#emc | Logs for 2004-12-28

[00:08:30] <les> hi robin
[00:08:31] <gezr> back
[00:09:19] <les> See my post on timing belt reduction robin?
[00:13:51] <robin_sz> oopsy
[00:14:02] <robin_sz> you were saying someting about belt reduction?
[00:14:22] <les> yeah check the cad cam list
[00:14:38] <robin_sz> ok
[00:14:42] <les> brb phone
[00:16:43] <gezr> okay, thats in emc1
[00:17:08] <les> right
[00:17:21] <gezr> ill have to view via cvs
[00:18:19] <robin_sz> ok, seen that
[00:18:52] <les> so there is an optimum
[00:19:55] <robin_sz> ummm ....
[00:20:06] <les> ?
[00:20:07] <robin_sz> I dont have the rest of his original desing criteria ...
[00:20:20] <robin_sz> speed, accel, gantry weight
[00:20:49] <les> 60 kg moving mass
[00:21:14] <les> 10 cm/s
[00:21:24] <les> .25g
[00:21:39] <robin_sz> 6m / min ?
[00:22:02] <les> well 4 ips
[00:22:40] <robin_sz> 100mm / second = 6000mm min = 6m min
[00:23:10] <robin_sz> so thats for a big 'heavy plate' sort of machine I guess
[00:24:09] <les> yeah... I used a 1.5mX 2.5 cm jackshaft in the analysis
[00:24:20] <robin_sz> suprised he need 0.25g
[00:24:20] <les> and .25g is plenty right?
[00:24:24] <robin_sz> loads
[00:25:03] <les> so about 5:1 seems most economical
[00:25:09] <les> and you are using?
[00:25:20] <robin_sz> well :)
[00:25:24] <les> haha
[00:25:24] <robin_sz> theres a thing
[00:25:47] <robin_sz> twice the size of pinion
[00:26:05] <les> I figured 2.5 cm pinion
[00:26:16] <robin_sz> im using a 60mm pinion
[00:26:22] <robin_sz> and a 20:1 box
[00:27:00] <robin_sz> I find it MUCH easier to think in terms of 'movement per rev'
[00:27:17] <les> so that would be....about 8:1 in terms of my analysis
[00:27:50] <les> also...your moving mass is less I think
[00:28:03] <les> and you are not requiring .25g
[00:28:07] <robin_sz> it is .. I could use a lower ratio box fo rsure
[00:28:50] <robin_sz> hmm
[00:28:54] <robin_sz> interesting calcs
[00:29:23] <les> .25g gives about 2.5 mm corner radius at cutting speed
[00:29:44] <robin_sz> but ...
[00:29:56] <les> yeah...if the ratio is too high the motor just fights it's own rotor inertia
[00:30:03] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[00:30:45] <les> reflected inertia= motor inertia*reduction ratio^2
[00:30:55] <les> catches up with you
[00:31:38] <robin_sz> so ... I find this a LOT easier to think of movement per rev
[00:32:23] <les> I just pumped ratios, moments, masses, etc into motioneering
[00:32:28] <robin_sz> you are suggesting about 15mm per rev I think .. right?
[00:32:52] <les> motor rev?
[00:32:57] <robin_sz> yep
[00:33:04] <les> hmm let's see
[00:33:37] <les> yup
[00:33:42] <les> about right
[00:34:20] <robin_sz> I think im on about 5mm per ... so basically I have way too much force, not enough zip
[00:34:50] <les> btw I used .1 oz in sec^2 for the reduction inertia
[00:35:12] <les> reasonable I think for a shaft and timing belt
[00:35:13] <robin_sz> ie low
[00:36:04] <robin_sz> I'll see if they will ship some lower ratio boxes on the next controllers then
[00:36:09] <les> well also...using steppers changes the economy equation a bit
[00:36:15] <robin_sz> yeah
[00:36:34] <les> do a run in that software...you have it right?
[00:36:42] <robin_sz> I do ... somewhere
[00:37:03] <robin_sz> and that ohter neat one ..
[00:37:04] <robin_sz> errm
[00:37:11] <robin_sz> beamboy is it?
[00:37:19] <les> yup
[00:37:26] <les> handy little thing
[00:37:30] <robin_sz> it is.
[00:38:32] <les> Had an uncle visit the shop...he is 19 and just took statics in school
[00:38:43] <les> he has to do it the old fashioned way
[00:38:52] <robin_sz> uncle at 19?
[00:38:57] <les> the uncle bit is another story...
[00:39:02] <les> half uncle
[00:39:04] <robin_sz> ok
[00:39:24] <les> he came by with his dad
[00:39:45] <les> his grandfather was my great grandfather
[00:40:02] <robin_sz> * robin_sz presses the 'too complicated' button
[00:40:08] <les> I'm not the only one known for robin' the cradle haha
[00:40:15] <robin_sz> heh
[00:40:42] <robin_sz> interesting calcs though ...
[00:41:09] <les> When I was married to that moonshiner's daughter here for a little while one time some witnesses came calling
[00:41:27] <les> she answered and they asked if her dad was home
[00:41:35] <robin_sz> haw
[00:41:52] <les> yeah the calcs are telling
[00:42:25] <les> but makes sense
[00:42:42] <gezr> the math is right and the error generated is correct -.00413715
[00:42:45] <robin_sz> I just took 75% of max motor revs and geared to do that at G0 speed (15m/min)
[00:42:59] <les> at some point direct drive becomes too $$$ from underutilising power
[00:43:22] <les> and that square term gets you at some point with gearing
[00:43:22] <robin_sz> yep
[00:43:26] <robin_sz> yep also
[00:43:39] <les> so something somewhere in the middle has to be optimum
[00:43:55] <robin_sz> and about 15mm/rev seems to be it
[00:44:06] <les> for that size machine yes
[00:44:13] <robin_sz> for a 60kg gantry and 0.25g
[00:44:15] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[00:44:20] <les> right
[00:44:34] <les> and if I didn't screw up anything
[00:44:39] <robin_sz> heh
[00:46:00] <les> gezr: sorry...which error is that?
[00:46:00] <robin_sz> * robin_sz adds "try some lower ratios" to his to-do list
[00:46:05] <les> haha
[00:46:21] <gezr> jepler are you still around?
[00:46:32] <gezr> les the motion error
[00:46:37] <les> ok
[00:46:41] <gezr> it is in fact a negative value
[00:46:58] <gezr> the output from the error when plugged into the code results negative
[00:47:19] <gezr> but It didnt for the first how ever many loops existed
[00:47:31] <les> hmmm
[00:47:34] <gezr> so a debugging string would be needed for me this time around
[00:47:50] <gezr> where at each pass at the motion, the hold up
[00:48:08] <gezr> sqDumpQueue(sq); is logged
[00:48:28] <gezr> would probably also need to see 2 more vars
[00:48:51] <gezr> make that 3
[00:48:53] <gezr> diagnostics("plInitInc = %e plFinalInc = %e\n", s->plInitInc,
[00:48:54] <les> as you saw I found only one line in sqplansegment() that could go negative
[00:48:55] <gezr> s->plFinalInc);
[00:49:17] <gezr> yeah it can go negative, why it doesnt every time on that program boggles my mind
[00:49:48] <gezr> if the exact same g code goes in then plInitInc, plFinalInc and tl should always be the same
[00:49:49] <les> yeah...but it's repeatable and there has to be a pattern
[00:50:29] <les> need to find multiple motions that cause it and see wht's in common
[00:50:31] <gezr> the patter would be found by dumping the same info that the error generates without an error, as in a debug line
[00:50:50] <les> hmm
[00:51:04] <gezr> the log would be or should be, everything the same, and then the error
[00:51:15] <les> I see
[00:51:26] <gezr> every time the program loops m2, all the numbers should match
[00:51:53] <gezr> if they do not match, then something within that code could be to blame, if they do match, then something external is causing a data failure
[00:52:13] <les> sounds good
[00:52:56] <les> you know, the bad original planner is the only thing that keeps emc from being a state of the art system
[00:53:24] <les> it's kind of like a ferrari witha rubber band motor...
[00:53:43] <gezr> it could be as much as something, I dont know how to add debugging code, to print to a file, or what not, nor do I have an active rt system available, but im betting its either in the kernel, or an external math section, something is causing a data malfunction in the stream to length <0
[00:54:16] <les> fprintf()
[00:54:21] <gezr> if I was a betting man ide say a float
[00:54:36] <les> but I'm no programmer heheh...just a poor aero engineer
[00:55:00] <gezr> all the numbers are in xxxxxxx format, then all of a sudden xxxxxxx^-e3 pop up and err
[00:55:22] <les> hmm
[00:55:22] <gezr> its using doubles for the numbers too
[00:55:47] <gezr> tl is a simple enough number, its all the formating to make it all look xxxxxx vomit
[00:56:08] <gezr> why use a decimal in one instance, then not in another
[00:56:35] <gezr> I dont know if it matters, but were talking about 2000 or more #s a sec, anything could go wrong, a single bite and it could go negative
[00:56:48] <les> I have a hunch it is just bad math somewhere
[00:56:59] <les> but who knows
[00:57:10] <gezr> yeah but if that was the case, then it would happen the moment the first run takes place
[00:57:29] <les> whoever finds it will be the big hero in my eyes...
