#emc | Logs for 2005-02-01

[00:12:43] <les> gezr: our first and only Home Depot in the county is set to open in may
[00:13:02] <les> 40 mile drive to get to one now
[00:14:34] <les> I did not get to paint those enclosures...low on primer.
[00:14:53] <les> Have a trip for supplies as well I guess
[00:18:15] <robin_sz> hey les, yu about?
[00:18:44] <robin_sz> * robin_sz needs a little motioneering help
[00:27:30] <les> i'm here now...
[00:27:58] <les> irc tag.
[00:28:37] <robin_sz> ok
[00:28:47] <les> question?
[00:28:48] <robin_sz> the figures im getting dont make sense
[00:28:55] <les> how so
[00:29:12] <robin_sz> I get teeny weeny motor sizes ..
[00:29:16] <robin_sz> like 3.5W
[00:29:24] <les> uh oh
[00:29:42] <les> so you pot in reducers
[00:29:49] <les> and inertias
[00:29:54] <robin_sz> uh huh
[00:29:54] <les> all that
[00:30:06] <robin_sz> im obviously missing someting
[00:30:17] <les> a units thing?
[00:30:35] <robin_sz> mmm, dont think so ...
[00:30:41] <robin_sz> probably a concepts thing
[00:30:45] <les> using mks?
[00:30:50] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[00:31:10] <robin_sz> 30kg gantry
[00:31:11] <les> I have found the math to be correct
[00:31:21] <les> but lets do a manual sanity check
[00:31:24] <robin_sz> k
[00:31:41] <les> ok 30 kG mass
[00:31:45] <les> drive?
[00:31:52] <robin_sz> toothed belt
[00:32:02] <robin_sz> but lets say rack and pinion,
[00:32:07] <les> Pinion size?
[00:32:12] <robin_sz> as thats effectively what it is
[00:32:14] <robin_sz> 50mm
[00:32:19] <les> k
[00:32:37] <les> desired accel?
[00:32:49] <robin_sz> say, 0.2g
[00:33:09] <les> k 2 m/s^2
[00:33:17] <les> transmission ratio?
[00:33:25] <robin_sz> guess ... 5:1
[00:33:34] <les> ok
[00:33:43] <les> getting a pencil
[00:34:33] <les> 60 N force required
[00:34:50] <les> not much
[00:35:02] <robin_sz> nope, light
[00:35:15] <robin_sz> speeds?
[00:36:25] <robin_sz> 300mm/s rapids 200mm/s G1
[00:36:55] <les> so 60n* .025m=1.5 Nm torque
[00:37:13] <les> divide by 5
[00:37:27] <robin_sz> oh, bugger all then :)
[00:37:39] <les> =only .3 nM
[00:38:07] <robin_sz> where did the 0.025 come from?
[00:38:22] <les> radius of pinion in meters
[00:38:25] <robin_sz> right
[00:38:34] <robin_sz> actually, that was a guess
[00:38:45] <les> now power is just torque times speed
[00:38:56] <robin_sz> its a 32T pulley on 5mm pitch .. 160mm/rev
[00:39:02] <les> angular velocity
[00:39:08] <les> in radians/s
[00:39:29] <robin_sz> right ...
[00:39:53] <les> so what is your rpm at the motor for 0.3 m/s?
[00:40:26] <robin_sz> 120
[00:40:36] <robin_sz> * 5
[00:40:40] <robin_sz> 600
[00:40:41] <les> ok times 2*PI
[00:41:01] <robin_sz> 3800 ish
[00:41:25] <les> k
[00:42:04] <les> 3800*.3=1138 watts
[00:42:12] <les> sound about right?
[00:42:25] <robin_sz> seems high ... but that peak I guess
[00:42:35] <les> yes that is peak
[00:43:09] <les> but still does seem high
[00:43:43] <robin_sz> one moment
[00:43:54] <A-L-P-H-A> does anyone know what the pully teeth number/diameter, teeth pitch/spacing is for an XL timing gear?
[00:44:11] <robin_sz> motor RPM and ... thats radians per minute
[00:44:14] <robin_sz> mot second!
[00:44:26] <robin_sz> not second
[00:44:41] <les> oh that's the problem haha
[00:44:48] <les> divide by 60
[00:45:09] <robin_sz> 300mm /second = 2 pinion revs = 10 motor revs
[00:45:18] <les> Alpha: the Gates web site has that info
[00:45:24] <robin_sz> 62.8 rads/second
[00:45:33] <A-L-P-H-A> les? I don't know the "Gates" website.
[00:45:47] <robin_sz> Gates rubber, they make belts
[00:45:51] <les> google Gates timing belt
[00:46:07] <A-L-P-H-A> I see. :)
[00:46:12] <les> ok 62.8*.3
[00:46:27] <robin_sz> 25 watts then
[00:46:37] <les> sounds much better
[00:46:41] <robin_sz> bugger all :)
[00:46:57] <les> need to put in friction etc
[00:47:20] <robin_sz> yeah ... first I need to see if I can get the same values out of motioneering :)
[00:47:30] <les> and...if it is a 1:1 inertia match to the motor...double it
[00:47:56] <les> gotta really watch that number
[00:48:00] <robin_sz> 1:1 is the aim then?
[00:48:12] <les> no not really
[00:48:23] <les> but it should be less than about 5
[00:48:29] <robin_sz> 'k
[00:48:54] <les> if the load dominates servo will detune as load changes
[00:49:30] <A-L-P-H-A> les, robin_sz, couldn't find any XL gear specs... just belts, but not pitch info and stuff
[00:49:30] <les> if motor dominates it's dragging down the whole system and is the wrong choice
[00:49:43] <robin_sz> right
[00:50:08] <les> alpha: It's buried in there somewhere
[00:50:22] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: its out there ... try the Transdev site ...
[00:50:26] <les> If this is a new design and is for cnc...
