#emc | Logs for 2005-02-27

[00:01:22] <paul_c> Imperator_: You still up ?
[00:02:03] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ has downloaded the Xilinx software and designs a EMC-CHIP :-)
[00:02:06] <Imperator_> jup
[00:02:32] <Imperator_> you need a FTP-Server ?
[00:02:45] <paul_c> You want the latest ?
[00:05:39] <Jymmm> jmkasunich large amounts... 100's of pallets worth
[00:19:40] <rayh_away> rayh_away is now known as rayh
[00:26:02] <rayh> paul_c: See you lost the smut folk.
[00:26:51] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... binary division by repeated subtraction.
[00:26:55] <A-L-P-H-A> that's ONE way of doing things.
[00:29:31] <anonimasu> hm yeah
[00:29:33] <anonimasu> a nice one
[00:30:24] <danfalck> hi ray
[00:30:33] <paul_c> rayh: I banned them when they asked me for ops
[00:36:27] <rayh> Okay. They didn't want much.
[00:37:36] <rayh> Got a question regarding your response to the question, "do you like hardcore sex?"
[00:38:11] <rayh> Was "one more crack like that and you're out of here." what I think it was.
[00:38:34] <paul_c> wisecrack
[00:38:34] <gezr> buahajhahahahaha
[00:38:38] <gezr> whats this about?
[00:38:52] <gezr> * gezr went on a trip to his dads today
[00:39:47] <rayh> There were a couple of shills for a porn site that got in a while ago.
[00:39:49] <paul_c> Bike ?
[00:40:13] <gezr> rayh : oh, nothing like a good kick ban
[00:40:23] <rayh> Great sport.
[00:40:24] <gezr> paul_c : na, had to go up and see him, and get a chainsaw
[00:40:50] <rayh> Does anyone know if configure works with emc1 and 2.20b?
[00:41:11] <paul_c> No it doesn't
[00:41:42] <paul_c> I just hacked it for rtai.
[00:42:11] <rayh> Darn.
[00:42:16] <paul_c> Headlines: Man on motorcycle with chainsaw hunted.
[00:42:25] <gezr> hahahahaha
[00:43:15] <gezr> man working on motorcycle confuses drive shaft with his own, doctors working hard to fix the piston
[00:43:20] <paul_c> rayh: Maybe I'll boot bdi-2 up and give it a go.
[00:43:32] <paul_c> Shouldn't take much.
[00:43:36] <rayh> I'll try it here in a few minutes.
[00:43:50] <rayh> Working a test on live rc46 at the moment.
[00:44:21] <paul_c> gezr: I still have ops ;�
[00:50:30] <paul_c> OK. Time for bed. Catch you all in the morning.
[00:51:05] <rayh> see you.
[00:51:48] <Imperator_> cu
[01:16:54] <les> anyone home?
[01:18:27] <les> oh well...later
[01:30:57] <anonimasu> yes
[01:47:37] <roel> hi
[01:51:49] <anonimasu> :)
[02:11:48] <roel> i'm off bye
[07:26:35] <asdfqwega> Jymmm: If you're still about, you can ask robin_sz or myself about the diff between Co2 and YAG lasers
[07:27:08] <Jymmm> Inquiring minds want to know
[07:27:48] <Jymmm> I have it that CO2 are "general purpose" but nor sure on the YAG
[07:28:28] <asdfqwega> Oh, you're here :)
[07:29:10] <asdfqwega> Okay, besides the working requirements of solid state vs. gaseous lasers...
[07:29:25] <asdfqwega> Co2 has a much longer wavelength than YAG
[07:29:31] <Jymmm> ok so YAG is solid state?
[07:31:07] <asdfqwega> YAG is a cousin of the ruby laser - it uses a solid rod of YAG, pumped by externel flashlamps, arc lamps, or diode lasers
[07:32:01] <asdfqwega> You'd have to look up what YAG is - All I can remember is Yttrium-something-something
[07:32:10] <Jymmm> that's fine
[07:32:26] <Jymmm> dont care about its make as much as it potential
[07:32:32] <Jymmm> makeup
[07:32:40] <asdfqwega> BUT - that difference in wavelength makes all the difference in what you can use it on
[07:33:09] <Jymmm> I have an opportunity to buy a yag over a co2. but I dont know what my limitations/benefits are
[07:33:26] <asdfqwega> co2 is very good for use on organic or carbon-based compounds - wood, rubber, etc
[07:34:19] <asdfqwega> YAG is better on metals than a co2
[07:35:00] <Jymmm> ok, a 40watt CO2 cut thru 1/4" soft wood. what could a 40watt yag do?
[07:35:15] <asdfqwega> robin_sz uses YAG, I work with co2
[07:35:37] <Jymmm> yours is 10watt, isn't it?
[07:35:55] <asdfqwega> Yeah, and I'm cutting through 1/4" hardwoods
[07:36:18] <Jymmm> with 10watts? how clean/slow is that? how is it on acrylic?
[07:37:31] <asdfqwega> Right now I'm just using a homemade 3-axis stepper-driven router to move the laser around, I don't have the IPM to really work on acryllic
[07:37:47] <Jymmm> ipm?
[07:37:51] <Jymmm> oh inches
[07:38:05] <asdfqwega> For frosting and stuff
[07:38:10] <Jymmm> so you cant travel fast enough?
[07:38:24] <asdfqwega> I can cut it - low power multiple passes
[07:38:40] <Jymmm> ewwwwwwww
[07:38:42] <asdfqwega> The problem is heat buildup
[07:38:47] <Jymmm> yeah
[07:38:58] <Jymmm> you need more power and a faster travel
[07:39:17] <Jymmm> what kind of screws are you using?
[07:39:29] <asdfqwega> Well, 10W would be OK with a faster machine - I'm working on building a flying optics table
[07:39:54] <Jymmm> you using belts and whatnot?
[07:39:56] <asdfqwega> 3/8"-10 ACME
[07:40:20] <Jymmm> 3/8"-10 isnt' very fast is it?
[07:40:20] <asdfqwega> I'm going to be using belts on the 2nd-gen machine
[07:40:38] <asdfqwega> 25 IPM max
[07:40:45] <Jymmm> ewwwww
[07:41:03] <Jymmm> how come so slow?
[07:41:25] <asdfqwega> What are you going 'ewwwww' for?
[07:41:44] <Jymmm> it's slow
[07:42:07] <A-L-P-H-A> anyone want some randomness? http://bash.org/?460408
[07:42:31] <Jymmm> asdfqwega: I'm not doing milling, just router/laser
[07:43:07] <Jymmm> asdfqwega: I'm also considering fiber instead of mirrors.
[07:43:29] <asdfqwega> With co2, you can only use mirrors
[07:43:36] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, found a LAAAAser [austin powers]
[07:43:49] <asdfqwega> With YAG, you can use fiber
[07:44:13] <Jymmm> asdfqwega: Thus my inq to Yag's
[07:44:45] <A-L-P-H-A> I hope that reference wasn't lost upon all.
[07:45:15] <asdfqwega> ALPHA: You have to do the "finger quotes in the air" to complete the effect
[07:45:23] <Jymmm> lol
[07:46:23] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't know how do do the fingers on irc. :/
[07:46:49] <Jymmm> ,.|..
[07:46:51] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, so you found a <finger emphasis motion> LAAAAser </finger emphasis motion>
[07:47:06] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A working on it
[07:53:12] <asdfqwega> ALPHA: bash.org - heh, I've heard all these before
[07:55:01] <asdfqwega> ALPHA: Let's see if you know this one: "Let me put on my wizard hat."
[07:55:49] <A-L-P-H-A> sounds like a line from family guy... but I don't know.
[07:56:24] <asdfqwega> Oooh, let me find the link
[07:56:40] <A-L-P-H-A> http://bash.org/?1988 hahahaha
[08:05:43] <asdfqwega> ALPHA: Can't find the specific link, but you can google 'bloodninja wizard hat'
[08:05:45] <asdfqwega> http://www.programmingforums.org/forum/archive/index.php?t-969.html
[08:06:16] <asdfqwega> cybering gone horribly WRONG, heheheheh
[08:08:15] <A-L-P-H-A> OMG! I read that long long time ago
[08:08:18] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega rocks to some Stone Ale and :wumpscut:
[08:09:04] <asdfqwega> You did? How could you forget the wizard hat?!
[08:13:46] <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega, years ago
[08:26:06] <asdfqwega> It's been a couple years since I last read about Bloodninja - I'm surprised nobody's hunted him down and shot him
[08:34:16] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega puts on some Hawksley Workman
[08:40:08] <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega, I just read some more recent ones.
[08:40:22] <A-L-P-H-A> I haven't read the other stuff, just read them now.
[08:40:27] <A-L-P-H-A> so funny odd shit.
[08:55:14] <asdfqwega> http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/laserburn.html
[08:55:29] <asdfqwega> I like the warning label
[09:02:27] <asdfqwega> Whoo-hoo! Hot shit! 2'x3'x6" granite plate for $100?! I'm driving up there right now!
[11:18:12] <anonimasu> hm..
[12:35:36] <les> hi paul
[12:35:46] <les> ha finally got fred to respond
[12:36:21] <paul_c> yup - and the last post triggered a couple of emails from the moderator.
[12:36:48] <les> I did not think it was all that off topic really
[12:37:30] <asdfqwega> I haven't read CCED in months - anything worth looking over?
[12:37:40] <les> A free hard real time operating system is kinda on topic
[12:37:45] <paul_c> should have pointed out the involvement of IBM, HP, and a number of other companies...
[12:38:12] <les> just silly stuff asdfqwega
[12:38:15] <paul_c> Then there are outfits like Pixar running linux for apps that M$ can only dream of....
[12:38:23] <les> did you get that surface plate?
[12:38:38] <asdfqwega> Are they still doing flame wars over stepper vs. servo?
[12:39:06] <asdfqwega> les: Not yet. I have to check to see if I can wedge it into the back of my wagon
[12:39:13] <les> off and on
[12:39:24] <asdfqwega> IF I can pick it up :/
[12:39:42] <les> I think those low cost plates are b grade..but you can lap them even better
[12:40:02] <les> if you make a home made autocollimator
[12:40:15] <asdfqwega> No, this is a used plate - but I'm going to use it as a machine base
[12:40:16] <les> still b grade is pretty good
[12:40:49] <les> I have one b grade and one lab grade...and a lab grade granite square
[12:41:22] <asdfqwega> I have a 9"x12" I grade B, I think
[12:41:40] <les> actually not granite...at least the black ones
[12:42:00] <asdfqwega> Oh? What's the black ones made of?
[12:42:43] <les> a low silica mineral...hang on let me get the geological name
[12:42:58] <asdfqwega> paul_c: My brother is going to get a tour of Pixar when he leaves to go to E^3
[12:44:40] <asdfqwega> les: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=03-534-017
[12:46:25] <asdfqwega> Well, I gotta get just a bit more sleep - or food, or something
[12:57:38] <les> diabase is the mineral that most plates are made of
[12:57:58] <les> a type od gabbro
[12:58:01] <les> of
[12:58:26] <les> differs from granite in that it has little quartz and mica
[12:58:47] <les> Starret pink plates are granite though
[12:59:09] <les> starett
[13:05:52] <les> well off for some breakfast for me
[13:05:56] <les> back later
[13:08:31] <paul_c> * paul_c updates the debian/emc repository.
[13:44:24] <anonimasu> hm
[13:44:41] <anonimasu> I got shot at yesterday night
[13:46:47] <anonimasu> although with a airgun..
[14:36:59] <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
[14:37:06] <SWPadnos> Hi there
[14:38:06] <anonimasu> hey SWPadnos
[14:38:24] <SWPadnos> anonimasu: hey there
[14:38:47] <SWPadnos> Who was the nut chooting at you with the airgun?
[14:38:56] <SWPadnos> shooting
[14:39:09] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: no idea..
[14:39:31] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: was from some balcony..
[14:39:46] <anonimasu> if it would have passed through the windshield it would most likely have hit me in a lung..
[14:39:47] <SWPadnos> ah - where do you live?
[14:39:51] <anonimasu> north sweden..
[14:39:56] <anonimasu> in a small town..
[14:40:09] <SWPadnos> weird (right - you were talking about prices in SEK)
[14:40:21] <anonimasu> * anonimasu isnt feeling too happy about it
[14:40:34] <SWPadnos> no, I'd imagine not
[14:41:24] <SWPadnos> well - I got a cool thing wokring
[14:41:51] <SWPadnos> I can now use both terminal and X-windows apps on the CNC machine, from my Windows machine
[14:41:51] <anonimasu> tell me about it
[14:41:57] <SWPadnos> (with 3 big monitors)
[14:41:59] <anonimasu> ah nice
[14:42:05] <anonimasu> running cygwin?
[14:42:28] <SWPadnos> yep - Cygwin + Cygwin-X
[14:42:35] <anonimasu> nice
[14:42:57] <SWPadnos> I was just happy to get SSH access turned on, and X sort of came for free :)
[14:43:04] <anonimasu> I am in need of a second monitor someday soon
[14:43:09] <SWPadnos> I
[14:43:14] <anonimasu> but it will set me back a fair ammount of cash
[14:43:21] <SWPadnos> I'm starating to think I can't live with less real estate.
[14:43:29] <SWPadnos> I have 3 19" monitors at 1280x1024
[14:43:34] <anonimasu> I have one atm..
[14:43:47] <paul_c> * paul_c hugs the four 17" screens
[14:43:55] <anonimasu> I have another 19.. but it's a crt..
[14:44:05] <SWPadnos> (miiltiple cards - ick)
[14:44:14] <anonimasu> I am thinking of buying a eizo 19" tft..
[14:44:14] <anonimasu> :)
[14:44:19] <anonimasu> a good screen..
[14:44:23] <SWPadnos> I'm using only CRT at the moment
[14:44:26] <anonimasu> and use my lg that I have now as secondary..
[14:44:36] <anonimasu> I cant like with thoose anymore, they gleam so much
[14:44:38] <SWPadnos> The Eizo supercolor ones (or whatever they call them)?
[14:44:58] <SWPadnos> Those are pretty amazing for image quality
[14:45:01] <anonimasu> I only have 2 outs on the laptop I use as workstation..
[14:45:02] <anonimasu> :)
[14:45:32] <SWPadnos> right. I have a dual-DVI card (Matrox Parhelia), and I may change to 2x 1600x1200 LCD
[14:45:43] <SWPadnos> It's almost the same number of pixels
[14:45:49] <anonimasu> :)
[14:46:07] <anonimasu> good screens are expensive :)
[14:46:34] <SWPadnos> yes - have you seen the IBM T221?
[14:46:43] <anonimasu> no
[14:46:59] <SWPadnos> $7500 or so, 3840x2400 resolution, 22 inch.
[14:47:10] <anonimasu> but if you spend ~12 hours a day at a monitor.. they have to be good
[14:47:19] <SWPadnos> it's *UN*believable
[14:47:37] <anonimasu> hm, isnt the resolution too high?
[14:48:00] <anonimasu> or does it match nicely with the size?
[14:48:08] <SWPadnos> yeah - 200 pixels per inch. You have to use a real OS that can handle that kind of thing (like NextStep or OS/2:) )
[14:48:54] <SWPadnos> :)
[14:48:54] <anonimasu> linux + xorg ;)
[14:49:21] <anonimasu> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8578
[14:49:22] <anonimasu> lol
[14:49:28] <SWPadnos> True - I think Linux + some system with SVG or something would work OK.
[14:49:34] <anonimasu> l in order to get the 3840x2400 native resolution, you'd need, according to IBM, at least two DVI connections from a single card at once (to get just 21 Hz refresh by the way) or four to get 41Hz refresh.
[14:49:59] <SWPadnos> Right - they have a version with a Matrox card included :)
[14:50:16] <SWPadnos> Refresh isn't as big a deal on LCD
[14:50:20] <anonimasu> but well, refresh is less cruical on a tft/lcd..
[14:50:29] <anonimasu> they dont scan the same way as crt's do :)
[14:50:37] <SWPadnos> no, indeed
[14:50:43] <anonimasu> at 60hz you never see anything on a tft.. �'
[14:50:46] <anonimasu> while a crt is flashing ;)
[14:51:22] <SWPadnos> and the TFT would never update, since the transition speed is usually between 25 and 40 ms
[14:51:35] <SWPadnos> (faster ones are now in the 16 ms range)
[15:02:10] <anonimasu> yep
[15:04:13] <rayh> Martin K -- the latest config writer sent me some xmlish stuff.
[15:04:39] <rayh> I put it on the wiki page http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EmcConfig
[15:05:12] <anonimasu> nice
[15:06:47] <SWPadnos> too bad I misnamed the KBuildConfig page - it really doesn't look much like KBuild
[15:06:55] <rayh> I like the idea of start of var and end of var markup.