[00:57:37] <gezr> in jepler's example, he was able to loop through it for quite some time
[00:57:43] <les> this problem actually costs me money
[00:57:46] <gezr> then it would eject the exact same error
[00:58:07] <les> after several loops?
[00:58:09] <gezr> yes
[00:58:12] <les> oh
[00:58:17] <gezr> he was running it over and over again
[00:58:27] <gezr> then all of a sudden it would stop, and spit that error out
[00:58:31] <les> damn
[00:58:43] <robin_sz> * robin_sz hands out some global variables
[00:59:01] <les> ha we have plenty thanks
[00:59:30] <les> perhaps something needs to be clamped somewhere
[00:59:40] <robin_sz> errm.
[00:59:56] <robin_sz> isnt that a bit like ermm
[01:00:01] <robin_sz> bodging?
[01:00:04] <gezr> the error, say, that one was to change that to length == 0 instead of is less then, just to see, and the stream output was printed like Im thinking, then one would expect to see the error in different times(during the m2 loop) while the remaining output looks the same
[01:00:36] <les> robin: yeah
[01:01:15] <les> there are a lot of length==0 tests in there I saw
[01:01:43] <robin_sz> sounds liek a fundamental desing problem
[01:01:54] <robin_sz> if your testing for the same ting more than once ...
[01:02:21] <robin_sz> well,
[01:02:27] <gezr> why would a negative length matter anyway?
[01:02:32] <robin_sz> quite
[01:02:46] <robin_sz> a good algoritm is continuous
[01:02:52] <gezr> thats true
[01:03:04] <gezr> look at these numbers
[01:03:12] <les> the code seems to just be written for positive length values
[01:03:19] <gezr> tl=.004136
[01:03:19] <gezr> plInitInc=.004136575
[01:03:20] <robin_sz> when you have to start putting tests in for edge cases, its probably better to think about your methods
[01:03:21] <gezr> plFinalInc=0.000000
[01:04:09] <gezr> the math 2*plInitInc first
[01:04:16] <robin_sz> I guess +ve lenghts and angles makes sense in polar
[01:04:26] <robin_sz> in caretesian, -ve legths makes sense
[01:05:08] <les> yeah, just coding style. Negative lengths are fine otherwise
[01:05:26] <gezr> but the value as printed from the output is 4.136575e-03 for plInitInc, I realize the computer doesnt care how a number is formated, so humm,
[01:05:39] <robin_sz> well ...
[01:05:43] <les> He is doing roots for magnitudes and it has to be + probably
[01:06:13] <robin_sz> "formatted" ... can be an indication of casting between longs, floats, etc
[01:06:21] <gezr> isnt 2*4.1xxxxxxe-03 gonna be 8.xxxxxe-03 anway?
[01:06:23] <les> now negative MASS is a problem haha
[01:06:23] <robin_sz> are these in printf's
[01:06:49] <les> gezr: yeah I think
[01:07:09] <robin_sz> anyway
[01:07:16] <robin_sz> bedtime here ...
[01:07:22] <robin_sz> see you all later
[01:09:06] <gezr> les : I honestly think what is happening is a number from hell is popping up causing the negative condition to exist
[01:09:21] <gezr> and the 2* isnt helping the issue
[01:09:52] <les> heh...it is a mystery
[01:10:02] <les> when NIST can't find it
[01:10:15] <gezr> I dont think its there code
[01:10:18] <gezr> their
[01:10:25] <les> but they cannot put much time in
[01:10:54] <les> you might be right
[01:11:32] <gezr> its the only thing that can happen, you said you had the error occour on large programs
[01:11:57] <gezr> how can negative length be generated by a forward or positive motion, unless a mistake in the data stream occours
[01:12:45] <les> there are so many global functions and variables that it is very hard to follow everything
[01:13:45] <les> if you are right an if and a clamp to positive might be in order
[01:13:55] <les> test for garbage data
[01:14:02] <gezr> you know what
[01:14:05] <gezr> hahaha
[01:14:11] <les> and default to some band-aid thing
[01:14:12] <gezr> what if this
[01:14:23] <les> not very eloquent
[01:14:29] <les> but might work
[01:15:07] <gezr> say something has the same varable, and happens to land in memory at the exact same time, and at that instance that file, reads that value, does the math and the negative number is spit out and lenth is less then zero
[01:15:28] <les> and?
[01:16:05] <gezr> that would cause the error
[01:16:34] <gezr> but it should protect is memory for the data
[01:16:40] <les> seems unlikely but possible I guess
[01:18:00] <gezr> maybe jepler can add in a debugging dump for us
[01:18:16] <gezr> accually you know what
[01:18:26] <gezr> lets say that the numbers never changed
[01:18:35] <les> well I am just thrilled that people will look into this
[01:18:56] <les> btw...you name and location?
[01:19:05] <gezr> what was output in the error was the same as it was always, and the error finally hit, because the math should always enter a negative state
[01:19:18] <gezr> Phillip Smith in central Arkansas
[01:19:36] <gezr> im serious, the math should always be negative
[01:19:39] <les> oh ok ...Les in NE georgia
[01:19:49] <gezr> I sent you a copy of bdi live once :)
[01:20:03] <les> ah ok!
[01:20:13] <gezr> ive been taking a break since then
[01:20:26] <gezr> I need to find out what or where plInitInc is
[01:20:59] <les> I was pondering that
[01:21:02] <gezr> cause anytime that number has more digits in it then tl aka total length, its going to error
[01:21:37] <gezr> im going to have to check out emc1
[01:21:45] <gezr> cause I need the power of grep
[01:22:13] <les> Well, as a background I had the authors here for a while looking at it
[01:22:34] <les> They realised that the emc tp was badly flawed
[01:22:53] <les> but lost funding before it was fixed I guess
[01:22:53] <gezr> tp?
[01:23:02] <les> trajectory planner
[01:23:04] <gezr> oh
[01:23:05] <les> =tp
[01:23:16] <gezr> yeah I remember that, that was right uup before my mom passes
[01:23:19] <gezr> passed that is
[01:23:58] <les> so Fred came down from Maryland and Rogier Blom came over from Holland
[01:24:15] <les> Rogier wrote segmentqueue
[01:24:31] <les> Fred wrote emc
[01:24:38] <gezr> and you guys could not find what was causing the random stopage
[01:24:41] <gezr> right?
[01:25:08] <les> We found other problems and fixed them...but only had a couple days
[01:25:39] <gezr> can only work on one bug at a time
[01:25:43] <gezr> this one is a biggen
[01:25:59] <les> before it would go into a loop and thrash the disk drive
[01:26:30] <les> well it's the difference between emc being state of the art or crippled
[01:26:54] <gezr> well, smoth motion means a lot to me
[01:27:18] <gezr> its just sexy to see something gliding
[01:27:21] <les> me too...I make my living from emc run machines
[01:27:57] <gezr> I know, so we get it fixed :)
[01:28:04] <les> cool
[01:28:06] <gezr> lots of talk from time to time about jerking
[01:28:11] <gezr> in the email
[01:28:11] <les> yes
[01:28:49] <les> well better go prepare a bit late dinner
[01:29:13] <les> talk later!
[01:30:46] <gezr> sure thing
[01:30:50] <gezr> maybe Ill find something
[01:32:23] <gezr> hey hold up
[01:32:41] <gezr> when you were running your program with segment were you also looping a program?
[01:33:38] <les> no...I was not
[01:33:50] <gezr> okay
[01:35:14] <les> laters!
[02:04:56] <gezr> hmm
[02:09:25] <gezr> pi is wrong
[02:10:44] <gezr> well, close enough I guess
[02:12:30] <gezr> no its on the ball :)
[02:30:30] <gezr> im almost out of steam
[02:30:40] <gezr> things are starting to run together tonight now
[02:30:55] <cradek> gezr: do you have a bigger file that bombs?
[02:31:04] <cradek> I didn't see all the previous conversation
[02:31:09] <gezr> in jepler's program example total moves is 3, total distance for each is
[02:31:24] <cradek> I want something long where it bombs in the middle of the file
[02:31:47] <gezr> na, cant do that, im gack
[02:31:49] <gezr> back
[02:32:02] <gezr> do you want his exact gcode?
[02:32:09] <cradek> jepler's? I have it
[02:32:16] <gezr> okay, were you able to recreate the error?
[02:32:19] <cradek> sure
[02:32:26] <gezr> oh you were?
[02:32:31] <cradek> but I'm not convinced that's the real problem
[02:32:36] <gezr> me either
[02:32:50] <gezr> did you read my ramblings right before les went to dinner?
[02:33:09] <cradek> not really - I want to work on my own just in case I'm on a different path
[02:33:09] <gezr> about how I think that something is causing a data blurb?
[02:33:15] <gezr> oh cool
[02:33:23] <gezr> what info did you need to hear then?