[00:50:40] <les> I would suggest GT rather than XL
[00:50:41] <robin_sz> dont use XL :)
[00:50:48] <robin_sz> or .. better still
[00:51:00] <robin_sz> ATL
[00:51:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I have XL belts and other XL pulleys already... that's why.
[00:51:23] <les> I see
[00:51:52] <A-L-P-H-A> so I've got a pully I need to make custom this time... and trying to use what I have to drive this custom one.
[00:52:19] <les> oohh custom timing pully
[00:52:29] <les> lots of work
[00:53:12] <A-L-P-H-A> yes. I know and understand this. I will soon have a rotary axis, and I already have a milling attachment, so making isn't too much of an issue.
[00:53:33] <les> as long as you are having a good time...
[00:54:18] <A-L-P-H-A> I also have gear cutters... which I don't know how much they will help me. :)
[00:54:28] <les> robin: so motioneering should be giving you about 50 watts plus friction
[00:54:53] <robin_sz> nah,
[00:55:19] <robin_sz> 21 including ...!!
[00:55:45] <les> Alpha: I think XL is just trapezoidal
[00:55:47] <robin_sz> ive obviously got a thinko here
[00:55:55] <les> you got 21 from it?
[00:56:03] <robin_sz> 21 including friction
[00:56:13] <les> ok that sounds real
[00:56:19] <robin_sz> so im putting someting in the wrong place
[00:56:58] <les> well it will be 20 ish if the inertia ratio motor/load is low
[00:57:09] <les> will be 50 ish if it's 1
[00:57:26] <les> it does calculater it
[00:57:32] <les> calculate
[00:57:35] <robin_sz> k
[00:57:50] <robin_sz> so basically, almost any small servo will do this
[00:58:07] <les> don't know the friction
[00:58:25] <robin_sz> low
[00:58:31] <robin_sz> its linear rail
[00:58:37] <les> 100 W servo is safe
[00:58:38] <robin_sz> 10N maybe
[00:58:57] <les> yeaH
[00:59:05] <les> 2:1 SAFETY FACTOR
[00:59:09] <robin_sz> right
[00:59:53] <robin_sz> so basically, choose a motor of around 100W, and adjust the gearbox ratio until the inertia match is around 3;1
[01:00:10] <les> That will be $75...oh I forgot you gave me those vendors for my client yesterday
[01:00:12] <les> haha
[01:00:22] <robin_sz> hah :)
[01:00:35] <les> inertia ratio from 0.5 to about 3 yes
[01:00:49] <robin_sz> ive just been looking at the Baldor stuff,
[01:00:58] <robin_sz> very nice .. and half the price of Burny
[01:00:59] <les> It used to be more critical back when amps were expensive
[01:01:29] <les> I had better check baldor as well then
[01:01:42] <robin_sz> yeah, its neat stuff
[01:01:47] <les> ok that's another $50 credit for you
[01:01:49] <A-L-P-H-A> Well, I back calculated the XL gear stuff... from http://www.econobelt.com/Q460/RFQ/default.asp?Page=Pg_1-018_1.html
[01:01:55] <robin_sz> find their 'Mint NC' package
[01:02:10] <A-L-P-H-A> horray for my degree in math ... :)
[01:02:16] <robin_sz> its a front end for shape cutting machines :)
[01:02:31] <les> I'm a math guy too..but an aero engineer
[01:03:02] <robin_sz> s/aero engineer/spray gun operator/
[01:03:11] <les> heh right
[01:03:22] <les> soon plc programmer
[01:03:27] <les> then goof off
[01:03:36] <robin_sz> im a electronics engineer and programmer .. err welder and painter
[01:03:46] <les> haha
[01:04:15] <gezr> I just failed at an attempt to build a simple box
[01:04:29] <robin_sz> so what the difference between 'slide weight' and 'weight of carried axis' in motioneering?
[01:04:35] <les> I failed at painting a simple box
[01:04:41] <robin_sz> or does it just ad them together as "stuff I have to move"
[01:04:50] <les> robin: nothing
[01:04:55] <robin_sz> right
[01:05:03] <les> put the weight in either place
[01:05:13] <les> mass rather
[01:05:30] <robin_sz> it was them called it weight, not me :)
[01:05:50] <les> they divide by g
[01:05:55] <les> G
[01:06:09] <les> clones
[01:06:41] <robin_z> hmmm
[01:06:48] <robin_z> les: look over this
[01:06:49] <robin_z> http://www.baldor.co.uk/products/mint/mintnc.asp
[01:07:06] <les> oh...put in something for transmission moment of inertia
[01:07:10] <les> it matters
[01:07:16] <les> looking
[01:07:28] <robin_z> easy to use and configurable front end for the various balodr controllers .. demo at the bottom of page 17mb
[01:07:47] <robin_z> I wonder where paul_c is hanging out this week ..
[01:07:54] <robin_z> holiday huh ;)
[01:08:40] <les> whereever...he isn't over jet lag
[01:09:14] <les> baldor looks ok
[01:09:21] <les> and cheap?
[01:09:51] <robin_z> for my plasma, its about 1K GBP for motors/drives/gearboxes
[01:10:01] <les> pretty good
[01:10:02] <robin_z> 600 for the controller
[01:10:16] <robin_z> sorry, 1K per axis
[01:10:30] <les> much cheaper than Burny?
[01:10:44] <robin_z> oh yes ... I said Burny was EXPENSIVE!
[01:10:49] <robin_z> but, idiot proof
[01:10:54] <les> hmm
[01:11:13] <robin_s> doh
[01:11:15] <robin_s> (like 6k2 ... for a complete 2 axis system)
[01:11:24] <les> ULP
[01:11:32] <robin_s> yeah. gulp
[01:11:44] <robin_s> I fgure it will be 60% of that statside
[01:11:59] <les> Kinda depends on the depth of client's pockets
[01:12:05] <robin_s> yep
[01:12:33] <robin_s> the burny stuff is *nice* though ... you'd have to add a case to put it in
[01:12:37] <les> If their money buys it I tend to be not cheap haha
[01:12:46] <robin_s> quite
[01:12:54] <robin_s> right, thanks for the input ...
