#emc | Logs for 2005-03-09

[00:01:49] <robin_sz> still trying to find a mug^H^H^Hbuyer for this CNC punch
[00:02:02] <robin_sz> plenty of laser interest though
[00:02:39] <pfred1> robin_sz lots of wanna be Dr. Evils running around who want sharks with fricking laser beams attached to their heads
[00:03:06] <robin_sz> yeah, but nothtat manysharks have 3 phase
[00:03:44] <nevyn> but smoke machines are what the people want.
[00:03:55] <robin_sz> hmm
[00:04:09] <pfred1> they should just get more friends that party plenty of smoke then
[00:04:11] <robin_sz> if you were in the UK, Id sell you some :)
[00:06:48] <robin_sz> yeahh ha! .. my mate put the punch on ebay
[00:06:56] <robin_sz> someoen has bid on it!!
[00:07:01] <robin_sz> this is great!!
[00:07:19] <robin_sz> working, its worth 1000
[00:07:30] <robin_sz> dead its worth nothing
[00:07:46] <robin_sz> and .. this idiot is going to pay us to have the fun of removing it!! awesome!!
[00:08:46] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40003&item=3879168726&rd=1
[00:09:43] <robin_sz> I *lurv* ebay
[00:10:04] <Jymmm> you'll make more on removal than the selling price too! lol
[00:10:17] <pfred1> eScam
[00:10:28] <robin_sz> well, removal we guessed at minimum 500 GBP
[00:10:43] <Jymmm> including disassembly?
[00:10:45] <robin_sz> we wont charge ema penny for removal ...
[00:10:51] <robin_sz> thats their problem
[00:11:04] <Jymmm> Hey $50/hr
[00:11:21] <robin_sz> it weighs at least 7 or 8 tonnes
[00:11:38] <robin_sz> http://i22.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/8e/13/4b_1_b.JPG
[00:11:40] <Jymmm> ok $1 per pound
[00:11:42] <robin_sz> see that?
[00:11:55] <robin_sz> thats a 1 gallon thinners can for scale
[00:12:09] <robin_sz> solid cast iron :)
[00:13:32] <Jymmm> 2nd posting of found wallet. No real response to it. I've done my good deed.
[00:13:39] <robin_sz> its mine!
[00:13:46] <robin_sz> does it have money in it?
[00:13:48] <Jymmm> rob_melb: descbrie it and contents
[00:14:00] <Jymmm> robin_sz : describe it and contents
[00:14:13] <Jymmm> robin_sz: I dun know, does it?
[00:14:14] <robin_sz> wallaet with money. then money is paper and .. umm
[00:14:20] <robin_sz> green?
[00:14:42] <robin_sz> just send the money, you can keep the wallet
[00:15:02] <robin_sz> I'm in the UK, I must have dropped it out of the window of the plane.
[00:15:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz settles back and waits for the money
[00:15:56] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Ok, it's on it's way. COD $28
[00:16:21] <robin_sz> ruh roh
[00:16:34] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Did you get it yet?
[00:16:57] <robin_sz> if it by chance has a nekkid picture of its owners GF, you could post it on the net to help people identify the owner
[00:17:49] <Jymmm> lol "Identify this person by presenting this person as seen here [nude photo] to claim faound wallet.
[00:18:00] <robin_sz> seems fair.
[00:18:13] <Jymmm> could be a scarry thing too
[00:18:31] <robin_sz> "well, yeah ... sure .. she looks a bit like the girl in the photo .."
[00:18:42] <robin_sz> "but I;d have ot see her naked to be sure .."
[00:18:47] <pfred1> could be a trannie!
[00:18:53] <robin_sz> eek!
[00:19:04] <Jymmm> less the dredlocks, the white skin, the penis, etc
[00:19:27] <pfred1> there's some awfully scary stuff running around out there
[00:19:39] <Jymmm> oh yeah, this is the SF Bay Area, we got those all over the place here.
[00:19:49] <pfred1> people so warped they make pretzels look straight!
[00:20:13] <Jymmm> oh when you get into TG's it gets REAL confusing.
[00:20:24] <pfred1> TG's?
[00:20:31] <Jymmm> TransGender's
[00:20:35] <Jymmm> TS/TV/TG
[00:21:13] <pfred1> yeah demand birth certificate at the bar
[00:21:23] <pfred1> hey it says here that you were born a ...
[00:21:32] <Jymmm> Was putting up a dating thing once, figured I'd be open minded about it and allow for TG, but dang the programming got bad and I said forget it.
[00:22:22] <pfred1> Jymmm I never knew you were so progressive in your lifestyle!
[00:22:37] <Jymmm> Man, Woman, Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, M2F4M, M2F4F, F2M4M, M2M4F
[00:24:01] <Jymmm> pfred1: I have tolerance for diversity, just not stupidity.
[00:25:07] <robin_sz> I have toelerance for diversity, but only if both chicks are hot!
[00:25:09] <pfred1> Jymmm lots mistake ignorance for stupidity and that's their own idiocy but me I'd rather not know
[00:25:48] <Jymmm> ignorance is fine
[00:25:53] <pfred1> I have tolerance for diversity long as they're blondes brunettes or redheads
[00:26:13] <robin_sz> ignorance is no excuse ...
[00:26:20] <robin_sz> thankfully its cureable
[00:26:22] <Jymmm> eh
[00:26:29] <robin_sz> with google image search :)
[00:27:03] <Jymmm> ppl are dumasses becasue they choose to be.
[00:27:16] <pfred1> yup
[00:27:18] <robin_sz> we did a project once to classify girls names
[00:27:20] <Jymmm> They know better and just dont care.
[00:27:25] <robin_sz> some names are plain and dull
[00:27:30] <robin_sz> some are hot
[00:27:32] <Jymmm> lisa = slut
[00:27:39] <robin_sz> we used a simple classifier
[00:27:45] <Jymmm> oh, not that kind of classicifctation
[00:27:54] <robin_sz> you type the name into google image search
[00:28:04] <robin_sz> and count the amount of nudity on the first page
[00:28:14] <robin_sz> obscene gets two points
[00:28:20] <robin_sz> nude gets 1 point ..]
[00:28:44] <Jymmm> does nude pencil sketchs count?
[00:29:19] <robin_sz> yeah .. 1 Ids say .. 1 for bikinis etc too
[00:29:30] <pfred1> what's bizarre rate?
[00:29:43] <robin_sz> christ knows .. 3?
[00:29:54] <Jymmm> Leah == 1 pt
[00:30:19] <robin_sz> lisa was 4
[00:30:29] <Jymmm> monica?
[00:32:49] <robin_sz> about 5
[00:35:35] <paul_c> http://images.google.com/images?q=miss+whiplash&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search
[00:35:37] <paul_c> http://members.aol.com/classiquefemme/s_m_g_6.jpg
[00:36:51] <robin_sz> buffy the vampire shagger?
[00:36:52] <pfred1> paul_c is that Buffy?
[00:36:57] <robin_sz> frightening.
[00:37:15] <pfred1> actually if it is sarah michelle geller she's OK
[00:37:28] <robin_sz> I think google must have cleaned up ... I remeber soem girls names scored 20+ when we did this a while ago
[00:37:43] <pfred1> yeah google is going down the tubes
[00:38:20] <robin_sz> hah
[00:39:58] <pfred1> man some stuff on the Internet is just too strange
[00:42:37] <paul_c> damnyoyRobin.... http://www.latexlounge.com/Fantasy/Images/Nun.jpg
[00:46:27] <pfred1> sure why not?
[01:05:46] <Jymmm> you should see the anime stuff... Now, that gets REAL weird
[01:06:54] <pfred1> yeah I've seen oh what's it called?
[01:06:57] <pfred1> there's a name for it
[01:07:27] <pfred1> hentai
[01:08:06] <Jymmm> Um, when you replace a mill, bit, whatever, how do you typically recalirbate the zro fo the z axis?
[01:08:58] <Jymmm> I havne't seen any plans/designs that have a switch/sensor for that.
[01:09:10] <cradek> Jymmm: I use a feeler gauge between the tool and workpiece
[01:09:50] <cradek> or, if setting a bunch of toolholders the same, I loosen the setscrew and drive the axis down until the work pushes the tool up.
[01:09:58] <Jymmm> oh, so no automated way then?
[01:10:37] <cradek> I can't picture any automated way it could be done...
[01:10:48] <Jymmm> optical?
[01:10:51] <nevyn> only if the mill was told about each tool.
[01:11:00] <pfred1> robot arm with a feeler gauge in it cmon!
[01:11:05] <cradek> haha
[01:11:14] <pfred1> you can't picture that?
[01:11:23] <Jymmm> kinky
[01:11:36] <cradek> pfred1: your imagination is better than mine.
[01:12:18] <cradek> Jymmm: I set 0 to be one chosen point on the top of the workpiece. If you have a machine 0 and use offsets, you could probably do something smarter.
[01:13:47] <Jymmm> Yeah, I just can't think of a sensor that would work for various tools.
[01:14:04] <pfred1> hmm I wonder why no one builds stuff out of fiberglass?
[01:14:16] <Jymmm> itchy scratchy
[01:14:59] <pfred1> nah not marine fiberglass
[01:15:34] <Jymmm> expensive
[01:15:37] <cradek> circuit boards are fiberglass and lots of people mill them
[01:15:45] <pfred1> heck I have to remember it for making CNC machine parts with
[01:16:08] <Jymmm> isn't the resin expensive and in two parts?
[01:16:22] <pfred1> heck you can get gallon and hardener for $12
[01:16:28] <pfred1> gallon goes long ways
[01:16:36] <pfred1> home depot
[01:16:45] <Jymmm> wouldn't know, dont do firebglass =)
[01:16:49] <pfred1> the mat and weave is pricier than i like it to be
[01:17:00] <pfred1> man if you ever did it's miracle stuff
[01:17:25] <pfred1> I've made fiberglass believers out of some people
[01:17:28] <Jymmm> but gawd aweful to sand down afterwords.... gets EVERYWHERE
[01:18:05] <pfred1> for rough sanding I use disc on angle grinder rips it up
[01:18:15] <pfred1> then fine i use a pneumatic DA
[01:19:02] <Jymmm> what kind of structrual strength does it have?
[01:19:17] <pfred1> they make boats out of the stuff
[01:19:23] <Jymmm> like wall paneling or more like sheet metal?
[01:19:25] <pfred1> boats take a pounding
[01:19:36] <Jymmm> but they have a frame to them as well.
[01:19:58] <pfred1> not commercial ones
[01:20:03] <pfred1> they're molded
[01:20:18] <Jymmm> how thick is the fiberglass wall though?
[01:20:32] <pfred1> depends
[01:20:35] <Jymmm> apx
[01:20:47] <Jymmm> .250 or 4" ?
[01:20:50] <pfred1> anywhere from 1/4 inch to an inch and a half
[01:21:26] <pfred1> glass is magic though and all you need to work with it is a brush and scissors
[01:21:29] <Jymmm> I wouldn't mind making a 12" x 12" x 36" box out of it
[01:21:43] <Jymmm> it it just wouldn't collapse
[01:21:51] <Jymmm> if
[01:22:11] <pfred1> thing to do is to find the glass itself at a reasonable price like by the roll
[01:22:14] <paul_c> Numerous cars are made from fiberglass
[01:22:15] <pfred1> the resin is cheap
[01:22:25] <pfred1> yes but cars made out of glass do have frames
[01:22:31] <paul_c> Not all
[01:22:40] <pfred1> and they don't take a pounding like a boat does
[01:22:57] <pfred1> look at fiberglass antennas
[01:23:00] <pfred1> how strong they are
[01:23:08] <paul_c> different loadings, but some points are under high loads
[01:23:10] <Jymmm> eh
[01:23:42] <Jymmm> * Jymmm has seen far too many SNAPPED fiberglass antennas
[01:23:44] <pfred1> I been in cars and boats boats impress me more for the terrain they traverse
[01:23:58] <pfred1> yeah but what'd it take to snap it?
[01:24:09] <Jymmm> not very much actually
[01:24:34] <pfred1> I've beat frogs out of palm trees with them
[01:24:36] <Jymmm> plus they're too flexiable
[01:24:42] <pfred1> I guess the ones I got better
[01:24:47] <paul_c> Gonna have to leave you guys...
[01:25:05] <Jymmm> hasta paul_c have a good flight
[01:25:09] <pfred1> nothing like a frog in a tree to keep you up all nite
[01:25:15] <Jymmm> lol
[01:25:21] <pfred1> reep rop!
[01:25:41] <Jymmm> water house seems easier
[01:25:45] <Jymmm> hose
[01:26:07] <pfred1> yeah I think that'd attract more frogs
[01:26:17] <pfred1> hey look here's a tree with running water!
[01:26:29] <Jymmm> like at the carnival exploding balloons with a squirt gun.
[01:26:40] <pfred1> eventually we resorted to bottle rocketting the tree
[01:26:50] <Jymmm> awwwwwwwwwwww
[01:26:58] <pfred1> hey man you gotta sleep ya know?
[01:27:23] <Jymmm> run em off, but dont hurt the lil guys
[01:27:38] <pfred1> man in frog season I guess you'd be housebound
[01:27:52] <pfred1> can't avoid running them over going anyplace
[01:28:15] <pfred1> it prety much rains frogs
[01:28:24] <Jymmm> Nah, just not into animal cruelty. If your hunting so be it, make it quick and as painless as possible.
[01:28:28] <pfred1> I never swerve to avoid snakes either
[01:28:45] <pfred1> they like running hoses over in the road
[01:28:51] <pfred1> bump bump
[01:29:39] <pfred1> I've seen snakes that take up the whole lane!
[01:30:22] <pfred1> heck for all I know they like getting run over maybe it's like a massage ot them?
[01:30:41] <Jymmm> I was able to slow down quick enough, but coulda hit a 6mo old brown bear cub that was on the road. I just laid on my horn long enough so he get well off the road so another car didn't hit him.
[01:30:56] <pfred1> yeah in Maine we almost creamed a family of black bears
[01:31:19] <pfred1> browm bears I never seen
[01:31:26] <pfred1> I hear they're pretty bad!
[01:31:28] <Jymmm> So Cal
[01:31:44] <Jymmm> Nah, there mellow enough.
[01:31:49] <Jymmm> they're
[01:32:24] <pfred1> yeah I'm thinking when I redo my gantry I may go with fiberglass though just to be different
[01:33:07] <Jymmm> pfred1: with resin or premade pieces milled down?
[01:33:22] <pfred1> resin
[01:33:34] <pfred1> lay it up custom shape
[01:33:45] <pfred1> do it like over a foam core form
[01:34:07] <pfred1> figure it has to be better than MDF
[01:34:23] <pfred1> be light and strong
[01:36:10] <pfred1> the robot arm discussion lead me to this page where he's talking about materials but he fails to mention fiberglass which got me to thinking
[01:58:03] <joe2000chevy> hello
[01:58:43] <joe2000chevy> ok guess i found an old 1.4 gig HDD will it work for BDI-EMC?
[02:02:32] <pfred1> joe2000chevy you can do better than that
[02:03:39] <joe2000chevy> :( no not right now
[02:04:06] <joe2000chevy> its a second drive in my system (Old Old Laptop hdd)
[02:04:29] <pfred1> joe2000chevy check out this classic I picked up at the dumps
[02:04:53] <joe2000chevy> damnit... LOL
[02:05:07] <pfred1> the front end loader had already pushed it around some
[02:05:09] <joe2000chevy> this is my third machine i'm using
[02:05:13] <pfred1> that's the scars in it
[02:05:36] <joe2000chevy> but work tho
[02:05:47] <pfred1> the system?
