#emc | Logs for 2004-12-25

[03:47:47] <jmkasunich> Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night
[05:42:34] <CIA-4> 03jmkasunich * 10emc2/src/emc/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
[05:42:35] <CIA-4> added a new motion controller command AXIS_ABORT, which corresponds to the
[05:42:35] <CIA-4> AXIS_ABORT NML message. The existing ABORT command corresponds to the
[05:42:35] <CIA-4> TRAJ_ABORT message (previously both messages invoked ABORT). This fixes bug
[05:42:35] <CIA-4> 1090657 so that simultaneous jogs work correctly. Also fixed some bugs in the
[05:42:35] <CIA-4> handling of the INPOS flags, and other minor stuff. Merry Christmas
[05:52:33] <CIA-4> 03cradek * 10emc/src/emcmot/tc.c: (log message trimmed)
[05:52:33] <CIA-4> fix for bug 1082652: following errors because of wrong velocity in
[05:52:33] <CIA-4> helical arcs.
[05:52:33] <CIA-4> Previously any arc with a component perpendicular to the arc
[05:52:33] <CIA-4> plane had the wrong velocity because the (projected) arc length,
[05:52:33] <CIA-4> not the helix length, was used for velocity calculation. Since the
[05:52:35] <CIA-4> projected arc length is always less than the helix length, helixes
[06:08:25] <CIA-4> 03cradek * 10emc2/src/emc/kinematics/tc.c: (log message trimmed)
[06:08:25] <CIA-4> fix for bug 1082652: following errors because of wrong velocity in
[06:08:25] <CIA-4> helical arcs.
[06:08:25] <CIA-4> Previously any arc with a component perpendicular to the arc
[06:08:25] <CIA-4> plane had the wrong velocity because the (projected) arc length,
[06:08:26] <CIA-4> not the helix length, was used for velocity calculation. Since the
[06:08:28] <CIA-4> projected arc length is always less than the helix length, helixes
[11:20:42] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/usrmotintf.c: File changed. New revision:
[11:20:44] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/shm.cc: File changed. New revision:
[11:40:33] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/tc.c: File changed. New revision:
[14:52:03] <robin_sz> Greetings ... with holly om
[15:02:34] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/emc.ini: File changed. New revision:
[15:02:34] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/usrmot.c: File changed. New revision:
[15:02:34] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/emccommand.c: File changed. New revision:emcmot.h
[15:02:35] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/emcglb.h: File changed. New revision:iniaxis.cc
[15:02:35] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/bridgeporttaskintf.cc: File changed. New revision:minimilltaskintf.cc
[15:40:26] <paul_c> Looks like the new hacks are working...
[15:42:04] <robin_sz> * robin_sz is doing christmas with the kids
[15:42:13] <robin_sz> not got around to opening presesnts yet ...
[15:42:35] <robin_sz> but .. I have recompiled gphoto2 with some patches this morning
[15:42:55] <robin_sz> its important to get your priorities right I think ... ;)
[15:43:28] <paul_c> In the words of Jamie Oliver....
[15:43:36] <paul_c> "Stuff it" ??
[15:49:03] <Beermann> Hey can anybody help me getting the reight hardware for EMC I want to make it my self
[15:59:55] <robin_sz> Beermann: right hardware? ok .. you'll need what we call a "PC"
[16:01:04] <robin_sz> basically, pretty much any off the shelf PC will do. try and find one with a seperate video card if you can
[16:16:43] <Beermann> Robin_sz what i need is a stepper controller for the steppers
[16:17:27] <Beermann> I was looking at turboCNC does anybody of you know anything about it?
[16:18:01] <paul_c> Won't run under linux.
[16:18:27] <Beermann> the hardware???
[16:18:44] <Beermann> will the Controller run in EMC?
[16:19:17] <robin_sz> emc is the controller ...
[16:19:31] <robin_sz> then you need a stepper drive .. like the Geckodrives for instance
[16:19:35] <paul_c> EMC runs under Linux, and it will controll most hardware.
[16:19:54] <robin_sz> http://www.geckodrive.com/ sell stepper driver hardware
[16:20:36] <Beermann> okay thanks... now all i want is to know if anybody of you have some links for controllers that is homemade i dont want to buy the
[16:20:37] <Beermann> m
[16:21:38] <Beermann> like the one they made for turboCNC based on a Pic16f84
[16:21:54] <paul_c> http://www.hans-w.com/modular_cnc.htm
[16:22:36] <robin_sz> well ...
[16:22:43] <robin_sz> you seem confused
[16:22:55] <robin_sz> there are 3 things you need
[16:23:00] <robin_sz> 1 a controller
[16:23:04] <robin_sz> 2 a motor driver
[16:23:07] <robin_sz> 3 a motor
[16:23:16] <robin_sz> emc IS the controller
[16:23:58] <paul_c> www.rutex.com et al supply the motor drives
[16:24:56] <robin_sz> and motors ... well .. there are many sources
[16:25:08] <Beermann> okay am from denmark and i just have to remember how to think
[16:25:13] <robin_sz> :)
[16:25:49] <robin_sz> you can of course build your own motor drive if you want to
[16:26:02] <robin_sz> but .. its more expensive than buying a ready built one
[16:27:05] <Beermann> maybe but i really dont want to just sit back and just have i made i dont build the machine a body of mine do.. so i would like to build the driver
[16:28:36] <les_away> merry christmas all
[16:28:47] <paul_c> www.hans-w.com has some schematics for drivers
[16:29:14] <robin_sz> Beermann: ok, but I guarantee it will cost at least TWICE the amount you can buy one for AND it will not be as good
[16:29:58] <Beermann> that is the fun part of this projekt getting it to work ;)
[16:30:32] <les_away> les_away is now known as les
[16:31:56] <paul_c> http://www.embeddedtronics.com/ also has some designs...
[16:35:54] <robin_sz> well, I can tell you from seeing many people visit here with the same idea as you
[16:36:29] <robin_sz> about 50% and buy a pre-built one
[16:36:39] <robin_sz> the other 50% co and make something
[16:36:52] <robin_sz> either from datasheet or design on the web
[16:37:12] <robin_sz> then they throw it in the trash and buy a pre-built one
[16:37:17] <robin_sz> :)
[16:38:10] <robin_sz> the geckodrives are like 99 dollars and handle 7A at up to 80V ... reliable and well made
[16:38:23] <robin_sz> still .. each to their own.
[16:40:46] <les> about the only tronics I design and scratch build for fun is audio gear
[16:41:50] <Beermann> my stepper driver need only about 4 A at about 40 V
[16:42:38] <Beermann> but what is you history are you an tronic or a machine builder?
[16:43:34] <les> me? well I am an aero engineer...but I do a good bit of both those things
[16:43:41] <les> for a living
[16:44:03] <les> I just designed some stepper drivers for a client
[16:44:19] <les> used allegro chip...not much to it
[16:44:56] <Beermann> I am a tronic engineer... but have never worked with CNC...
[16:45:52] <les> well it's fun...but a lot of things-mechanical, electrical, and software all have to work
[16:46:32] <Beermann> I only need the driver the plan is to make it controlled by an avr chip
[16:46:41] <Beermann> with network interface
[16:46:42] <les> I am making a fair (not great) living using a cnc machine I designed and built
[16:46:47] <les> I see
[16:47:14] <les> current and voltage?
[16:47:28] <Beermann> 4-5 A 30-40 V
[16:47:48] <Beermann> Thats the plan for now
[16:47:54] <Beermann> but....
[16:48:29] <les> thompson L297/298?
[16:48:59] <Beermann> I have been looking at that one and found a diagram for it
[16:49:26] <les> think it will do 4 or 5 amps...forgot the voltage
[16:49:57] <les> for cnc I generally do all servo
[16:50:10] <Beermann> http://www.yty.net/cnc/Steppermotordriver.pdf
[16:50:19] <les> but these are not hooby/fun machines
[16:50:26] <les> hobby haha
[16:51:20] <Beermann> hehe
[16:52:03] <les> looks like a simple enough bipolar driver
[16:52:24] <Beermann> yeap and it should work with a unipolar to
[16:53:18] <les> well...if you enjoy putting together such things...Robin is right about the cost though
[16:53:57] <paul_c> That looks like an Elektor design...
[16:54:02] <Beermann> I know but i get most of my stuff for free... work at a school
[16:54:05] <Beermann> it is
[16:54:33] <les> I am hoping to take a break from circuits and sensors
[16:54:45] <Beermann> gege�
[16:54:52] <les> that encoder project really stressed me out
[16:55:12] <Beermann> oki
[16:55:16] <les> (a commercial product I designed for a client)
[16:55:40] <robin_sz> les: yeah I know .. I once set about designing and building 3 axes of H bridge stepper drives for myself
[16:55:57] <les> hope to take some time off and retrofit another cnc mill
[16:55:58] <robin_sz> les: I spent probably 3 months of spare evenings and over 600 pounds ...
