#emc | Logs for 2004-11-08

[00:00:05] <pfred1> and I'm too old!
[00:00:18] <les> my son is 18...
[00:00:28] <pfred1> yeah he'd better get into college
[00:00:50] <les> and I don't want hum off fighting oil crusades
[00:01:00] <pfred1> school grades going to go way up across the board
[00:01:11] <les> yeah
[00:01:42] <pfred1> and i guess indirectly Bush can take credit for that
[00:02:31] <les> I guess...not a big Bush fan ;)
[00:03:01] <pfred1> yeah if my family was as well connected as his is I could have been somebody too
[00:03:10] <les> haha
[00:03:13] <pfred1> and not been such a frigging loser as he's been!
[00:03:31] <pfred1> he's screwed up everything he's ever done
[00:03:52] <pfred1> America is just another hting in his long list of lifelong failures
[00:04:14] <les> no argument here but alex got quiet....
[00:04:24] <pfred1> he's russian I think
[00:04:29] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is fiddling with Cygwin/X
[00:04:34] <alex_joni> not really russian ;)
[00:04:42] <pfred1> romanian?
[00:04:52] <alex_joni> yup
[00:04:54] <pfred1> ru is russia is ro romania?
[00:04:59] <alex_joni> exactly
[00:05:15] <pfred1> well you're all commie pinkos to me :)
[00:05:20] <les> haha
[00:05:28] <pfred1> les knows where that's from
[00:05:42] <pfred1> just how we were all brought up then
[00:06:06] <alex_joni> well.. I didn't really catch the old regime...
[00:06:13] <pfred1> amazing thing is russia more capitalist than america is today
[00:06:30] <pfred1> they have commercial space flights we can't even put a human into space anymore!
[00:06:40] <pfred1> loser america!
[00:07:01] <pfred1> makes me sick how this coutry has gone down the tubes so badly
[00:07:12] <alex_joni> well... I'm gone ... gotta eat something
[00:07:48] <les> I am just doing a little work while I wait for it to warm up a little
[00:08:01] <pfred1> it's going to be nice here today
[00:08:05] <pfred1> like 63 or something
[00:08:10] <pfred1> I'm there!
[00:08:13] <les> had a hard freeze yesterday
[00:08:20] <pfred1> yeah?
[00:08:23] <pfred1> in georgia?
[00:08:24] <les> 51 now
[00:08:38] <les> the mountains are much colder
[00:08:43] <pfred1> 45 feels like 41
[00:08:55] <pfred1> I live in a place called summit you think that's on the plains?
[00:09:14] <pfred1> hilly here!
[00:09:23] <les> It's the altitude a little but mostly the cold air damming
[00:09:40] <pfred1> we're not at any staggering altitude though like 900 feet maybe?
[00:09:56] <les> temp reaches 60....golf course for me
[00:10:15] <pfred1> Elevation: 388 feet
[00:10:15] <les> altitude from about 2000 to 7000 here
[00:10:23] <alex_joni> bye guys...
[00:10:27] <pfred1> tho i don't know how they can just give one elevation maybe that's max?
[00:10:28] <les> bye
[00:10:39] <FloH> bye
[00:10:48] <les> usually at the airport
[00:10:59] <pfred1> we don't have an airport
[00:11:06] <pfred1> my god what would that cost?
[00:11:16] <pfred1> property here is like over a million an acre
[00:11:33] <pfred1> airport that's funny!
[00:11:34] <les> I am a pilot...and airport elevation is really important for calculating loads, take off runs, etc
[00:12:03] <pfred1> yeah when i hit like 3 lotteries back to back i gonna buy this town turn it into an airport!
[00:12:21] <pfred1> that'd rule!
[00:12:26] <les> I have to drive about 20 miles to rent a plane
[00:12:31] <pfred1> yes i hate this place
[00:12:42] <pfred1> man know what my neighbor across the street used to do?
[00:12:49] <les> ?
[00:12:49] <pfred1> he used to make planes in his garage
[00:12:55] <pfred1> he made like 5
[00:13:04] <les> I guess I could
[00:13:08] <pfred1> you should make yourself your own plane
[00:13:11] <pfred1> yeah it's not hard
[00:13:13] <les> I am an aerospace engineer
[00:13:23] <pfred1> hardest thing for him always was welding up the motor mount
[00:13:25] <les> have a pretty good shop
[00:13:38] <pfred1> home depot sells fiberglass resin today
[00:13:43] <pfred1> you're good to go!
[00:13:59] <les> I just have seen too many get killed in homebuilts
[00:14:02] <pfred1> he'd like fly refugees out of cuba
[00:14:08] <pfred1> he was nuts!
[00:14:10] <les> It ain't pretty I'll tell you
[00:14:13] <pfred1> waldo!
[00:14:28] <pfred1> he was fidel's doctor
[00:14:35] <les> hmm
[00:15:06] <pfred1> I used to help him do some stuffs
[00:15:23] <les> I just fly certified aircraft...a bit safer
[00:15:31] <pfred1> he got the hell out while the getting was good
[00:15:40] <les> but I have had engine failure once
[00:15:43] <pfred1> cmon I'm sure you can make a fine plane
[00:15:55] <pfred1> well make it so it has some glide
[00:16:18] <les> I find the plastic ones a little un nerving
[00:16:24] <pfred1> he used souped up VW engines for his powerplants
[00:16:50] <pfred1> he'd order a bunch of parts from JC Whitney
[00:17:04] <les> I got checked out in a Katana...it has this little pop up turkey baster thing in the cabin
[00:17:14] <pfred1> he'd fly from here to cuba and back under the radar
[00:17:28] <pfred1> ah a primer ball?
[00:17:31] <les> if it pops up the vinyl ester resin is too soft to safely fly
[00:17:40] <pfred1> oh
[00:17:54] <les> I'll take 2024 aluminum and rivets
[00:18:06] <pfred1> fiberglass is amazing
[00:18:31] <pfred1> although I'm not totally comfortable flying i must admit lack of experience i guess
[00:18:41] <les> well the planes are slick and fast..that's for sure
[00:18:58] <les> but it does not age gracefully
[00:19:05] <pfred1> once one of my friend's kid brother's wanted me to weld soemthing for them
[00:19:13] <les> and planes cost so much
[00:19:14] <pfred1> I took one look at the job said I'm not welding that!
[00:19:22] <pfred1> and I helped them fiberglass it
[00:19:25] <les> airplane?
[00:19:31] <pfred1> it was the rear strut towers in a BMW
[00:19:35] <pfred1> it held up!
[00:19:40] <les> oh
[00:19:47] <les> I have a 325i
[00:19:50] <pfred1> just osmething subjected to stresses
[00:20:02] <pfred1> watch it beemers have some rot issues
[00:20:10] <pfred1> I had to put a few back together
[00:20:24] <pfred1> their rears have a tendency to rot off
[00:20:29] <les> mine is getting old...I bought it after a lease
[00:20:46] <pfred1> I think dave's was a 325
[00:20:49] <les> has been reliable though
[00:21:04] <pfred1> his i had to cut the bottom of the rear quarter off and weld the rear back into it
[00:21:13] <pfred1> did a nice job
[00:21:18] <pfred1> you couldn't even tell :)
[00:21:32] <pfred1> we cut it under that molding down there
[00:21:32] <les> cool
[00:21:40] <pfred1> put the molding back afterwards
[00:21:49] <pfred1> then he sold it
[00:22:08] <pfred1> dave he does boats
[00:22:14] <pfred1> you should se the boat he made!
[00:22:18] <les> I am going to pop on a new fuel pump and fan belt
[00:22:23] <pfred1> yacht actually
[00:22:38] <les> they are not bad...just preventative maint.
[00:22:55] <les> A boat is on my list
[00:23:01] <pfred1> I don't really care much for american cars myself only owned one once
[00:23:18] <pfred1> bernie wanted $50 for it I gave him $100
[00:23:31] <pfred1> one of those kinds of cars
[00:23:33] <les> well as you know I make car stuff...and BMW is one tough customer
[00:23:55] <les> I have an American truck
[00:23:57] <pfred1> they're not al lthat and a bag of chips to me
[00:24:35] <pfred1> see if I can find pic of my car
[00:24:42] <les> ok
[00:24:53] <pfred1> I have a 1966 P1800S
[00:25:03] <les> wow
[00:25:26] <les> I have a 66 bronco sport to restore
[00:25:36] <pfred1> they were rust buckets
[00:25:37] <les> was my grandpas
[00:25:42] <les> its in the barn
[00:25:51] <pfred1> yeah you're down south so no salt
[00:25:55] <pfred1> it's a different world there
[00:26:09] <pfred1> you don't know the meaning of the word rust
[00:26:14] <les> right...and when it snows no one goes anywhere
[00:26:31] <les> I know rust...20 years in Chicago
[00:26:36] <pfred1> my first P1800 had a special handling package in it
[00:26:51] <pfred1> it was so rusted that the whole car flexed was like independant suspension!
