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[00:00:45] <les> But I will admit emc and the motenc card is the right direction
[00:01:15] <les> Still when I do this BP I will have to justify it by saying:
[00:01:39] <les> " I'm not working right now...this is just hobby stuff..."
[00:02:08] <les> Know what I mean?
[00:42:32] <robin_s> hi les
[00:42:41] <robin_s> hows the timing calculations?
[00:43:07] <paul_c> time to go - Spotted ick for tea tonight.
[00:43:36] <paul_c> * paul_c tries that again....
[00:43:40] <paul_c> time to go - Spotted Dick for tea tonight.
[01:25:36] <gezr> hmm
[02:07:22] <A-L-P-H-A> hi gezr.
[02:19:12] <robin_s> hmmm spotted dick ...
[02:26:16] <jmkasunich> there are strange people here
[02:31:22] <A-L-P-H-A> :) yup.
[03:06:54] <gezr> well, I got another board into my blast cabinet :)
[03:07:18] <gezr> progress was heavely delayed today for some strange reason, I lacked a lot of motovation
[03:07:26] <gezr> maybe it will be better tommrow
[03:08:36] <gezr> only thing I think im not going to like is the fact its only a triangle bottom, instead of a pyramid shape
[03:21:29] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, how's that good? better?
[03:21:55] <gezr> hello
[03:22:07] <gezr> I would say a pyramid shape would be better
[03:22:14] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm just about to machine some stuff... well.. I need to face it... the code is already written. :)
[03:22:17] <gezr> the media would collect in one location
[03:22:22] <A-L-P-H-A> so that it just collects on the bottom right?
[03:22:34] <gezr> now its going to be at the bottom but spread across 3 feet
[03:23:04] <A-L-P-H-A> you have a 3ft blast cabinet?!?!
[03:23:08] <gezr> I think by making it myself Im saving at least a grand, the ones made of steel are 900 or so bucks for a slightly smaller unit
[03:23:25] <gezr> its 2.5 high, 3 feet wide, 2.5 feet deep
[03:23:35] <gezr> not including the section where the dust can collect
[03:23:35] <A-L-P-H-A> I've seen 2ft by 2.5ft units for for $199CDN.
[03:24:05] <A-L-P-H-A> comes with a filter, media collector, blaster, 3 ceramic nozzles.
[03:24:05] <gezr> I paid like 70 bucks for a leaky sheet metal/ with a plastic window one that I really really hate
[03:24:15] <A-L-P-H-A> even $99 when on display sale.
[03:24:26] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, probably that one. :)
[03:24:28] <gezr> at a harbor freight where I got the one im replacing
[03:24:35] <A-L-P-H-A> I wouldn't know... I never needed to bead blast anything.
[03:24:37] <gezr> im using the gloves and gun :)
[03:24:50] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, yeah, same as HF stuff... that one
[03:25:09] <A-L-P-H-A> I need ideas for lunch tomorrow. Mongolian is out, as it's too expensive appearantly.
[03:25:30] <gezr> this one is going to be pretty nice if I can get if finished, not easy with a hand saw, single direction drill that im using as a screw driver
[03:26:05] <gezr> hmm, lunch tommrow the place I work for is providing us with a bar-b-que dinner
[03:26:39] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, thinking Korean BBQ.
[03:26:47] <gezr> treat yourself to a steak of some sort even if you have to cook it under your broiler
[03:27:17] <gezr> im thinking I may do steak morrow evening, steak and taters
[03:28:28] <gezr> how is your indexer thing comming, ive seen over the past few days you mentioning some things about accuracy or position of things over a distance?
[03:29:28] <gezr> oh my gosh, I forgot to call my friend today
[03:30:49] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, your DCC work? can you accept autocad 2005 files?
[03:31:18] <gezr> you could email it to phil@conwaycorp.net
[03:31:31] <A-L-P-H-A> autocad 2005 files work for you?
[03:31:40] <gezr> im sure dcc would work but it would land at an unrecroverable destination
[03:31:46] <gezr> yeah I think I can chew on them
[03:31:49] <A-L-P-H-A> 'ight
[03:35:50] <A-L-P-H-A> should be there.
[03:36:17] <A-L-P-H-A> everything is in mm units. it's an 1.5" cube, with subcubes. :)
[03:36:45] <gezr> yeah it opened just fine :)
[03:36:50] <A-L-P-H-A> cool
[03:37:26] <gezr> so you cut that shape and then measured?
[03:38:24] <gezr> that looks sweet when renendered :)
[03:38:43] <A-L-P-H-A> it's not measured, it's calculated. I did that first.
[03:39:13] <A-L-P-H-A> it was a cube with 3 cylinders subtracted out of it, and then progressively scaled down by 0.68.
[03:39:21] <A-L-P-H-A> the scalling was done with a macro I wrote...
[03:39:39] <gezr> thats really neat
[03:39:57] <A-L-P-H-A> was easier to do trial and error with scaling than with real metal... and the macro made things work in 1sec... version doing it by hand.
[03:40:25] <gezr> you I guess have autocad2005?
[03:40:43] <A-L-P-H-A> you would be guessing correctly.
[03:41:17] <gezr> turbocad 10.5 opened it up with no problems :)
[03:41:28] <A-L-P-H-A> oh good.
[03:48:54] <gezr> too cool, im going to have to spend some time learning how to draft this year as well :)
[03:53:50] <A-L-P-H-A> well, I can help with that aspect :)
[03:54:04] <gezr> hehe, I colorized each individual copy a different color :)
[03:54:06] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm gonna plug my laptop into the shop room, and VNC (www.realvnc.com) to my desktop to see and chat. :)
[03:54:31] <gezr> im going to be going to bed in a moment
[03:54:43] <gezr> this week has been full of lots of hard work, at work and home
[05:11:43] <A-L-P-H-A> doh! 2mm off on the part... copied down the number wrong. :(
[05:19:55] <A-L-P-H-A> there goes $2-4 worth of aluminium. :/ heh... at least it wasn't an bunch of material wasted... checking if my code will be better now...
[07:13:36] <alex_joni> hello.. anybody around?
[07:19:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni could need some help
[07:33:11] <A-L-P-H-A> hi
[07:33:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I don't know how much help I'll be though.
[07:33:35] <alex_joni> I need you to check a ping
[07:33:41] <A-L-P-H-A> 'ight
[07:33:43] <A-L-P-H-A> I can do that.
[07:33:46] <alex_joni> on 66.227.8.108
[07:33:52] <alex_joni> or robcon.ro
[07:33:56] <alex_joni> if it resolves
[07:33:58] <alex_joni> :
[07:33:59] <alex_joni> :(
[07:34:47] <A-L-P-H-A> nope neither
[07:34:59] <alex_joni> bull
[07:37:19] <A-L-P-H-A> could just be firewalled.
[07:37:25] <A-L-P-H-A> so I can't ping them.
[07:37:46] <A-L-P-H-A> sooo many burrs on my piece... it's gonna take hours to clean them out.
[07:37:46] <A-L-P-H-A> :(
[07:37:57] <alex_joni> http doesn't work either
[07:38:00] <A-L-P-H-A> last pass though... machining 6 sides of a cube takes freak'n forever
[07:38:03] <alex_joni> neither does DNS lookup
[07:38:10] <alex_joni> that shouldn't be firewalled ;)
[07:38:13] <A-L-P-H-A> then it probably doesn't exist.
[07:39:19] <alex_joni> it's down
[07:39:22] <alex_joni> or a route is down
[08:39:32] <alex_joni> still around alpha?
[08:54:03] <A-L-P-H-A> kinda
[08:54:07] <A-L-P-H-A> cleaning/polishing a part
[08:59:05] <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni...?
[08:59:27] <A-L-P-H-A> I'll be back... I'm gonna wash my hands, and change my bandage...
[08:59:31] <alex_joni> should work now... could you try again?
[08:59:40] <alex_joni> robcon.ro or 66.227.8.108
[09:06:12] <A-L-P-H-A> yup
[09:06:24] <anonimasu> 6 sides of a cube?
[09:08:48] <alex_joni> anon: usually yes
[09:08:59] <alex_joni> and 8 corners
[09:09:00] <alex_joni> :D
[09:09:26] <anonimasu> ah. yeah didnt think
[09:09:26] <anonimasu> :)
[09:09:42] <alex_joni> :P
[09:09:47] <alex_joni> * alex_joni had a great idea...
[09:09:50] <anonimasu> I need to machine a pneumatic vise.. soon..
[09:09:51] <alex_joni> even ideea
[09:09:57] <anonimasu> I got a nice showoff thingie for my desk :)
[09:10:01] <anonimasu> in my head..
[09:10:04] <alex_joni> I wanna build a cutting machine
[09:10:12] <alex_joni> but the torch will be suspended by wired
[09:10:15] <alex_joni> controlled by motors
[09:10:38] <anonimasu> hmm ok
[09:10:50] <anonimasu> http://www.dakeng.com/gallery.html
[09:10:52] <alex_joni> kinda like the NIST robocrane
[09:10:55] <anonimasu> I love that cube at top :)
[09:11:23] <alex_joni> yup...
[09:11:29] <alex_joni> I've seen chinese stuff
[09:11:38] <alex_joni> but those were with sferes, not cubes
[09:11:46] <alex_joni> and the ones inside could move...