[15:07:11] <rayh> That way we can use most any text between.
[15:07:20] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:07:44] <SWPadnos> Also, it makes the start and end explicit in the text, not implicit in the formatting
[15:07:48] <rayh> The help stuff might be several paragraphs long and include references to images.
[15:07:50] <SWPadnos> (line ends, for example)
[15:08:11] <rayh> I struggled with line end and it can get messy.
[15:08:36] <SWPadnos> Yeas. Images can also be included - an XML-ish file is meant for data transport, after all
[15:08:45] <SWPadnos> (it would be like multipart MIME emails)
[15:09:05] <rayh> Do you think that <var> is the best </var> is the best way to mark.
[15:09:35] <rayh> It is rather easy to search in tickle.
[15:09:51] <rayh> I presume that it would also be rather easy to search in python.
[15:10:09] <SWPadnos> and perfectly easy for a SGML / XML / HTML library to pick up
[15:10:56] <SWPadnos> (hurry - make a decision before Jymmm gets back :) )
[15:11:20] <rayh> wannavote?
[15:11:24] <SWPadnos> Aye
[15:11:31] <anonimasu> * anonimasu goes Yes
[15:11:35] <anonimasu> *grins*
[15:12:37] <rayh> Okay. That is a resounding majority. I'm using the current definitions of democracy<g>
[15:12:55] <SWPadnos> Ah - wait until the opposition is asleep, then vote :)
[15:13:17] <anonimasu> I dont get why jymm is so extremely aginst xml..
[15:13:20] <anonimasu> or xml-ish
[15:13:25] <rayh> Martin was going to test his stuff with python. I'll test a bit with tickle and we should have the basic outline.
[15:14:05] <rayh> I like the freedom of not using a DTD. We trust the developers to manage the master doc.
[15:14:22] <paul_c> rayh: The last "xml way" is close to what I envisaged....
[15:14:38] <rayh> * rayh takes another look.
[15:15:24] <SWPadnos> if one of us gets ambitious, there could be a DTD, and that's the advantage
[15:15:46] <anonimasu> DTD?
[15:16:07] <rayh> I'll trust you to know the DTD applicability.
[15:16:41] <rayh> Document Type Definition
[15:16:55] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos on the phone - argh
[15:17:05] <anonimasu> yeah
[15:17:13] <rayh> It is a kind of template that defines acceptable entries in the master doc.
[15:17:23] <anonimasu> that's what I envisioned the xml-ish file to be..
[15:18:10] <rayh> The last style that martin put in is on its head from what I was thinking but I can live with it.
[15:18:42] <alex_joni> greetings everybody
[15:18:55] <anonimasu> hello alex
[15:19:06] <alex_joni> hey an0n
[15:19:40] <SWPadnos> hi there
[15:19:49] <alex_joni> hey SWP
[15:19:54] <rayh> Hi Alex.
[15:20:03] <alex_joni> hey rayh
[15:20:11] <alex_joni> kinda crowded in here ;)
[15:20:19] <alex_joni> could get interesting..
[15:20:25] <SWPadnos> we need a bigger bus
[15:21:02] <alex_joni> databus?
[15:21:08] <alex_joni> addressbus?
[15:21:11] <alex_joni> or microbus?
[15:21:12] <SWPadnos> sure - that'll work
[15:21:23] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos gets another phone call
[15:22:47] <rayh> Are we happy with the innermost element using eol as it's end?
[15:22:53] <alex_joni> rayh: wanna get busy?
[15:22:57] <alex_joni> eol?
[15:23:04] <alex_joni> end of line?
[15:23:14] <rayh> Yep.
[15:23:21] <rayh> Yep.
[15:23:30] <SWPadnos> I don't think so - the innermost element might be a paragraph of help text
[15:24:13] <rayh> Yes and the logic to sort that out would have to be applied from outside of the file itself.
[15:24:31] <alex_joni> not necessary
[15:24:40] <alex_joni> you can have the paragraph on one line
[15:24:46] <alex_joni> and wrap it later in the help box
[15:25:05] <rayh> I was thinking of a multiparagraph help with embedded images.
[15:25:16] <SWPadnos> unless there's formatting in the text (like two paragraphs :) )
[15:25:35] <alex_joni> <br> :P
[15:25:56] <alex_joni> rayh: html would be great for help
[15:26:05] <alex_joni> it's got all elements already sorted out
[15:26:06] <SWPadnos> It night not be good to mix <things>
[15:26:13] <alex_joni> ;)
[15:26:19] <SWPadnos> (ie, some are part of an element, others are control information
[15:26:32] <alex_joni> how about special codes?
[15:26:36] <SWPadnos> defining the element )
[15:26:38] <alex_joni> <<control>>
[15:26:41] <alex_joni> <html>
[15:27:10] <rayh> In tk I wouldn't see a problem with <help-units> and a switch to html </help-units>
[15:27:22] <SWPadnos> that may get ugly, but it might be OK if the paragraph text has <HTML> </HTML> tags in it...
[15:27:36] <rayh> Sure.
[15:28:08] <alex_joni> ok.. lets decide some stuff.. or else the whole thing will go on for weeks
[15:28:09] <SWPadnos> <HelpForThisItem><HTML>This is <b>Some></b> help!</HTML></HelpForThisItem>
[15:28:16] <alex_joni> right
[15:28:18] <rayh> A strict xml parser might have a bitch of a time with it.
[15:28:23] <alex_joni> 1. master file
[15:28:35] <alex_joni> rayh: the xml parser can be 20 lines of code
[15:28:40] <SWPadnos> It should allow encapsulation at the <item></Item> level
[15:28:49] <rayh> You bet.
[15:28:56] <alex_joni> ok... so we want 1 master file
[15:29:00] <rayh> And only one master file.
[15:29:07] <alex_joni> which defines all valid elements
[15:29:14] <rayh> No matter how big it gets.
[15:29:15] <alex_joni> along with values permitted for each element
[15:29:30] <alex_joni> dropdown list, range, whatever
[15:29:38] <rayh> I'm thinking data as well as format in that file.
[15:29:51] <alex_joni> type of the element (string, int, float, bool)
[15:30:06] <alex_joni> ok.. now besides that master we need the actual data
[15:30:14] <alex_joni> which can be: 1. in the same file
[15:30:20] <alex_joni> 2. in a different file
[15:30:26] <alex_joni> 3. in actual .ini files
[15:30:54] <SWPadnos> if the master file contains all possible configurations, then the configurator should easily be able to make a separate file (.ini, probably)
[15:31:02] <rayh> I see the .ini being the product of the configuration program.
[15:31:17] <alex_joni> and I agree
[15:31:21] <rayh> rather than a part of the data itself.
[15:31:28] <SWPadnos> right - and it only includes those sections necessary for the hardware / drivers selected
[15:31:31] <alex_joni> but. the question is... can it read an ini?
[15:31:42] <alex_joni> or should it read another data pool?
[15:31:54] <SWPadnos> Ah - for modification of configurations
[15:31:59] <SWPadnos> there's the trouble :)
[15:32:02] <rayh> Ah. It must be able to do that in order to take an existing and modify it.
[15:32:09] <alex_joni> right
[15:32:17] <rayh> I did that in my first config program.
[15:32:29] <SWPadnos> and you can't output two files, because you can't be sure that a user won't edit the .ini
[15:32:32] <rayh> It would be a sort of reverse engineering thing.
[15:33:07] <SWPadnos> There should also be a command-line "is this .ini valid" function
[15:33:08] <rayh> Generate a set of defaults from the ini it reads.
[15:33:41] <rayh> Yes I suppose the defaults from that ini should be run through the "rules" engine.
[15:33:43] <SWPadnos> Actually - it should be pretty easy - it's a simple lookup /. see if it's in the options test
[15:34:08] <alex_joni> right
[15:34:11] <SWPadnos> The master file will need to have the key/value names anyway so it can generate the .ini file
[15:34:35] <alex_joni> ok.. let's try an example
[15:34:44] <SWPadnos> so every setting has an <INISECTION> and <ININAME> property as well
[15:34:55] <alex_joni> P - for axis_1
[15:35:50] <rayh> I see P - for axis_1 as a generated thing rather than a master or data thing.
[15:36:30] <rayh> P - for axis is a data thing.
[15:36:44] <rayh> It has a minval of 0 or 1
[15:37:01] <rayh> and maxval of somethiing approaching infinity.
[15:37:15] <SWPadnos> and type: float
[15:37:22] <rayh> yes.
[15:37:33] <SWPadnos> and status: required
[15:37:50] <SWPadnos> (or something other than status)
[15:38:00] <rayh> If axis any status required.
[15:38:11] <SWPadnos> ?
[15:38:26] <rayh> I can imagine someone building an emc with no axis definitions.
[15:38:49] <SWPadnos> right - P is part of an axis definition, if there's an axis, there needs to be a P term
[15:38:54] <rayh> It becomes a simple PLC or some such animal.
[15:39:09] <alex_joni> <element><sections>axis_0,axis_1,axis_2,axis_3,axis_4,axis_5</sections><ininame>P</ininame><value type=float spec=range>0-100000</value><status>required</status><help><html>This is the proportional gain for this axis....</html></help></element>
[15:39:27] <SWPadnos> Actually, do the axis definitions change depending on the kinematics module being used?
[15:39:40] <rayh> No.
[15:39:44] <alex_joni> kinematics is a different fish
[15:40:04] <alex_joni> the joint is there (independent of kins), you still need PID for that motor, etc
[15:40:14] <alex_joni> you don't have PID on XYZ, but on joints
[15:40:19] <rayh> All axis definitions are "joint" rather than world.
[15:40:25] <SWPadnos> right - it's the joints that need PID, not the axis
[15:40:52] <rayh> aside- I was looking for some help with world limits but didn't get anywhere.
[15:41:20] <SWPadnos> what's the issue?
[15:41:37] <alex_joni> max_float units
[15:41:39] <rayh> joint limits are of limited value because the singularities are a product of multiple joints in the pose.
[15:42:26] <rayh> </aside>
[15:43:28] <rayh> Are we ready to strip out the unused examples and establish a single markup pattern in the wiki.
[15:43:36] <SWPadnos> OK by me
[15:43:37] <alex_joni> sure rayh
[15:43:46] <alex_joni> who goes first?
[15:44:02] <rayh> You. I'll watch.
[15:44:45] <SWPadnos> I'll make the KBuildConfig page refer people back to the EMCConfig page (only)
[15:44:58] <alex_joni> bummer ;)
[15:45:02] <alex_joni> I have to work
[15:45:04] <alex_joni> ...
[15:45:13] <alex_joni> right ;)
[15:45:17] <rayh> You bet. It's to early in the morning to work here.
[15:45:58] <dave-e> what do you mean ray...you've been up for hours. ;-)
[15:45:59] <rayh> We thinking two files -- emc_config_master and emc_config_data -- or can we make it all one.
[15:46:28] <rayh> * rayh right and I'm going for a cup of coffee.
[15:46:35] <SWPadnos> good plan - brb
[15:48:47] <rayh> Whoa. Beautiful snow falling out there. Flakes up to about 10mm.
[15:49:21] <alex_joni> cool
[15:49:27] <alex_joni> we have snow too.. but it melts
[15:49:35] <alex_joni> and it'll freeze over the night.. not so good ;)
[15:49:39] <alex_joni> ok.. now
[15:49:41] <SteveStallings> Metric snow, must be coming down from Canada.
[15:49:46] <alex_joni> which xml format will we use?
[15:50:07] <alex_joni> there are 3 types in the wiki
[15:50:13] <paul_c> a simple one (I hope)
[15:50:28] <alex_joni> paul_c: that's one of the goals ;)
[15:50:43] <rayh> KIS
[15:50:50] <SWPadnos> S
[15:50:53] <alex_joni> even KISS ;)
[15:51:02] <SWPadnos> (he's just being nice :) )
[15:51:08] <alex_joni> always
[15:51:32] <alex_joni> right.. so the dataflow should resemble the .ini?
[15:51:57] <SWPadnos> It should probably be more hierarchical
[15:52:17] <SWPadnos> you'll need to select a motion driver, then the parameters that are specific to that driver
[15:52:25] <SWPadnos> then hardware, and its' parameters, etc.
[15:53:14] <alex_joni> so it'll be more like a wizard, than an graphic frontend to an ini
[15:53:42] <SWPadnos> well - I keep thinking a KBuild interface would be ideal (even if the underlying file format isn't that)
[15:54:09] <SWPadnos> there are things missing from KBuild though - like mutually exclusive seelctions
[15:54:13] <SWPadnos> (radio buttons)
[15:54:28] <rayh> * rayh is on the phone for a bit.
[15:57:27] <SWPadnos> alex_joni: are you editing the wiki page right now?
[15:57:41] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is thinking ,)
[15:57:49] <SWPadnos> sorry to interrupt :)
[15:57:49] <alex_joni> that's a tough process...
[15:57:58] <alex_joni> you can go ahead and edit
[15:58:11] <alex_joni> I'll make a local copy first, and paste it later
[15:58:12] <SWPadnos> OK - I'll strip out the non-XML-ish things
[15:58:15] <SWPadnos> OK
[15:58:17] <alex_joni> right
[16:01:37] <paul_c> * paul_c adds a comment to the xml config page.
[16:03:13] <SWPadnos> I think I envision having an <include> tag, so that configs for additional drivers can be added easily
[16:05:01] <alex_joni> paul_c: right (about your comment)
[16:06:22] <SWPadnos> there are machine options, which decide which module options are needed (by chosing a particular module in the "general" section)
[16:06:41] <alex_joni> and those could be in separate files
[16:06:44] <alex_joni> or sections
[16:06:55] <alex_joni> <include freqmod.options>
[16:06:56] <SWPadnos> rihgt - hence my desire for an <include>
[16:07:21] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is concentrating on general stuff for now
[16:07:22] <SWPadnos> the driver (or directory) has a configuration file (a la KBuild :) )
[16:07:24] <rayh> good stuff. We've gotten beyond the markup and are beginning to look at the structure of the whole file.
[16:07:32] <SWPadnos> woohoo
[16:07:39] <alex_joni> we put the markup on hold ;)
[16:08:31] <SWPadnos> So, the machine has several parameters: which display to use, which motion driver (if any), what kinematics (if any), and what hardware
[16:08:38] <SWPadnos> (general parameters)
[16:09:27] <SWPadnos> plus others (line RS274 interpreter, vs. a ladder module, for example)
[16:09:49] <alex_joni> I see it like this:
[16:09:52] <alex_joni> there's EMC
[16:09:57] <alex_joni> there (can be) HAL
[16:10:03] <alex_joni> there can be CL
[16:10:14] <rayh> I still think that the specific machine and it's specific selections from the possibles not a part of either the master or the data file.
[16:10:39] <SWPadnos> master has to have the options listed
[16:11:13] <alex_joni> I see the master as a list of rules
[16:11:24] <rayh> Some vars will overlap
[16:11:33] <alex_joni> like: DISPLAY .. can be one of the following: tkemc, mini, axis, ...
[16:11:45] <SWPadnos> the overlap is incidental - the vars need to be specified wherever they're needed
[16:11:48] <alex_joni> MACHINE: can be a string (limited to x chars)
[16:13:32] <alex_joni> EMCMOT (inside EMCMOT section) can be one of the following: freqmod (in that case include freqmod.rules), steppermod (include steppermod.rules), etc.
[16:13:56] <rayh> Right. I like that a lot.
[16:14:10] <rayh> It reads a lot like the existing ini file.
[16:14:25] <alex_joni> that's what I am going for
[16:14:32] <SWPadnos> <aside>it's interesting to see how the software should be partitioned, when you start talking about how the configuration information should be arranged :) </aside>
[16:14:51] <rayh> Isn't that the truth.
[16:14:59] <alex_joni> the basic structure would be like the existing inifile (at least the emc-part of it)
[16:15:26] <rayh> You can also see how convoluted it got as things got added in.
[16:15:27] <alex_joni> if (when) we extend it to emc2 it would furtheron include the hal stuff
[16:15:40] <alex_joni> how does this sound:
[16:15:48] <paul_c> * paul_c adds more.
[16:15:50] <alex_joni> <emcconfig>
[16:15:50] <alex_joni>
[16:15:50] <alex_joni> <!-- emc basic configuration -->
[16:15:50] <alex_joni> <app name=emc>
[16:15:50] <alex_joni> <conf_file_name><value type=string></value></conf_file_name>
[16:16:00] <SWPadnos> talking about shared parameters, with an include directive, you can reuse an "axis" or a "display" variable set by having small files that are included from the module files
[16:16:01] <alex_joni> <section name=EMC>
[16:16:01] <alex_joni> <element><ininame>VERSION</ininame><value type=string></value><help>INI-File version</help></element>
[16:16:01] <alex_joni> <element><ininame>MACHINE</ininame><value type=string></value><help>Describe your machine here</help></element>
[16:16:01] <alex_joni> <element><ininame>DEBUG</ininame><value type=list>none,low,medium,high,very-high</value></element>
[16:16:02] <rayh> Exactly and the CL stuff as well although one or more CL ladders might be separate files.