[00:26:59] <les> haha
[00:27:03] <pfred1> I'm serious
[00:27:15] <pfred1> I almost ran myself over driving that thing
[00:27:34] <pfred1> you could actually feel it driving it
[00:27:36] <les> I like a stiff ride so I have Bilstein heavy duty in the bmw
[00:27:46] <les> need something for the F150
[00:27:49] <pfred1> yeah i got all steins on my P1800
[00:27:51] <les> it's mush
[00:27:53] <pfred1> delrin bushings
[00:28:05] <pfred1> momo wheel :)
[00:28:10] <les> cool
[00:28:17] <les> I mean Kewel
[00:28:19] <pfred1> real mags
[00:28:23] <pfred1> the illegal kind
[00:28:28] <les> ha
[00:28:39] <pfred1> well they haven't blown up on me yet
[00:30:14] <pfred1> ha ha found a pic of it
[00:30:24] <les> I sure look forward to some time off so I can work on fun stuff
[00:30:40] <les> addy?
[00:30:56] <pfred1> I did this car before the advent of digital cameras so this like pics i took of it then scanned years later
[00:30:59] <pfred1>
[00:31:01] <pfred1> that's one
[00:31:22] <pfred1>
[00:31:40] <pfred1> oh you're a beemer fan i painted it 89 BMW salmon silver
[00:32:21] <pfred1>
[00:32:51] <pfred1> I guess i have to take some new pics of it
[00:32:58] <les> neat car
[00:33:11] <pfred1> thanks yeah it's different i was always a Volvo fan
[00:33:16] <pfred1> always had like 142s
[00:33:25] <les> I did BMW's powder clearcoat line process control system
[00:33:33] <pfred1> and it's true you can prety much head on into a brick wall into them
[00:33:51] <les> acoustics work mostly
[00:34:02] <pfred1> hmmm I don't know about that paint system i haven't done a real painting in a while
[00:34:13] <pfred1> anymore I'm happy if they're one color
[00:34:40] <les> Well we (ITW) invented powder coating....and the spray gun
[00:35:09] <les> own Binks, Devillbiss, Ransberg, Gema
[00:35:23] <pfred1> how's this for frame rot?
[00:35:30] <les> so I have about every spray gun they make
[00:35:34] <pfred1> oh i have binks and Devillbiss guns
[00:35:49] <pfred1> maybe you can get me a new needle for my binks?
[00:35:55] <pfred1> I tried here no one has it
[00:36:09] <les> whoa some rot
[00:36:14] <pfred1> it's like a million years old i need one of those HVLP guns
[00:36:14] <les> what model
[00:36:25] <pfred1> that's my toyota pickup
[00:36:31] <pfred1>
[00:36:33] <pfred1> whole page
[00:36:58] <pfred1> it must have used to belonged to wonder woman it's her old see through truck
[00:37:18] <pfred1> my neighbors love me :)
[00:37:29] <les> neat...lots of work
[00:37:37] <pfred1> only took like 3 days
[00:37:45] <pfred1> wasn't too bad really looks bad
[00:37:49] <pfred1> but it went smoothly
[00:38:30] <pfred1> that stuff what was left was like tissue paper
[00:38:42] <les> up to 55 degrees...no clouds...no wind
[00:38:48] <pfred1> golf?
[00:39:03] <les> figure out new titanium driver
[00:39:35] <les> I am only a 120 lb weakling....but I hit it 240 yards
[00:39:49] <pfred1> yeah?
[00:39:50] <les> now to work on the direction...
[00:39:56] <pfred1> I can maybe drive a ball 200
[00:40:11] <pfred1> and where it's going is anyone's guess
[00:40:20] <pfred1> golf isn't really my game
[00:40:37] <les> I just started with this golf thing and got some muscles after a few thousand hits at the range
[00:40:58] <pfred1> it's good exersize gets you out and about
[00:40:59] <les> I am not good at it...but needed something to get away from work
[00:41:09] <les> I work too much
[00:41:12] <pfred1> me i play until i lose a ball then I'm done
[00:41:29] <pfred1> I'd play better if i didn't laugh so hard while trying to hit the thing
[00:41:41] <les> oh it will be an easter egg hubt today...fall leaves
[00:41:44] <les> hunt
[00:41:52] <pfred1> I'm like OK so the object here is to hit this poor defenceless ball on the ground?
[00:42:02] <pfred1> I can do that!
[00:42:20] <pfred1> up here the screwballs golf in the snow
[00:42:27] <pfred1> they use orange balls though
[00:42:51] <pfred1> here's my last paintjob with very rough like as in I didn't care bodywork
[00:42:58] <pfred1>
[00:43:06] <pfred1> the object there was one color no holes
[00:43:13] <les> nice courses here...(finds picture)
[00:43:21] <les> http://www.kingwoodresort.com/
[00:43:35] <pfred1> you have to contrast those pics with these
[00:43:40] <pfred1>
[00:44:28] <pfred1> long as i don't hear the deliverance thime straining in the background I'm OK with it :)
[00:44:31] <pfred1> theme even
[00:45:09] <pfred1> my aunt went to a garage sale burt reynolds held once
[00:45:19] <les> haw...you know deliverance was filmed right here where I am
[00:45:26] <pfred1> yeah it looks it
[00:45:33] <pfred1> I been there
[00:45:49] <pfred1> and that movie ain't so far from the truth that i don't worry everytime i drive through those parts
[00:46:10] <les> the movie was 100% accurate
[00:46:13] <les> haha
[00:46:22] <pfred1> I don't get off the highway!
[00:46:43] <pfred1> sometimes i visit my uncle in alabama
[00:46:46] <pfred1> oh man!
[00:46:51] <paul_c> It's a lie - The natives are quite friendly
[00:47:09] <pfred1> paul_c see now that's just the problem they're to ofriendly!
[00:47:16] <pfred1> I don't want to know them that well
[00:47:23] <pfred1> in any carnal sense of the word
[00:47:36] <les> oh haha the girls down here like Paul C
[00:47:51] <pfred1> and toothless why that's jsut a plus now isn't it?
[00:47:57] <les> He can't seem to find one with teeth...
[00:48:11] <pfred1> heh yeah the old toothless joke
[00:48:30] <pfred1> when i hit out to the woods i go in the other direction
[00:48:35] <pfred1> I go to upstate maine
[00:48:35] <les> actually some do have teeth...but they come out at night
[00:49:57] <pfred1> the fabled Chattooga River
[00:50:11] <les> 5 miles from here
[00:50:33] <pfred1> man i was driving through maybe it's a different place Chatanooga you know the place with the railroad song?
[00:50:42] <pfred1> maybe i just don't knmow how t ospell it
[00:50:55] <pfred1> but anyways I was driving around chatanooga one morning
[00:50:55] <les> both are close by
[00:51:10] <les> the town is a ways away
[00:51:18] <pfred1> and i swear all them natives they must have thought they were dale earnhart
[00:51:26] <les> haha
[00:51:33] <pfred1> funny now manbe
[00:51:38] <pfred1> but scared me silly then!
[00:52:01] <pfred1> no it was pretty touch and go throug hthere
[00:52:18] <les> I drive slow...If I want to go fast I get in something with wings
[00:52:50] <pfred1> well sometimes traffic flow prohibits slow driving
[00:53:02] <les> yeah like Atlanta
[00:53:07] <pfred1> I mean yo ufeel as if I'd better move or they going to run me off the road
[00:53:14] <les> yup
[00:53:42] <pfred1> once i was coming home from connecuit and I am not kidding I was doing 105 and it wasn't fast enough!
[00:53:59] <pfred1> I was not keeping up with the flow of traffic
[00:54:10] <pfred1> the car would not go any faster either
[00:54:14] <les> I go fast in Europe...have to
[00:54:37] <pfred1> yeah usually I'm happy to do 65
[00:54:43] <pfred1> I figure slow and steady wins the race
[00:55:19] <pfred1> a mile a minute you will get there
[00:55:20] <les> yup
[00:55:30] <les> well off to the course for me
[00:55:35] <pfred1> more than likely in one piece
[00:55:44] <pfred1> yeah i gotta rake leaves i guess
[00:56:04] <pfred1> OK off to rake here
[00:56:07] <les> be back later
[01:08:31] <emctest> Morning John, (emctest is Steve)
[01:08:39] <jmkasunich> hi steve
[01:12:50] <emctest> Awfully quiet around here, anything up with EMC2?
[01:13:26] <jmkasunich> Alex and Jon Stark are continuing to work on the autoconf stuff
[01:13:40] <jmkasunich> I've been out of it for a couple of weeks - real live got very busy
[01:14:55] <emctest> Somewhat the same here. Finally got back to the step-servo driver. At the Iron Fever show I got a dose of economic reality and am retargeting for large machines like Bridgeports.
[01:16:06] <jmkasunich> small machine folks have shallow pockets?
[01:18:08] <emctest> Very much so, they compare directly to stepper motor when looking at cost. I cannot offer the features I would like in that price range, not to mention not making any money. The mid range is nicely filled by Gecko, so that leaves the the upper end of the range.
[01:19:02] <jmkasunich> how do you differentiate yourself form Gecko? Is "midrange" and "upper end" based on power (amps/volts) or features?
[01:20:33] <jmkasunich> hi ray
[01:20:52] <rayh> Hi John.