[01:12:57] <robin_s> I need sleep
[01:13:07] <les> less chance of me looking as if I gave them bad advice
[01:13:18] <robin_s> yip
[01:13:24] <les> yes sleep...and I have to run to town
[01:13:57] <les> later
[02:55:17] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr what happened to your simple box?
[02:55:44] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to sit down now, and figure out the electronics for my mill again. :) been so many months since i've even turned it one. :/
[02:55:54] <A-L-P-H-A> well.. the powersupply for the steppers
[09:21:39] <anonimasu> hey
[11:11:41] <anonimasu> hello
[11:37:44] <A-L-P-H-A> hi!
[11:40:08] <les> morning
[11:40:31] <les> (here)
[11:40:55] <les> uh oh...snow and sleet today
[11:41:14] <les> may not get to run the machine if power quality is poor
[11:42:48] <A-L-P-H-A> very earlymorning here.
[11:42:52] <A-L-P-H-A> it's 6:45am
[11:43:07] <les> same here
[11:43:16] <A-L-P-H-A> Toronto, Ontario! :)
[11:43:21] <A-L-P-H-A> I forget where everyone else is from.
[11:43:42] <A-L-P-H-A> there is still no sunlight outside.
[11:43:46] <A-L-P-H-A> :(
[11:43:50] <les> I am in northeast Georgia in the southern mountains
[11:44:13] <les> no light here either
[11:44:50] <les> When we have bad weather here the power is a bit unreliable
[11:45:06] <les> CNC machines don't like that!
[11:45:26] <A-L-P-H-A> no. I wouldn't expect so.
[11:45:35] <A-L-P-H-A> I just finally wired up the stepper motors for my mill... :)
[11:45:44] <A-L-P-H-A> everything seems good, but haven't powered them on yet.
[11:45:51] <les> great
[11:46:21] <les> I may be wiring some steppers for a client today if I can't run the cnc
[11:46:24] <A-L-P-H-A> took me 2 hours, to shrink warp, check, double check, tripple check my wiring.
[11:46:53] <les> bipolar?
[11:47:16] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
[11:47:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't have a clue what two of them are... [x and y], but my z is 440oz/in or 3-4nm
[11:48:22] <les> seems plenty for a small mill
[11:49:01] <les> I will be doing another mill as soon as I can find one
[11:49:21] <les> A BP sreies 2 or something like that
[11:49:21] <A-L-P-H-A> it's a benchtop mill... I _need_ to weld up a nice solid table for it... it's on this sheetmetal stand... which is very shakey.
[11:49:52] <A-L-P-H-A> I wouldn't mind a BP series 2. :)
[11:50:11] <les> I keep plenty of 2x2x.125 square welded tubing for tables
[11:50:22] <A-L-P-H-A> but most places that have a decent one want to charge me like 2K. And a shibby one with poor backlash, for $700K CDN.
[11:50:24] <les> At auction they are almost free
[11:50:52] <A-L-P-H-A> steel tubing is relatively cheap anyways.
[11:50:54] <les> especially the cnc ones with no handles for manual use
[11:51:17] <A-L-P-H-A> les? what? BP type mills?
[11:51:20] <les> Most of the cost is just moving it
[11:51:43] <A-L-P-H-A> I've seen some CRAZY people bid like $5K cdn, $4K USD on a used mill.
[11:51:43] <les> yes... many had no manual handles
[11:52:04] <A-L-P-H-A> les, dang... I need to go to the auctions around you.
[11:52:10] <A-L-P-H-A> people in Toronto, are CRAZY!
[11:52:18] <les> I want one in good shape with old fried or stepper controls
[11:52:26] <A-L-P-H-A> moving it would have cost me like $200-300 just to move it.
[11:52:47] <les> That much to move one is typical
[11:52:48] <A-L-P-H-A> I want one that's dead... with a working spindle.
[11:52:57] <A-L-P-H-A> but I'm in the CITY!
[11:53:04] <les> and good ways and ballscrews
[11:53:20] <les> Well I was in Chicago
[11:53:24] <A-L-P-H-A> ballscrews, I can get... they aren't precision ball screws, but they do the job nicely... www.roton.com
[11:53:27] <les> bought lots of tools
[11:54:08] <les> I use HIWIN...but if the machine is from qa school it might have good ballscrews
[11:54:10] <A-L-P-H-A> what toys did you get?
[11:54:17] <A-L-P-H-A> qa?
[11:54:25] <les> hmm
[11:54:33] <A-L-P-H-A> Quality Assurance?
[11:54:39] <les> let me link a tool list
[11:54:47] <A-L-P-H-A> roton.com is very affordable...
[11:55:19] <A-L-P-H-A> I forget the precision on them now.
[11:55:34] <les> http://lmwatts.com/shop.html
[11:56:58] <A-L-P-H-A> you have patents? :) cool.
[11:57:03] <les> many of those tools were rebuilt or restored stuff from Chicago auctions or plant closings
[11:57:24] <les> I do have lots of patents for what they are worth
[11:57:49] <A-L-P-H-A> AHHA!!!! <not a laught> you are the guy that had the indexable tooling that was being sold...
[11:57:57] <A-L-P-H-A> I saw that before, and the idea is great!
[11:58:24] <les> A good example of the tools I got was my boyar surface grinder
[11:58:32] <les> It was FREE
[11:58:43] <A-L-P-H-A> free?
[11:58:46] <A-L-P-H-A> ?FREE?
[11:58:51] <A-L-P-H-A> dang.
[11:58:53] <A-L-P-H-A> nice.