[02:33:24] <cradek> it might be bad for us to all work together
[02:33:34] <gezr> yeah, good point, problem I have is I cant code
[02:33:36] <cradek> I need a file where it errors in the middle of a long run
[02:33:47] <cradek> not at the end of a short run, like jepler's
[02:34:08] <gezr> you know, you could use one of the example ngc files in the examples dir i bet
[02:34:15] <cradek> ok, I will try them
[02:34:17] <gezr> I dont know if they are long enough
[02:34:20] <cradek> wish les was back, I'm sure he would have one
[02:34:29] <cradek> maybe tomorrow
[02:34:30] <gezr> yeah I bet he does for sure
[02:34:44] <gezr> I havent looked at emc in over a year
[02:34:50] <gezr> so im starting off the hip here
[02:35:18] <gezr> I put things in motion some times, I dont think this is a wich hunt either, its a viable necessity to have working
[02:35:43] <cradek> well, I have a small machine and the old planner works superbly for me
[02:35:47] <cradek> but I understand that's not typical
[02:36:09] <gezr> I dont understand enough about code to know how things jump around, when looking at the source its easy for me to get lost
[02:36:32] <cradek> it takes lots of practice to be able to read code
[02:36:37] <gezr> yeah
[02:36:39] <cradek> reading is possibly harder than writing
[02:37:15] <gezr> I dont understand a lot of things about it, I can follow some but when an external from an include is called, and I dont know what is returned I get squirly
[02:38:06] <gezr> you may be able to use a hpgl converter to convert a jpg or something to gcode
[02:38:30] <cradek> ok, thanks, I'm going to go work some more
[02:38:57] <gezr> okay
[02:39:08] <gezr> I didnt realize you were off working on this
[02:43:05] <jepler> cradek: that short run came from elm320.ngc at line 900 .. I'm not sure how long the "run" up to that point was, though. And it was repeatable, it gave me the short run just by removing most of the lines of the file.
[02:43:37] <cradek> so it always bombed at that line, and that line wasn't the end of the file?
[02:43:52] <jepler> it bombed two times at line 901, which was line 4 in the small file
[02:44:04] <cradek> ok
[02:45:11] <cradek> is your md5sum fb95...?
[02:45:21] <cradek> (not sure if I have the right file)
[02:45:33] <jepler> yes fb95....3960
[02:45:40] <jepler> or, to be exact, fb9549aa1bd376d33a0f7836d2873960 elm320.ngc
[02:47:08] <gezr> Dome_test is nearly 9k lines long
[02:47:20] <gezr> 8k that is
[02:53:15] <les> I just walked in from dinner...the ten commandments production code I have is huge and exhibited the error
[02:54:09] <gezr> in the file jepler posted, the linear distances between the points is in order: .26978290, .059264, .0041366
[02:54:35] <les> hmm
[02:55:30] <cradek> well if we all have the same error, I fixed or worked around it
[02:55:36] <cradek> I get past line 900 in jeff's file now
[02:55:50] <les> ? how?
[02:55:55] <cradek> the problem is when the segment queue is clearing out
[02:56:05] <cradek> in jeff's file it was the last segment before a pause
[02:56:13] <cradek> it's just a boundary condition problem
[02:56:31] <les> a pause as in dwell?
[02:56:34] <cradek> yes
[02:56:41] <les> ok
[02:56:53] <cradek> les: can I give you a change and you can test with high acceleration?
[02:57:00] <les> I have had it do it with no dwells
[02:57:02] <gezr> you think It was trying to read the g4 into the queue?
[02:57:08] <les> but that's a hint at least
[02:57:16] <cradek> gezr: no, it's just that the queue empties when there's a dwell
[02:57:33] <gezr> cradek : ah okay
[02:58:40] <les> Ican can sentd you the no dwell file that did it with Fred, Rogier, and I
[02:58:48] <cradek> great
[02:58:58] <les> hang on let me find it
[02:59:53] <cradek> (I may have fixed only one of many problems)
[03:00:10] <jepler> my case is "move with a chance to accelerate, then a short move, then a dwell" -> negative length
[03:00:18] <gezr> I just like the fact the ball is rolling :)
[03:00:19] <jepler> is that the one you attacked, Chris?
[03:00:44] <cradek> jepler: yes, it fixes that
[03:01:23] <cradek> jepler: I think a short move (relative to the last move), then dwell, will do it every time
[03:02:20] <gezr> hahahahahaha
[03:02:26] <jepler> possibly -- it at least doesn't require that the second move actually is in a different direction
[03:02:26] <gezr> I hope that didnt go into the channel
[03:02:29] <jepler> it can all be g0x moves
[03:02:59] <jepler> like this one: g0x0y0 / g0x-.1 / g0x-.101 / g4p0.01 / m2
[03:03:32] <les> chris timed out on irc file transfer to you
[03:03:44] <cradek> oops I didn't see the notification
[03:03:46] <cradek> try again please
[03:03:49] <les> k
[03:04:34] <cradek> got it
[03:04:44] <les> this is a 3-d one that had the problem
[03:04:46] <jepler> No solution found in sqPlanSegment
[03:04:47] <jepler> Error 1 in sqRunCycle
[03:05:03] <les> different than the one I mentioned
[03:05:11] <cradek> jepler: different bug!
[03:05:22] <les> but fred used it and had the problem mid way
[03:06:06] <jepler> hm, I got this message only with a 'g1 f1000', not with 'g1 f10'.
[03:06:32] <les> prob not an error really
[03:06:59] <les> just not enough accel for a solution to exist
[03:07:04] <gezr> so that error may need to reed, Possiable excessive feed rate, No solution found in sqPlanSegment
[03:07:45] <cradek> les: could you send me a sim.ini that represents your machine?
[03:07:46] <jepler> surely there's a solution: go slower than the given f-rate.
[03:08:00] <les> ideally segmentqueue lowers feedrate until a solution exists
[03:08:27] <les> but apparently not always
[03:08:48] <gezr> see how little I know, :)
[03:09:27] <gezr> it may also error if plane mode is switched during maching, xy then xz and so on
[03:10:31] <cradek> les: I'm at line 2000...
[03:10:41] <cradek> les: any idea where it errored before?
[03:10:44] <les> I am wondering if redundant zero length moves can cause it
[03:10:54] <les> sounds about right
[03:11:10] <gezr> zero length moves should be dwells
[03:11:25] <cradek> I disagree
[03:11:41] <gezr> interesting
[03:11:51] <les> well cam programs often do dumb things like repeated blocks with zero movement
[03:12:07] <cradek> * cradek points at les
[03:12:07] <gezr> I just see them as a waste of space, then again im using machines with limited space
[03:12:13] <jepler> I think I agree with chris and les -- programs might generate zero-length moves. emc should keep going at best speed
[03:12:56] <cradek> les: line 3700
[03:13:00] <cradek> les: it will take forever at this speed
[03:13:24] <les> hmm
[03:13:40] <cradek> can you send me a sim.ini file that represents your machine?
[03:13:40] <les> now you know why I charge so much for those signs
[03:13:44] <les> haha
[03:14:35] <les> well the .ini is on my web site
[03:14:41] <cradek> url?
[03:15:19] <les> www.lmwatts.com...go to links then engineering then cnc
[03:16:17] <gezr> cradek : its still running?
[03:16:23] <cradek> yes
[03:16:46] <les> it's not the sim.ini but I am running at 15 accel and 3 ips max vel
[03:17:17] <les> oh I had the pid zeroed out there for saftey if folks wanted to use ir
[03:17:20] <les> it
[03:17:46] <les> but the sim parameters should work
[03:24:41] <cradek> grr, can't get your ini to work
[03:26:22] <les> remember...pid is zeroed out
[03:26:38] <cradek> I put it back
[03:26:41] <cradek> it was commented
[03:26:46] <les> ok
[03:26:56] <cradek> minimilltaskintf.cc 1017: !ERROR! Error on axis 0.
[03:26:56] <cradek> minimilltaskintf.cc 1017: !ERROR! Error on axis 1.
[03:26:56] <cradek> emcTaskInit: adding user-defined function programs/M101
[03:26:56] <cradek> minimilltaskintf.cc 1017: !ERROR! Error on axis 2.
[03:26:56] <cradek> Minimum Hardware Limit on axis 0 exceeded.
[03:26:59] <cradek> Maximum Hardware Limit on axis 0 exceeded.
[03:27:01] <cradek> .....
[03:27:25] <les> oh...change to bridgeportio
[03:27:49] <cradek> my old sim.ini used simio
[03:28:20] <les> strange
[03:28:50] <cradek> [EMC] IO_BASE_ADDRESS not found in sim.ini; using default 278
[03:28:50] <cradek> bridgeportiomain.cc 190: !ERROR! can't initialize IO-- privilege problems?
[03:29:08] <les> well the errors crop up on all sorts of different configurations
[03:29:18] <cradek> ok, let's forget this
[03:29:21] <cradek> I'll go back to my old file
[03:29:42] <les> yeah...I think the problem is independent of that anyway
[03:40:28] <gezr> I hope that was all it needed :)
[03:40:54] <gezr> I think im gonna start leveling down and getting ready for bed
[03:41:02] <les> anyway my parallel port address was in a funny place
[03:41:46] <gezr> I hope it doesnt error on that file for you les, that would be sweet
[03:41:58] <les> gezer: have a beer and hit the sack...thanks for your help
[03:42:14] <gezr> I had my beer for the night earlier with the pizza :)
[03:42:56] <cradek> does the old planner have this cubic acceleration profile?
