#emc | Logs for 2004-11-06

[00:25:54] <alex_joni> just say when
[00:25:58] <alex_joni> hey cradek...
[00:26:00] <cradek> hello
[00:26:07] <cradek> darn power outage last night
[00:26:15] <alex_joni> guess you've seen the info from paul... right?
[00:26:24] <cradek> yeah
[00:26:39] <cradek> I don't understand why it can't go into the emc2 tree, even not being gpl
[00:26:44] <cradek> it's a separate program
[00:26:55] <alex_joni> well.. I think emc2 should be released under GPL
[00:27:03] <cradek> so the license isn't contagious
[00:27:04] <alex_joni> so everything inside it should be GPL
[00:27:33] <alex_joni> we could set up a diff. page or smthg for emcplot3d + makefile in order to be used for emc2
[00:27:33] <cradek> ok fine, it just has to be a separate checkout then (and a separate rpm/tar)
[00:27:49] <alex_joni> but I don't know if there's the need...
[00:27:54] <alex_joni> maybe rewrite it :-?
[00:28:41] <cradek> unfortunately I think I'm too familiar with it to write something with nothing in common.
[00:28:52] <cradek> it would be really hard.
[00:29:09] <cradek> but anyway, there's no reason why it can't be a separate rpm
[00:29:25] <cradek> (at least as a standalone viewer)
[00:29:29] <cradek> I could even build it today.
[00:30:09] <paul_c> * paul_c is back
[00:31:03] <cradek> paul_c: did you ask what the license is for commercial use? It is implied it is `non-free' but that's meaningless
[00:31:18] <alex_joni> cradek: how about a sim.run & emcplot3d package?
[00:31:39] <paul_c> I don't have a problem with anyone making a seperate package for emcplot3d
[00:34:22] <alex_joni> paul_c: I sent an e-mail to zwisk.. asking how work should go on with emc2-autoconf
[00:34:41] <paul_c> OK
[00:35:16] <paul_c> I woud suggest you two talk to each other and work hand in hand
[00:35:40] <paul_c> and if there are any difficulties, I can mediate.
[00:36:34] <paul_c> But in some areas, there is a huge gulf in my visions fro emc2 and those of jmk.
[00:41:52] <alex_joni> I see...
[00:42:21] <alex_joni> don't know if it's far fetched... but there are a lot of issues that could be handled by the board... or not?
[00:43:21] <paul_c> That's what the board is supposed to be for...
[00:44:32] <alex_joni> yup...
[00:44:50] <alex_joni> didn't seem to see the board say anything in that argument with ebo lately
[00:45:11] <alex_joni> cradek: need help on emcplot3d?
[00:45:41] <alex_joni> on standard install locations neither...
[00:45:59] <cradek> alex_joni: I'm not working on it right now, I'm happy with it
[00:46:24] <cradek> I made a pcb last night and watched it on the live plot - very neat
[00:47:02] <alex_joni> very neat indeed...
[00:47:41] <alex_joni> * alex_joni didn't get the chance to access his devel box at home yet... but will with the first occasion...
[00:50:14] <alex_joni> cradek: how are your pcb-s?
[00:50:23] <alex_joni> I mean what precision do you get?
[00:51:26] <cradek> I cut approximately 10 mil separations
[00:51:37] <cradek> I can easily do 8 mil traces with 10 mil separation
[00:51:53] <cradek> with a new tool, I can probably do 8/8
[00:51:54] <alex_joni> so 8 mil is minimum path-size?
[00:52:08] <cradek> I don't know, I've never tried to go smaller
[00:52:16] <alex_joni> I see...
[00:52:29] <cradek> I have a spring loaded zero-backlash setup that works superbly
[00:52:37] <cradek> so I could probably cut much smaller.
[00:52:50] <alex_joni> smd-pcb's ?
[00:52:59] <cradek> sure, I've done plenty of smd
[00:53:05] <alex_joni> nice...
[00:53:15] <cradek> I can put traces between SOT-23 and 0805 pads
[00:53:37] <cradek> doubt I could put them between 0603 pads, but mayyybe
[00:53:53] <cradek> I hand-solder the boards so it would be pretty tough.
[00:54:27] <alex_joni> how about LQFP ? could you mill one of those?
[00:55:42] <cradek> I don't know, what trace width and separation does it require?
[00:56:00] <cradek> I think it could be done with 8/8 but that's from memory and might be wrong
[00:56:14] <alex_joni> http://www.national.com/packaging/folders/veh64a.html
[00:58:07] <cradek> the leads are 9 mil wide and almost 20 mil apart, so yes I could do it pretty easily.
[01:03:11] <alex_joni> nice ;)
[01:03:29] <alex_joni> now I'm really impressed... I know how hard it's to solder these ...
[01:11:15] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is listening to Duke Ellington...
[01:19:40] <alex_joni> well guys.. I'm out of here...
[01:20:08] <alex_joni> catch you later...
[01:20:10] <alex_joni> bye
[03:06:58] <danfalck> * danfalck is back (gone 60:20:43)
[03:07:21] <danfalck> hello
[03:10:11] <paul_c> Hi Dan
[03:10:16] <danfalck> hi paul
[03:10:40] <danfalck> how's it going today?
[03:11:01] <paul_c> * paul_c has a new tack for dealing with cold call telesales...
[03:11:09] <danfalck> oh?
[03:11:42] <paul_c> Insist on a credit card number and inform them it will cost $75 per hour per call.
[03:12:54] <paul_c> they soon give up ;)
[03:12:55] <danfalck> have you gained any revenue yet?
[03:13:11] <paul_c> nope - But it is good fun...
[03:13:22] <danfalck> I sometimes let them talk to my youngest child
[03:13:49] <paul_c> * paul_c doesn't have any siblings...
[03:14:10] <danfalck> My father in law likes to string them along and waste their time
[03:14:44] <danfalck> He had a person from a lawn care company scratching their head about how to take care
[03:14:54] <danfalck> of a fake lawn on a small patio
[03:15:39] <danfalck> I have a question about the plot3d program that cradek was talking about
[03:15:47] <paul_c> Shoot
[03:15:49] <danfalck> do you have it running?
[03:16:25] <paul_c> Not on this box.
[03:16:32] <danfalck> What I mean is- can someone provide a screenshot for the linuxcnc.org website?
[03:16:33] <cradek> I'm here too
[03:16:38] <danfalck> Hi
[03:16:40] <cradek> hello
[03:16:51] <cradek> sure, I will do it right now
[03:16:58] <cradek> how about the 3d penguin?
[03:17:08] <danfalck> that would be good
[03:17:17] <cradek> what size do you want it?
[03:17:51] <danfalck> oh any size would be ok. We can always crop it later.