[11:58:53] <les> I stripped it, repainted, and rescraped the ways
[11:59:10] <les> I got several surface grinders for free
[11:59:23] <A-L-P-H-A> why? cause they were lots of work to redo?
[11:59:49] <les> I scraped it in woth a lab grade plate (+/- 25 millionths)
[12:00:07] <les> Yes...so much so that they are just scrapped
[12:00:24] <anonimasu> hello
[12:00:35] <les> It is hard to justify that stuff in business
[12:00:36] <A-L-P-H-A> ahh... I could have picked up a engine lathe for free... but it's been sitting in the rain for probably 7 years.
[12:00:45] <les> uh oh
[12:00:50] <les> hello anon
[12:00:51] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah. exactly.
[12:00:52] <anonimasu> I need a surface grinder :)
[12:00:53] <A-L-P-H-A> hey anonimasu
[12:01:19] <les> I bought 5 Boxford lathes from a college
[12:01:20] <A-L-P-H-A> les, if you wanted to resell it, how much could you get for it? after your work to it.
[12:01:33] <A-L-P-H-A> les, how much?
[12:01:33] <les> fixed up one and sold the others
[12:01:47] <les> the grinder?
[12:01:48] <anonimasu> I long until I am off work for today
[12:01:55] <anonimasu> so I can finally set up the mill
[12:01:57] <A-L-P-H-A> no the lathes. but my other question too.
[12:02:13] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu. :) I got mine wired yesterday. :)
[12:02:19] <les> in the '80s they sold for 6k
[12:02:20] <anonimasu> mine's running ;)
[12:02:25] <les> I sold for 2
[12:02:28] <anonimasu> although I havent entered the settings yet..
[12:02:31] <anonimasu> I have them on paper :D
[12:02:32] <A-L-P-H-A> have to turn on the power supply to see if I'll blow any fuses. :(
[12:02:39] <anonimasu> lol
[12:02:44] <anonimasu> scary
[12:02:49] <A-L-P-H-A> it is actually.
[12:02:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I've blow 3 gecko g201's... cause of that.
[12:03:02] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: argh
[12:03:10] <anonimasu> I use a old welder as PSU
[12:03:10] <les> With big stuff I slowly power up with a Variac
[12:03:20] <A-L-P-H-A> Mariss says one is fine... but the other two are dead. I think one is repairable, and can be scavenged from the 3rd.
[12:03:21] <anonimasu> that's scary..
[12:03:26] <les> watching for smoke
[12:03:33] <anonimasu> if I short anything it'll rain sparks..
[12:03:55] <anonimasu> I guess I could EDM with the powersupply
[12:03:59] <A-L-P-H-A> the one he says is fine, I keep blowing fuses... maybe I wired the motor up wrong. dunno.
[12:04:05] <anonimasu> if I short the cables.. aginst the machine
[12:04:14] <A-L-P-H-A> I want an WIRE edm machine... :) that would be the bomb.
[12:04:18] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:04:20] <anonimasu> * anonimasu too
[12:04:28] <anonimasu> I'll build a edm head eventually
[12:04:32] <anonimasu> for the mill..
[12:04:45] <anonimasu> to do super precise holes..
[12:05:02] <anonimasu> or maybe a 10x10 edm machine.. :)
[12:05:05] <A-L-P-H-A> and why do you need super precise holes?
[12:05:10] <anonimasu> I dont know.. :D
[12:05:15] <anonimasu> carbide?
[12:05:56] <les> I am wondering if I should be sharpening carbide in house
[12:06:00] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm trying to figure out what I can make with my mill. :)
[12:06:01] <anonimasu> I just want to be able to do stull like that..
[12:06:03] <A-L-P-H-A> something profitable.
[12:06:14] <A-L-P-H-A> les, probably not.
[12:06:15] <les> sending out tools is a logistical problem
[12:06:27] <anonimasu> I'll do the cnc porting of my engine head as soon as I get the mill running 100%
[12:06:44] <A-L-P-H-A> that's scary.
[12:06:49] <anonimasu> :p
[12:06:55] <A-L-P-H-A> I was already scared to drill and tap the mill's base...
[12:07:00] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is a kamikaze pilot
[12:07:09] <anonimasu> or well, kamikaze machinist..
[12:07:09] <A-L-P-H-A> though I did it... and it turned out awesome.
[12:07:22] <les> I get about 6-8 hrs out of a $50 carbide spiral cutter
[12:07:45] <les> in some cases that is one day!
[12:07:54] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: I'd make a trial of wood first
[12:09:11] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: hence the reason I am looking into feedrate control right now ;)
[12:09:43] <les> force based?
[12:10:01] <les> i remember
[12:10:08] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:10:22] <anonimasu> Speed & amp sensing
[12:10:33] <anonimasu> although I'd love to measure it on the servos..
[12:10:42] <les> I find the very best protection (with servos) is to set ferror estop very very tight
[12:11:06] <les> it will estop on ferror even if the tool gets a little dull
[12:11:28] <anonimasu> oh, I want a slower feed when taking violent cuts.. if the load gets too high...
[12:11:30] <les> if any unplanned cutting happens it stops
[12:12:16] <les> Only recently could we do this with emc
[12:12:31] <les> ferror was broken until a few months ago
[12:12:42] <anonimasu> are you using a STG card?
[12:12:44] <les> math error in the code
[12:12:49] <les> yes stg
[12:12:51] <anonimasu> ah ok
[12:12:54] <anonimasu> I dont have anything like that
[12:12:56] <anonimasu> just geckos
[12:13:19] <les> well gecko is a true servo
[12:13:39] <les> it's just that the computer does not know where things are
[12:13:43] <anonimasu> yeah..
[12:13:49] <anonimasu> the geckos are great..
[12:13:52] <les> gecko does to what..128 counts?