[03:43:18] <les> ...my dinner was grilled on cherry scraps created by emc
[03:43:41] <gezr> that has to be full of flavor
[03:44:13] <les> cradek: old emc has cubic SUB interpolation at the servo rate which is not all that useful IMHO
[03:44:28] <gezr> you need a emc controled, smoker house, so your chips go onto a conveyor, and emc trigers the conveyor to feed the box, and rotate the meat
[03:44:59] <les> have emc creating several TONS of cherry scraps
[03:45:03] <gezr> rotisery.emc
[03:45:07] <les> haha
[03:45:08] <gezr> .ini
[03:45:40] <gezr> all emc is making for me the past what is it now, 6 years? is lots of grey hair
[03:45:55] <gezr> yeah, at least that long
[03:46:14] <gezr> Im just a good thinker I guess
[03:46:15] <les> ha not grey hair for me....less hair
[03:46:34] <cradek> less hair, grey beard here
[03:46:36] <gezr> well the ones that havent fallen, jumped out turned grey
[03:46:43] <les> haw
[03:46:56] <gezr> heck im still a tiny 31
[03:46:56] <cradek> doubt I'll have grey on top - it won't last that long
[03:47:23] <cradek> gezr: it'll hit you any day, trust me
[03:47:46] <gezr> haha :)
[03:47:52] <cradek> les: sure am getting tired of watching your sign in axis here
[03:48:00] <gezr> hahahaha
[03:48:11] <les> slow ain't it?
[03:48:16] <cradek> yeah
[03:48:24] <cradek> in the spirals there's Z motion that kills the speed
[03:48:34] <les> those things often take half an hour or more
[03:48:35] <cradek> what's it doing there?
[03:48:57] <gezr> les do you use a single flute endmill or router bit?
[03:49:03] <les> which is why they are $50/ft^2
[03:49:04] <cradek> does it go down in the center of the spiral?
[03:49:30] <les> That is artcam making a 3-d carved celtic spiral border
[03:49:44] <gezr> wait a moment, do any of you own a surface grinder?
[03:49:50] <cradek> not me
[03:49:55] <les> using a v-cutter
[03:50:05] <les> I have a surface grinder
[03:51:24] <les> a boyer schultz 612 deluxe
[03:51:43] <les> recently rescraped to 25 millionths
[03:52:10] <gezr> ill remember that, I may ask you to quote me a good price on grinding some acme like threading tools, ill be making some gear hobbs, and then gashing the hobbs, all materials ill provide. easy simple stuff
[03:52:24] <les> sure
[03:53:08] <gezr> I dont have but some simple things here, and hand grinding acme bits drives me crazy, and using a dremel(dont laugh) to gash the teeth
[03:53:22] <cradek> well guys, I think it's possible I fixed this
[03:53:39] <les> cool! tell me more
[03:53:49] <cradek> well, it's still running your sign
[03:54:01] <cradek> it's about 4/5 done with the border now
[03:54:09] <gezr> :)
[03:55:18] <les> tell you what chris....if you get segmentqueue fixed...you get a free solid walnut house sign!
[03:55:47] <cradek> can I have some servos and amps instead?
[03:56:05] <gezr> 3 good servos went on ebay last night for under 100
[03:56:13] <les> haha I sold all the servos...100 of them
[03:56:21] <cradek> grr
[03:56:38] <cradek> les: by "fixed" do you mean "working" or "working right"?
[03:56:55] <cradek> or how about "working better"?
[03:57:01] <gezr> right now atatched to my home built driver board are 3 cdrom head positioning steppers
[03:57:11] <les> kept 3...I am doing the auction thing for a second vertical mill
[03:57:18] <les> need em for that
[03:58:42] <gezr> les were you ever able to have a complete run of that file under the new planer?
[03:59:12] <les> The router is actually metal capable...but now it got it's first decent production job pumping out $4 every 2 minutes
[03:59:20] <les> doing wood
[03:59:32] <les> so another mill for metal
[03:59:50] <les> gezr: no never got that file to run all the way
[03:59:57] <gezr> I have a little atlas horizontal
[04:00:05] <gezr> an atlas shaper and an atlas lathe
[04:00:12] <gezr> im the atlas junkie some how
[04:00:24] <les> I have had many atlas tools
[04:00:39] <gezr> my shaper is the jem
[04:00:49] <les> good to have
[04:00:50] <cradek> it's on the text finally
[04:00:58] <gezr> it looks like hell, but its the strok-o-matic 2000
[04:01:13] <gezr> dangerous oh my lord
[04:01:24] <les> sounds like a machine a woman could love
[04:01:39] <cradek> please tell me "stroke-o-matic 2000" isn't its real name
[04:02:01] <gezr> hahahah, no its not, I dont use 2000
[04:02:42] <gezr> I call it my shaper
[04:02:57] <les> I am in this growth pang stage where I am having to up the hp on everything
[04:03:13] <gezr> deepest cut or pass ive taken was like .050 in stainless
[04:03:28] <cradek> gezr: mill or lathe?
[04:03:39] <gezr> your cutter may help with hp, if you use a different geometry
[04:03:42] <les> and...every minute emc runs...it creates a minute of employee labor sanding what it made
[04:03:44] <gezr> onthe shaper
[04:04:14] <gezr> the deepest cut ive ever taken on a machine is about a half inch depth on a lathe
[04:04:21] <gezr> heavest part is a ton
[04:04:29] <les> I am using custom designed $70 carbide cnc router bits
[04:04:37] <gezr> longest part is 15'9" or there abouts
[04:04:42] <les> wow
[04:05:15] <gezr> largest dia ive turned at is well I had a 25inch piece in last week, but just had to lay it out
[04:05:18] <cradek> working area on my tools is about the size of a brick
[04:05:27] <cradek> well it FINALLY finished
[04:05:28] <gezr> this stuff is where I work
[04:05:51] <les> cradek: it ran?
[04:05:55] <cradek> yeah
[04:06:00] <gezr> runed, were in the south les
[04:06:26] <gezr> cradek : most execlent :)
[04:06:36] <les> cool
[04:06:54] <cradek> let me try it on my real machine
[04:06:55] <les> anxious to see what you did tothe code
[04:07:09] <cradek> it's a one line change :-P
[04:07:29] <les> oh scale it...that is about a 12x18 in sign
[04:07:35] <cradek> jeez
[04:07:53] <les> I sometimes do 10 foot ones
[04:08:08] <gezr> tommrow I talk threading :)
[04:08:09] <les> have to shift it and do it in halfs
[04:08:36] <les> halves
[04:08:39] <gezr> no Ill save that for later
[04:08:39] <les> haha
[04:08:58] <gezr> I do think slaved axises would be way cool
[04:09:11] <gezr> for say, ridgid tapping and the likes
[04:09:34] <les> I gave away two cnc hardinges with fried bandit controls when I moved down from Chicago
[04:09:41] <les> sorry now
[04:09:51] <les> too heavy though
[04:10:05] <gezr> im really liking the fagor controls im using where im at now
[04:10:22] <les> Got fed up with two nasty ryder truck rides over the mountains
[04:10:35] <gezr> I can really help some one work out conversational programing methods for emc
[04:11:03] <gezr> Ive never had something generate gcode for me
[04:11:11] <gezr> and conversational is neat
[04:11:22] <les> gezr: if segmentqueue is fixed emc will outperform fador and fanuc
[04:11:33] <gezr> I know it will
[04:12:43] <gezr> motion like fluid
[04:12:51] <les> I have a few dozen thousand worth of cam software here...but this is a business
[04:13:13] <les> have to live off of grits to buy it though
[04:13:26] <gezr> ill probably try tubocam out
[04:13:51] <les> millwrite2000 is very good...$800
[04:13:53] <gezr> Ive been a turbocad user for over 10 years, I can only make straight lines and the likes, I just seem to lack motovation
[04:14:15] <gezr> thats not a bad price
[04:14:41] <les> signs like the one cris just run start as a 2d autocad 2000 dxf
[04:14:50] <gezr> oh wow
[04:15:01] <les> then converted to 3-d chip carving by artcam
[04:15:43] <gezr> too cool
[04:16:01] <les> it pulls the v-tool up to make sharp inside corners
[04:16:20] <gezr> on nice
[04:16:41] <gezr> how many rpm are you pulling?
[04:16:57] <les> but now the machine is on a 2 month job that has 6 tool changes
[04:17:05] <gezr> automagic?
[04:17:06] <les> 21,000 rpm
[04:17:17] <les> manual sadly
[04:17:28] <gezr> can you bring that up closer to 30k and not need nearly the hp?
[04:17:32] <les> but parts are 36 up so not too bad
[04:17:58] <gezr> I dont know jack about cutting wood
[04:18:11] <gezr> but im not affraid of 200ipm in steel
[04:18:13] <les> right now I need just plain old hp
[04:18:40] <gezr> how many hp do you have now?
[04:19:07] <les> looking at a 7 hp colombo motorized 24,000 rpm spindle
[04:19:13] <gezr> ill look tommrow in the shop, we may have some drives
[04:19:18] <les> now I have only 3 hp
[04:19:42] <gezr> they are pretty long, look powerfull, they came off of crains, so probaly low rpm but high hp
[04:19:53] <les> yup
[04:20:03] <les> I need just the opposite
[04:20:04] <gezr> timming belt and away ya go
[04:20:27] <gezr> oh you probably want a cartdrige unit?
[04:20:42] <les> the colombos are 2 pole 3 phase induction motors run by a 400 hz vfd
[04:20:44] <gezr> these things are 8inch or so in dia
[04:20:54] <gezr> oh?
[04:21:19] <gezr> do they take step type input or +/- stuff or direct speed control?