[16:16:08] <alex_joni> <element><ininame>RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE</ininame><value type=string></value><help>Put startup codes for your machine here (e.g: G20 for mm)</help></element>
[16:16:09] <alex_joni> </section>
[16:16:22] <SWPadnos> (CL?)
[16:16:32] <alex_joni> CL=classic ladder
[16:16:36] <SWPadnos> ah - thanks
[16:16:56] <paul_c> Why does variable types have to be in the xml definition ??
[16:17:08] <SWPadnos> so the data can be validated
[16:17:24] <SWPadnos> (by a program that isn't hard-coded to know that a P value is a float)
[16:17:30] <alex_joni> the xml definition is like a set of rules
[16:18:10] <paul_c> so how well will the validation handle hex or octal notation ?
[16:18:11] <alex_joni> it's supposed to be read by a "dumb" (sorry rayh ;) configurator who, based on this file, allows the user to create a config file
[16:18:30] <alex_joni> the types described there are made up
[16:18:36] <SWPadnos> we can add our own tags thouhg, so you would say <parameter name="P" type="float">Proportional coefficient</parameter>
[16:18:51] <alex_joni> right
[16:19:09] <alex_joni> or... type=hex
[16:19:32] <SWPadnos> the validator will need to know all types that could be in the file
[16:19:40] <rayh> Perhaps we can coin a new guiding principle KISFAT. (Keep It Simple For Aunt Tillie)
[16:19:56] <paul_c> the ini file is a plain old text file. The xml file is also a plain text file.
[16:20:16] <paul_c> treat everything as 'riggin strings.
[16:20:20] <SWPadnos> KISFATASS: Keep It Simple For Aunt Tilly, As She's Stupid :)
[16:20:42] <rayh> Okay!
[16:20:44] <alex_joni> <element><ininame>BASE_ADDRESS</ininame><value type=hex></value><help>The base address of your hardware goes here. Usual values are 0x378, but you should check the output of cat /dev/ioports to make sure</help></element>
[16:21:12] <rayh> I"m in agreement with the strings notion so long as we have start and ending markers.
[16:21:28] <paul_c> base address could just as easily be an integer
[16:21:51] <alex_joni> paul_c: don't see Aunt Tilly converting from int to hex and back
[16:21:55] <SWPadnos> a type of "integer" could allow any avlid integer format
[16:22:01] <SWPadnos> valid
[16:22:09] <alex_joni> like hex?
[16:22:13] <rayh> In that case we would need to convert in some places and not others.
[16:22:21] <SWPadnos> if it's not decimal, octal, hex, or binary, it's not a valid integer
[16:22:34] <alex_joni> SWP: why would you want that?
[16:22:42] <alex_joni> BASE_ADDRESS is supposed to be hex
[16:22:55] <SWPadnos> use the "standard" conventions for integers - if it has 0x or $ in front, check for hex
[16:22:58] <alex_joni> and MIN_LIMIT is supposed to be decimal
[16:23:10] <SWPadnos> MIN_MINIT is a float
[16:23:16] <alex_joni> float
[16:23:18] <alex_joni> whatever ;)
[16:23:35] <SWPadnos> OK - but not an integer type (though it will probably have an integer value)
[16:23:41] <alex_joni> you could have floats expressed as hex :P
[16:23:46] <SteveStallings> OK, I am slowly coming out of the fog of my post birthday hangover and am wondering.... is the goal to have configuration editor that reads rules and provides a gui to edit the ini (or equiv file) while enforcing the rules?
[16:24:00] <alex_joni> yes
[16:24:01] <paul_c> exactly my point - The data tpes are implied by the names, so there is no point in coding them in to the xml.
[16:24:11] <rayh> And I confess that I used both without any identifier in some tickle code we use.
[16:24:25] <alex_joni> paul_c: in that case you need to hardcode it in the confgurator
[16:25:32] <paul_c> no you don't. It is hard coded in the ini parser.
[16:25:54] <alex_joni> well the configurator is the iniparser
[16:26:04] <alex_joni> it outputs the ini (or reads it)
[16:26:19] <rayh> No.
[16:26:21] <paul_c> for example - "0" - can be parsed as a float, int, hex, or bool.
[16:26:24] <alex_joni> no?
[16:26:36] <SteveStallings> .. but the real system will also need to parse the ini file, hopefully by using some of the same code.
[16:26:38] <SWPadnos> that's why the type is needed
[16:26:42] <rayh> We need separation between the data file which is all possible variants of each var.
[16:27:01] <rayh> And the final product of a configurator.
[16:27:17] <SWPadnos> right - this will need to be an inifile reader/writer
[16:27:22] <alex_joni> hey john
[16:27:24] <rayh> All of these rules need to be in the data but not applied.
[16:27:29] <SWPadnos> with the additional functionality of checking the values for validity
[16:27:43] <SWPadnos> and allowing easy (GUI) setting of those parameters
[16:27:56] <jmkasunich> morning guys
[16:27:59] <alex_joni> hmm..I was thinking of the following scenario
[16:28:01] <SWPadnos> morning
[16:28:18] <alex_joni> the configurator (GUI) reads the master definition file (filled with rules)
[16:28:20] <SteveStallings> With all the code out there, isn't there something that will handle this type of job?
[16:28:26] <SWPadnos> yes
[16:28:28] <alex_joni> and presents the user options to chose from
[16:28:32] <SWPadnos> (but not exactly)
[16:28:40] <alex_joni> and the user can fill up stuff based on those rules
[16:28:53] <alex_joni> if it says hex.. he can't edit int in that field
[16:28:59] <alex_joni> simply because the GUI won't allow it
[16:29:15] <alex_joni> when he's done the data entered is 100% valid
[16:29:36] <alex_joni> and it only needs to be written to a file (based on the sections and ininames)
[16:30:11] <SWPadnos> or read from an ini, if the user is modifying a configuration
[16:30:29] <rayh> and on stuff the integrator enters like number of axes and kinematics and such.
[16:30:45] <alex_joni> that too.. but during reading the data gets validated by the same rules
[16:30:51] <SWPadnos> right
[16:31:03] <SWPadnos> and invalid entries can be flagged in the GUI
[16:31:06] <alex_joni> rayh: right
[16:31:12] <SWPadnos> (ie, missing P value on an axis
[16:31:14] <SWPadnos> )
[16:31:55] <rayh> I'm not certain I understand where this fits into the scheme but ...
[16:32:21] <jmkasunich> SWP just said "missing P value on an axis"
[16:32:23] <rayh> EMC1 anyway has a whole set of default values that it uses if none is found in the ini
[16:32:30] <jmkasunich> what if an axis is a stepper and doesn't need P
[16:32:41] <jmkasunich> will the rules be
[16:32:44] <jmkasunich> oops
[16:32:49] <jmkasunich> be "aware" of that?
[16:32:51] <SWPadnos> then it wouldn't be marked "required" in the config validation information :)
[16:32:58] <rayh> I believe that freqmod still requires the tuning variables from servos.
[16:33:05] <alex_joni> freqmod does
[16:33:11] <alex_joni> steppermod doesn't
[16:33:13] <jmkasunich> thinking ahead to emc2 - stepgen doesn't
[16:33:24] <rayh> True.
[16:33:46] <SWPadnos> the stepgen module definition then wouldn't have that parameter in the specification
[16:34:06] <rayh> John. Can we look ahead to HAL integration by thinking of stepgen as a "section" in the ini
[16:34:19] <jmkasunich> my "paradigm" for emc2 is that "motor control" is separated out from the core of the motion controller
[16:34:31] <SWPadnos> I think it would be an <include FILE="stepgen.val"> line
[16:34:45] <alex_joni> if stepgen has been selected
[16:34:47] <jmkasunich> PID, or stepgen, or whatever, is a motor control function, not a motion control function
[16:35:16] <jmkasunich> something like "stepgen.val" makes sense
[16:35:34] <SWPadnos> .val-idation files
[16:35:42] <jmkasunich> in theory, each HAL module could have a set of rules that can be used to validate it's configuration
[16:35:56] <SWPadnos> think like the make system - the makefiles for each subdirectory are included from the master
[16:36:13] <jmkasunich> in practice, it's gonna get hairy
[16:36:49] <jmkasunich> I can already tell that there's gonna be more code needed to validate and configure an EMC than there will be actually running the EMC
[16:36:55] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't thikn so. each module has one or more .{c,cc,asm,h,hh} file, plus a .val file
[16:36:58] <rayh> If we can treat each HAL mod as a section, then we can treat them exactly like any other.
[16:37:08] <SWPadnos> the UI always takes more code than the meat of the program :)
[16:37:25] <rayh> My tickle config program would pop up a pic of the mod with inpins outpins and parms.
[16:37:33] <jmkasunich> something that I as a RT control guy find very depressing
[16:37:45] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich shuts up
[16:37:50] <SWPadnos> me too - try it with an AVR :)
[16:37:57] <rayh> And the rule set in the master doc does the work of insuring that they are properly filled.
[16:38:10] <alex_joni> rayh: who?
[16:38:28] <SWPadnos> right - your program only needs to know what modules are available (which could be from ls *.val)
[16:38:42] <SWPadnos> then it can load up the definitions and present them in whatever way
[16:39:14] <rayh> Yep and the rules for that guide the gui configurator and the person running it.
[16:39:35] <SWPadnos> right - lots of small files that a person can string together to do something :)
[16:39:39] <alex_joni> swp: now let's talk KISFATASS
[16:39:53] <SWPadnos> I'm all ears :)
[16:39:56] <alex_joni> how would Aunt Tillie know what modules it needs?
[16:40:18] <rayh> Tillie is NOT going to look at the master or data. That is handled by the developers.
[16:40:26] <alex_joni> from the gui
[16:40:30] <SWPadnos> there's a list of modules, organized by function (GUI / motion / etc)
[16:40:33] <rayh> But those must still be KIS
[16:40:44] <SWPadnos> click on one and you get a description (from the help text)
[16:41:03] <SWPadnos> double-click or drag, and it's part of your machine definition
[16:41:07] <alex_joni> I think we should simplify it even more
[16:41:10] <rayh> HAL config is going to be difficult enough for Tillie with a gui that lists all possible HAL mods.
[16:41:20] <alex_joni> for the user (aunt tillie)
[16:41:31] <SWPadnos> hierarchical tree for function types - still hard, but not as bad
[16:41:41] <alex_joni> I think we need a dumb more
[16:41:45] <alex_joni> (wizard mode)
[16:41:48] <rayh> If tillie answers that she has steppers on her machine, that will eliminate a lot of stuff.
[16:41:53] <jmkasunich> this brings up an issue that's been nagging me for a while
[16:41:58] <alex_joni> first screen: hello aunt tillie
[16:42:06] <alex_joni> click next to configure your machine
[16:42:25] <alex_joni> second screen: advanced or normal config (next if unsure)
[16:42:33] <jmkasunich> I wrote HAL to be as flexible and powerfull as possible, when used by folks like me (engineers, veteran tinkerers, etc)
[16:42:34] <alex_joni> third: steppers / servo
[16:42:38] <rayh> jmkasunich: nagging
[16:42:42] <jmkasunich> NOT for Aunt Tilly
[16:42:54] <alex_joni> definately
[16:43:01] <SWPadnos> Does it need to be at that level? a person building / configuring a machine will probably not be at that novice a level
[16:43:06] <jmkasunich> IMHO, you can't Tilly-ize it without also limiting it
[16:43:07] <rayh> I don't see a big problem with that.
[16:43:18] <alex_joni> SWP: you'd be surprised
[16:43:29] <SWPadnos> I'm always surprised :)
[16:43:34] <alex_joni> ask rayh what phonecalls he gets
[16:43:40] <SWPadnos> (the universe keeps building better idiots)
[16:43:42] <rayh> There will always need to be a button someplace on the screen that says to the configurator
[16:43:58] <rayh> not the person -- the program.
[16:44:01] <jmkasunich> or read CCED or the xylotex group... there are a lot of clueless newbs out there building CNC machines
[16:44:08] <rayh> I want to violate your rules.
[16:44:11] <SWPadnos> I'veseen
[16:44:57] <jmkasunich> rayh: agreed about that button... but the GUI itself is limiting, due to the sheer size and complexity
[16:45:00] <rayh> at which point, if pressed, turns the whole screen red as $#@^ and puts up a message. "all bets are off."
[16:45:02] <alex_joni> rayh: that's under advanced
[16:45:27] <jmkasunich> I can do with a 20-40 line .hal file what it would take tons of GUI code to do
[16:45:41] <jmkasunich> of course, the GUI let's tilly do it
[16:45:43] <rayh> Yes it will mean that the configurator switches into a hal setup mode.
[16:46:11] <alex_joni> I think hal's a different thing
[16:46:24] <SWPadnos> some things can be automatic (from the definition file)
[16:46:25] <jmkasunich> I'm starting to agree
[16:46:27] <paul_c> * paul_c adds more to wiki.
[16:46:36] <alex_joni> I would expect graphical interconecting to be able to sort it out
[16:46:47] <jmkasunich> the HAL I want to continue working on isn't neccessarily the HAL that EMC needs or wants
[16:46:49] <rayh> So I'm seeing at least three levels of gui approach. New setup, read existing ini, expert.
[16:47:19] <alex_joni> rayH: RIGHT so far
[16:47:19] <paul_c> expert would be text editor ?
[16:47:23] <rayh> And expert might be pressed after either of the others.
[16:47:42] <rayh> With some help from min max and type.
[16:47:54] <SWPadnos> new setup and existing ini are the same, except for asking "would you like to use an existing configuration" at the beginning
[16:48:09] <rayh> Yes they are.
[16:48:32] <SWPadnos> a "Set all to default" button would also take care of existing .ini files
[16:48:41] <SWPadnos> (or "new configuration")
[16:48:44] <jmkasunich> and IMO, nobody would ever say "no" to that question, if we supply some samples, at least one for steppers and one for servos
[16:48:50] <rayh> I could still see the expert gui screen displaying the drawing of each module and a list of mods.
[16:49:51] <alex_joni> ok.. so we agree there are 3 kinds of people
[16:49:53] <rayh> Exactly. I would prefer to see a set of <mini-standard> stuff </mini-standard> rather than an external read.
[16:50:08] <alex_joni> 1. basic aunt tilly (click and drool)
[16:50:22] <rayh> That way mini can evolve as other variables evolve.
[16:50:27] <SWPadnos> (no - 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't :) )
[16:50:39] <rayh> Yep.
[16:50:48] <alex_joni> would use the next, next approach (select between steppers, servo, etc..) which are predefined setups
[16:51:09] <alex_joni> 2. advanced aunt tilly (has the configurator at help)
[16:51:15] <rayh> At least they greatly limit the range of choices.]
[16:51:39] <alex_joni> would open an existing config (even created by method 1), and allow some changes (based on rules)
[16:51:44] <SWPadnos> which pins do the step outputs get connected to in the click/drool scenario?
[16:51:46] <jmkasunich> maybe that's the point: "At least they greatly limit the range of choices."
[16:52:01] <SWPadnos> that becomes a hard problem, since you may not know the hardware yet
[16:52:06] <alex_joni> 3. supertilly (is allowed to change anything regardless of rules)
[16:52:21] <jmkasunich> I absolutely _hate_ the "feature" of winXP where it doesn't show ALL the entries in the program menu, it only shows the ones you used lately
[16:52:29] <alex_joni> SWP: predefined hardware
[16:52:38] <SWPadnos> Supertilly can use a text edirot - I think a validator shouldn't generate invalid files
[16:52:41] <alex_joni> jmk: you can switch that off
[16:52:44] <SWPadnos> editor
[16:52:51] <alex_joni> right..
[16:52:54] <rayh> c&d gets a <parport options> xylotex pmdx120 ... </>
[16:52:56] <jmkasunich> I know you can (and I have on any system I use)
[16:53:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni changed +st mode on paul_c
[16:53:14] <jmkasunich> the point is there _are_ two kinds of people, those that want to see everything, and those that don't
[16:53:24] <jmkasunich> I imagine others like that "feature"
[16:53:29] <alex_joni> right ;)
[16:53:45] <alex_joni> that's why all the wizards have the expert option (for people like you)
[16:53:58] <SWPadnos> so you would put detailed connection instructions somewhere for the person doing a click/drool setup?
[16:54:03] <alex_joni> and the [next] approach on others
[16:54:29] <alex_joni> +v is Aunt Villie?
