:29:21] <anonimasu> hehe
[00:29:38] <pfred1> want a copy?
[00:29:45] <K`zan> Yes :-)
[00:29:55] <pfred1> OK
[00:30:00] <pfred1> can yo uaccept DCCs?
[00:30:07] <K`zan> Dunno, sometimes...
[00:30:40] <pfred1> well we try DCC if that doesn't work we try something else
[00:30:45] <K`zan> I think I can receive but not send, or maybe it is the other way around. I don't do much of that, as you can tell :).
[00:30:55] <pfred1> can you do rars or should i just try to send the whole file?
[00:31:08] <K`zan> can do rar, np.
[00:31:20] <pfred1> OK i send the rar parts probably more reliable
[00:32:00] <K`zan> Tnx!
[00:32:53] <pfred1> hmmm dcc not looking so good
[00:33:31] <K`zan> crap, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't ,no idea.
[00:33:41] <K`zan> Well, it isn't a biggie, thanks anyway :-).
[00:33:45] <pfred1> well no wait
[00:34:35] <A-L-P-H-A> err. K`zan's stalking me.
[00:34:47] <K`zan> Heh, you wish ;-)
[00:35:20] <A-L-P-H-A> maybe... if you were a sex crazed hot bombshell, that's under >18 & <28. :D
[00:35:31] <A-L-P-H-A> err.
[00:35:33] <A-L-P-H-A> no under.
[00:35:38] <K`zan> I need to get off my arse and get some of these temp sensors working so I can monitor the temp of my lager.
[00:35:50] <K`zan> LOL
[00:35:55] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan. hahaha. get some atmel butterflies.
[00:36:01] <A-L-P-H-A> don't they have built in temp sensors?
[00:36:12] <K`zan> Want to feed it back here and log it.
[00:36:13] <A-L-P-H-A> or are we talking nice stainless steel encased temp modules?
[00:37:38] <A-L-P-H-A> bought these today. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=00570259 (arbor for $29) and http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=08591059 (drill chuck, $165) :D
[00:37:48] <K`zan> Not going to dunk a butterfly down in the secondary fermenter :-).
[00:39:02] <A-L-P-H-A> want a sensor or a thermistors?
[00:39:18] <A-L-P-H-A> K`zan, what temp range?
[00:39:34] <K`zan> Got a pile of I2C sensors around here someplace.
[00:40:04] <A-L-P-H-A> http://ca.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=290800&Site=CA&Cat=31654977 <-- see if that works.
[01:02:36] <paul_c> Morning....
[01:02:43] <pfred1> paul_c hey there
[01:03:19] <paul_c> * paul_c is going to be working well into the early hours...
[01:03:29] <pfred1> paul_c how come?
[01:05:55] <paul_c> gotta small ballsup to fix
[01:10:35] <pfred1> I got a vertical mill
[01:12:20] <paul_c> a biggie ?
[01:12:27] <pfred1> an RF-31
[01:12:34] <pfred1> weighs about 700 pounds
[01:12:39] <paul_c> Ah, a baby one
[01:12:41] <pfred1> benchtop
[01:13:07] <pfred1> it'll drill a 1 inch hole into steel
[01:14:03] <paul_c> Going to CNC it ?
[01:15:27] <paul_c> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=00570259
[01:15:47] <paul_c> wtf.... I didn't say that...
[01:15:56] <pfred1> paul_c nope thought about it maybe someday I want to do a router first
[01:27:02] <paul_c> drat... Need some more belleville washers for a little project - misscalculated the number required..
[01:27:40] <pfred1> paul_c belleville washers?
[01:27:56] <anonimasu_> hmm
[01:27:58] <anonimasu_> *yawns*
[01:28:55] <paul_c> dished springy washers
[01:29:07] <anonimasu_> night everyone
[01:29:22] <paul_c> bye...
[01:29:32] <pfred1> paul_c oh think I have seen those
[01:29:41] <paul_c> MSC do them
[01:30:24] <pfred1> I got a lot of hardware laying around here been sorting some of it lately whenever I take something apart i save all the hardware it adds up
[01:33:54] <paul_c> looking good - rtai-modules is compiling without any errors this time...
[02:04:33] <pfred1> picnet hey there
[02:05:14] <Jymmm> pfred1 thats ghost picnet to you
[02:05:44] <pfred1> oh
[02:11:12] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/drivers/ (ppmc/ppmc_aio.c simio/extsimaio.c): Fix an unresolved symbol.
[02:16:35] <siado> hello all
[02:16:44] <paul_c> You're back.
[02:16:53] <siado> ya
[02:16:53] <siado> stupid mac
[02:17:31] <siado> anyone willing to answer a few elementary EMC questions?
[02:18:40] <nevyn> just ask. if someone knows they'll answer
[02:19:06] <siado> right on
[02:19:12] <siado> well...
[02:19:23] <paul_c> "will it run on a mac"
[02:19:33] <siado> I'm curious about EMC's ability to handle a 5-axis setup
[02:19:41] <siado> heh..no
[02:19:57] <nevyn> umm it should..
[02:20:08] <siado> not even going to try to recompile with real time on here...
[02:20:34] <paul_c> Only a couple of places need tweeking for endian
[02:20:53] <siado> i am learning Pro/E wildfire and have about half the parts i need for a rotary table, rotary head setup
[02:21:03] <paul_c> anyway... 5 Axis - What type of machine had you in mind ?
[02:21:08] <siado> i know i will need to write my own psot
[02:21:11] <siado> er post
[02:21:20] <siado> but traditional xyz
[02:21:32] <siado> horizontal rotary table
[02:21:42] <siado> on a pivoting cradle
[02:22:23] <siado> all servo driven
[02:22:29] <siado> with a pci 8 axis board
[02:22:39] <siado> i forget the vendor
[02:22:48] <paul_c> OK... Conventional XYZ mill with a stacked A & B (or C)
[02:22:58] <siado> yeah...thats it
[02:23:01] <paul_c> using Vital's card
[02:23:06] <siado> thats the one
[02:23:18] <siado> been a while since i looked at the stuff
[02:23:47] <paul_c> Think about it for a mo.... A C axis in a CNC mill is rather a waste of time & metal...
[02:24:20] <siado> right, but to be able to machine a compressor wheel for a turbocharger
[02:24:31] <siado> i need a tilting rotary axis
[02:24:54] <siado> to make deep helical cuts
[02:24:56] <paul_c> For A & B, yes.
[02:26:05] <paul_c> Some good news - EMC will handle XYZ & ABC moves
[02:26:12] <siado> good
[02:26:36] <paul_c> Most of the toolpath "grunt" is in the CAD/CAM package.
[02:26:48] <siado> thats kind of what i figured
[02:26:54] <siado> i am new to cnc
[02:26:57] <paul_c> 5 axis CAM is damned expensive.
[02:26:59] <siado> old hat at linux
[02:27:09] <siado> and have access to wildfire
[02:27:26] <siado> with the Pro/Manufacturing module
[02:27:28] <paul_c> You in South Carolina ?
[02:27:29] <siado> yep
[02:27:32] <siado> charleston
[02:27:37] <paul_c> figured...
[02:28:03] <nevyn> siado: you're using wildfire on linux?
[02:30:15] <siado> damn
[02:30:19] <siado> nevyn: i wish
[02:30:47] <nevyn> isn't that the one that's been ported?
[02:31:07] <siado> man
[02:31:11] <siado> this is really annoying
[02:31:13] <siado> sorry guys
[02:32:22] <paul_c> Back to EMC
[02:32:44] <paul_c> Sure, EMC can handle up to six axis
[02:33:07] <siado> so as long as the CAM generates the toolpaths
[02:33:19] <siado> its just follow the map for EMc, right?
[02:33:21] <paul_c> If you were stacking the rotary axis on the cutting head, things would get fun...
[02:33:30] <siado> ew
[02:33:41] <siado> not only a pain to program i would imagine
[02:33:45] <siado> but a pain to build
[02:34:05] <paul_c> There are a number of machines with knuckle jointed cutting heads...
[02:34:33] <siado> yeah, but realistically for a custom machine
[02:34:48] <siado> i think the rotary on the table would bo easier logistically, no?
[02:35:27] <paul_c> Stacked rotaries on the XYZ table is easiest to do..
[02:35:49] <siado> that's kind of what i though...basing that on no experience whatsoever...
[02:36:18] <paul_c> This a home project ?
[02:36:31] <siado> yup
[02:36:41] <siado> long term goal
[02:36:57] <siado> is to be able to machine prototype compressor wheels for small gas turbine engines
[02:37:03] <siado> and turbine wheels too
[02:37:12] <siado> so, aluminums and inconel
[02:37:27] <paul_c> not wanting to sound rude.... But.... For a first project it is very advanced.
[02:37:35] <siado> tell me about it
[02:37:51] <siado> especially for a first cnc
[02:37:55] <siado> my plan though
[02:38:08] <paul_c> If you're using servos & heavy iron, it will get very expensive.
[02:38:11] <siado> is to be able to lock the cradle for what i guess will be the B axis
[02:38:17] <siado> the cradle
[02:38:37] <siado> and be able to mount a table to it and use it as a 3 axis machine
[02:38:45] <siado> this will be the first attempt
[02:38:50] <siado> jsut to get things going
[02:39:03] <siado> then i will worry about the rotary stuff
[02:39:13] <siado> so its somewhat modular
[02:39:46] <paul_c> That was what I was going to suggest....
[02:39:51] <siado> but there is such a steep learning curve
[02:40:03] <siado> and so little info i can find on EMC
[02:40:11] <paul_c> Are you converting a manual or retrofitting an old CNC mill ?
[02:40:19] <siado> neither
[02:40:25] <siado> ground up on all
[02:40:58] <siado> i was inspired by Swede's work
[02:41:03] <siado> 5bears.com
[02:41:33] <paul_c> and you have access to a half decent workshop ?
[02:41:37] <siado> yah
[02:41:49] <siado> i have an old south bend 16" in my garage
[02:41:59] <siado> with a dumore versa-mil mmilling attachment
[02:42:36] <paul_c> OK, so you know your metals
[02:42:41] <siado> a bit
[02:42:48] <siado> mostly navy taught
[02:44:01] <paul_c> Did you get to Cabin Fever earlier this year ?
[02:44:11] <siado> its nice to see irc isn't dead for stuff like this
[02:44:22] <siado> no...what is that?
[02:45:50] <paul_c> lemme find a link for ya.
[02:45:57] <siado> cool
[02:46:59] <paul_c> http://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/
[02:47:33] <paul_c> and a report on what you missed.. http://www.sherline.com/CabinFev05.htm
[02:48:23] <siado> oh ok
[02:48:30] <siado> i have read about this in HSM
[02:48:35] <siado> i think
[02:50:03] <paul_c> and if you were thinking of going to NAMES this year...
[02:50:40] <paul_c> go to this one instead: http://www.cnc-workshop.com/
[02:51:58] <siado> i wish
[02:52:12] <siado> i teach and will pick up a class right before that
[02:53:00] <paul_c> then there is an EMC codeFest over at the NIST place in MD
[02:53:14] <Jymmm> no location or map
[02:53:20] <siado> i have been away from linux for years now
[02:53:26] <paul_c> but that will be geared towards coding & debugging.
[02:53:58] <siado> but EMC seemed just the sort of thing that interested me in linux in the first place
[02:54:29] <siado> assuming my compile finishes with RTAI on slackware 10.1, any foreseeable problems compiling EMC?
[02:54:32] <paul_c> It's what got me involved too...
[02:54:57] <paul_c> Which kernel/rtai ver/compiler ?
[02:55:04] <siado> 2.4.26
[02:55:22] <siado> and forget on the other two
[02:55:25] <siado> brb
[02:57:07] <siado> rtai 3.1
[02:57:11] <siado> gcc 3.3.4
[02:57:37] <siado> i wsa quite surprised at the ease of setup for xorg
[02:57:41] <siado> over xfree
[02:57:54] <siado> so i am happy with the slack dist
[02:58:50] <pfred1> slack?
[02:59:00] <siado> slackware
[02:59:02] <pfred1> how old skewl!
[02:59:04] <siado> heh
[02:59:09] <paul_c> Some packages you will need installed....
[02:59:09] <pfred1> yes i ran it for a number of years
[02:59:18] <paul_c> Tcl & Tk plus the dev packages
[02:59:23] <siado> its what i started on
[02:59:26] <siado> back in the day
[02:59:30] <pfred1> from slackware 95 to version 7
[02:59:35] <siado> got those
[02:59:39] <paul_c> (optionally) tclx plus tclx-dev
[02:59:45] <siado> got those
[02:59:55] <paul_c> You will also need pciutils-dev
[03:00:00] <siado> ok
[03:00:29] <paul_c> then some instructions to follow to compile the rcslib/emc code.
[03:00:36] <paul_c> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10408120
[03:01:10] <siado> excellent
[03:01:15] <siado> much appreciated
[03:01:29] <siado> i know what you mean pfred
[03:01:34] <paul_c> However... I don't know of anyone compiling with xorg
[03:01:45] <siado> i picked up my first dist in about 94
[03:02:17] <siado> i really don't know that much about the differences in xorg and xfree86
[03:02:35] <paul_c> If it all goes tits up on you, I am available for site visits in May.
[03:03:12] <siado> i'll be lucky if i scrounge cash for the vital card by then...
[03:03:40] <pfred1> what's a vital card?
[03:03:55] <paul_c> www.vsi99.com
[03:04:00] <siado> http://vitalsystem.com/motion/index.htm
[03:05:13] <pfred1> $795.50 well excuse the hell out of me!
[03:05:23] <siado> heh
[03:05:36] <paul_c> $575
[03:05:40] <pfred1> that's more than an entire PC today how dare they?
[03:06:05] <siado> waiting on the IRS
[03:06:07] <paul_c> wanna see the price of the competition ?
[03:06:30] <paul_c> pick a four digit number and add a bit.
[03:06:41] <siado> and often not pci
[03:06:59] <paul_c> You want to see the STG card...
[03:07:03] <siado> i have a hard enough time finding mobos with ISA anymore
[03:07:21] <paul_c> Loads of ISA boxes out there...
[03:07:49] <siado> is there any advantage with pci for EMC_
[03:07:51] <siado> ?
[03:07:58] <paul_c> Look for Industrial computers - They are still in to ISA in a big way.
[03:08:08] <pfred1> why does technology attract so many thieves?
[03:08:20] <paul_c> ask B. Gates
[03:08:27] <pfred1> $800 for a PCB is obscene!
[03:08:44] <siado> i won't even mention what i paid for my powerbook
[03:08:51] <pfred1> actually I htink it was Steve Ballimer
[03:08:52] <paul_c> PCI advantages - Yes.
[03:08:56] <siado> never get drunk in tokyo...
[03:09:05] <paul_c> You can do 32bit writes with one call
[03:09:23] <siado> what does that translate to?
[03:09:33] <siado> faster machine control?
[03:09:33] <paul_c> Faster IO read/writes
[03:09:39] <siado> thats what i figured
[03:09:49] <paul_c> and more time to number crunch
[03:10:09] <siado> so actual machining performance would be improved...
[03:10:15] <siado> high speed machining, etc..
[03:10:18] <paul_c> Not really..
[03:10:22] <pfred1> what gets me is they were doing impressive stuff with 8 bit systems
[03:10:29] <siado> no?
[03:10:47] <siado> like i said, new to all this, so bear with me...
[03:10:57] <pfred1> CNC isn't exactly a new technology
[03:12:24] <paul_c> Even though you can read and write data faster over a PCI bus (compared to ISA), the servo loop is still only running at 1mSec
[03:15:09] <siado> i see
[03:15:30] <siado> now is that a limitation of EMC or the hardware?
[03:15:47] <pfred1> a thousandth of a second is still a small timeslice
[03:15:59] <Jymmm> pfred1 ha!
[03:16:09] <Jymmm> nS baby, nS
[03:16:21] <pfred1> Jymmm you can't precieve quite a few thousandths of a second
[03:16:25] <paul_c> a limit of what can be done with a general perpose operating system...
[03:16:37] <pfred1> probably 30 or so
[03:16:37] <siado> right
[03:16:55] <Jymmm> pfred1: "We don't need no stinking laws of physics!"