[04:21:39] <les> very expensive though
[04:22:03] <gezr> I wasnt going to ask, they say ifyou have to ask you probably cant :)
[04:22:07] <les> they just run from the vfd...which can be controlled by emc
[04:22:18] <les> let me give you a link
[04:22:58] <gezr> I have a very wicked tool changer idea in my head, its manual, but high tech, and part of the spindle
[04:23:47] <gezr> I have a fully automated hydraulic idea as well, and oh neat a non hydraulic idea just popped into my brain
[04:23:53] <les> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3809305426&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
[04:24:41] <les> I would like automatic tool change, but it cost as muchas a new car
[04:24:44] <gezr> oh that is wicked
[04:27:19] <gezr> ill have to draw it up, cant find good links
[04:27:29] <les> dothat
[04:27:49] <cradek> well I got through les's and jeff's files fine - but going to bed now. More testing and reading tomorrow.
[04:28:06] <cradek> good night
[04:29:16] <gezr> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=45019&item=3863250403&rd=1
[04:29:33] <gezr> that is a tool holder that with the turn of one screw would hold tightly into the spindle
[04:29:38] <gezr> cradek : goodnight
[04:30:04] <les> nite all
[04:30:11] <gezr> they have a complete system, and the holder unit will be the spindle flooting in a bearing pack
[04:30:16] <gezr> night les
[04:30:20] <les> really excited about the segmentqueue stuff
[04:30:38] <cradek> me too, but my chickens aren't fully hatched yet.
[04:31:00] <gezr> :)
[04:31:09] <gezr> im gone as well, ya'll have fun
[04:32:08] <les> on closing...I have been trying to incorporate emc in a large corporation manufacturing line. I hoped I might get some funding for you guys...but segmentqueue has to work to do it.
[04:35:59] <les> The money will go somewhere. It would be a damned shame to give it to parker.
[04:36:24] <les> anyway, good night all
[09:58:19] <box_> hi :)
[10:04:10] <box_> i was wondering if emc can be used to do blank milling so i can cleanly prototype pcb layouts without corroding ..thus using chemicals
[10:13:20] <box_> hmm, well, ill see :) lets insert this BDI iso into qemu and take a look :)
[10:16:33] <box_> hmm, ok, stuck at the "enhanced machine controller" popimage
[12:56:32] <robin_sz> meep?
[13:15:45] <trp> Good afternoon paul_c.
[13:16:01] <paul_c> * paul_c hides..
[14:27:36] <jepler> cradek: did you commit your segmot fix?
[14:45:30] <cradek> no, I want to make sure it's the right fix and not a band-aid first, and that requires more study
[14:48:34] <jepler> you'll end up the segmot expert if you're not careful
[14:50:55] <cradek> well there's a well-written paper describing the algorithm... I could have it worse
[16:12:15] <CIA-9> 03paul_c * 10emc/ (lukas.run generic.run emc.run): Modify the generic.run script to handle the new realtime & nonrealtime plats if they are not symlinks. Replace emc.run & lukas.run with wrappers calling generic.run - One run script to maintain rather than a multitude.
[17:51:58] <jepler_> I just released axis 1.0b2. see the axis website, axis.unpy.net, to download it.
[18:03:07] <les> I'll have a look
[18:06:11] <les> whoops think your site is down right now
[18:06:36] <les> well back to the shop
[18:31:29] <asdfqwega> Anyone want a used Silicon Graphics 320?
[18:41:55] <an0n> I wouldnt mind :)
[18:41:59] <an0n> but I am in sweden
[18:48:48] <Imperator_> Hi all
[18:49:35] <Imperator_> is here somebody how knows how precise spindels are working ???
[18:51:12] <Imperator_> looks like that it is a two phase motor
[19:00:18] <les> what kind of spindle?
[19:10:54] <Imperator_> Hi Les
[19:11:10] <Imperator_> it is maybe a SC62
[19:14:08] <jepler_> les: hm, can you browse axis.unpy.net yet?
[19:14:30] <jepler_> les: this irc session starts at the same host as axis.unpy.net so I think it's "up"
[19:15:00] <les> will try
[19:15:08] <cradek> jepler_: fine from IN
[19:15:36] <cradek> jepler_: the front page still says "coming up"
[19:17:41] <jepler_> cradek: OK, front-page article added (and the download should have been on the sidebar, too)
[19:18:07] <cradek> is 256k right?
[19:18:43] <jepler_> seems to be complete
[19:18:51] <cradek> wow, that's small
[19:18:53] <les> strange can't get the site...got it a few days ago
[19:19:10] <jepler_> les: what error do you get? connection refused, timeout, 404?
[19:19:41] <les> just doze saying it can't find the site
[19:19:53] <cradek> look at the very bottom of the doze error
[19:19:53] <jepler_> does axis.unpythonic.net work?
[19:20:00] <cradek> the last line sometimes has the real error
[19:20:05] <les> check spelling...www.axis.unpy.net
[19:20:21] <jepler_> there is no www.axis.unpy.net. http://axis.unpy.net/
[19:20:59] <les> browser puts that in
[19:21:58] <Imperator_> jepler_: axis.unpy.net and axis.unpythonic.net are working here
[19:22:06] <les> oh got it...browser did'nt put in the complete add.
[19:23:12] <les> had some crashes and it forgot preferences I think
[19:23:20] <les> oh well
[19:23:52] <les> the new improved xp sp2 crashes very excellently
[19:24:00] <Imperator_> les: do you have a precise spindel ???
[19:24:05] <les> it's a feature
[19:24:26] <les> I would like to think the spindles on my machines are precise yes
[19:24:50] <les> you mentioned the one you have is 2 phase?
[19:25:00] <Imperator_> jep
[19:25:08] <Imperator_> i can mesure it
[19:25:22] <les> seems very unusual
[19:25:29] <Imperator_> yes
[19:25:37] <les> sure it's not star 3 phase?
[19:25:46] <les> 4 wires
[19:26:38] <Imperator_> but i have four wires and i can mesure 2Ohm between two pairs and they have no connection to each other
[19:26:58] <jepler_> cradek: 256k is just the source, compressed .. that seems pretty big
[19:27:47] <les> could not find manufacturer's data I guess?
[19:28:58] <Imperator_> the problem is i have a frequency converter but i don't know how to connet it
[19:30:50] <les> test to see if there is a low resistance between all possible wire pair combinations
[19:33:48] <Imperator_> there is nothing else
[19:34:17] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ hangs on the phone
[19:34:55] <les> if there are wire pairs that have high resistance then it must be 2 phase or a starting winding
[19:37:29] <les> I googled 2 phase motors and there is just about nothing other than steppers
[19:42:30] <les> 1,3, and 5 phase but not 2
[20:11:24] <Imperator_> * Imperator_ is back
[20:12:05] <Imperator_> les: two phase motors are also possible
[20:12:39] <Imperator_> i don't know the english name, but the asynchron motors with the condensator is such a one
[21:09:07] <les> yes I saw some reference in a book about them using a phase shift capacitor
[21:09:22] <les> They are apparently very uncommon though
[21:09:35] <les> I wonder what advantage they have
[21:11:33] <Imperator_> Hm, for two phase motors is a complicated electronic needed.
[21:12:17] <Imperator_> don't know why they are doing this
[21:13:36] <les> I found a link
[21:13:38] <asdfqwega> Is it marked 2-phase?
[21:13:55] <les> they are run from single phase
[21:14:01] <Imperator_> no but i have mesured it
[21:14:15] <les> or two legs of 3 phase with reduced stability
[21:14:15] <asdfqwega> Not just a 1-phase that can run series or parallel on 220/440?
[21:14:24] <gezr> hello
[21:14:26] <les> i'll get the link
[21:14:41] <les> http://www.ee-one.com/new-5796140-4316.html
[21:15:15] <Imperator_> It is a Precise Spindel which runs on a frequency converter
[21:17:49] <Imperator_> that guy is not correct, a one phase motor is also possible but you have no starting torque
[21:18:03] <asdfqwega> I have an old, old book around here somewhere...
[21:18:21] <les> this might also help:
[21:18:24] <les> http://www.micromech.co.uk/dir_products/prod_range_slosyn_sync_motors.asp
[21:18:33] <asdfqwega> No, he is quite correct...
[21:18:41] <gezr> les : were you able to test the changes made last night?
[21:19:05] <les> chris is still working on them
[21:19:30] <gezr> cool, I was just wondering
[21:19:45] <Imperator_> the spindel is a asynchrone motor
[21:20:17] <les> I am running production right now and can't play with the software much, but I will try iy as soon as he is ready
[21:20:57] <jepler_> did anybody find a test case that wasn't "short move followed by dwell"?
[21:21:05] <les> imperator: yes I understand...funny that the 2 phase slo-syns are synchronous
[21:21:12] <jepler_> that's the only case chris fixed, as I understand it
[21:21:19] <les> oh
[21:21:43] <les> yes I have absolutely had it stop with no dwell programmed
[21:21:55] <les> but there may have been repeated points
[21:22:26] <les> I cannot see the code where it stops on the display
[21:22:43] <cradek> jepler_: I don't think a dwell is required to tickle the bug I fixed
[21:22:43] <asdfqwega> Hm..must have left the book in my other library :P
[21:22:45] <les> well I can't see the next line really
[21:22:56] <gezr> I have a ton of stuff to do for now, ill be in and out
[21:23:08] <les> hi chris
[21:23:20] <gezr> ill see if I cant get a box up and running this evening
[21:23:45] <gezr> Ill probably just dump whats on it to disk, and then boot i up, clean debian
[21:23:45] <les> the file I sent had no dwells programmed...for sure
[21:24:06] <les> but it stopped at first right?