[16:54:38] <SWPadnos> Aunt Vile
[16:54:43] <alex_joni> lol
[16:56:05] <alex_joni> ok.. now, I think the wizard would be needed for unexperienced users
[16:57:41] <alex_joni> I think that the first type of wizard can be hardcoded
[16:57:48] <alex_joni> wouldn't be that long anyway
[16:57:59] <alex_joni> and wouldn't change that often either
[16:58:19] <SWPadnos> as long as it can take input files, that would be fine
[16:58:42] <alex_joni> what kind of input files?
[16:58:51] <SWPadnos> (and the file could be <option name=NewHardware">Entire INI file follows</option>
[16:59:00] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos hides
[16:59:54] <Jymmm> from what?
[17:00:11] <SWPadnos> you, we're talking about XML-like things :)
[17:00:28] <Jymmm> it's your funeral
[17:03:58] <Jymmm> I only have one thing to say about that... [KISS] Keep It Simple Stupid. Why overthink things?
[17:04:16] <alex_joni> KISS is not at hand right now
[17:04:17] <SWPadnos> because Aunt Tillie can't think for herself.
[17:04:24] <alex_joni> we moved to KISFATASS
[17:04:42] <alex_joni> Keep It Simple For Aunt Tillie As She's Stupid
[17:04:49] <jmkasunich> the problem is that making things simple for Aunt Tilly means making them _far_ more complicated inside and then hiding that complexity from her
[17:05:11] <alex_joni> jmk: don't think it'll get more complicated than now
[17:05:38] <jmkasunich> how many lines of GUI code is it gonna take to implement what you guys are talking about... that is complexity
[17:05:50] <rayh> I'd rather see a <gui> rules...</gui> than a hardcoded thing.
[17:05:57] <SWPadnos> well - we've been digressing from the file format and contents to how to present it to the user
[17:06:43] <rayh> I agree. We need to think about what the various users need to see rather than how to code what they are going to see.
[17:07:09] <SWPadnos> it's possible (though a PITS) to add a "level" tag to every element
[17:07:31] <SWPadnos> LEVEL=ADV means a KISFATASS GUI doesn't show the option, and just uses default
[17:07:38] <alex_joni> right.. we need to decide what we need to accomplish first
[17:07:43] <alex_joni> and decide implementation after that
[17:08:03] <alex_joni> ADV?
[17:08:12] <SWPadnos> a simple GUI can just show all options as a tree, and possibly have a checkbos for what to include in the output
[17:08:18] <SWPadnos> ADVances configurations only
[17:08:22] <SWPadnos> advanced
[17:08:35] <SWPadnos> LEVEL=BASIC means everyone gets to see it
[17:08:41] <SWPadnos> (or something like that)
[17:09:03] <rayh> No I think a <advanced> rules >/> is much better
[17:09:35] <alex_joni> I think everything we have been discussing so far is advanced
[17:09:40] <Jymmm> "Hey I know, lets have a nero-interface (a la matrix style) then you won't even need a keyboard. Just think what you want to have as the final product and it'll just start being created by the machine"
[17:09:50] <alex_joni> the basic wouldn't cover any (or very few) of the above
[17:10:04] <alex_joni> Jymmm: if you code it .. I agree ;)
[17:10:24] <alex_joni> "stare at the screen long enough .. and it will happen"
[17:10:36] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Deal, you will be my beta test bitch!
[17:10:43] <SWPadnos> Let's hire a milion monkeys, and see what we get
[17:10:53] <rayh> a lotta crap
[17:11:08] <SWPadnos> right - so let's get back to settings and validation
[17:11:26] <Jymmm> rayh: more than what's already here?
[17:11:28] <alex_joni> lol
[17:12:06] <rayh> We're not even close.
[17:12:17] <rayh> * rayh is on the phone for a few minutes again.
[17:13:03] <Jymmm> * Jymmm grabs the backhoe, as this shovel of mine it's able to handle how deep it's getting anymore.
[17:13:43] <rayh> No I think that we've made a lot of progress this morning.
[17:14:11] <Jymmm> Sure, if this was a fertilizer factory.
[17:14:17] <Jymmm> =)
[17:14:51] <Jymmm> </soapbox>
[17:15:09] <SWPadnos> How about this: let's actually get a final decision about what needs to be in the file, then pick an appropriate encoding scheme /file format for it
[17:15:26] <SWPadnos> (like top-down design)
[17:15:39] <Jymmm> how about just an outline
[17:16:01] <SWPadnos> an outline of the file, or the file should contain an outline :)
[17:16:14] <Jymmm> of what goes in the file
[17:16:38] <alex_joni> I think we need to get a decision what tillie needs to see
[17:16:43] <rayh> And eventually we will want to make a second list of the order in which aunt tillie will see these things.
[17:16:59] <rayh> But these are separate.
[17:17:32] <rayh> The tillie is just a branching thing If this then tahat.
[17:17:49] <rayh> darn fingers cant keep up with head.
[17:17:57] <SWPadnos> OK. I think we've identified that we want a list of .ini parameters
[17:18:01] <SWPadnos> separated by module
[17:18:08] <SWPadnos> with metadata about the parameter:
[17:18:14] <SWPadnos> 1) data type
[17:18:23] <SWPadnos> 2) required/optional
[17:18:29] <SWPadnos> 3) range
[17:18:40] <SWPadnos> 4) where in the .ini file it goes
[17:19:03] <alex_joni> starts to sound like a database ;)
[17:19:07] <SWPadnos> also, the file shuold have some type of #include directive, to allow easier separation of configuration for different modules
[17:19:34] <alex_joni> bare in mind that you need exclusive include directives
[17:19:55] <SWPadnos> ?
[17:20:18] <SWPadnos> like "only include either steppermod or freqmod data"
[17:20:20] <SWPadnos> but not both
[17:20:23] <alex_joni> right
[17:20:41] <alex_joni> include one and only one of the following: steppermod, freqmod, smdromod, etc.
[17:21:00] <SWPadnos> OK. that would be accomplished at the GUI level - a module definition in the master file might just be <module>include "module.val"</module>
[17:21:33] <SWPadnos> I think there are a small number of module types (possibly until we get to HAL)
[17:21:38] <alex_joni> I would see it more as a metadata of one parameter
[17:21:44] <SWPadnos> these parallel the .ini sections
[17:21:55] <alex_joni> say you have the freqmod parameter
[17:22:11] <Jymmm> OK.... WHY are you ppl so stuck on XML for?
[17:22:22] <alex_joni> not stuck on XML
[17:22:31] <Jymmm> <module>include "module.val"</module>
[17:22:43] <alex_joni> just examples
[17:22:45] <SWPadnos> I'm using it as an example - it's easy to follow
[17:23:25] <SWPadnos> I could have said func($DISPLAY="include-file","module_name.var)
[17:23:30] <alex_joni> could be a .c file ;)
[17:23:34] <SWPadnos> but nobody would understand that (including me)
[17:23:38] <alex_joni> #include "module.val"
[17:23:55] <alex_joni> module freqmod () {
[17:24:01] <SWPadnos> sure - class {steppermod
[17:24:07] <jmkasunich> retch
[17:24:09] <alex_joni> data_type=
[17:24:09] <SWPadnos> int output_step_pin
[17:24:10] <alex_joni> }
[17:24:26] <SWPadnos> hmmm - maybe we can parse the header files to get the information...
[17:24:32] <SWPadnos> (NOT!)
[17:25:05] <SWPadnos> actually - making big nasty macros like the kernel (MODULE_PARAM) might be helpful here
[17:25:14] <SWPadnos> (or just annoying)
[17:25:23] <jmkasunich> just annoying
[17:25:24] <alex_joni> SWP: shush
[17:25:43] <SWPadnos> OK - back to XML (sorry Jymmm)
[17:25:52] <jmkasunich> ignore the format... focus on the data....
[17:25:58] <SWPadnos> right
[17:26:03] <rayh> I could easily see something like <stepper-rule> stuff
[17:26:09] <jmkasunich> a parameter needs a name, a min value, a max value, and a default value
[17:26:21] <SWPadnos> and a type
[17:26:22] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: parent/child
[17:26:24] <rayh> or a set of possible values.
[17:26:31] <alex_joni> jmk: that's data
[17:26:41] <alex_joni> we were treatng data sepparately from the rules
[17:27:06] <anonimasu> :)
[17:27:10] <jmkasunich> rules like?
[17:27:11] <SWPadnos> min max and default can be part of the rules though
[17:27:12] <alex_joni> but range is a rule
[17:28:35] <SWPadnos> so - the ini file has the following:
[17:29:01] <SWPadnos> EMC section - easy to encode
[17:29:08] <alex_joni> right
[17:29:20] <SWPadnos> DISPLAY section - select at most one of the display programs
[17:29:25] <SWPadnos> (or is it exactly one?)
[17:29:30] <alex_joni> ahain right
[17:29:49] <SWPadnos> Motion section - select exactly one (or at least one) of these
[17:29:56] <Jymmm> Why not make the definition and the stting exactly the same format?
[17:30:22] <SWPadnos> the ini file should have the mnimal set of information to make the machine run
[17:30:25] <Jymmm> *.def *.cfg
[17:30:32] <SWPadnos> the configuration file should have all the possibilities
[17:31:55] <alex_joni> SWP: keep going
[17:32:10] <SWPadnos> so - look at the EMC section - what needs to be there in all cases, and what is optional?
[17:32:13] <alex_joni> TRAJ is also pretty simple
[17:32:30] <SWPadnos> (it looks like the RS274NCG_STARTUP_CODE shuold be in a different section
[17:32:35] <alex_joni> think you need all 5
[17:32:43] <alex_joni> well inivar expects it there
[17:32:46] <SWPadnos> because you may not be using G-code for your machine)
[17:32:59] <alex_joni> you do use g-code for your machine ;)
[17:33:08] <alex_joni> there is nothing else available
[17:33:14] <SWPadnos> I certainly will, but a ladder-only machine wouldn't
[17:33:29] <alex_joni> a ladder-only machine won't run emc
[17:33:48] <SWPadnos> plus, there's already a RS274NGC section, which seems to be the more logical place
[17:34:26] <SWPadnos> I can think of robotic applications that wouldn't use G-code
[17:34:34] <SWPadnos> but still might want to use EMC
[17:35:06] <Jymmm> Y'All should run for office!
[17:35:24] <alex_joni> SWP: emc doesn't run without gcode
[17:35:31] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: that's an insult :)
[17:35:45] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: DUH!
[17:35:47] <alex_joni> you can jog it manually.. but nothing else
[17:36:07] <anonimasu> alex_joni: there might be somone that has a special language for communicating with other hardware.. for example..
[17:36:09] <anonimasu> :)
[17:36:19] <alex_joni> so?
[17:36:27] <alex_joni> they still would use gcode for emc
[17:36:34] <SWPadnos> so it wouldn't be G-code
[17:36:40] <Jymmm> HPGL
[17:36:44] <SWPadnos> think low-level motion controller
[17:36:45] <alex_joni> they would use that special language instead of talking step pulses to the motors
[17:37:09] <alex_joni> low-level motion controller doesn't speak gcode
[17:37:16] <alex_joni> it talks NML
[17:37:31] <alex_joni> from the gcode interpreter
[17:37:43] <SWPadnos> right - but EMC could have a different motion language bolted onto it, which speaks NML
[17:37:48] <paul_c> No, it uses canonical commands
[17:38:08] <alex_joni> paul_c: right, canonical commands embedded in NML
[17:38:38] <alex_joni> the debate is about emc beeing able to not use gcode but another interpreter to create those canonical commands
[17:38:51] <alex_joni> be it step-nc
[17:38:59] <alex_joni> or HPGL, or whatever
[17:39:06] <SWPadnos> right - that shouldn't be decided by the ini file format :)
[17:39:16] <rayh> IMO You guys really headed off the track now with the rules thing.
[17:39:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[17:39:44] <SWPadnos> what do you see as the proper track?
[17:39:59] <alex_joni> * alex_joni starts coding
[17:40:06] <Jymmm> outline of requirements
[17:40:35] <Jymmm> actually.... Purpose statement.
[17:40:39] <SWPadnos> yes - the question is which rules go into the configurator file.
[17:40:55] <SWPadnos> min / max / data type, or just "pick one of these values"
[17:40:57] <rayh> Why not <interp> rs274ngc, stepnc, raync
[17:41:49] <SWPadnos> sure - I was going through generic.ini, and had noticed that the RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE parameter seems to be misplaced in the .ini file
[17:41:57] <rayh> Let the guy who writes the configurator decide exactly how to present the questions to tillie.
[17:42:07] <SWPadnos> (should be under R274NGC section)
[17:42:12] <SWPadnos> RS...
[17:42:18] <rayh> Data validity is a thing by itself.
[17:42:31] <rayh> Is 0x278 an int.
[17:42:44] <SWPadnos> so is 632
[17:42:51] <SWPadnos> (which isn't a problem)
[17:43:03] <rayh> That is very different from the validity of an ini file for a specific machine and computer.
[17:43:37] <rayh> I do see wanting rules like if freqmod not steppermod.
[17:43:48] <SWPadnos> so the configuration file needs to have the location in the ini file, plus any restrictions on the data itself (type, range, required)
[17:43:52] <rayh> But those kinds of rules will change as drivers change.
[17:44:11] <SWPadnos> that makes an include directive pretty important
[17:44:35] <SWPadnos> if a driver changes, then the driver data config file would have to change as well
[17:44:40] <rayh> I see the required as a separate kind of thing.
[17:45:01] <rayh> To me that's more of a stepper v servo thing.
[17:45:04] <SWPadnos> if a driver is added / removed, then the re should be two lines in the master file that change:
[17:45:13] <SWPadnos> first, the line that provides this driver as an option
[17:45:15] <rayh> Which is not at the same level as the variable itself.
[17:45:23] <SWPadnos> second, the line that includes the drivers info file
[17:45:58] <rayh> Except that I saw it as a single flat file with sections that do these things.
[17:46:23] <SWPadnos> that would be simpler to make, but harder to maintain
[17:46:33] <alex_joni> * alex_joni reboots his devel box
[17:46:36] <alex_joni> back in a bit
[17:47:16] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: that would offload keeping the config correct to the module authors..
[17:47:19] <anonimasu> :)
[17:47:35] <rayh> Right.
[17:47:37] <SWPadnos> even if make turns it into a flat file (use the c preprocessor and #includes)
[17:47:47] <SWPadnos> right - even better :)
[17:47:56] <anonimasu> are we talking "compile" now?
[17:48:07] <SWPadnos> it should start out as separate pieces IMO
[17:48:10] <anonimasu> that's running away a bit.. :)
[17:48:30] <anonimasu> config should be config.. compilation should be another step entirely on its own..
[17:48:41] <anonimasu> even though you might use the same tool to configure that tool.
[17:48:43] <anonimasu> err
[17:48:45] <anonimasu> too
[17:49:13] <SWPadnos> yes - but since the modules to be created are decided at emc buil;d time, the configuration (EMC configuration, not ./configure) file can be created at the same time, from component parts
[17:50:31] <alex_joni> back
[17:50:38] <rayh> Seems to me that this is a separate issue emc build v emc configure
[17:50:40] <SWPadnos> hi again
[17:50:51] <SWPadnos> absolutely.
[17:51:11] <SWPadnos> I was only pointing out that the emc build can also create appropriate configuration validation files
[17:51:27] <alex_joni> swp: don't go there
[17:51:31] <paul_c> s/can/could/
[17:51:38] <rayh> Yes it could.
[17:52:09] <SWPadnos> no tactual configurations - just concatenations of the .val files for compiled modules
[17:52:15] <SWPadnos> not actual
[17:52:34] <SWPadnos> (or a cpp run through a master .val file)
[17:52:36] <alex_joni> the build should compile all modules
[17:52:41] <rayh> Okay I see where you are thinking.
[17:52:53] <alex_joni> the thing you aim for could be the other way around
[17:53:00] <rayh> automatic passing of data from compile a module to configure a module.
[17:53:05] <alex_joni> configure what you need, and build that (only freqmod)
[17:53:25] <SWPadnos> yes - that would be the KBuild way :)
[17:54:08] <rayh> In that case, we would not distribute EMC binaries.
[17:54:10] <SWPadnos> I wa saddressing Ray's desire to have a flat file for configuration - if that's desirable, then make can create one from multiple module-specific validation files
[17:54:34] <SWPadnos> each of which is easy to maintain
[17:54:45] <alex_joni> did any of you ever try geda?
[17:54:46] <rayh> Wow. You guys are so far ahead of me...
[17:55:00] <alex_joni> gEDA actually?