[03:17:08] <siado> last time i found this much information to consume, i was single...i hope i can still follow all this
[03:17:09] <pfred1> 5 nanoseconds as far as human experience is concerned simply does not exist
[03:17:27] <paul_c> You could probably get the servo loop down to 500�Sec or even 250�Sec, but...
[03:17:43] <siado> but would you even need that?
[03:17:46] <paul_c> any faster, you need DSP power.
[03:18:06] <paul_c> 'pends how fast you want to cut.
[03:18:09] <A-L-P-H-A> huh? did I part the chan?
[03:19:00] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A you just joined.
[03:19:45] <pfred1> paul_c the material determines how fast it can be cut
[03:19:58] <paul_c> Say you want to machine at 30 metres/min
[03:20:06] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, but how did I leave?
[03:20:18] <paul_c> In 1mSec, you can travel 0.5mm
[03:20:20] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: On the end of my boot!
[03:20:33] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: and I want that boot back too!
[03:20:54] <A-L-P-H-A> hey, I didn't ask about your fetish...
[03:21:03] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: last night you did.
[03:21:17] <Jymmm> Guys, I was kidding on the nS stuff
[03:22:34] <Jymmm> It's that Bart Simpson mentality.... "I want it NOW NOW NOW"
[03:24:09] <paul_c> siado: Cutting speed is all about how close you want to be to the ideal line.
[03:24:20] <siado> right
[03:24:32] <pfred1> it's all about how fast you can expell the chips
[03:24:44] <siado> for most stuff i plan to cut, i should run into no limits
[03:24:54] <paul_c> and when it comes to servo loop times...
[03:25:04] <siado> i don't really see any super high speeds with inconel
[03:25:19] <Jymmm> speed is inversely proportional to accuracy
[03:25:21] <siado> ah
[03:25:41] <pfred1> well slow feed rates aren't good
[03:25:44] <siado> nevyn: in response to your last question, no i wish i were using wildfire on linux
[03:25:59] <siado> right, because of work hardening
[03:26:13] <paul_c> Many CAM programs will spit out thousands of very short straight line moves
[03:26:13] <siado> but, not so high as say Al
[03:26:51] <paul_c> if these are shorter than one trajectory loop, things are going to get messy...
[03:27:06] <siado> oh, i see what you mean
[03:27:09] <Jymmm> inconel in a turbocharger?!
[03:27:19] <siado> no, in a gas turbine
[03:27:22] <siado> :)
[03:27:36] <Jymmm> eeeesh
[03:27:44] <paul_c> inconel is very tough to machine.
[03:27:49] <siado> using the turbocharger compressor as the turbine compressor
[03:27:54] <Jymmm> I have some here
[03:27:55] <siado> believe me, i know
[03:27:55] <paul_c> High nickel content
[03:28:01] <siado> 718 is the worst
[03:28:07] <siado> except for x-750
[03:28:09] <paul_c> carbide tooling
[03:28:14] <Jymmm> ok NiChrome 60
[03:28:19] <siado> which i can't even get
[03:28:34] <siado> or would need
[03:30:12] <siado> oh wow...i can buy x-750
[03:30:25] <siado> i thought we only had that at work
[03:30:43] <Jymmm> http://www.rmat.com/
[03:31:12] <Jymmm> Click on available shapes and sizes
[03:31:23] <Jymmm> http://www.rmat.com/shapes.htm
[03:32:01] <siado> i don't even want to know what that cost
[03:32:16] <Jymmm> siado: how much you want?
[03:32:22] <Jymmm> in lbs?
[03:32:27] <siado> oh, not that much
[03:32:32] <Jymmm> form?
[03:32:40] <siado> flat probably
[03:32:48] <siado> .5 in thick
[03:33:06] <siado> 3 in dia if round
[03:33:08] <siado> or 3x3
[03:33:18] <paul_c> Jymmm: Your yard back on to their dumpster by any chance ?
[03:33:38] <Jymmm> paul_c: Actually, it probably does now that I think about it.
[03:33:49] <Jymmm> But I have a contact at a mill too.
[03:33:51] <siado> i think i just made a new friend
[03:34:00] <paul_c> ditto
[03:35:03] <paul_c> what is "Vascojet 1000" ?
[03:35:18] <Jymmm> I have a few other sources for exotic metals across the country too
[03:35:48] <Jymmm> typically 250 minimum
[03:35:52] <Jymmm> typically 250 pound minimum
[03:35:56] <siado> whoa
[03:36:07] <Jymmm> wait 25 lbs minimum
[03:36:12] <siado> h
[03:36:16] <siado> oh
[03:36:16] <Jymmm> sorry about that
[03:36:21] <siado> that is a little more reasonable
[03:36:52] <siado> i don't know if my lathe would even part 3" round stock that hard
[03:38:27] <Jymmm> siado: ok, Now what would you like preferably?
[03:38:44] <siado> 3" round
[03:38:51] <siado> 718
[03:38:59] <Jymmm> 718
[03:39:08] <siado> thats the common material guys are using
[03:39:21] <Jymmm> siado: but that's not what I asked =)
[03:39:29] <siado> oh, i c
[03:39:41] <siado> honestly, i don't know
[03:39:44] <Jymmm> you want somethng harder?
[03:39:48] <siado> i would have to research it a bit
[03:39:57] <siado> i think 718 might even be overkill
[03:40:14] <siado> i'm curious why no one has payed with hastelly more
[03:40:15] <Jymmm> softer?
[03:40:19] <siado> er hastelloy
[03:40:30] <Jymmm> siado: Company out of business
[03:40:38] <siado> really?
[03:40:39] <Jymmm> was just a tradename
[03:40:48] <Jymmm> just like inconel
[03:41:01] <Jymmm> generic is NiChrome =)
[03:41:05] <siado> oh
[03:41:09] <siado> that makes sense
[03:41:51] <Jymmm> Technically they are a bit different from each other. but primarily the same thing
[03:42:10] <siado> i wouldn't even begin to know about CNC milling that stuff
[03:42:22] <siado> i can ge a decent feel for it by hand...
[03:42:25] <Jymmm> BrightRay C is any tradename for NiChrome 60 as example
[03:42:30] <Jymmm> a/any/another/
[03:43:11] <Jymmm> siado: Here.... Enjoy! VERY good technical resource for exotics... http://www.specialmetals.com/products/
[03:43:18] <siado> i'm there
[03:43:26] <siado> just googled it
[03:43:38] <Jymmm> siado: Navigation is poor, but content is good.
[03:43:50] <siado> fair enough
[03:43:55] <Jymmm> http://www.specialmetals.com/productforms.htm
[03:44:17] <siado> i guess once i ge a better feel for the metals i want to work with, i will have a better frame of reference for machine design
[03:44:38] <Jymmm> siado: would you buy 25 lbs worth?
[03:44:54] <siado> i probably would at some point, yes
[03:45:03] <Jymmm> in a single order
[03:45:05] <Jymmm> ?
[03:45:09] <siado> i mean...who knows how many discs i would botch trying
[03:45:27] <siado> doesnt seem like 25 lbs would be much of these metals
[03:45:40] <Jymmm> siado: Ok, then call them up tomorrow. The metalurgist there is a REALLY nice guy, and VERY knowledgable.
[03:45:55] <Jymmm> Damn smart too.
[03:46:14] <siado> well, don't hold me to it
[03:46:26] <Jymmm> Wrote me out a formula to do some calculations for me
[03:46:26] <siado> but i would be very curious what that would run
[03:47:00] <Jymmm> They are pretty easy ppl to deal with.
[03:47:34] <Jymmm> they primarlily do wire
[03:47:54] <siado> seems like 25 lbs of 3" round 718 at .296 lb/in^3 would be about 3" long, no?
[03:48:16] <Jymmm> I don't know I gave you the tech ref, you figure it out =)
[03:48:24] <siado> heh...i did
[03:48:56] <siado> so now...how astonished will i be at how much money i have wasted playing around withthat stuff
[03:49:42] <siado> i'm glas i wasn't paying for it
[03:49:42] <siado> glad
[03:49:42] <Jymmm> playing around with what? the Inconel?
[03:49:47] <siado> yes
[03:49:49] <siado> x-750 though
[03:49:54] <siado> reactor plant parts
[03:50:25] <Jymmm> Well, if you give up, send me one of the hockey pucks. I'll get it all nice and polished up
[03:50:31] <siado> heheh
[03:50:42] <Jymmm> (for real)
[03:52:36] <paul_c> buggerit - Nearly 4AM.
[03:52:44] <siado> wow
[03:52:55] <pfred1> wholly!
[03:53:11] <pfred1> paul_c what you been doing?
[03:53:28] <paul_c> I'm outa here - Good[morning|night] all.
[03:53:33] <pfred1> nite
[03:53:35] <Jymmm> G;night paul_c
[03:53:44] <paul_c> will upload thelatest BDI build tomorrow.
[03:53:46] <siado> night paul_c
[03:53:53] <siado> thanks again for the very useful info
[03:54:29] <siado> well, i'm out too guys
[03:54:34] <siado> thanks for all your input
[03:54:37] <Jymmm> G'Night siado
[03:54:46] <siado> sound like i need to hang out in here more
[03:55:34] <Jymmm> hope he doens't has that on my exptic metal knowlege, casue he just learned all I know =)
[03:57:02] <pfred1> I don't get any more exotic than cold rolled myself
[03:57:33] <Jymmm> I have some 40ga NiChrome here, tought shit.
[03:57:42] <Jymmm> wire
[03:58:29] <Jymmm> could use it as strong trip wire too, I can even toss it in the sewing machine.
[03:58:43] <Jymmm> ok, bbl DVD and better half await!
[04:19:51] <pfred1> joe2000chevy hey there
[04:26:33] <joe2000chevy> hi
[04:26:53] <pfred1> joe2000chevy what you been up to?
[04:26:59] <joe2000chevy> work
[04:30:27] <joe2000chevy> not much happinging in here now?
[04:32:30] <pfred1> nope was pretty busy earlier some new faces showed up
[04:33:13] <pfred1> the big topics seemed to be exotic materials and system timings
[04:34:35] <joe2000chevy> o ok
[04:35:16] <pfred1> I been having more fun on another IRC network in a metal casting channel
[04:35:42] <pfred1> I'm into CNC but I'm into machining and tooling overall CNC just a part of it
[04:36:08] <joe2000chevy> kewl, sometime i would like to do lost foam with alumn'
[04:36:21] <pfred1> yeah it looks like a promising technique
[04:36:36] <joe2000chevy> easy also
[04:36:41] <pfred1> one guy in the chan is doing a lost wax casting now
[04:36:42] <pfred1> well
[04:36:50] <pfred1> nothing with casting is easy
[04:36:55] <joe2000chevy> lol
[04:37:17] <pfred1> one guy showd pics of his pour
[04:37:28] <pfred1> his sand was too wet and he poured metal too hot
[04:37:40] <pfred1> it was like a frozen explosion what he ended up with
[04:37:56] <pfred1> so nothing's easy is it?
[04:38:29] <joe2000chevy> lol
[04:39:38] <pfred1> I think them guys are onto something though with their waste oil burners
[04:39:59] <pfred1> they go around to fast food places and pick up waste cooking oil
[04:40:01] <joe2000chevy> ?
[04:40:19] <pfred1> they make these custom burners to burn waste oil for their furnaces
[04:40:37] <joe2000chevy> smoke?
[04:40:46] <pfred1> smoke?
[04:40:53] <pfred1> no they have blowers so it burns clean
[04:40:55] <joe2000chevy> burning waste oil
[04:41:07] <joe2000chevy> ok
[04:41:09] <pfred1> nope you oxidize something completely there is no smoke
[04:41:30] <pfred1> one guy is melting steel with his rig
[04:43:05] <pfred1> <Lou> i've had my kaowool melt.
[04:43:26] <joe2000chevy> whats the cheapest meathod?
[04:43:37] <pfred1> of casting?
[04:43:43] <joe2000chevy> some one used just alumn cans only
[04:43:44] <joe2000chevy> yea of casting
[04:43:53] <pfred1> probably charcoal
[04:44:14] <pfred1> it's how I'm going to start out
[04:44:18] <pfred1> seems safest
[04:44:22] <joe2000chevy> got any links?
[04:44:40] <pfred1> http://www.abymc.com/
[04:45:00] <pfred1> that's the site put up by the guys in the other IRC channel
[04:45:09] <joe2000chevy> ah ok
[04:46:27] <pfred1> cnc_wright hey there
[04:46:35] <cnc_wright> Howdy
[04:47:34] <cnc_wright> I am evidently a slow learner...I'm on my 5th or 6th install of BDI...
[04:47:41] <pfred1> heh
[04:48:00] <pfred1> it's all good as you're learning something each time
[04:48:21] <cnc_wright> For some reason I feel compelled to use the package manager to try to update various packages.
[04:48:33] <pfred1> what's wrong with that?
[04:48:42] <cnc_wright> It seems to always break something.
[04:48:58] <cnc_wright> Last time I tried just updating KDE stuff.
[04:49:25] <cnc_wright> Everything seemed to go well. Machine booted fine. Everything worked but the keyboard
[04:49:52] <pfred1> doh?
[04:49:57] <cnc_wright> The keyboard would work fine on the console but not it X
[04:50:36] <pfred1> you know how to change consoles?
[04:51:19] <cnc_wright> Well since my keyboard didn't work all I could do was exit kde and there is a menu to get to the console
[04:51:33] <cnc_wright> I can the ctrl-alt f? to the other ttys
[04:53:18] <pfred1> yeah sometimes you have to drop back into the console to fix stuff
[04:54:04] <cnc_wright> Yeah, trouble is I haven't figured out what to fix yet...So I nuke it from orbit...its the only way to be sure.
[04:55:04] <pfred1> yeah if you got no config into a system it's a simple fix
[04:55:56] <cnc_wright> I looked at XF86Config-4 to try to fix my keyboard issue.
[04:56:09] <pfred1> well sleepy time here for me nite guys
[04:56:19] <pfred1> yeah you research it you'll figure it out
[04:56:25] <cnc_wright> It had PC105 for some reason. I changed that to PC104 but it didn't fix the problem.
[04:56:30] <pfred1> that's the thing with Linux everything is fixable
[09:01:41] <K`zan> Night folks!
[11:06:58] <nevyn_> nevyn_ is now known as nevyn
[11:39:22] <nevyn> evening paul
[11:43:13] <paul_c> Morning (just)
[11:45:03] <A-L-P-H-A> morning everyone
[11:45:37] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm, an aussie, canuck, and a brit.
[11:54:20] <robin_sz> meep
[11:54:35] <robin_sz> anyone fancy a Rabbit 2000 programming lead??
[11:55:13] <paul_c> Not a lot of use here is it.... Rabbit don't do a Linux dev kit.
[11:55:46] <robin_sz> oh is this a linux-only group?
[11:57:52] <robin_sz> I doubt even jon elson develops his stuff on linux
[11:59:24] <A-L-P-H-A> who's Jon Elson?
[11:59:41] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, so you gonna make a g200x clone with just on FPGA?
[11:59:43] <A-L-P-H-A> on=one
[11:59:52] <paul_c> paul_c has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Regular Developer's meetings every Sunday between 14:00 & 18:00 GMT.... Support 24Hrs the rest of the week.
[12:00:30] <A-L-P-H-A> support is only good for 24 hrs in a week?
[12:00:57] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm...
[12:00:59] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm....
[12:01:52] <paul_c> paul_c has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Regular Developer's meetings every Sunday between 14:00 & 18:00 GMT.... General discussion and help the rest of the week.
[12:02:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm about to venture into making a ~20K rpm spindle. With a nice albretch chuck. But my spindle design is primitive, and should work. two seal bearings. light load (using 1mm endmill, maybe 1mm deep).
[12:03:02] <A-L-P-H-A> wonder how well a dremel clone will hold up...
[12:03:03] <paul_c> You just drilling with it ?
[12:03:06] <A-L-P-H-A> no, milling.
[12:03:11] <A-L-P-H-A> milling Ti.
[12:03:20] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: nah, I'll just buy the G200X, its cheap enough
[12:03:29] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, you never told me the cost.