[02:05:55] <joe2000chevy> 1.4 gig big enought to run emc?
[02:06:00] <joe2000chevy> yea ur system
[02:06:11] <pfred1> oh i donno I haven't installed it in a while sounds smallish to me
[02:06:27] <pfred1> I think new EMC based on RH 7.2
[02:06:44] <pfred1> well the new BDI
[02:07:03] <joe2000chevy> well its a cd run also so should be big enought
[02:07:16] <pfred1> how much RAM?
[02:07:18] <nevyn> no..
[02:07:23] <nevyn> new bdi based on debian
[02:07:28] <nevyn> bdi-4 is anyway
[02:07:39] <pfred1> eww say it isn't so!
[02:07:39] <pfred1> debian sucks!
[02:07:54] <nevyn> and rh7.2 is so much better? it's ancient
[02:07:59] <pfred1> hate their package management system hate their politics
[02:08:04] <joe2000chevy> no BDI is delbial
[02:08:04] <joe2000chevy> delbian
[02:08:08] <nevyn> debian
[02:08:14] <nevyn> at least spell it correctly ;)
[02:08:18] <joe2000chevy> lol
[02:08:19] <pfred1> gawd guess I'll go with the rtai deal then
[02:08:37] <pfred1> debian is the freaking worst linux distro
[02:08:45] <nevyn> umm I LIKE debian.
[02:08:55] <pfred1> yeah no one said you were normal
[02:09:01] <nevyn> we can agree to disagree about this however.
[02:09:06] <pfred1> nevyn and that's comparing it to?
[02:09:43] <pfred1> nevyn like what other linux distributions have you used?
[02:09:57] <nevyn> rh 5 7.2 8
[02:10:06] <nevyn> did some admin on a suse box once
[02:10:16] <nevyn> installed mandrake for a few friends
[02:10:31] <pfred1> tell me about this suse admin
[02:10:36] <nevyn> and fedora core 1,2 havn't played with 3
[02:10:48] <pfred1> what version of suse?
[02:10:53] <nevyn> old one.
[02:10:57] <pfred1> and what was the adminning you did?
[02:10:59] <nevyn> probably 6
[02:11:12] <nevyn> umm something to do with apache. it was a while ago
[02:11:14] <pfred1> ah yes before my time with the distro not before my time with Linux though
[02:11:31] <nevyn> and I've deployed hundreds of debian systems
[02:11:39] <nevyn> potato -> woody and sid
[02:11:50] <pfred1> I've seen people do things wrong for 30 years what's your point?
[02:12:39] <pfred1> I donno I've run debian since before the movie came out and even the last time I tried it about a year ago it's still pretty horrible
[02:12:45] <nevyn> pfred1: look debian is nice and clean where redhat 7.2 has poor package tools (yum doesn't exist and is really memory intensive) up2date
[02:13:06] <nevyn> is no longer availible from redhat and you have to pay etc
[02:13:15] <pfred1> oh i wouldn't run 7.2 as a daily driver system
[02:13:53] <pfred1> but I'd take it over any debian I've ever seen
[02:14:11] <nevyn> I think the current bdi requires something like 4gb?
[02:14:20] <pfred1> yeah debian is a mess
[02:14:22] <nevyn> before the movie came out?
[02:14:33] <pfred1> nevyn Toy Story
[02:14:38] <nevyn> pfred1: there's a lot in that bdi install
[02:14:38] <nevyn> ah
[02:14:58] <pfred1> before the movie they couldn't very well name their releases after characters in it you know?
[02:15:09] <nevyn> debian is probably the most popular distribution in melbourne's linux community
[02:15:50] <pfred1> I been runing Linux 24/7 since 1995 and even I can't make heads or tails of Debian
[02:16:02] <nevyn> it's different to traditional unix
[02:16:10] <nevyn> there's a debian way of doing things.
[02:16:20] <pfred1> so I can't imagine how a person new to Linux would look at it
[02:16:26] <nevyn> this has advantages and disadvantages.
[02:16:30] <pfred1> yeah it's called obscure
[02:16:48] <pfred1> oh and politically correct
[02:17:16] <nevyn> the advantage is I can walk to any debian system and know the basics of how it hangs together without spending 4 hrs working out the maze of twisty scripts the previous admin wrote for 4 hrs
[02:17:26] <pfred1> I donno debian it's one of those htings like communism it sounds good on paper but fails in actual practice
[02:17:45] <nevyn> the disadvantage is there's a learning curve on it ;)
[02:18:17] <pfred1> the real disadvantage is after you've invested in learning you still just have Debian :)
[02:18:42] <nevyn> well we can disagree about that being an advantage or disadvantage.
[02:18:53] <pfred1> man debian is such low quality
[02:18:56] <nevyn> ?
[02:19:25] <pfred1> the last time i tried it the stable branch the damned sound drivers the way they had it all packaged up it couldn't have worked!
[02:19:30] <nevyn> the thing is debian is debian. whether it's on a embedded 386 or on a E10k it works just the same.
[02:19:32] <pfred1> and it didn't
[02:19:37] <nevyn> source drivers?
[02:19:42] <pfred1> sound
[02:19:46] <nevyn> sound drivers?
[02:19:56] <pfred1> you know the code in your PC to make the sound card work?
[02:20:06] <nevyn> pfred1: stable is a myth ;)
[02:20:12] <nevyn> nobody uses stable for a desktop system
[02:20:33] <pfred1> yeah seems like in Debian stable branch means the abandoned unmaintained branch
[02:20:41] <nevyn> no it's maintained.
[02:20:45] <nevyn> and security patched
[02:20:47] <pfred1> yeah well
[02:21:03] <nevyn> it just doesn't get any new releases of software.
[02:21:19] <pfred1> yup and the stuff that's packaged up with it doesn't work with each other
[02:21:28] <nevyn> umm yes they do.
[02:21:36] <pfred1> look
[02:21:39] <nevyn> that's in fact the point of stable.
[02:21:47] <nevyn> that you can do
[02:21:57] <nevyn> apt-get install apache php3
[02:22:02] <pfred1> I did extensive research into the problem I ran into and the versions that debian was shipping simply could not have worked together
[02:22:03] <nevyn> and start writing apache scripts.
[02:22:07] <nevyn> bleh php
[02:22:15] <nevyn> and start writing php scripts.
[02:22:43] <pfred1> I basically got to the bottom of what was going on
[02:22:45] <nevyn> mmm
[02:23:08] <pfred1> and concluded if that was the first thing I had to deal with better to bale than find the next monstrosity
[02:23:22] <pfred1> spend an hour everytime i want something to work no thanks!
[02:23:27] <nevyn> what was the problem out of interest?
[02:23:43] <pfred1> the alsa drivers on the stable didn't work with the module loader
[02:24:03] <pfred1> there was no way in hell the module loader could have loaded the drivers
[02:24:06] <nevyn> the alsa drivers didn't work with the module loader?
[02:24:10] <nevyn> wtf?
[02:24:21] <pfred1> the module loader was too old
[02:24:29] <nevyn> I have never ever seen such a situation with stable. hell I havn't seen such a situation with unstable
[02:24:49] <pfred1> yeah well I guess some of us are more demanding than others
[02:25:00] <nevyn> pfred1: so you installed kernel-image-blah and alsa-modules-blah and you couldn't modprobe snd_blah ?
[02:25:16] <pfred1> when something's put together so slipshod as Debian is I swerve to avoid
[02:25:30] <nevyn> did you use a shipped kernel or build your own?
[02:25:36] <pfred1> nevyn this was like 2 years ago but yeah I basically remember it couldn't load the modules
[02:25:56] <pfred1> I used all debian packages
[02:26:15] <pfred1> and spent at least 2 hours in the #debian channel on this network with it all
[02:26:20] <nevyn> if you built your own kernel then it's possible that stable didn't support the current kernel's module system this is true for woody
[02:26:27] <pfred1> and we all finally concluded that it simply could not work
[02:26:49] <pfred1> and yes the first thing out of everyone's mouth was use the unstable
[02:26:58] <pfred1> I don't run Linux for my system to be unstable
[02:27:11] <nevyn> unstable doesn't mean what you think it means
[02:27:13] <pfred1> or very well care just how stable unstable actually is
[02:27:27] <nevyn> unstable refers to packaging not software.
[02:27:34] <pfred1> nevyn how do yo uknow what i think? are yo uthe amazing Kreskin?
[02:27:52] <pfred1> yeah well if they can bork up stable I'd rather not know what unstable is
[02:28:00] <pfred1> on top of it even if it did all work Debian sucks
[02:28:12] <nevyn> how so?
[02:28:18] <nevyn> wfm
[02:28:21] <pfred1> it's amateurish
[02:28:25] <nevyn> ?
[02:28:58] <pfred1> Debian is great for someone who has nothing better to do than edit a script everytime they want something to work
[02:29:10] <pfred1> me i want ot go to a PC turn it on and it simply works
[02:29:30] <pfred1> and yes there are Linux distributions today that do just that
[02:29:53] <Jymmm> it's called MS-DOS 3.31
[02:29:58] <pfred1> and no I don't think Debian will EVER join those ranks
[02:29:58] <nevyn> there are. but I find them inflexible and they usually don't have the software I use.
[02:30:43] <pfred1> nevyn I have yet to run into a flexibility issue with the distribution I prefer over Debian
[02:30:55] <Jymmm> which is?
[02:30:59] <pfred1> SuSE
[02:31:09] <Jymmm> ah, never tried it
[02:31:11] <nevyn> oh and poorly constructed.
[02:31:26] <nevyn> SuSE has the maze of twisty simlinks all alike problem
[02:31:31] <pfred1> SuSE is about as poorly constructed as a Mercedes Benz
[02:31:46] <pfred1> typicak of them rotten Germans!
[02:31:51] <Jymmm> Personally, I think X86 needs to be trashed and something new to come along.
[02:31:52] <pfred1> typical even
[02:32:11] <nevyn> Jymmm: XFree86 needs to go yes
[02:32:37] <pfred1> suse is nothing short of unbelievable
[02:32:38] <pfred1> yast2 is amazing
[02:32:44] <Jymmm> Xfree is *SO* old and really hasn't evolved as I believe it should have.
[02:33:10] <pfred1> actually I believe suse is spearheading the new X
[02:33:15] <nevyn> Jymmm: there has been some movement on that recently with the xorg stuff but it's still flawed.
[02:33:39] <Jymmm> How can Apple dev a GUI for FBSD, and OS can't ?
[02:33:46] <Jymmm> OSS
[02:33:52] <nevyn> pfred1: interesting take a poll sometime of what distribution X developers use.
[02:33:58] <pfred1> Jymmm $
[02:34:22] <Jymmm> pfred1: I really don't think that's it.
[02:34:32] <nevyn> I know keith packard runs debian on his systems ;)
[02:34:40] <Jymmm> who?
[02:34:47] <nevyn> one of the core X types.
[02:34:48] <pfred1> Jymmm shame thoughts are so ethereal
[02:35:07] <pfred1> nevyn yeah well I'm not keith packard
[02:35:17] <pfred1> and furthermore i don't want to be keith packard
[02:35:33] <pfred1> I want ot walk up throw in a CD and go!
[02:35:39] <nevyn> no. but suse might be funding it but it's not what the X people use ;)
[02:35:45] <pfred1> and so does everyone else!
[02:35:49] <nevyn> pfred1: so do I . we just achieve it differently
[02:36:02] <nevyn> I have never had the sorts of issues you describe with debian.
[02:36:09] <nevyn> then I run sid almost exclusivly
[02:36:36] <Jymmm> I dont' know enough to run any *nix for a desktop.
[02:36:54] <pfred1> man i want to install new software i have a nice gui I simply check off a box hit OK and it's done
[02:37:06] <pfred1> none of this foul old CLI nonsense
[02:37:14] <nevyn> pfred1: so use synaptic
[02:37:16] <Jymmm> get an apple
[02:37:22] <pfred1> apt_get headaches
[02:37:41] <pfred1> nevyn yast2 is easier to type
[02:37:55] <nevyn> why are you typing just click it on the menu.
[02:38:08] <Jymmm> too slow
[02:38:24] <pfred1> nevyn that's how i actually start the app but it still proves a point that Debian again makes htings harder than they need to be
[02:39:06] <nevyn> pfred1: take a look at ubuntu sometime it's basically debian with a bigger base and gnome 2.8 and stuff I hated it.
[02:39:20] <pfred1> yeah I can't stand gnome
[02:39:28] <pfred1> another waste of effort project
[02:39:55] <nevyn> something we agree on.
[02:40:07] <pfred1> heck they can't evne beat the drum on the licensing issue anymore can they?
[02:40:12] <nevyn> gnome lost the plot with the whole "let's remove features"
[02:40:27] <nevyn> gnome's development direction is fundamentally flawed imo
[02:40:41] <pfred1> shame too because there's a lot of good apps for gnome it's just that gnome itself is a failure
[02:41:03] <nevyn> I use a few gnome apps. gaim most notably
[02:41:09] <pfred1> yup
[02:41:12] <pfred1> gaim rox!
[02:41:15] <nevyn> :)
[02:41:19] <pfred1> gnome sux
[02:41:21] <nevyn> as does jabber ;)
[02:41:34] <pfred1> there's a lot of great gnome apps
[02:41:46] <nevyn> jabber notifications for emc.
[02:41:47] <joe2000chevy> ok the hdd in in now
[02:41:48] <nevyn> I should write that.
[02:42:19] <nevyn> so it sends you an im if the machine stops runs out of material etc
[02:42:26] <pfred1> debian i believe proves that yes you do need to pay people to do the drudge work
[02:42:41] <nevyn> hrm
[02:43:08] <pfred1> because I swear i can install debian today and it's no better than it was 9 years ago!
[02:43:15] <nevyn> hrm
[02:43:26] <pfred1> and that is sad
[02:43:32] <pfred1> sure it's bigger
[02:43:38] <nevyn> when did you install debian last?
[02:43:45] <pfred1> bout 2 years ago
[02:43:59] <pfred1> maybe a year?
[02:44:08] <nevyn> woody?
[02:44:22] <pfred1> not even sure was stable all I can remember
[02:44:27] <pfred1> it lasted an afternoon
[02:44:46] <pfred1> when i finally got to the bottom of the whole alsa driver issue it was gone
[02:45:02] <pfred1> I found it all to be rather unnaceptable to me
[02:45:16] <pfred1> and the look and feel still blew so
[02:45:29] <pfred1> I wasn't going to spend 6 months fixing it up
[02:45:40] <nevyn> ok every other distro I've tried has had.. annoyances that were so irritating I went back to debian after a week or so.
[02:46:01] <Jymmm> You know one (primary) reason I don't have it as a desktop; The last two times I had BEGIN to use it I had HW failure and there was ZERo advanced warning. At least with M$ there are clues.
[02:46:11] <pfred1> I can install suse and pretty much hit the ground running for what i do
[02:46:20] <nevyn> mainly lack of software of software built without options I use.
[02:46:43] <pfred1> 9:50pm up 72 days 10:14, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
[02:46:54] <pfred1> I run Linux 24/7 as a desktop
[02:47:07] <nevyn> pfred1: I was doing things I do in about 20 minutes from a blank machine with debian
[02:47:26] <nevyn> 13:55:04 up 22 days, 23:06, 8 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
[02:47:42] <nevyn> that system is used by everyone in the house.
[02:48:17] <nevyn> my desktop get's turned off when I'm not using it just to reduce noise and power consumption
[02:48:39] <pfred1> well for me I don't want to learn about 3 different scripts in /etc just to get a file server running so I stick with SuSE til someone makes something I feel is better
[02:49:02] <nevyn> fine.
