#emc | Logs for 2005-01-18

[02:22:30] <danfalck> hi guys
[02:23:16] <cradek> hi dan
[02:24:17] <danfalck> How are things going w/ Axis?
[02:24:47] <cradek> well, I use it all the time
[02:25:19] <cradek> I think it works just great
[02:25:39] <danfalck> I'm going to start using if to check out G-code
[02:25:54] <cradek> it's definitely good for that
[02:25:54] <danfalck> I found that Sagcad can output the code for me
[02:27:00] <danfalck> I'll probably set up some combination of SagCad and Axis
[02:27:05] <cradek> darnit, I can't remember how to make autocad go into setup mode at the commandline
[02:27:58] <cradek> is sagcad that japanese one?
[02:28:23] <danfalck> yes
[02:28:37] <danfalck> but the subtitles are in english :)
[02:28:42] <cradek> did you get it to do anything neat?
[02:29:11] <danfalck> yes. I can actually draw profiles with it then generate gcode, one profile at a time
[02:29:32] <danfalck> gezr helped me set up vim w/ his syntax highlighting for gcode
[02:29:55] <cradek> so you draw lines and arcs, and it generates that path?
[02:30:04] <cradek> is that what you mean?
[02:30:16] <danfalck> so, you draw the profile, click the g-code button, select the path and direction of cut
[02:30:27] <danfalck> click through a dialogue box
[02:30:39] <danfalck> then the editor pops up with your g-code
[02:30:50] <cradek> nice
[02:30:51] <danfalck> it surprised the hell out of me
[02:31:04] <cradek> please tell me exactly what you mean when you say "profile"
[02:31:09] <danfalck> I looked at a binary last year and couldn't make heads or tales out of it
[02:31:26] <danfalck> compiling it on my system gives me english buttons though
[02:31:44] <danfalck> profile as in lines and arcs chained together
[02:31:56] <cradek> aha, polylines
[02:31:57] <danfalck> they don't have to be closed though
[02:32:00] <cradek> (I'm an autocad user)
[02:32:17] <danfalck> I used to be too
[02:32:28] <cradek> I use autocad for that with homemade lisp to output gcode
[02:32:35] <danfalck> I use ashlar vellum at work
[02:32:47] <danfalck> we just bought ProE linux version though
[02:32:56] <cradek> it's great because you can use "offset" to generate a toolpath from a polyline that represents the part
[02:33:38] <danfalck> yes, I use offset a lot (not in sagcad though-haven't figured that one out yet)
[02:34:10] <danfalck> are you running acad under native windows environment and moving files to a linux box?
[02:34:46] <cradek> I use acad r12 running on FreeDOS running on QEMU running on Linux
[02:34:52] <danfalck> cool
[02:35:18] <cradek> two days before I graduated from college I bought the full version of acad r12 at the student price of $99
[02:35:25] <cradek> best $99 I ever spent
[02:35:36] <danfalck> yes acad12 is great
[02:35:44] <danfalck> used it a lot some years ago
[02:36:06] <danfalck> I have acad2000 but haven't used it much in a couple years
[02:36:10] <cradek> it has a windows version but I never got used to it - always liked the dos version better
[02:36:22] <danfalck> the dos version was fast
[02:36:27] <cradek> I have a tablet somewhere that works with it but it takes too much desk space
[02:36:45] <cradek> I (briefly) ran acad for a day job
[02:37:13] <danfalck> I have been using Qcad a bit lately to make dxf files for sagcad
[02:37:23] <danfalck> It's really hard for me to get used to
[02:37:40] <cradek> so you draw plines in qcad and load the dxf in sagcad to generate gcode?
[02:37:45] <danfalck> I used to think it was just a toy, but now it doesn't look too bad
[02:37:53] <danfalck> yes you can do that
[02:38:04] <danfalck> It works out easier that way
[02:38:19] <danfalck> sagcad's drafting is pretty obtuse
[02:38:50] <cradek> are you doing 3d or 2.5d?
[02:38:57] <danfalck> but, sagcad has a pretty small footprint and is more interesting than just using command line stuff
[02:39:09] <danfalck> it's only 2D
[02:39:14] <cradek> ah
[02:39:19] <danfalck> not even 2.5D :)
[02:39:22] <cradek> so how do you specify depths, feeds etc?
[02:39:35] <cradek> do you still have autocad? I could give you my lisp. It's 2.5d
[02:39:36] <danfalck> you have to manually insert them in the editor now
[02:39:45] <cradek> bleah
[02:39:46] <danfalck> sure, I would like that
[02:40:06] <danfalck> I still have it on another machine (in the garage at the moment)
[02:40:27] <danfalck> I will be using it as soon as the weather gets warmer and I get the shop set up
[02:40:51] <danfalck> thanks
[02:41:01] <cradek> ┬▒documentation at the top of the file
[02:41:07] <danfalck> I'll look in my dir to make sure it got there ok
[02:43:00] <danfalck> ok got it
[02:43:07] <cradek> let me send a file to use with it to experiment
[02:43:10] <danfalck> ok
[02:43:15] <cradek> it cuts out a hole for a DB25 connector
[02:44:28] <danfalck> ok thanks
[02:45:12] <cradek> sure
[02:45:18] <cradek> it works great for simple stuff
[02:45:47] <danfalck> so, are you a python programmer?
[02:45:55] <cradek> more or less
[02:46:00] <danfalck> I like python
[02:46:18] <danfalck> I have been studying it for a while, but not really programming
[02:46:21] <cradek> I've done a couple big projects in it, but I'm not sure yet whether I like it
[02:46:37] <danfalck> are you a C programmer?
[02:46:54] <cradek> yes
[02:47:09] <cradek> I'm a programmer in lots of things I guess
[02:47:30] <danfalck> is working on emc going to burn you out?
[02:47:38] <danfalck> programming all the time...
[02:47:47] <cradek> I haven't done much programming in emc - I just fix the bugs that bite me.
[02:47:52] <danfalck> ok
[02:47:57] <cradek> I don't really have much interest in developing emc2, sorry to say.