[21:24:39] <gezr> I think the only time It wouldnt run was when he was trying to use your ini file to match your machine
[21:25:03] <gezr> that or I dont pay enough attention
[21:25:06] <jepler_> hm, I wonder if a patch would be accepted so that ./sim.run xxx would pass "-ini sim.ini xxx" to the display program. axis would load the g-code file xxx in that case, which would be quite useful for us unix shell lovers...
[21:25:23] <Imperator_> asdfqwega: a one phase motor is possible, we had such a one at our self made grinding machine when the condensator has died. It was working well but you had to start it by hand
[21:25:32] <cradek> jepler_: if you have commit access, every patch is accepted
[21:25:41] <jepler_> cradek: hah
[21:26:12] <les> I have more files known to cause a stop with segmentqueue if you need them
[21:26:31] <les> they are huge though
[21:26:37] <gezr> im going to try and get a machine read as x and y with a spring loaded stylus so I can run tests as well, if thats cool cradek?
[21:26:37] <cradek> les: is the error always the same (negative length)?
[21:26:49] <paul_c> * paul_c tries to build the latest Axis
[21:26:52] <les> yes always
[21:27:18] <cradek> ok
[21:27:21] <jepler_> paul_c: you'll have to make your setup.py changes again, those didn't get incorporated.
[21:27:26] <les> the only other thing I have seen is assigning a too slow velocity to long straight moves sometimes
[21:27:36] <cradek> I'm still studying the reason for that (even though I know how to get around it).
[21:27:40] <les> works, just goes slower than programmed
[21:27:44] <cradek> interesting - I thought I saw that, but wasn't sure
[21:27:49] <jepler_> paul_c: I have to confess, I haven't tried to install bdi-4.xx yet, I only burned the image
[21:28:06] <cradek> it's possible that the long segment was "joined" with a very short adjacent one
[21:28:15] <les> yes you should have seen that in the border cut
[21:28:43] <cradek> I'm not sure the criteria for linking segments are right. I see some suspicious behavior.
[21:28:55] <les> right...it is doing some tiny 3-d stuff in a sharp inside corner then a long straight move
[21:29:25] <les> The math looks right....not sure about the code
[21:29:42] <paul_c> * paul_c waves to rayh
[21:29:47] <gezr> cradek : quick question for you, if max seg lenth is 500 segments,does it complete 500 then refill or does it refresh once one is consumed?
[21:30:29] <cradek> you mean the max limit of linked segments? if so, the queue rarely gets that long
[21:30:39] <gezr> yeah, oh okay
[21:30:53] <les> funny thing is one really needed only 4 point look ahead to do this stuff
[21:31:12] <cradek> not true - sometimes dozens of segments are linked and planned all together
[21:31:22] <gezr> I was just wondering
[21:31:24] <cradek> for instance, a circle around a pcb pad is planned all together as a circle
[21:31:35] <cradek> (mine have 14 segments)
[21:31:37] <les> segmentqueue apparently looks ahead the whole program (if it is not too long)
[21:31:45] <cradek> currently 13 are linked and the 14th does something strange (related to this error)
[21:32:15] <cradek> yes, I understand it's possible the whole program can be linked in some unusual cases (maybe a spiral?)
[21:32:17] <les> I know it is linking many many segments...I'm just saying the cubic spline can be done with only four
[21:32:37] <cradek> but if the four are short enough that your machine can't get to full speed, you lose
[21:32:48] <cradek> I thought that was the whole idea here
[21:33:19] <rayh> * rayh waves back
[21:33:21] <gezr> cradek so basically, then the planer needs a parser to see if something even qualifys for that planer
[21:33:24] <gezr> ?
[21:33:28] <cradek> think of a circle with huge radius (needing very little acceleration) but made of very small segments
[21:33:30] <les> The planner solves the boundary conditions that include machine constraints
[21:33:52] <paul_c> * paul_c has a question or two for rayh
[21:34:34] <rayh> k
[21:34:41] <les> for a circle it would update linked cubics...actually quadratics (cubic with a zero first coef,)
[21:34:42] <cradek> les: ok, I obviously don't know enough to debate about that
[21:35:38] <cradek> I would suggest that if there's a simple planner that's better than tp/tc and simpler than segmentqueue, you should code it up
[21:35:48] <jepler_> Here's a program that gets a "Panic: length negative in sqPlanSegment", no dwell. g0x0y0 / g1x.1 f8 / g1x.2 / g1y.002 / g1x0y.001 / g1x0y0 / m2
[21:35:49] <les> haha Fred and I had a talk about that....we both used the same controls textbook in school and it has the whole thing solved closed form
[21:35:53] <jepler_> this is without chris's patch
[21:36:57] <jepler_> on the other hand, the next line is "m2" which is maybe like a dwell...
[21:37:19] <les> might be
[21:37:55] <cradek> yeah the error is at line 6 which is not linked to line 5
[21:37:59] <gezr> hmm
[21:38:19] <cradek> the only link it makes is 4 to 5
[21:38:28] <gezr> what tells the planner what is motion and what is machine?
[21:38:41] <les> Chris... I think Rogier is a super smart guy and he made the task such that it was a challenge...whether it was needed or not
[21:38:50] <les> i'm not complaining
[21:39:06] <cradek> les: write yours! there's always room for 3 planners!
[21:39:19] <les> love to
[21:39:45] <les> I just can't follow all the code in emc
[21:40:18] <les> if someone would set up some structures or something to get and throw data I could do it
[21:40:23] <cradek> If you are smart enough to understand the math, I can't believe that
[21:40:35] <cradek> start with the old planner, it's very clean
[21:40:44] <jepler_> I work day-to-day on a huge confusing application that I am far from understanding in full after 6 years. I just plow ahead, and still get stuff done...
[21:40:47] <cradek> there's a queue, one file adds to the queue in a canonical way
[21:41:08] <cradek> the other file monkeys with it. I understood it enough to fix helixes in an hour or two.
[21:41:45] <les> well if i can get data from the cannonicals and know where the queue is and how to get stuff on it I could do it
[21:41:57] <cradek> brb
[21:42:03] <les> what would happen is this:
[21:42:32] <les> 4 coefficients would be calculated for the cubic
[21:42:56] <les> each cannonical motion would cause those numbers to change
[21:43:42] <les> but they change in a way that beginning and end velocities and accel would match
[21:44:00] <les> it's an 8x8 matrix I think
[21:44:23] <les> linear...so solved closed form
[21:45:57] <les> So the PID always can just plug in the current coef's to find out where it is supposed to be
[21:46:13] <les> done for all axes of course
[21:46:37] <les> then inverse kin can find the eq in joint space
[21:47:50] <les> Now this is already done at the servo rate...but that's the wrong place
[21:48:18] <les> Has to be done at the planning stage
[21:48:54] <les> well the servo rate sub interpolation doesn't hurt...but it's too tight to do much in most machine aps
[21:51:30] <les> Rogier's code does a similar thing...just in an unusual way. It preprocesses many more points
[21:52:33] <les> After all it is planning. Actually tp could be done a few microseconds before or two weeks before...it's causal (unlike pid)
[22:00:18] <gezr> what is the location of the newest bdi release?
[22:01:23] <paul_c>
[22:01:54] <gezr> eh?
[22:05:06] <gezr> I wont be able to reach a private address
[22:10:36] <paul_c> I'm waiting for the beta testers to break it before going public
[22:11:02] <gezr> I guess im just a casual user
[22:12:57] <paul_c> You could still do some testing...
[22:14:06] <gezr> I would not have asked for newest had I been planing on using it for production, I can either clean install woody, or toss bdi onto a hard drive, It makes no difference to me how I set a system up
[22:15:26] <gezr> it was just a good place to try some install to drive options
[22:16:44] <paul_c> The latest BDI is using a 2.6.9 kernel...
[22:18:27] <rayh> gezr: I'm running it here and it's very nice. Synaptic doesn't seem to work right but the rest is very good.
[22:19:16] <paul_c> Got some autoconf stuff in rcslib that needs testing
[22:23:05] <gezr> so you would rather I went fresh debian install, cvs gets, match up the kernel, and have it ?
[22:23:16] <gezr> have at it that is
[22:25:08] <paul_c> If you wanted to do a manual install of Sarge (or Sid), I can bung all the debs I've created into a repository here
[22:25:28] <paul_c> Then you could add it to the sources.list and apt-get everything.
[22:26:04] <gezr> im flexable, however you want me to test or not test,
[22:26:58] <gezr> as long as you move the files to your mirror using apt-move it should be dandy for apt-get
[22:28:50] <robin_sz> * robin_sz wodners if debian has actually released a new stabel version yet
[22:29:00] <gezr> no still on woody
[22:29:05] <robin_sz> sigh
[22:29:05] <gezr> 3.0r3 i believe
[22:29:32] <paul_c> Sarge will be going stable real soon.
[22:29:32] <robin_sz> by the time sarge goes stable it will be old ...