[03:17:57] <cradek> no, it would be better not to
[03:18:03] <cradek> how about 640x480
[03:18:06] <danfalck> ok
[03:18:16] <cradek> is the web site geared to 800 wide?
[03:18:24] <danfalck> I should have said scale instead of crop
[03:18:31] <danfalck> I'm not sure, but think so.
[03:18:35] <cradek> if you scale it it will look like hell
[03:18:42] <cradek> it has text and fine lines
[03:18:54] <danfalck> ok
[03:19:17] <cradek> png?
[03:19:35] <danfalck> that would be ok.
[03:20:34] <danfalck> ok, I think I have it. Have to look in preferences to see where it went....
[03:20:44] <cradek> hehe
[03:21:33] <danfalck> ok got it. Very nice!
[03:21:37] <cradek> thanks
[03:21:46] <cradek> it's nice and small at 15k
[03:21:54] <danfalck> thank you!
[03:22:10] <danfalck> I will work with Steve to put it up.
[03:22:49] <cradek> that's great, thanks
[03:23:47] <danfalck> do you have any other cool screen shots? Custom EMC gui ?
[03:24:08] <cradek> I added some features to xemc, but that's all
[03:24:20] <cradek> it's still just as ugly as ever
[03:24:49] <danfalck> are there any other features of the plot program we could show?
[03:25:06] <cradek> well it shows dwells, canned cycles, etc
[03:25:12] <cradek> I'm not sure I have a good file to use though
[03:25:32] <danfalck> how about some drill cycles?
[03:26:03] <cradek> I will send you a shot of one of my pcb nc files
[03:26:12] <danfalck> ok
[03:27:40] <danfalck> very cool
[03:27:53] <cradek> this shows rapid moves (dashed), regular cuts, dwells (white X), drill cycles (pink X)
[03:28:32] <danfalck> ok. I like it!
[03:28:52] <danfalck> wow. I could never get the plot3d program to run.
[03:29:03] <cradek> I've done a lot of work updating it
[03:29:19] <cradek> I think it had suffered from "bit rot"
[03:29:26] <danfalck> did it work at all before you got into it?
[03:29:34] <cradek> well, it wouldn't build
[03:29:43] <cradek> it had several bad bugs
[03:30:00] <cradek> the general idea was there though. I just polished it.
[03:30:18] <cradek> you can use it as a live plotter too - shows the tool as it goes
[03:30:23] <danfalck> So does it run on it's own or does emc have to feed it?
[03:30:35] <cradek> it can run on its own or as a live plotter
[03:30:41] <danfalck> ok
[03:30:51] <cradek> (or both - display the file, and then it draws over the white lines with blue as they are cut)
[03:31:01] <cradek> when everything is blue, it's done
[03:31:11] <cradek> (I just fixed that yesterday)
[03:31:57] <danfalck> what are you using EMC for(if you don't mind me asking)?
[03:32:07] <cradek> running a small stepper mill
[03:32:13] <cradek> I use it mostly for circuit boards
[03:32:27] <cradek> it's not a strong enough machine to cut much metal.
[03:32:34] <danfalck> do you have any pics or your setup?
[03:32:36] <cradek> but it works just super for pcb.
[03:32:50] <cradek> no, it's just a modified MaxNC machine
[03:33:08] <cradek> I built an interface to adapt it to step/dir to use emc
[03:33:22] <danfalck> I used to use the MaxNC software a long time ago
[03:33:28] <danfalck> It was buggy then..
[03:33:31] <cradek> their software is terrible
[03:33:47] <danfalck> their software is what got me into emc
[03:34:02] <danfalck> I was searching for something that had source code
[03:34:05] <cradek> it does a full stop at every vertex, so if you have a circle made of small segments, it crawls
[03:34:14] <danfalck> because of the terrible bugs
[03:34:36] <cradek> yeah, I love open source and I'll deal with a lot of extra trouble to use it, because I can make it do what I want
[03:34:52] <danfalck> I used to use Dancam, then Dan Hudgins got sick and stopped working on the software for a while
[03:35:01] <danfalck> so I was stuck
[03:35:22] <cradek> is dancam a cad editor or a machine controller?
[03:35:27] <danfalck> Jon Elson mentioned that he was using EMC and described it on usenet
[03:35:57] <danfalck> dancad is the CAD portion (CAM software really) Dancam is the step/dir driverr
[03:36:09] <cradek> I see
[03:36:17] <danfalck> it was nice for the mid 90's
[03:36:17] <cradek> not sure I've heard of it
[03:36:35] <cradek> I don't have much money to spend on software
[03:36:45] <danfalck> don't worry. It's still ollld DOS software that's more akin to 1980s
[03:37:47] <danfalck> I used to do a lot of engraving for money. the software thing was a real pain
[03:38:12] <danfalck> getting stuff for a large sum of money that didn't do what it was supposed to do.
[03:38:24] <cradek> ugh
[03:38:32] <cradek> yeah I would rather write it than buy it
[03:38:42] <cradek> then it's my own fault and I'm the best one to fix it
[03:38:55] <danfalck> that's cool
[03:39:18] <danfalck> I'm impressed with all of you guys who are coders.
[03:39:53] <cradek> and I'm impressed by real machinists, which I'm not
[03:40:31] <cradek> I would like to get a nice full sized cnc mill, but there's no cash available for that!
[03:40:59] <danfalck> I don't have the room for one. I have a mill/drill
[03:41:17] <danfalck> a 10" lathe
[03:41:18] <cradek> those look like a great idea
[03:41:28] <danfalck> and too much other stuff
[03:41:36] <cradek> 10" swing or 10" long?
[03:41:42] <cradek> I have one about 10" long (sherline)
[03:41:47] <danfalck> 10" swing EMCO
[03:41:51] <cradek> ah
[03:41:59] <danfalck> I have a sherline lathe and mill also
[03:42:01] <daryl> I'm pondering buying a house so that I have room for a mill. Bit if I buy a house, I won't have money for a mill.
[03:42:15] <danfalck> I know the feeling
[03:42:18] <cradek> I also fix old watches, etc, using the sherline stuff
[03:42:29] <danfalck> buy the house and work on the software
[03:42:57] <daryl> Heh heh.
[03:43:35] <danfalck> houses are a very good investment
[03:43:46] <cradek> and they give you lots of room to put "stuff"
[03:44:00] <cradek> I have too many hobbies to live in an apt.
[03:44:00] <daryl> * daryl already has too much "stuff"
[03:44:22] <cradek> me too me too
[03:45:10] <paul_c> * paul_c was offered a top floor apt.
[03:45:24] <daryl> Good spot for your mill. ;)
[03:45:41] <paul_c> With the toys, it would have soon been a ground floor or basement apt.
