#emc | Logs for 2004-12-08

[02:05:45] <jepler> yay, emc's parser is starting to work with axis. http://axis.unpy.net/index.cgi/01102468345
[02:10:33] <paul_c> Ready to bump the version number up and release a new one for BDI-4 ?
[02:45:46] <jepler> paul_c: unfortunately not. Coordinate offsets aren't working yet, for instance.
[02:46:50] <jepler> paul_c: I'm about to be on vacation for a week, and then there's the holidays, so realistically a '1.0' release won't be out until mid-january at the earliest, with another beta sometime between christmas and new years' day.
[13:37:39] <rayh> paul_c: You about?
[13:39:18] <paul_c> Hi Ray
[13:40:03] <rayh> Is it possible for you to ship a real disk to sherline and get it there tomorrow?
[13:40:48] <paul_c> It would be quicker for them to download it from here
[13:41:10] <rayh> Right. Joe was just asking?
[13:41:42] <rayh> We wouldn't want to hammer your connection with two downloads at the same time.
[13:42:20] <paul_c> lemme see if I can get some b/w elsewhere...
[13:42:33] <rayh> k
[13:50:25] <paul_c> this might take a few mins...
[13:50:52] <rayh> No problem. This is the top of the list.
[13:51:14] <rayh> Matt won't get into Sherline for a couple hours yet.
[13:55:49] <les> hello ray
[13:56:03] <rayh> Morning Les.
[13:56:29] <les> You work with peter K in australia right?
[13:56:54] <rayh> Just a bit. We set him up as a BDI copier.
[13:57:09] <rayh> I don't remember much about his setup.
[13:57:19] <les> he was just asking how you were
[13:58:01] <les> He was just GIVEN a big Gantry router with fried controls
[13:58:02] <rayh> Tell him I'm well, the wife is much better and the toboggan run is getting iced down right now.
[13:58:14] <les> haha
[13:58:37] <les> might reach 70 here this afternoon...unusually warm
[13:58:59] <les> usually in the 20's early in the morning
[13:59:09] <rayh> I set of a pair of photoeyes a few years ago. One of my kids could make a bit more that 60 MPH.
[13:59:39] <rayh> 20 makes for some nice crisp air. Does that temp dry things there?
[13:59:56] <les> We have the southernmost ski slope here (east of the miss)
[14:00:23] <rayh> Nice. Do they have to make snow?
[14:00:28] <les> sometimes gets below zero...but usually not
[14:00:50] <les> yes must make snow as we get only 10 in or so
[14:01:00] <rayh> We get about 40 days a year below
[14:01:33] <les> I spent many cold winters in chicago
[14:02:01] <les> lots of time up your way at miller west of green bay
[14:02:05] <rayh> That's a mizerable cold place. Lots of humidity and wind.
[14:02:29] <rayh> Now you're getting close.
[14:03:19] <rayh> You working with Peter on a project?
[14:04:04] <les> Naw he was just asking about things for his new toy (the gantry router)
[14:06:36] <les> he needs some servo amps
[14:07:09] <les> those Galil ones on ebay are the best deal around...rebadged Copleys
[14:07:30] <les> $50-75....NOS
[14:07:42] <les> 20 amps 80v peak
[14:08:19] <les> I had better pick up a bunch before they are gone
[14:08:42] <les> need spares...and need some for the Bridgeport I am hubting for
[14:08:51] <les> hunting
[14:09:17] <les> plenty around...just not close
[14:09:25] <les> have to hit some auctions
[14:09:53] <paul_c> Darn... Can only get 10-50Megs on a fast connection.
[14:11:40] <rayh> paul_c: That would get it here in six hours. I could make a copy and get it to Smithy next day.
[14:12:54] <rayh> or is my math pre-coffee?
[14:13:05] <paul_c> But we need 650Meg before anyone could download it..
[14:13:34] <rayh> From you to them?
[14:13:38] <les> well need to work on turkey call g-code...trying to use all 9 fixture offsets...then variables for the next row and so on
[14:13:53] <les> long program...lots of text editor stuff
[14:14:04] <rayh> Thanks for the note on Peter. Have a good day.
