Back
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[00:45:07] <PCW> Yes closed Dec 25,26, Jan 1
[00:48:24] <Tom_itx> any reason the 7I90 wouldn't be a drop in for the 7i43?
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[00:48:34] <Tom_itx> other than support for it in 2.5.x
[00:48:57] <Tom_itx> or will it work in 2.5.x?
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[01:02:40] <PCW> Needs 2.6
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[03:07:38] <cradek> I think what I want (accept all arcs that are rounded to .01 mm or .01 inch grid) is impossible
[03:09:00] <cradek> for any certain grid imagine a semicircle with endpoints 0,0 and 0,1. the center will end up being one of the endpoints, which is degenerate and no tolerance setting can let you accept it
[03:09:53] <cradek> which means you must either refuse some arcs with this property, or require a finer grid for the centers
[03:10:40] <cradek> I'm not sure I explained that in a way that makes sense
[03:15:39] <cradek> I sure don't understand this: 2 * Resolution * 2^-1 = 0.002828 (that's for Res = 0.001 inch)
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[03:16:22] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky must not have typed what he meant
[03:16:44] <cradek> uh above of course I meant .001 inch grid
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[04:36:45] <cmorley> seb_kuminsky: How did you package up glade 3.8.x for linuxcnc? there is another project that needs this same thing. I know nothing about packaging :)
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[04:51:55] <cradek> cmorley: you can apt-get source it, and look at whatever he did
[04:52:05] <cradek> he may have just found the right old version and built it
[04:53:36] <cmorley> Ya I looked at synaptic package manager and it seemed to indicate he might have got it from Ubuntu...
[05:01:19] <cradek> yeah looks like he didn't change it, just built it
[05:01:35] <cradek> glade-3 (3.8.0-0ubuntu6) raring; urgency=low
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[05:02:32] <cmorley> its all a bit greek to me but that's a start :) thanks.
[05:03:29] <cradek> sure, no problem
[05:03:46] <cradek> someone who knows packaging can do that zippity no problem
[05:04:01] <cradek> someone who doesn't know packaging maybe could just use ours?
[05:04:07] <cradek> not sure what you're up against
[05:05:01] <cmorley> I bet - there is resistance to keeping the old :) I will see what they say.
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[06:20:24] <pcw_home> http://ibin.co/1li1vC6KQ3SS
[06:20:25] <pcw_home> rather nasty velocity spike in new TP
[06:37:59] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: imagine the true start point is at 0.00049, and the true center is at 10.00050, and the CAMm is working with a resolution of 0.001, and rounding
[06:38:34] <seb_kuzminsky> start will get rounded to 0.000, center to 10.001
[06:39:08] <seb_kuzminsky> true radius is very nearly 10, rounded radius is 10.001
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[13:55:41] <micges-dev> pcw_home: paste gcode that caused that spike
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[14:03:24] <pcw_home> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/10-advanced-configuration/27368-new-trajectory-planner-testersprograms-wanted?start=190#54250
[14:04:29] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: where you wrote 2^-1 (= 1/2) did you mean something else?
[14:05:46] <pcw_home> I didn't see any errors until I ran it with his .ini file (with some minor mods so it would run here)
[14:13:36] <pcw_home> freeby.mesanet.com/fe.zip (hal, ini and gcode files for 7I76E that exhibit the bug)
[14:13:37] <pcw_home> sorry should have done a sim config but this was quick and dirty
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[14:36:45] <pcw_home> (ferror magnitude looks like ~450 in X)
[14:42:05] <pcw_home> single steppping throug the gcode works...
[14:42:19] <pcw_home> (no error)
[14:44:31] <skunkworks> must be realtime vs sim - I cannot get it to happen in sim.
[14:44:56] <skunkworks> hmm
[15:02:21] <cradek> that would be surprising and scary
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[15:51:40] <pcw_home> skunkworks: did you use his .ini file? (I dont get an error just with the gcode and my configs)
[15:58:41] <skunkworks> ok
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[15:58:58] <skunkworks> I only used the acc/vel settings
[15:59:13] <skunkworks> maybe it is a 2 axis thing?