[02:48:03] <danfalck> you want to get some machines going then
[02:48:16] <cradek> I have my machine working perfectly with emc now
[02:48:20] <danfalck> good
[02:48:32] <cradek> I made a new 3-axis chopper stepper drive box with spindle control
[02:48:37] <cradek> just finished
[02:48:43] <cradek> I'm really happy with it
[02:48:47] <danfalck> what chips did you use?
[02:48:53] <cradek> instead of 10ipm on my mini mill, I get 25 now
[02:48:59] <danfalck> wow
[02:49:01] <cradek> L297/8
[02:49:10] <danfalck> cool. I've used them in the past
[02:49:11] <cradek> the drivers that came with it ... sucked
[02:49:24] <danfalck> what did you have before?
[02:49:40] <cradek> a transistor and resistor per winding
[02:49:53] <danfalck> was it commercial?
[02:49:55] <cradek> and a low-voltage power supply
[02:49:57] <cradek> yeah, maxnc
[02:50:07] <cradek> the mill itself and steppers are good
[02:50:16] <danfalck> oh yeah. I've delt with them before
[02:50:18] <cradek> but the spindle motor sucks, the controller sucks, the software sucks
[02:50:20] <danfalck> a long time ago
[02:50:27] <cradek> so I replaced all that with stuff that doesn't suck
[02:50:29] <danfalck> the software is what I used
[02:50:33] <cradek> now it's a great mill
[02:50:35] <danfalck> it sucked
[02:50:38] <cradek> hahaha
[02:50:40] <danfalck> I need to go
[02:50:42] <danfalck> dinner time
[02:50:44] <cradek> ok, goodnight
[02:50:46] <danfalck> thanks
[03:29:41] <jepler> hi chris
[03:32:11] <jepler> your mill isn't *done* at least until you do the spindle speed control and make the spindle go faster
[05:42:21] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega has rewired his stepper control / parport breakout / PWM laser control
[05:42:45] <asdfqwega> Yes, you too can use Rats-Nest(tm) Technology!
[05:47:34] <asdfqwega> Crivens, this is fugly.
[05:47:57] <asdfqwega> I've got two parports going into the control box
[05:48:47] <asdfqwega> I've got two IDC connectors on the shell, but I split up the ribbon cable and wire everything in the air
[05:50:22] <asdfqwega> So I have this spaghetti tangle ball, and I hold it up with a few wire-ties so the fan can blow on to the driver heatsinks.
[05:51:12] <asdfqwega> The only good thing is, it works...and better than the PCB and proto board I was using.
[05:55:34] <asdfqwega> So I've got it working again...what do I do now?
[13:08:07] <anonimasu> alex_joni: /me yawns
[13:08:10] <anonimasu> err
[13:08:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[13:09:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[13:09:09] <alex_joni> I'm waiting to get off work
[13:09:11] <alex_joni> :D
[13:09:28] <anonimasu> :)
[13:09:29] <anonimasu> me too
[13:09:35] <anonimasu> so I can try get the mill functioning..
[13:09:46] <alex_joni> yeah...
[13:10:18] <anonimasu> about 2 hours
[13:10:20] <alex_joni> I have one hour advantage... it's 15:10 here ;)
[13:10:20] <anonimasu> maybe 1:30
[13:10:40] <anonimasu> but I dont know if I should take some time to practice tig welding :)
[13:10:59] <alex_joni> tig welding is cool
[13:11:02] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:11:18] <anonimasu> I wish I had a welder like the one at work at home :)
[13:11:45] <anonimasu> although there's no one that really knows how to weld with it yet..
[13:12:04] <anonimasu> welding alu is hard :)
[13:12:29] <alex_joni> * alex_joni really likes microplasma
[13:12:42] <alex_joni> welding alu is not that hard
[13:12:49] <anonimasu> isnt it?
[13:12:50] <alex_joni> but you need an AC one
[13:12:53] <alex_joni> not really hard
[13:13:30] <anonimasu> the tig I weld with is a ac one..
[13:13:43] <alex_joni> what alu-thickness?
[13:13:54] <anonimasu> 3mm
[13:14:09] <anonimasu> the tig's a 350A watercooled new oerlikon unit..
[13:14:25] <alex_joni> 350A is way over for 3mm
[13:14:37] <anonimasu> about 1cm.. without preheating..
[13:15:04] <alex_joni> what type of welding?
[13:15:07] <alex_joni> buttwelding?
[13:15:14] <alex_joni> with or without filler wire?
[13:15:26] <anonimasu> with filler
[13:15:39] <alex_joni> I'd go around 100-150 A
[13:15:49] <alex_joni> depends on the weld you need
[13:15:50] <anonimasu> 120 is what I weld with..
[13:15:55] <alex_joni> sounds ok
[13:16:28] <anonimasu> still welding alu is hard :) or requires lots of training
[13:18:34] <anonimasu> stainless is really neat :)
[13:18:45] <anonimasu> did you see the image of the machine?
[13:18:49] <alex_joni> yeah.. I just welded some stainless
[13:18:54] <alex_joni> nice machine
[13:19:03] <anonimasu> :)
[13:19:06] <alex_joni> 1.5 mm stainless steel containers
[13:19:10] <anonimasu> nice :)
[13:19:19] <alex_joni> but not manually ;)
[13:19:25] <anonimasu> hehe
[13:19:32] <anonimasu> welding robot?
[13:19:49] <alex_joni> I always choose to weld with a robot or automat
[13:19:53] <anonimasu> :)
[13:19:56] <alex_joni> this time it wasn't robot
[13:19:59] <anonimasu> ok
[13:20:01] <alex_joni> tig is hard with a robot
[13:20:05] <anonimasu> yeah probably
[13:20:10] <anonimasu> you mean wire feeder?
[13:20:17] <alex_joni> because you need to keep the distance to the piece
[13:20:25] <alex_joni> height is very crucial for TIG
[13:20:29] <anonimasu> yeah yep
[13:20:38] <alex_joni> MIG/MAG doesn't really care (5-15mm is pretty ok)
[13:20:45] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:21:02] <anonimasu> but well, mig dosent compare to tig, either
[13:21:09] <alex_joni> mig is nicer ;)
[13:21:16] <alex_joni> you can even weld alu :D
[13:21:32] <anonimasu> yeah but the welds will look like crap ;)
[13:21:37] <alex_joni> tig is slow ;) but more accurate
[13:21:42] <anonimasu> used to have a mig for welding alu here..