[12:03:30] <paul_c> please don't use a drill chuck to hold te milling cutters...
[12:03:41] <A-L-P-H-A> paul_c, these are 3mm dia.
[12:03:42] <A-L-P-H-A> sec.
[12:03:46] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: $140
[12:03:52] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.albrechtchucks.com/chuck_template.cfm?&product=yes&subheader=category_classic_keyless_drill_chucks&chuck_category_id=5#prices_18 the C30-J1 http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=08591059 and this http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=00570259 making that the spindle, put a pully on it, and done! :D well... make a bearing block. and then done!
[12:04:03] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, oh wow. 'ight, that's cheap enough for me.
[12:04:37] <robin_sz> I forget whether thats with a rabbit .. but they are 30$ .. 40 with ethernet
[12:04:58] <robin_sz> ethernet is probably the way to go for emc use
[12:05:16] <A-L-P-H-A> ethernet or usb... either are staying for a while.
[12:05:29] <robin_sz> the Mach3 variant is just going to be perfect for emc too
[12:06:20] <A-L-P-H-A> paul_c, I should be fine with that. Even if I have to take two passes (1/2 mm each round).
[12:07:29] <A-L-P-H-A> I would never use it for any endmill > 1/8"
[12:09:24] <paul_c> at 20,000RPM....
[12:10:20] <robin_sz> basically, it implements the canonical maching fuctions, leaving the task and interpreter and the display for the PC to handle
[12:10:27] <A-L-P-H-A> no. I have my mill to do that. This is for more like 1mm dia endmills. That's pretty much the largest thing I'll use. And the RPM I'm going to go at is 11.5K rpm.
[12:10:44] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, big pulse generator.
[12:11:16] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: dont forget, it has analogue IO and encoder inputs too .. you could do servos ...
[12:11:26] <robin_sz> put the PID loop in the rabbit ...
[12:11:48] <A-L-P-H-A> paul_c, how does sherline hold tiny endmills?
[12:12:03] <paul_c> collets
[12:12:23] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: hey, I have the perfect tool for 1mm endmills ... 40K rpm
[12:12:32] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz?
[12:12:34] <A-L-P-H-A> which is?
[12:12:45] <robin_sz> air-turbine have a sale on!
[12:12:57] <A-L-P-H-A> cost?
[12:13:00] <A-L-P-H-A> < $300?
[12:13:44] <robin_sz> close
[12:13:50] <robin_sz> maybe even do that
[12:13:52] <robin_sz> http://www.itc-ltd.co.uk/air.htm
[12:15:38] <robin_sz> im failry sure their flyer had one at 199 GBP
[12:15:54] <A-L-P-H-A> $550CDN.
[12:16:25] <A-L-P-H-A> hell... I may just buy a die grinder, and rip it apart to mount it.
[12:16:49] <A-L-P-H-A> oh hey....
[12:16:52] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.airturbinetools.com/201JS.htm
[12:17:08] <robin_sz> they do the 206XSV at 199 GBP
[12:17:28] <A-L-P-H-A> 206xsv isn't listed
[12:18:30] <robin_sz> http://www.airturbinetools.com/206XSV.htm
[12:18:34] <robin_sz> 300$
[12:18:51] <robin_sz> well, 347
[12:19:31] <A-L-P-H-A> well. the endmills (the consumables) that I can find are at 3mm dia. This is going for 1/4".
[12:20:09] <robin_sz> even I could make a 6 to 3mm collet
[12:20:16] <robin_sz> probably :)
[12:20:25] <robin_sz> whatever, its an option
[12:20:33] <robin_sz> and 50K rpm really would rock
[12:20:47] <A-L-P-H-A> well. I've already ordered the stuff. So if it fails, I'll get one of these.
[12:20:53] <robin_sz> 'k
[12:21:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I just need a 3/8" ream... I think I already have one... need to check.
[12:22:08] <robin_sz> anyway, the G200X looks awesome so far, and with it running the emc interp too, it really is going to rock.
[12:22:20] <robin_sz> and the ethernet options ...
[12:22:22] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, if you already have one... why do you need another?
[12:22:51] <robin_sz> that leads to some VERY interesting possibliities for more than one linked in real-time
[12:23:07] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: I have the previous version, I have two of the new version on order
[12:23:21] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: if it works, I'll need LOTS, to fit to machines
[12:23:42] <robin_sz> hopefully
[12:24:22] <robin_sz> the networking of them as a distributed automation system could be fun
[12:24:35] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, just thinking about what you said about the 1/4 to 3mm. That's not very much wall space at all.
[12:24:48] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, what happens if one faults?
[12:25:03] <A-L-P-H-A> wouldn't you be kinda screwed.
[12:25:15] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: well, its realtime .. you just bring the whole line to a stop, nicely
[12:25:29] <robin_sz> you'll know if it faults
[12:26:01] <robin_sz> because it wont ACK in the specified timeframe
[12:26:41] <robin_sz> as for wall thickens .. thats loads .. its 1.5mm ... easy
[12:27:31] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[12:29:02] <robin_sz> I bet you can buy 6 to 3mm sleeves
[12:29:08] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... 3mm drill, taper one end of the journal, slide into a dremel like thing.
[12:29:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm just worried about wobble.
[12:29:34] <robin_sz> http://www.airturbinetools.com/img/OPTIONALCOLLETS.gif
[12:29:39] <robin_sz> every collet you need
[12:30:06] <robin_sz> 6mm supplied with tool .. many others avialable
[12:30:08] <A-L-P-H-A> well... I bite the bullet already... so nothing much I can do about it.
[12:30:15] <robin_sz> heh :)
[12:30:39] <A-L-P-H-A> that's not a bad solution. Just that my compressor sucks.
[12:30:54] <robin_sz> ahh, yes .. you need lots of good air for these
[12:31:04] <robin_sz> I have WAY too much air
[12:31:09] <nevyn> well.. night all
[12:31:21] <A-L-P-H-A> I think I can supply 90psi continuous.
[12:31:23] <robin_sz> night? its not even lunch time yet"
[12:31:27] <robin_sz> night nevyn
[12:31:29] <nevyn> hrm
[12:31:31] <A-L-P-H-A> but that's really pushing the compressors limit.
[12:31:35] <A-L-P-H-A> later nevyn
[12:31:35] <nevyn> maybe i'll stay up for a bit.
[12:31:43] <nevyn> caffine.
[12:31:57] <A-L-P-H-A> my neightbour has a 5hp tank. I could fit inside the tank if I crouched down.
[12:32:03] <A-L-P-H-A> 5hp compressor.
[12:32:03] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hands nevyn a pro-plus-pill sandwich
[12:32:12] <A-L-P-H-A> give him REDBULL!
[12:32:13] <robin_sz> heh
[12:32:17] <A-L-P-H-A> the non carbonated kind
[12:32:21] <A-L-P-H-A> in the glass bottles.
[12:32:28] <robin_sz> I have a 40CFM screw compressor
[12:32:32] <robin_sz> WAY too big
[12:32:57] <robin_sz> and a tank that has to be over 2m tall, 500mm dia
[12:33:10] <robin_sz> the plan is ...
[12:33:17] <robin_sz> two switches
[12:33:26] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate adobe acrobat reader... always stalls my computer when opening and closing itself.
[12:33:33] <robin_sz> one at 120 PSI, the other at 100
[12:33:58] <robin_sz> if the first trips , the little 2000 watt compressor fires up
[12:34:19] <robin_sz> if that fails to keep it filled the big one fires up
[12:34:44] <A-L-P-H-A> and how often do they trip?
[12:34:59] <robin_sz> well, right now .. its a switch on the wall,
[12:35:05] <robin_sz> the PLAN is for trips
[12:35:20] <robin_sz> the big compressor is over the top ..
[12:35:47] <robin_sz> its ... 1.5m tall, 1m sq box,
[12:36:12] <robin_sz> big heat exchanger on the side ... keeps the toilet block nice and warm though :)
[12:36:14] <A-L-P-H-A> I wouldn't mind a small waterjet. :D
[12:36:29] <robin_sz> do they do small waterjet?
[12:36:44] <A-L-P-H-A> small as in 3ft x 4ft. yeah
[12:36:54] <robin_sz> but pump-wise?
[12:37:06] <A-L-P-H-A> aren't they like 50K psi anyways?
[12:37:13] <A-L-P-H-A> I forget the actual number.
[12:37:16] <robin_sz> yeah
[12:37:17] <A-L-P-H-A> but that sounds about right to me.
[12:37:26] <robin_sz> all the ones ive sene have been like 30hp
[12:37:30] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[12:37:54] <robin_sz> i think they use something called an "intensifier"
[12:38:14] <robin_sz> which is two pistons in a tube as far as i know :)
[12:38:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I need an alternative to acrobat reader
[12:38:27] <A-L-P-H-A> something lightning fast.
[12:38:40] <robin_sz> whats wrong with gv?
[12:38:48] <A-L-P-H-A> ghostviewer?
[12:38:52] <A-L-P-H-A> ghost reader?
[12:38:55] <robin_sz> yeah
[12:38:56] <A-L-P-H-A> or whatever it is??
[12:39:10] <A-L-P-H-A> I installed it a few weeks ago, it had poor integration on a windows box.
[12:39:26] <robin_sz> well, use a linux box then :)
[12:39:43] <A-L-P-H-A> all in good time
[12:42:27] <robin_sz> I find acrobat on 'doze OK, you just need lots of processor
[12:43:02] <robin_sz> it does do some things better than gv
[12:43:15] <A-L-P-H-A> oh so they do have collets.
[12:43:31] <robin_sz> yes
[12:43:48] <robin_sz> 25$ roughly
[12:43:54] <nevyn> acrobat needs a lot of cpu everywhere.
[12:44:05] <robin_sz> yeah
[12:44:18] <robin_sz> but it does some things great .. like its 'on demand' download
[12:44:26] <A-L-P-H-A> err, I was talking sherline ahs collets.
[12:44:36] <A-L-P-H-A> I knew the other place did, the air spindle.
[12:44:36] <robin_sz> it has a mode where you d/l a pdf
[12:44:43] <robin_sz> shows you the index
[12:44:57] <robin_sz> you click on a page and only then does it retreive it
[12:45:06] <A-L-P-H-A> openning and closing acrobat inside FF is annoying at hell!
[12:45:12] <robin_sz> can be handy in a multi-hundred page PDF
[12:45:20] <nevyn> hrm so buildyouridea.com has an automated collet assembly I havn't seen an actual toolchanger arm tho.
[12:45:27] <robin_sz> yeah, I hate embedded viewing
[12:46:31] <nevyn> actually. you could get away with a holder on the bench in an appropriate position relative to the workpiece.
[12:46:40] <nevyn> s/bench/worktable.
[12:47:24] <A-L-P-H-A> http://buildyouridea.com/cnc/pcb_drill/pcb_drill.html
[12:48:30] <A-L-P-H-A> http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/10/news/international/ikea.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes OMG... Swedes are idiots now too.
[12:49:37] <robin_sz> heh
[12:49:50] <robin_sz> just WHAT does that guy think that fan blade will achieve?
[12:51:22] <A-L-P-H-A> "cooling" in an open air system?
[12:51:24] <A-L-P-H-A> hehe
[12:52:29] <robin_sz> but, it is a good solution
[12:54:27] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll phutz around with a collet idea like paul_c suggests.
[12:56:33] <nevyn> http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc/atc/atc.html is kinda cool
[12:57:13] <nevyn> a guy in our model engineering club just built a little mill about sherline size but 20 times as heavy
[12:57:28] <nevyn> he made a jig for makeing r30? collets
[12:58:57] <A-L-P-H-A> the idea is cool.
[12:59:55] <nevyn> he then made and GROUND about 50 of the suckers.
[13:02:27] <A-L-P-H-A> 50 collets?
[13:02:33] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.
[13:03:48] <mateushfa> hello all, thanks for the spot in São Paulo - Brasil
[13:04:05] <nevyn> hi
[13:09:09] <paul_c> If anyone else needs adding to the map,just ask.
[13:09:15] <robin_sz> I've been asked to look at a grinding project
[13:09:32] <robin_sz> could be fun
[13:09:46] <robin_sz> I'm amazed how much power a grinding wheel consumes
[13:11:21] <robin_sz> this thing is a diamond.wheel ... and has 11hp behind it ...
[13:11:22] <paul_c> didn't think you'd need a big motor.... 'spose it depends on the size of the wheel.
[13:11:35] <robin_sz> this is about .. 18" .. 450mm
[13:11:50] <nevyn> what's the face dimention?
[13:12:02] <robin_sz> 20mm across, max
[13:12:40] <robin_sz> by 450mm dia
[13:13:27] <robin_sz> the weird thing is ... its grinding a small bit of metal, say 1.5mm thick, 20x50mm ..
[13:13:36] <nevyn> mmm
[13:13:38] <robin_sz> how can that use up 11hp
[13:14:18] <robin_sz> the guy claims even with 11hp, if you give it too much feed the wheel stalls.
[13:15:18] <paul_c> what DoC ?
[13:15:31] <robin_sz> DoC?
[13:15:33] <robin_sz> oh,
[13:15:36] <robin_sz> depth of cut
[13:15:39] <robin_sz> dunno
[13:15:56] <robin_sz> he said 0.3mm .. but that sounds HUGE for grinding
[13:16:19] <nevyn> that'd cause the stalling.
[13:17:01] <paul_c> 0.005mm is the norm I believe
[13:17:07] <robin_sz> oh NOW i remember .. he grinds blocks of 30 of these things, so a 45mm 'solid' block ...
[13:17:34] <robin_sz> yeah, I guess this is more "bulk material removal" than normal grinding
[13:18:00] <nevyn> mill it with a fly cutter?
[13:18:00] <robin_sz> the plan is to automate it
[13:18:31] <robin_sz> so its 1 blade at a time, instead of 30 at once, but it should run 24x7 unattended
[13:20:35] <robin_sz> the "unattended" bit is the important bit I think ... its WAY too labour intensive right now
[13:21:25] <nevyn> if you're removing that much material surely cutting would be a better move than grinding?
[13:21:39] <robin_sz> its HARD material
[13:21:43] <nevyn> ah.
[13:21:45] <robin_sz> very hard
[13:22:04] <nevyn> then do the back forth bit at a time thing?
[13:22:27] <robin_sz> yeah, I dont think its a problem as he already has the 11hp grinding heads ...
[13:22:41] <robin_sz> i was just suprised even a 0,3mm cut took THAT much
[13:26:06] <robin_sz> it also shows the stupidity of investment programmes in the UK
[13:26:46] <robin_sz> if this guy wanted to invest to employ more people he gould get a grant from the government
[13:27:28] <robin_sz> if he wants to develop equipment to get rid of people and at least remain competetive with china, he cant.
[13:28:52] <nevyn> * nevyn is watching this crazy asian move.
[13:28:55] <robin_sz> and the government cant work out why there is no manufacturing left in this country
[13:29:04] <nevyn> the sword in it is pay per kill
[13:29:13] <nevyn> it's got a coinslot in the bottom of it.
[13:29:18] <robin_sz> heh
[13:29:25] <robin_sz> that HAS to be japanese
[13:30:34] <nevyn> yeah..
[13:31:02] <nevyn> and it like charges up with blue light and stuff.
[13:31:12] <robin_sz> crazy
[13:31:22] <robin_sz> and you wonder why i dumped my tv?
[13:31:26] <nevyn> heh
[13:31:29] <nevyn> it's funny
[13:31:55] <robin_sz> what time is it US side?
[13:32:20] <robin_sz> 9am yet?
[13:32:29] <nevyn> hrm
[13:33:26] <paul_c> GMT -5 to -8
[13:33:36] <nevyn> it's 8:30 in newyork
[13:33:44] <nevyn> * nevyn hugs kworldclock ;)
[13:35:01] <nevyn> hrm
[13:35:09] <nevyn> god I hate modern theme songs.
[13:35:32] <nevyn> enterprise's is shit and so is the one for jeremiah
[13:36:52] <robin_sz> ooh, theyre ploughing my field
[13:37:05] <robin_sz> awesome .. cant wait for this years crop to get going
[13:37:15] <nevyn> they?
[13:37:22] <nevyn> cnc plough.