[16:12:21] <pcw_home> maybe
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[16:42:32] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: oops
[16:42:39] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah i totally meant something else
[16:42:58] <seb_kuzminsky> 2^(1/2)
[16:43:01] <seb_kuzminsky> sqrt(2)
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[16:43:11] <cradek> oh ok
[16:43:24] <cradek> it felt like a sqrt2 should be in there somewhere because of ... squares
[16:43:52] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah
[16:44:33] <cradek> so anyway, I wonder what our goal is, and then I wonder how we should accomplish it
[16:46:01] <seb_kuzminsky> if there's a true path in a drawing, and cam reads the drawing and write gcode with all the coordinates rounded to the nearest 0.001, then the largest-magnitude move of a point from its true location to its rounded location would be from (0.000499, 0.000499) to (0.000, 0.000), or from 0.000501, 0.000501) to (0.001, 0.001)
[16:47:06] <cradek> for 2d I agree with that
[16:47:32] <cradek> and I think we just can consider the 2d case for the arc radii problem
[16:47:33] <seb_kuzminsky> the magnitude of that move is sqrt(0.5^2 + 0.5^2), which is sqrt(2)/2
[16:47:37] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah
[16:49:59] <seb_kuzminsky> so the worst-case arc radius error is one endpoint and the center moving together (making the radius change by sqrt(2)), and the other endpoint and the center moving apart, making another sqrt(2)
[16:50:01] <cradek> so each radii can be off by sqrt(2)
[16:50:08] <seb_kuzminsky> thus 2 * sqrt(2) * Resolution
[16:50:10] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah
[16:50:20] <cradek> I agree with your derivation
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[16:52:12] <cradek> but I still am not sure what to do with some of the arcs that you get when you round or truncate the three points onto a grid
[16:52:37] <seb_kuzminsky> some of them end up with zero entry radius or exit radius (or both)
[16:52:46] <seb_kuzminsky> are those the ones you're unsure about?
[16:53:03] <cradek> yes those are the simplest/first examples I can picture
[16:53:29] <seb_kuzminsky> for the record, i'm also unsure that 0.002828 is a reasonable arc radius error
[16:53:41] <cradek> we could make them into semicircles? make them into lines?
[16:54:35] <seb_kuzminsky> lines sounds reasonable
[16:54:44] <seb_kuzminsky> you need to finish at the endpoint, even if it's silly
[16:54:57] <seb_kuzminsky> making a semicircle would require you to move the centerpoint?
[16:55:06] <cradek> I think you have arc direction and a guess at radius (mean of the two given radii) and that gives you a semicircle
[16:56:43] <seb_kuzminsky> in that situation you'd move the end point of the arc? away from the incorrectly specified centerpoint
[16:57:03] <cradek> no, I think you must always leave the endpoint
[16:58:26] <seb_kuzminsky> you'd leave the start point and the end point, and make a half circle between them, with radius = 1/2 of the entry radius?
[16:58:28] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm confused
[16:58:56] <cradek> so (assume grid precision of 1) if you start at 0,0 and give g3 x1 y0 i1 j0, you'd actually run the arc with center i0.5 (not on the grid)
[16:59:27] <cradek> because 0.5 is the mean of 1 and 0 (the two given radii)
[17:00:15] <seb_kuzminsky> yes, ok, i see
[17:00:27] <cradek> I think the R-format code actually does this kind of thing already
[17:00:28] <seb_kuzminsky> that's a clearer way of saying what i tried to say above with r=1/2 entry radius
[17:01:59] <cradek> I'm having a terrible time trying to picture all the cases we'd have to consider and choose what arc to give
[17:03:02] <seb_kuzminsky> and we'd have to decide if 0.002828 is an acceptable default arc radius slop tolerance
[17:03:09] <seb_kuzminsky> gtg bbl
[17:03:43] <cradek> I don't think this is a question of tolerance, it's a question of what SHAPE to give in response to sloppy input
[17:04:12] <cradek> as you allow more slop, you will see weirder shapes
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[17:09:19] <cradek> I think it would be great if we could actually give the spiral the gcode asks for in slightly sloppy cases
[17:09:26] <cradek> I'm not sure if that is still possible
[17:10:10] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah that would be cool
[17:11:54] <cradek> but still two problems: you need a tolerance for "whoah your cam is nuts or you don't understand arcs", and some are still degenerate, like one radius is 0
[17:13:04] <cradek> it seems like the only other option is to circularlize the arc in one of various ways
[17:13:58] <cradek> I think the new planner already tries to do this (from code inspection only) but I think it doesn't work right (from experimenting with a wide tolerance)
[17:14:25] <cradek> I know the old planner made the spirals
[17:14:50] <seb_kuzminsky> but you tried the new planner and you're not sure what shape it makes?