[02:49:19] <nevyn> so we're where I suggested we start we disagree but that's ok ;)
[02:49:33] <pfred1> and if debian is the best Linux has to offer it's no wonder marketshare is as low as it is
[02:50:00] <nevyn> best for me best for embedded imho but not best for everyone
[02:50:09] <pfred1> if Debian were a commercial product i sure as hell know I wouldn't want to be a salesman for it!
[02:50:43] <pfred1> it's like trying to sell a horse on crutches!
[02:50:54] <nevyn> debian isn't ment to be a commercial product it's a community distribution but it can be and is used as a basis for commercial distributions
[02:50:59] <nevyn> you ever used knoppix?
[02:51:13] <pfred1> nevyn nah i stopped playing distro of the week years ago
[02:52:01] <pfred1> but is knoppix the CD boot debian distro?
[02:52:12] <nevyn> it's a cd boot distro based on debian yes.
[02:52:22] <nevyn> but it's not debian.
[02:52:27] <pfred1> yes then I've heard about it
[02:53:57] <pfred1> I wish IBM would quit screwing around and pay off RMS and Linus and just own it all
[02:54:06] <nevyn> that's not going to happen.
[02:54:15] <nevyn> and it'd be bad if it did.
[02:54:17] <pfred1> heh it'd be cool if it did tho
[02:54:26] <nevyn> see something we disagree on.
[02:54:35] <nevyn> let's go back to bashing gnome ;)
[02:54:43] <pfred1> really it'd be the best hting for open source and Linux
[02:55:00] <pfred1> some direction is needed
[02:55:04] <nevyn> hrm.. maybe this is the difference
[02:55:24] <nevyn> I don't think IBM is in the best position to determine the future path of free software
[02:55:57] <nevyn> neither is SGI or SUN or NOVELL and this is infact what happened to gnome
[02:56:05] <pfred1> I abhor waste
[02:56:07] <nevyn> and we agree on what a success that's been
[02:56:31] <pfred1> I think gnome tanked themselves
[02:56:52] <pfred1> sure there may have been accomplices but they'd have done it on their own too
[02:57:05] <Jymmm> Do must CNC controller/drivers require the computer (as a buffer) or will be ok if data is just stremed to it?
[02:57:08] <nevyn> what happened to gnome is that Sun, IBM and Novell got involved in the 2.0 release and fucked it with HCI studies and made it useless.
[02:57:18] <pfred1> SuSE defaults to KDE
[02:57:18] <Jymmm> streamed
[02:57:35] <nevyn> Jymmm: ?
[02:57:52] <nevyn> my understanding is that the computer IS a CNC controller
[02:57:54] <pfred1> Jymmm you mean motor drivers?
[02:58:02] <Jymmm> nevyn: s/computer/ethernet print server/
[02:58:04] <nevyn> the driver is the the thing that runs the motor
[02:58:22] <nevyn> Jymmm: ok I don't think that will work
[02:58:25] <pfred1> Jymmm most parallel ports can't push out several amps in my experiences with them
[02:58:31] <nevyn> in fact I'm almost positive that won't work.
[02:58:44] <Jymmm> nevyn: damn =) Worht a shot =)
[02:59:15] <pfred1> nevyn drivers usually have step and direction inputs that don't care where the signals come from
[02:59:16] <Jymmm> WiFiCNC would been cool
[02:59:16] <nevyn> Jymmm: the computer is required for the precise timing. you'd need to run the rtos on the printserver
[02:59:33] <pfred1> nevyn you can drive it with a 555 IC
[02:59:35] <nevyn> pfred1: right but he won't get the required timing resolution on an ethernet printserver
[02:59:42] <nevyn> pfred1: sure.
[03:00:21] <pfred1> not evne if it caches the job?
[03:00:39] <pfred1> ethernet is pretty damned fast
[03:00:59] <nevyn> sure.
[03:01:14] <nevyn> but you don't get the low level control to the printserver that's required
[03:01:23] <nevyn> I'm pretty sure.
[03:01:45] <nevyn> it operates in a more streaming type manner
[03:02:06] <nevyn> you're introducing indeterminate timing into a realtime task.
[03:02:25] <nevyn> think about input for a minute
[03:02:37] <nevyn> so you hit an end sensor.
[03:02:54] <joe2000chevy> ok BDI is installing on the 1.4g HDD said about 925 meg.
[03:02:58] <nevyn> you now have to encode that into a ip packet deliver it over the ethernet decode the packet before you can stop sending move motor stuff.
[03:03:42] <nevyn> the problem is that this may take several hundred milliseconds
[03:07:14] <Jymmm> Hmmmm... collision issues too
[03:07:37] <nevyn> hundreds of milliseconds very BAD.
[03:07:38] <Jymmm> oh nm
[03:08:00] <nevyn> joe2000chevy: this is BDI 4? or BDI TNG?
[03:08:12] <Jymmm> would be cool though.
[03:08:15] <nevyn> or bdi-live?
[03:08:19] <nevyn> Jymmm: you see what I mean?
[03:08:56] <joe2000chevy> BDI 4.14
[03:16:27] <nevyn> hrm.
[03:20:44] <joe2000chevy> ?????
[03:20:56] <joe2000chevy> that is TNG?
[03:22:28] <nevyn> I thought so.
[03:22:51] <joe2000chevy> well?
[03:23:01] <nevyn> I'm still a little unclear about the versions availible tho
[03:23:01] <joe2000chevy> I do not know linux at all.
[03:23:28] <joe2000chevy> so i'm doing the BDI 4.14 emc it works good before
[03:23:40] <nevyn> sure.
[03:24:23] <joe2000chevy> ok you dont seem so sure??
[03:25:07] <nevyn> hrm
[03:25:37] <joe2000chevy> ok nevermind i will just do it
[03:25:40] <nevyn> as in sure what works for you :)
[03:25:52] <joe2000chevy> and get with paul or Anonimasu
[03:26:05] <jepler> BDI 4.xx are the newest versions of BDI. BDI-TNG refers to some older versions, and BDI-LIVE came between BDI-TNG and BDI 4.xx
[03:26:29] <nevyn> jepler: thanks.
[03:26:31] <joe2000chevy> ok thanks for the explination.....
[03:26:41] <joe2000chevy> i guess thats all that had to be said
[03:26:50] <joe2000chevy> so 4.14 it is
[03:26:54] <jepler> 4.14 is pretty new
[03:27:07] <nevyn> can someone with web access fix the docs :)
[03:27:11] <joe2000chevy> no diff except a few drivers in 4.18
[03:28:01] <joe2000chevy> i do not need xfree right
[03:29:26] <nevyn> not if you're going to use the keystick display
[03:29:38] <nevyn> if you want to use axis or tkemc then you do need it.
[03:29:48] <joe2000chevy> ok thanks
[03:30:04] <joe2000chevy> i will prob. use mini
[03:30:37] <joe2000chevy> dont know what the keystick display is
[03:32:07] <nevyn> mini requires X by the looks of it.
[03:32:34] <joe2000chevy> ok
[03:33:07] <nevyn> so you need xfree86 to use mini
[03:33:21] <nevyn> your other options include displaying remotely on windows if you're brave ;)
[03:33:43] <joe2000chevy> yes eventually thats what i want to do
[03:33:57] <joe2000chevy> i had it that way with xp to xp
[03:35:03] <joe2000chevy> the only reason i want to go back to emc is it made my cnc machine run smoother to me, i left it because of the file sharing and remote access.
[03:35:47] <joe2000chevy> so now this machine will be dual boot and while i'm figuring out linux atleast i can use the windows xp with the router
[03:35:49] <pfred1> XP
[03:35:57] <joe2000chevy> windows Xp
[03:36:02] <nevyn> file sharing?
[03:36:17] <pfred1> joe2000chevy what sort of a power supply do you have for your motors?
[03:36:23] <nevyn> as in being able to dump .nc files onto the controller machine?
[03:36:23] <joe2000chevy> yes, while i was installing now i see i needed to turn Samba on
[03:36:26] <joe2000chevy> 12v for now
[03:36:37] <joe2000chevy> run it at force 20
[03:36:39] <pfred1> joe2000chevy and what sort of port protection do you have?
[03:36:51] <joe2000chevy> none
[03:36:56] <pfred1> joe2000chevy yes but what exactly is the power supply? is it like a PC power supply?
[03:36:57] <jepler> AXIS 1.0 has just been released. chris and I spent the evening fixing a number of small bugs. http://axis.unpy.net/
[03:37:17] <nevyn> so are there circuits for converting step+direction to windings availible?
[03:37:18] <pfred1> joe2000chevy yeah stepper motors put out hella EM noise
[03:37:27] <nevyn> jepler: excellent.
[03:37:52] <joe2000chevy> and where is a port protector?
[03:37:54] <pfred1> joe2000chevy google optoisolator
[03:38:13] <joe2000chevy> i understand the feedback they can have
[03:38:19] <jepler> nevyn: cradek uses this board to take step+direction and run stepper windings: http://www.pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm
[03:38:21] <pfred1> joe2000chevy they're cheap I haven't designed a board yet but I will soon
[03:39:30] <pfred1> gawd L297 boards old skewl!
[03:40:07] <jepler> pfred1: which chip do you recommend?
[03:40:24] <pfred1> jepler the one on joe2000chevy's board looks pretty cool
[03:40:37] <pfred1> simple implementation
[03:40:47] <jepler> pfred1: I missed the URL
[03:40:56] <pfred1> I used basically the same chip without internal signal generation
[03:41:08] <pfred1> hmm I find it it's an allegro
[03:41:13] <pfred1> PWM
[03:41:29] <jepler> bipolar?
[03:41:34] <pfred1> jepler nope
[03:41:46] <jepler> l297+l298 = bipolar = good
[03:42:03] <pfred1> yeah if you have bipolar motors
[03:42:52] <pfred1> http://www.allegromicro.com/sf/97060/
[03:42:59] <pfred1> that's unipolar PWM
[03:43:24] <joe2000chevy> i think my hp motors are unipolar?
[03:43:43] <pfred1> well some unipolar motors you can still drive them bipolar
[03:43:56] <joe2000chevy> true, im my case also
[03:44:12] <joe2000chevy> from everything i have read
[03:44:14] <pfred1> but I'm not sure what it gets you over PWM
[03:44:52] <pfred1> the 297s are like regular transsistors if I remember correctly not mosfets
[03:45:06] <jepler> pfred1: with unipolar you only ever drive half of a given winding (from the center-tap to one of the ends). with bipolar you drive the whole winding
[03:46:11] <Jymmm> jepler: yeah?
[03:46:17] <jepler> pfred1: 297 is the controller, 298 is the H-bridge. I don't know about the transistors, but they are 46V supply, 3A peak
[03:46:20] <Jymmm> not end-to-end?
[03:46:52] <pfred1> yeah you can make your own H bridge
[03:47:05] <pfred1> thing is these modules it's cheaper
[03:47:22] <joe2000chevy> does anyone else have a remote setup with linux and say windows? other than Anonimasu?
[03:47:50] <jepler> l298 is not expensive. $4.17 qty 1 @ mouser
[03:48:10] <joe2000chevy> mouser is about an hour from me....
[03:48:32] <joe2000chevy> they are in Austin Texas, I'm in San Antonio
[03:52:36] <pfred1> jepler I meant it's cheaper to buy a module than to make everything out of individual components
[03:52:54] <jepler> pfred1: agreed.
[03:53:23] <jepler> pfred1: my own stepper driver board was built on ULN2803, sure beats having discrete transistors, base resistors, diodes... (L298 needs external diodes)
[03:53:32] <pfred1> and the things on the board joe2000chevy used are cool
[03:53:46] <jepler> (http://axis.unpy.net/index.cgi/etchcnc)
[03:53:58] <pfred1> they pretty much do it all you just give it reference voltage to set the current
[03:54:20] <jepler> yeah, l297/l298 you also set current with a reference voltage
[03:54:38] <jepler> no microstepping, though
[03:55:40] <jepler> goodnight all.
[03:55:59] <Jymmm> G'Night
[03:56:18] <pfred1> just that joe2000chevy should put some heatsinks onto his
[03:56:58] <nevyn> night jepler
[03:56:59] <joe2000chevy> i have a fan directly on them, i tought them after say an hour and they are not hot.
[03:57:29] <pfred1> joe2000chevy well just for them to get to their full rating they are designed to be heatsink mounted
[03:57:39] <pfred1> that's what the little holes on the corners are for
[03:58:27] <pfred1> and when yo udrive them higher voltage they may warm up a little more
[03:58:48] <joe2000chevy> yea, then i will need a heat sink
[03:59:03] <pfred1> joe2000chevy BTW so far from what I've seen my rewinding a microwave oven transformer has come out well
[03:59:08] <joe2000chevy> i will dremel some cpu heatsiks for it
[03:59:18] <pfred1> joe2000chevy keep your eyes peeled for a trashed microwave oven
[03:59:28] <pfred1> and grab it!
[03:59:33] <joe2000chevy> why?
[03:59:41] <pfred1> to make a powersupply out of
[03:59:53] <joe2000chevy> well hell i have one in the shed
[04:00:06] <pfred1> old microwave ovens have huge transformers in them!
[04:00:19] <pfred1> can output like 1200 watts
[04:01:08] <joe2000chevy> make a sample and post pics?, people like me know nothing about electronics., however if you need land developed or GPS surveying i can do that all day long... lol
[04:01:10] <pfred1> on my crappy rewind i was pulling over 5 amps and it was going well
[04:01:34] <pfred1> I want to rewind it again a little neater see if it helps out some
[04:02:23] <joe2000chevy> well crap i get an error on the cd now when i install it ....
[04:02:27] <pfred1> but even with my elcrappola rewind I'm pretty happy with how it works
[04:03:35] <pfred1> joe2000chevy one hting I will tell you microwave transformers will give you healthy respect for electronics
[04:03:53] <pfred1> them puppies like the back end of electric chairs!
[04:06:10] <pfred1> joe2000chevy wb
[04:11:00] <pfred1> joe2000chevy wb again
[04:12:44] <joe2000chevy> forgot to plug laptop in and it went into hybernation
[04:12:55] <pfred1> heh
[04:12:58] <pfred1> it's sleepy
[04:15:06] <joe2000chevy> i got an error on install
[04:15:17] <pfred1> danger will robinson danger!
[04:15:37] <nevyn> are there any linear steping motors ?
[04:15:46] <pfred1> I've heard of them
[04:15:52] <pfred1> I think medical uses them
[04:15:57] <nevyn> hrm lockings gonna suck unless it's huge.
[04:16:12] <joe2000chevy> The Package kghostview-3.2.3-1.1 can not be opened. This is due to missing file or perhaps a corrupt package.
[04:16:18] <pfred1> tho beware of steppers from medical equipment!
[04:16:25] <nevyn> oh?
[04:16:33] <pfred1> joe2000chevy you md5sum your CD image?
[04:16:55] <pfred1> BTW yo udon't really need kghostview
[04:18:19] <joe2000chevy> what??????
[04:18:41] <joe2000chevy> well the only diff in this install than last one is the samba i clicked it on
[04:19:08] <nevyn> hrm
[04:22:44] <joe2000chevy> how do i bypass this error?
[04:23:13] <pfred1> deselect the package
[04:23:21] <joe2000chevy> ?????????