[12:13:56] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:14:36] <les> well on a 2000 count quad encoder and 5 mm pitch
[12:14:51] <anonimasu> that's what I have ;)
[12:15:00] <anonimasu> 1000 line..
[12:15:08] <anonimasu> but that is 2000 on the gecko..
[12:15:20] <les> thats 0.32 mm
[12:15:26] <les> not bad
[12:15:41] <anonimasu> hm..
[12:15:48] <anonimasu> but I gear it 1:4..
[12:15:51] <anonimasu> err 4:1
[12:16:03] <anonimasu> since I have small servos..
[12:16:17] <les> oh
[12:16:25] <les> so .08 mm
[12:16:26] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, when someone stats gears ratios.. what does that mean? Driving parent to child?
[12:16:38] <anonimasu> depends..
[12:16:48] <anonimasu> but it's that way I sate em..
[12:17:07] <anonimasu> les: hm, you mean per encoder count?
[12:17:11] <A-L-P-H-A> I need some breakfast... hungry...
[12:17:15] <anonimasu> or max following error?
[12:17:21] <les> max ferror
[12:17:24] <anonimasu> ah ok..
[12:17:43] <les> .08mm will estop for you
[12:17:48] <anonimasu> is that's much?
[12:17:49] <les> that's fine
[12:18:05] <anonimasu> I wonder where it's at when cutting..
[12:18:24] <anonimasu> I want somthing around 0.01
[12:18:24] <les> too much force will deflect the p gain "spring"
[12:19:20] <les> on a mill you would need ff to get ferror that low I think
[12:19:28] <anonimasu> ff?
[12:19:34] <anonimasu> feedforward?
[12:19:35] <les> feedforward
[12:19:39] <anonimasu> ah yeah
[12:19:55] <les> or velocity mode
[12:20:19] <les> not sure if Geckos are current mode or velocity
[12:20:38] <les> I use current mode due to the higher bandwidth
[12:20:52] <A-L-P-H-A> les, I'm re-reading your article on scraping. How come I could just get a nice preground plate that I bolt to a resonably flat surface, and mount rails onto that preground plate?
[12:20:58] <les> but then I am running at very high speeds
[12:21:06] <A-L-P-H-A> could=couldn't
[12:21:27] <les> you can get a preground plate
[12:21:49] <les> In the example shown it was a couple meters though
[12:21:56] <anonimasu> I think geckodrives does current..
[12:22:14] <anonimasu> I just know my servos are nice when
[12:22:19] <anonimasu> when they go 4000rpm ;)
[12:22:23] <anonimasu> at the servos.
[12:22:25] <les> ha
[12:22:42] <anonimasu> but I dont know how many ipm that is..
[12:23:51] <les> Velocity mode amps were mostly used long ago because the computer hardware was slow
[12:23:58] <A-L-P-H-A> I think I can get preground plates up to 6ft.
[12:24:07] <anonimasu> les: how do you calc that
[12:24:13] <les> now most use current (torque)
[12:24:23] <les> ipm?
[12:24:31] <anonimasu> yeah or mm/min
[12:24:43] <les> well 4000 rpm
[12:24:50] <les> divide by 4
[12:25:17] <anonimasu> that's 1000rpm at the screw
[12:25:19] <les> so screw is 1000 rpm?
[12:25:25] <les> heh
[12:25:33] <les> pitch is 5/mm?
[12:25:36] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:25:47] <les> 5 meters/ min
[12:25:51] <anonimasu> :)
[12:25:58] <les> pretty fast
[12:26:14] <anonimasu> nice
[12:26:55] <les> That is about the speed I do wood at
[12:27:01] <les> depending
[12:27:08] <les> sometimes faster
[12:27:10] <anonimasu> ok I wouldnt dream about cutting anything like that
[12:27:15] <anonimasu> my servos will do 6000rpm ;)
[12:27:31] <anonimasu> but I doubt my bearings will like that
[12:27:56] <les> ballscrew end bearings?
[12:28:02] <anonimasu> bearings..
[12:28:16] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, servos at that speed? what's the torque?
[12:28:33] <A-L-P-H-A> I actually need a servo to go at high speeds... I'll use them as a spindle motor.
[12:28:45] <A-L-P-H-A> or is that a bad bad idea?
[12:28:45] <anonimasu> I'd love a 4kw servo as spindle motor :D
[12:28:52] <anonimasu> or well for the lathe..
[12:28:53] <anonimasu> ;)
[12:28:55] <anonimasu> :D
[12:29:01] <anonimasu> 6axis lathe..
[12:29:01] <anonimasu> :P
[12:29:28] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got a 3.25axis lathe... .25 cause I'm not finished the 4th.
[12:29:36] <A-L-P-H-A> rotary C axis. :)
[12:29:38] <anonimasu> lathe + mill
[12:29:51] <anonimasu> turn the part machine the flats..
[12:30:10] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, I can use a servo as a spindle right? What rpm can I pump a servo to?
[12:30:27] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, yes.
[12:30:30] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: max rpm that the specs state
[12:30:56] <anonimasu> * anonimasu bought galil servos
[12:31:03] <anonimasu> they have a max rpm at 6500 :)
[12:31:44] <anonimasu> 2.18nm
[12:31:50] <A-L-P-H-A> what's the cost?
[12:31:59] <anonimasu> about 450$
[12:32:03] <anonimasu> or wait
[12:32:09] <anonimasu> 671$
[12:32:10] <anonimasu> heh
[12:32:17] <anonimasu> 4500sek each
[12:32:39] <anonimasu> but in usa 395$
[12:32:54] <anonimasu> but thats small ones
[12:32:55] <A-L-P-H-A> with or without the electronics/encoder?
[12:33:04] <anonimasu> http://www.galilmc.com/products/motors/servomotors.html
[12:33:04] <anonimasu> with
[12:33:24] <A-L-P-H-A> there's this one, that's only 120W [don't remember how to convert] for $458USD. Does only 3000rpm.