[01:21:06] <emctest> Will be trying for 160 volts and 20 to 40 amps (servo ratings all seem overstated to me) and including shorts protection, PWM filter, better options for encoder ratios.
[01:21:38] <jmkasunich> why 160V?
[01:21:55] <jmkasunich> if your going that hi, I'd go all the way and design it for rectified 120V line
[01:22:09] <jmkasunich> at those power levels, transformers start getting expensive
[01:22:23] <emctest> Sweet spot in MOSFETs is a 200 volt device. Rectified line scares me from a liability standpoint.
[01:22:59] <jmkasunich> 160V is scary whether it's rectified or not
[01:23:08] <jmkasunich> duh
[01:23:18] <jmkasunich> I meant whether its isolated or not
[01:23:25] <emctest> Besides, the Bridgeport stepper machines already have a 120 to 150 volt DC bus.
[01:23:49] <jmkasunich> ok, that changes things - but isn't that a pretty narrow niche?
[01:24:27] <emctest> Not sure about the typical servo machines from the 1970 to current era, but most I have seen include a transformer based supply.
[01:24:35] <rayh> I thought series 1 was 57 volt.
[01:25:33] <jmkasunich> I'm biased by my VFD experience - everything we do is direct rectified line, we isolate at the gate drivers and current feedback
[01:26:20] <jmkasunich> IF your customers are retrofitting machines that already have isolated DC power, then go for it
[01:26:33] <emctest> There is a funny supply in the Bridgeport machines. A magnetic amp is used to reduce the supply voltage at idle. You may still be right about some of the machines having lower supply voltage.
[01:26:42] <jmkasunich> but if they are building from scratch, direct is much smaller, lighter, and probably cheaper (for them)
[01:27:39] <emctest> I would expect 90 percent of my target customers to be doing conversions.
[01:27:50] <jmkasunich> there you go...
[01:28:04] <danfalck> morning guys
[01:28:09] <jmkasunich> hi dan
[01:28:29] <rayh> emctest: Is this US voltages?
[01:29:01] <emctest> Ray - US machines, don't understand question.
[01:29:24] <rayh> Are you using US voltages, 120 240 480?
[01:29:30] <emctest> Yes
[01:29:55] <rayh> Okay.
[01:31:20] <rayh> I've seen Mazak run rectivfied 240 -- 360 to some of their drives.
[01:32:02] <rayh> For a couple years they tried to run without transformers but noise killed that idea.
[01:32:54] <emctest> I am frightened by the line leakage issues of a directly rectified supply. GFI protection would probably be a problem because of the high current into the rectifier bridge.
[01:33:44] <jmkasunich> main "leakage" source would be motor winding to case capacitance (with PWM)
[01:34:12] <jmkasunich> you're right that a 6mA "people protector" GFCI would probably false trip
[01:34:48] <jmkasunich> but that level of protection is rarely applied to industrial machinery with solidly grounded metal structures
[01:35:19] <jmkasunich> ground fault trip points on our drives are usually about 10% of rating
[01:35:56] <emctest> It is that solidly grounded part that worries me. Hobby users are often a bit casual about such things.
[01:36:33] <jmkasunich> I can see the concern if you are talking about some guy with a tabletop machine
[01:36:57] <jmkasunich> but anyone who runs a bport sized machine without a ground is an idiot - CNC or not
[01:37:20] <jmkasunich> ordinary spindle motors have been known to fail to ground
[01:38:33] <emctest> Twice in the last 5 years I have touch a Bridgeport in a friends shop and gotten a telltale tingle.
[01:38:55] <jmkasunich> same machine twice, or two different ones?
[01:39:32] <jmkasunich> my dad's old drillpress would do that - probably either motor capacitance passing 60Hz, or leaky insulation
[01:39:40] <emctest> Different ones (I insisted each time that it be fixed). As to spindle motors, if they cause the problems, I should not be liable.
[01:40:05] <jmkasunich> understood - you have good reasons for going the way you are... I should just drop it
[01:40:39] <jmkasunich> do you intend to ground either side of your DC bus?
[01:41:16] <emctest> Curiosity, with the isolation in your drives being at the IGBT driver, what PWM frequencies can you support?
[01:41:39] <jmkasunich> the big ones I work on do 2 and 4HKz, but that is switching loss limited
[01:41:46] <jmkasunich> little ones do 10-12KHz
[01:41:50] <emctest> I figure that the negative DC bus would typically get grounded.
[01:41:58] <jmkasunich> and the drivers are capable of much more - 20KHz easy
[01:42:03] <emctest> I was hoping to support 40KHz PWM.
[01:42:12] <jmkasunich> shouldn't be a problem
[01:42:19] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich googles
[01:44:54] <jmkasunich> http://we.home.agilent.com/USeng/nav/-25588.536883802/pd.html
[01:45:42] <rayh> Morning dave and dan.
[01:45:54] <dave-e> morning ray
[01:46:14] <dave-e> paul must be asleep...he has not run to hide <grin>
[01:47:01] <dave-e> how spendy is that opto-igbt?
[01:47:04] <paul_c> * paul_c is outside in the greenhouse...
[01:48:22] <jmkasunich> dunno pricing offhand
[01:48:50] <danfalck> good morning ray
[01:48:57] <jmkasunich> we're using something different these days cause we need much more gate current than those can provide
[01:49:38] <jmkasunich> http://www.agilent.com/about/newsroom/presrel/2003/11aug2003d.html
[01:49:49] <jmkasunich> they've expanded the line since I last used them
[01:50:04] <jmkasunich> I used the 3120 (2A) and 3150 (0.5A)
[01:50:14] <jmkasunich> now they have extra fast ones (3180)
[01:50:33] <emctest> Dave - $2.35 in hundreds.
[01:50:41] <dave-e> looks like 3.80 ea.
[01:51:26] <jmkasunich> we also used to use the TLP-250 opto as a gate driver (Toshiba) but I can find online data
[01:51:47] <jmkasunich> http://we.home.agilent.com/cgi-bin/bvpub/agilent/Product/cp_ProductComparison.jsp?NAV_ID=-25588.0.00&LANGUAGE_CODE=eng&COUNTRY_CODE=US
[01:52:18] <jmkasunich> complete list of gate drive optos from Agilent (formerly HP - why do they keep changing their name?)
[01:53:03] <jmkasunich> hmmm... looks like HL makes a TLP-250 clonee
[01:53:35] <emctest> Cost of the high side power supply to run them would also be an issue.
[01:54:00] <emctest> Then you have to add the cost of isolated current feedback.
[01:54:27] <jmkasunich> yeah... there are definitely tradoffs, and at low power levels maybe it doesn't make sense
[01:54:50] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich doesn't like control circuits and power circuits that are connected
[01:55:23] <jmkasunich> (we have to use isolated power for the low side too - total of 6 power supplies for a three phase bridge)
[01:55:47] <emctest> Understandable (noise issues, safety, etc.) but when competing in the Gecko/Rutex arena cost is an issue.
[01:56:15] <jmkasunich> cause when phase A switches, the L*di/dT voltage can cause A's emitter (source) to be 50V away from B's emitter
[01:56:40] <emctest> OUCH!
[01:56:47] <jmkasunich> anyway, getting back to where I was when I asked about grounding
[01:57:06] <jmkasunich> C*dv/dt currents _will_ flow from the motor case back to the ground point
[01:57:22] <emctest> Reality sucks.
[01:57:39] <jmkasunich> and they are high freq currents, so make sure you have a good path from motor case to ground point
[01:57:54] <jmkasunich> best to mount the drive box on the machine somewhere
[01:58:03] <emctest> PWM output filter will help a little bit.
[01:58:33] <jmkasunich> true (something else I'm not accustomed to - not practical at my power level)
[01:58:55] <jmkasunich> will the filter address common mode as well as normal mode?
[01:59:14] <jmkasunich> (cause case current is driven by common mode)
[01:59:22] <emctest> I will certainly have recommed practices that include frame grounding recommendations.
[02:00:39] <emctest> Filter would only be across motor terminals (normal?), no cap to ground in filter.
[02:00:56] <jmkasunich> then it will have little effect on motor case current
[02:01:31] <jmkasunich> what is the filter topology? an inductor in series with each motor lead, and a cap across the motor leads on load side of inductors?
[02:02:16] <emctest> That is present assumption. Common mode filter would require more C to get same results. C is not too expensive, maybe I should consider it.
[02:03:07] <jmkasunich> is the filter sized to actually "filter out" the PWM? or just slow down the edges from 50-100nS to several uS?
[02:04:29] <jmkasunich> just doing the latter would help as far as case current is concerned
[02:05:55] <emctest> checking LC values.....
[02:09:23] <emctest> 27 uH each leg, 2 uF across motor terminals
[02:10:17] <jmkasunich> resonant at 15KHz, if I did the math right
[02:10:27] <jmkasunich> so you are actually filtering out the PWM
[02:11:46] <jmkasunich> you could reduce common mode rise time (and thus peak case current) with much smaller caps from each motor lead to the negative bus
[02:12:20] <jmkasunich> .01 would do it
[02:12:30] <emctest> Good advice, thanks.
[02:12:56] <jmkasunich> gotta be carefull tho, might cause ringing at about 200-300KHz
[02:13:10] <jmkasunich> do you have spice or equivalent?