[09:11:49] <anonimasu> :)
[09:12:11] <alex_joni> I've seen ones with 7 moving inside
[09:12:20] <alex_joni> not big though (around 10 cm outer diameter)
[09:12:51] <anonimasu> :)
[09:14:07] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, that's what I just made... except mine's 1.5" cube, with 5 cubes in total [4 inside 1 cube, making 5]
[09:14:17] <anonimasu> :)
[09:14:22] <anonimasu> I'll cad one later :)
[09:14:44] <anonimasu> mine will be pretty large, becasue I only have 3x3cm alu stock
[09:14:53] <anonimasu> but still it's nice for having on the desk
[09:15:53] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got enough titanium to make one exactly as he has.
[09:16:21] <anonimasu> I hate you! :D
[09:16:43] <anonimasu> *jealous*
[09:16:59] <A-L-P-H-A> nah, don't be a hater... you'll get to where I am... I started off with NOTHING... but drills, radial arm saw, and and hand tools.
[09:17:15] <anonimasu> oh, I have a cnc mill...
[09:17:18] <anonimasu> but I cant get titanium.
[09:17:19] <A-L-P-H-A> I've actually got about 5ft worth of TI.
[09:17:36] <anonimasu> there's hardly anyone that uses it in this part of the country..
[09:17:37] <A-L-P-H-A> I have a CNC mill... except the backlash is foxered on the y axis.
[09:17:55] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, where are you again? Sweden?
[09:17:57] <anonimasu> I dont know what's up with my ballscrews I have lots of bachslash now..
[09:18:00] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:18:30] <anonimasu> or well > 0.015
[09:18:42] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got about that for my Y.
[09:18:46] <anonimasu> but I dont know why.. I think my ballnuts have gotten worn..
[09:18:47] <A-L-P-H-A> 0.002" for my X.
[09:18:53] <anonimasu> 0.015mm
[09:18:54] <anonimasu> ;)
[09:19:05] <A-L-P-H-A> I hate you! :D
[09:19:07] <A-L-P-H-A> hehee
[09:19:19] <anonimasu> expensive skf ballscrews..
[09:19:27] <A-L-P-H-A> .0006" that's NOTHING.
[09:19:45] <anonimasu> the other axis has about 0.023
[09:19:50] <A-L-P-H-A> I will remove all of my backlash, after I fix the Yaxis a bit... and spend another $40CDN.
[09:20:10] <anonimasu> and the Z is spring loaded so it dosent have a problem with backslash
[09:20:42] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm preloading the axes soon... with a die spring, or a disc spring [I don
[09:20:45] <A-L-P-H-A> 't know which yet]
[09:20:52] <anonimasu> :)
[09:21:00] <A-L-P-H-A> <ball nut> <spring> <ball nut>
[09:21:14] <anonimasu> I need alu to make my ballscrews mounted as they should be
[09:21:20] <A-L-P-H-A> and that will get rid of all my backlash I think/hope. Just need to calculate how much preload I need first.
[09:21:25] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:21:49] <A-L-P-H-A> I should really be changing this bandage more than once a day. :/
[09:21:55] <anonimasu> :(
[09:25:34] <A-L-P-H-A> actually I just measured a American dime... and compared it to the little cube. :) it's less than 0.7" So that means if I had 0.75" Ti stock I could make that easily. but I only got 1", 1.5" ti stock. hmm.
[09:26:12] <A-L-P-H-A> anonimasu, can you open autocad 2005 files?
[09:26:20] <anonimasu> hm, probably
[09:26:21] <anonimasu> I am unsure..
[09:26:45] <A-L-P-H-A> care to accept a dcc file?
[09:28:19] <anonimasu> yes
[09:28:20] <anonimasu> :)
[09:28:25] <anonimasu> I think solidworks will open it..
[09:29:18] <A-L-P-H-A> _should_
[09:31:20] <anonimasu> thanks :)
[09:31:29] <A-L-P-H-A> drew that earlier today.
[09:34:09] <anonimasu> I cant access the ftp at home now
[09:34:13] <anonimasu> I'll check it later :)
[09:34:54] <A-L-P-H-A> no hurry... it's just the cube cad drawing of the cube I made.
[09:38:02] <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder if I know anyone with a media blaster... to just uniform the finish of this little guy.
[09:38:23] <A-L-P-H-A> or maybe I'll just make a tumbler, and throw some sand and it into it.
[09:41:12] <anonimasu> :)
[09:41:24] <anonimasu> anodize it ;)
[09:43:21] <A-L-P-H-A> anadizing Ti is much easier than anodizing aluminium.
[09:43:36] <A-L-P-H-A> Ti is just a current in an eletrolytic solution.
[09:43:45] <anonimasu> but wellneat
[09:43:47] <anonimasu> neat
[09:44:24] <A-L-P-H-A> Al, requires you to acid dip, dye, coat, lots of stepps... I researched it, and gave up on that idea... cause well... it's just tooo much work.
[09:44:31] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:44:38] <anonimasu> it's easier to send your parts in
[09:44:46] <A-L-P-H-A> I have a place that does a real black hard finish for alumium... they do stuff under the table.
[09:44:47] <anonimasu> it's about 5$ per part.. over here
[09:44:53] <anonimasu> nice
[09:44:54] <A-L-P-H-A> $50, for two shopping bag full or something.
[09:44:58] <anonimasu> hard anodizing
[09:44:59] <A-L-P-H-A> of parts.
[09:45:09] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, hard anodizing... not decorative.
[09:45:14] <anonimasu> I like that..
[09:45:15] <A-L-P-H-A> though black anodizing looks sick to me.
[09:45:23] <A-L-P-H-A> :) I love it.
[09:45:30] <anonimasu> it's hard as hell :)
[09:45:54] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is a freak for function
[09:46:28] <A-L-P-H-A> I've got some pipes hard anodized... they're alumium 3/8" pipes... about a ft long each... The previous owner used to make camera parts/assessories for Panavision... but he was left with lots of stock still kicking around.
[09:46:48] <A-L-P-H-A> so like 10% of it anodized... and I've got like no clue what to do with it.
[09:47:09] <A-L-P-H-A> they're threaded too... internal thread... but it's just odd as I've got no practical use for them.
[09:47:37] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... it's almost 5am... do I sleep, or do I just go make a coffee and then have lunch with the girl.
[09:47:48] <A-L-P-H-A> i.e. stay up...
[09:47:50] <A-L-P-H-A> or just cancel on her.
[09:48:11] <anonimasu> hm, have a nice cup of coffe..
[09:48:17] <anonimasu> slack for a bit and then go out with the girl ;)
[09:48:51] <A-L-P-H-A> damn cute only took like 40 minutes to make. BUT took me over and hour extra to deburr and polish.
[09:48:52] <anonimasu> heh, panavision.. crap cameras*grins*
[09:49:09] <anonimasu> just kidding
[09:49:42] <A-L-P-H-A> They don't make the cameras... they buy them, modify them, rent them out to film crews.
[09:50:33] <A-L-P-H-A> same with lots of the other stuff... lights, dollys, grips, stabilizer systems, generators
[09:50:49] <anonimasu> :)
[09:50:53] <A-L-P-H-A> the generators are super super quiet... on a flat bed truck, to power the lights and cameras on remote locations.
[09:51:20] <A-L-P-H-A> it's actually really damn quiet... It's like something you could have in the backyard, and you couldn't hear in the house.
[09:51:29] <anonimasu> I am looking for a paper on the diff between 6060 and 6061
[09:52:44] <A-L-P-H-A> https://bomdetail.services.ibm.com/matcodes/matcodes.nsf/pages/mat01.htm
[09:53:39] <A-L-P-H-A> I can't find 6060
[09:53:59] <A-L-P-H-A> nm 6060 is a european alloy.
[09:54:03] <anonimasu> strange..
[09:54:04] <A-L-P-H-A> 6061 is north american
[09:54:07] <anonimasu> let me double check..
[09:54:47] <anonimasu> AW-6060
[09:54:51] <anonimasu> it is
[09:55:05] <A-L-P-H-A> http://aaec.avidsoft.com.hk/bin/search.exe/PropertiesResults.htm
[09:55:25] <A-L-P-H-A> that will tell you the composition of many alloys
[09:55:30] <anonimasu> cant access it..
[09:55:52] <anonimasu> hm, I am most interested in how it'll machine
[09:56:14] <A-L-P-H-A> like butter?
[09:56:27] <A-L-P-H-A> got a copy of machinaries handbook?
[09:56:32] <anonimasu> yeah but not here..
[09:56:49] <anonimasu> http://www.worcester-aluminium.com/html/char.htm
[09:57:01] <anonimasu> 6060 Special purpose structural alloy. Good surface finish and corrosion resistance. Good formability in T4 temper. Good weldability. Responds well to surface finishing, especially anodising.
[09:58:13] <anonimasu> :)
[10:00:12] <alex_joni> man.. this is crazy ;)
[10:00:24] <alex_joni> I just downloaded some ancient Java GUI from NIST
[10:00:28] <alex_joni> and it still works ;)
[10:00:36] <alex_joni> connected to a doze-emcserver
[10:01:12] <anonimasu> hehe
[10:01:12] <anonimasu> nice
[10:01:15] <A-L-P-H-A> what's doze-emcserver?
[10:01:25] <anonimasu> I need to go eat
[10:01:26] <anonimasu> lunch..