[03:46:09] <danfalck> let's see... large turning center going up the stairs...
[03:46:20] <danfalck> then down...
[03:46:39] <paul_c> ;}
[03:48:12] <danfalck> is the plot3d program GPL or just public domain?
[03:48:37] <cradek> unfortunately it's "free for non-commercial use"
[03:48:46] <danfalck> oh.
[03:48:49] <cradek> a terrible license
[03:49:01] <cradek> I guess paul talked to the author
[03:49:04] <danfalck> I wonder who thought of that? Nist?
[03:49:25] <paul_c> * paul_c sent an email to Jeff Molofee yesterday.
[03:49:33] <cradek> it would be nice if paul could talk him into making it GPL ...
[03:49:56] <danfalck> if it was funded by NIST it has to be public domain
[03:50:02] <cradek> otherwise one of us is probably going to have to rewrite it eventually
[03:50:11] <danfalck> US tax dollars pay NIST
[03:50:13] <paul_c> danfalck: Not quite...
[03:50:23] <danfalck> really?
[03:50:27] <paul_c> If NIST take a GPL or other OS package
[03:50:49] <paul_c> then they are bound by the original licence same as the rest of us.
[03:51:07] <danfalck> So it wasn't written by them from the ground up?
[03:51:39] <paul_c> No - It is based on some code originally by Molofee
[03:52:03] <danfalck> ok.
[03:53:35] <paul_c> There are other 3D plotting libs that are GPL
[03:53:51] <paul_c> Vtk springs to mind...
[03:56:38] <paul_c> Yo Ray.
[03:57:00] <danfalck> hi ray
[03:57:03] <rayh> hey. How you doin'
[03:57:27] <danfalck> Ray thanks for the Hal May contact info.
[03:57:34] <rayh> Hi Dan. What'cha doin home.
[03:57:42] <danfalck> sick day
[03:58:03] <rayh> Oh. I remember a little something about sick.
[03:59:13] <rayh> Hal is a really interesting fellow.
[04:02:54] <danfalck> I will email him today
[04:04:11] <rayh> Good.
[04:04:28] <rayh> I think there is also a French fellow up in your area as well.
[04:04:51] <danfalck> oh?
[04:05:53] <rayh> When I get a chance, I'll look for his addy.
[04:06:04] <danfalck> ok
[04:28:16] <danfalck> ray do you have any good screenshots of any new guis that you are working on?
[06:20:22] <rayh> Not right now I don't.
[06:52:15] <paul_c> Hmmmm... I wonder if an anaconda kickstart can be used to install EMC from a tarball....
[06:52:49] <daryl_v> * daryl_v has no idea.
[06:53:37] <daryl_v> * daryl_v often has no idea.
[06:53:40] <paul_c> I think the answer is yas...
[06:54:11] <paul_c> But the real question should be: Does kickstart work with the donor distro.
[06:54:52] <daryl_v> Do people usually have dedicated PC's for emc?
[06:56:18] <paul_c> 'pends on how limited their finances are...
[06:58:11] <daryl_v> I guess either way it would be nice to work with whatever distro the person happens to like. Was kind of a pointless question.
[06:58:29] <paul_c> We are converting quite a few who's prefered OS comes from some little micky mouse outfit in the state of Washington.
[06:59:31] <daryl_v> Heh heh... Yes, well, do people seriously want to run emc on that?
[07:00:05] <paul_c> There was talk a few weeks ago about compiling EMC for XP
[07:00:26] <paul_c> Count me out of that little project...
[07:00:56] <daryl_v> I'm no windows expert... but that frightens me.
[07:01:11] <daryl_v> * daryl_v reboots his windows machine more than once daily.
[07:01:50] <paul_c> * paul_c used to use a W98 box that only got rebooted once every three months.
[07:02:47] <daryl_v> To be fair, much of the problem is probably third-party drivers.
[07:03:58] <paul_c> and users...
[07:07:53] <paul_c> so does daryl_v have EMC up and running yet ?
[07:09:06] <daryl_v> Of course. :)
[07:10:05] <daryl_v> It's running on a dying laptop which lives on the apartment floor. The GUI runs on another machine.
[08:11:29] <Pigi> Ciao all
[08:13:09] <paul_c> Not wanting to appear rude....
[08:13:16] <paul_c> Back after a reboot.
[08:48:09] <paul_c> HoHum... Guess I'm off out to buy some new hardware in the morning.
[09:11:26] <paul_c> Late shift ?
[09:11:48] <alex_joni> couldn't sleep...
[09:12:03] <alex_joni> actually I fell asleep when I got home.. and now I'm up
[09:12:14] <alex_joni> hoped I would catch zwisk around...
[09:13:04] <alex_joni> you? late shift?
[09:13:27] <paul_c> Only 11:00 here
[09:13:39] <alex_joni> that's acceptable ;)
[09:21:48] <alex_joni> any luck with the deb stuff?
[09:22:59] <paul_c> nope - Been banging my head over another problem...
[09:23:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if he can help...
[09:23:54] <paul_c> I have a short term kludge so I can put off creating a deb rule for a while...
[09:24:46] <alex_joni> * alex_joni found out what kludge means... he is now enlightened ;)
[09:28:20] <alex_joni> actually my english is not that great.. it could use some improving ...
[09:32:50] <paul_c> back in a bit..
[09:34:23] <alex_joni> ok...
[10:00:23] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if paul_c knows anything about kilts...
[10:01:08] <paul_c> skirts worn by beefy Scotsmen
[10:01:36] <paul_c> (just don't call them skirt in front of them !)
[10:02:13] <alex_joni> lol...
[10:02:21] <alex_joni> I am thinking about getting one ;)
[10:02:28] <alex_joni> just for the fun of it...
[10:03:15] <alex_joni> I like the knifes though.. (sgian dubh or what they're called...)
[10:03:53] <alex_joni> anyways... something more serious,
[10:04:03] <alex_joni> can you point me to some info regarding licences?
[10:04:22] <alex_joni> GPL versus free software
[10:04:25] <paul_c> Do you know which tartan you are eligable to wear ?
[10:05:03] <alex_joni> I have absolutely no idea
[10:05:05] <alex_joni> :D
[10:05:32] <paul_c> You'll need to find out which clan you belong to
[10:05:46] <alex_joni> lol.. right ;)
[10:05:51] <paul_c> Can't be wearing any old tartan...
[10:05:52] <alex_joni> is emc ok?
[10:06:25] <paul_c> Seriously - Each clan has it's own tartan
[10:07:34] <alex_joni> I know that... but obviously I don't belong to any clan...