[04:23:29] <joe2000chevy> damn linux... LOL
[04:23:45] <pfred1> damn debian not Linux
[04:23:52] <joe2000chevy> hahaha
[04:23:56] <nevyn> clean the cd :)
[04:24:08] <joe2000chevy> i did
[04:24:17] <joe2000chevy> its already clean
[04:24:19] <nevyn> if you didn't install xfree86 it should have remove kghostview anyway
[04:24:28] <joe2000chevy> i installed it
[04:24:35] <nevyn> ah
[04:27:46] <joe2000chevy> i'm burning a new cd now
[04:28:00] <joe2000chevy> maybe i can just put that one in and hit ok
[04:37:35] <pfred1> no freaking way SLA7052Ms are only $2.63 a piece?
[04:37:50] <pfred1> SLA7062Ms even
[04:38:07] <joe2000chevy> ?
[04:38:35] <pfred1> joe2000chevy the chips on your driver board
[04:38:44] <joe2000chevy> cheap?
[04:39:07] <pfred1> I'd say for that device that's very inexpensive
[04:39:17] <joe2000chevy> ok?
[04:39:40] <pfred1> SLA7060xM family is priced as follows: SLA7060M: $1.92, SLA7061M: $2.10, SLA7062M: $2.35.
[04:39:46] <joe2000chevy> well make a schematic and lets cut some boards... lol
[04:40:02] <pfred1> the schematic is in the datasheet
[04:40:52] <pfred1> on page 11
[04:42:22] <joe2000chevy> page 11 of?
[04:42:56] <pfred1> download the pdf link left hand side of this page http://www.allegromicro.com/sf/97060/
[04:43:06] <pfred1> that's what's on your board
[04:43:28] <pfred1> the thing that says Data Sheet (PDF)
[04:43:51] <pfred1> man i wanna see someone selling these in single units at that price
[04:44:13] <pfred1> I think thomas register is full of it that must be in 1000 unit quantities
[04:46:13] <pfred1> yeah newark want's $8.44 for one that's more reasonable
[04:46:24] <joe2000chevy> mouser?
[04:46:29] <joe2000chevy> digikey?
[04:46:56] <pfred1> Supply Voltage Min.: 10V
[04:47:04] <pfred1> and you're running at 12
[04:47:11] <pfred1> so you're just above the minimum
[04:47:23] <pfred1> if it starts to draw and drags it a little lower
[04:47:44] <joe2000chevy> mine is 12.14 i think
[04:47:45] <pfred1> well you can imagine it's like trying to run a car on water
[04:48:05] <pfred1> might not be as smooth as it could be
[04:48:07] <joe2000chevy> yea
[04:48:38] <pfred1> that and you really should buffer your parallel port
[04:48:58] <pfred1> because the best thing stepper motors make is line noise
[04:49:35] <pfred1> and computers don't dig line noise at all
[04:50:00] <joe2000chevy> well what do i get?
[04:50:19] <pfred1> well there are commercial solutions
[04:50:36] <pfred1> but you should just read up on what an optoisolator is
[04:50:41] <pfred1> an 89 cent chip
[04:50:54] <pfred1> and how it may be able to help you!
[04:51:10] <joe2000chevy> ok
[04:51:24] <pfred1> basically it's a row of emitters and detectors
[04:51:34] <pfred1> electrically isolated from each other
[04:51:41] <pfred1> but you can still transfer data
[04:51:54] <pfred1> you can see how that cen be of help right?
[04:53:02] <pfred1> save your parallel port from any blunders that you may inflict upon it
[04:55:01] <pfred1> * pfred1 warms up the TV for The X Files ...
[06:52:23] <Jymmm> "warm up the tv" as in tubes?
[06:52:29] <Jymmm> as in B&W?
[07:26:18] <nevyn> hrm I just recieved a letter.
[07:26:24] <nevyn> "you have been selected ....
[07:26:46] <nevyn> the thing is it's printed on a inkjet and claims to be from spain
[07:29:00] <Jymmm> nevyn: hurry up and send the check it asks for, I need the money.
[07:35:44] <anonimasu> good morning
[07:37:02] <nevyn> heh
[07:37:06] <anonimasu> hm..
[07:37:20] <anonimasu> although I dont know if it's good yet
[07:37:59] <nevyn> Jymmm: it doesn't ask for a cheque
[07:38:13] <nevyn> so the question is have these people committed an actual offence?
[07:38:54] <nevyn> I know in the states this is mail fraud. but crossing juristictions probably makes it un fixable.
[07:39:02] <nevyn> there's a bunch of reports.
[07:41:29] <anonimasu> nevyn: why do you bother with it..
[07:41:38] <anonimasu> they usually leave you alone if you ignore the messages they send..
[07:41:41] <Jymmm> nevyn: CNC Shredder
[07:42:05] <Jymmm> turn the letter into snowflakes =)
[07:42:42] <anonimasu> hm, I need to write this rotary encoder routine at work anyway.. so I have my jog wheel code for the plc done ;)
[07:44:05] <nevyn> anonimasu: this is my first one that's a real piece of paper...
[07:44:12] <nevyn> I've only seen emails up to now
[08:04:51] <anonimasu> we get loads of thoose at work.. whatever you do dont send it back.. :)
[08:05:31] <anonimasu> bbl.. going to work now
[08:07:30] <an0n> an0n is now known as anonimasu
[08:19:42] <nevyn> anonimasu: duh.
[08:19:45] <nevyn> :)
[08:30:43] <A-L-P-H-A> mornging
[08:30:45] <A-L-P-H-A> morning
[08:59:38] <anonimasu> hello
[09:12:35] <anonimasu> * anonimasu Yawns more
[09:35:17] <anonimasu> morning paul
[09:38:44] <paul_c> Morning anonimasu
[09:45:38] <anonimasu> how's it going?
[09:45:57] <paul_c> just booting up the other boxes...
[09:46:07] <anonimasu> ok
[09:46:33] <anonimasu> I am working some on my jogwheel program..
[09:46:59] <anonimasu> but it's going slowly since I am trying to work at the same time
[09:57:33] <anonimasu> :)
[10:01:39] <nevyn> hi paul_c
[10:02:08] <paul_c> Morning
[10:39:32] <alex_joni> morning
[10:40:03] <nevyn> I found a free (gpl) cad/cam system
[10:40:39] <nevyn> 2d only tho :(
[10:40:48] <nevyn> sagcad
[10:42:25] <alex_joni> nevyn: right
[10:42:43] <alex_joni> you can take a look at brlcad (only CAD so far)
[10:42:46] <nevyn> but 2d will do for my current project
[10:42:55] <nevyn> is that the blender based one?
[10:43:07] <alex_joni> it's the GPL one ;)
[10:43:26] <alex_joni> ask narnia .. he's one of the developers
[10:49:10] <narnia> ask me what?
[10:50:18] <narnia> knock, knock, anyone home?
[10:50:18] <alex_joni> about brlcad
[10:50:24] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is on and off
[10:53:25] <nevyn> hrm
[10:53:30] <paul_c> Now this is f@'&.... ridiculous.... Find a motel, a central booking site.... Is the one I find bookable on line...
[10:53:33] <nevyn> I'm currently looking for a 3d cad system
[10:53:48] <nevyn> narnia: hwo useable is brlcad?
[10:56:21] <narnia> brlcad is very usable. there are over 20 yrs of development in brl-cad.
[10:57:12] <narnia> brlcad has been around for a long time. it just recently became opensource in january 2005.
[11:42:10] <robin_sz> nevyn: have a look at http://www.webersys.com/
[11:42:57] <robin_sz> nevyn: and if you need more info try prodding websys on this channel ;)
[11:46:20] <alex_joni> worked for me ;)
[11:46:28] <alex_joni> robin: how do you find the 2D stuff ?
[11:48:08] <robin_sz> alex_joni: undecided :)
[11:48:37] <alex_joni> lol
[11:48:41] <alex_joni> *g*
[11:48:54] <robin_sz> the decision is not as easy as it seems
[11:49:06] <robin_sz> for plasma/2d I have three areas
[11:49:11] <alex_joni> that's not a bad thing ;)
[11:49:15] <robin_sz> 1) shape generation (cad)
[11:49:25] <alex_joni> at least it's not a big disappointment ;)
[11:49:27] <robin_sz> 2) nesting / path prepartion
[11:49:32] <alex_joni> I kina liked the way it behaves
[11:49:34] <robin_sz> 3) machine control
[11:49:34] <alex_joni> kinds
[11:49:36] <alex_joni> kinda
[11:49:42] <alex_joni> darn... these typos
[11:49:44] <robin_sz> yeah, I have no real problem with it ...
[11:49:51] <narnia> argh, that is why i was getting spammed by webersys.com. argh
[11:50:03] <robin_sz> seems fine for cad and the cam works
[11:50:12] <alex_joni> right
[11:50:24] <alex_joni> a bit expensive though
[11:50:29] <robin_sz> i do think for 2d nesting there are better options though
[11:50:49] <robin_sz> the other question is really which bits to join together
[11:50:56] <robin_sz> cad and cam?
[11:51:09] <robin_sz> cam and control?
[11:51:12] <alex_joni> cad, cam, cae
[11:51:20] <alex_joni> cat too
[11:51:23] <robin_sz> Im leaning towards keeping the cam seperate
[11:51:27] <alex_joni> or how the testing is called
[11:51:43] <robin_sz> cad seerate I meant
[11:51:48] <alex_joni> cad yes
[11:52:01] <alex_joni> cam & cae could go together (in an ideal system)
[11:52:03] <robin_sz> so multiple cad front ends, whatver the user is most comforatble with
[11:52:18] <robin_sz> then a combined nesting and machine control thng
[11:52:30] <alex_joni> autonesting ;)
[11:52:35] <robin_sz> no
[11:52:39] <robin_sz> manual nesting
[11:52:39] <alex_joni> yes
[11:52:46] <alex_joni> as an option ;)
[11:52:49] <robin_sz> autonesting isnt worth the effort usually
[11:53:03] <robin_sz> except in very high productivity applications
[11:53:04] <alex_joni> but I really don't see why it's hard to do
[11:53:16] <robin_sz> its hard to do better than a human
[11:53:20] <alex_joni> if you do autonesting with certain rules...
[11:53:32] <alex_joni> to take care of warming of the plates & such
[11:53:36] <alex_joni> well.. then it's hard ;)
[11:53:40] <alex_joni> but not impossible
[11:53:47] <robin_sz> by very careful manipulaion I can always beat the autonester
[11:54:07] <alex_joni> depends on the number of parts you wanna cut
[11:54:11] <robin_sz> yeah
[11:54:17] <robin_sz> bayoff is I think ...
[11:54:20] <robin_sz> payoff
[11:54:27] <robin_sz> use "block" nesting
[11:54:35] <robin_sz> just a rectangle around the part
[11:54:47] <robin_sz> for large numbers of parts
[11:55:04] <robin_sz> manual nesting for complex shapes
[11:55:42] <robin_sz> whatever, im happy just with drag and place nesting
[11:55:56] <robin_sz> alex_joni: had a look at sheetcam yet?
[11:56:59] <alex_joni> some time ago
[11:57:04] <robin_sz> its got better
[11:57:13] <robin_sz> auto internal and external contours
[11:57:18] <alex_joni> I think 2 months ago
[11:57:21] <robin_sz> k
[11:57:24] <alex_joni> cool.... nice to hear that
[11:57:35] <alex_joni> you know what I would find ideal for nesting?
[11:57:44] <robin_sz> twigs?
[11:57:50] <alex_joni> the same procedure schematics editors do
[11:57:53] <alex_joni> open a part
[11:58:01] <alex_joni> then click on the sheet where you want to place it
[11:58:12] <alex_joni> press R to rotate it before placing it down
[11:58:31] <alex_joni> maybe only predefined angles (15,30,45,60,etc)
[11:58:39] <robin_sz> I prefer to construct a job list of all the bits i need first
[11:58:41] <alex_joni> or scroll wheel to rotate it
[11:58:45] <robin_sz> exactly
[11:58:54] <alex_joni> that would be super easy to use
[11:59:00] <robin_sz> you should try turbonest from MTC
[11:59:02] <alex_joni> you'll fill a sheet in no time
[11:59:09] <robin_sz> it does exactly that
[11:59:24] <robin_sz> plus you can buy autonesting as an add-on
[11:59:32] <alex_joni> yup: no reason others haven't thought of it
[11:59:56] <robin_sz> seriously, if you have customers wanting nesting .. do consdier turbonest
[11:59:56] <alex_joni> I can only wonder how bad my grammar is today :D
[12:00:34] <alex_joni> I gave it some thought to use synergy for my robots
[12:00:45] <alex_joni> but I gave up (only 5 axes)
[12:00:56] <robin_sz> heh
[12:01:07] <robin_sz> robot programmng is complex then
[12:01:51] <alex_joni> well.. 6 axes is basic ;)
[12:01:58] <alex_joni> the controller takes up to 18 axes
[12:02:20] <alex_joni> I've seen systems (built by cloos) with 4 synchronized robots (plus external axes)
[12:02:29] <alex_joni> that's a hell of programming :D
[12:03:15] <alex_joni> but programming is usually simple (teach-in)
[12:10:21] <robin_sz> right
[12:33:24] <A-L-P-H-A> know what I want to make... a RC helicopter.
[12:37:26] <alex_joni> alpha: I got smthg for you ;)
[12:37:34] <alex_joni> I looked into this some time ago
[12:37:48] <alex_joni> there is a flying object (with 4 propellers)
[12:37:51] <alex_joni> on a frame
[12:38:01] <alex_joni> you can controll it better than a helicopter
[12:40:51] <A-L-P-H-A> dragonflyer
[12:40:53] <A-L-P-H-A> I know those.
[12:41:02] <A-L-P-H-A> easier to fly too.
[12:41:13] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm just really interested in the swashplate.
[12:41:21] <A-L-P-H-A> just looks like something I could make with relative ease
[12:41:28] <alex_joni> but you need some nice gyros
[12:41:33] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[12:41:43] <A-L-P-H-A> those I can order online, or from digikey. not sure which is cheaper.
[12:41:46] <alex_joni> a bunch of them ;)
[12:41:53] <A-L-P-H-A> thought I only needed 1
[12:41:59] <A-L-P-H-A> 1 three axis one
[12:42:04] <alex_joni> yes
[12:42:10] <alex_joni> or 3 sepparate ones
[12:42:13] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[12:42:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I think a 3axis one is like $90CDN.
[12:43:07] <A-L-P-H-A> too expensive of a hobby. When I have money, maybe I'll do it.
[12:43:10] <A-L-P-H-A> I NEED MORE MONEY!
[12:43:27] <alex_joni> always...
[12:43:30] <alex_joni> *g*
[12:45:57] <A-L-P-H-A> gonna buy a nice chuck today. :D
[12:46:24] <A-L-P-H-A> YEAH! the price dropped!
[12:46:45] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.albrechtchucks.com/chuck_template.cfm?&product=yes&subheader=category_classic_keyless_drill_chucks&chuck_category_id=5#prices_18 the C30-J1
[13:00:51] <anonimasu> hello
[13:00:53] <anonimasu> :)
[13:01:25] <anonimasu> I got rotary encoders now
[13:01:49] <alex_joni> hello an0n
[13:02:03] <paul_c> * paul_c is getting p***d off with hotels in the DC area....
[13:02:18] <alex_joni> paul_c: it's US.. so it's explainable
[13:02:19] <alex_joni> :D
[13:02:31] <paul_c> I only want one room, not the whole flippen building...
[13:02:36] <alex_joni> lol
[13:02:42] <alex_joni> get a penthouse
[13:02:49] <anonimasu> haha
[13:02:53] <paul_c> $180 - That is taking the p...