[22:29:45] <gezr> it always is with debian
[22:29:47] <gezr> sigh
[22:29:52] <robin_sz> yeah, they said that in june :)
[22:30:22] <paul_c> You could always release your own Debian based distro.
[22:30:35] <robin_sz> that would be madness
[22:33:08] <robin_sz> the trouble with distros ( and that includes BDI ) is its all too easy to go down that route, and then you soon end up spending more time on the disro than on the actual packages ...
[22:34:08] <rayh> In the case of EMC if there was no BDI, you'd spend all your time trying to help folk compile it.
[22:34:18] <rayh> Trust me I've been there.
[22:34:20] <robin_sz> true enough ...
[22:35:33] <robin_sz> I suspect the real answer is packages like rpms or .debs
[22:38:43] <paul_c> then you end up having to maintain packages for kernels & RT extensions...
[22:42:33] <asdfqwega> The balance between progress and stability and workload...
[22:43:27] <asdfqwega> And learning curve...
[22:43:51] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega just compiled a 2.6.9 kernel for Debian
[22:44:13] <asdfqwega> It's like learning to walk again, with different legs
[22:45:48] <gezr> oh yeah a real irc client :)
[22:46:45] <an0n> are steppers really supposed to be loud?
[22:50:25] <asdfqwega> Yes
[22:50:52] <asdfqwega> They always make noise, but if they growl or grind, something's wrong
[22:52:31] <an0n> oh, it sounds like "FRRRRRRRRRP"
[22:52:33] <an0n> when moving
[22:52:38] <an0n> at really high speed it goes away
[22:52:56] <robin_sz> thats normal
[22:53:09] <an0n> is there anything wrong with it?
[22:53:11] <asdfqwega> With mine, there's always the high pitch whine from the chopper drive
[22:53:25] <asdfqwega> Which kinda blends into harmonics when it moves under load
[22:53:53] <an0n> does it aeffect accuracy?
[22:54:05] <asdfqwega> Not in my application
[22:54:17] <an0n> in any application?
[22:54:34] <an0n> unless we are talking extremities..
[22:54:36] <asdfqwega> Only if you're expecting too much from them :P
[22:54:52] <an0n> bleh, I'll order a new servo for that axis soon.
[22:54:54] <asdfqwega> You know how servos 'seek' back and forth?
[22:55:02] <an0n> yeah
[22:55:06] <an0n> got servos on the other axis:es
[22:55:28] <asdfqwega> Well, a stepper is a magnetic coupling, and it's kinda bouncy
[22:55:58] <asdfqwega> You move a step, and the motor tries to pull the rotor into position
[22:56:38] <asdfqwega> But it rarely stops at exact position...it oscilates(sp?)
[22:57:13] <asdfqwega> A really good example would be a variable reluctance stepper motor, like a few I have here
[22:57:34] <asdfqwega> 24 degrees per step, very low friction and damping
[22:57:44] <an0n> nice
[22:57:50] <an0n> I cant remember what step angle mine's at
[22:57:56] <an0n> but I gear it 6:1
[22:58:08] <an0n> so it's sufficient..
[22:58:08] <asdfqwega> With no load, each step makes a "Pwiiiiiinng" noise
[22:58:27] <asdfqwega> Most steppers are 1.8 or 2 degrees...usually 1.8 for new ones
[22:58:32] <an0n> I kind of fell in love with servos..
[22:58:55] <an0n> totally silent except for the slight whine
[22:59:01] <robin_sz> 24 degrees per step? .. that cant be right
[22:59:14] <an0n> the stepper I have are a japan servo one
[22:59:19] <an0n> steppers..
[22:59:31] <asdfqwega> What ratings?
[22:59:55] <an0n> let me check
[23:00:41] <an0n> 1,68nm
[23:00:52] <rayh> * rayh is away: getting a bite to eat.
[23:00:57] <an0n> 1,2 deg/step
[23:01:26] <asdfqwega> What kind of drive?
[23:01:43] <an0n> a geckodrive
[23:02:41] <asdfqwega> You're using microstepping?
[23:02:50] <an0n> yeah
[23:04:07] <asdfqwega> 1.68 newton-meter = 237 oz-in ...that's about the size I'm using
[23:04:22] <an0n> it's lots of torque :)
[23:04:27] <asdfqwega> I'm using Xylotex drives
[23:04:39] <an0n> I hope the axis will perform as well as I want it to�
[23:04:51] <an0n> going to try mill some molds :) for some fibreglass
[23:05:05] <asdfqwega> That's not a lot...I've got some 670 oz-in Nema 42's set aside (that's 670 in unipolar)
[23:05:31] <asdfqwega> Okay, what RPM are you trying to run it at?
[23:05:31] <an0n> 1,68 * 6
[23:05:53] <an0n> 10nm at the shaft to the ballscrew..
[23:06:26] <an0n> asdfqwega: I dont know yet, I dont have any data on that screw..
[23:06:36] <an0n> it's the only thing I havent replaced at the machine yet
[23:06:38] <asdfqwega> I've found that I can only expect a maximum of 300rpm from steppers
[23:07:11] <asdfqwega> After which, the torque curve is too low to be useful
[23:07:42] <an0n> :/
[23:07:58] <asdfqwega> But that's in my situation...I'm not using ball slides or ballscrews
[23:08:08] <asdfqwega> I've got friction and stiction :)
[23:08:52] <an0n> ah
[23:08:53] <an0n> :D
[23:09:09] <an0n> I dont have slides, but ballscrews..
[23:09:17] <an0n> * an0n longs until he gets time to build a lathe
[23:09:25] <an0n> I need a very small cnc lathe
[23:09:59] <an0n> like 5dm bed..
[23:10:08] <an0n> and a very heavy chuck
[23:10:14] <an0n> and linear slides..
[23:10:19] <an0n> and a toolchanger
[23:10:48] <an0n> I've got a good idea how it should look
[23:11:17] <an0n> only problem is time and to find somone that can cast the base for me :)
[23:11:35] <gezr> anyone who casts, if you supply the pattern
[23:11:49] <an0n> hm, dont know any in sweden
[23:11:55] <paul_c> epoxy-concrete
[23:12:05] <an0n> cast iron perferably..
[23:12:33] <an0n> or is epoxy concrete better?
[23:12:37] <gezr> there are some spainish foundries im sure in spain
[23:12:52] <gezr> or poland, with toolmex/bison
[23:12:58] <an0n> paul_c: can it be machined nicely?
[23:13:30] <an0n> err ground..
[23:13:33] <gezr> a lot of tool builders use a epoxy-concrete base, with linear slides on it
[23:13:35] <paul_c> 'pends what type of aggregates are used.
[23:13:55] <gezr> cincinati, and hardinge I know use something like that
[23:14:04] <an0n> nice
[23:14:12] <an0n> that would probably be perfect..
[23:14:46] <Imperator_> an0n: i prefer epoxy-concrete. I want to cast a frame for a milling machine
[23:15:00] <an0n> Imperator_: is that hard to work with?
[23:15:07] <an0n> Imperator_: and can you get it for home use?
[23:15:36] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega can cast aluminum...haven't tried iron (yet)
[23:15:40] <Imperator_> i think/hope it is not hard to work with
[23:16:03] <an0n> :)
[23:16:11] <Imperator_> i have made a test part last week, i was surprised how good it is
[23:16:31] <asdfqwega> Hm...I'll have to look into that
[23:16:40] <an0n> Imperator_: very nice
[23:16:44] <Imperator_> i have bought a special sand mixture and mixed it with 10% epoxi
[23:17:17] <an0n> how is the weight?
[23:17:22] <gezr> rough concrete casting first, then the epoxy layer is put on top, with mounting holes left in teh concret base, so that the epoxy is machined to accept say a bolt for mounting?
[23:17:37] <gezr> oh its all mixed together neat
[23:17:55] <Imperator_> the wight is about 3,5g/cm�
[23:18:09] <an0n> hm, what's regular cement/cast iron?
[23:18:24] <an0n> or well, how's the rigidity..
[23:18:27] <an0n> that's more important..
[23:18:41] <gezr> sand/agreagate/cement
[23:19:23] <Imperator_> what is "agreagate" ???
[23:19:39] <gezr> rock, pebble,
[23:19:50] <Imperator_> look at www.epucret.de
[23:20:12] <gezr> my spelling is off on that
[23:21:01] <an0n> seems very nice
[23:21:04] <an0n> is that expensive?
[23:21:17] <Imperator_> very expensive !
[23:21:21] <asdfqwega> I don't know how it is overseas, but if I wanted a base for a machine, I'd find a used granite surface plate
[23:21:30] <Imperator_> sand mixture about 4 EUR/25kg
[23:21:44] <gezr> thats nice stuff
[23:21:47] <Imperator_> exopy 15 EUR/kg
[23:21:57] <an0n> well, for 7dm2..
[23:22:00] <an0n> err
[23:22:04] <an0n> err wrong
[23:22:13] <an0n> 7x4dm
[23:22:41] <Imperator_> the thing with the granit plate is also good but only if you don't have to machine it
[23:23:12] <Imperator_> if you can use it like it is, then it is perfect
[23:23:21] <an0n> Imperator_: can you guess the price? of somthing like that
[23:23:53] <an0n> well if it's < 400$ it's a good deal.. :
[23:23:55] <an0n> err
[23:23:56] <gezr> ah, i see, you need to use say a steel inlay in the form, to have something to machine,
[23:23:56] <asdfqwega> wow...that must be some amazing stuff, to make sturdy machines
[23:23:57] <an0n> great deal
[23:24:52] <Imperator_> the prise is like i said for the material, the question is how many tryes you need for a good frame
[23:25:10] <Imperator_> and you have to make the mould
[23:25:48] <an0n> can you cast it in sand?