[16:56:14] <robin_sz> robin_sz: and then I bought some alzanti drives :)
[16:56:22] <les> That is just like your project...I would be better off just buying one
[16:56:28] <robin_sz> les; mine worked, but I had a missing step problem from time to time
[16:56:38] <les> but I like to fix up or design machines
[16:56:48] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[16:56:54] <les> hmm
[16:57:11] <les> heh..one word: servo
[16:57:32] <robin_sz> just getting a machine built and working with all the software fiddles, mechanical stuff etc is hard enough without building your own drives
[16:57:50] <les> Oh I am doing a liitle analysis for dave on the cad list
[16:58:02] <les> for a belt drive plasma
[16:58:07] <robin_sz> heh :)
[16:58:28] <les> trying to find optimum gear ratio/motor size
[16:59:12] <robin_sz> so long as you know the mass of the gantry and the acceleration and top speed you need ...
[16:59:19] <les> many have said 10:1 or more with a lower torque higher speed motor haha
[16:59:38] <robin_sz> shrug
[16:59:38] <les> ...So I am giving some lessons in moment of inertia
[16:59:43] <robin_sz> servos or steppers?
[16:59:48] <les> servo
[17:00:27] <les> they do not realise that inertia goes as the SQUARE of the gear ratio
[17:00:30] <robin_sz> yeah, well, if quick response id what you need, keep the revs down and the torque up
[17:00:33] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[17:00:33] <les> reflected inertia
[17:00:42] <robin_sz> 1/2 mv^2
[17:01:22] <les> so that's one end...the other is direct drive with a large motor (underutilising power of course)
[17:01:37] <les> will find the optimum
[17:01:46] <les> bet it will be 2-4
[17:01:50] <les> ratio
[17:01:56] <robin_sz> what it comes down to is: amount moved per rev
[17:02:21] <robin_sz> so belt pulley is a big factor
[17:02:44] <robin_sz> I'll bet it come out at about 5mm per rev ;)
[17:02:47] <les> yeah...well I am using the motioneering software...just plug in all the masses, moments, friction, drivetrain etc
[17:03:07] <les> small belt pully is good I think
[17:03:19] <robin_sz> how small?
[17:03:26] <les> I figure 3 cm diam or so
[17:03:39] <robin_sz> sounds ... too small
[17:03:44] <les> as small as practicable
[17:04:24] <les> might have to be bigger...need to check the Gates belt data
[17:04:36] <robin_sz> you need to be able to mount it on the shaft .. and check the tooth loading
[17:04:48] <CIA-4> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/emc.ini: File changed. New revision:
[17:04:51] <les> the GT can transmit huge force on tiny belts
[17:05:08] <robin_sz> yeah .. you are missing one thing though.
[17:05:11] <les> would have to wrap around with idlers I guess
[17:05:17] <robin_sz> youngs modulus
[17:05:17] <les> ?
[17:05:47] <les> have data...the glass ones seem highest
[17:06:34] <les> of course I usually use ballscrews for stuff
[17:06:57] <les> but I still have that client wanting a very large plasma
[17:06:58] <robin_sz> wait till you have a 40kg gantry ... sure you only need 0.5g of accel .. but it draws a nice pretty damping pattern
[17:07:21] <robin_sz> belts or pinion/rack is the thing for plasma
[17:07:28] <robin_sz> ballscrew woud die in a week
[17:07:32] <les> yup
[17:07:55] <les> well the largest I have done is abut 7x7 meter
[17:08:01] <les> pick and place
[17:08:22] <les> I figure belt is the right choice
[17:08:44] <les> plasma seems a dirty process
[17:09:04] <les> prob muck up racks quickly without major protection
[17:09:20] <les> anyway you are the expert on that
[17:10:20] <les> I want a plasma for myself as well...but would be better off just buying one of yours
[17:10:27] <les> if it was sold here
[17:11:01] <les> I want one....do I need one?
[17:11:09] <les> well no but so what
[17:11:24] <les> haha
[17:11:27] <paul_c> wouldn't be much good on wood
[17:11:44] <les> haw
[17:12:43] <robin_sz> racks seem to survive OK
[17:12:46] <les> still struggling a bit about how much time I want to be a woodworker vs doing engineering
[17:13:01] <robin_sz> but .. we're talking 'rough' racks ... not 'precision' racks
[17:13:49] <les> I figure the lower cost unhardened ones (Browning etc) do not live long
[17:13:56] <les> right?
[17:14:35] <les> the good ones (Andantex) are prob great
[17:16:46] <robin_sz> whatever you get will be buggered in 6 months of hard use
[17:16:59] <robin_sz> so get low cost ones and make sure they run inverted :)
[17:17:42] <les> I am anxious to see how my router holds up to this continuous production
[17:17:50] <robin_sz> mount you drive pinion on a belt driven from near the pivot point, use a big spring to keep it pressed up against the rack
[17:18:54] <les> yup
[17:19:04] <robin_sz> my wife amazes me ...
[17:19:28] <robin_sz> so ... she seems to think its OK not to cook a full christmas meal
[17:19:53] <les> I am having a cookout
[17:20:02] <robin_sz> based on a really trivial excuse ...
[17:20:14] <les> ?
[17:20:33] <robin_sz> oh she claims ... and get this ..
[17:20:53] <robin_sz> just becasue shes been at work since 6:00am, shes tired ...
[17:21:09] <les> ha
[17:21:20] <robin_sz> and theres more ..
[17:21:35] <robin_sz> she also claims I could have started preparing the vegetables
[17:21:46] <les> I am sitting here having one of Paul's all time favorite dishes...
[17:21:52] <les> cheese grits
[17:21:59] <robin_sz> heh :)
[17:22:34] <robin_sz> still ... Ive tried to help her out
[17:23:10] <robin_sz> I'm just printing off a full christmas menu and cooking schedule that shows how it can be done in under 4 hours, if you plan it right ;))
[17:23:19] <les> hmm
[17:23:49] <les> actually...I had better start marinading the chicken...
[17:24:00] <les> cooking on cherry scraps of course
[17:24:03] <robin_sz> I'll let yo know how she reponds when I get back from the accident dept. ;)
[17:24:15] <les> ha
[17:24:16] <robin_sz> heh :) .. cherry smoked chicken
[17:24:38] <les> it's good
[17:25:06] <robin_sz> I need some cooking device that burns plastic toys
[17:25:21] <les> anyway 75% of the turkey call wood makes scrap
[17:25:31] <les> burns toys?
[17:25:40] <les> any common oven
[17:25:49] <robin_sz> I meant for useful heat
[17:26:11] <les> funny I have a fire going in here...burning walnut and cherry
[17:26:18] <les> scraps
[17:26:35] <les> and some white oak
[17:27:06] <robin_sz> oak burns so well
[17:27:07] <an0n> * an0n hates steppers
[17:27:26] <an0n> had to replace the Z axis with a stepper instead of a servo
[17:27:28] <les> lost a large white oak...many many tons
[17:27:32] <robin_sz> they have their uses ... IF you know how to use them
[17:27:47] <robin_sz> an0n: is it microstepped?
[17:27:47] <an0n> robin_sz: yeah if you can gear them 20:1
[17:27:56] <les> why stepper?
[17:28:08] <an0n> it sounds like crap on low speed
[17:28:21] <an0n> my servo died along with a geckodrive
[17:28:29] <robin_sz> microstep it with a gecko
[17:28:32] <les> oh
[17:28:43] <an0n> I do, but it still sounds lots compared to the servos..
[17:28:48] <les> what size?
[17:28:53] <an0n> small..
[17:29:06] <an0n> about 1nm
[17:29:20] <robin_sz> still 20nm after the gearbox
[17:29:25] <les> I sold servos for a while but they were big
[17:29:30] <robin_sz> thats to a leadscrew?
[17:29:35] <an0n> yeah
[17:29:39] <les> sold 96 of them at last count
[17:29:47] <robin_sz> 5mm pitch?
[17:29:50] <an0n> les: I saw that :) I was interested in buying one like that
[17:29:55] <an0n> err a couple
[17:30:05] <an0n> robin_sz: not at the z axis yet
[17:30:18] <les> I took the ad down we saved a few for spares though
[17:30:19] <an0n> robin_sz: just got everything togther I am gearing 6:1 right now
[17:30:34] <robin_sz> 6:1 into a leadscrew of what pitch?
[17:30:43] <an0n> I dont know the pitch since I am going to replace it..
[17:30:50] <an0n> I havent had my Z axis into parts yet
[17:30:56] <robin_sz> oh ok
[17:31:02] <an0n> but the motor's noisy..