[17:55:15] <alex_joni> it's a GPL schematic suite
[17:55:17] <SWPadnos> I just installed it, I may run it in a minute
[17:55:27] <alex_joni> I absolutely hate it, but I liked the setup
[17:55:28] <paul_c> I can see one scenario where compile time generation of a config template would go tits up.
[17:55:31] <SWPadnos> (on my Win box, via Cygwin-X :) )
[17:55:38] <SWPadnos> right - if you ionoly compile pieces
[17:56:08] <paul_c> or if you use (for example) Jon's ppmc module
[17:56:27] <paul_c> and it wasn't compiled on your box.
[17:56:40] <SWPadnos> good point.
[17:57:02] <SWPadnos> the best way might be to have a directory of config files for different modules
[17:57:04] <alex_joni> right
[17:57:23] <SWPadnos> the first thing in the file is <CONFIGTYPE="MOTION"> or sonething like that
[17:57:37] <SWPadnos> the GUI just gets a file list to see what's there
[17:58:09] <SWPadnos> with possible config types being {display ,motion,interpreter,hardware} etc.
[17:58:12] <Jymmm> Anyone have a reference to selecting a screw type? (speed/torque/etc) ?
[18:02:19] <Jymmm> Wow! Is that all I have to do to shut you ppl up? Impressive =)
[18:02:48] <SWPadnos> nope - are you looking for ball vs. acme vs. other?
[18:03:50] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: correct. I want to build a router table, but eventually add a laser to it if possible
[18:04:11] <SWPadnos> I don't have any specific resources - just curious.
[18:05:00] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: asdfqwega said his does 25IPM (acme iirc), so I was just looking for alternatives
[18:06:19] <SWPadnos> I think I'll be getting 175 IPM rapids on my Bridgeport - I'm not sure I want to spin the ballscerw any faster than that anyway (875 RPM is pretty fast)
[18:06:41] <anonimasu> hehe :)
[18:07:06] <SWPadnos> In fact, I don't think I'll want to spin the ballscrew that fast even
[18:07:13] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: can you get torque out of that as well?
[18:07:36] <Jymmm> (not at that speed of course =)
[18:07:38] <SWPadnos> yes - up to 112 in-lb if needed
[18:07:44] <SWPadnos> yes-at that speed
[18:08:01] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: and if you slow it down by half?
[18:08:14] <SWPadnos> I'd have to switch to Rutes drives to get full motor performance
[18:08:34] <SWPadnos> yes - there is a 2:1 drive from the motor, and the ballscrew is 5TPI
[18:08:36] <Jymmm> Rutes?
[18:08:41] <SWPadnos> Rutex - sorry
[18:08:49] <Jymmm> Rutex?
[18:08:51] <SWPadnos> (frozen fingers)
[18:08:59] <Jymmm> frozen brain
[18:09:12] <SWPadnos> not!
[18:09:14] <Jymmm> what is Rutex?
[18:09:22] <Jymmm> sound like a drain cleaner
[18:09:33] <anonimasu> a gecko competitor..
[18:09:34] <SWPadnos> (coffee thaws the brain, but the heater in the downstairs is on the fritz)
[18:09:56] <SWPadnos> yes - I like the Geckos better, and I'm pretty sure I won't need to go more than 175 IPM on my 42" table
[18:09:57] <Jymmm> anonimasu: ah, ty
[18:10:21] <SWPadnos> (with 30" motion envelope)
[18:10:26] <anonimasu> hm, I think rutex seems nice
[18:10:37] <anonimasu> I havent tried rutex though..
[18:10:57] <SWPadnos> They apparently use the same transstors as the Gecko, but rate them higher (not for the 200V drives, of course)
[18:11:09] <anonimasu> but they larger counters
[18:11:13] <anonimasu> for ferror..
[18:11:25] <anonimasu> err lock range or whatever you call it..
[18:11:34] <SWPadnos> not an issue - if the motor driver gets that far off, there's really likely to be some other more major problem
[18:11:41] <anonimasu> yeah
[18:11:48] <SWPadnos> I'd rather know about it sooner :)
[18:11:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what ballscrews do you have?
[18:12:07] <SWPadnos> (though programmability is nice, I'm not sure how useful it actually is)
[18:12:20] <SWPadnos> I got them from Machine Tools Direct (off eBay)
[18:12:33] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what were the specs?
[18:12:47] <SWPadnos> they're a Bridgeport retrofit kit, complete with yoke
[18:13:07] <Jymmm> SWPadnos $$$???
[18:13:10] <SWPadnos> look at the Rockford Ballscrew retrofit kit specs, these are the same
[18:13:13] <SWPadnos> $600
[18:13:24] <anonimasu> is that each?
[18:13:26] <SWPadnos> precision ground, too
[18:13:36] <SWPadnos> total for the XY + yoke kit
[18:13:44] <anonimasu> oh.. heh
[18:13:50] <anonimasu> that's not that expensive
[18:13:55] <SWPadnos> no mounts or Z axis stuff
[18:14:00] <Jymmm> anonimasu the hell it's not! lol
[18:14:03] <SWPadnos> no - I looked around for a while for them
[18:14:17] <anonimasu> Jymmm: it's not expensive.. :)
[18:14:33] <anonimasu> Jymmm: have you seen the reail off dealers what a good ballscrew costs?
[18:14:40] <SWPadnos> I got the 2J vari-speed BP for $1800, then added those, plus the computer, motors, etc - it definitely adds up
[18:14:54] <Jymmm> anonimasu: No I haven't
[18:15:27] <anonimasu> Jymmm: each of my ballscrews were about 579$
[18:15:38] <SWPadnos> precision kits are in the $1500-$3000 range
[18:15:40] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Heck man, I went to the flea market yesterday looking for stuff =) Found a wallet though.
[18:15:41] <anonimasu> not extremely special skf ballscrews..
[18:16:45] <SWPadnos> Here's what I got: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3876812516
[18:16:47] <anonimasu> Jymmm: so 600 for a kit is super cheap :)
[18:17:11] <anonimasu> I saw a program at tv today where they milled a steering wheel out of alu
[18:17:35] <anonimasu> with a large mill.. and I wanted one.. badly until
[18:17:44] <anonimasu> until I openend my tool catalogue..
[18:17:49] <Jymmm> Hey, whats does the " 9 x 42" mean ?
[18:18:07] <anonimasu> 56500$ for a small cnc mill..
[18:18:40] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[18:18:48] <Jymmm> Hey, whats does the " 9 x 42" mean ? Is it size, or travel?
[18:18:56] <SWPadnos> table size
[18:19:06] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[18:19:08] <rayh> y travel 9" x travel 42 inch" There were a couple different sizes
[18:19:26] <SWPadnos> travel is different (30x12 for me)
[18:19:30] <rayh> These kits are made specifically for that set of ways.
[18:19:39] <Jymmm> lol SWPadnos says size, rayh says travel.
[18:19:44] <Jymmm> * Jymmm is so confused
[18:19:50] <Jymmm> lol
[18:19:55] <rayh> It was deliberate.
[18:20:04] <SWPadnos> right - the table measures 42" wide, and can move 30" in that direction
[18:20:39] <SWPadnos> it's 9" front to back, and can move 12 inches in that direction, or 9 inches on some machines
[18:20:40] <Jymmm> rayh: bastard! =)
[18:21:02] <rayh> Yep. You are not the first to have characterized me as such.
[18:21:18] <SWPadnos> I hope to preserve the full range of motion in X by creative motor mounting, but CNC retrofits for these often restrict movement to a 24" range
[18:21:28] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
[18:21:30] <MrAsshole> * MrAsshole rayh: good to know =)
[18:21:32] <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
[18:21:42] <SWPadnos> (due to the mounts hitting the saddle)
[18:22:29] <SWPadnos> Well - exciting as that may be, what's the deal with machine configuration? :)
[18:22:31] <rayh> * rayh must get away and take care of family tings, eh.
[18:22:39] <SWPadnos> will you be back later?
[18:22:53] <rayh> I'll keep watching the wiki.
[18:23:07] <rayh> Yes in a couple hours.
[18:23:24] <SWPadnos> OK - I also have some things to take care of - I'll put thoughts on a wiki pagelater
[18:23:31] <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
[18:23:49] <SWPadnos> I'll be back later
[18:23:59] <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_away
[18:24:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I was just learning what the 9x96 meant (size or travel)
[18:24:28] <Jymmm> 1.5-4 6' acme
[18:25:08] <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/drivers/realtimeio.c: Rough init routine to demonstrate how this might progress.
[18:25:58] <Jymmm> I found Enco for acme imports, anyone know any ballscrew import sources?
[18:32:11] <A-L-P-H-A> hello everyone.
[18:32:16] <alex_joni> hey there
[18:32:33] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, hiwynn (sp), roton (I like them)
[18:32:42] <A-L-P-H-A> import ball screws??
[18:32:54] <A-L-P-H-A> the companies I listed are domestic.
[18:33:01] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: s/import/CHEAP/ ballscrews
[18:33:02] <A-L-P-H-A> domestic to the US at least...
[18:33:13] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, what size and buget.
[18:33:39] <A-L-P-H-A> 1" dia x 12" = $20/ft. Ball nut is $28.75 each.
[18:34:02] <A-L-P-H-A> error is 0.003" to 0.008" per foot. Rolled ballscrews. Not ground.
[18:34:29] <Jymmm> url's?
[18:34:33] <A-L-P-H-A> www.roton.com
[18:34:46] <A-L-P-H-A> prices aren't online... but they have a 1800 number.
[18:34:50] <SWP_away> Jymmm: search the CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO yahoo group - there was a recent discussion of ballscrews, and someone posted a list of suppliers
[18:34:57] <SWP_away> bye
[18:35:01] <Jymmm> SWP_away: ty
[18:35:01] <A-L-P-H-A> 3/8" is expensive though... well the nut is, the shaft isn't.
[18:35:14] <A-L-P-H-A> SWP_away? leaveing around?
[18:35:24] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: I think I need 1/2" or better (4')
[18:35:26] <A-L-P-H-A> around=already
[18:35:37] <A-L-P-H-A> 1/2" I don't think is super expensive.
[18:36:07] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, at 4' of 1/2" it might be a little whip-y...
[18:36:47] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A so what, go up to 1" ?
[18:36:58] <paul_c> * paul_c throws another gallon of gas on to the CCED fire.
[18:37:16] <paul_c> * paul_c runs off for tea.
[18:37:24] <A-L-P-H-A> nah... but the smallest I'd go is porbably 5/8. probably go with the 3/4 myself.
[18:37:27] <Jymmm> paul_c: you have it all wrong.... gas is so old-skool.... it's LN2
[18:37:56] <A-L-P-H-A> damn... I'm super old skewl.
[18:38:07] <A-L-P-H-A> blood form a virgin chicken.
[18:39:39] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, think this... it's not the OD that's holding the weight of the screw. it's the ID... threads are rolled into it. the effective diameter a 1/2" ball screw is more like 3/8" dia. 3/8" at 4 ft... it may warp, and start resonating, causing havoc.
[18:42:08] <Jymmm> small emergency here, gimme a few....
[18:43:55] <A-L-P-H-A> np
[18:46:54] <alex_joni> paul_c: still around?
[18:47:10] <A-L-P-H-A> [13:41:15] * @paul_c throws another gallon of gas on to the CCED fire.
[18:47:11] <A-L-P-H-A> [13:41:34] * @paul_c runs off for tea.
[18:47:15] <A-L-P-H-A> EST -5 GMT
[18:47:23] <alex_joni> I know that ALPHA
[18:47:28] <alex_joni> ;)
[18:48:13] <A-L-P-H-A> aj, if you know that... know what a good engraving font would be? I want to engrave some dealer/small blind/big blind buttons for poker.
[18:48:35] <anonimasu> hm, A-L-P-H-A if you find any let me know of it too
[18:48:43] <anonimasu> I wish emc had a engraving macro..
[18:48:55] <alex_joni> the CAM package usually has one
[18:49:11] <anonimasu> I know that autocad comes with linefonts..
[18:49:12] <anonimasu> :)
[18:49:23] <A-L-P-H-A> linefonts don't matter.
[18:49:26] <alex_joni> * alex_joni checks on Synergy
[18:49:30] <A-L-P-H-A> "outline art" works awesome
[18:50:03] <anonimasu> I'd want to have one inside the program so I can engrave serials for stuff..
[18:50:20] <anonimasu> incrementally
[18:51:27] <A-L-P-H-A> now, that would neat.
[18:52:04] <anonimasu> you can I could design a font..
[18:52:16] <anonimasu> err..
[18:52:27] <anonimasu> but getting emc to engrave with it is the harder part..
[18:52:31] <anonimasu> and to scale it :
[18:52:32] <anonimasu> :)
[18:59:06] <alex_joni> an0n: there are a lot of vectorial fonts out there
[18:59:16] <alex_joni> you can scale those as big as you like
[19:01:52] <anonimasu> alex_joni: I want g40097 Z12 "THIS IS A ENGRAVED THINGIE"
[19:02:05] <anonimasu> :p
[19:02:18] <alex_joni> right
[19:02:23] <alex_joni> code it ;)
[19:02:36] <alex_joni> but you'll need some more info
[19:02:39] <alex_joni> like font
[19:02:43] <alex_joni> size
[19:02:43] <anonimasu> lol I dont know how
[19:02:45] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:02:52] <alex_joni> direction
[19:02:52] <alex_joni> orientation
[19:02:55] <alex_joni> etc
[19:02:59] <anonimasu> yep
[19:03:02] <alex_joni> that's why CAM programs exist
[19:03:08] <alex_joni> to do exactly that ;)
[19:03:11] <anonimasu> alex_joni: but cam programs dont allow you to do serials..
[19:03:24] <alex_joni> hmmm .. really?
[19:03:28] <anonimasu> alex_joni: "ser: $X"
[19:03:28] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:03:40] <alex_joni> but they could give you individual letters
[19:03:46] <alex_joni> and use a script to make a serial
[19:03:49] <anonimasu> hm.. yeah
[19:03:56] <anonimasu> but I dont know of any program that can do that..
[19:03:58] <anonimasu> maybe mastercam
[19:04:16] <anonimasu> but on like a fanuc you have a engraving macro..
[19:04:24] <anonimasu> macro/gcode..
[19:04:38] <anonimasu> that you can use to engrave simple stuff..
[19:05:09] <anonimasu> I'll be back in a while going to mill a part in foam and go to the kiosk
[19:05:17] <alex_joni> http://www.2linc.com/engraving_software.htm
[19:05:42] <A-L-P-H-A> aj, anonimasu, remember that font thing I wanted to write. well... took me 10 minutes. :) sweet.
[19:05:51] <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: what?
[19:06:02] <anonimasu> I dont remember..
[19:06:32] <anonimasu> alex_joni: that wont help :)
[19:06:41] <A-L-P-H-A> [this is off my computer]
[19:06:43] <anonimasu> anyway, lets continue this later
[19:06:51] <anonimasu> I need to run
[19:06:57] <anonimasu> nice :)
[19:08:29] <alex_joni> alpha: cool
[19:09:25] <A-L-P-H-A> now, if I could save the images as png files, and just load them up to serve instead. :)
[19:09:56] <A-L-P-H-A> ahh!
[19:10:12] <A-L-P-H-A> imagepng($image_source, "filename");
[19:11:03] <alex_joni> right ;)
[19:16:06] <alex_joni> did you try DeskEngrave ?
[19:37:52] <Jymmm> ok, emeregency diverted
[19:42:05] <Jymmm> * Jymmm had to perfeorm a sewingappendectomy =)
[19:45:57] <alex_joni> ouch.. on yourself?
[19:46:14] <Jymmm> Nah, my gf's sewing machine.
[19:56:57] <Jymmm> ok, I'm back (i think)
[19:57:07] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A you still aorund?
[20:00:45] <Jymmm> hiwynn <--- cant find them
[20:01:21] <alex_joni> * alex_joni thinks it's hiwin
[20:01:47] <Jymmm> alex_joni wins the prize!!! ty
[20:01:55] <alex_joni> www.hiwin.com
[20:02:02] <alex_joni> yw
[20:02:35] <paul_c> * paul_c returns
[20:02:43] <Jymmm> anyone heard of "hilead screws" ?
[20:03:02] <Jymmm> return paul_c(NULL)
[20:03:18] <Jymmm> err VOID NULL
[20:03:19] <alex_joni> hey paul_c
[20:03:31] <alex_joni> wanted to ask you smthg.. but I forgot what
[20:03:32] <alex_joni> :)
[20:03:59] <A-L-P-H-A> heh
[20:04:01] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, sorry
[20:04:05] <paul_c> * paul_c tries to guess
[20:04:07] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A np
[20:04:12] <alex_joni> paul_c: I'm working on a simple configurator script (based on dialog), would that fit in CVS ?