[13:37:23] <nevyn> ;)
[13:37:31] <robin_sz> I wish
[13:38:11] <nevyn> they used to drag ploughs between two tractors with big spools under the belly of the boiler
[13:38:14] <nevyn> so it'd be possible.
[13:40:12] <robin_sz> hard to see why that went out of fashion
[13:41:52] <nevyn> well the requirement of two tractors is a bit of a downer.
[13:42:14] <robin_sz> and it doesnt work so well on irregular shaped fields
[13:42:29] <nevyn> that too.
[13:46:45] <nevyn> but then you could have cnc ploughing..
[13:46:59] <nevyn> "What are you drawing?"
[13:47:12] <nevyn> "The ploughpath for my field"
[13:48:23] <robin_sz> hey ray
[13:49:57] <rayh> Hi robin.
[13:50:23] <paul_c> * paul_c generates the md5sum for bdi-4.20
[13:51:11] <robin_sz> how are things with C++ then?
[13:51:40] <robin_sz> did it make any sense with Qt?
[13:51:55] <rayh> This old head is slowly trying to get round the qt tutorials
[13:52:07] <robin_sz> yeah, the white paper etc
[13:52:19] <robin_sz> it made my head hurt
[13:52:20] <rayh> Yep.
[13:52:38] <robin_sz> I think its the right way to go though
[13:52:45] <rayh> Oh. I think I'm in deep 4*** then.
[13:52:51] <nevyn> ?
[13:53:07] <rayh> Hi nevyn
[13:53:16] <nevyn> rayh: the real trick is getting your head around OO concepts and style I think
[13:53:25] <robin_sz> heh, no ray, I'm sure once you get going it will be simple
[13:54:10] <rayh> object oriented -- I got far enough to know what OO is.
[13:54:22] <nevyn> right.
[13:55:22] <rayh> Since an object exists at run time, can I think of an instance of OO as a button widget?
[13:55:51] <nevyn> right.
[13:56:25] <nevyn> the key is that an object has both state and behavior
[13:56:26] <rayh> If so, I should be thinking from the objects of the final display back to the code that creates them.
[13:57:26] <robin_sz> like nevyn says, an object is some data and some mehtods (or functions) all bound up together ...
[13:57:34] <robin_sz> thats the key point ...
[13:57:36] <nevyn> a common OO design is the Model View Control type systems
[13:57:40] <nevyn> which isn't terrible.
[13:58:17] <nevyn> so for example let's take a time calculator where you can put in a start time and an end time and it shows elapsed time.
[13:58:32] <nevyn> you might have a time object. which is the model
[13:58:55] <nevyn> you might have a time class. which is the model
[13:59:05] <nevyn> and a timeeditor class which is the control
[13:59:17] <nevyn> and a timedisplay which is the view
[14:00:27] <robin_sz> MVC is just a way of formalising the division of labour in a system
[14:00:32] <nevyn> right.
[14:00:43] <robin_sz> its one thats been shown to be useful and efficient over time
[14:00:59] <nevyn> * nevyn worries that he scared rayh off ;)
[14:01:03] <robin_sz> being able to slap a different view onto an existing system is handy
[14:01:09] <nevyn> right.
[14:01:15] <rayh> I can see that I do that with tickle...
[14:01:20] <robin_sz> I guess thats where it would benfit rayh
[14:01:27] <rayh> but from the other end.
[14:01:38] <robin_sz> but here ray, we keep the same controller and model
[14:01:46] <robin_sz> we just pull them in
[14:01:51] <rayh> I need a button that shows this and does that.
[14:02:06] <nevyn> a time class has NO UI code in it
[14:02:08] <rayh> yep. Exactly.
[14:02:12] <nevyn> it's pure logic in the problemspace
[14:03:06] <robin_sz> rayh: 90% of the battle is making things easy for you. when you set out , it looks hard, but I guarentee its MUCH easier to modify and maintain than a 3000 line tickle script once you get into it
[14:03:35] <rayh> I've no doubt but that is true.
[14:04:09] <rayh> And if fact, I was creeping that way when I started building an EMC tickle lib.
[14:04:21] <rayh> There were toggles...
[14:04:53] <rayh> if (this state) then (that state)
[14:05:35] <robin_sz> just imagine if on each new GUI all you had to do was drag some pre-made components out of a box and slap them on the screen with Qt .. it really could be that easy. the base application and comms could stay as they are ... just layout a new screen from stuff youve made before
[14:05:47] <rayh> and this was returned to the widget that controlled it.
[14:06:44] <robin_sz> right
[14:06:57] <robin_sz> let me give you an example of how it might work
[14:07:09] <robin_sz> you have a Qt Button class
[14:07:58] <robin_sz> so you create an EmcButton class that has some extra code to allow it to talk to the base application in some way .. it *inherits* from Button Ok?
[14:08:28] <robin_sz> then you create say StopButton class .. that inherits from EmcButton
[14:09:18] <robin_sz> all StopButton has extra is the "codes" for MACHINE_STOP and the text "Stop" to put on the button
[14:09:31] <robin_sz> that sthe differences that make it a Stop button
[14:09:59] <robin_sz> now you can just drag it on like a plain old button
[14:10:08] <robin_sz> but it does those extra things
[14:10:42] <robin_sz> it will send a MACHINE_STOP message and it will respond (by turning red or whatever) when it sees the ACK back from EMC itself
[14:10:52] <robin_sz> make sense?
[14:11:28] <rayh> Very much so.
[14:11:48] <rayh> An a very non-code level.
[14:11:57] <robin_sz> of course
[14:12:11] <rayh> But then I'm being impatient. An old firehorse.
[14:12:13] <robin_sz> its more important to get the OO idea than the specific language
[14:12:23] <rayh> Absolutely.
[14:12:44] <robin_sz> you'd never use a EmcButton directly as it doesnt have the specific function codes added ..
[14:13:00] <robin_sz> you would only use StopButton etc which are derived from it
[14:13:21] <robin_sz> new word alert ...
[14:13:35] <robin_sz> Abstract ...
[14:13:54] <robin_sz> EmcButton is Abstract .. you dont use it directly, you make useable things from it
[14:14:00] <rayh> Yes. It is after the specific additional info is connected to it that it becomes an instance of the larger thiiing.
[14:14:13] <robin_sz> yes, pretty much
[14:14:20] <nevyn> rayh: instance is a OO reserved word.
[14:14:55] <rayh> -- oops --
[14:14:56] <robin_sz> you see all these words at first and it sounds like gibberish
[14:15:04] <nevyn> instance means object not class
[14:15:07] <robin_sz> only when you use it do you get it
[14:15:17] <rayh> What is the technical meaning of instance?
[14:15:41] <robin_sz> when a class is used to creat a new object
[14:15:43] <nevyn> if something is an INSTANCE of a class it's a object of that class
[14:16:03] <robin_sz> then thats a specific instance of a Foo class
[14:16:12] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[14:17:07] <robin_sz> true story: a programming mate of mine had a bad bump on the head (bike accident) several weeks unconcious .. woke up to the sound of soem alarm on the hospital equipment going off.
[14:17:09] <rayh> okay. I'll mess that up a few times but I'm beginning to get a picture.
[14:17:26] <robin_sz> looked to his wife (who was amazed to see him wake up anyway)
[14:17:29] <nevyn> when something inherits from a parent or super class and implements the abstract methods then it may be defined as a child class
[14:17:51] <robin_sz> "that beeping class object in the corner ... delete that particular instance of it will you dear?"
[14:17:55] <nevyn> sigh. interfaces let's not.
[14:18:16] <robin_sz> no, lets not :)
[14:18:43] <rayh> Question re emc as i know it.
[14:18:47] <nevyn> that object that implements annoying beep just gc it ;)
[14:19:08] <rayh> emcsh creates a command named EMC_MODE
[14:19:54] <nevyn> is there a C api for emc? or is it all via tcl and tiny little bins ?
[14:19:54] <rayh> It has 4 possible ??? alone it reports the current mode
[14:20:05] <robin_sz> 'k
[14:20:21] <rayh> with an arg it sets emc's mode to manual, auto, mdi.
[14:20:27] <robin_sz> right
[14:20:48] <rayh> In OO terms how would you relate to that.
[14:20:58] <robin_sz> hmm
[14:21:53] <robin_sz> youd implemtnt emcsh as a class that talks to emc, pretty much like emcsh does now
[14:22:05] <rayh> Now I've got to say that this may well be not the best way to relate to EMC's mode.
[14:22:10] <robin_sz> youd create two methods in the class
[14:22:21] <robin_sz> both called emcMode probably
[14:22:43] <robin_sz> one would take no args and return an int say
[14:22:49] <rayh> bidirectional
[14:23:10] <robin_sz> the other woudl take one arg and maybe return an int, maybe void .. design choice
[14:23:30] <nevyn> you could popen emcsh in the emc class and then talk to it over pipes
[14:23:38] <rayh> void -- just do it and shut up??
[14:23:45] <nevyn> void don't return nothing.
[14:23:48] <robin_sz> nothing is returned
[14:23:51] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[14:24:10] <robin_sz> its usually better to return a bool or something, showing if you managed it or not
[14:24:19] <nevyn> * nevyn re-reads that and decides he should take english 101 again
[14:24:44] <nevyn> a void return type means that a method/function doesn't return a value.
[14:24:54] <rayh> Although in EMC's operation, it should report back the change in mode.
[14:25:08] <rayh> You guys are doing great.
[14:25:28] <robin_sz> you might do if(emcsh->emcMode(MODE_MDI)){ ...}else{ //error handling }
[14:25:43] <rayh> Yep.
[14:26:07] <robin_sz> theres better ways of handling errors ... but thats for another day :)
[14:26:28] <robin_sz> * robin_sz throws nevyn an erro
[14:26:48] <rayh> I can see whole layers of EMC response that might be considered errors
[14:26:51] <nevyn> * nevyn catches it. tries to deal with it and barfs anyway
[14:26:56] <robin_sz> heh
[14:28:07] <rayh> I take it erro is a ??? specific kind of thing.
[14:28:18] <robin_sz> no its a typo
[14:28:20] <robin_sz> )
[14:28:22] <robin_sz> :
[14:28:49] <rayh> okay.
[14:29:39] <robin_sz> lets leave errors for another day
[14:29:53] <rayh> Right. I'm up for that.
[14:30:03] <robin_sz> theres more than enough new stuff in the last half hour anyway :)
[14:30:05] <rayh> Our code will not cause errors.
[14:30:15] <robin_sz> quite :)
[14:30:41] <robin_sz> but, say the ethernet between the gui and the machine is unplugged .. that might
[14:31:35] <robin_sz> somewhere, deep, deep down the chain a "no route to host" error is generated
[14:32:16] <rayh> Been there!!
[14:32:40] <robin_sz> that could be "thrown" and will bubble up the stack of things that called the "send a message" function until something "catches" it and prints a warnig onthe screen
[14:33:07] <nevyn> and hopefully stops the machine somehow.
[14:33:16] <robin_sz> hopefully.
[14:33:53] <robin_sz> at least it warns the operator to get his sneakers on and start running
[14:34:06] <robin_sz> either away from or towards :)
[14:34:17] <rayh> Are all of the EMC's error messages "thrown"?
[14:34:25] <robin_sz> not at the moment no.
[14:34:28] <robin_sz> its a C++ thing
[14:34:39] <rayh> Ah okay.
[14:34:49] <robin_sz> it cause "early returns" from functions
[14:35:19] <robin_sz> picks its way back up te subroutine calls if you like
[14:35:19] <rayh> "Thrown" is a sort of, "To whom it may concern" message.
[14:35:23] <nevyn> it's also slow. so you need to be careful using it in performance critical code
[14:36:16] <rayh> No sounds more like it has a return path.
[14:37:15] <nevyn> WHOO jack black cameo
[14:39:54] <rayh> Gonna take a while for today's lesson to sink in.
[14:40:09] <nevyn> Cracked up.
[14:40:23] <rayh> Thanks again guys.
[14:51:31] <paul_c> Morning Steve
[14:51:48] <SteveStallings> Hi Paul
[14:52:53] <robin_sz> that should have given rayh enough to think about ofr a day or so :)
[14:53:12] <nevyn> heh
[14:53:18] <paul_c> SteveStallings: How's the weather on the East coast ?
[14:53:23] <rayh> * rayh is deep in thought.
[14:53:49] <SteveStallings> Dang, what did you do to Ray, I missed it...
[14:54:00] <nevyn> rayh: the answer is 42 now stop.
[14:54:20] <rayh> The long dark teatime...?
[14:54:29] <SteveStallings> Weather is typical March, warm one day, snow the next. Should start acting like spring in a week or two.
[14:55:10] <nevyn> HHGTTG but yeah same author.
[14:55:11] <robin_sz> eep, theyre running the muck spreaders up and down the field now .. hope we're up-wind!
[14:55:22] <nevyn> robin_sz: location?
[14:55:42] <robin_sz> nevyn: theyre about in the middle of the field
[14:55:49] <robin_sz> ho ho.
[14:56:01] <robin_sz> england.
[14:56:35] <nevyn> ah.
[14:56:51] <nevyn> so that whole co-operative farming thing still happens there?
[14:57:45] <nevyn> I never understood how that worked.
[14:58:11] <nevyn> here everyone has equiptment. but ploughing a farm for a crop takes weeks.
[14:58:28] <nevyn> even with BIG equiptment.
[14:58:42] <robin_sz> not heard of that
[14:58:55] <robin_sz> farmers have tractors and ploughs
[14:59:11] <robin_sz> sometimes they hire in contractors to do heavy work
[14:59:56] <nevyn> oh.
[14:59:58] <robin_sz> there are specialits who just do contracting to farmers .. heavy ploughing, harvesting ...
[15:00:03] <nevyn> right.
[15:00:07] <nevyn> that happens here.
[15:00:26] <robin_sz> the only co-opertives I kow of are in milk
[15:00:26] <nevyn> but it's probably only.. 5% of the work
[15:00:44] <rayh> In the dakotas they have field tools that take a 60-80 foot swath.
[15:00:55] <nevyn> we have that.
[15:01:27] <rayh> You got the radio direction finding gear to guide the tractor?
[15:01:34] <nevyn> sure.
[15:01:45] <robin_sz> heh, thats WAY bigger than the Ul then
[15:01:48] <robin_sz> UK
[15:01:49] <nevyn> in .au that sort of thing is common in broad acreage.
[15:02:07] <rayh> It's a whole different world from the 8N ford I used as a kid.
[15:02:09] <nevyn> big wheat and rice and soy farms.
[15:02:14] <robin_sz> my field is only 8 acres .. it would do it in one pass :)
[15:02:38] <nevyn> robin_sz: so this is primary or suplimentary income?
[15:03:00] <nevyn> ie is 8 acres enough to live off in england?
[15:03:02] <robin_sz> its just a field that came with the house, I rent it to the local farmer
[15:03:12] <robin_sz> nah, 700 GBP/year
[15:03:28] <robin_sz> about weeks worth og wages, if you are careful
[15:03:34] <nevyn> robin_sz: so you get to see things growing and it doesn't just lie fallow
[15:03:49] <robin_sz> sure .. grass mainly, for hay
[15:03:55] <robin_sz> this year its .. lupins.
[15:04:30] <SteveStallings> lupins?
[15:04:34] <robin_sz> lupins.
[15:04:36] <nevyn> think peas
[15:04:40] <robin_sz> flower thing.
[15:04:43] <nevyn> and you're in the ballpark
[15:04:53] <nevyn> lupins are a legume.
[15:04:57] <robin_sz> apparently good food for cows
[15:05:03] <nevyn> like peas and beans
[15:05:23] <robin_sz> I just hope they plough in when we are fed up of them
[15:05:33] <robin_sz> I dont want lupins forever
[15:05:38] <nevyn> they're great green manure as well.
[15:06:17] <robin_sz> http://www.medoue.com/lupins.jpg
[15:06:31] <robin_sz> excellent .. we're organic here, so green manure is good
[15:07:50] <robin_sz> local farmer has 200 head of dairy cattle, organic milk production, because it fetches better prices than standard milk.