[17:31:04] <an0n> :/
[17:31:09] <robin_sz> shrug
[17:31:16] <robin_sz> why is that a problem?
[17:31:26] <les> just stepper whine or bad bearings?
[17:31:32] <an0n> stepper whine
[17:31:38] <robin_sz> its going to be NOTHING compared to the spindle
[17:31:46] <an0n> my spindle's pretty silen
[17:31:47] <an0n> t
[17:31:49] <an0n> even at 6000rpm
[17:31:59] <robin_sz> wait till its cutting
[17:32:10] <les> my spindle makes a horrible noise
[17:32:13] <an0n> heh, I am using my machine..
[17:32:23] <an0n> it's louder then the stepper.. yeah
[17:32:27] <an0n> but it kind of annoys me
[17:32:32] <an0n> the servo's are all silent
[17:32:33] <an0n> :D
[17:32:38] <an0n> almost
[17:32:39] <robin_sz> I sort of like the sound of servos
[17:32:49] <robin_sz> sound like 1970's robit movies
[17:32:57] <robin_sz> robot even
[17:32:57] <an0n> it's comfortable compared to the stepper
[17:33:04] <les> mine make no sound at speed
[17:33:19] <an0n> :)
[17:33:35] <les> below 5 ipm or so you start to heaar the encoder ticks
[17:33:41] <an0n> ok :)
[17:33:52] <les> but I usually run at a couple hubdred
[17:33:56] <an0n> yeah
[17:34:00] <les> blah
[17:34:03] <an0n> I need to set my geckos up to 3x or somthing
[17:34:23] <an0n> 1000line encoders takes away pretty much speed
[17:35:03] <les> I use 500 line with 5mm screw pitch
[17:35:09] <les> x4 of course
[17:35:10] <an0n> I cant generate pulses over 25khz
[17:36:00] <les> I can go pretty fast but cannot due to lack of spindle power
[17:36:03] <an0n> 4x?
[17:36:20] <les> encoder interpolation
[17:36:37] <an0n> that sounds a bit low precision
[17:37:00] <les> one encoder tick is 2.5 micron
[17:37:11] <les> good enough for wood haha
[17:37:14] <an0n> ;)
[17:37:19] <an0n> yeah
[17:37:54] <les> I usually repeat positions to about 10-12 miccron
[17:37:59] <les> micron
[17:38:02] <an0n> I am investigating getting a better spindle..
[17:38:08] <les> me too...
[17:38:21] <an0n> but that'd mean replacing the bearings and having SKF restore it...
[17:38:27] <les> I need to go up to about 5kW or so
[17:38:29] <an0n> and it's a hobby mill.. heh
[17:38:40] <an0n> * an0n is at 1.25kw
[17:38:51] <an0n> but that isnt quite right
[17:39:02] <an0n> my vfd is nice :)
[17:39:33] <an0n> I dont expect the motor to last forever tho
[17:39:35] <les> I am at about 1800 and it's not enough. Costing me a lot of machine time
[17:39:50] <robin_sz> 1800 rpm?
[17:40:00] <les> Looking for a Colombo for a good price
[17:40:05] <les> 1800 watts
[17:40:15] <les> 21krpm
[17:40:19] <robin_sz> oh, thats not too bad
[17:40:29] <robin_sz> and you can push it to full chip load?
[17:40:38] <an0n> I found a company that sells 10k rpm spindles for about 571$
[17:40:39] <robin_sz> easily I presume
[17:41:11] <les> it is bad Robin...I can only run the turkey calls at 120 ipm
[17:41:25] <an0n> but I am milling alu so the main problem I have is cooling
[17:41:26] <robin_sz> coo.
[17:41:43] <robin_sz> les: thats a what, 0.5" cutter?
[17:42:27] <an0n> I usually dont run that fast, because of the geckos..
[17:42:32] <les> there are six tools...some custom, but also 0.5 and 0.575 carbide spiral downcut
[17:42:46] <robin_sz> right
[17:42:58] <robin_sz> and you run out of power?
[17:43:21] <les> I might get limited by emc as well...it does not blend G2 moves
[17:43:27] <les> yes run out of power
[17:43:41] <an0n> well I'll be back in a bit
[17:43:46] <an0n> laters everyone
[17:43:47] <an0n> :)
[17:43:48] <les> ok later
[17:44:24] <les> A Columbo 5 or 7 hp run at 400 Hz is what I need
[17:44:35] <les> or even 12
[17:44:47] <robin_sz> I ran a dewalt 625 3hp router
[17:45:02] <les> yup 1800W also
[17:45:10] <robin_sz> 2200
[17:45:20] <les> hmm
[17:45:47] <les> I run a Porter Cable 3 1/4 hp motor
[17:45:52] <les> just not enough
[17:46:15] <les> (really less than 2 hp)
[17:46:17] <robin_sz> the dewalt has a mag pickup in the speed controller
[17:46:38] <les> The PC uses ir comp...not very good
[17:46:48] <robin_sz> really kicks in when the load comes on
[17:46:56] <robin_sz> maintains constant speed
[17:47:04] <robin_sz> I was impressed with the power output too
[17:47:11] <les> actually I just bought a Melexis hall chip to do that
[17:47:39] <robin_sz> shrug .. the dewalt is only 229 USD complete ...
[17:47:54] <robin_sz> noisy bugger though :)
[17:48:02] <les> Well yes the 3 hp routers are powerful...it's just that I am getting beyond that
[17:48:14] <robin_sz> yeah
[17:48:28] <robin_sz> like you say, a 5 or 7hp spindly would be nice
[17:48:52] <les> it would half or quarter the machining time
[17:49:00] <robin_sz> but if its costing you time, a cheap but powerful 3hp machine might payfor itself while you are thinking about the ideal solution
[17:50:02] <robin_sz> running say, 5 thou chip load at 22,000 rpm ..
[17:50:11] <les> well I am on ebay looking for a deal...I made my machine robust enough to swing 20 HP or so if I needed it
[17:50:15] <robin_sz> 110 ipm ...
[17:50:54] <les> well that is close to the 120 I am running
[17:50:56] <robin_sz> so you'll eith have to use big cutters or much higher rpm to utilise that power
[17:51:15] <robin_sz> whats max recomended chip size for wood?
[17:51:25] <robin_sz> 10 thou?
[17:51:27] <les> Generally very high chip loads are used with those things
[17:51:34] <robin_sz> 20 thou?
[17:51:42] <les> often 40
[17:51:45] <robin_sz> coo
[17:51:47] <les> !!
[17:52:02] <robin_sz> * robin_sz wonders what the axis forces are like
[17:52:30] <les> the mdf guys run at 1000 ipm 24000 with 0.5 end mill
[17:52:56] <robin_sz> mdf, sure, no problem
[17:53:00] <les> forces are big...but I have 2200 lbs here...so no worries
[17:53:06] <robin_sz> its not going to break out
[17:53:27] <les> I am doing cracker panels
[17:53:28] <robin_sz> that sort of force on a small part could spell disaster though
[17:54:03] <les> well things are heavily clamped (for me)
[17:54:14] <robin_sz> cracker panels? ... pieces left in on bridges?
[17:54:29] <les> right
[17:54:45] <les> pop the calls out
[17:54:46] <robin_sz> 'k
[17:54:56] <les> the rest is for cooking chicken!
[17:55:00] <robin_sz> heh
[17:55:15] <robin_sz> would you get more out with a smaller endmill?
[17:55:21] <robin_sz> like 0.25?
[17:55:31] <les> the 4 web bridges are about 1.5 mm thick
[17:55:43] <les> I use that for drilling
[17:56:03] <les> actually using 1" for a lot of the work
[17:56:04] <robin_sz> how many you done now?
[17:56:28] <robin_sz> yeah a 1" on a 2hp spindle will begin to feel the strain
[17:56:38] <les> only a hudred fifty or so (the initial order)
[17:56:50] <les> now have an order for 3000
[17:56:55] <robin_sz> * robin_sz wonders how many hp 0.5" at 1000ipm in mdf actually uses
[17:57:07] <les> 25 or so
[17:57:11] <robin_sz> coo.
[17:57:23] <robin_sz> he has a load meter on the spindle?
[17:57:43] <les> but I am not in that busting up mdf business anyway
[17:58:17] <les> calculated from current draw
[17:59:08] <les> they run pc diamond red hot
[17:59:10] <robin_sz> ach, you should have had that perske
[17:59:16] <robin_sz> heh :)
[17:59:21] <les> yeah
[17:59:32] <robin_sz> yeah chips=coolant at those feeds
[17:59:37] <les> just afraid it was buggered beyond repair
[18:00:10] <robin_sz> you can always stick it back on ebay
[18:00:16] <les> would LOVE auto tool change
[18:00:47] <les> 6 changes are a bit much but needed it to cut sanding labor
[18:01:26] <les> I bet I will wear out the bearings in the router in a matter of days or weeks
[18:01:51] <les> better get some spares on hand
[18:02:15] <paul_c> is danfalck here to stay ?