[12:33:38] <anonimasu> N34-170-1000
[12:33:41] <les> 6500 x 2 x pi x 2.18/60...
[12:33:41] <anonimasu> that's the ones that I wanted..
[12:33:46] <anonimasu> but they were even more expensive..
[12:33:49] <les> 1.4 kW?
[12:33:53] <les> peak
[12:33:54] <anonimasu> look at the max torque..
[12:33:55] <anonimasu> :D
[12:34:03] <anonimasu> 1501 oz-inch
[12:34:17] <anonimasu> 10.60nm
[12:34:31] <anonimasu> that'd be lovely for running directly at the screws I think
[12:34:38] <les> several kW
[12:34:55] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: that sounds a bit little
[12:35:11] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.orientalmotor.co.jp/cgi-bin/WebObjects/USOMACMotor.woa/wa/f3?bk=0&ls=&sid=800&md=FBL5120AW%2DA&gr=&gmd=
[12:35:53] <les> mine are about 3.6 kW peak but I don't use that much power
[12:36:16] <anonimasu> 72*8A
[12:36:23] <anonimasu> which is what my geckos provide
[12:36:30] <anonimasu> 576w
[12:36:33] <anonimasu> peak
[12:36:50] <les> geckos can do 20 peak I thought
[12:37:21] <les> unless you have em set for 8
[12:37:27] <anonimasu> can they?
[12:37:33] <anonimasu> I thought that was 8
[12:37:36] <les> which model?
[12:37:44] <anonimasu> g350
[12:37:47] <anonimasu> err 340
[12:37:52] <les> let me check
[12:37:57] <anonimasu> 20a
[12:37:58] <anonimasu> heh
[12:38:13] <anonimasu> 1,4kw..
[12:38:44] <les> yup 20
[12:38:54] <anonimasu> about 22a is max the motors will take..
[12:38:59] <A-L-P-H-A> 2:1 ratio, geared... I've got 13000rpm... at max... do I lose my torque at that much rpm (at the motor)
[12:39:20] <anonimasu> 2.118/0.096
[12:39:26] <les> no servos can deliver peak torque at any rpm pretty much
[12:39:31] <anonimasu> nope..
[12:40:05] <les> heh
[12:40:53] <les> well...sun is up...time to hit the shop for me
[12:41:16] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[12:41:19] <A-L-P-H-A> later.
[12:41:22] <les> haha
[12:41:26] <les> later
[12:41:27] <A-L-P-H-A> breakfast time for me... I think.
[12:42:00] <A-L-P-H-A> breakfast or sleep... still haven't slept yet.
[12:45:04] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, I like that servo alot... http://www.galilmc.com/catalog/blm_n23.pdf I wonder if it'll be good enough for a _SMALL_ (1mm endmill), driving at 2:1 ration, so spindle is going at 10rpm. or gear it up to 15000rpm
[12:45:08] <A-L-P-H-A> 10Krpm
[12:46:16] <anonimasu> hm, maybe, a bit low..
[12:47:13] <anonimasu> you'd better get one with more torque
[12:48:29] <A-L-P-H-A> N34-170-1000 <-- BIG
[12:49:00] <A-L-P-H-A> also $600 bucks + a gecko
[12:49:46] <A-L-P-H-A> that's I think is the same cost as my mill... :(
[12:49:59] <A-L-P-H-A> must be cheaper solutions.
[13:28:32] <alex_joni> greetings
[14:09:19] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back later
[14:25:02] <anonimasu> alex_joni: well, 3phase drive's
[14:25:05] <anonimasu> without encoders..
[14:25:09] <anonimasu> :)
[14:25:30] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: I dont know about small endmills really but I still think you will want lots of torque
[14:25:57] <anonimasu> err a 3phase motor..
[15:15:06] <cradek> paul_c: welcome back
[15:15:18] <paul_c> Morning cradek
[15:16:35] <SteveStallings> morning paul, you were right, someone already found the wiki 8-(
[15:17:23] <paul_c> what was the url ?
[15:17:57] <cradek> SteveStallings: is that blogdns.org link what you're talking about?
[15:18:16] <SteveStallings> there are two active, including the old at ...wiki.pl, not sure which it was posted from
[15:18:33] <SteveStallings> yes the blog stuff, spam I thought, I don't read German
[15:21:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
[15:22:10] <alex_joni> an0n: hey
[15:22:21] <alex_joni> hello guys
[15:23:49] <cradek> SteveStallings: I think wikis should have that "tell me what's in this gif of five letters" to avoid changes by robots
[15:24:58] <alex_joni> cradek: or user/pass auth
[15:25:42] <cradek> alex_joni: yes, that would work, but a lot of people won't register.
[15:26:11] <cradek> alex_joni: I often edit wikis I visit (fixing spelling, grammar, or minor content problems) but I would never register to do that.
[15:26:19] <alex_joni> I agree
[15:26:32] <alex_joni> the char recognition is a very good solution
[15:26:36] <alex_joni> and widely available
[15:26:50] <cradek> at least the spammers would have to do the edits manually.
[15:28:09] <alex_joni> and real users can easily take the spam out
[15:28:25] <cradek> yes
[15:29:18] <alex_joni> nice.. there is some info in there already
[15:30:08] <cradek> what is the strange technicolor Use Mod thing?
[15:30:31] <SteveStallings> alt for edit this page
[15:30:58] <alex_joni> I think it's the logo of the wiki robin installed
[15:32:26] <cradek> http://sofortkredite.blogdns.org
[15:32:31] <cradek> oops
[15:32:41] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha
[15:32:44] <cradek> this is what I meant
[15:36:59] <alex_joni> nice.. and easy to insert
[15:39:06] <alex_joni> there is some info about setting up RT missing
[15:39:18] <alex_joni> would that belong to a emc-knowledge-base?
[15:39:29] <alex_joni> or better to RTAI's and RTlinux'es pages?