[15:07:51] <nevyn> http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/l/lupins50.html
[15:08:04] <robin_sz> but that needs lots of acreage for hay and feed
[15:08:11] <nevyn> robin_sz: sure specialising is the way to make it work
[15:09:10] <nevyn> it works well as a nitrogen fixer.
[15:09:32] <alex_joni> greetings all
[15:10:11] <nevyn> hrm we never had call to use lupins we could use higher food value stuff like millet and such.
[15:10:23] <nevyn> clover grass.
[15:11:11] <robin_sz> we have clover grass on at the moment
[15:11:29] <robin_sz> worked well for the last 5 years on a single sowing
[15:11:40] <robin_sz> mix of red clover and rye
[15:12:17] <rayh> Hi Alex.
[15:13:21] <alex_joni> back in half an hour
[15:13:37] <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as alex_joni_away
[15:13:40] <nevyn> robin_sz: http://www.lupins.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/
[15:14:38] <nevyn> I'm watching Dave letterman interview Paris Hilton. and all I can think is about the southpark episode
[15:14:45] <Jymmm> robin_sz: got a few?
[15:15:47] <Jymmm> I installed BeamBoy, but I'm clueless
[15:17:30] <Jymmm> * Jymmm drops a rollpin in #emc... KaTHUNK!
[15:25:38] <A-L-P-H-A> now why do you have a rollpin? and what's a rollpin? Do you mean a rolling pin, used in baking? If so, why do you have one of those?
[15:26:36] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands a rollpin made out of C4 for A-L-P-H-A to machine.
[15:26:50] <nevyn> or does he mean a thing that rolls and involves pins like a roller bearing?
[15:27:17] <paul_c> A rollpin is a small hollow springy dowel for pinning a collar to a shaft.
[15:27:30] <Jymmm> paul_c ty
[15:27:32] <nevyn> ok.
[15:27:54] <paul_c> * paul_c goes to run an errand.
[15:28:24] <Jymmm> come on now, you guys have never heard of a rollpin before?
[15:28:52] <nevyn> not from a mech eng background. it's my hobby and I have much to learn in that area
[15:29:00] <Jymmm> ah
[15:29:56] <Jymmm> I'm surprised actually with a mech eng bkgnd. Thought it be something they would teach.
[15:30:20] <Jymmm> http://members.aol.com/pullingtractor/images/rollpins.gif
[15:30:20] <nevyn> ?
[15:31:00] <Jymmm> they're used everywhere
[15:31:24] <Jymmm> Primarily you'll see them in tools
[15:33:17] <A-L-P-H-A> no I never had
[15:33:42] <A-L-P-H-A> I've seen, and use spring pins, not a rollpin though
[15:34:07] <Jymmm> now I've never heard of spring pins
[15:34:08] <A-L-P-H-A> they look beefy
[15:34:15] <A-L-P-H-A> yes you have
[15:34:21] <A-L-P-H-A> it's in that PICTURE you just posted
[15:34:34] <Jymmm> those are BOTH roll pins
[15:34:50] <A-L-P-H-A> well, it's called a spring pin in these here parts
[15:35:00] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: well your parts suck!
[15:35:04] <nevyn> heh
[15:35:07] <Jymmm> lol
[15:35:14] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, just like your little sister. :)
[15:35:21] <nevyn> oooh...
[15:35:31] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: you pervert, shes been dead 2 years
[15:35:52] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... wonder what was making the movements then... maybe worms
[15:36:00] <Jymmm> maggots
[15:36:15] <A-L-P-H-A> either case, good sensations
[15:36:23] <Jymmm> SMF
[15:36:30] <Jymmm> lol
[15:36:43] <A-L-P-H-A> SMF?
[15:36:50] <A-L-P-H-A> oh
[15:36:53] <A-L-P-H-A> sick mofo
[15:36:57] <Jymmm> bingo
[15:37:06] <Jymmm> or in this case... SSF
[15:37:15] <Jymmm> or DSF
[15:37:22] <A-L-P-H-A> uh, sure
[15:37:40] <Jymmm> s/mo/maggot/
[15:38:04] <Jymmm> any used BeamBoy before?
[15:38:11] <A-L-P-H-A> nope
[15:38:18] <A-L-P-H-A> gameboy add on?
[15:38:21] <Jymmm> or calc beam deflection?
[15:38:41] <Jymmm> BeamBoy == beam deflection calculator
[15:39:05] <nevyn> hrm sleep.
[15:39:07] <nevyn> 3am
[15:39:14] <Jymmm> G'Night nevyn
[15:39:14] <nevyn> yes now sleep is a very good idea.
[15:39:46] <A-L-P-H-A> heh.. discovery chan... just showed a coyote try to bite a porcupine. stupid coyote
[15:39:46] <Jymmm> 3am? Th or We ?
[15:40:08] <A-L-P-H-A> aussie
[15:40:13] <Jymmm> ah
[15:40:17] <A-L-P-H-A> Time: 10:44:18 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), AMD XP 2800+ running at (1-AMD , 2123MHz, 512KB (28% Load)), DDR400 RAM Usage: 742/1024MB (72.46%), C: 50.98gb of 75.42gb free, D: 28.66gb of 39.05gb free, N: 97.11gb of 372.62gb free, Current Uptime: 1day 13hrs 56mins 49secs, Record Uptime: 3wks 12hrs 48mins 50secs, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
[15:40:18] <Jymmm> Fri
[15:40:23] <les> #$%^homeland secutrity I need some nitric acid and it is hard to get
[15:40:31] <les> security
[15:40:43] <Jymmm> les: 50# be enough?
[15:40:50] <les> heh yeah
[15:40:58] <A-L-P-H-A> les... what do you need it for?
[15:41:04] <A-L-P-H-A> please show ID at the counter.
[15:41:12] <les> you just can't get that stuff!
[15:41:22] <Jymmm> les: what do you mean homeland security?
[15:41:28] <les> I am trying to use it to age maple
[15:41:40] <les> supposed to give the best color
[15:41:40] <Jymmm> are you trying to get it shipped in?
[15:41:50] <A-L-P-H-A> detailed description, signed by your laywer, noteterized please.
[15:41:52] <les> yeah.
[15:42:10] <Jymmm> les and whats the problem?
[15:42:14] <A-L-P-H-A> les, what about citric acid?
[15:42:21] <les> Prob going to have to roll my own
[15:43:00] <Jymmm> les: liquid or powder?
[15:43:05] <A-L-P-H-A> les, please do so in a ventalated area... but if you choose not too... can I have your CNC stuff if you pass on?
[15:43:08] <les> battery acid (sulphuric) and ammonium nitrate should do it
[15:43:39] <Jymmm> Ha, you'll have a harder time getting Ammonium Nitrate than Nitric
[15:43:42] <les> funny thing I I have loads of ammonium nitrate
[15:43:43] <Jymmm> acid
[15:43:55] <Jymmm> les: got diesel fuel?
[15:44:00] <les> heheh
[15:44:15] <Jymmm> uh huh, NOW we know why!!!
[15:44:19] <Jymmm> =)
[15:44:23] <les> We use the stuff on the pastures all the time
[15:44:39] <A-L-P-H-A> to blow shit up?
[15:44:45] <les> grr All I need is just a liter or so of nitric
[15:44:47] <les> haha
[15:44:50] <A-L-P-H-A> wasn't that the type of bomb used in oaklahoma
[15:44:51] <A-L-P-H-A> ?
[15:44:55] <les> yeah
[15:45:03] <Jymmm> les: what about sulfuric?
[15:45:40] <les> That's what I said....sulfuric + ammonium nitratr + distill = nitric
[15:45:47] <A-L-P-H-A> hydrochloric?
[15:45:57] <les> not sure there
[15:46:04] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A I doubt that
[15:46:24] <A-L-P-H-A> HCL, isn't that the most nasty acid?
[15:46:42] <Jymmm> If it is, your breathign it right now =)
[15:46:55] <les> I't just that strong oxidizers like nitric acid, pottasium permanganate,etc can make new wood look 100 years old
[15:46:56] <Jymmm> les: 70% be ok?
[15:47:21] <les> well 68 is the nitric acid/ water azeotrope
[15:47:31] <A-L-P-H-A> oops, it's HF.
[15:47:32] <les> so most will be near that strength
[15:47:39] <A-L-P-H-A> Hydrogen Fluride
[15:47:41] <Jymmm> thats not what I asked
[15:47:46] <A-L-P-H-A> that's the nasty stuff
[15:47:48] <les> yes
[15:47:52] <les> but not HF
[15:47:53] <Jymmm> thank you =)
[15:47:54] <les> haha
[15:48:32] <les> I want to try it on the premium turkey call fiddleback maple
[15:48:51] <les> saw some used on maple gunstocks and it looks GREAT
[15:48:55] <A-L-P-H-A> ummm... turkey
[15:48:55] <Jymmm> les you played with BeamBoy by chance?
[15:49:00] <A-L-P-H-A> glazed ham.
[15:49:09] <les> Yes I use it a good bit
[15:49:13] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A you forgot roast beef
[15:49:14] <A-L-P-H-A> baby back ribs
[15:49:24] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm not a fan of roast beef
[15:49:40] <Jymmm> les help this poor clueless bastard will ya =)
[15:49:52] <les> shoot
[15:50:33] <A-L-P-H-A> i feel useless again today... like I just don't wnat to do anything
[15:50:34] <Jymmm> .75" x 36" W1 DrillRod, est 30 lbs load (max)
[15:51:28] <les> loads, locations, and end fixity?
[15:52:18] <Jymmm> les: One word.... huh?
[15:52:31] <Jymmm> les: x axis rails
[15:53:21] <les> Ok the ends are on brackets?
[15:53:31] <Jymmm> yes
[15:53:43] <les> How long are the brackets?
[15:54:07] <Jymmm> .5"
[15:54:24] <Jymmm> assuming you meant width
[15:54:31] <les> ok that is simple end fixity...let me scare up the program and run it
[15:58:31] <robin_sz> Jymmm: you found beamboy OK then ...
[16:02:04] <les> .063 deflection with load and measurement in center
[16:02:20] <Jymmm> les: i found your Nitric Acid. They WILL ship to you no problem
[16:02:27] <Jymmm> I called em already
[16:02:34] <les> yay
[16:02:40] <les> link?
[16:03:04] <Jymmm> les: if you get the 2.5L it HAS to go DHL, if you get a couple of the 500mL, it can go UPS.
[16:03:15] <Jymmm> les: http://store.hvchemical.com/search.htm?searchterm=nitric&goButton=go&step=2&ViewFrom=1&NumResults=10
[16:03:25] <Jymmm> les they are in Utah too
[16:04:19] <Jymmm> .063 ouch
[16:04:36] <les> can you stand a center suppport?
[16:04:48] <Jymmm> not really.
[16:04:54] <les> (open bearings)
[16:05:09] <Jymmm> no
[16:05:15] <les> I see.
[16:05:39] <les> Well deflection will drop as the cube of the diameter
[16:05:47] <les> er...square
[16:05:55] <Jymmm> let me ask this, the linear motion WILL have an effect on the deflection, correct?
[16:06:19] <les> Well loads and torques will sure
[16:06:47] <les> end supported rod is only stiff for a few diameters
[16:06:52] <Jymmm> Ok, that's what I thought. and I'm guestinmating the gantry at 30 lbs including router.
[16:06:54] <les> 10 maybe
[16:07:19] <Jymmm> total?
[16:07:32] <les> Well to be really stiff.
[16:07:52] <les> I did mine using Finite element analysis
[16:08:12] <Jymmm> ok, how about 20 lbs ?
[16:08:15] <les> I I ended up needing x axis 6" thick solid steel
[16:08:24] <les> with center supports
[16:08:25] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Yes I do, but I have no clue =)
[16:08:40] <les> 20 will be 2/3
[16:08:55] <les> how about 1 inch diam?
[16:09:22] <Jymmm> sure
[16:09:58] <Jymmm> so using drillrod is giving this much deflection? doesn't seem very good at all
[16:11:41] <robin_sz> Jymmm: my first router was built with 20mm drillrod
[16:12:04] <robin_sz> Jymmm: it drooped .1" or moe in the middle, under no load
[16:12:19] <Jymmm> robin_sz how long?
[16:12:28] <robin_sz> 900mm
[16:12:47] <Jymmm> dang
[16:12:57] <robin_sz> supported rail is MUCH better
[16:13:17] <les> yes
[16:13:22] <robin_sz> hywin 15mm rail is no more expensive than drill rod really
[16:13:33] <les> .02 for 1 inch
[16:13:38] <les> 4 times better
[16:13:44] <Jymmm> eeesh
[16:14:16] <les> give me a max deflection you want
[16:14:21] <Jymmm> 0
[16:14:34] <les> ok...diam will be 10 miles
[16:14:36] <les> haha
[16:14:38] <Jymmm> (just curious)
[16:15:14] <les> actually since it is the cube...(not the square)
[16:15:32] <Jymmm> brb... goin for a smoke
[16:15:33] <les> 2 inch diam should give you .02
[16:15:37] <les> .002
[16:15:39] <les> sorry
[16:16:13] <les> 1.5 would be almost as good...
[16:16:17] <les> let me check
[16:16:52] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/generic.run: Darn - Forgot to use sudo with mknod.
[16:17:47] <les> yeah 1.5 diam is .004
[16:18:09] <les> That is about as small as I would go on diam
[16:18:28] <les> As Robin said...unsupported beams are not good
[16:18:35] <les> they are wet noodles
[16:20:37] <les> Profile rails bolted on a structural steel member are the way to go
[16:21:04] <les> even a tiny 15mm rail would outperform a thompson bearing
[16:21:17] <les> of that size
[16:23:03] <Jymmm> Yoew$a
[16:23:24] <les> For example 15 mm rail on a 1.5x3 x 1/4 welded square tube would be strong, stiff, light, easy to saw and weld, and cheap
[16:24:17] <les> Got a welder?
[16:24:26] <les> Got a cutoff saw?
[16:24:32] <les> Got money?
[16:24:52] <Jymmm> Got Apartment
[16:24:55] <Jymmm> !
[16:24:59] <les> augh
[16:25:24] <les> Need buddy with garage and tools
[16:25:40] <Jymmm> got sawsall!
[16:25:54] <Jymmm> and drillpress
[16:25:58] <alex_joni_away> alex_joni_away is now known as alex_joni
[16:25:59] <les> Hmm I actually don't have one of those
[16:26:04] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
[16:26:12] <Jymmm> csue you dont need one =)
[16:26:16] <Jymmm> cause
[16:27:00] <les> Actually I do...I am soon gonna start the work on that 12 foot oak arch from living room to dining
[16:27:03] <Jymmm> what about 1" tubing on a diamond
[16:27:18] <les> need it for the demolition work prepping the wall
[16:27:38] <Jymmm> /\
[16:27:38] <Jymmm> \/
[16:27:40] <les> Actuall tubing is almost as good as solid
[16:28:33] <les> Another thing you should know....Young's modulus does not depend on the alloy in steel
[16:28:57] <les> hardened W1 and soft 1018....same modulus
[16:29:06] <les> same bending
[16:29:23] <les> ( within the elestic limit)
[16:29:29] <Jymmm> so w1 "should" have less deflection?
[16:29:35] <robin_sz> nope
[16:29:40] <Jymmm> oh, ok.
[16:29:42] <les> no it will be the same!
[16:30:00] <les> And aluminum will be about double.
[16:30:01] <Jymmm> well shit... might as well use sch40 PVC irrigation pipe!
[16:30:05] <les> haha
[16:30:12] <robin_sz> but a 2lb lenght of tube will bend less than a 2lb lenght of pipe
[16:30:41] <robin_sz> s/pipe/solid/
[16:30:59] <Jymmm> hows that?
[16:31:13] <Jymmm> * Jymmm would have thought the inverse.
[16:31:16] <robin_sz> because the m,aterial is at the edge where is does most good
[16:31:36] <les> It will bend less for it's weight.
[16:31:43] <robin_sz> the bit in the middle does bugger all in a solid
[16:31:52] <les> right
[16:32:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is searching for a pic compiler
[16:32:05] <Jymmm> and the material in the middle (solid) makes the deflection worse?
[16:32:06] <alex_joni> ... free kim eternity pics, free pokemon naked pics of misty, april ark free nude pic, free c compiler pic, dominique ...