[18:02:35] <danfalck> merry Christmas!
[18:03:03] <danfalck> I'm here for a bit. The kids are getting impatient...
[18:03:19] <robin_sz> les: ooh looky a 7.5 hp colombo spindle on ebay
[18:03:31] <robin_sz> merry christmas to you too!
[18:04:44] <les> checking...
[18:04:51] <robin_sz> les: I see EXACTLY what you need :)
[18:04:53] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3861468641&rd=1
[18:07:02] <robin_sz> oh and TWO 12hp colombo at 250 dollars each
[18:07:07] <robin_sz> the place is full of them :)
[18:08:56] <les> hmm high price on the accu router
[18:09:09] <les> rebuilt after only 4 months???
[18:09:20] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3862085270
[18:09:25] <robin_sz> and that?
[18:09:38] <robin_sz> buy now 350 ...
[18:10:18] <robin_sz> heh ... check this guys store:
[18:10:20] <robin_sz> http://stores.ebay.com/NEMI-Industrial-Store_W0QQsspagenameZl2QQtZkm
[18:10:29] <robin_sz> he has at least 20 spindles on there !!
[18:10:50] <les> Oh I have NEMI long bookmarked
[18:11:16] <les> he does charge flat $250 added for "shipping"
[18:12:07] <les> he had some 3, 5, and 7 hp but has sold most of the good ones
[18:12:30] <les> at the time I did not have a production job so did not buy one
[18:12:36] <les> should have
[18:12:56] <les> I think there are a few 7 hp left
[18:15:50] <les> nope...all gone
[18:16:17] <les> oops grandma called...better get to the kitchen now myself
[18:16:26] <robin_sz> theres one 7hp komo. new, no drawbar
[18:16:36] <robin_sz> buts its 5k
[18:16:38] <les> missed it
[18:16:44] <les> oh...
[18:17:06] <les> I might go 1500 for a new one
[18:17:32] <les> the used ones are bad I'll bet
[18:17:47] <robin_sz> yeah .. possibly
[18:17:52] <robin_sz> bearings I guess
[18:18:16] <les> yup...which can be had but may not be easy to install
[18:18:36] <les> Need to have a talk with a rebuilder
[18:18:58] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3862085382
[18:19:04] <robin_sz> looks nice enough for the money
[18:19:46] <robin_sz> but you need toolchange
[18:19:47] <an0n> * an0n is considering building a router
[18:20:00] <an0n> 4 axis one
[18:20:13] <robin_sz> 4! axis?
[18:20:22] <an0n> yeah
[18:20:28] <robin_sz> 5 I can imagien as useful
[18:20:29] <les> wonder what bearings? 2 7205 abec 7 angulars in front?
[18:20:45] <an0n> err I meant 5
[18:20:47] <robin_sz> les: nothing exotic I suspect
[18:20:49] <les> or 7305
[18:20:58] <an0n> got some work to do for some fibreglass molds..
[18:21:10] <les> ah moldmaking...fun
[18:21:13] <an0n> and I need like 4x4 space :)
[18:21:19] <an0n> 4x4m
[18:21:20] <robin_sz> angular contsct for sure Id say .. rollers wont take the speed i think
[18:21:23] <an0n> and no precision at all..
[18:21:36] <an0n> will be hand finished anyway
[18:21:40] <les> 4x4 meter...wow
[18:21:47] <robin_sz> and Z axis?
[18:21:53] <an0n> maybe 1m
[18:22:04] <an0n> car bodywork..
[18:22:10] <les> hey off to the kitchen for me...back in a while
[18:22:19] <robin_sz> go buy some 350mm I section iron
[18:22:25] <an0n> yeah..
[18:22:36] <robin_sz> and some BIG slides :)
[18:22:41] <an0n> hehe
[18:22:48] <an0n> you mean linear slides?
[18:22:53] <an0n> expensive ^_^
[18:23:03] <an0n> I found a good company that sells stuff like that over here
[18:23:24] <an0n> the spindle can be air powered..
[18:23:39] <an0n> since I'll be milling foam
[18:23:42] <an0n> one off stuff :)
[18:23:45] <robin_sz> sure
[18:24:02] <robin_sz> hiwin are good for slides
[18:24:04] <robin_sz> cheap
[18:24:12] <an0n> www.sollectro.se
[18:24:22] <an0n> err..
[18:24:52] <an0n> cant remember the url
[18:24:52] <an0n> :)
[18:25:13] <robin_sz> right .. time to pay attention to the kids ..
[18:25:17] <an0n> ah ok
[18:25:18] <an0n> laters
[18:25:19] <robin_sz> it is christmas after all :)
[18:25:19] <an0n> :)
[18:25:22] <an0n> I am off to eat dinner
[18:25:23] <an0n> yeah
[18:25:26] <an0n> * an0n is at a lan part
[18:25:30] <robin_sz> you are in .se?
[18:25:31] <an0n> christmas was yesterday over here
[18:25:33] <an0n> yeah
[18:25:48] <robin_sz> so .. what sort of fish are you going to eat for dinner?
[18:25:55] <an0n> lol
[18:26:01] <an0n> a "skrovm�l"
[18:26:07] <an0n> ;)
[18:26:10] <an0n> fast food
[18:26:13] <an0n> togther with friend
[18:26:15] <robin_sz> heh
[18:26:18] <robin_sz> enjoy
[18:26:21] <an0n> yeah I will
[18:26:25] <robin_sz> * robin_sz is away: I'm busy
[18:26:27] <an0n> have a nice christmas
[18:26:30] <an0n> :)
[18:26:31] <robin_sz> you too!
[18:26:34] <an0n> thanks
[18:26:35] <an0n> :)
[18:26:36] <an0n> I will
[18:26:44] <an0n> * an0n is gone
[19:25:09] <alex_joni> hello
[19:26:59] <alex_joni> anyone around?
[19:28:02] <danfalck> hi
[19:30:15] <alex_joni> hey dan
[19:35:56] <danfalck> alex_joni: where are you located?
[19:36:22] <alex_joni> romania
[19:37:45] <danfalck> you do a lot of development?
[19:38:04] <alex_joni> not really... I try thou..
[19:38:24] <alex_joni> I did some work on the autoconf (emc2)
[19:38:43] <danfalck> Do you have EMC machines cutting metal?
[19:38:51] <alex_joni> not yet
[19:39:06] <danfalck> I don't right now either. Used to.
[19:39:15] <alex_joni> only running some motors so far
[19:41:27] <danfalck> I've been rebuilding my shop. We moved this year.
[19:42:22] <danfalck> I'm looking forward to trying out Paul's new BDI with some machines.
[19:43:00] <danfalck> It sounds like it will be another good release.
[19:47:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hopes that too
[19:54:15] <alex_joni> danfalk: where are you located?
[19:55:47] <danfalck> portland, Oregon, USA
[19:56:40] <alex_joni> how's the weather there?
[19:56:48] <alex_joni> any chance of white christmas?
[19:57:07] <danfalck> light rain and fog
[19:57:20] <danfalck> not much chance of snow here now
[19:58:03] <danfalck> Have you tried out Axis yet?
[19:59:22] <alex_joni> when it was released
[19:59:29] <alex_joni> liked it somehow
[19:59:46] <danfalck> I like the fact that it's written in Python
[19:59:52] <alex_joni> there are some things I do like, and some I don't
[19:59:57] <danfalck> I haven't tried it yet though
[20:00:04] <alex_joni> * alex_joni doesn't care in what it's written
[20:00:14] <alex_joni> I don't like the toyish look
[20:00:24] <alex_joni> doesn't really look like an machine-controller
[20:00:25] <alex_joni> ;)
[20:00:30] <alex_joni> but I love the preview
[20:00:41] <danfalck> Oh, it looks like a computer application
[20:02:17] <alex_joni> that's debateable :-)
[20:03:37] <danfalck> it's funny how all the Fanuc controls at work are very simple and work well enough
[20:04:02] <danfalck> they have buttons placed under and around the screen
[20:04:39] <danfalck> at some point, I will try to hook up some buttons like that
[20:04:46] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
[20:04:58] <alex_joni> I still plan to make a plasma cutter
[20:05:00] <alex_joni> with emc
[20:05:04] <alex_joni> maybe a touchscreen
[20:05:20] <alex_joni> and some buttons like the one you were talking about
[20:05:33] <danfalck> I have a big red mushroom switch that I will hook up for E-stop too.