[13:21:49] <alex_joni> not really crap... depends on the welding power source
[13:22:03] <anonimasu> well, tig is nicer although not in mass production
[13:22:10] <alex_joni> the company I work for (CLOOS) sold some MIG-Tandem for ALU
[13:22:31] <alex_joni> it was for the new ICE-trains (Deutsche Bahn)
[13:22:37] <anonimasu> ah ok
[13:22:40] <alex_joni> they weld the side panels of the cars
[13:22:46] <anonimasu> yeah if you are going to weld lots there are better things then tig..
[13:22:49] <alex_joni> so they need fast/good alu welds
[13:22:56] <alex_joni> MIG/YAG
[13:22:57] <alex_joni> :D
[13:23:00] <anonimasu> tig isnt really speedy ;)
[13:23:17] <alex_joni> yeah... but it's very clean (no noise, no spatter)
[13:23:23] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:23:35] <anonimasu> good welds also..
[13:23:43] <anonimasu> but that depends on the welder
[13:23:44] <anonimasu> :)
[13:23:53] <anonimasu> but a bad tig weld looks bad :)
[13:24:18] <alex_joni> so does a bad MIG weld ;)
[13:24:28] <anonimasu> not nesscesarily..
[13:24:35] <alex_joni> http://www.sudura.ro/pub/a14.jpg
[13:24:42] <alex_joni> some MIG weld I did a while ago
[13:24:48] <anonimasu> I've seen wonderful mig welds.. on the outside
[13:24:53] <anonimasu> that looked like OooOoo inside..
[13:25:00] <alex_joni> lol
[13:25:04] <anonimasu> looks nice...
[13:25:10] <alex_joni> yup.. but not manual ;)
[13:25:19] <anonimasu> kind of expected that :)
[13:25:31] <alex_joni> all I do is robot welding...
[13:25:39] <anonimasu> hehe
[13:25:59] <anonimasu> we mostly do one off stuff where I work so robots isnt a good option :9
[13:26:41] <alex_joni> probably not ;)
[13:27:30] <anonimasu> dosent welding alu with mig splatter lots?
[13:27:49] <alex_joni> not really, if you got a ALU MIG power source
[13:28:16] <anonimasu> ah in that case I dont know
[13:28:55] <anonimasu> but when welding alu with a regular normal mig :) it splatters like hell
[13:29:17] <alex_joni> the ones from CLOOS have a function called ALU-PLUS
[13:29:20] <alex_joni> MIG with pulse + Alu-Plus
[13:29:49] <anonimasu> ah ok
[13:30:12] <alex_joni> I'd buy a multi-process if I had to buy a welding machine
[13:30:17] <alex_joni> MIG/MAG/TIG/Stick
[13:30:48] <anonimasu> hm, I'd go for a small tig from like miller..
[13:30:51] <anonimasu> for home use..
[13:31:00] <anonimasu> I saw some good offers somone on cnczone bought..
[13:31:30] <anonimasu> although I dont know if that machine had upslope an
[13:31:35] <anonimasu> and downslope and things
[13:31:46] <anonimasu> but there were a model a notch over it that did
[13:31:50] <anonimasu> they seemed pretty affordable..
[13:32:51] <alex_joni> this is a great TIG machine: http://www.robcon.ro/sudura/images/glw300ih.jpg
[13:33:11] <alex_joni> but a lot bigger than home use ;)
[13:33:11] <anonimasu> :)
[13:33:18] <anonimasu> looks simmiliar to the one we have at work..
[13:33:23] <anonimasu> similiar..
[13:33:46] <anonimasu> although what do you weld with 300A at home ;)
[13:34:05] <alex_joni> yeah...
[13:34:13] <alex_joni> I'd buy a microplasma for home ;)
[13:34:17] <alex_joni> 0.5A - 80A
[13:34:22] <anonimasu> I've never seen anything like that
[13:34:26] <anonimasu> just on some ads..
[13:34:28] <alex_joni> it's the best
[13:34:39] <alex_joni> I played once with one, before we shipped it
[13:34:50] <alex_joni> I didn't even use a welding mask D:
[13:34:56] <anonimasu> heh
[13:35:09] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/sudura/images/gl80.jpg
[13:35:25] <alex_joni> you can weld .1 mm sheets
[13:35:37] <anonimasu> neat :)
[13:35:57] <alex_joni> and it's not very expensive...
[13:36:08] <alex_joni> around 6k EURO
[13:36:21] <anonimasu> ouch :D
[13:36:30] <anonimasu> for home use that's very expensive
[13:36:42] <alex_joni> I agree... but for industrial use...
[13:36:44] <anonimasu> the tig I was thinking about costs about 1000eur at max..
[13:36:45] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:37:06] <alex_joni> I just got a request from a friend
[13:37:11] <alex_joni> who welds some auto-parts
[13:37:12] <anonimasu> how thick stuff do you weld with a micrplasma?
[13:37:21] <alex_joni> you can go up to 2-3mm
[13:37:24] <anonimasu> ah ok
[13:37:24] <anonimasu> :)
[13:37:28] <alex_joni> depends on the weld you need
[13:37:40] <anonimasu> well, any kind of weld almost with full penetration..
[13:37:43] <alex_joni> the advantage is that you have a pilot-arc
[13:38:02] <anonimasu> yep
[13:38:20] <anonimasu> you can use a tig like that if you want also..
[13:38:52] <alex_joni> a microplasma is actually a tig with plasma gas around it
[13:38:57] <alex_joni> you have 2 gases
[13:39:03] <alex_joni> one inside (for the plasma)
[13:39:13] <alex_joni> and one for shielding (like for tig)
[13:40:37] <anonimasu> ok
[13:41:11] <alex_joni> http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/jk7.html
[13:43:27] <anonimasu> nice
[13:46:53] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has trouble about a sensor
[13:47:26] <anonimasu> hold on need to run for a bit
[13:51:58] <alex_joni> ok
[14:05:45] <anonimasu> iab
[14:06:48] <anonimasu> it solved itself
[14:08:49] <alex_joni> hihi... generally I'm scheptic to such solutions ;)
[14:09:37] <anonimasu> lol
[14:09:58] <anonimasu> it was about zeroing the sensor..