[02:14:15] <emctest> Ancient Pspice, not sure I could even run it. I'm mostly a digital type. Any freeware with a GUI out there?
[02:14:36] <jmkasunich> dunno
[02:18:02] <jmkasunich> for this, spice might be more trouble than it's worth, unless you were already proficient
[02:18:02] <jmkasunich> but if you're mostly digital, who designed your filter?
[02:18:02] <emctest> 8-)
[02:18:02] <jmkasunich> the reason I ask - the filter is resonant at 15KHz, and might have a pretty high Q
[02:18:02] <jmkasunich> it will interact with the motor and servo loop - I don't know how severely - maybe negligable, maybe not
[02:18:02] <jmkasunich> you are closing a current loop, right?
[02:19:54] <emctest> Not real time. Error controls PWM duty cycle. Duty is 50% to stay at rest. Current loop affects PWM only if current is above limit.
[02:20:16] <jmkasunich> what kind of error? current, velocity, or position?
[02:22:22] <emctest> Command input is steps, so error is position. May try a few tricks to take velocity into consideration, but that will be experimental.
[02:22:40] <jmkasunich> tuning is gonna be "interesting"
[02:23:18] <emctest> Must work in practice, "everybody" does it.
[02:23:40] <jmkasunich> position is the integral of speed, speed is the integral of torque (current), and current is the integral of voltage (given a mostly inductive armature)
[02:23:50] <jmkasunich> three integrators, each with 90 deg phase lag
[02:25:21] <emctest> Output of control loop is PWM offset which equates to a speed/direction command to the motor.
[02:27:04] <jmkasunich> let's see if I understand you... command is a position, in steps (achieved by counting input steps)
[02:27:21] <jmkasunich> feedback is a position, in counts (achieved by counting encoder pulses)
[02:27:31] <jmkasunich> then you take the difference
[02:27:47] <jmkasunich> (possibly by using an up/down counter, rather then two separate counters)
[02:27:55] <jmkasunich> that is position error, in steps
[02:28:00] <jmkasunich> correct so far?
[02:29:16] <emctest> Yes, though encoder resolution may be greater and we could be working in units "smaller" than a full step when computing error.
[02:29:35] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:29:53] <jmkasunich> so the units are really encoder counts
[02:30:25] <jmkasunich> and a command step may be more than one encoder count (like the gecko step multiplier?)
[02:31:14] <emctest> Yes, but without the VCO smoothing of the Gecko pulse multiplier.
[02:31:18] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:31:25] <jmkasunich> so now we have a position error
[02:31:47] <jmkasunich> assume the load is largly inertia, not friction
[02:32:00] <jmkasunich> also assume the motor armature is largly inductive, not resistive
[02:43:02] <jmkasunich> torque mode can probably give better top-end performance, but may be much harder to tune unless you really know what you are doing
[02:43:16] <ottos> when you mention top end ? wht do you exaclty mean? how fast?
[02:43:44] <jmkasunich> not just how fast, but how responsive
[02:44:04] <jmkasunich> being able to quickly accelerate and decelreate, etc
[02:44:19] <ottos> ah...so much nervous system...:D
[02:45:23] <ottos> so would you recomend to start with speed mode and learn on it and eventually switch to torque once one knows what he is doing?
[02:45:56] <jmkasunich> start with speed mode, and switch only if speed mode can't do what you need it to do
[02:46:25] <rayh> Does one of these modes require tach feedback?
[02:47:34] <jmkasunich> probably depends on the drive/amp
[02:47:59] <ottos> the same in here...ac drives use the encoder in the motor
[02:48:20] <jmkasunich> otto - are you talking about AC drives, or DC?
[02:48:31] <rayh> So encoder is connected to drive amp and pulses used for velocity?
[02:48:31] <ottos> ac
[02:48:44] <jmkasunich> sounds that way, ray
[02:49:08] <rayh> That is getting pretty common.
[02:50:36] <rayh> JonE said he was using closed loop servo with no velocity feedback to his amp.
[02:50:56] <jmkasunich> I think that amounts to torque mode
[02:51:04] <jmkasunich> Les also runs his amps in torque mode
[02:51:08] <rayh> That would be my thinking.
[02:51:20] <jmkasunich> but Les is a math genius, and knows how to tune for that
[02:51:37] <rayh> Both of them making a PWM signal.
[02:51:43] <ottos> another thing that I'm wondering about is the PID tunning. Do you tune the mechanical parts/ apms portion first and the the EMC?
[02:52:29] <rayh> I'd think you do without PID on the amp. Simply an H-Bridge.
[02:53:13] <ottos> ? H ?
[02:53:34] <jmkasunich> ottos: ray is talking about a DC servo
[02:53:53] <jmkasunich> H-bridge is an arrangement of power transistors, like the letter 'H'
[02:54:11] <jmkasunich> where the vertical legs are transistors, and the horizontal bar is the motor armature
[02:54:20] <jmkasunich> ac drives use a different arrangement
[02:54:28] <jmkasunich> (6 transistors instead of 4)
[02:54:28] <ottos> ok thanks
[02:55:22] <rayh> Thanks for the exp, John. I was trying to think how to say it.
[03:01:38] <emctest> OK, back to the step-servo error loop......
[03:02:09] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich listens
[03:03:32] <emctest> You were talking about all the phase lags and I thought going to comment further on the implications of position in - speed out control implications.
[03:04:14] <emctest> I would comment that when we approach correct position at non-zero velocity, the D term of PID should be helping.
[03:04:42] <jmkasunich> where is this PID? you mean EMC's PID, or you are implementing PID in your amp?
[03:05:35] <emctest> PID in the amp. Plus some possible twiddles to help, anti-dither, perhaps some blended feedback base on FF or velocity.
[03:05:52] <jmkasunich> ok, I misunderstood
[03:06:16] <jmkasunich> earlier I said: you are making the PWM track the error directly?
[03:06:31] <emctest> Gecko, Rutex, and all the others use some form of PID.
[03:06:39] <jmkasunich> and you said:Assume yes for now. Later we will add anti-dither and possible enhancements.
[03:06:42] <emctest> Directl was too strong a term, sorry.
[03:07:04] <jmkasunich> directly pretty much meant "P only" as I was using it
[03:07:39] <emctest> This driver would be used with software that outputs step pulses and does not accept positon feedback.
[03:07:49] <jmkasunich> ok
[03:08:06] <jmkasunich> PID in the amp will help
[03:08:13] <jmkasunich> but getting back to the original issue
[03:08:23] <jmkasunich> the filter will add it's response to that of the motor
[03:08:34] <jmkasunich> which may complicate tuning
[03:08:47] <jmkasunich> are you going to evaluate the PID every PWM period?
[03:09:25] <emctest> Thinking yes. Stability better if PID is slower or if filter is slower?
[03:10:01] <jmkasunich> hard to say
[03:10:17] <emctest> Maybe PID bandwidth should be limited to less than filter bandwidth.
[03:10:28] <jmkasunich> if the filter response is much faster than the PID update rate, then you can pretty much ignore it
[03:10:44] <jmkasunich> but if you lower the PID rate, you limit the responsiveness of the servo system
[03:11:41] <jmkasunich> are you gonna have any current feedback (other than a comparator that says "below/above limit"?
[03:11:48] <emctest> EMC is most often set up with 1 or 2 KHz update. I guess my drive could surive easily with 5KHz.
[03:13:01] <emctest> Baseline approach only looks at below/above. Considering actual current would be one of the "twiddles" that I mentioned experimenting with.
[03:13:51] <jmkasunich> It's hard to think about sample rates without knowing some real motor numbers
[03:13:56] <jmkasunich> like inductance
[03:14:56] <jmkasunich> for example, if you go from 0 volts (50/50 duty?) to max volts (100%), how long does it take for the current to go from zero to 50% of motor rating?
[03:16:04] <jmkasunich> that would be a suitable sample time for the PID (or maybe a little less, 0-25% current rise time perhaps
[03:16:26] <ottos> John for a 3.9 ms can I assume it is 1s/inductance? for the update rate?
[03:16:48] <jmkasunich> huh?
[03:17:23] <emctest> Drivers for general application need to deal with full range of motors with PID adjustments and perhaps one "low-inductance" setting.
[03:17:30] <ottos> say the inductance is 3.9ms, can I assume the min update rate should be 1s/3.9ms?
[03:17:56] <jmkasunich> ms is milliseconds, that's a time unit, not inductance
[03:18:07] <jmkasunich> inductance is Henries, or mH, uH, etc
[03:18:35] <jmkasunich> the update rate cannot be determined from inductance alone
[03:19:12] <jmkasunich> example:
[03:19:19] <jmkasunich> motor rated amps: 10A
[03:19:29] <jmkasunich> DC Bus volts: 100V
[03:19:36] <jmkasunich> motor inductance: 3mH
[03:20:11] <jmkasunich> motor di/dt = V/L = 100V/0.003H = 33,333A/sec
[03:21:26] <jmkasunich> time to rise from 0-25% of motor rating = (25%*10A)/33,333A/sec = 75uS
[03:21:31] <jmkasunich> if I did the math right
[03:22:59] <jmkasunich> I don't know if that is an appropriate PID period or not... I'm pretty sure you don't need to be any faster than that, but you might get away with being somewhat slower
[03:23:09] <ottos> ok...I see I just found some of the freq of operation in my manual...it also includes acc, load, etc...thank :D
[03:26:19] <ottos> a quick one on counterbalancing, did anyone use some other means on vertical axis counterbalance other than pneumatic.?