[13:03:12] <alex_joni> and get a bridgeport up there
[13:03:35] <alex_joni> don't know how you'll stuff that into the elevator... but it'll fit eventually
[13:03:58] <anonimasu> heh.. you can always mill a recess to make it fit
[13:04:19] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hands paul_c a plasma cutter.. just in case
[13:04:45] <anonimasu> now I just need to find out how to wire theese encoders..
[13:04:46] <anonimasu> :)
[13:05:03] <paul_c> Does it say AK47 on the side ?
[13:05:04] <alex_joni> the green wire goes to ground (seen that in the movies)
[13:05:13] <anonimasu> :D
[13:05:15] <alex_joni> paul_c: lemme check
[13:05:21] <paul_c> cut the blue one - Always the blue one.
[13:05:22] <anonimasu> haha
[13:05:35] <alex_joni> nope.. this one says M16 (I think it's the hole diameter it cuts)
[13:05:40] <alex_joni> lol
[13:05:51] <anonimasu> haha
[13:05:57] <alex_joni> an0n: DON'T touch the red one
[13:05:59] <paul_c> dinner time.
[13:06:03] <alex_joni> enjoy
[13:06:12] <anonimasu> alex_joni: I am building somthing not taking it apart ;)
[13:06:16] <alex_joni> right
[13:06:24] <alex_joni> still.... DON'T touch the red one
[13:07:06] <anonimasu> haha :)
[13:07:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu makes a mental not not to touch the red one
[13:07:28] <alex_joni> right ;)
[13:07:36] <alex_joni> what do you want to connect it to?
[13:07:48] <anonimasu> a plc..
[13:08:12] <alex_joni> hmm.. does it have quadrature encoder inputs?
[13:08:18] <anonimasu> nope ;)
[13:08:21] <alex_joni> ouch
[13:08:24] <alex_joni> counters?
[13:08:27] <anonimasu> yes..
[13:08:32] <anonimasu> but this is a 20 ppr encoder..
[13:08:40] <alex_joni> ok.. how many, how fast?
[13:08:42] <anonimasu> jog wheel/feed override..
[13:08:45] <alex_joni> right
[13:08:51] <alex_joni> is it quadrature?
[13:08:55] <anonimasu> nope..
[13:08:59] <alex_joni> then?
[13:09:12] <anonimasu> I dont know.. what it is really..
[13:09:22] <anonimasu> I've got the code for it in the plc written already..
[13:09:23] <alex_joni> how are the lines named?
[13:09:42] <anonimasu> nothing
[13:09:42] <alex_joni> does it have: Vcc, Gnd, A, B ?
[13:09:46] <anonimasu> nope..
[13:09:56] <alex_joni> how many wires?
[13:09:59] <anonimasu> 3
[13:10:06] <anonimasu> ine in 1 pulse out and one dir out..
[13:10:07] <alex_joni> then it's easy
[13:10:08] <anonimasu> I think
[13:10:13] <alex_joni> nah
[13:10:19] <alex_joni> 1 is Vcc, 1 is Gnd
[13:10:22] <alex_joni> 1 is signal
[13:10:43] <anonimasu> it has a dir signal somwhere..
[13:10:46] <alex_joni> doesn't make a lot of sense to build such an encoder though
[13:10:47] <anonimasu> :)
[13:11:01] <alex_joni> maybe the signal is +/- ?
[13:11:08] <anonimasu> it's for using as volume control.. or somthing like that..
[13:11:21] <anonimasu> feed override at my mill/jog..
[13:11:41] <alex_joni> hmmm.. maybe it's got serial connection
[13:11:44] <alex_joni> I2C ?
[13:11:47] <alex_joni> smthg like that
[13:11:50] <alex_joni> those usually have
[13:11:53] <anonimasu> no, this is a simple encoder.. :)
[13:12:02] <anonimasu> http://www.elfa.se/pdf/35/03584604.pdf
[13:12:10] <anonimasu> 7$
[13:12:21] <anonimasu> in single piece quantities..
[13:12:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni checks
[13:13:31] <anonimasu> lol I found the schematic of it..
[13:13:38] <anonimasu> laggy box + acrobat
[13:13:58] <anonimasu> page 56
[13:14:00] <anonimasu> err 6..
[13:15:41] <alex_joni> told you it's quadrature
[13:15:42] <alex_joni> A/B
[13:15:53] <anonimasu> yeah..
[13:16:51] <anonimasu> ado you think 20 ppr will be too little to be useful?
[13:17:15] <alex_joni> nah.. depends on the speed
[13:17:34] <alex_joni> if you mount it on the spindle (@ 5k rpm) it's OK
[13:17:40] <anonimasu> I'll interpolate it in software anyway for faster feeds to get smooth action..
[13:17:46] <anonimasu> it's a jog wheel..
[13:17:47] <anonimasu> :)
[13:18:08] <anonimasu> or wheel for feed override/things..
[13:18:21] <anonimasu> the one I have has a pushbutton switch integrated..
[13:18:58] <alex_joni> yup
[13:19:03] <alex_joni> seen that (on line C)
[13:19:44] <anonimasu> I'll get a better one if it sucks..
[13:20:05] <anonimasu> but for controlling a ui.. it seems like a nice deal..
[13:20:16] <anonimasu> push scroll through functions.. push again to select..
[13:20:17] <alex_joni> try www.scancon.dk :)
[13:20:42] <anonimasu> good prices?
[13:20:45] <alex_joni> greetings rayh
[13:20:48] <alex_joni> an0n: no ideea ;)
[13:20:51] <alex_joni> but nice products
[13:20:56] <rayh> Hi Alex, anon.
[13:20:57] <alex_joni> let me know if the prices are ok
[13:21:07] <paul_c> Hi Ray.
[13:21:18] <alex_joni> an0n: should be near from you
[13:21:33] <rayh> Hi Paul. Just sent you a note re a little gcode that trashes 4.14
[13:21:43] <anonimasu> they dont have any prices on the web..
[13:21:44] <anonimasu> :)
[13:22:10] <anonimasu> alex_joni: like 2000sek.. 289$
[13:22:22] <anonimasu> that's the usual price for enclosed encoders like that..
[13:22:26] <anonimasu> the 200ppr ones..
[13:22:32] <alex_joni> 20000
[13:22:41] <alex_joni> you mean
[13:22:45] <anonimasu> nope..
[13:22:50] <alex_joni> 200?
[13:22:53] <anonimasu> yes..
[13:22:54] <alex_joni> too much
[13:22:58] <alex_joni> 1500 is pretty standard
[13:23:01] <anonimasu> I am being serious..
[13:23:05] <alex_joni> @ 2-300EUR
[13:23:11] <anonimasu> thoose are industrial ones..
[13:23:15] <anonimasu> enclodes..
[13:23:19] <anonimasu> enclosed..
[13:23:29] <alex_joni> yes
[13:23:30] <anonimasu> they are super expensive..
[13:23:41] <alex_joni> industrial enclosed (IP54? iirc)
[13:23:50] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:24:09] <anonimasu> wait i'll get you a price off my dealer
[13:25:13] <paul_c> rayh: Got it... Must admit, not used or debugged canned cycles.
[13:26:44] <nevyn> * nevyn kicks linux
[13:26:56] <nevyn> reading slower than writing
[13:27:11] <rayh> Hi nevyn.
[13:27:46] <rayh> Got a minute or two for a graphical toolkit talk?
[13:27:56] <nevyn> sure.
[13:28:33] <anonimasu> alex_joni: http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/dyndok.pl?dok=2431.htm
[13:29:33] <nevyn> chuckie 1G 7736 97 58994 61 18209 34 8585 98 47200 45 170.3 2
[13:29:33] <nevyn> chuckie,1G,7736,97,58994,61,18209,34,8585,98,47200,45,170.3,2,16,3051,92,+++++,+++,3298,93,2873,93,+++++,+++,2651,84
[13:29:36] <nevyn> chuckie 1G 6168 79 5353 7 2695 4 5532 63 7456 6 87.6 0
[13:29:39] <nevyn> chuckie,1G,6168,79,5353,7,2695,4,5532,63,7456,6,87.6,0,16,493,93,+++++,+++,21124,82,452,88,+++++,+++,1718,82
[13:30:05] <nevyn> hrm oops that should have been two lines but anyway.
[13:30:28] <nevyn> the first is the 200gb ata133 disk on the ata66 controller
[13:31:48] <alex_joni> who's chuckie ?
[13:31:55] <rayh> * rayh confesses that he knows very little about C and less about C++
[13:31:56] <nevyn> the name of the box.
[13:32:28] <nevyn> anyway the point is that that 58994 is writing to the 200gb disk and the 47200 is reading from it.
[13:32:37] <anonimasu> hm this foldable keyb is yucky..
[13:32:37] <rayh> No doubt named after that lovable film character?
[13:32:41] <nevyn> now that means reads are slower than writes. which is just wrong.
[13:32:48] <anonimasu> ^_^
[13:32:48] <nevyn> rayh: rugrats
[13:33:09] <anonimasu> it'll see good use in the shop..
[13:33:10] <anonimasu> :)
[13:33:31] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders what that's got to do with gtt
[13:34:12] <rayh> I have qt-designer and can rather easily build displays
[13:34:38] <nevyn> mmmmm
[13:34:44] <rayh> I've used tickle with EMC because with it I can also hook to emc
[13:35:06] <rayh> through emcsh and iosh and can write the rather primitive tcl required
[13:35:19] <rayh> to update displays and issue commands.
[13:35:57] <anonimasu> hm
[13:36:00] <anonimasu> just a question
[13:36:09] <anonimasu> is the tcl interface faster then the c++ one?
[13:36:13] <anonimasu> err c/c++
[13:36:15] <anonimasu> or whatever is it
[13:36:26] <rayh> No it is much slower.
[13:36:49] <rayh> There are ways we can speed things a bit but not a lot with the interpreted nature of the lang.
[13:37:12] <anonimasu> well I need another box for running the ui on :)
[13:37:26] <rayh> * rayh is open to suggestions from all here so feel free to jump on it.
[13:37:38] <anonimasu> I think I might get a computer with HT later on..
[13:37:44] <alex_joni> * alex_joni suggests java.. then runs for his life
[13:37:46] <anonimasu> get/buy..
[13:38:00] <anonimasu> and put X on a own proc..
[13:38:15] <anonimasu> how much does a think client cost?
[13:38:22] <rayh> Matt Shaver wrote a primitive java interface. Will likes Java a lot.
[13:38:43] <robin_sz> rayh: I know you can easily draw stuf in Qt to look pretty, how have you got on hooking it up to emc?
[13:39:04] <rayh> Therein lies the rub.
[13:39:11] <robin_sz> * robin_sz likes java a bit, if its written nice
[13:39:13] <robin_sz> ahh
[13:39:22] <alex_joni> I don't really like java.. too slow
[13:39:27] <nevyn> I like java except for the whole proprietary thing about it.
[13:39:30] <robin_sz> so youve not mastered the world of slots and signals then?
[13:39:31] <rayh> I don't even know how to change the forground color of a widget once I've drawn it.
[13:39:39] <robin_sz> ahh.
[13:39:39] <alex_joni> Qt with c++ hooks easily to NML
[13:39:40] <nevyn> but it's quite elegant as a language.
[13:40:01] <robin_sz> alex_joni: its not that slow .. its beaten C in some tests
[13:40:13] <alex_joni> well.. it's slow for me :D
[13:40:21] <rayh> At this point, I'll take your word for the "easy" but I suspect the difficult part will be
[13:40:28] <rayh> teaching me how to do it.
[13:40:34] <nevyn> alex_joni: java init is slow in everything pre 1.5
[13:40:37] <robin_sz> alex_joni: dont confuse "java web applets" with java
[13:40:38] <alex_joni> rayh: you got a deal
[13:40:42] <nevyn> swing still kinda looks like ass on linux
[13:40:49] <alex_joni> robin: I'm talking about java
[13:40:51] <nevyn> awt looks like ass everywhere.
[13:40:52] <alex_joni> .class
[13:41:03] <alex_joni> rayh: same goes for GTK
[13:41:12] <alex_joni> or other toolkits c++ based
[13:41:35] <robin_sz> Qt is multi-platform quite easily, that appeals
[13:41:58] <nevyn> oh.. SWING has BUGS.. lots and lots of them
[13:42:03] <rayh> Mini is 3k+ lines of code.
[13:42:06] <nevyn> and they're irritating stupid things.
[13:42:21] <robin_sz> I think a 'doze based GUI for a hidden behind the machine linux based emc is appealing
[13:42:28] <rayh> That is about the upper limit of what I can get my head around on a good day.
[13:42:45] <rayh> Will C++ and the QT toolkit be more compact.
[13:42:56] <nevyn> rayh: probably more verbose.
[13:43:01] <robin_sz> ahh, thats where namespaces and the like come in. 3k in one file is WAY too big
[13:43:06] <rayh> Now I can use the designer easily. It is very like a similar designer I use for tk.
[13:43:26] <nevyn> rayh: but it'd be lots of files and little blobs of <400 lines with 50 or so line methods
[13:43:51] <nevyn> 50 line methods are about as big as you want to make.
[13:44:01] <robin_sz> here is wisdom; ANY function or procedur that wont fit on a single page is TOO LONG.
[13:44:05] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ndos
[13:44:23] <robin_sz> if its more than a page, you need to refactor
[13:44:55] <alex_joni> * alex_joni remembers hunting through emcmot.c
[13:45:05] <alex_joni> way more than a page for a function ;)
[13:45:06] <robin_sz> heh
[13:45:06] <rayh> * rayh 's stomach begins to knot up.
[13:45:12] <robin_sz> :)
[13:45:18] <nevyn> robin_sz: look I agree but two pages is the absolute outside limit.
[13:45:26] <alex_joni> right
[13:45:39] <nevyn> and sometimes you do need one or two 50 line methods in a program
[13:45:47] <nevyn> but most should be less than 25lines at 80 cols
[13:45:47] <alex_joni> * alex_joni also remembers digging deep in RCSLIB too... that was less appealing
[13:46:01] <alex_joni> nevyn: seen some 1-line programs
[13:46:02] <alex_joni> :D
[13:46:03] <rayh> * rayh wonders what a method is?
[13:46:11] <alex_joni> a method is a function
[13:46:14] <robin_sz> you can get away with long stuff, but not for long .. and its a bugger to maintain. by the time you get to 3K lines, well its going to get hard
[13:46:20] <nevyn> rayh: object oriented programming
[13:46:23] <alex_joni> rayh: member of a class
[13:46:24] <rayh> I saw a three page doctoral dissertation once!
[13:46:30] <alex_joni> rayh: lol
[13:46:40] <robin_sz> its a function, a subroutine if you will
[13:46:40] <rayh> * rayh wonders what a class is?
[13:46:48] <robin_sz> its a lump of data
[13:46:51] <nevyn> rayh: the blueprint for an object
[13:46:55] <robin_sz> tied to some subroutines
[13:47:02] <nevyn> robin_sz: no a class doesn't have data an object has data.
[13:47:05] <robin_sz> I know
[13:47:09] <robin_sz> I was keeping it simple
[13:47:17] <rayh> What's a object.
[13:47:34] <rayh> objects have classes, classes have methods?
[13:47:43] <robin_sz> sorta
[13:47:52] <robin_sz> an object is an instance of a class ...
[13:47:58] <robin_sz> the class defines it ..
[13:48:03] <rayh> * rayh goes looking for his c++ for dummies
[13:48:13] <robin_sz> when you actuallt create it it becomes an object
[13:48:47] <rayh> Oh. Okay. I get that.
[13:48:49] <robin_sz> rayh: the widgets in Qt ..