[10:01:29] <anonimasu> laters everyone
[10:01:31] <A-L-P-H-A> I need to go sleep.
[10:01:48] <alex_joni> that's a windows version of emcsvr
[10:51:31] <anonimasu> iab
[10:52:21] <alex_joni> iag
[10:52:23] <alex_joni> :D
[10:52:27] <alex_joni> I am gone...
[10:52:30] <alex_joni> bbl
[11:06:14] <anonimasu> bbl..
[12:53:15] <alex_joni> ib
[12:53:18] <alex_joni> iab
[13:17:51] <les> anyone home?
[13:19:55] <alex_joni> hey les
[13:20:52] <alex_joni> * alex_joni had a revelation last night ;)
[13:21:09] <alex_joni> I wanna build an cutting-machine
[13:45:42] <les> hi...was taking a shower
[13:45:56] <les> also getting ready for big ice storm
[13:46:08] <les> expect no power for days
[13:46:47] <alex_joni> ouchy
[13:46:53] <alex_joni> no generator around?
[13:51:17] <les> I am thinking of running out and getting one
[13:52:12] <les> well out to the shop...employees coming in
[13:52:25] <les> last work day for a while i'll bet
[13:52:28] <alex_joni> cool
[13:52:35] <les> later
[13:52:41] <alex_joni> I wanna build a robocrane.. ;)
[13:56:57] <alex_joni> anyways... going to the mountains this weekend
[13:57:00] <alex_joni> later guys
[15:16:24] <paul_c> * paul_c spies rayh lurking...
[15:16:37] <rayh> Mornin Paul
[15:17:13] <paul_c> how's the snow up there ?
[15:17:50] <rayh> Got some. Cold today. -10f
[15:19:12] <rayh> If you want me to look over the docs before they go to press, send em.
[15:20:37] <paul_c> I was just going to update the install section and advise a couple of small changes elsewhere
[15:20:57] <rayh> You don't need me for that.
[15:22:02] <paul_c> 'spose I should also do a paragraph on apt
[15:22:29] <SteveStallings> a pointer to docs at Debian.org should suffice
[15:23:52] <SteveStallings> question about versions - BDI 4.x, Debain Sarge (3.1), Kernel 2.6.10 - are these what you plan, or do I have versions mixed
[15:24:58] <paul_c> Debian Sarge, (currently) 2.6.9 kernel, and rtai-3.10
[15:25:54] <SteveStallings> is the "soft" realtime supported in 2.6.9 ?
[15:27:59] <paul_c> 2.6.9 has low latency options, whether that is sufficient for soft realtime, I wouldn't like to say for sure.
[15:29:26] <paul_c> from what I've seen of test results, 2.6 "soft" realtime latency is no better than a 2.4 kernel when under load.
[15:31:30] <SteveStallings> is the low latency option what people keep calling "realtime" support in the kernel?
[15:32:26] <paul_c> Some call it that.
[15:32:57] <paul_c> but realtime means different things to different people.
[15:42:46] <SteveStallings> for me realtime is "hard" realtime, but I still wanted to understand what it was that people keep claiming that the 2.6 kernel supplies natively
[15:56:39] <les> wish I had a good laptop
[15:56:58] <les> expect several days of power outage due to ice storm
[15:57:09] <rayh> les: I'll take one also.
[15:57:35] <les> ice just wipes things out down south here
[15:58:02] <les> we might get all snow here in the mountains
[15:58:26] <les> So I would marely be snowed in but perhaps with power
[15:58:35] <les> no salt
[15:58:42] <les> no snowplows
[15:59:00] <les> 7%+ grades common on the roads
[16:00:16] <rayh> Driven on a few of those over the years.
[16:00:23] <SteveStallings> quick, buy a Hummer
[16:00:31] <les> heh
[16:00:34] <rayh> With studded tires.
[16:00:52] <rayh> Cause 4wd only helps with acceleration.
[16:00:59] <SteveStallings> and the optional 115 VAC inverter outlet
[16:01:12] <les> I was considering hitting the walmart and grabbing a generator
[16:01:18] <les> prob sold out
[16:01:37] <les> hmmm car batteries in the UPS?
[16:01:50] <les> wonder how long that would last
[16:02:25] <les> 100 ampere hours...12v
[16:02:35] <SteveStallings> keep in mind that most UPS units will not start without power on the input to sync with
[16:02:44] <les> 5 hrs per charge?
[16:02:53] <les> hmm
[16:03:30] <les> so after the first battery that would be it?
[16:03:44] <les> oh well
[16:03:48] <SteveStallings> unless you could have two and chain them on startup
[16:04:24] <SteveStallings> the inverters made for RV's and boats do not have this issue
[16:04:47] <les> was thinking hot swap...but that wouldn't work too well
[16:05:17] <les> wonder what a 250w rv inverter costs
[16:05:22] <les> checking now
[16:07:17] <les> yikes too expensive
[16:07:41] <SteveStallings> luxury market item
[16:07:53] <les> I guess
[16:08:26] <les> oh well
[16:09:14] <les> yuck
[16:09:18] <les> http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/GAZ010.php
[16:11:10] <SteveStallings> used to live in NC, remember southern ice storms well.....
[16:11:26] <les> oh on another note I see the machinery rebuilder I was talking to here made a post to the list
[16:11:41] <les> He took the plunge and bought a motenc card
[16:12:08] <les> wants to use emc for commercial retrofit
[16:12:51] <les> Since I am planning that too for an extra mill we might work together
[16:13:19] <les> As far as I know the motenc has yet to be installed on a real machine
[16:14:19] <les> I sure don't want to buy any more stg cards
[16:15:19] <SteveStallings> shame they never did a PCI version
[16:19:16] <les> yeah I don't know what happened
[16:20:34] <les> Well...off to town to get supplies
[16:20:36] <les> later
[17:15:45] <robin_sz> meeoup!
[17:15:51] <robin_sz> * robin_sz waves ...
[17:17:26] <robin_sz> anyone understand this tcp/ip networking stuff?
[17:17:44] <cradek> I do
[17:17:49] <robin_sz> good :)
[17:18:12] <robin_sz> so ... I have a bit of a confusion
[17:19:00] <robin_sz> I have a network, several boxes on the 192.168.1.x subnet
[17:19:42] <robin_sz> and a laptop connected by wireless, and a card in one of the boxes on the 192.168.1.x subnet
[17:20:08] <robin_sz> everything works just fine .. except ....
[17:20:20] <robin_sz> the bridge box to the ouside world
[17:20:41] <robin_sz> from the 192.168.1.x boxes I can see it fine
[17:20:50] <robin_sz> as 192.168.1.30
[17:21:06] <robin_sz> but its invisible from the 192.168.2.10 laptop ...
[17:21:21] <cradek> where are the wireless cards?
[17:22:36] <robin_sz> on the 192.168.1.1 box, and the laptop is on 192.168.2.10
[17:23:22] <cradek> so what's the IP of the wireless interface on the box?
[17:23:31] <robin_sz> if I ping the 192.168.1.30 box from 192.168.2.10 and run tcpdump ..
[17:23:47] <robin_sz> the if on the box is 192.168.2.1
[17:24:01] <robin_sz> 18:12:48.022427 IP gandalf.redpoint.org.uk > 192.168.1.30: icmp 64: echo request seq 0
[17:24:01] <robin_sz> 18:12:48.022652 arp who-has gandalf.redpoint.org.uk tell 192.168.1.30
[17:24:12] <cradek> so what's invisible from the laptop?
[17:24:38] <robin_sz> 192.168.1.30.
[17:24:44] <robin_sz> the bridge box
[17:25:07] <cradek> does the bridge box have a route 192.168.2.x -> 192.168.1.1?
[17:25:21] <cradek> if not, the packets can't get back to the wireless subnet
[17:25:34] <robin_sz> hmmm
[17:26:05] <cradek> it says to itself "where is 192.168.2.10?" and answers "dunno, so I'll use my default route"
[17:26:56] <robin_sz> isnt that what the arp who-has is supposed to figure out?
[17:27:32] <robin_sz> the routing table on .30 is:
[17:27:34] <robin_sz> Kernel IP routing table
[17:27:34] <robin_sz> Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface
[17:27:34] <robin_sz> 192.168.0.0 * 255.255.0.0 U 0 0 0 br1
[17:27:34] <robin_sz> default 192.168.1.138 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 br1
[17:27:50] <cradek> what's 1.138?
[17:28:32] <robin_sz> the router thing under the stairs, thats plugged into eth1, the network into eth0 and then its configured as an arp-transparent bridge
[17:29:06] <robin_sz> ive assigned the .30 address to tht bridge
[17:29:39] <robin_sz> hmm, I wonder if the box with the wireless card in it is seeing that arp who-has
[17:32:03] <robin_sz> yeah, seems so, but its not replying
[17:32:35] <robin_sz> should it?
[17:32:46] <robin_sz> * robin_sz doesnt really understand the arp stuff
[17:33:08] <cradek> I don't either
[17:33:51] <robin_sz> might be a firewally thing
[17:34:36] <robin_sz> i know I added tules to do stuff to icmp packets, never really thought about arp stuff, basically because i dont know what it does :)
[17:35:00] <cradek> but on .30 if you `route add -net 192.168.2.0/24 gw 192.168.1.1' I bet it will all work
[17:35:44] <robin_sz> blimey
[17:35:48] <robin_sz> it did too!