[03:28:34] <rayh> We used gas springs at Smithy.
[03:29:03] <ottos> they work well?
[03:29:08] <rayh> Many commercial machines use motor torque and a brake.
[03:29:47] <rayh> Yes the gas springs work very well. Used a bit more pull that the load so if they move when the motor is shut off they will move up.
[03:31:25] <rayh> I've seen some counterbalanced z but that doubles inertia.
[03:31:55] <ottos> with pneumatic?
[03:32:18] <rayh> No pneumatic should work fairly well.
[03:32:28] <rayh> I've seen a couple of commercial machines that do this.
[03:33:14] <ottos> I have a prob with my z axis that if I cut upwards I loosing possition (stepper setup)
[03:33:39] <rayh> Yep. Had that problem with Sherline.
[03:33:57] <ottos> good pneumatic it is..:D
[03:33:58] <rayh> We just set accel low enough to handle the problem.
[03:34:15] <ottos> tried that no go...
[03:34:26] <rayh> That degrades the performance of the whole unit a bit.
[03:34:37] <rayh> Are you full stepping?
[03:34:42] <ottos> half..
[03:34:59] <rayh> Ah. We quarter step the Sherline.
[03:35:41] <rayh> Accel works a bit better that way.
[03:35:55] <ottos> I'm quite happy with the performance of my pressent mochine (35mm/sec full speed) not bad for steppers
[03:36:40] <rayh> Sounds good. My Grizzly will handle about 40.
[03:38:11] <ottos> do you loose any steps after a program run?
[03:38:14] <emctest> Leaving to eat, will log for a while.....
[03:38:49] <rayh> No. But I worked to get that.
[03:38:55] <ottos> ?
[03:39:36] <ottos> after about 3h of machining i loose +-.75mm
[03:39:42] <rayh> 3x1 belt ratio. 85 volt supply, gecko 210 drives, ball screws.
[03:40:21] <rayh> Had a similar problem with the prototype Sherline.
[03:40:43] <rayh> Turns out some direction reversals happened to quick for the drive they designed.
[03:41:17] <rayh> Matt had to write in SETUP and HOLD times in freqmod.
[03:41:36] <ottos> hold times ?
[03:42:06] <rayh> How long a step had to wait after a direction change.
[03:42:33] <rayh> Or was it the other way round?
[03:42:46] <rayh> * rayh needs more coffee.
[03:42:57] <rayh> * rayh or a younger brain.
[03:43:24] <ottos> :d...I have to jet. ciao
[03:43:39] <rayh> catch you later.
[03:52:35] <rayh> * rayh quits to take on family duties.
[04:02:07] <paul_c> drat - I keep losing an ftp connection....
[04:02:27] <paul_c> Only another 9.4Gig to go
[04:22:44] <danfalck> paul_c: hello
[04:29:12] <paul_c> Hi Dan
[04:30:23] <danfalck> I'm just now trying to figure out how to run TkEMC on the Mac and the motion stuff on the Linux box
[04:30:34] <danfalck> Reading the handbook chapter...
[04:30:46] <danfalck> I need to compile emcsh on this Mac
[04:31:01] <paul_c> and rcslib
[04:31:26] <danfalck> oh. maybe I'll try it some other time then....
[04:31:43] <danfalck> backing away slowly....
[04:32:54] <danfalck> I'm not that hooked on the Mac :)
[04:33:13] <danfalck> I got Varkon CAD running last night
[04:39:42] <paul_c> Has Varkon gotten any easier to use ?
[04:40:12] <danfalck> no
[04:40:31] <danfalck> I've just learned how to use it a little bit more :)
[04:40:52] <danfalck> I don't think the developers want it to be easier to use
[04:41:08] <danfalck> they want it to be the basis for other things
[04:41:19] <paul_c> So we can label you as the Varkon expert ?
[04:41:31] <danfalck> probably can
[04:41:48] <danfalck> me and David McMillan, who uses it purely with the command line
[04:42:24] <danfalck> I'm just stubborn enough to think that it could be useful
[04:42:52] <danfalck> it's easier for me than Qcad
[04:44:06] <dave-e> what do you do for CAM?
[04:44:47] <danfalck> I have been using Vector on win98 - although not in a long time
[04:45:08] <danfalck> used it on a Mandrake box through Win4Lin too.
[04:45:21] <danfalck> Ran better than on a native machine
[04:46:06] <danfalck> could just click on the app and windows was already booted up
[04:46:15] <danfalck> kill it fast when I was done
[04:46:25] <danfalck> and it couldn't do any harm to the machine
[04:46:47] <danfalck> Admittely, I haven't been doing any CAM at home for a long time
[04:47:17] <danfalck> dave-e: what are you using?
[04:47:37] <dave-e> I'm still hand coding...
[04:49:08] <dave-e> off of autosketch
[04:49:48] <dave-e> basically the only reason I keep any M$ stuff
[04:52:40] <danfalck> so you open the entities in an info box and copy down the points?
[04:53:47] <dave-e> actually it can be done off the drawing...click on a line and get both ends...click on a circle and get radiius and center
[04:54:02] <dave-e> tedious but works
[04:54:14] <danfalck> I've done a lot of that too.
[04:54:49] <dave-e> I still think in 2.5D
[04:55:13] <danfalck> for most things I do, me too.
[04:55:46] <paul_c> * paul_c has to go and feed the animals.
[04:55:51] <danfalck> 2.5D for text engraving, milling pockets, milling edges, turning profiles
[04:55:59] <danfalck> boring holes
[04:56:04] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: gone to feed the wrinkly.
[04:58:52] <dave-e> most of what I do needs to emualte parts made on a horizontal a 100+ years ago.
[04:59:12] <danfalck> what are you making?
[04:59:26] <dave-e> X,Y,Z,and A are almost essential
[04:59:37] <dave-e> CW gun parts
[04:59:59] <dave-e> breechblocks always rusted out ...did not wear out
[05:00:15] <dave-e> because of the corrosive effects of black powder
[05:00:22] <danfalck> sharpes rifle?
[05:00:31] <dave-e> Starr
[05:00:37] <dave-e> Spencer
[05:01:05] <dave-e> although the issue with the Spencer is a rim fire to center fire conversion
[05:01:36] <danfalck> what kind of machinery are you using?
[05:02:09] <dave-e> s cincinatti ram vertical (think BP) and hopefully soon a Mazak V5
[05:02:45] <dave-e> I pretty much have the 3 phase converter (rotary) in place
[05:04:12] <dave-e> gotta go....catch everyone later.
[05:04:20] <danfalck> talk to you later
[05:04:26] <danfalck> * danfalck is away: going out to the shop...
[05:59:15] <robin_sz> bon soir mes amis, c� va?
[06:00:07] <robin_sz> * robin_sz had the French to visit the last two days
[06:50:25] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[06:50:36] <robin_sz> where did you go?
[06:50:47] <paul_c> to feed the wrinkly.
[06:51:12] <robin_sz> liquidised food?
[06:51:21] <paul_c> solids
[06:51:25] <robin_sz> coo.
[06:51:54] <robin_sz> been having fun with this Burny CNC controller
[06:52:09] <robin_sz> a bit ... errrmmm ... basic.
[06:54:49] <robin_sz> it has some very kewl features (like when the arc goes out, you can 'back up' along the path to there it went wrong, change nozzles, and then restart
[06:55:06] <robin_sz> but the motion configuration is barking
[07:34:12] <CIA-1> 03paul_c 07auto_configure_0_1 * 10emc2/debian/ (changelog control copyright rules):
[07:34:12] <CIA-1> Basic framework to create a Debian package for emc2 - Need to do a *LOT* more
[07:34:12] <CIA-1> work on this, in particular, integration with make-kpkg so that the realtime
[07:34:12] <CIA-1> modules can be built alongside the kernel. Probably need to build two packages
[07:34:12] <CIA-1> for this ro work, but hey, apt-get makes installation a doddle.
[07:37:21] <paul_c> * paul_c wonders if jmkasunich is in hiding...
[07:39:31] <paul_c> <Gulp>
[07:40:05] <ottos> Hi Paul ...all
[07:40:21] <paul_c> Evening ottos
[07:40:33] <ottos> did I miss anything?
[07:40:55] <paul_c> No more than I did.
[07:41:15] <ottos> :D
[07:42:07] <ottos> I've beed poking around and does anyone know where the module for look ahead is located?
[07:42:45] <paul_c> how do you mean ?
[07:43:12] <ottos> the machine look ahead which controls the feed rate based on velocity and vector..
[07:43:41] <paul_c> The contour blending routine
[07:44:15] <ottos> something like that..
[07:45:05] <robin_sz> theres the segmotqueue stuff as well ...