[13:48:54] <robin_sz> each one is an object
[13:49:02] <rayh> Allright.
[13:49:06] <robin_sz> once they are on the screen
[13:49:22] <robin_sz> the Button class defines a button
[13:49:46] <robin_sz> when you make a new button, thats a Button object .. an instance of the Button class.
[13:49:47] <rayh> Got it. Each type of widget is a class.
[13:49:49] <nevyn> qbutton ok = new qbutton(/....)
[13:50:05] <robin_sz> right.
[13:50:16] <nevyn> except it's *ok but that's ok.
[13:50:32] <robin_sz> in C I guess a typedef is the same as a class
[13:50:39] <robin_sz> ish
[13:50:40] <rayh> What's the * tell me?
[13:50:49] <nevyn> no a struct with function pointers is a class..
[13:51:11] <robin_sz> * ... pointer to a thing
[13:51:30] <rayh> okay. I got pointers, at that level.
[13:51:33] <nevyn> pointers are still what I find hardest about c/c++
[13:51:38] <robin_sz> * and & cause much confusion
[13:51:59] <rayh> In application sure in concept they are easy.
[13:52:10] <robin_sz> yeah
[13:52:38] <robin_sz> in Perl you get $foo and \$foo returns a reference to it .. a pointer if you will
[13:52:59] <rayh> I should have said that each qt widget type, button, entry, label makes a unique group
[13:53:19] <robin_sz> well, you usually lay them out in a container
[13:53:27] <robin_sz> like a frame
[13:53:33] <nevyn> no you put them in a container object
[13:53:39] <nevyn> like qframe or qpanel or whatever.
[13:53:43] <rayh> Which is also heirarchial.
[13:53:47] <nevyn> nope.
[13:53:47] <robin_sz> yes
[13:54:05] <nevyn> * nevyn shuts up ;)
[13:54:10] <robin_sz> well .. in what ray menas as hierarchical
[13:54:16] <robin_sz> I suspect ray means
[13:54:31] <robin_sz> fram can exist within another frame
[13:54:33] <nevyn> you can put containers in containers/
[13:54:35] <nevyn> ah.
[13:54:42] <robin_sz> yep
[13:54:51] <rayh> I'm thinking graphical, in that you can refer to all of the widgets within a group.
[13:54:53] <nevyn> yes containers in containers is good. and avoids crap like gridbaglayout ;)
[13:55:07] <robin_sz> (not inherited hierarchy, lets not confuse things :)
[13:55:24] <robin_sz> yep and then things resize like they should
[13:55:26] <nevyn> within a container...
[13:55:28] <rayh> Describe inherited a bit.
[13:55:35] <robin_sz> ummm
[13:55:41] <robin_sz> Button ...
[13:55:50] <robin_sz> you click it right and err it clicks
[13:55:56] <rayh> k
[13:56:00] <nevyn> rayh: to get all the widgets within a container you'd iterate over the container object
[13:56:11] <robin_sz> say you want a button that turns red and green alternatley
[13:56:33] <robin_sz> you could either write all the crap for a button again, calling it RGButton
[13:56:35] <robin_sz> or ..
[13:57:10] <robin_sz> inherit from Button and just re-write the onClick method to do the red/green swapping
[13:57:22] <robin_sz> the latter is better
[13:57:24] <rayh> Okay.
[13:57:37] <nevyn> qt buttons have an onClick method?
[13:57:40] <rayh> Absolutely. I do the same sort of thing in tk
[13:57:56] <nevyn> you don't need to register the object as an event handler etc?
[13:57:58] <robin_sz> dunno the method name, im being general here
[13:57:59] <rayh> Right. I see that and you can create new ones of these.
[13:58:25] <robin_sz> basically, inheritance allows you to benfit from previous work without re-writing stuff
[13:58:54] <robin_sz> it also means when you bug-fix the bit you inherited from, you fix the other bits instantly for zero effort too.
[13:59:39] <jepler> and when you take advantage of accidental behavior that later changes in the base class, your code breaks
[13:59:48] <robin_sz> well, yes.
[13:59:49] <robin_sz> :)
[14:00:05] <robin_sz> but your unit test suite will pick that up
[14:00:36] <rayh> jepler: I can see that happening in my tickle code.
[14:01:42] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[14:02:12] <robin_sz> the Qt thing as a GUI would be cute, but it would need all that slots and signals nonsense workign out properly
[14:02:59] <rayh> Are slots and signals different from ordinary C++?
[14:03:00] <robin_sz> I'm afraid my head has been java'd and I think in terms of actionListeners etc these days
[14:03:27] <robin_sz> rayh: theyre just a way of things on a display to talk to the world and for the world to send stuff back to the display
[14:03:38] <jepler> rayh: yeah, in my day job it's always put off for years to change tcl or tk version, because we spend ages chasing little bugs that appear then.
[14:03:56] <jepler> we were on 4.2/7.6 for years, now 8.2 for years, now we'll switch to 8.5 if it comes out in time
[14:04:03] <rayh> jepler: catch gets me every time.
[14:04:27] <rayh> Who's time.
[14:04:52] <rayh> All right. I think that I can get my head around the widget set.
[14:05:08] <robin_sz> rayh: AIUI, buttons etc emit signals, slots allow widgets to get data that the application has sent back
[14:05:26] <rayh> With a little work, I can get my head around slots and signals -- Bob? Where are you?
[14:06:16] <rayh> I will need a bunch of help when it comes to making those sigs a part of NML.
[14:06:48] <robin_sz> rayh: the idea is that you build some sort of application interfacve that spends its life listening for signals (and poking the application when it sees one) and taking dat from the application and throwing it into slots (where the widgets pick it up and display it) ...
[14:07:01] <rayh> Exactly.
[14:07:17] <robin_sz> in theory, it doesnt matter if someting does or does not exist onthe GUI
[14:07:42] <robin_sz> thats my understanding anyway
[14:07:42] <rayh> Right. And the same is true of the EMC at lower levels.
[14:07:49] <robin_sz> hmmm m...
[14:07:56] <robin_sz> I wish :)
[14:08:05] <rayh> NML has the ability to ignore or demand answers to it's signals.
[14:08:41] <robin_sz> NML is too damn inflexible .. its impossible to extend without adding code to a bazillion places
[14:09:00] <rayh> What I'd like to do is build the very simplist qt gui and, with help from you all
[14:09:08] <rayh> make it work with a running emc.
[14:09:12] <robin_sz> I think one exists already
[14:09:14] <jepler> * jepler give a big "bah" for Qt
[14:09:23] <jepler> (AXIS uses Tk)
[14:09:39] <robin_sz> does it run on 'doze?
[14:09:45] <rayh> I'm aware of that.
[14:09:54] <jepler> robin_sz: Do I look like I care about the answer to that question?
[14:10:13] <rayh> But as nevyn pointed out there are limitations to the tk toolkit.
[14:10:13] <jepler> (not to be rude, but I don't)
[14:10:31] <robin_sz> I thnk its an important issue for emc
[14:10:56] <robin_sz> linux based controller behind a machine
[14:11:08] <rayh> I'm looking at two screens now. Both have charter at 128 poiint.
[14:11:08] <robin_sz> 'doze based GUI that the user can drool on
[14:11:29] <robin_sz> Qt offers that with (in theory) limited pain
[14:11:39] <alex_joni> robin: if it's QT or GTK you can do that
[14:11:58] <jepler> I've written Python+Tk apps on Linux that ran on Windows before, and my day job is a C+Tcl+Tk app that runs on Linux and Windows.
[14:12:03] <anonimasu> iab..
[14:12:13] <rayh> QT's display is awesome by comparison.
[14:12:22] <robin_sz> its pretty for sure
[14:13:02] <rayh> I admit that I'm uncertain about kits but willing to explore some.
[14:13:35] <alex_joni> rayh: if you do the kits, I can do the NML stuff
[14:13:39] <anonimasu> zhm..
[14:13:42] <anonimasu> kits?
[14:13:56] <jepler> rayh: tk8.5 (the development version) does antialiased fonts, if that's what you're referring to.
[14:14:04] <rayh> Im also certain that the tickle part drags down the final gui.
[14:14:06] <anonimasu> very very nice :)
[14:14:19] <alex_joni> btw.. AXIS looks nice enough
[14:14:27] <rayh> I suppose that is all ture.
[14:14:44] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is soldering
[14:14:49] <rayh> tkemc, axis, mini -- machs nich.
[14:14:57] <rayh> They all fail the shop floor test.
[14:14:59] <alex_joni> machs nich?
[14:15:13] <rayh> Makes no difference.
[14:15:19] <anonimasu> true
[14:15:28] <jepler> axis == hobbyist with table-top cnc, fine
[14:15:50] <alex_joni> brb
[14:15:57] <rayh> Yes very true. As does mini for the Sherline crowd.
[14:16:32] <rayh> and tkemc for the testing bunch.
[14:17:49] <rayh> I'm not heavy into eye candy for shop floor
[14:18:13] <rayh> but we need very simple very bulletproof displays of essential info.
[14:18:58] <anonimasu> eye candy isnt the same as functionality..
[14:18:59] <anonimasu> :)
[14:19:00] <jepler> fwiw here's a picture of tk8.5 on unix with fuzzy fonts: http://craie.unpy.net/~jepler/tk85.png
[14:20:04] <jepler> here's where I get confused---if you want something with nice generous fonts and big buttons, on a special-purpose machine on the shop floor, why do you need to run it on a windows machine?
[14:20:58] <anonimasu> hm cam program compability..
[14:21:17] <anonimasu> is what I'd say..
[14:21:51] <jepler> for the guy on the shop floor.
[14:22:14] <rayh> Hey thanks guys for the quick C++ lesson.
[14:22:29] <rayh> Hope that I didn't stirr up a hornets nest here.
[14:22:41] <anonimasu> jepler: ever had to make a major change when you find out your machining strategy is wrong?
[14:23:13] <anonimasu> there are even places where they do online programming of the part from the cad drawing on the machine..
[14:23:19] <rayh> * rayh must go away for a bit.
[14:23:49] <jepler> anonimasu: my experience is all hobbyist/desktop cnc, so I'll take your word for how it works in real shops. I'm just surprised.
[14:25:00] <jepler> sure I've had it turn out that my g-code was wrong and I had to stop and start over, but then everything I generate g-code from already works on the same desktop as AXIS.
[14:27:03] <anonimasu> jepler: most solutions are windows based :)
[14:27:09] <jepler> most problems are windows-based
[14:27:15] <anonimasu> yeah true..
[14:28:29] <anonimasu> I'd love to have online programming into emc ;)
[14:30:29] <anonimasu> but well it's just a dream yet..
[14:30:29] <anonimasu> heh
[14:31:04] <anonimasu> my X axis limit switches arrived today also
[14:31:11] <jepler> so how does one go about getting libemc and rcslib on windows (for the mingw or cygwin compilers, since I'm not about to drop $$ on a compiler)
[14:31:15] <alex_joni> jepler: sooo true
[14:31:28] <nevyn> do they build on ming?
[14:31:32] <jepler> nevyn: I've no idea
[14:31:37] <alex_joni> jepler: you'll need a lot of changes to get it to compile
[14:31:39] <nevyn> jepler: grab a copy of dev-c++
[14:31:41] <alex_joni> I can give you bins
[14:31:53] <jepler> because really the AXIS GUI should all run OOTB on Windows .. it's just the availability of the C libraries
[14:32:01] <jepler> and of course I have no clue how you'd configure it
[14:32:02] <alex_joni> but afaik you can't link those with another compiler
[14:32:19] <alex_joni> jepler: the problem I had with AXIS was Python based
[14:32:46] <jepler> hm, my local version of _toglmodule.c might have had the windows support ripped out
[14:32:52] <jepler> * jepler tries to remember.
[14:32:52] <anonimasu> hm..
[14:33:06] <alex_joni> I got the latest Python.. seemed to be an error
[14:33:14] <alex_joni> wouldn't compile without M$.NET
[14:33:29] <alex_joni> I needed to hack the sources (of Python) to disregard compiler stuff
[14:33:37] <jepler> what compiler were you trying to use?
[14:33:39] <alex_joni> but.. don't think it would actually run :D
[14:33:41] <anonimasu> #pragma #pragma #pragma
[14:33:42] <alex_joni> VC6
[14:33:42] <anonimasu> ;)
[14:34:02] <anonimasu> hm.. I have .net if you would like me to compile it for you
[14:34:46] <jepler> not interested in building my software with non-free tools.
[14:36:25] <jepler> time to get to "work". see you guys later.
[14:36:29] <anonimasu> hm, I'd use free toold..
[14:36:30] <anonimasu> tools..
[14:36:36] <jepler> you said .net
[14:36:43] <jepler> I mean free like freedom
[14:36:51] <anonimasu> but I cant really throw cygwin along with the interfaces I write for the plcs...
[14:38:02] <anonimasu> jepler: does that make any sense?
[14:39:09] <jepler> anonimasu: I mean, tools covered by "free software" licenses. DFSG. I know I can get some .net development stuff without paying, but I have to accept an onerous license and can't look at or modify the source.
[14:39:51] <anonimasu> for the development tools?
[14:39:57] <jepler> right
[14:39:59] <anonimasu> I am annoyed
[14:40:01] <anonimasu> whoops..
[14:40:08] <anonimasu> wrong win..
[14:40:22] <anonimasu> well it'
[14:40:48] <anonimasu> it's not like you can throw cygwin along anyway.. if you make anything comercially.. :/
[14:40:55] <jepler> mingw
[14:41:08] <nevyn> dev-c++
[14:41:30] <nevyn> nice little ide for windows based on mingw
[14:42:03] <jepler> mingw is free software with a public-domain runtime (no restrictions)
[14:42:27] <jepler> http://www.mingw.org/mingwfaq.shtml#faq-license
[14:42:51] <jepler> so it's great for free-software folks like me, and also great for my day-job company who wants to sell a product for Windows cross-built on Linux with free tools.
[14:43:10] <anonimasu> yep that's nice..
[14:45:59] <jepler> only problem with mingw is when you want to use a .LIB with C++ constructs built with any version of msvc, it's completely incompatible
[14:47:00] <jepler> really, I'm leaving now
[14:48:00] <anonimasu> ok
[14:48:02] <anonimasu> laters
[14:49:38] <alex_joni> jepler: think I read some articles about it
[14:59:25] <A-L-P-H-A> EVERYONE STOP BUYING FROM MCMASTER-CARR!!! :) Use www.mscdirect.com instead. Call up customer service, and they will price match everything! :D
[15:00:21] <anonimasu> neat
[15:02:55] <paul_c> A-L-P-H-A: You buying stuff from msc ?
[15:16:00] <anonimasu> laters..
[15:16:05] <anonimasu> going home from work now
[15:17:32] <alex_joni> bye an0n
[15:24:20] <alex_joni> * alex_joni does the same thing
[15:24:22] <alex_joni> bye guys
[15:24:43] <nevyn> hrm I should sleep.
[15:32:36] <robin_sz> I never figured out which bits of mingw to actually download
[15:32:46] <robin_sz> totally obscure
[15:35:35] <nevyn> * nevyn coughs and again points at dev-c++
[15:35:41] <nevyn> dev-c++.sf.net
[15:37:28] <robin_sz> point at it all you like
[15:37:31] <robin_sz> wont help
[15:37:49] <robin_sz> + is not an allowable char in a DNS entry
[15:38:04] <nevyn> hrm. dev-cpp.sf.net maybe then
[15:38:38] <robin_sz> http://dev-cpp.sourceforge.net/ ??
[15:39:23] <nevyn> I was using it at school when I was stuck in windows.