[20:04:33] <alex_joni> it's just smthg that could be run after ./configure and make
[20:04:35] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, hiwin.com is about $200 more expensive than roton. So if you're on a budget, I suggest roton. But give hiwin a call anyways, and see if they'll price compete on similar products.
[20:04:51] <paul_c> emc 1 r 2 ?
[20:04:59] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A will do, and get a catalgo too =)
[20:05:04] <alex_joni> not sure.. both I think
[20:05:23] <alex_joni> emc1 more than emc2
[20:05:31] <alex_joni> maybe emc2 too ;)
[20:05:38] <Jymmm> e=mc2
[20:05:47] <alex_joni> Jymmm wins the prize
[20:05:51] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, but if you're looking for precision ground stuff... GOOD LUCK! :) Prices I was quoted 3 years ago, were like $1,800 an axis for something like 3ft. :) hehe
[20:05:54] <alex_joni> now explain how you got there
[20:06:00] <Jymmm> http://www.roton.com/images/hilead_screw.jpg
[20:06:18] <Jymmm> alex_joni: tequilia, lots and lots of tequilia
[20:06:19] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, wanna help me sort engravable, versus not engravable fonts? I have like 675 more fonts to go.
[20:06:24] <A-L-P-H-A> from 800.
[20:06:44] <Jymmm> *.ttf
[20:06:46] <Jymmm> =)
[20:07:00] <alex_joni> lol
[20:07:22] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, they're ALL TTF... but some are glyphic, versus more clean, outlined or single line width type fonts.
[20:07:51] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: Eh, use em all!
[20:08:28] <Jymmm> ttf are SUPPOSE to be vector based
[20:08:53] <Jymmm> any pros/cons on using hilead over acme screw?
[20:09:01] <A-L-P-H-A> gang: (unsorted)
[20:09:16] <A-L-P-H-A>
[20:10:08] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A what are you using to sort/create the thumbnails?
[20:10:20] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, php. :)
[20:10:26] <A-L-P-H-A> <-- PHP intermediate.
[20:10:49] <Jymmm> ew
[20:11:01] <Jymmm> nm
[20:11:34] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A php would be on it's knees if I had it do my font collection
[20:11:37] <A-L-P-H-A> btw, not all the fonts are nice looking. I'm not basing them on those criterias.
[20:11:48] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, how many thousands of fonts?
[20:12:01] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: roughly... 300K
[20:12:19] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, I took out a few lines... I had the fonts thumbnails cached... but I took that out, since I'm sorting
[20:12:30] <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, wanna rar them up, and send them allll over? :)
[20:12:57] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: not really.... they're on DVD's
[20:13:49] <Jymmm> and I'm in the middle of transfering art explosion 800k from 34 CD's to DVD's atm
[20:14:17] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: My gf got it for me for my upcoming bday =)
[20:14:30] <A-L-P-H-A> 300,000 fonts? each about 50K each. that's only 15 gigs
[20:14:41] <A-L-P-H-A> or am I smoking crack?
[20:14:52] <A-L-P-H-A> no, that's right.
[20:15:16] <A-L-P-H-A> 300,000 x 0.050 megs = 15,000 megs. which is about 3 DVDs. :)
[20:15:18] <Jymmm> something like that.
[20:15:35] <A-L-P-H-A> 1.5 DVDs if you use DL.
[20:15:51] <Jymmm> dl ?
[20:15:53] <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder what would be quicker, snail mail, or transfering that.
[20:15:53] <A-L-P-H-A> heh
[20:19:24] <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A so you were saying that even 1/2" would be whippy too?
[20:20:14] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm saying that.
[20:20:29] <A-L-P-H-A> the price diff isn't that much... so why not a little bigger.
[20:20:32] <A-L-P-H-A> at 4ft.
[20:20:55] <Jymmm> ok, so how much larger? 1" ?
[20:21:36] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd probably use 3/4". But 1" isn't that expensive from than at all. you're looking at 4ft segment, 1 nut. that's about $125USD + shipping.
[20:22:20] <Jymmm> have you seen these hilead screws?
[20:22:39] <A-L-P-H-A> no I haven't.
[20:23:01] <Jymmm> http://www.roton.com/web/hilead.jsp
[20:23:15] <Jymmm> they have a 5 degree angle on the threads
[20:29:45] <A-L-P-H-A> dunno. ballscrews = tried and true. acme = tried and true. Probably a reason why everyone doesn't use these hi-helix hilead screws.
[20:34:48] <alex_joni> with Fest coming up.. I think we need enumerating stuff that needs discussion there
[20:34:51] <alex_joni> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TopicsForDeveloperDiscussionAt_EMC_Fest_2005
[20:35:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni leaves for half an hour
[20:36:21] <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as aj_away
[20:37:19] <ray_> paul_c: I added a bit to wiki after your last.
[20:38:04] <Imperator_> have also added a page, please can somebody test if the admin passwd is still ok :-)
[20:39:14] <anonimasu> iab
[20:41:22] <A-L-P-H-A> woohoo! on E!
[20:41:30] <A-L-P-H-A> only 627 or so fonts to go
[20:42:27] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:42:58] <anonimasu> the font architex that was on the page you pasted would you mind sharing it?
[20:43:41] <anonimasu> ah found it
[20:43:43] <anonimasu> :9
[20:48:19] <paul_c> * paul_c finds ray_ 's changes...
[20:50:13] <acemi> hi ray_, my "axis following error" problem is solved, thank you again
[20:50:31] <ray_> You're welcome. Glad to help.
[20:50:46] <paul_c> ray_: To be honest, we don't need to provide tags & values for ini params that are common to all configurations.
[20:51:22] <ray_> Could you explain that a bit more.
[20:52:17] <paul_c> For example, TASK
[20:52:43] <paul_c> [TASK] will have a TASK, & CYCLE_TIME
[20:53:50] <paul_c> [TRAJ] will always have the same param in any ini file...
[20:54:18] <paul_c> So these don't need to be in an xml definition....
[20:54:45] <Jymmm> *cough*trator*cough*
[20:54:49] <ray_> But we need to pass all vars and good values to a tickle config
[20:55:28] <anonimasu> Jymmm: what?
[20:55:38] <anonimasu> * anonimasu agrees
[20:55:42] <anonimasu> with ray..
[20:55:58] <paul_c> but surely the config program would know what are essential vars, and perhaps have some rules coded in ?
[20:56:56] <ray_> I was thinking that the tickle config would have none of this.
[20:57:11] <ray_> That way the master or data file would be all that would need to be changed
[20:57:17] <ray_> when a new var comes along.
[20:57:24] <ray_> or an old var goes away.
[20:58:04] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[20:59:19] <ray_> I believe that by doing this we can extract all ini sections into a single tickle var
[20:59:33] <ray_> and then foreach var $mastervar
[20:59:45] <ray_> and build the tk screens from that.
[21:00:19] <ray_> I really like what you did with the foomod
[21:00:35] <ray_> It has all of the necessary vars in there.
[21:00:47] <ray_> This will work good for a gui.
[21:01:11] <ray_> From that we get the list of vars that tillie needs to deal with
[21:01:27] <paul_c> I just looked at it from the point of what would a module provide, and what params does it need.
[21:01:30] <ray_> Then from the var definition sections we get the values or range of values
[21:02:01] <ray_> Sorry. I think vars rather params.
[21:02:36] <ray_> But Yes. The foomod provides params needed by foomod.
[21:02:44] <paul_c> vars, params - The term is interchangable.
[21:03:00] <ray_> So when foomod is selected from the list of possible mods we get the list needed.
[21:03:27] <ray_> I think that we should get the specific characteristics of those params from a separate param listing.
[21:03:46] <paul_c> "a list of what is needed" that isn't common to all..
[21:04:10] <ray_> <param name=PERIOD>
[21:04:44] <ray_> <param name=PERIOD type=float>
[21:05:20] <paul_c> can I interrupt at that point...
[21:05:41] <paul_c> One change I would like to see....
[21:05:55] <paul_c> PERIOD being defined as an int.
[21:06:15] <ray_> Okay. Rather than as a float for time.
[21:06:20] <paul_c> and get rid of the dependency on dc in the run script.
[21:06:23] <aj_away> aj_away is now known as alex_joni
[21:06:24] <ray_> Number of ??
[21:06:27] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
[21:06:43] <paul_c> define it in terms of �Sec
[21:07:02] <ray_> I thought that was what it was now.
[21:07:28] <paul_c> 0.000050 Secs
[21:07:45] <paul_c> That's not a nice number to pass at insmod time.
[21:07:52] <paul_c> 40 is.
[21:08:06] <ray_> What is the units of 40
[21:08:13] <ray_> usec
[21:08:16] <paul_c> �Sec
[21:08:51] <ray_> periods/sec
[21:09:25] <alex_joni> I just finished catching up.. I agree on the PERIOD
[21:09:45] <alex_joni> the python configurator Martin did guessed that value
[21:09:48] <ray_> I'm a bit lost on the Sec thing.
[21:09:56] <alex_joni> maybe that's a valid thing to do?
[21:10:13] <alex_joni> ray_: lost where?
[21:10:42] <SWP_away> SWP_away is now known as SWPadnos
[21:10:47] <ray_> I agree that 0.000005 is a difficult number to use
[21:10:49] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is reading the log
[21:10:51] <ray_> 40 is much better.
[21:10:53] <paul_c> The ini file shows PERIOD as a float in terms of whole seconds
[21:11:07] <ray_> I just don't know how 40 relates to 0.000005
[21:11:12] <alex_joni> and the generic.run does some math to convert it
[21:11:16] <alex_joni> it's 50 not 40
[21:11:30] <paul_c> where as any params passed to a module at load time must be integers...
[21:11:38] <alex_joni> 0.000005 secs = 50 usecs
[21:11:48] <alex_joni> darn
[21:11:50] <paul_c> so 0.00005 becomes 50
[21:11:50] <alex_joni> 5 usecs
[21:12:00] <alex_joni> I have an extra 0 in there
[21:12:15] <ray_> Alright I'm not lost any more than I was before this discussion began.
[21:12:17] <paul_c> See how one "0" can mess things up ?
[21:12:31] <alex_joni> paul_c: you started with the 40 ;)
[21:12:39] <ray_> I copy and paste and then change the number.
[21:12:52] <paul_c> (the 40 was fat fingers getting a 4 instead of a 5)
[21:12:56] <alex_joni> you only need to divide/multiply by a million
[21:13:01] <ray_> I agree absolutely that 40 microseconds is much better than whatever that darn float is.
[21:13:26] <alex_joni> and the extra 0 is because of my darn finger-shivering ;)
[21:13:53] <ray_> Okay we all agree to change the PERIOD variable in some future release.
[21:14:33] <paul_c> alex_joni: Bash does not do floating point math - You have to use a command line calculator which increases the size of the minimum base install.
[21:14:37] <ray_> Could we do that as a if big number then ---> and if small then ---->
[21:15:11] <ray_> That way we can make our changes to configuration stuff without confusing most of the users.
[21:15:23] <alex_joni> paul_c: I agree.. but you still need a way to convert it from 0.000005 to 50 (either count the 0 or whatever)
[21:15:33] <alex_joni> so it's nicer to only use 50
[21:16:15] <ray_> I think this will make it much easier to explain period and how period works with setup and hold.
[21:16:20] <ray_> and such.
[21:18:17] <SWPadnos> OK - so the TRAJ section is always the same (probably)
[21:18:35] <SWPadnos> the possibility of doing HAL-only ladder logic things would be an exception
[21:19:19] <SWPadnos> (but it should also be pretty simple to put the TRAJ variable limits into a definition file)
[21:19:28] <paul_c> Hmmm... Does PROBE_* need to be TRAJ, or should it be in the IO section ?
[21:19:41] <alex_joni> I vote for IO
[21:20:01] <paul_c> * paul_c agrees
[21:20:28] <SWPadnos> maybe a PROB={yes,no} in TRAJ though (then if yes, requires the corresponding IO section vars)
[21:20:31] <SWPadnos> PROBE
[21:21:18] <paul_c> Why litter up a config with redundant params ?
[21:21:43] <SWPadnos> so that each section stands on its own
[21:21:51] <paul_c> if PROBE_INDEX exists, then PROBE=yes by implication
[21:22:12] <SWPadnos> true enough
[21:22:43] <SWPadnos> though the generic.ini has a PROBE_* defined, even though I have no probe on my machine
[21:23:01] <SWPadnos> (but this configurator may eliminate that)
[21:23:06] <ray_> There are a bunch of these kinds of variables that got into the wrong section.
[21:23:29] <SWPadnos> (like RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE :) )
[21:23:32] <paul_c> generic.ini also has setup & hold times, even though a servo card does not use them.
[21:23:36] <ray_> Will we have to change source files like inivar
[21:23:57] <alex_joni> ray_: inivar .. don't think so
[21:24:03] <alex_joni> the call to inivar.. yes
[21:24:12] <ray_> okay.
[21:25:10] <paul_c> * paul_c greps for inivar & PROBE_INDEX
[21:25:12] <alex_joni> and the .c files actually reading the ini
[21:26:09] <ray_> Dont you hate it when that happens.
[21:26:10] <alex_joni> initraj.cc
[21:26:44] <SWPadnos> where is initraj.cc
[21:27:03] <alex_joni> the code in initraj.cc would need to go over to ini-(someio).cc
[21:27:07] <SWPadnos> nevermind
[21:27:11] <alex_joni> emc/src/emcnml
[21:27:33] <paul_c> RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE is handled by a single call.
[21:27:45] <paul_c> in emctaskmain.cc
[21:28:20] <SWPadnos> Ah - right - it's an EMC variable of what to send to the interpreter, rather than an interpreter initialization string
[21:28:33] <SWPadnos> It might still belong in the interpreter section though
[21:29:22] <alex_joni> the only difference would be : (inistring = inifile.find("RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE", "RS274NGC")))
[21:30:12] <SWPadnos> yes - not too horrendous a change :)
[21:30:20] <paul_c> It doesn't really matter where an ini parameter is parsed....
[21:30:23] <SWPadnos> (though it would break all existing installations)
[21:30:48] <paul_c> If Ray feels a particular param is better suited to being elsewhere, we can change the code.
[21:31:29] <ray_> If you think it's more trouble, and it does look a bit like it, then let's not do anything right now.
[21:32:11] <SWPadnos> maybe put the "fix" in emc2, or wait for fest (when people assume things will be broken :) )
[21:32:25] <paul_c> Most ini parameters are parsed in one source file, so it is one line to edit.
[21:32:45] <ray_> Okay. Fest it is.
[21:33:20] <alex_joni> I think RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE is the only one not parsed in inixxx.cc files
[21:33:56] <ray_> I've put a few custom ones in for special tasks. I read them from the gui
[21:34:07] <alex_joni> right
[21:34:44] <SWPadnos> Added "rearange .ini file" to http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TopicsForDeveloperDiscussionAt_EMC_Fest_2005
[21:34:55] <paul_c> NML_FILE, SHMEM_KEY, and a couple of others are parsed by several sources.
[21:35:03] <Jymmm> eeesh... 50k different types of acme rods
[21:36:23] <SWPadnos> SHMEM_KEY and possibly some others should be gettable from an EMC library function - there's no reason for that to be parsed 72 times
[21:36:34] <Jymmm> oil finish, chromium molybdenum, 304 SS, 316 SS, ZP carbon,
[21:36:41] <SWPadnos> (assuming lots of small HAL files)
[21:37:08] <SWPadnos> This is where a generic validation scheme would come in handy
[21:37:20] <SWPadnos> there's already a generic .ini reader
[21:38:17] <SWPadnos> but it would be great to have a struct that has ("name", type, &var, min, max), and have a single function call walk that array and fill in the values
[21:38:52] <ray_> yea yea yea what he said.
[21:39:16] <SWPadnos> then we can use the same source file for the configurator
[21:39:27] <SWPadnos> (it's like "reusable code" :) )
[21:40:17] <ray_> I agree that a configurator could directly "walk" values into the struct
[21:40:44] <ray_> but it would be well to continue to have some intermediate plain text file.
[21:41:14] <SWPadnos> yes - absolutely
[21:41:54] <SWPadnos> sorry - I often mix theroetical "it would be great to do it this way" with more practical "it can be done soon this way"
[21:43:37] <ray_> No problem. I'm a lot that way myself.
[21:45:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: As long as you don't apply those to your sex life, you'll be alright =)
[21:45:25] <SWPadnos> So - I'm returning to the (way old now) topic of config file hierarchy
[21:45:34] <SWPadnos> Jymmm: I'm all practice there.