[15:42:33] <SteveStallings> it's a WiKi, just do what YOU think is helpful
[16:40:54] <alex_joni> steve: lost connection again?
[16:41:40] <stevestallings2> yes, silent death, guess IRC uses keep alive packets or something, I have had a reliable connection doing other thing the whole time
[16:42:10] <stevestallings2> thanks for your contributions to the wiki
[16:42:18] <alex_joni> don't mention it
[16:42:29] <alex_joni> I'm writing the RTLinux and RTAI installs right now
[16:42:35] <alex_joni> but between other things ;)
[17:43:58] <alex_joni> anyone still around?
[17:44:31] <paul_c> Morning alex_joni
[17:44:41] <alex_joni> hey paul_c
[17:44:45] <alex_joni> still away?
[17:44:52] <paul_c> yup
[17:44:59] <alex_joni> coo
[17:45:01] <alex_joni> how long?
[17:45:02] <paul_c> for another three weeks
[17:45:14] <alex_joni> nice ;)
[17:45:19] <alex_joni> paid vacation?
[17:45:45] <paul_c> that's a paradox isn't it ?
[17:45:53] <alex_joni> :)
[17:46:03] <alex_joni> that's something you need to aspire to...
[17:46:08] <alex_joni> at least I do ;)
[17:46:51] <alex_joni> any luck with bdi-4.12 ? (to upload it?)
[17:47:36] <cradek> paul_c: do you remember whether parport (motion) output is broken in BDI 4.08?
[17:48:23] <alex_joni> * alex_joni remembers anonimasu complaining about step/dir with custom ini-pin_definitions
[17:48:32] <paul_c> cradek: The bug kicks in after trying to home an axis
[17:48:53] <paul_c> motion still works on the parport.
[17:50:30] <les> the $10/hr spray painter gets a lunch break!
[17:52:31] <alex_joni> * alex_joni keeps the printer busy
[17:53:24] <les> Hope to get a bill of materials for automating painting together this weekend
[17:53:41] <alex_joni> liquid painting?
[17:53:47] <les> yeah
[17:53:48] <stevestallings2> this is sounding too much like real work Les
[17:54:06] <les> well I really do make $10/hr....
[17:54:10] <les> but
[17:54:32] <les> I get the 2-3k/wk company profits haha
[17:54:52] <les> can't take this painting much more really
[17:55:05] <alex_joni> airless ?
[17:55:17] <les> HVLP
[17:55:21] <alex_joni> coo
[17:55:32] <les> That $200 PLC will do this nicely
[17:55:41] <alex_joni> didn't see HVLP automated though.. (shouldn't be that hard ...)
[17:55:42] <les> stepper drive for turntable
[17:56:08] <les> I'll just use 2 hvlp spray heads
[17:56:42] <les> unskilled labor then can put the part onand take it off
[17:57:09] <les> need a robot for that too haha
[17:57:42] <alex_joni> heh.. or a slow conveyor
[17:58:04] <les> yeah but part need to turn
[17:58:20] <les> spray time will be 2 seconds
[17:58:26] <alex_joni> they can turn as they move forward
[17:58:40] <les> then 5 times that long to put the part on and take it off?
[17:58:45] <alex_joni> conveyor with turntables on it
[17:58:53] <les> yup
[17:59:00] <alex_joni> when they reach the spraying position a motor drives the turntable
[17:59:05] <les> if I had the time to do such things
[17:59:08] <alex_joni> ;)
[17:59:22] <les> Doing the plc will take a week or two i'll bet
[17:59:54] <alex_joni> calssicladder?
[18:00:00] <alex_joni> or HW plc?
[18:00:17] <les> Then the only thing left I have to do is monitor the machine while emc does it's thing
[18:00:29] <les> HW....it's just faster
[18:00:32] <alex_joni> ;)
[18:00:53] <les> one little box runs the stepper and solenoids directly
[18:01:05] <les> 24v 10A outputs
[18:01:12] <alex_joni> cool
[18:01:18] <les> and a stepper driver
[18:01:30] <les> $200
[18:01:33] <alex_joni> * alex_joni tries to remember the name of a software
[18:01:39] <les> that is the quickest way
[18:01:41] <alex_joni> it was for network statistics
[18:01:52] <alex_joni> kinda like ntop...
[18:02:24] <les> I only have statistics stuff for signal analysis
[18:03:08] <alex_joni> never mind..
[18:11:35] <les> studying the language for that PLC while lunch defrosts
[18:11:42] <les> semms pretty simple
[18:12:07] <les> has high level stuff like PID()
[18:12:24] <alex_joni> cool
[18:12:32] <alex_joni> for steppers?
[18:12:44] <les> and stepper ( count, direction)
[18:12:50] <les> servo and stepper
[18:13:03] <les> stepper goes to 20,000 pps
[18:13:28] <les> will use stepper for turntable
[18:13:51] <les> use Dout for solenoids
[18:14:12] <les> has 8 channels of analog i/o
[18:14:27] <les> don't need that
[18:15:02] <les> laser beam through the spray cloud to set pressure and mixture?
[18:15:14] <les> haha too complicated but it could do it
[18:15:37] <alex_joni> lol
[18:15:51] <les> hmm rs232/485 to computer?
[18:15:57] <les> looking for usb
[18:16:00] <alex_joni> but you need to make sure you don't spray on your laser sensor
[18:16:04] <alex_joni> usb is bad ;)
[18:16:10] <alex_joni> it's too short
[18:16:21] <alex_joni> to be usefull (max 5m)
[18:16:21] <alex_joni> then you need hubs
[18:16:39] <les> no usb
[18:16:45] <les> oh well no problem
[18:17:05] <alex_joni> rs232 is better than USB for most apps ;)
[18:17:06] <les> flash it's little eproms with 323
[18:17:13] <les> 232
[18:17:15] <les> haha
[18:17:19] <alex_joni> yup :P
[18:17:40] <alex_joni> 485 is nice too, but PC's don't speak it (only some SBC's)
[18:17:47] <les> yeah
[18:18:02] <les> uh oh stepper out is only logic level
[18:18:17] <les> will need a little gain
[18:18:31] <les> allegro chip
[18:18:55] <les> or something already put together
[18:19:39] <les> just a NEMA 17 or 23 motor will be enough for the turntable
[18:19:54] <les> ditrect drive at about 100 rpm
[18:20:06] <les> no 200
[18:20:16] <alex_joni> how many turns do you need / spraying?