[14:14:10] <les> later
[14:23:45] <paul_c> rayh: Can upload the file to Sherline this evening on a 2Meg line
[14:25:39] <rayh> Okay. That would get it to them. Can we also get it to me on the 12 hour download?
[14:26:16] <rayh> Or should I get my guy to take it from Sherline?
[14:26:21] <paul_c> It could be midnight (GMT) by the time they get it...
[14:28:54] <rayh> Okay. That means morning for them. That should be fine at their end.
[14:30:12] <rayh> If I started a normal download here. I'd have it by morning. If I could get a t1 to sherline, we'd both have it.
[14:30:40] <rayh> Let me try that idea on my guy if I can raise him.
[14:30:41] <paul_c> Would need an ftp account & passwd to upload it
[14:30:58] <rayh> Th Sherline.
[14:31:06] <paul_c> yup
[14:31:16] <rayh> Or to my guy.
[14:31:39] <rayh> * rayh is on the phone.
[14:31:41] <paul_c> well.. If I could upload to both
[14:32:24] <paul_c> (probably pushing it though...)
[14:37:07] <rayh> I can't raise him yet.
[14:37:47] <paul_c> * paul_c is on the phone now....
[14:42:19] <paul_c> NTL suck..... �1000 installation fee and �8000 p.a. for a 2Meg line.
[14:48:10] <jepler> paul_c: I think you left just before I said this about AXIS release plans: paul_c: I'm about to be on vacation for a week, and then there's the holidays, so realistically a '1.0' release won't be out until mid-january at the earliest, with another beta sometime between christmas and new years' day.
[14:48:19] <jepler> (yesterday)
[14:49:48] <rayh> jepler: I'm hoping I can get a look at it before the weekend.
[14:50:02] <rayh> as soon as I can get the disk from paul.
[14:51:49] <paul_c> jepler: Could take a cvs snapshot and add it to the CD after bumping the minor release number
[14:53:49] <paul_c> say, Ver-1.0b2 ?
[14:54:17] <jepler> paul_c: what date are we talking about? I only have one more night to work on this before I leave town...
[14:55:00] <paul_c> If I build another CD for upload tonight, about three hours.
[14:56:56] <rayh> We wouldn't need axis for Sherline on this round.
[14:56:59] <jepler> I don't think I'll make it
[14:57:30] <paul_c> If the bug fix is in anon cvs, I could do it from here.
[15:01:01] <jepler> which bug fix? Using the real emc interpreter for g-code is a bunch of code changes
[15:01:42] <paul_c> the bug fix for r values
[15:02:21] <jepler> the R-specified arc bug isn't going to be fixed except by switching interpreters
[15:02:31] <jepler> it's a bug in my homebrew parser, which I'm not going to fix, I'm ripping it out instead
[15:05:27] <paul_c> It's not a major prob - An update would only be 280K...
[15:20:34] <rayh> paul_c: Got the guy. Would you want a fast link to him? He can transfer to SD.
[15:23:32] <rayh> If he grabbed a normal download of 4.1 today he could transfer in the AM to SD.
[15:24:03] <rayh> We might have to work with Matt there to get a burned cd.
[15:30:43] <paul_c> Think I'm going to run out of time to get a CD to the guys this side with the fast link...
[15:31:31] <paul_c> Probably best if your lad downloaded from me and then passed it on to SD
[15:31:51] <rayh> k
[15:32:11] <rayh> and 4.01.iso is it?
[15:33:18] <rayh> He can start anytime and run overnight there.
[15:34:06] <paul_c> bdi-4.01.iso - It is the only iso listed.
[15:34:32] <rayh> No changes you want to make before the dl.
[15:35:51] <paul_c> was going to do another build with a modified anaconda...
[15:36:10] <paul_c> But the packages and install would remain the same.
[15:36:50] <rayh> I can ask him to wait until later today if you want to make a new iso.
[15:37:32] <paul_c> would need a couple of hours..
[15:37:44] <rayh> No problem here.
[15:45:41] <CIA-3> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/comps.xml: File changed. New revision:1.17
[15:46:47] <paul_c> build, burn, & test cycle coming up.