[17:36:00] <cradek> told ya so
[17:36:08] <cradek> now let's both go on not understanding arp
[17:36:11] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hands cradek a beer
[17:36:14] <robin_sz> :)
[17:37:11] <robin_sz> the weird thing is ... say, 192.168.1.25, that doesnt have that route added, but thats works fine
[17:37:39] <robin_sz> as do allthe other boxes on 192.168.1.x
[17:38:20] <robin_sz> whatever, I'll add that to the briding script and stop worrying
[17:38:24] <robin_sz> thanks!! :)
[17:38:46] <cradek> you're welcome, but I don't understand why the others work either.
[17:39:32] <robin_sz> shrug, they are all on the same net, with real ips assigned to real interfaces
[17:39:47] <robin_sz> .30 is different in that the ip is assigned to a bridge
[17:39:54] <robin_sz> but apart from that ?
[17:40:47] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[17:41:23] <cradek> lunchtime for me
[17:41:30] <cradek> I'll want that beer about 6pm
[17:41:50] <robin_sz> I'll send it ups.
[17:42:14] <cradek> great idea
[17:43:21] <robin_sz> bridges are weird ... they dont show up in traceroutes ...
[17:43:45] <robin_sz> yet you can fiddle with packets as they pass through ..
[17:52:18] <robin_sz> right ... that sorted out, I now get to try and implement stp :)
[17:52:38] <robin_sz> * robin_sz truly fears stp, for he understands that even less than arp!
[18:05:40] <A-L-P-H-A> I have a bracket that is slipping... as it's only held down by one bolt? Any ideas as to how I should mount the bracket down? I've got two ideas, one hard to implement, and another easy. Easy first. 1" piece of 1.5" x 1.5" x 3/8" Angle Iron [if it exists], with slots milled out for bolts. bolt down the bracket.
[18:06:03] <robin_sz> yes ...
[18:06:11] <robin_sz> theres another way ...
[18:06:13] <A-L-P-H-A> 2.) drill a hole in both the bracket and my table with a dowel
[18:06:17] <robin_sz> do you have a welder?
[18:06:27] <A-L-P-H-A> it's aluminium + cast iron.
[18:06:35] <A-L-P-H-A> it's aluminium [bracket] + cast iron [base]
[18:06:46] <robin_sz> t slotted base?
[18:06:53] <robin_sz> T slotted base?
[18:07:13] <A-L-P-H-A> dove tailed base.
[18:08:07] <robin_sz> you have dove-tail grooves in the table on which this mount sits?
[18:08:49] <A-L-P-H-A> http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Mill_Related/2003-08-16_Mill_Converstion/ <-- milling base. The bracket mounts to the part on top.
[18:09:21] <A-L-P-H-A> that's a view from the front. The bracket is for the Y-axis of the table.
[18:10:45] <robin_sz> whatever, 1 bolt isnt going to do it
[18:10:55] <robin_sz> 4 bolts in sslots maybe
[18:13:24] <A-L-P-H-A> so how do you recommend doing this?
[18:19:20] <robin_sz> i cant see the base from here, or the brackt
[18:20:01] <robin_sz> os this the motor mount bracket?
[18:20:08] <robin_sz> leadscrew mount bracket?
[18:25:16] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ponders a motenc-100 card.
[18:25:48] <robin_sz> seems a LOT of io, but the price isnt that bad
[18:44:13] <les> hi robin
[18:44:24] <les> will be playing with one very soon
[18:44:56] <les> yes 100 dio
[18:46:06] <robin_sz> is this the 'new' vital card?
[18:46:18] <robin_sz> or is there another top-secret one in production as well?
[18:46:36] <robin_sz> 8 axes and all that io, it more than I need
[18:47:55] <robin_sz> it is fairly awesome though
[18:50:20] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, sorry was in the shower. It's the ballscrew bracket.
[18:50:26] <A-L-P-H-A> ballnet bracket.
[18:50:31] <A-L-P-H-A> where the ball nut mounts too.
[18:50:56] <A-L-P-H-A> http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Mill_Related/2003-08-16_Mill_Converstion/DCP_0088.JPG the metal peice in the top middle is the bracket.
[18:54:09] <robin_sz> * robin_sz looks
[18:54:14] <les> robin: yes the Vital motenc-100
[18:54:35] <robin_sz> yes this is the new one?
[18:54:48] <robin_sz> or yes there is another on the way?
[18:55:14] <les> yes this is the new one
[18:55:18] <robin_sz> right
[18:55:26] <les> no other on the way that I know of
[18:55:30] <robin_sz> 'k
[18:55:43] <robin_sz> more than enough for a 2 axis plasma
[18:56:02] <les> It has not been tested on a real machine yet to my knowledge
[18:56:08] <robin_sz> handy
[18:56:16] <robin_sz> I'll leave that honour to someone else
[18:56:26] <les> perhaps me
[18:56:46] <robin_sz> hows segmot?
[18:56:48] <les> looking at alpha's bracket picture...
[18:57:05] <les> segmot is waiting for me to get free time!
[18:57:09] <robin_sz> ahh
[18:57:52] <A-L-P-H-A> any ideas?
[18:57:52] <cradek> well I use it on my stepper machine - not sure if that counts as real or not
[18:57:53] <les> Will get some very soon due to ice storm
[18:58:14] <les> alpha: looking
[18:58:17] <robin_sz> * robin_sz ponders how you use a servo card on a stepper machine
[18:58:22] <cradek> I was cutting nice blended arcs and lines a couple days ago
[18:58:36] <cradek> robin_sz: it's steppersegmod or something like that
[18:59:02] <les> chris: great
[18:59:07] <les> servo right?
[18:59:20] <robin_sz> oh you use segmot, not the vital card??
[18:59:23] <cradek> no, it's stepper
[18:59:31] <cradek> me?
[18:59:37] <robin_sz> yes, you
[18:59:50] <cradek> I use steppersegmod, parallel port, chopper drives, steppers
[18:59:53] <les> alpha: not sure what I am seeing. let me read back a ways
[18:59:54] <robin_sz> right
[19:00:24] <robin_sz> we were talking about who would have the honour if using the motenc-100 card on a real machine
[19:00:41] <robin_sz> and then asked about segmot
[19:00:45] <cradek> oh, I totally misunderstood then
[19:00:49] <robin_sz> ;))
[19:01:01] <robin_sz> but you have segmot working fine with steppers?
[19:01:03] <cradek> I thought you were talking about testing segmentqueue on a real machine
[19:01:09] <robin_sz> thats .. encouraging
[19:01:13] <cradek> yes, I only use the new planner now
[19:01:16] <robin_sz> I might give that a go
[19:01:26] <cradek> have been ever since I checked in the last fixes a month (?) ago
[19:01:52] <cradek> the only strange thing I've seen is it sometimes doesn't blend the first move in the program because the queue hasn't filled enough yet
[19:02:03] <cradek> I would like to see that fixed but I haven't dug into it at all.
[19:02:11] <robin_sz> I sort of abandoned my emc afforts ages ago, but im tinking of having another play, having frightened myself with real systems again
[19:02:24] <cradek> otherwise, it works great
[19:02:28] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[19:03:21] <cradek> this weekend I'm going to try cranking my spindle to about 20krpm
[19:03:27] <robin_sz> coo
[19:03:28] <cradek> for cutting pcbs faster
[19:03:37] <robin_sz> oh, tiny spindle
[19:03:45] <cradek> yep, tiny tools
[19:03:53] <robin_sz> seen those aor spindles?
[19:03:54] <cradek> the spindle handles 5/16" tools or so
[19:03:56] <robin_sz> air
[19:04:01] <cradek> heard of it, never seen one
[19:04:04] <robin_sz> 160k rpm
[19:04:10] <cradek> holy cow
[19:04:15] <robin_sz> for engraving mainly
[19:04:18] <cradek> yeah
[19:04:28] <cradek> my machine can only move 25ipm so 20krpm will let me cut at full speed.
[19:05:03] <cradek> I have the new motor mount in place already, I'm going to try to turn some new pullies from Al round bar
[19:05:23] <cradek> I'm worried about getting them perfectly balanced
[19:05:39] <cradek> 2.5" dia at 20krpm makes the balance pretty critical
[19:06:01] <cradek> actually I guess the big one on the motor won't be turning that fast
[19:06:49] <les> I swing 1.5" at 21000
[19:06:58] <les> no problem
[19:07:19] <cradek> I'm worried that I have to reverse the pully in the lathe chuck to finish it, losing the center
[19:07:41] <les> alpha: all I can say is that I through bolt and dowel ballscrew bearings
[19:07:58] <cradek> I guess I'll do the best I can and see how badly it shakes
[19:08:41] <les> machine the pulley on a mandrel
[19:09:05] <cradek> the hole in the center will be very small
[19:09:05] <paul_c> cradek: Machine the bore and then use a spigot to hold it when you have to machine the reverse side.
[19:09:17] <les> how small?
[19:09:24] <cradek> umm
[19:09:27] <A-L-P-H-A> http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Mill_Related/Mill%20Brackets/bracket%20profile.png
[19:09:46] <cradek> maybe 1/4"
[19:09:55] <cradek> 5-6mm
[19:10:03] <A-L-P-H-A> les, so just use the mill, to drill it's own dowel hole, and press a pin through, into the bracket?