[14:10:09] <alex_joni> I see... well then ;)
[14:10:44] <anonimasu> I had a talk to my father, about it.. the issue solves itself because the speed of the huydralics will be enough..
[14:11:03] <anonimasu> to get to a position where the sensor isnt in use..
[14:11:54] <anonimasu> otherwise you might lock the machine up by waiting for a signal you dont get.. unless I code in a timeout while in motion.. but I'd rather not do that since its not use friendly..
[14:12:10] <anonimasu> or well I might do it anyway..
[14:12:19] <anonimasu> although not user configurable..
[14:13:14] <alex_joni> * alex_joni likes undocumented features :D
[14:13:35] <anonimasu> they will be documented..
[14:13:51] <anonimasu> but not in the user manuall ;)
[14:13:53] <anonimasu> manual.
[14:13:53] <alex_joni> :P
[14:13:57] <anonimasu> the techie one..
[14:14:35] <anonimasu> * anonimasu hates things users can set..
[14:14:38] <anonimasu> sensors are better :9
[14:15:04] <anonimasu> having sensors instead of times for functions are much more efficient..
[14:15:20] <alex_joni> but it also increases the cost
[14:16:08] <anonimasu> the cost isnt compareable to the increase in speed the customer sees..
[14:16:17] <anonimasu> or well overall effiency..
[14:16:31] <alex_joni> well then.. go for it ;)
[14:16:50] <anonimasu> this thing has to go up/down/do its stuff 2000 times per hectar..
[14:17:12] <alex_joni> a lot of trees :D
[14:17:15] <anonimasu> yeah..
[14:17:28] <anonimasu> at 2kmh you need to do about one every 1,8sec..
[14:18:00] <anonimasu> which I can do easily, but even 0,5s adds spacing to them..
[14:18:33] <alex_joni> yeah
[14:19:09] <anonimasu> it's somthing like 5000/600
[14:19:12] <anonimasu> m
[14:19:17] <anonimasu> per sec at 5kmh
[14:19:18] <anonimasu> ;)
[14:19:34] <anonimasu> err wrong..
[14:19:38] <anonimasu> but maybe 0.8m..
[14:20:03] <anonimasu> somwhere around that :9
[14:20:10] <anonimasu> so every delay is lots..
[14:20:17] <anonimasu> the work is inspected aswell.. :)
[14:21:34] <anonimasu> they check while they run so they have a certain number of "good" spots..
[14:21:48] <anonimasu> in a area of 10x10
[14:21:51] <anonimasu> m
[14:21:58] <anonimasu> every once in a while..
[14:25:09] <anonimasu> ^_^
[14:49:52] <anonimasu> time go head home
[14:50:08] <alex_joni> c u
[14:50:37] <anonimasu> yeah
[14:50:40] <anonimasu> laters :)
[14:50:46] <anonimasu> I'll see if I get the mill running later
[15:30:26] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is gone
[19:31:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni waves
[19:50:52] <alex_joni> no one around?
[19:51:15] <cradek> nope
[19:51:21] <jepler> I've got the channel open but I'm trying to work...
[19:51:47] <alex_joni> don't be scared .. no more NML from me ;)
[19:52:10] <alex_joni> anything new?
[19:52:28] <cradek> yeah, jepler's trying to work
[19:52:50] <cradek> * cradek laughs internally at his clever little joke
[19:52:55] <alex_joni> * alex_joni notes that in his calendar
[19:53:36] <cradek> tracking a UPS package repeatedly should make it come faster
[19:53:47] <alex_joni> really?
[19:53:56] <cradek> well, if I ruled the world it would.
[19:53:58] <alex_joni> in my experience it came slower :D
[19:54:07] <cradek> that's true.
[19:54:14] <alex_joni> UPS is pretty ok...
[19:54:19] <alex_joni> I really hate FedEx
[19:54:28] <alex_joni> at least the romanian office...
[19:54:36] <cradek> around here I think UPS destroys more stuff.
[19:54:41] <alex_joni> I had an urgent shipment (express or how it's called)
[19:54:46] <cradek> I would never ship anything remotely fragile with them.
[19:54:54] <alex_joni> and fedex got it to romania in a day,
[19:55:03] <alex_joni> and I received the package after 5 more days :(
[19:55:14] <cradek> I'd rather have late than destroyed
[19:55:23] <alex_joni> now that's what I call a "good" service
[19:55:33] <alex_joni> destoyed = bad packaging ;)
[19:55:37] <cradek> stuck in customs or something?
[19:55:53] <alex_joni> yeah.. and no interest
[19:55:57] <cradek> I agree - bad packaging is usually, but not always the cause.
[19:56:11] <alex_joni> they sent us a telegrame we should send them some papers
[19:56:25] <alex_joni> and that telegramme was sent by post, and we got it 3 days later
[19:56:26] <alex_joni> :(
[19:56:35] <cradek> huh
[19:56:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni thinks they never heard of phones, or emails
[19:56:47] <cradek> sometimes overseas shipping just sucks.
[19:56:53] <cradek> I've had good luck with DHL for that
[19:57:06] <cradek> but I haven't done it much.
[19:57:10] <alex_joni> well.. I don't really know
[19:57:18] <alex_joni> sometimes they get stuff very fast
[19:57:28] <alex_joni> sometimes it takes ages
[19:57:28] <alex_joni> :)
[19:57:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni found a nicely built machine: http://hacocanada.com/plasma.html
[19:57:48] <cradek> so are you going to hook up SPINDLE_FORWARD next?
[19:58:14] <alex_joni> spindle is a little bit more peculiar
[19:58:18] <alex_joni> I gotta read some about it
[19:58:26] <cradek> fume extraction is guaranteed through selective opening of the chambers, pneumatically controlled by the position of the gantry.
[19:58:29] <cradek> wow, cool
[19:58:34] <alex_joni> it has also the analog control that should be available
[19:58:46] <alex_joni> * alex_joni likes AC-servos and rack&pinion drive
[19:58:53] <cradek> yeah, I'm about to hack that into my system
[19:59:00] <alex_joni> if they weren't so darn expensive...
[19:59:05] <alex_joni> what? AC drives?