[10:08:20] <les> hey paul
[10:09:03] <danfalck> les: Hi
[10:09:19] <les> had some calls from Chicago...doing a sell job to get a patron to finance RTLinux factory automation
[10:09:23] <les> hi dan
[10:09:57] <paul_c> http://www.house-of-tartan.scotland.net/story/story.htm
[10:10:10] <alex_joni> paul_c: thx
[10:14:42] <paul_c> Enter "1063 Johnstone" in the Tartan Name box @ http://www.house-of-tartan.scotland.net/house/tfinder.htm
[10:16:15] <alex_joni> pretty old ;)
[10:17:07] <alex_joni> there is an Alexander family tartan :D
[10:19:15] <alex_joni> guess i'll go with what I can find...
[10:19:29] <alex_joni> custom stuff is expensive :D
[10:19:43] <alex_joni> I'd rather waste that money on HW
[10:21:36] <alex_joni> I just remembered... BDI-TNG needs some fix on autoconf stuff
[10:26:40] <alex_joni> paul_c: any thoughts on the version.h issue?
[10:27:01] <alex_joni> I was thinking to do it like for RT-dir
[10:27:41] <alex_joni> if (after the RT stuff is done successfully) KERNELDIR is unknown, then look for a kernel source dir
[10:27:52] <paul_c> The original grep'n'cut method worked fine.
[10:28:03] <alex_joni> * alex_joni s talking about ./configure (just in case anybody wonders...)
[10:28:13] <alex_joni> well.. it did... till to a point
[10:28:29] <alex_joni> KERNELDIR is now extracted from realtime-config
[10:28:42] <alex_joni> which outputs Kernel Source dir not configured...
[10:29:27] <alex_joni> so KERNELDIR gets not set
[10:29:48] <alex_joni> and after that test go on on 'pwd'/include/linux/version.h
[10:35:08] <paul_c> Could do a test to see if configure is being run on a BDI-TNG box...
[10:38:20] <alex_joni> that's what I was actually asking for...
[10:38:42] <alex_joni> given the fact that this is a TNG specific problem, and that there are a lot of TNG boxes...
[10:38:51] <alex_joni> can it be a specific TNG test?
[10:40:49] <paul_c> cat /etc/redhat-release | head -n 1
[10:41:15] <paul_c> "BDI-TNG Linux release 7.2 (Minbar)"
[10:41:31] <alex_joni> only if KERNELDIR is void...
[10:45:58] <paul_c> * paul_c tries to checkout emc2
[10:50:43] <alex_joni> could you commit the latest install.map ?
[10:51:55] <paul_c> Posted to the list for open discussion.
[10:52:26] <alex_joni> well.. seen no discussion after that ;)
[10:53:18] <paul_c> Go ahead and repond to the list - Get one going.
[10:54:03] <alex_joni> I will.. tomorrow ... when I'm a little more awake ;)
[10:54:11] <alex_joni> right now I'm adding the TNG test..
[10:54:46] <alex_joni> and helping a friend in Canada with some robot programming ;)
[10:56:41] <alex_joni> who needs KERNEL_VERS anyways?
[10:57:22] <alex_joni> make that kernelvers...
[10:58:21] <alex_joni> can't see anyone besides Makefile.inc (and src/config.h) to contain that...
[11:00:33] <alex_joni> oh.. silly me... MODULE_DIR does
[11:02:02] <paul_c> if RTAI-VER = 24.1.*
[11:02:18] <paul_c> find -name .buildvars
[11:02:51] <paul_c> Hmmm nope - That won't work straight off
[11:03:31] <alex_joni> I was looking at the rtai configure.in
[11:04:04] <alex_joni> they are looking for .config inside the source dir
[11:04:07] <paul_c> Hang on... We have already found realtime-config, so we know that we are dealing with rtai-24.1.xx
[11:04:14] <alex_joni> yes...
[11:07:18] <alex_joni> seems that realtime-config looks for /usr/src/linux
[11:07:22] <alex_joni> by default
[11:07:45] <alex_joni> and if it doesn't find it it says Kernel source tree not configured...
[11:09:11] <alex_joni> and it doesn't output CFLAGS, PREFIX; etc
[11:10:45] <paul_c> It is checking for $LINUXDIR/.config
[11:11:03] <alex_joni> yup... and $LINUXDIR defaults to /usr/src/linux
[11:11:39] <alex_joni> don't know if the original configure --linuxdir=/usr/src/linux-foo modified any defaults
[11:13:30] <alex_joni> a simple symlink from /usr/src/linux ro /usr/src/linux-foo would do the trick...
[11:14:09] <alex_joni> s/ro/to/
[11:15:11] <paul_c> When the kernel header package is installed, the symlink is created automatically.
[11:15:26] <alex_joni> so it's there...?
[11:16:23] <paul_c> Yes - But the .config is missing
[11:16:37] <alex_joni> I see now...
[11:16:37] <paul_c> so realtime-config fails
[11:16:44] <alex_joni> is it patched at least?
[11:17:18] <paul_c> TNG is patched, compiled, and running.
[11:17:58] <paul_c> All the info we need is in /usr/src/rtai-24.1.10/.buildvars
[11:18:09] <alex_joni> ok.. could you send me one?
[11:18:15] <alex_joni> to know what to grep?
[11:18:42] <alex_joni> maybe /msg me with it
[11:20:41] <paul_c> DCC ?
[11:21:16] <alex_joni> pls send again
[11:21:22] <alex_joni> I had a filter installed
[11:25:22] <alex_joni> got it
[11:30:23] <paul_c> If redhat-release is grepped for BDI-TNG, then CC should default to egcs
[11:30:49] <alex_joni> ok
[11:31:50] <paul_c> and perhaps pop up a suggestion at the end to upgrade to BDI-3.xx or Live
[11:33:19] <alex_joni> is there a BDI-3.xx?
[11:33:31] <alex_joni> or visit www.linuxcnc.org for a newer version ?
[11:33:33] <paul_c> Not yet
[11:34:49] <paul_c> Hmmm... I'll have a little think about the exact wording
[11:35:17] <paul_c> Don't want people looking for an updated TNG release.
[11:36:18] <alex_joni> TVNG ;)
[11:36:50] <paul_c> * paul_c reaches for a wet kipper
[11:37:55] <alex_joni> kipper?
[11:38:28] <paul_c> A smoked flat fish
[11:38:44] <alex_joni> ohh... I thought it had something to do with TVNG ;)
[11:39:22] <paul_c> It's an alternative to the stun gun or a lart stick.
[11:40:22] <alex_joni> lol
[11:40:48] <paul_c> It's a Monty Python type of gag....
[11:40:54] <alex_joni> * alex_joni prefers a sock with sand in it
[11:41:53] <paul_c> about a subtle as a brick.