[07:45:32] <paul_c> Look at tp.c & tc.c
[07:48:58] <ottos> ok..tnkx
[07:53:40] <paul_c> there is some additional math done in cubic.c - But this is mainly to do with breaking the commanded move in to way points for the lower levels.
[08:00:53] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is back
[08:01:08] <ottos> ok time to go agin..ciao to all..
[08:01:13] <jmkasunich> bye
[08:01:43] <paul_c> * paul_c was starting to think jmkasunich was playing "hard to get".
[08:01:59] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is playing "family responsibilities"
[08:03:57] <paul_c> We need to settle on a "Default" install tree for deb & rpm packages.
[08:04:35] <jmkasunich> all I've learned from the recent "where do things go" threads is that I should stay out of them
[08:06:14] <paul_c> So it is left to who ever codes the build scripts ?
[08:08:35] <jmkasunich> I don't know
[08:09:00] <jmkasunich> but I'm not really qualified to comment - I don't know the "unix way"
[08:11:53] <paul_c> Without dynamic libs, the tree is fairly location independant...
[08:12:26] <jmkasunich> that's good - IMO, the installed tree should resemble the compiled one as much as possible
[08:13:21] <paul_c> In due course, we will be tied to a couple of specific directories
[08:13:57] <paul_c> for dynamic libs, LANG.po, and kernel modules.
[08:14:48] <jmkasunich> right - but my goal would be to have the compiled and installed trees as similar as possible, with variations only where needed
[08:17:36] <paul_c> For the language support files, we are restricted by the underlying gettext support.
[09:51:28] <pfred1> paul_c english is fine :)
[09:54:29] <paul_c> English or 'mericun ;)
[09:54:40] <pfred1> yall!
[09:56:55] <paul_c> * paul_c notes that Tcl supports language files for dialects in addition to main language
[09:57:18] <pfred1> the first language Linux supported was redneck
[09:58:33] <paul_c> en_US_mountain-hick
[09:59:02] <paul_c> or en_GB_welsh
[09:59:36] <pfred1> man what's with these idiots and tubes?
[10:00:28] <paul_c> Que ?
[10:00:53] <pfred1> I'm looking up amp schematics o nthe net and google keep throwing tube circuits at me i hate tubes!
[10:02:13] <paul_c> tubes keep you nice'n'warm in the winter
[10:02:27] <pfred1> not when they burn out they don't
[10:02:37] <pfred1> transistors keep you warm a lot longer
[10:03:03] <pfred1> the whole tube mystique is bull
[10:03:07] <paul_c> Tubes give off a nice glow in the dark...
[10:03:14] <pfred1> throw an LED on it
[10:03:23] <pfred1> I always do to bleed the filter caps
[10:04:31] <pfred1> tubes run at like 400V which I can personally attest to it being a very shocking experience when fiddling with them
[10:05:07] <pfred1> I been hammered by a 300 MFD cap at 400V it's not fun
[10:06:00] <paul_c> at least you know the circuit is live
[10:06:11] <pfred1> nope amp was deader than a doornail
[10:08:53] <pfred1> woo look at this!
[10:30:05] <paul_c> Yo Ray.
[10:30:49] <rayh> Hi Paul
[10:31:09] <rayh> Getting a bit late there. How you doing?
[10:32:59] <paul_c> Someone asking about customising the mini GUI over on the CCED list...
[10:33:42] <rayh> What did they want to do with it?
[10:34:38] <paul_c> Alan Rothenbush - Just wants to "modify it". No specifics...
[10:34:56] <paul_c> going to suggest he joins the emc lists
[10:35:12] <rayh> I've spoken with Alan a few times.
[10:35:50] <paul_c> * paul_c points out Ray is *the* tcl/tk guru.
[10:36:01] <rayh> Don't remember his addy.
[10:37:01] <rayh> Ray is *the* tcl/tk guru -- yea right. Now I know that you lie.
[10:37:53] <paul_c> at least I didn't quote your phone number ;-/
[10:38:17] <rayh> That's been out there enough I should change it.
[10:39:11] <rayh> Still trying to work my way through a routine that will allow jog increments to follow units definitions.
[10:39:41] <rayh> How is the emc.deb going?
[10:40:08] <paul_c> gone from version 0.0-0 to 0.0-1
[10:41:04] <paul_c> add the KDE icon & menu entries next
[10:41:42] <rayh> Will these be bypassed if there is no kde on the target system?
[10:42:32] <paul_c> menu entries can be used by Gnome (I think)
[10:42:46] <paul_c> and icons are universal
[10:43:18] <paul_c> Morning Djinn_
[10:44:57] <paul_c> I've committed the Deb. rules to SF for emc2
[10:45:15] <paul_c> so we can pick over the options there...
[10:49:24] <paul_c> rayh: Just a thought.... Would it be better if jog units were converted in emcsh rather at the GUI level ?
[10:56:33] <paul_c> In emcsh.cc: sendJogIncr() - Call convertLinearUnits() on the jog increment.
[10:57:30] <paul_c> This should automatically convert based on the current unit type.
[11:12:59] <rayh> paul_c: I was on the phone sorry.
[11:13:55] <rayh> I don't know about emcsh. It would have to report the size of the units to the tickle so it might be a tossup.
[11:14:32] <rayh> What I'm trying is a set of numbers from 1-5 which are assigned values whenever the unit changes.
[11:14:43] <paul_c> tickle sets a global var to indicate what units are currently in use
[11:15:18] <rayh> Right. I use that to choose the set of increments to be selected from.
[11:15:23] <paul_c> and there is a small function that does an auto-convert when passed a number
[11:15:31] <pfred1> tickle me Elmo!
[11:15:46] <rayh> He..He..He..
[11:15:56] <paul_c> OK - Finished editing the code...
[11:16:27] <paul_c> Want me to commit to the single_src branch ?
[11:16:45] <rayh> Sure. What code is this?
[11:17:18] <paul_c> Smithy's
[11:17:35] <rayh> Oh. Okay.
[11:17:48] <rayh> Then are we ready to burn that disk?
[11:18:41] <paul_c> Burnt a CD Friday night...
[11:19:17] <rayh> Oh. Then it's ready for them.
[11:19:35] <paul_c> Can you take a quick look in emc/CVS/ and tell me if you have a file by the name of Tags
[11:19:55] <paul_c> The CD should be ejected.
[11:19:57] <rayh> So set my confusion straight. What are we putting in smithy tonight.
[11:20:15] <rayh> I do have the tag file and can download a new copy.
[11:21:00] <paul_c> OK, do a cvs up, and you should get my edit
[11:22:02] <paul_c> If this little hack works, it will work for all the tickle GUI's
[11:23:14] <rayh> Problem I see is how we tell the operator what the increments are.
[11:23:39] <rayh> I want 90 degrees, 15 degrees, 1 degree...
[11:24:04] <paul_c> Not done anything for angular units
[11:24:27] <rayh> i see an updated emcsh.
[11:25:14] <rayh> Did you convert values from the inch increments when mm is active?
[11:25:43] <rayh> Or are these real mm values like 10mm 1mm .1mm.
[11:26:19] <rayh> Wow. See a lot of deb stuff added in.
[11:26:59] <paul_c> (for linear units) what ever is passed to the emc_jog_incr is converted to the active unit
[11:27:34] <paul_c> nope - That isn't working...
[11:33:09] <rayh> I saw some problems a bit ago trying to manipulate units. There's display units, and xxx units and I got lost in it all.
[11:33:30] <rayh> The commands I was issuing to emcsh didn't do anything like what I wanted them to.
[11:34:11] <rayh> Or thought that they were supposed to do.
[11:39:22] <pfred1> rayh ain't computers great?
[11:39:50] <pfred1> I mean we already had women why'd we have to go and invent computers?
[11:40:03] <pfred1> more things we can't communicate with or make understand us
[11:40:09] <rayh> Uh. Yea. Don't know what I did before. But I sure have my moments.
[11:40:28] <rayh> I guess the same could be said for the women in my life...
[11:41:14] <rayh> pfred1: Tell me a bit about yourself.
[11:41:31] <pfred1> I'll be 40 next week
[11:41:40] <pfred1> really looking forward to that ...
[11:41:53] <pfred1> ah I'm an electronics nut certifiable
[11:42:09] <pfred1> run Linux 24/7
[11:42:24] <pfred1> union laborer
[11:42:49] <pfred1> like to woodwork and metalwork
[11:43:24] <pfred1> and I been on a longterm CNC project which stops and starts in fits and stages
[11:43:57] <rayh> I'm forty with 21 years experience.
[11:44:05] <pfred1> well I was going on it pretty good until i hit a shag I couldn't figure out which I figured out much later working on something unrelated
[11:44:12] <pfred1> what'd you do the other 19 years?
[11:45:01] <rayh> Ive run emc since Red Hat 5.1
[11:45:26] <pfred1> yeah I didn't know about EMC til 2002 I run linux since slackware 95 myself
[11:46:35] <pfred1> so you saying you missed out on the lifelong experience of redhat 5.0 then?
[11:46:51] <pfred1> 32,000 bugs when they lost count!
[11:47:03] <jmkasunich> sounds like windows
[11:47:18] <pfred1> redhat 5.0 made windows look well designed and thought out
[11:47:34] <pfred1> lets just say with my CDs I was the first one to embed linux
[11:47:45] <pfred1> I took one of the CDs and threw it into a sheetrock wall!