[19:59:10] <cradek> no, spindle speed control
[19:59:17] <alex_joni> oh.. coo
[19:59:26] <alex_joni> I could add it to emc2 ;)
[19:59:35] <cradek> hack out the analog output crap, hack in rs232 serial or bit-banged serial over a couple parallel lines, haven't decided yet
[20:00:08] <alex_joni> your spindle controller uses serial?
[20:00:16] <cradek> don't know yet, I haven't built it
[20:00:25] <alex_joni> coo ;)
[20:00:29] <cradek> but it seems like one obvious way to do it
[20:00:31] <alex_joni> this is the best time..
[20:00:44] <cradek> or, usb, hmmmm
[20:00:55] <alex_joni> nah... usb is... weird ;)
[20:01:14] <cradek> it would definitely be easier to talk rs232
[20:01:25] <alex_joni> yeah...
[20:01:27] <cradek> but my machine may only have one serial port
[20:01:32] <alex_joni> on both sides
[20:01:39] <cradek> I would hate to use it up, even though I could always put in another one
[20:01:50] <alex_joni> usb/serial conv ;)
[20:01:58] <jepler> you can do whatever you like with m101, right?
[20:02:02] <cradek> jepler and I have done usb<->AVR microcontroller
[20:02:04] <alex_joni> I got one for my laptop ;)
[20:02:05] <cradek> jepler: yep
[20:02:16] <jepler> well, we copied someone else's usb<>avr controller
[20:02:20] <alex_joni> usb<->avr?
[20:02:23] <alex_joni> :D
[20:02:32] <jepler> avr are neat little microcontrollers
[20:02:33] <alex_joni> what chip did you use?
[20:02:38] <cradek> 90s2313
[20:02:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[20:02:42] <jepler> at90s2313
[20:02:44] <alex_joni> master?
[20:02:50] <cradek> brb
[20:02:51] <jepler> no, low-speed slave
[20:02:56] <alex_joni> oh.. ok
[20:03:15] <alex_joni> there is a ATMega128 schematic with USB-master
[20:03:19] <alex_joni> but no SW yet
[20:03:23] <jepler> it's very slow and simple, but you can basically hook it right to the USB bus with only a 1.5k resistor
[20:03:33] <jepler> this is all software, you bit-bang at 1.5mbps
[20:03:41] <alex_joni> imagine a web-cam hooked up to a ATMega running Ethernut (web-server)
[20:04:10] <jepler> I got a little ethernet board but failed to get it running on atmega16
[20:04:20] <jepler> then I lost interest
[20:04:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has done a few ATMega128 + RTL8029
[20:06:46] <alex_joni> make that RTL8019AS ;)
[20:09:53] <alex_joni> something very nice: http://www.ispf.de/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5
[20:17:34] <jepler> "nicht fertig" = unfinished?
[20:17:45] <cradek> what you get for <= EUR10?
[20:17:54] <cradek> err, what DO you get
[20:18:02] <jepler> the circuit board?
[20:18:02] <jepler> "Prospective price pro plate"
[20:18:09] <alex_joni> the PCB
[20:18:19] <alex_joni> without components
[20:18:36] <alex_joni> the guy started the project to get other people involved, to split the PCB costs
[20:19:34] <cradek> interesting but WAY more complex than anything I would want
[20:19:40] <alex_joni> good evening paul_c
[20:19:46] <alex_joni> welcome back ;-)
[20:19:52] <paul_c> Evening all.
[20:19:57] <cradek> hello
[20:20:00] <alex_joni> cradek: you don't have to mount everything on the board
[20:20:02] <jepler> yeah, it looks like it does everything
[20:20:23] <cradek> paul_c: I've been meaning to bug you about CVS. Could you put a tag like BDI_4_08 when you make a release? It would help me do support.
[20:20:44] <cradek> for instance, it would be great to have a tag that shows what les is running
[20:20:52] <cradek> and I ran into another instance helping rayh the other day
[20:20:55] <jepler> I would like a board with a big atmega and external sram, usb-serial or level converter .. but I don't need ethernet, CPLD, CAN, etc...
[20:21:29] <alex_joni> jepler: any news on the ATMega256 ?
[20:21:52] <cradek> * cradek has never needed/used anything over mega32
[20:21:57] <alex_joni> I heard a few rumors that they wanna release it...
[20:22:14] <jepler> nope .. I don't pay too much attention
[20:22:37] <alex_joni> that will be a nice micro (256k flash)
[20:22:40] <jepler> I have mostly done small tasks anyway, the only projects I've finished were 2313
[20:23:01] <cradek> the 2313 is great because of the price, but it's pretty easy to fill up 2k
[20:23:33] <alex_joni> I like to use ethernut (threads, http, ppp, etc.)
[20:23:36] <cradek> * cradek got dozens of 2313 for $1 each
[20:24:04] <alex_joni> what's a 2313?
[20:24:07] <cradek> made one project that used two of them communicating over serial
[20:24:17] <cradek> at90s2313 - DIP, 2k program space
[20:24:27] <paul_c> cradek: Most of the BDI-4.xx code is in the emc2 tree...
[20:24:28] <alex_joni> what core?
[20:24:52] <alex_joni> I used some AT90C2051 & 4051
[20:24:54] <cradek> paul_c: that doesn't matter to me as long as it has tags
[20:26:45] <jepler> alex_joni: avr without multiply or spm
[20:27:03] <alex_joni> with gcc?
[20:28:20] <jepler> yeah
[20:28:43] <alex_joni> cool thing.. gotta look into that .. thanks for the tip
[20:56:21] <alex_joni> you guys have any ideas about spindle control?
[20:57:06] <alex_joni> I think spindle-forward, spindle-backward, spindle-speed (outputs to HAL)
[20:57:22] <alex_joni> and some feedback from HAL (spindle-measured_speed maybe)
[20:58:27] <cradek> no idea how spindle speed is supposed to work
[20:58:43] <cradek> does anyone use it? I don't think even bridgeportio supports it
[20:58:55] <alex_joni> I think it should be done so that any type can be used
[20:59:08] <alex_joni> once in HAL you cand hook whatever to the signal
[20:59:15] <alex_joni> DAC, serial output
[21:25:05] <alex_joni> anyways... I'm going to bed
[21:25:09] <alex_joni> night guys
[22:01:37] <gezr> howdy ya'll
[22:07:41] <paul_c> Evening gezr
[22:09:19] <gezr> paul_c : I was thinking you had left on some sort of trip or something, good seeing you :)
[22:09:43] <paul_c> Had to do some work over at Lil' Sis'
[22:09:54] <gezr> ah, thats right, hope that went well
[22:10:22] <paul_c> I hate flat-pack kitchens.