[11:42:51] <paul_c> Time for bed - See you all later.
[12:18:02] <CIA-9> 03alex_joni 07auto_configure_0_1 * 10emc2/ (configure.in configure):
[12:18:02] <CIA-9> added a custom hack for BDI-TNG. On BDI-TNG the realtime-config script thinks
[12:18:02] <CIA-9> that the kernel source tree is not configured and doesn't want to run. The hack
[12:18:02] <CIA-9> consists in identifying BGI-TNG, and parsing /usr/src/rtai-24.1.10/.buildvars
[12:22:28] <alex_joni> I'm gone too... dawn is near ;)
[15:22:49] <dmwaters> {global notice} Hi all! We're having problems with one of our major european hubs, I'm attempting to work around the problem. I appologize for the problems, and thank you for using freenode!
[20:58:27] <pfred1> paul_c hmm, an imposter!
[21:00:25] <paul_c> nope - Just another lurker ;-/
[21:01:04] <pfred1> yeah just what this channel needs i logged in yesterday and the first thing I saw in it was what I said
[21:02:28] <pfred1> oh no I didn't use my middle initial in my information so whois wouldn't explain the imposter thing!
[21:03:11] <paul_c> You weren't trying to use my nick to log in ??
[21:03:22] <pfred1> no I'm registered
[21:04:58] <pfred1> not that i like IRC services I held out as long as I could untol #linux went +m on unregistered users I used this network when it was called opensource or something
[21:05:46] <paul_c> Ah... So you are an experienced user..
[21:06:14] <pfred1> I don't know if I'd go quite that far but maybe
[21:06:49] <pfred1> I haven't done this channel til I read about it on a webpage looking at EMC isos
[21:07:23] <paul_c> which page was that ?
[21:07:48] <pfred1> lets see if mozilla can stymie me again looking in hostory for page sec
[21:08:12] <pfred1> http://www.linuxcnc.org/bdi/
[21:08:17] <pfred1> ah this time it had it!
[21:08:47] <pfred1> Latest News... The irc channel is picking up. To join in on live discussions and debates, go to irc.freenode.net and join #emc
[21:09:09] <pfred1> if this is picking up this chan must have used to have sucked data off PCs whenever people logged in previously
[21:09:12] <paul_c> my little blogging space ;)
[21:09:40] <pfred1> oh that's your page?
[21:10:10] <paul_c> I'm responsible for keeping that page up to date, but I don't host it.
[21:10:28] <pfred1> well if you write it it's your page don't matter who serves it really
[21:11:00] <pfred1> from here on in please refer to it as "my page" so as not to confuse me anymore than I am naturally OK?
[21:11:11] <paul_c> The whole web site is a joint effort...
[21:11:29] <pfred1> ah so you do that page
[21:11:46] <pfred1> yeah EMC moves slowly which is good makes it easier for me to keep up with it
[21:12:12] <paul_c> Gradual evolution.
[21:12:27] <pfred1> I still don't have my machine done but I'll use the distro on new machine I'm setting up
[21:12:40] <pfred1> know what's got me now?
[21:12:45] <pfred1> it's so stupid too!
[21:12:58] <pfred1> where the heck am I going to get 10 amps of regulated power from?
[21:13:15] <pfred1> something I didn't think of at the outset but here i am
[21:13:16] <paul_c> for steppers ?
[21:13:32] <pfred1> yeah I could make each supply seperate but I figure that's inelegant solution
[21:13:58] <paul_c> How big are the steppers & what drives are you using ?
[21:14:07] <pfred1> but I still may go with it because each axis really only needs like 2 amps which is a lot easier to deal with
[21:14:29] <pfred1> steppers are like 225 oz vextas and the drives I made
[21:14:39] <pfred1> based on allegro chips
[21:14:44] <paul_c> The motors rated at 2A @ 3.2V ?
[21:15:31] <pfred1> not so sure I've metered them drawing an amp and figure maybe they could draw more higher voltage or doing somehting with the chopping frequency
[21:16:07] <pfred1> it's something i haven't fully explored yet being as I don't have a power supply really totally up for it yet
[21:16:10] <paul_c> For chopper drives, calculate the V*I per axis
[21:16:38] <paul_c> (e.g. 6.4W)
[21:16:40] <pfred1> that and no load on the motors does the wattage increase as you load them?
[21:16:59] <pfred1> it would stand to reason more work more power
[21:17:22] <pfred1> until the smoke starts pouring out!
[21:17:26] <paul_c> The motor ratings are usually the max
[21:17:48] <pfred1> yeah so far all I done is run these things on a benchtop not in machine
[21:18:03] <paul_c> For a four axis system, I'd reckon 25.6W at the most
[21:18:09] <pfred1> so I figure a little headroom wouldn't kill me as far as ampacity delivery
[21:18:27] <pfred1> so 10 amps is a nice round figure to work with but I could get away with say 6
[21:18:42] <pfred1> 2 amps an axis 3 axis
[21:18:43] <paul_c> a 30V 1A supply would probably be big enough.
[21:18:55] <pfred1> tho maybe I'd like to drive the bottom with 2 motors?
[21:19:04] <pfred1> I made a gantry type table
[21:19:44] <pfred1> hmm 30V 1 amp I could make that with an LM 317T couldn't I?
[21:19:49] <paul_c> Take a look at the white papers on the Gecko web site
[21:19:53] <pfred1> they supposedly do up to 1.5 amps
[21:20:03] <paul_c> Marris has some notes about PSU ratings
[21:20:23] <paul_c> and it doesn't need to be regulated
[21:20:42] <pfred1> yeah my drivers are basically regulators
[21:20:42] <paul_c> In fact, an unregulated supply may well be better...
[21:21:35] <pfred1> yeah heck I should just slap this thing together with a beefy transformer and see what happens
[21:22:03] <pfred1> if it blows up well that's just the excitement factor in the hobby right?
[21:22:18] <pfred1> nothing thrills me more than a circuit going down in flames!
[21:23:00] <paul_c> 100VA 18V transformer would probably be big enough.
[21:23:28] <pfred1> yeah I'd have to refer to my notes to see what I was using was so long ago last I worked on this project
[21:23:45] <pfred1> I still want to finish it someday
[21:24:03] <paul_c> * paul_c has plenty of projects like that
[21:24:28] <pfred1> but I always thought the PC I was planning on using was a little underpowered for the task from what I'd read so I just picked up a new junker and I'm building it up
[21:24:46] <pfred1> I had a P233 now i have a PII450
[21:24:55] <pfred1> the stuff people throw away!
[21:25:12] <pfred1> tho to be honest this PC didn't just boot up when i picked it up was a little whacky
[21:25:50] <pfred1> man just a 100VA 18 volt you say?