[20:05:36] <alex_joni> * alex_joni doesn't like the idea of a keyboard & mouse
[20:05:49] <alex_joni> I have some E-Stop switches
[20:06:12] <danfalck> The computer keyboard is nice when it's time to upload a program or do some editing,
[20:06:24] <danfalck> but while running the machine it needs to be simple
[20:06:37] <alex_joni> yeah... but to be usefull you need an industrial type
[20:07:02] <danfalck> I would like to hide the keyboard until it's needed.
[20:07:18] <danfalck> store it under a panel, behind a door...
[20:07:56] <danfalck> I used to have an engraving machine that ran 2 programs only
[20:08:04] <danfalck> with EMC controlling
[20:08:21] <danfalck> power up machine, home, run, shut off machine
[20:08:34] <alex_joni> nice
[20:08:41] <alex_joni> mouse operated?
[20:09:06] <danfalck> I was using Xemc. It had a mouse, but I used the hot keys mostly.
[20:09:30] <danfalck> I don't care for a mouse near machines, but so far I always need to have one.
[20:10:00] <danfalck> If I can get my act together next time, I will make the Gui mouseless.
[20:10:51] <danfalck> Chips under the mouse are hard to deal with...
[20:10:58] <alex_joni> AXIS is supposed to work on keyboard only
[20:11:02] <danfalck> good
[20:11:08] <alex_joni> get an optical trackball
[20:11:33] <danfalck> yes that would work
[20:11:49] <alex_joni> or a rugged touchpad
[20:12:24] <danfalck> I like to tinker with things a lot. I will go for the hard buttons this spring.
[20:12:45] <alex_joni> * alex_joni planned to use an SBC for the controller
[20:12:54] <alex_joni> but the one I have is a 300 MHz Geode
[20:13:02] <alex_joni> and it's struggling with tkEmc
[20:13:35] <danfalck> I just bought a nice industrial NEMA box to enclose the drives and power supply in
[20:13:45] <alex_joni> got a link?
[20:13:52] <danfalck> but will keep the computer seperate to make things flexible
[20:14:10] <danfalck> I bought the box from a guy at surplusgizmos.com
[20:14:55] <danfalck> he has 6 more. 24 inches square 6 inches deep. big power switch on side.
[20:15:44] <danfalck> If we didn't have EMC running in X your computer would probably work fine.
[20:16:33] <alex_joni> X runs fine ...
[20:16:45] <alex_joni> so does tkEmc, but with a low number for PERIOD
[20:17:31] <danfalck> hi john
[20:17:48] <jmkasunich> Merry Christmas!
[20:18:09] <danfalck> how's the snow in your area?
[20:18:38] <jmkasunich> about a foot (more where it's been plowed or drifted)
[20:18:56] <danfalck> Wow, a really white Christmas!
[20:19:06] <jmkasunich> yeah
[20:19:37] <jmkasunich> Wed/Thur we got about 6 inches of really wet slushy stuff, it was a bear to clear
[20:20:31] <alex_joni> hello john
[20:20:45] <jmkasunich> Hi alex
[20:20:46] <alex_joni> Merry Christmas
[20:20:59] <jmkasunich> I thought you were going to the mountains?
[20:21:07] <alex_joni> on tuesday
[20:21:18] <jmkasunich> oh
[20:21:23] <alex_joni> still counting down
[20:21:26] <alex_joni> ;-)
[20:21:35] <danfalck> which mountains?
[20:21:36] <alex_joni> I gotta attend a wedding tomorrow
[20:21:48] <alex_joni> * alex_joni searches for a link
[20:22:46] <danfalck> John, we were just discussing guis, physical buttons, and Tkemc/Axis/X
[20:23:21] <danfalck> the Fanuc controls at the place where I work have hard buttons around the screens
[20:23:21] <jmkasunich> sounds interesting
[20:23:31] <jmkasunich> physical buttons as in pendants and such?
[20:23:38] <alex_joni> yeah... mostly wishfull thinking
[20:23:44] <danfalck> sort of
[20:23:45] <alex_joni> buttons around the screen
[20:23:52] <alex_joni> mapped to various functions
[20:23:56] <alex_joni> like in some LCD's
[20:24:09] <alex_joni> maybe some will get implemented
[20:24:13] <jmkasunich> oh, you mean where the button function is displayed next to it on the screen?
[20:24:18] <danfalck> I hate having keyboards and mice in the shop
[20:24:21] <danfalck> yes
[20:24:39] <danfalck> chips create problems
[20:24:47] <danfalck> cords hanging everywhere
[20:24:52] <jmkasunich> buttons next to the screen are one step away from touchscreens
[20:24:57] <alex_joni> * alex_joni googled but founf no usefull links
[20:25:07] <alex_joni> danfalk: they are called semenic mountains
[20:25:12] <danfalck> alex suggested trackball- good idea
[20:25:13] <alex_joni> around 1400m high
[20:25:20] <danfalck> nice
[20:25:27] <danfalck> are you going skiing?
[20:26:25] <danfalck> touchscreens are nice. I plan on tinkering with actual buttons for my next setup.
[20:26:40] <danfalck> Ray had some mapped out with Tkemc at one time.
[20:26:56] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/poze/garana/page_11.htm
[20:27:07] <alex_joni> I hope I'll have snow this year
[20:27:16] <jmkasunich> the distinction to me is that touchscreens and buttons next to the screen with onscreen labels both can change functions
[20:27:32] <jmkasunich> where pendants and other "hard" controls usually each button does only one thing
[20:27:57] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has seen pendants with displays
[20:28:00] <danfalck> alex_joni: looks like fun!
[20:28:03] <alex_joni> even touch screen ones
[20:28:10] <alex_joni> yeah
[20:28:28] <jmkasunich> the difference between fun snow and pain-in-the-ass snow:
[20:28:31] <alex_joni> the new robot controls we use, don't have a display on the cabinet anymore
[20:28:34] <danfalck> on Fanuc they call it "softkeys"
[20:28:44] <jmkasunich> fun snow, you drive to, and when you're done having fun you drive away
[20:28:57] <jmkasunich> pain-in-the-ass snow, you live in, and drive thru, every day
[20:29:01] <danfalck> the hard buttons are located next to the screen w/ label on screen
[20:29:05] <alex_joni> they only have a pendant with some 30 buttons(hard wired) and a 8'' touch screen
[20:29:33] <danfalck> label changes for different functions
[20:29:35] <alex_joni> you can place the pendant on the cabinet and use it as a screen, and type using a keyboard on the cabinet
[20:29:41] <danfalck> w/ shift key etc
[20:30:08] <danfalck> the buttons are very close to the bottom of screen
[20:30:11] <alex_joni> it's actually a SBC running doze (yuck) with LAN connected to the actual robot-controller
[20:30:30] <alex_joni> dan: I designed some LCD's like that
[20:31:35] <danfalck> John, when I was running an engraving shop w/ EMC I had some machines that ran only 2 programs
[20:31:49] <alex_joni> using the SBC-pendant approach: I could imagine sending NML over network
[20:32:01] <danfalck> I rarely had to do much typing or mousing.
[20:32:20] <danfalck> just load program, home, run, etc...
[20:32:38] <jmkasunich> so you only need a few buttons
[20:32:46] <danfalck> I want to hide the keyboard until it's absolutely needed.
[20:33:24] <jmkasunich> HAL provides a way to get signals from buttons or knobs into user space, where a GUI can access them
[20:33:36] <danfalck> I remember chips all over the place near my router.
[20:34:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni just gave AXIS another go
[20:34:08] <danfalck> Good.
[20:34:49] <alex_joni> yeah
[20:35:02] <alex_joni> I plan to follow paul's advice now
[20:35:11] <alex_joni> tryto create a .def for emc1 using autoconf
[20:35:16] <danfalck> I will try Axis out next week.
[20:35:28] <danfalck> I need to try EMC2 out also...
[20:36:32] <alex_joni> * alex_joni thinks you'll like emc2
[20:36:46] <alex_joni> axis is a bit hard to set up using emc2 only
[20:36:51] <alex_joni> it's crafted for emc1
[20:36:56] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: you going to be doing anything that needs the compile farm next week?
[20:37:06] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking about shutting it down while we're away
[20:37:09] <alex_joni> but once built, it's pretty easy to use with emc2
[20:37:13] <alex_joni> jmk: go ahead
[20:37:21] <alex_joni> I'll be away too
[20:37:38] <alex_joni> I only plan to read some NML info & such over the holidays
[20:37:44] <jmkasunich> I wonder if anyone actually uses it much?
[20:38:01] <alex_joni> right now not anymore
[20:38:12] <alex_joni> but it was very usefull during the autoconf development
[20:38:17] <alex_joni> to me at least
[20:38:36] <alex_joni> maybe you'll install the new BDI on it next year
[20:38:50] <danfalck> John, do you have a website?
[20:38:52] <alex_joni> then we'll have to work on emc2 & autoconf to make it 2.6 ready
[20:39:07] <danfalck> alex_joni: do you have web site also?