[22:20:38] <ottos> good day gents and congrats to all that helped in compiling BDi 4.0x. nice work keep it up.
[22:21:11] <paul_c> issa pile of poo - I've got bug reports galore to fix.
[22:21:39] <ottos> still effort that counts...:D
[22:22:51] <ottos> paul any suggestion on rotary axis home switch..?
[22:23:26] <paul_c> Use the index marker on an encoder
[22:31:16] <ottos> thanx..gotta go later..
[22:40:17] <slomo> is stuck,lost and doesn't know which way to turn :)
[22:47:05] <les> hello all
[22:47:31] <slomo> needs a df steer
[22:47:41] <les> anyone know if emc/stg uses the watchdog function?
[22:47:51] <les> df steer ha remember that
[22:48:20] <les> not offered in the lower 48 much anymore
[22:48:34] <gezr> ?
[22:48:39] <gezr> howdy les
[22:49:04] <les> lost airplanes used to be able to request a directional finder steer
[22:49:08] <les> howdy
[22:49:23] <slomo> and i'm lost !!!
[22:49:30] <les> haha
[22:50:09] <les> I am just continuing my quest to not stare at the machine while it's running waiting for something bad to happen
[22:50:26] <les> a watchdog timer would help
[22:50:38] <les> the stg has this I think
[22:50:47] <les> not so sure emc uses it though
[22:50:52] <gezr> the stg has one
[22:50:56] <paul_c> The watchdog time on the STG card is not used.
[22:50:59] <gezr> not sure if its coded into the software
[22:51:06] <slomo> and i continue to stare at it, waiting for the RIGHT thing to happen
[22:51:43] <les> paul: not such a big deal to implement it I would think
[22:52:07] <les> it would make my life a bit stressful
[22:52:38] <les> a couple reads and writes in newstg.c?
[22:52:40] <paul_c> 'pends what you want to happen should the w/d timer time out...
[22:52:50] <les> just estop
[22:53:18] <les> would have to be a hardware estop from the stg
[22:53:22] <paul_c> A system reset, halt EMC, or trigger E-Stop yet still leave the RT code running.
[22:53:35] <gezr> oh and for the worry, I sorta worried, I had a 10inch dia part 146.5 inches long whirling around at 345rpm, and my doc was roughly .060" and the feed rate was a nice .028"/rev :)
[22:54:22] <les> yeah...but if newstg is realtime not resetting would indicate a computer problem
[22:54:57] <les> I would just like to do other work while the machine is running
[22:55:44] <les> at 32 hrs plus machine time a week it is getting old sitting there eyeing the big red button
[22:55:57] <les> REALLY old
[22:56:17] <les> It's like a stressful version of watching paint dry
[22:56:47] <les> Know what I mean?
[22:58:44] <les> I could look up the addresses of the watchdog function in the manual
[22:58:59] <gezr> les : what are you after?
[22:59:05] <les> where would the best place be to code it?
[22:59:10] <gezr> I mean, what is you intended goal?
[22:59:53] <les> gezer: goal is not to have a body monitoring the machine...to have enough confidence to leave it running semi-unattended
[22:59:54] <paul_c> Using a watchdog timer is only of use to make sure the (for example) servo loop doesn't hang.
[23:00:27] <les> or the computer does not creash or fail
[23:00:36] <paul_c> right.
[23:00:51] <les> like a hd pooping out or any number of other hardware failures
[23:01:16] <les> emc and linux are solid...
[23:01:20] <gezr> right
[23:01:34] <paul_c> You would need to write an interrupt handler and set it with the highest priority
[23:01:43] <les> pushing 500 kg of iron around with and old pc is not...
[23:01:56] <paul_c> adjusting the servo loop priority to suit...
[23:01:57] <slomo> thanks
[23:02:09] <slomo> thanks
[23:02:14] <gezr> its your tooling thats in question, only thing I can suggest, is make a spring held switch, that rests againsts the tool, if the tool breaks, the spring pulls the switch to open, and the drives lose power
[23:02:19] <paul_c> then add a routine to kick the dog on each servo loop.
[23:02:37] <les> well real time code always has highest priority right?
[23:02:53] <paul_c> higher than linux.
[23:02:58] <gezr> you cannot preempt a crash, only minimize what happens after it
[23:03:02] <les> Is newstg.c all written in RT kernal space?
[23:03:09] <paul_c> but you can set the priorties of the RT code too.
[23:03:14] <les> Gezer: right
[23:03:27] <les> Paul: oh
[23:04:03] <les> does the vital card have a watchdog as well?
[23:04:15] <paul_c> I think it does.
[23:04:19] <gezr> les : im very fast at detecting tooling changes such as sound, chip type, and react quicly to them, but Ive never stopped anying once that ball started rolling, only did what I could do to shut things down afterwards
[23:05:52] <les> Gezr: I was thinking about a separate program that learns the history of servo currents vs time in a peoduction program and estops if anything extraordinary happens
[23:06:01] <les> but
[23:06:18] <gezr> they have vibro type broken tool detectors yeah, you could have that
[23:06:37] <les> just setting ferror estop close and a watchdog would do the same thing right?
[23:06:52] <gezr> yes
[23:06:56] <les> watchdog because...