[21:25:55] <pfred1> man that's nothing!
[21:26:10] <pfred1> I use bigger stuff in amps i build!
[21:26:20] <pfred1> I got that sort of thing laying around
[21:26:45] <pfred1> here i was planning on hand rewinding this transformer i pulled out of a microwave somehow
[21:27:04] <pfred1> that you could anchor a medium sized recreational boat with
[21:28:13] <paul_c> * paul_c has a 300VA 30V transformer for the G201 drives
[21:28:33] <pfred1> that's got to weigh at least 5 pounds huh?
[21:28:34] <paul_c> Way over the top for 3 steppers
[21:28:49] <pfred1> maybe more like 8?
[21:29:06] <pfred1> pick it up with 2 hands?
[21:29:15] <paul_c> one
[21:30:34] <pfred1> paul_c maybe that just means you're buff and work out?
[21:30:49] <paul_c> toroidal transformer to fit in a 2U case
[21:30:53] <pfred1> got a pic of this beast?
[21:30:58] <pfred1> oh one of those?
[21:31:07] <pfred1> one of them saucer shaped transformers
[21:31:12] <paul_c> yup
[21:31:13] <pfred1> they light for their ratings
[21:31:43] <pfred1> no i use them big old blocky types i never run into toroidals
[21:33:23] <pfred1> home stereos/power amps have some scary transformers in them to achieve their watt outputs
[21:34:04] <paul_c> * paul_c has a 3KVA transformer lined up for the other mill
[21:34:27] <pfred1> where'd you run across that?
[21:35:11] <paul_c> it was a site transformer 240V in, 110V out.
[21:35:31] <pfred1> wooo nice 2::1 reduction huh?
[21:36:01] <paul_c> and fully isolated (once the earth tap has been removed)
[21:40:20] <pfred1> paul_c what? don't go in for those hair raising experiences?
[21:41:05] <paul_c> Site transformers give a 55-0-55 output with the ceter tap bonded to earth
[21:41:13] <pfred1> or do you do it for ground hum?
[21:42:08] <paul_c> bonded for Health & Safety reasons.... Wouldn't want a brickie to get a full 110V shock...
[21:42:31] <pfred1> 110V is a tickle even for a brickie
[21:42:40] <pfred1> they only like go to the shoulder
[21:43:48] <paul_c> Once the bonding has been removed, it is just like a regular transformer...
[21:48:02] <pfred1> it's that ground that keeps us all alive
[21:48:39] <pfred1> or it'd be like thunder whenever you went to go plug something in!
[21:49:04] <paul_c> agreed - But it wants to be earthed on the 0V side, not Vout/2
[21:51:09] <pfred1> I was looking at that BDI site looking for an iso to download and one said don't run with less than 256MB RAM
[21:51:41] <paul_c> BDI-Live - Needs that much memory to boot from the CD.
[21:52:00] <pfred1> oh that was a live yeah I'm going to do regular dedicated install
[21:52:27] <paul_c> You might want to wait a few weeks then
[21:52:38] <paul_c> Working on a brand new CD
[21:52:45] <pfred1> yeah that's what it was looking like to me looked like something else was coming down the pike soon
[21:53:41] <paul_c> Got another couple of days to download packages....
[21:54:30] <paul_c> then I can start on building/testing
[21:59:46] <pfred1> yeah I'd like to bump the memory up in that system anyways I have to find the right kind
[22:00:08] <pfred1> paul_c do you think a PII450 is enough to run EMC today?
[22:01:57] <paul_c> Sure - If you want to run a GUI desktop, I'd suggest a lightweight window manager..
[22:02:09] <pfred1> yeah I usually pick windowmaker
[22:02:57] <paul_c> icewm
[22:05:46] <paul_c> Time for some lunch.
[23:00:07] <les> hello paul
[23:00:28] <pfred1> les which Paul?
[23:00:39] <les> haha
[23:01:22] <pfred1> pfred1 p=Paul
[23:01:33] <les> I see
[23:01:49] <les> thought it might be p for Proctor
[23:02:01] <pfred1> /whois pfred1
[23:02:13] <pfred1> : ircname : Paul Frederick
[23:02:18] <les> I did that....
[23:02:26] <pfred1> :) you're fast!
[23:02:41] <les> well...I did it a while ago
[23:02:55] <les> are you now running emc?
[23:03:06] <pfred1> but really it's Paul C. Frederick I guess I was lazy
[23:03:17] <pfred1> not on this system but system next to it yeah
[23:03:46] <pfred1> but I'm laying up a new system to run EMC on
[23:03:55] <pfred1> which is kinda how I ended up here
[23:03:59] <les> I run a big router with it and am getting a second vertical mil that will use it as well
[23:04:10] <les> mill
[23:04:20] <pfred1> yes i want to run a tiny router with mine eventually
[23:04:28] <pfred1> the big router I save for myself :)
[23:05:05] <les> well I have done a few...the largest 20x20 feet...the smallest 1x1 inch
[23:05:14] <pfred1> a guy I know has an old bridgeport CNC
[23:05:20] <pfred1> I wonder if he ever got it going?
[23:05:55] <les> I just got a call on a series 1 cnc in good shape
[23:05:58] <les> but
[23:06:07] <pfred1> yeah that's what i think he has
[23:06:14] <pfred1> the thing with the box hanging off the side?
[23:06:31] <les> I found that it was outside and the tarp blew off in a recent storm
[23:06:39] <les> yeah big box on the side
[23:06:58] <pfred1> well 2 one floats on this pipe then there's a cabinet for electronics?
[23:07:09] <les> anyway...the machine is now scrap iron I guess
[23:07:16] <pfred1> they're funny machine shops never know how to use them
[23:07:39] <pfred1> thing's a boat anchor anyways
[23:07:53] <les> I can do a servo emc retrofit pretty quick on one though
[23:08:16] <les> I just need one with good ballscrews
[23:09:07] <les> I find that I need multiple machines these days to be productive
[23:09:17] <pfred1> oh yeah? what you making?
[23:09:28] <les> eqch set up for particular work
[23:09:35] <les> each
[23:09:44] <pfred1> * pfred1 can parse IRC
[23:10:20] <les> well I have a woodworking business but find myself doing engineering consulting a lot
[23:10:38] <pfred1> woodworking business? like cabinetmaking?
[23:10:44] <les> I developed a car part lately
[23:10:57] <les> www.lmwatts.com
[23:12:00] <pfred1> les looking at the gallery nice stuff!
[23:12:09] <les> thanks
[23:12:27] <les> the cnc stuff is in the links setion
[23:12:48] <pfred1> les you make these religious plaques with the CNC machines?
[23:12:59] <les> arg keyboard is worn out
[23:13:09] <pfred1> burp it!