[15:47:01] <jepler> any chance future BDIs could be offered on bittorrent? It might let more people get it more quickly.
[15:47:31] <cradek> it would let all of us with great bandwidth help (leave our clients up)
[15:47:49] <cradek> I have 2Mbit at home
[15:49:20] <paul_c> would have to look at bittorrent....
[15:49:24] <jepler> cradek: substantially less than 2Mbit outgoing, isn't it?
[15:49:36] <jepler> I can offer 20K byte/second outgoing via bittorrent
[15:49:37] <paul_c> How does it cope with obsoleted releases ?
[15:50:32] <jepler> paul_c: You run a bittorrent server or client for a particular file. So when a new version comes out, everyone would have to re-start their programs
[15:50:59] <jepler> IMO it would make sense for new releases before they're hosted at sherline, but once they're on a fast connection it's not needed so much
[15:51:06] <paul_c> and the old versions still remain in circulation ?
[15:51:23] <jepler> but if chris, ray, sherline, and I could all get the new iso at the same time without you using additional bw, that would be great
[15:51:36] <jepler> the old versions would be hosted at sherline by then, for regular ftp/http, not bittorrent
[16:11:05] <dave-e> mornin ray, paul
[16:11:34] <paul_c> dave-e: You been up all night ?
[16:11:41] <dave-e> not me
[16:11:56] <dave-e> just leaving the connection up
[16:12:41] <dave-e> I have jury duty today..so won't get much done
[16:12:59] <dave-e> I might be lucky and not get picked
[16:14:00] <paul_c> Or you might get some meaty case
[16:14:11] <dave-e> been there, done that
[16:14:23] <dave-e> even then juries are not predictable
[16:14:57] <rayh> Hi dave.
[16:15:03] <dave-e> hi ray
[16:15:44] <rayh> I'm told that if you say "I'm planning on hanging the bastard" they won't choose you.
[16:16:25] <dave-e> with criminal cases: there are only three kinds....dumb defendent, innocent, weak prosecution case
[16:16:38] <dave-e> all the others get plea bargined.
[16:16:50] <dave-e> "a little hanging is a good thing"
[16:17:18] <dave-e> or the option in this state is lethal injection
[16:18:24] <dave-e> so mike is not a sherline...where did he go
[16:18:49] <dave-e> at sherline
[16:19:41] <cradek> he was still doing something related to cnc
[16:19:43] <cradek> some other company
[16:20:04] <cradek> I don't remember the details and have only seen him once since he left there
[16:20:29] <dave-e> chris...you in socal?
[16:20:33] <cradek> NE
[16:20:41] <dave-e> ok
[16:31:59] <dave-e> well I'm off to do my duty.
[16:32:05] <les> I have a talker hooked up to this haha
[17:02:15] <jepler> socal would be a bit tempting at the moment, it's cold here
[17:48:23] <jepler> several people have said it would be nice to have a tracker for AXIS. I wonder if I should put one up on unpythonic.net, or whether it would be appropriate to use the emc project's tracker on sourceforge
[17:50:55] <paul_c> Would you eventually move axis to SF ?
[17:53:13] <rayh> paul_c: Do you know if tk 8.3 has a clipboard command?
[17:54:33] <paul_c> yes
[17:54:51] <rayh> Thanks
[17:55:54] <paul_c> couldn't tell you how to use it though...
[17:57:06] <jepler> paul_c: if that's what people want.
[17:57:17] <jepler> paul_c: (that's the same thing I've always said)
[17:58:05] <rayh> I'd like to see it there.
[17:58:32] <paul_c> It would off-load the responsibilty of maintaining a bdi-4 version...
[18:01:26] <rayh> What would you think of an emc/python directory with axis under that.
[18:03:56] <paul_c> If it works with all EMC variants, perhaps we should have a new module for projects such as axis
[18:16:12] <paul_c> rayh: Start downloading
[18:24:18] <rayh> He's on lunch back in a bit.
[18:24:53] <rayh> That would be fine. We might eventually move all the gui stuff there, 'eh?
[18:29:52] <rayh> I just posted some period,guess tickle code to emc-users.
[18:30:24] <rayh> If you could try it on a pc running emc and compare the guess to your setting...