[19:10:23] <cradek> not even sure if I can get a boring tool in there
[19:10:47] <robin_sz> reamer
[19:11:01] <cradek> yeah, if I have the right size
[19:11:22] <les> Alpha: yes pretty much
[19:11:44] <les> drill undersize and ream after it's mounted
[19:11:47] <A-L-P-H-A> 1/4" think would do
[19:12:07] <les> cradeck: I bore 1/8 a good bit
[19:12:20] <les> up to about 0.5" deep
[19:12:44] <cradek> les: do you grind that tool yourself?
[19:12:45] <les> alpha: yes that is exactly what I use
[19:12:57] <les> cradeck: yup
[19:13:17] <cradek> les: I'll keep that in mind
[19:13:32] <les> it's a pain but works
[19:13:40] <A-L-P-H-A> les, you don't think something like JB weld would do the trick?
[19:13:44] <cradek> les: I'm so spoiled by my carbide insert tools I hate to touch the grinder
[19:14:03] <les> if you bore a tiny bit under and ream it usually comes out centered to .0005 or so
[19:14:32] <cradek> I wonder if this is the kind of thing I should pay someone to make
[19:14:40] <cradek> it will really be a struggle on my small lathe
[19:14:43] <les> because it is hard to hold diameter with small hole boring
[19:15:04] <les> well small part...small lathe...no problem
[19:15:22] <cradek> 2.5" is not a small part for this machine!
[19:15:32] <les> sherline?
[19:15:32] <cradek> no way will it swing over the slide
[19:15:36] <cradek> yes
[19:15:45] <les> ok
[19:15:55] <cradek> so I'll have to stick the tool off the end of the table to do the outside
[19:16:23] <les> I could make you one
[19:16:31] <les> no charge
[19:16:43] <cradek> les: I really appreciate that - but let me see if I can do it first.
[19:16:45] <A-L-P-H-A> cradek, what are you trying to make?
[19:16:52] <les> k
[19:16:58] <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: just a set of pullies for my spindle
[19:17:06] <A-L-P-H-A> oh, what's the dia?
[19:17:19] <cradek> about 2.5" and 1.25"
[19:17:20] <A-L-P-H-A> biggest OD, and the bore?
[19:17:25] <cradek> they will have steps
[19:17:58] <cradek> 2.5" - 1/4" and something like 1.5" - 3/4"
[19:18:06] <cradek> going from memory here
[19:18:19] <A-L-P-H-A> the bore is 3/4"
[19:18:30] <cradek> on the spindle yes, but on the motor it's smaller
[19:18:49] <cradek> I think 1/4
[19:18:50] <A-L-P-H-A> ahh. so two motors... two pulleys. Where abouts are you?
[19:19:00] <cradek> no, one on the motor, one on the spindle
[19:19:13] <cradek> I'm in NE USA
[19:19:14] <A-L-P-H-A> err. one motor, one spindle. :)
[19:19:19] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm in Toronto Canada.
[19:19:37] <cradek> http://maxnc.com/page3.html
[19:19:50] <cradek> see this setup? my motor, motor mount, etc are different
[19:19:56] <cradek> but the positioning is the same
[19:20:16] <A-L-P-H-A> ahh yeah, I see it.
[19:20:17] <cradek> I need to put a big pulley on the motor and a small one on the spindle
[19:20:30] <A-L-P-H-A> get higher speeds I see.
[19:21:01] <cradek> yeah I replaced the spindle motor with a DC speed-controlled one that has a max RPM of ~ 6000
[19:21:12] <cradek> but it's powerful, so I can gear it way up
[19:21:54] <cradek> their original motor, motor mount, speed control, etc are crap, so I've replaced it all, and also the stepper drivers
[19:22:18] <les> what are the spindle bearings?
[19:22:25] <cradek> good question
[19:22:39] <cradek> they ran them at ~ 10k with the factory motor
[19:22:54] <les> ok
[19:23:10] <cradek> do you think they're ok? I don't know anything about bearings but I was worried about that too.
[19:23:37] <les> most bearings under about 15 mm grease lubed are ok for 20k
[19:23:53] <cradek> I know they're sealed but I don't know what the lube is
[19:24:19] <les> Of course bearing speed ratings can be violated with light loads
[19:24:30] <cradek> oh this will be extremely light
[19:24:38] <les> router bearings have a speed rating of about 12k
[19:24:48] <cradek> cutting 5mil deep and 10mil across, or drilling very small holes
[19:24:49] <les> and run at 20+
[19:25:00] <les> but like about 500 hrs max
[19:25:33] <cradek> well my plan was 1) "see if it explodes" 2) "see if it gets hot"
[19:25:38] <les> I know what would be great for pwb milling...
[19:25:43] <les> laminate trimmer
[19:25:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I should go to my suppliers and pick up the part I order, that is the wrong size. (6-40 set screws, instead of 6-32. :( )
[19:26:02] <cradek> some machines use a dremel
[19:26:05] <les> 30k+
[19:26:25] <robin_sz> I know someting even better
[19:26:37] <les> ?
[19:26:44] <robin_sz> its called an "etching tank"
[19:26:50] <cradek> bah
[19:26:53] <les> haha
[19:27:19] <cradek> robin_sz: this is cheap, works great, and uses no chemicals
[19:27:23] <A-L-P-H-A> les, so, the procress: drill with a Letter C or D drill bit, chase with a 1/4" reamer [use cutting oil]. drop / press a dowel inside?
[19:27:52] <A-L-P-H-A> C = .2420" D = .2460"
[19:28:14] <les> would have to hunt up c and d...but around .05 mm or so under
[19:28:27] <robin_sz> cradek: I hacve etch here, two containers, and a pile of 'laser star' paper ...
[19:28:40] <les> d looks good
[19:28:47] <robin_sz> cradek: so long as you are having fun though
[19:28:47] <A-L-P-H-A> closest is D, which is 0.1mm smaller.
[19:29:29] <cradek> robin_sz: can you do 8 mil traces with 8 mil separation with that laser stuff?
[19:29:38] <les> reamers usually cut a little over if they are asked to do much more than a few thousandths
[19:29:47] <cradek> robin_sz: two traces between DIP pads?
[19:29:49] <robin_sz> cradek: whats a mil?
[19:29:57] <cradek> robin_sz: thousandth of an inch
[19:30:05] <robin_sz> yeah
[19:30:08] <cradek> .2 mm
[19:30:17] <les> .02
[19:30:19] <A-L-P-H-A> 8mil = 0.2mm
[19:30:23] <robin_sz> 5 thou is best ive seen from ot as I rememebr
[19:30:34] <robin_sz> 8 though would be ok
[19:30:39] <cradek> this is the stuff you iron to the board?
[19:30:43] <robin_sz> nah
[19:30:46] <robin_sz> thats crap
[19:30:49] <cradek> no kidding
[19:30:52] <cradek> that's why I was so surprised
[19:30:56] <cradek> what is "laser star" then?
[19:31:00] <A-L-P-H-A> I get 10mil from lazer printer + photo paper + iron + etch.
[19:31:03] <robin_sz> print onto laser star,
[19:31:05] <A-L-P-H-A> etchant.
[19:31:23] <robin_sz> put laser star over UV sensitive board,
[19:31:28] <robin_sz> 20 ins in the light box
[19:31:35] <robin_sz> dunk in hcl
[19:31:39] <robin_sz> wash
[19:31:45] <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: I've tried that but I hate all the finicky work.
[19:31:46] <robin_sz> dunk in fecl3
[19:31:53] <cradek> robin_sz: aha
[19:32:07] <robin_sz> I just have two plastic tubs
[19:32:10] <cradek> robin_sz: is that the nasty brown stuff?
[19:32:16] <robin_sz> yeah
[19:32:21] <A-L-P-H-A> cradek, what finicky work? I iron it own, peel [dry]... comes of easily. You have to get certain type of paper photo papter.
[19:32:49] <cradek> robin_sz: how do you align the sides for exposure?
[19:33:08] <A-L-P-H-A> from print to etched board is 10 minutes. + drilling time, and + design time.
[19:33:19] <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: you drill manually?
[19:33:47] <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: I go blind at about hole 20
[19:33:49] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah. not with my stupid mill right now. There's sooo much backlash right now.
[19:34:21] <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: I've done it that way, but I'll never go back as long as I live.
[19:34:42] <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: you should try milling if you get your mill working decent
[19:34:50] <robin_sz> cradek: easy ... print the two side
[19:34:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I'd use the drill excellon (??) code, if I trusted my mill.
[19:35:11] <A-L-P-H-A> the mill hasn't been turned on since early summer I think.
[19:35:14] <robin_sz> sellotape them to a 1" wide strip of scrpa board
[19:35:20] <robin_sz> scrap
[19:35:37] <robin_sz> on to each side, aligning them perfectly
[19:35:54] <robin_sz> place the baord inbetween
[19:36:03] <cradek> robin_sz: ah, I didn't use scrap board and it was always a little off
[19:36:22] <robin_sz> yeah, the scrap board really helps
[19:36:41] <robin_sz> I fancy a little CNC pcb drill rig
[19:36:56] <cradek> my procedure is: stick board to table, start emc, change tools when it prompts me, done. (it cuts it out and everything)
[19:37:18] <A-L-P-H-A> wth. someone tells me to make a phone call, and then proceeds to use the phone. stupid.