[20:39:28] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: BDI 4.x will be on it once it is more stable
[20:39:39] <jmkasunich> danfalck: sort of
[20:40:01] <danfalck> can I check it out?
[20:40:34] <jmkasunich> there are two things there:
[20:40:41] <alex_joni> http://www.juve.ro/
[20:40:57] <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Home.htm
[20:41:09] <jmkasunich> which hasn't been updated since 2003
[20:41:09] <alex_joni> a little bit outdated
[20:41:22] <alex_joni> * alex_joni was talking about his site ;)
[20:41:42] <jmkasunich> and http://home.att.net/~JEKasunich/vannorman/VN_Home.htm
[20:42:13] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich was talking about his
[20:42:15] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[20:42:32] <alex_joni> ;-)
[20:42:42] <alex_joni> one more thing on the to-do list
[20:42:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni will run out of space because of his to-do list
[20:42:59] <alex_joni> :-)
[20:43:27] <jmkasunich> the stuff on my emc docs page was my first attempt to understand emc
[20:43:28] <danfalck> thanks, I'm checking them all out.
[20:43:52] <jmkasunich> whatever parts are usefull should be added to cvs/documents
[20:45:13] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders who Brian Pitt is...
[20:45:33] <jmkasunich> ?
[20:46:12] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/handbook/fileref/index.html
[20:46:55] <jmkasunich> dunno...
[20:47:39] <danfalck> me neither....
[20:47:56] <jmkasunich> I tried to look at that documentation once, made my head spin
[20:48:38] <alex_joni> jmk: I had a go at doxygen last week
[20:48:45] <alex_joni> it produced some nice graphs
[20:49:05] <alex_joni>
[20:49:23] <alex_joni> dunno if it's working right now (had some problems with the net-connection)
[20:51:48] <danfalck> whose's domain?
[20:52:19] <alex_joni> it's a wireless link
[20:52:48] <danfalck> I went up the line to the /emcstuff/
[20:53:03] <danfalck> trying to look at a jpeg now...
[20:53:14] <jmkasunich> not working very well right now... got a simple page that says "libnml documentation", but the links across the top seem to cause timeouts
[20:53:18] <danfalck> it's taking a while
[20:53:37] <danfalck> can see part of tkemc backplot
[20:53:40] <alex_joni> it's dropping a lot of packages
[20:53:51] <alex_joni> yeah that was a X-forward on a doze box
[20:54:01] <alex_joni> jmk:
[20:54:07] <alex_joni> keep retrying
[20:54:41] <alex_joni> * alex_joni tries something
[21:00:36] <alex_joni> seems one of the ap's is hung
[21:00:40] <jmkasunich> still getting timeouts
[21:00:42] <alex_joni> * alex_joni needs to restart it
[21:00:55] <alex_joni> I'll have to go there... probably on monday
[21:04:23] <jmkasunich> my "mission" for today is to get a BDI installed on a laptop
[21:04:31] <alex_joni> Live?
[21:04:35] <alex_joni> or the new one?
[21:04:40] <jmkasunich> probably TNG
[21:04:53] <jmkasunich> Live needs more power than I've got on any machine here
[21:04:58] <alex_joni> I see
[21:04:58] <jmkasunich> bloatware
[21:05:07] <alex_joni> but installed it should run
[21:05:10] <alex_joni> what laptop?
[21:05:45] <jmkasunich> Dell Latitude CP
[21:05:54] <jmkasunich> dumpster special
[21:06:19] <jmkasunich> 266MHz tops, maybe only 200
[21:06:36] <alex_joni> huh
[21:06:46] <alex_joni> ;-)
[21:06:56] <jmkasunich> It's got some flavor of doze on it, 95 or 98... I have a spare HDD around, gonna swap it out
[21:09:18] <alex_joni> 2.5'' ?
[21:10:04] <jmkasunich> yeah
[21:10:10] <jmkasunich> also from the dumpster ;-)
[21:10:35] <jmkasunich> I hope they match, they're from Compaq laptops
[21:10:50] <jmkasunich> I guess I should get busy with that
[21:11:15] <jmkasunich> (it's gonna take me 20 mins just to clear a spot on my bench to set the laptop)
[21:11:59] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is running ./configure on emc1 ;)
[21:12:49] <jmkasunich> alex joni is a brave man
[21:13:07] <alex_joni> * alex_joni doesn't dare to compile thou :-)
[21:13:19] <paul_c> alex_joni: Want me to take a look ?
[21:13:38] <alex_joni> paul_c: I'll let you know when I have something working
[21:13:52] <jmkasunich> afternoon Paul
[21:14:10] <alex_joni> right now I only took the autoconf stuff from emc2 and created a linux-auto.def.in & rt-auto.def.in
[21:14:22] <alex_joni> still need some work on these files
[21:14:53] <paul_c> Hi John...
[21:15:08] <paul_c> alex_joni: realtime.def & nonrealtime.def
[21:16:08] <alex_joni> sounds ok to me
[21:16:13] <alex_joni> those don't exist yet
[21:16:50] <paul_c> And that is what the scripts & stuff should be using in the EMC tree..
[21:17:40] <alex_joni> should I clean up all those DEBUG,WARN, etc ifdefs?
[21:17:52] <alex_joni> or somebody actually uses those?
[21:18:08] <paul_c> point me to an example..
[21:18:20] <alex_joni> ifdef OPTIMIZE
[21:18:26] <alex_joni> ifndef OPTIMIZE_FLAG
[21:18:35] <alex_joni> OPTIMIZE_FLAG=-O2
[21:18:38] <alex_joni> endif
[21:18:39] <alex_joni> endif
[21:18:49] <alex_joni> who defines OPTIMIZE?
[21:18:59] <alex_joni> -O2 already gets set in the RTFLAGS
[21:19:16] <alex_joni> another one:
[21:19:22] <alex_joni> ifndef NO_DEBUG
[21:19:35] <alex_joni> ifndef DEGUG_FLAG (notice the DEGUG)
[21:19:44] <alex_joni> DEBUG_FLAG = -g
[21:19:48] <alex_joni> endif
[21:19:48] <alex_joni> endif
[21:20:15] <alex_joni> * alex_joni used linux_rtai.def and rtai.def as templates
[21:20:31] <alex_joni> modifying those to be used with any rt
[21:20:54] <paul_c> OPTIMIZE & NO_DEBUG are command line flags passed at invocation of make
[21:21:24] <alex_joni> ifdef FOR_EXPORT_FROM_NIST
[21:22:01] <paul_c> Not needed for most builds
[21:22:10] <alex_joni> agreed
[21:22:27] <alex_joni> who does DEBUG_LINKING?
[21:24:36] <paul_c> Handy if there is a linking error..
[21:27:52] <jmkasunich> paul_c: do you know of a website that lists compatible graphics cards, driver info, etc?
[21:28:21] <paul_c> www.tomshardware.com
[21:28:24] <jmkasunich> for instance, winblows says this laptop has a "NeoMagic MagicGraph 128XD" adapter
[21:28:48] <jmkasunich> tom's covers linux drivers?
[21:28:54] <paul_c> If in doubt, use the vesa driver for X
[21:29:03] <jmkasunich> ok
[21:29:22] <alex_joni> or fb
[21:29:35] <alex_joni> framebuffer
[21:29:40] <jmkasunich> RC46 won't install with 128M will it?
[21:32:17] <paul_c> Doubt it..
[21:32:30] <alex_joni> no text-only install?
[21:32:46] <paul_c> alex_joni: framebuffer only works if the correct kernel modules exist.
[21:33:03] <alex_joni> I usually build it along with the kernel
[21:33:12] <jmkasunich> I'm probably gonna use TNG anyway - that's what I'm accustomed to
[21:33:20] <alex_joni> and use it for the primary text console too
[21:34:09] <jmkasunich> the laptop is PII-266, 128MB, 2MB video, 1024x786 LCD, 3.2G disk w/W98 on it
[21:35:04] <paul_c> http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/
[21:36:54] <alex_joni> meep?
[21:37:05] <paul_c> http://hardware.redhat.com/hcl/?pagename=hcl&view=quicksearch#results
[21:39:06] <jmkasunich> thanks paul
[21:39:31] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks in his box of HDDs
[21:40:16] <alex_joni> paul: do you happen to know when RCS_LIB_SEARCH_PATH is used?
[21:40:53] <paul_c> yes
[21:41:24] <jmkasunich> why did I keep this?
[21:41:34] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich tosses 810MB 2.5" HDD in the trash
[21:41:50] <paul_c> did it work ?
[21:42:00] <jmkasunich> dunno
[21:42:08] <alex_joni> 810 MB should be enough for an emc system
[21:42:10] <jmkasunich> but I have a 3240MB one
[21:42:18] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is running on a 1G hdd
[21:42:21] <alex_joni> with devel
[21:42:44] <paul_c> * paul_c has a 256M cf for the next install
[21:42:52] <alex_joni> paul: care to share the knowledge?