[18:30:30] <rayh> I'd appreciate it.
[18:40:21] <rayh> Darn. Got lost.
[19:04:39] <an0n> * an0n yawns
[19:06:28] <paul_c> * paul_c finds a bug in Ray's tickle code
[19:13:00] <paul_c> The AMD 1800XP says 14uSec, the Duron 633, 37.7uSec
[19:14:03] <rayh> Thanks for the confirmation, Paul.
[19:14:10] <paul_c> The latter will run at 16uSec
[19:14:35] <rayh> Really. Let me suggest a revision to the number line.
[19:16:17] <rayh> try [expr 0.03 / [rc[t $speed -250] ]
[19:16:44] <rayh> oosp try [expr 0.03 / [expr $speed -250] ]
[19:19:24] <paul_c> 10uSec for the XP, and ~30uSec for the Duron
[19:19:38] <paul_c> 10uSec is too fast...
[19:22:30] <jepler> maybe you want to use a formula like 10e-6 + 0.025 / (speed - 250), to give an absolute minimum somewhere around 10uS
[19:23:02] <jepler> tweak the constants to taste
[19:23:25] <jepler> also I note the formula won't give credible results for a machine where speed < 250, but I think people are running emc on slower
[19:34:18] <rayh> Bobomips runs about twice frequency.
[19:34:37] <rayh> I can barely run on a 200 here.
[19:35:09] <rayh> My input scale is about 2k and max vel is 25.
[19:38:48] <jepler> I could have sworn somebody (Imperator_?) mentioned trying AXIS on a Pentium 133, but maybe that's an uncommonly low-end configuration
[19:40:13] <cradek> 166
[19:40:24] <cradek> it was Imperator I think
[19:40:45] <cradek> he was running redhat 7.2
[19:40:55] <rayh> EMC will run there, it is just that it won't produce many steps per second before following error.
[19:42:11] <rayh> I suppose that it would be good to separate period bfrom other vars but I'm not certain it can be done.
[19:52:27] <jepler> It seems like someone said that emc1 is written for servo machines, and steppers are an afterthought. Is that any different in EMC2?
[19:54:41] <paul_c> EMC2 has started with steppers and servos might get added at some point.
[20:00:08] <rayh> Info world says that in a july survey of business 85% said they were using, testing, or considering OS for their business.
[21:34:20] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[21:34:25] <jepler> argh, my dsl
[21:52:21] <les> well, my opinion:
[21:52:48] <les> for commercial stuff stepper has LONG been obsolete.
[21:53:15] <cradek> did anyone tell sherline?
[21:53:39] <les> Issue is whether emc2 will be a hobby only or a hobby+commercial system
[21:54:05] <les> sherline is a commercial firm that makes hobby machines...which is fine
[21:55:15] <paul_c> I am not interested in hobby grade systems.
[21:55:51] <paul_c> I want an industrial strength controller.
[21:56:07] <les> well why not have modern performance....go for it! Why be retro?
[21:56:47] <les> I know of course cost and complexity is an issue for the hobby market
[21:56:51] <les> but
[21:57:13] <les> I think servos can be economical...and very easy to set up
[21:58:52] <cradek> I'd sure like to have servos on my hobby grade machine - how much for servos and whatever drivers they need?
[21:59:10] <les> how big a machine?
[21:59:25] <cradek> little tabletop maxnc
[21:59:36] <les> ok lets see here...
[21:59:44] <cradek> X travel is about 10"
[22:01:16] <cradek> 8" X Travel · 5" Y Travel · 6" Z Travel · 4" wide dovetails · 11.9" long x 4" wide table
[22:01:58] <les> here's my take... for a machine like that you don't need an expensive low inertia servo motor
[22:02:32] <les> so a small pmdc motor would be fine
[22:02:48] <les> $25 or something surplus?
[22:02:52] <les> a guess
[22:03:03] <cradek> encoders, amps, PC interface?
[22:03:22] <les> encoders are about $50 new....