[15:40:02] <robin_sz> * robin_sz compiles the FOX toolkit
[15:41:05] <nevyn> http://www.bloodshed.net/download.html
[15:41:09] <nevyn> sigh. fox.
[15:41:18] <nevyn> I know a guy who maintains fox-extras
[15:41:29] <nevyn> it suffers from a whole mess of ugly
[15:41:39] <nevyn> and from the AWT problem
[15:41:43] <robin_sz> shrug
[15:41:46] <robin_sz> AWT?
[15:41:49] <nevyn> it's portable.
[15:41:59] <nevyn> but it's uglyassed everywhere.
[15:42:16] <nevyn> it's consistant and portable.
[15:42:28] <nevyn> that is to say it's consistantly ugly on every platform.
[15:42:42] <robin_sz> remind me .. this c++ IDE, what does it do for me again that say, eclipse or kdevelop dont?
[15:42:43] <nevyn> AWT is advanced Widget toollkit
[15:43:00] <nevyn> java 1.1 widgets
[15:43:05] <robin_sz> ah yes
[15:43:07] <nevyn> what's used for applets
[15:43:18] <robin_sz> yes, I am familiar
[15:43:22] <nevyn> robin_sz: it runs of windows for those who care about such things.
[15:43:55] <robin_sz> I dont care for actually running the compiler in wondows, so long as the binary will run in doze when its compiled ..
[15:44:26] <robin_sz> which is where FOX comes in ...
[15:44:34] <nevyn> but to do that doesn't one need to build on windows? even with fox.
[15:44:41] <robin_sz> nope
[15:45:00] <robin_sz> it should build an exe on linux
[15:45:04] <robin_sz> appareently
[15:45:21] <nevyn> I'm pretty sure it can't do that.
[15:45:59] <robin_sz> steve hardy implied it did for him ...
[15:46:24] <robin_sz> which is where cmake comes in
[15:47:12] <nevyn> ok.
[15:47:21] <robin_sz> and that would be failr kewl :)
[15:47:31] <nevyn> that's an interesting concept. still need a windows of some description for testing tho.
[15:47:45] <robin_sz> h, for sure
[15:48:23] <nevyn> fox really is ugly.
[15:48:39] <nevyn> and it doesn't fit into the native environment
[15:48:42] <nevyn> where qt does.
[15:48:47] <nevyn> and even gtk does.
[16:58:19] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/rs274ngc_pre.cc: Q values for G83 should flag an error if zero or negative.
[17:12:09] <rayh> I'm back! Hide.
[17:12:26] <rayh> Thanks for the fix, paul.
[17:13:12] <rayh> I know that it's possible to distribute a tarball for those machines in the field.
[17:13:33] <rayh> Can a deb be made to do this?
[17:14:28] <paul_c> Sure - That was the whole point of packaging the stuff up.
[17:15:27] <paul_c> I haven't emailed Billy direct - I thought I would leave that to you..
[17:16:28] <rayh> Is it a whole emc download.
[17:17:25] <rayh> Can you send that to matt@sherline today so he can get it on the rlease?
[17:17:44] <paul_c> It would be a 1.2Meg download at most.
[17:19:06] <rayh> Are you working on an iso at Sherline?
[17:19:31] <paul_c> nope - All the files are here.
[17:19:41] <rayh> Ouch.
[17:20:00] <rayh> How quickly can we get a new iso to them.
[17:20:14] <rayh> What they are planning is a 40 box purchase with emc preloaded.
[17:20:48] <rayh> So we need to get upgraded doc's to you from them and then a final version back to Sherline.
[17:21:50] <paul_c> today is... Wednesday... If I start now, can probably have something on a server by Thursday night/Friday morning.
[17:22:04] <rayh> I'll post a note to billie thanking him and copy Joe at S.
[17:22:14] <paul_c> Already have the latest Docs included on the CD
[17:22:21] <rayh> Okay. I'll get that info to them.
[17:23:36] <paul_c> I can get a deb on my server if anyone wants to update.
[17:26:38] <rayh> Okay. I'll also suggest that Sherline might ship diskettes.
[17:29:49] <paul_c> At least this is a non-fatal bug....
[17:31:58] <rayh> If you say so.
[17:32:29] <rayh> Matt said that Craig had made changes again so they will forward to you.
[17:33:06] <paul_c> OK - I'll need them before building the final iso.
[17:34:21] <paul_c> cd /mount
[17:42:00] <paul_c> Do you want me to email the emc-deb over for testing ?
[17:44:57] <A-L-P-H-A> dimsum was fun. :D
[17:49:42] <rayh> Yes please do.
[17:49:51] <rayh> * rayh is on the phone.
[17:57:06] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A is on the throne.
[17:57:15] <A-L-P-H-A> :D laptops are good
[17:57:54] <paul_c> I think that was on a "don't need to know" basis...
[17:58:19] <A-L-P-H-A> so... good movement, is TMI?
[17:58:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I bought an albretch chuck today.
[17:58:52] <A-L-P-H-A> :D
[17:59:04] <A-L-P-H-A> should be here by the end of next week... hopefully sooner.
[18:11:33] <rayh> paul_c: Let me know when you get that deb up and the link and I can apt-get install it from your server.
[18:17:19] <acemi> is it possible to prevent udev to control some device?
[18:31:49] <paul_c> apt-get remove --purge udev
[18:33:41] <acemi> but gnome depends udev
[18:34:16] <acemi> is tehre a way to use udev and emc in the same time
[18:34:32] <paul_c> * paul_c is working on it
[18:34:38] <acemi> hmm
[18:41:34] <anonimasu> iab
[18:41:56] <Jymmm> thanks for the warning
[18:52:19] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Red70sShow
[18:52:19] <Red70sShow> Red70sShow is now known as Jymmm
[19:07:53] <anonimasu> hm, nice isp I have I've got a transfer limit both in and out.
[19:12:27] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[19:12:32] <anonimasu> time to change.
[19:26:13] <Jymmm> anonimasu: your isp, or your host?
[19:26:31] <anonimasu> my isp.
[19:33:03] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Yeah, you need a new one. You on dialup?
[19:34:58] <anonimasu> Jymmm: nope..
[19:35:41] <Jymmm> damn... then that really sucks
[19:36:04] <anonimasu> Jymmm: there are other isps.. just not as good..
[19:36:13] <Jymmm> anonimasu: where you at?
[19:36:16] <anonimasu> north sweden
[19:36:33] <Jymmm> I thought you guys had cheap T-1's out there?
[19:36:37] <anonimasu> yes...
[19:36:39] <anonimasu> until now
[19:36:48] <anonimasu> my isp started putting up transfer limits..
[19:37:18] <Jymmm> limits these days are ancient.
[19:37:24] <Jymmm> unless hosting of course.
[19:38:12] <anonimasu> I checked out how much I had..
[19:38:30] <anonimasu> their system seems to be broken..
[19:38:30] <anonimasu> :)
[19:38:36] <anonimasu> but it annoys the hell out of me..
[19:39:43] <jepler> my ISP has transfer limits on DSL, but they're generous enough I generally don't get close to them.
[19:39:57] <anonimasu> I have 8gb..
[19:40:01] <anonimasu> or well
[19:40:05] <anonimasu> the paper says 8gb..
[19:40:16] <jepler> I get 15GB up / 15 GB down per month
[19:40:19] <anonimasu> but when I checked I had 48gb in 7 days in/out..
[19:40:56] <anonimasu> of thoose 8 are backups from work..
[19:41:04] <Jymmm> fuck me... HF has the mill on sale $50 off
[19:41:05] <jepler> but it was a choice between this ISP with a quota, or ISPs without quotas but with contracts that permit them to unilaterally decide you're using too much bandwidth and terminate you
[19:41:12] <jepler> I know exactly what I'm getting
[19:41:26] <anonimasu> * anonimasu hates it so much
[19:41:27] <jepler> 48GB is quite a bit, much more than I ever do
[19:41:43] <Jymmm> unless pron, dvd,s or music
[19:41:52] <Jymmm> then it's very little
[19:42:10] <Jymmm> for me, it's ISO's
[19:42:33] <jepler> yeah, in the past when I've let a torrent for some linux iso run, I've gotten close to the 15GB limit
[19:42:39] <anonimasu> it adds up since I torrent stuff...
[19:43:09] <anonimasu> but still.. 8gb is very little..
[19:43:28] <jepler> beyond 15GB it's $0.005USD per megabyte of transfer.
[19:43:46] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs even more
[19:43:57] <anonimasu> I think I'll switch isp.. instead..
[19:44:04] <anonimasu> or buy another connect also..
[19:44:08] <anonimasu> and multihome to it..
[19:44:30] <anonimasu> throw dns queries/web over the primary and everything else over the other..
[19:44:39] <anonimasu> there's a company that sells 8mbit/s down..
[19:44:43] <anonimasu> and 512up..
[19:44:58] <anonimasu> without limits.. but I dont know how the speed is on it..
[19:46:00] <Jymmm> On sale for $450 USD http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
[19:47:50] <jepler> Jymmm: you're thinking retrofit?
[19:48:30] <Jymmm> jepler: that and for general use (I'm in an apartment)
[19:49:40] <anonimasu> hm..
[19:54:10] <robin_sz> whats the point os a T1 or DSL with a useage cap?
[19:54:20] <robin_sz> I mean, youve paid for it right?
[19:54:48] <robin_sz> we had one ISP in the UK (BT) that tried that .. people left in droves
[19:55:02] <robin_sz> I dont think anyone else has tried it since
[19:59:16] <Jymmm> Doesn't BT still changes per minute for local calls?
[20:05:16] <Jymmm> I really like google's map thingy, nice and clean. map.google.com
[20:05:19] <Jymmm> I really like google's map thingy, nice and clean. maps.google.com
[20:11:28] <Jymmm> jepler: any thoughts?
[20:13:54] <anonimasu> yeah..
[20:14:00] <anonimasu> hm.. I'll switch/get another isp aswell
[20:15:13] <Jymmm> anonimasu you dsl or T1 now?
[20:15:18] <anonimasu> Jymmm: lan..
[20:15:31] <Jymmm> huh?
[20:15:37] <anonimasu> ethernet to my isp..
[20:15:43] <Jymmm> huh?
[20:15:55] <Jymmm> that doesn't make sense
[20:16:04] <anonimasu> or well ethernet/fibre
[20:16:09] <Jymmm> is your isp within 600' ?
[20:16:28] <Jymmm> you have fiber to the desktop?
[20:16:47] <anonimasu> I have 10m of ethernet before it goes into my router..
[20:17:12] <anonimasu> somwhere around 10 mbit/s
[20:17:18] <anonimasu> is what I get in speed..
[20:17:31] <Jymmm> ok, how are you getting brandband from your isp to your home?
[20:17:51] <anonimasu> fibre & ethernet.
[20:17:52] <anonimasu> :D
[20:18:30] <Jymmm> anonimasu whre is the fiber terminated at?
[20:18:50] <anonimasu> inside a locked room across the street in the hospital there..
[20:19:00] <Jymmm> * Jymmm smacks anonimasu
[20:19:12] <anonimasu> the3n?
[20:19:14] <anonimasu> err ?
[20:19:48] <Jymmm> you now your being a buttmuch.... how are you getting a connection from a hospital?
[20:20:02] <Jymmm> that makes ZERO sense
[20:20:17] <Jymmm> * Jymmm tries to understand, but...
[20:21:26] <anonimasu> the municipality over here provides the connection... they own the hospital aswell..
[20:21:44] <anonimasu> they have a fibre switch/repeater there going away further..
[20:21:52] <anonimasu> err going further away..
[20:22:28] <Jymmm> OH! Ok, NOW that makes sense. Around here hospitals are commercial and dont communicate with each other to utilize their resources like that.
[20:22:58] <anonimasu> yeah..
[20:23:27] <Jymmm> talk about culture shock
[20:23:46] <anonimasu> but last month they decided to switch me to the usual net they've been building the last months..
[20:24:09] <anonimasu> I've had for 5 years.. almost..
[20:25:01] <anonimasu> I used to have 2 mbit/s full duplex before..
[20:25:11] <Jymmm> ouch
[20:25:21] <anonimasu> no transfer limits..
[20:25:51] <anonimasu> although that was through the same network as the schools get connection through ehre so I always kept my downloads off during wor hours..
[20:25:58] <anonimasu> work..
[20:26:11] <Jymmm> thats cool
[20:26:33] <anonimasu> yeah, if I would have seen this comming I wouldnt have.
[20:26:59] <anonimasu> I'd rather have 2mbit/s and no transfer limit and 3x the monthly cost..
[20:28:49] <Jymmm> feel lucky... DSL 1.5 down, 128 up, PPPoE DHCP for $20/mo USD
[20:29:07] <Jymmm> $25/mo I meant
[20:29:10] <anonimasu> lucky.. heh
[20:29:24] <anonimasu> 8mbit/s dsl.. is the option..
[20:29:35] <Jymmm> how much?
[20:29:46] <anonimasu> 130$ per month
[20:29:54] <Jymmm> unlimited?
[20:29:57] <anonimasu> yes
[20:30:02] <Jymmm> that's cheap
[20:30:55] <Jymmm> well, not cheap, but not bad for what it is. whats the upload speed on that?
[20:31:18] <anonimasu> 512 I think
[20:31:25] <anonimasu> let me check
[20:44:06] <anonimasu> 0.8mbit's up
[20:44:42] <Jymmm> not bad
[20:45:10] <anonimasu> it's a bit more though then what I thought
[20:45:27] <anonimasu> 207$
[20:45:44] <Jymmm> yuk
[21:34:48] <gezr> howdy folks
[21:36:20] <paul_c> Evening gezr
[21:37:15] <gezr> how are you doing paul?
[21:39:55] <paul_c> Cursing some 'erb who sent me some html docs less images....
[21:40:24] <paul_c> But hey, nailed a bug in the interp today.
[21:40:33] <gezr> oh?
[21:41:30] <paul_c> One of the canned cycles. Nothing major.
[21:46:12] <anonimasu> hm..
[21:46:32] <gezr> paul_c : is there a canned cycle cancel?
[21:47:39] <paul_c> G80
[21:47:42] <gezr> as in say a drilling cycle is called, with initial position x and y, depth and things, then can consecutive positions be programed, and at each position the previous called cycle repeate its self at that location, until a G(canned cycle) is called?
[21:48:05] <gezr> okay, g80 :), sweet
[21:50:01] <gezr> I think that with a good bit of time, I could add or increase the total canned cycles in emc :)
[21:50:25] <gezr> but you know I cant code
[21:50:44] <paul_c> It's not hard - Did a few custom cycles a while back..
[21:51:33] <gezr> paul_c : would you like me to try and diagram out some turning cycles, grooving cycles, and some pocket milling cycles?
[21:52:44] <gezr> I had to write a special grooving cycle a few months ago in macro format to cutoff large diameter rings cause the control didnt provide a peck grooving cycle
[21:52:54] <paul_c> Sure - But be carefull which codes you use.
[21:53:20] <gezr> paul_c : Ill probably just provide the routine for the necessary paths
[21:54:05] <gezr> I dont know, its something to work on
[21:54:18] <gezr> or at least think about
[21:54:41] <gezr> heck I may be able to program them in on my own, which would be really cool
[21:55:13] <gezr> I like the conversonational stuff im usiing now, its pretty efficient
[21:55:24] <gezr> not quite cam but pretty close
[21:56:41] <paul_c> For small & one off stuff, a lot of CAD/CAM is overkill.
[21:57:34] <gezr> yeah, in that case, either direct G-code, or conversational rules
[21:57:41] <paul_c> I can program th BP to cut an 4 pot exhaust flange in a handfull of blocks at the console.