[16:32:08] <alex_joni> lol
[16:32:31] <les> Really if you can deal with solid bars you can deal with welded sructural tubing
[16:32:31] <robin_sz> and whats wrong with mplab?
[16:32:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni reset your search preferences to moderated
[16:32:44] <alex_joni> Jymmm: ;)
[16:32:54] <alex_joni> robin: mplab does c?
[16:33:11] <robin_sz> there was a version that did
[16:33:27] <robin_sz> I think it still does
[16:33:58] <Jymmm> I know aluminum has T shape, wonder if there's something is steell with a smooth edge like that as well.
[16:35:07] <les> Jymm I just ran a 1.5x3x 1/4 rect tube...deflection was .00046
[16:35:37] <les> with the rail bolted on one edge it woulld be about .00015
[16:35:50] <les> and that tubing is cheap
[16:36:00] <Jymmm> that's a BIG difference
[16:36:05] <les> yes
[16:36:16] <les> That's why it's made
[16:36:52] <les> It's the way to go.
[16:36:54] <Jymmm> what would it be if .75" x .125" wall ?
[16:37:12] <les> almost as good as solid
[16:37:15] <les> let me check
[16:38:14] <robin_sz> alex_joni: there are two variants of mplab that do C, mplab C18 and mplab C30 ..
[16:38:23] <alex_joni> robin: thx.. either free?
[16:39:10] <Jymmm> alex_joni (Totally Free, just pay $50,000 USD for S&H)
[16:39:19] <les> .078... only about 15% worse than solid
[16:39:29] <robin_sz> oh free? no not free.
[16:39:31] <les> getting the idea?
[16:40:13] <alex_joni> Jymmm: thanks, but I'll pass
[16:40:15] <les> goes as the cube
[16:40:26] <Jymmm> les: sorta kinda. is this taking into consideration the shape and layout?
[16:40:27] <alex_joni> I'll switch to ARM
[16:40:34] <les> so three times the size...1/27 the deflection
[16:40:42] <robin_sz> but im sure you can find a free one if you have enough money
[16:40:48] <Jymmm> lol
[16:40:59] <Jymmm> alex_joni try simtel
[16:41:09] <alex_joni> simtel?
[16:41:11] <les> That is why driveshafts are fat thin walled tubes
[16:41:24] <les> well have to go
[16:41:30] <les> have to mail something
[16:41:36] <robin_sz> alex_joni: its only 263 dollars ... if it saves you one day in programming time on the project, its paid for itself
[16:41:37] <Jymmm> les thanks!
[16:41:48] <les> yw back later
[16:42:01] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://www.google.com/search?q=open+source+pic+compiler&sourceid=mozilla&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
[16:42:05] <alex_joni> robin: that's 262$ too much ;)
[16:42:09] <robin_sz> alex_joni: and theres always edonkey ;)
[16:42:19] <alex_joni> sounds more like it
[16:42:20] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=pic+compiler+gpl&btnG=Search
[16:43:21] <Jymmm> alex_joni: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=pic+compiler+gpl+c&btnG=Search
[16:43:33] <Jymmm> http://www.thefreecountry.com/compilers/cpp.shtml
[16:43:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is familiar with sdcc
[16:43:44] <alex_joni> going home now
[16:43:46] <alex_joni> bye guys
[16:43:51] <alex_joni> thx Jymmm, robin
[16:44:00] <Jymmm> alex_joni c ya
[16:45:00] <robin_sz> cya
[16:45:11] <robin_sz> I like free stuff
[16:45:19] <robin_sz> almost as much as a like good stuff
[16:45:28] <robin_sz> if its free AND good thats great
[16:45:48] <robin_sz> but in the end, I dont mind paying up if I have to
[16:46:39] <robin_sz> Thats why I didn't mind buying Dynamic C for the Rabbit
[16:47:18] <Jymmm> I've donated money to things that were free, was just a quality product.
[16:48:48] <robin_sz> yep
[16:49:27] <robin_sz> its only the truly rich and/or mad that can afford to use bad stuff just because its free
[16:50:42] <robin_sz> eventaully the free stuff will also be the best stuff too.
[16:55:22] <Jymmm> Window 98 $99 USD.... One PAYS to become a virus beta teaster!
[16:55:25] <Jymmm> tester
[16:55:51] <robin_sz> 98 is so ancient
[16:56:11] <Jymmm> heh, I know ppl still using it.
[16:56:27] <robin_sz> again, i wouldnt have 98 if you paid me, but I'll actually pay for XP
[16:57:04] <Jymmm> I wonder if I can find this easily enough...
[16:57:05] <Jymmm> O
[16:57:05] <Jymmm> _/ \_
[16:57:10] <robin_sz> yes
[16:57:21] <Jymmm> I dont even know what that profile is called
[16:57:24] <robin_sz> INA do it ..
[16:57:40] <robin_sz> its more expensive than proper linear rail from hiwin though
[16:57:54] <Jymmm> oh... nm
[16:58:01] <robin_sz> 15mm rail ...
[16:58:10] <robin_sz> 20 GBP per carriage
[16:58:22] <robin_sz> 65 GBP / metre for rail
[16:58:48] <Jymmm> robin_sz: I'm trying to produce a 24" x 36" cnc router including driver, motors, and trim router for under $400
[16:59:04] <Jymmm> maybe 12" x 24"
[16:59:19] <robin_sz> my souter of that size cost about 1200 GBP
[17:00:07] <robin_sz> 3 gecko drives = 400 dollars .. there went your budget
[17:01:18] <Jymmm> http://www.xylotex.com/#3axis $145
[17:01:30] <robin_sz> 2.5A 24V ...
[17:01:36] <Jymmm> $30
[17:03:33] <robin_sz> thier 50 dollar motor looks OK thoug
[17:04:00] <robin_sz> so now we are up to 300 bucks
[17:04:12] <Jymmm> "The base Price for the 3 Stepper motors each with a 4 foot cable is $80.00"
[17:04:24] <Jymmm> used
[17:04:35] <robin_sz> spec?
[17:04:42] <Jymmm> http://www.xylotex.com/Stepper%20Motors.htm
[17:05:18] <Jymmm> ok $35 http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=480&item=PS-2465&type=store
[17:05:55] <Jymmm> so basically, I'm down to ~ $150 for the mechanics
[17:07:52] <robin_sz> the motors are only going to give around 80 oz/in
[17:08:44] <robin_sz> the ones on my router gave 750 oz inch if I remember right
[17:08:58] <robin_sz> (~4.8nm)
[17:09:07] <robin_sz> so you're at 1/10th of that
[17:09:23] <robin_sz> you'll need good low friction ballscrews
[17:09:47] <robin_sz> I think you can forget using nuts and all-thread ...
[17:09:51] <Jymmm> was/am planning in 12/-10 or 3/4-6 cheap acme
[17:10:26] <robin_sz> feel free to try it
[17:10:36] <Jymmm> For a sub $1000 it's not going to be fast at all. Not expecting it to be.
[17:10:45] <robin_sz> could be too high friction when under cutting load to even move
[17:11:38] <robin_sz> 80oz in ... 6 tpi .. 480oz .. say, 30% efficiency
[17:12:08] <robin_sz> 160 oz ... 10lbs thrust
[17:12:14] <robin_sz> thats at LOW speed ...
[17:12:23] <Jymmm> it's gotta be better than this --> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50924&item=3880602521&rd=1
[17:13:51] <robin_sz> I think it will move a 6mm cutter through wood, 3mm depth OK, slowly
[17:14:08] <robin_sz> go for the thinner rod I think
[17:14:15] <robin_sz> 1/2" 10 tpi
[17:14:33] <Jymmm> check this one out --> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3880642735&rd=1
[17:14:38] <robin_sz> personally, I think you are way down on motor size
[17:16:53] <robin_sz> he seems to have sold several at 1000 dollars +
[17:17:05] <Jymmm> yeah, I noticed that.
[17:17:17] <robin_sz> they look crap ;)
[17:17:25] <Jymmm> Yep
[17:17:50] <Jymmm> but he says he has ball bearing on all slides.... I'm like WTH ?
[17:18:00] <robin_sz> draw runners
[17:18:08] <Jymmm> unless they fell off the truck
[17:18:18] <Jymmm> no, he's using .5" SS
[17:18:39] <Jymmm> http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/37/2a/ff_12_b.JPG
[17:19:28] <robin_sz> oh, small linear bearings blocks probably
[17:19:33] <robin_sz> shrug
[17:19:54] <Jymmm> but still.... for under $400
[17:20:17] <Jymmm> his cost
[17:20:50] <robin_sz> the first one .. the plans ..
[17:20:57] <robin_sz> that layout is most cost effective
[17:21:04] <robin_sz> single ballscrew in X
[17:21:08] <robin_sz> and Y
[17:21:40] <Jymmm> ball or acme?
[17:49:31] <robin_sz> if you cant afford ball, then acme ..
[17:49:38] <robin_sz> but ball needs smaller motors
[17:49:51] <robin_sz> or rather acme needs larger ones.
[17:49:52] <Jymmm> less friction/load?
[17:49:54] <robin_sz> yep
[17:50:04] <robin_sz> ballscrew approaches 75% efficiency
[17:50:12] <Jymmm> and acme?
[17:50:13] <robin_sz> that baout right les?
[17:50:28] <robin_sz> acme .. I think 30% ..
[17:50:30] <Jymmm> les went to the post office
[17:50:41] <Jymmm> Hmmm, big difference.
[17:51:02] <Jymmm> I just havne't found "cheap" ballscrew and hardware (yet)
[17:53:16] <Jymmm> have you seen any of the Harbor Freight Mill's modified for cnc?
[17:53:36] <robin_sz> no
[17:53:45] <robin_sz> never heard of harbour freight
[17:53:52] <Jymmm> Grizzly?
[17:53:55] <robin_sz> no
[17:54:00] <robin_sz> not heard of them either
[17:54:15] <Jymmm> sieg ?
[17:54:20] <Jymmm> (sp)
[17:54:21] <robin_sz> ahh, yes
[17:54:30] <robin_sz> I think a bloke in finland bought a sieg
[17:55:01] <Jymmm> on sale $450 USD http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
[17:55:36] <Jymmm> http://www.stirlingsteele.com/millplans.html
[17:57:01] <robin_sz> yes, its a mill
[17:57:15] <Jymmm> lol
[17:59:05] <robin_sz> him infact
[17:59:07] <robin_sz> picnet
[17:59:11] <robin_sz> he bought a sieg
[18:00:33] <Jymmm> I think he's been a ghost for a couple of days
[18:02:57] <Jymmm> Ya know, this is really frustrating. The design if fairly straight forward, but finding material is beign the tough part of the project.
[18:08:19] <Jymmm> and that's really really sad.
[18:13:10] <robin_sz> no finding material is a piece of cake
[18:13:26] <robin_sz> but ... you have to PAY for it ...
[18:13:40] <robin_sz> hiwin do ballscrews and rail dirt cheap
[18:14:11] <robin_sz> your budget of $400 leaves you outside normal commercial sources
[18:14:23] <robin_sz> so you'll struggle and have to rely on luck
[18:42:36] <Jymmm> bbl
[19:10:35] <paul_c> * paul_c wonders if rayh has a wiring diagram for a Fanuc 5M
[19:15:23] <paul_c> Hi ccjoe
[19:18:52] <robin_sz> meep
[19:19:09] <robin_sz> I just looked over the Wiki for the first time in a week or so ...
[19:19:13] <robin_sz> coming on nicely
[19:19:25] <robin_sz> Jon Elson's tuning page is nice
[19:20:07] <ccjoe> hi paul_c
[19:23:40] <rayh> No no fanuc 5m
[19:24:33] <paul_c> Do you know anything about the drives and/or encoders used by Fanuc ?
[19:24:49] <rayh> In the 5 age?
[19:25:01] <paul_c> yes...
[19:25:19] <paul_c> like - Are the encoders TTL ?
[19:26:03] <rayh> DaveE's mazak had a m and that is gettys motors and drives though they were relabeled.
[19:26:17] <paul_c> and what voltages do Fanuc use for Amp enable & fault (I have a feeling they are 15 or 24V)
[19:26:18] <rayh> The motors had tach and resolver in the boot.
[19:26:30] <rayh> 24 as I remember.
[19:26:51] <rayh> All that stuff was. Pulled relays on each board.
[19:27:33] <rayh> I think fault was a dry contact on the drive board.
[19:28:10] <paul_c> Abdul passed a guy over to me for some retro-fit info..
[19:28:26] <rayh> ah.
[19:28:49] <paul_c> The mill has some "Pulse coders" fitted
[19:29:10] <rayh> What machine was the m control on.
[19:29:37] <paul_c> Beaver - A machine that used to be made in Norwich.
[19:29:52] <rayh> Oh that machine. O
[19:30:12] <rayh> Don't know what drives or motors they used at all.
[19:30:35] <paul_c> I've got Fanuc part numbers...
[19:30:49] <rayh> Fanuc made different packages depending upon what part of the world it was.
[19:31:08] <paul_c> With the serial number from the mill, I could probably tell you who did the fianl checks before it was shipped.
[19:31:55] <rayh> That inspector has probably been institutionalized by now.
[19:32:40] <paul_c> The factory has been closed a long time now. But I know where most of the records went.
[19:33:09] <paul_c> Gotta go - Someone is taking me to the pub tonight.
[19:33:26] <paul_c> Back in three or so hours.
[19:33:43] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: Gone for a pint.
[19:54:55] <robin_sz> meep
[21:00:47] <gezr> howdy folks
[21:07:23] <robin_sz> hi
[21:07:42] <les> hello
[21:08:10] <les> still working on the premium line
[21:08:32] <les> Robin your black dyed english sycamore costs too much!
[21:09:28] <robin_sz> heh
[21:09:37] <robin_sz> sycamore isnt a tree
[21:09:41] <robin_sz> its a woody weed
[21:09:46] <les> ?
[21:09:46] <les> it is here
[21:10:00] <robin_sz> sodding things get everywhere
[21:10:04] <les> We would call it a maple
[21:10:09] <robin_sz> close
[21:10:15] <robin_sz> same family
[21:10:32] <robin_sz> its an acer anyway
[21:10:39] <les> Anyway this stuff is 2.50+ per sq ft
[21:10:46] <robin_sz> shrug
[21:10:48] <les> 1/16 thick
[21:11:01] <robin_sz> its dirt cheap here because it wont even burn well
[21:11:14] <les> It is dyed through and through
[21:11:42] <robin_sz> at 1/16th it would be hard not to
[21:11:48] <robin_sz> its like blotting paper
[21:11:53] <les> I laminate it and holly to my fiddleback maple
[21:12:09] <robin_sz> can be quite birds-eye
[21:12:22] <les> oh this stuff is curly
[21:12:28] <les> not that I need it
[21:12:32] <robin_sz> but you dont get much flame in it really
[21:12:58] <robin_sz> its q bit more yellow than maple
[21:13:06] <les> funny thing.... 4x4" laminated on the plank
[21:13:24] <les> and what is left is a 3.75x 3/16 ring
[21:13:32] <les> all the rest sawdust
[21:13:37] <robin_sz> heh
[21:14:01] <les> but it is looking cheaper than any alternative method
[21:14:24] <robin_sz> laminate and then vac press?
[21:14:34] <les> yeah
[21:15:20] <les> So I have about $3 per unit in material
[21:15:27] <robin_sz> coo
[21:15:30] <les> $6 for cnc
[21:15:31] <robin_sz> pricey
[21:15:41] <robin_sz> $3 is a lot
[21:15:56] <les> and whatever is needed to glue the rossette and finish
[21:16:05] <les> I'll say 1/2 hr
[21:16:15] <les> double the labor...
[21:16:34] <les> and I am at $19 per unit my sale price
[21:17:13] <les> Now fancy stuff like this seems to be going for about $100 msrp
[21:17:41] <les> close to 5:1
[21:17:50] <les> which is the rule I use
[21:17:51] <robin_sz> hmmm
[21:18:10] <robin_sz> nice market :)
[21:18:31] <les> The idea is to productively make the high end stuff that blows away the hand crafters
[21:18:44] <les> not to put them out of a job....
[21:19:00] <robin_sz> whatever ...