[22:03:24] <cradek> (I really don't know anything about it)
[22:03:54] <les> amps can be small...$25 or so if you build them
[22:04:28] <les> but then 1600w galils are less than $75 each NOS on ebay
[22:04:58] <les> I have some catalogs here...let me check some things
[22:05:34] <an0n> * an0n likes galil hardware
[22:06:13] <an0n> although it's expensive
[22:08:42] <les> I am seeing 100+ in oz motors with encoders for around $100
[22:09:17] <an0n> yep..
[22:09:23] <les> but separate $25 motor and $50 us digital encoder is a bit cheaper
[22:09:23] <Imperator_> cradek: i have s P166
[22:09:28] <an0n> but they are expensive..
[22:09:44] <les> even less if one gets lucky with the encoders bought as surplus
[22:10:03] <cradek> my current steppers are 145 in oz
[22:10:33] <les> The only big ticket item (for emc) seems to be the interface card
[22:10:43] <les> best is the Vital card
[22:11:02] <an0n> the servos I have are like 629$
[22:11:17] <an0n> and that's small ones..
[22:11:23] <an0n> but, bought new from galil..
[22:11:39] <les> least expensive is a surplus galil card...but of course no good for emc
[22:12:19] <les> so if you get lucky on ebay....
[22:12:38] <an0n> well, if I could get shipping here I'd have bought a cnc mill off ebay
[22:12:47] <an0n> but..and servos/encoders
[22:12:48] <an0n> and stuff..
[22:12:53] <an0n> but it's kind of hard to ship to sweden
[22:13:14] <an0n> I am waiting for my last driver to arrive from geckodrive
[22:13:30] <les> enough to run a mill drill or something will be about $US900 for motors, encoders, amps, and io card
[22:13:39] <an0n> my servo driver was broken
[22:13:40] <an0n> :/
[22:13:53] <an0n> the input part of it..
[22:14:04] <les> obviously the io card is the big part of it
[22:14:29] <cradek> yeah
[22:14:36] <cradek> that's too bad, the rest sounds affordable enough to play with
[22:14:49] <les> now...how much would a complete stepper system be for a mill drill?
[22:15:00] <an0n> not too much
[22:15:03] <cradek> well this entire machine starts at $1300
[22:15:13] <cradek> mine's somewhat upgraded, but still
[22:15:31] <cradek> entire machine, meaning steppers and drivers and power supply, ready to plug into the parallel port
[22:15:42] <an0n> that's more expensive..
[22:16:02] <les> how much might just a manual machine with similar capabilities be?
[22:16:25] <an0n> about 1844..
[22:16:30] <Imperator_> I have some galil 12-80 amps they are cheap at ebay, and you need servos with a tacho. The good thing is that nobody wants to have servos with tachos at ebay, so they are very cheap
[22:16:33] <an0n> $ over here..
[22:16:54] <an0n> but that's a cheap drill/mill
[22:17:55] <les> imperator: galil 1280 are rebadged Copley 412s I think...they can be set up in torque mode without tachs and will run great
[22:18:44] <Imperator_> jep i have them in velosity mode
[22:19:18] <les> In the old days velocity mode was used in the amps to offload having the slow computers calculate the D term
[22:19:34] <Imperator_> and i have two servos with tacho and encoder, so i can easyly test the emc without a machine
[22:20:11] <Imperator_> velocity mode is normal at machine tools i think
[22:20:41] <les> current mode is now...because the computers are so much faster
[22:21:02] <les> D in PID closes the velocity loop
[22:21:54] <Imperator_> you neen the tacho is never used
[22:21:58] <les> A long time ago D was done in the amp (velocity mode) because it caused a delay in the digital part
[22:22:13] <an0n> that's why tacho's are analog..
[22:22:14] <an0n> right?
[22:22:22] <les> at least 0.5 servo update interval
[22:22:29] <an0n> otherwise you'd just have a pulse output like today..
[22:22:36] <les> that is not a problem any more
[22:22:40] <an0n> s/pulse output/encoder
[22:23:14] <Imperator_> maybe
[22:23:29] <les> so PIDFF current mode can equal or even outperform velocity mode thanks to fast processing
[22:24:22] <les> no need for a tach
[22:24:32] <an0n> yep
[22:24:46] <an0n> what are used today are probably 10 times more accurate..