[23:13:10] <les> yes that is made with emc
[23:13:17] <les> a good seller
[23:13:25] <pfred1> flip keyboard upside down and slap the junk out of it :)
[23:13:57] <pfred1> someone has to design a keyboard that doesn't collect hairballs etc.
[23:14:00] <les> I am beta testing a new keyboard product for a friend and it has some problems
[23:14:26] <pfred1> I saw this thing once hard to describe but it kinda laid out this laser pattern on a surface and you typed into that
[23:14:49] <les> hmmm
[23:15:00] <pfred1> yeah I thought it was novel
[23:15:26] <les> well this product had a wear problem that should be fixed now
[23:15:32] <paul_c> les: http://www.bitboost.com/pawsense/
[23:15:43] <pfred1> keyboards i just pick them up at the dumps
[23:15:48] <les> have a case of them here so I need to try the improved one
[23:16:00] <pfred1> catproof your computer :)
[23:16:31] <pfred1> les ever seen this?
[23:16:34] <paul_c> Doesn't run on Linux though..
[23:16:38] <les> haw
[23:16:49] <pfred1> ack! no Linux? junk!
[23:16:59] <pfred1> * pfred1 doesn't do Windows
[23:17:30] <les> I fear the cat typing detector would go off when I typed
[23:17:35] <pfred1> whenever i see people running the stuff today it I mean i don't know how they do it
[23:17:50] <pfred1> how or why
[23:18:01] <les> I have a windows box here in the office but linux elsewhere
[23:18:17] <pfred1> I guess if you're really careful about what you install
[23:18:54] <pfred1> yah I was into Linux long before I even knew about EMC it being Linux based was such a plus for me
[23:19:23] <les> I am no linux expert but I like it
[23:19:40] <pfred1> I'm no expert but I get whatever to work eventually
[23:20:12] <pfred1> for me Linux is consistant
[23:20:17] <les> I want to use RTLinux as a platform for factory automation
[23:20:30] <pfred1> it's maybe not great but it is what it is and I can count on it
[23:20:35] <les> Talking with Paul about that
[23:20:50] <pfred1> yeah I've done some reading about RTL
[23:21:02] <paul_c> * paul_c prefers RTAI
[23:21:10] <les> I am trying to sell the idea to the company that commissioned that car part I developed
[23:21:13] <pfred1> mostly with redording sound streams
[23:21:17] <pfred1> recording even
[23:21:33] <pfred1> yeah I wouldn't drive a car down the road that ran Windows!
[23:21:37] <pfred1> crash!
[23:21:45] <les> ha
[23:22:05] <paul_c> make a good defence in a hit'n'run
[23:22:19] <pfred1> your software license has expired all control functions will be cut off until you renew
[23:23:02] <les> Paul I am starting to work on those ITW guys about real time linux
[23:23:11] <pfred1> microsoft is done it's just a matter of time
[23:23:20] <pfred1> people WILL figure it out!
[23:23:22] <les> I need to get higher up the food chain though
[23:23:47] <les> best bet is to give a presentation when I am up there
[23:24:08] <pfred1> you know the only thing that keeps Microsoft alive is piracy right?
[23:24:09] <paul_c> I have a little job to cmplete for Ray, so I'm in no hurry
[23:24:22] <pfred1> they know it
[23:24:22] <les> linux factory automation is the way to go
[23:24:49] <les> pfred: 100% correct about the piracy
[23:24:49] <pfred1> they could install code in a patch tomorrow that'd disable every pirated copy of their software
[23:24:56] <les> it's engineered
[23:24:58] <pfred1> but they don't!
[23:25:06] <paul_c> les: Take a Live CD with you...
[23:25:16] <pfred1> SuSE!
[23:25:34] <paul_c> Morphix !!
[23:25:35] <les> yes...which one is best?
[23:25:47] <pfred1> SuSE is slick I mean it's got Novell and IBM behind it
[23:26:03] <paul_c> BDI-Lite should be fairly slick
[23:26:11] <pfred1> their distribution polocies are a little flaky but
[23:26:18] <paul_c> and you can get away with 128M RAM.
[23:26:51] <pfred1> personally i think SuSE is the stuff until IBM releases Blue Linux
[23:27:03] <les> ok
[23:27:15] <pfred1> when Blue hits it's going to be a whole new world
[23:27:27] <les> I really dread having to go up there
[23:27:33] <pfred1> people don't realize just how big IBM is
[23:27:48] <les> I think they want me to "reenlist"
[23:27:56] <pfred1> IBM makes more money than Microsoft before their morning cups of coffee
[23:27:59] <les> but I don't want to
[23:28:23] <pfred1> les reenlist? you in the service?
[23:28:52] <les> I think it's because on of my key patents expires in a couple years
[23:29:22] <les> ha...no...I resigned from a large corporation to start my own business
[23:29:56] <les> They want to get me back under contract
[23:30:06] <les> I think
[23:30:08] <pfred1> les from the looks of your website there I'd say you made the right decision
[23:30:15] <pfred1> yeah you can consult
[23:30:25] <pfred1> be an outside contractor
[23:30:36] <pfred1> then you're still your own man
[23:30:38] <les> I make less money now but get to do what I want
[23:30:57] <pfred1> when you consult and outside contract I'd imagine you could really rake them
[23:31:06] <pfred1> T&M!
[23:31:10] <les> I try to limit engineering to 50% of my time
[23:31:22] <les> make sawdust the rest of the time
[23:31:35] <pfred1> hey that's what i say when people ask me what i make
[23:31:47] <pfred1> I say I make dust everything else is just a byproduct of the dust making process
[23:31:59] <les> consulting does pay well...very well
[23:32:06] <les> but also big stress
[23:32:19] <pfred1> well it's the whole outside contracting angle I'd think you have to push
[23:32:35] <pfred1> that way you're still your own boss
[23:33:04] <pfred1> if they're desperate enough they'll go for it
[23:33:14] <les> things have been getting a little heavy with the contracting lately
[23:33:19] <les> working 7 days
[23:33:28] <les> I need a break
[23:33:37] <pfred1> bah
[23:34:06] <les> haha
[23:34:36] <pfred1> delegate or turn down the stuff you really don't want
[23:35:03] <les> I am way out in the woods here...no skilled workers
[23:35:12] <pfred1> it's when you can turn it away that you can really do well then you're in such high demand the price goes up!
[23:35:25] <les> I need sanders and can't find anyone
[23:35:34] <pfred1> cmon!