[17:15:53] <cradek> yes
[17:16:23] <cradek> old planner, (endpoint offset?) bug showing spiral:
http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/thats-no-arc.png
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[17:17:18] <cradek> I think we need rob's help to be smart about this
[17:18:12] <seb_kuzminsky> not sure what i'm looking at in that screenshot
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[17:18:38] <cradek> the big pink line is a spiral that accidentally got through the earlier layers
[17:18:44] <cradek> it's an aside - forget it
[17:19:23] <seb_kuzminsky> oh
[17:19:24] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[17:23:46] <seb_kuzminsky> i think you're right that we need to know what rob's planner does with spiral arcs
[17:24:26] <seb_kuzminsky> i just verified that increasing the arc radius tolerance to that number we talked about, 0.002828, makes the jer10b.ngc program from the forum run without trouble
[17:24:35] <cradek> do you think before we bother him we should figure out what we would like it to do?
[17:24:39] <seb_kuzminsky> http://pastie.org/9797528
[17:24:56] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah
[17:25:17] <seb_kuzminsky> we should know what we want it to do, and ideally have a test that verifies that it does that thing
[17:25:28] <cradek> loading and running the gcode without apparent trouble is necessary but not sufficient
[17:25:50] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah...
[17:25:51] <cradek> spirals might cause constraint violation in blend arcs, for instance
[17:26:31] <cradek> in fact I think I heard they did earlier (most arcs are a little bit spirally), and there's an existing workaround for it
[17:29:05] <cradek> see findSpiralApproximation()
[17:29:43] <cradek> but I am not sure it works right
[17:32:01] <cradek> hmm, it didn't get run when I mdi'd my test spiral
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[17:35:41] <seb_kuzminsky> here's what i got:
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/2.7-arc.png
[17:35:50] <seb_kuzminsky> the grid's 0.001
[17:36:18] <seb_kuzminsky> abs_err = sqrt(2) * 0.001
[17:36:25] <seb_kuzminsky> lemme try twice that
[17:38:03] <seb_kuzminsky> http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/2.7-arc-big-r-err.png
[17:38:40] <seb_kuzminsky> the bigger spiral thingy has an entry radius of 3 and an exit radius of 1 (times 0.001)
[17:38:49] <seb_kuzminsky> oh wait, so it's not maximally bad, hold on
[17:39:24] <cradek> maybe one spiral gets run as a spiral, but the circularization is something blending does? (guessing)
[17:42:56] <seb_kuzminsky> ok here:
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/2.7-arc-max-r-err.png
[17:43:00] <seb_kuzminsky> now i really gotta run
[17:43:02] <seb_kuzminsky> bye!
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[19:31:35] <cradek> that's pretty spiralley
[19:53:35] <Tom_itx> what causes that?
[19:53:44] <Tom_itx> tolerance error?
[19:54:19] <cradek> days and days of conversation that I don't want to summarize :-)
[19:54:27] <Tom_itx> np
[19:54:34] <Tom_itx> i followed some of it
[19:55:21] <cradek> I guess the summary is ijk arcs are overspecified so it's easy to get invalid ones - so which ones are really invalid and what to do about it all
[20:10:14] <CaptHindsight> http://linuxgizmos.com/orange-pi-sbc-tempts-raspberry-pi-clone-fans/ another Rpi with an A20 and GB ethernet $50
[20:10:53] <CaptHindsight> still need to try hm2_eth on one
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[20:53:00] <seb_kuzminsky> http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/wonky-arc-preview.png
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[20:56:10] <cradek> yeah, that was on purpose
[20:56:46] <cradek> so motion is giving you the real spirals?
[20:57:07] <cradek> I wonder if you're getting arc blends (and if so, whether they're right)
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[21:19:39] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, the motion output looks right (not sure if they're blended)
[21:22:54] <seb_kuzminsky> they're blended:
http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/wonky-arc-preview-blended.png
[21:23:05] <seb_kuzminsky> (i had to turn accel down & feedrate up to see it)
[21:23:39] <cradek> I wonder if those are circular blends or old-planner blends
[21:23:56] <cradek> it does look tangent
[21:24:32] <cradek> you might want to put some long lines before and after these moves?
[21:24:36] * cradek waves his hands
[21:27:56] <seb_kuzminsky> http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/wonky-arc-preview-blended-with-lines.png
[21:27:59] * seb_kuzminsky shrugs
[21:28:02] <seb_kuzminsky> bbl
[21:31:07] <cradek> pretty
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[21:45:35] <tjtr33> hello, Merry Christmas & thx to all the devs and hard working testers of LinuxCNC. best wishes to all for the new year. you're amazing!
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[21:48:02] <PetefromTn_> Ditto here a heartfelt THANK YOU for all you guys do to make LinuxCNC work so well and continue to be developed into the powerful package that it is today.
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[23:27:30] <skunkworks> wow - I have no clue what I am looking at
[23:27:44] <skunkworks> andd merry christmas!
[23:28:01] <skunkworks> (no I have not started drinking yet_)
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