[11:48:14] <pfred1> 6.2 was nice tho
[11:48:37] <pfred1> and 7.3 is the greatest redhat there will ever be!
[11:49:17] <rayh> I switched to mandrake about 7.2
[11:49:24] <pfred1> suse for me
[11:49:48] <pfred1> suse has sucky iso distribution policy but I ftp install anyways
[11:49:52] <jmkasunich> I'm using BDI-TNG (which is RH7.x ;-)
[11:50:08] <pfred1> yeah redhat 7.x is nice
[11:50:41] <pfred1> I guess it was too nice they set a world's record with ftp downloads
[11:50:46] <paul_c> TNG=RH7.2
[11:50:56] <pfred1> but that's their fault
[11:51:37] <rayh> I've got a suse Novel enterprise server 9 evaluation set here now.
[11:51:42] <pfred1> suse is a lot like redhat without the registration for updates
[11:51:53] <rayh> Don't know what to do with it!
[11:51:55] <pfred1> and yast2 is pretty slick
[11:53:37] <pfred1> heck I think i even installed Eagle through yast
[11:53:44] <rayh> Paul was saying that he has EMC1 where it compiles under 2.6.
[11:54:42] <rayh> I think that he set it on the back burner for a bit.
[11:54:56] <rayh> Are you still running suse?
[11:55:02] <pfred1> me?
[11:55:09] <rayh> Yep.
[11:55:19] <pfred1> yes I have 2 systems running suse
[11:55:40] <pfred1> 8.2 and 9.0
[11:56:13] <rayh> We had quite a bit of discussion re suse or debian a while back.
[11:56:26] <pfred1> debian they'll never get their acts together
[11:56:31] <rayh> I've got three or four deb installs going here.
[11:56:34] <pfred1> that's how they like to be
[11:57:17] <rayh> I got turned off on Red Hat when the started customising all the packages.
[11:57:24] <pfred1> stable or unstable branches?
[11:57:37] <rayh> testing and unstable.
[11:57:52] <pfred1> yeah seems like the least stable is stable with them
[11:58:15] <rayh> There are a lot of times when an update will not run.
[11:58:22] <pfred1> don't get me wrong on one level I really want to like debian
[11:58:29] <pfred1> but hey I've used the stuff!
[11:59:07] <pfred1> it's not the image I'd want to project to someone that wasn't aware of Linux
[11:59:17] <rayh> I really like the bleeding edge unless I'm trying to set up a system for a customer.
[12:00:16] <pfred1> really I think suse is basically IBM getting their feet wet
[12:00:17] <rayh> What's your day job? You said union labor.
[12:00:23] <pfred1> right
[12:00:26] <pfred1> hiring hall
[12:00:41] <rayh> What union?
[12:00:41] <pfred1> I work commercial building trades
[12:00:47] <pfred1> LIUNA
[12:00:50] <rayh> Okay.
[12:00:59] <pfred1> Laborer's International Union of North America
[12:01:06] <rayh> Right.
[12:01:10] <pfred1> * pfred1 is a ditch digger if he's lucky :)
[12:01:16] <pfred1> I love to dig!
[12:01:26] <rayh> IBEW for a while here.
[12:01:33] <pfred1> electrician
[12:01:47] <jmkasunich> what is your day job now, ray?
[12:01:51] <pfred1> you know what everyone says that stands for I'm sure :)
[12:02:14] <rayh> My wife says Im retired. I just say tired.
[12:02:43] <pfred1> were you a mechanic?
[12:02:54] <rayh> electrician
[12:03:31] <pfred1> yeah guy I know had his own contracting biz then got into the union
[12:03:43] <rayh> jack as of all trades.
[12:03:45] <pfred1> he was licensed before he went in
[12:03:52] <rayh> I was the other way round.
[12:04:10] <pfred1> got licensed in the union?
[12:05:01] <pfred1> he got a sweet deal didn't have to apprentice
[12:05:12] <pfred1> not that he didn't in the trade scab
[12:05:38] <pfred1> he's pretty talented builds machines well used to don't know what he does now
[12:06:30] <pfred1> he's got one of them big old bomb CNC bridgeports in his garage always said he was going to refit it
[12:06:42] <pfred1> don't know if he ever got around to it or not
[12:07:05] <rayh> * rayh is on the phone for a few minutes
[12:12:56] <rayh> * rayh is back
[12:13:09] <rayh> pfred1: Have you got emc running?
[12:13:27] <pfred1> rayh i had at one point can't remember why I took it off that one machine
[12:13:58] <pfred1> I checked it yesterday it's running RH 7.3 now I thought it was EMC still so paul_c told me new one's coming out
[12:13:59] <rayh> I know that. Done it many times.
[12:14:16] <pfred1> so I'm waiting on that to install it on this other machine i have
[12:14:17] <rayh> Yes and it will be great.
[12:14:37] <pfred1> I think that machine will run it well
[12:14:44] <pfred1> PIII 500
[12:15:00] <rayh> The thing I like most about it is that EMC updates will be rather easier than they are now.
[12:15:19] <pfred1> well last time i installed it I put in a CD and went
[12:15:24] <rayh> I've got BDI-Live on a 500 here and it's okay.
[12:16:03] <pfred1> I have to make a power supply somehow for my steppers and drivers
[12:16:15] <pfred1> was looking at my transformer junk pile the other nite
[12:16:53] <pfred1> that's what messed me up with my earlier work on my drivers
[12:17:01] <pfred1> the power supply I was using was dodgy
[12:17:17] <rayh> What voltage were you shooting for?
[12:17:17] <pfred1> I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out what was wrong!
[12:17:26] <pfred1> 24
[12:17:47] <paul_c> rayh: That little hack is screwing things up - Need to rethink the conversion...
[12:17:57] <pfred1> I had a protoboarded circuit running great
[12:18:10] <rayh> I'll keep going on the tickle code here. Nearly got it.
[12:18:14] <pfred1> then i made another board on phenolic just wired it up and it didn't work
[12:18:42] <pfred1> so I figured i messed something up turns out that power supply couldn't deliver the amperage to run the 2 circuits
[12:19:00] <rayh> So the voltage dropped off.
[12:19:03] <paul_c> reverted the change - You might want to update...
[12:19:05] <pfred1> when it really shouild have been able too it has a weak transformer in it though
[12:19:14] <rayh> paul_c: k
[12:19:35] <pfred1> well hmmm I didn't even notice it at the time just didn't occur to me but later i used same power supply to try to drive an audio amplifier
[12:20:01] <pfred1> and when that didn't work i did voltage check and the thing was like totally dead trying to deliver some power to that amp
[12:20:08] <pfred1> it was strange
[12:20:32] <pfred1> up to like an amp it has no problems after that it has problems
[12:20:47] <pfred1> but it should have been capable of delivering 5 amps
[12:22:33] <rayh> I built a Gecko supply, 85 volt from a 240 to 120 control transformer. Run 120 in and get 85 after the rectifiers
[12:22:40] <pfred1> once i get that sorted out and retest everything and finalize my drivers I'll be back on track
[12:22:56] <rayh> I could draw 40 amps if I could find that many Gecko amps and motors.
[12:23:00] <jmkasunich> rayh: I thought geckos were rated at 80V max? you like to live dangerously?
[12:23:19] <pfred1> yeah i didn't go the gecko route I made my own drivers was a bit of a pain
[12:23:21] <rayh> Marris said he tests them to 100.
[12:23:43] <jmkasunich> 5KVA transformer? heavy power supply
[12:23:48] <pfred1> but I like to do electronics
[12:24:04] <rayh> Had it laying around from one of the Hardinge lathes.
[12:24:32] <pfred1> my drivers cost like $13 to build :)
[12:24:47] <rayh> If a guy could get one of these stepdown transformers with the +- 15% taps it would work fantastic.
[12:25:08] <rayh> pfred1: What are you using for the drive components.
[12:25:14] <pfred1> eventually when i get it all done and tested I'll put pdf on my server
[12:25:28] <pfred1> allegro PWM SIPs
[12:25:38] <pfred1> ah 7024s I think they are?
[12:25:38] <rayh> Okay.
[12:25:51] <pfred1> I had to make the logic to make the steps
[12:26:02] <pfred1> used like 2 74 series chips to do that
[12:26:11] <pfred1> common ones
[12:26:15] <danfalck> rayh: saw the add for Smithy CNC in HSM today.
[12:26:33] <rayh> Sherline uses the 7044 unipolar chip
[12:26:39] <pfred1> but i figure I will fool with that more in the future
[12:26:54] <pfred1> mine's unipolar because motors i have are unis
[12:26:54] <rayh> They use a pic to produce the microstepping.
[12:27:05] <pfred1> pic I'mn old skewl
[12:27:13] <pfred1> I do it with off the shelf logic
[12:27:27] <pfred1> for cheap free!
[12:27:37] <rayh> danfalck: Kerry said it was coming. That and 100k catalogs.
[12:27:45] <pfred1> I got scope traces on my server someplace
[12:27:58] <pfred1> want to see?
[12:28:19] <rayh> You bet. post the link.