[21:58:33] <anonimasu> hmm, cam is pretty easy once you get used to your program..
[21:58:34] <gezr> paul_c : have you ever seen conversational ?
[21:58:35] <anonimasu> :)
[21:59:24] <paul_c> never used commercial conversational..
[22:00:31] <gezr> its neat
[22:06:06] <Jymmm> I cant find 12' drillrod anywhere, sigh
[22:06:40] <paul_c> 12 foot lengths, or 12 foot Dia ?
[22:07:01] <Jymmm> Twelve Foot Diameter
[22:07:26] <Jymmm> but only 0.125" long
[22:07:33] <gezr> what?
[22:07:39] <Jymmm> ritf
[22:07:41] <Jymmm> rotf
[22:07:46] <gezr> you want 12 ft diameter drillrod?
[22:07:49] <Jymmm> 12 ft lenght
[22:07:55] <Jymmm> It was a joke
[22:07:57] <gezr> 3ft length
[22:08:02] <Jymmm> no, 12'
[22:08:07] <gezr> not gonna happen
[22:08:11] <Jymmm> 12' == full length bar
[22:08:34] <Jymmm> I really only want 5', but anything > 3' requires 12'
[22:08:38] <gezr> you want to buy one foot or a 12' bar?
[22:09:03] <paul_c> You won't get 12' lengths. Standard is 13" or 1metre
[22:09:03] <Jymmm> gezr: I really only want 5', but anything > 3' requires 12'
[22:09:16] <gezr> what diameter? ill buy a bar, cut off 5' for you can charge you for the full bar :)
[22:10:14] <Jymmm> paul_c: I'm reading the catalogs, and they're saying full length is 12'
[22:11:01] <Jymmm> http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/special/drillrod.html
[22:11:31] <gezr> Jymmm : what diameter?
[22:11:34] <paul_c> Please insert "in the UK"
[22:11:36] <gezr> Jymmm : and what class, w1?
[22:11:36] <Jymmm> 1"
[22:11:39] <Jymmm> w1
[22:12:12] <gezr> http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=4668&step=4&showunits=inches
[22:12:19] <gezr> call those folks, they do custom drops
[22:12:24] <gezr> your going to pay for it though
[22:14:37] <Jymmm> Yeah, I'll find this yet!
[22:14:40] <gezr> a drop is any length other then a standard length, 12' isnt as common as it used to be, its more like Paul is saying 13' lengths or there abouts, the 3ft tool steel spec is sorta custom, because its not supposed to be used as a structural steel, many better choices, unless your making a broach
[22:15:00] <paul_c> 13inch
[22:15:14] <gezr> your not going to find a 5' length of it, unless someone is acutioning it off on ebay
[22:17:22] <gezr> http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=7273&step=4&showunits=inches
[22:17:23] <Jymmm> W1 1" x 12' $78.48 (cutin half for shipping N/C)
[22:17:33] <gezr> thats 17-4 stainless, ground od
[22:18:03] <gezr> 5 feet is 68 bucks
[22:18:45] <Jymmm> times two, too.
[22:18:54] <gezr> no thats cut to 5 feet
[22:19:07] <Jymmm> I need two five foot pieces
[22:19:14] <gezr> ah
[22:19:23] <gezr> why are you going w1?
[22:19:31] <Jymmm> Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
[22:21:00] <gezr> are they guarnteeing a diameter?
[22:21:34] <Jymmm> .500 to 2.000: +- .001
[22:21:42] <gezr> not bad at all then
[22:21:55] <Jymmm> .125 to .499: +-.0005
[22:22:18] <Jymmm> < .125: =-.0003
[22:22:25] <Jymmm> < .125: +-.0003
[22:23:57] <anonimasu> that's good specs
[22:24:29] <Jymmm> $47.11 ground =(
[22:25:01] <Jymmm> shipping ^^^
[22:25:21] <Jymmm> and that's cut in half @ no charge too.
[22:25:28] <anonimasu> hm.. is that expensive?
[22:25:33] <anonimasu> I think that it seems cheap :)
[22:25:42] <anonimasu> very cheap..
[22:25:46] <Jymmm> material $80, shipping $50
[22:26:19] <anonimasu> :)
[22:26:22] <anonimasu> cheap also
[22:26:23] <anonimasu> :)
[22:26:23] <gezr> thats not bad at all
[22:26:44] <Jymmm> shipping a lil high imo
[22:27:34] <Jymmm> If I can just find someone local ( <50 radius) I'd be happy
[22:28:15] <gezr> or a trucker who makes that run
[22:28:39] <Jymmm> Yeah, I'm in no rush, let it piggy back on a deadrun
[22:28:46] <Jymmm> deadhead
[22:29:19] <Jymmm> oh, btw.... http://ToolAndDie.com/ for future ref.
[22:29:33] <Jymmm> or flat-stock.com
[22:29:48] <gezr> you can get good hard steels from a search for perlow steel
[22:30:11] <gezr> but I dont know if they do small runs
[22:30:55] <Jymmm> everything is in LA is the big problem.
[22:31:32] <gezr> http://www.rolledthreads.com/
[22:31:37] <gezr> awsome thread roller :)
[22:31:42] <Jymmm> Shit, dont care what your looking for if it's not in LA you're not going to find it.
[22:32:22] <gezr> I know a million suppliers and shops outside LA
[22:32:50] <Jymmm> Well, to be complete, within 200 mile radius
[22:32:55] <Jymmm> of la
[22:33:40] <Jymmm> drugs, slaves, diamonds, endangered species, etc
[22:33:50] <Jymmm> and my damn 12' drillrod! argh
[22:33:54] <Jymmm> lol
[22:34:30] <gezr> what about a shop with a centerless grinder who can do bar work in your area?
[22:34:48] <Jymmm> I dont' think for $100 anyone would
[22:35:24] <gezr> folks help folks for all sorts of reasons
[22:36:05] <Jymmm> Heck, a ways back I couldn't find someone to make a tap for me (within the US)
[22:36:34] <gezr> I made a custom 1/4 inch straight flute tap for a guy up north a few years ago :)
[22:36:41] <gezr> it was a son of a bitch to make
[22:36:59] <gezr> straight side, not flute
[22:37:04] <gezr> square thread
[22:37:26] <gezr> for an old hardinge catarac lathe
[22:37:53] <gezr> I made the tap, and tapped the nut and put it all back together for the guy, just about ruined it
[22:38:19] <gezr> maybe it was 3/8 yeah it was 3/8
[22:38:45] <gezr> but square threads, it was really hard to get right
[22:39:10] <gezr> the part to tap was a small piece of brass, and it had to be tapped while it was all together
[22:40:11] <gezr> I did it for free
[22:40:28] <gezr> made at least 6 taps in the process
[22:41:04] <Jymmm> I wanted a tap MADE =)
[22:41:05] <gezr> I felt really bad that I couldnt send the guy the tap, but it would never make another hole,
[22:41:16] <Jymmm> oh heh
[22:41:46] <gezr> I just got lucky it didnt break making the part for him
[22:42:06] <Jymmm> this isn't THAT bad... but the threads are rounded
[22:42:10] <gezr> hardinge has a special set of 3 taps they use to form that thread
[22:43:39] <gezr> I could make a round form tap
[22:43:55] <Jymmm> it's about 1.25" diam
[22:44:01] <gezr> yep
[22:44:08] <gezr> if its not excessively deep
[22:44:21] <Jymmm> < .125 iirc
[22:44:22] <gezr> or a very high lead
[22:44:31] <Jymmm> 8 deg iirc
[22:44:39] <gezr> that sort of tap would be about 10 inches long
[22:44:46] <Jymmm> 1"
[22:44:48] <gezr> and would take a long time to do
[22:45:04] <gezr> it would need to be 10 inches long for a home made tap to form that thread
[22:45:08] <Jymmm> I dont remember I'd have to pull up the blueprints
[22:45:25] <Jymmm> it's only 4 tpi I think
[22:45:32] <gezr> yeah thats too high a lead
[22:51:05] <gezr> I dont think I can gear my machine down to that
[22:51:54] <Jymmm> well, let me find the prints later this week
[22:51:57] <gezr> yeah it will do 4
[22:52:40] <gezr> I cant heat treat that large of a part here at home, and whats it going to be tapping?
[22:52:56] <Jymmm> aluminum
[22:53:20] <gezr> man, I dont know
[22:53:37] <gezr> thats so large
[22:55:29] <Jymmm> gezr: do you have any bottled soda at your place?
[22:55:50] <gezr> not at the moment
[22:55:59] <gezr> is that basically the form?
[22:56:12] <Jymmm> gezr: Look at the threads of a 2-liter bottle =)
[22:56:35] <gezr> they tend to be dual start I think, and no I cant cut that efficiently here
[22:56:49] <gezr> I could, but oh my
[22:57:00] <Jymmm> gezr: again, later this week.
[22:57:06] <gezr> it would be strange, Ide have to use dogs, and all that
[22:57:32] <gezr> Jymmm : a home made tap even if I could get one cut, will not make very many holes
[22:58:34] <gezr> and impossiable to be a blind hole use
[23:19:47] <robin_sz> evening
[23:19:56] <pfred1> robin_sz hi there
[23:20:02] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waves
[23:20:16] <robin_sz> I was reading gezr tap making fun.
[23:21:04] <robin_sz> the only time I tried making one, well it almost worked :)
[23:21:41] <robin_sz> silver steel is great for home-made taps, you can harden it real good.
[23:21:57] <pfred1> what's silver steel?
[23:22:22] <robin_sz> I think its lke what they call drill-rod in the US
[23:22:33] <pfred1> robin_sz ah ha!
[23:22:38] <robin_sz> has excellent haredening properties
[23:22:48] <robin_sz> heat it to a good orange and dunk in oil ..
[23:23:02] <pfred1> yeah nice pretty soon I'm setting up a foundry will try my hand at a little forging too
[23:23:02] <robin_sz> then draw the temper
[23:23:17] <robin_sz> alluminium foundry?
[23:23:31] <pfred1> robin_sz going to start there see what it leads to
[23:23:36] <robin_sz> right
[23:24:01] <pfred1> robin_sz got a guy in another network going to try sending me PDF of Gingery's book later this evening I hope
[23:24:05] <robin_sz> going to try the lost-styrofoam trick?
[23:24:16] <pfred1> been thinking about it looks pretty slick
[23:24:25] <pfred1> going to do traditional formwork too
[23:24:31] <pfred1> I really like woodworking
[23:24:37] <pfred1> so making forms I should be into
[23:25:04] <pfred1> love woodworking
[23:25:17] <pfred1> which is sort of what got me invloved with CNC
[23:25:23] <pfred1> involved even
[23:25:57] <robin_sz> right
[23:26:11] <pfred1> signs are very popular with woodworking
[23:26:30] <robin_sz> I think the styro works well if you have a vacuum system to suck the sand
[23:26:43] <robin_sz> yeah, signs is where I started out
[23:26:54] <pfred1> hey you cna just stay there
[23:27:36] <robin_sz> no chance
[23:27:36] <pfred1> whenever i sell woodwork my bigest seller is signs
[23:27:36] <pfred1> I rout them by hand now but want this CNC stuff to expand my capabilities
[23:27:38] <robin_sz> I tired of the infilling and varnishing
[23:27:52] <pfred1> so use another finish
[23:28:07] <pfred1> heck with my signs all I do is stain them
[23:28:16] <robin_sz> I tried a different industry
[23:28:20] <pfred1> yeah what?
[23:28:26] <robin_sz> software
[23:28:36] <pfred1> ah I have no aptitude with that
[23:29:17] <robin_sz> its just engineering
[23:29:31] <pfred1> it's all greek to me :)
[23:32:31] <anonimasu_> hello
[23:32:36] <pfred1> anonimasu_ hi
[23:32:44] <pfred1> anonimasu_ you grew a tail!
[23:32:50] <anonimasu_> funny that my router reinstall is 70% done before I timeout ;)
[23:33:00] <anonimasu_> pfred1: yeah :)
[23:33:21] <pfred1> anonimasu_ it looks good don't listen to what anyone else tries to tell you
[23:33:28] <anonimasu_> haha
[23:33:44] <anonimasu_> how's it going?
[23:33:56] <pfred1> cold
[23:34:00] <anonimasu_> :/
[23:34:05] <pfred1> can't do crap here I'm going stir crazy!
[23:34:16] <anonimasu_> what do you mean+
[23:34:38] <pfred1> it's too cold to work on my CNC project :(
[23:34:50] <pfred1> I was just making headway before the temperature took a dive
[23:34:57] <anonimasu_> ah
[23:35:22] <anonimasu_> if I was feeling better I'd go out and do some work on mine..
[23:35:31] <anonimasu_> I need to make limit switch mounts
[23:35:38] <pfred1> now i have plans of rewinding that transformer again with a different piece of wire that i want to shellac myself but it's just too cold to try to do that
[23:36:00] <anonimasu_> or maybe I'll use the switch as home switches.. since I ordered too few anyway..
[23:36:23] <pfred1> I got lots of microswitches for when I get to that stage
[23:36:40] <anonimasu_> I have loads but I ordered ones with rollers :)
[23:36:49] <anonimasu_> anonimasu_ is now known as anonimasu
[23:38:34] <anonimasu> but am a bit short on material
[23:38:47] <pfred1> what sort of material?
[23:39:16] <anonimasu> alu
[23:39:24] <anonimasu> everything other then mild steel..
[23:39:36] <pfred1> ah stock materials
[23:39:40] <anonimasu> I have 4x4 square alu..
[23:39:45] <anonimasu> but it's a bit much to mill down
[23:39:45] <pfred1> yeah I plan on making my own
[23:39:54] <anonimasu> to get a �" of plate
[23:40:24] <pfred1> finally I'm going to a place where I can get away with some more industrial processes
[23:41:29] <anonimasu> hm.. ok
[23:41:39] <anonimasu> I dont get what you mean with that :)
[23:41:56] <pfred1> I can get away with pretty much anything here huh?
[23:42:40] <anonimasu> hm...
[23:43:23] <robin_sz> blimey! .. she'll catch a cold
[23:44:41] <anonimasu> ?
[23:45:18] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is making a panel
[23:47:25] <robin_sz> pfred1: did that truck get back together?
[23:47:37] <pfred1> robin_sz what truck?
[23:47:51] <robin_sz>
[23:48:09] <pfred1> robin_sz oh yeah that only took 3 days
[23:48:15] <robin_sz> wow
[23:48:28] <robin_sz> looked like a lot of holes holding some rust together
[23:49:50] <pfred1> robin_sz here is it painted
[23:50:42] <robin_sz> hey, painted up ok huh
[23:51:32] <pfred1> robin_sz well I didn't do great prep work I figure it's just going to rot out again
[23:51:36] <robin_sz> I had to lacquer a bit of the bonnet on the BMW .. lacquer coat was detaching and it was getting bigger
[23:51:41] <pfred1> but yeah it's al lone color now with no holes
[23:51:56] <robin_sz> yeah, looks much better
[23:51:59] <pfred1> I use Acrylic enamal
[23:52:15] <pfred1> the truck I sprayed in Dupont Centari
[23:52:16] <robin_sz> yeah, acrylllic is a good choice
[23:52:20] <pfred1> it's durable
[23:52:24] <robin_sz> yeah
[23:52:33] <robin_sz> and it goes over old cellulose no problem
[23:56:15] <pfred1> yeah everything pretty much is acrylic today
[23:58:30] <anonimasu> hm
[23:59:48] <pfred1> robin_sz here's a car I painted in 89 BMW Salmon Silver