[21:43:05] <paul_c> plug card in...
[21:43:09] <alex_joni> paul: do you happen to know when RCS_LIB_SEARCH_PATH is used?
[21:43:16] <jmkasunich> nice
[21:43:45] <paul_c> Linking stage for certain apps.
[21:43:57] <alex_joni> ok.. enough for me ;)
[21:44:02] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich puts the 810MB back in the box of dumpster pickings, takes out the 3240MB one
[21:44:23] <paul_c> Oh ffs... bloody fireworks now..
[21:44:30] <alex_joni> lol
[21:44:33] <paul_c> Where's the Lions
[21:44:34] <alex_joni> I had that all day
[21:44:54] <alex_joni> * alex_joni bought some big fireworks for new years
[21:45:00] <paul_c> * paul_c has had burgler alarms all damned day.
[21:45:21] <jmkasunich> sounds like Paul is even more Scroogey than I am ;-)
[21:45:22] <alex_joni> about 40 cm long rockets (8cm diameter) with a 1.5m wooden tail
[21:45:45] <paul_c> * paul_c can think of somewhere to stick one of those..
[21:46:10] <alex_joni> hmmm...
[21:46:40] <paul_c> it will suprise that fairy when it goes up..
[21:46:47] <alex_joni> lol
[21:46:55] <alex_joni> how about when it explodes?
[21:47:09] <paul_c> Yes..;}
[21:47:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni really likes this: if test ${USER} != "Shackleford"; then ; exit 0; fi
[21:48:21] <paul_c> You looking at one of those shell scripts...
[21:48:26] <alex_joni> yeah
[21:48:38] <alex_joni> I'm all over rcslib/etc/ now
[21:48:40] <paul_c> * paul_c recalls adding that line for some reason
[21:49:25] <paul_c> Oh yes... Some screwball halfarsed foo Will was doing that broke for everyone else.
[21:49:33] <alex_joni> yeah: Virtually everything beyond this point screws up builds on themajority (read "all) standard RT linux boxes.
[21:49:55] <paul_c> a subtle hint...
[21:49:58] <alex_joni> lol
[21:50:08] <alex_joni> good for figuring things out though
[21:50:40] <jmkasunich> I'm always saying we need more documentation ;-)
[21:50:47] <alex_joni> short question:
[21:50:52] <alex_joni> what's correct:
[21:50:56] <alex_joni> a. HAVE_RTAI
[21:50:59] <alex_joni> b. USE_RTAI
[21:51:06] <alex_joni> c. HAVE_RTAI=YES
[21:51:11] <alex_joni> d. HAVE_RTAI=1
[21:51:17] <alex_joni> because I've seen them all
[21:51:21] <robin_sz> a or b
[21:51:29] <robin_sz> not c or d
[21:51:30] <alex_joni> e. -DRTAI
[21:52:08] <paul_c> HAVE_RTAI
[21:52:20] <alex_joni> ok, that's what I used
[21:52:39] <alex_joni> I assume the other would be HAVE_RTL
[21:52:47] <paul_c> Tip: If al you are doing is moving ./configure over to rcslib/etc
[21:52:49] <alex_joni> not HAVE_RTLINUX
[21:52:56] <robin_sz> I could possibly see RT_KERNEL=RTAI or RT_KERNEL=RTLINUX ...
[21:53:08] <paul_c> ignore all the shell scripts and crap
[21:53:18] <alex_joni> I AM IGNORING THOSE
[21:53:21] <alex_joni> ;-)
[21:53:36] <alex_joni> don't want to get them executed every bloody time
[21:53:50] <alex_joni> ./configure executed once is enough
[21:54:22] <jmkasunich> damn... "primary hard disk drive 0 not found"
[21:54:34] <alex_joni> is it jumpered ok?
[21:54:44] <jmkasunich> have to take it back out and look
[21:54:48] <alex_joni> do you hear it power up?
[21:55:16] <jmkasunich> can't tell... my bench is next to the furnace and the compile farm...
[21:55:40] <robin_sz> note for eurpean readers: furnace => central heating boiler
[21:55:55] <paul_c> RIGHT - I'm going to do something nasty to a Fairy (read queer)..
[21:55:56] <jmkasunich> except it's force hot air, with a noisy blower
[21:56:19] <robin_sz> in the UK furnace is used only in an industrial context
[21:56:20] <alex_joni> lol
[21:56:30] <alex_joni> I thought you want to burn things at home
[21:56:54] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hands paul_c one of those rockets
[21:59:08] <alex_joni> hmmmm...
[21:59:16] <alex_joni> I actually started compiling rcslib
[21:59:33] <alex_joni> with the autoconf def
[22:01:30] <jmkasunich> much better (jumper was wrong)
[22:02:04] <jmkasunich> the dumpster HDD has W95 one it... the guy at work whose job it is to wipe drives before trashing them must be slipping up
[22:02:20] <alex_joni> lol
[22:02:26] <alex_joni> try a magner
[22:02:28] <alex_joni> magnet
[22:02:37] <alex_joni> it wipes everything ;-)
[22:02:42] <jmkasunich> that might wipe out the servo tracks and trash the drive
[22:04:30] <jmkasunich> the win95 install was for a compaq as far as I can tell, and this is a dell... it's flailing about trying to find drivers
[22:04:37] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich watches in amusement
[22:04:48] <alex_joni> it may actually run in the end
[22:04:53] <alex_joni> but not ok
[22:05:10] <jmkasunich> I'll give it a few minutes and see what happens
[22:08:52] <jmkasunich> enough of that crap... BDI disk goes in
[22:09:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has some problems compiling rcslib
[22:09:30] <jmkasunich> paul_c: what does "expert" mode give me?
[22:09:45] <jmkasunich> "if you have to ask, you're not an expert"
[22:09:59] <alex_joni> No rule to make target: '_posemathdb.o', needed by 'objs'
[22:12:07] <jmkasunich> "install exited abnormally -- received signal 11"
[22:12:11] <jmkasunich> that's not good
[22:12:41] <jmkasunich> previous message was "Running anaconda - please wait..."
[22:13:38] <paul_c> google for memtest86, make a boot floppy, and run it on the laptop
[22:14:02] <paul_c> You probably have a) a duff CD, or b) dodgy RAM.
[22:14:34] <jmkasunich> I have a feeling it's the CD
[22:16:32] <jmkasunich> are TNG iso's still available online?
[22:16:53] <paul_c> dunno
[22:17:19] <robin_sz> presumably you can just md5sum the iso?
[22:17:43] <jmkasunich> I have disks that I got from Ray... I don't have the iso anywhere
[22:17:49] <paul_c> want me to email you bdi-4.05 ?
[22:18:00] <jmkasunich> no
[22:18:19] <paul_c> okay.....
[22:18:30] <jmkasunich> eventually, yes, but not for this project
[22:18:35] <jmkasunich> I do want to try it on the farm
[22:21:22] <jmkasunich> I mounted the CD on this box... is it possible to MD5 the CD, or does it need to be in iso form?
[22:21:57] <paul_c> one normally runs md5sum on an iso image
[22:22:37] <jmkasunich> how do I make an iso from the cdrom?
[22:22:48] <paul_c> try "md5sum /dev/cdrom"
[22:23:30] <jmkasunich> it's doing something... I expect it will take a while
[22:23:46] <alex_joni> paul: can you take a look at /rcslib/src/posemath/Makefile ?
[22:23:54] <paul_c> else "dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/tmp/iso.img"
[22:24:20] <alex_joni> seems that there is no ifdef BUILD_REALTIMEONLY for the target
[22:24:40] <alex_joni> only for the HEADERS, CSRCS, COBJS
[22:25:10] <paul_c> also LIBS
[22:26:00] <alex_joni> yeah.. but there is no target
[22:26:18] <alex_joni> only if RTAI_PLAT is defined
[22:26:51] <paul_c> There are several targets for libpm.a
[22:27:10] <alex_joni> or if the PLAT contains rtlinux, rtai
[22:27:22] <alex_joni> if PLAT=realtime...
[22:29:15] <paul_c> Don't go worrying about it just yet.
[22:29:34] <alex_joni> well it breaks my build
[22:29:37] <alex_joni> :-(
[22:29:55] <jmkasunich> sherline no longer hosts the TNG isos :-(
[22:29:57] <alex_joni> I'll define RTAI_PLAT for now if appropiate
[22:30:06] <paul_c> Random hacking of rcslib make files could break for everyone else.