[18:20:17] <les> no problem
[18:20:30] <les> right now I do 2
[18:20:43] <les> about
[18:20:58] <alex_joni> so 2 secs = 2 rotations (e.g. 60 RPM ?)
[18:21:15] <les> yeah actually you are right
[18:21:39] <alex_joni> but you can go faster... more spray layers
[18:21:44] <alex_joni> better paintjob
[18:21:47] <alex_joni> 120 RPM
[18:21:51] <les> but may need to increase time and decrease paint flow to get it feathered evenly
[18:22:13] <les> I do think faster would be better
[18:22:15] <alex_joni> what objects do you paint?
[18:22:25] <les> just the turkey calls
[18:22:39] <alex_joni> didn't get that.. :(
[18:22:53] <les> uralkyd varnish really
[18:23:11] <les> That is just my current contract to make them
[18:23:26] <les> they are selling much better than we thought
[18:23:41] <les> need to quadruple production
[18:23:48] <les> difficult
[18:24:34] <les> the cnc maxes out at 500-700 units a week
[18:25:00] <les> 3 min 20 sec per unit to machine
[18:25:25] <les> that includes tool changes
[18:26:08] <les> actually could do 1000+ a week
[18:26:32] <les> but need to include down time to service the machine, sweep the floor, etc
[18:26:55] <alex_joni> you need to automate that too ;)
[18:27:02] <les> But that can only happen if I STOP PAINTING!
[18:27:04] <alex_joni> at least the floorsweeping :D
[18:27:13] <les> swweeping the floor? haha
[18:27:21] <alex_joni> there are robots that do that
[18:27:31] <les> roomba
[18:28:19] <les> due to the coolant air the vac system isn't getting many of the chips
[18:28:48] <alex_joni> use cold gas at low pressure ;)
[18:28:54] <les> so at the end of the day there is a couple hundred pounds of chips all about
[18:28:54] <alex_joni> but that makes it more expensive
[18:29:11] <les> I have Vortec guns
[18:29:33] <les> but I need the high pressure to clear packed chips in grooves too
[18:29:51] <les> familiar with vortec?
[18:29:53] <alex_joni> well then...
[18:29:55] <alex_joni> not really
[18:30:15] <paul_c> * paul_c uploads the ISO
[18:30:18] <les> shop air comes in...
[18:30:36] <les> hot air comes out one end...cold the other
[18:31:03] <les> freezing cold
[18:31:11] <les> It is a no moving parts air powered heat pump
[18:31:57] <alex_joni> I see
[18:32:09] <les> use it a lot on the lathe and mill
[18:32:16] <les> rather than the coolant pumps
[18:33:07] <les> ahh...lunch is ready
[18:33:13] <les> later
[18:34:52] <alex_joni> bye
[18:36:53] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes home
[18:37:22] <alex_joni> paul_c: will it be on http://www.sherline.com/emc/ ?
[18:42:46] <paul_c> alex_joni: It will, but not linked from the html page
[18:42:46] <paul_c> (yet)
[18:43:18] <paul_c> wget will work once it is up.
[18:45:27] <alex_joni> ok
[18:45:57] <alex_joni> so sherline.com/emc/bdi-4.12.iso ?
[18:46:26] <alex_joni> I'll wget it tomorrow.. (do you think it'll be done by then?)
[18:47:51] <paul_c> should be done in a couple of hours
[18:48:17] <alex_joni> ok
[18:54:57] <alex_joni> is it ok if I remove 4.08 from the site when 4.12 is there?
[18:55:03] <alex_joni> I guess so...
[18:55:30] <alex_joni> * alex_joni really goes home
[18:55:31] <alex_joni> bye
[19:05:01] <A-L-P-H-A> hi people.
[19:06:07] <paul_c> Morning.
[19:07:44] <A-L-P-H-A> morning? you're in seattle still? :)
[19:08:22] <alpha1125> beanfield?
[19:08:24] <alpha1125> strange.
[19:08:36] <A-L-P-H-A> * A-L-P-H-A pokes at his linux shell.
[19:09:24] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... I wonder how I can make my linux shell show up as a vhost.
[19:57:06] <anonimasu> hey
[20:03:28] <SteveStallings> anybody know anything about IRC protocol? clients that auto-reconnect?
[20:05:12] <anonimasu> yes
[20:05:17] <anonimasu> howcome?
[20:07:34] <SteveStallings> I keep getting silent disconnects using mIRC for Windows (my workstation supports my job and some of the engineering software only runs on Windows) anyway things get quiet, I try to send, find I am not connected
[20:08:12] <anonimasu> oh.. dont know about that..
[20:08:52] <SteveStallings> I see some of the folks who are logging seem to have auto-reconnect
[20:09:10] <anonimasu> I dont think they use mirc
[20:09:18] <SteveStallings> not likely
[20:09:27] <anonimasu> I'd use BitchX or irssi
[20:09:37] <anonimasu> irssi is nicer due to it's easy window support..
[20:10:07] <anonimasu> I am at 8 networks right now :)
[20:10:14] <anonimasu> with one client..
[22:07:57] <gezr> hello ya'll
[22:08:09] <gezr> the ' key is way to close to the enter key
[22:09:11] <gezr> stevestallings2 : if your here you should try out zircon its another windows irc client,