[21:45:49] <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07autoconf_install_0_1 * 10emc2/bin/configurator:
[21:45:58] <CIA-4> added a first version of text-only configurator. This is of use to Aunt Tillie
[21:45:58] <CIA-4> later on. Right now it's not really functional, but it demonstrates how it could
[21:45:58] <CIA-4> look and behave later on. It's 'dialog' based, and presents the user with a
[21:45:58] <CIA-4> question at a time. In the end it should select an default config based on the
[21:45:58] <CIA-4> answers given by the user
[21:45:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: there ya go =)
[21:46:30] <alex_joni> who wants to try it out?
[21:47:00] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is typing cvs commands
[21:47:49] <alex_joni> which reminds me..
[21:47:56] <alex_joni> this is a special branch ;)
[21:48:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if paul_c remembers
[21:49:30] <ray_> oops. What's the branch name.
[21:49:42] <alex_joni> -r autoconf_install_0_1
[21:51:30] <SWPadnos> where does it need to be run? (I run it, and some error flashes past, then the terminal clears)
[21:52:14] <alex_joni> check if you have dialog
[21:52:22] <alex_joni> which dialog
[21:52:25] <anonimasu> * anonimasu starts digging into some NML
[21:52:46] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hands anonimasu a very BIG showel
[21:52:51] <anonimasu> thanks
[21:52:56] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:53:11] <alex_joni> -_^
[21:54:14] <anonimasu> but maybe I should wait until tomorrow afternoon when I have the machine in the shop connected
[21:54:52] <ray_> 1618kB on apt dialog
[21:55:03] <SWPadnos> ah yes - apt-get dialog fixed the problem
[21:55:17] <alex_joni> * alex_joni waits for comments
[21:56:01] <SWPadnos> does it output anything, or is this to show a possible UI?
[21:56:03] <alex_joni> it doesn't actually do anything ;)
[21:56:10] <alex_joni> just for possible UI
[21:56:10] <SWPadnos> OK
[21:56:19] <SWPadnos> It looks very debian-ish :)
[21:56:20] <alex_joni> it's a simple bash script
[21:56:40] <alex_joni> to me it looks very RH-ish (back to RH5.x )
[21:56:51] <alex_joni> the RedHat installer used to look this way ;)
[21:56:59] <SWPadnos> true
[21:57:18] <alex_joni> anyways.. what do you think?
[21:57:25] <alex_joni> should I go on on this path?
[21:57:30] <alex_joni> is it useable?
[21:57:37] <acemi> is there a way to start the next cycle after an outside signal is received?
[21:57:49] <alex_joni> acemi: what cycle?
[21:57:55] <acemi> G code
[21:57:59] <alex_joni> you mean wait for an input?
[21:58:03] <acemi> yes
[21:58:06] <alex_joni> what emc?
[21:58:11] <alex_joni> 1 / 2?
[21:58:12] <acemi> emc1
[21:58:30] <Jymmm> oh man... doesn't acme rod come in 4' lenghts?
[21:58:37] <ray_> * ray_ twiddles thumbs waiting for bits to dribble in.
[22:00:20] <alex_joni> acemi: afraid I don't know of a G-function that would do that
[22:00:38] <alex_joni> ray_: maybe you know one? (should wait for an input)
[22:01:11] <anonimasu> m00
[22:01:13] <anonimasu> ;)
[22:01:23] <anonimasu> should wait for a input..
[22:01:35] <anonimasu> or well, for a confrimation..
[22:01:56] <SWPadnos> alex_joni: That looks fine for a text-mode configurator. great! :)
[22:02:21] <anonimasu> hm..
[22:02:27] <anonimasu> I need to check it out tomorrow
[22:02:29] <anonimasu> :)
[22:02:29] <alex_joni> if you look at the file .. you'll see, I didn't do much ;)
[22:02:42] <SWPadnos> well - I'm easily impressed :)
[22:02:57] <SWPadnos> (It's the backend that'll be all the fun :) )
[22:03:14] <acemi> i'm trying to syncronize emc with an other machine
[22:03:48] <alex_joni> acemi: what if you used the probe signal?
[22:04:25] <acemi> i don't know what is probe signal, but i note it
[22:05:07] <alex_joni> well.. probing is used to move the tool (a probe) till it touches the part
[22:05:15] <alex_joni> that process is called probing
[22:05:39] <alex_joni> but you could hijack that function and make your mill move (very very slowly) till it gets an signal
[22:06:00] <alex_joni> it would think it touched the piece with the probe, but you wouldn't care
[22:06:28] <acemi> hmm, that wil work maybe
[22:06:45] <alex_joni> it's G38.2
[22:07:11] <ottos> day gents.
[22:07:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders what happens if acemi uses G38.2 with F0
[22:07:40] <acemi> thanks alex_joni, i'll try this
[22:07:49] <alex_joni> day ottos
[22:08:04] <alex_joni> acemi: you have a PROBE_INPUT in your ini file
[22:08:14] <alex_joni> that defines the input pin on the parport
[22:08:40] <acemi> i don't know, i use default ini files
[22:08:51] <alex_joni> generic.ini ?
[22:09:00] <acemi> emc.ini
[22:09:20] <alex_joni> BDI ?
[22:09:35] <acemi> BDI live CD
[22:14:21] <alex_joni> you might need to change the value in the ini
[22:14:39] <alex_joni> in the section [TRAJ] there is PROBE_INPUT
[22:14:46] <anonimasu> hm bbiab.. going to plug the mill in ;)
[22:15:05] <alex_joni> PROBE_INDEX ;)
[22:15:29] <acemi> i'll try this tomorrow (i'm at home now). i think, this is OK for me
[22:15:36] <alex_joni> acemi: I would try PROBE_INDEX = 11
[22:16:00] <alex_joni> that would be pin 11 on parport (S6)
[22:16:44] <alex_joni> ooops... sorry
[22:16:52] <acemi> ?
[22:17:39] <alex_joni> PROBE_INDEX = 3 should be S6 (pin 11 on parport)
[22:18:09] <alex_joni> I just checked and the parport driver numbers the inputs from 0-4 (S3-S7 on the parport)
[22:18:23] <alex_joni> but I never used this.. so I might be wrong :)
[22:18:43] <acemi> this is not a problem, i understand the way
[22:18:53] <alex_joni> but there's a probing.tcl script
[22:18:57] <alex_joni> that might help you
[22:19:12] <alex_joni> you run it, and it should show you when the signal is tripped or not
[22:21:08] <acemi> thanks alex_joni
[22:21:17] <alex_joni> don't mention it ;)
[22:23:11] <SWPadnos> "PROBE_INDEX=3 should be S6 (pin 11 on parport" - I guess that's why we're talking about a configurator :)
[22:23:24] <SWPadnos> (3 != 6 != 11)
[22:23:29] <alex_joni> SWP: that's read from the sources ;)
[22:24:06] <SWPadnos> I don't doubt its accuracy ;)
[22:24:51] <jmkasunich> ray_: you still here?
[22:25:02] <alex_joni> parport.c, extintf.h, extppt.c, emcmot.c
[22:25:06] <ray_> yep.
[22:25:10] <alex_joni> SWP: I do doubt it's accuracy ;)
[22:25:19] <SWPadnos> heh - smart man :)
[22:25:22] <jmkasunich> just sent you an email with the inventory of AC servo motors, etc...
[22:25:34] <ray_> k
[22:25:47] <Jymmm> AC ?
[22:25:52] <jmkasunich> yeah
[22:25:58] <Jymmm> no DC ?
[22:26:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni drools
[22:26:01] <jmkasunich> nope
[22:26:08] <alex_joni> AC is a lot better than DC ;)
[22:26:16] <jmkasunich> if you have the drives for them
[22:26:18] <alex_joni> if you got some nice servos..
[22:26:22] <alex_joni> right
[22:26:33] <Jymmm> oh servo, no stepper. my bad
[22:26:42] <alex_joni> power (speed) and control
[22:26:44] <Jymmm> s/no/not/
[22:27:10] <alex_joni> steppers got control, DC's got power, AC's got both ;)
[22:27:29] <Jymmm> who makes controllers for them?
[22:27:37] <alex_joni> you could ;)
[22:27:49] <alex_joni> it's a 6 transistor H-bridge
[22:27:55] <ottos> what size for the ac servos?
[22:27:57] <SWPadnos> Allen Bradley, Baldor, etc.
[22:28:11] <jmkasunich> 1 to 3 kW
[22:28:17] <SWPadnos> A 3E bridge?
[22:28:18] <ottos> nice..
[22:28:20] <alex_joni> perfect for small apps ;)
[22:28:32] <alex_joni> SWP: right
[22:28:53] <Jymmm> Eh, if there was a PCB laready, ok.
[22:29:00] <alex_joni> PWM at > 15kHz... and you're done ;)
[22:29:01] <jmkasunich> I have "axis modules", which contains the 3 phase H bridge, but not the control electronics
[22:29:19] <SWPadnos> cool - *that* I could use :)
[22:29:28] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: well, why the hell not?! =)
[22:29:36] <Jymmm> * Jymmm chuckles
[22:30:22] <jmkasunich> it's a modular product... control/power supply section connects to up to 4 axis modules
[22:30:29] <jmkasunich> url in a sec
[22:30:47] <alex_joni> * alex_joni prepares for bed
[22:30:54] <Jymmm> All you guys are just mean bastards you know that?! Torture me with XML, then tease me with AC servos!
[22:30:59] <SWPadnos> (If I had the time, it would be fun to make one of my Motorola DSPs control that motor)
[22:31:10] <alex_joni> SWP: what DSPs?
[22:31:26] <SWPadnos> <servo><type>AC</type></servo>
[22:31:36] <SWPadnos> I have a 56F800 development kit
[22:31:39] <jmkasunich> I may be able to bring some motors/axis modules to fest
[22:31:45] <SWPadnos> it has 6 PWM, and is meant for motor control
[22:31:49] <jmkasunich> to much hassle to ship them tho
[22:31:55] <alex_joni> SWP: cool
[22:32:17] <SWPadnos> actually, this one may have 2 banks of 6 PWM
[22:32:24] <SWPadnos> plus quadrature timers, etc.
[22:32:39] <Jymmm> lol @ SWPadnos
[22:33:22] <SWPadnos> In the words of some scantily-clad Star Trek lady "For what purpose?"
[22:34:10] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: oh that narrows downs the timeline...
[22:34:24] <SWPadnos> ST:TOS :)
[22:34:28] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what color is her skin? green?
[22:34:33] <SWPadnos> came out about the same time I did :)
[22:35:22] <Jymmm> TOS? TNG, DS9, ok, but TOS ?
[22:35:32] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[22:35:34] <anonimasu> goodnight everyone
[22:35:40] <alex_joni> night an0n
[22:35:42] <Jymmm> night anonimasu
[22:35:44] <SWPadnos> No - I think white. from the episode "Spock's Brain, I believe.
[22:35:48] <SWPadnos> night anonimasu
[22:36:05] <SWPadnos> "spock's Brain", I believe (there fingers - take that!)
[22:36:22] <SWPadnos> aaaargrggghhhh -Spock stupid fingers
[22:36:38] <Jymmm> \\//_
[22:36:48] <SWPadnos> thank you - same
[22:36:53] <Jymmm> lol
[22:37:31] <Jymmm> I much prefer 7of9 in costum or Dax
[22:37:48] <SWPadnos> Well - you have a point (several, actually)
[22:38:05] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees ;)
[22:38:17] <SWPadnos> Jeri Ryan to the rescue
[22:38:35] <Jymmm> she does NOT look the same out of costum though.
[22:38:53] <SWPadnos> I've never seen her out of costume - bummer
[22:39:05] <SWPadnos> (Oh - not dressed as a Borg :) )
[22:39:10] <Jymmm> shes been a in a few tv shows
[22:39:29] <SWPadnos> I've noticed that a lot of people look different when you're behind the camera
[22:39:34] <SWPadnos> and they are too
[22:39:35] <Jymmm> SWPadnos no, not dressed in that skin tight output with padding in all teh right places.
[22:39:45] <Jymmm> s/output/outfit/
[22:40:12] <SWPadnos> s/outfit/nothing/
[22:40:35] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Actually, she looks better in costum than nude imo
[22:40:50] <SWPadnos> indeed.
[22:41:24] <jmkasunich> not Jeri Ryan, but... http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/motors.jpg
[22:41:37] <joe2000chevy> hello
[22:41:43] <jmkasunich> hi
[22:41:58] <anonimasu> hm.. it just occured to me..
[22:41:59] <joe2000chevy> I just found and installed DBI/EMC
[22:42:01] <anonimasu> the fonts in linux suck..
[22:42:02] <anonimasu> :)
[22:42:12] <joe2000chevy> good looking program
[22:42:24] <SWPadnos> nice motors.
[22:42:32] <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: glad to hear that
[22:42:34] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is running with the display to the laptop inside..
[22:42:40] <joe2000chevy> worked right off the bat with my diy cnc router
[22:42:54] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wants some ;)
[22:43:02] <alex_joni> jmk: nice motors ;)
[22:43:07] <SWPadnos> I can't stand the size of my EMC machines screen - hence the cygwin-X scenario
[22:43:10] <joe2000chevy> just one thing i need to figure out is making it move 1" instead of .3"
[22:43:16] <jmkasunich> if they were lighter, I'd send you some
[22:43:17] <Jymmm> alex_joni: you get Radio Shack motors and like it!
[22:43:26] <SWPadnos> where are you?
[22:43:27] <paul_c> * paul_c notes BDI-4.18 will take another 6Hrs to upload....
[22:43:34] <jmkasunich> who, me or alex?
[22:43:40] <jmkasunich> I'm in Cleveland, OH
[22:43:49] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos thinks paul_c needs a faster upstream connection
[22:43:53] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos too
[22:43:55] <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: you actually tell it to move 1'' and it moves .3'' ?
[22:43:56] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: whats the dimensions (max) ?
[22:44:02] <jmkasunich> of the motors?
[22:44:04] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich: you.
[22:44:08] <alex_joni> SWP: it's sherlines connection that sux
[22:44:09] <SWPadnos> right - the motors :)
[22:44:10] <paul_c> join #clusterix
[22:44:11] <joe2000chevy> well thats the default
[22:44:28] <jmkasunich> most are about 4" square
[22:44:36] <anonimasu> hm, my nml poking can wait until tomorrow
[22:44:40] <jmkasunich> hold on while I look em up on the AB website
[22:44:45] <joe2000chevy> I'm using a 1/2" treaded rod 13 turns/in
[22:44:49] <paul_c> alex_joni: Not uploading to Sherline.
[22:44:51] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: length with shaft?
[22:44:53] <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: each axis has an parameter to tell it how the motor turning actually moves the table
[22:45:11] <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: you need to change that
[22:45:23] <joe2000chevy> in the INI?
[22:45:32] <SWPadnos> paul_c: is there an IP address I can get it from or is it linmited by your upstream speed?
[22:46:05] <paul_c> SWPadnos: Please don't hit my server tonight...
[22:46:17] <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: yes
[22:46:21] <paul_c> the www is slow enough as it is.
[22:46:29] <jmkasunich> www.ab.com/motion/servo/1326ab_460V.html
[22:46:30] <SWPadnos> I won't. I can put it on my webspace for pushing to the mirrors (and as a mirror)
[22:46:32] <Jymmm> SWPadnos (give his server an asprin, THEN hit it tongight)
[22:46:41] <jmkasunich> I have sizes 410, 420, and 520
[22:46:46] <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: I assume you have 3 axes?
[22:46:49] <anonimasu> well goodnight :)
[22:46:55] <paul_c> * paul_c hits Jymmm
[22:47:01] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: which has the max length with shaft?
[22:47:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hands Jymmm an aspirine
[22:47:15] <Jymmm> paul_c: awwww, I didn't know you cared *blush*
[22:47:30] <paul_c> SWPadnos: It should be on one of the mirrors by lunchtime tomorrow.
[22:47:43] <jmkasunich> I believe there is a PDF on that page, with dimension drawings
[22:47:46] <paul_c> * paul_c goes to get the *big* stick.
[22:47:49] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: anyhow, is it over 11" long?
[22:47:59] <jmkasunich> 410 us the shortest, might be under 11"
[22:48:00] <SWPadnos> that page doesn't load for me - 404
[22:48:44] <jmkasunich> I've had problems accessing the AB pages from linux - dumbasses must have optimized it for winblows
[22:48:56] <Jymmm> no, for sessions
[22:49:02] <SWPadnos> I'm on winblows, though using Mozilla
[22:49:28] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Ok, USPS does have unlimited weight (under 75#'s) if you use their boxes
[22:49:37] <jmkasunich> this box is linux, and I didn't even try - too many probs in the past... I have a win95 box running here too
[22:50:12] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: 11" x 8.5" x 5.5" and 12" x 3.5" x 14"
[22:50:46] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: You can NOT make the box expand out or will be rejected
[22:50:58] <jmkasunich> hmmm... most of mine are -21 catalog numbers, seems to mean they have resolvers
[22:51:00] <jmkasunich> yuck
[22:51:15] <jmkasunich> some are -SL or -ML tho, those have encoders
[22:51:22] <SWPadnos> paul_c: just offering to offload transfer from your machine(s) - I have a 192GB/month limit, and since there's nothing on my site yet, a BDI mirror is OK.