[19:37:26] <robin_sz> have you tried using a 'floating nose' engraver?
[19:37:45] <cradek> no - this works just great as-is
[19:37:59] <cradek> the board is surprisingly flat when stuck to the table with tape
[19:38:06] <cradek> there's a scrap board under it so I can drill through
[19:38:32] <robin_sz> right
[19:38:33] <cradek> I use the tape that's meant for taping down tiles to the floor
[19:39:04] <cradek> it has fabric/string (?) in it
[19:39:16] <robin_sz> the current batch of board im playing with are 440mm x 200mm
[19:39:21] <A-L-P-H-A> oh this is going to be fun... if the backlash it down to around 0.005" I'll be happy... atleast the software can compensate for that.
[19:39:29] <robin_sz> I cant imagine how long that would take
[19:39:35] <cradek> robin_sz: no kidding
[19:39:41] <cradek> robin_sz: my working area is ~ 4x6"
[19:39:45] <robin_sz> heh:)
[19:39:57] <robin_sz> actually, it does exceed my process too
[19:40:10] <robin_sz> I have to etch in 'two halves' :)
[19:40:16] <cradek> robin_sz: this isn't for any kind of "batches" - it's just for my little projects.
[19:40:22] <robin_sz> yeah
[19:40:29] <robin_sz> my etch is just for ones offs
[19:40:33] <cradek> robin_sz: 4x6" (eurocard) size FR4 boards are dirt cheap
[19:40:43] <robin_sz> or 'lets make 4 like this and see if they blow up'
[19:40:56] <cradek> yeah I guess I've made several of some things, but it's just for me
[19:41:06] <cradek> my complicated stepper driver boards come to mind
[19:41:12] <robin_sz> we have to do 'solder vias' whic is a pain
[19:41:20] <cradek> agreed
[19:41:55] <robin_sz> when we eventually get it right, we'll get em made properly
[19:42:13] <robin_sz> ie not in europe :(
[19:42:24] <cradek> I use 24ga wire and a #75 drill
[19:42:34] <cradek> it's friction fit so you can cut short lengths and they stay in the board
[19:42:53] <robin_sz> wanna hear my (brief) encounter with a local PCB manufacturer
[19:43:01] <cradek> sometimes I thread the wire in and out of all the vias like I'm sewing with the wire, then solder them all and cut off all the scrap
[19:43:19] <cradek> it's easy then because the wire can't fall out
[19:43:36] <robin_sz> we normally get pcbs doen far east, but for some reason decided to try a local PCB guy ... gave him the gerber files and off he went
[19:43:59] <robin_sz> there are 32 boards on a 'big board'
[19:44:20] <robin_sz> and, we offered to nest the gerbers, but no . he cwould do that
[19:44:33] <robin_sz> so they turn up. late.
[19:44:47] <robin_sz> and .. each mini board is .010 too big
[19:45:02] <les> I just tooled up the production board for the encoder I designed
[19:45:03] <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz, les, if I don't do the dowel? couldn't I just drill and tap a second hole?
[19:45:10] <les> the protos were milled
[19:45:17] <robin_sz> so .. board 8 on a strip of 8 is .080 too far to the left
[19:45:27] <robin_sz> does it fit the solder mask, NO.
[19:45:27] <cradek> oops...
[19:45:48] <robin_sz> and this idiot stands there and srgues why it not wrong really
[19:45:52] <robin_sz> argues
[19:46:16] <cradek> haha solder mask being off 80 mils seems a little wrong to me
[19:46:19] <robin_sz> how our gerber must be wrong (we pulled it up on the screen and put cursors on it etc)
[19:46:31] <les> alpha: you can do that...the dowel just allows precise reassembly and stability
[19:46:44] <les> if the forces are small just bolt it on
[19:46:56] <robin_sz> well, we already had the solder mask, all they had to do was place a grid of 4 x 8 of our gerbers on a baord
[19:47:19] <robin_sz> anyway, rather than correct the problem and apologise, he argued black was white
[19:47:47] <cradek> oh, he didn't apply the mask for you, I see
[19:48:14] <robin_sz> nope. all he had to do was make the board to the spec we gave,
[19:48:46] <robin_sz> anyway, as we slung him out, we showed him the pile of 25,000 we use every month
[19:48:57] <robin_sz> then he started to grovel :)
[19:49:10] <cradek> sorry bud, too late
[19:49:14] <robin_sz> quite
[19:49:44] <robin_sz> we did try another UK board house, but that was even funnier, so we stayed with the far east
[19:50:07] <robin_sz> (the rep failed to show up, but his mum phoned in to say he was ill)
[19:50:30] <cradek> hmm
[19:50:32] <les> heh...I kind of had enough of pcbs after working at a company that makes them
[19:50:35] <robin_sz> his mum! .. she could at least have pretended to be his secretary!
[19:50:42] <les> haw
[19:50:45] <cradek> not a good sign
[19:50:49] <robin_sz> quite
[19:51:06] <robin_sz> far-east have always made em nice. no worries.
[19:51:16] <cradek> that's worse than "he's off at class"
[19:51:25] <robin_sz> only snag is (as with everyting over there) cash up front
[19:51:34] <robin_sz> and 2 months lead time
[19:52:05] <robin_sz> so you basically need 2 months worth of prodcution money just to get the stuff in
[19:52:25] <robin_sz> another month passes whilst it gets built into product
[19:52:31] <robin_sz> another before the customer pays
[19:53:34] <robin_sz> sigh
[19:53:39] <robin_sz> * robin_sz stops complainng
[19:57:14] <les> I chose this company to manufacture my encoder tronics:
[19:57:18] <les> http://www.bit7.com/#
[19:57:40] <les> I designed the pcb on protel though.
[19:58:18] <les> They were fairly copetitive with far east firms
[19:58:54] <les> You ought to see how fast their pick and place machines are
[20:01:41] <les> But to be honest...my tronics are just tied together ap notes haha
[20:01:48] <les> like most?
[20:02:04] <cradek> yep, probably so
[20:02:46] <cradek> I would have never picked them because their web site sucks.
[20:03:00] <les> yes it does
[20:03:09] <cradek> "wave your mouse over all this crap and see if some content appears"
[20:03:09] <les> really poor
[20:03:58] <les> but I had them do the BMW no moving parts fuel sensor and they did a great job...in spite of their web site design
[20:04:26] <cradek> you mean fuel level?
[20:04:31] <les> yes
[20:04:40] <cradek> how do you do that without a float?
[20:05:08] <les> a special lossy lightpipe that hangs down in the tank
[20:05:51] <les> optical
[20:05:57] <cradek> huh, I thought this technology was pretty much settled
[20:06:08] <cradek> what's the advantage?
[20:06:41] <les> no float...no cermet or wire sender ...MUCH lower price
[20:07:08] <cradek> is it separate from the fuel pump?
[20:07:26] <les> no it is on the pump assembly
[20:07:39] <cradek> interesting
[20:07:57] <les> a little very funny shaped stick of ULTEM
[20:08:44] <les> That did the best in "bad" gas
[20:09:03] <les> in many parts of the world fuel quality is very poor
[20:09:12] <les> full of mud
[20:09:19] <les> full of aromatics
[20:12:02] <les> Ultimately some production may end up in the far east
[20:12:18] <les> But early on at least we keep it close
[20:12:41] <les> not really my decision
[20:12:58] <les> But I would rather go to Chicago than China
[20:13:05] <les> heh
[20:13:47] <les> Anyway all those had prototype boards that were milled
[20:13:53] <les> Why?
[20:14:01] <les> No good reason
[20:14:34] <les> We had a little desktop unit that was bought for something else
[20:14:47] <les> It cost 10k
[20:14:59] <les> 12x12 inch capability
[20:15:23] <les> ran most with .01 mill
[20:15:40] <les> had a little air spindle
[20:15:50] <les> 50krpm or something like that
[20:16:30] <les> no plated through holes though
[20:17:01] <les> but that was ok...we try to avoid them on surface mount anyway
[20:19:12] <acemi> there are INPUT_SCALE and OUTPUT_SCALE in emc.ini. are these used only with servo motor?
[20:20:16] <les> with all I think
[20:20:46] <les> I do not use the stepper version so not really sure
[20:28:34] <robin_sz> in stepper, they have to be identical, or Bad Things(tm) happen
[20:29:07] <robin_sz> some people might say 'why not have it only pay attention to one of them in stepper then?' .. but they are jsut weird
[20:29:25] <les> heh
[20:29:35] <robin_sz> anyone got any experience of 3d stuff
[20:29:51] <robin_sz> as in point cloud stuff
[20:30:10] <les> I have done a little
[20:30:31] <robin_sz> how do you create an surface from them?
[20:30:34] <robin_sz> eg stl
[20:30:46] <les> remember...I put sculpture in inky water and took a picture
[20:31:08] <les> rhino can do that I think
[20:31:18] <robin_sz> hmm
[20:31:53] <les> possibly even fit a NURBS surface to them
[20:32:02] <robin_sz> hmm, that would be kewl
[20:32:16] <les> yup
[20:32:27] <robin_sz> I have some sample point cloud stuff
[20:32:40] <les> I just don't do that much...3 axis 3-d is soooo slow
[20:33:22] <robin_sz> and a rho
[20:33:27] <robin_sz> and a rhino demp
[20:33:29] <robin_sz> demo
[20:33:35] <les> grab evaluation rhino and go to it
[20:33:40] <les> ah hahah
[20:34:10] <les> rho? demp?