[21:19:08] <robin_sz> dog-eat-dog
[21:19:12] <les> but to convince them to stay away from their lathes and chisels and just resell our stuff
[21:19:23] <robin_sz> business is business
[21:19:51] <les> They can still keep quaint scenes of lathes and chisels in their ads
[21:19:56] <les> But
[21:20:05] <les> I will blow them away on price
[21:20:14] <les> with as good or better quality
[21:20:20] <robin_sz> what you need is errors
[21:20:36] <les> sorry don't do that.
[21:20:38] <robin_sz> chisel marks in the carving :)
[21:20:47] <les> I can beat them with chainss haha
[21:21:07] <les> Naw the stuff I saw was lathe turned really
[21:21:17] <pfred1> get out them antiquing tire chains!
[21:21:48] <les> As you have seen putting a quick field of habnd chisel marks on a cnc sign works wonders
[21:21:51] <robin_sz> Iused to deliberatley turn down the number of segemnts on my signmaking so it did not make perfect arcs, but had small lines joined up
[21:21:58] <les> only takes a few minutes
[21:22:23] <les> yeah I have done that too
[21:22:27] <robin_sz> and ..
[21:22:43] <robin_sz> I told it it was a 25 degree cutter when it was 30
[21:22:50] <robin_sz> so it scalloped a bit
[21:22:52] <les> heh
[21:23:01] <robin_sz> looked neat
[21:23:02] <les> the human touch.
[21:23:19] <robin_sz> no where did I say it was CNC
[21:23:29] <robin_sz> it didnt say it was hand doen either ;)
[21:23:35] <les> I have to forget about the nitric acid aging though I guess
[21:23:44] <les> I checked the link
[21:24:09] <les> damn stuff is $50+ shipping per half liter deliviered
[21:24:18] <robin_sz> eek
[21:24:32] <robin_sz> and you'll get inspected
[21:24:34] <les> hazmat fees is over half
[21:24:57] <les> Oh well it would have cost too much
[21:25:04] <les> but it does look great
[21:25:27] <robin_sz> nitric is part of the RDX recipe ... start buying and you are sure to get a visit ..
[21:25:44] <les> part of a lot of kaboom recipies
[21:26:22] <les> Oh I can still make it from all my ammonium nitrate fertilizer and sulfuric
[21:26:55] <les> I did want some for tha nice flamed maple Hawken rifle stock I want to do
[21:27:03] <les> that's hobby stuf though
[21:28:17] <robin_sz> red fuming nitric is what you need :)
[21:28:19] <les> Funny most want to make ammonium nitrate from nitric rather than what I want
[21:28:48] <les> well anything beyond the azeotrope will fume
[21:28:55] <robin_sz> I forget how thats made .. ISTR it involves an electric kettle and a long LONG lead :)
[21:29:03] <les> if it has a bit of N2O it will be red too\
[21:29:43] <les> simple... take fertilizer and mix it with battery acid
[21:29:46] <les> heat it
[21:29:58] <les> distill the nitric
[21:30:01] <robin_sz> whatever, in this day and age, i suspect new purchasers of such things get a visit from the BATF
[21:30:05] <les> salts will be left
[21:30:18] <les> yeah
[21:30:39] <robin_sz> there must be easier ways to age wood?
[21:30:55] <robin_sz> did it look good btw?
[21:30:58] <les> well there is nothing like oxidation
[21:31:03] <robin_sz> true
[21:31:10] <robin_sz> heat it?
[21:31:12] <les> looks very good on some woods
[21:31:16] <les> yeah
[21:31:24] <les> heat works too
[21:31:41] <les> unfortunate structural things happen though
[21:32:09] <robin_sz> true
[21:32:38] <les> Oh well can't have eveything
[21:32:50] <les> won't consider it for production I guess
[21:33:02] <les> But my rifle stocks: yes
[21:34:29] <robin_sz> you'll be making your own 'damascus' barrels next
[21:34:35] <les> heh
[21:34:47] <les> I really like the black powder guns
[21:34:51] <robin_sz> I doubt the skills to do that exist still
[21:35:31] <les> Damascus was just twisted wrought iron with lots of slag inclusions
[21:35:33] <pfred1> you can fume wood
[21:35:36] <pfred1> with ammonia
[21:35:42] <les> Pfred yes
[21:35:56] <les> tannin rich woods respond to ammonia
[21:36:02] <les> likw white oak
[21:36:13] <pfred1> fume tent
[21:36:38] <les> Need ammonia a bit stronger than the houshold kind
[21:36:49] <gezr> hahaha
[21:37:03] <gezr> you know, hahaha, fertilizer, ammonia, hahaha
[21:37:14] <gezr> sorry
[21:37:18] <gezr> hahahaha
[21:37:21] <robin_sz> http://members.toast.net/keithkearcher/
[21:37:34] <les> sounds like I want to blow up the world but I am just trying to color wood
[21:37:39] <gezr> yeah I know
[21:37:58] <robin_sz> les: no its a mix of iron and steel rod/wire wound around a mandrel and then hammer/heat welded
[21:38:05] <gezr> if not blow anything up, its gonna smell like your the crack king
[21:38:10] <les> Oh I know about blowing up stuff I guess
[21:38:30] <les> I worked with Lawrence Livermore National Lab In school.
[21:38:52] <gezr> i just found it funny thats all, the things we cant do, that we could safely do
[21:38:55] <les> That is blowing up stuff on a different level I guess.
[21:39:16] <les> yeah this is getting out of hand
[21:39:25] <gezr> thats what im talking about
[21:39:31] <les> acids are useful metal and woodworking tools
[21:39:52] <gezr> ive got some new neighbors who havent seen me outside with a few torches heat treating a hunk of metal yet
[21:40:08] <les> heh
[21:40:18] <robin_sz> http://members.toast.net/keithkearcher/examples.html
[21:40:21] <robin_sz> wow ...
[21:40:28] <gezr> im gonna have one hell of a time explaining to the local law enforcement that what im doing is safe
[21:40:32] <robin_sz> now, that, is craftsmanship
[21:40:53] <pfred1> gezr what are you doing?
[21:41:00] <les> you shouldn't have to
[21:41:21] <gezr> pfred1 : anything, im in a residential neighborhood
[21:41:36] <pfred1> gezr yeah I'm getting the hell out of one of those myself
[21:41:44] <pfred1> sux being up my neighbor's asses
[21:41:54] <pfred1> sux having them up mine!
[21:42:16] <gezr> Im nice to all of mine, but ive got enough stuff to really make someone ask questions
[21:42:18] <pfred1> I'll get the last laugh tho I'll sell the place to Dominican coke dealers
[21:42:33] <les> Yeah it's better out here in the sticks...you can do what you want
[21:42:42] <pfred1> les heck yeah!
[21:42:44] <les> No building permits even
[21:42:56] <gezr> im either in one of two classifications, too risky to steal from(they may see me as a threat), or oh gowd, that guy has a gold mine
[21:42:58] <pfred1> hillbillies uber alles!
[21:43:00] <les> no inspectores
[21:43:04] <les> haha
[21:43:29] <pfred1> yeah when I put up my outbuilding I'm not going to get no stinking permit
[21:43:57] <les> When I contracted for my shop we just put it up.
[21:44:08] <gezr> rock on
[21:44:15] <gezr> Im in city limits
[21:44:24] <pfred1> this is America the land of the free
[21:44:28] <les> Actually it is to code because I am an engineer...but there were no inspectors or permits
[21:44:50] <les> Conduit electrics even
[21:44:56] <gezr> high tech
[21:44:59] <les> which is usually not used here
[21:45:04] <pfred1> yeah I'll build something good i been in construction for over 20 years
[21:45:18] <robin_sz> gunsmithing is probably one of the last outposts of craftsmanship in its true sense.
[21:45:23] <les> Conduit is good for shops
[21:45:39] <pfred1> yeah I'll throw some in the slab
[21:45:40] <les> actually factory mutual requires it for insurance underwriting
[21:46:08] <gezr> yeah insureance
[21:46:13] <gezr> hmm
[21:46:13] <les> But I just did it because it is safe
[21:46:15] <gezr> gijoe
[21:46:27] <pfred1> they don't like BX cable?
[21:46:41] <les> Not in industrial aps
[21:46:54] <les> romex that is
[21:47:04] <pfred1> BX armor jacket
[21:47:06] <les> Bx is ok in some areas
[21:47:25] <gezr> conduit provides a place for heat to go and stuff like that, less chance of open air bare wire
[21:47:34] <les> I use sealtight for all the machine connections
[21:47:41] <gezr> not that the wire inside is any better
[21:47:54] <les> right
[21:47:57] <pfred1> you can overfill conduit
[21:48:11] <les> yup
[21:48:20] <gezr> ive seen a good EE connection suddenly become live, when earth ground was removed, something was really really strange
[21:48:26] <les> NEC says how many wires you can put in
[21:48:31] <pfred1> or just use the wrong damn wires for loads
[21:48:40] <gezr> earth ground as in an extra external connection to an earth rod
[21:49:02] <les> I have a 5 wire edison system to all work areas
[21:49:13] <pfred1> edison?
[21:49:29] <les> so you can get 120, single phase 240, or three phase 240
[21:49:32] <pfred1> what'd that crank know?
[21:49:46] <gezr> phase, phase, phase, gorund, neutral
[21:49:49] <pfred1> wow you got 3 phase?
[21:49:54] <les> hot wild neutral hot ground
[21:49:57] <les> yes
[21:50:02] <pfred1> man that's nice
[21:50:09] <pfred1> converters suck
[21:50:16] <gezr> les; why the neutral and ground?
[21:50:18] <les> no I use one
[21:50:19] <pfred1> actually having it off the pole is nice
[21:50:21] <pfred1> oh
[21:50:23] <les> a BIG one
[21:50:28] <gezr> rotary phase roxers
[21:50:30] <les> so it's good three phase
[21:50:32] <pfred1> even small ones are big ones
[21:50:34] <les> balanced
[21:51:03] <gezr> les : Ive just never understood the neutral and ground things, they are essentially the same right?
[21:51:06] <les> I have voltages balanced to within 10%
[21:51:09] <robin_sz> there is little use for them in most settings IMHO, not with VFDs availabel for $cheap
[21:51:26] <les> yeah getting cheaper
[21:51:34] <robin_sz> and so nice to use ..
[21:51:39] <les> GEzr: Neutral is not ground
[21:51:47] <pfred1> yeah the solid state ones?
[21:51:47] <robin_sz> I have one on my 2,2kw lathe
[21:51:49] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:51:49] <pfred1> they more effecient
[21:52:01] <robin_sz> nice accel and braking ... varispeed
[21:52:02] <pfred1> the old motor to motor jobbies i donno
[21:52:06] <robin_sz> awesome
[21:52:10] <pfred1> boat anchors
[21:52:31] <les> oops cap lock
[21:52:39] <pfred1> whoo shout him down!
[21:52:40] <robin_sz> well, if you have one, fine, but really, when I see peopel going "im building a convertor to drive my old bridgeport" I feel the need to shake them
[21:52:41] <pfred1> heh
[21:52:44] <les> what I typed the a
[21:53:00] <pfred1> robin_sz yup
[21:53:05] <les> robin: yeah
[21:53:11] <robin_sz> ih you need 100amps of real 3pahse, a rotary wont help you
[21:53:21] <pfred1> the new ones use what capacitors to phase shift?
[21:53:31] <robin_sz> 300amps of a single phase is going to go "BANG" real soon.
[21:53:40] <les> I can only do about 40 amps now
[21:54:00] <les> and the idler is BIG....1.5" shaft
[21:54:02] <pfred1> I saw a guy lob through 1000 amp 440V 3 phase cable once
[21:54:14] <robin_sz> did he live?
[21:54:17] <pfred1> well the whole bundle of them
[21:54:20] <pfred1> yup
[21:54:34] <les> For the forseeable future I just need to run Perskes and stuff
[21:54:35] <pfred1> he was using greenlee fiberglass handled loppers
[21:54:43] <les> so it will be an inverter
[21:54:46] <pfred1> blew them just about clean in half
[21:54:50] <robin_sz> heh
[21:54:51] <les> cause I need up to 500 Hz
[21:55:00] <robin_sz> yeah
[21:55:06] <robin_sz> you'll love the invertor
[21:55:13] <pfred1> they were up on a hilo when they did it and the one guy says to the other Johnny, you running like you just stole something!
[21:55:19] <les> I won't love the price
[21:55:27] <pfred1> man we all almost fell over laughing!
[21:55:30] <robin_sz> just search eBay for VFD, I think Hitachi sell cheap online
[21:55:40] <les> will check
[21:55:52] <pfred1> Hitachi industrial
[21:56:23] <pfred1> we had to take them loppers off the cables with a broom handle they were just up there dancing
[21:56:29] <les> heh
[21:56:44] <pfred1> it was like one of them ground display waterfall fireworks shows
[21:57:52] <pfred1> then the boss comes in and he finds out what happened all he says was there were brand new loppers
[21:58:03] <pfred1> big old hole right in them
[21:58:34] <pfred1> heh they made a mint scrapping the cable off that job plenty to buy lots of pairs of loppers
[21:59:24] <les> yup
[21:59:27] <pfred1> we'd tie the cables to the time of a grabber bucket on a skid steer and pull it out of the conduit like 500 feet at a time
[21:59:43] <pfred1> filled tandems with 400MCM cable
[21:59:53] <les> I could use a skid steer
[21:59:55] <pfred1> me too
[22:00:01] <pfred1> really I'd like a kubuta
[22:00:25] <robin_sz> skid steer?
[22:00:28] <pfred1> kubuta front end loader then get the 3 point bucket attachment
[22:00:31] <robin_sz> is that a fork lift truck to me?
[22:00:34] <pfred1> bobcat
[22:00:40] <pfred1> well
[22:00:40] <robin_sz> ah right
[22:00:51] <pfred1> bigger tires
[22:00:59] <pfred1> bobcats way 3 tons
[22:01:05] <pfred1> weigh even
[22:01:20] <robin_sz> my forklift will lift 2 tonnes ..
[22:01:24] <robin_sz> no idea what it weighs
[22:01:35] <pfred1> they made out of like half inch plate
[22:01:35] <les> Oh speaking of vehicles
[22:01:46] <les> I had a scheduled oil change in my truck
[22:01:55] <les> they used 5W20!!!
[22:02:02] <les> I was surprised
[22:02:10] <pfred1> new vehicles use light weight oils
[22:02:15] <pfred1> but that's real light
[22:02:16] <robin_sz> les: dont forget ... jmkasunich designs VFDs for a living .. you never know, you might get trade ;)
[22:02:17] <les> I guess
[22:02:31] <les> robin: yeah
[22:02:41] <gezr> les at least they let you know what they used
[22:02:47] <robin_sz> 5W20 ...
[22:03:03] <pfred1> les use PTFE additive like tufoil that stuff really works!
[22:03:13] <robin_sz> well, if thats what the book asks for ...
[22:03:13] <les> sounds like diesel oil to me
[22:03:41] <les> This is for the Ford Triton Modular V-8 engine
[22:03:42] <robin_sz> 10W40 and 15W40 are more normal here
[22:03:47] <robin_sz> oh,
[22:03:55] <robin_sz> could be right then ...
[22:04:01] <robin_sz> if thats what the manufacturer specs
[22:04:07] <les> it is
[22:04:15] <robin_sz> best go with it :)
[22:04:18] <les> yeah
[22:04:23] <robin_sz> * robin_sz orders a curry
[22:04:36] <les> I think it's mostly a mileage thing
[22:05:10] <les> which is ok...
[22:05:47] <les> We in the colonies are getting upset again because petrol costs more than bottle water
[22:06:07] <robin_sz> you know how much it is here?
[22:06:17] <les> over $2
[22:06:37] <robin_sz> well, its basically 85p/litre here
[22:06:54] <robin_sz> say $8 a (uk) gallon
[22:07:01] <les> hmmm nearly 4 times as much
[22:07:14] <les> ok I won't complain
[22:07:34] <robin_sz> what mileage do you get?