[23:07:10] <gezr> you want to let the control know there is a falut
[23:07:19] <les> the computer has to be working for ferror estop to work
[23:07:39] <gezr> if the computer fails, stg should fail as well
[23:07:52] <gezr> it shouldnt go into an auto pilot
[23:07:53] <les> perhaps...perhaps not
[23:08:11] <gezr> and oh my, a homming routine, used by seimens is plc baised
[23:08:26] <les> gezr: servos tend to run away in a fault
[23:08:38] <gezr> during power on, the machine can be homed long before the computer is up and running
[23:08:49] <gezr> I just though of that, had to share
[23:09:03] <gezr> les : that shouldnt be allowed
[23:09:37] <les> Well agreed something separate from the control comuter needs to check for faults
[23:09:52] <les> My little circuit does that some
[23:10:28] <les> The onre that calculates inertia, friction, and cutting forces
[23:10:32] <gezr> okay, on some machines, during an estop condition, the servos may still have enough stored power to continue some motion, and the machine may not even set a spindle break on
[23:10:33] <les> one
[23:11:09] <les> But I think a tight ferror estop and a watchdog would be about as good
[23:11:11] <gezr> but basically stop all plc function and power down drives
[23:11:39] <gezr> les : yes, ferror to show heavy tool wear, catastrophic failure will not be detected
[23:11:41] <les> The only thing not covered is a partial stg failure while the computer still runs
[23:12:28] <les> Gezr: emc ferror estop has saved the machine several times in nasty crashes
[23:12:52] <les> like the collet failure
[23:13:09] <gezr> les: emc needs to have a seperate pluse running to stg, to its watchdog, I think, and one headed the other way, if one detectes fault then it is halted, like if emc doenst gets its incomming train emc stops, if stg doesnt get its train then stg stops sending further on, right?
[23:13:09] <les> ferror estop shut the machine down
[23:13:32] <les> right
[23:13:37] <gezr> les : but some damage had occured because of the instant event
[23:14:21] <les> I think I will hunt up the watchdog on stg and ask abdul about that function on the motenc
[23:14:35] <gezr> its that instant event that cannont be predicted, an ferror would notice the drive using more power then it would to perform (this) task, but a tool could break without (that) event happening
[23:14:47] <les> and see if we can get something implemented
[23:15:16] <les> Gezer: true and instantaneous event cannot be predicted
[23:15:44] <les> But I'm here to tell you it stops pretty fast
[23:16:01] <gezr> les : what I had to do on many jobs was reguardless of tools condition, replace the tool, it got expensive on many jobs, but it was the only way to run the stuff, without losing lots of stuff
[23:16:15] <gezr> yeah, I know it stops quickly :)
[23:16:41] <les> Like when it tried to push a slipping bit into cherry with 2000 lb force
[23:16:55] <les> it stopped QUICK
[23:17:06] <gezr> im not trying to be discouring, just being honest, as are you, I want the same results you are after :)
[23:17:14] <les> did not break the bit
[23:17:29] <gezr> sensed the increased load though :)
[23:17:42] <les> I just want to stop having to sit at the machine 32 hrs a week
[23:17:56] <les> It's driving me nuts
[23:18:09] <gezr> les : is there any predictable event you have noticed?
[23:18:26] <les> heh... yeah...
[23:18:48] <gezr> the bits slides out what if you put a collar on the bit, so that once it started to slide, the colar would increase that load?
[23:19:03] <gezr> or tie in a ferror type alarm of some sort to the spindle motor?
[23:19:11] <les> I run the machine...my workers sand and finish the resultant product...and we all get ok paychecks
[23:19:24] <gezr> thats what I hate the most about the machine im on, its the first machine ive ran without a load meter
[23:19:40] <gezr> just an analog meter connected to the spindle
[23:19:51] <les> Gezer: my little circuit does that
[23:20:04] <gezr> les : do you have a visual result you could look at?
[23:20:21] <les> ?
[23:20:30] <les> good parts?
[23:20:36] <gezr> oh yeah, this will help you think about things tommrow
[23:20:41] <gezr> no motors load
[23:21:13] <les> well I run up to 5.6 kVA on the servos
[23:21:16] <gezr> do you have an a/c current meter you could use to monitor the spindle motor?
[23:21:31] <les> but most of that is for accelerating the inertia
[23:21:57] <gezr> you will see changes in the spindles current, long before you see it in a servos
[23:22:14] <les> sure... a shunt
[23:22:18] <gezr> are you following me?
[23:22:25] <les> yes
[23:22:56] <gezr> I think if you could watch a run, with a tool in its midlife, and monitor the spindles "load" you will see it slightly increase with each part
[23:22:58] <les> My little citcuit stops things if spindle rpm drops below a certain point
[23:23:11] <gezr> oh okay
[23:23:31] <les> Gezr: Ferror will show this too
[23:23:54] <gezr> with what im talking about, you would be able to set a break point in which tool failure could be expected or predicted
[23:24:27] <gezr> a motor will take more current before a rpm decrease would happen right?
[23:24:50] <les> lower rpm under load=more current
[23:24:54] <les> instantly
[23:25:08] <gezr> and your circuit would detect that right?
[23:25:22] <les> yup
[23:25:59] <les> I had to have two more cutters airmailed out for the hollowing out part
[23:26:07] <les> most power required there
[23:26:20] <les> just to get an idea...
[23:26:27] <gezr> with an analog meter you could see changes that your circuit may not be able to catch, it catches the event you want it to catch, but if you had a way to see a change before that "triger" condition existed, you would be able to say, something is wrong
[23:26:35] <les> generated 200 lbs of chips just this week
[23:27:13] <les> Gezr: My circuit IS analog...and reacts in microseconds
[23:27:48] <gezr> with a little needle?
[23:28:05] <les> but a watchdog would just be a further safety
[23:28:13] <gezr> oh yeah
[23:28:51] <les> Gezr: No, it uses High speed analog op amps to solve the second order diff equation of motions
[23:29:14] <les> then gives a digital signal if something is wrong
[23:30:06] <gezr> thats on the spindle?
[23:30:48] <les> and servos
[23:31:23] <les> monitors spindle rpm and all servo speeds and currents
[23:31:44] <les> but it is experimental
[23:31:56] <les> not hooked up permanently
[23:32:08] <les> seems to work experimentally
[23:32:29] <les> but I am in full production and cannot experiment much
[23:32:50] <les> but a watchdog might be very easy and quick to throw in
[23:33:05] <gezr> can you add a plain ole bouncing needle amp meter to your spindle to see if you can as a human detect something ?
[23:33:49] <les> It kinda is that...if the "needle" bounces too much hardware shuts down
[23:34:41] <gezr> okay, what if a human saw the needle a bit further to the right compared to how it was on the previous set of parts, the human may think the tool has a bit of wear on it, and it might need changing
[23:34:53] <les> The idea is to not have to sit there monitoring tha machine all the time
[23:35:14] <les> not a big deal with occasional use
[23:35:22] <les> but 32 hrs a week!!!