[20:34:16] <les> hehe as bad as me
[20:34:17] <robin_sz> bah. typo
[20:34:24] <les> another micro stroke
[20:34:30] <les> haha
[20:35:38] <les> well I cannot paint today...too cold.
[20:36:03] <les> Better clean up the house a little...will prob have some guests soon
[20:36:18] <les> Neighbors with electric heat pumps
[20:36:37] <les> power will prob be off soon and for days
[20:36:54] <les> very bad ice storm brewing
[20:37:51] <robin_sz> coo
[20:37:58] <robin_sz> sounds fun
[20:38:12] <les> no generator either
[20:38:18] <les> bluh
[20:38:27] <robin_sz> thats possibly a mistake ;0)
[20:38:38] <les> i'll say
[20:38:40] <robin_sz> you have generator?
[20:39:05] <les> My dad has an extra to give me but it's down in FL
[20:39:16] <les> So i did not buy one
[20:39:59] <les> what work can I get done with an alladin lamp in the shop?
[20:41:17] <rayh> les: That storm got you pretty good, eh.
[20:41:44] <les> They bought a bigger one down there due to power outages lasting as long as a month
[20:41:53] <les> ray: hits tonight
[20:42:10] <les> last one had no power for 5 days
[20:44:26] <rayh> Better you than me. Got those quite often in Oregon while there.
[20:45:17] <les> Almost never got them in Chicago
[20:54:28] <A-L-P-H-A> this is awesome... I ordered the wrong part from my supplier. I ordered #6-40 set screws by accident. But when I went to pick them up, they gave me #6-32. :) sweet.
[20:55:00] <A-L-P-H-A> k, went out and bought a C and D drill... about to have some fun to drill the bracket into place.
[20:55:02] <A-L-P-H-A> horray.
[20:55:06] <les> Funny thing I have always noticed about 6-32....
[20:55:10] <A-L-P-H-A> FUNZ!
[20:55:17] <les> taps break unusually easily
[20:55:37] <A-L-P-H-A> cause they're really thin.
[20:55:54] <A-L-P-H-A> I was hand tapping the stainless steel motor coupling I made.
[20:55:58] <les> 4-40 does not break for me
[20:56:01] <A-L-P-H-A> i felt the tap twist, so I backed off.
[20:56:13] <A-L-P-H-A> I've only had 4-40, and 5-40 taps break on me.
[20:56:17] <les> or even 0-80
[20:56:19] <A-L-P-H-A> no 6-32.
[20:56:27] <les> that is the smallest tap I have
[20:56:31] <A-L-P-H-A> I've never tapped something that small. never needed to.
[20:57:06] <les> I used 0-80 socket head cap screws on a project
[20:57:18] <A-L-P-H-A> what was the project? a model of some sort?
[20:57:37] <les> That encoder I talked about earlier
[20:57:51] <A-L-P-H-A> oh, I wasn't here... I guess I'll readup
[20:57:54] <les> just for the prototypes
[20:59:05] <les> I bought a bag of 100 hex keys for them
[20:59:09] <les> tiny
[20:59:24] <les> looked like little wire L
[20:59:50] <les> I think about .030 flat to flat
[21:00:16] <A-L-P-H-A> tiny
[21:00:19] <A-L-P-H-A> very tiny
[21:00:29] <A-L-P-H-A> what kinda encoders?
[21:00:40] <les> tap drill is...um er #56 I think
[21:00:52] <les> absolute encoders
[21:00:56] <A-L-P-H-A> I use #60 to drill my boards.
[21:01:16] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm not fimiliar with that... like the type on my digital calipre?
[21:01:23] <A-L-P-H-A> brb... my coffee is done.
[21:01:25] <les> yes
[21:01:29] <les> k
[21:08:05] <A-L-P-H-A> how do those work anyways?
[21:09:10] <A-L-P-H-A> I've never taken one apart... so I don't know how it works. :)
[21:10:17] <gezr> sup
[21:11:09] <A-L-P-H-A> not much... building the nerve to drill, ream my milling table, to put a dowel into it, to lock the bracket in place.
[21:11:47] <A-L-P-H-A> http://lloydleung.com/gallery/Mill_Related/Mill%20Brackets/bracket%20profile.png I'm gonna do it somewhere along the rounded segment, and the sholdar... as far out as I can...
[21:13:02] <gezr> you are going to use a taper pin right?
[21:13:21] <A-L-P-H-A> yeah, one end has a slight taper to get it into the hole.
[21:13:31] <A-L-P-H-A> the other is flat.
[21:14:08] <gezr> I mean the whole pin is tapered :)
[21:14:21] <A-L-P-H-A> no
[21:14:36] <A-L-P-H-A> I got the straight dowels.
[21:14:47] <A-L-P-H-A> 1/4" in various lengths. 1" 1.5" 2"
[21:15:00] <gezr> ah, cool
[21:15:39] <gezr> just as effective, but with a tapered hole, if you get a miss alignment over time, you just re-position and re-ream the hole and insert pin
[21:15:45] <A-L-P-H-A> went and bought a C and D letter drills, (.2520 and .2460" respectively).
[21:16:28] <A-L-P-H-A> I'm not worried about the bracket. I'm worried about my mill MUCH more.
[21:16:44] <gezr> what happed to your mill?
[21:18:00] <A-L-P-H-A> umm... well... I cracked the base [non structural part] bye ramming nylon lock nut onto the ballscrew, the base cracked from the impact wrench I was using... I couldn't get the nut on otherwise.
[21:18:02] <A-L-P-H-A> but right now.
[21:18:32] <A-L-P-H-A> what's wrong is the mill's backlash is caused by the twisting of the bracket from the bolt/mount area. As it's only held in place with 1 bolt.
[21:19:03] <A-L-P-H-A> so I need to prevent the bracket from moving. I can feel it move...
[21:19:11] <A-L-P-H-A> brb
[21:20:06] <gezr> im going to have to use the cad to redesign my blast cabinet, I have come to the conclusion that I need a pyrimid bottom
[21:20:54] <les> I could use a blast cabinet too...but just about out of floor space
[21:22:41] <gezr> I guess I could take a quick photo of it, you guys want to see it in its rough draft?
[21:22:49] <rayh> Anyone using or know of someone using solid edge with emc?
[21:22:50] <les> sure
[21:23:04] <gezr> les : give me a few moments then okay?
[21:23:10] <les> ok
[21:23:53] <les> ray:no...use artcam, millwrite, and Mastercam
[21:24:21] <les> They all have postprocessors that work fine with emc
[21:24:50] <les> use millwrite mostly
[21:25:07] <rayh> Thanks les.
[21:25:17] <les> heh
[21:26:02] <les> I have heard of solid edge but never saw it
[21:26:07] <les> searching now
[21:27:11] <les> oh...that's a cad program
[21:27:43] <rayh> If I remember edgecam is the cam part of it.
[21:28:13] <les> oh
[21:28:20] <les> looks real high end
[21:30:11] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, post them up. :)
[21:32:30] <les> ray: fancy site for solidedge...all those straeming video demonstrations
[21:32:43] <les> streaming haha
[21:34:54] <A-L-P-H-A> holy crap... half a tangerine... and 21 seeds...
[21:35:01] <A-L-P-H-A> this tangerine sucks.
[21:35:27] <rayh> Un huh streaming at 1.2k
[21:37:44] <A-L-P-H-A> anyone working on some neat projects that want to share photos of?
[21:37:52] <A-L-P-H-A> or even past projects?
[21:40:17] <A-L-P-H-A> damn this tangerine.. finally finsihed it... 31 seeds that I counted... + any that I may have swallowed unknowingly.
[21:43:21] <gezr> www.masternode.net/gallery they are in the machining pages
[21:44:50] <A-L-P-H-A> wood?
[21:44:56] <gezr> yeah
[21:45:06] <gezr> I dont have a high pressure system, wood is fine
[21:45:15] <A-L-P-H-A> wouldn't it have been cheaper to make it out of metal?
[21:45:19] <A-L-P-H-A> sheet metal?
[21:45:38] <gezr> nope
[21:45:45] <gezr> I dont own a break
[21:45:50] <A-L-P-H-A> oh.
[21:46:00] <A-L-P-H-A> I bought a manual break for like I think $40CDN.
[21:46:02] <A-L-P-H-A> 36"
[21:46:08] <gezr> too small
[21:46:14] <A-L-P-H-A> works well enough for me.
[21:46:21] <gezr> oh I bet it does
[21:46:31] <gezr> that thing will work perfectly for me :)
[21:46:56] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, not like it'd be hard to make one... just two pieces of angel iron, with hinge plates mounted on both ends... welded together.
[21:46:59] <A-L-P-H-A> cool.
[21:46:59] <gezr> I am going to make the pyramidal bottom though, im going to draft that up now
[21:47:08] <A-L-P-H-A> looks good... just surprised that you made it out of wood. :)
[21:47:37] <gezr> oh I dont have a welder either
[21:48:00] <A-L-P-H-A> oh. then never mind.