[23:25:52] <gezr> you dont really machine the base, you put the nuts into the casting its self, so that, after it hardens, you just have to scrape down the tops or machine , set your slide in place, and bolt it down, since the bolt holes are pre machined
[23:25:55] <asdfqwega> Yes
[23:26:12] <an0n> ah well, 2-3 tries..
[23:26:13] <asdfqwega> You can cast concrete in sand, but there's a little trick to it
[23:26:53] <Imperator_> the trick is that you have to shake the concrete after you have filled it in the mould
[23:27:06] <Imperator_> so you need a stable mould
[23:27:14] <an0n> vibrate.. yeah :)
[23:27:21] <Imperator_> jep
[23:27:24] <asdfqwega> I can't remember it you have to spray the sand mould with something...
[23:27:25] <an0n> dont you usually do that when working with cement?
[23:27:44] <Imperator_> exactly
[23:28:01] <gezr> you need to do that anyway to remove the air pockets
[23:28:19] <gezr> if you want cement to flow you use a vibrator
[23:28:21] <Imperator_> thats why
[23:28:29] <an0n> well the mold would be in 6 pices.. if I milled it on my machine
[23:28:46] <an0n> and 2 passes per piece..
[23:28:49] <gezr> the vibrations make it flow like water, and lets the air bubbles rise
[23:29:39] <Imperator_> not like water, but it was ok
[23:29:51] <an0n> :)
[23:30:12] <an0n> well, I could cast the base as a solid square.. :p
[23:30:19] <an0n> but that isnt as neat.. as to have a structure..
[23:31:12] <gezr> you could probably get by with a woden mold, slime it a vaseline, or similiar grease, have all your ingredients,atatchment points, everything ready to go, mix and pour, put the atatchement sections into place, vibrate, add more to top it off, and your done, I would use the top of the mold as either the bottom or a non used side
[23:31:22] <Imperator_> that was amazing when i put the 10% epoxi into the sand, the sand was only looking a bit like it is wet. but it doesent flow. then i vibrated it and it began to flow and it filled the mould completly
[23:32:11] <an0n> neat
[23:32:26] <Imperator_> the concrete has on the bottom side the best quality
[23:32:39] <gezr> so you use expxy and a cement? I keep wanting to say lime, but I cant think of the proper term sand, gravel, here I would use a bag of portland cement
[23:32:50] <an0n> * an0n has a idea
[23:32:52] <Imperator_> no cement !
[23:33:05] <gezr> so the epoxy is the binder?
[23:33:12] <an0n> I dont really need to make the mold that high..
[23:33:12] <Imperator_> jep
[23:33:13] <gezr> 90% sand 10% epoxy?
[23:33:51] <an0n> I need a ballscrew to pass under and a servo on the other side of the machine..
[23:33:53] <Imperator_> max 10% less is better i think in the industry they use 6-10%
[23:34:00] <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega wants to see the look on the store clerk's face when I go to buy a 10lb tub of vaseline for concrete molds...
[23:34:08] <gezr> how much shrinkage did you get?
[23:34:47] <Imperator_> i haven't measured it, but at the next thest i will do that
[23:35:12] <an0n> :)
[23:35:15] <an0n> brb
[23:35:18] <an0n> shower time
[23:35:23] <gezr> asdfqwega : you could just load one cart up with the little tubs :)
[23:35:27] <an0n> Imperator_: thanks for the idea!
[23:35:48] <gezr> I never considered that at all, probably no stress relieving needed, nothing like that
[23:35:53] <Imperator_> i will report if i make the next test
[23:35:58] <Imperator_> or better ask me
[23:36:54] <gezr> test to see how much it grows after its been put in warm water, for thermal expansion, and check shrinkage stuff like that
[23:37:17] <Imperator_> jep
[23:37:36] <Imperator_> i hope it is not so far away from steel
[23:37:58] <gezr> if your going to do another pour, if you can put 2 steel rods in the mold, so you can measure expansions between to cast in points
[23:38:57] <gezr> you just saved me a ton of money, I was going to go with castings
[23:39:06] <gezr> cast iron
[23:39:23] <Imperator_> because i want to put some steel profiles in. on this steel profiles i place the slides
[23:39:58] <gezr> sweet
[23:41:53] <gezr> can you add a cement die to colorize the base?
[23:42:02] <gezr> or would that cause problems with the epoxy?
[23:42:24] <Imperator_> you can colorize the epoxy
[23:44:21] <Imperator_> the newest technik is to cast the frame with a tollerance of less then a mm. Then put a special surfacer on that aerea where the slides have to be and press a reference element on it. The surfacer doesent shrink while it gets hard
[23:45:02] <Imperator_> then you don't have to machine anything on the frame
[23:45:53] <Imperator_> that company(Epucret) sells a nice little book about all that
[23:46:53] <Imperator_> but it is in german :-)
[23:47:04] <an0n> :(
[23:47:15] <an0n> that's a large problem
[23:47:16] <Imperator_> hehe
[23:47:38] <Imperator_> there are nice pictures in it :-)
[23:48:10] <an0n> haha
[23:48:16] <an0n> but that dosent help or does it?
[23:48:24] <an0n> * an0n is very interested in casting
[23:48:37] <an0n> I'd love to cast aluminium :)
[23:49:05] <Imperator_> can you do that ?
[23:49:20] <an0n> no
[23:49:24] <Imperator_> :-)
[23:49:25] <an0n> I dont know how to do :
[23:49:27] <an0n> :)
[23:50:36] <robin_sz> i can help here ..
[23:50:44] <robin_sz> 1) get aluminium
[23:50:46] <Imperator_> i think casting concret is not that complicated. I will make my frame out of four parts. then i machine the steel profiles and then i stick them together
[23:50:47] <robin_sz> 2) melt it
[23:50:55] <robin_sz> 3) pour it into something
[23:51:26] <gezr> heat n serve
[23:51:33] <Imperator_> then throw it away
[23:51:38] <an0n> :D
[23:51:39] <an0n> heh
[23:52:01] <an0n> isnt there more to it then that?
[23:52:07] <an0n> * an0n has a side project for the car
[23:52:08] <robin_sz> not really
[23:52:18] <gezr> not really, im sure a learning curve is needed for near net shape parts
[23:52:24] <robin_sz> molds are fun
[23:52:26] <gezr> and some dangers with all of it
[23:52:32] <an0n> well, I am not molding anything final
[23:52:40] <an0n> I'd be machining it to tolerance anyway..
[23:52:40] <robin_sz> they need to be VERY dry, or the moisture boils out and ruins the cast
[23:52:53] <gezr> yeah
[23:52:54] <robin_sz> ideally they need to be porous
[23:52:58] <Imperator_> it has a reason why a casting company normaly makes only one type of casting !!!!
[23:53:21] <an0n> roller throttle body..
[23:53:21] <an0n> :D
[23:53:33] <robin_sz> roller throttle?
[23:53:44] <gezr> robin_sz : vent holes right?
[23:53:44] <robin_sz> like on little airplane motors?
[23:53:53] <an0n> hm, dont know how they work..
[23:54:13] <an0n> but on a normal throttle body you have a shaft in the middle..
[23:54:18] <robin_sz> gezr: well, I was thiking more of some of the neat vacuum tricks you can do
[23:54:18] <gezr> I have a buddy that has a nice forge, I guess he works with aluminums, and some other things,
[23:54:41] <gezr> robin_sz : oh yeah, almost making an investment casting then hu?
[23:55:00] <robin_sz> an0n: on butterfly throttles, yes. high performance carbs are almost always flat-slides
[23:55:16] <an0n> yeah, but the flat ones are hard to design..
[23:55:35] <robin_sz> gezr: polystyrene investment, in a sand tub
[23:55:46] <an0n> robin_sz: and roller ones also :)
[23:55:55] <gezr> thats where part of the mold its self desintegrates right?
[23:56:09] <gezr> well all of it i guess
[23:56:10] <robin_sz> gezr: blow into sand, push polystyrene in ... revers motor to vacuum, sand locks down tight
[23:56:17] <robin_sz> yep.
[23:56:32] <robin_sz> pour alloy onto spur and job is done.
[23:56:51] <an0n> lost foam casting :)
[23:57:03] <gezr> yeah hahaha, too cool
[23:57:55] <robin_sz> an0n: not seen roller ones used except on really tiny carbs for model airplane motors, they are bulky in bigger sizes and its easier just to desing a 3% bigger butterfly carb to take into account the support rod
[23:58:10] <an0n> robin_sz: they cost like $700 to buy a pair of them ;)
[23:58:29] <an0n> ok
[23:58:49] <robin_sz> an0n: flat slides were introduced for special class restriction racing .. where they spec 'no carb more than 32mm bore' .. then its worth the hassle of a flatslide to get the max performance from a specific bore
[23:58:58] <an0n> yeah :)
[23:59:06] <an0n> http://www.lumenition.com/roller.pdf
[23:59:56] <Imperator_> ok, see you guys