[23:35:42] <les> woodworking=75%+ sanding
[23:35:44] <pfred1> I could teach a monkey how to sand
[23:36:22] <pfred1> it's all in the low angle light
[23:36:36] <les> with emc sanding and finishing is about the only manual task left
[23:36:47] <pfred1> yeah they can't see yet
[23:36:52] <les> low angle light is important
[23:37:01] <pfred1> how about one of those drum sanders?
[23:37:09] <pfred1> they rip
[23:37:26] <les> wide belt...
[23:37:49] <pfred1> production uses those huge drum sanders i thought?
[23:37:56] <les> The sanding I need now is for a production run of turkey calls
[23:38:06] <pfred1> ah that'd be hand sanding?
[23:38:15] <les> carved from cherry by emc
[23:38:35] <pfred1> sounds like you need to setup a piece work deal
[23:38:43] <pfred1> they have these home piece work things
[23:38:46] <les> they are round so sanding is done on a lathe like mechanism
[23:38:53] <pfred1> ah
[23:39:16] <les> a special quick release chuck on a motorr/brake
[23:39:24] <les> motor
[23:39:54] <pfred1> this is turkey call season isn't it?
[23:40:14] <les> trying to get total carving time to under 60 seconds
[23:40:19] <les> yup...
[23:40:30] <les> www.dynamiccalls.com
[23:40:47] <les> I have been awarded all of their production
[23:40:52] <les> all with emc
[23:40:55] <pfred1> where I'm moving the general store up the road has every caliber ammunition right behind the counter
[23:41:11] <pfred1> some you can get in several manufacturers even!
[23:41:14] <les> pretty much the same here
[23:41:20] <pfred1> I love it!
[23:41:27] <les> where are you moving to?
[23:41:31] <pfred1> I got a deer stand right in the back yard
[23:41:34] <pfred1> delaware
[23:41:48] <pfred1> slower lower delaware
[23:41:53] <les> haha
[23:42:12] <les> I am in the blue ridge mountains
[23:42:16] <pfred1> right now I'm like 15 miles out of NYC
[23:42:26] <les> came down from Chicago
[23:42:29] <pfred1> I can't handle it anymore!
[23:42:37] <les> old family farm...
[23:42:41] <pfred1> I feel like I'm living up my neighbor's asses
[23:42:57] <les> I know the feeling
[23:43:09] <pfred1> yeah I didn't until a few years ago but now i do
[23:43:10] <les> big change from Chicago to here
[23:43:46] <pfred1> still where I'm going the house has some seclusion but it's not so removed from civilization for me
[23:44:23] <pfred1> I turned down thie one place I was standing in the front yard looking at the place saying to myself, "could I see myself living here?"
[23:44:40] <pfred1> and I thought and thought and listened to the crickets and said nope!
[23:44:44] <les> pretty secluded here...that picture on the web page is part of the front yard
[23:44:54] <pfred1> how many acres?
[23:45:03] <les> 55
[23:45:07] <pfred1> whoo
[23:45:13] <pfred1> yeah that's a farm
[23:45:31] <les> some is wooded mountain land
[23:45:39] <pfred1> I'm in farm country but it's a 3 acre plot
[23:45:48] <les> the rest pasture
[23:46:09] <les> and coming soon....2 hole golf course!
[23:46:11] <les> haha
[23:46:23] <pfred1> les if you have to sand turkey calls sounds to me like you're running behind
[23:46:41] <les> yup
[23:47:00] <pfred1> really sounds to me like you need to find some help I mean should you really be sanding turkey calls?
[23:47:09] <les> must get help before the december production run
[23:47:34] <pfred1> you can't just box those things up and ship them someplace?
[23:47:41] <les> The only thing I should be doing is g code and depositing checks
[23:48:26] <les> oh I could outsource...but I got the account based on the finish quality
[23:48:28] <pfred1> heck I wonder if you could tumble them?
[23:48:43] <pfred1> get like an old drier throw some sand in it and the calls let it rip
[23:49:06] <les> would be a little tough
[23:49:19] <les> a lot of it is between coats
[23:49:26] <pfred1> oh man
[23:49:42] <les> I put a premium finish on the things
[23:50:02] <pfred1> what's one of these turkey calls go for?
[23:50:34] <les> When I was offered the job after the qualification run I knew I would be in the wood rubbing business
[23:50:47] <les> about $55 MSRP
[23:50:56] <pfred1> well there's always a way to automate a process
[23:51:15] <les> I have thought about automated sanding
[23:51:27] <les> possible but difficult
[23:51:37] <pfred1> I know you don't have a lotta time but if you ever find yourself with a little google henery bessimer and find his biography on the net I found it very inspiring
[23:51:44] <les> because it requires a touch
[23:52:12] <pfred1> yeah finish is tricky it's an art
[23:52:21] <pfred1> what you use poly?
[23:52:24] <les> as in bessimer convertoer?
[23:52:33] <pfred1> yeah the guy who made modern life possible
[23:52:35] <les> convertor
[23:52:45] <pfred1> as in made a process for making tons of steel
[23:52:54] <pfred1> but that's not the only thing he did!
[23:52:58] <les> I am using uralkyd
[23:53:08] <pfred1> hmm urethane?
[23:53:17] <les> yes
[23:53:22] <pfred1> yeah it's nice
[23:53:26] <pfred1> I did a car in it once
[23:53:49] <les> polyisocyanate cross linked alkyd polyester
[23:53:59] <pfred1> I used Dupont
[23:54:06] <les> imron
[23:54:14] <pfred1> no i never use imron
[23:54:20] <les> did an airplane with it
[23:54:24] <pfred1> don't have pumped air
[23:54:35] <les> it is nasty stuff
[23:54:36] <pfred1> imron is bad stuff!
[23:54:57] <pfred1> you can spray a piece of aluminum foil with it crumple it up flatten it out it still there
[23:55:18] <pfred1> but it's an organic that can't be filtered
[23:55:29] <pfred1> make ya sign your name backwards!
[23:55:55] <les> we did the airplane in a hangar but used organic vapor masks
[23:56:02] <les> did not work so well
[23:56:08] <les> needed outside air
[23:56:16] <pfred1> nope you should use pumped for imron
[23:56:28] <pfred1> it's the worst stuff made by man!
[23:56:30] <les> yup
[23:56:34] <pfred1> it's like anthrax paint
[23:57:08] <les> ended up doing a wing holding my breath
[23:57:17] <pfred1> best car i did I used chromabase and urethane clear on it
[23:57:29] <pfred1> yeah holding your breath and running away screaming is always a good policy
[23:57:36] <les> haha
[23:57:56] <pfred1> did that once etching a garage floor for painting
[23:58:12] <pfred1> used hydrochloric acid on it I think?
[23:58:20] <pfred1> was like my lungs are melting!
[23:58:42] <pfred1> but hey the floor was clean!
[23:59:54] <les> i'll bet