[21:49:07] <gezr> all those parts for the most part were cut at the home depot(they should pay me, but as it is, thats free advertising)
[21:49:34] <gezr> it all fit in my trunk, I had to fold down a back seat so that the long 2x4 could fit
[21:50:18] <gezr> they wont cut angles, so Ill have to buy a jig saw now, and maybe a circular but a jig saw is perfect for home use, and a bit safer
[21:50:52] <rayh> paul_c: Got a modified compile_bditng script that runs config and make.
[21:51:03] <gezr> you see what Im talking about at the bottom whre the V is, that wont work unless I put 50lbs of bead down there
[21:52:02] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hits the sherry
[21:53:29] <paul_c> rayh: Great - Going to commit it to SF ?
[21:54:06] <rayh> Sure. What should I call it?
[21:54:21] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, why not just put two channels down on the side, to create your upside down pyramid?
[21:54:25] <robin_sz> call it "brian"
[21:54:42] <A-L-P-H-A> callit "Blue" blue is always a nice color.
[21:54:55] <A-L-P-H-A> "gizmodo"
[21:55:01] <rayh> config_brian_blue?
[21:55:14] <rayh> That's a nice name!
[21:55:19] <A-L-P-H-A> I like gizmodo. :)
[21:55:19] <robin_sz> ftang_ftang_ole_biscuitbarrel?
[21:55:58] <robin_sz> although, thats a bit too common
[21:56:33] <rayh> Is that a libretto? If so what tune do you do it to?
[21:57:06] <gezr> A-L-P-H-A : I may be able to keep some of the existing shape, I dont know yet
[21:57:07] <A-L-P-H-A> call it "Microsoft_outlook" and scare people away.
[21:57:39] <robin_sz> the original was "Tarquin Fintimlinbinwhinbimlim Bus Stop F'tang F'tang Ole Biscuit-Barrel", but I digress
[21:58:10] <A-L-P-H-A> gezr, what happens when you say, angle/tile the base? wouldn't all the media shift to one side?
[21:58:35] <robin_sz> depends
[21:58:36] <rayh> How about compile_tillie?
[21:58:50] <robin_sz> in the northern hemisphere it would shift to the right,
[21:58:51] <A-L-P-H-A> tillie... sounds like a garden tool.
[21:58:58] <rayh> Is that the senior diaper?
[21:59:40] <robin_sz> * robin_sz tries to remeber what diaper translates to
[21:59:45] <A-L-P-H-A> I like "gizmodo" :)
[21:59:53] <A-L-P-H-A> napkin?
[22:00:00] <robin_sz> right
[22:00:35] <A-L-P-H-A> "gizmodo huggies" hehe.
[22:00:40] <rayh> Okay. If I name it gizmodo Matt's gonna jump all over me again.
[22:01:08] <A-L-P-H-A> sounds like a stuffed animal name a geek chick would give to one of her toys.
[22:01:17] <A-L-P-H-A> why?
[22:01:33] <rayh> There's a variable in tkemc named whizbang.
[22:01:41] <robin_sz> hmmm
[22:03:19] <A-L-P-H-A> btw, what are we naming?
[22:03:30] <A-L-P-H-A> we I mean, rayh.
[22:04:12] <rayh> a script that compiles emc1 using configure.
[22:05:52] <cradek> isn't it ./configure and then make?
[22:06:24] <cradek> (I haven't triedused configure in emc1 yet)
[22:06:26] <rayh> Yep. With four makes in two directories.
[22:06:38] <cradek> ah
[22:07:17] <rayh> spose I could wrap it up in tcl/tk and make it look like an installer for that other os.
[22:07:42] <A-L-P-H-A> why not just use BASH source install_script
[22:08:40] <rayh> There are several install scripts in the nearly dead emc/scripts/generic directory already.
[22:08:58] <cradek> I think you should remove dead scripts
[22:09:07] <rayh> Has anyone run the config stuff for emc1 with 2.20
[22:09:46] <rayh> Yes I will get a mop and pail and ask sf to clean out the junk in there.
[22:10:31] <paul_c> the autoconfig stuff hasn't been tested with 2.20
[22:11:19] <rayh> Okay. When I get a chance I'll try it here.
[22:11:36] <rayh> * rayh gotta run.
[22:12:00] <A-L-P-H-A> oh man... that stupid cube I made last night... it's sooo well balanced... I can flick it, and it just keeps spining between my finger and the desk.
[22:41:26] <robin_sz> mmm, rhino is kewl, but surfacing a point cloud doesnt seem to be in there
[22:41:35] <robin_sz> except with a 250 dollar plugin
[22:42:57] <robin_sz> wonder of there are other ways to bind a surface to a point cloud ...
[22:43:03] <robin_sz> more ... err ...
[22:43:05] <robin_sz> cheaply
[22:44:03] <asdfqwega> robin_sz: You could always get a favor from a college student
[22:44:32] <robin_sz> asdfqwega: your kidding, fun though that may be, my wife would kill me.
[22:45:07] <asdfqwega> Okay, who has a dirty mind?
[22:45:15] <robin_sz> * robin_sz raises his hand
[22:45:28] <asdfqwega> Scratch that question!
[22:46:24] <asdfqwega> My brother Tim is studying animation, and he's got access to (expensive) software
[22:46:31] <paul_c> robin_sz: CoP to STL is trivial
[22:46:50] <paul_c> Use VTK
[22:46:53] <robin_sz> paul_c: it is?
[22:46:59] <robin_sz> vtk ... hmmm
[22:47:21] <asdfqwega> Vertices To ?
[22:47:27] <paul_c> it has a CoP import from what I remember.
[22:47:55] <paul_c> vtk - Visualisation Tool Kit
[22:48:47] <robin_sz> I know, I have it already
[22:50:52] <asdfqwega> CoP would be somewhat easy to write a script for, but I don't know any file formats for export
[22:53:41] <robin_sz> i just didnt realise it would surface a CoP ...
[22:54:10] <robin_sz> the trouble with VTK is its just a set of libraries and a few demos. it needs someone ot build a killer app with it.
[22:55:56] <asdfqwega> How does VTK compare with OpenCascade?
[22:57:07] <asdfqwega> The only thing I've ever managed to get working with OC is the GraphiteOne CAD binary
[22:57:27] <paul_c> vtk is a totally different library
[22:58:38] <asdfqwega> Apples <> oranges, I get it
[23:10:40] <robin_sz> * robin_sz installs VTK on one of his debian boxes
[23:10:50] <asdfqwega> Hehe...From the FAQ - "How do I learn VTK?"
[23:10:58] <robin_sz> readthat
[23:11:04] <asdfqwega> Buy Bill a beer and get him talking about VTK
[23:11:26] <robin_sz> doesnt mention point cloud at all in the faq
[23:11:49] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega needs to install Debian on his upper-end machine
[23:13:34] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega lights a bonfire to stay warm
[23:19:28] <robin_sz> hmmm ... ive been irc'ing for too long
[23:19:52] <robin_sz> I just said, as a sort of half audible commentary
[23:20:26] <robin_sz> "slash me blows his nose" as I blew my nose ... my wife thinks I might be mad.
[23:33:16] <asdfqwega> robin_sz: I don't think anyone has any doubt on that by now ;)
[23:33:40] <robin_sz> * robin_sz bleats like a sheep
[23:34:17] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega bleats a drum
[23:36:13] <robin_sz> time flies like an arrow
[23:36:17] <robin_sz> but ...
[23:36:23] <robin_sz> fruit flies like a banana
[23:47:44] <asdfqwega> Gah!
[23:47:49] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega holds nose
[23:48:37] <A-L-P-H-A> Got it figured out now... I'm gonna loose 1/2" to 1" of Y axis travel... :( it'll be sturdy. Going to put a 3/8 or 1/2" plate which be bolted to the backside of the y-axis crossslide, and bolt on a floating flange (flange + ball nut). I don't have enough space to drill and put a dowel in place.
[23:49:26] <A-L-P-H-A> actually, screw the floating flange... I'll just put the ballnut to that bracket.
[23:49:53] <paul_c> * paul_c builds BDI-4.12
[23:50:41] <A-L-P-H-A> paul_c, where's BDI-4.12 gonna be located? Sherline? Ever thought about putting up a bittorrent for the BDIs?
[23:52:54] <robin_sz> A-L-P-H-A: no, you're going to *lose* 1/2" to 1" ...
[23:53:09] <A-L-P-H-A> lose. yeah.
[23:53:16] <A-L-P-H-A> loosey goosey.
[23:54:53] <paul_c> Gonna try and get the ISO on a number of servers, and maybe persuade Sherline to host it as well.
[23:55:20] <A-L-P-H-A> How big will this iso be? I maybe able to host it for a short while on one of my servers.
[23:55:34] <A-L-P-H-A> or why not sourceforge?
[23:55:36] <paul_c> ~630Megs
[23:56:02] <paul_c> SF doesn't like ISOs on their servers.
[23:56:16] <A-L-P-H-A> hmm.
[23:57:07] <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.phpwebhosting.com/ ?
[23:58:36] <websys> http://powweb.com ?
[23:59:05] <robin_sz> is this a debian based BDI?
[23:59:11] <robin_sz> or still dedrat?
[23:59:12] <paul_c> yup
[23:59:16] <robin_sz> kewl
[23:59:25] <paul_c> Debian
[23:59:33] <robin_sz> so, why not just put the .debs up on a source?
[23:59:46] <A-L-P-H-A> wow. that's CHEAP! $7.77