[22:24:48] <les> the encoder derivative is an awfully good tach already
[22:24:49] <an0n> if not more..
[22:26:26] <les> So use emc with a current mode amp, encoder, no tach, and PIDFF
[22:27:03] <les> it will have higher bandwidth...no heavy lags from PI velocity loops in the amp
[22:27:24] <an0n> to do that you need a counter card dont you?
[22:27:36] <les> yes...
[22:27:47] <an0n> * an0n is just running a dumb system with geckos
[22:28:09] <les> that's fine...
[22:28:58] <an0n> well, it works great..
[22:29:05] <an0n> but it dosent feel as solid :]
[22:29:34] <les> the only thing is following error estop
[22:29:48] <an0n> btw, is the lathe support in emc ready yet?
[22:30:18] <an0n> threading.. and things
[22:30:19] <les> if one amp faults on the 256 count ferror limit the others will keep going...=bad crash
[22:30:24] <an0n> yeah,,
[22:30:36] <an0n> but you have a error output on the geckos..
[22:30:37] <les> but that could be easily fixed with a little external logic
[22:30:40] <an0n> I think :)
[22:30:58] <les> haha
[22:31:19] <les> that's a product idea for you....
[22:31:21] <an0n> my setup's temporary.. until I can mill myself a faceplate for a driver box..
[22:31:37] <an0n> and new motor mounts..
[22:31:43] <an0n> it's hell to be without Z axis..
[22:31:52] <an0n> everything's so hard to do :)
[22:32:11] <les> take lots of time
[22:32:21] <an0n> hand Z
[22:32:28] <an0n> bleh
[22:32:47] <an0n> doing that kind of defeats the purpose of having a cnc machine
[22:33:27] <les> well I need to go and have a barbeque with the huge amounts of cherry wood scraps the cnc machine is generating from production
[22:33:34] <les> smells good
[22:33:42] <an0n> hehe
[22:33:42] <an0n> nice
[22:33:50] <les> but cherry has some cyanide derivatives in it
[22:34:06] <an0n> :D
[22:34:15] <les> um...I'll tell you later how it works out...
[22:34:57] <an0n> just dont breate in too much
[22:34:58] <an0n> laters
[22:35:09] <les> laters!
[23:20:24] <robin_sz> MEEEOOOOP!
[23:20:33] <robin_sz> * robin_sz bounces enthusiastically
[23:21:08] <paul_c> * paul_c throws a bucket of iced water over robin_sz
[23:21:54] <robin_sz> it will do no good
[23:22:01] <robin_sz> for today, I am bouncy
[23:23:11] <robin_sz> * robin_sz met with his distributors today
[23:27:45] <robin_sz> and it was a GOOD meeting
[23:29:40] <les> so what happened?
[23:29:56] <robin_sz> they liked the machine, it was just fine, very impressed ...
[23:30:11] <robin_sz> so it leaves here next friday :)
[23:30:34] <robin_sz> and they will order in batches of 5
[23:30:42] <les> which machine? plasma?
[23:30:46] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[23:30:50] <les> damn
[23:30:58] <robin_sz> damn? why so?
[23:31:14] <les> um...have a US distributor?
[23:31:23] <robin_sz> not yet, this is a UK deal
[23:31:30] <les> hmmm
[23:32:14] <les> Your machines are very low cost...I guess they were convinced they also had high performance
[23:32:53] <robin_sz> oh yes. they were very pleased with the overal strenght, and the low backlash, minimal flex etc etc
[23:33:39] <les> well...on behalf of hobart and miller...why don't you send me some particulars?
[23:33:49] <robin_sz> love to!
[23:34:17] <les> ...always looking for good products to sell...
[23:34:23] <robin_sz> I'm going to hang some white sheets around it this weekend and do some photos
[23:34:30] <les> cool
[23:34:34] <les> send em
[23:34:38] <robin_sz> * robin_sz will do
[23:35:04] <CIA-3> 03Zathras 07BDI build system * 10Babylon Cluster/picax.xml: File changed. New revision:1.13
[23:35:18] <les> I was doing the white sheet thing too for some portfolio stuff
[23:38:51] <robin_sz> * robin_sz msgs les