[22:51:27] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: flat rate $8
[22:51:56] <jmkasunich> it's not just the $8, it's the box, and foam, and time spent packing, etc, etc.
[22:52:14] <jmkasunich> hard to pack very dense objects so that will mail safely
[22:52:16] <paul_c> SWPadnos: I will bare it in mind when BDI-4.19 is ready.
[22:52:17] <SWPadnos> I'll treat you to Thai food for a couple of motors :)
[22:52:24] <SWPadnos> paul_c: ok
[22:52:57] <paul_c> * paul_c opens the ab.com page
[22:53:00] <jmkasunich> I offerred Ray dibs a while back, but you have a deal once he's got what he needs - I can bring them to fest
[22:53:06] <jmkasunich> (oh, you're flying...)
[22:53:08] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: fine, toss a stamp on them and throw in the mailbox!
[22:53:18] <SWPadnos> I'll see if I can stuff any under the seat in front of me on the way home :)
[22:53:23] <SWPadnos> (in a puddle jumper)
[22:53:31] <jmkasunich> we'll work out something
[22:53:50] <SWPadnos> cool - thanks. I've been wanting to experiment with 3-phase drives.
[22:54:17] <jmkasunich> I can give you a couple axis modules too... I have at least 16 of those
[22:54:34] <alex_joni> jmk: what transistors on those?
[22:54:43] <SWPadnos> that would be ideal for me - I'm much happier dealing with digital electronics and software than power electronics
[22:54:44] <jmkasunich> 1200V IGBTs
[22:55:02] <alex_joni> nice ;)
[22:55:09] <alex_joni> I'd want some of those ;)
[22:55:16] <SWPadnos> boy - that's a nice cabinet you've got there :)
[22:55:22] <jmkasunich> the module includes optically isolated gate drivers, LEM current feedback on two phases, and a PCB with an analog current loop and PWM generators
[22:55:35] <jmkasunich> you mean cabinet.jpg?
[22:55:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni whines
[22:55:45] <SWPadnos> no - the one the motors are in :)
[22:56:03] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/cabinet.jpg
[22:56:08] <SWPadnos> ooh - that one's cool too
[22:56:24] <jmkasunich> ray has dibs on that
[22:56:29] <SWPadnos> eek - Allen-Bradley - that must be a $9000 control panel
[22:56:51] <SWPadnos> what about the yellow cat carrier?
[22:56:56] <SWPadnos> (just kidding)
[22:57:00] <jmkasunich> the upper part is a 6180 industrial PC... 200MHZ pentium I think
[22:57:19] <SWPadnos> I've seen some on eBay - they're often going for $400-$1000, for similar speeds.
[22:57:47] <alex_joni> well .. this is it for me
[22:57:49] <SWPadnos> I bought a kiosk PC - celeron 500/256M/20G with 800x600 color LCD for $300
[22:57:50] <jmkasunich> this one is missing the special video card that drives the LCD, but I think I have one around here somewhere
[22:57:53] <alex_joni> night everybody
[22:57:56] <SWPadnos> night
[22:57:58] <jmkasunich> 'night alex
[22:58:11] <Jymmm> night alex_joni
[22:58:42] <jmkasunich> I just pulled an AB6181 out of the dumpster... newer than this... only about 10" x 8" x 6" deep, 600MHz P3
[22:59:09] <SWPadnos> I wish there were dumpsters like that around here.
[22:59:10] <paul_c> PC104 bus ?
[22:59:13] <Jymmm> jmkasunich man you have all the cool dumpsters over there!
[22:59:14] <jmkasunich> works fine, except that somebody broke the glass in front of the LCD and about 20% of the screen doesn't work
[22:59:45] <jmkasunich> shhhh... I work for AB.... the dumpster is where all the old trade show exhibits, etc, wind up
[22:59:49] <Jymmm> jmkasunich thats it? eeesh lcd's are easy to replce
[23:00:06] <SWPadnos> cool - I'll have to start hanging out at the loading docks
[23:00:10] <SWPadnos> (if we had any around here)
[23:00:18] <Jymmm> jmkasunich OHHHHHHHH.... I'll be there tuesday with a "garbage truck" =)
[23:01:09] <paul_c> It's only a few miles further east before you hit the coast
[23:01:27] <jmkasunich> further east from where?
[23:01:28] <paul_c> A chance to collect your lasers.
[23:01:50] <jmkasunich> where are you at Jymmm?
[23:01:57] <Jymmm> paul_c: Well, If I can grab a whole bounty in one shot, just might bw worht it then =)
[23:02:00] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Calif
[23:02:09] <jmkasunich> long haul there
[23:02:35] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Yeah, just the stuff sucks around here anymore, no more mfg.
[23:02:51] <Jymmm> there's more "FOR LEASE" than mfg'ing going on.
[23:03:35] <jmkasunich> mostly we have approx 3-4 year old PCs getting scrapped... but every once in a while a lab has a cleanup and good stuff appears
[23:04:03] <SWPadnos> I wish that would happen at the IBM plant down the street
[23:04:21] <jmkasunich> and sometimes there is nice puter stuff too, rackmount server stuff, etc
[23:05:35] <jmkasunich> this came from an old Exabyte tape changer. It will be the Y and Z axis for a tabletop wax/wood/plastic milling machine eventually http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/miniservo1.jpg
[23:07:20] <jmkasunich> 11" x 0.0001" on Y, 3.3" x 0.00016" on Z
[23:08:10] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I was just playing. I am only seriously looking for a operational CO2 laser, 50 - 140 Watts sealed of flowing.
[23:08:19] <Jymmm> s/of/or/
[23:08:25] <Jymmm> prefer flowing
[23:09:01] <jmkasunich> robinsz is our resident laser nut
[23:10:21] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I found TWO in NY, but unknown condition. the problem is the freight is more than both of them.
[23:10:38] <Jymmm> $800 for the lasers, $900 for the freight.
[23:10:51] <jmkasunich> yeah, freight sucks for big stuff
[23:10:53] <SWPadnos> I'm in Vermont, but I have no space for them :)
[23:11:07] <Jymmm> even if one worked bwtween the two, I'd be happy.
[23:11:12] <jmkasunich> there are usually some large lasers at one local surplus place here
[23:11:14] <joe2000chevy> ok how do i find the EMC.ini file?
[23:11:48] <joe2000chevy> in noew to linux as well
[23:11:51] <joe2000chevy> new
[23:12:06] <SWPadnos> it should be in your emc directory, /usr/local/emc/ (I think)
[23:12:21] <joe2000chevy> ok i will go look
[23:12:50] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=09-120-205
[23:13:10] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=09-120-214
[23:13:27] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=09-120-662
[23:14:45] <jmkasunich> how bout this one: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=20-101-001
[23:15:48] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'm workign with a couple places right now. Hopefully that'll work out.
[23:16:00] <ottos> ciao gents..
[23:16:09] <Jymmm> jmkasunich one being in SD area, so that's only a 6 hour drive.
[23:16:34] <jmkasunich> much better ;-)
[23:17:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Eh, we'll see. He seems a bit flaky. Anothe one in the midwest seems more interested in a colaberation
[23:17:34] <SWPadnos> South Dakota in 6 hours - impressive
[23:17:48] <jmkasunich> I'm guessing San Deigo
[23:17:49] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: SAN
[23:18:02] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: San Diego, not BFE
[23:18:19] <SWPadnos> (duh :) )
[23:18:50] <Jymmm> Though I have made it from LA to LAughlin in 3 hours 17 minutes.
[23:19:16] <SWPadnos> Pittsburgh PA to Burlington VT in 7 hours
[23:19:24] <jmkasunich> wow
[23:19:32] <SWPadnos> in a minivan
[23:19:50] <jmkasunich> grew up near Pitts... when you start at the west end, PA is a _wide_ state
[23:19:59] <SWPadnos> that it is.
[23:20:24] <jmkasunich> even wider when you start in ohio ;-)
[23:20:30] <SWPadnos> hold on - I may have been remembering wrong - that could have been State College to Burlington
[23:20:39] <SWPadnos> (it was so many years ago :) )
[23:21:15] <joe2000chevy> ok i need to fix my linear scale right now it is .32" on screen instead of 1" movement on machine
[23:21:32] <jmkasunich> joe2000chevy: steppers or servos?
[23:21:40] <joe2000chevy> steppers
[23:21:47] <jmkasunich> leadscrew pitch?
[23:21:58] <joe2000chevy> 13 turns per inch
[23:22:08] <joe2000chevy> 1/2" threaded rod
[23:22:19] <jmkasunich> direct drive, or belts and pulleys, gears, etc?
[23:22:21] <joe2000chevy> in mach1 i use 20800
[23:22:36] <jmkasunich> ok, did you try that with EMC?
[23:23:22] <joe2000chevy> i tried to change the 1000 but there are three places where it is 1000 input and output and also P=1000
[23:23:44] <jmkasunich> leave P=1000 alone
[23:23:54] <joe2000chevy> ok
[23:23:56] <jmkasunich> you are looking for "input scale" and "output scale"
[23:24:17] <jmkasunich> actually with steppers you should only need to change one, but I don't remember which one, just change them both
[23:24:31] <joe2000chevy> ok i will try it now. brb
[23:27:14] <jmkasunich> any suggestions for a small, fast spindle for a light duty mill/engraver?
[23:27:31] <joe2000chevy> still shows the same.... i" on machine and 0.33 in program?
[23:28:06] <joe2000chevy> thats the meric conversion number? .32808
[23:28:19] <jmkasunich> I don't think so
[23:28:29] <joe2000chevy> .3208
[23:28:30] <jmkasunich> which axis did you change?
[23:28:33] <joe2000chevy> all
[23:28:53] <joe2000chevy> 0, 1 amd 2
[23:28:56] <joe2000chevy> and
[23:29:20] <paul_c> what icon, and which ini are you editing ?
[23:29:50] <joe2000chevy> emc.ini
[23:29:56] <joe2000chevy> no icon?
[23:30:09] <SWPadnos> how do you actually run EMC?
[23:30:12] <jmkasunich> how are you starting emc? icon or command line?
[23:30:25] <joe2000chevy> desktop
[23:30:42] <joe2000chevy> icon
[23:30:55] <paul_c> which version of the BDI did you install ?
[23:31:12] <jmkasunich> ok... that icon uses a specific ini file... not neccessarily the one you edited
[23:31:13] <joe2000chevy> the latest one, i think
[23:31:32] <paul_c> BDI-4.18 ?
[23:31:46] <joe2000chevy> how do i find out the version on that machine?
[23:31:57] <joe2000chevy> i just downloaded it a week ago
[23:32:16] <joe2000chevy> forgive me I'm new to Linux also.
[23:32:20] <jmkasunich> do you know how to open a shell prompt (command line)?
[23:32:37] <paul_c> Is there an icon on the desktop �Instructions" ?
[23:32:39] <les> isn't generic.ini default?
[23:32:40] <joe2000chevy> icon yes
[23:33:01] <paul_c> Two icons for Sherline ?
[23:33:25] <joe2000chevy> yes
[23:33:57] <paul_c> OK.. Use the K menu ->EMC->generic
[23:34:17] <paul_c> and edit /usr/local/emc/generic.ini
[23:34:31] <joe2000chevy> ok
[23:34:32] <joe2000chevy> brb
[23:34:54] <SWPadnos> Looks like there should be some indication of the BDI version in an easy to find location :)
[23:34:56] <jmkasunich> I hate icons
[23:34:59] <paul_c> The two Sherline icons are for Sherline mills and linked to the two sherline ini files.
[23:35:05] <SWPadnos> (like a file in /etc, called BDIVersion
[23:35:07] <SWPadnos> )
[23:35:24] <jmkasunich> uname -a
[23:35:33] <jmkasunich> if you can get them to open a shell
[23:35:41] <SWPadnos> nope
[23:35:53] <SWPadnos> that shows kernel version and other stuff, but not BDI version
[23:36:00] <jmkasunich> doesn't spell out what BDI it is
[23:36:03] <paul_c> CD->RELEASE.NOTES
[23:36:10] <jmkasunich> but paul can figure it out from uname
[23:36:22] <SWPadnos> is RELEASE_NOTES installed to CD?
[23:36:29] <paul_c> BDI-4.18 onwards will have the update log in it.
[23:36:33] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich: true
[23:36:45] <SWPadnos> OK. that should solve some support issues :)
[23:37:05] <paul_c> RELEASE.NOTES will be on the CD that was used for the install.
[23:37:31] <joe2000chevy> is the input scale number supose to be so far away or so many spaces in it?
[23:37:45] <SWPadnos> right - but that won't always be available - copying that file to the HD during install wouldn't hurt
[23:38:05] <jmkasunich> joe2000chevy: you mean it is far to the right, but on the same line as the name?
[23:38:54] <jmkasunich> there shouldn't be any spaces _inside_ the number
[23:39:10] <jmkasunich> but you can have any amount of space between the name and number, as long as they're on the same line
[23:40:37] <joe2000chevy> yes same line.....
[23:40:50] <joe2000chevy> ok in generic it moves .25 in program
[23:41:01] <jmkasunich> and 1" on machine?
[23:41:35] <joe2000chevy> yes
[23:41:44] <jmkasunich> change scale to 5200
[23:41:49] <joe2000chevy> and axis is backwards :(
[23:42:12] <joe2000chevy> can i just use the sherline one?
[23:42:16] <jmkasunich> I _think_ you could change both input scale and output scale to -5200 to fix that but I'm not sure
[23:42:22] <jmkasunich> no, use generic
[23:42:34] <joe2000chevy> the generic looks plain... lol
[23:43:05] <joe2000chevy> -5200 or 5200?
[23:43:24] <jmkasunich> either one should fix your 1" = 0.25" problem
[23:43:31] <jmkasunich> I think the minus will reverse the axis
[23:45:14] <joe2000chevy> yup that did it for the inches, GREAT :)
[23:45:32] <joe2000chevy> i just need the revesal now
[23:45:49] <jmkasunich> minus 5200 didn't fix that?
[23:45:51] <joe2000chevy> for Y and Z
[23:46:06] <joe2000chevy> i will try that, both input and output?
[23:46:10] <jmkasunich> yes
[23:46:45] <joe2000chevy> and 0,1 or 2? 0=x? 1=y? 2=z?
[23:46:54] <jmkasunich> you got it
[23:46:59] <joe2000chevy> kewl
[23:48:50] <joe2000chevy> ok that worked.... its just right now....
[23:48:56] <jmkasunich> cool
[23:49:19] <joe2000chevy> how can i use the nice interface sherline uses?
[23:49:42] <jmkasunich> dunno... I'm not the user interface expert
[23:50:05] <jmkasunich> if Ray was still here he could tell you
[23:50:23] <joe2000chevy> ok
[23:50:53] <jmkasunich> paul_c might know too.....
[23:52:10] <jmkasunich> near the top of the ini file is a section called [DISPLAY], inside it there are probably several lines like "DISPLAY = tkemc", etc... all but one will have either a # or ; in front
[23:52:13] <joe2000chevy> he should be in bed now.
[23:52:33] <jmkasunich> is there one that says "DISPLAY = mini"?
[23:52:37] <joe2000chevy> im in texas
[23:53:15] <paul_c> mini is the Sherline GUI
[23:53:35] <paul_c> just replace tkemc with mini and go.
[23:53:36] <joe2000chevy> can it be used instead of generic?
[23:53:57] <jmkasunich> right - can he do "DISPLAY = mini" in his generic.ini file to use the sherline GUI with a non-sherline machine?
[23:53:58] <joe2000chevy> how?
[23:55:00] <paul_c> Or do you mean "Use the Sherline desktop icons" with generic.ini ?
[23:55:06] <jmkasunich> you still want to use the generic icon I think... that has your machine config in it... if you change the line that says "DISPLAY = tkemc" to "DISPLAY = mini" I think it will let you use the sherline display
[23:55:54] <joe2000chevy> ok i will try it now :)
[23:56:30] <joe2000chevy> it already has tkemc
[23:56:53] <SWPadnos> whoami
[23:57:01] <SWPadnos> don't answer that
[23:57:24] <paul_c> * paul_c would answer, but....
[23:57:37] <joe2000chevy> yup mini worked
[23:58:57] <SWPadnos> (keyboard focus problem)
[23:59:11] <SWPadnos> it is cool to have an EMC terminal on my sindows machine, though
[23:59:23] <SWPadnos> hmmm - Sindows - I like it
[23:59:45] <Jymmm> swindows!