[12:28:25] <pfred1> yeah give me few to find
[12:29:03] <rayh> * rayh SWIMBO just said let's go eat. Catch you guys later.
[12:29:54] <paul_c> darn - I wanted to ask Ray a couple more questions..
[12:30:02] <pfred1> he'll be back
[12:31:42] <pfred1> ah my stepper pulse schematic
[12:39:03] <paul_c> Don't try this at home:
[12:39:05] <paul_c> _(){_&_}_
[12:39:20] <jmkasunich> ?
[12:39:42] <paul_c> cut'n'paste it to an xterm...
[12:39:55] <paul_c> It's called a fork bomb.
[12:40:11] <paul_c> :(){ :|:&};:
[12:40:16] <paul_c> is another one.
[12:40:40] <pfred1> and here i thought it was asci porn
[12:40:44] <jmkasunich> something like while true, start a background process?
[12:40:51] <paul_c> yup
[12:41:24] <paul_c> and keep going till the processor gets overloaded.
[12:43:51] <paul_c> I'll catch Ray tomorrow sometime.
[12:44:10] <paul_c> Goodnight all.
[12:44:14] <pfred1> nite
[12:44:17] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[20:27:10] <alex_joni3> alex_joni3 is now known as alex_joni
[20:45:09] <alex_joni> hello paul_c
[20:46:53] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is running emc2 on ssh with X-forwarding to a M$ with Cygwin ...
[20:49:33] <paul_c> Same trick that danfalck used to get EMC "running" on a Mac
[20:49:51] <alex_joni> cygwin ?
[20:49:59] <alex_joni> or ssh with X-forwarding?
[20:51:32] <alex_joni> anyways.. its great
[20:51:46] <alex_joni> now I can test stuff at work too... only ssh here ;)
[21:08:53] <alex_joni> what have you been doing? ... I missed some stuff in the weekend (problems with my internet connection :()
[21:14:38] <paul_c> Been waiting for some files to download before I can start on the next stage of BDI.
[21:16:26] <alex_joni> I see...
[21:16:41] <alex_joni> seen some deb stuff submitted by you....
[21:17:02] <alex_joni> * alex_joni knows nothing about deb ... :(
[21:19:00] <paul_c> It isn't too bad for simple package builds.
[21:19:20] <paul_c> No harder than RPM.spec files
[21:22:16] <alex_joni> * alex_joni knows nothing about RPM.spec either ;)
[21:22:35] <alex_joni> don't think I really wanna go there...
[21:22:38] <alex_joni> anyways...
[21:22:45] <alex_joni> I sent an e-mail to zwisk
[21:23:17] <alex_joni> and he replied...
[21:30:55] <paul_c> * paul_c was on the phone...
[21:31:30] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders why cvs up doesn't checkout new directories created...
[21:31:56] <paul_c> cvs up -dP
[21:32:17] <paul_c> -d checks out any new directories
[21:32:33] <paul_c> and -P prunes out any empty ones.
[21:32:40] <alex_joni> I see... thanks again ;)
[21:33:30] <alex_joni> what are the prereq. for building a deb / rpm package...
[21:33:37] <alex_joni> is there work needed on autoconf ?
[21:35:24] <paul_c> Hmmm.. Hadn't included any build dependencies in the debian rules...
[21:35:46] <alex_joni> as I see it...
[21:35:57] <alex_joni> cvs up - check out the latest CVS
[21:36:11] <alex_joni> ./configure (on cvs from the latest condigure.in)
[21:36:11] <paul_c> up = Update
[21:36:18] <alex_joni> update ;)
[21:36:20] <alex_joni> make
[21:36:33] <alex_joni> at this point we should have a working emc2
[21:36:44] <alex_joni> then... make install ?
[21:37:06] <alex_joni> or make DESTDIR=/foo install (for package creation?)
[21:37:24] <paul_c> is DESTDIR in Makefile.inc ?
[21:37:29] <alex_joni> no
[21:37:33] <alex_joni> in Makefile (all over...)
[21:37:41] <paul_c> <Gulp>
[21:37:48] <alex_joni> that's what I said...
[21:37:57] <alex_joni> and TESTDIR too...
[21:38:39] <alex_joni> something like: install -d $(DESTDIR)$(TESTDIR)$(mandir)/man1
[21:39:01] <alex_joni> where $(mandir) includes ${prefix}
[21:39:17] <alex_joni> so usually ${mandir} = /usr/local/man
[21:39:51] <paul_c> I think I see what zwisk was aiming for
[21:40:26] <paul_c> TESTDIR=pwd
[21:41:19] <paul_c> so the "make install" would use the top level emc2 dir as the base for the install.
[21:42:15] <paul_c> Might have made more sense to just use DESTDIR
[21:42:37] <paul_c> and pass it as a flag at make time
[21:42:46] <alex_joni> yes, but...
[21:42:59] <alex_joni> I think it would be more ok if emc2 would run-in-place
[21:43:09] <alex_joni> and the files don't get modified by make install
[21:43:48] <alex_joni> but that's only acceptable if we don't support customizing every dir
[21:43:55] <alex_joni> bindir, mandir, libdir, etc.
[21:44:55] <alex_joni> these all can be specified during ./configure --with-bindir=/usr/bin --libdir=/usr/local/lib --foodir=/opt/whatever
[21:45:18] <paul_c> From a package & distro maintainer's point of view, I couldn't give a .... about running in place as long as the final package works after installing.
[21:45:36] <alex_joni> and if something like this _IS_ supported, there is no other possibility than altering the scripts during install (to absolute dirs, not relative)
[21:45:58] <paul_c> From a developing & testing point of view, run-in-place is good.
[21:47:22] <paul_c> Rather than messing about with modifying scripts pre/post install....
[21:47:39] <paul_c> Why not have two run scripts ?
[21:48:11] <paul_c> One for post-install, and another for pre-install ?
[21:53:08] <alex_joni> hmm... emc.run ?
[21:53:13] <alex_joni> and emc.run.install ?
[21:53:42] <alex_joni> how do you feel about creating emc.run by ./configure?
[21:53:52] <alex_joni> with the proper values included?
[21:53:55] <paul_c> emc.run & test.run ?
[21:54:08] <alex_joni> ok with me...
[21:55:02] <alex_joni> so... test.run stays as it is now (emc.run)
[21:55:13] <alex_joni> and a new emc.run gets created by ./configure ?
[21:56:10] <alex_joni> there is another issue... regarding emc.ini
[21:56:22] <paul_c> Hmmm... Let me think about what really needs to happen.
[21:56:30] <alex_joni> there are values inside that get read by programs...
[21:56:41] <alex_joni> e.g. NML_FILE=configs/emc.nml
[21:57:00] <alex_joni> when we install... there is no configs/emc.nml
[21:57:58] <alex_joni> zwisk did like this: parse emc.ini during install, and change config/emc.nml to the absolute path
[21:58:25] <paul_c> One reason for suggesting a test.run - It wouldn't parse for nml files
[21:58:40] <alex_joni> I did it like this: change emc.ini to only have NML_FILE=emc.nml, then from emc.run cd to the config dir, and run from there
[21:59:01] <paul_c> ini files should NOT be altered pre & post install
[21:59:06] <alex_joni> like this I could run emc.run from installed, from local, from anywhere
[21:59:42] <alex_joni> ok.. then we agree config/emc.nml is not ok in the ini file...?
[22:01:14] <alex_joni> s/config/configs/
[22:01:26] <paul_c> It should be a relative path, yes - Not a hard coded full path inserted by configure or make.
[22:01:44] <alex_joni> I don't think relative path is ok
[22:02:06] <alex_joni> right now the relative path is configs/emc.smthg
[22:02:16] <alex_joni> but after install there is no configs dir
[22:02:27] <paul_c> says who ?
[22:02:37] <alex_joni> install.map ?
[22:02:55] <paul_c> install.map is only for discussion
[22:03:02] <alex_joni> we never talked about configs... only etc
[22:03:16] <alex_joni> but the question arrives... relative to who ?
[22:03:18] <paul_c> Did you see may alternative suggestion to emc-dev ?
[22:04:29] <alex_joni> not really...
[22:05:00] <alex_joni> ok... so the ini file should be relative to emc.run (right?
[22:05:22] <alex_joni> but if emc.run is installed in /usr/bin and the configs go to /usr/local/share/emc2/configs (or etc )
[22:07:59] <paul_c> in emc.run - prefix=pwd ; configs=pwd/../share/emc2/config
[22:09:41] <alex_joni> so in order for minimill to find nml and var files it needs to run from configs/..
[22:10:02] <alex_joni> pwd/../share/emc2/
[22:10:16] <alex_joni> don't really like this...
[22:10:31] <alex_joni> is there a reason from running from the configs dir?
[22:10:41] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wobbles...
[22:12:15] <paul_c> No, it is only the path to the configs - Not the run dir.
[22:16:38] <paul_c> * paul_c has to go out for a bit...
[22:17:08] <paul_c> * paul_c is away: I may be gone some time.
[22:18:14] <alex_joni> paul_c: say when back.. so we can continue the debate ;)
[23:49:55] <an0n_> an0n_ is now known as an0n