[22:07:45] <pfred1> robin_sz that's because of your crooked government's taxes
[22:07:59] <les> good...The truck is heavy...but gets in the mid to high teens
[22:08:09] <les> due to rear axle ratio
[22:08:20] <robin_sz> les: coo. thats not good :)
[22:08:34] <robin_sz> pfred1: nah, its failry normal for all euorpe
[22:08:39] <les> the BMW gets 30 mpg with almost as much HP
[22:08:48] <les> It is heavy too for it's size
[22:08:50] <robin_sz> pfred1: remember too, this is now a global market ... it will equalise ...
[22:09:09] <pfred1> robin_sz yeah but the UK has the what's it called the north slope? them wells out in the ocean
[22:09:21] <les> north sea.
[22:09:23] <robin_sz> yeah, but we dont make fuel from it
[22:09:26] <pfred1> north sea
[22:09:32] <robin_sz> its too good for fuel
[22:09:33] <pfred1> well who does?
[22:09:45] <robin_sz> it all goes for plastics etc AFAIK
[22:10:11] <les> really
[22:10:18] <pfred1> burn it!
[22:10:23] <les> it is heavy crude?
[22:10:31] <robin_sz> its a "light brown" crude
[22:10:32] <gezr> you know I bet every electric car has oil in its gear box :)
[22:10:33] <pfred1> the whole north sea deal is a bit of a scandal
[22:10:49] <robin_sz> it is?
[22:10:51] <pfred1> gezr oil is important as a lubricant
[22:10:53] <robin_sz> coo.
[22:11:20] <pfred1> can't have a well oiled machine without it!
[22:11:26] <robin_sz> personally, I think the petrol price in the UK is too low, but I may be out of line with most people.
[22:11:38] <pfred1> too low?
[22:11:43] <robin_sz> yes.
[22:11:47] <robin_sz> too low.
[22:11:51] <pfred1> bring back 27c a gallon!
[22:11:57] <robin_sz> FAR too many cars on the road
[22:12:11] <robin_sz> people just use it for .. well, no reason ...
[22:12:12] <les> Well yeah here too
[22:12:18] <pfred1> robin_sz what are roads for?
[22:12:20] <robin_sz> theres what, 20 years of it left?
[22:12:26] <gezr> the recent rises in fuel prices has been a direct result of countries such as china and others becomming more industrialized, there is a much larger market for the stuff now
[22:12:28] <pfred1> maybe 40
[22:12:31] <robin_sz> pfred1: driving on.
[22:12:43] <robin_sz> pfred1: Id like to be able to drive on them when I need to .. I cant
[22:12:45] <pfred1> gezr yup they want to live like us
[22:12:57] <robin_sz> pfred1: because they are blocked solid with cars.
[22:13:06] <pfred1> robin_sz I've read about UK road revolts
[22:13:16] <pfred1> people hwo protest traffic there
[22:13:46] <pfred1> saw the stats for cars per mile of road and the UK has like 2X the cars per mile as the US does on it's roadways
[22:13:50] <robin_sz> pfred1: I'll take twice the petrol price, roads half as full and 80 years of ptrol instead of 40 please.
[22:14:13] <les> I drive only about 2000 miles a year now
[22:14:16] <pfred1> robin_sz the hting is we have to move
[22:14:32] <robin_sz> rubbish
[22:14:38] <pfred1> I'm making the long drive tomorrow
[22:14:38] <les> used to drive 12,000+
[22:14:48] <les> that silly commuting
[22:15:18] <pfred1> no really i need to get all my stuff 300 miles away
[22:15:18] <robin_sz> most of the people driving could telecommute
[22:15:18] <pfred1> what am i going to do carry it?
[22:15:18] <gezr> how much fuel is consumed in one air flight?
[22:15:18] <gezr> nevermind, way off topic
[22:15:18] <les> Gezr: alot
[22:15:18] <robin_sz> reps DO NOT need to drag themselves up and down the country to shake hands and hand over a brochure
[22:15:20] <pfred1> they put that stuff onboard by the ton don't they?
[22:15:39] <pfred1> robin_sz sure they do if they want to sell everyone likes the personal touch
[22:15:43] <pfred1> makes them feel special
[22:15:59] <les> I am in to that now Robin...ITW wants me to hang in Chicago or Switzerland
[22:16:05] <les> I don't want to
[22:16:23] <les> They want the face to face
[22:16:34] <robin_sz> go swiss :)
[22:16:34] <les> couldn't we do it on the computer?
[22:16:35] <pfred1> get a webcam :)
[22:17:10] <les> oh I have to pay my company travel expenses
[22:17:15] <pfred1> les oh here it is have a lifesized cardboard cutout made of you and mail it to them with assembly instructions enclosed
[22:17:19] <les> So I REALLY don't like it
[22:17:34] <les> heh
[22:17:48] <robin_sz> most office workers COULD work from home, ADSL and a phone
[22:17:58] <les> of course
[22:18:01] <pfred1> maybe go high tech get one of them doll inserts where you pull the cord and it emits pithy sayings
[22:18:16] <les> I can hardly count the times I went across the pond
[22:18:23] <les> for a one hour meeting
[22:18:37] <les> talk about silly
[22:18:48] <pfred1> man we just need like gasahol or something
[22:19:25] <les> Gezr was wondering about the fuel used for air travel
[22:19:34] <pfred1> kerosene isn't it?
[22:19:37] <robin_sz> * robin_sz puts "red barchetta" on the stereo
[22:19:42] <les> If he wanted to haul his ass to say LA or something
[22:20:06] <les> It would take about 600 lb of jet A
[22:20:52] <les> jet A is very similar to kerosene yes
[22:21:03] <robin_sz> JET-A1
[22:21:24] <robin_sz> and a 737 is actually pretty efficient
[22:21:27] <pfred1> ah someone will come up with a workable fuel cell solution eventually
[22:21:29] <les> The low flamability stuff?
[22:21:33] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:21:43] <les> Pfred: they can
[22:21:47] <les> but won't
[22:21:54] <les> as long as oil is around
[22:22:00] <pfred1> I know infrastructure profits
[22:22:19] <pfred1> someone just has to go out and crank the stuff out
[22:22:29] <pfred1> and screw whoever gets hurt by it
[22:22:29] <robin_sz> until its gone ...
[22:22:40] <pfred1> man at the price it's at now it's gone
[22:22:52] <pfred1> unless you're a rap star
[22:22:53] <robin_sz> you aint seen nothing yet
[22:23:23] <robin_sz> things are starting to run out ..
[22:23:24] <pfred1> people can't afford to heat their homes anymore
[22:23:25] <robin_sz> oil.
[22:23:29] <robin_sz> helium ..
[22:24:06] <robin_sz> gas and electric for a typical home are 500 /qtr in the UK
[22:24:10] <robin_sz> 2000 yr.
[22:24:11] <gezr> hmm
[22:24:27] <robin_sz> thats pretty normal for europe
[22:24:29] <pfred1> not bad
[22:24:30] <gezr> hmm
[22:24:44] <robin_sz> so 4000 dollars US
[22:25:19] <les> nearly $1000/mo for me jan and feb
[22:25:34] <robin_sz> that includes the factory though?
[22:25:37] <les> yes
[22:25:39] <pfred1> les what do you have for insulation tissue paper?
[22:25:49] <les> seemingly
[22:25:58] <gezr> running a shop costs lots :)
[22:26:05] <gezr> keeping emc up the same :)
[22:26:20] <pfred1> that seems awfully high to me for where you're at
[22:26:27] <les> Well if I run enough machines they weill provide the heat
[22:26:54] <les> Pfred: old leaky farm house...I'm working on it
[22:27:02] <pfred1> the thing is to trap the heat though
[22:27:28] <les> In my case the floor is the problem
[22:27:54] <les> Need more underpinning
[22:28:02] <les> but must be carefull
[22:28:03] <robin_sz> and the walls ... doors, roof ...windows
[22:28:05] <pfred1> one job we had to raise the floor to another level so they glued styrofoam to the floor then we poured over it
[22:28:19] <robin_sz> but hey, the door latch .. well thats just great!
[22:28:29] <les> insulation is installed heavily in walls and roof
[22:28:30] <gezr> whoot I think the wife is home :)
[22:28:42] <les> the underpinning is a termite issue though
[22:28:49] <robin_sz> ahh.
[22:28:59] <pfred1> when i pour my pad I'm going to insulate it
[22:29:17] <les> We cannot use chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides here anymore
[22:29:21] <robin_sz> and you know where you must insulate to get best effect ..??
[22:29:30] <robin_sz> the edges
[22:29:32] <les> me?
[22:29:34] <les> floor
[22:29:40] <robin_sz> insulating the middle does little
[22:29:47] <robin_sz> pfred1, his slab
[22:29:48] <les> It's shunting all the rest of the insulation
[22:30:32] <robin_sz> eventually the middle will come to temperature even uninsulated .. its the edges where it gets out and taken away by the wind
[22:30:35] <les> And I did not have time to deal with it...I am so busy
[22:30:37] <Jymmm> les: terminte huh, NOW we know what the nitric acid is for!
[22:30:38] <les> so I just paud
[22:30:42] <pfred1> robin_sz yeah i may put foam right on the form then leave it make it easier to strip
[22:30:46] <les> if ican get some time off...
[22:31:17] <robin_sz> pfred1: our slab has 2" polyurethane under and 2" up all the external edges
[22:31:34] <les> The underside was left open due to termite stuff
[22:31:44] <les> but the wind howls through
[22:32:02] <pfred1> yeah there is an issue with termites and foam but there is a fix for it
[22:32:07] <les> floor often is cold enough to freeze water if spilled on it
[22:32:11] <pfred1> I think you just sheath in plastic first
[22:32:16] <robin_sz> yow!
[22:32:18] <les> yes
[22:32:33] <pfred1> stone bed plastic insulation concrete
[22:32:40] <robin_sz> the rest of the workd build off solid slabs ...
[22:32:42] <pfred1> beer
[22:32:50] <les> pity they never invented basements here
[22:33:03] <robin_sz> only you crazy mercans build things on stilts
[22:33:06] <pfred1> water table too high for me to have basement new place
[22:33:13] <pfred1> I want to be above ground anyways
[22:33:39] <pfred1> bbiab going to check on wire I'm painting
[22:34:00] <les> this is an old house built in 1929
[22:34:20] <les> but I had one built around the same time in Chicago...it was warm
[22:35:16] <les> thanks to basements
[22:35:30] <les> just don't put much stuff down there
[22:37:38] <robin_sz> w00t .. someone bought the punch!
[22:37:49] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40003&item=3879168726&rd=1
[22:37:59] <robin_sz> excellent ... more floorspace again :)
[22:39:12] <les> 300 not bad
[22:39:32] <robin_sz> since its dead, not bad at all
[22:39:34] <Jymmm> robin_sz: whats the deal with this 100W CO2 laser?
[22:39:59] <robin_sz> Jymmm: well, its a 100w laser m and if you pay 300 quid, its yours.
[22:40:34] <les> hehpiot987flying
[22:40:43] <robin_sz> les: my mate simon
[22:40:51] <les> pilot
[22:41:11] <robin_sz> complicated deal, some bits his, some bits are mine ..
[22:41:18] <les> oh
[22:41:38] <robin_sz> half of my stuff is in his unit, half of his stuff is in my unit ...
[22:41:46] <robin_sz> etc etc etc
[22:41:58] <les> I ought to rig up an ebay store I guess
[22:42:21] <les> for signs
[22:42:32] <robin_sz> Jymmm: it takes 425 3phase, about 6kw in to produce 100w of laser out
[22:42:36] <les> but I have the sign ads turned off right now
[22:42:43] <robin_sz> 415
[22:42:51] <les> too busy with other stuff
[22:42:51] <robin_sz> silly me
[22:42:55] <Jymmm> robin_sz Ah, nm.
[22:43:11] <robin_sz> theres a similar one on laserresale for $8000
[22:43:47] <robin_sz> any 100W laser will be around 6kw in or more ... so it will most likely be 3phase
[22:44:12] <robin_sz> looks like I sold the 450W ferranti too :)
[22:44:38] <robin_sz> and the 1200W trumpf has gone ..
[22:44:49] <robin_sz> we'll have cash AND space ... :)
[23:08:08] <pfred1> K`zan how are the books?
[23:31:52] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[23:31:58] <pfred1> wb
[23:32:09] <paul_c> <hic>
[23:42:08] <paul_c> Evening siado
[23:42:26] <siado> good evening
[23:42:36] <pfred1> anyone here think urethane makes a good insulator?
[23:42:39] <siado> just thought i'd sit here and leech knowledge for a while
[23:43:56] <paul_c> pfred1: 'pends on what voltage you are running at, and also the thickness
[23:44:14] <pfred1> paul_c well I'm on my third coat
[23:45:06] <paul_c> urethane paint ?
[23:45:14] <pfred1> so far it's looking nice but I did a little continuity testing and first hit I got a reading then nothing
[23:45:15] <pfred1> yes
[23:45:33] <pfred1> it's automotive clearcoat Dupont S837 I htink
[23:45:45] <pfred1> I had a can laying around
[23:46:20] <paul_c> should be good for low voltages, but I wouldn't recommend mains potential.
[23:46:40] <gezr> hmm
[23:46:43] <pfred1> yeah I'm doing it for secondary windings of a transformer
[23:46:52] <Jymmm> pfred1: great insulator for tesla coils!
[23:46:59] <pfred1> hoping for about 15V
[23:47:03] <pfred1> 25V even
[23:47:38] <Jymmm> pfred1 why not use mag wire?
[23:47:50] <pfred1> see i stripped this piece of romex for the wires in it and wound the transformer with the hot wire and it works but it's sloppy and looks like hell
[23:47:58] <pfred1> Jymmm ah, because i don't have any?
[23:47:59] <gezr> how is that stuff gonna smell once it gets hot?
[23:48:16] <pfred1> gezr probably pretty good smells great wet :)
[23:48:23] <pfred1> it's like $120 a gallon paint
[23:48:34] <Jymmm> romex? so it's like what... 12ga ?
[23:48:43] <pfred1> this piece is 14
[23:48:57] <Jymmm> * Jymmm just shaks his head
[23:48:58] <pfred1> 12 I thought would have been a bit of overkill
[23:49:24] <pfred1> the sutff I pulled out of this transformer was 14
[23:51:02] <Jymmm> This is really taking it out of me. I just can't find DrillRod or acme thread locally.
[23:51:19] <pfred1> Jymmm no mail?
[23:51:40] <Jymmm> I dont want to order, I want a local source.
[23:52:04] <pfred1> Jymmm then move nextdoor to me everything is around here
[23:52:12] <Jymmm> wheres that?
[23:52:22] <pfred1> bout 15 miles outside of NYC
[23:52:54] <Jymmm> hell, I feel I'm in Alaska at this rate.... fsck I'm 40 minutes south of San Francisco
[23:53:14] <pfred1> Jymmm sounds great for gay bars ...
[23:53:35] <gezr> Jymmm : nothing in the us is sitting on a shelf
[23:53:35] <gezr> well it is but not like it used to be
[23:53:48] <gezr> there is one on the shelf, and themoment it is purchased, an order is placed for a new one to be made to take the last ones place
[23:54:25] <gezr> I dont make the ruels
[23:55:08] <Jymmm> * Jymmm smacks gezr for making the rules, or reading them if nothing else!
[23:55:20] <Jymmm> fscking bush!
[23:55:31] <gezr> Jymmm : we deal with the same thing at work, and bush has nothign to do with it
[23:56:13] <pfred1> what are we dealing with?
[23:56:20] <gezr> just in time manufacturing
[23:56:21] <Jymmm> logistics
[23:56:28] <pfred1> oh
[23:56:45] <pfred1> a day late and a dollar short manufacturing
[23:56:49] <gezr> yeah
[23:57:22] <pfred1> remember if a TV was manufactured in the US it'd cost $10,000 and when you turned it on it'd explode!
[23:58:17] <gezr> Jymmm : to save on shipping costs, find a local msc or mcmaster rep to visit with for a while
[23:58:59] <Jymmm> Mcmaster is SO expensive... like the Macy's of machinery
[23:59:11] <pfred1> heh
[23:59:35] <gezr> im not talking about cost, im talking about where the shelf is
[23:59:45] <gezr> they are expensive cause they keep those things on the shelf