[23:35:33] <les> drivin me nuts
[23:37:09] <gezr> im just talking about a way to guage where things are, or state, so you can more readly predict at how many parts your tool is too worn out to safely procede
[23:37:39] <les> that's easy enough
[23:37:45] <gezr> so you could say walk away for 2 hours, and then check, and then 2 more later, come back and change the bit
[23:38:01] <les> a tight ferror spec does that pretty well
[23:38:11] <gezr> im not giving a soulution to the over all issue, but a method in which you or anyone could notice that the needle has passed the "red line"
[23:38:12] <les> tool wear= higher forces
[23:38:19] <gezr> exactly
[23:38:22] <les> higher forces=more ferror
[23:38:34] <les> always
[23:38:46] <gezr> ive just never seen ferror on a spindle
[23:38:55] <gezr> so thats probably what im missing
[23:39:08] <les> on the servos rather than the spindle
[23:39:31] <gezr> that point may already be too far
[23:39:46] <les> they will have more ferror if they have to push harder
[23:40:06] <gezr> and the motor will have a increasing factor of its load
[23:40:34] <gezr> right?
[23:40:55] <les> well ferror is not the perfect safeguard...but I have no time to install my little circuit
[23:41:07] <les> the little circuit monitors all that
[23:41:23] <gezr> then monitor the spindles current load visually
[23:41:31] <les> but with a watchdog ferror is almost as good
[23:41:39] <les> and I can do it quick
[23:41:54] <les> a few lines of code and a recompile
[23:41:55] <gezr> just as long as you have to to be able to predict an event
[23:42:27] <les> It cannot predict...but it can react fast
[23:42:49] <gezr> yeah, Im aware of that
[23:42:52] <les> There are some issues if one uses a lot of Integral gain and feedforward
[23:43:22] <gezr> all im talking about is a way for you or someone else to visually see a change, if ever so slight
[23:43:34] <les> for now I would reduce those...
[23:43:36] <les> right
[23:43:58] <les> ferror can see a change that you cannot hear or otherwise notice
[23:43:59] <gezr> a case and point would be, you have a dull bit, and you start to catch parts on fire, you may notice you have a problem going on :)
[23:44:00] <les> but
[23:44:10] <les> the computer has to work
[23:44:30] <les> hence a watchdog to cover the computer failing
[23:44:58] <les> Yes...there is a real fire danger with this stuff
[23:44:59] <gezr> yeah, all im talking about is a way for a slight change to be noticed, the watchdog and ferror changes are necessary for a number of other reasons as well
[23:46:47] <les> A dull or slipping tool is the ultimate rubbing two sticks together...and the embers get ducked up in a big dust collector fanning the flames with 1200 cfm air flow and a couple hundred pounds of chips to light
[23:46:57] <les> sucked
[23:47:08] <gezr> I know you know that, and I also know you know a better way to go about it, ive just spent thousands of hours sitting in front of machines, and I learned to use senses to pick up on things, watching a meter, chip types and shape, sounds, and sometimes got lucky with a 5th sence and stopped things just in the nick of time. I dont like sitting in front of a machine either,
[23:47:08] <les> not ducked
[23:48:19] <les> Gezr: I will always have to be in the vicinity...but I just don't want to be cahined to the thing
[23:48:25] <gezr> what if you put a colar onthe tool, and if it pulled out a bit, it would break a contact made with a wire resting on the collors top and thus creating a estop or something issue
[23:48:26] <les> chained
[23:49:00] <les> I thought about breaking wire or foil and stuff
[23:49:05] <les> perhaps
[23:49:09] <gezr> just anything
[23:49:14] <les> details get complicated
[23:49:46] <gezr> im only presenting ideas, but I really think that a quick method to see to assist sounds may just be a simple amp meter
[23:50:09] <les> then I thought of hall effect sensor cepstrum analysis which I mentioned a few days ago
[23:50:12] <gezr> I know its not what your after
[23:50:36] <gezr> yeah, anything to sense a change that the machine may not be able to measure
[23:50:37] <les> but all of those I cannot do right now because of the production volume
[23:50:42] <les> catch 22 kinda
[23:50:52] <gezr> yeah
[23:51:07] <les> did spend the last 1,5 days doing lube /cleaning
[23:51:17] <les> must do that
[23:51:54] <les> repacked all ballnuts and linear slide trucks
[23:52:03] <les> washed the ballscrews
[23:52:08] <les> etc
[23:52:37] <gezr> I wish I had a solid solution to your problem
[23:52:50] <les> Well I have it
[23:52:59] <les> what I do not have is time
[23:53:29] <les> but just a watchdog would make me feel WAY better
[23:53:35] <les> that I can do
[23:53:46] <les> I'll hunt it up in the stg manual
[23:54:28] <les> You know gezr, after this extended run I want a vacation...
[23:54:41] <les> like ALL spring
[23:54:43] <gezr> hahahaha
[23:54:44] <les> heh
[23:55:09] <gezr> I get 2 weeks a year, already spent 1 day
[23:55:30] <les> I had a month at ITW
[23:55:42] <les> With my company not so much
[23:55:56] <les> If you own it you tend to never take off
[23:56:23] <gezr> you have a lot of things going on right now, and your experiencing some growing pains
[23:56:45] <les> But I want to fish and play golf for about 3 months after this bit
[23:56:47] <les> haha
[23:57:09] <gezr> that sounds like a plan
[23:57:26] <les> yeah beats this schedule:
[23:57:43] <les> triple turkey call production
[23:58:06] <les> ship 5 robotic testers to ITW for my encoder design
[23:58:08] <les> and
[23:58:30] <les> design a foam cutting machine for another manufacturer
[23:58:37] <les> when?
[23:58:44] <les> all NOW of course
[23:58:57] <les> argh
[23:59:08] <gezr> everyone eats an elephant the same way :)
[23:59:09] <les> oh well at least I'm working
[23:59:33] <les> haha
[23:59:45] <gezr> :)
[23:59:54] <les> well better go and prepare some dinner