[22:30:24] <alex_joni> not touching the Makefile
[22:30:36] <alex_joni> defininf the RTAI_PLAT in the def file
[22:30:43] <alex_joni> probably it's used somewhere else too
[22:30:46] <alex_joni> jmk: <jmkasunich> I don't see the BDI-TNG iso's there, is that intentional?
[22:30:47] <alex_joni> <paul_c> probably
[22:30:47] <alex_joni> <paul_c> Live replaces TNG
[22:30:57] <alex_joni> that's from 2 months ago ;)
[22:31:28] <jmkasunich> I _like_ TNG ;-)
[22:31:42] <paul_c> alex_joni: Defining RTAI_PLAT will cause problems...
[22:32:03] <alex_joni> will it?
[22:32:13] <alex_joni> I wanted to define it conditionally
[22:32:18] <alex_joni> only if RTAI is found
[22:32:26] <alex_joni> this won't work for RTL thou
[22:32:45] <paul_c> who gives a... about rtl anymore ?
[22:32:54] <alex_joni> dunno
[22:33:16] <jmkasunich> looks like sherline are shipping their machines with BDI-2.18, that is RTL
[22:33:23] <paul_c> fsmlabs is anything up to a year behind RTAI
[22:34:12] <paul_c> jmkasunich: The next batch of machines from Sherline will probably be shipped with RTAI
[22:34:23] <jmkasunich> BDI-4?
[22:34:30] <paul_c> sshhhh
[22:34:50] <jmkasunich> emc-board
[22:40:03] <alex_joni> paul: the def files are make commands ... right?
[22:40:23] <alex_joni> how do I test if RTAI is set? (I have RTAI=3 set by ./configure)
[22:40:38] <paul_c> *.def are included in the make files
[22:40:44] <alex_joni> ifdef RTAI doesn't seem to work
[22:41:20] <alex_joni> I take that back
[22:41:28] <alex_joni> it actually worked
[22:49:31] <jmkasunich> does anybody have the MD5sums for bdi-tng disk 1 (iso)
[22:50:46] <paul_c> nope.
[22:51:44] <alex_joni> lemme check if I still have a TNG disk
[22:52:52] <alex_joni> only cd
[22:52:54] <alex_joni> :-(
[22:52:58] <alex_joni> only cd2
[22:54:01] <jmkasunich> hmm... looks like till has the isos!
[22:54:27] <jmkasunich> http://www.isw.uni-stuttgart.de/personen/t_franit/echtzeitlinux/download.html
[22:54:54] <robin_sz> who created the isos? they'll have the md5 for sure
[22:55:03] <jmkasunich> paul
[22:55:42] <jmkasunich> but I got the impression he was less than pleased with TNG, and when he moved on, he _really_ moved on (burned the masters or something) ;-)
[22:55:46] <paul_c> Is that with a "?" ?
[22:56:08] <jmkasunich> just answering robin: who created the isos
[22:57:11] <robin_sz> and the md5 is not published along with the iso, to verify its not had Bad Code inserted?
[22:57:29] <jmkasunich> not on till's site
[22:57:35] <robin_sz> well, I excpect emc is not exactly destined for a secure enviroment ...
[22:57:47] <robin_sz> but its still good practice to publish the MD5
[22:58:03] <jmkasunich> ISTR there was a list of MD5's somewhere
[22:58:08] <jmkasunich> googling for them now
[22:59:10] <robin_sz> ideally it would be part of the release process ...
[22:59:35] <robin_sz> allows people to check their d/l for errors as well as a security check
[23:00:24] <robin_sz> or you end up with the 'mach2' syndrome
[23:01:30] <robin_sz> of forgetting to update your release id, not having a sane system of release numbering (so you never know which is stable), and even if he does change the numbering, you cant be sure hes changed it inthe 'about' box ..
[23:01:48] <alex_joni> hmmmm.. strange thing
[23:01:49] <jmkasunich> maybe I should just send Ray another $10 or $20 for nice preprinted CDs
[23:02:01] <jmkasunich> that doesn't help me today tho
[23:02:10] <robin_sz> could do ... seems a shame with an interweb though
[23:02:12] <alex_joni> I have BUILD_REALTIMEONLY=1 inside my .def, but it doesn't seem to get recognized
[23:02:38] <alex_joni> if doing a 'make PLAT=realtime BUILD_REALTIMEONLY=1 all' it's different
[23:04:25] <paul_c> BUIL_REALTIME gets over-ridden in the make files
[23:05:31] <alex_joni> don't see that here
[23:05:41] <alex_joni> I only try to make inside the posemath dir
[23:08:09] <paul_c> <snigger> Someone is taking the piss on the CCED list....
[23:08:33] <paul_c> $1.75 for an encoder for a Yaskawa drive.
[23:11:35] <jmkasunich> maybe for the cable connector, if he's lucky
[23:12:41] <paul_c> Or a duff one if he is really, really lucky.
[23:13:07] <alex_joni> paul: those things defined in the def file should be available to make.. right?
[23:14:10] <paul_c> 'pends what "things" you are looking at.
[23:14:22] <alex_joni> e.g. I defined RTAI_PLAT=1
[23:14:49] <alex_joni> and there are some tests inside the Makefile (ifdef RTAI_PLAT ...)
[23:16:04] <paul_c> define NO_RTL with RTAI
[23:16:22] <alex_joni> NO_RTL=1 ?
[23:16:34] <alex_joni> or the -DNO_RTL ?
[23:17:30] <paul_c> the latter is required (as I recall)
[23:17:42] <alex_joni> yeah .. but that's for compiling
[23:18:05] <alex_joni> compiling works (after I manually convince make to modify the SRCS list he builds)
[23:18:48] <alex_joni> there are some files that shouldn't get listed for RT (like the _posemathdb.o)
[23:19:06] <paul_c> I've gotta disappear for a bit - Can you email the stuff over (or commit to SF) and I'll check it over
[23:19:15] <alex_joni> I'll mail you the stuff
[23:19:21] <alex_joni> not sure about commiting it
[23:19:35] <alex_joni> don't know where it should be (the autoconf stuff anyways)
[23:19:57] <paul_c> * paul_c has some thoughts on that...
[23:19:59] <alex_joni> I put it in a dir above emc/ and rcslib/
[23:20:08] <paul_c> nope
[23:20:13] <alex_joni> well?
[23:20:19] <paul_c> rcslib/etc
[23:20:27] <alex_joni> ok.. I'll move it there
[23:20:43] <paul_c> and a top level shell script runs the configure
[23:21:00] <alex_joni> and the compile script after that?
[23:22:13] <paul_c> hell, could even fix make in emc/src to do it.
[23:22:44] <alex_joni> to make rcslib if not there?
[23:23:24] <paul_c> in time, perhaps.
[23:23:36] <alex_joni> I think it would be ok
[23:24:30] <paul_c> * paul_c is gone.
[23:24:55] <alex_joni> bye
[23:25:24] <jmkasunich> 1:38:30 left in the iso download...
[23:25:30] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich has to go away for a bit
[23:35:07] <alex_joni> this is really cluttered
[23:35:58] <jmkasunich> you noticed ;-)
[23:36:54] <alex_joni> yeah
[23:37:15] <alex_joni> now I get errors compiling rcsvers.c
[23:37:23] <alex_joni> I think it's not opening rcsvers.hh
[23:37:51] <jmkasunich> hmmm... compile farm has been up for 57 days... that's a record for me
[23:37:57] <alex_joni> nice
[23:38:16] <alex_joni> doesn't reach cradek's uptime...
[23:38:19] <alex_joni> but still
[23:38:20] <jmkasunich> even this box has been up for 29 days... I've gotten lazy, I used to shut down every night
[23:40:36] <jmkasunich> oops... I _almost_ shut down slot 1... that's the router, and I'm in the middle of downloading an iso thru it
[23:43:30] <alex_joni> geeeee.. I found the problem
[23:43:34] <alex_joni> I have now rcslib.a
[23:43:40] <alex_joni> librcs.a
[23:43:40] <jmkasunich> cool
[23:43:41] <alex_joni> :D
[23:44:23] <alex_joni> did a make clean
[23:44:26] <alex_joni> and rebuilding
[23:44:34] <alex_joni> I did build some stuff manually ;)
[23:55:13] <alex_joni> hmm... <jmkasunich> I don't see the BDI-TNG iso's there, is that intentional?
[23:55:13] <alex_joni> <paul_c> probably
[23:55:13] <alex_joni> <paul_c> Live replaces TNG
[23:55:21] <alex_joni> sorry wrong paste
[23:55:31] <alex_joni> hmmm... awk -F'[\ \"\t]'
[23:55:48] <alex_joni> the space doesn't need to be commented out.. right?
[23:55:52] <alex_joni> awk -F'[ \"\t]'
[23:56:34] <alex_joni> it generates an warning (escape sequence '\ ' treated as plain ' ')
[23:59:13] <alex_joni> jmk: still around?